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This programme contains descriptions
and discussions of murder which
some viewers may find upsetting

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Hello there. Hi.

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I'm doing some investigation
into a historic murder

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of a young woman called
Janine Downes in 1991.

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Does that face, that name
mean anything to you?

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She was a sex worker, but her body
was found some 13 miles away

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in Shifnal in a lay-by. No.

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I've heard the name,
but I don't recognise the face.

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This is the lay-by
where Janine was found?

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Yeah. Off the A464 near Shifnal
in Shropshire.

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When was the body found? And by who?

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A couple found her body at nine
o'clock in the morning

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of Saturday, 2nd February, 1991.

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Although it became clear
that she had been murdered

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sometime between midnight
and four o'clock that morning.

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Do we know exactly
where the body was found? Yeah.

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There's a very good police
photograph from the time.

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She was semi-naked.

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She had been strangled,
sexually assaulted and beaten.

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The body hadn't been concealed.
It hadn't been buried.

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It hadn't been hidden.

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And were there any suspects
for the murder?

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There have been a number of people
who've been arrested over the years,

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but no-one has ever been charged
with Janine's murder.

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I know you teach in Birmingham.

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Is that how you found out
about Janine's case?

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Yeah. And as you know,

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I teach and research and write about
violent crime,

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especially about murder
and serial murder.

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She was a sex worker,
and, of course,

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they are one of the most
at-risk groups of being attacked.

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And I suppose I would still like
to see if we could get justice

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for Janine
and for her surviving family.

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And what do we know about her?
Well, actually, precious little.

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We know that she was 22 years old.

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She was a single mum
of three children.

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Her youngest child
was only six months old

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when she was murdered.

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Was she connected to this area?

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No. She sold sexual services in the
All Saints area of Wolverhampton.

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So we're struggling for information
on this occasion.

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We're going to need to divide up
our efforts, I think, on this one.

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I can talk to contacts I've got
in the West Midlands area.

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Well, I can go to the local archives
and do some research

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on Janine's case
and try and get a fuller picture

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about what she was like as a person.

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I've got in touch with some contacts
from the West Midlands.

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Did you find anything?

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So one of the articles I found
in the archives

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is from a 2011 edition,

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and it's an interview that Janine's
72-year-old father gave.

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It's heartbreaking, really.

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It says that Janine's mother died
when Janine was only nine years old,

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and her dad says that Janine
only did what she did

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to make ends meet to feed
her three young children.

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Gosh, that's so sad, isn't it?

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Listen, I think I'm having some luck
with tracking down

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a friend of Janine's from the time.

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Is there anything else
in the article?

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She also wrote a letter to her dad,

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and this is what the letter says.

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"Dear Dad, how are you?

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"You probably don't want
to know me any more, but still.

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"I know you don't agree with what
I've been doing,

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"only I've had money problems.
I don't do it any more, Dad.

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"I've realised how stupid I've been,

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"and I know how ashamed
you all must be.

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"I haven't been to visit you
because I've heard

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"that you're very angry with me.
I can't blame you, though.

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"I'm always thinking of you, Dad.
I love you a lot.

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"Anyway, I'm going to sign off now.
"Your loving daughter, Janine."

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And her dad never got to
speak to her. So sad.

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I found a witness -
apparently one of the last people

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to see Janine alive -
and she is prepared to talk.

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But she's scared,
and she's moved away from the area,

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and she doesn't want to be
identified on camera.

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But she's agreed that we can
pick her up just down the road.

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Janine had a small build,
hadn't she?

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Yes, just five foot tall
and only 8st, apparently.

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So she might not have been
very difficult to overpower. No.

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Maybe her friend Mandy can shed some
light on the night of the murder.

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Mandy, thank you for talking to us.

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That's all right.

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Take a left up here.

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{\an8}This is the route that me and Janine
used to make on a night-time.

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It brings back a lot of memories.

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So you knew Janine.
Can you tell us what she was like?

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She was lovely. She was funny,

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and she weren't scared of anything.

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That's why I felt safe with her.
How did you meet her?

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It was in a hostel.
She was already there,

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and I was put there
because I had nowhere to live,

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and we just got talking.
We'd just laugh at anything.

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She was my best friend.

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And how old were you? 16 or 17.

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We used to go out to work
about eight o'clock on the night.

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We was just used to go and work

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and take all the money back
to the pimps.

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We're coming up to it. I'm sweating.
Are you all right?

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Yeah. Are you sure? Yeah.

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This is the red-light area. Mm-hm.

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It was always
this industrial estate.

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Every corner that you'd go,
you'd see girls and women there.

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This is the Harp pub.
The last place I was with Janine.

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Can you explain what happened
on the night that she disappears?

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We was working.
We'd had a few customers.

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Janine would go with a client,

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I'd stay there waiting
for her to come back,

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and when she come back,
I'd get a client.

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So we thought it was safe.

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It was near this door,
by the bollards.

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A dark blue car turned up.
It was a long car,

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you know like the old Volvo?
He's put the window down.

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I'd never seen him before.

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Me and Janine was stood
side by side.

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I asked him if he wanted business.
He went, "I don't want you."

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He went, "I want her."
Why do you think he wanted Janine?

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I think it was
because Janine was smaller than me.

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She was tiny. I suppose it was
a childlike frame, wasn't it?

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For some of them.

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What sort of time was this?
Between nine and half past nine.

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He's pulled up there

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and then she's gone off
down this way, I think.

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Were you there expecting her
to come back here? Yeah.

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I never went with another punter.

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I just waited there
for her to come back.

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I waited for her till about half 11,
and she never come back.

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I was the last person to see Janine.

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She wasn't seen after that night.
She was took from here.

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How do you feel being
back outside the Harp pub?

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Lump in my throat.

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Painful just looking at it,
because it haunts me all the time.

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It really does.
And I do feel really guilty.

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But if I could just have an hour
with her, like, and talk to her.

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What would you say?
That I miss her, and I'm sorry.

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Why are you sorry?
Because it wasn't me.

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I didn't have children then.
She did.

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But I do miss her.
She was my leaning post. Yeah.

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And the police did say whoever
did it, they was angry at her.

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She didn't stand a chance,
because they battered her.

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She didn't deserve that.

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She was murdered
with so much violence.

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But who would want to do that?

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Mils. Come and have a listen
to this judge's ruling from 2023.

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Listen to what she says.

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In December 1993, you murdered
a woman by manually strangling her.

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In March 1994,
you murdered another female,

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strangling her with a cord
from her hooded top.

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You had a history
of killing two women

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and inflicting very serious violence

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and sexual violence
on a third woman.

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You still pose a significant risk

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to members of the public
of serious harm.

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So this relates to a historic rape
committed on a young boy.

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Now, that offender
is called Alun Kyte.

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But mention was made of two women
that he murders.

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Now those two women were Samo Paull
and Tracey Turner.

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1993, 1994,

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so a couple of years after
the murder of Janine Downes.

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Samo and Tracey were sex workers
in the Midlands,

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and prior to Kyte's conviction,

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there was a lot of media speculation
that sex workers

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in the West Midlands
were being targeted by

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a serial killer called
the Midlands Ripper.

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Oh, I found articles about

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the Midlands Ripper
in the archives. Here.

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Ah. And this is Alun Kyte.
He's a differentiated offender,

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so he's convicted of the murders of
two women, Samo and Tracey,

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and was also being given a sentence
for the rape of a boy.

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But what I also noticed
was that the MO

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of the murders of the two women

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was not dissimilar
to what happened to Janine.

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That's absolutely right.

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They had all been strangled

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miles from the place
where they were dumped.

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And indeed, in the 1990s, the NCIS,

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the National Criminal
Intelligence Services,

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grouped together those two murders
with the murder of Janine Downes.

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So he is definitely someone
that we should be looking into.

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I've tracked down
a former detective inspector

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who worked on the Alun Kyte case.

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Perhaps he can clarify things
for us.

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There you go, Mick.

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So how did you get involved
in the Alun Kyte case?

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{\an8}I knew of the two murders Alun Kyte
was later convicted of,

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which was Samo Paull
in December '93,

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Tracey Turner in March '94.
Tracey had been raped.

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The DNA sample was taken,

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but it didn't get us anywhere at
the time, which was a frustration.

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Then in December '97,

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Alun Kyte raped another girl
in Weston-super-Mare.

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Avon and Somerset police
got there very quickly

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and they arrested him
as he tried to escape,

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and that gave us the opportunity
to get a DNA hit,

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which was a link
to Tracey Turner's murder.

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Yeah. There were
so many similarities

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in terms of abduction, about
where the bodies were left.

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This is only 13, 14 years on
since Peter Sutcliffe, you know,

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who killed so many women.

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And the concern was, we don't know

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if there's another Peter Sutcliffe
in this country.

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You've met Kyte,
you've watched interviews.

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What was he like?
He's inadequate in many ways.

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He's a small guy. He's arrogant.
He puffs his chest out.

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He thinks he's a bigger man
than he is.

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00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,039
On top of that, he's manipulative.
He's a misogynist. He's violent.

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He doesn't accept any responsibility
for what he does.

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He's got to be
the most dangerous level of

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00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:34,319
the people that we deal with.
What did you discern from the MO

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that Kyte uses in both murders?

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There are distinct similarities
between the two murders.

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He strangles by ligature
but he also attacks with a knife.

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00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,239
He also steals.

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He would take trophies
from the victims

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and will actually drive them
across the whole Midlands

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and leave them abandoned and dumped.

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So Samo and Tracey's bodies
were deposited

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in the Leicestershire area.

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I'm interested
in the Janine Downes case.

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She went missing
in the Wolverhampton area.

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00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:09,639
Does that rule Kyte out? No.
He's completely transient.

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He would move from place to place
using the motorway network.

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He knew it very well.
Janine Downes - physically slight,

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so like Samo Paull.
Strangled, stripped naked.

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Does the MO fit, Mick?
My memory of Janine Downes

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was exactly as you described -

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abducted, found
in a different location.

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Strangulation by ligature from
the rear.

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That's exactly what Tracey had.

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The theft of clothing,
starts to get more interesting.

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00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,559
So there's a lot of similarities.
We're still looking at her murder.

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00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,679
It's unsolved. Would that imply that

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there just really wasn't any DNA
at the crime scene?

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00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:50,439
I would assume they've gone back

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00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,479
and looked at every single exhibit
that's been recovered,

236
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,239
and they've looked at
the forensic opportunities.

237
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,519
If there's nothing to go on,
you can't go on it.

238
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,399
And so, in the case of Janine,

239
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,000
I can only assume
that there is nothing available.

240
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,119
Mick, could Alun Kyte have murdered
Janine Downes?

241
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:14,359
Without question. If you look at
the nature of Janine's death,

242
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,079
there are huge similarities.
Question is, do we know?

243
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,159
We don't. Because you need evidence.
You need fact.

244
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,400
But if your question to me is could
he have, yes, of course he could.

245
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,199
Mick Creedon's still convinced
that Alun Kyte

246
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,839
is a really good suspect
in Janine's murder,

247
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,920
but there just isn't any evidence
that can connect him.

248
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,359
Would it be worth showing
a photo of Kyte to Mandy to see

249
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:55,839
if she might recognise him

250
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,680
as the man who picked Janine up
in the blue car? Good idea.

251
00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,719
Hi, Mandy.
Thanks for seeing me again.

252
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:16,440
And I'm sorry it's so late,
but I have one question to ask.

253
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,639
Is this the man that was driving
the long blue car

254
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,439
that Janine got into
that night back in 1991?

255
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,160
Take your time. Take your time.

256
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,080
No. No, not at all.

257
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,039
That's not the man
that pulled up that night.

258
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,999
You're sure? Yeah.
The police have asked me that.

259
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,839
I didn't get a good look at him,
but that's not him.

260
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:45,720
OK, thanks.

261
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,239
Mandy is sure that Alun Kyte

262
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,759
wasn't the man who picked
Janine up that night.

263
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,040
So where do we go from here?

264
00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,399
I think we need to speak
to Graham Hill,

265
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,720
ex senior detective
who's led murder investigations.

266
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,080
Let's see what advice he might have.

267
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,079
Mandy didn't recognise
the photograph

268
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:22,839
that I showed her of Alun Kyte

269
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,479
as being the man
that's driving the blue car

270
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,679
on the night
that Janine disappears.

271
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,959
So does that rule Kyte out
as far as you're concerned?

272
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,839
Well, I don't think it rules him
out. The interesting thing is

273
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,919
that the pathologist
had Janine's time of death

274
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,479
somewhere between midnight and 4am.

275
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,959
We've got Mandy saying
that she saw Janine drive off

276
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:49,479
with a man that she spoke to briefly
at around 9.30,

277
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,519
and that she then left that vicinity
at around 11.30.

278
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,519
Yeah. So it's conceivable
that Janine came back to

279
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,159
that particular area
and was then picked up by Kyte.

280
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,639
So that still leaves
a window of opportunity

281
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,359
for Janine to have been picked up
by him or someone else.

282
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:11,039
Yeah. And that's consistent with
what the pathologist tells us.

283
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,719
In what way? Are we to believe
that he picked her up at 9.30,

284
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,119
drove around for 2.5 hours
before he killed her?

285
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:20,359
Mm-hm? That doesn't seem feasible.

286
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:22,279
It's more likely he would have
picked her up

287
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:23,839
and then killed her quite quickly.

288
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,759
Because how would he control her
within the vehicle?

289
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,639
So would Kyte still be
a person of interest to you?

290
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,839
Oh, absolutely.
This guy's got it all going on

291
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,839
in terms of an offender.
You've got to go back in time

292
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:40,279
and look at what the National
Criminal Intelligence Service NCIS

293
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:41,679
did in the early '90s.

294
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,039
They linked the murders
of Tracey Turner

295
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,519
and Samo Paull
with Janine's murder,

296
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:52,239
and they would have done that using
a very strong linking criteria.

297
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,639
What would examples
of linking criteria be?

298
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,079
Body deposition site,
method of abduction,

299
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,399
how the person was killed.

300
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,839
But there doesn't seem to be
any physical evidence

301
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,719
to link Alun Kyte
with Janine Downes.

302
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,879
He was never charged
and convicted of that murder.

303
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,639
There's this assumption
that every murder scene has DNA,

304
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:17,079
has forensic, has fibres, has all of
the CSI factors going on,

305
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,319
and sometimes that's simply not
the case.

306
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,279
Sometimes it's to do with
how the body is left,

307
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,999
the weather conditions, how good
the forensic examination is.

308
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,199
And sometimes you just don't have
that evidence.

309
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:30,639
So we can't rule him out.

310
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:35,119
But what more can we do
in terms of taking the case forward?

311
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:37,279
The bottom line
for a murder investigation

312
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,119
is that you've got to explore
all investigative opportunities

313
00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:44,119
and all avenues or lines of inquiry.

314
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:47,519
I think what you need to do is
park up Alun Kyte for the moment,

315
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,599
and go back and find out more
about what was going on

316
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,039
for those sex workers
in the Wolverhampton area

317
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,559
at around about the time that Janine
went missing and was killed.

318
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,559
Get some context around
Janine's world

319
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,399
and the circumstances
in which she went missing.

320
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,199
Information is key here.

321
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,719
I know attitudes have changed
since the 1990s,

322
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,639
but it has been hard to get people
to talk to us.

323
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,479
It has. And Mandy, I thought,

324
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,559
was so brave and courageous
to talk to us,

325
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,279
but she was still fearful
and scared.

326
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,560
So it's going to be difficult
to find people to talk to us.

327
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,519
I've managed to find
a former police officer

328
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,559
who worked on the streets
of Wolverhampton

329
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,559
at the same time Janine did.

330
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,080
Perhaps he knew Janine
and can tell us more about her.

331
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,639
Paul, what exactly does
a police officer

332
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,759
working on a vice unit do?

333
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:01,999
We're there for various reasons.

334
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,559
The first really
is to keep the streets clear

335
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,479
so if people are walking
up and down the streets,

336
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,999
they're not going to be harassed
by kerb-crawlers.

337
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,759
{\an8}We dealt with girls who were being
forced to work as prostitutes.

338
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,399
There was a place in Wolverhampton
called the Rollerdrome

339
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:18,999
where a lot of girls
were picked up.

340
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,719
They were bought presents,
taken to nice places,

341
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,759
and then there was a reward
to be paid back,

342
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:25,719
and that was to work the street.

343
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:27,959
We had to try and save those girls,

344
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,919
prevent them being hurt
and get them off the streets.

345
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,159
What was the red-light area like
back then?

346
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,679
It was a large area.
It was fairly rough.

347
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,239
There were girls out
almost every night of the week.

348
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,319
Almost every girl had got a pimp.

349
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,599
Well, if we look at 1991,
we made arrests

350
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,999
of 216 different girls. Gosh.

351
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,399
And one of those girls
that was selling sexual services,

352
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:58,119
that did get arrested on
the streets, was Janine Downes.

353
00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:01,639
What was she like? She was a quiet
girl who wanted to keep to herself.

354
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,359
When she smiled,
she'd got a lovely smile.

355
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:07,119
There's a picture here now on
the table, and I see Janine smiling.

356
00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:09,199
And when she smiled,
it was a lovely smile,

357
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,519
but she didn't want me
to know much about her.

358
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:12,999
That could have been because

359
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,479
that was Janine's way
of getting through life.

360
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,360
She didn't want me to know who
was running her, who her pimp was.

361
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,639
Were you surprised
when Janine was found murdered?

362
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,919
I actually identified Janine's body.

363
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,759
We identified her on the mortuary
slab at the hospital in Telford.

364
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,759
Gosh. How did you feel about that?
It's never gone away,

365
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,119
I've got to be fair.

366
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:42,039
I was perhaps one of the last people
to see her before the postmortem.

367
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,160
It never goes away.
It lives with you.

368
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,319
I went with two of
my women officers.

369
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,519
We were taken by West Mercia officer
when we got there

370
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,519
into the mortuary at the hospital.

371
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,959
A towel or a blanket was pulled back
from her face

372
00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,879
down to the top of her neck.

373
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:03,199
And we looked at it and straight
away all three of us says,

374
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:04,400
"It's Janine Downes."

375
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,320
When you see something like that,
it was quite a shock.

376
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,879
And the drive back,
it was a drive in silence

377
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,879
as we drove back to Wolverhampton.

378
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,399
We were all upset.
She was one of the girls,

379
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,039
as I believed, our job
was to look after,

380
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:20,519
and we hadn't looked after her.

381
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,079
Somebody, whoever it was had...
Had killed her.

382
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,399
And even to this day,
I look back on it now and think,

383
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,400
"Well, did I do my job properly?"

384
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,879
With your experience,
if a body is left

385
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,759
in the circumstances
in which Janine's body was found,

386
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:43,639
what does that imply about
the person who killed her?

387
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,559
She's way, way from the vice area.

388
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,559
As the girls want to try
and maximise their income,

389
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,599
they're not going to go to Shifnal,

390
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,119
which is going to take them
40 minutes each way.

391
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:56,959
So they want to go to areas
of Wolverhampton

392
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,439
because they can be back in the area
in five minutes.

393
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,599
Janine wouldn't gladly
have gone there to go with a punter.

394
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,559
So perhaps the doors were locked,
she was taken there,

395
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,399
but then again, it could be a pimp

396
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,759
who has perhaps had
a domestic argument with her.

397
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,439
Whatever -
she's not earning enough money,

398
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,679
given a good hiding, gone too far

399
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,440
and taken the body
and dumped it out there.

400
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,239
It could be a pimp.
It could be a punter.

401
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,519
It could be anybody.
I just hope that one day,

402
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,240
the person who's done it
is convicted and goes to prison.

403
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,519
What did Paul Snape say?
Well, he was interesting.

404
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,679
He thought it unlikely Janine
would have willingly gone with

405
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,439
a punter so far away from
the red-light district,

406
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,279
when she could earn more money
by staying closer.

407
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,079
He did mention the possibility
of her pimp,

408
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,280
and that's an avenue
we haven't yet explored.

409
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,879
I've found someone on social media
who said she was working

410
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,999
in the Wolverhampton
red-light district

411
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,280
around the time Janine was murdered.
I'm going to reach out to her.

412
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,959
Joanne, would you be happy
to share your experiences

413
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,000
with me and David, and anything
that you could tell us about Janine?

414
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,079
I've reached a bit of a dead end
and I need some help.

415
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,319
Can you do a bit of digging?
Sure, yeah.

416
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,240
OK. Give us a call
and let me know how you get on.

417
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,079
{\an8}Great. Um, I will send you
a location by text,

418
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,480
if that's OK.

419
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,120
Bye.

420
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:04,559
Any news? Any developments?
Yes. She's agreed to meet us,

421
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,719
but she wants to remain anonymous.

422
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,879
She says she can tell us more
about what was happening

423
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,800
in the red-light district
at the time.

424
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,040
{\an8}Joanne, thank you
for sharing your story with us.

425
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,239
When did you go out
onto the streets?

426
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,200
When did that take place?

427
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:35,720
Did you know Janine?

428
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,279
What led you to start working
on the streets

429
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,520
in Wolverhampton's
red-light district?

430
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:06,880
How old were you?

431
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,160
Do you feel that you got groomed
into what happened to you?

432
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,840
So the man you first met
was part of a gang?

433
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,519
At what point, Joanne,

434
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,480
did this man become
physically violent towards you?

435
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,959
Did anyone ever try to snatch you?

436
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:09,320
What happened?

437
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,560
Did you take this to the police?

438
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,920
So you were attacked very close to
where Janine was last seen alive?

439
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,319
And were lucky to have survived
that attack.

440
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,519
That seems to me like

441
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,200
a powerful piece of evidence
for no-one to have listened to.

442
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,799
Do you feel that Janine's murder

443
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,840
was investigated as fully
as it could have been?

444
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,479
What did you think about
what Joanne told us?

445
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,039
I thought it was really powerful.

446
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,919
I was quite shocked by
the vulnerability

447
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,279
of the girls working the streets.

448
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,839
And she told us about
that horrific attack

449
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,079
by a rival pimp just months
after Janine was murdered.

450
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,559
Yeah. She couldn't name the person
that attacked her.

451
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,039
But if the police had acted
at the time,

452
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,119
he perhaps could have
been identified,

453
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,480
and so it's a missed opportunity.

454
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,440
PHONE VIBRATES

455
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,439
Hi, Kate. What have you got for us?

456
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,919
I've just spoken to someone
who knew Janine well.

457
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,319
She worked with her
in the red-light district.

458
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:19,959
She doesn't want to be identified,

459
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,519
but has told me I can share with you
what she said.

460
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,599
How did they know her?
She met her when she was a teenager.

461
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,719
Both of them had been in care.

462
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,479
Then they started working
the streets around the same time.

463
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,559
What did she say Janine was like?

464
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:39,599
She said that she was tough,
she was loud, she was bubbly.

465
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,479
But she also said she had
a sensitive side.

466
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,879
She said sometimes you had
to be tough on the streets,

467
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,479
but she had a sensitive side
like they all did.

468
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,359
Did you get a sense of some of
the pimps

469
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,359
that were working
in the red-light area?

470
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,959
Was there any information
of that kind?

471
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,359
She said the pimps
that controlled Janine,

472
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,080
were based in this high rise
in Wolverhampton,

473
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,879
She did say that she had an idea
of who might have killed Janine.

474
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,359
Oh! And who was that?

475
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,800
Well, his name's a local criminal
called Pippy Perry.

476
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,639
Pippy Perry? Pippy Perry.
That's right.

477
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,839
And he was linked to pimps with
Wolverhampton in the early '90s.

478
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,359
Now, I've spoken to Joanne

479
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,199
and she says he is not the man
that attacked her.

480
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,159
So Perry
is another potential suspect.

481
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,239
And why does she think he might
be responsible for Janine's murder?

482
00:34:31,240 --> 00:34:35,759
She said he was violent. He bullied
the girls. He'd beat them up.

483
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,439
He'd drag them down alleyways near
the Harp Inn and steal their money,

484
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,559
which would get them
in trouble with their pimp.

485
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,519
She said he was in the area
the night Janine disappeared.

486
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,759
Did he have criminal convictions?

487
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,199
He's got convictions
for violence against women.

488
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,599
He's got convictions
for knife-point robbery.

489
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:01,519
Before 1991,
he was convicted of the kidnapping

490
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,799
of two sex workers
from Birmingham at knife-point.

491
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,679
Was he ever a person of interest
to the police?

492
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,199
Well, I'm not sure. That's
something we might have to find out.

493
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,559
He did have an interest in Janine, apparently.

494
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,239
He was seen a lot of the time
with her,

495
00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:20,759
but he definitely wasn't her pimp.

496
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,519
And what's happened to him now?

497
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,079
Well, he has passed away.
He died in 2017.

498
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,599
And did she ever report any
of these concerns to the police?

499
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,079
She did. She said that
one of the appeals,

500
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,559
on an anniversary
of Janine's murder,

501
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,639
she did get in touch
with the police.

502
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,119
And of course, she said,
"Look, I've got no proof,"

503
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,239
but she used to see Pippy
around Janine a lot,

504
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:47,999
and that he operated in that area
and was violent to the girls.

505
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,559
She told police this.
Apparently they came back to her

506
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,079
and said that they don't think
that her gut feeling,

507
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:55,479
I guess, had much weight.

508
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,759
But she doesn't know whether
they checked him out for an alibi.

509
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,880
OK, Kate, thanks so much.
That's really helpful. Thank you.

510
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,239
That's a completely new person.
Yeah.

511
00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:09,639
This guy, Pippy Perry,

512
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:15,079
he does seem to have previous
for abducting, hurting sex workers,

513
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:16,999
and he clearly knew Janine.

514
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,879
So maybe we've got to find out more
about Pippy Perry.

515
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:21,439
How would we do that?

516
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,119
Well, the first thing that strikes
me is that there would be

517
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:29,000
a number of journalists who would be
covering the Wolverhampton area.

518
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,119
I know somebody that might be able
to flesh the story out

519
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,400
that Kate's been given.
I think. I'll approach him.

520
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,040
Hello.

521
00:36:57,240 --> 00:36:59,520
Thanks for agreeing to meet with me.

522
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,239
What can you tell me
about Pippy Perry?

523
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:05,959
{\an8}Steven Perry mixed with
a certain crowd.

524
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,919
{\an8}I met him a few times.

525
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,159
He was a pretty, you know,
nondescript young guy, really.

526
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,199
He knew people who were of violence,

527
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,079
but certainly wasn't a name
that you would say

528
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,679
someone to be scared of
or someone dangerous,

529
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,399
though he mixed in those circles.

530
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,319
I've got a picture of him here
that I've kind of blown up

531
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,079
if you haven't seen one before,

532
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,279
but I certainly got the impression
that he was more a follower,

533
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,999
rather than being the initiator
or some kind of leader.

534
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,039
I'm getting the idea you don't think
he carried out this murder.

535
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,079
He was convicted, though,
of kidnapping sex workers,

536
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,159
and we've heard he was brutal
towards them.

537
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,559
There is some violence
in his background,

538
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,999
but not likely to be a suspect
in Janine Downes's murder?

539
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:49,280
I doubt it.

540
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:54,279
Amardeep, you were born and bred
in Wolverhampton.

541
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,759
When Janine was murdered,
what was the word in the street

542
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,919
that you were able to pick up
as a journalist?

543
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:03,519
It was big news in Wolverhampton.
The prostitutes in Wolverhampton

544
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,719
weren't viewed badly, you know,
they were local girls.

545
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:09,999
They were honest girls in a lot
of ways, and they were our girls.

546
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,919
These are Wolverhampton girls.

547
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,719
It really struck a nerve with people
in Wolverhampton.

548
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:16,799
To this day. The name Janine Downes

549
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,439
and the horrific circumstances
around it,

550
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,719
people still talk about it.
And it certainly changed

551
00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:23,359
the whole red-light scene
in Wolverhampton.

552
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,399
In what way? It broke it down, really.

553
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,279
It was the beginning of the end.

554
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,199
Wolverhampton in the early
'90s really was a centre

555
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,639
for prostitution and also a centre
for drug distribution.

556
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,719
The hard drugs were appearing
on the scene, gangs were forming.

557
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:40,599
Wolverhampton's drug tentacles
reached as far as Aberdeen

558
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,159
and further north,
and that really was

559
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,679
a phenomenon unique
to Wolverhampton.

560
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,159
The prostitution scene in
Wolverhampton was well established,

561
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,999
well organised. Some of the girls
started going up to Aberdeen

562
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,079
to sell themselves, I suppose,
to the oil workers.

563
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,279
They'd heard that there's oil
workers there, they've got money.

564
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,359
Then their pimps realised,
"Well, hang on -

565
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:01,759
"while you're going up there,

566
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,519
"why don't you take some heroin
up there and start selling that?"

567
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,839
And was this a well-known phenomenon
at the time?

568
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,119
Oh, yeah. I mean, it was given
a name - the Aberdeen Express

569
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,319
or the Aberdeen Run.
And do you think Janine

570
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,159
could have been caught up
in this Aberdeen Express?

571
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,559
It's very likely. In Wolverhampton
the pimps were families

572
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,159
as opposed to an individual,

573
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,439
and these families would
use these girls as commodities

574
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,919
to get to another pimp.
If you had a rival pimp,

575
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,079
you wouldn't touch the pimp,
but you'd do something to the girls.

576
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,039
Do we know who was pimping Janine?

577
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,399
There's various names
been bandied about,

578
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,879
and chances are she may have had
a few pimps.

579
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:41,599
Wolverhampton in the early '90s
was very much a Yardie stronghold,

580
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,319
but they were essentially
Jamaican criminals,

581
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,839
very hard
and very quick to use the gun.

582
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,719
And in Wolverhampton
they kind of had a headquarters,

583
00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:53,519
you could say. Mm-hm.
Yardies had a reputation

584
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,279
for being easily turned
by British police.

585
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,439
Some had specially been
brought over by the police,

586
00:39:58,440 --> 00:39:59,639
and so even though the Yardies

587
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,599
had this really vicious reputation
as ruthless killers,

588
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,959
a lot of them
were talking to the police.

589
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,839
What's your best guess about
what happened to Janine Downes?

590
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,159
Who murdered her?

591
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,079
From the evidence I've seen
and the way she was killed,

592
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:18,839
I don't think it was
a punter-gone-wrong type scenario.

593
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,999
It's very much
an execution-style killing.

594
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,920
She'd been taken out
to a specific spot.

595
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,199
When people would be tortured
or taken away for a beating,

596
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,199
they'd be taken away
from Wolverhampton,

597
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,039
and a lot of bodies are found

598
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,479
in the lay-bys near Shrewsbury,
near Shipley. You know,

599
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,039
all the kind of countrified areas
around Wolverhampton.

600
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,119
If we were talking
about rivalry between pimps,

601
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,399
it may well be some pimps
from outside of town.

602
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,479
I think it was more of a message
to her pimps than it was

603
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,159
to her family or to anybody else.

604
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,839
If Janine had been murdered

605
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,039
by somebody who was also
a police informant... Yeah.

606
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,799
...how seriously would
the police have pursued

607
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,600
that murder investigation?
Not very.

608
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,039
And this has been documented.
There has been cases

609
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,759
where Jamaican informants
in the '80s, early '90s

610
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,559
were specifically brought
from Jamaica to England

611
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,719
to inform on their own communities
and then went on to kill.

612
00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:16,439
And it was a cover-up.
There is still that feeling

613
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,959
in Wolverhampton that
such a high-profile murder,

614
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,799
so many years on, so many appeals,
that nothing's happened?

615
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,400
But certainly whoever killed her,
you know, is still out there.

616
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,519
We've spoken to some really brave
women who've been prepared to talk

617
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:47,239
to us because they want
to help find Janine's killer.

618
00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:49,879
So putting together
what they've told us

619
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,519
and everything
that we've discovered,

620
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,079
where do you think we are
with Janine's murder?

621
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,119
I think some things
have become clearer in terms of

622
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:05,119
the context in which Janine
is murdered, in the early 1990s.

623
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:06,759
The first thing is simply

624
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,719
the vulnerability of the women
and girls being exploited,

625
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:15,359
and secondly, the violence
that permeated their lives.

626
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,159
I always thought that
the sex worker

627
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,559
was most at risk from punters,

628
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:25,879
but we heard story after story
from women about the violence

629
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:31,119
that they also could experience
from pimps or indeed rival pimps.

630
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,679
And who seem to have been trafficked
up and down the country as well.

631
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:39,039
Wolverhampton really emerges from
the stories that we've been told

632
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:43,119
as a kind of Wild West,
a beginning of county lines.

633
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,639
Turf wars and police informants.
The Aberdeen Express,

634
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:52,439
where women were being made to go
up to various parts of the country

635
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,719
where they would sell
sexual services and drugs.

636
00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:58,879
And what about the two people
that we have names for,

637
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:00,479
Alun Kyte and Pippy Perry?

638
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,479
Well, Pippy Perry emerges from
that violent underworld

639
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,559
that we've been describing.

640
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:11,119
He's got convictions for kidnap
of sex workers, but crucially,

641
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,239
he's never been convicted of murder.

642
00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:20,559
My own sense of the criminology is
that we should rule Pippy Perry out.

643
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,159
He was seen in the area that night,

644
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,759
but we don't have any evidence
that shows he was capable of murder.

645
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,719
But that doesn't mean to say
that Janine

646
00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:34,959
couldn't have been kidnapped
and killed by a rival pimp.

647
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,359
Well, Joanne, the man
who attacked her,

648
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,439
could he be a possible suspect?

649
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,159
He really is a possible suspect.

650
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,919
There's someone who's come forward
with information

651
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,039
that she's attacked
and lucky to survive

652
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:52,319
just months after Janine
had been murdered.

653
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,399
But it seems at the time,
Joanne wasn't listened to.

654
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,479
We've no way of identifying

655
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:02,119
who that rival pimp was
and whether he went on to kill.

656
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:03,719
What about Alun Kyte?

657
00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:07,799
You cannot rule out Alun Kite
simply because there's no DNA

658
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,200
that links him to Janine's murder.

659
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,079
Alun Kite allegedly boasted
in prison

660
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:18,159
of having killed more women
than he's been convicted of.

661
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,279
So Alun Kyte remains, for me,
very much a prime suspect.

662
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,679
And we mustn't forget
that the person that Mandy said

663
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,759
that she spoke to in the blue car

664
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,359
wasn't necessarily the person
who murdered Janine.

665
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,039
There is at least four hours
unaccounted for

666
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,959
in relation to Janine.
So, yeah, we can't rule out

667
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,919
that Janine leaves with the man
in the blue car,

668
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,919
but comes back afterwards
and is picked up by someone else.

669
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,079
So do you think there's still hope

670
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,919
that Janine's murder
could be solved?

671
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:53,239
Yeah, I do. Attitudes have changed,
you know.

672
00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:58,199
In the 1990s,
if sex workers had been raped

673
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,119
or if they had been beaten up,

674
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,639
that was seen almost as if it was
a form of occupational hazard.

675
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,719
And didn't seem to be believed, either.

676
00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:08,679
No, the word wasn't taken.

677
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,799
Their evidence wasn't given
the credence

678
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,640
it should have been given.

679
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,839
Women have come forward
and told us things

680
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,880
which haven't previously
been in the public domain.

681
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:32,879
So you think there's still hope
that there could be others

682
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:34,880
who come forward
with more information?

683
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:40,239
Yes.
And it's still perfectly possible

684
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:42,320
to get Janine
and her family justice.

685
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,640
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