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Downloaded from
YTS.MX

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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

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(footsteps)

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(copying)

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(printing)

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(tapping paper)

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(keys jingling)

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Okay.

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Here are the two copies, Mom.

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-Dorothy Lewis: Okay.
And again, by the way...
-I'm ready.

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feel free to say yuck.

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But, you know,
feel free to say, "Mom,

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don't say that," okay? Okay.

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That Joseph Paul Franklin
was crazy,

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there could be
little doubt.

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"The New York Times"
called me "The Slayer."

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I like the word, you know,
the term "multiple slayer"

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better than
"serial killer" anyway.

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You know what I'm saying?

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-Dorothy: Got it? Okay.
-Eric Lewis: Mm-hmm.

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Dorothy:
No, not 'cause
he hated Jews.

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Lots of ostensibly
sane people hate Jews.

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Bigotry and insanity
are different.

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-(projector clicking)
-At least my mother
thought so.

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-Wait, can you hold on
one sec? (muttering)
-Yeah, do you see that?

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-Then it goes from
there to my mother...
-My mother seemed to know

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the names of every
anti-Semite alive and dead.

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Henry Ford, Richard Wagner,

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Joe Kennedy,
even Walt Disney.

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And then I have in quotes,
"Not Walt Disney, Mom!"

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-Unquote, okay?
Close quote.
-Eric: Mm-hmm.

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Dorothy:
"Yes, Walt Disney,"
she declared.

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Still, she took me
to see "Bambi"
and I cried and cried.

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Now, it goes up to the upper
left-hand corner, okay?

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Dot-dot, got it?  (laughs)

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The memories that
come back to me

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when I'm, you know,
when I'm writing.

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They're-- they have nothing
to do with the case,

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but it's sort of fun. Okay,

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now we're going back to,
"As I write this,

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I ask myself why I agreed
to examine Mr. Franklin."

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How are you supposed to act
if you've killed people?

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You know?
You're supposed to have blood
dripping from your mouth

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and all that? Fangs?

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Dorothy:
How could I be certain that
I would not be prejudiced?

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Looking back in time,
I think examining
Mr. Franklin

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was as close as
I would ever come
to examining Hitler.

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Hitler has always
been a mystery.

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A man responsible for
the deaths of so many,

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but someone who,
to the best of my
knowledge,

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never personally
killed anyone.

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My regret is that
nobody had the chance
to study him,

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to find out what
made him tick.

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How did he get that way?

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Could I get that way?
Could anyone?

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♪ ♪

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I look back on the many
killers I have come to know

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over the past four decades.

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There are diagnoses
I make now

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that I didn't
even know existed

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because of my own
ignorance, comma,

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because I didn't ask
the right questions.

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(laughs)
It's nice to be able
to correct one's mistakes.

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More often, we probably
don't even know
when we make them.

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Man:
Doctor, looking at
the evidence in this case,

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are you able to tell us
whether the defendant

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(echoing):
is insane or not?

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♪ ♪

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(newsreel music)

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Dorothy:
When I was very little,

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I remember reading about
the Nuremberg Trials.

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Newsreel Narrator:
In Berlin, the defendants

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are to plead guilty

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-or not guilty...
-Dorothy:
Lying on the carpet.

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We lived in New York,
in an apartment,

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and the newspaper
in front of me,

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and seeing pictures of
Goebbels and Göring.

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Judge:
Defendant Hermann
Wilhelm Göring,

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the International
Military Tribunal

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sentences you to
death by hanging.

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Dorothy:
I was aware that

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people were deliberately
killing other people.

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And I was aware

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of my own anger
and my own aggression.

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And I remember thinking,

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how come I don't kill?

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How come, when I get
so angry, I don't kill?

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It's fascinated me.

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I've been horrified
by the fact that

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I think any one of us,
myself included,

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could become a Nazi.

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♪ ♪

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Maybe I went to
medical school
or became a psychiatrist,

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in part,
to learn about why.

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(bell chiming)

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Don't you ever wonder
why you don't murder?

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-Alex Gibney: I do.
-Yeah.

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I never planned to work
with violent people,

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certainly not murderers.

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Dorothy and Narrator:
I went through
medical school

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in order to become
a psychoanalyst.

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I saw myself in
a private office,

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seated behind
a supine patient...

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Narrator:
listening and commenting
as he struggled

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to resolve the violent
internal conflicts

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between his id
and his superego.

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Instead, a series
of unexpected events

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drew me deeper and deeper
into the study of violence.

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In the early '70s,
I was working at

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the Juvenile Court Clinic
in New Haven,

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examining delinquents.
Most of the delinquents

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who crossed the threshold
of my office

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had horrendous
backgrounds--

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car accidents,
falls, burns,

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even carbon monoxide
poisoning.

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A good number
of the injuries

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were not caused by
reckless drivers,

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broken tree branches,
or overturned coffee pots.

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They were
caused by parents.

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♪ ♪

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Gradually,
I was gathering clues.

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I was discovering why
one person cried in pain,

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while another lashed
out in response to it.

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(siren wailing)

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I managed to get
a small grant to study
the prisoners on

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the Bellevue
Forensic Wards.

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I examined
Mark David Chapman,

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the man who shot
John Lennon.

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We also saw a less famous,
but more flamboyant inmate,

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who cut off his
father's head and penis,

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and chucked both
out the window.

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It was a...
colorful period.

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(hospital chatter)

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Gibney:
So how'd you first start
working with Dorothy?

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By accident, yeah. So,

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I saw this ad for
a research assistant.

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"Juvenile delinquents,"
is what the ad says.

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A grant to do a project

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having to do with delinquency.

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It happened to be Dorothy.

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I happened to say,
you know,
I'll give it a shot.

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We hit it off,
and it started everything.

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Dorothy:
We became a bit of a team,
working together.

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And we saw so many
children at Bellevue.

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Narrator: A study
of the patients on our
children's psychiatric ward

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revealed that
of 55 children
admitted in one year,

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21 had been homicidal.

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One child was admitted
after trying to
strangle her sister.

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Another set fire
to the couch on which
his mother slept.

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A 4-year-old held a knife
to his mother's throat.

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-(flames burning)
-(children chattering)

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We tried to look
at the variables.

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Was there any difference between

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the homicidal young children,

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and the ones who were on

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the psychiatric ward,
but had not been homicidal.

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And we found that

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the homicidal kids
were much more likely

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to have been abused,

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and they were
much more likely

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to have signs of
organic impairment,

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brain dysfunction.

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Jonathan Pincus:
I was an ambitious academic
neurologist at the time,

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on the faculty at Yale.

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I thought that there was nothing

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neurologically wrong
with violent people.

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She convinced me to
participate in the study.

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What's the relationship
between

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the brain damage
and the behavior?

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Dorothy:
What we saw was if you
have battered a child,

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shaken it,
knocked it
against the wall,

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then you could often
see little hemorrhages
in the brain.

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Sometimes,
that distinguished

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the super-aggressive kids

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from the
psychiatrically ill
but not aggressive kids.

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♪ ♪

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I had written an article
in a psychiatric journal,

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and Diane Sawyer,
her assistants had read it,

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and they called me
and she wanted
to interview me.

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We're going to take a closer
look at violent children,

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-teenagers or...
-Dorothy:
It's the first time

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I'd ever been
on television.

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Diane Sawyer:
Dr. Lewis, thank you very
much for coming this morning.

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It's a fascinating study,
and a pioneering one,

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as I understand it.

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We did a study of
the medical histories

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00:09:01,875 --> 00:09:03,208
from hospital records...

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00:09:03,291 --> 00:09:06,625
Dorothy:
I talked about
the brain dysfunction

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00:09:06,708 --> 00:09:09,708
and the history of
abuse that a lot of

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-the violent kids had.
-46% had major
neurological problems...

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00:09:13,750 --> 00:09:16,583
Either that day or
the next day, I got a call

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00:09:16,667 --> 00:09:20,249
from Dick Burr,
just an incredible
public defender

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00:09:20,333 --> 00:09:23,750
and he said, "I saw you
on the news yesterday."

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00:09:23,833 --> 00:09:25,667
Dick Burr:
She was talking about how

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00:09:25,750 --> 00:09:27,958
you can't begin to
evaluate somebody

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00:09:28,041 --> 00:09:30,541
who's committed a violent
crime unless you have

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a really thorough
and complete life history.

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00:09:33,041 --> 00:09:35,333
-Here's a family history...
-Burr: And at that point

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00:09:35,416 --> 00:09:37,583
in the death penalty
defense community,

200
00:09:37,667 --> 00:09:40,541
we had always thought
mental health
was important,

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00:09:40,625 --> 00:09:42,458
but we didn't
understand it.

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00:09:42,541 --> 00:09:45,166
Dorothy:
He said, "I have a client

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00:09:45,249 --> 00:09:47,041
on death row
here in Florida."

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00:09:47,124 --> 00:09:49,541
Burr:
We had a case,
William Elledge...

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00:09:49,625 --> 00:09:51,708
♪ ♪

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00:09:51,792 --> 00:09:54,083
that I was the primary
lawyer on,

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00:09:54,166 --> 00:09:57,249
moving into the state
post-conviction process.

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00:09:57,333 --> 00:09:59,500
Dorothy:
"Would you be willing to
come down to death row

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00:09:59,583 --> 00:10:01,041
and examine him?"

210
00:10:01,124 --> 00:10:04,083
Burr:
And she came and helped us
and taught us.  (laughs)

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00:10:04,166 --> 00:10:06,208
-(prison chatter)
-Dorothy: Sure enough,

212
00:10:06,291 --> 00:10:09,166
the guy had
brain dysfunction

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00:10:09,249 --> 00:10:13,583
and a history
of hideous abuse.

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00:10:13,667 --> 00:10:16,750
A few weeks later,
I saw I got a call again.

215
00:10:16,833 --> 00:10:18,667
"We have another guy."

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00:10:18,750 --> 00:10:21,249
His name was Nollie Martin.

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00:10:21,333 --> 00:10:25,083
Apparently, someone had run
over his head with a car,

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00:10:25,166 --> 00:10:27,792
and there was
a dent in his head.

219
00:10:27,875 --> 00:10:29,625
So, I wrote it up.

220
00:10:29,708 --> 00:10:32,958
A colleague of mine
said to me,

221
00:10:33,041 --> 00:10:35,166
"Dorothy,
think of it this way.

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00:10:35,249 --> 00:10:36,958
"If you put your
finger in a haystack

223
00:10:37,041 --> 00:10:40,458
"and you get tapped
by a needle,
that's by chance.

224
00:10:40,541 --> 00:10:44,124
"But if you put
your finger in the haystack
a second time,

225
00:10:44,208 --> 00:10:45,999
and again you're stuck
by a needle," he said,

226
00:10:46,083 --> 00:10:48,541
"there are a lot
of needles there."

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00:10:48,625 --> 00:10:52,041
Burr:
When a murder happens,
you wonder why.

228
00:10:52,124 --> 00:10:55,416
I've always been of the view
that there are some reasons

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00:10:55,500 --> 00:10:57,541
that they happen.
Not because people

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00:10:57,625 --> 00:10:59,750
are inherently bad or evil.

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00:10:59,833 --> 00:11:01,792
I don't believe in evil.
(laughs)

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00:11:01,875 --> 00:11:04,583
Anybody who pulls a trigger and
squeezes a life out of somebody

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00:11:04,667 --> 00:11:06,750
for the calculated reason
of starting a race war

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00:11:06,833 --> 00:11:08,999
where other people
would be killed is evil.

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00:11:09,083 --> 00:11:12,750
Well, evil is
a religious concept.

236
00:11:12,833 --> 00:11:14,500
It's not a scientific concept.

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00:11:14,583 --> 00:11:16,833
And what society wants to do

238
00:11:16,917 --> 00:11:19,917
with a person like
that is up to society.

239
00:11:19,999 --> 00:11:22,792
But, it at least helps
to know what motivates

240
00:11:22,875 --> 00:11:25,917
a serial killer
or what motivates a...

241
00:11:25,999 --> 00:11:29,375
-Right, hatred. That's
what's motivating it.
-Well, it's more than that.

242
00:11:29,458 --> 00:11:30,833
There's much more than that.

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00:11:30,917 --> 00:11:33,166
Burr:
You know, we all sort
of just saw the light,

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00:11:33,249 --> 00:11:36,500
and began to realize from
working with Dorothy that

245
00:11:36,583 --> 00:11:40,333
we had to get a lot
more information
about people's lives.

246
00:11:40,416 --> 00:11:42,124
Yeager:
We had defense attorneys

247
00:11:42,208 --> 00:11:44,124
from different parts of
the country start to call us

248
00:11:44,208 --> 00:11:46,958
as a team to see
their tough cases.

249
00:11:47,041 --> 00:11:49,999
These tended not to be
open-and-shut cases

250
00:11:50,083 --> 00:11:53,041
of people doing
violent things.
These were puzzles.

251
00:11:53,124 --> 00:11:56,875
I have now seen
22 serial killers.

252
00:11:56,958 --> 00:11:59,208
A lot of other
plain-old killers,

253
00:11:59,291 --> 00:12:02,208
(chuckle) but 22 serial killers.

254
00:12:02,291 --> 00:12:04,375
And what we tend to find is

255
00:12:04,458 --> 00:12:08,208
when you couple
either a predisposition
to psychosis

256
00:12:08,291 --> 00:12:11,208
and/or some kind of
brain dysfunction,

257
00:12:11,291 --> 00:12:15,625
with a history of horrible
early ongoing abuse,

258
00:12:15,708 --> 00:12:17,833
you get a
super-dangerous person.

259
00:12:19,166 --> 00:12:22,583
And what is fascinating
is you can find

260
00:12:22,667 --> 00:12:25,208
what were the social,
the psychological,

261
00:12:25,291 --> 00:12:28,792
the biological forces that
came together to create

262
00:12:28,875 --> 00:12:31,875
this murderous human being.

263
00:12:32,999 --> 00:12:35,833
It's like being a detective,
which I love.

264
00:12:35,917 --> 00:12:38,041
I truly love it.

265
00:12:38,833 --> 00:12:41,792
(birds chirping)

266
00:12:45,625 --> 00:12:48,833
(coffee machine humming)

267
00:12:48,917 --> 00:12:51,917
-(cafe chatter)
-Dorothy: Thanks so much.

268
00:12:51,999 --> 00:12:54,750
-Thank you. Yeah.
-Barista: You're welcome.

269
00:12:54,833 --> 00:12:56,500
(cars honking)

270
00:13:01,541 --> 00:13:04,833
(elevator bell dings)

271
00:13:04,917 --> 00:13:08,416
Teacher:
The only way to approach
a drawing is to feel free.

272
00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:10,416
If you have that
freedom in you,

273
00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:12,208
it's gonna show
in your drawing.

274
00:13:12,291 --> 00:13:14,083
As long as we keep in mind,

275
00:13:14,166 --> 00:13:16,792
stepping back, looking
at what we're doing,

276
00:13:16,875 --> 00:13:19,249
and then going back
and making changes.

277
00:13:19,333 --> 00:13:21,124
Changes are very important.

278
00:13:21,208 --> 00:13:23,083
I always say
to the students,

279
00:13:23,166 --> 00:13:25,875
remember those first
drawings you were doing,

280
00:13:25,958 --> 00:13:27,958
and then you were
unhappy with them?

281
00:13:28,041 --> 00:13:30,291
Those drawings
allows you actually

282
00:13:30,375 --> 00:13:33,249
to do what you have
been doing now.

283
00:13:33,333 --> 00:13:36,291
And so, that's why I always
talk about the process

284
00:13:36,375 --> 00:13:38,291
and making changes
all the time...

285
00:13:38,375 --> 00:13:41,625
♪ ♪

286
00:13:41,708 --> 00:13:43,458
Dorothy:
Any case I've worked on,

287
00:13:43,541 --> 00:13:45,458
I came as a blank slate,

288
00:13:45,541 --> 00:13:47,875
and saw whatever I saw.

289
00:13:49,333 --> 00:13:53,541
Over time, the complete
picture came to light.

290
00:13:57,917 --> 00:14:01,249
Early in my career,
I evaluated a woman,

291
00:14:01,333 --> 00:14:02,792
Marie Moore.

292
00:14:02,875 --> 00:14:06,166
She lived in an apartment
with her 14-year-old
daughter,

293
00:14:06,249 --> 00:14:09,208
and her daughter's
boyfriend.

294
00:14:09,958 --> 00:14:11,958
The boyfriend was

295
00:14:12,041 --> 00:14:14,541
a particularly sadistic
kind of person.

296
00:14:14,625 --> 00:14:17,458
-(woman giggling)
-Somehow, Marie got

297
00:14:17,541 --> 00:14:19,667
sexually involved
with the boyfriend.

298
00:14:19,750 --> 00:14:22,958
And a girlfriend of
her daughter came over,

299
00:14:23,041 --> 00:14:26,541
-and Marie
and the boyfriend
-(door creaking)

300
00:14:26,625 --> 00:14:30,333
-took her captive.
-(shuts)

301
00:14:30,416 --> 00:14:32,958
They kept her naked,
just in diapers.

302
00:14:33,041 --> 00:14:35,333
-(cuffs click)
-They handcuffed her

303
00:14:35,416 --> 00:14:37,917
and toe-cuffed
her to the floor.

304
00:14:37,999 --> 00:14:40,875
They shoved things
into every orifice

305
00:14:40,958 --> 00:14:43,124
that a person has.

306
00:14:43,208 --> 00:14:46,958
And then, one day,
the 14-year-old boy

307
00:14:47,041 --> 00:14:49,667
dragged her over
to the bathroom

308
00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:51,124
and knocked her head

309
00:14:51,208 --> 00:14:53,333
-(thud)
-against the tub
and killed her.

310
00:14:53,416 --> 00:14:54,583
(dripping)

311
00:14:54,667 --> 00:14:58,041
The body was discovered
and they were arrested.

312
00:14:58,124 --> 00:15:00,041
(police siren, radio chatter)

313
00:15:00,124 --> 00:15:03,041
The boy ratted on Marie.

314
00:15:03,124 --> 00:15:05,500
It was the boy who had
actually killed her,

315
00:15:05,583 --> 00:15:08,917
but, being a juvenile,
he was offered a plea,

316
00:15:08,999 --> 00:15:11,291
and Marie was tried

317
00:15:11,375 --> 00:15:13,500
-for this murder.
-(phone ringing)

318
00:15:13,583 --> 00:15:16,750
I got a call from
an attorney asking me

319
00:15:16,833 --> 00:15:20,249
whether I would do
an evaluation of Marie.

320
00:15:20,333 --> 00:15:23,667
The lawyer said
something to me about how

321
00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:26,583
he thought she was a multiple.

322
00:15:26,667 --> 00:15:29,708
Well, I had been trained
that there was no such thing.

323
00:15:29,792 --> 00:15:31,875
♪ ♪

324
00:15:31,958 --> 00:15:34,500
I went to see her,

325
00:15:34,583 --> 00:15:36,583
and she reminded me of me.

326
00:15:36,667 --> 00:15:40,999
I was wearing big glasses
and she was wearing
big glasses.

327
00:15:41,083 --> 00:15:42,917
We were talking
and I asked her

328
00:15:42,999 --> 00:15:45,958
had anyone ever
bothered her sexually,

329
00:15:46,041 --> 00:15:47,249
and she said,

330
00:15:47,333 --> 00:15:49,500
"No! No! No!

331
00:15:49,583 --> 00:15:52,667
Absolutely not!"

332
00:15:53,875 --> 00:15:55,875
I had been told that

333
00:15:55,958 --> 00:16:00,291
people around her
said that she changed.

334
00:16:00,375 --> 00:16:03,792
That sometimes,
her voice became gruff,

335
00:16:03,875 --> 00:16:06,875
and she wanted
to be called Billy.

336
00:16:06,958 --> 00:16:10,541
So I asked her about this,
and she said,

337
00:16:10,625 --> 00:16:13,416
"Well, people tell me
that I get that way,

338
00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:15,124
"that I become like a boy,

339
00:16:15,208 --> 00:16:18,750
but I don't remember it.
I don't think so."

340
00:16:18,833 --> 00:16:20,208
♪ ♪

341
00:16:20,291 --> 00:16:22,667
It was getting
to be about 5:00,

342
00:16:22,750 --> 00:16:24,708
and the investigator

343
00:16:24,792 --> 00:16:26,833
stuck his head in the door,
and he said, you know,

344
00:16:26,917 --> 00:16:29,667
"We have to go."
And I said, "Marie,

345
00:16:29,750 --> 00:16:33,625
I have to stop now, but
I'll be back to see you."

346
00:16:33,708 --> 00:16:35,583
And she said, "Don't go."

347
00:16:35,667 --> 00:16:38,124
She said,
"There's something
I have to tell you."

348
00:16:38,208 --> 00:16:41,458
In just that tone.
And so, I sat.

349
00:16:42,124 --> 00:16:44,708
And, uh, sat.

350
00:16:44,792 --> 00:16:46,500
And I said,
"You know, Marie,

351
00:16:46,583 --> 00:16:49,124
I really have to go."

352
00:16:49,208 --> 00:16:51,166
And then I gathered
up my papers,

353
00:16:51,249 --> 00:16:54,166
and I turn my back
and put my hand

354
00:16:54,249 --> 00:16:56,999
on the doorknob,
and I hear

355
00:16:57,083 --> 00:17:00,458
behind me a voice
that said...

356
00:17:00,541 --> 00:17:03,208
(gruffly):
"Don't go."

357
00:17:03,291 --> 00:17:07,333
(laughs) You know,
the hairs on my arm stood up.

358
00:17:07,416 --> 00:17:11,416
And I turned around
and I said...

359
00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:14,333
"Billy?"
And he says...

360
00:17:14,416 --> 00:17:15,458
(gruffly):
"Hello."

361
00:17:15,541 --> 00:17:18,999
♪ ♪

362
00:17:19,083 --> 00:17:22,083
I said, "Billy, how long
have you known Marie?"

363
00:17:22,166 --> 00:17:25,708
And he said,
"I've known her
all her life."

364
00:17:25,792 --> 00:17:26,958
I said to him,

365
00:17:27,041 --> 00:17:30,083
"Did her father
ever bother her

366
00:17:30,166 --> 00:17:32,458
in any way?"
And Billy said,

367
00:17:32,541 --> 00:17:34,708
"Sure, he did.

368
00:17:34,792 --> 00:17:37,124
"He used to put pencils

369
00:17:37,208 --> 00:17:39,541
"in her vagina,
in her rectum.

370
00:17:39,625 --> 00:17:42,375
"When she was 12 years old,
he went to bed with her

371
00:17:42,458 --> 00:17:45,041
and he had sex with her."

372
00:17:45,124 --> 00:17:46,792
And I said, "Billy,

373
00:17:46,875 --> 00:17:49,541
I really need to
talk to Marie again."

374
00:17:49,625 --> 00:17:51,792
But Billy said,

375
00:17:51,875 --> 00:17:53,792
"I could kill her.

376
00:17:53,875 --> 00:17:55,875
"I could make her
take pills.

377
00:17:55,958 --> 00:17:58,124
I could make her
hang herself."

378
00:17:59,958 --> 00:18:03,333
That turned out to be
the very first multiple that--

379
00:18:03,416 --> 00:18:05,458
Not the first I've ever seen.

380
00:18:05,541 --> 00:18:07,999
The first that
I ever knew I saw.

381
00:18:08,083 --> 00:18:10,124
♪ ♪

382
00:18:10,208 --> 00:18:14,416
I had her have
psychological testing.

383
00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:16,750
And on the Rorschach test,

384
00:18:16,833 --> 00:18:18,500
which is a projective test,

385
00:18:18,583 --> 00:18:21,875
you look at inkblots
and see what people see,

386
00:18:21,958 --> 00:18:23,750
and there are certain
normal responses

387
00:18:23,833 --> 00:18:27,750
and certain psychotic
kinds of responses.

388
00:18:27,833 --> 00:18:31,291
And Billy's test results
were

389
00:18:31,375 --> 00:18:34,583
as psychotic as they come,

390
00:18:34,667 --> 00:18:37,291
and Marie had absolutely

391
00:18:37,375 --> 00:18:40,708
the most normal Rorschach
that you would expect.

392
00:18:43,667 --> 00:18:47,166
I'm fascinated by
how can there be such

393
00:18:47,249 --> 00:18:50,750
different functioning
in the same brain?

394
00:18:50,833 --> 00:18:52,750
My daughter Gillian says,

395
00:18:52,833 --> 00:18:54,458
"Mom, you're
the only one who does

396
00:18:54,541 --> 00:18:56,291
group therapy with one person."

397
00:18:56,375 --> 00:18:59,500
♪ ♪

398
00:19:00,917 --> 00:19:04,583
Narrator:
I would never again see
people as I had before.

399
00:19:04,667 --> 00:19:07,458
My innocence,
which sprang
from ignorance,

400
00:19:07,541 --> 00:19:09,208
would be stripped away,

401
00:19:09,291 --> 00:19:11,166
and I would learn things
about human beings

402
00:19:11,249 --> 00:19:14,875
that I'd not been taught
during my training
as a psychiatrist.

403
00:19:14,958 --> 00:19:17,708
Things most of us
would rather not know.

404
00:19:19,333 --> 00:19:21,124
Violent alternate
personalities

405
00:19:21,208 --> 00:19:23,750
are usually
caricatures of evil,

406
00:19:23,833 --> 00:19:25,958
created in the minds
of tormented children

407
00:19:26,041 --> 00:19:28,166
to take their pain
and defend them

408
00:19:28,249 --> 00:19:31,999
against real
or imagined enemies.

409
00:19:32,083 --> 00:19:35,041
They embody the strength,
courage, and wiliness

410
00:19:35,124 --> 00:19:37,917
needed for a tortured
child to survive.

411
00:19:39,583 --> 00:19:40,958
Though some mental
health experts say

412
00:19:41,041 --> 00:19:43,750
Multiple Personality Disorder
doesn't exist,

413
00:19:43,833 --> 00:19:46,917
the American Psychiatric
Association says it does,

414
00:19:46,999 --> 00:19:49,625
calling it Dissociative
Identity Disorder,

415
00:19:49,708 --> 00:19:51,541
and adding, in most
cases, it involves

416
00:19:51,625 --> 00:19:54,208
severe abuse or trauma
in childhood.

417
00:19:54,291 --> 00:19:57,625
Parts of the mind splitting
from each other...

418
00:19:57,708 --> 00:20:01,083
Dorothy:
Before Freud, people
like Janet talked about

419
00:20:01,166 --> 00:20:03,416
consciousness at many
different levels,

420
00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:06,833
like streams running
parallel to each other.

421
00:20:06,917 --> 00:20:08,875
♪ ♪

422
00:20:08,958 --> 00:20:10,541
Haven't you ever driven
and been kind of

423
00:20:10,625 --> 00:20:13,291
into your own thoughts
and you pass the exit

424
00:20:13,375 --> 00:20:15,249
that you meant
to get off at

425
00:20:15,333 --> 00:20:18,833
'cause you were really
thinking about
something else?

426
00:20:18,917 --> 00:20:22,375
-We all, from time
to time, dissociate.
-(fireworks popping)

427
00:20:22,458 --> 00:20:24,208
It's a continuum.

428
00:20:24,291 --> 00:20:27,375
There are degrees
all the way to where,

429
00:20:27,458 --> 00:20:30,208
for a period of time,
the individual

430
00:20:30,291 --> 00:20:33,792
truly believes himself
to be someone else.

431
00:20:35,958 --> 00:20:39,750
At Bellevue, we ran
a clinic for children

432
00:20:39,833 --> 00:20:42,375
with Dissociative
Identity Disorder,

433
00:20:42,458 --> 00:20:45,208
and it became clear
that it starts

434
00:20:45,291 --> 00:20:48,958
very, very, very early.

435
00:20:49,041 --> 00:20:51,375
I worked with one child,
let's call her Nancy,

436
00:20:51,458 --> 00:20:54,708
and she had an alter
named Amanda.

437
00:20:59,999 --> 00:21:01,625
Uh...

438
00:21:03,999 --> 00:21:06,583
Around 7 or 8.

439
00:21:06,667 --> 00:21:09,500
-7 or 8? What did
you do for her?
-Mm-hmm.

440
00:21:11,792 --> 00:21:13,917
-I talked to her.
-(clicks pen)

441
00:21:13,999 --> 00:21:15,875
You talked to her?

442
00:21:15,958 --> 00:21:18,333
-What about?
-(clicks pen)

443
00:21:18,416 --> 00:21:20,041
What happened.

444
00:21:21,208 --> 00:21:23,583
Dorothy:
Nancy was referred to me

445
00:21:23,667 --> 00:21:26,416
by a social worker.

446
00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:28,541
She had been abused
by a relative.

447
00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:40,458
Dorothy:
I have videos of
Nancy going through

448
00:21:40,541 --> 00:21:42,667
so many different
kinds of stages.

449
00:21:42,750 --> 00:21:44,249
♪ ♪

450
00:21:44,333 --> 00:21:48,917
Also, Nancy kept a diary.

451
00:21:48,999 --> 00:21:51,833
Her different personas
had different handwriting.

452
00:21:51,917 --> 00:21:54,583
Different spelling!

453
00:21:57,249 --> 00:21:59,291
Narrator:
Alternate personalities
leave evidence

454
00:21:59,375 --> 00:22:01,667
of their existence
all over the place.

455
00:22:01,750 --> 00:22:04,333
Teacher reports,
social service records,

456
00:22:04,416 --> 00:22:06,792
medical charts, journals,

457
00:22:06,875 --> 00:22:09,124
diaries, drawings.

458
00:22:09,208 --> 00:22:11,958
All are pieces
of the puzzle
that reveal the picture

459
00:22:12,041 --> 00:22:15,500
of a divided,
often fragmented mind.

460
00:22:15,583 --> 00:22:17,833
These constitute
the evidence needed to show

461
00:22:17,917 --> 00:22:20,708
that Multiple Personality
Disorder existed

462
00:22:20,792 --> 00:22:23,833
years before the diagnosis
was even considered.

463
00:22:23,917 --> 00:22:25,917
They're proof that
the interviewer

464
00:22:25,999 --> 00:22:28,249
did not create
the disorder.

465
00:22:29,541 --> 00:22:31,458
(applause)

466
00:22:31,541 --> 00:22:33,917
Gibney: So when you
start to present
some of your findings

467
00:22:33,999 --> 00:22:36,041
-to other psychiatric
colleagues...
-Dorothy: Yeah.

468
00:22:36,124 --> 00:22:39,625
...what was their reaction?
Was it welcoming?

469
00:22:39,708 --> 00:22:41,958
Oh sure. (laughs) No.

470
00:22:42,041 --> 00:22:44,917
If you were
an esteemed clinician,

471
00:22:44,999 --> 00:22:48,166
researcher, psychologist,
psychiatrist,

472
00:22:48,249 --> 00:22:49,833
you did not take that seriously.

473
00:22:49,917 --> 00:22:52,792
That was a bogus diagnosis.

474
00:22:52,875 --> 00:22:54,999
Dorothy:
I got ridiculed a lot

475
00:22:55,083 --> 00:22:57,208
at Yale, where I showed

476
00:22:57,291 --> 00:23:02,541
some of the most poignant
pictures of small children,

477
00:23:02,625 --> 00:23:04,625
and you saw them switch,

478
00:23:04,708 --> 00:23:08,208
and you could give
the history of what
had happened to them.

479
00:23:08,291 --> 00:23:11,500
Even when they saw it right
in front of their faces,

480
00:23:11,583 --> 00:23:13,291
the head of one of
the departments said,

481
00:23:13,375 --> 00:23:16,667
"There must be
another explanation."

482
00:23:16,750 --> 00:23:18,208
(laughs) And so I thought,

483
00:23:18,291 --> 00:23:22,208
"Tell me what it is.
I'm open to that." But, uh,

484
00:23:22,291 --> 00:23:24,208
so, there was...

485
00:23:24,291 --> 00:23:27,208
Well, I think there
still is a skepticism.

486
00:23:27,291 --> 00:23:30,041
♪ ♪

487
00:23:30,124 --> 00:23:33,875
At Bellevue,
we had a lot of room

488
00:23:33,958 --> 00:23:38,083
to spread out our data
and to videotape

489
00:23:38,166 --> 00:23:40,416
and stuff like that
and then

490
00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:44,249
they hired someone who was
very hostile to our work

491
00:23:44,333 --> 00:23:48,458
and took away
all our space,
and, eventually, I left.

492
00:23:51,416 --> 00:23:54,541
(machine humming)

493
00:23:55,166 --> 00:23:57,291
(footsteps)

494
00:24:05,958 --> 00:24:07,541
H, I, J...

495
00:24:09,166 --> 00:24:12,625
These files are filled
with death row inmates,

496
00:24:12,708 --> 00:24:15,416
or evaluations
that we've done

497
00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:18,458
on murderers who
were going to trial.

498
00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:21,083
(rattling)

499
00:24:21,166 --> 00:24:24,416
There are also records
of what we discovered

500
00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:26,958
and then what the law
was willing to accept.

501
00:24:27,041 --> 00:24:29,208
♪ ♪

502
00:24:29,291 --> 00:24:32,875
-(typing)
-(indistinct chatter)

503
00:24:32,958 --> 00:24:35,166
Man 1:
She was just snatched
off the street...

504
00:24:36,375 --> 00:24:38,041
Man 2: Found a body...

505
00:24:41,833 --> 00:24:43,625
Man 3:
Possibility of
strangulation...

506
00:24:43,708 --> 00:24:45,833
Man 4: You would not
be able to recognize
the face of the body.

507
00:24:45,917 --> 00:24:47,625
Man 5:
Postmortem mutilation
of the victims...

508
00:24:47,708 --> 00:24:49,917
Man 6:
It is one of the most
significant arrests...

509
00:24:49,999 --> 00:24:51,458
Arthur J. Shawcross...

510
00:24:51,541 --> 00:24:54,416
Served 15 years in prison for
the murder of two children.

511
00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:56,249
1987, he was
released on parole.

512
00:24:56,333 --> 00:24:58,541
Man 7:
He is a severely
emotionally disturbed man.

513
00:24:58,625 --> 00:25:02,291
Woman:

514
00:25:02,375 --> 00:25:04,750
Whether this defendant
was legally insane

515
00:25:04,833 --> 00:25:08,208
is a question of fact
for you to decide.

516
00:25:12,041 --> 00:25:14,500
Narrator:
Arthur Shawcross was
preparing to go to trial

517
00:25:14,583 --> 00:25:16,458
in Rochester, New York.

518
00:25:16,541 --> 00:25:18,625
Before I even laid
eyes on the defendant,

519
00:25:18,708 --> 00:25:21,833
his lawyers had obtained
an MRI of his brain.

520
00:25:21,917 --> 00:25:24,041
The MRI had shown
that at the very tip

521
00:25:24,124 --> 00:25:27,875
of his right temporal lobe
was a small fluid cyst.

522
00:25:27,958 --> 00:25:29,333
♪ ♪

523
00:25:29,416 --> 00:25:32,041
The brain is
a very sensitive organ.

524
00:25:32,124 --> 00:25:35,333
The tiniest scar
or tumor or cyst

525
00:25:35,416 --> 00:25:36,833
can, under certain
circumstances,

526
00:25:36,917 --> 00:25:39,750
trigger abnormal
electric activity

527
00:25:39,833 --> 00:25:42,708
and seizures
associated with bizarre,

528
00:25:42,792 --> 00:25:44,999
animalistic behaviors.

529
00:25:46,792 --> 00:25:49,208
Here is the frontal lobe,

530
00:25:49,291 --> 00:25:52,416
and the frontal
lobes restrain.

531
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:54,500
They're the part
that kind of says,

532
00:25:54,583 --> 00:25:56,333
"Well, I might want
another piece of cake,

533
00:25:56,416 --> 00:25:57,917
but I'm not gonna have it."

534
00:25:57,999 --> 00:26:02,041
Or, "I might like
to rape this lady, but
maybe I can find some...

535
00:26:02,124 --> 00:26:05,375
more appropriate
(laughs) whatever."

536
00:26:05,458 --> 00:26:08,500
There's a deep part
of the brain called

537
00:26:08,583 --> 00:26:10,041
the limbic system.

538
00:26:10,124 --> 00:26:13,166
This limbic system
has to do with food,

539
00:26:13,249 --> 00:26:15,541
with sex, with anger,

540
00:26:15,625 --> 00:26:17,041
with you name it.

541
00:26:17,124 --> 00:26:20,041
It's the very primitive
part of the brain.

542
00:26:20,124 --> 00:26:23,166
There are a lot of connections
between the lobes

543
00:26:23,249 --> 00:26:25,458
and the limbic system.

544
00:26:25,541 --> 00:26:28,458
I think of it as
reins on a horse.

545
00:26:28,541 --> 00:26:30,750
So, with Shawcross,

546
00:26:30,833 --> 00:26:33,999
the cyst in his
temporal lobe

547
00:26:34,083 --> 00:26:37,416
would excite
the limbic system,

548
00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:40,249
and put it out of whack.

549
00:26:40,333 --> 00:26:42,833
But then, Jonathan Pincus
said, "Dorothy,

550
00:26:42,917 --> 00:26:45,541
what about the scars
in the frontal lobe?"

551
00:26:45,625 --> 00:26:47,583
♪ ♪

552
00:26:47,667 --> 00:26:51,249
And, you know, it's incredible.

553
00:26:51,333 --> 00:26:54,917
The reins on the horse
had been cut,

554
00:26:54,999 --> 00:26:57,083
and he was triggered.

555
00:26:57,166 --> 00:26:59,416
If somebody said,
"I'll tell the police,"

556
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:01,500
or, "I'll tell
your mother."

557
00:27:01,583 --> 00:27:05,667
That would snap him,
and he would kill.

558
00:27:09,667 --> 00:27:12,124
-Dorothy: Do you know me?
No? I'm Dr. Lewis.
-No.

559
00:27:12,208 --> 00:27:15,041
Would it be okay to talk
with you a little bit? Yeah?

560
00:27:15,124 --> 00:27:18,375
I videotaped
Arthur Shawcross, yes.

561
00:27:18,458 --> 00:27:20,708
Yeah. Oh, he was a character.

562
00:27:21,667 --> 00:27:24,875
Dorothy:

563
00:27:31,208 --> 00:27:32,917
And, you know...

564
00:27:50,541 --> 00:27:53,249
(birds chirping,
animals calling)

565
00:28:01,208 --> 00:28:03,166
I just...

566
00:28:03,249 --> 00:28:04,750
Dorothy:
From day one, I said,

567
00:28:04,833 --> 00:28:07,333
"I think he has
temporal lobe seizures

568
00:28:07,416 --> 00:28:09,291
from everything
he told me."

569
00:28:09,375 --> 00:28:11,999
The person may see
very bright lights,

570
00:28:12,083 --> 00:28:15,625
the person may get nauseated,
the person...

571
00:28:15,708 --> 00:28:18,667
may feel a headache
or dizzy,

572
00:28:18,750 --> 00:28:21,124
followed by sleep.

573
00:28:39,416 --> 00:28:42,124
Dorothy:
What would happen is
the girl would be in his car

574
00:28:42,208 --> 00:28:44,541
or his van,

575
00:28:44,625 --> 00:28:46,291
and he would kill her,

576
00:28:46,375 --> 00:28:48,750
and he'd fall sound asleep.

577
00:28:48,833 --> 00:28:50,541
And he'd wake up,

578
00:28:50,625 --> 00:28:53,458
and it was kinda, "Oops.
I must've done it again."

579
00:28:54,958 --> 00:28:56,958
Shawcross:

580
00:29:02,833 --> 00:29:05,375
(police chatter)

581
00:29:05,458 --> 00:29:08,208
Yeager:
Something that was telling
about how his brain worked

582
00:29:08,291 --> 00:29:11,375
was we interviewed
the wife separately,

583
00:29:11,458 --> 00:29:13,999
and she did not believe
he had done anything bad.

584
00:29:14,083 --> 00:29:16,583
She saw him as
this loving man

585
00:29:16,667 --> 00:29:20,333
who worked nights.
He was a cook
in a cafeteria.

586
00:29:20,416 --> 00:29:22,750
And then he would be done
early in the morning,

587
00:29:22,833 --> 00:29:25,208
and our best guess was if he
was gonna commit a murder,

588
00:29:25,291 --> 00:29:27,750
it would be sometime
in the dark in
the middle of the night

589
00:29:27,833 --> 00:29:29,792
or towards dawn.

590
00:29:29,875 --> 00:29:31,708
And he would tell his wife,

591
00:29:31,792 --> 00:29:34,958
"You know, there's
a serial murderer around.
Don't go out."

592
00:29:35,041 --> 00:29:37,667
(laughs) So,
when she told us that,

593
00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:39,792
you know, at that point,
we had an inkling

594
00:29:39,875 --> 00:29:42,208
that there was
something not right.

595
00:29:42,291 --> 00:29:44,458
Dorothy:

596
00:29:50,792 --> 00:29:52,500
(in falsetto): Bessie.

597
00:29:52,583 --> 00:29:54,208
Bessie!

598
00:29:58,792 --> 00:30:00,208
(paper crinkling)

599
00:30:04,166 --> 00:30:06,999
Narrator:
It became clear that
Arthur Shawcross experienced

600
00:30:07,083 --> 00:30:09,041
dissociative states.

601
00:30:09,124 --> 00:30:12,249
At these times, he would
hear his mother in his head,

602
00:30:12,333 --> 00:30:15,249
berating him and the women
he was seeing.

603
00:30:15,333 --> 00:30:18,333
No one was good enough
for Artie. They should die.

604
00:30:19,166 --> 00:30:22,083
Dorothy:

605
00:30:24,333 --> 00:30:26,708
-I hurt all of them.
-Dorothy: What?

606
00:30:32,875 --> 00:30:34,041
(scoffs)

607
00:30:38,917 --> 00:30:41,041
Dorothy:

608
00:30:54,708 --> 00:30:57,875
Dorothy:
He lifted up his fist.

609
00:30:59,625 --> 00:31:02,625
There was no way
that I could get out,

610
00:31:02,708 --> 00:31:06,583
and I thought that he
was going to attack me.

611
00:31:08,625 --> 00:31:10,249
Dorothy:
A knife?

612
00:31:17,166 --> 00:31:18,958
(sighs)

613
00:31:23,833 --> 00:31:25,291
Dorothy:

614
00:31:25,792 --> 00:31:27,041
(sighs)

615
00:31:27,124 --> 00:31:30,249
Dorothy:
Who are you cutting?

616
00:31:30,333 --> 00:31:32,208
Dorothy:
One of his victims

617
00:31:32,291 --> 00:31:34,999
had been sliced
from her neck

618
00:31:35,083 --> 00:31:37,541
all the way down
to her pubic area.

619
00:31:37,625 --> 00:31:41,083
-(police chatter)
-(siren)

620
00:31:41,166 --> 00:31:42,958
Dorothy:

621
00:31:44,792 --> 00:31:46,999
(in childish voice):

622
00:31:47,875 --> 00:31:48,958
Dorothy:

623
00:31:49,041 --> 00:31:50,249
(whimpers)

624
00:31:51,792 --> 00:31:53,958
Where is she biting you, Art?

625
00:31:55,291 --> 00:31:57,249
Art, Art, where is she--

626
00:31:57,333 --> 00:31:58,625
Dorothy:

627
00:31:59,333 --> 00:32:00,999
(whimpers)

628
00:32:04,958 --> 00:32:07,375
Narrator:
I had no question
that Mr. Shawcross

629
00:32:07,458 --> 00:32:10,416
had been severely abused.

630
00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:12,375
School records
described his mother

631
00:32:12,458 --> 00:32:14,750
as punishing and rejecting.

632
00:32:14,833 --> 00:32:18,041
In grade school,
the young Arthur
cowered under radiators

633
00:32:18,124 --> 00:32:21,708
-while the other
children sang songs.
-(distant singing)

634
00:32:21,792 --> 00:32:23,500
Psychological tests revealed

635
00:32:23,583 --> 00:32:25,583
a seriously disturbed child,

636
00:32:25,667 --> 00:32:28,291
lost in a fantasy in
which he perceived himself

637
00:32:28,375 --> 00:32:30,958
a new person.

638
00:32:31,041 --> 00:32:32,708
(normal voice):

639
00:32:51,291 --> 00:32:52,958
Opening arguments
began today

640
00:32:53,041 --> 00:32:55,625
in the Shawcross murder trial,
and late this afternoon,

641
00:32:55,708 --> 00:32:57,291
the first witnesses
were called to the stand.

642
00:32:57,375 --> 00:32:59,583
Defense Attorney
Thomas Cocuzzi

643
00:32:59,667 --> 00:33:01,500
contends that his
client's sanity

644
00:33:01,583 --> 00:33:03,875
is in question.
Cocuzzi told jurors

645
00:33:03,958 --> 00:33:06,124
that he will put
an expert psychiatrist,

646
00:33:06,208 --> 00:33:07,750
Dr. Dorothy Lewis,
on the stand.

647
00:33:07,833 --> 00:33:09,416
Thomas Cocuzzi:
And you're going to hear aspects

648
00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:11,917
of his medical records
and his school records

649
00:33:11,999 --> 00:33:13,708
and his prison records...

650
00:33:14,917 --> 00:33:17,458
reflecting his behavior

651
00:33:17,541 --> 00:33:19,958
not since his arrest,

652
00:33:20,041 --> 00:33:21,458
but throughout his life.

653
00:33:21,541 --> 00:33:25,083
-Gibney: You were
testifying for the defense.
-Yes, I was.

654
00:33:25,166 --> 00:33:26,999
But what's
interesting with him--

655
00:33:27,083 --> 00:33:28,792
Gibney:
To keep him from
being executed?

656
00:33:28,875 --> 00:33:31,041
Well, not really
'cause it was New York,

657
00:33:31,124 --> 00:33:34,333
and they don't execute
people in New York.

658
00:33:34,416 --> 00:33:36,750
But the defense was arguing

659
00:33:36,833 --> 00:33:40,458
he should be
in an institution,
not in prison.

660
00:33:42,750 --> 00:33:45,458
And I had said
to the lawyers,

661
00:33:45,541 --> 00:33:48,041
"We're gonna be
educating the public.

662
00:33:48,124 --> 00:33:50,583
"Look, you can show
the jury pictures

663
00:33:50,667 --> 00:33:52,500
"of the MRI.

664
00:33:52,583 --> 00:33:54,458
"You can see the cyst.

665
00:33:54,541 --> 00:33:57,667
"You can see the scars
in the frontal lobe.

666
00:33:57,750 --> 00:34:01,416
Go with that."
And they didn't.

667
00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:07,333
Instead, they ran with
the dissociative symptoms.

668
00:34:08,249 --> 00:34:10,999
Dorothy (on video):

669
00:34:11,625 --> 00:34:14,583
(in falsetto):

670
00:34:14,667 --> 00:34:18,458
But that's a much tougher
diagnosis for a jury.

671
00:34:18,541 --> 00:34:21,708
I mean, it, it
just seems so fantastic.

672
00:34:21,792 --> 00:34:23,958
Dorothy (on video):

673
00:34:26,583 --> 00:34:27,667
Dorothy: 11?

674
00:34:32,750 --> 00:34:35,291
-Shawcross (on video):
-Dorothy (on video): No?

675
00:34:35,375 --> 00:34:37,208
Narrator:
I had been tricked.

676
00:34:37,291 --> 00:34:39,958
What about
the neurological findings?

677
00:34:40,041 --> 00:34:41,416
By the time
I took the stand,

678
00:34:41,500 --> 00:34:43,583
it was clear that
Shawcross' attorneys

679
00:34:43,667 --> 00:34:47,166
were not going to
produce a neurologist.

680
00:34:47,249 --> 00:34:50,458
Your Honor, I was lied to,
and therefore,

681
00:34:50,541 --> 00:34:53,750
I cannot credibly testify

682
00:34:53,833 --> 00:34:57,291
without clarifying
what I was told,

683
00:34:57,375 --> 00:34:59,416
what I was told
was being done,

684
00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:03,208
-and then what I...
-Burr: Dorothy had a hard
time on the witness stand.

685
00:35:05,375 --> 00:35:07,541
She was always involved
in so many things.

686
00:35:07,625 --> 00:35:10,583
She would come to
wherever the hearing was,

687
00:35:10,667 --> 00:35:13,416
and she wouldn't have sort of

688
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:15,541
gathered her thoughts and,

689
00:35:15,625 --> 00:35:17,999
you know, kinda
systematized her thinking.

690
00:35:18,083 --> 00:35:21,375
Dorothy's not linear, um.

691
00:35:21,458 --> 00:35:24,291
And that's part of her genius.

692
00:35:24,375 --> 00:35:26,875
But it's also part of...

693
00:35:26,999 --> 00:35:28,999
frustration in trying to,

694
00:35:29,083 --> 00:35:30,999
to bring her into a system

695
00:35:31,083 --> 00:35:34,291
that requires linearity,
like the legal system.

696
00:35:34,375 --> 00:35:36,458
-(indistinct)
-Dorothy: Your Honor,
may I please request

697
00:35:36,541 --> 00:35:38,416
a recess for 15 minutes

698
00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:43,124
because I do not feel
prepared to go on right now.

699
00:35:43,208 --> 00:35:45,124
Narrator:
I was repeatedly
chastised by the judge

700
00:35:45,208 --> 00:35:48,416
for not responding
directly to questions
with a succinct

701
00:35:48,500 --> 00:35:49,958
yes or no.

702
00:35:50,041 --> 00:35:53,416
I looked clumsy
and disorganized.

703
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:57,500
This is not the way
psychiatry works.
It is not the way...

704
00:35:57,583 --> 00:36:00,625
Narrator:
The prosecution hired
Park Dietz, one of the most

705
00:36:00,708 --> 00:36:03,792
highly regarded forensic
psychiatrists in the nation,

706
00:36:03,875 --> 00:36:08,041
a man who had been
a consultant
at the FBI and CIA.

707
00:36:08,124 --> 00:36:11,999
He was a handsome,
confident man who
never appeared hassled.

708
00:36:12,083 --> 00:36:14,625
It was very clear what was
happening on the videotapes,

709
00:36:14,708 --> 00:36:16,792
that Dr. Lewis was inviting him

710
00:36:16,875 --> 00:36:18,999
to play various performances.

711
00:36:19,083 --> 00:36:21,291
She invited him
to play the role

712
00:36:21,375 --> 00:36:23,166
of his mother,
even telling him that

713
00:36:23,249 --> 00:36:26,875
he can take on the role of his
mother and talk like his mother,

714
00:36:26,958 --> 00:36:29,999
and he even does it in
a falsetto voice.

715
00:36:30,083 --> 00:36:32,999
Gibney:
Do you buy the whole idea of
Multiple Personality Disorder?

716
00:36:33,083 --> 00:36:35,583
No. (laughs)
I think it's a hoax.

717
00:36:36,541 --> 00:36:38,500
I think it is a sad fact

718
00:36:38,583 --> 00:36:40,500
that people in my profession

719
00:36:40,583 --> 00:36:43,583
were so eager
to find something

720
00:36:43,667 --> 00:36:46,999
that they did a form
of interviewing

721
00:36:47,083 --> 00:36:49,458
that can cause
vulnerable people

722
00:36:49,541 --> 00:36:52,583
to believe they have more
than one personality.

723
00:36:53,208 --> 00:36:55,667
Dorothy:

724
00:37:01,124 --> 00:37:04,208
Dietz:
Dr. Lewis subjected
Shawcross

725
00:37:04,291 --> 00:37:09,083
to a kind of a hypnosis
during part of her
interview.

726
00:37:09,999 --> 00:37:11,792
Dorothy:

727
00:37:14,416 --> 00:37:17,375
Dorothy: You don't like
to use hypnosis
if you can avoid it.

728
00:37:17,458 --> 00:37:22,833
But it was early
in my career
at the Shawcross trial.

729
00:37:22,917 --> 00:37:25,041
Hypnosis is questionable.

730
00:37:25,124 --> 00:37:28,625
People who can be hypnotized
can also-- are very suggestible.

731
00:37:28,708 --> 00:37:31,708
If you do use hypnosis,
you want to

732
00:37:31,792 --> 00:37:34,249
confirm what was said,

733
00:37:34,333 --> 00:37:36,416
either from other relatives,

734
00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:39,041
friends, hospital records,
school records.

735
00:37:39,124 --> 00:37:42,208
You just can't
believe everything.

736
00:37:42,291 --> 00:37:44,750
Dietz:
During a hypnotic session,

737
00:37:44,833 --> 00:37:49,500
he identified himself as
a 13th century cannibal.

738
00:37:52,667 --> 00:37:54,291
Yeah?

739
00:37:59,375 --> 00:38:00,999
Dorothy:

740
00:38:05,083 --> 00:38:07,708
He exhibited none
of that with me.

741
00:38:09,041 --> 00:38:10,833
Dietz:

742
00:38:16,667 --> 00:38:18,041
Dietz:
He answered to his name,

743
00:38:18,124 --> 00:38:20,875
as he had to everybody else
throughout his entire life,

744
00:38:20,958 --> 00:38:22,291
except Dorothy Lewis.

745
00:38:22,375 --> 00:38:24,792
And he understood how,
where, when, and why

746
00:38:24,875 --> 00:38:27,083
he did every one
of those murders.

747
00:38:39,625 --> 00:38:42,875
Any popular notion
that serial killers

748
00:38:42,958 --> 00:38:45,833
are crazy people is just wrong.

749
00:38:45,917 --> 00:38:48,999
We have no way to
know how many men

750
00:38:49,083 --> 00:38:51,958
have as their favorite
sexual fantasy

751
00:38:52,041 --> 00:38:53,625
strangling a woman to death

752
00:38:53,708 --> 00:38:56,083
until her tongue
protrudes from her mouth

753
00:38:56,166 --> 00:38:59,458
and you hear the last breath
leave her body.

754
00:38:59,541 --> 00:39:02,999
But I bet it isn't related
only to those few men

755
00:39:03,083 --> 00:39:05,249
who do that routinely.

756
00:39:06,750 --> 00:39:07,999
Gibney:
This was a guy who did

757
00:39:08,083 --> 00:39:10,166
some pretty grisly
things to his victims.

758
00:39:10,249 --> 00:39:11,958
Well, he...

759
00:39:12,041 --> 00:39:14,917
ate the vagina of one of them,

760
00:39:14,999 --> 00:39:16,999
and, uh, you know,

761
00:39:17,083 --> 00:39:20,792
I thought that was pretty
bizarre, and I've seen a lot.

762
00:39:20,875 --> 00:39:22,917
Nobody with
a taste for that.

763
00:39:31,041 --> 00:39:32,500
Dorothy:
On the stand,

764
00:39:32,583 --> 00:39:35,375
Park Dietz said
he ate the vagina

765
00:39:35,458 --> 00:39:37,333
to hide the DNA.

766
00:39:37,416 --> 00:39:40,041
Surely, Doctor,
there must be an easier way

767
00:39:40,124 --> 00:39:42,875
to get rid of
the evidence. (laughs)

768
00:39:42,958 --> 00:39:44,999
♪ ♪

769
00:39:45,083 --> 00:39:46,708
Dietz:
Ultimately,
it was my opinion

770
00:39:46,792 --> 00:39:48,750
that Shawcross
was not insane

771
00:39:48,833 --> 00:39:51,375
under the law, and that
he knew what he was doing,

772
00:39:51,458 --> 00:39:53,208
knew it was wrong.

773
00:39:53,291 --> 00:39:54,999
Gibney:
"What kind of sane person

774
00:39:55,083 --> 00:39:57,249
would eat the vaginas
of his victims?"

775
00:39:57,333 --> 00:40:01,625
I guess would be what
an average person
like me might say.

776
00:40:01,708 --> 00:40:03,833
One has nothing
to do with the other.

777
00:40:03,917 --> 00:40:09,124
Whether you are responsible
for a murder you did

778
00:40:09,208 --> 00:40:13,041
is unrelated to whether
you once ate a raw rabbit

779
00:40:13,124 --> 00:40:15,291
or a raw vagina.

780
00:40:15,999 --> 00:40:19,458
Cold, calculating,

781
00:40:19,541 --> 00:40:21,833
and remorseless.

782
00:40:21,917 --> 00:40:23,541
For whom killing

783
00:40:23,625 --> 00:40:26,416
was not an emotional
disturbance.

784
00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:29,124
Yeager:
Siragusa was the prosecutor
on the case,

785
00:40:29,208 --> 00:40:33,416
and he was running
for office.

786
00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:36,249
And so, I think
she was the recipient

787
00:40:36,333 --> 00:40:38,667
of his need to

788
00:40:38,750 --> 00:40:40,541
show that he's
a tough guy on crime.

789
00:40:40,625 --> 00:40:42,875
-And you said--
-Dorothy: Said that they
might've been caused...

790
00:40:42,958 --> 00:40:46,999
-by a stroke.
-Excuse me, Doctor.
Can you answer--

791
00:40:47,083 --> 00:40:49,958
Can you try, Doctor,
just to answer our question?

792
00:40:50,041 --> 00:40:51,833
-Shh.
-Can you hear me, Doctor?

793
00:40:51,917 --> 00:40:54,917
Yeager:
And he was gonna put her
into the mud because that

794
00:40:54,999 --> 00:40:57,875
would help his cause,
and he did get elected.

795
00:40:57,958 --> 00:40:59,541
I would never say anything

796
00:40:59,625 --> 00:41:02,458
about Dr. Lewis other
than to comment that

797
00:41:02,541 --> 00:41:05,541
I think her performance in
court speaks for itself.

798
00:41:05,625 --> 00:41:08,416
You know, Dorothy paved the way

799
00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:10,458
for a whole generation

800
00:41:10,541 --> 00:41:14,375
of mental health professionals
who followed in her steps.

801
00:41:14,458 --> 00:41:18,249
But she was a pioneer,
and pioneers are often...

802
00:41:18,333 --> 00:41:20,124
you know, not treated well.

803
00:41:20,208 --> 00:41:22,625
I think there was
an intuitive recognition

804
00:41:22,708 --> 00:41:25,208
on the part of prosecutors, uh,

805
00:41:26,041 --> 00:41:28,208
that what she had to say

806
00:41:29,875 --> 00:41:32,875
bore heavily on the truth.

807
00:41:32,958 --> 00:41:35,291
And the truth is not

808
00:41:35,375 --> 00:41:37,792
what some prosecutors wanted.

809
00:41:37,875 --> 00:41:41,833
She swallowed
the stories he told
hook, line, and sinker.

810
00:41:41,917 --> 00:41:43,875
Gibney:
So when you were
on the stand,

811
00:41:43,958 --> 00:41:46,667
the attorney
on the other side,
the prosecuting attorney

812
00:41:46,750 --> 00:41:49,041
-was making fun of you
for thinking that there was
-Yes.

813
00:41:49,124 --> 00:41:52,999
-such a thing
as multiple personalities.
-Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

814
00:41:53,083 --> 00:41:55,917
Or for anything else
(laughs) you know.

815
00:41:55,999 --> 00:41:58,708
The local radio station
made up jingles about me.

816
00:41:58,792 --> 00:42:01,083
DJ:
The boys have written
a song in Dorothy's honor

817
00:42:01,166 --> 00:42:03,083
and I hope it
comes out alright.

818
00:42:03,166 --> 00:42:05,500
♪ Hey, look who's
on the stand again ♪

819
00:42:05,583 --> 00:42:07,083
(country music)

820
00:42:07,166 --> 00:42:09,750
♪ Back to defend
her killer friend ♪

821
00:42:10,917 --> 00:42:13,166
♪ Got her
psychiatry degree ♪

822
00:42:13,249 --> 00:42:14,917
♪ Hoo Lord! ♪

823
00:42:14,999 --> 00:42:18,583
♪ Now, she's on
Arthur's side you see ♪

824
00:42:18,667 --> 00:42:22,541
♪ She tries to
justify what's wrong ♪

825
00:42:22,625 --> 00:42:25,124
♪ Because his mother played
with his dong, hey, hey! ♪

826
00:42:25,208 --> 00:42:27,708
♪ Yakety yak,
Dorothy's back ♪

827
00:42:27,792 --> 00:42:29,541
-Yeah.
-Gibney: They were making
fun of you because--

828
00:42:29,625 --> 00:42:31,208
just because
you were on his side,
or because

829
00:42:31,291 --> 00:42:33,792
you were evincing
a particular theory about him?

830
00:42:35,667 --> 00:42:37,583
How about all of the above?

831
00:42:37,667 --> 00:42:39,833
All of the above,
you know, uh...

832
00:42:43,583 --> 00:42:44,708
Yeah.

833
00:42:44,792 --> 00:42:46,166
Members of the jury,

834
00:42:46,249 --> 00:42:48,291
how do you find
in the matter of

835
00:42:48,375 --> 00:42:51,667
the People of the State of
New York vs. Arthur Shawcross?

836
00:42:51,750 --> 00:42:53,541
Foreman:
Guilty.

837
00:42:53,625 --> 00:42:55,833
Narrator:
It took the jury
less than two hours

838
00:42:55,917 --> 00:42:57,541
to find Mr. Shawcross sane

839
00:42:57,625 --> 00:43:00,375
and guilty of
the murders of 10 women.

840
00:43:00,458 --> 00:43:02,750
It took me three years
to recover

841
00:43:02,833 --> 00:43:04,917
from my three weeks
on the stand.

842
00:43:04,999 --> 00:43:07,792
No one had believed
a word I said.

843
00:43:07,875 --> 00:43:11,124
-Reporter: Do you think
Dorothy Lewis let you down?
-Don't block me, please.

844
00:43:11,208 --> 00:43:14,166
I have no comment
on Dr. Dorothy Lewis.

845
00:43:14,249 --> 00:43:17,999
-Thank you.
-(door shutting)

846
00:43:18,083 --> 00:43:20,458
Dorothy:
What are you doing?
What's happening?

847
00:43:20,541 --> 00:43:23,333
(whimpering) No more.

848
00:43:25,958 --> 00:43:29,208
Narrator:
Was Arthur Shawcross crazy
when he murdered his victims

849
00:43:29,291 --> 00:43:32,249
and consumed
their genitalia?

850
00:43:32,333 --> 00:43:35,583
Of course. He had to be.

851
00:43:35,667 --> 00:43:37,917
Insane?

852
00:43:37,999 --> 00:43:40,166
Not necessarily.

853
00:43:43,500 --> 00:43:46,667
(birds chirping)

854
00:43:48,833 --> 00:43:51,083
-Gibney: When a defense
attorney hires you...
-Dorothy: Yeah? Mm-hmm.

855
00:43:51,166 --> 00:43:53,625
-in the legal system, for what
purpose do they hire you?
-Dorothy: Yeah.

856
00:43:53,708 --> 00:43:55,291
Well, uh, you know,

857
00:43:55,375 --> 00:43:57,792
I don't really care
for what purpose

858
00:43:57,875 --> 00:44:00,792
'cause I do
the same evaluation.

859
00:44:00,875 --> 00:44:03,083
They're probably
hoping that I will find

860
00:44:03,166 --> 00:44:06,333
the person is stark
raving mad. (laughs)
But, uh...

861
00:44:07,792 --> 00:44:10,917
The law has a lot to learn
from psychiatry.

862
00:44:10,999 --> 00:44:15,833
And instead, psychiatry
accepts the legal definition

863
00:44:15,917 --> 00:44:19,249
of what's crazy
and what isn't crazy.

864
00:44:19,333 --> 00:44:21,291
They have a notion
of competence,

865
00:44:21,375 --> 00:44:23,625
and a notion of insanity,

866
00:44:23,708 --> 00:44:27,750
both of which don't make
sense psychiatrically.

867
00:44:27,833 --> 00:44:31,124
There are different
levels of competence.

868
00:44:31,208 --> 00:44:33,333
"Oh, well, I know
what a courtroom is.

869
00:44:33,416 --> 00:44:36,416
A courtroom is where there's
a judge and there's a jury."

870
00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:38,833
"And do you know what
you're accused of?"

871
00:44:38,917 --> 00:44:41,500
"Oh yeah.
I'm accused of robbery,

872
00:44:41,583 --> 00:44:42,999
of murder, and..."

873
00:44:43,083 --> 00:44:46,500
Done, you know?
He's competent.

874
00:44:46,583 --> 00:44:48,583
This is the law, period.

875
00:44:50,375 --> 00:44:52,333
Burr:
In the Middle Ages
in England,

876
00:44:52,416 --> 00:44:54,875
they had the death penalty,
and the legal system

877
00:44:54,958 --> 00:44:58,166
had the view if
somebody had become mad,

878
00:44:58,249 --> 00:45:01,500
that madness itself
was enough punishment.

879
00:45:01,583 --> 00:45:03,999
That's part of
the English common law

880
00:45:04,083 --> 00:45:08,416
that came with the English
colonists to North America.

881
00:45:08,500 --> 00:45:10,333
At some point though,

882
00:45:10,416 --> 00:45:13,291
in death penalty cases
in the United States,

883
00:45:13,375 --> 00:45:15,625
that notion got lost.

884
00:45:15,708 --> 00:45:18,333
That madness was
punishment enough,

885
00:45:18,416 --> 00:45:21,792
and people could be executed

886
00:45:21,875 --> 00:45:24,833
despite being very psychotic.

887
00:45:26,041 --> 00:45:28,667
And as late as the 1950s,

888
00:45:28,750 --> 00:45:31,875
the US Supreme Court had
examined a case like that,

889
00:45:31,958 --> 00:45:33,875
and said that doesn't
offend the Constitution.

890
00:45:33,958 --> 00:45:36,249
It's not cruel
and unusual to do that.

891
00:45:37,708 --> 00:45:40,208
Dorothy:
You're competent
to be executed

892
00:45:40,291 --> 00:45:43,375
if you know what you've
been found guilty of,

893
00:45:43,458 --> 00:45:46,750
and if you know what
it is to be executed.

894
00:45:49,124 --> 00:45:51,625
Now, that's a pretty low bar,
wouldn't you say?

895
00:45:53,875 --> 00:45:56,416
By and large,
the law has taken on

896
00:45:56,500 --> 00:45:59,124
the very simple-minded
criterion

897
00:45:59,208 --> 00:46:01,249
that ignores all
that we know now

898
00:46:01,333 --> 00:46:03,999
about how
the human brain works,

899
00:46:04,083 --> 00:46:06,625
about some of the genetics
of disorders.

900
00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:10,667
(applause, cheering)

901
00:46:10,750 --> 00:46:13,541
When Clinton was
running for president,

902
00:46:13,625 --> 00:46:16,124
he was called back
to Arkansas

903
00:46:16,208 --> 00:46:20,750
to sign a death warrant
because he was governor.

904
00:46:20,833 --> 00:46:24,875
Apparently, Ricky Ray was
used to having his dinner

905
00:46:24,958 --> 00:46:29,375
at a certain time and saving
the dessert for later.

906
00:46:29,458 --> 00:46:31,166
And he...

907
00:46:31,249 --> 00:46:33,583
saved his pecan pie

908
00:46:33,667 --> 00:46:36,917
for after the execution.

909
00:46:36,999 --> 00:46:41,458
Now, I would say he didn't know
what it meant to be executed.

910
00:46:41,541 --> 00:46:44,458
But my colleagues found
him perfectly competent

911
00:46:44,541 --> 00:46:46,124
to be executed.

912
00:46:46,208 --> 00:46:48,291
And I don't know
who ate the pie.

913
00:46:48,375 --> 00:46:51,541
(applause, cheering)

914
00:46:55,583 --> 00:46:58,708
♪ ♪

915
00:46:59,917 --> 00:47:01,958
Max (singing):
♪ Mrs. Mooney
has a pie shop ♪

916
00:47:02,041 --> 00:47:05,041
♪ Does good business,
but I've noticed
something weird ♪

917
00:47:05,124 --> 00:47:08,124
♪ Lately, all the neighbors'
cats have disappeared ♪

918
00:47:08,208 --> 00:47:09,667
♪ Wouldn't do in my shop ♪

919
00:47:09,750 --> 00:47:12,416
♪ Just the thought of it's
enough to make you sick ♪

920
00:47:12,500 --> 00:47:15,416
♪ And I'm telling you
them pussycats is quick ♪

921
00:47:15,500 --> 00:47:18,541
♪ No denying times
is hard, sir ♪

922
00:47:18,625 --> 00:47:21,917
♪ Even harder than the worst
pies in London-- ♪

923
00:47:23,833 --> 00:47:25,750
More pies.

924
00:47:25,833 --> 00:47:27,792
More pies.

925
00:47:27,875 --> 00:47:29,375
More pies.

926
00:47:31,416 --> 00:47:33,500
More pies.

927
00:47:33,583 --> 00:47:35,416
Eat the flesh.

928
00:47:35,500 --> 00:47:39,249
♪ Eat his body,
drink his blood ♪

929
00:47:39,333 --> 00:47:42,208
Narrator:
I am haunted by
the prospect of condemning

930
00:47:42,291 --> 00:47:44,833
to death a person
whose upbringing

931
00:47:44,917 --> 00:47:46,667
and brain function
have made it hard,

932
00:47:46,750 --> 00:47:50,249
if not impossible,
for him to control his acts.

933
00:47:50,333 --> 00:47:52,500
Granted, the person
may be a menace.

934
00:47:52,583 --> 00:47:54,917
I have no problem
locking him up

935
00:47:54,999 --> 00:47:56,999
and throwing away the key.

936
00:47:57,083 --> 00:47:59,333
Until we know how to
treat such individuals,

937
00:47:59,416 --> 00:48:01,291
the public
must be protected.

938
00:48:07,999 --> 00:48:09,375
Dorothy:

939
00:48:09,458 --> 00:48:10,667
(bird chirping)

940
00:48:17,208 --> 00:48:21,583
Max was brought to
the prison ward at Bellevue

941
00:48:21,667 --> 00:48:24,541
because this was
the second time

942
00:48:24,625 --> 00:48:27,833
that he had tried
to kill a lover.

943
00:48:27,917 --> 00:48:30,166
♪ ♪

944
00:48:30,249 --> 00:48:33,500
I was called by
one of the doctors

945
00:48:33,583 --> 00:48:36,166
because they
believed that he had

946
00:48:36,249 --> 00:48:38,875
Multiple Personality
Disorder.

947
00:48:38,958 --> 00:48:42,500
I was asked to
confirm the diagnosis,

948
00:48:42,583 --> 00:48:44,249
and then we kinda clicked.

949
00:48:44,333 --> 00:48:47,500
-(Dorothy laughs)
-So, I went to see
him frequently.

950
00:48:47,583 --> 00:48:48,958
Party tonight.

951
00:48:50,124 --> 00:48:52,958
As far as we could tell,
Max had been

952
00:48:53,041 --> 00:48:56,083
tortured by his mother.

953
00:48:56,166 --> 00:48:57,999
Dorothy:
Where would she hit you?

954
00:49:04,541 --> 00:49:06,541
She punched...

955
00:49:06,625 --> 00:49:07,875
she punched and she...

956
00:49:07,958 --> 00:49:10,541
She had big long nails,
and she used to break...

957
00:49:10,625 --> 00:49:13,708
-Dorothy: Really?
-She used to dig
them into your skin.

958
00:49:13,792 --> 00:49:15,958
Do you have any marks
where she hurt you?

959
00:49:16,041 --> 00:49:17,708
Do I have any marks
where she hurt me?

960
00:49:17,792 --> 00:49:19,291
I see marks here,

961
00:49:19,375 --> 00:49:22,208
-little bit I think here, yeah.
-Max: Yeah.

962
00:49:22,291 --> 00:49:25,083
-And also right here.
-Dorothy: Mm-hmm, yeah.

963
00:49:25,166 --> 00:49:26,917
Marks where I had
to kneel on glass.

964
00:49:26,999 --> 00:49:29,792
-Dorothy: What do
you mean, kneel on glass?
-I had broken some,

965
00:49:29,875 --> 00:49:31,500
and she said,
"Well, clean it up."

966
00:49:31,583 --> 00:49:35,083
And so, she pushed me
down on the floor, and I,

967
00:49:35,166 --> 00:49:36,875
you know, there was glass
on the floor, and I said,

968
00:49:36,958 --> 00:49:38,750
"Well, let me get up."
She said, "Clean it up.

969
00:49:38,833 --> 00:49:40,291
You broke it.
Clean it up," she said.

970
00:49:40,375 --> 00:49:43,166
-(slapping, growl)
-Dorothy: Stop it!

971
00:49:44,999 --> 00:49:48,249
-(gibberish)
-Dorothy: ...terrible things.

972
00:49:49,083 --> 00:49:50,583
(gibberish)

973
00:50:03,416 --> 00:50:05,083
(in haughty voice):
But you cannot see him?

974
00:50:05,166 --> 00:50:07,917
Why is that we can see him--
Can you see him?

975
00:50:07,999 --> 00:50:09,875
-Mm, no.
-He's there.

976
00:50:09,958 --> 00:50:11,833
-Who?
-You...

977
00:50:11,917 --> 00:50:14,249
-You cannot see him?
-Dorothy: There was

978
00:50:14,333 --> 00:50:17,625
a very strong, often cruel,

979
00:50:17,708 --> 00:50:19,124
part of him, Kalki,

980
00:50:19,208 --> 00:50:23,541
who was almost
god-like in the way
he viewed himself.

981
00:50:30,917 --> 00:50:32,249
Whatever I do is good.

982
00:50:33,291 --> 00:50:36,124
Dorothy:

983
00:50:38,041 --> 00:50:41,249
He was the one who
stabbed Max's lovers.

984
00:50:43,083 --> 00:50:44,375
It was the game.

985
00:50:44,458 --> 00:50:47,625
(gibberish)

986
00:50:49,625 --> 00:50:51,958
(mumbling)

987
00:50:52,041 --> 00:50:54,333
Dorothy:
And then there's Jabreel,

988
00:50:54,416 --> 00:50:56,875
and Jabreel was an old man.

989
00:50:56,958 --> 00:50:59,875
A Zen monk.

990
00:50:59,958 --> 00:51:02,833
(lightly):
You see? That is love there.
That is love.

991
00:51:02,917 --> 00:51:04,375
She would hold him sometimes...

992
00:51:04,458 --> 00:51:08,625
Dorothy:
He seemed to have developed
as a comforter for Max.

993
00:51:08,708 --> 00:51:12,124
-Max also talked
about a baby.
-(whining)

994
00:51:13,124 --> 00:51:15,041
(whining continues)

995
00:51:15,124 --> 00:51:16,917
Yeager:
He was a very
bright young man

996
00:51:16,999 --> 00:51:19,041
and had some insight

997
00:51:19,124 --> 00:51:21,208
into what was going on
in his head.

998
00:51:21,291 --> 00:51:24,583
So we would say to him,
"Max,

999
00:51:24,667 --> 00:51:27,291
"if a 12-year-old kid
had the same kinds

1000
00:51:27,375 --> 00:51:29,249
"of switching that you have,

1001
00:51:29,333 --> 00:51:31,667
what kinds of questions
would you ask him?"

1002
00:51:32,625 --> 00:51:34,500
I would ask them...

1003
00:51:35,291 --> 00:51:36,583
if they had a place...

1004
00:51:36,667 --> 00:51:38,875
-(water flowing)
-they can go

1005
00:51:38,958 --> 00:51:40,708
that nobody else can go to.

1006
00:51:40,792 --> 00:51:42,500
A place inside themselves

1007
00:51:42,583 --> 00:51:45,124
where nobody else
could go to.

1008
00:51:45,208 --> 00:51:48,333
-(birds chirping)
-That would seem like
that no one else is there.

1009
00:51:48,416 --> 00:51:51,333
And I would say,
"Is it a beach?
Is it trees?"

1010
00:51:51,416 --> 00:51:53,583
I would say, "What is it?
Where do you go?

1011
00:51:53,667 --> 00:51:55,458
"Where do you go when

1012
00:51:55,541 --> 00:51:58,041
you just feel like
going someplace else?"

1013
00:51:58,124 --> 00:52:00,625
♪ ♪

1014
00:52:00,708 --> 00:52:04,083
It's a very special thing to do,
and not many people can do that.

1015
00:52:04,166 --> 00:52:07,750
-Dorothy: So you'd
say it's very special?
-I'd say it's very special.

1016
00:52:07,833 --> 00:52:09,999
Yeager:
And then we would try
it out on the kids,

1017
00:52:10,083 --> 00:52:11,958
and he was spot on.

1018
00:52:12,041 --> 00:52:14,541
That's how bright
and insightful he was,

1019
00:52:14,625 --> 00:52:16,667
but he couldn't help himself.

1020
00:52:16,750 --> 00:52:19,083
-Dorothy: What games
are you playing?
-Hm.

1021
00:52:19,166 --> 00:52:20,792
Dorothy:
The last time
you played games,

1022
00:52:20,875 --> 00:52:23,875
-you got him into
a lot of trouble.
-Hm.

1023
00:52:23,958 --> 00:52:27,416
-Dorothy: What are you
doing, Kalki?
-Hm.

1024
00:52:27,500 --> 00:52:30,792
Don't pull that
"hm" on me.

1025
00:52:30,875 --> 00:52:33,583
-Hello, Kalki. Yeah,
I know you're there.
-I am here.

1026
00:52:33,667 --> 00:52:36,083
I know you're there,
and I know
most people don't

1027
00:52:36,166 --> 00:52:37,999
-talk to you straight.
-Hm.

1028
00:52:38,083 --> 00:52:41,333
But I am miffed.
I thought we had
an agreement.

1029
00:52:41,416 --> 00:52:43,041
You and Jabreel
had an agreement.

1030
00:52:43,124 --> 00:52:46,291
-I thought we did.
I thought we did!
-We did not.

1031
00:52:46,375 --> 00:52:47,917
I thought that went--

1032
00:52:47,999 --> 00:52:50,208
Do you speak any French?

1033
00:52:50,291 --> 00:52:52,500
You know ça va sans dire.

1034
00:52:52,583 --> 00:52:55,541
-It goes without saying.
-Saying. (laughs)

1035
00:52:56,999 --> 00:53:00,917
Maybe we clicked because
I didn't play favorites.

1036
00:53:00,999 --> 00:53:03,958
If you notice, I'm empathic
to every one of them.

1037
00:53:04,041 --> 00:53:06,541
Well, Kalki certainly
has a lot of strength.

1038
00:53:06,625 --> 00:53:08,375
(lightly):
Yes, he is very
strong, isn't he?

1039
00:53:08,458 --> 00:53:12,500
Dorothy:
You never badmouth,
especially the abuser.

1040
00:53:12,583 --> 00:53:15,792
That is-- that's an invitation
to murder.

1041
00:53:15,875 --> 00:53:18,958
-(ominous music)
-(thunder rumbling)

1042
00:53:19,041 --> 00:53:21,708
♪ ♪

1043
00:53:21,792 --> 00:53:24,999
One day,
I came into my office,

1044
00:53:25,083 --> 00:53:29,166
and my secretary
handed me one of these
telephone slips,

1045
00:53:29,249 --> 00:53:30,500
and it said,

1046
00:53:30,583 --> 00:53:33,958
"Mr. Scorsese's
office has called,

1047
00:53:34,041 --> 00:53:36,958
and would like
you to call back."

1048
00:53:37,041 --> 00:53:39,041
So I called back,

1049
00:53:39,124 --> 00:53:41,375
and an assistant
of his said,

1050
00:53:41,458 --> 00:53:48,249
"Mr. Scorsese has discovered
that you see murderers.

1051
00:53:48,333 --> 00:53:51,041
"Robert De Niro is going
to be in a remake

1052
00:53:51,124 --> 00:53:53,958
"of 'Cape Fear,'
and he would like

1053
00:53:54,041 --> 00:53:56,041
"to meet some murderers.

1054
00:53:56,124 --> 00:53:58,041
Can you arrange that?"

1055
00:53:58,124 --> 00:54:00,083
It was so funny.
I felt like,

1056
00:54:00,166 --> 00:54:03,500
would you say,
a casting director?

1057
00:54:03,583 --> 00:54:06,750
So I asked Max.

1058
00:54:06,833 --> 00:54:09,083
He really had attempted
to murder twice.

1059
00:54:09,166 --> 00:54:10,375
Oh yes,
I could talk to him.

1060
00:54:10,458 --> 00:54:12,541
Dorothy: Max said sure,
he would talk with him.

1061
00:54:12,625 --> 00:54:15,875
-I said, "Well,
how about Kalki?"
-(haughty): Yes.

1062
00:54:15,958 --> 00:54:20,291
-"And Jabreel?"
And Jabreel said...
-(lightly): Oh, yes.

1063
00:54:20,375 --> 00:54:23,249
Dorothy:
So we made an arrangement
for De Niro

1064
00:54:23,333 --> 00:54:25,958
to go into the prison ward.

1065
00:54:26,041 --> 00:54:29,166
At first,
Max seemed puzzled.

1066
00:54:29,249 --> 00:54:32,750
And I said, "Max,
you must know him.

1067
00:54:32,833 --> 00:54:34,917
You've seen 'Taxi Driver.'"

1068
00:54:34,999 --> 00:54:38,041
And he said,
"I've never seen 'Taxi Driver.'"

1069
00:54:38,124 --> 00:54:41,249
I said, "Max,
Mr. De Niro's going to make

1070
00:54:41,333 --> 00:54:43,667
"a movie out of a man

1071
00:54:43,750 --> 00:54:45,416
who has trouble
with his temper."

1072
00:54:45,500 --> 00:54:47,041
Oh! (grunts)

1073
00:54:47,124 --> 00:54:49,208
(Dorothy laughing)

1074
00:54:49,291 --> 00:54:51,541
And I said, "I know

1075
00:54:51,625 --> 00:54:53,458
"Kalki has had trouble
with his temper.

1076
00:54:53,541 --> 00:54:55,541
"I would like very much

1077
00:54:55,625 --> 00:54:58,500
for Mr. De Niro
to meet Kalki."

1078
00:54:58,583 --> 00:55:00,208
♪ ♪

1079
00:55:00,291 --> 00:55:05,583
And the next thing I know,
Max really metamorphoses

1080
00:55:05,667 --> 00:55:07,708
to this haughty--

1081
00:55:07,792 --> 00:55:09,792
The chin came up.

1082
00:55:09,875 --> 00:55:12,792
You know,
he really looks different.

1083
00:55:12,875 --> 00:55:16,124
The whole visage is,
you know, different.

1084
00:55:16,208 --> 00:55:17,625
The muscles.

1085
00:55:17,708 --> 00:55:20,458
I said, "Kalki,
this is Mr. De Niro.

1086
00:55:20,541 --> 00:55:23,124
Mr. De Niro,
this is Kalki."

1087
00:55:23,208 --> 00:55:24,625
And Kalki says,

1088
00:55:24,708 --> 00:55:28,667
"Oh, you were so
good in 'Taxi Driver'!"

1089
00:55:31,667 --> 00:55:33,833
Dorothy:
Tell me, what has happened
to your case since--

1090
00:55:33,917 --> 00:55:36,667
No, nothing's happened.
It will take a long time.

1091
00:55:36,750 --> 00:55:38,291
I do not care what happens.

1092
00:55:38,375 --> 00:55:40,291
-I wish they had
the death penalty.
-Oh!

1093
00:55:40,375 --> 00:55:42,833
I wish they had
the death penalty.
I would happily have it.

1094
00:55:42,917 --> 00:55:46,333
-Since wha--
Because when...
-Dorothy: Why?

1095
00:55:46,416 --> 00:55:48,833
(voice breaking):
I-I will tell you why.
Because...

1096
00:55:48,917 --> 00:55:52,166
when a dog goes mad,
you shoot it, don't you?

1097
00:55:52,249 --> 00:55:55,416
And a person's worth
more than a dog,

1098
00:55:55,500 --> 00:55:57,625
and if, and if...

1099
00:55:59,416 --> 00:56:01,500
if you were that kind to a dog,

1100
00:56:01,583 --> 00:56:04,083
why not be that kind
to a human being

1101
00:56:04,166 --> 00:56:06,291
and just shoot him or something?

1102
00:56:06,375 --> 00:56:10,166
Dorothy:
Max had some good lawyers
who cared about him,

1103
00:56:10,249 --> 00:56:13,792
and they asked me
if I would write

1104
00:56:13,875 --> 00:56:18,124
a note saying that he
was no longer dangerous

1105
00:56:18,208 --> 00:56:21,541
and that he should be
discharged from there,

1106
00:56:21,625 --> 00:56:22,917
and I said no.

1107
00:56:22,999 --> 00:56:27,999
He had twice,
in his altered states,

1108
00:56:28,083 --> 00:56:29,792
tried to kill.

1109
00:56:29,875 --> 00:56:32,708
And I had
no reason to believe

1110
00:56:32,792 --> 00:56:35,375
that he wouldn't
do it again.

1111
00:56:35,458 --> 00:56:38,458
And even though we had
a lovely relationship,

1112
00:56:38,541 --> 00:56:40,917
you know, I've seen
enough to know that

1113
00:56:40,999 --> 00:56:42,917
people can turn on a dime.

1114
00:56:44,083 --> 00:56:47,208
They were very,
very angry at me,

1115
00:56:47,291 --> 00:56:50,541
but they found another
psychiatrist who was willing

1116
00:56:50,625 --> 00:56:54,625
to write a note,
and he was discharged.

1117
00:56:56,708 --> 00:57:00,083
I think Max never
really forgave me.

1118
00:57:00,166 --> 00:57:02,166
(cars honking)

1119
00:57:02,249 --> 00:57:05,333
♪ ♪

1120
00:57:16,667 --> 00:57:19,792
(snow falling)

1121
00:57:22,333 --> 00:57:24,416
Where is Dad? Where is he?

1122
00:57:24,500 --> 00:57:26,500
-Gillian Lewis: Oh, there he is.
-Eric: Here's Dad.

1123
00:57:26,583 --> 00:57:29,124
-Dorothy: Is this Dad? Yay.
-Eric: Yeah.

1124
00:57:32,208 --> 00:57:34,750
Dorothy:
I like that Royal Army
Medical Corps, huh?

1125
00:57:34,833 --> 00:57:36,875
-Eric: It looks great.
-Yes.

1126
00:57:36,958 --> 00:57:38,583
-Gillian: Design is so nice.
-Beautifully done.

1127
00:57:38,667 --> 00:57:41,375
-Yeah.
-Eric: It says, "scholar,
editor, teacher."

1128
00:57:41,458 --> 00:57:44,750
-I forgot that we put that.
-Gillian: You left out,
you know,

1129
00:57:44,833 --> 00:57:47,124
-husband, father.
-Dorothy: Husband, father.

1130
00:57:47,208 --> 00:57:48,792
-Gillian: Cool dude.
-Eric: Funny guy.

1131
00:57:48,875 --> 00:57:51,166
Dorothy:
I bought four places.

1132
00:57:51,249 --> 00:57:53,999
So which-- now which one
of you wants to be where?

1133
00:57:54,083 --> 00:57:56,500
I wanna be there.
I think we have that.

1134
00:57:56,583 --> 00:57:57,999
Eric:
Yeah, you have to
be next to dad.

1135
00:57:58,083 --> 00:57:59,458
And then the one back there,
one back there.

1136
00:57:59,541 --> 00:58:02,124
-Eric: That works.
-Dorothy: Yeah. Okay.

1137
00:58:02,208 --> 00:58:04,750
-Gillian: This is
the weirdest conversation.
-(laughs)

1138
00:58:04,833 --> 00:58:07,917
♪ ♪

1139
00:58:09,041 --> 00:58:11,333
(projector clicking)

1140
00:58:11,416 --> 00:58:15,208
Dorothy:
I first met Mel in
medical school at Yale.

1141
00:58:16,625 --> 00:58:18,458
I was a student,
and he was

1142
00:58:18,541 --> 00:58:21,500
an assistant professor
in psychiatry.

1143
00:58:21,583 --> 00:58:25,792
I bumped into him in
the medical school library.

1144
00:58:25,875 --> 00:58:28,583
That night, I got a call.

1145
00:58:28,667 --> 00:58:30,541
He asked me out.

1146
00:58:30,625 --> 00:58:32,875
And I remember
sitting in my chair,

1147
00:58:32,958 --> 00:58:35,999
and it spun, and just
spinning around in it,

1148
00:58:36,083 --> 00:58:38,458
going, "Whee!"

1149
00:58:38,541 --> 00:58:43,083
I knew in a week I really,
really liked this person,

1150
00:58:43,166 --> 00:58:45,208
and I didn't forgive Mel

1151
00:58:45,291 --> 00:58:48,625
because it took him
two weeks to ask me
to marry him.

1152
00:58:53,583 --> 00:58:54,541
(baby crying)

1153
00:58:54,625 --> 00:58:57,416
You know,
he was a lot older than I.

1154
00:58:57,500 --> 00:59:00,500
And so, I spent
a fair amount of time

1155
00:59:00,583 --> 00:59:03,458
when he was going
off to meetings
and things like that,

1156
00:59:03,541 --> 00:59:05,750
I was back here.

1157
00:59:07,124 --> 00:59:09,625
Gillian:
When we were little,
Mom brought us

1158
00:59:09,708 --> 00:59:13,041
to our music lessons,

1159
00:59:13,124 --> 00:59:16,416
and we'd do art
projects with her.

1160
00:59:16,500 --> 00:59:19,541
Whereas my father,
I remember

1161
00:59:19,625 --> 00:59:21,208
climbing over him
and wrestling

1162
00:59:21,291 --> 00:59:23,958
in the living room,
or stuff like that.

1163
00:59:24,041 --> 00:59:27,541
They were two very
complementary forms

1164
00:59:27,625 --> 00:59:30,208
of bringing up a kid.

1165
00:59:30,291 --> 00:59:32,958
My father was
the very playful one...

1166
00:59:34,249 --> 00:59:38,416
and my mom was kinda
the inspirational one.

1167
00:59:38,500 --> 00:59:42,041
My career took off in a way
I hadn't planned it.

1168
00:59:42,124 --> 00:59:44,625
♪ ♪

1169
00:59:44,708 --> 00:59:48,166
My work on juveniles
condemned to death was cited

1170
00:59:48,249 --> 00:59:51,291
in several
Supreme Court decisions,

1171
00:59:51,375 --> 00:59:55,500
but success did
affect my family.

1172
00:59:55,583 --> 00:59:59,999
I made some teaching tapes
of Arthur Shawcross.

1173
01:00:00,083 --> 01:00:03,500
And some of the things
that he went through...

1174
01:00:03,583 --> 01:00:06,458
(childish):
She squeezed my thingy.

1175
01:00:06,541 --> 01:00:10,917
...were terribly
unsettling to my kids.

1176
01:00:10,999 --> 01:00:13,583
Now, they're kind
of interested in it.

1177
01:00:13,667 --> 01:00:15,500
(typing)

1178
01:00:17,792 --> 01:00:20,375
My mom does her writing by hand,

1179
01:00:20,458 --> 01:00:23,500
and then I type up
what she's given me.

1180
01:00:23,583 --> 01:00:27,249
I'm like a fast hunt-
and-peck-type typist,

1181
01:00:27,333 --> 01:00:29,249
so it could be worse.

1182
01:00:30,833 --> 01:00:33,041
(printing)

1183
01:00:33,124 --> 01:00:35,333
-(footsteps)
-Dorothy: Hey, Eric?

1184
01:00:35,416 --> 01:00:37,249
-Eric: Hey, Mom!
-Dorothy: Yeah?

1185
01:00:37,333 --> 01:00:40,166
-Eric: I'm done.
-That's beautiful.

1186
01:00:40,249 --> 01:00:41,625
Thanks, Mom,
but read it over

1187
01:00:41,708 --> 01:00:43,708
because I probably
made a few mistakes.

1188
01:00:43,792 --> 01:00:45,333
-Dorothy: Okay.
-I love you.

1189
01:00:45,416 --> 01:00:46,625
I love you.

1190
01:00:46,708 --> 01:00:48,375
Oh, thank you so much.

1191
01:00:48,458 --> 01:00:51,875
-You're so welcome.
I'll be back soon.
-Yeah, okay.

1192
01:00:56,583 --> 01:00:59,333
-Alright, I love you, Ma.
-I love you.

1193
01:00:59,416 --> 01:01:01,249
-Uber carefully!
-I will.

1194
01:01:01,333 --> 01:01:03,249
(door shuts)

1195
01:01:03,333 --> 01:01:04,958
Woman 1: I will never
forget that moment,

1196
01:01:05,041 --> 01:01:07,166
-or never forget that day.
-(glass breaking)

1197
01:01:07,249 --> 01:01:09,333
Woman 2:
The loss, the tragedy.

1198
01:01:09,416 --> 01:01:12,583
♪ ♪

1199
01:01:14,958 --> 01:01:18,083
Woman 3:

1200
01:01:19,500 --> 01:01:21,792
Woman 4:
The guy oughta
just be killed.

1201
01:01:26,416 --> 01:01:29,416
Dorothy:
Johnny Frank Garrett
had climbed into

1202
01:01:29,500 --> 01:01:31,333
the window of a convent,

1203
01:01:31,416 --> 01:01:34,917
and he had gotten into
the room of a nun.

1204
01:01:34,999 --> 01:01:36,833
He left all the
fingerprints,

1205
01:01:36,917 --> 01:01:38,416
he left the knives.

1206
01:01:38,500 --> 01:01:41,124
This was not a genius
we were dealing with.

1207
01:01:41,208 --> 01:01:45,500
(laughs) And an arch-criminal?
Uh-uh.

1208
01:01:45,583 --> 01:01:48,249
Narrator:
It was not always easy to
understand Johnny Garrett.

1209
01:01:48,333 --> 01:01:50,333
He was forever changing.

1210
01:01:50,416 --> 01:01:52,291
Shortly after confessing,

1211
01:01:52,375 --> 01:01:55,249
he insisted that
he had nothing to do
with the murder.

1212
01:01:55,333 --> 01:01:58,041
Hence, he refused to
sign the confession

1213
01:01:58,124 --> 01:02:00,041
he had just provided.

1214
01:02:00,124 --> 01:02:03,750
To the trial court, he was
a liar, pure and simple.

1215
01:02:05,166 --> 01:02:06,875
Johnny Frank Garrett,

1216
01:02:06,958 --> 01:02:09,249
thief, rapist,
murderer, liar,

1217
01:02:09,333 --> 01:02:12,583
was not crazy.
He was bad.

1218
01:02:12,667 --> 01:02:14,917
Johnny was dispatched to
death row in Huntsville

1219
01:02:14,999 --> 01:02:16,541
to await execution.

1220
01:02:16,625 --> 01:02:18,999
♪ ♪

1221
01:02:19,083 --> 01:02:21,041
We were doing a study

1222
01:02:21,124 --> 01:02:25,375
of 14 juveniles
under the age of 18

1223
01:02:25,458 --> 01:02:27,124
who were sentenced to death.

1224
01:02:28,291 --> 01:02:31,041
Johnny related in
a bizarre fashion,

1225
01:02:31,124 --> 01:02:33,541
and he talked to voices.

1226
01:02:33,625 --> 01:02:36,333
He clearly was
hallucinating.

1227
01:02:38,208 --> 01:02:40,708
We wrote reports
on everybody we saw

1228
01:02:40,792 --> 01:02:41,875
and sent them to lawyers,

1229
01:02:41,958 --> 01:02:44,708
but this one,
I was more detailed about

1230
01:02:44,792 --> 01:02:47,500
because at that point,
he was the sickest

1231
01:02:47,583 --> 01:02:50,458
of the death row people
I had ever seen.

1232
01:02:50,541 --> 01:02:54,208
I'd never seen somebody
so flamboyantly psychotic.

1233
01:02:55,667 --> 01:02:59,333
I diagnosed schizophrenia
with brain damage

1234
01:02:59,416 --> 01:03:02,124
and a history of seizures.

1235
01:03:03,333 --> 01:03:06,249
But then, I saw a video.

1236
01:03:06,333 --> 01:03:08,416
"48 Hours" interviewed him.

1237
01:03:08,500 --> 01:03:10,124
You're saying you didn't
commit the murder?

1238
01:03:10,208 --> 01:03:12,583
No, I didn't. I didn't
commit neither one of 'em,

1239
01:03:12,667 --> 01:03:14,416
rape or murder.

1240
01:03:14,500 --> 01:03:17,333
The hell would I go and do
somethin' like that for?

1241
01:03:17,416 --> 01:03:19,166
Reporter:
Johnny Garrett
claims he talks

1242
01:03:19,249 --> 01:03:20,375
to his dead
Aunt Barbara...

1243
01:03:20,458 --> 01:03:23,083
Sometimes she'll answer,
sometimes she won't.

1244
01:03:23,166 --> 01:03:25,958
Reporter:
...who he says often appears
in his death row cell.

1245
01:03:26,041 --> 01:03:28,833
-What does she tell you?
-That they're not gonna kill me.

1246
01:03:28,917 --> 01:03:31,166
That they can't kill me.

1247
01:03:31,249 --> 01:03:34,291
Dorothy:
Immediately, I realized
he's a multiple.

1248
01:03:34,375 --> 01:03:37,083
That's all she'll say
is they cannot kill me.

1249
01:03:37,166 --> 01:03:40,625
Dorothy:
Years later,
I was reading the "Times."

1250
01:03:40,708 --> 01:03:42,958
"Pope asks for clemency

1251
01:03:43,041 --> 01:03:46,166
for death row inmate
Johnny Frank Garrett."

1252
01:03:46,249 --> 01:03:48,249
And I couldn't believe it.

1253
01:03:48,333 --> 01:03:50,124
(church bell ringing)

1254
01:03:50,208 --> 01:03:52,416
Narrator:
Ann Richards,
the governor of Texas,

1255
01:03:52,500 --> 01:03:54,249
found herself in a quandary.

1256
01:03:54,333 --> 01:03:56,708
According to the material
she had read,

1257
01:03:56,792 --> 01:03:59,958
the condemned was
obviously demented.

1258
01:04:00,041 --> 01:04:02,500
Texas was about to
execute a crazy man

1259
01:04:02,583 --> 01:04:05,249
for an act committed
as a crazy boy.

1260
01:04:05,333 --> 01:04:08,041
If there was ever a case
deserving of clemency,

1261
01:04:08,124 --> 01:04:09,875
this was it.

1262
01:04:09,958 --> 01:04:13,208
On the other hand, Texas was
still the no-nonsense state.

1263
01:04:13,291 --> 01:04:14,500
♪ ♪

1264
01:04:14,583 --> 01:04:17,166
In fact, Texas was running
neck-and-neck with Florida

1265
01:04:17,249 --> 01:04:18,917
for the distinction
of executing

1266
01:04:18,999 --> 01:04:20,625
the greatest
number of criminals

1267
01:04:20,708 --> 01:04:23,541
since the death penalty
was re-instituted

1268
01:04:23,625 --> 01:04:25,750
in 1976.

1269
01:04:26,750 --> 01:04:28,166
No governor of Texas

1270
01:04:28,249 --> 01:04:29,583
who granted clemency
outright

1271
01:04:29,667 --> 01:04:31,041
could rely on reelection.

1272
01:04:33,750 --> 01:04:37,500
The Texas governor would
convene a clemency board.

1273
01:04:37,583 --> 01:04:39,792
It would act as
another jury.

1274
01:04:39,875 --> 01:04:41,625
If, after pondering
all the evidence,

1275
01:04:41,708 --> 01:04:44,208
it voted to spare
the prisoner,

1276
01:04:44,291 --> 01:04:45,875
so be it.

1277
01:04:45,958 --> 01:04:47,124
Nobody could then accuse

1278
01:04:47,208 --> 01:04:50,875
this governor of
being soft on crime.

1279
01:04:50,958 --> 01:04:54,958
Who was the political pawn
whose life hung
in the balance?

1280
01:04:55,041 --> 01:04:57,249
Johnny Frank Garrett.

1281
01:04:58,625 --> 01:05:01,208
He was coming up for
a clemency trial.

1282
01:05:01,291 --> 01:05:03,208
Dorothy:
See, you can see
a light in here,

1283
01:05:03,291 --> 01:05:05,541
and you can see if it's playing.

1284
01:05:05,625 --> 01:05:08,041
So I found out
who his lawyer was,

1285
01:05:08,124 --> 01:05:10,875
and called her, and I said,

1286
01:05:10,958 --> 01:05:13,333
"I goofed. I made a mistake.

1287
01:05:13,416 --> 01:05:16,041
"I will come down to Texas,

1288
01:05:16,124 --> 01:05:17,833
no fee, no charge, nothing."

1289
01:05:17,917 --> 01:05:22,041
It's pretty clear
that he dissociates.

1290
01:05:22,124 --> 01:05:25,500
He had a persona,
a violent one,
Aaron Shockman.

1291
01:05:25,583 --> 01:05:28,124
Dorothy:

1292
01:05:29,333 --> 01:05:30,999
(low whistle)

1293
01:05:33,208 --> 01:05:35,208
On about--
I guess I had to be

1294
01:05:35,291 --> 01:05:37,166
in fifth grade
'cause I met him--

1295
01:05:37,249 --> 01:05:39,917
Well, didn't meet him. I...

1296
01:05:39,999 --> 01:05:42,583
-Dorothy: How did you
meet him first?
-I got beat up.

1297
01:05:42,667 --> 01:05:44,833
And what happened
when you got beat up?

1298
01:05:44,917 --> 01:05:48,166
-I became Aaron Shockman.
-At that time?

1299
01:05:48,917 --> 01:05:51,083
And what did you do?

1300
01:05:51,166 --> 01:05:53,083
-Well, he beat them up.
-Really?

1301
01:05:53,166 --> 01:05:55,667
He's older than me...

1302
01:05:55,750 --> 01:05:57,625
-mentally.
-He's older than you?

1303
01:05:57,708 --> 01:06:00,875
-Intellectually.
-Mm-hmm.

1304
01:06:00,958 --> 01:06:04,124
-He's smarter than I am.
-Mm-hmm.

1305
01:06:04,208 --> 01:06:07,375
Dorothy:
He would pause between
what he was telling me,

1306
01:06:07,458 --> 01:06:09,833
and his eyes would
kind of go up,

1307
01:06:09,917 --> 01:06:11,875
and you see that often

1308
01:06:11,958 --> 01:06:14,625
with people who are
talking to someone

1309
01:06:14,708 --> 01:06:15,875
in their head.

1310
01:06:15,958 --> 01:06:17,375
Dorothy:

1311
01:06:23,416 --> 01:06:24,583
Dorothy: That's right.

1312
01:06:28,541 --> 01:06:29,958
Dorothy: Yeah.

1313
01:06:30,041 --> 01:06:31,500
Johnny:

1314
01:06:31,583 --> 01:06:33,041
♪ ♪

1315
01:06:35,166 --> 01:06:36,708
Dorothy:
He needed someone to take pain.

1316
01:06:42,541 --> 01:06:43,875
Dorothy:

1317
01:06:47,458 --> 01:06:48,416
Dorothy:

1318
01:06:49,500 --> 01:06:50,958
Dorothy:

1319
01:06:52,583 --> 01:06:53,583
Dorothy: Yes?

1320
01:06:55,333 --> 01:06:57,208
Dorothy: Yes? Yes?

1321
01:06:58,833 --> 01:07:01,416
Dorothy:

1322
01:07:05,875 --> 01:07:06,958
(indistinct)

1323
01:07:11,750 --> 01:07:14,625
Narrator:
I'd once heard a lecture
by an FBI agent.

1324
01:07:14,708 --> 01:07:17,833
He talked about how
children used in pornography

1325
01:07:17,917 --> 01:07:20,541
feared for the rest of their
lives that their identities

1326
01:07:20,625 --> 01:07:23,166
and the perverted acts they
were once forced to perform

1327
01:07:23,249 --> 01:07:25,708
will someday come to light.

1328
01:07:25,792 --> 01:07:28,708
Johnny was more terrified
of being recognized

1329
01:07:28,792 --> 01:07:31,625
in the pornographic films
he had made as a child

1330
01:07:31,708 --> 01:07:34,333
than he was of his
impending execution.

1331
01:07:36,625 --> 01:07:38,291
Dorothy: Mm-hmm.

1332
01:07:41,999 --> 01:07:43,875
Aaron was talking with me.

1333
01:07:43,958 --> 01:07:46,291
Again, Johnny's eyes

1334
01:07:46,375 --> 01:07:47,708
kinda looked up,

1335
01:07:47,792 --> 01:07:50,416
and I said,
"What's happening?"

1336
01:07:50,500 --> 01:07:52,249
Dorothy:
Is someone talking to you now?

1337
01:07:52,333 --> 01:07:54,291
Who's talking to you, Aaron?

1338
01:07:54,375 --> 01:07:56,750
-What's go--
What's happening?
-That bitch.

1339
01:07:56,833 --> 01:07:58,708
Dorothy:
Aaron said,
"That bitch Barbara,

1340
01:07:58,792 --> 01:08:00,291
she wants to get rid of me."

1341
01:08:00,375 --> 01:08:03,875
-Gibney: Aunt Barbara?
-Yeah. There was Aunt Barbara.

1342
01:08:03,958 --> 01:08:06,333
She was another
alter of Johnny's,

1343
01:08:06,416 --> 01:08:08,166
and she was near-sighted.

1344
01:08:08,249 --> 01:08:10,583
-I can't see you.
-Dorothy: What?

1345
01:08:10,667 --> 01:08:12,333
I can't see you.

1346
01:08:12,416 --> 01:08:15,249
-Dorothy: What do you mean,
you can't see me?
-You're blurred.

1347
01:08:15,333 --> 01:08:19,625
-Dorothy: And what's your name?
-Barbara.

1348
01:08:19,708 --> 01:08:21,750
Narrator:
A condemned person
must understand

1349
01:08:21,833 --> 01:08:25,249
the nature of the crime for
which he is being executed.

1350
01:08:25,333 --> 01:08:27,249
He must also
understand the fact

1351
01:08:27,333 --> 01:08:29,458
that he is about
to die for it.

1352
01:08:29,541 --> 01:08:33,375
In Johnny's case,
Aunt Barbara
had promised repeatedly

1353
01:08:33,458 --> 01:08:35,416
that Johnny would not die.

1354
01:08:35,500 --> 01:08:38,875
I'm not gonna let
that happen to him.

1355
01:08:38,958 --> 01:08:41,124
-Dorothy: What do you mean?
-I'm gonna stop it.

1356
01:08:41,208 --> 01:08:43,375
Dorothy:
How could you do that?

1357
01:08:43,458 --> 01:08:45,667
They will kill me, not him.

1358
01:08:46,750 --> 01:08:49,625
Dorothy:
Really? They would kill you,

1359
01:08:49,708 --> 01:08:51,667
and then what would
happen with him?

1360
01:08:51,750 --> 01:08:53,917
He would still be alive.

1361
01:08:56,291 --> 01:08:59,375
♪ ♪

1362
01:09:00,541 --> 01:09:03,333
Dorothy:
I testified the
following day.

1363
01:09:03,416 --> 01:09:05,041
We had reams of data

1364
01:09:05,124 --> 01:09:08,458
about his intelligence,
his mental condition.

1365
01:09:08,541 --> 01:09:12,291
This is how you create
a psychotic individual.

1366
01:09:12,375 --> 01:09:14,416
And we had clips

1367
01:09:14,500 --> 01:09:16,667
of him in some of
these states.

1368
01:09:16,750 --> 01:09:19,208
When he doesn't
want to remember...

1369
01:09:20,208 --> 01:09:21,958
he gives me the memories.

1370
01:09:22,041 --> 01:09:26,041
Dorothy:
But the clemency board
didn't give a damn.

1371
01:09:26,124 --> 01:09:28,750
Reporter:
Board members came
out to vote 17-to-1

1372
01:09:28,833 --> 01:09:30,708
to carry out the execution.

1373
01:09:30,792 --> 01:09:32,208
Garrett's only real hope now

1374
01:09:32,291 --> 01:09:34,333
is a personal pardon
from the governor.

1375
01:09:34,416 --> 01:09:37,792
That's unlikely,
and he faces death
by lethal injection...

1376
01:09:39,249 --> 01:09:40,792
Dorothy: Yeah.

1377
01:09:46,083 --> 01:09:47,583
Dorothy: Yeah.

1378
01:09:50,583 --> 01:09:51,458
(door slams)

1379
01:09:51,541 --> 01:09:53,375
Narrator:
To no one's surprise,

1380
01:09:53,458 --> 01:09:55,750
Aunt Barbara's plan
did not come off,

1381
01:09:55,833 --> 01:09:58,917
and the poison flowed
into Johnny's veins.

1382
01:09:58,999 --> 01:10:01,999
Witness accounts of the
execution lead me to believe

1383
01:10:02,083 --> 01:10:04,166
that before the poison
was injected,

1384
01:10:04,249 --> 01:10:07,375
it was Aaron, someone
far tougher than Johnny,

1385
01:10:07,458 --> 01:10:10,958
who came to help him
through his final ordeal.

1386
01:10:11,041 --> 01:10:13,041
Dorothy:
His last words were
something like,

1387
01:10:13,124 --> 01:10:14,958
"I'm sorry to my mother,

1388
01:10:15,041 --> 01:10:17,958
"sorry to the family
of the nun,

1389
01:10:18,041 --> 01:10:20,999
and the rest of you can
go fuck yourselves."

1390
01:10:21,083 --> 01:10:22,625
And I said, "Way to go."

1391
01:10:22,708 --> 01:10:24,541
Crowd (singing):
♪ Na-na, na, na! ♪

1392
01:10:24,625 --> 01:10:26,625
♪ Hey, hey, hey ♪

1393
01:10:26,708 --> 01:10:28,166
♪ Goodbye ♪

1394
01:10:28,249 --> 01:10:30,208
Reporter:
To this group of mostly
college students,

1395
01:10:30,291 --> 01:10:31,792
Johnny Frank Garrett
represented

1396
01:10:31,875 --> 01:10:33,792
all that's wrong
with our legal system.

1397
01:10:33,875 --> 01:10:35,166
With chants and candles,

1398
01:10:35,249 --> 01:10:37,833
they applauded Garrett's
death by lethal injection,

1399
01:10:37,917 --> 01:10:39,999
saying the punishment
must fit the crime.

1400
01:10:40,083 --> 01:10:41,917
Crowd (chanting):
Texas, you know!

1401
01:10:41,999 --> 01:10:43,541
Death row has got to go!

1402
01:10:43,625 --> 01:10:45,166
Reporter:
On the same side
of the street,

1403
01:10:45,249 --> 01:10:46,375
but with an opposite view,

1404
01:10:46,458 --> 01:10:48,375
were members of
Amnesty International.

1405
01:10:48,458 --> 01:10:49,958
The human rights group argue

1406
01:10:50,041 --> 01:10:52,750
that by executing
a mentally unstable convict,

1407
01:10:52,833 --> 01:10:55,124
a greater crime
was committed.

1408
01:10:55,208 --> 01:10:56,583
These hardened criminals

1409
01:10:56,667 --> 01:11:00,124
will never again murder,
rape, or deal drugs.

1410
01:11:00,208 --> 01:11:02,166
As governor,
I made sure they received

1411
01:11:02,249 --> 01:11:04,375
the ultimate punishment, death.

1412
01:11:04,458 --> 01:11:06,375
And Texas is a safer
place for it.

1413
01:11:06,458 --> 01:11:08,583
Yeager:
Back when we were doing
a lot of this work,

1414
01:11:08,667 --> 01:11:12,249
the tenor of our culture
at that time was really

1415
01:11:12,333 --> 01:11:14,750
crime and punishment,
and not rehabilitation.

1416
01:11:14,833 --> 01:11:17,249
They are not just
gangs of kids anymore.

1417
01:11:17,333 --> 01:11:21,124
They are often the kinds of kids
that are called super predators.

1418
01:11:21,208 --> 01:11:23,166
No conscience, no empathy.

1419
01:11:23,249 --> 01:11:25,083
So I don't wanna ask

1420
01:11:25,166 --> 01:11:27,124
what made them do this.

1421
01:11:27,208 --> 01:11:29,999
They must be taken
off the street.

1422
01:11:30,083 --> 01:11:31,958
Commercial:
She's the only Democrat
for governor

1423
01:11:32,041 --> 01:11:33,583
for the death penalty.

1424
01:11:33,667 --> 01:11:35,458
She's Dianne Feinstein.

1425
01:11:35,541 --> 01:11:37,667
When Dorothy and I first
started working together,

1426
01:11:37,750 --> 01:11:40,375
and we were seeing our
juveniles that were growing up,

1427
01:11:40,458 --> 01:11:42,083
so these were kids that
she had seen at 14.

1428
01:11:42,166 --> 01:11:44,041
I saw them when they
were in their 20s.

1429
01:11:44,124 --> 01:11:45,875
Man:
Picture of a bird with a long...

1430
01:11:45,958 --> 01:11:47,708
Yeager:
And, initially,

1431
01:11:47,792 --> 01:11:50,875
the state prisons had
a rehabilitative model.

1432
01:11:50,958 --> 01:11:54,375
So they were teaching
people how to read, write,

1433
01:11:54,458 --> 01:11:57,541
balance a checkbook,
get a job, write a resume.

1434
01:11:57,625 --> 01:11:59,625
And then as we were
getting more and more

1435
01:11:59,708 --> 01:12:02,917
into the work we were doing,
the culture was changing

1436
01:12:02,999 --> 01:12:05,458
and the politicians
were getting the message

1437
01:12:05,541 --> 01:12:08,708
that crime and punishment
is what's important.

1438
01:12:08,792 --> 01:12:10,416
We don't want to rehabilitate.

1439
01:12:10,500 --> 01:12:12,500
It's too expensive,
and who cares anyway?

1440
01:12:12,583 --> 01:12:14,875
If you come into our state

1441
01:12:14,958 --> 01:12:16,833
and you kill
one of our children,

1442
01:12:16,917 --> 01:12:18,750
you kill a police officer,

1443
01:12:18,833 --> 01:12:20,500
you're involved
with another crime

1444
01:12:20,583 --> 01:12:22,833
and you kill
one of our citizens,

1445
01:12:22,917 --> 01:12:25,833
you will face
the ultimate justice

1446
01:12:25,917 --> 01:12:29,416
in the state of Texas, and that
is you will be executed.

1447
01:12:29,500 --> 01:12:31,583
-Moderator:
What do you make of--
-(applause)

1448
01:12:31,667 --> 01:12:34,500
Burr:
The rationales for
the death penalty

1449
01:12:34,583 --> 01:12:37,999
have always been
retribution and deterrence.

1450
01:12:38,083 --> 01:12:41,833
Keeping other people from
engaging in the same behavior.

1451
01:12:41,917 --> 01:12:44,999
And all the studies,
social science studies,
have shown that

1452
01:12:45,083 --> 01:12:47,708
there's no deterrent effect
from executions.

1453
01:12:47,792 --> 01:12:52,333
In fact,
executions sort of bring

1454
01:12:52,416 --> 01:12:55,500
the act of killing into, uh,

1455
01:12:55,583 --> 01:12:58,458
the mainstream
as acceptable.

1456
01:12:58,541 --> 01:13:00,500
In states where
executions have gone up,

1457
01:13:00,583 --> 01:13:03,708
homicide rates
have often gone up.

1458
01:13:03,792 --> 01:13:05,625
Dorothy:
The legal system
at this point

1459
01:13:05,708 --> 01:13:10,208
is most interested in
incapacitating these people,

1460
01:13:10,291 --> 01:13:13,249
and you can't really
blame them for that.

1461
01:13:13,333 --> 01:13:16,083
Their interest is in
the public safety.

1462
01:13:16,166 --> 01:13:18,500
But, if you have
that and only that,

1463
01:13:18,583 --> 01:13:22,083
and you don't try to figure
out what it is that creates

1464
01:13:22,166 --> 01:13:23,541
these very dangerous people,

1465
01:13:23,625 --> 01:13:26,458
then you just run
the risk of making

1466
01:13:26,541 --> 01:13:29,833
more and more
and more prisons,
and never preventing.

1467
01:13:29,917 --> 01:13:32,541
♪ ♪

1468
01:13:32,625 --> 01:13:34,416
Narrator:
Ever since 1976,

1469
01:13:34,500 --> 01:13:37,291
juries have been obliged
to consider the mitigating

1470
01:13:37,375 --> 01:13:40,625
as well as the aggravating
circumstances of a murder.

1471
01:13:40,708 --> 01:13:42,875
Aggravating
circumstances focus,

1472
01:13:42,958 --> 01:13:46,416
for the most part,
on the grotesqueness
of the crimes.

1473
01:13:46,500 --> 01:13:50,083
Was the victim tortured
or raped or mutilated?

1474
01:13:50,166 --> 01:13:53,124
Was there more
than one victim?

1475
01:13:53,208 --> 01:13:55,291
Then there are
the mitigating
circumstances.

1476
01:13:55,375 --> 01:13:58,500
These often focus
on the defendant's
abusive childhood

1477
01:13:58,583 --> 01:14:01,375
and on the issues
of mental health.

1478
01:14:01,458 --> 01:14:03,999
Herein lies
the contradiction.

1479
01:14:04,083 --> 01:14:05,750
The gruesomeness
of the murder

1480
01:14:05,833 --> 01:14:07,958
is directly proportional

1481
01:14:08,041 --> 01:14:09,541
to the craziness
of the murderer.

1482
01:14:11,500 --> 01:14:14,291
Now, ask a jury to wrestle
with that equation

1483
01:14:14,375 --> 01:14:19,083
and come up with an answer.
It can't be done.

1484
01:14:19,166 --> 01:14:23,416
Burr:
The Supreme Court has always
used that word "compassion"

1485
01:14:23,500 --> 01:14:27,625
in describing what's
important about mitigation.

1486
01:14:27,708 --> 01:14:29,833
That it's something that allows

1487
01:14:29,917 --> 01:14:33,375
a compassionate impulse
to work in jurors.

1488
01:14:33,458 --> 01:14:35,833
My hope, and others' hope,

1489
01:14:35,917 --> 01:14:37,792
in our community
was that it would

1490
01:14:37,875 --> 01:14:39,458
expand to...

1491
01:14:39,541 --> 01:14:41,792
a view that serious
mental illness

1492
01:14:41,875 --> 01:14:43,708
would exempt people from

1493
01:14:43,792 --> 01:14:45,999
even being sentenced
to death to start with.

1494
01:14:46,083 --> 01:14:48,124
It hasn't,
hasn't moved that direction.

1495
01:14:48,208 --> 01:14:50,208
Are the courts becoming
more receptive?

1496
01:14:50,291 --> 01:14:52,917
Are juries becoming
more receptive to this?

1497
01:14:52,999 --> 01:14:54,416
-Dorothy: No.
-No.

1498
01:14:54,500 --> 01:14:56,375
Sawyer:
This is Yale psychiatrist
Dorothy Lewis

1499
01:14:56,458 --> 01:15:00,625
and her partner,
neurologist Jonathan Pincus
of Georgetown University.

1500
01:15:00,708 --> 01:15:03,917
They're trying to get courts
to give Multiple Personality

1501
01:15:03,999 --> 01:15:05,999
different treatment
under the law.

1502
01:15:06,083 --> 01:15:08,667
Which brings us
to David Wilson,

1503
01:15:08,750 --> 01:15:10,750
convicted of
murdering a stranger

1504
01:15:10,833 --> 01:15:12,458
who stopped to help
when he thought

1505
01:15:12,541 --> 01:15:14,667
Wilson's car was broken
down on the highway...

1506
01:15:14,750 --> 01:15:16,958
Man 1:
Was shot point-blank with
a 12-gauge shotgun...

1507
01:15:17,041 --> 01:15:18,583
Man 2:
...wallet still
in the glove box.

1508
01:15:18,667 --> 01:15:20,958
-A savage act...
-Man 3: What can you
say after something

1509
01:15:21,041 --> 01:15:22,416
so shocking happens?

1510
01:15:22,500 --> 01:15:23,958
♪ ♪

1511
01:15:24,041 --> 01:15:25,708
Dorothy:
David went into

1512
01:15:25,792 --> 01:15:27,917
some kind of state,

1513
01:15:27,999 --> 01:15:29,833
and he mistook

1514
01:15:29,917 --> 01:15:31,999
the guy who'd
stopped to help him

1515
01:15:32,083 --> 01:15:35,500
for somebody dangerous,
somebody in his life,

1516
01:15:35,583 --> 01:15:38,625
-and shot him
and killed him.
-(gunshot)

1517
01:15:38,708 --> 01:15:42,083
David: Wilson:
Personally, I remember
being in, in the car,

1518
01:15:42,166 --> 01:15:45,166
-but in the backseat
sleeping.
-Dorothy: Okay.

1519
01:15:45,249 --> 01:15:47,375
Wilson:
I didn't know
anybody got killed.

1520
01:15:47,458 --> 01:15:49,583
(video static)

1521
01:15:52,875 --> 01:15:54,541
-Dorothy: Is it working?
-Man: Mm-hmm.

1522
01:15:54,625 --> 01:15:56,541
Dorothy:
I went and examined him

1523
01:15:56,625 --> 01:15:59,625
after he was found guilty
and sentenced to death.

1524
01:16:00,625 --> 01:16:02,541
I was quite startled

1525
01:16:02,625 --> 01:16:05,124
when I saw he had scars

1526
01:16:05,208 --> 01:16:08,792
all over his chest
and all over his back,

1527
01:16:08,875 --> 01:16:11,583
and there was a burn scar.

1528
01:16:12,958 --> 01:16:14,208
Wilson:

1529
01:16:14,291 --> 01:16:15,249
Dorothy:

1530
01:16:17,667 --> 01:16:18,792
Dorothy:

1531
01:16:29,208 --> 01:16:32,166
Dorothy:
He had an alter named Juan.

1532
01:16:32,249 --> 01:16:34,667
Man:

1533
01:16:37,500 --> 01:16:38,667
Man: Juan?

1534
01:16:42,958 --> 01:16:44,917
Man: Lee?

1535
01:16:44,999 --> 01:16:47,249
Dorothy:
And then he had
another alter.

1536
01:16:47,333 --> 01:16:49,625
I think there were
three of them.

1537
01:16:51,583 --> 01:16:52,667
Man:

1538
01:16:59,333 --> 01:17:01,999
-Man:
-Dorothy:

1539
01:17:03,875 --> 01:17:06,541
Dorothy:

1540
01:17:08,750 --> 01:17:10,541
Dorothy:

1541
01:17:12,416 --> 01:17:13,875
Dorothy:

1542
01:17:15,625 --> 01:17:16,583
Dorothy: I do.

1543
01:17:17,166 --> 01:17:18,833
Dorothy:

1544
01:17:28,667 --> 01:17:31,416
Dorothy:
David's father used
to hang David up

1545
01:17:31,500 --> 01:17:35,375
by his stomach,
with his trousers off.

1546
01:17:44,375 --> 01:17:45,541
Dorothy: Yeah?

1547
01:18:06,833 --> 01:18:10,083
-Dorothy: You...
-(heavy breathing)

1548
01:18:23,249 --> 01:18:25,416
(sniffling)

1549
01:18:28,708 --> 01:18:30,291
Dorothy:

1550
01:18:36,083 --> 01:18:37,458
Dorothy:

1551
01:18:39,291 --> 01:18:40,458
(sniffles)

1552
01:18:44,333 --> 01:18:46,333
Dorothy:

1553
01:18:46,416 --> 01:18:48,124
Dorothy: You don't remember...

1554
01:18:49,416 --> 01:18:53,541
What is, to you,
the most telling thing

1555
01:18:53,625 --> 01:18:54,958
that convinces you?

1556
01:18:55,041 --> 01:18:57,291
-It's a constellation
of things--
-And you've documented

1557
01:18:57,375 --> 01:19:00,041
-this independently?
Not just his word?
-Oh, yes.

1558
01:19:00,124 --> 01:19:01,667
No. Absolutely.

1559
01:19:01,750 --> 01:19:03,458
Because again, people
sitting at home would say

1560
01:19:03,541 --> 01:19:05,208
he's got a lot to gain here.

1561
01:19:05,291 --> 01:19:07,917
-Well here, you know...
-What? What does
he have to gain?

1562
01:19:07,999 --> 01:19:11,541
-Getting hospitalized
instead of jailed.
-Dorothy: He doesn't want that.

1563
01:19:11,625 --> 01:19:13,875
I had a different
impression from yours,

1564
01:19:13,958 --> 01:19:16,291
which was that he
really did not want us

1565
01:19:16,375 --> 01:19:17,750
to see these switches.

1566
01:19:17,833 --> 01:19:20,999
And indeed,
he doesn't really
believe that they occur.

1567
01:19:23,958 --> 01:19:25,667
Dorothy:
David touched me.

1568
01:19:25,750 --> 01:19:30,750
There's something about him
that was so vulnerable and, uh,

1569
01:19:30,833 --> 01:19:34,541
and so innocent.
There was a part that was...

1570
01:19:34,625 --> 01:19:37,083
♪ ♪

1571
01:19:37,166 --> 01:19:40,625
I got called to
testify at the appeal.

1572
01:19:41,333 --> 01:19:44,249
And David was there.

1573
01:19:44,333 --> 01:19:48,750
And I was explaining
his dissociative states,

1574
01:19:48,833 --> 01:19:52,917
and I stopped myself,
and I said, "Your Honor,

1575
01:19:52,999 --> 01:19:55,041
"may I interrupt
for a moment?

1576
01:19:55,124 --> 01:19:58,291
"Because David is
not here right now,

1577
01:19:58,375 --> 01:20:01,041
but Juan has come."

1578
01:20:01,875 --> 01:20:04,291
He switched.

1579
01:20:04,375 --> 01:20:07,124
It was after that hearing

1580
01:20:07,208 --> 01:20:10,541
that the judge reduced
the sentence to life.

1581
01:20:14,041 --> 01:20:15,792
-Dorothy: Do you remember me?
-Yes.

1582
01:20:15,875 --> 01:20:18,958
-Yeah? What's my name?
That's right.
-Dorothy.

1583
01:20:19,041 --> 01:20:21,625
Dorothy:
No civilized nation
throughout history

1584
01:20:21,708 --> 01:20:24,041
has executed its insane.

1585
01:20:24,124 --> 01:20:26,583
So from a moral
point of view,

1586
01:20:26,667 --> 01:20:29,124
you don't kill people who,

1587
01:20:29,208 --> 01:20:31,375
because of an illness,

1588
01:20:31,458 --> 01:20:33,999
act in an
uncontrollable way.

1589
01:20:34,083 --> 01:20:37,083
Sawyer:
But does this really mitigate

1590
01:20:37,166 --> 01:20:39,833
the horrible crime he committed?

1591
01:20:39,917 --> 01:20:42,458
He should be punished
and punished severely,

1592
01:20:42,541 --> 01:20:44,750
but should he be put
to death for that

1593
01:20:44,833 --> 01:20:47,166
if the main operative factors

1594
01:20:47,249 --> 01:20:50,833
in producing his violence were
completely out of his control?

1595
01:20:50,917 --> 01:20:53,833
But under the law,
he is still competent enough

1596
01:20:53,917 --> 01:20:55,792
to know right from wrong.

1597
01:20:55,875 --> 01:20:59,999
The issue is really
whether the individual

1598
01:21:00,083 --> 01:21:03,166
has that degree of control

1599
01:21:03,249 --> 01:21:05,750
to conform his behavior

1600
01:21:05,833 --> 01:21:07,291
to the requirements of law.

1601
01:21:07,375 --> 01:21:08,833
♪ ♪

1602
01:21:08,917 --> 01:21:11,041
(banging)

1603
01:21:11,124 --> 01:21:13,833
Narrator:
My daughter believes that
the judge who sentences

1604
01:21:13,917 --> 01:21:16,375
a person to death
should be responsible

1605
01:21:16,458 --> 01:21:18,792
for carrying out
his sentence.

1606
01:21:18,875 --> 01:21:21,500
He should spring
the trapdoor
under the gallows,

1607
01:21:21,583 --> 01:21:23,708
press the button to
deliver the current,

1608
01:21:23,792 --> 01:21:26,041
inject the poison.

1609
01:21:26,124 --> 01:21:29,291
-(church bells ringing)
-She thinks then there
would be fewer executions.

1610
01:21:29,375 --> 01:21:30,667
Most people, she believes,

1611
01:21:30,750 --> 01:21:33,708
would have trouble
doing those things.

1612
01:21:33,792 --> 01:21:35,416
I'm not so sure.

1613
01:21:35,500 --> 01:21:39,750
Game Voice:
Do you wonder what it is like
to witness an electrocution?

1614
01:21:39,833 --> 01:21:42,375
Insert 25 cents,

1615
01:21:42,458 --> 01:21:44,917
then quickly pull
the control handles

1616
01:21:44,999 --> 01:21:46,333
to administer
capital punishment.

1617
01:21:46,416 --> 01:21:48,333
(electricity buzzing)

1618
01:21:48,416 --> 01:21:51,958
(clanking, banging)

1619
01:21:55,458 --> 01:21:58,708
Narrator:
My question is,
within our own society,

1620
01:21:58,792 --> 01:22:00,833
are there individuals
who are able

1621
01:22:00,917 --> 01:22:02,583
to kill repeatedly,

1622
01:22:02,667 --> 01:22:05,958
and whose only
psychopathology,
if you could call it that,

1623
01:22:06,041 --> 01:22:08,833
is a lack of empathy
for other human beings?

1624
01:22:10,041 --> 01:22:12,583
Are there real sociopaths?

1625
01:22:12,667 --> 01:22:14,458
♪ ♪

1626
01:22:14,541 --> 01:22:16,083
Reporter (on TV):
The man on the left
has killed almost

1627
01:22:16,166 --> 01:22:17,333
20 men in Louisiana

1628
01:22:17,416 --> 01:22:19,667
since December 1983.

1629
01:22:19,750 --> 01:22:21,625
He is sought after
by the authorities,

1630
01:22:21,708 --> 01:22:24,999
-but only when it is
time to kill again.
-(chuckles)

1631
01:22:25,083 --> 01:22:28,291
Sam Jones is an executioner.

1632
01:22:28,375 --> 01:22:30,667
How many people do you
think you've executed?

1633
01:22:30,750 --> 01:22:32,792
Sam Jones (on TV):
Uh, I don't know
the exact number.

1634
01:22:32,875 --> 01:22:35,583
Eighteen to 19,
I'm not sure.
I lose track.

1635
01:22:35,667 --> 01:22:37,917
Reporter:
Sam usually works out
of the death house

1636
01:22:37,999 --> 01:22:39,999
at the Angola State
Prison in Louisiana,

1637
01:22:40,083 --> 01:22:43,375
but today, he's some
1,148 miles away,

1638
01:22:43,458 --> 01:22:45,500
up in Harrisburg,
Pennsylvania,
where he's working

1639
01:22:45,583 --> 01:22:48,708
at his other job as
a licensed electrician.

1640
01:22:51,041 --> 01:22:53,583
Yeager:
He was a traveling
executioner.

1641
01:22:53,667 --> 01:22:56,999
So he would go wherever
the execution needed to be.

1642
01:22:57,083 --> 01:22:58,917
"People" magazine
had found this guy,

1643
01:22:58,999 --> 01:23:00,917
and I think he was
probably advertising

1644
01:23:00,999 --> 01:23:03,667
his services pretty widely.

1645
01:23:03,750 --> 01:23:04,708
(laughs)

1646
01:23:04,792 --> 01:23:06,124
Jones (on TV):
Warden, this is Sam Jones.

1647
01:23:06,208 --> 01:23:09,124
I was checking to see if
I had any dates coming up.

1648
01:23:09,208 --> 01:23:11,917
Dorothy:
He executed some
of my clients.

1649
01:23:14,458 --> 01:23:17,958
He lived in a trailer
park in Louisiana.

1650
01:23:18,041 --> 01:23:22,333
Cathy and I go down,
and we meet this guy.

1651
01:23:22,416 --> 01:23:24,375
Yeager:
I think I had said
to you before,

1652
01:23:24,458 --> 01:23:27,750
not too many people
have made me frightened.

1653
01:23:28,708 --> 01:23:29,917
He did.

1654
01:23:29,999 --> 01:23:32,041
Dorothy:
Sam came with,
I think, a six-pack,

1655
01:23:32,124 --> 01:23:34,500
and he opened for me

1656
01:23:34,583 --> 01:23:36,833
and for him,
and we started talking.

1657
01:23:36,917 --> 01:23:38,541
Are you ready?

1658
01:23:38,625 --> 01:23:41,249
Dorothy:

1659
01:23:47,416 --> 01:23:48,416
Dorothy: Yeah.

1660
01:23:57,958 --> 01:23:59,375
Mm-hmm.

1661
01:24:03,833 --> 01:24:05,083
Mm-hmm.

1662
01:24:06,541 --> 01:24:10,375
He had no insight into
what this was doing to him...

1663
01:24:10,458 --> 01:24:11,833
He, uh...

1664
01:24:20,500 --> 01:24:22,500
Narrator:
Now, I had met
someone who told me

1665
01:24:22,583 --> 01:24:25,875
he had no qualms
about killing anyone,

1666
01:24:25,958 --> 01:24:28,083
man, woman, or child.

1667
01:24:33,500 --> 01:24:34,999
Dorothy:

1668
01:24:39,708 --> 01:24:41,625
Narrator:
Was Sam Jones the character

1669
01:24:41,708 --> 01:24:44,166
I'd been seeking for years?

1670
01:24:44,249 --> 01:24:47,333
The cool, premeditated
killer without a trace

1671
01:24:47,416 --> 01:24:49,999
of psychosis
or brain damage?

1672
01:24:50,083 --> 01:24:53,083
♪ ♪

1673
01:24:53,166 --> 01:24:57,249
I did all this stuff that I do
with my murderers.

1674
01:24:57,333 --> 01:24:58,667
Dorothy:

1675
01:25:10,999 --> 01:25:12,708
Dorothy: Yeah. Like what?

1676
01:25:17,583 --> 01:25:19,583
Why? Oh really?

1677
01:25:19,667 --> 01:25:21,792
Dorothy:

1678
01:25:27,708 --> 01:25:29,291
Dorothy:

1679
01:25:37,124 --> 01:25:39,541
Dorothy:

1680
01:25:43,041 --> 01:25:44,249
Dorothy:

1681
01:25:52,917 --> 01:25:53,875
Dorothy:

1682
01:25:58,500 --> 01:26:01,041
Dorothy:
Sam was as confused
and muddle-headed,

1683
01:26:01,124 --> 01:26:03,291
as battered and beaten,
as the violent men

1684
01:26:03,375 --> 01:26:05,375
I had interviewed
on death row.

1685
01:26:05,458 --> 01:26:09,291
And by his own admission,
he had a violent past.

1686
01:26:09,375 --> 01:26:12,500
His serial executions
were but the latest
manifestations

1687
01:26:12,583 --> 01:26:15,208
of his paranoid rage.

1688
01:26:15,291 --> 01:26:18,583
He had served time only
for assault and battery,
not for murder.

1689
01:26:18,667 --> 01:26:20,667
But that seemed more
the luck of the draw

1690
01:26:20,750 --> 01:26:23,541
than a reflection
of mental health.

1691
01:26:23,625 --> 01:26:26,083
By his 19th execution,

1692
01:26:26,166 --> 01:26:28,375
he had a lot
of experience.

1693
01:26:28,458 --> 01:26:31,833
I suspect each
press of the button
further inured him,

1694
01:26:31,917 --> 01:26:35,958
making it easier and easier
over time to do his job.

1695
01:26:37,083 --> 01:26:39,416
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, uh-huh.

1696
01:26:41,917 --> 01:26:44,792
Yeager:
When he was really
talking about himself

1697
01:26:44,875 --> 01:26:47,083
and really getting
into his philosophy

1698
01:26:47,166 --> 01:26:49,875
on executions
and he's just doing a job,

1699
01:26:50,583 --> 01:26:52,083
he told us that...

1700
01:26:54,833 --> 01:26:56,333
Dorothy:

1701
01:26:58,458 --> 01:26:59,792
Dorothy:

1702
01:27:06,541 --> 01:27:09,833
Yeager:
He would blank out, and he
would do a piece of artwork.

1703
01:27:09,917 --> 01:27:11,625
(indistinct chatter)

1704
01:27:11,708 --> 01:27:15,124
Dorothy:
The pictures got more
and more bizarre,

1705
01:27:15,208 --> 01:27:17,249
more and more psychotic,

1706
01:27:17,333 --> 01:27:19,999
and more and more
violent.

1707
01:27:20,083 --> 01:27:21,875
Jones:

1708
01:27:21,958 --> 01:27:25,458
Yeager: There, you saw
the real person who had

1709
01:27:25,541 --> 01:27:29,375
this facade that
he was a cool guy
'cause he was doing this

1710
01:27:29,458 --> 01:27:32,917
terrifying work, which
should upset anybody.

1711
01:27:32,999 --> 01:27:36,917
Although he was very
cool about, you know,
"Oh, no big deal."

1712
01:27:36,999 --> 01:27:40,416
His paintings
showed his humanity.

1713
01:27:40,500 --> 01:27:42,958
You could see the upset.

1714
01:27:49,375 --> 01:27:50,541
Dorothy: Mm-hmm.

1715
01:28:03,583 --> 01:28:05,500
Dorothy:
Yeah.

1716
01:28:15,041 --> 01:28:16,458
Dorothy:

1717
01:28:16,541 --> 01:28:18,750
It's puzzling. It's...

1718
01:28:20,208 --> 01:28:23,875
you know, you,
you certainly wonder was--

1719
01:28:23,958 --> 01:28:27,792
did he dissociate or, uh,

1720
01:28:27,875 --> 01:28:31,833
did he think killing is
different from executing?

1721
01:28:34,958 --> 01:28:37,541
Dorothy: Your grandchild?
How old is your grandchild?

1722
01:28:38,375 --> 01:28:39,333
Dorothy:

1723
01:28:41,208 --> 01:28:43,041
Dorothy:
(laughs) He does?

1724
01:28:43,124 --> 01:28:46,208
♪ ♪

1725
01:28:52,583 --> 01:28:55,708
(birds chirping)

1726
01:29:01,667 --> 01:29:03,083
(grunts)

1727
01:29:05,750 --> 01:29:08,124
(coughing)
There's mold on these things.

1728
01:29:11,917 --> 01:29:14,291
(clacking)

1729
01:29:19,917 --> 01:29:23,249
Oh for... God's sake.

1730
01:29:23,333 --> 01:29:24,541
Hey, Eric?

1731
01:29:24,625 --> 01:29:28,208
-Eric! Eric,
guess what I found?
-Eric: Yeah?

1732
01:29:28,291 --> 01:29:31,500
"1/23/89, tape 2."

1733
01:29:31,583 --> 01:29:32,999
(Eric laughs)

1734
01:29:33,083 --> 01:29:36,208
You know what that is?
I wouldn't even put

1735
01:29:36,291 --> 01:29:38,291
Bundy's name on it
'cause I thought

1736
01:29:38,375 --> 01:29:40,667
in case anyone
got hold of these,

1737
01:29:40,750 --> 01:29:42,625
I didn't want them
to know what it was.

1738
01:29:42,708 --> 01:29:45,708
That's my last
interview with him.

1739
01:29:45,792 --> 01:29:48,041
Take a look.
Don't get DNA on it!

1740
01:29:48,124 --> 01:29:49,541
(laughs)

1741
01:29:49,625 --> 01:29:53,541
♪ ♪

1742
01:29:53,625 --> 01:29:56,458
Narrator:
It is now 30 years
since Theodore Bundy,

1743
01:29:56,541 --> 01:29:58,375
arguably the most notorious

1744
01:29:58,458 --> 01:30:01,124
American serial murderer
of the 20th century,

1745
01:30:01,208 --> 01:30:02,833
was electrocuted.

1746
01:30:02,917 --> 01:30:05,041
Crowd (singing):
♪ Fry, fry! ♪

1747
01:30:05,124 --> 01:30:06,792
♪ Ted Bundy, goodbye ♪

1748
01:30:06,875 --> 01:30:09,083
Narrator:
For readers unfamiliar
with this case,

1749
01:30:09,166 --> 01:30:10,667
Theodore Bundy
was a young male

1750
01:30:10,750 --> 01:30:13,333
sexual predator who
terrorized the United States

1751
01:30:13,416 --> 01:30:17,625
from coast to coast
during the 1970s.

1752
01:30:18,958 --> 01:30:22,833
He committed over
30 homicides of young women,

1753
01:30:22,917 --> 01:30:24,583
decapitating some

1754
01:30:24,667 --> 01:30:27,166
and saving their
skulls as trophies.

1755
01:30:28,833 --> 01:30:31,792
Attractive, articulate,
and charismatic,

1756
01:30:31,875 --> 01:30:33,416
he convinced the court

1757
01:30:33,500 --> 01:30:36,249
to allow him to
represent himself,

1758
01:30:36,333 --> 01:30:39,458
turning his trials more
into performance pieces

1759
01:30:39,541 --> 01:30:42,083
than serious legal
proceedings.

1760
01:30:42,166 --> 01:30:44,124
After numerous
unsuccessful appeals,

1761
01:30:44,208 --> 01:30:47,166
Bundy was executed
in Starke, Florida,

1762
01:30:47,249 --> 01:30:50,375
on January 24th, 1989.

1763
01:30:52,500 --> 01:30:54,083
(typing)

1764
01:30:54,166 --> 01:30:57,917
Why write about Bundy
decades after his death?

1765
01:30:57,999 --> 01:31:00,750
Hasn't everything of
importance already
been said?

1766
01:31:00,833 --> 01:31:02,375
No.

1767
01:31:04,375 --> 01:31:06,583
The authors
resurrect this case

1768
01:31:06,667 --> 01:31:09,291
to call into question
the widely held belief

1769
01:31:09,375 --> 01:31:14,166
that Bundy had
a normal childhood,
and that he simply had

1770
01:31:14,249 --> 01:31:17,458
an innate predisposition
to extreme violence.

1771
01:31:17,541 --> 01:31:20,458
That he was simply
born evil.

1772
01:31:20,541 --> 01:31:23,625
Bundy himself perpetuated
the fantasy

1773
01:31:23,708 --> 01:31:26,541
that he came from this
perfectly normal childhood,

1774
01:31:26,625 --> 01:31:29,124
and so, he must be evil.

1775
01:31:29,208 --> 01:31:32,541
I grew up in a wonderful
home with two...

1776
01:31:32,625 --> 01:31:34,249
dedicated and loving parents,

1777
01:31:34,333 --> 01:31:36,958
one of five brothers
and sisters.

1778
01:31:37,041 --> 01:31:40,500
Yeager:
That's fodder for us to say,
now, wait a minute.

1779
01:31:40,583 --> 01:31:43,708
We know that people
are not born evil.

1780
01:31:43,792 --> 01:31:46,208
That has to develop somehow.

1781
01:31:46,291 --> 01:31:49,166
I hope no one will try
to take the easy way out

1782
01:31:49,249 --> 01:31:52,333
and to try to blame
or otherwise accuse

1783
01:31:52,416 --> 01:31:55,875
my family of contributing
to this because...

1784
01:31:55,958 --> 01:31:59,083
Gibney:
So I'm interested in
particular of why you,

1785
01:31:59,166 --> 01:32:02,208
you're so interested in him,
even today.

1786
01:32:02,291 --> 01:32:04,667
Uh-huh. Well, uh,

1787
01:32:04,750 --> 01:32:07,750
first of all,
'cause I got it wrong.

1788
01:32:07,833 --> 01:32:10,833
♪ ♪

1789
01:32:10,917 --> 01:32:15,750
In '86, Bundy's attorneys
asked, "Would you

1790
01:32:15,833 --> 01:32:19,375
work with the defense team?"
Because they were appealing.

1791
01:32:19,458 --> 01:32:21,583
And I said sure.

1792
01:32:21,667 --> 01:32:24,208
We had our psychologist,

1793
01:32:24,291 --> 01:32:27,333
our neurologist,
our neuropsychologist,

1794
01:32:27,416 --> 01:32:30,667
and did a computerized EEG.

1795
01:32:30,750 --> 01:32:34,708
We did not find any gross
neurological problems,

1796
01:32:34,792 --> 01:32:37,792
but we did find
some abnormalities

1797
01:32:37,875 --> 01:32:41,875
that are often seen
in depressed people.

1798
01:32:41,958 --> 01:32:46,166
Bundy had already
been evaluated by several
other professionals.

1799
01:32:47,458 --> 01:32:49,541
They diagnosed psychopathy.

1800
01:32:49,625 --> 01:32:52,333
They said he was
just a psychopath.

1801
01:32:54,999 --> 01:32:58,124
-Did you ever see
the Dobson tapes?
-Gibney: Yes.

1802
01:32:58,208 --> 01:32:59,333
You know? (laughs)

1803
01:32:59,416 --> 01:33:01,291
James Dobson:
Ted, how did it happen?

1804
01:33:01,375 --> 01:33:04,917
Take me back.
What are the antecedents

1805
01:33:04,999 --> 01:33:06,458
of the behavior?

1806
01:33:06,541 --> 01:33:08,750
The basic...

1807
01:33:08,833 --> 01:33:12,416
humanity and basic spirit
that God gave me was intact,

1808
01:33:12,500 --> 01:33:15,875
but, unfortunately,
it became overwhelmed at times

1809
01:33:15,958 --> 01:33:19,291
through the kind of fantasy
life that was fueled...

1810
01:33:20,416 --> 01:33:24,083
largely,
by pornography.

1811
01:33:24,166 --> 01:33:25,999
Do you realize how many

1812
01:33:26,083 --> 01:33:28,458
serial killers you
would have out there

1813
01:33:28,541 --> 01:33:30,917
if pornography could do that?

1814
01:33:30,999 --> 01:33:33,041
It's so simple-minded.

1815
01:33:33,124 --> 01:33:36,375
I think it's clear that sexual
sadists, like Ted Bundy,

1816
01:33:36,458 --> 01:33:38,249
are very much interested
in pornography.

1817
01:33:38,333 --> 01:33:42,249
Research I've recently done
with Roy Hazelwood of the FBI

1818
01:33:42,333 --> 01:33:45,750
indicated that more than 50%
of sexually sadistic offenders,

1819
01:33:45,833 --> 01:33:48,541
like Bundy, had sizable
pornography collections.

1820
01:33:48,625 --> 01:33:51,999
Would curbing pornography
make our society any safer?

1821
01:33:52,083 --> 01:33:54,500
It would do more good than
banning assault rifles would do.

1822
01:33:54,583 --> 01:33:56,999
Bryant Gumbel:
What kinds of materials
are, perhaps,

1823
01:33:57,083 --> 01:33:59,792
-more harmful?
-Well, number one on my list,

1824
01:33:59,875 --> 01:34:03,249
as of 1986, was the covers
of "Detective" magazines.

1825
01:34:03,333 --> 01:34:05,833
♪ ♪

1826
01:34:05,917 --> 01:34:08,875
Dorothy:
Bundy's grandfather
had a real collection

1827
01:34:08,958 --> 01:34:12,416
of pornography that he
was exposed to very young,

1828
01:34:12,500 --> 01:34:14,083
pulp fiction,

1829
01:34:14,166 --> 01:34:16,625
sex and murder
and stuff like that.

1830
01:34:16,708 --> 01:34:21,541
And he would fantasize about
these sexual, murderous

1831
01:34:21,625 --> 01:34:23,124
kinds of things.

1832
01:34:23,208 --> 01:34:27,583
And he said
it would build and build,

1833
01:34:27,667 --> 01:34:30,875
and then,
it had to be released.

1834
01:34:32,667 --> 01:34:35,124
Ted Bundy:
Those of us who have been

1835
01:34:35,208 --> 01:34:40,208
so much influenced by
pornographic violence

1836
01:34:40,291 --> 01:34:42,708
are not some kind of
inherent monsters.

1837
01:34:42,792 --> 01:34:45,750
We are your sons
and we are your husbands.

1838
01:34:45,833 --> 01:34:48,166
We grew up in regular families,

1839
01:34:48,249 --> 01:34:49,708
and pornography can reach out

1840
01:34:49,792 --> 01:34:53,083
and snatch a kid out
of any house today.

1841
01:34:53,166 --> 01:34:57,166
Dorothy:
Clearly, it had
some influence on him,

1842
01:34:57,249 --> 01:34:59,917
but I think there were
other explanations.

1843
01:34:59,999 --> 01:35:01,541
♪ ♪

1844
01:35:01,625 --> 01:35:04,500
And so, I interviewed
family members.

1845
01:35:04,583 --> 01:35:07,875
His aunts, an uncle,
his mother.

1846
01:35:09,792 --> 01:35:12,458
I learned that his
grandmother suffered

1847
01:35:12,541 --> 01:35:14,708
from a depressive disorder.

1848
01:35:14,792 --> 01:35:17,208
She was psychiatrically
hospitalized

1849
01:35:17,291 --> 01:35:20,333
and treated with
electroconvulsive therapy.

1850
01:35:20,416 --> 01:35:22,041
(electricity buzzing)

1851
01:35:22,124 --> 01:35:25,958
I was talking to
Aunt Julia, and I said,

1852
01:35:26,041 --> 01:35:29,124
"What was he like
as a little boy?"

1853
01:35:29,208 --> 01:35:32,708
And she said, "Well,
when he was 3 years old,

1854
01:35:32,792 --> 01:35:35,875
"he used to come up
with kitchen knives,

1855
01:35:35,958 --> 01:35:38,208
"and he'd stand

1856
01:35:38,291 --> 01:35:40,291
at the door,
then he'd come in."

1857
01:35:40,375 --> 01:35:43,249
He picked up the blanket

1858
01:35:43,333 --> 01:35:47,249
and put the knives
around her on the bed.

1859
01:35:47,333 --> 01:35:50,249
And he had that
glint in his eye.

1860
01:35:52,041 --> 01:35:55,667
This was the first,
the very, very first time

1861
01:35:55,750 --> 01:36:00,249
that we realized
how aberrant he had been.

1862
01:36:00,333 --> 01:36:02,166
I was so stunned.

1863
01:36:03,625 --> 01:36:05,249
Reporter 1:
Convicted murderer
Theodore Bundy

1864
01:36:05,333 --> 01:36:08,291
is taking new steps to avoid
Florida's electric chair.

1865
01:36:08,375 --> 01:36:10,249
Reporter 2:
Armed guards brought Bundy

1866
01:36:10,333 --> 01:36:12,375
to the Orlando Federal
Building for a hearing

1867
01:36:12,458 --> 01:36:14,541
to determine his
mental competency.

1868
01:36:14,625 --> 01:36:16,750
♪ ♪

1869
01:36:16,833 --> 01:36:20,541
Dorothy:
When I testified,
I had enough data

1870
01:36:20,625 --> 01:36:23,833
to make a diagnosis
of a bipolar disorder.

1871
01:36:23,917 --> 01:36:26,333
He had episodes of highs
where he could keep

1872
01:36:26,416 --> 01:36:29,792
going and going and going
and he was grandiose,

1873
01:36:29,875 --> 01:36:32,083
but these were
interspersed with periods

1874
01:36:32,166 --> 01:36:34,083
of terrible depression,

1875
01:36:34,166 --> 01:36:35,917
when he'd drop out
of school,

1876
01:36:35,999 --> 01:36:40,083
he would weep,
he would go off by himself.

1877
01:36:40,166 --> 01:36:43,083
On the stand,
I said he was not competent

1878
01:36:43,166 --> 01:36:44,875
either to represent himself,

1879
01:36:44,958 --> 01:36:46,958
or, really, to go to trial.

1880
01:36:47,041 --> 01:36:50,291
I'm not going through this
and you knew that, Your Honor.

1881
01:36:50,375 --> 01:36:53,833
Dorothy:
But the judge ruled that
he was competent enough,

1882
01:36:53,917 --> 01:36:56,999
and he upheld
the death sentence.

1883
01:36:57,083 --> 01:36:58,208
(static)

1884
01:36:58,291 --> 01:37:01,249
Reporter:
Salvador Dali was 84.

1885
01:37:01,333 --> 01:37:03,124
In Florida,
a convicted serial killer

1886
01:37:03,208 --> 01:37:06,124
is continuing his string
of 11th hour confessions.

1887
01:37:06,208 --> 01:37:09,166
As NBC's Ed Ravel reports,
Ted Bundy is apparently trying

1888
01:37:09,249 --> 01:37:12,958
to delay his execution scheduled
for the electric chair tomorrow.

1889
01:37:13,041 --> 01:37:16,124
Dorothy:
A few years after
I first saw him,

1890
01:37:16,208 --> 01:37:19,166
I got a call
from his lawyer,

1891
01:37:19,249 --> 01:37:22,917
saying he wanted to meet with
me before he was executed.

1892
01:37:22,999 --> 01:37:25,500
So I did go.

1893
01:37:25,583 --> 01:37:28,166
The attorney, she said,

1894
01:37:28,249 --> 01:37:31,083
"Ted wants to know
if you can

1895
01:37:31,166 --> 01:37:35,333
say that he is incompetent
to be executed."

1896
01:37:35,416 --> 01:37:38,917
And I said, "I would
be laughed out of town.

1897
01:37:38,999 --> 01:37:40,833
I just can't do that."
And I said,

1898
01:37:40,917 --> 01:37:43,375
"And all the work
that we've done

1899
01:37:43,458 --> 01:37:46,541
"to understand people who

1900
01:37:46,625 --> 01:37:50,875
"do these kinds of things
will not be considered valid

1901
01:37:50,958 --> 01:37:54,500
if I say something
as ridiculous as that."

1902
01:37:54,583 --> 01:37:56,750
Gibney:
But he clearly knew he
was going to be executed.

1903
01:37:56,833 --> 01:37:58,583
-Yes.
-He knew what
an execution meant.

1904
01:37:58,667 --> 01:38:00,583
That's right,
and he knew what he had done.

1905
01:38:00,667 --> 01:38:02,041
♪ ♪

1906
01:38:02,124 --> 01:38:04,208
And I said,
"Besides, the warden

1907
01:38:04,291 --> 01:38:06,708
"has three other
psychiatrists out there,

1908
01:38:06,792 --> 01:38:09,958
waiting to refute this."

1909
01:38:10,041 --> 01:38:11,625
Gibney:
What was his reaction?

1910
01:38:11,708 --> 01:38:14,625
He said he, he could
understand that.

1911
01:38:15,625 --> 01:38:17,833
Dorothy (on tape):
Testing.

1912
01:38:17,917 --> 01:38:21,375
Dorothy:
He gave me permission
to tape the conversation.

1913
01:38:21,458 --> 01:38:24,124
Dorothy (on tape):

1914
01:38:25,708 --> 01:38:28,750
Dorothy:
I asked him why did
he ask to see me.

1915
01:38:29,375 --> 01:38:30,875
And he said...

1916
01:38:30,958 --> 01:38:33,917
Bundy (on tape):

1917
01:38:37,833 --> 01:38:43,625
I was not fascinated
by his perversions.

1918
01:38:43,708 --> 01:38:49,249
I was far more interested in
how he got the way he was.

1919
01:38:49,333 --> 01:38:52,416
Narrator:
Whatever his motives for
asking me to come to Starke

1920
01:38:52,500 --> 01:38:53,917
and mine for coming,

1921
01:38:53,999 --> 01:38:55,917
our four and a half
hours together

1922
01:38:55,999 --> 01:38:59,500
on the day before his
execution were riveting.

1923
01:38:59,583 --> 01:39:01,708
Dorothy (on tape):

1924
01:39:09,333 --> 01:39:11,333
Bundy (on tape):

1925
01:39:24,041 --> 01:39:26,458
Bundy (on tape):

1926
01:39:26,541 --> 01:39:27,958
(door creaking)

1927
01:39:28,041 --> 01:39:29,958
Narrator:
When the tape recorder
was off,

1928
01:39:30,041 --> 01:39:32,083
Bundy told me
that he had had

1929
01:39:32,166 --> 01:39:35,583
a sexual encounter
with one of his sisters.

1930
01:39:35,667 --> 01:39:37,917
Later, his mother told me

1931
01:39:37,999 --> 01:39:40,041
that Bundy
had told his sister

1932
01:39:40,124 --> 01:39:41,541
that she should be careful

1933
01:39:41,625 --> 01:39:43,333
because there was
someone out in the world

1934
01:39:43,416 --> 01:39:46,750
who was killing women
who looked just like her.

1935
01:39:47,958 --> 01:39:49,667
Bit by bit, I was beginning

1936
01:39:49,750 --> 01:39:53,249
to see
a very different story
in Bundy's family life.

1937
01:39:53,333 --> 01:39:56,875
One that would upend
the myth of pure evil.

1938
01:39:59,375 --> 01:40:02,541
(horn blaring, train roaring)

1939
01:40:04,416 --> 01:40:07,416
♪ ♪

1940
01:40:14,083 --> 01:40:16,750
(rumbling)

1941
01:40:22,750 --> 01:40:24,208
(doorbell rings)

1942
01:40:24,291 --> 01:40:26,999
(door opens)

1943
01:40:27,083 --> 01:40:28,458
-Dr. Lewis, how are you?
-Hello!

1944
01:40:28,541 --> 01:40:30,917
Dorothy:
The last interview
I did tape,

1945
01:40:30,999 --> 01:40:34,500
and there was a point
in that interview

1946
01:40:34,583 --> 01:40:37,500
when he said, "I want you to
turn the tape off." Only once.

1947
01:40:37,583 --> 01:40:38,999
And that was when
he talked about

1948
01:40:39,083 --> 01:40:40,500
his relationship
with his sister.

1949
01:40:40,583 --> 01:40:42,583
I didn't talk to him
about his sisters.

1950
01:40:42,667 --> 01:40:44,750
I was basically talking
about crimes with him.

1951
01:40:44,833 --> 01:40:46,833
Really? Did you--
But even earlier on,

1952
01:40:46,917 --> 01:40:49,792
-he didn't tell
you that he had--
-No, I didn't...

1953
01:40:49,875 --> 01:40:52,375
He was always protective
with his family. I mean,

1954
01:40:52,458 --> 01:40:55,583
he would tell me things that
I wouldn't even ask him about.

1955
01:40:55,667 --> 01:40:58,041
Dorothy:
Bill Hagmaier,
he was the major

1956
01:40:58,124 --> 01:41:00,458
FBI agent on the case.

1957
01:41:00,541 --> 01:41:04,083
He had spent
a lot of time with Bundy,

1958
01:41:04,166 --> 01:41:06,083
much more time than I did.

1959
01:41:06,166 --> 01:41:08,792
So, that's why
I wanted to see him.

1960
01:41:09,625 --> 01:41:13,500
Each of us was close to Bundy

1961
01:41:13,583 --> 01:41:16,333
in a different kind of capacity.

1962
01:41:16,416 --> 01:41:20,750
We were the ones that
Bundy trusted.

1963
01:41:20,833 --> 01:41:23,583
♪ ♪

1964
01:41:23,667 --> 01:41:27,166
Bill Hagmaier:
I was assigned to
the Behavioral Science Unit,

1965
01:41:27,249 --> 01:41:29,667
and they had already
started to do

1966
01:41:29,750 --> 01:41:31,917
some research
on murderers,

1967
01:41:31,999 --> 01:41:34,333
and Bundy's name came up.

1968
01:41:34,416 --> 01:41:36,999
So I wrote him a letter,
just general letter,

1969
01:41:37,083 --> 01:41:39,875
and Ted invited
me to visit him.

1970
01:41:39,958 --> 01:41:41,541
Gibney:
Were you able to get
Bundy to talk much

1971
01:41:41,625 --> 01:41:44,249
about his family
and his childhood?

1972
01:41:44,333 --> 01:41:47,708
Hagmaier:
We talked about it
quite a bit.

1973
01:41:47,792 --> 01:41:49,917
He wasn't telling the truth
on all this, I know.

1974
01:41:49,999 --> 01:41:52,875
Everything was cotton candy
for him and his family.

1975
01:41:52,958 --> 01:41:55,958
He didn't want to say anything
bad about his family at all.

1976
01:41:56,041 --> 01:41:57,208
Or his mother.

1977
01:41:58,500 --> 01:42:00,750
Dorothy:
Bundy's mother
was impregnated

1978
01:42:00,833 --> 01:42:03,958
by someone,
we're not sure who it is.

1979
01:42:04,041 --> 01:42:06,375
I asked her something
about how she felt

1980
01:42:06,458 --> 01:42:08,625
when she knew
she was pregnant.

1981
01:42:08,708 --> 01:42:11,875
And I don't know if
I actually said abortion

1982
01:42:11,958 --> 01:42:15,792
or if she brought it up,
but she said, "He,"

1983
01:42:15,875 --> 01:42:17,750
now meaning the father,

1984
01:42:17,833 --> 01:42:20,291
"He took me to a doctor.

1985
01:42:20,375 --> 01:42:24,291
"The doctor gave me
pills for an abortion,

1986
01:42:24,375 --> 01:42:25,917
but nothing happened."

1987
01:42:25,999 --> 01:42:29,625
-Gibney: So it was an attempted
abortion that didn't succeed?
-Yeah, yeah.

1988
01:42:29,708 --> 01:42:32,333
Which is not supposed
to be so good for the baby.

1989
01:42:34,875 --> 01:42:36,541
Her father made
arrangements

1990
01:42:36,625 --> 01:42:40,792
for her to go up to
a home for unwed mothers,

1991
01:42:40,875 --> 01:42:42,958
called the Lund Home.

1992
01:42:43,041 --> 01:42:45,416
She was at the Lund Home
for two months,

1993
01:42:45,500 --> 01:42:48,041
and then gave birth to him.

1994
01:42:48,124 --> 01:42:51,583
She wouldn't allow her
father to come up at all

1995
01:42:51,667 --> 01:42:54,999
until after the baby
was born,

1996
01:42:55,083 --> 01:42:57,667
and she signed papers

1997
01:42:57,750 --> 01:43:01,124
saying he could be
put up for adoption.

1998
01:43:01,208 --> 01:43:03,999
And then,
her father came up

1999
01:43:04,083 --> 01:43:07,249
and brought her home,
back to Philadelphia.

2000
01:43:07,333 --> 01:43:10,375
However, for two months,
he kept saying,

2001
01:43:10,458 --> 01:43:13,500
"We have to get
the baby back.
We want the baby back."

2002
01:43:13,583 --> 01:43:16,416
And finally, she gave in.

2003
01:43:16,500 --> 01:43:19,792
She went and picked
the baby up,
brought the baby home,

2004
01:43:19,875 --> 01:43:22,667
and then her father
insisted

2005
01:43:22,750 --> 01:43:25,708
that he be known
as the baby's father,

2006
01:43:25,792 --> 01:43:28,375
and that the baby
call him Father,

2007
01:43:28,458 --> 01:43:31,667
and that Louise be
known as his sister.

2008
01:43:31,750 --> 01:43:34,124
♪ ♪

2009
01:43:35,416 --> 01:43:37,541
He was an incredibly
violent man,

2010
01:43:37,625 --> 01:43:39,917
and, apparently,
a very, very disturbed man,

2011
01:43:39,999 --> 01:43:44,166
according to interviews that
I've had with relatives.

2012
01:43:44,249 --> 01:43:46,416
Dorothy (on tape):

2013
01:43:50,041 --> 01:43:52,667
Bundy (on tape):

2014
01:43:58,500 --> 01:44:00,124
(traffic noise)

2015
01:44:00,208 --> 01:44:02,124
Dorothy:
The whole family

2016
01:44:02,208 --> 01:44:04,875
knows the story
that in the car

2017
01:44:04,958 --> 01:44:07,541
while the grandfather
was driving,

2018
01:44:07,625 --> 01:44:09,541
one of his younger
brothers, I believe,

2019
01:44:09,625 --> 01:44:15,333
said, "Oh! Tell us about
Ted's real father."

2020
01:44:15,416 --> 01:44:16,750
And, apparently,

2021
01:44:16,833 --> 01:44:20,999
the grandfather was out of
his mind, filled with rage.

2022
01:44:22,708 --> 01:44:25,792
He had total control
over Bundy's mother.

2023
01:44:25,875 --> 01:44:30,291
He had total control over
how this child was
gonna be raised,

2024
01:44:30,375 --> 01:44:33,583
and, um, and the family
told Dorothy that

2025
01:44:33,667 --> 01:44:36,999
they had to help the mother
and the child, Ted,

2026
01:44:37,083 --> 01:44:39,792
escape from the father
and go cross-country

2027
01:44:39,875 --> 01:44:42,541
to get away from him.

2028
01:44:42,625 --> 01:44:44,708
Dorothy:
Things were horrendous
for Bundy

2029
01:44:44,792 --> 01:44:46,416
from conception onward.

2030
01:44:46,500 --> 01:44:49,625
♪ ♪

2031
01:44:55,667 --> 01:44:57,583
(birds chirping)

2032
01:44:57,667 --> 01:44:59,875
(papers rustling)

2033
01:45:01,917 --> 01:45:05,958
Several years after
Bundy was executed,

2034
01:45:06,041 --> 01:45:08,708
I got a phone call
from his wife, and--

2035
01:45:08,792 --> 01:45:12,041
who I had never spoken to,
never heard from before,

2036
01:45:12,124 --> 01:45:15,708
and I think I couldn't even
contact her while he was alive.

2037
01:45:15,792 --> 01:45:20,124
And she said a friend of
hers was coming to New York.

2038
01:45:20,208 --> 01:45:24,792
She was going to give her
a packet of love letters

2039
01:45:24,875 --> 01:45:28,375
that Bundy had
written to her.

2040
01:45:29,708 --> 01:45:34,625
The handwriting was
all very much alike.

2041
01:45:34,708 --> 01:45:37,416
But the signatures
were different.

2042
01:45:38,999 --> 01:45:44,625
See look. This would be a--
an ordinary thing.

2043
01:45:44,708 --> 01:45:47,958
An ordinary writing, yeah.

2044
01:45:48,041 --> 01:45:50,416
But, uh, here,
look at the difference.

2045
01:45:50,500 --> 01:45:52,708
That is so aberrant

2046
01:45:52,792 --> 01:45:55,667
and out of control
and, uh, different.

2047
01:45:55,750 --> 01:46:00,375
He often signed different
names to his letters,

2048
01:46:00,458 --> 01:46:04,875
but the most important one
is that some of them

2049
01:46:04,958 --> 01:46:06,291
are signed "Sam."

2050
01:46:06,375 --> 01:46:08,999
Oh look, here's Sam.

2051
01:46:09,083 --> 01:46:11,792
Here's Sam.

2052
01:46:11,875 --> 01:46:13,708
Here's another Sam.

2053
01:46:13,792 --> 01:46:16,416
No, it's a Sambo.
It's a version of Sam.

2054
01:46:16,500 --> 01:46:17,917
Sambo.

2055
01:46:19,166 --> 01:46:21,166
It turns out that

2056
01:46:21,249 --> 01:46:24,583
Sam was the name
of his grandfather.

2057
01:46:26,458 --> 01:46:29,792
People who are multiples,
or who have DID,

2058
01:46:29,875 --> 01:46:33,333
it's very common for
them to have an alter

2059
01:46:33,416 --> 01:46:35,667
who is the abuser.

2060
01:46:35,750 --> 01:46:41,416
When I saw that, I thought,
how did I so miss this?

2061
01:46:41,500 --> 01:46:44,416
We realized that Sam
was the grandfather,

2062
01:46:44,500 --> 01:46:47,708
and that he had taken
on this persona...

2063
01:46:47,792 --> 01:46:50,500
With all the work that
we have been doing,

2064
01:46:50,583 --> 01:46:53,708
there are numerous
data that show

2065
01:46:53,792 --> 01:46:56,208
he is somewhere on the continuum

2066
01:46:56,291 --> 01:46:59,500
of Dissociative
Identity Disorder.

2067
01:47:00,958 --> 01:47:02,541
When he was going
to be sentenced,

2068
01:47:02,625 --> 01:47:05,583
-he said to the judge...
-Bundy: I'm not
asking for mercy,

2069
01:47:05,667 --> 01:47:07,333
for I find it
somewhat absurd

2070
01:47:07,416 --> 01:47:10,750
to ask for mercy for
something I did not do.

2071
01:47:10,833 --> 01:47:14,708
Dorothy:
And there was one time
after he had told me

2072
01:47:14,792 --> 01:47:16,833
about many of the murders.

2073
01:47:16,917 --> 01:47:18,958
He came in and he sat down,

2074
01:47:19,041 --> 01:47:21,166
and his demeanor
was different.

2075
01:47:21,249 --> 01:47:25,083
And he said, "The person
sitting before you

2076
01:47:25,166 --> 01:47:28,750
never killed anyone."

2077
01:47:28,833 --> 01:47:31,041
I don't think
that he is kidding

2078
01:47:31,124 --> 01:47:33,583
or pretending that
he's innocent.

2079
01:47:33,667 --> 01:47:36,333
I think that there
is a Bundy state

2080
01:47:36,416 --> 01:47:39,041
where he did not do
any of those murders.

2081
01:47:39,124 --> 01:47:40,291
♪ ♪

2082
01:47:40,375 --> 01:47:45,249
In fact, he referred
to the person who killed,

2083
01:47:45,333 --> 01:47:47,124
he called that The Entity.

2084
01:47:47,208 --> 01:47:49,375
Bundy (on tape):

2085
01:48:28,208 --> 01:48:30,208
(indistinct tape chatter)

2086
01:48:30,291 --> 01:48:32,708
Dorothy:
I had a clue then

2087
01:48:32,792 --> 01:48:36,333
that he might suffer from
a dissociative disorder,

2088
01:48:36,416 --> 01:48:38,416
but then when I saw the writing,

2089
01:48:38,500 --> 01:48:41,500
and I saw that he did, at times,

2090
01:48:41,583 --> 01:48:44,333
seem to become his grandfather,

2091
01:48:44,416 --> 01:48:47,667
who was a very violent
kind of person,

2092
01:48:47,750 --> 01:48:49,416
that's when I got interested.

2093
01:48:50,583 --> 01:48:52,333
So yeah, uh...

2094
01:48:52,416 --> 01:48:55,667
I'm not the first to have

2095
01:48:55,750 --> 01:48:59,583
wondered whether his grandfather
was indeed his father.

2096
01:48:59,667 --> 01:49:02,041
♪ ♪

2097
01:49:02,124 --> 01:49:04,333
May I ask you
a question?

2098
01:49:04,416 --> 01:49:07,750
There are a lot of reasons
that I think this would--

2099
01:49:07,833 --> 01:49:10,083
and you've heard
this also before.

2100
01:49:10,166 --> 01:49:13,875
Other people who
have thought that--

2101
01:49:13,958 --> 01:49:16,875
I've said he's his own
father, but he isn't.

2102
01:49:16,958 --> 01:49:19,792
I-I think the grandfather
may have...

2103
01:49:21,667 --> 01:49:23,208
Hagmaier:
I-I don't know.

2104
01:49:23,291 --> 01:49:25,667
I know that was one of
the first things that
Louise said to me

2105
01:49:25,750 --> 01:49:28,208
when she met me.
She just said,
"I just want you to know

2106
01:49:28,291 --> 01:49:31,208
right now that my father
is not his father."

2107
01:49:31,291 --> 01:49:34,500
-(laughing)
-I didn't-- I didn't even
ask her the question.

2108
01:49:34,583 --> 01:49:36,958
That is amazing
'cause I did not...

2109
01:49:37,041 --> 01:49:38,416
(voice fading)

2110
01:49:38,500 --> 01:49:40,792
A number of people
have suspected

2111
01:49:40,875 --> 01:49:43,583
that there was incest,
but nobody has ever come out

2112
01:49:43,667 --> 01:49:45,708
and said that there is
incest in the family.

2113
01:49:45,792 --> 01:49:47,917
If we were to get blood,

2114
01:49:48,917 --> 01:49:51,625
we could look at the genes

2115
01:49:51,708 --> 01:49:55,083
in the blood sample,
the DNA.

2116
01:49:55,166 --> 01:49:58,999
We all have a
certain number of
identical matching genes.

2117
01:50:00,083 --> 01:50:03,416
But, if you have more than

2118
01:50:03,500 --> 01:50:07,083
a certain number
of identical genes,

2119
01:50:07,166 --> 01:50:09,458
it is an indication
of incest

2120
01:50:09,541 --> 01:50:12,708
because you have too much
from the same family.

2121
01:50:12,792 --> 01:50:14,375
♪ ♪

2122
01:50:14,458 --> 01:50:16,917
Basically, what you're
getting to, does incest

2123
01:50:16,999 --> 01:50:19,792
influence serial
killer development?

2124
01:50:19,875 --> 01:50:23,291
(stammers):
I doubt that the FBI's lab

2125
01:50:23,375 --> 01:50:26,333
is going to give out
that for that purpose.

2126
01:50:26,416 --> 01:50:29,625
Not saying it wouldn't
help us understand behavior

2127
01:50:29,708 --> 01:50:33,458
in people with it,
but it's just...

2128
01:50:33,541 --> 01:50:37,291
Gibney:
So were you able to
get DNA from the FBI?

2129
01:50:37,375 --> 01:50:40,708
Dorothy:
Oh no. The FBI isn't
generous that way.

2130
01:50:42,124 --> 01:50:44,541
But I was able
to get a sample

2131
01:50:44,625 --> 01:50:47,958
elsewhere, and according
to that report,

2132
01:50:48,041 --> 01:50:50,625
his grandfather
was not his father.

2133
01:50:50,708 --> 01:50:53,458
He was not
the product of incest.

2134
01:50:53,541 --> 01:50:55,792
Gibney:
Was there some actual
disappointment when you--

2135
01:50:55,875 --> 01:50:59,708
-Dorothy: Oh yes.
Oh, oh yes.
-Gibney: And why would it be

2136
01:50:59,792 --> 01:51:02,792
so important to know
whether or not
Bundy's grandfather

2137
01:51:02,875 --> 01:51:04,458
was also his father?

2138
01:51:04,541 --> 01:51:07,124
I don't think
genetically it matters.

2139
01:51:07,208 --> 01:51:09,416
That I really don't believe.

2140
01:51:09,500 --> 01:51:11,249
Uh, you know, it might.

2141
01:51:11,333 --> 01:51:14,333
It may be
that he had more, uh,

2142
01:51:14,416 --> 01:51:17,792
a greater likelihood of
having a bipolar disorder,

2143
01:51:17,875 --> 01:51:20,833
but, uh, I think that--

2144
01:51:20,917 --> 01:51:22,917
I think he was treated

2145
01:51:22,999 --> 01:51:25,917
throughout his
lifetime as though

2146
01:51:25,999 --> 01:51:28,541
he were some
kind of child that

2147
01:51:28,625 --> 01:51:31,416
you don't want
to have around.

2148
01:51:31,500 --> 01:51:33,291
♪ ♪

2149
01:51:33,375 --> 01:51:36,208
His mother,
when I spoke with her,

2150
01:51:36,291 --> 01:51:39,583
she said, "I can't wait
till it's all over."

2151
01:51:41,958 --> 01:51:44,249
-Gibney: You mean the execution?
-Yeah.

2152
01:51:44,333 --> 01:51:47,833
I-I find it hard to
interpret it any other way.

2153
01:51:47,917 --> 01:51:51,458
Yeah. But can you imagine?
"I can't wait
till it's all over."

2154
01:51:51,541 --> 01:51:52,917
Uh...

2155
01:51:54,625 --> 01:51:56,708
Reporter:
There was the atmosphere
of a public hanging as

2156
01:51:56,792 --> 01:51:59,667
hundreds of singing,
chanting
death penalty supporters

2157
01:51:59,750 --> 01:52:01,291
gathered at
the Florida State Prison,

2158
01:52:01,375 --> 01:52:03,667
demanding the execution
of serial killer

2159
01:52:03,750 --> 01:52:05,416
Ted Bundy be carried out.

2160
01:52:05,500 --> 01:52:07,958
And when the
official witnesses
came out of the prison,

2161
01:52:08,041 --> 01:52:09,625
signaling the death
of Bundy,

2162
01:52:09,708 --> 01:52:13,500
-there were cheers.
-(crowd cheering)

2163
01:52:13,583 --> 01:52:16,667
(rumbling)

2164
01:52:19,750 --> 01:52:21,875
Dorothy:
You know,
it's taken me 30 years

2165
01:52:21,958 --> 01:52:23,458
to get to this point,

2166
01:52:23,541 --> 01:52:26,875
but we could've learned
a whole lot more from him.

2167
01:52:26,958 --> 01:52:31,708
If he were not killed,
we could've learned a lot about

2168
01:52:31,792 --> 01:52:35,208
serial murderers, but, uh...

2169
01:52:35,291 --> 01:52:37,999
they killed him.
They, uh...

2170
01:52:38,917 --> 01:52:41,999
♪ ♪

2171
01:52:54,166 --> 01:52:58,041
(wind blowing)

2172
01:52:58,124 --> 01:52:59,583
Female Reporter (on TV):
And we have
breaking news today

2173
01:52:59,667 --> 01:53:01,249
from the
Justice Department.

2174
01:53:01,333 --> 01:53:04,249
A new directive
from Attorney General
Bill Barr to reinstate

2175
01:53:04,333 --> 01:53:06,875
executions of federal
death penalty prisoners

2176
01:53:06,958 --> 01:53:08,917
for the first time in
nearly two decades.

2177
01:53:08,999 --> 01:53:12,083
But Attorney General Barr
says it's time to restore

2178
01:53:12,166 --> 01:53:14,625
the death penalty for
the sake of victims

2179
01:53:14,708 --> 01:53:16,667
and their families.
He points out that

2180
01:53:16,750 --> 01:53:19,667
under administrations
of both parties,

2181
01:53:19,750 --> 01:53:21,958
attorneys general
have approved seeking...

2182
01:53:22,041 --> 01:53:25,625
Dorothy:
When I heard that,
I thought that all of

2183
01:53:25,708 --> 01:53:29,124
the advances that
we had made in terms of

2184
01:53:29,208 --> 01:53:33,708
being humane,
uh, were lost.

2185
01:53:33,792 --> 01:53:35,458
♪ ♪

2186
01:53:35,541 --> 01:53:38,667
Barr, he puzzles me.

2187
01:53:38,750 --> 01:53:40,500
These five people.
If indeed,

2188
01:53:40,583 --> 01:53:43,416
they've done the most
grotesque things,

2189
01:53:43,500 --> 01:53:46,999
we know that
the most disturbed,
the most psychotic,

2190
01:53:47,083 --> 01:53:50,333
or the most brain-damaged
killers,

2191
01:53:50,416 --> 01:53:53,917
do the most bizarre,
grotesque, horrendous
kinds of things.

2192
01:53:53,999 --> 01:53:55,958
So he was picking

2193
01:53:56,041 --> 01:54:00,917
the sickest of the sick
to execute.

2194
01:54:03,625 --> 01:54:07,541
You know, I'm not sure
that we've come as far as
we think we have.

2195
01:54:09,083 --> 01:54:12,208
It feels as if all the work

2196
01:54:12,291 --> 01:54:15,667
that I had done,
that Dick Burr had done,

2197
01:54:15,750 --> 01:54:18,333
that, for the moment,
it had been--

2198
01:54:18,416 --> 01:54:20,875
It was like flushed
down the toilet.

2199
01:54:20,958 --> 01:54:23,291
(mob chattering)

2200
01:54:23,375 --> 01:54:26,708
As if we'd gone back
to like the Middle Ages.

2201
01:54:29,249 --> 01:54:31,875
(chatter continues)

2202
01:54:31,958 --> 01:54:34,583
♪ ♪

2203
01:54:34,667 --> 01:54:37,583
I remember one time,
someone asked me,

2204
01:54:37,667 --> 01:54:39,833
"When you see in a movie

2205
01:54:39,917 --> 01:54:42,208
"or read about
a witch being burned,

2206
01:54:42,291 --> 01:54:45,667
are you watching it,
or are you the witch?"

2207
01:54:45,750 --> 01:54:48,917
(inaudible)

2208
01:54:48,999 --> 01:54:51,875
I'm always the witch.

2209
01:54:51,958 --> 01:54:54,667
-I think, what a horrible,
horrible thing.
-(flames roar)

2210
01:54:54,750 --> 01:54:58,208
And picture the flames
coming up around me,

2211
01:54:58,291 --> 01:55:02,166
and wondering how
someone could do that
to someone else.

2212
01:55:03,458 --> 01:55:06,166
It appalled me
and it fascinated me.

2213
01:55:11,458 --> 01:55:16,458
It reminds me of taking
a tour of death row.

2214
01:55:16,541 --> 01:55:20,917
First, it was the area
where the visitors watch.

2215
01:55:20,999 --> 01:55:23,375
And then,
they took us around

2216
01:55:23,458 --> 01:55:26,458
to go right into
the execution room.

2217
01:55:26,541 --> 01:55:30,291
This wooden chair
with leather belts.

2218
01:55:31,917 --> 01:55:34,375
I did picture
myself there.

2219
01:55:34,458 --> 01:55:37,541
♪ ♪

2220
01:55:39,500 --> 01:55:41,708
Narrator:
Ted Bundy, Johnny Garrett,

2221
01:55:41,792 --> 01:55:45,041
Marie Moore, Jonathan, me.

2222
01:55:45,124 --> 01:55:47,416
Could any of us
become a murderer?

2223
01:55:47,500 --> 01:55:50,750
Could anyone in the world
become a murderer?

2224
01:55:50,833 --> 01:55:52,416
I think so.

2225
01:55:52,500 --> 01:55:57,291
Murderers are made,
not born.

2226
01:55:57,375 --> 01:56:00,208
The more we understand
about the genesis
of violence,

2227
01:56:00,291 --> 01:56:04,083
the harder it is
to draw a line between
guilt and innocence,

2228
01:56:04,166 --> 01:56:06,041
sanity and insanity.

2229
01:56:07,041 --> 01:56:08,833
(click, electricity zapping)

2230
01:56:08,917 --> 01:56:10,541
Dorothy:
As human beings,
we struggle to cope

2231
01:56:10,625 --> 01:56:12,124
with the need
for protection,

2232
01:56:12,208 --> 01:56:13,708
the desire for revenge,

2233
01:56:13,792 --> 01:56:15,875
and decency and morality.

2234
01:56:15,958 --> 01:56:19,124
But to understand
sometimes means to forgive,

2235
01:56:19,208 --> 01:56:23,208
and these days,
people aren't in a
very forgiving mood.

2236
01:56:23,291 --> 01:56:25,083
Maybe Ted Bundy was right.

2237
01:56:25,166 --> 01:56:28,792
We are all far more
curious about what
the murderer did,

2238
01:56:28,875 --> 01:56:30,458
the gory details
of the crime,

2239
01:56:30,541 --> 01:56:32,999
than about why they did it.

2240
01:56:33,083 --> 01:56:35,792
It's the act of murder
that fascinates us

2241
01:56:35,875 --> 01:56:38,458
and tickles our
own limbic systems.

2242
01:56:38,541 --> 01:56:41,041
No wonder people fight
for seats at executions.

2243
01:56:41,124 --> 01:56:42,999
(fireworks blasting)

2244
01:56:43,083 --> 01:56:46,208
Is that, at least in part,
why I do the work I do?

2245
01:56:46,291 --> 01:56:48,583
-(projector clicking)
-Maybe.

2246
01:56:48,667 --> 01:56:50,875
I wouldn't be surprised.

2247
01:56:53,375 --> 01:56:55,291
(projector stops)

2248
01:56:56,708 --> 01:56:59,792
♪ ♪

2249
01:57:25,999 --> 01:57:29,124
♪ ♪