1
00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:11,480
'John Howlett and Stephen Sinclair.

2
00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,599
'He's also accused of attempting
to murder Douglas Stewart

3
00:00:14,639 --> 00:00:16,120
'and Paul Knobbs.'

4
00:00:17,759 --> 00:00:19,919
As each of the
eight charges were read out,

5
00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:22,599
the defendant was asked,
"How say you, Nilson?

6
00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,560
"Are you guilty or not guilty?"

7
00:00:24,599 --> 00:00:28,800
'Eight times, in a firm voice,
he replied, "Not guilty." '

8
00:00:28,839 --> 00:00:31,679
'But is Nilson guilty of murder,

9
00:00:31,719 --> 00:00:34,320
'or is he guilty
only of manslaughter?'

10
00:00:47,759 --> 00:00:49,560
I don't understand.

11
00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:50,840
Well, it's quite simple.

12
00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,439
Having spoken to my solicitors,
my barrister, um...

13
00:00:55,479 --> 00:00:58,399
learned people
from the psychology profession,

14
00:00:58,439 --> 00:00:59,679
I'm not sure if I am guilty.

15
00:00:59,719 --> 00:01:02,200
But on-on what grounds?

16
00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:03,880
In all the months
that we've been talking

17
00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,240
you've not mentioned
a plea of insanity once.

18
00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,719
Not insanity, no.
Diminished responsibility.

19
00:01:08,759 --> 00:01:10,320
But am I mad? I don't know.

20
00:01:10,359 --> 00:01:14,640
Madness, as Quixote said,
"Madness is seeing life as it is,

21
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,400
"and not as it should be."

22
00:01:16,439 --> 00:01:18,920
You murdered those men, Des.

23
00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:20,480
And you knew what you were doing.

24
00:01:20,519 --> 00:01:24,079
Did I?
I don't deny taking their lives.

25
00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,799
I must wear the label of a killer,
and maybe I should be hanged for it.

26
00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,439
But I didn't plan them. Never.

27
00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,200
I took them home
with much purer intentions.

28
00:01:32,239 --> 00:01:34,079
Then I'd wake up
and they'd be sat there, dead.

29
00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,480
Now, no-one feels the weight
of that more than me.

30
00:01:36,519 --> 00:01:41,959
But the power of responsibility,
at that time, was nil.

31
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,200
I-I look in the mirror,
and I see me, yeah?

32
00:01:46,239 --> 00:01:50,599
Just me. It's friendly, helpful,
responsible me. Just that.

33
00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,799
If this was true,
then why didn't you go to the police

34
00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:54,280
after the first time it happened?

35
00:01:54,319 --> 00:01:56,840
Don't you think
I contemplated that, Brian? Eh?

36
00:01:56,879 --> 00:02:00,319
Don't you think I wanted
to hand myself in, or end it all?

37
00:02:00,359 --> 00:02:01,879
Y'know? But then...

38
00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,840
survival and shame and the future

39
00:02:05,879 --> 00:02:08,439
makes you promise yourself
it'll never happen again...

40
00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,400
till it does.

41
00:02:12,719 --> 00:02:15,560
But yeah, I mean...

42
00:02:15,599 --> 00:02:18,840
had it not been for the dog,
I may well have surrendered myself.

43
00:02:18,879 --> 00:02:21,479
All I know is I don't know,

44
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,439
and thus, a jury needs to decide.

45
00:02:24,479 --> 00:02:29,840
The press will be allowed to publish
every word spoken in court.

46
00:02:29,879 --> 00:02:34,039
Every single detail exposed.

47
00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:35,800
Is that not what you're doing?

48
00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,120
Well, I'm not exploiting these young
men's tragedies to sell newspapers.

49
00:02:40,159 --> 00:02:42,360
No, you're just exploiting me.

50
00:02:45,319 --> 00:02:47,919
I hope you know me better than that.

51
00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,520
I just want to get to the truth.

52
00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:53,520
Don't you?

53
00:03:05,879 --> 00:03:07,199
KNOCK AT DOOR

54
00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,639
Peter, you know Mr Green, QC.
Allan, please.

55
00:03:12,719 --> 00:03:14,680
I hear he's got
the Krays' brief?

56
00:03:14,719 --> 00:03:16,199
And Ivan Lawrence as QC.

57
00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,000
It's a formidable defence team,
to say the least.

58
00:03:19,039 --> 00:03:21,879
Please, take a seat.

59
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,159
I take it their angle's
diminished responsibility?

60
00:03:25,199 --> 00:03:28,479
Didn't wash with Sutcliffe.
The jury won't buy it.

61
00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,919
Sutcliffe didn't watch TV
with the bodies.

62
00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:32,680
Nilsen's not insane.

63
00:03:32,719 --> 00:03:34,039
They don't have to prove that.

64
00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:35,599
All they have to do

65
00:03:35,639 --> 00:03:37,960
is show that he was suffering
some abnormality of mind

66
00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,439
and therefore not fully
responsible for what he was doing.

67
00:03:40,479 --> 00:03:43,240
We, on the other hand,
have to prove that these crimes

68
00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,759
were carefully planned
and premeditated.

69
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,439
Surely his confessions do that.

70
00:03:48,479 --> 00:03:50,759
I'm afraid the confessions
only take us so far.

71
00:03:51,919 --> 00:03:53,120
What do you mean?

72
00:03:53,159 --> 00:03:55,159
He gave you a lot of answers
which prove what he did,

73
00:03:55,199 --> 00:03:58,199
but not what mind
he was in when he did it.

74
00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,000
He gave you exactly
what he wanted to.

75
00:04:00,039 --> 00:04:02,919
You hardly asked him
any probing questions

76
00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:04,479
about what was on his mind.

77
00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,039
Hold on. We didn't want him
to suddenly stop talking.

78
00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,719
We needed to identify 15 people.

79
00:04:09,759 --> 00:04:12,960
I understand that, but the effect
was he gave you a lot of details

80
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,159
that aren't going
to help us convict him.

81
00:04:16,199 --> 00:04:18,759
I'm sorry,
are you saying he planned this?

82
00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,759
We'll never know. But if all
we have are the confessions,

83
00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,360
then that's not going to be enough.

84
00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,720
We need more. Much more.

85
00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,199
We should have pushed for motive.

86
00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,680
Don't listen to Green.

87
00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,560
Everybody always thinks they're
a better copper than a copper.

88
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,360
If he'd have stopped talking

89
00:04:49,399 --> 00:04:52,680
there's no way we'd have
found the people we did.

90
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,680
Listen, they're just looking
for someone to blame

91
00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,160
if this all goes pear-shaped.

92
00:05:00,199 --> 00:05:02,959
But we're gonna make
damned sure that doesn't happen.

93
00:05:04,399 --> 00:05:06,040
Yeah.

94
00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:09,800
See you tomorrow.

95
00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:26,600
Thanks for meeting me.

96
00:05:26,639 --> 00:05:29,040
Please, take a seat.

97
00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:33,120
I almost didn't come.

98
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,800
But you did.

99
00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:37,519
Cos you know this is wrong.

100
00:05:41,199 --> 00:05:46,480
I take it he's written to you over
the past few months? Oh, he has.

101
00:05:46,519 --> 00:05:48,000
How much?

102
00:05:49,759 --> 00:05:51,959
52 exercise books' worth.

103
00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,160
We're gonna need
to take a look at them.

104
00:05:54,199 --> 00:05:56,920
That could be useful
to prove premeditation. Mr Jay...

105
00:05:56,959 --> 00:05:59,160
All that matters is that
we find as much evidence as we can

106
00:05:59,199 --> 00:06:00,480
that Nilsen was in his right mind.

107
00:06:00,519 --> 00:06:02,079
What if he's insane?

108
00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:03,600
You think he's insane?

109
00:06:03,639 --> 00:06:05,759
Well, it's not for me to decide.

110
00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,879
He's not mad.
He knew what he was doing was wrong.

111
00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:10,439
Well, I don't deny that.

112
00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,319
But at the same time,

113
00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,720
he was able to take
the head of someone he'd known,

114
00:06:16,759 --> 00:06:20,600
the severed head,
into a cooking pot on the stove,

115
00:06:20,639 --> 00:06:22,319
and let it simmer overnight.

116
00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:27,199
And then the next morning he was
able to pour himself a cup of coffee

117
00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,959
and butter a slice of toast,
whilst turning up the heat

118
00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:32,920
to make sure that the head
was boiling properly.

119
00:06:32,959 --> 00:06:36,040
Now that is completely mad.

120
00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,279
I mean...

121
00:06:39,319 --> 00:06:41,879
He's really done a number
on you, hasn't he?

122
00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,959
You mistake me, Mr Jay.

123
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,680
He's not my friend.
I know who he is.

124
00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:50,800
Do you?

125
00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,879
Right, well,
if there's nothing else...

126
00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,959
Listen, if he can convince a jury
that he was out of his mind somehow,

127
00:06:58,000 --> 00:06:59,480
then he only gets manslaughter.

128
00:06:59,519 --> 00:07:02,439
He goes to a hospital and then
in 15 years he's deemed cured,

129
00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,120
and he's back out on the streets.

130
00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,560
Is that justice for the victims
and their families?

131
00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,439
If that happens...

132
00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,639
..can you live with yourself?

133
00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:17,639
Because I know I can't.

134
00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,000
I'll drop the exercise books off
at the station.

135
00:07:39,959 --> 00:07:41,439
'But we have a murder weapon.'

136
00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,720
A tie attached to a knotted rope.

137
00:07:43,759 --> 00:07:46,000
Seems pretty pre-emptive to me.

138
00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:47,879
OK, good. What else?

139
00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:49,319
We've got Duffey's knives.

140
00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:50,879
Nilsen let them rust
in his back garden

141
00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:52,639
so they could never
be traced back to Martyn.

142
00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,240
That shows knowledge of wrongdoing,
therefore criminally sane.

143
00:07:56,279 --> 00:07:58,079
That's a stretch.

144
00:07:58,120 --> 00:07:59,959
What about these books from Masters?

145
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,800
Surely there's got to be something
in here.

146
00:08:01,839 --> 00:08:03,800
The tragedy of the monochrome man?

147
00:08:03,839 --> 00:08:05,800
I mean,
most of it's rambling nonsense.

148
00:08:05,839 --> 00:08:07,800
They help the defence if anything.

149
00:08:07,839 --> 00:08:09,480
What about Douglas Stewart?

150
00:08:09,519 --> 00:08:12,560
The press'll have a field day
with what happened to Stewart.

151
00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,319
Oh! Police embarrassment is hardly
relevant now. We have to use him.

152
00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,560
What else?

153
00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,079
What about the Soho Project?

154
00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:21,920
What about it?

155
00:08:21,959 --> 00:08:23,120
A woman called.

156
00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,360
Thinks someone in her therapy group
could be a possible victim...

157
00:08:27,399 --> 00:08:29,680
but I thought we weren't
looking for them any more.

158
00:08:31,519 --> 00:08:34,680
OK, Steve and I will follow that up.

159
00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,519
Is that our lot?

160
00:08:36,560 --> 00:08:40,560
Paul Knobbs,
in his statement, says...

161
00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,799
VOICES FADE

162
00:08:50,039 --> 00:08:51,399
Sorry to have called.

163
00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,679
It's just he's been having
this recurring dream,

164
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,440
but actually,
I think he's been attacked.  OK.

165
00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,159
I hope I'm not wasting your time.

166
00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,799
Is it all right
if we have a word with him?

167
00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,720
Go easy on him, OK?

168
00:09:06,759 --> 00:09:09,919
Of course. What's his name?

169
00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:11,440
Carl.

170
00:09:12,519 --> 00:09:14,480
All right.

171
00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:18,279
'I'm in a dark room.'

172
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,879
I don't know where, and...

173
00:09:20,919 --> 00:09:25,240
there's music but it's calm.

174
00:09:25,279 --> 00:09:29,440
And then... this man appears.

175
00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,039
And I can't see his face,

176
00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,039
but he's very close to me.

177
00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:41,440
Um... But I'm not afraid,
because... I'm warm.

178
00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,279
I'm wrapped up
in some kind of sleeping bag.

179
00:09:47,919 --> 00:09:52,799
And then, all of a sudden,
I feel something around my neck...

180
00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,559
um...digging into my throat,
and-and choking me.

181
00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,440
And I can hear him saying,
"Just stay still".

182
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,279
And then everything goes dark.

183
00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:10,200
But then, after a while,
I feel... something on my face,

184
00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,519
like... sort of like
a dog licking me or something.

185
00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,080
Can you remember what breed?

186
00:10:18,159 --> 00:10:21,159
Um... No.

187
00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,320
Carl?

188
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:30,559
Have you seen this man?

189
00:10:33,279 --> 00:10:37,519
Yeah, yeah, on the news.
His name is Dennis Nilsen.

190
00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,120
He killed 15 young men
and attempted to kill seven others.

191
00:10:42,159 --> 00:10:44,759
All of these men were strangled.

192
00:10:44,799 --> 00:10:47,480
Mostly with a tie
or a headphone cord.

193
00:10:47,519 --> 00:10:50,799
But one, he tried to kill
with a sleeping bag.

194
00:10:52,639 --> 00:10:53,919
No...

195
00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:00,559
..um... cos the man in my dream
keeps telling me

196
00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,960
not to get caught up in the zip.

197
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,279
He also said he
attempted to drown him

198
00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,440
before resuscitating him.

199
00:11:19,399 --> 00:11:21,679
I've never told
anyone about the water.

200
00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,120
Do you remember the water?

201
00:11:24,159 --> 00:11:25,960
Yeah.

202
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,919
Um...

203
00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:29,799
It was cold water,

204
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,039
and I was being held down.

205
00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,440
Where? In a bath or a sink?

206
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,000
I don't understand. Are you...

207
00:11:40,799 --> 00:11:44,720
Are you telling me that
this actually happened?  Yes.

208
00:11:44,759 --> 00:11:48,320
I think you're one
of Nilsen's attempted victims.

209
00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,519
Because everything
that you are telling us

210
00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:52,679
aligns to what he told us.

211
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,320
Can you remember where you met him
or anything about where he lived?

212
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,360
Well, no...  You said he warned you
about the sleeping bag.

213
00:11:59,399 --> 00:12:02,000
What did he say exactly?
I don't know.

214
00:12:02,039 --> 00:12:03,320
When he warned you about the zip,

215
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,159
it shows he was planning it
way before he did it

216
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,399
so I need you to be clear. Come on.

217
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,600
Just try to remember.
I don't wanna do this any more.

218
00:12:09,639 --> 00:12:11,519
Look, you have to.
I know this is tough,

219
00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:13,279
but we need all the details.
Detective.

220
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,720
Just think. Detective,
he's told you he's had enough.

221
00:12:15,759 --> 00:12:18,720
I'm aware of that,
but I'm-I'm just trying... Peter.

222
00:12:24,039 --> 00:12:25,080
'We can't use him.'

223
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,240
He won't survive cross-examination.

224
00:12:27,279 --> 00:12:30,200
You saw him in there.
They'll destroy him.

225
00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,240
I'll come back in a couple of days,

226
00:12:33,279 --> 00:12:35,000
see if I can get
a statement from him

227
00:12:35,039 --> 00:12:36,480
and we can read that out in court,

228
00:12:36,519 --> 00:12:38,200
if we need to.

229
00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:39,279
Peter...

230
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,080
we have enough.

231
00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,080
He led us to the bodies,
for fuck's sake.

232
00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,159
For the first day of this,
the trial of Dennis Nilsen,

233
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,159
the unassuming civil servant
who's charged with crimes

234
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,240
that have shocked
and sickened the nation.

235
00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:04,679
Nilsen is charged with six murders
and two attempted murders.

236
00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,480
Details of a recently identified
seventh victim, Graham Allen,

237
00:13:08,519 --> 00:13:10,679
a heroin addict and petty criminal,

238
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,759
will not be featured
on the indictment.

239
00:13:13,799 --> 00:13:16,159
CROWD SHOUTING
Masters!

240
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,399
What's it like being friends
with a serial killer?

241
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,600
What's it like rubbing shoulders
with a murderer, Masters?

242
00:13:22,639 --> 00:13:25,639
SHOUTING OVER EACH OTHER

243
00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,559
What's it like being friends
with a serial killer?

244
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,039
Steve.

245
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,240
You all right? Good.

246
00:13:54,279 --> 00:13:56,919
Sleep OK?
No. I never do.

247
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,080
Oh, here he is.
Brian Masters -

248
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,480
biographer to the
murderer of the century.

249
00:14:13,519 --> 00:14:15,240
Did you see the press outside?

250
00:14:15,279 --> 00:14:17,519
Jesus,
they'll have headlines for weeks.

251
00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,399
Revelling in the case, like carrion.

252
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,759
One of the papers today
had the headline

253
00:14:21,799 --> 00:14:23,919
"House Of Horrors - The Trial."

254
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:25,840
The only "house of horrors"
I've ever seen

255
00:14:25,879 --> 00:14:27,279
is Number Ten Downing Street.

256
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,120
They mention you an' all.
Yes, I saw.

257
00:14:30,159 --> 00:14:33,960
Yeah? How do you feel, being talked
about in a national newspaper?

258
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,840
You wanted to see me?

259
00:14:36,879 --> 00:14:39,320
Aye. They've brought me
my suit, but no tie.

260
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,480
Come on, let me borrow yours.

261
00:14:44,159 --> 00:14:45,960
Right.

262
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,240
I know it's an ask,
but an open-necked shirt

263
00:14:48,279 --> 00:14:51,159
isn't the kind of impression
I want to give out

264
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:52,759
on the first day of the trial.

265
00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:57,840
Right. I'll leave it with the guard.

266
00:14:57,879 --> 00:14:59,759
My saviour.

267
00:14:59,799 --> 00:15:01,679
I started out with 15 ties,

268
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,639
but now the police
have them all in evidence.

269
00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,759
You, the members of the jury,
will be asked

270
00:15:09,799 --> 00:15:13,200
to ascertain this man's state
of mind at the time of the killings

271
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,440
and to decide, as a result,

272
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:20,399
if he is guilty of the murder
of six innocent young men,

273
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,080
or merely of their manslaughter.

274
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,840
That Mr Nilsen killed these men
is not contested by the defence.

275
00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:29,720
They will argue, however,

276
00:15:29,759 --> 00:15:33,240
that he was out of his mind
when he committed his crimes,

277
00:15:33,279 --> 00:15:36,559
and that he cannot
be held truly accountable.

278
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:41,120
But I intend to prove that Mr Nilsen
not only knew what he was doing,

279
00:15:41,159 --> 00:15:45,679
but that these crimes were
premeditated and carefully planned.

280
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,120
He lured 15 innocent young men

281
00:15:49,159 --> 00:15:51,480
back to his home,

282
00:15:51,519 --> 00:15:54,840
before cruelly murdering them.

283
00:15:54,879 --> 00:15:57,360
Mr Nilsen is no madman.

284
00:15:57,399 --> 00:16:00,039
He is intelligent and rational,

285
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,159
possessing the skills
to conceal his crimes,

286
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,759
and manipulate those around him.

287
00:16:06,799 --> 00:16:12,440
He is, in short, an experienced
and calculating killer.

288
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,919
I have spent a total of 14 hours
with Dennis Nilsen,

289
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,120
on 16 separate occasions
since his arrest.

290
00:16:20,159 --> 00:16:22,960
You are a forensic psychiatrist,
Dr Hardy?  Correct.

291
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,720
Could you share with the court
the clinical evaluation

292
00:16:25,759 --> 00:16:27,919
you made of the defendant
during these many meetings?

293
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,639
Did you find, for example,
any evidence of mental abnormality?

294
00:16:31,679 --> 00:16:33,919
Quite the reverse.
I formed the impression very quickly

295
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:35,559
that he was
a highly intelligent man.

296
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,879
In my view, Nilsen possesses
an extremely rational mind.

297
00:16:39,919 --> 00:16:42,039
He is capable of feeling very deeply

298
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,559
and concealing these feelings
in order to preserve appearances.

299
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,480
Thank you. No further questions,
my Lord.

300
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,240
Dennis Nilsen killed
perhaps 15 young men,

301
00:16:54,279 --> 00:16:57,279
for no apparent reason.

302
00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,919
He kept their bodies,
bathed and dressed them,

303
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:01,720
watched television programmes
with them,

304
00:17:01,759 --> 00:17:04,840
conversed with them
about those programmes.

305
00:17:04,879 --> 00:17:09,399
You say you find no evidence
of mental disturbance.

306
00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,400
Of course strangling people
is not normal behaviour.

307
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,799
While Nilsen was on remand,

308
00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:20,720
he made a series of protests
and complaints

309
00:17:20,759 --> 00:17:24,319
about his treatment
in Her Majesty's Prison Herne Hill.

310
00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:29,640
Would you not agree that this shows
markedly paranoid tendencies?

311
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,839
Perhaps. In some cases.

312
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,200
And in this case, in fact,
his behaviour became so extreme,

313
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:41,640
so erratic, that he was recently
put down as a suicide risk.

314
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:43,279
Could you tell us, Dr Hardy,

315
00:17:43,319 --> 00:17:46,400
who the psychiatrist was
who recommended this step?

316
00:17:47,839 --> 00:17:48,880
I did.

317
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:50,599
So, would you not agree

318
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,200
that someone at risk of suicide
is, by definition,

319
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,480
suffering a mental disorder?

320
00:17:57,519 --> 00:18:01,839
I suppose, in strict terms,
that is true.

321
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,319
Thank you.
No further questions, my Lord.

322
00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:27,680
Miss Mead?

323
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,240
They're using
what happened to Graham,

324
00:18:31,279 --> 00:18:33,519
making it all public,

325
00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:36,599
but he doesn't get justice?

326
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,839
I know.

327
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,400
Look, there are certain details
about his case that can...

328
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,000
You didn't give a shit about him

329
00:18:44,039 --> 00:18:45,920
when you thought
he was just a junkie who OD'd

330
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,079
in a squat or a bedsit somewhere.

331
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,720
But now, you're gonna
bring up every little detail.

332
00:18:54,599 --> 00:18:56,119
I'm sorry.

333
00:18:58,759 --> 00:19:00,480
No, you're not.

334
00:19:02,039 --> 00:19:04,680
Do you have any fucking idea
what you've put me through?

335
00:19:06,279 --> 00:19:08,440
And he won't even get justice?

336
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,160
All you lot care about

337
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,640
is you're the people
that caught Dennis Nilsen.

338
00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:24,440
Peter. We're back in.

339
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:38,079
'So, Mr Stewart,'

340
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,119
after meeting him
in the Golden Lion,

341
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,319
Mr Nilsen suggested that you
both go back to his residence

342
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,599
to continue drinking?
That's right.

343
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,640
195 Melrose Avenue.
I remember it very clearly.

344
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,440
And what happened next?
We had a couple more pints.

345
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,720
He offered me vodka
but I said, "It's not my drink".

346
00:19:55,759 --> 00:19:59,640
Then he asked me
to go to bed with him.

347
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,640
I said that wasn't my thing either.

348
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,799
So I fell asleep on the sofa.

349
00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:08,119
I woke up,
must have been a few hours later,

350
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,839
and my ankles were tied together
with a tie.

351
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,920
Nilsen was kneeling on my chest,
trying to strangle me.

352
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,279
But I fought him off.

353
00:20:16,319 --> 00:20:18,200
I wasn't going down
without a fight.

354
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,039
How did he respond to that?

355
00:20:21,079 --> 00:20:23,440
He started shouting,
"Take my money, take my money!"

356
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:24,799
Really loud, like.

357
00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:34,640
But you weren't stealing from him?

358
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,960
Seemed like he was trying
to make the neighbours think

359
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,960
he was being attacked himself.

360
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,240
He was trying to create an alibi.

361
00:20:41,279 --> 00:20:44,279
Hardly the act
of a man out of his mind.

362
00:20:44,319 --> 00:20:46,640
Thank you, Mr Stewart.
No further questions, my Lord.

363
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:51,839
In your police statement,
Mr Stewart,

364
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,519
you said you stayed
for another drink with Nilsen.

365
00:20:55,559 --> 00:20:59,160
Another drink, after he
allegedly tried to kill you?

366
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,920
Well, I thought that was
the best way to calm him down.

367
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,079
I see.

368
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:04,640
You mentioned earlier

369
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,720
that you remembered seeing
the address as 195 Melrose Avenue.

370
00:21:08,759 --> 00:21:11,400
How did you remember
the address so clearly?

371
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,440
I saw the number on the door.

372
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,720
You also told us that
when you met him in the pub

373
00:21:16,759 --> 00:21:19,079
the defendant introduced himself
to you as Dennis.

374
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,200
Yeah.
And that when you got to his house

375
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,240
to continue your drinking session
together, he offered you vodka.

376
00:21:25,279 --> 00:21:26,559
That's right.

377
00:21:26,599 --> 00:21:30,039
Unfortunately, none of these
things are true, are they?

378
00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:32,359
The defendant's
first name may be Dennis

379
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,200
but he always calls himself Des.

380
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,039
He always drinks rum, not vodka,

381
00:21:39,079 --> 00:21:41,920
and there is no number plate
on the house at Melrose Avenue.

382
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:43,519
There never has been.

383
00:21:43,559 --> 00:21:45,960
I dunno, I thought there was.

384
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,279
Mm, but you seemed
so sure of the details before.

385
00:21:49,319 --> 00:21:50,680
And why might that be?

386
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:55,119
Why might someone go to the trouble
of furnishing their testimony

387
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,279
with a great deal of specific detail

388
00:21:58,319 --> 00:22:01,519
that seems to be
pulled from thin air?

389
00:22:01,559 --> 00:22:04,000
I put it to you, Mr Stewart,
that your testimony to this court

390
00:22:04,039 --> 00:22:06,000
is nothing more than a pack of lies,

391
00:22:06,039 --> 00:22:08,960
dreamt up to satisfy
a tabloid newspaper.

392
00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:14,160
Well, Mr Stewart?

393
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,599
Have you sold your story?

394
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,680
Er... Y... Yes.

395
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,000
THEY SIGH
No further questions, my Lord.

396
00:22:26,559 --> 00:22:27,880
'How dare he!'

397
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,759
Standing up there in that ridiculous
suit, spouting those lies.

398
00:22:31,799 --> 00:22:34,599
So you're saying that
Douglas Stewart is lying?

399
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,759
That you didn't try and kill him?

400
00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:39,200
Yes, I did.
But not as he described it.

401
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,960
This is about absolute truth, Brian.

402
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,079
It has to be,
otherwise we don't get any answers.

403
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:46,960
You cannot possibly believe

404
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,319
that what you put him through
out there was justified.

405
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,759
What are you getting
so agitated about?

406
00:22:51,799 --> 00:22:55,640
I'm giving you a wonderful
final act for your book.

407
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,559
Like you said about the book, Brian,

408
00:22:57,599 --> 00:22:59,759
it's not up to us
to make subjective decisions.

409
00:22:59,799 --> 00:23:02,160
We have to remain objective
in all of this.

410
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,559
Thus, it is up to
the jury to decide

411
00:23:04,599 --> 00:23:06,720
whether I'm just bad...

412
00:23:06,759 --> 00:23:08,319
or outrageously bad.

413
00:23:17,279 --> 00:23:19,400
See you back in chambers. Thank you.

414
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,240
Did you know he'd sold
his story to the press?

415
00:23:21,279 --> 00:23:22,440
Course I didn't!

416
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,240
We're lucky the judge didn't strike
his testimony from the record.

417
00:23:25,279 --> 00:23:27,039
It can't have harmed us that much,
right?

418
00:23:27,079 --> 00:23:30,200
Stewart's credibility is gone,
his testimony is now useless.

419
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:31,440
We're in a lot of trouble.

420
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:32,759
Surely we still have enough?

421
00:23:32,799 --> 00:23:35,440
I mean, we have the tie with the
knotted rope, and Duffey's knives.

422
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,160
All those show
premeditation to murder.

423
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,359
Peter, physical evidence
is all very good and well,

424
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:40,519
but it's also circumstantial.

425
00:23:40,559 --> 00:23:41,880
We had an eye witness, a survivor,

426
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,000
and without that,
we're significantly weaker.

427
00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:46,119
Sorry.

428
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,079
Hello, Carl.

429
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:04,480
Can I come in?

430
00:24:14,799 --> 00:24:16,519
How have you been?

431
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,240
Things keep coming back to me.

432
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,279
What kind of things?

433
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,000
He said he liked my shoes.

434
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:35,480
Thank you.

435
00:24:39,519 --> 00:24:43,720
The doctor said
it was all nightmares, caused...

436
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,720
I'd had a bit of a hard time
with an ex of mine.

437
00:24:51,079 --> 00:24:54,000
They even put me on tablets
to block everything out.

438
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,480
Listen, Carl, um...

439
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,880
..the trial
isn't going how we'd hoped.

440
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,559
We think your testimony
could be crucial.

441
00:25:10,599 --> 00:25:12,960
But I've already given my statement.

442
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,519
The man said that would be enough.

443
00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:17,920
I know, but we need you
to give it in court.

444
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:20,400
What, with him there?

445
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,880
You wouldn't have to be close
to him... No, I can't.

446
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,799
Carl...
He killed me, Mr Jay.

447
00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:30,559
And then he...
brought me back to life.

448
00:25:30,599 --> 00:25:34,319
I can't imagine
what you've been through, Carl.

449
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,039
I really can't.

450
00:25:37,079 --> 00:25:39,039
But please believe me,

451
00:25:39,079 --> 00:25:41,839
if he gets a lesser sentence,
you'll find no peace.

452
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,279
I'm sorry. I can't...

453
00:25:46,759 --> 00:25:49,680
..be in the same room as him.

454
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:52,680
I can't go back there.

455
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,359
Then they'll subpoena you anyway.

456
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,680
You'll be forced to testify.

457
00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:04,839
So I don't have a choice?

458
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,519
DOOR OPENS

459
00:26:22,559 --> 00:26:24,480
DOOR SLAMS SHUT

460
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,720
I swear by Almighty God
that the evidence I shall give

461
00:26:28,759 --> 00:26:31,519
shall be the truth, the whole truth
and nothing by the truth.

462
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,759
Could you recount, Mr Stottor,

463
00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:37,599
the events of that night
in April 1982,

464
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,079
when you met the defendant?

465
00:26:45,079 --> 00:26:48,640
Where, for example,
did you meet Mr Nilsen?

466
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,839
In The Black Cap, Camden.

467
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,160
I was depressed.

468
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,039
I'd just broken up with someone.

469
00:26:56,079 --> 00:26:59,079
Speak up, please, Mr Stottor.

470
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,359
He was nice to me.

471
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,160
In what sense was he nice?

472
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,440
He bought me drinks.

473
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,680
Er... He asked me about my family.

474
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,200
He asked if you had family?

475
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,960
Yes, and then he invited me
back to his flat for a drink.

476
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,240
Um... We just drank a lot
and then he said

477
00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:28,160
I could go to sleep on his bed.

478
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,920
And then he warned me
not to get caught

479
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,240
in the zip of the sleeping bag.

480
00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:34,559
Why do you think that was?

481
00:27:34,599 --> 00:27:36,759
Was it perhaps because
he was planning an alibi

482
00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:39,759
in case you managed to escape?
Objection, my Lord. Leading.

483
00:27:39,799 --> 00:27:41,640
Sustained.

484
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,880
Tell us what happened next.

485
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,799
I woke up and I couldn't breathe.

486
00:27:52,839 --> 00:27:56,599
He was behind me and...

487
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,440
I could feel
something digging into my neck.

488
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,519
The pressure got worse...

489
00:28:03,559 --> 00:28:06,000
and the pain was unbearable.

490
00:28:06,039 --> 00:28:07,359
I couldn't see,

491
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,920
or speak, or swallow.

492
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,039
And I could hear him saying,
"Keep still".

493
00:28:14,079 --> 00:28:18,559
The next thing I knew,
I was in water.

494
00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:22,400
In a bath. Being pushed down.
Again and again.

495
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,680
And I didn't know where I was
or what was happening.

496
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,680
And I swallowed water.

497
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,559
I couldn't resist any more
and I realised...

498
00:28:34,599 --> 00:28:37,359
that I was dying.

499
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,559
Thank you, Mr Stottor.

500
00:28:40,599 --> 00:28:42,799
No further questions, my Lord.

501
00:28:42,839 --> 00:28:46,839
You have an alter-ego,
Mr Stottor, do you not?

502
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,039
Khara Le Fox.

503
00:28:49,079 --> 00:28:50,880
A drag act.

504
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,319
You're a female impersonator.

505
00:28:53,359 --> 00:28:55,240
I used to be, yes.

506
00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:57,640
You've already been asked,
Mr Stottor,

507
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,200
if you could speak up

508
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,799
for the benefit of the court?

509
00:29:01,839 --> 00:29:04,160
LOUDER: Yes.

510
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,200
But...

511
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,759
since the attack,
I'm not able to sing any more.

512
00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:13,960
And you had several relationships
with men,

513
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,960
including one which became abusive.

514
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,440
Your night with Nilsen
was, therefore,

515
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,119
not your first violent
homosexual encounter...

516
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,680
My Lord, I must object
to this line of questioning.

517
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,039
A history of deviant encounters

518
00:29:29,079 --> 00:29:32,079
raises the possibility
of a sex game gone wrong, my Lord.

519
00:29:32,119 --> 00:29:35,640
Sustained. Move on, Mr Lawrence.

520
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,039
Now, could you tell us, Mr Stottor,

521
00:29:39,079 --> 00:29:41,799
where you woke up
after you had been in the bath?

522
00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:44,000
On the bed.

523
00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:47,799
On the bed.
And was the room warm or cold?

524
00:29:47,839 --> 00:29:49,640
Warm.

525
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,839
Nilsen had heated the room,
had he not?

526
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,920
He had put on all the bars
on the electric fire.

527
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,400
Yes, I suppose so.

528
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,720
And how long after you woke up
did you leave the flat?

529
00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:07,720
Well, I kept falling asleep,
so maybe one or two days.

530
00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:13,200
One or two days.
Did Nilsen keep you under duress?

531
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:18,119
No, but I was very confused...

532
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,599
and also in a lot of pain.

533
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,960
Did he, in fact, walk you to the
Tube station when you wanted to go?

534
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,039
Yes.

535
00:30:28,079 --> 00:30:32,440
This supposedly cold
and calculating killer,

536
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,359
with every opportunity
to finish the job,

537
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,960
instead let you sleep
in a warm bed for days,

538
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,519
before seeing you home safely.

539
00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:43,799
In fact,
aside from the incident itself,

540
00:30:43,839 --> 00:30:48,119
did he not show you more
care and kindness that evening

541
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,880
than anyone else in your life
had done for a very long time?

542
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,119
Yes.

543
00:30:58,839 --> 00:31:00,799
That's what I can't understand.

544
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,519
Is he my murderer or my saviour?

545
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,920
How peculiar that is.

546
00:31:11,359 --> 00:31:13,920
No further questions, my Lord.

547
00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:17,279
You may step down, Mr Stottor.

548
00:31:21,599 --> 00:31:24,000
You did really well in there.

549
00:31:24,039 --> 00:31:25,319
Listen, Carl...

550
00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:27,839
I want to go home now.

551
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,200
CROWD CALLS OUT

552
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,319
MAN SHOUTS: He should
have killed you, you queer!

553
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,240
VOICES FADE

554
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:56,839
Mr Jay...

555
00:32:05,319 --> 00:32:07,480
I feel I owe you an apology.

556
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,039
You were right.

557
00:32:12,079 --> 00:32:14,240
He's not insane.

558
00:32:14,279 --> 00:32:18,160
He knew exactly what he was doing.

559
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,759
As much then as he does now.

560
00:32:42,759 --> 00:32:45,319
PHOTOGRAPHERS SHOUT

561
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,680
Detective, are you confident?

562
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,119
Do you think you'll get
justice for the victims, Detective?

563
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,319
'In the following days
you interviewed him at length.

564
00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:24,240
'Is that correct?'

565
00:33:24,279 --> 00:33:28,000
Yes, we interviewed him
for a total of 31 hours.

566
00:33:28,039 --> 00:33:29,480
And in those 31 hours,

567
00:33:29,519 --> 00:33:33,000
did Mr Nilsen ever mention
visions or voices in his head

568
00:33:33,039 --> 00:33:35,200
telling him to commit his crimes?
No.

569
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:36,480
Did he ever show any signs at all

570
00:33:36,519 --> 00:33:39,279
of being out of his mind,
so to speak,

571
00:33:39,319 --> 00:33:42,079
or mentally unwell in any way?
No. Quite the opposite, in fact.

572
00:33:42,119 --> 00:33:45,440
He seemed... calm.

573
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,480
Collected. In control.

574
00:33:48,519 --> 00:33:50,799
Hardly a madman.
No.

575
00:33:50,839 --> 00:33:52,559
Detective Chief Inspector Jay,

576
00:33:52,599 --> 00:33:54,039
could you please tell the court,

577
00:33:54,079 --> 00:33:55,839
for how long
have you been a police officer?

578
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,559
Almost 23 years.

579
00:33:58,599 --> 00:34:00,240
And based on those
years of experience,

580
00:34:00,279 --> 00:34:03,359
what is your professional
opinion of Dennis Nilsen?

581
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,799
I've seen criminals
in all shapes and sizes.

582
00:34:09,839 --> 00:34:14,279
When they're on remand, they ask to
be visited by all sorts of people,

583
00:34:14,319 --> 00:34:17,719
priests, rabbis, imams.

584
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,159
I even had a fella
who asked for a shaman.

585
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:25,440
Because most of them
are just wanting forgiveness.

586
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,159
Mr Nilsen's only visitor

587
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:31,679
in the eight months
whilst he was on remand

588
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:32,920
was a biographer.

589
00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:38,039
In my opinion,
he's a remorseless coward

590
00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:41,159
who killed innocent
and vulnerable men as they slept.

591
00:34:42,599 --> 00:34:44,400
Thank you,
Detective Chief Inspector.

592
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,280
No further questions, my Lord.

593
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,000
Detective Chief Inspector,

594
00:34:49,039 --> 00:34:52,960
you say you interviewed Nilsen
for 31 hours, yes?

595
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,119
That's right.

596
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:57,960
In all that time
of him talking almost incessantly,

597
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,719
did he ever mention
planning the murders at all?

598
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:05,000
No.

599
00:35:05,039 --> 00:35:07,920
No further questions, my Lord.

600
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,280
You may step down, Officer.
Thank you.

601
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,880
We have an old Latin phrase
in the law,

602
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,840
"Res ipsa loquitur",

603
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:18,880
"The act speaks for itself."

604
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,480
What sort of man kills people,

605
00:35:21,519 --> 00:35:23,800
lives with their bodies
rotting under the floorboards,

606
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,719
and flushes pieces of them
down the lavatory?

607
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,480
Do these seem to you the actions
of a man in his right mind?

608
00:35:32,519 --> 00:35:35,800
If you think,
as we invite you to think,

609
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,960
and as the evidence surely shows,

610
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,039
that these crimes
were not planned or premeditated,

611
00:35:42,079 --> 00:35:45,519
but were due to Nilsen's
seriously abnormal personality

612
00:35:45,559 --> 00:35:47,000
and way of thinking,

613
00:35:47,039 --> 00:35:49,800
then you will find him
not guilty of murder,

614
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,679
but guilty of manslaughter
by way of diminished responsibility.

615
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,719
That is the verdict
which we invite you to return.

616
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,480
What's taking them so long?

617
00:36:04,039 --> 00:36:07,119
Same again? Wee ones?

618
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,599
DOOR OPENS

619
00:36:29,599 --> 00:36:31,079
Madam Foreman of the jury.

620
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,960
Have you reached verdicts
on which you are all agreed?

621
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,360
No, we have not.

622
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,719
THEY SIGH

623
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,960
Might you reach a verdict if the
court sits until early evening?

624
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,800
I don't believe so, your Honour.

625
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,199
Very well.
You will retire overnight.

626
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,239
The court will reconvene
in the morning

627
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,039
where I will accept
a majority verdict.

628
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,079
TV REPORT: 'More time's
now being spent

629
00:37:03,119 --> 00:37:05,480
'on what's possibly wrong
with Dennis Nilsen

630
00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:07,400
'than what he's actually done.

631
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:12,199
'A man who has described himself
as the "murderer of the century".

632
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:16,039
'A defence psychiatrist said Nilsen
acted as if HE were the judge,

633
00:37:16,079 --> 00:37:18,719
'judging this case
of an infamous crime.

634
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,000
'He shows off.

635
00:37:20,039 --> 00:37:23,960
'He really believes he is the most
important person of the century.

636
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,320
'The defence expert found another
way of describing Nilsen's mind.

637
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,519
' "His personality
was like his house.

638
00:37:29,559 --> 00:37:31,719
' "It looked perfectly
all right from the outside,

639
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,239
' "but perhaps there was something
of a funny smell about it,

640
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,480
' "and when you looked
under the floorboards,

641
00:37:36,519 --> 00:37:38,400
' "you would find horrors." '

642
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,960
The jury is returning.

643
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,599
Would the foreman
of the jury please stand?

644
00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:14,679
Madam Foreman,

645
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,559
do you have a majority
on your verdicts?

646
00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:19,719
We do.

647
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,679
On the charge of the murder
of Stephen Sinclair,

648
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,719
how do you find the defendant?

649
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:27,079
Guilty.

650
00:38:28,599 --> 00:38:32,159
On the charge of the murder
of Kenneth Ockenden,

651
00:38:32,199 --> 00:38:33,719
how do you find the defendant?

652
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:34,800
Guilty.

653
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,800
On the charge of the murder
of John Howlett,

654
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,280
how do you find the defendant?

655
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:41,519
Guilty.

656
00:38:41,559 --> 00:38:44,320
On the charge of the murder
of Martyn Duffey,

657
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,000
how do you find the defendant?

658
00:38:46,039 --> 00:38:47,719
Guilty.

659
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,519
On the charge of the murder
of Billy Sutherland,

660
00:38:50,559 --> 00:38:52,480
how do you find the defendant?

661
00:38:52,519 --> 00:38:53,880
Guilty.

662
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,079
On the charge of the murder
of Malcolm Barlow,

663
00:38:56,119 --> 00:38:57,840
how do you find the defendant?

664
00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,400
Guilty.

665
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,679
On the charge of the
attempted murder of Douglas Stewart,

666
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,519
how do you find the defendant?

667
00:39:04,559 --> 00:39:06,400
Guilty.

668
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,719
On the charge of
the attempted murder of Paul Nobbs,

669
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,880
how do you find the defendant?

670
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,199
Guilty.

671
00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:17,239
Dennis Andrew Nilsen,

672
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,960
your victims
were innocent young men,

673
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,440
guilty only
of accepting your hospitality,

674
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,119
whereupon you ended their lives
cruelly and callously,

675
00:39:28,159 --> 00:39:33,119
for reasons that will
remain known only to you.

676
00:39:33,159 --> 00:39:37,880
The sentence for murder
is fixed in law.

677
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,239
It is imprisonment for life,

678
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,079
and that is the sentence
which I pass on you

679
00:39:43,119 --> 00:39:46,440
on each count of this indictment.

680
00:39:48,039 --> 00:39:49,599
Take him down.

681
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,360
DOOR SLAMS

682
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,280
INDISTINCT CONVERSATION

683
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,559
Mr Jay. Well done.

684
00:40:22,599 --> 00:40:24,400
It went down to the wire
at the end, didn't it?

685
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,599
You must be pleased it's over.

686
00:40:28,679 --> 00:40:31,760
If at any time in the future
you remember any more names...

687
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:34,920
..please write to me.

688
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,119
I promise
you'll be the first to know.

689
00:40:38,159 --> 00:40:40,320
I think the jury got it right
in the end.  Yeah.

690
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:41,760
I don't think I'm mad.

691
00:40:43,079 --> 00:40:45,800
If you hadn't caught me that day...

692
00:40:47,679 --> 00:40:50,199
..it'd be 115, not 15.

693
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:53,840
I could never have stopped.

694
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:57,679
OK.

695
00:40:59,559 --> 00:41:00,760
Good luck.

696
00:41:31,199 --> 00:41:33,000
What will you do with it all?

697
00:41:33,039 --> 00:41:37,000
Oh, I don't know.
Chuck most of it, probably.

698
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,639
Mr Jay...um...

699
00:41:44,679 --> 00:41:46,800
do you mind if I ask you a question?

700
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:49,199
Go on.

701
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:53,840
When you first met him,
did you believe him straight away?

702
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:56,880
Yes, I did.

703
00:41:58,079 --> 00:41:59,840
What went through your mind
at that moment?

704
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:02,039
Well, I thought, um...

705
00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:09,239
Honestly?

706
00:42:13,039 --> 00:42:15,800
The first thing I thought was,
"I hope that I'm up to this."

707
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,320
Don't put that in your book.

708
00:42:19,519 --> 00:42:21,199
You have my word.

709
00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:26,039
And about my book...

710
00:42:26,079 --> 00:42:27,679
No, look, it's fine.

711
00:42:30,159 --> 00:42:33,000
We both had our way
of looking at this.

712
00:42:36,199 --> 00:42:39,360
Well, what will they do
with this place?

713
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,519
I don't know.

714
00:42:42,559 --> 00:42:46,159
Sell it or rent it out, I'd imagine.
Hm.

715
00:42:46,199 --> 00:42:49,360
Who'd want to live here?
I mean, it's...

716
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,920
There's the smell for one thing.

717
00:42:55,079 --> 00:42:57,440
D'you know the worst thing?

718
00:42:59,159 --> 00:43:01,280
I don't smell it any more.

719
00:43:07,159 --> 00:43:08,960
I'll see you outside.

720
00:43:21,559 --> 00:43:24,440
So, how have you been?

721
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:29,119
Ah, you know. Adjusting to being
a permanent resident, and all.

722
00:43:29,159 --> 00:43:32,280
Apart from that, not too bad.

723
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,280
I read your book. My book.

724
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,039
What did you think?

725
00:43:36,079 --> 00:43:39,840
To be honest, Brian,
I found it absolutely terrifying.

726
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:42,800
But it's good.

727
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,960
Much better than I expected.
Of course, I have some thoughts.

728
00:43:48,519 --> 00:43:51,119
Please don't be discouraged
by my observations.

729
00:43:51,159 --> 00:43:53,880
I've lost none of my respect
or admiration for you,

730
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:55,840
or your work.

731
00:44:01,079 --> 00:44:03,440
Oh, well, thank you. Um...

732
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,320
I'm sure it'll be very helpful.

733
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,000
My biggest concern is
you didn't name any of the victims.

734
00:44:08,039 --> 00:44:10,920
No, I-I wanted to respect
their privacy.

735
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,159
Well, I think it's disrespectful
not naming them.

736
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,800
I robbed them of their life. Please
don't rob them of their identities.

737
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:22,840
And the title,

738
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,280
Killing For Company,
is a little...

739
00:44:26,559 --> 00:44:29,920
Ah. It should just be Nilsen.

740
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:31,519
No.

741
00:44:31,559 --> 00:44:33,800
Why not?

742
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:35,719
Book is about me, after all.

743
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,880
I'm not going to call it Nilsen.

744
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,239
This isn't your book.
It's not about you.

745
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,280
It's about how someone
like you came to be.

746
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,039
I told you when we first met

747
00:44:45,079 --> 00:44:48,960
that I wasn't going to use
grisly or emotive adjectives,

748
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,599
and I have stuck to my word.

749
00:44:51,639 --> 00:44:54,000
But make no mistake,

750
00:44:54,039 --> 00:44:56,679
this isn't a celebration.

751
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,920
It's a warning.

752
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,840
You know, there were
only 12 victims, not 15.

753
00:45:09,159 --> 00:45:12,199
When I sat in the back of the
police car the night of my arrest,

754
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,480
they asked me how many there were,
and I wasn't very sure,

755
00:45:14,519 --> 00:45:16,719
so I just gave them a figure,
"15 or 16".

756
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,079
And three...three of those victims
were invented,

757
00:45:22,119 --> 00:45:25,719
just to complement the continuity
of evidence for the police.

758
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,480
Keep them happy.

759
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,800
Everybody has had a chance
to write their version of my story.

760
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:33,679
When's it my turn?

761
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,400
I'll send you a copy
when it's published.

762
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,320
Come and see me again.

763
00:47:03,199 --> 00:47:05,639
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