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This programme contains descriptions
and discussions of murder which
some viewers may find upsetting
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This programme contains descriptions
and discussions of murder which
some viewers may find upsetting
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This programme contains descriptions
and discussions of murder which
some viewers may find upsetting
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Hello there. Hi.
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I'm doing some investigation
into a historic murder
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I'm doing some investigation
into a historic murder
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I'm doing some investigation
into a historic murder
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of a young woman called
Janine Downes in 1991.
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of a young woman called
Janine Downes in 1991.
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Does that face, that name
mean anything to you?
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Does that face, that name
mean anything to you?
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She was a sex worker, but her body
was found some 13 miles away
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She was a sex worker, but her body
was found some 13 miles away
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She was a sex worker, but her body
was found some 13 miles away
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in Shifnal in a lay-by. No.
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in Shifnal in a lay-by. No.
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I've heard the name,
but I don't recognise the face.
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I've heard the name,
but I don't recognise the face.
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This is the lay-by
where Janine was found?
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This is the lay-by
where Janine was found?
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Yeah. Off the A464 near Shifnal
in Shropshire.
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Yeah. Off the A464 near Shifnal
in Shropshire.
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When was the body found? And by who?
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When was the body found? And by who?
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A couple found her body at nine
o'clock in the morning
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A couple found her body at nine
o'clock in the morning
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of Saturday, 2nd February, 1991.
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of Saturday, 2nd February, 1991.
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of Saturday, 2nd February, 1991.
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Although it became clear
that she had been murdered
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Although it became clear
that she had been murdered
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sometime between midnight
and four o'clock that morning.
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sometime between midnight
and four o'clock that morning.
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Do we know exactly
where the body was found?Yeah.
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Do we know exactly
where the body was found?Yeah.
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There's a very good police
photograph from the time.
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There's a very good police
photograph from the time.
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She was semi-naked.
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She had been strangled,
sexually assaulted and beaten.
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She had been strangled,
sexually assaulted and beaten.
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She had been strangled,
sexually assaulted and beaten.
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The body hadn't been concealed.
It hadn't been buried.
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The body hadn't been concealed.
It hadn't been buried.
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It hadn't been hidden.
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And were there any suspects
for the murder?
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There have been a number of people
who've been arrested over the years,
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There have been a number of people
who've been arrested over the years,
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but no-one has ever been charged
with Janine's murder.
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but no-one has ever been charged
with Janine's murder.
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I know you teach in Birmingham.
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Is that how you found out
about Janine's case?
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Is that how you found out
about Janine's case?
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Yeah. And as you know,
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I teach and research and write about
violent crime,
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I teach and research and write about
violent crime,
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especially about murder
and serial murder.
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especially about murder
and serial murder.
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She was a sex worker,
and, of course,
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She was a sex worker,
and, of course,
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they are one of the most
at-risk groups of being attacked.
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they are one of the most
at-risk groups of being attacked.
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they are one of the most
at-risk groups of being attacked.
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And I suppose I would still like
to see if we could get justice
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And I suppose I would still like
to see if we could get justice
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for Janine
and for her surviving family.
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for Janine
and for her surviving family.
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And what do we know about her?
Well, actually, precious little.
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And what do we know about her?
Well, actually, precious little.
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We know that she was 22 years old.
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We know that she was 22 years old.
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She was a single mum
of three children.
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She was a single mum
of three children.
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Her youngest child
was only six months old
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Her youngest child
was only six months old
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when she was murdered.
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Was she connected to this area?
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No. She sold sexual services in the
All Saints area of Wolverhampton.
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No. She sold sexual services in the
All Saints area of Wolverhampton.
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No. She sold sexual services in the
All Saints area of Wolverhampton.
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So we're struggling for information
on this occasion.
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So we're struggling for information
on this occasion.
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We're going to need to divide up
our efforts, I think, on this one.
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We're going to need to divide up
our efforts, I think, on this one.
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We're going to need to divide up
our efforts, I think, on this one.
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I can talk to contacts I've got
in the West Midlands area.
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I can talk to contacts I've got
in the West Midlands area.
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I can talk to contacts I've got
in the West Midlands area.
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Well, I can go to the local archives
and do some research
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Well, I can go to the local archives
and do some research
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on Janine's case
and try and get a fuller picture
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on Janine's case
and try and get a fuller picture
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about what she was like as a person.
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I've got in touch with some contacts
from the West Midlands.
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I've got in touch with some contacts
from the West Midlands.
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Did you find anything?
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So one of the articles I found
in the archives
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So one of the articles I found
in the archives
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is from a 2011 edition,
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and it's an interview that Janine's
72-year-old father gave.
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and it's an interview that Janine's
72-year-old father gave.
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and it's an interview that Janine's
72-year-old father gave.
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It's heartbreaking, really.
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It says that Janine's mother died
when Janine was only nine years old,
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It says that Janine's mother died
when Janine was only nine years old,
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It says that Janine's mother died
when Janine was only nine years old,
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and her dad says that Janine
only did what she did
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and her dad says that Janine
only did what she did
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to make ends meet to feed
her three young children.
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to make ends meet to feed
her three young children.
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Gosh, that's so sad, isn't it?
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Gosh, that's so sad, isn't it?
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Listen, I think I'm having some luck
with tracking down
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Listen, I think I'm having some luck
with tracking down
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a friend of Janine's from the time.
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a friend of Janine's from the time.
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Is there anything else
in the article?
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She also wrote a letter to her dad,
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She also wrote a letter to her dad,
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and this is what the letter says.
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and this is what the letter says.
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"Dear Dad, how are you?
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"Dear Dad, how are you?
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"You probably don't want
to know me any more, but still.
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"You probably don't want
to know me any more, but still.
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"I know you don't agree with what
I've been doing,
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"I know you don't agree with what
I've been doing,
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"only I've had money problems.
I don't do it any more, Dad.
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"only I've had money problems.
I don't do it any more, Dad.
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"I've realised how stupid I've been,
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"and I know how ashamed
you all must be.
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"and I know how ashamed
you all must be.
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"I haven't been to visit you
because I've heard
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"I haven't been to visit you
because I've heard
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"that you're very angry with me.
I can't blame you, though.
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"that you're very angry with me.
I can't blame you, though.
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"I'm always thinking of you, Dad.
I love you a lot.
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"I'm always thinking of you, Dad.
I love you a lot.
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"Anyway, I'm going to sign off now.
"Your loving daughter, Janine."
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"Anyway, I'm going to sign off now.
"Your loving daughter, Janine."
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"Anyway, I'm going to sign off now.
"Your loving daughter, Janine."
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And her dad never got to
speak to her. So sad.
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And her dad never got to
speak to her. So sad.
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I found a witness -
apparently one of the last people
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I found a witness -
apparently one of the last people
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to see Janine alive -
and she is prepared to talk.
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to see Janine alive -
and she is prepared to talk.
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to see Janine alive -
and she is prepared to talk.
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But she's scared,
and she's moved away from the area,
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But she's scared,
and she's moved away from the area,
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and she doesn't want to be
identified on camera.
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and she doesn't want to be
identified on camera.
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But she's agreed that we can
pick her up just down the road.
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But she's agreed that we can
pick her up just down the road.
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Janine had a small build,
hadn't she?
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Janine had a small build,
hadn't she?
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Yes, just five foot tall
and only 8st, apparently.
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Yes, just five foot tall
and only 8st, apparently.
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So she might not have been
very difficult to overpower. No.
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So she might not have been
very difficult to overpower. No.
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Maybe her friend Mandy can shed some
light on the night of the murder.
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Maybe her friend Mandy can shed some
light on the night of the murder.
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Mandy, thank you for talking to us.
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That's all right.
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Take a left up here.
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{\an8}This is the route that me and Janine
used to make on a night-time.
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{\an8}This is the route that me and Janine
used to make on a night-time.
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{\an8}This is the route that me and Janine
used to make on a night-time.
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It brings back a lot of memories.
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So you knew Janine.
Can you tell us what she was like?
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So you knew Janine.
Can you tell us what she was like?
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She was lovely. She was funny,
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She was lovely. She was funny,
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and she weren't scared of anything.
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That's why I felt safe with her.
How did you meet her?
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That's why I felt safe with her.
How did you meet her?
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It was in a hostel.
She was already there,
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It was in a hostel.
She was already there,
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and I was put there
because I had nowhere to live,
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and I was put there
because I had nowhere to live,
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and we just got talking.
We'd just laugh at anything.
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and we just got talking.
We'd just laugh at anything.
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and we just got talking.
We'd just laugh at anything.
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She was my best friend.
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And how old were you?16 or 17.
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And how old were you?16 or 17.
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We used to go out to work
about eight o'clock on the night.
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We used to go out to work
about eight o'clock on the night.
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We was just used to go and work
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and take all the money back
to the pimps.
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and take all the money back
to the pimps.
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We're coming up to it. I'm sweating.
Are you all right?
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We're coming up to it. I'm sweating.
Are you all right?
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Yeah. Are you sure?Yeah.
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This is the red-light area. Mm-hm.
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It was always
this industrial estate.
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It was always
this industrial estate.
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Every corner that you'd go,
you'd see girls and women there.
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Every corner that you'd go,
you'd see girls and women there.
199
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This is the Harp pub.
The last place I was with Janine.
200
00:08:57,510 --> 00:08:59,510
This is the Harp pub.
The last place I was with Janine.
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This is the Harp pub.
The last place I was with Janine.
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00:09:00,270 --> 00:09:02,270
Can you explain what happened
on the night that she disappears?
203
00:09:02,310 --> 00:09:04,310
Can you explain what happened
on the night that she disappears?
204
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Can you explain what happened
on the night that she disappears?
205
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We was working.
We'd had a few customers.
206
00:09:06,750 --> 00:09:08,550
We was working.
We'd had a few customers.
207
00:09:08,590 --> 00:09:10,590
Janine would go with a client,
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Janine would go with a client,
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I'd stay there waiting
for her to come back,
210
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I'd stay there waiting
for her to come back,
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00:09:14,830 --> 00:09:16,830
and when she come back,
I'd get a client.
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and when she come back,
I'd get a client.
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So we thought it was safe.
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It was near this door,
by the bollards.
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00:09:22,230 --> 00:09:22,630
It was near this door,
by the bollards.
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00:09:24,270 --> 00:09:26,270
A dark blue car turned up.
It was a long car,
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00:09:26,310 --> 00:09:27,590
A dark blue car turned up.
It was a long car,
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you know like the old Volvo?
He's put the window down.
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you know like the old Volvo?
He's put the window down.
220
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you know like the old Volvo?
He's put the window down.
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I'd never seen him before.
222
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I'd never seen him before.
223
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Me and Janine was stood
side by side.
224
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Me and Janine was stood
side by side.
225
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I asked him if he wanted business.
He went, "I don't want you."
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I asked him if he wanted business.
He went, "I don't want you."
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He went, "I want her."
Why do you think he wanted Janine?
228
00:09:42,470 --> 00:09:43,590
He went, "I want her."
Why do you think he wanted Janine?
229
00:09:43,630 --> 00:09:45,630
I think it was
because Janine was smaller than me.
230
00:09:45,670 --> 00:09:46,950
I think it was
because Janine was smaller than me.
231
00:09:46,990 --> 00:09:48,990
She was tiny. I suppose it was
a childlike frame, wasn't it?
232
00:09:49,030 --> 00:09:51,030
She was tiny. I suppose it was
a childlike frame, wasn't it?
233
00:09:51,070 --> 00:09:51,430
She was tiny. I suppose it was
a childlike frame, wasn't it?
234
00:09:51,470 --> 00:09:52,470
For some of them.
235
00:09:53,910 --> 00:09:55,910
What sort of time was this?
Between nine and half past nine.
236
00:09:55,950 --> 00:09:57,950
What sort of time was this?
Between nine and half past nine.
237
00:09:57,990 --> 00:09:58,470
What sort of time was this?
Between nine and half past nine.
238
00:09:58,510 --> 00:10:00,030
He's pulled up there
239
00:10:00,070 --> 00:10:02,070
and then she's gone off
down this way, I think.
240
00:10:02,110 --> 00:10:02,950
and then she's gone off
down this way, I think.
241
00:10:02,990 --> 00:10:04,990
Were you there expecting her
to come back here?Yeah.
242
00:10:05,030 --> 00:10:06,150
Were you there expecting her
to come back here?Yeah.
243
00:10:06,190 --> 00:10:08,190
I never went with another punter.
244
00:10:08,230 --> 00:10:08,470
I never went with another punter.
245
00:10:08,510 --> 00:10:10,510
I just waited there
for her to come back.
246
00:10:10,550 --> 00:10:11,550
I just waited there
for her to come back.
247
00:10:11,590 --> 00:10:13,590
I waited for her till about half 11,
and she never come back.
248
00:10:13,630 --> 00:10:15,270
I waited for her till about half 11,
and she never come back.
249
00:10:17,550 --> 00:10:19,550
I was the last person to see Janine.
250
00:10:19,590 --> 00:10:20,150
I was the last person to see Janine.
251
00:10:20,190 --> 00:10:22,190
She wasn't seen after that night.
She was took from here.
252
00:10:22,230 --> 00:10:23,310
She wasn't seen after that night.
She was took from here.
253
00:10:24,470 --> 00:10:26,470
How do you feel being
back outside the Harp pub?
254
00:10:26,510 --> 00:10:27,430
How do you feel being
back outside the Harp pub?
255
00:10:27,470 --> 00:10:29,470
Lump in my throat.
256
00:10:29,510 --> 00:10:29,750
Lump in my throat.
257
00:10:29,790 --> 00:10:31,790
Painful just looking at it,
because it haunts me all the time.
258
00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:33,390
Painful just looking at it,
because it haunts me all the time.
259
00:10:33,430 --> 00:10:35,430
It really does.
And I do feel really guilty.
260
00:10:35,470 --> 00:10:36,350
It really does.
And I do feel really guilty.
261
00:10:38,790 --> 00:10:40,790
But if I could just have an hour
with her, like, and talk to her.
262
00:10:40,830 --> 00:10:42,830
But if I could just have an hour
with her, like, and talk to her.
263
00:10:42,870 --> 00:10:43,190
But if I could just have an hour
with her, like, and talk to her.
264
00:10:43,230 --> 00:10:45,230
What would you say?
That I miss her, and I'm sorry.
265
00:10:45,270 --> 00:10:46,670
What would you say?
That I miss her, and I'm sorry.
266
00:10:46,710 --> 00:10:48,710
Why are you sorry?
Because it wasn't me.
267
00:10:48,750 --> 00:10:49,950
Why are you sorry?
Because it wasn't me.
268
00:10:49,990 --> 00:10:51,990
I didn't have children then.
She did.
269
00:10:52,030 --> 00:10:52,790
I didn't have children then.
She did.
270
00:10:52,830 --> 00:10:54,830
But I do miss her.
She was my leaning post. Yeah.
271
00:10:54,870 --> 00:10:56,790
But I do miss her.
She was my leaning post. Yeah.
272
00:10:56,830 --> 00:10:58,830
And the police did say whoever
did it, they was angry at her.
273
00:10:58,870 --> 00:11:00,870
And the police did say whoever
did it, they was angry at her.
274
00:11:00,910 --> 00:11:01,190
And the police did say whoever
did it, they was angry at her.
275
00:11:01,230 --> 00:11:03,230
She didn't stand a chance,
because they battered her.
276
00:11:03,270 --> 00:11:04,430
She didn't stand a chance,
because they battered her.
277
00:11:04,470 --> 00:11:06,350
She didn't deserve that.
278
00:11:06,390 --> 00:11:08,390
She was murdered
with so much violence.
279
00:11:08,430 --> 00:11:09,550
She was murdered
with so much violence.
280
00:11:11,870 --> 00:11:13,510
But who would want to do that?
281
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,360
Mils. Come and have a listen
to this judge's ruling from 2023.
282
00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,400
Mils. Come and have a listen
to this judge's ruling from 2023.
283
00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,440
Mils. Come and have a listen
to this judge's ruling from 2023.
284
00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:52,720
Mils. Come and have a listen
to this judge's ruling from 2023.
285
00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:54,400
Listen to what she says.
286
00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,440
In December 1993, you murdered
a woman by manually strangling her.
287
00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,480
In December 1993, you murdered
a woman by manually strangling her.
288
00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,160
In December 1993, you murdered
a woman by manually strangling her.
289
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,200
In March 1994,
you murdered another female,
290
00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:03,360
In March 1994,
you murdered another female,
291
00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,400
strangling her with a cord
from her hooded top.
292
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:06,280
strangling her with a cord
from her hooded top.
293
00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,320
You had a history
of killing two women
294
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:08,600
You had a history
of killing two women
295
00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:10,640
and inflicting very serious violence
296
00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:10,920
and inflicting very serious violence
297
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:12,960
and sexual violence
on a third woman.
298
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:13,720
and sexual violence
on a third woman.
299
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,760
You still pose a significant risk
300
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:16,400
You still pose a significant risk
301
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,440
to members of the public
of serious harm.
302
00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:19,680
to members of the public
of serious harm.
303
00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,720
So this relates to a historic rape
committed on a young boy.
304
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:23,760
So this relates to a historic rape
committed on a young boy.
305
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,440
So this relates to a historic rape
committed on a young boy.
306
00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,480
Now, that offender
is called Alun Kyte.
307
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:28,480
Now, that offender
is called Alun Kyte.
308
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,520
But mention was made of two women
that he murders.
309
00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:32,480
But mention was made of two women
that he murders.
310
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,520
Now those two women were Samo Paull
and Tracey Turner.
311
00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:36,560
Now those two women were Samo Paull
and Tracey Turner.
312
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:37,360
Now those two women were Samo Paull
and Tracey Turner.
313
00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,400
1993, 1994,
314
00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:39,760
1993, 1994,
315
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:41,800
so a couple of years after
the murder of Janine Downes.
316
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:43,840
so a couple of years after
the murder of Janine Downes.
317
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:44,560
so a couple of years after
the murder of Janine Downes.
318
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,600
Samo and Tracey were sex workers
in the Midlands,
319
00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:48,640
Samo and Tracey were sex workers
in the Midlands,
320
00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:50,080
Samo and Tracey were sex workers
in the Midlands,
321
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,120
and prior to Kyte's conviction,
322
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:53,080
and prior to Kyte's conviction,
323
00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,120
there was a lot of media speculation
that sex workers
324
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,120
there was a lot of media speculation
that sex workers
325
00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,160
in the West Midlands
were being targeted by
326
00:12:59,200 --> 00:12:59,920
in the West Midlands
were being targeted by
327
00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:01,960
a serial killer called
the Midlands Ripper.
328
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:03,760
a serial killer called
the Midlands Ripper.
329
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,440
Oh, I found articles about
330
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,480
the Midlands Ripper
in the archives. Here.
331
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:08,840
the Midlands Ripper
in the archives. Here.
332
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,160
Ah. And this is Alun Kyte.
He's a differentiated offender,
333
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,200
Ah. And this is Alun Kyte.
He's a differentiated offender,
334
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,240
Ah. And this is Alun Kyte.
He's a differentiated offender,
335
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:17,560
Ah. And this is Alun Kyte.
He's a differentiated offender,
336
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,600
so he's convicted of the murders of
two women, Samo and Tracey,
337
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,640
so he's convicted of the murders of
two women, Samo and Tracey,
338
00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:22,120
so he's convicted of the murders of
two women, Samo and Tracey,
339
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,160
and was also being given a sentence
for the rape of a boy.
340
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:25,600
and was also being given a sentence
for the rape of a boy.
341
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,640
But what I also noticed
was that the MO
342
00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:29,040
But what I also noticed
was that the MO
343
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,080
of the murders of the two women
344
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:31,520
of the murders of the two women
345
00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:33,560
was not dissimilar
to what happened to Janine.
346
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,040
was not dissimilar
to what happened to Janine.
347
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,080
That's absolutely right.
348
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:37,320
That's absolutely right.
349
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,360
They had all been strangled
350
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:39,840
They had all been strangled
351
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:41,880
miles from the place
where they were dumped.
352
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:42,680
miles from the place
where they were dumped.
353
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:44,720
And indeed, in the 1990s, the NCIS,
354
00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:46,640
And indeed, in the 1990s, the NCIS,
355
00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:48,680
the National Criminal
Intelligence Services,
356
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:49,040
the National Criminal
Intelligence Services,
357
00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,080
grouped together those two murders
with the murder of Janine Downes.
358
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,120
grouped together those two murders
with the murder of Janine Downes.
359
00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:54,600
grouped together those two murders
with the murder of Janine Downes.
360
00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:56,640
So he is definitely someone
that we should be looking into.
361
00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:58,400
So he is definitely someone
that we should be looking into.
362
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,200
I've tracked down
a former detective inspector
363
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:08,840
I've tracked down
a former detective inspector
364
00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:10,880
who worked on the Alun Kyte case.
365
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:11,360
who worked on the Alun Kyte case.
366
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,040
Perhaps he can clarify things
for us.
367
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:15,320
Perhaps he can clarify things
for us.
368
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:16,960
There you go, Mick.
369
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,960
So how did you get involved
in the Alun Kyte case?
370
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,000
So how did you get involved
in the Alun Kyte case?
371
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:23,600
So how did you get involved
in the Alun Kyte case?
372
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,640
{\an8}I knew of the two murders Alun Kyte
was later convicted of,
373
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:26,480
{\an8}I knew of the two murders Alun Kyte
was later convicted of,
374
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,520
which was Samo Paull
in December '93,
375
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,560
Tracey Turner in March '94.
Tracey had been raped.
376
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,200
Tracey Turner in March '94.
Tracey had been raped.
377
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:33,600
The DNA sample was taken,
378
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,640
but it didn't get us anywhere at
the time, which was a frustration.
379
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,680
but it didn't get us anywhere at
the time, which was a frustration.
380
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:38,280
but it didn't get us anywhere at
the time, which was a frustration.
381
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:39,760
Then in December '97,
382
00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,800
Alun Kyte raped another girl
in Weston-super-Mare.
383
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:42,480
Alun Kyte raped another girl
in Weston-super-Mare.
384
00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,320
Avon and Somerset police
got there very quickly
385
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,360
and they arrested him
as he tried to escape,
386
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:46,680
and they arrested him
as he tried to escape,
387
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:48,720
and that gave us the opportunity
to get a DNA hit,
388
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:49,040
and that gave us the opportunity
to get a DNA hit,
389
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,080
which was a link
to Tracey Turner's murder.
390
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:51,560
which was a link
to Tracey Turner's murder.
391
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,320
Yeah. There were
so many similarities
392
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,360
in terms of abduction, about
where the bodies were left.
393
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,000
in terms of abduction, about
where the bodies were left.
394
00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,040
This is only 13, 14 years on
since Peter Sutcliffe, you know,
395
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:00,360
This is only 13, 14 years on
since Peter Sutcliffe, you know,
396
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,280
who killed so many women.
397
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,320
And the concern was, we don't know
398
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:04,880
And the concern was, we don't know
399
00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:06,920
if there's another Peter Sutcliffe
in this country.
400
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:07,480
if there's another Peter Sutcliffe
in this country.
401
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,320
You've met Kyte,
you've watched interviews.
402
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:12,000
You've met Kyte,
you've watched interviews.
403
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,040
What was he like?
He's inadequate in many ways.
404
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:14,880
What was he like?
He's inadequate in many ways.
405
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:16,920
He's a small guy. He's arrogant.
He puffs his chest out.
406
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:18,960
He's a small guy. He's arrogant.
He puffs his chest out.
407
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:19,280
He's a small guy. He's arrogant.
He puffs his chest out.
408
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,320
He thinks he's a bigger man
than he is.
409
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:21,680
He thinks he's a bigger man
than he is.
410
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,720
On top of that, he's manipulative.
He's a misogynist. He's violent.
411
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,320
On top of that, he's manipulative.
He's a misogynist. He's violent.
412
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,360
He doesn't accept any responsibility
for what he does.
413
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:28,520
He doesn't accept any responsibility
for what he does.
414
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,560
He's got to be
the most dangerous level of
415
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:30,880
He's got to be
the most dangerous level of
416
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:32,920
the people that we deal with.
What did you discern from the MO
417
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:34,960
the people that we deal with.
What did you discern from the MO
418
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:35,560
the people that we deal with.
What did you discern from the MO
419
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,600
that Kyte uses in both murders?
420
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:38,240
that Kyte uses in both murders?
421
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,280
There are distinct similarities
between the two murders.
422
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:41,600
There are distinct similarities
between the two murders.
423
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,640
He strangles by ligature
but he also attacks with a knife.
424
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,680
He strangles by ligature
but he also attacks with a knife.
425
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:45,960
He strangles by ligature
but he also attacks with a knife.
426
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:47,520
He also steals.
427
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,440
He would take trophies
from the victims
428
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,480
and will actually drive them
across the whole Midlands
429
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:52,520
and will actually drive them
across the whole Midlands
430
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:54,560
and leave them abandoned and dumped.
431
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:54,840
and leave them abandoned and dumped.
432
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:56,880
So Samo and Tracey's bodies
were deposited
433
00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:57,920
So Samo and Tracey's bodies
were deposited
434
00:15:57,960 --> 00:15:59,960
in the Leicestershire area.
435
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:00,240
in the Leicestershire area.
436
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,280
I'm interested
in the Janine Downes case.
437
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:03,200
I'm interested
in the Janine Downes case.
438
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,240
She went missing
in the Wolverhampton area.
439
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:06,160
She went missing
in the Wolverhampton area.
440
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,200
Does that rule Kyte out? No.
He's completely transient.
441
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,240
Does that rule Kyte out? No.
He's completely transient.
442
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:10,920
Does that rule Kyte out? No.
He's completely transient.
443
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:12,960
He would move from place to place
using the motorway network.
444
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:14,120
He would move from place to place
using the motorway network.
445
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,160
He knew it very well.
Janine Downes - physically slight,
446
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,160
He knew it very well.
Janine Downes - physically slight,
447
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,200
so like Samo Paull.
Strangled, stripped naked.
448
00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,240
so like Samo Paull.
Strangled, stripped naked.
449
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:22,680
so like Samo Paull.
Strangled, stripped naked.
450
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,720
Does the MO fit, Mick?
My memory of Janine Downes
451
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:25,920
Does the MO fit, Mick?
My memory of Janine Downes
452
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:27,640
was exactly as you described -
453
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,680
abducted, found
in a different location.
454
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:31,280
abducted, found
in a different location.
455
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,320
Strangulation by ligature from
the rear.
456
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:33,600
Strangulation by ligature from
the rear.
457
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,560
That's exactly what Tracey had.
458
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,600
The theft of clothing,
starts to get more interesting.
459
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:38,680
The theft of clothing,
starts to get more interesting.
460
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,720
So there's a lot of similarities.
We're still looking at her murder.
461
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:42,760
So there's a lot of similarities.
We're still looking at her murder.
462
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:43,040
So there's a lot of similarities.
We're still looking at her murder.
463
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,080
It's unsolved. Would that imply that
464
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:45,960
It's unsolved. Would that imply that
465
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,000
there just really wasn't any DNA
at the crime scene?
466
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,040
there just really wasn't any DNA
at the crime scene?
467
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:50,320
there just really wasn't any DNA
at the crime scene?
468
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:51,720
I would assume they've gone back
469
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,760
and looked at every single exhibit
that's been recovered,
470
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:54,760
and looked at every single exhibit
that's been recovered,
471
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,800
and they've looked at
the forensic opportunities.
472
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:57,520
and they've looked at
the forensic opportunities.
473
00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,560
If there's nothing to go on,
you can't go on it.
474
00:16:59,600 --> 00:16:59,840
If there's nothing to go on,
you can't go on it.
475
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,680
And so, in the case of Janine,
476
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,720
I can only assume
that there is nothing available.
477
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:04,240
I can only assume
that there is nothing available.
478
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,720
Mick, could Alun Kyte have murdered
Janine Downes?
479
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:10,400
Mick, could Alun Kyte have murdered
Janine Downes?
480
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,440
Without question. If you look at
the nature of Janine's death,
481
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,480
Without question. If you look at
the nature of Janine's death,
482
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:15,640
Without question. If you look at
the nature of Janine's death,
483
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,680
there are huge similarities.
Question is, do we know?
484
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,360
there are huge similarities.
Question is, do we know?
485
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,400
We don't. Because you need evidence.
You need fact.
486
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:22,440
We don't. Because you need evidence.
You need fact.
487
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,480
But if your question to me is could
he have, yes, of course he could.
488
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:25,640
But if your question to me is could
he have, yes, of course he could.
489
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,760
Mick Creedon's still convinced
that Alun Kyte
490
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:44,480
Mick Creedon's still convinced
that Alun Kyte
491
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,520
is a really good suspect
in Janine's murder,
492
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:47,120
is a really good suspect
in Janine's murder,
493
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,160
but there just isn't any evidence
that can connect him.
494
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:50,160
but there just isn't any evidence
that can connect him.
495
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,600
Would it be worth showing
a photo of Kyte to Mandy to see
496
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:55,600
Would it be worth showing
a photo of Kyte to Mandy to see
497
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,120
if she might recognise him
498
00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,160
as the man who picked Janine up
in the blue car?Good idea.
499
00:17:59,200 --> 00:17:59,920
as the man who picked Janine up
in the blue car?Good idea.
500
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,640
Hi, Mandy.
Thanks for seeing me again.
501
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:12,000
Hi, Mandy.
Thanks for seeing me again.
502
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,040
And I'm sorry it's so late,
but I have one question to ask.
503
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,080
And I'm sorry it's so late,
but I have one question to ask.
504
00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:17,680
And I'm sorry it's so late,
but I have one question to ask.
505
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,320
Is this the man that was driving
the long blue car
506
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:23,360
Is this the man that was driving
the long blue car
507
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:23,920
Is this the man that was driving
the long blue car
508
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:25,960
that Janine got into
that night back in 1991?
509
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,000
that Janine got into
that night back in 1991?
510
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:28,680
that Janine got into
that night back in 1991?
511
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,720
Take your time. Take your time.
512
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:31,400
Take your time. Take your time.
513
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,600
No. No, not at all.
514
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:35,320
No. No, not at all.
515
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,760
That's not the man
that pulled up that night.
516
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:39,320
That's not the man
that pulled up that night.
517
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:41,360
You're sure? Yeah.
The police have asked me that.
518
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:42,280
You're sure? Yeah.
The police have asked me that.
519
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,320
I didn't get a good look at him,
but that's not him.
520
00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:45,080
I didn't get a good look at him,
but that's not him.
521
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:46,960
OK, thanks.
522
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,440
Mandy is sure that Alun Kyte
523
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:01,720
Mandy is sure that Alun Kyte
524
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,760
wasn't the man who picked
Janine up that night.
525
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:05,000
wasn't the man who picked
Janine up that night.
526
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:06,280
So where do we go from here?
527
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,600
I think we need to speak
to Graham Hill,
528
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:10,920
I think we need to speak
to Graham Hill,
529
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:12,960
ex senior detective
who's led murder investigations.
530
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:13,960
ex senior detective
who's led murder investigations.
531
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,320
Let's see what advice he might have.
532
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,640
Mandy didn't recognise
the photograph
533
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:22,320
Mandy didn't recognise
the photograph
534
00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:24,120
that I showed her of Alun Kyte
535
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,160
as being the man
that's driving the blue car
536
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:27,760
as being the man
that's driving the blue car
537
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,800
on the night
that Janine disappears.
538
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:30,960
on the night
that Janine disappears.
539
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,000
So does that rule Kyte out
as far as you're concerned?
540
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:34,240
So does that rule Kyte out
as far as you're concerned?
541
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,280
Well, I don't think it rules him
out. The interesting thing is
542
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:37,120
Well, I don't think it rules him
out. The interesting thing is
543
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,160
that the pathologist
had Janine's time of death
544
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:40,160
that the pathologist
had Janine's time of death
545
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,200
somewhere between midnight and 4am.
546
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:42,760
somewhere between midnight and 4am.
547
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,800
We've got Mandy saying
that she saw Janine drive off
548
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,240
We've got Mandy saying
that she saw Janine drive off
549
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,280
with a man that she spoke to briefly
at around 9.30,
550
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,320
with a man that she spoke to briefly
at around 9.30,
551
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:50,760
with a man that she spoke to briefly
at around 9.30,
552
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,800
and that she then left that vicinity
at around 11.30.
553
00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:54,800
and that she then left that vicinity
at around 11.30.
554
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:56,840
Yeah. So it's conceivable
that Janine came back to
555
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,800
Yeah. So it's conceivable
that Janine came back to
556
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,840
that particular area
and was then picked up by Kyte.
557
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,440
that particular area
and was then picked up by Kyte.
558
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,480
So that still leaves
a window of opportunity
559
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:04,920
So that still leaves
a window of opportunity
560
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:06,960
for Janine to have been picked up
by him or someone else.
561
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,640
for Janine to have been picked up
by him or someone else.
562
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,680
Yeah.And that's consistent with
what the pathologist tells us.
563
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,320
Yeah.And that's consistent with
what the pathologist tells us.
564
00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:14,360
In what way?Are we to believe
that he picked her up at 9.30,
565
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,000
In what way?Are we to believe
that he picked her up at 9.30,
566
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,040
drove around for 2.5 hours
before he killed her?
567
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:19,360
drove around for 2.5 hours
before he killed her?
568
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,400
Mm-hm?That doesn't seem feasible.
569
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:21,680
Mm-hm?That doesn't seem feasible.
570
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,520
It's more likely he would have
picked her up
571
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:25,120
and then killed her quite quickly.
572
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,160
Because how would he control her
within the vehicle?
573
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:28,040
Because how would he control her
within the vehicle?
574
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,080
So would Kyte still be
a person of interest to you?
575
00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:30,920
So would Kyte still be
a person of interest to you?
576
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:32,960
Oh, absolutely.
This guy's got it all going on
577
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:34,120
Oh, absolutely.
This guy's got it all going on
578
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,160
in terms of an offender.
You've got to go back in time
579
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:37,120
in terms of an offender.
You've got to go back in time
580
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,160
and look at what the National
Criminal Intelligence Service NCIS
581
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,200
and look at what the National
Criminal Intelligence Service NCIS
582
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:41,520
and look at what the National
Criminal Intelligence Service NCIS
583
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:42,960
did in the early '90s.
584
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,000
They linked the murders
of Tracey Turner
585
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:45,320
They linked the murders
of Tracey Turner
586
00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:47,360
and Samo Paull
with Janine's murder,
587
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:48,800
and Samo Paull
with Janine's murder,
588
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:50,840
and they would have done that using
a very strong linking criteria.
589
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,880
and they would have done that using
a very strong linking criteria.
590
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:53,520
and they would have done that using
a very strong linking criteria.
591
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,560
What would examples
of linking criteria be?
592
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:55,920
What would examples
of linking criteria be?
593
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,960
Body deposition site,
method of abduction,
594
00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:59,320
Body deposition site,
method of abduction,
595
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:01,360
how the person was killed.
596
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:01,680
how the person was killed.
597
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:03,720
But there doesn't seem to be
any physical evidence
598
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:04,120
But there doesn't seem to be
any physical evidence
599
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,160
to link Alun Kyte
with Janine Downes.
600
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:07,000
to link Alun Kyte
with Janine Downes.
601
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,040
He was never charged
and convicted of that murder.
602
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:10,160
He was never charged
and convicted of that murder.
603
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,200
There's this assumption
that every murder scene has DNA,
604
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:13,920
There's this assumption
that every murder scene has DNA,
605
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:15,960
has forensic, has fibres, has all of
the CSI factors going on,
606
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,000
has forensic, has fibres, has all of
the CSI factors going on,
607
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:18,360
has forensic, has fibres, has all of
the CSI factors going on,
608
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,400
and sometimes that's simply not
the case.
609
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:20,720
and sometimes that's simply not
the case.
610
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,760
Sometimes it's to do with
how the body is left,
611
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:23,560
Sometimes it's to do with
how the body is left,
612
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,600
the weather conditions, how good
the forensic examination is.
613
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,280
the weather conditions, how good
the forensic examination is.
614
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,320
And sometimes you just don't have
that evidence.
615
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:30,440
And sometimes you just don't have
that evidence.
616
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:31,920
So we can't rule him out.
617
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:33,960
But what more can we do
in terms of taking the case forward?
618
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,000
But what more can we do
in terms of taking the case forward?
619
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:36,400
But what more can we do
in terms of taking the case forward?
620
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,440
The bottom line
for a murder investigation
621
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:38,760
The bottom line
for a murder investigation
622
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,800
is that you've got to explore
all investigative opportunities
623
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,360
is that you've got to explore
all investigative opportunities
624
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,400
and all avenues or lines of inquiry.
625
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:45,400
and all avenues or lines of inquiry.
626
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,440
I think what you need to do is
park up Alun Kyte for the moment,
627
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:48,800
I think what you need to do is
park up Alun Kyte for the moment,
628
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,840
and go back and find out more
about what was going on
629
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:51,880
and go back and find out more
about what was going on
630
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:53,920
for those sex workers
in the Wolverhampton area
631
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:54,320
for those sex workers
in the Wolverhampton area
632
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:56,360
at around about the time that Janine
went missing and was killed.
633
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:57,840
at around about the time that Janine
went missing and was killed.
634
00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:59,880
Get some context around
Janine's world
635
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:00,840
Get some context around
Janine's world
636
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,880
and the circumstances
in which she went missing.
637
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:03,640
and the circumstances
in which she went missing.
638
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,480
Information is key here.
639
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,520
I know attitudes have changed
since the 1990s,
640
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,000
I know attitudes have changed
since the 1990s,
641
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,040
but it has been hard to get people
to talk to us.
642
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:11,880
but it has been hard to get people
to talk to us.
643
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,760
It has. And Mandy, I thought,
644
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:15,800
was so brave and courageous
to talk to us,
645
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:16,840
was so brave and courageous
to talk to us,
646
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,880
but she was still fearful
and scared.
647
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:19,560
but she was still fearful
and scared.
648
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,600
So it's going to be difficult
to find people to talk to us.
649
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:22,800
So it's going to be difficult
to find people to talk to us.
650
00:45:09,950 --> 00:45:11,950
I've managed to find
a former police officer
651
00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:12,270
I've managed to find
a former police officer
652
00:45:12,310 --> 00:45:14,310
who worked on the streets
of Wolverhampton
653
00:45:14,350 --> 00:45:14,990
who worked on the streets
of Wolverhampton
654
00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:17,030
at the same time Janine did.
655
00:45:17,070 --> 00:45:19,070
Perhaps he knew Janine
and can tell us more about her.
656
00:45:19,110 --> 00:45:19,510
Perhaps he knew Janine
and can tell us more about her.
657
00:45:25,910 --> 00:45:27,910
Paul, what exactly does
a police officer
658
00:45:27,950 --> 00:45:29,070
Paul, what exactly does
a police officer
659
00:45:29,110 --> 00:45:31,110
working on a vice unit do?
660
00:45:31,150 --> 00:45:32,190
working on a vice unit do?
661
00:45:32,230 --> 00:45:33,470
We're there for various reasons.
662
00:45:33,510 --> 00:45:35,510
The first really
is to keep the streets clear
663
00:45:35,550 --> 00:45:36,030
The first really
is to keep the streets clear
664
00:45:36,070 --> 00:45:37,950
so if people are walking
up and down the streets,
665
00:45:37,990 --> 00:45:39,990
they're not going to be harassed
by kerb-crawlers.
666
00:45:40,030 --> 00:45:41,470
they're not going to be harassed
by kerb-crawlers.
667
00:45:41,510 --> 00:45:43,510
{\an8}We dealt with girls who were being
forced to work as prostitutes.
668
00:45:43,550 --> 00:45:45,550
{\an8}We dealt with girls who were being
forced to work as prostitutes.
669
00:45:45,590 --> 00:45:46,230
{\an8}We dealt with girls who were being
forced to work as prostitutes.
670
00:45:46,270 --> 00:45:48,270
There was a place in Wolverhampton
called the Rollerdrome
671
00:45:48,310 --> 00:45:48,870
There was a place in Wolverhampton
called the Rollerdrome
672
00:45:48,910 --> 00:45:50,470
where a lot of girls
were picked up.
673
00:45:50,510 --> 00:45:52,510
They were bought presents,
taken to nice places,
674
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:53,190
They were bought presents,
taken to nice places,
675
00:45:53,230 --> 00:45:55,190
and then there was a reward
to be paid back,
676
00:45:55,230 --> 00:45:57,150
and that was to work the street.
677
00:45:57,190 --> 00:45:59,190
We had to try and save those girls,
678
00:45:59,230 --> 00:45:59,470
We had to try and save those girls,
679
00:45:59,510 --> 00:46:01,510
prevent them being hurt
and get them off the streets.
680
00:46:01,550 --> 00:46:02,390
prevent them being hurt
and get them off the streets.
681
00:46:02,430 --> 00:46:04,430
What was the red-light area like
back then?
682
00:46:04,470 --> 00:46:06,470
What was the red-light area like
back then?
683
00:46:06,510 --> 00:46:06,790
What was the red-light area like
back then?
684
00:46:06,830 --> 00:46:08,830
It was a large area.
It was fairly rough.
685
00:46:08,870 --> 00:46:09,150
It was a large area.
It was fairly rough.
686
00:46:09,190 --> 00:46:11,190
There were girls out
almost every night of the week.
687
00:46:11,230 --> 00:46:11,670
There were girls out
almost every night of the week.
688
00:46:11,710 --> 00:46:13,710
Almost every girl had got a pimp.
689
00:46:13,750 --> 00:46:13,990
Almost every girl had got a pimp.
690
00:46:14,030 --> 00:46:16,030
Well, if we look at 1991,
we made arrests
691
00:46:16,070 --> 00:46:18,030
Well, if we look at 1991,
we made arrests
692
00:46:18,070 --> 00:46:20,070
of 216 different girls. Gosh.
693
00:46:20,110 --> 00:46:21,470
of 216 different girls. Gosh.
694
00:46:21,510 --> 00:46:23,510
And one of those girls
that was selling sexual services,
695
00:46:23,550 --> 00:46:24,870
And one of those girls
that was selling sexual services,
696
00:46:24,910 --> 00:46:26,910
that did get arrested on
the streets, was Janine Downes.
697
00:46:26,950 --> 00:46:28,950
that did get arrested on
the streets, was Janine Downes.
698
00:46:28,990 --> 00:46:29,590
that did get arrested on
the streets, was Janine Downes.
699
00:46:29,630 --> 00:46:31,630
What was she like? She was a quiet
girl who wanted to keep to herself.
700
00:46:31,670 --> 00:46:33,110
What was she like? She was a quiet
girl who wanted to keep to herself.
701
00:46:33,150 --> 00:46:34,830
When she smiled,
she'd got a lovely smile.
702
00:46:34,870 --> 00:46:36,870
There's a picture here now on
the table, and I see Janine smiling.
703
00:46:36,910 --> 00:46:38,590
There's a picture here now on
the table, and I see Janine smiling.
704
00:46:38,630 --> 00:46:40,630
And when she smiled,
it was a lovely smile,
705
00:46:40,670 --> 00:46:40,950
And when she smiled,
it was a lovely smile,
706
00:46:40,990 --> 00:46:42,950
but she didn't want me
to know much about her.
707
00:46:42,990 --> 00:46:44,470
That could have been because
708
00:46:44,510 --> 00:46:46,510
that was Janine's way
of getting through life.
709
00:46:46,550 --> 00:46:46,950
that was Janine's way
of getting through life.
710
00:46:46,990 --> 00:46:48,990
She didn't want me to know who
was running her, who her pimp was.
711
00:46:49,030 --> 00:46:50,790
She didn't want me to know who
was running her, who her pimp was.
712
00:46:54,710 --> 00:46:56,710
Were you surprised
when Janine was found murdered?
713
00:46:56,750 --> 00:46:58,750
Were you surprised
when Janine was found murdered?
714
00:46:58,790 --> 00:46:59,070
Were you surprised
when Janine was found murdered?
715
00:46:59,110 --> 00:47:01,110
I actually identified Janine's body.
716
00:47:01,150 --> 00:47:01,390
I actually identified Janine's body.
717
00:47:01,430 --> 00:47:03,430
We identified her on the mortuary
slab at the hospital in Telford.
718
00:47:03,470 --> 00:47:05,230
We identified her on the mortuary
slab at the hospital in Telford.
719
00:47:05,270 --> 00:47:07,270
Gosh. How did you feel about that?
It's never gone away,
720
00:47:07,310 --> 00:47:09,190
Gosh. How did you feel about that?
It's never gone away,
721
00:47:09,230 --> 00:47:10,590
I've got to be fair.
722
00:47:10,630 --> 00:47:12,630
I was perhaps one of the last people
to see her before the postmortem.
723
00:47:12,670 --> 00:47:13,510
I was perhaps one of the last people
to see her before the postmortem.
724
00:47:13,550 --> 00:47:15,550
It never goes away.
It lives with you.
725
00:47:15,590 --> 00:47:15,790
It never goes away.
It lives with you.
726
00:47:18,590 --> 00:47:20,590
I went with two of
my women officers.
727
00:47:20,630 --> 00:47:20,910
I went with two of
my women officers.
728
00:47:20,950 --> 00:47:22,950
We were taken by West Mercia officer
when we got there
729
00:47:22,990 --> 00:47:23,950
We were taken by West Mercia officer
when we got there
730
00:47:23,990 --> 00:47:25,990
into the mortuary at the hospital.
731
00:47:26,030 --> 00:47:28,030
A towel or a blanket was pulled back
from her face
732
00:47:28,070 --> 00:47:29,390
A towel or a blanket was pulled back
from her face
733
00:47:29,430 --> 00:47:31,350
down to the top of her neck.
734
00:47:31,390 --> 00:47:33,390
And we looked at it and straight
away all three of us says,
735
00:47:33,430 --> 00:47:34,630
And we looked at it and straight
away all three of us says,
736
00:47:34,670 --> 00:47:35,830
"It's Janine Downes."
737
00:47:37,390 --> 00:47:39,390
When you see something like that,
it was quite a shock.
738
00:47:39,430 --> 00:47:39,750
When you see something like that,
it was quite a shock.
739
00:47:41,030 --> 00:47:43,030
And the drive back,
it was a drive in silence
740
00:47:43,070 --> 00:47:43,310
And the drive back,
it was a drive in silence
741
00:47:43,350 --> 00:47:45,350
as we drove back to Wolverhampton.
742
00:47:45,390 --> 00:47:47,390
We were all upset.
She was one of the girls,
743
00:47:47,430 --> 00:47:47,870
We were all upset.
She was one of the girls,
744
00:47:47,910 --> 00:47:49,910
as I believed, our job
was to look after,
745
00:47:49,950 --> 00:47:50,470
as I believed, our job
was to look after,
746
00:47:50,510 --> 00:47:51,990
and we hadn't looked after her.
747
00:47:52,030 --> 00:47:54,030
Somebody, whoever it was had...
Had killed her.
748
00:47:54,070 --> 00:47:55,550
Somebody, whoever it was had...
Had killed her.
749
00:47:55,590 --> 00:47:57,590
And even to this day,
I look back on it now and think,
750
00:47:57,630 --> 00:47:58,830
And even to this day,
I look back on it now and think,
751
00:47:58,870 --> 00:48:00,830
"Well, did I do my job properly?"
752
00:48:03,910 --> 00:48:05,910
With your experience,
if a body is left
753
00:48:05,950 --> 00:48:06,350
With your experience,
if a body is left
754
00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:08,390
in the circumstances
in which Janine's body was found,
755
00:48:08,430 --> 00:48:10,230
in the circumstances
in which Janine's body was found,
756
00:48:10,270 --> 00:48:12,270
what does that imply about
the person who killed her?
757
00:48:12,310 --> 00:48:14,310
what does that imply about
the person who killed her?
758
00:48:14,350 --> 00:48:15,070
what does that imply about
the person who killed her?
759
00:48:15,110 --> 00:48:17,110
She's way, way from the vice area.
760
00:48:17,150 --> 00:48:18,030
She's way, way from the vice area.
761
00:48:18,070 --> 00:48:20,070
As the girls want to try
and maximise their income,
762
00:48:20,110 --> 00:48:20,990
As the girls want to try
and maximise their income,
763
00:48:21,030 --> 00:48:23,070
they're not going to go to Shifnal,
764
00:48:23,110 --> 00:48:25,110
which is going to take them
40 minutes each way.
765
00:48:25,150 --> 00:48:25,590
which is going to take them
40 minutes each way.
766
00:48:25,630 --> 00:48:27,630
So they want to go to areas
of Wolverhampton
767
00:48:27,670 --> 00:48:28,430
So they want to go to areas
of Wolverhampton
768
00:48:28,470 --> 00:48:30,470
because they can be back in the area
in five minutes.
769
00:48:30,510 --> 00:48:30,910
because they can be back in the area
in five minutes.
770
00:48:30,950 --> 00:48:32,950
Janine wouldn't gladly
have gone there to go with a punter.
771
00:48:32,990 --> 00:48:34,990
Janine wouldn't gladly
have gone there to go with a punter.
772
00:48:35,030 --> 00:48:35,310
Janine wouldn't gladly
have gone there to go with a punter.
773
00:48:35,350 --> 00:48:36,990
So perhaps the doors were locked,
she was taken there,
774
00:48:37,030 --> 00:48:38,870
but then again, it could be a pimp
775
00:48:38,910 --> 00:48:40,910
who has perhaps had
a domestic argument with her.
776
00:48:40,950 --> 00:48:41,230
who has perhaps had
a domestic argument with her.
777
00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:42,870
Whatever -
she's not earning enough money,
778
00:48:42,910 --> 00:48:44,910
given a good hiding, gone too far
779
00:48:44,950 --> 00:48:45,190
given a good hiding, gone too far
780
00:48:45,230 --> 00:48:46,870
and taken the body
and dumped it out there.
781
00:48:48,030 --> 00:48:49,710
It could be a pimp.
It could be a punter.
782
00:48:49,750 --> 00:48:51,750
It could be anybody.
I just hope that one day,
783
00:48:51,790 --> 00:48:52,990
It could be anybody.
I just hope that one day,
784
00:48:53,030 --> 00:48:55,030
the person who's done it
is convicted and goes to prison.
785
00:48:55,070 --> 00:48:55,670
the person who's done it
is convicted and goes to prison.
786
00:49:10,270 --> 00:49:12,270
What did Paul Snape say?
Well, he was interesting.
787
00:49:12,310 --> 00:49:13,990
What did Paul Snape say?
Well, he was interesting.
788
00:49:14,030 --> 00:49:16,030
He thought it unlikely Janine
would have willingly gone with
789
00:49:16,070 --> 00:49:17,150
He thought it unlikely Janine
would have willingly gone with
790
00:49:17,190 --> 00:49:19,190
a punter so far away from
the red-light district,
791
00:49:19,230 --> 00:49:20,910
a punter so far away from
the red-light district,
792
00:49:20,950 --> 00:49:22,950
when she could earn more money
by staying closer.
793
00:49:22,990 --> 00:49:24,750
when she could earn more money
by staying closer.
794
00:49:24,790 --> 00:49:26,790
He did mention the possibility
of her pimp,
795
00:49:26,830 --> 00:49:27,550
He did mention the possibility
of her pimp,
796
00:49:27,590 --> 00:49:29,590
and that's an avenue
we haven't yet explored.
797
00:49:29,630 --> 00:49:30,710
and that's an avenue
we haven't yet explored.
798
00:49:34,470 --> 00:49:36,470
I've found someone on social media
who said she was working
799
00:49:36,510 --> 00:49:37,350
I've found someone on social media
who said she was working
800
00:49:37,390 --> 00:49:39,390
in the Wolverhampton
red-light district
801
00:49:39,430 --> 00:49:39,710
in the Wolverhampton
red-light district
802
00:49:39,750 --> 00:49:41,750
around the time Janine was murdered.
I'm going to reach out to her.
803
00:49:41,790 --> 00:49:42,710
around the time Janine was murdered.
I'm going to reach out to her.
804
00:49:53,310 --> 00:49:55,310
Joanne, would you be happy
to share your experiences
805
00:49:55,350 --> 00:49:56,430
Joanne, would you be happy
to share your experiences
806
00:49:56,470 --> 00:49:58,470
with me and David, and anything
that you could tell us about Janine?
807
00:49:58,510 --> 00:50:00,430
with me and David, and anything
that you could tell us about Janine?
808
00:50:05,190 --> 00:50:07,190
I've reached a bit of a dead end
and I need some help.
809
00:50:07,230 --> 00:50:08,550
I've reached a bit of a dead end
and I need some help.
810
00:50:08,590 --> 00:50:10,590
Can you do a bit of digging?
Sure, yeah.
811
00:50:10,630 --> 00:50:10,910
Can you do a bit of digging?
Sure, yeah.
812
00:50:10,950 --> 00:50:12,950
OK. Give us a call
and let me know how you get on.
813
00:50:12,990 --> 00:50:13,670
OK. Give us a call
and let me know how you get on.
814
00:50:16,070 --> 00:50:18,070
{\an8}Great. Um, I will send you
a location by text,
815
00:50:18,110 --> 00:50:19,510
{\an8}Great. Um, I will send you
a location by text,
816
00:50:19,550 --> 00:50:20,910
if that's OK.
817
00:50:23,270 --> 00:50:24,550
Bye.
818
00:50:30,230 --> 00:50:32,230
Any news? Any developments?
Yes. She's agreed to meet us,
819
00:50:32,270 --> 00:50:34,270
Any news? Any developments?
Yes. She's agreed to meet us,
820
00:50:34,310 --> 00:50:35,990
Any news? Any developments?
Yes. She's agreed to meet us,
821
00:50:36,030 --> 00:50:38,030
but she wants to remain anonymous.
822
00:50:38,070 --> 00:50:38,310
but she wants to remain anonymous.
823
00:50:38,350 --> 00:50:40,350
She says she can tell us more
about what was happening
824
00:50:40,390 --> 00:50:42,230
in the red-light district
at the time.
825
00:50:49,750 --> 00:50:51,750
{\an8}Joanne, thank you
for sharing your story with us.
826
00:50:51,790 --> 00:50:52,470
{\an8}Joanne, thank you
for sharing your story with us.
827
00:50:53,950 --> 00:50:55,950
When did you go out
onto the streets?
828
00:50:55,990 --> 00:50:57,670
When did you go out
onto the streets?
829
00:50:57,710 --> 00:50:59,630
When did that take place?
830
00:51:05,790 --> 00:51:07,150
Did you know Janine?
831
00:51:15,910 --> 00:51:17,910
What led you to start working
on the streets
832
00:51:17,950 --> 00:51:18,750
What led you to start working
on the streets
833
00:51:18,790 --> 00:51:20,790
in Wolverhampton's
red-light district?
834
00:51:20,830 --> 00:51:21,030
in Wolverhampton's
red-light district?
835
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:38,310
How old were you?
836
00:51:49,910 --> 00:51:51,910
Do you feel that you got groomed
into what happened to you?
837
00:51:51,950 --> 00:51:53,590
Do you feel that you got groomed
into what happened to you?
838
00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:21,270
So the man you first met
was part of a gang?
839
00:52:21,310 --> 00:52:22,270
So the man you first met
was part of a gang?
840
00:52:56,510 --> 00:52:57,990
At what point, Joanne,
841
00:52:58,030 --> 00:53:00,030
did this man become
physically violent towards you?
842
00:53:00,070 --> 00:53:01,910
did this man become
physically violent towards you?
843
00:53:36,950 --> 00:53:38,950
Did anyone ever try to snatch you?
844
00:53:38,990 --> 00:53:39,390
Did anyone ever try to snatch you?
845
00:53:39,430 --> 00:53:40,750
What happened?
846
00:54:14,350 --> 00:54:15,990
Did you take this to the police?
847
00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:47,990
So you were attacked very close to
where Janine was last seen alive?
848
00:54:48,030 --> 00:54:50,030
So you were attacked very close to
where Janine was last seen alive?
849
00:54:50,070 --> 00:54:50,350
So you were attacked very close to
where Janine was last seen alive?
850
00:54:52,310 --> 00:54:54,310
And were lucky to have survived
that attack.
851
00:54:54,350 --> 00:54:54,750
And were lucky to have survived
that attack.
852
00:54:54,790 --> 00:54:56,790
That seems to me like
853
00:54:56,830 --> 00:54:57,070
That seems to me like
854
00:54:57,110 --> 00:54:59,110
a powerful piece of evidence
for no-one to have listened to.
855
00:54:59,150 --> 00:55:00,630
a powerful piece of evidence
for no-one to have listened to.
856
00:55:08,550 --> 00:55:10,270
Do you feel that Janine's murder
857
00:55:10,310 --> 00:55:12,310
was investigated as fully
as it could have been?
858
00:55:12,350 --> 00:55:13,270
was investigated as fully
as it could have been?
859
00:56:03,790 --> 00:56:05,790
What did you think about
what Joanne told us?
860
00:56:05,830 --> 00:56:06,070
What did you think about
what Joanne told us?
861
00:56:06,110 --> 00:56:07,550
I thought it was really powerful.
862
00:56:07,590 --> 00:56:09,590
I was quite shocked by
the vulnerability
863
00:56:09,630 --> 00:56:11,390
I was quite shocked by
the vulnerability
864
00:56:11,430 --> 00:56:13,430
of the girls working the streets.
865
00:56:13,470 --> 00:56:13,790
of the girls working the streets.
866
00:56:13,830 --> 00:56:15,830
And she told us about
that horrific attack
867
00:56:15,870 --> 00:56:16,350
And she told us about
that horrific attack
868
00:56:16,390 --> 00:56:18,390
by a rival pimp just months
after Janine was murdered.
869
00:56:18,430 --> 00:56:19,590
by a rival pimp just months
after Janine was murdered.
870
00:56:19,630 --> 00:56:21,630
Yeah. She couldn't name the person
that attacked her.
871
00:56:21,670 --> 00:56:23,670
Yeah. She couldn't name the person
that attacked her.
872
00:56:23,710 --> 00:56:24,070
Yeah. She couldn't name the person
that attacked her.
873
00:56:24,110 --> 00:56:26,110
But if the police had acted
at the time,
874
00:56:26,150 --> 00:56:26,550
But if the police had acted
at the time,
875
00:56:26,590 --> 00:56:28,590
he perhaps could have
been identified,
876
00:56:28,630 --> 00:56:29,590
he perhaps could have
been identified,
877
00:56:29,630 --> 00:56:31,630
and so it's a missed opportunity.
878
00:56:31,670 --> 00:56:31,950
and so it's a missed opportunity.
879
00:56:35,870 --> 00:56:37,870
PHONE VIBRATES
880
00:56:37,910 --> 00:56:38,070
PHONE VIBRATES
881
00:56:42,790 --> 00:56:44,790
Hi, Kate. What have you got for us?
882
00:56:44,830 --> 00:56:45,070
Hi, Kate. What have you got for us?
883
00:56:45,110 --> 00:56:47,110
I've just spoken to someone
who knew Janine well.
884
00:56:47,150 --> 00:56:47,430
I've just spoken to someone
who knew Janine well.
885
00:56:47,470 --> 00:56:49,470
She worked with her
in the red-light district.
886
00:56:49,510 --> 00:56:49,790
She worked with her
in the red-light district.
887
00:56:49,830 --> 00:56:51,470
She doesn't want to be identified,
888
00:56:51,510 --> 00:56:53,510
but has told me I can share with you
what she said.
889
00:56:53,550 --> 00:56:54,030
but has told me I can share with you
what she said.
890
00:56:54,070 --> 00:56:56,070
How did they know her?
She met her when she was a teenager.
891
00:56:56,110 --> 00:56:58,110
How did they know her?
She met her when she was a teenager.
892
00:56:58,150 --> 00:56:59,070
How did they know her?
She met her when she was a teenager.
893
00:56:59,110 --> 00:57:01,110
Both of them had been in care.
894
00:57:01,150 --> 00:57:01,390
Both of them had been in care.
895
00:57:01,430 --> 00:57:03,430
Then they started working
the streets around the same time.
896
00:57:03,470 --> 00:57:03,950
Then they started working
the streets around the same time.
897
00:57:03,990 --> 00:57:05,990
What did she say Janine was like?
898
00:57:06,030 --> 00:57:06,270
What did she say Janine was like?
899
00:57:06,310 --> 00:57:08,310
She said that she was tough,
she was loud, she was bubbly.
900
00:57:08,350 --> 00:57:10,350
She said that she was tough,
she was loud, she was bubbly.
901
00:57:10,390 --> 00:57:11,110
She said that she was tough,
she was loud, she was bubbly.
902
00:57:11,150 --> 00:57:12,990
But she also said she had
a sensitive side.
903
00:57:13,030 --> 00:57:15,030
She said sometimes you had
to be tough on the streets,
904
00:57:15,070 --> 00:57:15,390
She said sometimes you had
to be tough on the streets,
905
00:57:15,430 --> 00:57:17,430
but she had a sensitive side
like they all did.
906
00:57:17,470 --> 00:57:17,990
but she had a sensitive side
like they all did.
907
00:57:18,030 --> 00:57:19,870
Did you get a sense of some of
the pimps
908
00:57:19,910 --> 00:57:21,870
that were working
in the red-light area?
909
00:57:21,910 --> 00:57:23,910
Was there any information
of that kind?
910
00:57:23,950 --> 00:57:24,470
Was there any information
of that kind?
911
00:57:24,510 --> 00:57:26,510
She said the pimps
that controlled Janine,
912
00:57:26,550 --> 00:57:26,870
She said the pimps
that controlled Janine,
913
00:57:26,910 --> 00:57:28,910
were based in this high rise
in Wolverhampton,
914
00:57:28,950 --> 00:57:29,550
were based in this high rise
in Wolverhampton,
915
00:57:31,270 --> 00:57:33,270
She did say that she had an idea
of who might have killed Janine.
916
00:57:33,310 --> 00:57:35,310
She did say that she had an idea
of who might have killed Janine.
917
00:57:35,350 --> 00:57:35,590
She did say that she had an idea
of who might have killed Janine.
918
00:57:35,630 --> 00:57:37,630
Oh! And who was that?
919
00:57:37,670 --> 00:57:37,910
Oh! And who was that?
920
00:57:37,950 --> 00:57:39,950
Well, his name's a local criminal
called Pippy Perry.
921
00:57:39,990 --> 00:57:41,270
Well, his name's a local criminal
called Pippy Perry.
922
00:57:43,230 --> 00:57:45,230
Pippy Perry? Pippy Perry.
That's right.
923
00:57:45,270 --> 00:57:47,150
Pippy Perry? Pippy Perry.
That's right.
924
00:57:47,190 --> 00:57:49,190
And he was linked to pimps with
Wolverhampton in the early '90s.
925
00:57:49,230 --> 00:57:51,230
And he was linked to pimps with
Wolverhampton in the early '90s.
926
00:57:51,270 --> 00:57:51,510
And he was linked to pimps with
Wolverhampton in the early '90s.
927
00:57:51,550 --> 00:57:52,870
Now, I've spoken to Joanne
928
00:57:52,910 --> 00:57:54,910
and she says he is not the man
that attacked her.
929
00:57:54,950 --> 00:57:55,710
and she says he is not the man
that attacked her.
930
00:57:55,750 --> 00:57:57,750
So Perry
is another potential suspect.
931
00:57:57,790 --> 00:57:58,670
So Perry
is another potential suspect.
932
00:57:58,710 --> 00:58:00,710
And why does she think he might
be responsible for Janine's murder?
933
00:58:00,750 --> 00:58:02,750
And why does she think he might
be responsible for Janine's murder?
934
00:58:02,790 --> 00:58:04,790
She said he was violent. He bullied
the girls. He'd beat them up.
935
00:58:04,830 --> 00:58:06,830
She said he was violent. He bullied
the girls. He'd beat them up.
936
00:58:06,870 --> 00:58:07,270
She said he was violent. He bullied
the girls. He'd beat them up.
937
00:58:07,310 --> 00:58:09,310
He'd drag them down alleyways near
the Harp Inn and steal their money,
938
00:58:09,350 --> 00:58:11,350
He'd drag them down alleyways near
the Harp Inn and steal their money,
939
00:58:11,390 --> 00:58:11,950
He'd drag them down alleyways near
the Harp Inn and steal their money,
940
00:58:11,990 --> 00:58:13,990
which would get them
in trouble with their pimp.
941
00:58:14,030 --> 00:58:15,070
which would get them
in trouble with their pimp.
942
00:58:15,110 --> 00:58:17,110
She said he was in the area
the night Janine disappeared.
943
00:58:17,150 --> 00:58:18,990
She said he was in the area
the night Janine disappeared.
944
00:58:19,030 --> 00:58:21,030
Did he have criminal convictions?
945
00:58:21,070 --> 00:58:21,310
Did he have criminal convictions?
946
00:58:21,350 --> 00:58:23,350
He's got convictions
for violence against women.
947
00:58:23,390 --> 00:58:24,710
He's got convictions
for violence against women.
948
00:58:24,750 --> 00:58:26,750
He's got convictions
for knife-point robbery.
949
00:58:26,790 --> 00:58:28,110
He's got convictions
for knife-point robbery.
950
00:58:28,150 --> 00:58:30,150
Before 1991,
he was convicted of the kidnapping
951
00:58:30,190 --> 00:58:32,190
Before 1991,
he was convicted of the kidnapping
952
00:58:32,230 --> 00:58:33,030
Before 1991,
he was convicted of the kidnapping
953
00:58:33,070 --> 00:58:35,070
of two sex workers
from Birmingham at knife-point.
954
00:58:35,110 --> 00:58:37,110
of two sex workers
from Birmingham at knife-point.
955
00:58:37,150 --> 00:58:37,430
of two sex workers
from Birmingham at knife-point.
956
00:58:37,470 --> 00:58:39,470
Was he ever a person of interest
to the police?
957
00:58:39,510 --> 00:58:40,190
Was he ever a person of interest
to the police?
958
00:58:40,230 --> 00:58:42,230
Well, I'm not sure. That's
something we might have to find out.
959
00:58:42,270 --> 00:58:43,710
Well, I'm not sure. That's
something we might have to find out.
960
00:58:43,750 --> 00:58:45,750
He did have an interest in Janine,
apparently.
961
00:58:45,790 --> 00:58:47,070
He did have an interest in Janine,
apparently.
962
00:58:47,110 --> 00:58:49,110
He was seen a lot of the time
with her,
963
00:58:49,150 --> 00:58:49,710
He was seen a lot of the time
with her,
964
00:58:49,750 --> 00:58:51,750
but he definitely wasn't her pimp.
965
00:58:51,790 --> 00:58:52,230
but he definitely wasn't her pimp.
966
00:58:52,270 --> 00:58:54,030
And what's happened to him now?
967
00:58:54,070 --> 00:58:56,070
Well, he has passed away.
He died in 2017.
968
00:58:56,110 --> 00:58:57,590
Well, he has passed away.
He died in 2017.
969
00:58:57,630 --> 00:58:59,630
And did she ever report any
of these concerns to the police?
970
00:58:59,670 --> 00:59:01,670
And did she ever report any
of these concerns to the police?
971
00:59:01,710 --> 00:59:02,110
And did she ever report any
of these concerns to the police?
972
00:59:02,150 --> 00:59:04,150
She did. She said that
one of the appeals,
973
00:59:04,190 --> 00:59:04,590
She did. She said that
one of the appeals,
974
00:59:04,630 --> 00:59:06,630
on an anniversary
of Janine's murder,
975
00:59:06,670 --> 00:59:07,070
on an anniversary
of Janine's murder,
976
00:59:07,110 --> 00:59:09,110
she did get in touch
with the police.
977
00:59:09,150 --> 00:59:09,430
she did get in touch
with the police.
978
00:59:09,470 --> 00:59:11,470
And of course, she said,
"Look, I've got no proof,"
979
00:59:11,510 --> 00:59:11,790
And of course, she said,
"Look, I've got no proof,"
980
00:59:11,830 --> 00:59:13,830
but she used to see Pippy
around Janine a lot,
981
00:59:13,870 --> 00:59:15,750
but she used to see Pippy
around Janine a lot,
982
00:59:15,790 --> 00:59:17,790
and that he operated in that area
and was violent to the girls.
983
00:59:17,830 --> 00:59:19,510
and that he operated in that area
and was violent to the girls.
984
00:59:19,550 --> 00:59:21,550
She told police this.
Apparently they came back to her
985
00:59:21,590 --> 00:59:23,070
She told police this.
Apparently they came back to her
986
00:59:23,110 --> 00:59:25,110
and said that they don't think
that her gut feeling,
987
00:59:25,150 --> 00:59:25,550
and said that they don't think
that her gut feeling,
988
00:59:25,590 --> 00:59:26,990
I guess, had much weight.
989
00:59:27,030 --> 00:59:29,030
But she doesn't know whether
they checked him out for an alibi.
990
00:59:29,070 --> 00:59:30,270
But she doesn't know whether
they checked him out for an alibi.
991
00:59:30,310 --> 00:59:32,310
OK, Kate, thanks so much.
That's really helpful. Thank you.
992
00:59:32,350 --> 00:59:33,350
OK, Kate, thanks so much.
That's really helpful. Thank you.
993
00:59:35,670 --> 00:59:37,670
That's a completely new person.
Yeah.
994
00:59:37,710 --> 00:59:38,710
That's a completely new person.
Yeah.
995
00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:40,750
This guy, Pippy Perry,
996
00:59:40,790 --> 00:59:41,150
This guy, Pippy Perry,
997
00:59:41,190 --> 00:59:43,190
he does seem to have previous
for abducting, hurting sex workers,
998
00:59:43,230 --> 00:59:45,230
he does seem to have previous
for abducting, hurting sex workers,
999
00:59:45,270 --> 00:59:46,550
he does seem to have previous
for abducting, hurting sex workers,
1000
00:59:46,590 --> 00:59:48,510
and he clearly knew Janine.
1001
00:59:48,550 --> 00:59:50,550
So maybe we've got to find out more
about Pippy Perry.
1002
00:59:50,590 --> 00:59:51,350
So maybe we've got to find out more
about Pippy Perry.
1003
00:59:51,390 --> 00:59:52,950
How would we do that?
1004
00:59:52,990 --> 00:59:54,990
Well, the first thing that strikes
me is that there would be
1005
00:59:55,030 --> 00:59:56,630
Well, the first thing that strikes
me is that there would be
1006
00:59:56,670 --> 00:59:58,670
a number of journalists who would be
covering the Wolverhampton area.
1007
00:59:58,710 --> 01:00:00,470
a number of journalists who would be
covering the Wolverhampton area.
1008
01:00:07,710 --> 01:00:09,710
I know somebody that might be able
to flesh the story out
1009
01:00:09,750 --> 01:00:11,630
I know somebody that might be able
to flesh the story out
1010
01:00:11,670 --> 01:00:13,670
that Kate's been given.
I think. I'll approach him.
1011
01:00:13,710 --> 01:00:13,910
that Kate's been given.
I think. I'll approach him.
1012
01:00:26,510 --> 01:00:27,510
Hello.
1013
01:00:28,750 --> 01:00:30,750
Thanks for agreeing to meet with me.
1014
01:00:30,790 --> 01:00:30,990
Thanks for agreeing to meet with me.
1015
01:00:32,590 --> 01:00:34,590
What can you tell me
about Pippy Perry?
1016
01:00:34,630 --> 01:00:34,910
What can you tell me
about Pippy Perry?
1017
01:00:34,950 --> 01:00:36,950
{\an8}Steven Perry mixed with
a certain crowd.
1018
01:00:36,990 --> 01:00:37,430
{\an8}Steven Perry mixed with
a certain crowd.
1019
01:00:37,470 --> 01:00:39,430
{\an8}I met him a few times.
1020
01:00:39,470 --> 01:00:41,470
He was a pretty, you know,
nondescript young guy, really.
1021
01:00:41,510 --> 01:00:42,630
He was a pretty, you know,
nondescript young guy, really.
1022
01:00:42,670 --> 01:00:44,710
He knew people who were of violence,
1023
01:00:44,750 --> 01:00:46,590
but certainly wasn't a name
that you would say
1024
01:00:46,630 --> 01:00:48,630
someone to be scared of
or someone dangerous,
1025
01:00:48,670 --> 01:00:49,150
someone to be scared of
or someone dangerous,
1026
01:00:49,190 --> 01:00:50,910
though he mixed in those circles.
1027
01:00:50,950 --> 01:00:52,950
I've got a picture of him here
that I've kind of blown up
1028
01:00:52,990 --> 01:00:53,790
I've got a picture of him here
that I've kind of blown up
1029
01:00:53,830 --> 01:00:55,590
if you haven't seen one before,
1030
01:00:55,630 --> 01:00:57,630
but I certainly got the impression
that he was more a follower,
1031
01:00:57,670 --> 01:00:58,790
but I certainly got the impression
that he was more a follower,
1032
01:00:58,830 --> 01:01:00,830
rather than being the initiator
or some kind of leader.
1033
01:01:00,870 --> 01:01:01,510
rather than being the initiator
or some kind of leader.
1034
01:01:01,550 --> 01:01:03,550
I'm getting the idea you don't think
he carried out this murder.
1035
01:01:03,590 --> 01:01:05,550
I'm getting the idea you don't think
he carried out this murder.
1036
01:01:05,590 --> 01:01:07,590
He was convicted, though,
of kidnapping sex workers,
1037
01:01:07,630 --> 01:01:09,590
He was convicted, though,
of kidnapping sex workers,
1038
01:01:09,630 --> 01:01:11,630
and we've heard he was brutal
towards them.
1039
01:01:11,670 --> 01:01:12,670
and we've heard he was brutal
towards them.
1040
01:01:12,710 --> 01:01:14,710
There is some violence
in his background,
1041
01:01:14,750 --> 01:01:15,070
There is some violence
in his background,
1042
01:01:15,110 --> 01:01:17,110
but not likely to be a suspect
in Janine Downes's murder?
1043
01:01:17,150 --> 01:01:19,150
but not likely to be a suspect
in Janine Downes's murder?
1044
01:01:19,190 --> 01:01:19,470
but not likely to be a suspect
in Janine Downes's murder?
1045
01:01:19,510 --> 01:01:20,750
I doubt it.
1046
01:01:22,790 --> 01:01:24,790
Amardeep, you were born and bred
in Wolverhampton.
1047
01:01:24,830 --> 01:01:25,790
Amardeep, you were born and bred
in Wolverhampton.
1048
01:01:25,830 --> 01:01:27,830
When Janine was murdered,
what was the word in the street
1049
01:01:27,870 --> 01:01:29,270
When Janine was murdered,
what was the word in the street
1050
01:01:29,310 --> 01:01:31,310
that you were able to pick up
as a journalist?
1051
01:01:31,350 --> 01:01:31,630
that you were able to pick up
as a journalist?
1052
01:01:31,670 --> 01:01:33,670
It was big news in Wolverhampton.
The prostitutes in Wolverhampton
1053
01:01:33,710 --> 01:01:35,030
It was big news in Wolverhampton.
The prostitutes in Wolverhampton
1054
01:01:35,070 --> 01:01:37,070
weren't viewed badly, you know,
they were local girls.
1055
01:01:37,110 --> 01:01:38,230
weren't viewed badly, you know,
they were local girls.
1056
01:01:38,270 --> 01:01:40,270
They were honest girls in a lot
of ways, and they were our girls.
1057
01:01:40,310 --> 01:01:41,470
They were honest girls in a lot
of ways, and they were our girls.
1058
01:01:41,510 --> 01:01:43,430
These are Wolverhampton girls.
1059
01:01:43,470 --> 01:01:45,470
It really struck a nerve with people
in Wolverhampton.
1060
01:01:45,510 --> 01:01:46,190
It really struck a nerve with people
in Wolverhampton.
1061
01:01:46,230 --> 01:01:48,230
To this day. The name Janine Downes
1062
01:01:48,270 --> 01:01:48,510
To this day. The name Janine Downes
1063
01:01:48,550 --> 01:01:49,950
and the horrific circumstances
around it,
1064
01:01:49,990 --> 01:01:51,990
people still talk about it.
And it certainly changed
1065
01:01:52,030 --> 01:01:52,310
people still talk about it.
And it certainly changed
1066
01:01:52,350 --> 01:01:54,350
the whole red-light scene
in Wolverhampton.
1067
01:01:54,390 --> 01:01:54,870
the whole red-light scene
in Wolverhampton.
1068
01:01:54,910 --> 01:01:56,870
In what way? It broke it down,
really.
1069
01:01:56,910 --> 01:01:58,790
It was the beginning of the end.
1070
01:01:58,830 --> 01:02:00,830
Wolverhampton in the early
'90s really was a centre
1071
01:02:00,870 --> 01:02:01,710
Wolverhampton in the early
'90s really was a centre
1072
01:02:01,750 --> 01:02:03,750
for prostitution and also a centre
for drug distribution.
1073
01:02:03,790 --> 01:02:05,150
for prostitution and also a centre
for drug distribution.
1074
01:02:05,190 --> 01:02:07,190
The hard drugs were appearing
on the scene, gangs were forming.
1075
01:02:07,230 --> 01:02:08,230
The hard drugs were appearing
on the scene, gangs were forming.
1076
01:02:08,270 --> 01:02:10,270
Wolverhampton's drug tentacles
reached as far as Aberdeen
1077
01:02:10,310 --> 01:02:12,110
Wolverhampton's drug tentacles
reached as far as Aberdeen
1078
01:02:12,150 --> 01:02:14,150
and further north,
and that really was
1079
01:02:14,190 --> 01:02:14,670
and further north,
and that really was
1080
01:02:14,710 --> 01:02:16,710
a phenomenon unique
to Wolverhampton.
1081
01:02:16,750 --> 01:02:17,190
a phenomenon unique
to Wolverhampton.
1082
01:02:17,230 --> 01:02:19,230
The prostitution scene in
Wolverhampton was well established,
1083
01:02:19,270 --> 01:02:20,670
The prostitution scene in
Wolverhampton was well established,
1084
01:02:20,710 --> 01:02:22,710
well organised. Some of the girls
started going up to Aberdeen
1085
01:02:22,750 --> 01:02:24,510
well organised. Some of the girls
started going up to Aberdeen
1086
01:02:24,550 --> 01:02:26,550
to sell themselves, I suppose,
to the oil workers.
1087
01:02:26,590 --> 01:02:27,590
to sell themselves, I suppose,
to the oil workers.
1088
01:02:27,630 --> 01:02:29,630
They'd heard that there's oil
workers there, they've got money.
1089
01:02:29,670 --> 01:02:29,950
They'd heard that there's oil
workers there, they've got money.
1090
01:02:29,990 --> 01:02:31,830
Then their pimps realised,
"Well, hang on -
1091
01:02:31,870 --> 01:02:33,270
"while you're going up there,
1092
01:02:33,310 --> 01:02:35,310
"why don't you take some heroin
up there and start selling that?"
1093
01:02:35,350 --> 01:02:36,030
"why don't you take some heroin
up there and start selling that?"
1094
01:02:36,070 --> 01:02:38,070
And was this a well-known phenomenon
at the time?
1095
01:02:38,110 --> 01:02:38,390
And was this a well-known phenomenon
at the time?
1096
01:02:38,430 --> 01:02:40,430
Oh, yeah. I mean, it was given
a name - the Aberdeen Express
1097
01:02:40,470 --> 01:02:40,750
Oh, yeah. I mean, it was given
a name - the Aberdeen Express
1098
01:02:40,790 --> 01:02:42,790
or the Aberdeen Run.
And do you think Janine
1099
01:02:42,830 --> 01:02:43,110
or the Aberdeen Run.
And do you think Janine
1100
01:02:43,150 --> 01:02:45,150
could have been caught up
in this Aberdeen Express?
1101
01:02:45,190 --> 01:02:46,670
could have been caught up
in this Aberdeen Express?
1102
01:02:46,710 --> 01:02:48,710
It's very likely. In Wolverhampton
the pimps were families
1103
01:02:48,750 --> 01:02:50,030
It's very likely. In Wolverhampton
the pimps were families
1104
01:02:50,070 --> 01:02:51,670
as opposed to an individual,
1105
01:02:51,710 --> 01:02:53,710
and these families would
use these girls as commodities
1106
01:02:53,750 --> 01:02:54,950
and these families would
use these girls as commodities
1107
01:02:54,990 --> 01:02:56,990
to get to another pimp.
If you had a rival pimp,
1108
01:02:57,030 --> 01:02:57,430
to get to another pimp.
If you had a rival pimp,
1109
01:02:57,470 --> 01:02:59,470
you wouldn't touch the pimp,
but you'd do something to the girls.
1110
01:02:59,510 --> 01:03:00,550
you wouldn't touch the pimp,
but you'd do something to the girls.
1111
01:03:00,590 --> 01:03:02,590
Do we know who was pimping Janine?
1112
01:03:02,630 --> 01:03:03,550
Do we know who was pimping Janine?
1113
01:03:03,590 --> 01:03:05,590
There's various names
been bandied about,
1114
01:03:05,630 --> 01:03:05,910
There's various names
been bandied about,
1115
01:03:05,950 --> 01:03:07,950
and chances are she may have had
a few pimps.
1116
01:03:07,990 --> 01:03:08,390
and chances are she may have had
a few pimps.
1117
01:03:08,430 --> 01:03:10,430
Wolverhampton in the early '90s
was very much a Yardie stronghold,
1118
01:03:10,470 --> 01:03:12,470
Wolverhampton in the early '90s
was very much a Yardie stronghold,
1119
01:03:12,510 --> 01:03:13,110
Wolverhampton in the early '90s
was very much a Yardie stronghold,
1120
01:03:13,150 --> 01:03:15,150
but they were essentially
Jamaican criminals,
1121
01:03:15,190 --> 01:03:15,830
but they were essentially
Jamaican criminals,
1122
01:03:15,870 --> 01:03:17,870
very hard
and very quick to use the gun.
1123
01:03:17,910 --> 01:03:18,350
very hard
and very quick to use the gun.
1124
01:03:18,390 --> 01:03:20,390
And in Wolverhampton
they kind of had a headquarters,
1125
01:03:20,430 --> 01:03:21,230
And in Wolverhampton
they kind of had a headquarters,
1126
01:03:21,270 --> 01:03:23,270
you could say. Mm-hm.
Yardies had a reputation
1127
01:03:23,310 --> 01:03:25,030
you could say. Mm-hm.
Yardies had a reputation
1128
01:03:25,070 --> 01:03:27,070
for being easily turned
by British police.
1129
01:03:27,110 --> 01:03:27,790
for being easily turned
by British police.
1130
01:03:27,830 --> 01:03:29,830
Some had specially been
brought over by the police,
1131
01:03:29,870 --> 01:03:30,110
Some had specially been
brought over by the police,
1132
01:03:30,150 --> 01:03:31,150
and so even though the Yardies
1133
01:03:31,190 --> 01:03:33,190
had this really vicious reputation
as ruthless killers,
1134
01:03:33,230 --> 01:03:34,110
had this really vicious reputation
as ruthless killers,
1135
01:03:34,150 --> 01:03:36,150
a lot of them
were talking to the police.
1136
01:03:36,190 --> 01:03:36,470
a lot of them
were talking to the police.
1137
01:03:36,510 --> 01:03:38,510
What's your best guess about
what happened to Janine Downes?
1138
01:03:38,550 --> 01:03:40,310
What's your best guess about
what happened to Janine Downes?
1139
01:03:40,350 --> 01:03:41,670
Who murdered her?
1140
01:03:41,710 --> 01:03:43,710
From the evidence I've seen
and the way she was killed,
1141
01:03:43,750 --> 01:03:45,590
From the evidence I've seen
and the way she was killed,
1142
01:03:45,630 --> 01:03:47,630
I don't think it was
a punter-gone-wrong type scenario.
1143
01:03:47,670 --> 01:03:49,670
I don't think it was
a punter-gone-wrong type scenario.
1144
01:03:49,710 --> 01:03:50,350
I don't think it was
a punter-gone-wrong type scenario.
1145
01:03:50,390 --> 01:03:52,390
It's very much
an execution-style killing.
1146
01:03:52,430 --> 01:03:53,510
It's very much
an execution-style killing.
1147
01:03:53,550 --> 01:03:55,390
She'd been taken out
to a specific spot.
1148
01:03:56,630 --> 01:03:58,630
When people would be tortured
or taken away for a beating,
1149
01:03:58,670 --> 01:03:59,710
When people would be tortured
or taken away for a beating,
1150
01:03:59,750 --> 01:04:01,670
they'd be taken away
from Wolverhampton,
1151
01:04:01,710 --> 01:04:03,550
and a lot of bodies are found
1152
01:04:03,590 --> 01:04:05,590
in the lay-bys near Shrewsbury,
near Shipley. You know,
1153
01:04:05,630 --> 01:04:06,990
in the lay-bys near Shrewsbury,
near Shipley. You know,
1154
01:04:07,030 --> 01:04:09,030
all the kind of countrified areas
around Wolverhampton.
1155
01:04:09,070 --> 01:04:10,550
all the kind of countrified areas
around Wolverhampton.
1156
01:04:10,590 --> 01:04:12,590
If we were talking
about rivalry between pimps,
1157
01:04:12,630 --> 01:04:12,910
If we were talking
about rivalry between pimps,
1158
01:04:12,950 --> 01:04:14,910
it may well be some pimps
from outside of town.
1159
01:04:14,950 --> 01:04:16,950
I think it was more of a message
to her pimps than it was
1160
01:04:16,990 --> 01:04:17,950
I think it was more of a message
to her pimps than it was
1161
01:04:17,990 --> 01:04:19,990
to her family or to anybody else.
1162
01:04:20,030 --> 01:04:20,630
to her family or to anybody else.
1163
01:04:20,670 --> 01:04:22,670
If Janine had been murdered
1164
01:04:22,710 --> 01:04:23,350
If Janine had been murdered
1165
01:04:23,390 --> 01:04:25,390
by somebody who was also
a police informant... Yeah.
1166
01:04:25,430 --> 01:04:27,430
by somebody who was also
a police informant... Yeah.
1167
01:04:27,470 --> 01:04:27,750
by somebody who was also
a police informant... Yeah.
1168
01:04:27,790 --> 01:04:29,790
..how seriously would
the police have pursued
1169
01:04:29,830 --> 01:04:30,310
..how seriously would
the police have pursued
1170
01:04:30,350 --> 01:04:32,350
that murder investigation?
Not very.
1171
01:04:32,390 --> 01:04:33,070
that murder investigation?
Not very.
1172
01:04:34,350 --> 01:04:36,350
And this has been documented.
There has been cases
1173
01:04:36,390 --> 01:04:36,670
And this has been documented.
There has been cases
1174
01:04:36,710 --> 01:04:38,710
where Jamaican informants
in the '80s, early '90s
1175
01:04:38,750 --> 01:04:39,270
where Jamaican informants
in the '80s, early '90s
1176
01:04:39,310 --> 01:04:41,310
were specifically brought
from Jamaica to England
1177
01:04:41,350 --> 01:04:42,070
were specifically brought
from Jamaica to England
1178
01:04:42,110 --> 01:04:44,110
to inform on their own communities
and then went on to kill.
1179
01:04:44,150 --> 01:04:45,230
to inform on their own communities
and then went on to kill.
1180
01:04:45,270 --> 01:04:47,270
And it was a cover-up.
There is still that feeling
1181
01:04:47,310 --> 01:04:47,950
And it was a cover-up.
There is still that feeling
1182
01:04:47,990 --> 01:04:49,990
in Wolverhampton that
such a high-profile murder,
1183
01:04:50,030 --> 01:04:50,470
in Wolverhampton that
such a high-profile murder,
1184
01:04:50,510 --> 01:04:52,510
so many years on, so many appeals,
that nothing's happened?
1185
01:04:52,550 --> 01:04:54,310
so many years on, so many appeals,
that nothing's happened?
1186
01:04:54,350 --> 01:04:56,350
But certainly whoever killed her,
you know, is still out there.
1187
01:04:56,390 --> 01:04:56,870
But certainly whoever killed her,
you know, is still out there.
1188
01:05:09,870 --> 01:05:11,870
We've spoken to some really brave
women who've been prepared to talk
1189
01:05:11,910 --> 01:05:13,910
We've spoken to some really brave
women who've been prepared to talk
1190
01:05:13,950 --> 01:05:14,230
We've spoken to some really brave
women who've been prepared to talk
1191
01:05:14,270 --> 01:05:16,270
to us because they want
to help find Janine's killer.
1192
01:05:16,310 --> 01:05:18,310
to us because they want
to help find Janine's killer.
1193
01:05:18,350 --> 01:05:18,750
to us because they want
to help find Janine's killer.
1194
01:05:18,790 --> 01:05:20,790
So putting together
what they've told us
1195
01:05:20,830 --> 01:05:21,390
So putting together
what they've told us
1196
01:05:21,430 --> 01:05:23,430
and everything
that we've discovered,
1197
01:05:23,470 --> 01:05:24,030
and everything
that we've discovered,
1198
01:05:24,070 --> 01:05:26,070
where do you think we are
with Janine's murder?
1199
01:05:26,110 --> 01:05:26,590
where do you think we are
with Janine's murder?
1200
01:05:26,630 --> 01:05:28,630
I think some things
have become clearer in terms of
1201
01:05:28,670 --> 01:05:30,630
I think some things
have become clearer in terms of
1202
01:05:30,670 --> 01:05:32,670
the context in which Janine
is murdered, in the early 1990s.
1203
01:05:32,710 --> 01:05:34,710
the context in which Janine
is murdered, in the early 1990s.
1204
01:05:34,750 --> 01:05:36,590
the context in which Janine
is murdered, in the early 1990s.
1205
01:05:36,630 --> 01:05:38,270
The first thing is simply
1206
01:05:38,310 --> 01:05:40,310
the vulnerability of the women
and girls being exploited,
1207
01:05:40,350 --> 01:05:42,230
the vulnerability of the women
and girls being exploited,
1208
01:05:42,270 --> 01:05:44,270
and secondly, the violence
that permeated their lives.
1209
01:05:44,310 --> 01:05:46,310
and secondly, the violence
that permeated their lives.
1210
01:05:46,350 --> 01:05:46,870
and secondly, the violence
that permeated their lives.
1211
01:05:46,910 --> 01:05:48,910
I always thought that
the sex worker
1212
01:05:48,950 --> 01:05:49,630
I always thought that
the sex worker
1213
01:05:49,670 --> 01:05:51,670
was most at risk from punters,
1214
01:05:51,710 --> 01:05:52,070
was most at risk from punters,
1215
01:05:52,110 --> 01:05:54,110
but we heard story after story
from women about the violence
1216
01:05:54,150 --> 01:05:56,150
but we heard story after story
from women about the violence
1217
01:05:56,190 --> 01:05:57,390
but we heard story after story
from women about the violence
1218
01:05:57,430 --> 01:05:59,430
that they also could experience
from pimps or indeed rival pimps.
1219
01:05:59,470 --> 01:06:01,470
that they also could experience
from pimps or indeed rival pimps.
1220
01:06:01,510 --> 01:06:02,630
that they also could experience
from pimps or indeed rival pimps.
1221
01:06:02,670 --> 01:06:04,670
And who seem to have been trafficked
up and down the country as well.
1222
01:06:04,710 --> 01:06:06,190
And who seem to have been trafficked
up and down the country as well.
1223
01:06:06,230 --> 01:06:08,230
Wolverhampton really emerges from
the stories that we've been told
1224
01:06:08,270 --> 01:06:10,270
Wolverhampton really emerges from
the stories that we've been told
1225
01:06:10,310 --> 01:06:10,590
Wolverhampton really emerges from
the stories that we've been told
1226
01:06:10,630 --> 01:06:12,630
as a kind of Wild West,
a beginning of county lines.
1227
01:06:12,670 --> 01:06:14,630
as a kind of Wild West,
a beginning of county lines.
1228
01:06:14,670 --> 01:06:16,670
Turf wars and police informants.
The Aberdeen Express,
1229
01:06:16,710 --> 01:06:18,710
Turf wars and police informants.
The Aberdeen Express,
1230
01:06:18,750 --> 01:06:19,150
Turf wars and police informants.
The Aberdeen Express,
1231
01:06:19,190 --> 01:06:21,190
where women were being made to go
up to various parts of the country
1232
01:06:21,230 --> 01:06:23,230
where women were being made to go
up to various parts of the country
1233
01:06:23,270 --> 01:06:23,950
where women were being made to go
up to various parts of the country
1234
01:06:23,990 --> 01:06:25,990
where they would sell
sexual services and drugs.
1235
01:06:26,030 --> 01:06:27,230
where they would sell
sexual services and drugs.
1236
01:06:27,270 --> 01:06:29,270
And what about the two people
that we have names for,
1237
01:06:29,310 --> 01:06:30,350
And what about the two people
that we have names for,
1238
01:06:30,390 --> 01:06:31,990
Alun Kyte and Pippy Perry?
1239
01:06:32,030 --> 01:06:34,030
Well, Pippy Perry emerges from
that violent underworld
1240
01:06:34,070 --> 01:06:35,950
Well, Pippy Perry emerges from
that violent underworld
1241
01:06:35,990 --> 01:06:37,990
that we've been describing.
1242
01:06:38,030 --> 01:06:38,270
that we've been describing.
1243
01:06:38,310 --> 01:06:40,310
He's got convictions for kidnap
of sex workers, but crucially,
1244
01:06:40,350 --> 01:06:42,350
He's got convictions for kidnap
of sex workers, but crucially,
1245
01:06:42,390 --> 01:06:42,630
He's got convictions for kidnap
of sex workers, but crucially,
1246
01:06:42,670 --> 01:06:44,670
he's never been convicted of murder.
1247
01:06:44,710 --> 01:06:45,750
he's never been convicted of murder.
1248
01:06:45,790 --> 01:06:47,790
My own sense of the criminology is
that we should rule Pippy Perry out.
1249
01:06:47,830 --> 01:06:49,830
My own sense of the criminology is
that we should rule Pippy Perry out.
1250
01:06:49,870 --> 01:06:51,870
My own sense of the criminology is
that we should rule Pippy Perry out.
1251
01:06:51,910 --> 01:06:52,150
My own sense of the criminology is
that we should rule Pippy Perry out.
1252
01:06:52,190 --> 01:06:54,190
He was seen in the area that night,
1253
01:06:54,230 --> 01:06:54,670
He was seen in the area that night,
1254
01:06:54,710 --> 01:06:56,710
but we don't have any evidence
that shows he was capable of murder.
1255
01:06:56,750 --> 01:06:58,750
but we don't have any evidence
that shows he was capable of murder.
1256
01:06:58,790 --> 01:06:59,270
but we don't have any evidence
that shows he was capable of murder.
1257
01:06:59,310 --> 01:07:01,310
But that doesn't mean to say
that Janine
1258
01:07:01,350 --> 01:07:02,230
But that doesn't mean to say
that Janine
1259
01:07:02,270 --> 01:07:04,270
couldn't have been kidnapped
and killed by a rival pimp.
1260
01:07:04,310 --> 01:07:06,310
couldn't have been kidnapped
and killed by a rival pimp.
1261
01:07:06,350 --> 01:07:06,630
couldn't have been kidnapped
and killed by a rival pimp.
1262
01:07:06,670 --> 01:07:08,670
Well, Joanne, the man
who attacked her,
1263
01:07:08,710 --> 01:07:08,950
Well, Joanne, the man
who attacked her,
1264
01:07:08,990 --> 01:07:10,910
could he be a possible suspect?
1265
01:07:10,950 --> 01:07:12,950
He really is a possible suspect.
1266
01:07:12,990 --> 01:07:13,670
He really is a possible suspect.
1267
01:07:13,710 --> 01:07:15,710
There's someone who's come forward
with information
1268
01:07:15,750 --> 01:07:16,430
There's someone who's come forward
with information
1269
01:07:16,470 --> 01:07:18,470
that she's attacked
and lucky to survive
1270
01:07:18,510 --> 01:07:19,550
that she's attacked
and lucky to survive
1271
01:07:19,590 --> 01:07:21,590
just months after Janine
had been murdered.
1272
01:07:21,630 --> 01:07:23,630
just months after Janine
had been murdered.
1273
01:07:23,670 --> 01:07:23,950
just months after Janine
had been murdered.
1274
01:07:23,990 --> 01:07:25,990
But it seems at the time,
Joanne wasn't listened to.
1275
01:07:26,030 --> 01:07:26,870
But it seems at the time,
Joanne wasn't listened to.
1276
01:07:26,910 --> 01:07:28,910
We've no way of identifying
1277
01:07:28,950 --> 01:07:29,190
We've no way of identifying
1278
01:07:29,230 --> 01:07:31,230
who that rival pimp was
and whether he went on to kill.
1279
01:07:31,270 --> 01:07:33,270
who that rival pimp was
and whether he went on to kill.
1280
01:07:33,310 --> 01:07:33,590
who that rival pimp was
and whether he went on to kill.
1281
01:07:33,630 --> 01:07:35,230
What about Alun Kyte?
1282
01:07:35,270 --> 01:07:37,270
You cannot rule out Alun Kite
simply because there's no DNA
1283
01:07:37,310 --> 01:07:39,270
You cannot rule out Alun Kite
simply because there's no DNA
1284
01:07:39,310 --> 01:07:41,310
that links him to Janine's murder.
1285
01:07:41,350 --> 01:07:41,670
that links him to Janine's murder.
1286
01:07:42,870 --> 01:07:44,870
Alun Kite allegedly boasted
in prison
1287
01:07:44,910 --> 01:07:45,590
Alun Kite allegedly boasted
in prison
1288
01:07:45,630 --> 01:07:47,630
of having killed more women
than he's been convicted of.
1289
01:07:47,670 --> 01:07:49,670
of having killed more women
than he's been convicted of.
1290
01:07:49,710 --> 01:07:51,710
So Alun Kyte remains, for me,
very much a prime suspect.
1291
01:07:51,750 --> 01:07:53,750
So Alun Kyte remains, for me,
very much a prime suspect.
1292
01:07:53,790 --> 01:07:54,070
So Alun Kyte remains, for me,
very much a prime suspect.
1293
01:07:54,110 --> 01:07:56,110
And we mustn't forget
that the person that Mandy said
1294
01:07:56,150 --> 01:07:57,150
And we mustn't forget
that the person that Mandy said
1295
01:07:57,190 --> 01:07:59,190
that she spoke to in the blue car
1296
01:07:59,230 --> 01:07:59,470
that she spoke to in the blue car
1297
01:07:59,510 --> 01:08:01,510
wasn't necessarily the person
who murdered Janine.
1298
01:08:01,550 --> 01:08:02,870
wasn't necessarily the person
who murdered Janine.
1299
01:08:02,910 --> 01:08:04,910
There is at least four hours
unaccounted for
1300
01:08:04,950 --> 01:08:05,550
There is at least four hours
unaccounted for
1301
01:08:05,590 --> 01:08:07,590
in relation to Janine.
So, yeah, we can't rule out
1302
01:08:07,630 --> 01:08:08,470
in relation to Janine.
So, yeah, we can't rule out
1303
01:08:08,510 --> 01:08:10,510
that Janine leaves with the man
in the blue car,
1304
01:08:10,550 --> 01:08:11,430
that Janine leaves with the man
in the blue car,
1305
01:08:11,470 --> 01:08:13,470
but comes back afterwards
and is picked up by someone else.
1306
01:08:13,510 --> 01:08:15,390
but comes back afterwards
and is picked up by someone else.
1307
01:08:15,430 --> 01:08:17,430
So do you think there's still hope
1308
01:08:17,470 --> 01:08:17,710
So do you think there's still hope
1309
01:08:17,750 --> 01:08:19,750
that Janine's murder
could be solved?
1310
01:08:19,790 --> 01:08:20,430
that Janine's murder
could be solved?
1311
01:08:20,470 --> 01:08:22,470
Yeah, I do. Attitudes have changed,
you know.
1312
01:08:22,510 --> 01:08:24,510
Yeah, I do. Attitudes have changed,
you know.
1313
01:08:24,550 --> 01:08:24,830
Yeah, I do. Attitudes have changed,
you know.
1314
01:08:24,870 --> 01:08:26,870
In the 1990s,
if sex workers had been raped
1315
01:08:26,910 --> 01:08:28,910
In the 1990s,
if sex workers had been raped
1316
01:08:28,950 --> 01:08:29,670
In the 1990s,
if sex workers had been raped
1317
01:08:29,710 --> 01:08:31,630
or if they had been beaten up,
1318
01:08:31,670 --> 01:08:33,670
that was seen almost as if it was
a form of occupational hazard.
1319
01:08:33,710 --> 01:08:35,710
that was seen almost as if it was
a form of occupational hazard.
1320
01:08:35,750 --> 01:08:36,150
that was seen almost as if it was
a form of occupational hazard.
1321
01:08:36,190 --> 01:08:38,190
And didn't seem to be believed,
either.
1322
01:08:38,230 --> 01:08:38,470
And didn't seem to be believed,
either.
1323
01:08:38,510 --> 01:08:40,190
No, the word wasn't taken.
1324
01:08:40,230 --> 01:08:42,230
Their evidence wasn't given
the credence
1325
01:08:42,270 --> 01:08:42,510
Their evidence wasn't given
the credence
1326
01:08:42,550 --> 01:08:44,110
it should have been given.
1327
01:08:50,030 --> 01:08:52,030
Women have come forward
and told us things
1328
01:08:52,070 --> 01:08:52,350
Women have come forward
and told us things
1329
01:08:52,390 --> 01:08:54,390
which haven't previously
been in the public domain.
1330
01:08:54,430 --> 01:08:55,350
which haven't previously
been in the public domain.
1331
01:09:02,310 --> 01:09:04,310
So you think there's still hope
that there could be others
1332
01:09:04,350 --> 01:09:04,630
So you think there's still hope
that there could be others
1333
01:09:04,670 --> 01:09:06,350
who come forward
with more information?
1334
01:09:08,110 --> 01:09:10,110
Yes.
And it's still perfectly possible
1335
01:09:10,150 --> 01:09:11,750
Yes.
And it's still perfectly possible
1336
01:09:11,790 --> 01:09:13,790
to get Janine
and her family justice.
1337
01:09:13,830 --> 01:09:14,030
to get Janine
and her family justice.
1338
01:09:47,150 --> 01:09:49,150
Subtitles by
Red Bee Media
1339
01:09:49,190 --> 01:09:50,110
Subtitles by
Red Bee Media