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He vandalized your car.
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00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,400
He started screaming and started yelling.
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- She cussed at me.
- When I showed up,
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00:00:06,567 --> 00:00:10,000
I told my son, I said, "Hey,
let me figure out what's going on here."
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00:00:10,066 --> 00:00:13,467
Why didn't you say to him,
"Don't touch somebody else's property"?
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00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,300
That would sound
right on the money to moi.
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00:00:17,367 --> 00:00:19,233
This is Judy Justice.
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00:00:36,934 --> 00:00:40,867
{\an8}Morgan Larsen
is suing defendant Chris Bumgardner,
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00:00:40,934 --> 00:00:45,166
{\an8}for vandalism after his
16-year-old son damaged her car.
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00:00:45,233 --> 00:00:47,934
Court come to order.
All rise.
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00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:49,834
Have a seat, everyone.
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00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,800
Hello, Judge. Case 2101.
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00:00:52,867 --> 00:00:54,133
Lawson versus Bumgardner.
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00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:55,266
- Thank you.
- Welcome.
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00:00:55,333 --> 00:00:58,533
Ms. Lawson, it is your claim
that the defendant's son--
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00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,100
I assume that's
this young man over here--
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00:01:01,166 --> 00:01:02,166
vandalized your car,
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00:01:02,233 --> 00:01:05,533
and he vandalized your car
by smashing in a side mirror.
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00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:06,600
Yes, ma'am.
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Which required you to be without
a car for a day while they fixed it,
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so you want his father,
who was actually present at the time,
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00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,233
- to pay for the damage.
- Yes, ma'am.
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00:01:16,300 --> 00:01:19,200
From what I gather,
this happened on Father's Day,
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{\an8}- which was June 19th of this year.
- Yes.
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00:01:21,967 --> 00:01:24,900
{\an8}And you were going over
to visit your father?
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00:01:24,967 --> 00:01:26,600
- Yes.
- For Father's Day.
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00:01:26,667 --> 00:01:27,700
{\an8}Stand up.
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But I gather from your complaint,
was he sleeping?
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00:01:33,100 --> 00:01:34,834
{\an8}- Yes, he was.
- Okay.
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00:01:34,900 --> 00:01:36,900
{\an8}Some sort of an altercation happened,
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00:01:36,967 --> 00:01:39,066
{\an8}which you'll tell me about in a moment.
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00:01:39,133 --> 00:01:41,133
- His father was called?
- Yes, ma'am.
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00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,000
His father came.
This kerfuffle continued.
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And when they were on their way out,
this young man, whose name is...
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00:01:47,700 --> 00:01:49,333
- Kaden Bumgardner.
- Kaden.
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00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,934
{\an8}- Kaden.
- Kaden smashed in your passenger mirror.
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00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,200
{\an8}And his father says, well,
he actually saw him do that,
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but it was just pushing
in the window, the mirror,
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00:01:59,066 --> 00:02:01,233
and really all you
had to do was pull it out,
40
00:02:01,300 --> 00:02:02,867
and it would have been fine.
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00:02:03,100 --> 00:02:04,767
{\an8}- That's your defense?
- Yes, ma'am.
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00:02:04,834 --> 00:02:08,233
{\an8}Okay, so let's start out when you
arrived at your father's house.
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00:02:08,300 --> 00:02:09,300
{\an8}What time?
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00:02:09,367 --> 00:02:13,433
I arrived at my father's about...
I would say about 11:00, 11:15.
45
00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:14,500
Okay. What happened?
46
00:02:15,133 --> 00:02:18,266
And it woke up Kaden in the process.
Kaden got upset.
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00:02:18,333 --> 00:02:21,166
What did he say?
How did you know he was upset?
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00:02:21,266 --> 00:02:23,333
He started screaming
and pretty much saying,
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00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,633
"Why the heck are you coming
in here, waking everybody up?
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00:02:26,700 --> 00:02:28,100
- You have no right to."
- Okay.
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00:02:28,166 --> 00:02:31,567
And then after that,
Kaden got up and started yelling,
52
00:02:31,633 --> 00:02:34,533
started punching the walls,
um, screaming.
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00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,600
My father went in there,
and then his father, Chris,
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00:02:37,667 --> 00:02:39,900
ended up getting called
to come get Kaden.
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00:02:39,967 --> 00:02:43,200
How far do you live from where
Ms. Larsen's father lives?
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00:02:43,266 --> 00:02:45,900
- About seven miles away.
- How old is your son?
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- He's 16.
- Is he the oldest one of your children?
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The youngest.
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00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,533
Any other children at home
other than him?
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00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,200
- No, ma'am.
- So he's the baby, and he's home.
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00:02:56,266 --> 00:02:58,266
- Yes.
- Who sets the rules for him?
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00:02:58,333 --> 00:03:00,333
- Well, I do.
- Where did you think he was going?
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00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,066
No, no, I knew he was over at--
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00:03:02,133 --> 00:03:04,834
they had something
to do for Mother's Day...
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00:03:04,900 --> 00:03:06,633
- and then...
- No, it was Father's Day.
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00:03:06,700 --> 00:03:09,233
I know, but I'm saying for the entire...
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00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:12,100
Mother's Day is in May,
Father's Day is in June.
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00:03:12,166 --> 00:03:13,834
- They usually don't have carryovers.
- They had something planned.
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00:03:13,900 --> 00:03:15,000
I don't know.
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00:03:15,066 --> 00:03:17,567
But, uh, anyhow, yeah, he was over there.
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00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,934
Times have changed.
Life has changed.
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00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,900
The only time you
got to sleep outside your house
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00:03:23,967 --> 00:03:26,734
when I was growing up was when you
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00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,800
were outside in a pine box
or a white dress.
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00:03:29,867 --> 00:03:32,200
- That was it. Those were your choices.
- Yes, ma'am.
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00:03:32,266 --> 00:03:34,233
That's the way you could
leave your parents' house.
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00:03:34,300 --> 00:03:35,700
Right?
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00:03:36,767 --> 00:03:37,934
I chose the dress.
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00:03:41,066 --> 00:03:42,467
All right. Now, Kaden,
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I'm gonna come around to you,
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00:03:44,333 --> 00:03:47,834
because, you know,
we're not talking about somebody
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00:03:47,900 --> 00:03:49,767
losing two pints of blood...
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00:03:49,834 --> 00:03:51,734
- Yeah.
- ...or somebody losing a finger.
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00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:52,834
Yeah.
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00:03:52,900 --> 00:03:58,500
I know what it's like to wake up
a teenager at 11:30 in the morning.
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00:03:59,233 --> 00:04:02,533
I'm usually ready for dinner
at 11:30 in the morning.
87
00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,500
But teenagers, you know,
they're still growing, so they sleep late.
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00:04:06,567 --> 00:04:10,767
{\an8}But you were particularly annoyed
when Ms. Larsen came in, right?
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00:04:10,834 --> 00:04:12,033
{\an8}- Yes.
- Why?
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00:04:12,100 --> 00:04:14,367
Well, she did put it the right way,
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00:04:14,433 --> 00:04:16,033
{\an8}but she didn't put it
the right way because...
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00:04:16,100 --> 00:04:17,166
- Just, uh... tell me why.
- Well, she...
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00:04:17,233 --> 00:04:19,633
- Don't look at her, talk to me.
- She didn't just wake her up.
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00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:20,800
She came in there loud.
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00:04:20,867 --> 00:04:24,266
When she walked in, Kaden,
to a room in her father's house...
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00:04:24,333 --> 00:04:26,533
- Mm-hmm.
- ...what did she say?
97
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,800
And tell me
in what tone of voice she said it.
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00:04:29,867 --> 00:04:32,400
See, she said it in, like,
an excited voice,
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00:04:32,467 --> 00:04:34,934
but not a mean-- not,
like, a mad voice. Excited voice.
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00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:36,533
All right. And that got you mad?
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00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,667
- No, that's not what got me mad.
- What got you mad?
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00:04:38,734 --> 00:04:40,133
By the time I could
even finish my sentence,
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00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:41,734
she's already busted in
through the door
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00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:43,633
and was in my face saying,
"You got something to say to me?"
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00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:45,233
Just a second.
You're not following me.
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00:04:45,300 --> 00:04:47,033
She came in and
the first thing you said was,
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00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:50,600
she was talking too loud,
and I want to know what you said to her.
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00:04:50,667 --> 00:04:51,900
I didn't say nothing to her.
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00:04:51,967 --> 00:04:52,967
- Nothing?
- Nothing.
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00:04:53,033 --> 00:04:55,233
- I ain't even look at her.
- And then she left.
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00:04:55,300 --> 00:04:57,166
She cussed at me,
but then she walked in there and said...
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00:04:57,233 --> 00:04:59,400
- Who cussed at you?
- Her.
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00:04:59,467 --> 00:05:00,867
- She later said...
- Just a second.
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00:05:00,934 --> 00:05:03,667
I didn't get to that part,
that she cussed you.
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00:05:03,734 --> 00:05:06,100
If you didn't say anything to her,
what would she cuss you?
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00:05:06,166 --> 00:05:08,200
'Cause she got a phone call
saying that she wants me
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00:05:08,500 --> 00:05:10,133
{\an8}to get ran out of the house.
That's how this all started.
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00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,400
{\an8}Just a second.
That's a different story, okay.
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00:05:13,467 --> 00:05:17,734
So, what you're saying to me is
you believe that she came over
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00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,767
for the purpose
of getting you out of the house.
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00:05:20,834 --> 00:05:23,967
I believe so, yes.
'Cause that's what I got told.
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00:05:24,033 --> 00:05:26,800
Well, let us assume
for a moment that's true.
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That would sound right to me.
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Get him out of the house.
It's 11:30 in the morning on Father's Day.
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00:05:32,133 --> 00:05:35,200
We want to have a party here.
Get him out of the house.
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00:05:35,367 --> 00:05:39,734
That would sound
right on the money to moi.
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00:05:40,667 --> 00:05:43,133
Right on the money.
I mean, if that's what it was about.
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00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,333
So, I don't care if that's
what it was about or not.
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Okay, your father comes.
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00:05:47,467 --> 00:05:49,166
What happened when you got there, sir?
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00:05:49,233 --> 00:05:51,700
When I showed up, I went to the door
and knocked on it.
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They answered the door.
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00:05:52,834 --> 00:05:54,033
- It was pretty chaotic.
- Look... look at me.
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00:05:54,100 --> 00:05:55,100
It was pretty chaotic.
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00:05:55,166 --> 00:05:57,734
- Describe what chaotic is.
- Okay.
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00:05:57,800 --> 00:05:59,500
{\an8}There was a bunch of yelling
and screaming going on
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00:05:59,567 --> 00:06:03,266
{\an8}between Kaden, my son,
and the plaintiff...
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00:06:03,333 --> 00:06:05,400
{\an8}- And Ms. Larsen.
- Ms. Larsen, yes.
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00:06:05,467 --> 00:06:08,767
And, uh, I told my son, I said,
"Hey, you just need to step outside
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00:06:08,834 --> 00:06:12,233
and let me figure out what's
going on here, and I'll be right out."
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00:06:12,300 --> 00:06:15,500
I tried to talk to Mark.
Mark come out of the room.
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00:06:15,567 --> 00:06:17,667
- Who's Mark?
- That's the father.
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00:06:17,734 --> 00:06:20,200
Uh, he was being
very disrespectful, he said,
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00:06:20,266 --> 00:06:22,266
{\an8}and he said he wanted him to leave.
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00:06:22,333 --> 00:06:24,100
{\an8}I said, "Okay, that's no problem.
I'll get him out of here."
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00:06:24,166 --> 00:06:26,700
{\an8}Just a second.
The father came out of the room
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00:06:26,767 --> 00:06:30,300
- and said, "I want Kaden to leave."
- Right.
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00:06:30,367 --> 00:06:31,367
And did he leave?
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00:06:31,433 --> 00:06:33,600
When I come and got him,
we left, yes, we did.
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00:06:33,667 --> 00:06:36,300
- And he walked out the front door?
- Yes, he did.
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00:06:36,367 --> 00:06:40,066
And when he walked out the front door,
he passed the plaintiff's car?
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00:06:40,133 --> 00:06:42,166
- Yes, I believe so.
- What do you mean? You wrote it
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00:06:42,233 --> 00:06:43,433
- in your answer, sir.
- Yes, I did.
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00:06:43,500 --> 00:06:44,600
- So the answer is yes.
- Yes.
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00:06:44,667 --> 00:06:47,200
And you saw him do what to the mirror?
156
00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:51,333
Don't minimize what he did.
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00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,633
I would have slapped him
upside the head if I saw him take his hand
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00:06:54,700 --> 00:06:56,133
and knock off somebody's mirror.
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00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,533
I really didn't mean that.
I don't believe in corporal punishment.
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00:06:58,600 --> 00:06:59,900
Amen.
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00:06:59,967 --> 00:07:01,433
And later today...
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00:07:01,500 --> 00:07:03,934
What do you think that I think
of a person who says,
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00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,066
"Okay, I'll go with you
through this very sad time,"
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00:07:06,133 --> 00:07:09,033
someone who I've been close
and intimate with for months,
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00:07:09,100 --> 00:07:10,700
"but it's going to cost you $900."
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00:07:21,500 --> 00:07:25,500
{\an8}Morgan Larsen claims
Chris Bumgardner's 16-year-old son,
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00:07:25,567 --> 00:07:28,100
{\an8}Kaden, vandalized her car.
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00:07:28,166 --> 00:07:31,233
- Now, you saw him do what to the mirror?
- Push it in.
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00:07:31,300 --> 00:07:32,467
Okay. Very good.
170
00:07:32,533 --> 00:07:35,300
Now, do you have photographs
of the pushed-in mirror?
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00:07:35,367 --> 00:07:36,834
- I do.
- I'd like to see it.
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00:07:36,900 --> 00:07:39,300
- Okay, one moment.
- Just for my own curiosity,
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00:07:39,367 --> 00:07:41,967
{\an8}you knew that it was wrong
for him to touch that mirror.
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00:07:42,033 --> 00:07:43,066
{\an8}- Yes, ma'am.
- Okay.
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00:07:43,133 --> 00:07:46,066
{\an8}And if what you say is he just
pushed the mirror in
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00:07:46,133 --> 00:07:47,533
{\an8}and all it had to do was be,
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00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,100
you believe, to be clicked out...
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00:07:49,166 --> 00:07:51,300
- I believed it to be that, yeah.
- Just... why didn't you do that?
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00:07:51,367 --> 00:07:54,467
Why didn't you say to him,
"Don't touch somebody else's property."
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00:07:54,533 --> 00:07:57,867
- That's what this is all about.
- Well, I believe I did say that to him.
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00:07:57,934 --> 00:08:00,700
Just a second. But then
why didn't you
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00:08:00,767 --> 00:08:02,900
pull out the mirror if that's all it was?
183
00:08:02,967 --> 00:08:05,100
If you say the only thing
wrong with the mirror is that
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00:08:05,166 --> 00:08:07,533
it has to be pulled out,
why didn't you do that?
185
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:08,967
You didn't see him touch the mirror?
186
00:08:09,033 --> 00:08:10,834
- No, I did not.
- No. You were there.
187
00:08:10,900 --> 00:08:14,233
- She was right behind us.
- She didn't see it. You saw it.
188
00:08:14,300 --> 00:08:17,800
So, my only question to you is,
if you saw it and it was that minor thing,
189
00:08:17,867 --> 00:08:18,867
and you know what it is,
190
00:08:18,934 --> 00:08:22,100
either you can click the mirror in
and then you pull it out.
191
00:08:22,166 --> 00:08:24,567
I'm always afraid to click it out,
that I'm going to break it.
192
00:08:24,633 --> 00:08:25,633
Exactly.
193
00:08:25,700 --> 00:08:28,667
You're not suggesting that anybody else
194
00:08:28,734 --> 00:08:33,066
touched this mirror to damage it?
No. Okay, let's see.
195
00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,333
What did he use on the mirror, sir?
196
00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,567
- What did he use to hit the mirror?
- I believe it was his hand.
197
00:08:42,633 --> 00:08:46,633
When you say you believe it was his hand,
did you see what was in his hand?
198
00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:49,600
- He had nothing in his hand.
- Did his hand get bloody?
199
00:08:49,667 --> 00:08:50,934
- No.
- OK.
200
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,800
Kevin, would you turn these
over to the defendant, please?
201
00:08:53,867 --> 00:08:57,133
And get from the plaintiff
an estimate for the damage.
202
00:09:00,333 --> 00:09:02,667
- That's not much.
- Well, they ripped it off there.
203
00:09:02,734 --> 00:09:06,633
Well, yeah, clearly. 'Cause that's not
what it would look like when I seen...
204
00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:09,333
'Cause when he walked by,
he just flipped and...
205
00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,333
- Okay.
- And I said, "Now, Kaden, that's enough."
206
00:09:16,266 --> 00:09:18,967
So you had a $500 deductible
on your insurance?
207
00:09:19,033 --> 00:09:20,934
- Yes, I did.
- And you had it fixed?
208
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,734
- Yes, I did.
- Okay. And you paid $442.74.
209
00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,767
Good.
How long did it take them to fix it?
210
00:09:27,834 --> 00:09:31,000
{\an8}I would say about a month
with the parts being on back order.
211
00:09:31,133 --> 00:09:33,066
Oh, but you had the use
of the car all that time?
212
00:09:33,133 --> 00:09:35,266
{\an8}- No.
- Of course you did. Okay.
213
00:09:35,333 --> 00:09:37,667
Just want to see
what you have for a car rental.
214
00:09:37,734 --> 00:09:40,867
Your Honor, I don't-- I don't
understand this car rental part of it.
215
00:09:40,934 --> 00:09:42,467
I've been without a mirror before.
216
00:09:42,533 --> 00:09:44,700
Sir, you're not allowed to drive
without two mirrors.
217
00:09:44,767 --> 00:09:48,433
There was one in the cab as well,
that's two mirrors, isn't it?
218
00:09:48,834 --> 00:09:50,266
I don't know what you're asking me, sir.
219
00:09:50,333 --> 00:09:52,800
Because at some point,
you just have to take the car,
220
00:09:52,867 --> 00:09:55,767
and let's say it takes a day
once you get the parts.
221
00:09:55,834 --> 00:09:58,433
At some point
you have to take the car in
222
00:09:58,500 --> 00:09:59,900
and you're without a car for a day.
223
00:09:59,967 --> 00:10:01,934
Well, then you can either be
without a car for a day
224
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,533
or you can rent a car for a day.
225
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,500
I'm not giving her a rental for a month.
I'm not crazy.
226
00:10:07,567 --> 00:10:10,400
You know, there's a certain
amount of inconvenience that
227
00:10:10,467 --> 00:10:14,100
one endures when somebody else
vandalizes a piece of their property.
228
00:10:14,166 --> 00:10:16,300
And that's part of the punishment.
229
00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,066
Yeah. I'm glad you understand.
Don't minimize what he did.
230
00:10:19,133 --> 00:10:20,133
Well, I'm not minimizing...
231
00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,333
I would have slapped him
upside the head
232
00:10:22,633 --> 00:10:25,300
if I saw him take his hand
and knock off somebody's mirror.
233
00:10:25,367 --> 00:10:28,467
I really didn't mean that.
I don't believe in corporal punishment.
234
00:10:30,867 --> 00:10:31,867
Amen.
235
00:10:31,934 --> 00:10:34,333
I don't think you needed
15 days to fix this.
236
00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:35,834
I didn't think so either.
237
00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:39,300
Well, I certainly don't think so,
but you're entitled to a day's car rental,
238
00:10:39,367 --> 00:10:42,367
so I put that down as $200,
including everything.
239
00:10:42,433 --> 00:10:46,567
$642.74, judgment for the plaintiff.
Thank you very much.
240
00:10:46,633 --> 00:10:48,367
This court is adjourned.
241
00:10:50,333 --> 00:10:53,734
{\an8}I didn't think that I needed
to pay the whole 1300 out of pocket.
242
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,633
{\an8}I'm just glad someone finally held them
accountable for what they did.
243
00:10:56,700 --> 00:10:57,834
{\an8}The mirror I was walking past,
I just hit it. Bam! You know what I mean?
244
00:10:59,133 --> 00:11:01,300
{\an8}I finally am getting reimbursed
for the money I had to pay.
245
00:11:01,367 --> 00:11:03,934
{\an8}I knew what I was doing, and when
I did it, I did regret it after I did it.
246
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,000
{\an8}You know what I mean?
247
00:11:05,066 --> 00:11:07,467
{\an8}I feel like some people need
to control their children better.
248
00:11:08,900 --> 00:11:11,100
There's also a sign
of the times that this father
249
00:11:11,166 --> 00:11:13,433
did not own up to what he saw.
250
00:11:13,500 --> 00:11:16,900
I will say he was on the more
responsible side of parents
251
00:11:16,967 --> 00:11:18,433
than some that we've seen here.
252
00:11:18,500 --> 00:11:20,567
He said,
"I said, Kaden, what are you doing?
253
00:11:20,633 --> 00:11:23,033
This is not how you act.
This is not how you behave."
254
00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:24,533
So that I almost appreciated.
255
00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,100
But he didn't take it as far
as you or I would have liked.
256
00:11:27,166 --> 00:11:30,533
As far as, knock at the door.
"I know this is hot.
257
00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,567
My son did something wrong.
I'm going to pay for it...
258
00:11:32,633 --> 00:11:33,900
- Yep.
- "...whatever it is."
259
00:11:33,967 --> 00:11:37,300
I have to come into the 21st century
kicking and screaming.
260
00:11:37,367 --> 00:11:39,600
- I'll try and help you as much as I can.
- Thanks.
261
00:11:40,066 --> 00:11:42,834
Case 2105,
Davey versus Miller.
262
00:11:42,900 --> 00:11:44,400
All parties, please step forward.
263
00:11:44,467 --> 00:11:47,767
{\an8}Melissa Davey
is suing her ex-boyfriend
264
00:11:47,834 --> 00:11:51,033
{\an8}Joseph Miller for an unpaid loan.
265
00:11:51,100 --> 00:11:53,133
Mr. Miller, I think I'm going
to start with you today
266
00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,533
just 'cause I have to
kind of shake it up for myself,
267
00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:58,934
otherwise I get stale.
268
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,867
You and Ms. Davey were sort of in
a relationship for a brief period of time.
269
00:12:03,934 --> 00:12:05,233
- Yes, Judge.
- Never lived together?
270
00:12:05,300 --> 00:12:06,300
No.
271
00:12:06,367 --> 00:12:09,266
There came a time
when you wanted a new car.
272
00:12:09,333 --> 00:12:11,333
Not a new car but a better car.
273
00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:12,834
- Yes.
- You wanted a better car...
274
00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:16,133
because you wanted to use
that car as a driver for Uber.
275
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,200
- Yes.
- And you needed a down payment.
276
00:12:18,266 --> 00:12:20,767
- Yes.
- And according to what I've read
277
00:12:20,834 --> 00:12:24,934
from Ms. Davey and what you seem to
acknowledge in your answer,
278
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:26,900
Ms. Davey loaned you $1200.
279
00:12:26,967 --> 00:12:28,300
That is correct.
280
00:12:28,367 --> 00:12:30,867
Things didn't work out,
which happens.
281
00:12:30,934 --> 00:12:33,000
You paid her back $300.
282
00:12:33,066 --> 00:12:35,200
- Yes.
- Did not pay her back $900.
283
00:12:35,266 --> 00:12:36,266
Correct.
284
00:12:36,333 --> 00:12:40,266
So that would make it easy,
except that you have a defense.
285
00:12:40,333 --> 00:12:43,333
- Correct.
- And I'm going to let you tell me
286
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,066
and the rest of the world
what that defense is
287
00:12:46,133 --> 00:12:48,934
and show the world
what a prince of a guy you are.
288
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,233
I hope I can do that. Uh, well, um...
289
00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:53,233
You're no longer together.
290
00:12:53,300 --> 00:12:55,567
- Correct.
- You owe her $900.
291
00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:57,367
- No.
- Well, yes.
292
00:12:57,433 --> 00:12:59,600
{\an8}You just acknowledged
that you paid her three
293
00:12:59,667 --> 00:13:02,233
{\an8}and you owe nine 'cause
she gave you twelve.
294
00:13:02,300 --> 00:13:03,300
I owed nine.
295
00:13:03,367 --> 00:13:06,867
I said at that point you owed nine.
You're no longer together.
296
00:13:06,934 --> 00:13:08,800
Yeah, I'm sorry, I-I misheard you then.
297
00:13:08,867 --> 00:13:13,266
Okay, well, I sympathize with that
because I do a lot of mishearing myself.
298
00:13:13,333 --> 00:13:19,633
But what I said to you was at the time
you broke up, you owed her $900.
299
00:13:19,700 --> 00:13:20,700
That is correct.
300
00:13:20,767 --> 00:13:23,066
Now you're going
to pick it up from there
301
00:13:23,133 --> 00:13:26,266
and tell me and the rest
of the world what your defense is.
302
00:13:26,333 --> 00:13:27,500
- Um...
- 'Cause I've read it.
303
00:13:27,567 --> 00:13:28,967
I just want to hear it from you.
304
00:13:29,033 --> 00:13:30,834
At the time of our breakup,
you are correct.
305
00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:32,834
I did owe Ms. Davey $900
306
00:13:32,900 --> 00:13:36,433
{\an8}and had told her
that I would continue to pay
307
00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:38,633
{\an8}on the debt that was owed.
308
00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:41,600
{\an8}Okay. And what was the month
and year of your breakup?
309
00:13:41,667 --> 00:13:42,734
End of April, maybe.
310
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:44,600
- End of May.
- End of May.
311
00:13:44,667 --> 00:13:47,467
Okay. End of May.
Broke up owing $900.
312
00:13:47,533 --> 00:13:48,600
And you said...
313
00:13:48,667 --> 00:13:53,900
I tried to be cordial
and have conversations periodically
314
00:13:53,967 --> 00:13:56,033
with Miss Davey,
and they did not go well.
315
00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:59,100
And then Miss Davey had to put her...
316
00:13:59,166 --> 00:14:02,734
No, no. You tried to have conversations
with her with a view towards what?
317
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,333
Just to reassure her that I was going
to pay her back the rest of the money.
318
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,967
Okay. So she would call you and say,
"Where's my money?"
319
00:14:09,033 --> 00:14:11,300
No, I would send her a text
and kind of chat,
320
00:14:11,367 --> 00:14:13,433
and then I would give her
a quick call and say hello
321
00:14:13,500 --> 00:14:15,767
and we would have just
a little chat every now and then
322
00:14:15,834 --> 00:14:19,166
just to remind her that,
hey, I will pay you back the money.
323
00:14:19,233 --> 00:14:21,300
That sounds so off, Mr. Miller.
324
00:14:21,367 --> 00:14:23,600
People don't usually
call an ex-girlfriend
325
00:14:23,667 --> 00:14:25,867
who they owe $900 to and say,
326
00:14:25,934 --> 00:14:27,900
Hey, by the way, I know I'm
going to pay you back the money.
327
00:14:27,967 --> 00:14:29,300
I just need a little time.
328
00:14:29,367 --> 00:14:31,934
That usually comes from
the other side, contacting them
329
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,100
and saying, I would like my money.
330
00:14:34,166 --> 00:14:37,700
Typically, you are correct that
most people, if you owe the money,
331
00:14:37,767 --> 00:14:40,266
you don't contact the person
that is owed the money.
332
00:14:40,333 --> 00:14:42,166
I didn't want her to do that.
333
00:14:42,233 --> 00:14:44,266
I didn't want to have
to have her come to me
334
00:14:44,333 --> 00:14:46,667
and be like,
"Hey, where is my money?"
335
00:14:46,734 --> 00:14:49,667
So you break up the end of May.
Did you give her any money in June?
336
00:14:49,734 --> 00:14:55,033
I gave her one in April
and one in July, of $154.
337
00:14:55,100 --> 00:14:58,400
So at the time that you broke up,
you had only given her $150.
338
00:14:58,467 --> 00:14:59,467
Correct.
339
00:14:59,533 --> 00:15:04,233
Later on, she kept bothering you,
you were reassuring her,
340
00:15:04,300 --> 00:15:07,100
and in July, you gave her another 150.
341
00:15:07,166 --> 00:15:10,400
- Correct.
- Keep going. I still get $900.
342
00:15:11,767 --> 00:15:13,867
Where does it
say she's forgiven your debt?
343
00:15:13,934 --> 00:15:15,233
The very top one, I believe.
344
00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:17,066
It says, "You won't
have to pay for a thing."
345
00:15:17,133 --> 00:15:18,300
- No!
- And that was...
346
00:15:18,367 --> 00:15:21,166
No, no, no, no, no, no, no!
Miller!
347
00:15:21,233 --> 00:15:23,867
This doesn't say
she's forgiven your debt.
348
00:15:35,233 --> 00:15:38,400
{\an8}Melissa Davey
claims her ex-boyfriend,
349
00:15:38,467 --> 00:15:41,567
{\an8}Joseph Miller, owes for an unpaid loan.
350
00:15:41,633 --> 00:15:43,500
I still get $900.
351
00:15:43,567 --> 00:15:46,233
In July, she had to put her dog down. And...
352
00:15:46,300 --> 00:15:48,734
- {\an8}- That was in mid-
- July?
- I believe, yeah. About the...
353
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:49,800
{\an8}July 11th.
354
00:15:49,867 --> 00:15:52,600
{\an8}So, you'd already given her
the other 150?
355
00:15:52,667 --> 00:15:55,400
- Yeah, and...
- So she called you and said...
356
00:15:55,467 --> 00:15:58,066
She sent me a message that said,
"Hey, you know, I'm going to do this."
357
00:15:58,133 --> 00:16:00,867
So I called and she's like,
"Hey, I'd really, really like you there."
358
00:16:00,934 --> 00:16:02,233
I can't...
359
00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:04,934
the last couple of words
you just sort of muttered, sir.
360
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,033
- I apolo...
- Why you sort of muttered them...
361
00:16:07,100 --> 00:16:09,000
She called you and said...
362
00:16:09,066 --> 00:16:12,300
{\an8}"I would really love to have you there.
I don't want to do this alone.
363
00:16:12,367 --> 00:16:14,667
{\an8}I would really
appreciate if you would come."
364
00:16:14,767 --> 00:16:18,100
Okay. And did you think of that
as a reasonable request?
365
00:16:18,166 --> 00:16:19,166
Yes and no.
366
00:16:19,233 --> 00:16:21,734
- Okay. Did you agree to go?
- Um, after we talked...
367
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,667
No, no, no. I want you to tell me
what she said and what you said.
368
00:16:25,734 --> 00:16:26,934
She said that she would do anything.
369
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,133
No, no, no. "I really want you to go,"
and this is on the phone?
370
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:31,200
That's what you told me.
371
00:16:31,266 --> 00:16:32,834
- This was on the phone?
- Yes.
372
00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:36,500
So, you didn't say that
she could see on the phone.
373
00:16:36,567 --> 00:16:38,567
She said, I'd really like you to go.
374
00:16:38,633 --> 00:16:41,567
- And you said what?
- "I think that could be worked out."
375
00:16:41,633 --> 00:16:42,934
Okay. "I think
that could be worked out."
376
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,000
Yes.
377
00:16:44,066 --> 00:16:46,600
And then what's the next thing
that was said, and by whom?
378
00:16:46,667 --> 00:16:49,200
{\an8}I believe she said that "I would
do anything to have you there.
379
00:16:49,266 --> 00:16:50,433
{\an8}I don't want to do this alone."
380
00:16:50,500 --> 00:16:52,100
{\an8}Well, you told me that before.
381
00:16:52,166 --> 00:16:54,900
After she said,
"I really don't want to do this alone.
382
00:16:54,967 --> 00:16:56,834
I would really
like you to be there with me."
383
00:16:56,900 --> 00:16:58,100
- And I said...
- And you said,
384
00:16:58,166 --> 00:17:00,467
"That could be..."
What did he sa... "That..."
385
00:17:01,533 --> 00:17:04,000
He said, "Okay,
I think that could be worked out."
386
00:17:04,066 --> 00:17:05,500
"I think that could be worked out."
387
00:17:05,567 --> 00:17:09,033
Okay, so that's what you said.
And then who said something after that?
388
00:17:09,100 --> 00:17:11,834
She said that she would do--
when-- that...
389
00:17:11,900 --> 00:17:13,400
She already said she would do anything.
390
00:17:13,467 --> 00:17:16,700
- She would even relieve my debt.
- She said that or did you?
391
00:17:16,767 --> 00:17:18,300
- She said that.
- She said it?
392
00:17:18,367 --> 00:17:19,367
- Yes.
- Okay.
393
00:17:19,433 --> 00:17:22,734
'Cause that's what his answer was here.
394
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,233
And so then you said to her,
"Fine, I'll go with you."
395
00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:30,266
And you went with her
and you spent three, four hours there.
396
00:17:30,333 --> 00:17:33,100
The unfortunate business
of an end of life
397
00:17:33,166 --> 00:17:35,734
for a beloved pet takes place.
398
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,500
And, prince that you are,
399
00:17:37,567 --> 00:17:40,734
{\an8}you relieved yourself
of the $900 that you owed her.
400
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:41,800
{\an8}Yes.
401
00:17:41,867 --> 00:17:43,467
Just from my own information,
402
00:17:43,533 --> 00:17:47,667
how long did you and Ms. Davey
date or have a relationship?
403
00:17:48,233 --> 00:17:49,400
A month?
Two months?
404
00:17:49,467 --> 00:17:50,834
- Three months?
- Four months.
405
00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:53,033
Four months. Did you get close?
406
00:17:53,100 --> 00:17:54,934
- Tried.
- Both of you or just she?
407
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,100
- Both.
- So you tried to make it
408
00:17:57,166 --> 00:18:01,233
a warm, close, intimate relationship
as best we could, yes.
409
00:18:01,300 --> 00:18:04,834
And when you needed some help,
she offered to help you.
410
00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:05,900
Correct.
411
00:18:05,967 --> 00:18:08,266
What do you think
that I think of a person
412
00:18:08,333 --> 00:18:12,367
who understands the word "close,"
"warm," "affectionate."
413
00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:15,266
What do you think that I think
of a person who says,
414
00:18:15,333 --> 00:18:18,066
"Okay, I'll go with you
through this very, very sad time,
415
00:18:18,133 --> 00:18:20,834
someone who I've been close
and intimate with for months.
416
00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:23,900
So, I'm going to spend
a couple of hours in the afternoon
417
00:18:23,967 --> 00:18:25,567
with you at this very tough time,
418
00:18:25,633 --> 00:18:27,734
but it's gonna cost you $900."
419
00:18:28,266 --> 00:18:29,934
Which is in effect exactly what you said:
420
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,100
"But it's gonna cost you $900."
421
00:18:32,166 --> 00:18:34,300
Let us assume that I believe you,
422
00:18:34,367 --> 00:18:36,767
a reasonable ex-boyfriend,
423
00:18:36,834 --> 00:18:38,700
who wanted to be, as you said,
424
00:18:38,767 --> 00:18:41,100
"I didn't want her
to have to come and chase me.
425
00:18:41,166 --> 00:18:42,734
I wanted to assure her."
426
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:47,600
So, a reasonable ex-boyfriend would say,
"Sure, I'll keep you company."
427
00:18:47,667 --> 00:18:49,834
In theory, yes.
There were circumstances
428
00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:55,166
when Ms. Davey and I broke up
that were not the best for either of us.
429
00:18:55,233 --> 00:18:58,900
And it wasn't a cordial breakup.
It was very rocky.
430
00:18:58,967 --> 00:19:02,567
At the time when she called
and asked me to come,
431
00:19:02,633 --> 00:19:04,667
I didn't want to speak to her at all.
432
00:19:04,734 --> 00:19:06,100
I would have respected that, sir.
433
00:19:06,166 --> 00:19:08,133
You say, "This was very rocky.
It was nasty.
434
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,533
We don't really like each other
anymore, or I don't like you anymore."
435
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,233
I don't know how she feels about you.
436
00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:15,700
And it's really
not something that I want to do.
437
00:19:15,767 --> 00:19:17,000
I don't want to be involved with that.
438
00:19:17,066 --> 00:19:20,133
I could actually understand
that if it was acrimonious, as you say.
439
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,100
What I can't understand is
somebody saying, "I'll go with you,
440
00:19:23,166 --> 00:19:25,400
but it's gonna cost you $900."
441
00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:28,433
- That's what I don't understand.
- Well, she brought that up.
442
00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:30,567
She was the one that stated
that she would relieve the debt.
443
00:19:30,633 --> 00:19:33,066
And I was like, okay, whatever.
444
00:19:33,133 --> 00:19:34,800
Okay, Ms. Davey, now it's up to you.
445
00:19:34,867 --> 00:19:39,033
Now, I have been grilling Mr. Miller,
so I have only one question to you.
446
00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:41,400
Do you remember the conversation
when you discussed
447
00:19:41,467 --> 00:19:43,100
with him going with you to the vet?
448
00:19:43,166 --> 00:19:44,867
- Yes. I have it in texts.
- I'd like to see it.
449
00:19:44,934 --> 00:19:46,667
- Uh, judge, the, uh...
- Speak not.
450
00:19:46,734 --> 00:19:47,734
Okay.
451
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,266
Unless you have the text message.
452
00:19:50,967 --> 00:19:53,834
This is the date I called
to make the vet appointment.
453
00:19:58,266 --> 00:20:00,400
Sarah, can you tell me
what dates these are?
454
00:20:00,467 --> 00:20:01,467
Sure.
455
00:20:02,667 --> 00:20:05,934
If you go up, these are all
Saturday, July 9th.
456
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,367
And if you pull over,
you can see the time.
457
00:20:12,867 --> 00:20:14,367
Well, I'm looking at all these,
458
00:20:14,433 --> 00:20:18,000
and I don't see anything
about her saying to you,
459
00:20:18,066 --> 00:20:19,934
"If you come with me,
I'll forgive your debt."
460
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,867
So if you have one of those,
I'll take a look at it.
461
00:20:22,934 --> 00:20:24,467
The very top one.
462
00:20:25,300 --> 00:20:27,734
That was after a phone conversation
with Ms. Davey.
463
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:28,867
Just a second.
464
00:20:28,934 --> 00:20:31,066
Where does it say
she's forgiven your debt?
465
00:20:31,133 --> 00:20:34,900
The very top one, I believe. It says,
"You won't have to pay for a thing."
466
00:20:34,967 --> 00:20:36,233
- No!
- And that was...
467
00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:38,367
No, no, no, no, no, no, no!
468
00:20:38,433 --> 00:20:40,667
Miller! Miller!
469
00:20:40,734 --> 00:20:42,800
You know what I'm talking about, sir.
470
00:20:42,867 --> 00:20:45,133
She tells you
to keep your gas receipts,
471
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,500
so if you're coming to help her,
472
00:20:47,567 --> 00:20:49,500
it's not going to cost you
anything out of pocket.
473
00:20:49,567 --> 00:20:51,400
This doesn't say she's forgiven your debt.
474
00:20:51,467 --> 00:20:55,133
You have family,
you have siblings, parents, anything?
475
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:56,200
- Yes.
- Yeah, well.
476
00:20:56,266 --> 00:20:58,433
They're going to be
disappointed in you, Mr. Miller,
477
00:20:58,500 --> 00:21:00,567
because it's not princely activity.
478
00:21:00,633 --> 00:21:04,934
It was clear to me from reading
the plaintiff's notes to you
479
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,266
that at least it appeared that
she was struggling more
480
00:21:07,333 --> 00:21:09,834
with the end of your relationship
than you were.
481
00:21:09,900 --> 00:21:13,166
That's just what it appears,
and I'm a pretty good judge of that.
482
00:21:13,233 --> 00:21:15,600
And you sound like an intelligent man.
483
00:21:15,667 --> 00:21:18,367
Soulless, but yet intelligent.
484
00:21:18,433 --> 00:21:22,266
So if you have any emotion whatsoever,
you can look at this and say,
485
00:21:22,333 --> 00:21:25,033
this is a lady who's sort of struggling.
486
00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:27,767
"Let me see how
I can take advantage of that.
487
00:21:27,834 --> 00:21:31,600
I owe her $900,
and I'm going to figure out
488
00:21:31,667 --> 00:21:33,767
that if I do this for her
and it's really important,
489
00:21:33,834 --> 00:21:36,133
I shouldn't have to
pay her back the $900."
490
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,266
Unprincely, Mr. Miller.
491
00:21:38,333 --> 00:21:41,100
Judgment for the plaintiff in
the amount of $900.
492
00:21:41,166 --> 00:21:42,500
We're finished here.
493
00:21:42,567 --> 00:21:44,300
This court is adjourned.
494
00:21:46,467 --> 00:21:47,834
{\an8}People just sometimes don't agree.
495
00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:49,800
{\an8}It was very clearcut.
496
00:21:49,867 --> 00:21:51,600
{\an8}At the time, I was very upset with her.
497
00:21:51,667 --> 00:21:54,700
{\an8}I think he tried his best
to just keep things cordial.
498
00:21:54,767 --> 00:21:55,767
{\an8}Move on and move forward.
499
00:21:55,867 --> 00:22:00,500
{\an8}Another wonderful relationship
that hopefully will not end up in court.
500
00:22:01,767 --> 00:22:04,900
It intrigues me how men can make
the jump from
501
00:22:04,967 --> 00:22:06,467
"keep your gas receipts"
502
00:22:06,533 --> 00:22:09,300
to "you don't have to pay me
your $900 debt."
503
00:22:09,367 --> 00:22:10,367
We read the messages
504
00:22:10,433 --> 00:22:14,467
and we're unclear as to what
debt forgiveness in the messages.
505
00:22:14,533 --> 00:22:16,867
We didn't see it.
He handed us the exact same text
506
00:22:16,934 --> 00:22:18,266
that we had read on her phone.
507
00:22:18,333 --> 00:22:20,200
He said,
"Yeah, that's what that means."
508
00:22:20,266 --> 00:22:22,934
I think he knew what it meant
509
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,500
because if you checked out
his smirk when he handed me
510
00:22:25,567 --> 00:22:27,567
just that one piece of paper,
he knew that when it said,
511
00:22:27,633 --> 00:22:28,800
"Keep your gas receipts,
512
00:22:28,867 --> 00:22:31,767
I don't want it to cost you anything"
to come with her to the vet.
513
00:22:31,834 --> 00:22:34,400
Having nothing to do with the $900 debt.
514
00:22:34,467 --> 00:22:39,266
Oh, it's just amazing to me that after
27 years of doing this here,
515
00:22:39,333 --> 00:22:43,433
I have to do a breakdown
of about 90% of the cases
516
00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:47,600
involve women who are
giving money to boyfriends
517
00:22:47,667 --> 00:22:49,934
and then get left holding the bag,
518
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,900
as opposed to
the 10% of men who get caught up
519
00:22:53,967 --> 00:22:57,500
with situations where women
are prepared to take advantage of them.
520
00:22:57,567 --> 00:23:00,633
- Mm-hmm.
- But most of the time it's women.
521
00:23:00,700 --> 00:23:02,934
I don't know. I think it all
has to do with self-esteem, Sarah.
522
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:04,967
I think that the only way
to ensure that you have that
523
00:23:05,033 --> 00:23:06,967
- is having a way to support yourself.
- Yeah.
524
00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:11,867
{\an8}Are you a victim of a scam?
Go to JudyJustice TV.