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This program is
rated 14+, and contains
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scenes of violence and
mature subject matter.
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Viewer discretion is advised.
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A gruesome incident
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inside a Toronto
massage parlour.
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A woman stabbed to death
over the lunch hour,
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two others seriously injured.
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She was
the mother of a young child.
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She was just a very caring,
warm person.
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So the one girl who was killed
and the other one who was hurt,
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had you ever met them
before that day?
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- No.
- So you had nothing
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- against them personally.
- No.
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He said that he went
to the spa to kill these women.
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The, uh, incel group.
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Is that a group you've been
associated with for a while?
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You don't choose
to become an incel.
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You just are born one.
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He made some utterances
that he came to kill,
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and that he wished
he would've gotten more.
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- More women.
- More women.
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It was an unanswerable,
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undefendable case.
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Welcome to Crime Beat.
I'm Antony Robart.
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In early 2020, a group of women
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working at an erotic
massage parlour in Toronto
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were confronted with
a horrifying attack.
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An attack that didn't
just devastate lives,
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it forever changed
how Canadian courts view
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an online hate group known
for its extreme misogyny.
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Here now is Caryn Lieberman
and "The Incel Murder."
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Well,
the call came in at just after
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a quarter past 1:00
in the afternoon,
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advising me of a homicide
at the Crown Spa.
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It's in the area
of Wilson and Dufferin,
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which is a mixed
residential commercial area.
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This is Yorkdale Mall.
It's just south of there.
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And it's near
the Downsview Air Force Base.
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I knew it was
a massage parlour.
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There was a machete involved,
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and there was some
sharp force injuries
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inflicted on the victim.
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I was advised that there was
one person that was deceased,
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another person was injured.
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And then I'm making
my way over to the scene.
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The scene itself,
what did it look like?
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It was a bloody scene.
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The deceased was still there.
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She was butchered, basically.
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It was confined to
the front of the premises.
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What did we know
about this victim?
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She was working at the spa.
She was the receptionist.
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There was an attack,
an immediate attack.
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I can't say that
it was an altercation,
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because she had no chance
to defend herself.
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I was provided with video.
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The owner of the spa
had video installed,
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internal video,
and it captured everything.
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So he takes the time
to knock on the door.
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She goes thinking it's
gonna be a potential customer,
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and almost immediately explodes
into this horrific attack.
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It showed me the offender
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walking through the front door,
approaching the victim,
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and then immediately
brandishing the sword,
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engaging in a vicious,
sustained attack
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with the sword.
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There was a person who heard
the screams from downstairs.
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She went to investigate that
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and found this man
armed with a sword.
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She obviously heard
everything that was going on
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and trying to understand
what it was.
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She was very heroic.
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She realized that her friend,
her coworker was dead,
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and she feared for her life.
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She was confronted
by the offender,
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who then chased her
towards the front door.
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He caught her in that vestibule
and attacked her.
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He made a number of utterances
like he was gonna kill her,
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and he called her a [bleep]
and a whore and "die, die."
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She was able to
defend herself courageously.
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She was able to get the weapon
from him and injure him,
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not fatally, but sufficiently,
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and continued to escape
out the front door,
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saving her life and, frankly,
saving the lives of others.
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The video didn't
capture that attack.
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There was frosted glass,
but you could see
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limbs striking the glass
and smears of blood.
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She was hurt.
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And then it spilled out
onto the street.
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It spilled out
onto the street,
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where the offender
landed on the ground,
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and the surviving victim
then sought assistance
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from the public, and
basically looked for help.
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There was a number
of other witnesses
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that were in the area as well.
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They called 911.
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There was
a City of Toronto worker
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that was doing
a patrol of the area,
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and he drove past the spa
and saw our surviving victim,
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bloodied, asking for help.
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So he called 911 and got
her to stand beside his truck.
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The mailman pulled into
the plaza and saw the offender
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lying on the ground,
looking at him.
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So he backed out
and he called 911.
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And the third person,
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I believe he was also
working for the city,
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but he wasn't
on duty at the time.
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I saw a young woman.
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She was sitting on the side.
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They were bandaging her hands
in some white gauze.
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She had her shirt
was ripped and hanging
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and covered in blood,
and she was covered in blood.
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A witness
describes a disturbing scene
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in Downsview
over the noon hour,
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a triple stabbing at
an adult massage parlour.
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Toronto police were
called to the Crown Spa,
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but before they went inside,
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they found two people badly
hurt lying on the ground.
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Elizabeth Di Gregorio
saw it all unfold
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from across the street
at work.
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I saw her just sitting
beside the minimart,
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and they were
bandaging her hands.
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She had no shoes on,
just in leggings.
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And she had blood on her,
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and you could see blood
coming off of her sleeve.
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Maybe it was ripped
or something.
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You'd heard that it was
a machete that was used.
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What was this weapon?
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It was a sword. I believe
it's called a gladius sword.
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It almost looks like
one of those swords
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from the movie 300.
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You don't usually see
people using a sword
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as a murder weapon in the city.
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But the amount of damage
that you can do with that
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- must be extreme.
- Yeah.
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The victim was
severely injured by the sword.
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There was another man
laying on the ground
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in front of the store.
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Then tactical police came
with all their guns
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and tried booting in the door,
and then they got in the door.
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Police say the attack happened
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inside the business,
and when officers
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finally made their way in,
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they found another woman
in her twenties
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with obvious injuries.
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Paramedics arrived on scene
to assess that female,
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and unfortunately, that female,
her injuries were so serious
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that she was actually
pronounced here at the scene,
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so this is now
a homicide investigation.
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I detailed to
the primary investigator
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to do the notification
of the deceased's family.
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And the person responsible
was also injured.
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The surviving...
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I'm reluctant to call her
a victim. She's a survivor.
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Uh, she disarmed him, and
she stabbed him in the back.
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- That's brave.
- Yes.
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Yeah.
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There were
some plainclothes officers
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in the area that
were on other duties.
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They were able to respond
almost immediately
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and take the person into
custody and clear the spa,
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allowing for
emergency personnel
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to conduct assessments
and provide first aid.
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What was the extent
of his injuries?
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He had a cut to his hand,
which required stitches,
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and a stab wound to his back,
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which required
some staples to close.
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And was the sword
found beside him?
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Yes. It was an unusual case
because typically you don't
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have offenders of that age
commit such a violent attack.
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There didn't seem
to be a motive.
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- A teenager?
- Yeah.
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And it wasn't until I was in
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the forensic
identification vehicle
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and they were
searching his clothes
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that the note came to light,
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and it struck me that
this is something different.
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Welcome back.
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It was February 2020 when
a teenager wielding a sword
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showed up at a massage parlour
in Toronto,
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killing the receptionist
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and attacking
another female employee.
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What investigators
would learn about his motives
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would make the attack
all the more terrifying.
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We now return
to Caryn Lieberman
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with "The Incel Murder."
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The scene
was secured by police,
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and our forensic
identification officers
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were busy processing the scene.
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A gruesome incident inside
a Toronto massage parlour.
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A woman stabbed to death
over the lunch hour,
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two others seriously injured.
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Global's Caryn Lieberman
has the latest from the scene
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in the Dufferin
and Wilson area. Caryn?
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Alan, a woman
in her twenties is dead,
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another woman suffered
lacerations to her hands,
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and a teenage male
was rushed to hospital
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in life-threatening condition.
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He is in surgery,
and police say
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they are not looking for
any suspects at this time.
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Now, the triple stabbing
is said to have happened
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inside the Crown Spa,
but two of the injured,
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the teen and older woman,
were found outside.
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This coffee shop owner
just a block away says
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the employees of Crown Spa
often stop by,
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and he was saddened
to hear of the attack.
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They're very,
very pleasant girls,
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and actually,
they're super nice.
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So when you heard
that this happened,
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what were your thoughts?
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It's shocking for us
to see our neighbours,
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friends get stabbed like that.
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She was a mother
of a young child.
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She supported herself
by working at the spa.
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She was just a very caring,
warm person.
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Who just happened
to pick up a shift that day.
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Yeah.
She was covering for someone,
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or she came in early
for someone.
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The murder victim
would be identified as
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24-year-old
Ashley Noel Arzaga,
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described by family as...
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Ashley wasn't scheduled
to be there that morning.
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She got called in
to cover the front desk
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because an employee
had a dentist appointment,
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and the new receptionist
failed to show up.
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Ashley answered the call
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and arrived at
the Crown Spa around noon.
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Just after 12:30 p.m.,
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she'd open the door and
greet a man dressed in black.
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It was a larger scene
that required
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a substantial amount
of forensic examination.
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There was some blood evidence
behind the spa.
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There was blood evidence
going across the street
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towards a convenience store
on Anthony.
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There was the scene
where he was located,
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on the ground
in front of the spa.
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A key piece of evidence:
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the murder weapon,
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used to inflict an incredible
amount of violence
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and horrific injuries.
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I mean,
the pathology report says
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42 incised or stab wounds,
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and then there's
blunt force injuries.
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00:10:51,166 --> 00:10:53,333
At least 42 sharp force
injuries were present.
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Chest wall, lungs, abdomen,
liver, brachial arteries, vein.
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00:10:56,967 --> 00:11:00,400
There was multiple defensive
injuries on the arms and legs,
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00:11:00,567 --> 00:11:02,166
and there was
blunt force injury observed
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on the back
of the head and neck
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00:11:03,867 --> 00:11:06,266
from hitting the furniture
while collapsing backwards.
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"Defensive injuries"
meaning she fought back.
251
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,000
Yeah, or she held her arms up
as she was being attacked.
252
00:11:12,166 --> 00:11:14,734
I mean, that's a natural
human reaction, right?
253
00:11:14,900 --> 00:11:16,900
There was something
else about the murder weapon
254
00:11:17,066 --> 00:11:19,000
that jumped out
to investigators.
255
00:11:19,166 --> 00:11:21,600
The sword had
an inscription on it.
256
00:11:21,767 --> 00:11:23,266
"Thot slayer."
257
00:11:23,433 --> 00:11:24,767
"Thot slayer."
258
00:11:24,934 --> 00:11:26,667
Its meaning unclear,
259
00:11:26,834 --> 00:11:29,500
until police would learn
more about the suspect
260
00:11:29,667 --> 00:11:31,200
and his motivation.
261
00:11:31,367 --> 00:11:32,734
He was dressed
in dark clothing.
262
00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:36,734
He had a long three-quarter
length jacket, sunglasses.
263
00:11:36,900 --> 00:11:38,767
He certainly didn't
look 17 years old.
264
00:11:38,934 --> 00:11:40,900
He looked older than that.
265
00:11:41,066 --> 00:11:43,700
He was a stocky person.
266
00:11:43,867 --> 00:11:46,033
When he was arrested,
he was treated by paramedics,
267
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:47,633
and they cut off his jacket.
268
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,600
His jacket was
left at the scene,
269
00:11:49,767 --> 00:11:51,033
and he was transported.
270
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:52,934
As they processed the scene,
271
00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:54,166
they searched the jacket,
272
00:11:54,333 --> 00:11:56,233
and that's when
the note came to light.
273
00:11:57,233 --> 00:11:58,266
And what did the note say?
274
00:11:58,433 --> 00:11:59,934
"Long live
the Incel Rebellion."
275
00:12:00,166 --> 00:12:01,533
It was a handwritten note?
276
00:12:01,700 --> 00:12:04,200
It was a handwritten
note on a scrap piece of paper.
277
00:12:06,166 --> 00:12:07,667
It was in a plastic Ziploc bag
278
00:12:07,834 --> 00:12:10,233
along with his driver's license
and a whetstone.
279
00:12:11,166 --> 00:12:13,300
It's a stone that
you'd use to sharpen a blade.
280
00:12:13,467 --> 00:12:14,734
Presumably for the sword.
281
00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:15,800
Yes.
282
00:12:19,133 --> 00:12:20,867
Before arriving
at the crime scene,
283
00:12:21,033 --> 00:12:23,734
Detective Henri Marsman
had made a stop.
284
00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,000
I went to
the accused person's residence
285
00:12:28,166 --> 00:12:31,734
to inform their parents
that their son was in hospital,
286
00:12:31,900 --> 00:12:35,033
and I also seized the residence
for a search warrant.
287
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:36,567
The residence was, I would say,
288
00:12:36,734 --> 00:12:39,967
maybe a kilometre
and a bit from the spa.
289
00:12:40,133 --> 00:12:41,533
It was within walking distance.
290
00:12:42,433 --> 00:12:45,100
It is a difficult conversation
to have with someone, saying,
291
00:12:45,266 --> 00:12:47,266
you know,
"Your son's been stabbed
292
00:12:47,433 --> 00:12:49,433
and he's under arrest
for murder."
293
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:50,967
It shocked his father.
294
00:12:51,133 --> 00:12:53,734
And then to be told, you know,
you have to leave your house,
295
00:12:53,900 --> 00:12:55,367
gather your belongings,
296
00:12:55,533 --> 00:12:58,100
because now we're gonna
execute a search warrant on it.
297
00:12:59,033 --> 00:13:01,333
Investigators began to learn more
298
00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:03,166
about this young man.
299
00:13:03,333 --> 00:13:05,300
I knew that
he wasn't attending school.
300
00:13:05,467 --> 00:13:06,633
He wasn't working.
301
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,100
He was living with
his father and his stepmother
302
00:13:09,266 --> 00:13:11,333
and step-siblings,
303
00:13:11,500 --> 00:13:14,100
and that he played video games.
304
00:13:14,266 --> 00:13:17,066
When we executed the search
warrant, we seized his laptop.
305
00:13:17,233 --> 00:13:18,433
From speaking with the parents,
306
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:19,967
I knew that
he didn't have a cell phone.
307
00:13:20,133 --> 00:13:23,367
He only used
that one laptop in the house.
308
00:13:23,533 --> 00:13:26,700
I was looking for evidence
of pre-planning or motive.
309
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:28,934
We had this note in hand.
310
00:13:29,100 --> 00:13:30,967
Obviously, we had to wait until
he was treated in hospital
311
00:13:31,133 --> 00:13:33,300
and released to
a detention facility,
312
00:13:33,467 --> 00:13:34,700
which took a few weeks.
313
00:13:34,867 --> 00:13:37,867
I also wanted to get more
information from the computer
314
00:13:38,033 --> 00:13:40,567
so we'd have
some questions to ask him.
315
00:13:42,066 --> 00:13:46,567
The date today is Wednesday,
April 1st, in the year 2020.
316
00:13:46,734 --> 00:13:49,133
The time now is 11:33 a.m.
317
00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:50,533
I'm currently in
an interview room
318
00:13:50,700 --> 00:13:53,367
at the Roy McMurtry
Youth Detention Centre.
319
00:13:53,533 --> 00:13:56,266
Also in the room with me
at this time are my partner,
320
00:13:56,433 --> 00:13:58,533
Detective Henri Marsman,
321
00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:00,633
and we are speaking to a youth
322
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:02,467
who's an inmate
at this facility.
323
00:14:02,633 --> 00:14:04,900
Sir, could you state
and spell your name, please?
324
00:14:05,066 --> 00:14:07,200
My name is Oguzhan Sert.
325
00:14:07,367 --> 00:14:08,600
It's spelled...
326
00:14:08,767 --> 00:14:09,900
The suspect was underage
327
00:14:10,066 --> 00:14:11,367
at the time of his arrest,
328
00:14:11,533 --> 00:14:13,967
just months shy
of his 18th birthday,
329
00:14:14,133 --> 00:14:16,867
and his identity
under a publication ban.
330
00:14:17,033 --> 00:14:19,500
But for reasons that
will soon become apparent,
331
00:14:19,667 --> 00:14:21,567
we are now able
to identify him.
332
00:14:21,734 --> 00:14:24,133
Oguzhan, you understand
we're police officers?
333
00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:25,266
- Yes.
- Okay.
334
00:14:25,433 --> 00:14:26,900
Would it be okay
if I called you Oguzhan
335
00:14:27,066 --> 00:14:28,100
during the course
of this interview?
336
00:14:28,266 --> 00:14:29,133
- Yes.
- Okay.
337
00:14:29,300 --> 00:14:30,734
You look a lot older than 17.
338
00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:32,533
That's the first thing
that strikes me.
339
00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:34,633
Under the Youth
Criminal Justice Act,
340
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,233
a young person
is under no obligation
341
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:38,667
to make a statement.
342
00:14:38,834 --> 00:14:40,100
Do you want to
give a statement?
343
00:14:40,266 --> 00:14:41,667
No.
344
00:14:41,834 --> 00:14:44,033
And then he's asked
about his injuries.
345
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:49,500
I don't think I will
be able to hold stuff properly
346
00:14:49,667 --> 00:14:54,834
or make a fist with
my left hand ever again.
347
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,066
And from what I understand,
348
00:14:56,233 --> 00:14:57,433
your other injuries
are kind of around...
349
00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:58,734
And then he goes on
350
00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:00,400
and tells us about
the whole incident.
351
00:15:00,567 --> 00:15:02,834
The one girl who was killed
and the other one who was hurt,
352
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,667
had you ever met them
before that day?
353
00:15:04,834 --> 00:15:06,033
- No.
- So you had nothing
354
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,367
- against them personally?
- No.
355
00:15:08,533 --> 00:15:11,333
He didn't really say
why that specific location.
356
00:15:11,500 --> 00:15:13,433
It's within walking distance
to his house.
357
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,333
His father was a painter,
and he would go and work
358
00:15:16,500 --> 00:15:18,367
with his father
and pick up supplies.
359
00:15:18,533 --> 00:15:20,066
There's a Benjamin Moore
paint store
360
00:15:20,233 --> 00:15:23,033
right in the same plaza
as the Crown Spa.
361
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:24,734
If he would have gone
to pick up supplies,
362
00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:26,734
he would've seen
the geographic location
363
00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:28,100
of where the spa is.
364
00:15:28,266 --> 00:15:29,400
Did you know
what you were gonna do
365
00:15:29,567 --> 00:15:30,667
when you left the house?
366
00:15:30,834 --> 00:15:33,533
I was planning--
367
00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:36,200
- I don't know.
- Okay.
368
00:15:36,367 --> 00:15:39,967
The first sort of
instance of video surveillance
369
00:15:40,133 --> 00:15:45,000
that has him walking like an
average pedestrian on Dufferin,
370
00:15:45,166 --> 00:15:46,734
heading towards the Yorkdale
371
00:15:46,900 --> 00:15:49,633
to find the parlour
where this occurred.
372
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,867
There's no audio
to accompany the video,
373
00:15:52,033 --> 00:15:53,767
and if you watch all
of the surveillance,
374
00:15:53,934 --> 00:15:55,233
it's quite chilling.
375
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,367
It's got obviously
a horrific climax.
376
00:15:58,533 --> 00:15:59,934
But as you see
the start of the day,
377
00:16:00,166 --> 00:16:02,600
you see somebody
dressed in a trench coat,
378
00:16:02,767 --> 00:16:05,200
looking like they're trying
to be out of The Matrix,
379
00:16:05,367 --> 00:16:07,133
walking passively.
380
00:16:07,300 --> 00:16:09,934
But when you know what happens
when you're watching it,
381
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:11,300
it's disturbing.
382
00:16:11,467 --> 00:16:13,300
It's disturbing
to see what he's doing
383
00:16:13,467 --> 00:16:16,700
and where he's going,
and what kind of mindset
384
00:16:16,867 --> 00:16:18,934
would he have at the time
as he's walking
385
00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:24,300
with the goal of taking as many
lives as he can come across.
386
00:16:24,467 --> 00:16:26,500
It's one of the starkest
and most difficult
387
00:16:26,667 --> 00:16:28,800
pieces of evidence
I've ever had to witness,
388
00:16:28,967 --> 00:16:30,200
and I've seen a lot.
389
00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:33,967
It's not like CSI
and it's not like TV,
390
00:16:34,133 --> 00:16:37,600
and it's
a chilling demonstration
391
00:16:37,767 --> 00:16:41,667
of just how far afield
his mental state was
392
00:16:41,834 --> 00:16:43,433
compared to the average person.
393
00:16:56,767 --> 00:16:58,233
Welcome back to Crime Beat.
394
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,266
A teenager has been arrested
395
00:17:00,433 --> 00:17:03,700
for the murder of 24-year-old
Ashley Noell Arzaga
396
00:17:03,867 --> 00:17:06,300
and the attempted murder
of a second woman.
397
00:17:06,467 --> 00:17:10,233
His motive was deeply rooted
in the incel movement,
398
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,800
known for its extreme
misogynistic ideology.
399
00:17:13,967 --> 00:17:16,066
But in the eyes of the law,
400
00:17:16,233 --> 00:17:18,967
can this be labelled
as terrorism?
401
00:17:20,867 --> 00:17:25,133
Here now is Caryn Lieberman
with "The Incel Murder."
402
00:17:28,667 --> 00:17:31,000
Any significance
to the weapon you used?
403
00:17:31,166 --> 00:17:33,433
'Cause that's a pretty
unusual weapon, a sword.
404
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,000
Yes, the sword.
405
00:17:35,166 --> 00:17:37,033
The sword...
406
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:38,133
I just...
407
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:40,800
I don't know. That's--
408
00:17:40,967 --> 00:17:44,066
that was just the weapon
available, because
409
00:17:44,233 --> 00:17:46,233
- I ordered it on Amazon.
- Okay.
410
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:47,834
He had purchased a sword.
411
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,367
He'd had it engraved,
412
00:17:49,533 --> 00:17:51,533
which spoke to
the degree of planning.
413
00:17:51,700 --> 00:17:54,533
The sword
was 17 inches long.
414
00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:56,867
Did you order it
for this purpose?
415
00:17:57,033 --> 00:17:59,867
I originally bought it because
I thought it looked cool.
416
00:18:01,033 --> 00:18:03,467
- And then I used it for this.
- Okay.
417
00:18:03,633 --> 00:18:05,767
Do you remember what
you inscribed on the blade?
418
00:18:05,934 --> 00:18:07,800
- Yes.
- What did you inscribe?
419
00:18:07,967 --> 00:18:11,200
It was inscribed "thot slayer."
420
00:18:11,367 --> 00:18:14,400
"Thot slayer."
Okay, and what does that mean?
421
00:18:14,567 --> 00:18:17,000
A thot is like--
422
00:18:17,166 --> 00:18:20,100
it's like another word
for a girl.
423
00:18:20,266 --> 00:18:22,333
It isn't-- it isn't super bad,
424
00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:24,166
but it's not
super nice as well.
425
00:18:24,333 --> 00:18:26,633
It's kind of like
another way of saying...
426
00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:30,767
the word "slut"
or something like that.
427
00:18:30,934 --> 00:18:34,433
"Thot slayer,"
which in incel terminology
428
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,166
could mean
"that hoe over there."
429
00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:40,066
I've been-- I've been spending
a lot of time on the Internet.
430
00:18:40,233 --> 00:18:44,467
- Mm-hmm.
- I did look into the alt-right.
431
00:18:44,633 --> 00:18:45,767
Have you heard of that?
432
00:18:45,934 --> 00:18:48,633
I have, and I have an idea
of what that means.
433
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,433
To me, that's kind of
a political group.
434
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,500
- Yes.
- What does it mean to you?
435
00:18:52,667 --> 00:18:54,300
- It's a political group.
- Okay.
436
00:18:54,467 --> 00:18:56,266
It's a right-wing.
437
00:18:57,867 --> 00:19:00,834
There was also searches
on his computer for that spa,
438
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,100
and he searched a site
called "Men Go Their Own Way,"
439
00:19:04,266 --> 00:19:07,300
which is an incel site.
440
00:19:07,467 --> 00:19:10,767
Would he chat back and forth
with these members of incel?
441
00:19:10,934 --> 00:19:12,500
It was hard to track his chats.
442
00:19:12,667 --> 00:19:14,667
A lot of what was found
on the computer had said
443
00:19:14,834 --> 00:19:17,767
he used incognito mode, and
he had, like, ciphers on there
444
00:19:17,934 --> 00:19:20,033
that would regularly
delete his search history
445
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:21,166
or his chat history.
446
00:19:21,333 --> 00:19:23,033
He also played
a lot of online games.
447
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,100
He used Discord, and
any chats that would've been
448
00:19:26,266 --> 00:19:28,367
captured on there,
we couldn't obtain.
449
00:19:28,533 --> 00:19:30,166
- But you got a lot.
- We got a lot.
450
00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:33,500
Including his account on Steam,
451
00:19:33,667 --> 00:19:35,667
an online gaming platform.
452
00:19:35,834 --> 00:19:37,200
His profile picture:
453
00:19:37,367 --> 00:19:39,834
a medieval warrior
of Middle Eastern descent
454
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,533
riding a black horse
and carrying a sword.
455
00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:45,333
And the caption beneath it...
456
00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:47,133
"Proud incel. Truth seeker.
457
00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:50,000
Jihadi and currently
on FBI watch list.
458
00:19:50,166 --> 00:19:51,900
Seeker of martyrdom.
459
00:19:52,066 --> 00:19:54,500
Hates feminists,
atheists, satanists,
460
00:19:54,667 --> 00:19:56,667
and all kinds
of other degenerates.
461
00:19:57,367 --> 00:20:00,867
Death to the synagogue of Satan
who truly rules this world."
462
00:20:01,033 --> 00:20:03,700
And do you follow
a particular faith?
463
00:20:03,867 --> 00:20:07,033
Well, in my head, I'm Muslim.
464
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,033
Mm-hmm.
465
00:20:08,834 --> 00:20:11,133
But do I pray every day,
466
00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:13,467
do I do those kind of things, no.
467
00:20:13,633 --> 00:20:16,600
He also searched
the Hamas Al-Qassam Brigade,
468
00:20:16,767 --> 00:20:19,367
the military wing of the
Palestinian Hamas organization.
469
00:20:19,533 --> 00:20:22,867
There were some
other searches that
470
00:20:23,033 --> 00:20:25,934
conceivably could be
viewed as antisemitic
471
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:29,667
or glorification
of the Nazi movement.
472
00:20:29,834 --> 00:20:32,033
The incel group.
473
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,767
Is that a group you've been
associated with for a while?
474
00:20:34,934 --> 00:20:38,333
The incel,
the thing is, anyone can--
475
00:20:39,867 --> 00:20:41,633
You don't choose
to become incel.
476
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:43,667
You just are born one.
477
00:20:43,834 --> 00:20:45,767
He was committed
to this movement.
478
00:20:45,934 --> 00:20:47,567
Absolutely.
With the incel movement,
479
00:20:47,734 --> 00:20:52,033
there was extensive involvement
in websites that described it,
480
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,734
chat groups that
had his participation,
481
00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:57,900
claims that he was
going to engage in
482
00:20:58,066 --> 00:20:59,467
this type of activity.
483
00:21:00,567 --> 00:21:03,500
To police, he told
a slightly different story
484
00:21:03,667 --> 00:21:05,033
in terms of his involvement.
485
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,133
I haven't really been talking
too much with this community.
486
00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:10,867
I-- I do not--
487
00:21:11,033 --> 00:21:12,567
I don't have many friends.
488
00:21:12,734 --> 00:21:15,166
Even on the Internet,
I do not have friends.
489
00:21:15,333 --> 00:21:17,967
So I do not
talk to them very much.
490
00:21:18,133 --> 00:21:19,700
Why don't you think
you have any friends?
491
00:21:21,266 --> 00:21:22,967
I excommunicated them.
492
00:21:23,133 --> 00:21:25,000
Oguzhan Sert
told investigators
493
00:21:25,166 --> 00:21:27,266
if you don't have friends,
quote,
494
00:21:27,433 --> 00:21:29,934
"it's impossible
for people to betray you,"
495
00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:31,400
but that it is lonely,
496
00:21:31,567 --> 00:21:33,633
and that he's the type
of person who could
497
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,533
sit at the computer all day.
498
00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:37,433
The incel group
is not religion.
499
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:38,934
What would you define them as?
500
00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:42,100
It's more-- it's more
of a social outcast.
501
00:21:43,133 --> 00:21:44,433
Is that how you see yourself?
502
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:45,600
Yes.
503
00:21:45,767 --> 00:21:47,133
What was he like
in the interview?
504
00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:48,433
He seemed
pretty straightforward.
505
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:49,767
I mean,
he answered the questions.
506
00:21:49,934 --> 00:21:51,567
He understood exactly
what we were asking.
507
00:21:51,734 --> 00:21:53,767
He shied away from things
he didn't wanna tell us,
508
00:21:53,934 --> 00:21:56,700
but otherwise,
he, uh, seemed pretty open.
509
00:21:56,867 --> 00:21:58,900
- And calm.
- And calm.
510
00:21:59,066 --> 00:22:00,900
Even when he acknowledged
511
00:22:01,066 --> 00:22:03,700
he did not expect
to survive the attack.
512
00:22:04,533 --> 00:22:06,633
When I was
lying down on the floor,
513
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,133
a police officer was
pointing a pistol at me,
514
00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:12,266
and I told him, "Officer,
515
00:22:12,433 --> 00:22:13,567
just shoot me."
516
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,200
He was arrested
and charged initially by us
517
00:22:16,367 --> 00:22:18,934
for first-degree murder
and attempted murder.
518
00:22:19,100 --> 00:22:21,000
He said he thought he was
gonna be killed by police.
519
00:22:21,166 --> 00:22:23,500
It kind of circles back to
the fact that he had his note
520
00:22:23,667 --> 00:22:26,467
and his ID and the whetstone
in a Ziploc bag.
521
00:22:26,633 --> 00:22:28,033
He wanted someone to find it.
522
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,934
He was there
to make a statement.
523
00:22:30,934 --> 00:22:32,600
If you are found guilty,
524
00:22:32,767 --> 00:22:34,834
you could receive
an adult sentence.
525
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,967
The most severe adult sentence
is life in prison.
526
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:39,934
Do you understand that?
527
00:22:40,100 --> 00:22:41,667
- Yes.
- Okay.
528
00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:45,100
It would be soon after
this police interview
529
00:22:45,266 --> 00:22:48,233
that longtime criminal
defence lawyer Monte MacGregor
530
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,133
was hired to represent
Oguzhan Sert.
531
00:22:51,300 --> 00:22:53,467
Initially,
what happens is you look at
532
00:22:53,633 --> 00:22:54,667
the information from the police
533
00:22:54,834 --> 00:22:57,166
to try and assess
the strength of the case.
534
00:22:57,333 --> 00:22:59,900
Very early on,
it was clear that it was
535
00:23:00,133 --> 00:23:03,000
a relatively overwhelming
first-degree murder case.
536
00:23:03,166 --> 00:23:05,433
Also potentially
as a terrorism case.
537
00:23:06,233 --> 00:23:08,533
In Canada, Section 83.01
538
00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:10,667
of the Criminal Code
defines terrorism as
539
00:23:10,834 --> 00:23:14,000
"an act committed in whole
or in part for a political,
540
00:23:14,166 --> 00:23:17,834
religious, and ideological
purpose, objective, or cause
541
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,433
with the intention
of intimidating the public."
542
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,000
For the first time in Canada,
terrorism charges
543
00:23:23,166 --> 00:23:25,467
have been laid against someone
who allegedly carried out
544
00:23:25,633 --> 00:23:29,200
an attack motivated by
a misogynist ideology.
545
00:23:30,333 --> 00:23:32,567
Terrorism charges in Canada
have traditionally been
546
00:23:32,734 --> 00:23:34,900
reserved for
Islamist extremists,
547
00:23:35,066 --> 00:23:36,700
inspired by groups
such as Al-Qaeda
548
00:23:36,867 --> 00:23:38,667
and the so-called
Islamic State.
549
00:23:38,834 --> 00:23:42,600
The Canadian government is
taking right-wing extremism,
550
00:23:42,767 --> 00:23:45,367
but particularly
misogynistic violence,
551
00:23:45,533 --> 00:23:47,367
very, very seriously
and elevating it
552
00:23:47,533 --> 00:23:48,600
to the level of terrorism.
553
00:23:48,767 --> 00:23:50,967
This charge is really huge news
554
00:23:51,133 --> 00:23:52,800
for Canada and internationally.
555
00:23:54,266 --> 00:23:55,967
Why did this case
fit the criteria?
556
00:23:56,133 --> 00:23:58,934
At the time, we believed
that incel was an ideology,
557
00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:01,533
that this act of violence
was committed
558
00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:05,100
for an ideological purpose
intended to intimidate
559
00:24:05,266 --> 00:24:07,667
a segment of society,
that being women,
560
00:24:07,834 --> 00:24:11,633
and that it was used
violence to obtain that means.
561
00:24:13,667 --> 00:24:16,300
I'm an operations officer
at INSET, which is
562
00:24:16,467 --> 00:24:18,767
the Integrated National
Security Enforcement Team.
563
00:24:18,934 --> 00:24:21,467
It's an RCMP-led
joint force operation,
564
00:24:21,633 --> 00:24:24,000
and our job is
to investigate terrorism
565
00:24:24,166 --> 00:24:28,100
and any threats to
Canada's national security.
566
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,934
Toronto Police is part of our
joint force operation at INSET.
567
00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:36,700
When they had evidence that
there was potential connection
568
00:24:36,867 --> 00:24:38,133
to the incel movement
569
00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:40,233
and that there was
potential terrorism offences,
570
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:41,633
we became involved.
571
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,367
Why those girls?
572
00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:49,367
I just thought they--
they weren't very clean people.
573
00:24:49,533 --> 00:24:50,700
He picked that spa because
574
00:24:50,867 --> 00:24:52,100
he believed they were unclean.
575
00:24:52,266 --> 00:24:55,667
He said that he went to the spa
to kill these women.
576
00:24:55,834 --> 00:24:58,500
He made some utterances to
one of the uniformed officers
577
00:24:58,667 --> 00:25:01,200
that was guarding him
that he came to kill,
578
00:25:01,367 --> 00:25:03,066
and that he wished
he would've gotten more.
579
00:25:03,233 --> 00:25:04,500
- More women.
- More women.
580
00:25:12,934 --> 00:25:14,066
a couple of o
581
00:25:14,233 --> 00:25:15,734
when there was
a van attack in Toronto?
582
00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:18,600
Yes. He was an inspiration.
583
00:25:18,767 --> 00:25:20,867
So I thought if
he could do that,
584
00:25:21,033 --> 00:25:24,633
especially so close,
in Canada, in Toronto, a city,
585
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,166
I thought it was
possible for me
586
00:25:26,333 --> 00:25:27,767
to do something
like that as well.
587
00:25:30,233 --> 00:25:31,500
Chaos and destruction
588
00:25:31,667 --> 00:25:33,066
on the streets
of North Toronto.
589
00:25:33,233 --> 00:25:36,667
A van plows into a crowd
of pedestrians on sidewalks
590
00:25:36,834 --> 00:25:38,166
near Yonge and Finch.
591
00:25:38,333 --> 00:25:42,900
1:30 p.m., a white Ryder
rental van mounts a sidewalk,
592
00:25:43,066 --> 00:25:45,767
gaining speed,
striking pedestrians
593
00:25:45,934 --> 00:25:47,467
as it barrels southbound.
594
00:25:47,633 --> 00:25:50,166
Everyone is shocked! I stood
for a second right here,
595
00:25:50,333 --> 00:25:52,467
just wondering
what the [bleep] is going on.
596
00:25:52,633 --> 00:25:54,767
And he just went
down to the next block
597
00:25:54,934 --> 00:25:56,433
and then smashed into one lady.
598
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,033
She went flying in the air.
599
00:25:58,200 --> 00:25:59,200
Oh, my God.
600
00:25:59,367 --> 00:26:01,000
It was a warm, sunny
spring afternoon
601
00:26:01,166 --> 00:26:03,767
when Alek Minassian
arrived on Yonge Street,
602
00:26:03,934 --> 00:26:07,000
an area he says he knew
would be packed with people,
603
00:26:07,166 --> 00:26:08,233
and it was.
604
00:26:09,533 --> 00:26:12,233
Alek Minassian drove
a rental van through a crowd
605
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,533
on one of Toronto's
busiest streets in April 2018,
606
00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:20,300
killing ten pedestrians,
the majority of them women,
607
00:26:20,467 --> 00:26:21,967
and injuring 16.
608
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,333
It was the deadliest
act of mass murder
609
00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:27,967
in the city's history.
610
00:26:28,133 --> 00:26:30,900
And Minassian said
he was inspired by
611
00:26:31,066 --> 00:26:33,300
the misogynistic
incel movement,
612
00:26:33,467 --> 00:26:36,300
short for
"involuntary celibates."
613
00:26:36,467 --> 00:26:38,233
In terms of your feelings
614
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:39,700
towards women in general,
615
00:26:39,867 --> 00:26:41,000
how would you describe that?
616
00:26:41,166 --> 00:26:43,734
I would say that
sometimes I am a bit upset
617
00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:46,100
that they choose to, uh,
618
00:26:46,266 --> 00:26:48,934
date obnoxious men
619
00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:51,367
instead of, uh, gentlemen.
620
00:26:51,533 --> 00:26:53,400
What did you know about incel?
621
00:26:53,567 --> 00:26:55,300
Having been in the office
during the time
622
00:26:55,467 --> 00:26:57,433
of the Alek Minassian
van attack,
623
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,000
I was aware
of the incel movement.
624
00:26:59,166 --> 00:27:00,700
We had been provided
some training
625
00:27:00,867 --> 00:27:03,033
and some background on incels,
626
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,467
and I knew that
this note indicated
627
00:27:05,633 --> 00:27:07,233
that there was my motive.
628
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,166
Did you want
the police to find that?
629
00:27:09,333 --> 00:27:11,000
I wanted everyone to find it.
630
00:27:11,166 --> 00:27:14,166
I wanted them to know that
that's what I--
631
00:27:15,500 --> 00:27:16,800
That's-- that's...
632
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,834
You say "I wanted them to know.
Who's "them"?
633
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,333
The world.
634
00:27:25,166 --> 00:27:29,266
Both Minassian and Sert
referenced the incel rebellion.
635
00:27:29,433 --> 00:27:31,133
That's the time
at which finally these men
636
00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:33,500
will take control again
and take their rightful place
637
00:27:33,667 --> 00:27:35,934
as part of
the alpha male collective.
638
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,900
Clearly they're manly men
because they had the courage
639
00:27:41,066 --> 00:27:43,166
and the bravery
to strike out and strike back
640
00:27:43,333 --> 00:27:45,500
against the system,
but also a warning to women
641
00:27:45,667 --> 00:27:47,433
that, "You need
to take me seriously,
642
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,667
and don't just shun me, because
these are the consequences."
643
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,033
Criminologist Barbara
Perry is the founding director
644
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,867
of the Centre on
Hate, Bias and Extremism
645
00:27:57,033 --> 00:27:59,500
at Ontario Tech University.
646
00:27:59,667 --> 00:28:01,867
She's been tracking
the incel movement,
647
00:28:02,033 --> 00:28:04,133
which started in Canada.
648
00:28:04,300 --> 00:28:05,567
It began in the '90s, actually,
649
00:28:05,734 --> 00:28:08,100
and it was started by
a young woman who was
650
00:28:08,266 --> 00:28:11,233
having difficulty
getting into relationships.
651
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:12,934
What we may think of
as a lonely hearts club.
652
00:28:13,100 --> 00:28:14,567
There was nothing
nefarious about it.
653
00:28:14,734 --> 00:28:17,300
It was just sharing
experiences, talking about,
654
00:28:17,467 --> 00:28:19,066
"Well, you know,
how do we get a guy?"
655
00:28:19,233 --> 00:28:21,600
Or a girl,
because it was men and women.
656
00:28:21,767 --> 00:28:24,266
She eventually, you know,
started to have some success
657
00:28:24,433 --> 00:28:27,300
with dating and so
moved away from the movement,
658
00:28:27,467 --> 00:28:30,567
but many of the followers
that remained were young men,
659
00:28:30,734 --> 00:28:33,633
and it just
really devolved into
660
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,066
a much more angry,
misogynistic movement.
661
00:28:37,233 --> 00:28:38,967
Elliot Rodger.
662
00:28:39,133 --> 00:28:42,633
In 2014, the 22-year-old
went on a killing spree
663
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,233
in California,
killing six people.
664
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,333
He ran down
a number of pedestrians
665
00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:49,000
before killing himself.
666
00:28:49,166 --> 00:28:52,433
He, I think, is generally
recognized as the first incel
667
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,500
to really act en masse in
very violent ways, obviously.
668
00:28:56,667 --> 00:28:59,767
He was responsible for
the murder of six individuals
669
00:28:59,934 --> 00:29:02,433
and injuries for a dozen more
670
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:07,000
when he perpetrated his attack
in Isla Vista, California.
671
00:29:07,166 --> 00:29:10,467
In a YouTube video
posted before the rampage,
672
00:29:10,633 --> 00:29:12,700
Elliot explained
his motivation.
673
00:29:12,867 --> 00:29:15,667
He wanted to punish women
for rejecting him,
674
00:29:15,834 --> 00:29:17,934
and that he envied
sexually active men
675
00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:21,600
and wanted to punish them
for being sexually active.
676
00:29:21,767 --> 00:29:24,433
Have you ever
heard of, uh, Elliot Rodger?
677
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:25,767
Yes.
678
00:29:25,934 --> 00:29:29,033
He was a nice person.
He was nice to girls.
679
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,633
He was being a gentleman
towards them.
680
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,133
But they rejected him
either way.
681
00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:37,600
And so that is why
he got mad and...
682
00:29:37,767 --> 00:29:39,967
he-- he went to--
he did what he did.
683
00:29:40,133 --> 00:29:43,333
Do you feel
any kinship towards him?
684
00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:45,200
A little bit, yes.
685
00:29:45,367 --> 00:29:47,967
And so
he really became a martyr,
686
00:29:48,133 --> 00:29:51,233
and he'd left a manifesto
that claimed that the reason
687
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,600
that he did
what he was going to do
688
00:29:53,767 --> 00:29:55,767
was that he hated women--
689
00:29:55,934 --> 00:29:58,934
literally hated,
detested women--
690
00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:01,400
was resentful, again,
because he couldn't
691
00:30:01,567 --> 00:30:02,700
convince them
to have sex with him.
692
00:30:02,867 --> 00:30:06,000
Have you ever had
any relationship with a female?
693
00:30:06,166 --> 00:30:08,166
Not necessarily as
a girlfriend-boyfriend,
694
00:30:08,333 --> 00:30:10,767
but just as a friend, somebody
you could hang out with?
695
00:30:10,934 --> 00:30:12,133
No.
696
00:30:12,300 --> 00:30:15,300
Typically, you know,
lonely, disenfranchised,
697
00:30:15,467 --> 00:30:17,033
feeling they've been
left behind.
698
00:30:17,934 --> 00:30:20,300
Often isolate themselves
in their homes
699
00:30:20,467 --> 00:30:21,667
or in their parents' homes,
700
00:30:21,834 --> 00:30:24,266
uh, spending
a lot of time online.
701
00:30:25,333 --> 00:30:27,200
Unlike most peers his age,
702
00:30:27,367 --> 00:30:29,467
Oguzhan Sert wasn't in school.
703
00:30:29,633 --> 00:30:31,200
He never attended high school.
704
00:30:31,367 --> 00:30:34,133
I was scared that
the work would be too hard,
705
00:30:34,300 --> 00:30:38,567
and I was gonna get bullied
by the other kids.
706
00:30:38,734 --> 00:30:40,300
Had you been bullied before?
707
00:30:40,467 --> 00:30:42,433
I wasn't really bullied,
708
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,233
but on some occasions,
I was disrespected.
709
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,333
Could you just generally say
was it based on appearance,
710
00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:50,500
or religion, or intellect--
711
00:30:50,667 --> 00:30:52,633
I guess it was appearance, yeah.
712
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,867
This was somewhat
of the perfect storm
713
00:30:56,033 --> 00:30:57,967
of an individual.
714
00:30:58,133 --> 00:31:01,400
He was living a life in the
basement of his father's house,
715
00:31:01,567 --> 00:31:05,066
relying on the Internet and
all of the darkness and evils
716
00:31:05,233 --> 00:31:08,900
that can come from the corners
of it that are scary,
717
00:31:09,066 --> 00:31:12,266
and it allowed him
to develop opinions
718
00:31:12,433 --> 00:31:15,000
and beliefs that led to this.
719
00:31:15,166 --> 00:31:20,200
And he had ended the
relationship with his mother.
720
00:31:20,367 --> 00:31:23,567
At what point does it move from
721
00:31:23,734 --> 00:31:25,266
being in your basement
on your computer
722
00:31:25,433 --> 00:31:27,867
and interacting with
these people anonymously
723
00:31:28,033 --> 00:31:31,000
to wanting to act
on that behaviour?
724
00:31:31,166 --> 00:31:34,834
There are people in there
who are provocateurs,
725
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,500
intentionally attempting
to deepen the sentiment
726
00:31:38,667 --> 00:31:41,734
and exacerbate
the anxiety and the fear
727
00:31:41,900 --> 00:31:43,100
and the hatred
and the hostility.
728
00:31:43,266 --> 00:31:44,800
And I think
the angrier you get,
729
00:31:44,967 --> 00:31:48,266
the more extreme narratives
you're looking for as well.
730
00:31:48,433 --> 00:31:51,600
So this will make its way
through the courts.
731
00:31:51,767 --> 00:31:54,233
It was an unanswerable,
undefendable case.
732
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:55,567
We'll try to do what's best...
733
00:31:55,734 --> 00:31:57,867
He did have some
mental health deficiencies.
734
00:31:58,033 --> 00:31:59,333
He was on the autism spectrum.
735
00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:01,567
He had, I believe,
anxiety disorder
736
00:32:01,734 --> 00:32:04,133
and other issues
that impacted his ability
737
00:32:04,300 --> 00:32:05,667
to rationalize and reason.
738
00:32:05,834 --> 00:32:08,633
So from there,
the only real available defence
739
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,533
in cases of that nature
is whether or not
740
00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:12,300
somebody's not
criminally responsible.
741
00:32:12,467 --> 00:32:14,266
But it didn't
rise to the level.
742
00:32:14,433 --> 00:32:16,300
It's not easy. I don't know.
743
00:32:16,467 --> 00:32:19,233
Oguzhan Sert pleaded
guilty to first-degree murder
744
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,934
and attempted murder
in the fall of 2022.
745
00:32:23,100 --> 00:32:26,266
The Crown would then
argue its case for terrorism.
746
00:32:26,433 --> 00:32:30,066
On Tuesday, federal prosecutor
Lisa Mathews told the court
747
00:32:30,233 --> 00:32:32,633
his incel ideology
was meant to send a message
748
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,200
to the public
that women are not safe.
749
00:32:44,433 --> 00:32:47,233
I think the terrorism
charge is significant,
750
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,600
because at this time in
Canadian jurisprudence,
751
00:32:50,767 --> 00:32:54,300
there is not a big body
of cases to rely on
752
00:32:54,467 --> 00:32:58,200
to define and determine
how terrorism applies.
753
00:32:58,367 --> 00:33:00,667
So, effectively,
it's a route of liability.
754
00:33:00,834 --> 00:33:03,300
Now, how did that
affect his defence?
755
00:33:03,467 --> 00:33:06,567
We did try to counter
the terrorism notion.
756
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,066
Defence lawyer
Maurice Mattis argued
757
00:33:09,233 --> 00:33:11,200
the attack did not
constitute terrorism,
758
00:33:11,367 --> 00:33:12,667
pointing out
that Alek Minassian,
759
00:33:12,834 --> 00:33:14,667
the van attack killer
who also professed
760
00:33:14,834 --> 00:33:15,834
a connection to the incels,
761
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,200
was never charged
with terrorism.
762
00:33:32,934 --> 00:33:35,800
The defence told the judge
calling this attack terrorism
763
00:33:35,967 --> 00:33:37,333
will open a floodgate,
764
00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:39,467
the definition too large.
765
00:33:39,633 --> 00:33:42,533
We tried to defend that
to try and minimize
766
00:33:42,700 --> 00:33:45,133
any sentencing impact
in the long run.
767
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,166
Welcome back.
768
00:33:56,333 --> 00:33:58,800
17-year-old Oguzhan Sert
was charged with
769
00:33:58,967 --> 00:34:01,633
first-degree murder
and attempted murder.
770
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,166
In a precedent-setting move,
771
00:34:03,333 --> 00:34:06,433
those charges were upgraded
to include terrorism
772
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,800
after investigators
learned more about his links
773
00:34:08,967 --> 00:34:11,400
to the misogynistic
incel movement.
774
00:34:11,567 --> 00:34:13,567
But will that be enough
to stop others
775
00:34:13,734 --> 00:34:16,367
from committing
similar acts of violence?
776
00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:19,934
Here now is Caryn Lieberman
777
00:34:20,100 --> 00:34:22,667
with the conclusion
of "The Incel Murder."
778
00:34:28,066 --> 00:34:30,934
The judge ruled
Oguzhan Sert was guilty
779
00:34:31,100 --> 00:34:32,700
on the upgraded charges,
780
00:34:32,867 --> 00:34:35,000
finding the attack
on Crown Spa
781
00:34:35,166 --> 00:34:39,000
was terrorist activity
intended to intimidate women,
782
00:34:39,166 --> 00:34:41,734
setting a precedent
in Canadian law.
783
00:34:41,900 --> 00:34:44,900
It was the first time
anything other than
784
00:34:45,066 --> 00:34:48,967
Islamist-inspired extremism
really had been recognized
785
00:34:49,133 --> 00:34:51,066
as terrorism in
the Canadian context.
786
00:34:51,233 --> 00:34:53,567
When the emergency
medical services arrived,
787
00:34:53,734 --> 00:34:56,166
they indicated that
he proudly said, you know,
788
00:34:56,333 --> 00:34:57,500
"Well, at least I got one."
789
00:34:57,667 --> 00:34:59,967
So even at that time frame,
790
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,133
it was a cold,
harsh indignation
791
00:35:04,300 --> 00:35:08,800
towards his targets
and a purposeful attack
792
00:35:08,967 --> 00:35:12,133
that is clearly
a terrorist act.
793
00:35:17,166 --> 00:35:19,800
I think I went
there on a similar day
794
00:35:19,967 --> 00:35:21,767
as the day this crime
would have occurred.
795
00:35:21,934 --> 00:35:23,266
So it was like
the middle of the week,
796
00:35:23,433 --> 00:35:24,600
the middle of the day.
797
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,767
It just feels
very quiet and secluded
798
00:35:29,934 --> 00:35:32,433
and not at all like
a place where you would expect
799
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,000
this magnitude
of violence to happen.
800
00:35:35,166 --> 00:35:37,500
But, I mean,
this is also the reality of
801
00:35:37,667 --> 00:35:40,667
where these massage parlours
tend to be located.
802
00:35:43,667 --> 00:35:45,734
Lana Hall is
a journalist who wrote about
803
00:35:45,900 --> 00:35:48,600
the Crown Spa attack
for Maclean's magazine.
804
00:35:49,767 --> 00:35:52,500
I have been a journalist
for about a decade now,
805
00:35:52,667 --> 00:35:55,266
but prior to that,
I also spent some time
806
00:35:55,433 --> 00:35:58,266
working in Toronto's
massage parlour industry.
807
00:35:58,433 --> 00:36:00,500
And, in fact,
I worked for a period of time
808
00:36:00,667 --> 00:36:02,734
at a massage parlour
that's kind of just
809
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:05,400
across the highway
from Crown Spa.
810
00:36:07,934 --> 00:36:11,533
As soon as the news broke
about the prosecution approach
811
00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:14,934
that the Crown and the RCMP
and the police wanted to take,
812
00:36:15,100 --> 00:36:16,867
that they wanted
to try and prosecute this
813
00:36:17,033 --> 00:36:18,900
as an act of terror
in addition to
814
00:36:19,066 --> 00:36:20,900
being a murder
and an attempted murder,
815
00:36:21,066 --> 00:36:23,500
and I really wanted
people to understand
816
00:36:23,667 --> 00:36:25,967
the implications of that,
like, the implications of
817
00:36:26,133 --> 00:36:29,300
what that might mean for how we
think of gender-based violence.
818
00:36:29,467 --> 00:36:32,300
Because we do still have
this attitude, you know,
819
00:36:32,467 --> 00:36:35,700
sometimes where when
we see violence take place
820
00:36:35,867 --> 00:36:38,367
in these workplaces that
sort of operate on the margins,
821
00:36:38,533 --> 00:36:40,367
like massage parlours
and strip clubs,
822
00:36:40,533 --> 00:36:42,066
that there is
still this idea that
823
00:36:42,233 --> 00:36:46,767
that level of violence is
expected in these places.
824
00:36:46,934 --> 00:36:49,333
On its website,
the Crown Spa is described as
825
00:36:49,500 --> 00:36:51,900
a licensed massage parlour
for erotic massage
826
00:36:52,066 --> 00:36:53,333
and exotic massage,
827
00:36:53,500 --> 00:36:56,333
female-operated
and under new management.
828
00:36:56,500 --> 00:36:58,233
We spoke with one woman
who lives in the neighbourhood
829
00:36:58,400 --> 00:36:59,633
right behind the Crown Spa.
830
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,133
She said there's always
a lot of action in the area,
831
00:37:02,300 --> 00:37:04,066
and she wasn't surprised
to hear police
832
00:37:04,233 --> 00:37:06,266
were responding to
an incident there.
833
00:37:06,433 --> 00:37:08,033
Well, it used to
be called the Minx Spa,
834
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:09,700
but we know what it is.
835
00:37:09,867 --> 00:37:13,000
I know from experience
that because these are
836
00:37:13,166 --> 00:37:15,533
kind of loosely regulated
workplaces, you know,
837
00:37:15,700 --> 00:37:17,600
they're a bit of
a pressure cooker environment
838
00:37:17,767 --> 00:37:20,700
that sometimes they can feel a
little bit like the Wild West.
839
00:37:20,867 --> 00:37:22,200
And so there kind of are some
840
00:37:22,367 --> 00:37:24,000
safety implications
about that, right?
841
00:37:24,867 --> 00:37:27,233
I reached out to
the surviving witness,
842
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,000
who did not agree
to talk to me on camera--
843
00:37:29,166 --> 00:37:31,533
or in person, rather-- but
we had some talks on the phone.
844
00:37:32,333 --> 00:37:34,467
At the time,
Global News had also
845
00:37:34,633 --> 00:37:35,967
been in touch with JC,
846
00:37:36,133 --> 00:37:38,467
whose identity is
under a publication ban.
847
00:37:38,633 --> 00:37:41,633
It set a huge precedent
for these van attackers
848
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,734
or whoever
these terrorists [bleep]
849
00:37:43,900 --> 00:37:46,467
to be reprimanded and then
charged with terrorism.
850
00:37:46,633 --> 00:37:48,800
The 31-year-old victim
who survived says
851
00:37:48,967 --> 00:37:51,333
she's pleased to learn those
allegedly radicalised online
852
00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:54,333
by the incel movement can now
be charged with terrorism.
853
00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:57,266
I'm so confident in
the team that is working
854
00:37:57,433 --> 00:38:00,266
on my investigation,
on the investigation,
855
00:38:00,433 --> 00:38:03,333
and I know that they want
justice for Ashley and myself.
856
00:38:03,500 --> 00:38:06,800
She was an amazing--
an amazing mother.
857
00:38:06,967 --> 00:38:10,800
She was the brightest
character ever.
858
00:38:11,867 --> 00:38:14,166
What I learned
through talking to JC is that
859
00:38:14,333 --> 00:38:15,934
she was incredibly dedicated.
860
00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:18,200
Like, you know, it was
not at all unusual for her
861
00:38:18,367 --> 00:38:21,533
to work six or seven days
a week, to work long hours.
862
00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:23,600
She took that job
really seriously,
863
00:38:23,767 --> 00:38:25,200
and she cared
a lot about the people.
864
00:38:25,367 --> 00:38:28,967
I think she has a really
strong integrity in that sense.
865
00:38:29,133 --> 00:38:32,033
Also, just to reiterate,
like, JC is the reason
866
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,867
this crime potentially
wasn't far, far worse.
867
00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:39,133
She had, you know,
the capacity to think quickly
868
00:38:39,300 --> 00:38:41,133
in the middle of being attacked
869
00:38:41,300 --> 00:38:42,934
to disarm this guy.
870
00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:44,300
You know, who knows
what might have happened
871
00:38:44,467 --> 00:38:45,734
if that hadn't been the case?
872
00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:48,300
The surviving victim,
she stopped the attack.
873
00:38:48,467 --> 00:38:49,700
Who knows
what he would have done
874
00:38:49,867 --> 00:38:51,433
if he was able to continue?
875
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,600
So, I mean,
she's the hero in this.
876
00:38:55,633 --> 00:38:58,600
We contacted JC
while working on this program.
877
00:38:58,767 --> 00:39:01,233
She did not wish to
participate, but referred us
878
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,834
to a portion of
her victim impact statement.
879
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,834
"I am not a victim.
I am a survivor.
880
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,767
I am not a witness.
I was attacked.
881
00:39:09,934 --> 00:39:13,000
This should be my heart
pouring out into scribbles.
882
00:39:13,166 --> 00:39:14,967
And this, in turn,
I've come to realize,
883
00:39:15,133 --> 00:39:18,233
is supposed to aid those who
need a voice of faith to light
884
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,633
the path that darkness has
fought so hard to take over."
885
00:39:24,300 --> 00:39:27,433
There is a stigma around
the type of women
886
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,300
who would want to partake
in that kind of work.
887
00:39:30,467 --> 00:39:34,066
But really, it's these spaces
attract all kinds of people.
888
00:39:34,233 --> 00:39:37,066
All kinds of women,
all races, and socioeconomic
889
00:39:37,233 --> 00:39:39,100
and educational
backgrounds as well.
890
00:39:39,266 --> 00:39:41,533
So I thought that
that was maybe a hopeful sign
891
00:39:41,700 --> 00:39:44,333
that we're taking this
kind of violence seriously,
892
00:39:44,500 --> 00:39:47,533
and how we look at
gender-based violence,
893
00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:49,367
especially when
it comes from this place
894
00:39:49,533 --> 00:39:53,734
of male entitlement
and incel ideology,
895
00:39:53,900 --> 00:39:56,600
these crimes are not
just people, like,
896
00:39:56,767 --> 00:39:58,200
screaming on the Internet,
897
00:39:58,367 --> 00:40:00,800
that they have
real-world implications.
898
00:40:00,967 --> 00:40:02,333
He wrote an apology.
899
00:40:02,500 --> 00:40:04,266
Was it authentic? I hope so.
900
00:40:04,433 --> 00:40:06,567
Ultimately, the goal was to try
and get him a youth sentence
901
00:40:06,734 --> 00:40:08,166
to avail him the opportunity
902
00:40:08,333 --> 00:40:10,233
to have a significant amount
of rehabilitation.
903
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,767
I'm just scared of
what's going to happen to me.
904
00:40:12,934 --> 00:40:16,967
He revoked his consent,
effectively saying to me,
905
00:40:17,133 --> 00:40:18,834
which I then had
to say to the judge,
906
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,233
"I don't want you
to order this.
907
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:22,633
I just want a youth sentence,"
908
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,633
meaning, "Just put me in jail
909
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,867
under a youth sentence term
without the treatment."
910
00:40:28,033 --> 00:40:29,300
And the reason,
my understanding,
911
00:40:29,467 --> 00:40:32,900
that he communicated to me
was he was afraid of being
912
00:40:33,066 --> 00:40:36,867
in an institution where
he would have to have cellmates
913
00:40:37,033 --> 00:40:40,533
because of his own personal
fear based on what he'd done.
914
00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:43,033
Can these men be rehabilitated?
915
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,066
Yeah, absolutely.
The problem is that
916
00:40:45,233 --> 00:40:47,066
people have to want to change.
917
00:40:47,233 --> 00:40:48,734
It's like, you know,
quitting drinking
918
00:40:48,900 --> 00:40:50,667
or smoking or any addiction.
919
00:40:50,834 --> 00:40:52,500
And for some,
if that's their identity,
920
00:40:52,667 --> 00:40:54,633
it can become
that difficult to break.
921
00:40:55,867 --> 00:40:57,233
This is the first conviction
922
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,233
for first-degree murder
that was motivated
923
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,734
by the incel ideology.
924
00:41:01,900 --> 00:41:03,333
And in this case today,
925
00:41:03,500 --> 00:41:05,800
the young man was
sentenced as an adult,
926
00:41:05,967 --> 00:41:08,834
even though he was only
17 years old at the time.
927
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:10,667
Justice Sukhail Akhtar
sentenced the man
928
00:41:10,834 --> 00:41:13,533
to life in prison with no
chance of parole for ten years
929
00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:15,400
for the first-degree murder
of Ashley Arzaga,
930
00:41:15,567 --> 00:41:17,467
to be served concurrently
with a three-year sentence
931
00:41:17,633 --> 00:41:19,333
for the attempted murder
of another woman
932
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:21,033
who fought back and survived.
933
00:41:22,233 --> 00:41:25,400
People deserve to be safe
in their place of work.
934
00:41:25,567 --> 00:41:27,900
You know, it doesn't matter
what you do for work.
935
00:41:28,066 --> 00:41:30,100
It does not matter if
you're a Walmart clerk
936
00:41:30,266 --> 00:41:32,100
or a nurse in a hospital
937
00:41:32,266 --> 00:41:34,467
or somebody working
in a massage parlour.
938
00:41:34,633 --> 00:41:36,667
They should not feel that
someone is going to walk
939
00:41:36,834 --> 00:41:40,367
through the door with a sword
and attack them.
940
00:41:40,533 --> 00:41:44,367
What does monitoring incel look
like from your perspective?
941
00:41:44,533 --> 00:41:48,133
From our perspective,
it is actively monitoring
942
00:41:48,300 --> 00:41:51,233
online forums where
incels are known to gather.
943
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,433
It's public messaging, making
sure that the public is aware
944
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,233
of incel indicators
and how to report it,
945
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,600
and treating incel as
a national security matter
946
00:42:00,767 --> 00:42:03,000
with high priority.
947
00:42:03,166 --> 00:42:05,500
You know, relying on the
Internet for your education,
948
00:42:05,667 --> 00:42:07,667
being at home in the basement
with nobody loving you
949
00:42:07,834 --> 00:42:09,834
and supporting you,
not having friends,
950
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,166
having mental health issues
that are--
951
00:42:12,333 --> 00:42:14,567
they influence you enough
that they can drive you
952
00:42:14,734 --> 00:42:17,867
in a direction where
you seize an ideology
953
00:42:18,033 --> 00:42:20,667
that's built on hatred
and built on misogyny.
954
00:42:20,834 --> 00:42:24,467
I think any parent should be
concerned that their children,
955
00:42:24,633 --> 00:42:28,266
whether you are 13, 14, or 15,
you could be in a chatroom,
956
00:42:28,433 --> 00:42:31,166
you'll end up being influenced
by some ideology,
957
00:42:31,333 --> 00:42:33,433
you go out there,
you commit a crime,
958
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,300
you are now ruled
a terrorist by the court.
959
00:42:38,834 --> 00:42:40,667
Would you say
there were red flags?
960
00:42:40,834 --> 00:42:44,800
Absolutely, but the hard part
about those red flags is,
961
00:42:44,967 --> 00:42:46,166
who's seeing them?
962
00:42:46,333 --> 00:42:48,633
He's not at school.
He's not going out very often.
963
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,233
He's not in a workplace.
964
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,500
He's not in a scenario
where he can actually interact
965
00:42:53,667 --> 00:42:56,667
with a woman
and demonstrate any concern.
966
00:42:56,834 --> 00:42:59,433
And that's the problem here,
is that to say that
967
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,567
anybody missed it, I think,
968
00:43:01,734 --> 00:43:06,333
would be a really improper
application of responsibility.
969
00:43:06,500 --> 00:43:09,300
You may say his parents,
but there's nothing to say
970
00:43:09,467 --> 00:43:11,300
that he's gonna
explode with violence.
971
00:43:11,467 --> 00:43:12,867
Because he had
no prior criminal record
972
00:43:13,033 --> 00:43:14,667
or interactions,
nothing that would
973
00:43:14,834 --> 00:43:15,967
make you think
he's gonna be violent.
974
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,533
His mother, he became
increasingly distant from her
975
00:43:21,700 --> 00:43:23,100
and didn't want
to spend any time with her.
976
00:43:23,266 --> 00:43:25,033
He'd also ordered other knives,
977
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,600
which his stepmother
took away from him.
978
00:43:27,767 --> 00:43:30,200
I think they tried
to get him assistance initially
979
00:43:30,367 --> 00:43:33,700
for mental health issues,
and that's why I'm sure
980
00:43:33,867 --> 00:43:36,266
that when they were alerted
to what had occurred,
981
00:43:36,433 --> 00:43:38,100
it was a shock to them.
982
00:43:38,266 --> 00:43:40,266
I think it's incumbent on
family, I think it's incumbent
983
00:43:40,433 --> 00:43:43,967
on our educational system
and our schools,
984
00:43:44,133 --> 00:43:47,367
and, you know, people who
run across these people
985
00:43:47,533 --> 00:43:49,367
that we need to nip this
in the bud
986
00:43:49,533 --> 00:43:52,867
before it gets to the stage
that people get hurt.
987
00:43:55,133 --> 00:43:57,367
There's a little girl
without her mother.
988
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,433
There's parents
without their daughter.
989
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:01,834
It's very impactful.
990
00:44:03,333 --> 00:44:05,934
Ashley Noell Arzaga's
sister shared with us
991
00:44:06,100 --> 00:44:09,934
the eulogy she gave at
the funeral and this message:
992
00:44:38,734 --> 00:44:40,867
Since the Crown Spa attack,
993
00:44:41,033 --> 00:44:44,633
Canada has taken
a hardened approach to incels.
994
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,367
A day after the terror charge
was laid, a report was released
995
00:44:48,533 --> 00:44:50,700
by the Canadian Security
Intelligence Service
996
00:44:50,867 --> 00:44:56,333
specifically naming incels as
an example of violent misogyny.
997
00:44:57,934 --> 00:45:00,367
Thank you for joining us
tonight on Crime Beat.
998
00:45:00,533 --> 00:45:01,967
I'm Antony Robert.
999
00:45:03,467 --> 00:45:05,233
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of Crime Beat?
1000
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,233
Listen to the Crime Beat
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00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,667
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00:45:10,834 --> 00:45:13,333
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