1 00:00:10,903 --> 00:00:12,586 (dial tone) 2 00:00:12,738 --> 00:00:13,846 (dispatch speaking) 3 00:00:14,849 --> 00:00:16,089 (jon speaking) 4 00:00:16,242 --> 00:00:17,758 (dispatch speaking) 5 00:00:17,852 --> 00:00:19,601 (jon speaking) 6 00:00:21,247 --> 00:00:22,429 (dispatch speaking) 7 00:00:22,523 --> 00:00:23,647 (jon speaking) 8 00:00:30,606 --> 00:00:32,923 Jon: It hurt me to lose a friend. 9 00:00:33,016 --> 00:00:34,950 I trusted him. I trusted that man. 10 00:00:55,798 --> 00:00:58,632 I called my wife and told my wife that tim had attacked me, 11 00:00:58,784 --> 00:01:01,968 That I had cut him. It was bad. 12 00:01:02,121 --> 00:01:03,970 The thing that kills me the most about it. 13 00:01:04,065 --> 00:01:08,716 I've spent two years of agony, just to defend myself. 14 00:01:08,811 --> 00:01:10,652 And it's his word against mine. 15 00:01:12,464 --> 00:01:13,864 I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. 16 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,160 My name is winston throgmorton. 17 00:01:27,254 --> 00:01:29,996 I'm a criminal defense attorney in marion, illinois. 18 00:01:30,149 --> 00:01:31,648 I represent jon deneef. 19 00:01:31,667 --> 00:01:34,985 And initially, jon was charged with attempted murder. 20 00:01:35,078 --> 00:01:37,078 That, thankfully was dropped. 21 00:01:37,172 --> 00:01:38,989 He's now charged with aggravated battery, 22 00:01:39,082 --> 00:01:40,415 Which is a class three felony. 23 00:01:40,509 --> 00:01:42,935 Still a very serious crime 24 00:01:43,162 --> 00:01:46,021 And it carries a sentence of up to five years in prison. 25 00:01:50,519 --> 00:01:54,354 On the night in question, jon was having drinks at his friend's house. 26 00:01:54,448 --> 00:01:56,840 They were joined by two neighbors over there. 27 00:01:56,859 --> 00:01:58,692 They were having a good time. 28 00:01:58,844 --> 00:02:02,012 As the evening wore on, the two neighbors decided to leave, 29 00:02:02,105 --> 00:02:04,456 Leaving only jon and the alleged victim. 30 00:02:04,608 --> 00:02:07,960 And now, by this time, both men had been drinking for several hours, 31 00:02:08,187 --> 00:02:10,462 And they both admit they were intoxicated. 32 00:02:10,614 --> 00:02:13,799 What happens next is what everything hinges on. 33 00:02:15,527 --> 00:02:17,861 According to jon, they got into an argument 34 00:02:17,954 --> 00:02:21,306 About how the victim treats his wife. 35 00:02:23,144 --> 00:02:26,294 Jon says the alleged victim, went into the kitchen, 36 00:02:26,313 --> 00:02:29,148 Came back at him, lunged at jon with a butcher knife, 37 00:02:30,151 --> 00:02:32,234 And jon tried to defend himself. 38 00:02:32,987 --> 00:02:34,820 In defending himself, 39 00:02:34,971 --> 00:02:38,473 Jon pulls out his own knife and, in the struggle, 40 00:02:38,567 --> 00:02:42,661 Accidentally cuts the throat of tim, the alleged victim. 41 00:02:44,981 --> 00:02:47,057 Tim thankfully survived, but he was left 42 00:02:47,150 --> 00:02:50,169 With a significant wound on his neck. 43 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:55,749 The prosecution is going to say that this was a violent attack by jon. 44 00:02:55,901 --> 00:02:59,569 I passionately believe jon deneef is innocent 45 00:02:59,663 --> 00:03:01,597 And that he was only defending himself. 46 00:03:05,019 --> 00:03:09,021 The problem here is that there are no witnesses. There's only these two men. 47 00:03:09,172 --> 00:03:11,023 It's one man's word against another. 48 00:03:21,593 --> 00:03:23,093 Jon: Oh. 49 00:03:23,111 --> 00:03:25,704 You're gonna have to help, roll it up there. Come on. 50 00:03:35,865 --> 00:03:37,549 -Kathy: It worked! -Jon: It worked! 51 00:03:37,776 --> 00:03:39,885 -Kathy: Look at that -jon: There you go. 52 00:03:40,112 --> 00:03:42,846 These are my grandchildren. Jacob and brooklyn. 53 00:03:50,547 --> 00:03:53,306 Me and kathy try to help out when we can and try to 54 00:03:53,459 --> 00:03:55,359 Have them every other weekend, if possible. 55 00:04:02,484 --> 00:04:05,410 (children giggling) 56 00:04:05,637 --> 00:04:07,320 Jon: So how many pies are you going to eat? 57 00:04:07,414 --> 00:04:08,972 Jacob: A million. 58 00:04:08,991 --> 00:04:12,209 A million? A million? You can't eat a million pies. 59 00:04:13,996 --> 00:04:15,645 He really loves these kids, 60 00:04:15,739 --> 00:04:18,315 He gets a little emotional sometimes 61 00:04:18,408 --> 00:04:20,092 And he worries about them so much. 62 00:04:20,319 --> 00:04:23,929 (chattering) 63 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,507 Jon: If I had to do time in prison, it would be extremely tough. 64 00:04:27,659 --> 00:04:31,270 I'd be missing out on an opportunity to see them grandkids grow up. 65 00:04:31,421 --> 00:04:34,422 And by the time I will get out, they will be different people. 66 00:04:34,441 --> 00:04:38,092 You know, that's a hard thing to swallow, 67 00:04:38,186 --> 00:04:41,095 To watch your only grandchildren grow up in pictures, you know. 68 00:04:41,189 --> 00:04:44,283 One, two, three. There are three. 69 00:04:44,434 --> 00:04:47,844 And then not be there for them, and find out that they've got 70 00:04:47,863 --> 00:04:52,182 A problem or a need and not be able to do anything about it. 71 00:04:52,275 --> 00:04:55,035 It would be devastating for me 72 00:04:55,129 --> 00:04:58,297 To be someplace where I wasn't able to help them. 73 00:04:58,448 --> 00:05:01,300 To be charged with something that you're not guilty of. 74 00:05:01,527 --> 00:05:05,028 It's tough, there's times I want to just give up. 75 00:05:05,047 --> 00:05:07,806 It's like having cancer and the doctors know whether you're 76 00:05:08,033 --> 00:05:09,725 Going to die or not, but nobody to tell you. 77 00:05:11,645 --> 00:05:13,061 And it hurts. 78 00:05:28,495 --> 00:05:32,238 Jon and the alleged victim have very different versions about what happened that night. 79 00:05:32,333 --> 00:05:35,559 The alleged victim says that jon attacked him with a knife. 80 00:05:35,577 --> 00:05:38,895 Jon says that the alleged victim attacked him with a knife. 81 00:05:38,988 --> 00:05:40,630 Jon is claiming self-defense. 82 00:05:44,327 --> 00:05:46,403 Jon and his wife are coming in this afternoon because... 83 00:05:46,496 --> 00:05:50,349 I want to hear from jon, what happened that night? 84 00:05:52,686 --> 00:05:55,762 -Mrs. Deneef, please have a seat. -Hi. 85 00:05:55,914 --> 00:05:58,081 -Okay. -Good morning. 86 00:05:58,174 --> 00:06:02,361 I have your charges here, and, um... 87 00:06:04,865 --> 00:06:07,591 They're not real good. 88 00:06:07,684 --> 00:06:10,594 You have an aggravated battery, which is a class three felony 89 00:06:10,687 --> 00:06:14,188 That's two to five years in prison, in illinois. 90 00:06:14,282 --> 00:06:17,601 And you also have a reckless conduct, 91 00:06:17,619 --> 00:06:22,881 Which is a class a misdemeanor, which is up to 364 days in county jail. 92 00:06:23,108 --> 00:06:25,108 And you also have another aggravated assault, 93 00:06:25,127 --> 00:06:27,552 Which is also in a class a misdemeanor, 94 00:06:27,779 --> 00:06:33,058 Which is up to 364 days in the county hotel. 95 00:06:33,209 --> 00:06:36,561 Can you give me an idea, jon, of what happened? 96 00:06:36,713 --> 00:06:40,565 I was out working on the barn and so I decided to go across the street to the neighbor's, 97 00:06:40,717 --> 00:06:44,461 Which I've done countless times and have some drinks with him. 98 00:06:44,554 --> 00:06:46,571 -This is tim force? -Yes, tim force. 99 00:06:48,133 --> 00:06:50,575 We were drinking beer with the neighbors. 100 00:06:50,802 --> 00:06:54,137 The neighbors left. Mike and judy. They left. 101 00:06:54,156 --> 00:06:56,306 Me and tim were at the kitchen table. 102 00:06:56,399 --> 00:07:02,236 We were discussing his potential divorce he was getting ready to go through. 103 00:07:02,330 --> 00:07:07,167 He started pretty much slamming his wife and saying it was all her fault, 104 00:07:07,261 --> 00:07:09,819 You know, and making accusations about her... 105 00:07:09,838 --> 00:07:11,838 And tim's getting angry 106 00:07:11,990 --> 00:07:14,599 And I said, "tim, I hate to be the one to tell you this," 107 00:07:14,826 --> 00:07:17,084 I said. "but I told her she needed to move out." 108 00:07:17,179 --> 00:07:19,679 And that's when he jumped up in my face, pointing his finger 109 00:07:19,773 --> 00:07:24,000 And said, (bleep) you, jon, you've been (bleep) my wife". 110 00:07:24,093 --> 00:07:27,353 Then he goes into the kitchen. I thought he was going to get another drink, 111 00:07:27,448 --> 00:07:29,856 And when he comes out of the kitchen he comes straight at me, 112 00:07:30,008 --> 00:07:31,675 And when I look up, he's got a knife in his hand 113 00:07:31,768 --> 00:07:33,618 And he just jabbed it like that. 114 00:07:33,845 --> 00:07:35,679 When he did, I knocked it out of the way 115 00:07:35,697 --> 00:07:39,440 And jumped up out of my chair and then backed away from him. 116 00:07:39,460 --> 00:07:42,109 I pulled my pocket-knife out as I was getting away. 117 00:07:42,129 --> 00:07:45,630 And when he jabbed at me again, I went to knock him away 118 00:07:45,857 --> 00:07:49,384 And I had my knife in my hand and I believe I hit him in the neck with my knife. 119 00:07:51,213 --> 00:07:53,972 He grabbed his neck, turned and went to the bathroom. 120 00:07:54,123 --> 00:07:56,700 He wasn't in there but a second and out the back door. 121 00:07:56,793 --> 00:07:59,794 And then I called my wife and told my wife that tim and attacked me, 122 00:07:59,888 --> 00:08:02,147 That I had cut him. It was bad. 123 00:08:03,650 --> 00:08:05,967 I called for help immediately, 124 00:08:05,986 --> 00:08:08,570 And the next thing I know I'm locked up in a squad car. 125 00:08:10,732 --> 00:08:13,575 Nathan: Before he went in the kitchen and came back with the knife, 126 00:08:15,570 --> 00:08:19,915 He made a statement to you. About having sex with his wife. 127 00:08:20,316 --> 00:08:22,167 Yes. 128 00:08:22,394 --> 00:08:24,002 -Were you? -No, absolutely. Not. 129 00:08:26,581 --> 00:08:31,510 Well, in illinois, we do not have a 'stand your ground law'. 130 00:08:31,737 --> 00:08:34,754 You have a duty to retreat. If you can. 131 00:08:34,906 --> 00:08:38,666 You can, if threatened with deadly force, 132 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:43,188 Meet that deadly force proportionate to the imminent threat. 133 00:08:43,415 --> 00:08:46,249 When tim came at you with the knife, did you feel 134 00:08:46,342 --> 00:08:48,768 -Your life was threatened? -Absolutely. 135 00:08:48,862 --> 00:08:51,271 Absolutely. I... 136 00:08:51,423 --> 00:08:54,866 The way he jabbed that knife at me and the look on his face, 137 00:08:55,093 --> 00:08:59,429 -He looked like he meant to hurt me bad. -Okay. 138 00:08:59,447 --> 00:09:02,874 This... This is clearly a self-defense case. 139 00:09:03,101 --> 00:09:07,379 People who commit heinous crimes with intent to commit that heinous crime, 140 00:09:07,530 --> 00:09:10,290 Such as attempted murder or battery, they don't stay, 141 00:09:10,442 --> 00:09:12,199 They don't call 911. 142 00:09:12,294 --> 00:09:13,868 You, on the other hand, did. 143 00:09:13,962 --> 00:09:16,388 We believe that you have a very strong case of self-defense 144 00:09:16,615 --> 00:09:19,707 And we're going to do everything that we can to see that, that's put before a jury. 145 00:09:19,801 --> 00:09:20,875 All right? Yup. 146 00:09:20,969 --> 00:09:22,227 -All right. -I appreciate it. 147 00:09:23,730 --> 00:09:24,896 You too. 148 00:09:33,222 --> 00:09:34,464 Winston: Usually, in a criminal case, 149 00:09:34,482 --> 00:09:37,300 The burden is on the prosecution. 150 00:09:37,319 --> 00:09:41,821 In a self-defense case, he burden shifts and it's on the defendant. 151 00:09:41,973 --> 00:09:43,990 Now we're going to have to show self-defense. 152 00:09:44,084 --> 00:09:47,310 That jon was under attack, that he feared for his life 153 00:09:47,403 --> 00:09:48,878 And that he acted proportionately. 154 00:09:50,999 --> 00:09:53,717 This case is going to be decided by who they believe most. 155 00:09:55,003 --> 00:09:56,928 One man's word against another. 156 00:10:03,328 --> 00:10:08,732 My neighbor lives right over here in this grey house with a blue roof. 157 00:10:11,670 --> 00:10:13,236 And that's where this incident happened. 158 00:10:17,692 --> 00:10:19,451 I'd say I knew tim for 10 years 159 00:10:19,678 --> 00:10:22,846 And considered one of my best friends. 160 00:10:22,939 --> 00:10:26,699 I trusted him. I trusted that man. 161 00:10:26,852 --> 00:10:30,520 I can tell he's watching because as soon I walk outside the door, 162 00:10:30,538 --> 00:10:35,800 He comes outside to make sure that I know that he's watching. 163 00:10:35,952 --> 00:10:38,219 It scares my wife, I think, worse and it scares me. 164 00:10:40,031 --> 00:10:42,365 So, needless to say, it's... 165 00:10:42,458 --> 00:10:44,267 It's been irritating and stressful. 166 00:10:46,813 --> 00:10:49,296 Not to be able to live in your own home... 167 00:10:49,316 --> 00:10:54,227 Living across the street from somebody that's telling lies about you. 168 00:10:54,321 --> 00:10:58,214 It's heartbreaking, and there's no way to fix it. 169 00:10:58,233 --> 00:11:00,158 There's no going back to that night. 170 00:11:07,668 --> 00:11:12,228 Winston: Nathan, let's take a look at these photos 171 00:11:12,247 --> 00:11:16,007 I got from the washington county sheriff's office. 172 00:11:16,159 --> 00:11:19,585 -Winston: They're quite gory. -Nathan: Man, that's a lot of blood. 173 00:11:19,738 --> 00:11:22,163 Winston: Well, it's a neck wound. 174 00:11:22,257 --> 00:11:27,668 And you know, nathan, I can't even imagine just a smidge deeper. 175 00:11:27,762 --> 00:11:32,582 And tim force could be dead. And jon, looking at murder charges. 176 00:11:32,675 --> 00:11:34,842 -Nathan: This would be a whole different case. -Whole different case. 177 00:11:34,861 --> 00:11:39,939 When this goes to trial, the prosecution is going to present the story. 178 00:11:40,091 --> 00:11:43,443 You have a guy in his home, invited his neighbors over. 179 00:11:43,537 --> 00:11:47,021 And at the end of the night, he's bled all over the place. 180 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:48,948 He's been slashed in the throat. 181 00:11:49,042 --> 00:11:52,544 Their initial reaction is going to be, jon attacked tim, 182 00:11:52,771 --> 00:11:55,196 And that's going to be a high hill to climb. 183 00:11:55,290 --> 00:11:58,124 -Winston: We've got jon's knife. -Nathan: Mmm-hmm. 184 00:11:58,276 --> 00:12:03,279 Where's 's the picture of tim's knife when he came out of the kitchen at jon? 185 00:12:03,298 --> 00:12:06,391 Winston: Therein lies the rub. I haven't found that. 186 00:12:09,229 --> 00:12:12,564 The crime scene investigator focused on everything, 187 00:12:12,715 --> 00:12:15,291 Guns, food in the freezer. 188 00:12:15,384 --> 00:12:17,218 Nathan: He doesn't inventory any knife. 189 00:12:17,237 --> 00:12:19,645 I think by the time he gets on the scene, 190 00:12:19,740 --> 00:12:23,299 The local sheriff's office has quote, "figured it out". 191 00:12:23,392 --> 00:12:24,984 Winston: I believe the knife is there. 192 00:12:25,136 --> 00:12:28,229 But due to poor police work, 193 00:12:28,248 --> 00:12:31,491 That knife will not be found. 194 00:12:31,585 --> 00:12:33,734 Nathan: It's a problem if we don't have a knife and our... 195 00:12:33,828 --> 00:12:35,253 Winston: Big hurdle to overcome 196 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,905 ...And our guy's being attacked with it. -That's right. 197 00:12:37,924 --> 00:12:40,717 I mean, if this is self-defense, what are we defending ourself against? 198 00:12:57,018 --> 00:12:58,943 I've got a case, I need your help with. 199 00:12:59,095 --> 00:13:00,945 -Okay. -It's an aggravated battery. 200 00:13:01,097 --> 00:13:05,432 No one was there at the time of the alleged incident, 201 00:13:05,452 --> 00:13:09,362 Except the alleged victim and the defendant. 202 00:13:09,514 --> 00:13:14,367 My client allegedly used a knife to cut a guy. 203 00:13:14,519 --> 00:13:19,464 According to my client, force came at him with a knife, 204 00:13:19,615 --> 00:13:22,801 And my client was able to brush it off and back up. 205 00:13:23,028 --> 00:13:24,785 And in the meantime, pulled out his own knife, 206 00:13:24,805 --> 00:13:26,453 Force came at him again, 207 00:13:26,473 --> 00:13:29,474 Jon knocks tim force's hand out of the way 208 00:13:29,625 --> 00:13:32,977 And in doing so, scrapes his neck. 209 00:13:33,204 --> 00:13:37,890 Jon deneef has never wavered from day one... 210 00:13:37,984 --> 00:13:40,376 This is all self-defense 211 00:13:40,469 --> 00:13:44,047 So we've got a lot of people we need to interview and get statements from. 212 00:13:44,140 --> 00:13:45,990 So, that's going to be very important, 213 00:13:46,217 --> 00:13:49,476 Especially if you've kept relevant information, especially that night. 214 00:13:49,571 --> 00:13:51,404 Timeline issues and stuff like that. 215 00:13:51,556 --> 00:13:54,499 Excellent, I need an experienced investigator 216 00:13:54,650 --> 00:13:56,726 And you're the guy I need. 217 00:13:56,819 --> 00:13:59,295 -Okay, sounds good, let's do it. -All right. 218 00:14:01,824 --> 00:14:04,992 My objective for winston is to find "the good, the bad and the ugly", 219 00:14:05,086 --> 00:14:08,905 So he doesn't have any surprises when he goes to trial. 220 00:14:08,923 --> 00:14:10,590 So, we're going to do our own investigation. 221 00:14:10,684 --> 00:14:13,242 We're going to turn over every stone there is out there. 222 00:14:13,261 --> 00:14:15,436 We're going to talk to anybody and everybody. 223 00:14:36,117 --> 00:14:38,101 Jon: I spend a lot of time out here in the barn. 224 00:14:38,194 --> 00:14:42,380 It helps give me something else to focus on. 225 00:14:42,531 --> 00:14:47,110 This situation has tainted this place for me and my wife both. 226 00:14:47,203 --> 00:14:50,279 We loved it here. Put our heart and souls in it. 227 00:14:50,298 --> 00:14:52,181 I can't take it no more. 228 00:14:54,135 --> 00:14:56,895 You get accused of something, 229 00:14:57,122 --> 00:15:00,123 And you are guilty until proven innocent. 230 00:15:00,216 --> 00:15:02,901 And that's exactly what this is. 231 00:15:03,052 --> 00:15:07,554 In some of the people's eyes around here, I'm guilty. 232 00:15:07,649 --> 00:15:09,799 There are people in this community, 233 00:15:09,817 --> 00:15:12,660 That all they heard was I was accused of these crimes, 234 00:15:13,988 --> 00:15:16,472 And that ain't ever going to go away. 235 00:15:16,491 --> 00:15:18,416 And the thing that kills me the most about it... 236 00:15:18,643 --> 00:15:23,663 I've spent almost $70,000 and two years of agony, 237 00:15:23,757 --> 00:15:25,739 Lost a good job, 238 00:15:25,833 --> 00:15:27,741 Just to defend myself. 239 00:15:27,835 --> 00:15:30,094 And it's his word against mine. 240 00:15:32,581 --> 00:15:34,724 I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. 241 00:15:44,018 --> 00:15:51,007 Nathen, come in I want to show you this interview of jon deneef. 242 00:15:51,025 --> 00:15:52,766 Nathan: And he's been in jail all night now? 243 00:15:52,786 --> 00:15:54,118 He's been in jail all night, yeah. 244 00:16:17,293 --> 00:16:19,885 Look at that hand motion he's making. 245 00:16:20,038 --> 00:16:23,055 -When he's telling the cop what happened, he's reliving it. -He sure is. 246 00:16:23,208 --> 00:16:26,818 "I brushed him away," but he's consistent with what happened the night before. 247 00:16:47,081 --> 00:16:49,823 You know, he talks about, and the deputy asked him again... 248 00:16:49,843 --> 00:16:54,070 "did you stab him or slash him?" and he gives a stab motion. 249 00:16:54,088 --> 00:16:55,921 He says he stabbed him in the right shoulder. 250 00:16:56,016 --> 00:16:58,665 We know there's no right shoulder wound, at this stage. 251 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,243 It was only a neck wound. 252 00:17:00,261 --> 00:17:02,836 If there was no injury to tim's right shoulder, 253 00:17:02,856 --> 00:17:06,173 Why should anybody believe jon's testimony 254 00:17:06,192 --> 00:17:08,317 That there was a knife in tim's hand, coming at him? 255 00:17:31,367 --> 00:17:34,944 In the police interview, jon said he stabbed his neighbor. 256 00:17:35,037 --> 00:17:37,722 The prosecution is going to say that this was an intentional act. 257 00:17:37,949 --> 00:17:40,058 And looking at the wound, jon is going to have to 258 00:17:40,209 --> 00:17:43,227 Explain to me how he nicked him instead of stabbing him. 259 00:17:45,290 --> 00:17:47,881 So, jon is coming in to tell us exactly what happened 260 00:17:47,901 --> 00:17:52,295 So that we can get his story absolutely straight. 261 00:17:52,388 --> 00:17:54,072 Winston: I called you in and we just want to talk a little bit more 262 00:17:54,299 --> 00:17:56,574 About what happened that other night, okay? 263 00:17:56,725 --> 00:17:59,652 So, say this table is where you were. 264 00:17:59,804 --> 00:18:01,746 I know it's a desk. If you were sitting... 265 00:18:01,897 --> 00:18:04,657 Jon: I were sitting here, my chair would have been like this 266 00:18:04,809 --> 00:18:07,919 Because I had my beer and tim was on the other side of the table. 267 00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:10,237 And he got up and went into the... 268 00:18:10,256 --> 00:18:13,240 Well, we were arguing, and he turned around and he went into the kitchen. 269 00:18:13,259 --> 00:18:14,926 Winston: And then what happened? 270 00:18:15,077 --> 00:18:17,411 He comes right out in front of me and stands where nathan's at 271 00:18:17,505 --> 00:18:19,430 And he just jabs a knife at me. 272 00:18:19,657 --> 00:18:21,507 Nathan: Which hand was his knife in? 273 00:18:21,659 --> 00:18:23,417 Jon: I believe it was in his right hand. 274 00:18:23,511 --> 00:18:25,511 So, he comes out of the kitchen and he's coming at you 275 00:18:25,663 --> 00:18:27,105 -With the kitchen knife? -Yes. 276 00:18:27,256 --> 00:18:29,181 -And he jabs it at you. -And I went like this. 277 00:18:29,275 --> 00:18:31,334 Nathan: Okay. Where was the knife pointed at? 278 00:18:31,427 --> 00:18:32,777 Jon: Just like your hand is. 279 00:18:33,004 --> 00:18:35,262 -And what did you do? -I went like this. 280 00:18:35,356 --> 00:18:37,840 -Okay? And what did he do? -Winston: Okay, and then what? 281 00:18:37,859 --> 00:18:40,676 He just stood right there when I knocked like this 282 00:18:40,695 --> 00:18:42,286 And started following me. 283 00:18:42,513 --> 00:18:44,622 -Okay? -And I grabbed my knife, just like this, 284 00:18:44,773 --> 00:18:46,198 Pulled my knife out... 285 00:18:46,292 --> 00:18:47,700 -Did he still have his knife out? -Yes, he did. 286 00:18:47,794 --> 00:18:49,352 And he kept coming at me 287 00:18:49,370 --> 00:18:51,462 And I said, "knock it off, tim! What are you doing?" 288 00:18:51,614 --> 00:18:52,855 He kept coming at me, 289 00:18:52,948 --> 00:18:54,874 And then he jabbed again, and when he did, 290 00:18:55,026 --> 00:18:57,284 -I went like this to knock him out of the way. -Nathan: Mm-hmm. 291 00:18:57,303 --> 00:19:00,546 He grabs for his neck, turns and goes to the bathroom. 292 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,367 When you watch the interview... You use this motion. 293 00:19:04,385 --> 00:19:05,643 Winston: Stabbing motion... 294 00:19:05,870 --> 00:19:08,554 And you told deputy campbell that you thought 295 00:19:08,706 --> 00:19:12,224 That you had stabbed him in the right shoulder. 296 00:19:12,377 --> 00:19:14,635 All I knew is I went to block tim 297 00:19:14,729 --> 00:19:18,564 And I didn't know if it was a downward thrust a poking thrust. 298 00:19:18,658 --> 00:19:20,324 I did not know. 299 00:19:20,476 --> 00:19:24,236 He jabbed. I blocked. And I hit him and I felt my hand hit him. 300 00:19:24,389 --> 00:19:27,556 But I don't know which position my hand was in. 301 00:19:27,650 --> 00:19:29,241 I wasn't trying to attack him. 302 00:19:29,335 --> 00:19:32,503 I had a knife in my hand and tried to block him. 303 00:19:32,730 --> 00:19:34,672 The forensic evidence is consistent with 304 00:19:35,583 --> 00:19:37,658 What you're telling us. 305 00:19:37,752 --> 00:19:39,735 So that's important. 306 00:19:39,828 --> 00:19:42,346 Winston: It's very important because you're going to have to do this 307 00:19:42,498 --> 00:19:46,592 Again and maybe even again and again at trial. 308 00:19:46,744 --> 00:19:49,578 You might have to do it over and over and over. 309 00:19:49,672 --> 00:19:52,690 Nathan: I don't... I don't think that anything that we've heard... 310 00:19:52,841 --> 00:19:55,768 -Winston: Contradicts? -Nathan: ...Contradicts a self-defense, defense. 311 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,770 Winston: Not a bit. 312 00:19:57,864 --> 00:19:59,530 -Good to see you again, jon. -Thank you. You too. 313 00:20:02,202 --> 00:20:04,777 Nathan: When the detective had him 314 00:20:04,929 --> 00:20:06,353 Explaining things, the following morning, 315 00:20:06,372 --> 00:20:08,372 He just had him sitting in that chair. 316 00:20:08,524 --> 00:20:11,876 He was randomly flailing his arms. 317 00:20:12,103 --> 00:20:14,453 But today I had him actually demonstrate, 318 00:20:14,547 --> 00:20:17,006 As opposed to merely explain what had happened. 319 00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:20,960 The ultimate question for the judge is, 320 00:20:21,112 --> 00:20:23,612 "who was the initial aggressor?" 321 00:20:23,706 --> 00:20:26,465 Tim is going to say, jon was. 322 00:20:26,617 --> 00:20:29,209 Jon is going to say, tim was. 323 00:20:29,229 --> 00:20:33,231 That question, and the answer to it, is going to decide this case. 324 00:20:42,075 --> 00:20:43,532 -Jon: Got something for lunch? -Kathy: Yes. 325 00:20:45,394 --> 00:20:48,079 -You hungry? You want beans? -Sounds good. 326 00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:50,581 Okay, I'm having pea soup. 327 00:20:56,256 --> 00:20:59,257 -You want cornbread? -A little piece. Not much. 328 00:20:59,484 --> 00:21:00,383 Kathy: Okay 329 00:21:04,505 --> 00:21:05,429 Jon: Thank you. 330 00:21:12,438 --> 00:21:15,164 I don't like the idea of me going to prison, 331 00:21:15,182 --> 00:21:17,608 But, you know, we've got to prepare for the worst. 332 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,338 If she know where they would put me in jail... 333 00:21:22,356 --> 00:21:25,858 She gonna live close to me so she can see me if they let her see me. 334 00:21:26,010 --> 00:21:28,010 Kathy: We depend on each other, 335 00:21:28,029 --> 00:21:31,956 So it's hard to imagine not having that person that you depend on around. 336 00:21:33,776 --> 00:21:36,085 This case is tough. 337 00:21:40,633 --> 00:21:43,042 Because of what I'm going through, she's going through 338 00:21:43,194 --> 00:21:45,636 Everything I'm going through, and she didn't do nothing. 339 00:21:45,863 --> 00:21:47,596 -Kathy: He feels like he let me down. -Yeah. 340 00:21:48,866 --> 00:21:50,699 You know, through all of this, 341 00:21:50,718 --> 00:21:53,218 There's no way I can make it through this without you. 342 00:21:53,371 --> 00:21:55,813 You've been the best, best supporter I could have ever had. 343 00:21:57,466 --> 00:22:00,318 And I loved you before... (chuckles) 344 00:22:01,546 --> 00:22:02,987 (sighs) 345 00:22:04,398 --> 00:22:05,656 I didn't think I could love you more. 346 00:22:28,573 --> 00:22:32,183 Winston: I've obtained the 911 calls from the prosecution. 347 00:22:32,334 --> 00:22:33,667 Nathan's coming in this afternoon, 348 00:22:33,686 --> 00:22:34,852 And we're going to listen to them. 349 00:22:36,597 --> 00:22:38,171 -Winston: Hey, nathan. -Hey, winston 350 00:22:38,191 --> 00:22:40,024 I hear that we have some new evidence. 351 00:23:20,233 --> 00:23:22,124 I think that's it. 352 00:23:22,217 --> 00:23:25,736 He reports to the 911 operator 353 00:23:25,963 --> 00:23:30,891 That tim is alert, he's conscious. 354 00:23:30,910 --> 00:23:34,153 The neighbor doesn't have much detail. 355 00:23:34,247 --> 00:23:36,730 All he can say is, "I wasn't there, I don't know." 356 00:23:36,749 --> 00:23:38,874 There's no surprise in there that hurts us. 357 00:23:44,331 --> 00:23:46,757 Okay, we've heard the neighbor's 911. 358 00:23:47,835 --> 00:23:52,096 We have the 911 from jon... 359 00:23:52,247 --> 00:23:55,766 -Nathan: Good. -This is very exciting to hear... 360 00:23:55,918 --> 00:23:58,177 I think this can really support our case 361 00:23:58,271 --> 00:24:00,679 As far as his mindset. 362 00:24:00,773 --> 00:24:03,774 -Nothing to cover up. Calling for help. -Right. 363 00:24:04,001 --> 00:24:06,927 I agree. You know, this can only be good. 364 00:24:07,021 --> 00:24:08,112 -Let's hear it. -Okay. 365 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,284 This is not good for his defense. 366 00:24:31,304 --> 00:24:34,788 The initial "I slit my neighbor's throat". 367 00:24:34,882 --> 00:24:37,382 You know, that's a problem for us we're going to have to 368 00:24:37,477 --> 00:24:42,980 Be able to get people past the initial shock of... 369 00:24:43,131 --> 00:24:44,482 -The admission. -Of the admission. 370 00:25:02,150 --> 00:25:03,667 We're going to play this 911 call, -it's like he's confessing it's very bad. -It's bad. 371 00:25:03,819 --> 00:25:06,245 Of course, in trial. 372 00:25:06,397 --> 00:25:10,749 Um, it doesn't sound good. "I slit my neighbor's throat." 373 00:25:10,843 --> 00:25:14,903 Uh, but at the same time, it's like he's confessing. 374 00:25:14,997 --> 00:25:17,848 Guilty people just don't up and confess. 375 00:25:18,075 --> 00:25:20,834 They run, they lie, and they hide. 376 00:25:20,853 --> 00:25:23,670 That didn't happen here, and we need to play that up. 377 00:25:23,689 --> 00:25:24,647 Right 378 00:25:28,102 --> 00:25:31,511 Kevin: So I'm enroute right now to go interview mike scoles 379 00:25:31,531 --> 00:25:33,605 And judy vickers. 380 00:25:33,758 --> 00:25:36,200 They're next door neighbors of tim force. 381 00:25:49,123 --> 00:25:51,197 -Kevin: Hi. Judy? -Yeah. 382 00:25:51,217 --> 00:25:55,294 Judy, my name is kevin mclain. I'm a legal investigator. 383 00:25:55,446 --> 00:25:58,389 I'm working for jon deneef and his attorneys. 384 00:25:58,540 --> 00:26:01,392 I was wondering if I might be able to have permission to speak with you. 385 00:26:01,619 --> 00:26:03,561 -I don't see any reason why not? -Okay. 386 00:26:03,788 --> 00:26:05,896 -And you happen to be mike? -Yep, I'm mike. 387 00:26:06,123 --> 00:26:08,882 Hey, mike. Very nice to meet you also, sir. 388 00:26:08,976 --> 00:26:12,294 Just walk me through that night, before the incident happened. 389 00:26:12,387 --> 00:26:16,574 We went over there, and I guess... About an hour, hour and half... 390 00:26:16,725 --> 00:26:18,801 -Thought that was a good time for us to leave. -Right. 391 00:26:18,819 --> 00:26:22,395 We came back, and it's about dark that time, 392 00:26:22,489 --> 00:26:26,141 -And that's when I heard the banging on the door. -Mm-hm. 393 00:26:26,234 --> 00:26:29,828 Opened the door and tim came in, and he had a towel around his neck, 394 00:26:29,980 --> 00:26:32,497 You know, and said, jon slit his throat open, 395 00:26:32,650 --> 00:26:34,592 You know, and I said, "huh?" 396 00:26:34,819 --> 00:26:36,652 Kevin: Did tim say anything about what happened when he came over here? 397 00:26:36,670 --> 00:26:40,322 The only thing I could get was jon left, came back in 398 00:26:40,341 --> 00:26:42,841 And he was over by the fire, 399 00:26:42,993 --> 00:26:46,511 And then he turned around and that's when jon sliced his throat. 400 00:26:46,606 --> 00:26:49,681 Did he ever say why jon would cut his throat? 401 00:26:49,775 --> 00:26:52,776 You know what? I could not see any reason for it, 402 00:26:52,928 --> 00:26:56,004 -You know, I mean... We've been friends for years. -Right. 403 00:26:56,098 --> 00:26:59,599 Jon's a big guy. I mean, he could've broke timmy, you know, by hand. 404 00:26:59,693 --> 00:27:02,361 I mean, there was no one reason to pull a knife out on him, you know? 405 00:27:02,513 --> 00:27:04,863 And, you know, I could see if tim came at him 406 00:27:05,015 --> 00:27:06,773 And he had to protect himself or something. 407 00:27:06,792 --> 00:27:09,534 Hopefully you still may have it. You've got your different 408 00:27:09,629 --> 00:27:12,020 Cameras up there, the surveillance cameras. 409 00:27:12,114 --> 00:27:14,298 -Tim: Yeah. -I was wanting to see maybe if you might possibly have 410 00:27:14,525 --> 00:27:16,191 -Something that I could acquire? -Yeah. No problem. 411 00:27:16,210 --> 00:27:18,118 Okay, great. 412 00:27:18,212 --> 00:27:18,877 Mike: As far as the cameras on the house, they picked up everything 413 00:27:18,971 --> 00:27:20,137 That happened that night 414 00:27:20,364 --> 00:27:22,139 Kevin: Did the police ever ask for that? 415 00:27:22,366 --> 00:27:25,033 No, not even once. I was surprised 416 00:27:25,052 --> 00:27:26,292 -Thanks again, mike. -No problem, man. (chuckles) 417 00:27:26,312 --> 00:27:27,811 Really appreciate it. Thank you, sir 418 00:27:32,985 --> 00:27:37,488 These interviews are so important because... 419 00:27:37,639 --> 00:27:42,493 We've just found new evidence that's never been collected, 420 00:27:42,644 --> 00:27:46,238 So I'm really excited to find out what all is on that 421 00:27:46,332 --> 00:27:48,666 Surveillance system, to tell the rest of the story. 422 00:28:01,572 --> 00:28:03,138 Kathy: This has been my happy place for so long. 423 00:28:04,258 --> 00:28:06,684 With everything that's happened, 424 00:28:06,911 --> 00:28:09,186 This neighborhood just doesn't feel safe anymore. 425 00:28:12,249 --> 00:28:16,176 This has affected me because I pulled back away from my community 426 00:28:16,195 --> 00:28:21,181 Because I felt like I was-- we were branded as criminals. 427 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,776 You know, jon was branded as a criminal and I was his wife, 428 00:28:24,929 --> 00:28:29,689 And I just thought, what must people think. 429 00:28:29,783 --> 00:28:32,501 It's a scary feeling. It makes you feel like you're not safe. 430 00:29:05,911 --> 00:29:08,153 I've forensically gone through this entire video 431 00:29:08,247 --> 00:29:10,973 And there's not one time that jon leaves that house, 432 00:29:10,991 --> 00:29:13,809 There's not one time that his truck leaves and goes back 433 00:29:13,827 --> 00:29:15,827 Over to his residence. Nothing. 434 00:29:15,921 --> 00:29:18,330 So, let me start playing it here, and watch this 435 00:29:18,424 --> 00:29:21,166 Because as you can see, this is tim's house here 436 00:29:21,260 --> 00:29:23,485 You know, he's saying john left... Left the house , 437 00:29:23,578 --> 00:29:25,411 Which john would have to have a vehicle. 438 00:29:25,431 --> 00:29:27,765 You'd have to see lights coming across to the right. 439 00:29:27,992 --> 00:29:29,841 And what amazes me, too about this is 440 00:29:29,994 --> 00:29:31,435 Law enforcement never got this. 441 00:29:32,587 --> 00:29:34,772 -Never got it, no. -Never? 442 00:29:34,923 --> 00:29:39,184 Kevin: So let's go forward here and you go to see tim 443 00:29:39,336 --> 00:29:42,854 Coming across to your... Right there, you see? 444 00:29:42,948 --> 00:29:45,449 You're going to be starting to see lights coming on. 445 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,027 These are first responders, okay? 911 has now been called, 446 00:29:49,179 --> 00:29:50,954 And now they're starting to show up at this time. 447 00:29:51,106 --> 00:29:54,366 Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, these first responders 448 00:29:54,460 --> 00:29:58,036 Are some people I think we need to talk to. 449 00:29:58,188 --> 00:29:59,538 -'cause they'll have... -Oh. 450 00:29:59,632 --> 00:30:01,373 -Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. -Mm-hm. 451 00:30:01,467 --> 00:30:03,616 Kevin: This whole time we've watched this, 452 00:30:03,710 --> 00:30:06,028 -We've not seen anybody else moving around... -Correct 453 00:30:06,046 --> 00:30:08,380 ...Or anything like that, except for tim. 454 00:30:08,532 --> 00:30:11,533 In tim's interview, he said jon left the house. 455 00:30:11,626 --> 00:30:15,145 This is conclusive that jon never left. 456 00:30:23,230 --> 00:30:26,231 I was able to track down the first person on the scene. 457 00:30:26,383 --> 00:30:29,809 His name's adam haas. He is a volunteer fireman. 458 00:30:29,829 --> 00:30:34,498 And we're currently on the way out there right now, to go interview him. 459 00:30:40,655 --> 00:30:42,172 -Hi. Adam? -Yes. 460 00:30:42,324 --> 00:30:44,566 Hey, adam. My name is kevin mcclain, 461 00:30:44,659 --> 00:30:46,009 And I'm a legal investigator. 462 00:30:46,161 --> 00:30:48,403 There's an incident that happened up the road here 463 00:30:48,496 --> 00:30:50,072 -Involving tim force. -Yes 464 00:30:50,165 --> 00:30:51,740 -Can you remember that? -Yeah. 465 00:30:51,758 --> 00:30:52,924 I'd like to have permission, 466 00:30:53,018 --> 00:30:54,926 -Maybe to talk to you a little bit? -Yeah. 467 00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:57,187 If you could share with me what you remember 468 00:30:57,339 --> 00:30:58,580 -About that night... -Adam: Mmm-hmm. 469 00:30:58,599 --> 00:31:01,007 We got the call. I showed up 470 00:31:01,026 --> 00:31:04,252 And I was the first one there. 471 00:31:04,346 --> 00:31:08,757 Tim was bleeding. He was cut at the... From, you know, in this area. 472 00:31:08,775 --> 00:31:12,035 There was a lot of blood. We held the rags on him 473 00:31:12,187 --> 00:31:14,354 And that's when he started talking. 474 00:31:14,448 --> 00:31:17,782 Okay, so walk me back through what he told you had happened. 475 00:31:17,877 --> 00:31:20,711 He told three different stories from the time it happened, 476 00:31:20,862 --> 00:31:23,939 To the time we were at the hospital. 477 00:31:23,957 --> 00:31:27,125 So within that hours' time, he'd given three different stories? 478 00:31:27,219 --> 00:31:28,368 Yes, correct. 479 00:31:28,387 --> 00:31:30,629 Okay, so let's go through the first story. 480 00:31:30,723 --> 00:31:33,724 I said, "tim, what happened?" he said, "jon". 481 00:31:33,951 --> 00:31:35,800 And I said, "what do you mean, "jon"?" 482 00:31:35,953 --> 00:31:39,471 That's when he was going on about the-- his wife and jon thing. 483 00:31:39,623 --> 00:31:41,714 He was telling me he was sleeping with patti, 484 00:31:41,808 --> 00:31:45,460 And he said that then he left and came back with a knife 485 00:31:45,553 --> 00:31:47,312 And he said that "he cut me". 486 00:31:47,464 --> 00:31:50,632 So tim indicates that jon and patti had been 487 00:31:50,725 --> 00:31:51,650 -Doing something together? -Yep. 488 00:31:51,802 --> 00:31:53,652 And the fight because of patti? 489 00:31:53,746 --> 00:31:55,987 -Yes, correct. -And then you mentioned about 490 00:31:56,081 --> 00:31:57,822 There was a second time that he makes a statement. 491 00:31:57,917 --> 00:31:59,082 Walk me through that. 492 00:31:59,309 --> 00:32:02,827 This was on the way to he hospital. 493 00:32:02,922 --> 00:32:05,313 He didn't directly tell me this. I was driving, 494 00:32:05,332 --> 00:32:07,073 That's when I heard him telling the paramedics 495 00:32:07,092 --> 00:32:11,169 Jon was trying to dance with him and he didn't want to dance. 496 00:32:11,321 --> 00:32:13,096 And that's how it all happened. 497 00:32:13,248 --> 00:32:14,431 Tim didn't want to dance with jon. 498 00:32:15,659 --> 00:32:17,583 And that was the second story? 499 00:32:17,603 --> 00:32:19,678 -Yes, that was while we were in the ambulance. -Okay, 500 00:32:19,830 --> 00:32:21,680 And then there was a third story? 501 00:32:21,832 --> 00:32:24,942 Yeah, he told the nurses in the hospital that jon was 502 00:32:25,093 --> 00:32:27,519 Trying to do homosexual things with him and he didn't want to. 503 00:32:27,613 --> 00:32:29,337 -Okay, thanks again. Appreciate it. -Thank you. 504 00:32:29,431 --> 00:32:30,614 -Have a good evening. -You too. 505 00:32:34,861 --> 00:32:38,363 Kevin: What was so important about adam's interview 506 00:32:38,515 --> 00:32:42,350 Was tim gave three different statements 507 00:32:42,369 --> 00:32:44,444 Within a matter of an hour's time, 508 00:32:44,463 --> 00:32:46,630 That adam overheard. 509 00:32:46,781 --> 00:32:49,466 Tim force, if he goes to trial, he's not going to remember which... 510 00:32:49,617 --> 00:32:51,635 Which story he told to who, when. 511 00:33:01,814 --> 00:33:04,206 Winston: You know, we're getting very close to trial. 512 00:33:04,299 --> 00:33:07,818 I've got patti force coming in. The ex-wife of the alleged victim, 513 00:33:08,045 --> 00:33:10,487 It's crucial that she tells me everything 514 00:33:10,638 --> 00:33:15,492 About her husband and about what she knows about jon deneef. 515 00:33:25,896 --> 00:33:27,504 Thanks for coming in this morning, patti. 516 00:33:27,655 --> 00:33:29,322 When did you meet tim? 517 00:33:29,341 --> 00:33:31,800 I met him in 2016. 518 00:33:33,904 --> 00:33:35,920 I think it was in September or October. 519 00:33:36,015 --> 00:33:39,257 -And then things just kind of just evolved from there. -Kind of just happened. Right. 520 00:33:39,409 --> 00:33:43,245 All right. What happened to your and tim's relationship 521 00:33:43,263 --> 00:33:46,248 After you two got married? 522 00:33:46,266 --> 00:33:50,252 Everything went downhill. Absolutely everything. Um... 523 00:33:50,270 --> 00:33:54,756 Actually, now when I look back after this long, 524 00:33:54,849 --> 00:33:58,035 There was so many red flags that I totally just didn't see them. 525 00:33:58,262 --> 00:34:02,021 Do you think that tim has an explosive character? 526 00:34:02,041 --> 00:34:04,616 -Very explosive. -Just pops like that 527 00:34:04,710 --> 00:34:07,936 Just like that. He would constantly blame me all the time 528 00:34:07,954 --> 00:34:09,621 -That I was having an affair with somebody. -Oh. 529 00:34:09,773 --> 00:34:12,198 And then, all of a sudden, now it was jon. 530 00:34:12,292 --> 00:34:15,201 -He was fixated on jon? -Yeah, he decided it was jon. 531 00:34:15,295 --> 00:34:19,372 Why would tim think you were having an affair with jon? 532 00:34:19,466 --> 00:34:21,224 -I mean, was that true? -No. 533 00:34:21,451 --> 00:34:23,802 -So you knew jon maybe a couple of years. -Right. 534 00:34:23,954 --> 00:34:25,954 Uh. Before this incident... 535 00:34:26,047 --> 00:34:28,456 Tell me, what kind of neighbor is jon? 536 00:34:28,475 --> 00:34:31,193 Funny and loving and... 537 00:34:32,905 --> 00:34:35,130 Just always caring about the neighbors, 538 00:34:35,223 --> 00:34:37,816 -That kind of stuff, yeah... -Very helpful, a good... A good citizen? 539 00:34:37,910 --> 00:34:41,152 You know, patti, jon's credibility and character 540 00:34:41,305 --> 00:34:43,471 Are what is at stake at court. 541 00:34:43,565 --> 00:34:46,750 Would you be able to stand up in court, 542 00:34:46,901 --> 00:34:49,978 And say the things that you've told me in front of a jury, 543 00:34:50,071 --> 00:34:53,665 Of a judge... Potentially, tim force? 544 00:34:53,817 --> 00:34:55,926 I don't feel comfortable doing it, but I will do it 545 00:34:56,077 --> 00:34:59,487 Because I'm not watching him do anything to these people. 546 00:34:59,506 --> 00:35:03,416 This is just stupid and ridiculous, this whole thing is... 547 00:35:03,435 --> 00:35:06,678 He's just an evil person and he's gonna get away with a bunch of (bleep) 548 00:35:06,830 --> 00:35:08,421 And that's what it boils down to. 549 00:35:08,515 --> 00:35:13,001 All right, miss force, thank you for coming in this morning. 550 00:35:13,094 --> 00:35:18,690 It's difficult, but you're so critical to jon deneef's defense 551 00:35:18,842 --> 00:35:20,408 That's no problem. Anything I can do to help. 552 00:35:22,012 --> 00:35:23,528 Linda: All right. Winston: She's critical. 553 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,867 Her testimony is damning to that alleged victim 554 00:35:29,019 --> 00:35:32,963 And very supportive of jon's self-defense. 555 00:35:34,691 --> 00:35:35,799 It's indispensable. 556 00:36:03,553 --> 00:36:06,997 Today is a day of substance. 557 00:36:07,148 --> 00:36:10,983 This is our final pretrial. We filed a motion to rule on witnesses, 558 00:36:11,003 --> 00:36:15,063 And we'll see what the state and the judge has to say 559 00:36:15,081 --> 00:36:16,965 About the last minute motions that I filed. 560 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,495 Jon: This morning I woke up and started thinking about the case. 561 00:36:22,514 --> 00:36:25,164 We've been stressed out for so long 562 00:36:25,258 --> 00:36:28,092 And every time we get ready for a hearing of some sort, 563 00:36:28,245 --> 00:36:29,811 I end up worrying and worrying. 564 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,060 There's been some pretty strong movement this morning from the state. 565 00:37:10,287 --> 00:37:11,803 This case isn't going to be dismissed. 566 00:37:11,955 --> 00:37:14,397 But they've come a long way. 567 00:37:15,625 --> 00:37:17,625 Jon doesn't know any about this. 568 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,402 Kathy: There is winston, right there. 569 00:37:21,147 --> 00:37:22,239 Winston: Uh, is that jon? 570 00:37:34,811 --> 00:37:36,068 Winston: All right, jon. 571 00:37:36,088 --> 00:37:38,663 Let me tell you what just happened. 572 00:37:38,815 --> 00:37:42,425 There's been a flurry of activity this morning regarding the case. 573 00:37:43,595 --> 00:37:46,337 The state's attorney has come to me 574 00:37:46,490 --> 00:37:48,098 With a proposal to resolve it. 575 00:37:50,327 --> 00:37:55,513 Basically, jon, 18 months of what I would call probation. 576 00:37:55,665 --> 00:37:58,500 Keep your nose clean. Don't break any laws. 577 00:37:58,518 --> 00:38:01,611 After 18 months, the aggravated battery is taken off the table. 578 00:38:02,522 --> 00:38:04,522 No felony charge. 579 00:38:04,674 --> 00:38:09,527 There would be an order entered, convicting you of reckless conduct, 580 00:38:09,679 --> 00:38:11,579 And that's a class a misdemeanor. 581 00:38:12,365 --> 00:38:14,015 It is not a felony. 582 00:38:14,034 --> 00:38:15,700 You won't have a felony on your record. 583 00:38:15,852 --> 00:38:17,276 Jon: So I can go back to work? 584 00:38:17,296 --> 00:38:19,796 You can go back to wherever you want to go back to, 585 00:38:19,947 --> 00:38:21,631 Whatever job you want. 586 00:38:21,783 --> 00:38:23,875 That's the best outcome I could probably hope for, 587 00:38:23,969 --> 00:38:26,544 -Short of going to trial and having a dismissal... -Mm-hm. 588 00:38:26,638 --> 00:38:28,212 ...At this point. 589 00:38:28,307 --> 00:38:30,365 Winston: And you don't know what would happen in at trial 590 00:38:30,383 --> 00:38:33,701 Cut my losses. I'm not guilty of these charges, 591 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:35,720 -But it's the best way to move on. -There we go. 592 00:38:35,872 --> 00:38:39,390 If we go to trial, I have no idea what the judge is going to say. 593 00:38:39,543 --> 00:38:42,043 Now, I don't have a crystal ball. 594 00:38:42,062 --> 00:38:45,822 We don't know what's going to happen 595 00:38:45,973 --> 00:38:48,325 -Until that signed by the judge. We'll see. -Okay. 596 00:38:53,056 --> 00:38:55,481 Jon: I'll be saying my prayers tonight. 597 00:38:55,500 --> 00:38:59,169 Something could change. I hope that that doesn't happen. 598 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,505 It's almost hard to have that hope that it's finally over. 599 00:39:02,732 --> 00:39:07,344 It's been a long, long... (exhales) long road. 600 00:39:09,681 --> 00:39:12,907 I'm glad it's... It looks like it's over, 601 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,519 But I probably won't feel that sense of relief until the judge says so. 602 00:39:35,265 --> 00:39:37,540 Winston: You know, this is a complicated 603 00:39:37,692 --> 00:39:40,451 Resolution to a complicated case. 604 00:39:40,604 --> 00:39:44,363 We've worked this case with our investigator and our witnesses, 605 00:39:44,457 --> 00:39:48,943 And we gathered enough evidence to fill in the gap 606 00:39:48,962 --> 00:39:52,947 Of why did this explosion take place that night amongst friends? 607 00:39:52,966 --> 00:39:54,298 Winston: Exactly. 608 00:39:54,393 --> 00:39:56,451 But we've still got to get the judge on board. 609 00:39:56,469 --> 00:39:58,061 You know, nathan, 610 00:39:58,212 --> 00:40:02,899 These types of offers are never given for violent crimes. 611 00:40:03,126 --> 00:40:06,069 And we all admit, this was a violent crime. 612 00:40:06,220 --> 00:40:08,571 The photographs, the amount of blood. 613 00:40:08,723 --> 00:40:12,725 Any judge would have significant questions about this. 614 00:40:12,744 --> 00:40:17,822 It's good that we've gotten the prosecution down to our position, 615 00:40:17,916 --> 00:40:21,418 But we're still going to have to be prepared 616 00:40:21,569 --> 00:40:24,587 To convince the judge this is the appropriate thing to do. 617 00:40:24,814 --> 00:40:28,258 If the judge rejects this disposition... 618 00:40:30,003 --> 00:40:32,820 Where does that leave us? We're back to trial, right? 619 00:40:32,914 --> 00:40:34,556 Winston: We are back to trial. 620 00:40:48,188 --> 00:40:49,946 Jon: I'll take all my creature comforts. 621 00:40:50,173 --> 00:40:51,448 Kathy: I've got everything I need. 622 00:41:00,033 --> 00:41:02,125 Jon: Today, the judge looks at the agreement 623 00:41:02,276 --> 00:41:04,109 And then either approves or disapproves. 624 00:41:04,129 --> 00:41:05,611 So the judge could look at this, 625 00:41:05,630 --> 00:41:08,022 And decide she doesn't like it 626 00:41:08,041 --> 00:41:10,133 And everything could change. 627 00:41:15,215 --> 00:41:20,125 These kind of negotiated pleas are reserved for nonviolent offenses, 628 00:41:20,145 --> 00:41:22,386 And this is a violent offense. 629 00:41:22,539 --> 00:41:24,147 I'm feeling a little nervous. 630 00:41:26,059 --> 00:41:28,985 It's been two years, and it's all coming down to this morning. 631 00:41:58,575 --> 00:41:59,682 Okay. 632 00:42:00,835 --> 00:42:02,352 Winston: There it is. 633 00:42:06,173 --> 00:42:09,917 Jon: Appreciate everything. Appreciate everything. 634 00:42:09,936 --> 00:42:12,529 -Now, don't do this again. -I ain't. (laughing) 635 00:42:14,774 --> 00:42:17,158 Jon: The judge has signed it. So now it's all on me again. 636 00:42:18,519 --> 00:42:21,538 I'm relieved. Still feels numb, really. 637 00:42:21,689 --> 00:42:23,856 I'm happy that it's over 638 00:42:23,950 --> 00:42:26,117 I was worried to death that I was going to be locked up 639 00:42:26,211 --> 00:42:28,603 And she was going to have to fend for herself. 640 00:42:28,621 --> 00:42:31,047 At least I know I'm going to be there by her side now.