Previously on "The Girl from Plainville"...
- I'm going to direct your attention
to July 12th of 2014.
That was the last day you saw your son alive.
How was he that day?
I know my son.
And he didn't want to die.
Not that day.
- I'm here because of Michelle Carter.
I don't like seeing innocent people prosecuted.
I want to help this girl.
- 48 Hours wants to talk to me.
- You gonna do it? -He's not just
a dead kid on the news, you know.
He's Coco.
Go away.
- What's wrong?
- I'm the murderer's sister, that's what's wrong!
Get the fuck out!
Can you read the highlighted text message
from Michelle?
- "Then I am left crying in bed at night
"because I have no one
"and I have no plans, no future.
I am nothing."
- If you ever tell anyone about me,
I will never, ever fucking talk to you again!
Got it?
Your text freaked me out.
Call me back.
- I'm sorry.
I didn't know you cared that much.
How could you say that?
I don't even have anybody's number.
If something happened to you, I wouldn't know who to call.
- I know, I know, I'm--
I'm sorry, okay?
- Is this just a game to you?
- No.
- Then tell me what to do.
Nothing.
You've done plenty.
- What does that mean?
You've been here for me.
You've listened.
It's just not enough.
I'm never satisfied.
I'm stuck.
In my own little reality,
and I thought everything was good, but...
It's not.
- I'm not going to leave you.
You need me.
Stay.
Conrad?
- Carter has waived her right to a jury trial,
which means the judge alone will decide
whether or not she is guilty.
If convicted, she faces up to 20 years in prison.
Could you please describe
your educational background?
I went to Harvard
and Case Western Reserve Medical School,
researching the psychophysiology of anxiety.
- And can you please list and describe
your professional activities?
- Oh, golly.
There's a lot of them.
I have been practicing psychiatry
full time since 1968.
I teach.
I have a subspecialty in clinical psychopharmacology.
- And what is that?
- It's the study of the effect of drugs
on the actual clinical, real-life behavior of people.
- And have you given any presentations
for any governmental bodies?
Yes.
- Well, thank you for carving out
some time with us today, Dr. Breggin.
You're quite a busy man.
- Of course. Thank you for the invitation.
- Your Honor.
- Move it along.
Uh, Dr. Breggin,
for our non-medical experts in the room,
could you illustrate, uh, for us what an SSRI is
and how it affects the brain?
The SSRI is a selective
serotonin reuptake inhibitor.
- And what is serotonin?
- Serotonin is a neurotransmitter
that originates deep in the brain.
It can affect our judgment,
love, and empathy.
When serotonin is naturally created by the brain,
these--these receptors fire.
And the idea behind people who are depressed or--or angry
is that maybe the feed to the receptor gets backed up.
The brain isn't doing its job.
- Right, and the SSRI, it--what?
The SSRI,
like Prozac and all SSRIs,
blocks the removal of serotonin.
And unfortunately,
this is very unstable
because the brain reacts to this as a toxic intrusion.
- And how does the brain react to this toxic intrusion?
After the first dose even,
the brain stops producing serotonin.
- So instead of creating a clear pathway
for the serotonin to enter the brain,
Prozac and other SSRIs can actually halt
the natural production of serotonin entirely?
- Yes, it's possible.
Oh.
- Does the FDA identify the SSRIs in a specific way?
- They developed a black box warning that remains
the highest level class warning for all of these drugs.
- Does Celexa have a black box warning?
- Yes, it does.
And do you know specifically
what the black box warning is on Celexa?
- The black box warning specifically says
that there's an increased risk of suicide
in people aged 24 and younger.
And to the best of your knowledge,
was Conrad Roy III
on Celexa at the time of his death?
- Yes, he was.
Thank you. No further questions.
We'll break for lunch.
- Am I really selfish?
- No.
Why?
- Well, for wanting to kill myself so bad
and dragging you along with all this.
- No.
You're not selfish.
Don't ever think that.
And you're not dragging me along.
I chose to stay.
- I don't want to fail again.
That's what I'm scared of.
- Obviously, you don't really want to die then.
Because you wouldn't be scared to try.
You'd want to try anything as much as you could.
- I guess you're partially right.
I'm just still researching and hoping that
I find a better way.
- I am so right.
Part of me wants you to try something and then fail.
Just so you could go get help.
I love you.
Say it back.
- I love you too.
- I'm gonna turn in.
Okay.
- You good?
- Yeah, I'm good.
- Don't stay up too late, okay?
- Hey.
Can I get a beer?
- Is it over?
- Lunch.
Thank you.
Some of this stuff this doctor's saying...
We thought we'd be doing the right thing.
Right?
- Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know.
You know what I can't stop thinking about?
- What?
- The fucking guacamole.
- I mean, how the hell has this kid
never had guacamole before?
Well, I mean, it's not like we're known for it here.
- Fair.
Your mom says you're running.
You even talked to my mom?
- Yeah, you sent her over to check on me.
- I just didn't like the idea of you being alone, that's all.
I'm training for the Boston Marathon.
- You?
Yeah?
- You who drives two blocks.
- I who used to drive two blocks.
- They say it makes your nipples bleed.
They're not lying.
Hot.
I'm doing it for suicide awareness.
Running it, I mean.
You know, raising money for it.
- That's good, Co.
Yeah.
- He'd be real proud.
I tried drinking all the water I could,
but nothing happened.
- What the fuck is that?
Why didn't you tell me you tried?
All of a sudden, you're trying and serious about it?
- I'm sorry, I want to tell you the truth,
but I don't want to scare you.
- I want you to always tell me the truth.
Never be sorry about it.
- I want it to look like an accident.
- Why?
Well, I'd like people
to think that and not feel guilty.
Can I tell you something?
Of course.
- There's nothing anyone can do
that's gonna make me want to live.
Come on!
Come in!
You okay?
I can't really talk about it.
- That doesn't sound good.
"Ooh, Constantine!
I love you, Constantine."
- Give it back, Cassie-- - You guys write love letters.
- Ooh, does he send you dick pics?
- I said give it back!
- Jesus Christ, fine.
I'm just playing.
- This is life and death, Cassie.
Hey.
I'm sorry about Cassie.
She was-- Can be a bitch.
- Sometimes.
Now he's not responding.
- Conrad?
Talk to me.
You can trust me.
- Can I?
Of course.
I'm here for you.
- God, he's so messed up.
He'll only talk to me about things,
and he said that he won't be with me anymore
if I tell anyone.
So you have to promise me, okay?
You can't tell anyone, Natalie.
Seriously.
You have to promise.
- Of course.
Of course, I won't say anything.
Is there anything I can do?
Oh, it's just...
I don't even know where to begin.
What information did you review
in connection to this case?
Every available medical record
for Michelle and Conrad.
I evaluated every available text, uh,
or phone or Facebook message for both people.
I interviewed a half a dozen people
in great detail who knew Michelle.
- And--and why the interviews?
- I needed to get, uh, a baseline
for Michelle's behavior.
Was Michelle known to do mean, angry, hostile things?
Before age 12 was key for me because at 12,
she begins to develop anorexia and is put on Prozac,
and she's then medicated off and on
for her entire adolescence.
And did that have any significance for you
ultimately in forming certain opinions on this case?
- It shows that she's a very vulnerable person
who does very severe cutting of herself
in order to control her pain.
And did the text messages
between Michelle Carter and Conrad Roy
have any relevance or significance
to your clinical analysis of the case?
Oh, yes.
He's a very distressed young man
who has a lot of family conflict
that, uh, he's dealing with, and he is constantly
telling Michelle that he's gonna kill himself
and there's nothing she can do.
And this goes on and on
for hours and hours and months and months of text.
And she gets more and more desperate.
And this boy that she loves
says that he's going to kill himself
and that he's even got plans.
This is an intolerable position for her to be in.
- Doctor.
What is involuntary intoxication?
It means that there's a disruption
in the neurochemistry of the brain
where intoxication is observable
through thoughts and behaviors, activities.
And during an intoxication,
the person generally has loss of judgment,
maybe confusion,
and often loss of memory of the event.
And how do you analyze and determine
if someone is involuntarily intoxicated by drugs?
Well, first,
you need to know, can the drug do this?
Does Celexa?
Do all SSRIs cause marked changes in behavior?
Yes.
And when SSRIs cause abnormal reactions,
which involuntary intoxication is the extreme,
they cause agitation, anxiety, um,
panic, irritability,
and a dramatic, sometimes instant, shift in behavior.
It's in the diagnostic manual.
And specifically,
as to Michelle, do you have an opinion
as to whether or not she was involuntarily intoxicated?
- Yes, I do. Yes, she was.
There's a significant change in her behavior
about 11 days before Conrad's suicide
on July 12th.
And as a result of this
involuntary intoxication suffered by Michelle Carter,
do you have an opinion as to whether or not
she was able to conform her actions and conduct
to the requirements of the law?
- She couldn't.
She was enmeshed in a delusion
where she was thinking it was a good thing to help him die,
that she could mitigate the circumstances,
reassure him that he was going to heaven,
and that she could then go to his family and help them
to mourn less severely.
And are you able to pinpoint,
in your opinion, of course, around
when Michelle became involuntarily intoxicated?
On or about July 2nd,
she begins to help him go to heaven.
- I don't know if it's bad or good that you
understand me this way.
If I do end up...
Dying...
I don't...
want to go to hell.
I don't belong there.
- You won't go to hell.
I promise you.
Heaven needs a hero.
- You're gonna help me with this tomorrow.
- With what?
- I've been reading about it on the internet.
I've been talking to people online about it.
- Talking to who?
I don't know,
it's the internet.
- Are you really sure you're gonna do this?
- I'm going to try again.
When I'm home.
Tomorrow.
- Promise me something.
- Sure.
- Say goodbye before you do it.
Of course.
How's he doing?
- Not good.
- Yeah.
- It's a good thing you're doing.
Seriously.
He's really lucky to have a friend like you.
- Girlfriend.
Right.
Girlfriend.
- Thanks, Cassie.
Some things I've been doing is
trying to realize that it's not realistic.
What's going on in my head
that keeps on piling and piling?
- He wanted to excel.
He just wanted to be this, like, great person.
And in my eyes, he was all that.
He was rough on himself.
He really, really struggled
with just disappointing, I think, my husband and me.
I don't understand why you would want
someone that was so beautiful inside and out
that had so much,
that was such a kind person to die.
How do you describe
what this young woman did?
- I cannot.
Only--only she can.
Had to fight off a nurse for a cruller.
Worth it.
Any bright ideas in the half hour I've been gone?
No.
I don't know how to get him.
I--you saw, Moniz loves him.
He trusts him.
None of this was in the report.
Nothing about cutting or-- or "involuntary intoxication."
I mean, what the hell even is that?
I can't prepare overnight.
Well, maybe that's it.
I mean, he didn't say any of it in the report.
Gonna have to get him to bury himself.
You said during your direct examination
that the defendant had been cutting, correct?
- Yes.
- Would you agree with me that your initial
60 or so page report
didn't mention anything about that, correct?
- Correct. I didn't have those texts.
Would it be fair to say that
her mother never reported any concern about cutting?
I didn't interview Mom in that depth.
- May I approach, Your Honor?
Mm-hmm.
Didn't you write here,
page 60,
"Michelle's mother cannot recall any bizarre behavior
"on Michelle's part at any time of her life,
including during the period of the alleged crime."
- Yes.
- So you at least talked to her a little bit.
- Yes.
- And in that conversation,
she did not report any concerns about her daughter at all.
No, she didn't.
- The information that you had about her cutting
was based on text messages with her friends?
Yes.
And now, of course, when you looked at these messages
where she was talking about how severely she cut herself,
you would also look at other messages
she sent to other people contemporaneously?
- Yes, she often sent different messages
to different people.
- And it would be significant to you
if, uh, she was simultaneously texting one person
that she was cut so badly,
she had to go to the emergency room
and then a moment later, texting a boy
something completely different.
Yes, she did that a lot
about a lot of different things.
Yes.
But in these texts,
she is claiming that she's talking to her mother
about going to the hospital, correct?
- Yes.
Isn't it true that at the initial outset
of your involvement in this case,
you did not diagnose the defendant as depressed?
- Well, yes, that was the knowledge
I had at the time.
- You were wrong?
- Oh, golly, yeah.
- You completely misdiagnosed the defendant?
- No. -Well--
I'm sorry, uh, you said she wasn't depressed,
and now you're saying she is?
- I literally did not have enough information.
And I didn't know that I didn't have very much information.
- Oh, but when you talked to the defendant...
- I never talked to the defendant.
- How many times have you formed the opinion
that a patient or someone you've been asked to examine,
uh, is involuntarily intoxicated?
Golly, maybe...
40 times over the last 20 years?
It's really a wild guess.
- A wild guess.
So one of the things you need to do
in forming a baseline is determining if the behavior
during the period in question is of stark contrast
to his or her normal behavior, correct?
- Yes.
- Would you agree with me that if your baseline is off,
it could greatly affect your opinion?
- That's why I carefully rechecked my opinion
and found that everything in there reconfirmed
the date she had the breakdown of the intoxication.
- Right, you--you were saying that happened on, uh, July 2nd?
- Yes.
- It's important that it happened on July 2nd
because it shows that she had a break.
She behaved one way on July 1st and on July 2nd,
she behaved entirely differently
because of the intoxication,
and it was completely out of her control.
Do--do I have that right?
Yes.
- Uh, "What about hanging yourself or stabbing yourself?
"What about overdosing on sleeping pills
"or suffocating with a plastic bag?
"Sleeping pills would work,
"but if you really want to die,
I don't get why you wouldn't try it."
Yes, correct, exactly.
- But you said that her behavior changed on July 2nd?
- Yes.
- Well, these text messages
from Michelle Carter to Conrad Roy
were sent on June 29th, 2014.
You're taking my words out of context.
Okay.
May I approach?
Can you please tell the court what this book is?
- Yes, it's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual
of Mental Disorders, the DSM-5.
- An encyclopedia of every diagnosed mental disorder.
Yes.
Could you grab the section that covers
involuntary intoxication for me, please?
- Well, there is no section on involuntary intoxication.
It's a legal term.
- Well, then, what are you diagnosing her with?
- Oh, she has drug intoxication.
It's in the general group...
Of substance-induced
mood disorders.
- So it's not in there. - Well, it's--
Sir, I'm asking whether or not
the DSM-5 has a specific criteria
for the diagnosis of involuntary intoxication,
the diagnosis that you are providing for the defendant.
Is it in there?
- Well, no.
It's a legal-- - Legal term.
I tender the witness, Your Honor.
Sorry, I took some sleeping pills
and I fell asleep.
- You said you wanted this bad.
I knew you wouldn't try hard.
I feel like such an idiot.
Why?
- Because you didn't even do anything.
You lied about this whole thing.
I'm just--
I'm just so confused because...
I thought you really wanted to die.
But apparently you don't.
I just feel played and just stupid.
Don't.
I found out a new plan, and I'm gonna do it.
- I don't believe you.
You're gonna have to prove me wrong
because I don't think you really want this.
You just keep pushing it to another night.
And you never do it.
- Okay.
- Okay what? Okay.
I'll prove you wrong.
If I were that judge,
you know what I'd say?
"Your parents aren't going to miss you
if you're locked up for the next 30 years."
This is evil. Turn it off.
Where does evil come from?
- It's the news. - Your sister does not
need to hear this right now.
Turn it off, Hayden.
- He was an easy target.
It's all about attention,
people noticing her.
- We're just supposed to ignore it?
- I'm not doing this with you right now, sorry.
No, you know what everyone thinks of me
in school, in this town?
Hayden, I am sorry, but this is not helping.
We can't be watching this garbage right now.
- You should go get ready. No, you always yell
at me and I don't understand. It's always about her.
- Don't be dramatic. - I'm serious.
All you do is focus on her, talk about her.
Your closing argument, Mr. Cataldo.
- The medical examiner ruled the death a suicide.
Now, there's no statute in the state of Massachusetts
outlawing suicide, there's no statute
in the state of Massachusetts that says
it's against the law to help
or assist in a suicide.
The evidence shows that Conrad Roy
was suicidal for a very, very lengthy period of time.
That comes out in the text messages very clearly,
and Miss Carter was under no legal duty
to call for assistance.
The evidence also shows in the text messages
that Conrad Roy
specifically sought out her encouragement.
Your Honor, I believe that
the Commonwealth has failed to provide
any evidence that Miss Carter caused him to die.
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Cataldo.
Who's arguing for the Commonwealth?
- Okay.
Okay.
- I'm not just gonna stand here and say,
"Look at Commonwealth v. Carter"
and sit down, Your Honor.
With regards to the offense of manslaughter,
I would, uh, suggest that the Commonwealth
needed to prove that the conduct was intentional,
not that the outcome was intentional,
but that the conduct was.
I believe we have done that.
Your Honor, I ask that you consider
not just what you know about Conrad,
but what you have learned about the defendant
through the course of all this.
The defendant clearly had many,
what she believed, to be substantial relationships,
mostly through texting.
And for Mr. Cataldo to suggest
that Conrad had free will is an oversimplification
because she knew him.
She knew he had social anxiety.
She knew that he was depressed.
She knew his frailties.
And not only that, Your Honor, she knew what it was like
to feel lonely and want someone to talk to.
And she did talk to him that night
and she told him to get back in the truck.
Yes, the medical examiner has said this is a suicide,
but she is not the final determiner
of what the crime here is.
You are, Your Honor.
Thank you.
- We should go home.
We're here for your sister.
- She doesn't want me here.
- Well, your mother needed to take a night off.
- Do you think the judge likes me?
- It doesn't have anything to do with him liking you.
Is that--what the-- the doctor was saying,
is that what happened?
Did you black out?
I wish you would talk to me.
I wish you knew that you could talk to me.
I...
I love you no matter what.
I will always be here for you,
no matter what.
- You should just go in without me.
- I can't.
- It's okay.
No, you're not allowed to be left alone.
We'll just let them get through the first few songs
and then we'll go in.
- I'd like to perform a song for someone
very special to me that's here tonight.
My sister, Michelle.
Michelle, come up here.
Come on. - Go on.
Sit.
Stop!
- You okay?