- You have a daycare center. - Correct.
You found that the baby was bitten by her little one?
Yes, ma'am.
I think they're supposed to be separated, correct?
She left out of the room is what she told me, judge.
There's only one me.
It's a big responsibility to take care of little children.
This is Judy Justice.
Shanece Grimm is suing her client, Dallas Lee,
for child services, late fees, and property damage.
Court come to order. All rise.
Have a seat, please.
Hello, judge. Case 2175, Grimm versus Lee.
Thank you very much. You're welcome.
- Ms. Grimm, in what state do you live? - Missouri.
In what county? - Jackson.
- You have a daycare center. - An in-home childcare, yes.
For how long? - I started September of 2022.
What is your house like? - I have a single family home
with a finished basement and then, like, an attic type...
it's two bedrooms.
House has two bedrooms? - No, up in the attic has two bedrooms
It's technically a three bedroom house but it has made six rooms.
And how many children do you have?
I currently have seven.
How old are they?
Fourteen, thirteen, eleven, eight, five, and three,
and eighteen months.
Three and eighteen months?
I'm sorry, she's four now, she just turned four.
So the older ones go to school.
Does the five year old go to school? Yes.
And the eight year old goes to school.
- Correct. - So you have two little ones at home.
My four year old goes to early childhood half the day.
So you have one child at home during the day?
Correct.
- And one half a day? - Yes.
And you have three children? - Yes, ma'am.
How old are they?
I now have a three year old, a one year old, and a five month old.
And those were the children you enrolled in her daycare center?
Yes, ma'am. Ms. Grimm,
what kind of licensing do you have, an application that you have to make
in order to run an in-home daycare center in Missouri?
So in the state of Missouri, as long as you have under six children,
you do not have to have a license.
As long as you have six children
- in total in the house? Or 6 children... - That I'm watching.
That you're watching. - Correct.
Cause my school children are not considered watching,
like, under the law.
Well, you certainly have to watch your eighteen month old.
Yes, he's the only one, that's why I've always kept five children or less.
It is you claim that Ms. Lee entered her children into your program,
she paid you for a certain period of time, she owes you for two weeks.
- Correct. - And were those two weeks
two weeks that her children were actually in care?
Correct. Which two weeks were those?
They are the last two weeks of October.
Of 2022? - Correct.
And the children were in your program?
Correct. Ms. Lee,
were the children in Ms. Grimm's program
the last two weeks in October?
Yes, ma'am, they were. Did you pay her
for the last two weeks in October?
No, ma'am, I did not.
How much were you supposed to pay her?
For the last two weeks was supposed to be $600,
because our agreement was 600 every two weeks.
Okay, so it was supposed to be $600.
Yes, ma'am. So now the ball is in your court.
So far, Ms. Grimm, we're not talking about a late fee,
we're just talking about these two weeks.
- Correct. - First, tell me your reason
for removing the children.
I removed my children out of her care because my children,
every time that I picked them up, it was either they were harmed,
or injured, or my son, my three year old, would tell me
something had happened while I was gone at work in her care.
My son had told me on numerous accounts
that she hit him herself,
and that he also told me that
her 15-year-old son-- or 14, I'm sorry--
had also spanked him.
And when I did ask him, well, I asked her, actually,
I said "who is Trey?"
Because he said, "Mommy, Trey hit me."
We were getting in the car,
they normally do help me get in the car with my three children,
seeing I have one who's barely walking...
You're getting, you're going all over the place.
Yes, ma'am. So they normally help me get in the car with my children
so they were outside with us, and my son said
"Mommy, Trey hit me like this."
I didn't know any Trey, so I asked her, "Who is Trey?"
And she said, "That's my son," and he said, "That's me,"
he was standing right there next to her, he said, "I'm Trey."
And I said, "Bryson said that you hit him,"
and he said "Yes, I hit Bryson."
He said, "I popped him because Bryson wasn't doing right,
Bryson didn't wanna go to timeout."
On what day was that? That was on October 25th.
And what was the last day that your children attended?
- October 27th. - Okay, so despite the fact
- that Trey... You're Trey? - Yes, ma'am.
Slapped the three year old, said that he slapped the three year old...
Mm-hmm. - You let him stay there
for an extra two days?
Yes, ma'am. Just, it's that... Yes.
Now, where were you working that you had your children in daycare?
I was working as a CNA. What is that?
A certified nurses assistant.
- Where? - It's a, um, rehab...
- Nursing home? - Yes, ma'am.
When did you start working there? - I started working there in September.
September of 2022? - Yes, ma'am.
Beginning of September? Yes, ma'am.
And when did you stop working there?
I stopped working there October 27th.
That was my last day.
If I were to call, would they tell me that they terminated you or you quit?
I quit. Did you quit on the 27th?
Yes, ma'am.
And what about now, are you working?
- I am. - Who're you working for?
I work through a temp agency,
working per diem at different locations as a CNA.
And who takes care of your children?
My stepmom. My children, I... Just a second.
And when did you start that job?
I started that job about four weeks ago.
So in December. Yes, ma'am.
Late November or so.
You left the children there until the end of October.
It couldn't have been so disturbing for you, madam,
to leave the children there until the end of October, another six weeks,
if you felt as if they weren't getting adequate care.
And if you did, that would be on you!
Shanece Grimm claims her client, Dallas Lee,
refused to pay for childcare services.
Dallas is counter-suing for lost wages
and emotional distress.
So a relative has been taking care of your children.
Yes, ma'am. Not all three of them.
I had to send my two sons, because I had to rearrange
my daycare situation, I had to send them back to Texas to be with their dad.
So two of them went back to their father.
Yes, ma'am. And who do you live with here?
I live with my dad. What does he do?
My dad is a nuclear medicine technologist.
So your step mom takes care of one of the children...
My five-month-old daughter. Yes, ma'am.
Who's in the house. - Mm-hmm.
Now you're gonna tell me why you didn't pay her for the last two weeks.
So, my children began in her care September 12th.
September 13th she sent me a text message while I was at work,
and she said, "I want to let you know little mama was bit today
by my one year old on her cheek."
She sent me a picture, I have this.
Not interested. It's not that I'm disinterested,
it's that, don't show me anything from September, madam,
you kept your children with her into October,
and through the end of October.
And if anything was so concerning to you
that you thought your children would be at risk, I'm certain that you
would've discussed it with your father, and your father would've said to you...
May I? Don't speak.
Okay. And your father would've said
to you, if you have a problem with the children,
don't let them stay there. What you did...
Okay, I can see that you're dying to tell me something, what?
Yes, ma'am.
My daughter had no other choice but to keep her children in care,
because I work a full time job.
Let me explain something to you, sir.
Your daughter was living with you?
Yes, ma'am. Right.
There is always an alternative, sir.
I have young grandchildren, and I would say
if I was legitimate, legitimately
concerned for their health and safety, I don't care what it is,
stay home and take care of your children, you'll have a roof over your head
until you find appropriate daycare.
And if didn't do that, then you're not much of a grandfather.
Well... You can't use
something that happened in September
or early October to say, "Well, that's why I didn't pay the last two weeks."
- May I speak? - You can't make,
you can't make excuses, sir, I'm telling you. I'm a grandmother,
and I've had little children, I don't care what you had to do,
quit my job, whatever that job is,
and say, well I'll stay home and take care of the children until you find,
or you stay home and take care of the children,
I'll provide you with whatever basics you need until you get the right daycare.
And if you didn't do that, don't tell me that your daughter didn't have a choice.
- There is always a choice... - She did not have a choice.
...where your babies are concerned.
In our estimation, at that time,
we were giving her some hard life lessons,
cause she does now have three children,
and there are gonna be some difficulties
in this living situation, and there are gonna be some things.
So what we were doing, we were giving her some tough love, and saying
"Hey, you cannot give up just because the chips are down
or because things happened, you gotta try to figure things out."
Well that would be on you, that's not on her.
This is not her daughter, it's your daughter.
Absolutely. And your grandchildren, sir.
Absolutely. And if you wanna teach her
some real hard lessons, and say, "You've gotta stay with the daycare
even though you're dissatisfied..."
We said, "Give her a chance," cause it was the first day.
It was the first incident, the first day, we said "Give her a chance."
Things happen sometimes.
What I don't want to hear is from you, who seemed like a very intelligent man...
Yes, ma'am. ... a working man,
is my daughter had no choice.
Your daughter has a choice. Her choice is to say to you,
"Dad, please, I have to find the right daycare,
I have to stop working at this job. I may need a month."
You may not have liked her previous irresponsible behavior...
- Right? - Correct.
But the deed is done. She's got three young children.
Beautiful children. Right?
So what you do is, when you have three young beautiful children
you protect them. Absolutely.
And if you're not smart enough to protect them yourself
you gotta rely on your father who's smart enough to do that.
What I'm saying to you is, your daughter used this lady's services
and she has to pay for it.
She may not send her children back,
but your statement that you were so anxious to make to me,
which is, "My daughter had no choice..." She did have a choice, sir.
She did have a choice. Before I would let my children
stay in a place where I actually believed,
believed that they were being abused,
cause that's what she's suggesting--
I mean, she's not suggesting that this young man, who I'm not condoning
hitting a three year old, gave him a slap on the rear end,
I'm not condoning that, but there were no injuries to him,
I don't know whether you've done it,
I don't know whether she's done it to her child
you certainly don't want a daycare provider's child
to discipline a three year old... Absolutely.
That's not what it's about. - But after the first incident
what we were trying to teach her is that you don't just throw in the towel,
because Ms. Grimm was just starting her service up, and...
- September 5th. - ...So we understand that
there are gonna be some hiccups
and some things that she has to fix
- as she comes across them. - Mm-hmm.
So, she's a young lady, my daughter's a young lady,
so as an older man, I'm trying to support two individuals
to build their lives up.
And so I told my daughter, "I don't like that she was bitten,
but at least she came forward very quickly and told you,
so leave them there for now, and if anything else transpires,
then we can start to look at things then."
- Yes, ma'am. - Who do you work for, sir?
I work for the Veteran's Administration. And how long have you worked
for the Veteran's Administration?
Twenty-one years.
Do you get paid every two weeks?
Yes, ma'am. Let's say your boss
at the VA all of a sudden decided
they didn't like the work you were doing.
And you left and they owed you two weeks pay,
cause you had actually worked for the two weeks.
Absolutely. And you sued them
for those two weeks.
Mm-hmm. You worked there.
Say, "well, we didn't like the quality oh his work for those two weeks."
Well, then you fire him,
but you pay him. It's like going to a restaurant.
My favorite analogy is, you go into your favorite restaurant
where you get a steak. Mm-hmm.
And you order a steak medium, Pittsburgh medium.
Steak comes, you cut into it, you take a bite.
"Oh my god," you say, "I don't like the way this tastes."
You take the plate, you spit out the bite if you're smart,
call the waiter over and say, "This is a bad steak."
- Right? - Absolutely.
And the waiter takes it off the bill or you order something else.
Now, you cut into that same steak, you taste, you say, "This tastes terrible,
maybe the next bite will taste better."
Before you know it, you've finished the whole steak.
Waiter comes over to take your clean plate,
you say, "The steak was awful, I didn't like it. It was bad."
Well, what'd you eat it for?
But if you ate the steak, you gotta pay for it.
If you take a bite and say it's no good,
I'm in your corner, send it back.
But your daughter ate the steak. She used her services for two weeks.
And didn't pay her. Well, we can't say
that she used her services.
Because there are other pieces of evidence that we have.
She didn't... You mean, you're talking about that sometimes she left the children
with her husband? Yeah.
Yeah, baloney. Your daughter had the benefit
of daycare so that she could work.
If you're not satisfied with a service you stop using the service.
If you continue to use the service despite the fact that you're not satisfied with it
you gotta pay for it. That's America.
You got paid, your father got paid,
she gets paid.
Shanece Grimm has accused her client, Dallas Lee,
of refusing to pay for childcare services.
Dallas claims Shanece wrongfully disciplined and neglected her children.
Your daughter had the benefit of daycare so that she could work.
Absolutely. And she had the benefit
of daycare from this lady
that enabled your daughter to make money...
But if we're talking breach of contract, the contract was breached
when the husband watched the child, and...
Now you're not teaching your daughter responsibility.
Now you're making excuses.
Now you're not teaching your daughter responsibility.
Your daughter worked to make money.
You worked those last two weeks, didn't stay home with your grandchildren.
- You made money. - Absolutely.
The only one that didn't make money,
and had her three children for those two weeks, was the plaintiff.
She ate the steak, she used the service.
She didn't have anybody else. It's not as if, well, I had to hire somebody else
to take care of the kids the last two weeks even though it was in my deal,
so that's why I'm not paying.
She worked, you worked, she worked!
And if her husband, if she ran out to the store and left her husband,
unless you're telling me that that was such a breach of the agreement
that your daughter took the children out of her program.
Did she? No. She did not.
She didn't say, "I'm not allowing your husband
to take care of my children, even if it's just for an hour.
I'm taking my children out of the program.
Dad, can you help me out for the next couple of weeks
until I find something else?"
But you can't eat the steak, which she did. Now you can sit down.
- Can I say one more thing? - Not if you wanna continue
to look foolish. Now you're not teaching her responsibility.
- Well... - Now you're not
teaching her responsibility.
I don't wanna have to teach you responsibility.
Well, you don't have to. I'm a veteran, I know what responsibility is.
But when you are promoting your program as one thing
but your service is another, I cannot say that...
If Bobby Flay is cooking the steak...
It doesn't matter who's cooking the steak.
It was whether you ate the steak.
- It's whether you ate the steak. - I get what you're saying, judge,
but if it's promoted as Bobby Flay cooking it,
and Bob Herbert cooked it,
and I don't like the taste, then those are two separate things.
Just a second. Oh, no, no, no sir.
If you're promoting Bobby Flay as cooking the steak, or the hamburger,
and you find out Bobby Flay's younger brother was cooking the steak,
- or was cooking the burger... - Mm-hmm.
And, either way, if the burger's no good you're not gonna eat it.
But you can't eat it and say, "Well, I really thought I was getting
a Bobby Flay hamburger, and I didn't get a Bobby Flay hamburger
so I'm not gonna pay for it.
Even though I ate it. Now you can sit down.
How much is two weeks worth of care, $600?
Yes, ma'am. Judgement for the plaintiff $600.
You have a counter claim.
Counter claim is ridiculous. "Money owed for lost wages,
emotional distress on behalf of the children."
You shouldn't have emotional distress on behalf of the children, madam,
you're their mother. The first time
you had an inkling that you felt that your children, your young children,
were being neglected in the plaintiff's care,
what you should've done was remove them.
Remove them.
First time you felt as if three year old shouldn't have been subject of a slap
by this young man? Great, remove them.
You found that the baby, the little one, was bitten by her little one?
You say, "That's not watching them carefully enough,"
cause they, I think, are supposed to be separated, correct?
- Yes. - No, we're all in one room,
so they weren't happen to be separated,
'cause with me only having less than four children
there was no way of separating, cause there was only one me.
It's a big responsibility to take care of little children.
Correct. My daughter shouldn't have been
in his reach. She did tell me... I absolutely agree with you.
She left out of the room is what she told me, judge.
So that's actually not true. She told me that she left out of the room
and went to the kitchen.
What day. Give me the date that that happened.
September 13th.
You left the children there until the end of October.
It couldn't have been so disturbing for you, madam,
to leave the children there until the end of October, another six weeks,
if you felt as if they weren't getting adequate care.
And if you did, that would be on you!
And maybe a little bit on your father, because if you told him about it,
said, "Oh my god, that's terrible, take my child out right away,
all three of 'em," but you didn't.
You left them in there September 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th,
all the way up to the end of September and the end of October.
That's on you.
Actually, she did not have them in the end of September
'cause she was suspended from her job.
So they were gone for two weeks in September.
Were you suspended from your job?
I was. I had... Just, just... That's my question.
You were suspended from your job.
When you were suspended from your job, did you take the children out of daycare?
Yes, ma'am. Okay, and that's reasonable.
She didn't give you a problem with that, I assume.
No.
And you didn't pay for those two weeks.
I did not.
Great, well these two weeks you're gonna pay for, because...
I don't believe I owe her anything.
I don't care what you believe. If you're not listening
to what I'm saying to you and you're fixed in your opinion
that means you haven't learned anything.
Your father tried to teach you a little bit of tough love.
What I'm telling you is, if you work you get paid.
If you're not satisfied with the service, you stop using the service.
If you continue to use the service despite the fact
that you're not satisfied with it
you gotta pay for it. That's America.
You got paid, your father got paid, she gets paid.
She didn't get paid for the two weeks you took your kids out,
didn't say to you, "Well, you have to pay me anyway,
I have to keep this open for you."
That was very fair.
Took the kids out, didn't pay. You left your kids in, you pay.
Six hundred dollars, your counter claim is dismissed.
We're finished.
This court is adjourned.
I am a little upset she didn't see things my way.
The judge was kind of in my favor for the majority of it.
You know, her leaving my children in the care of her 15-year-old son
and also her husband.
Then why did she continue bringing her children to me for another month?
Also my son letting me know that, you know, she hit him.
I have never touched her children, I could take a lie detector test to prove it.
It was pretty difficult for me, because I didn't have any other choices,
I didn't have anyone else who could help me with keeping
all three of my children while I worked.
She actually never gave me excuses,
she actually just told me she was gonna pay me.
Life is not easy.
If you work, you should get paid.
But you get back up and you keep moving.
My generation, I'm not sure about yours, I haven't had much experience in yours,
but in mine, I think we confuse having to make a hard choice
with being out of options.
Here, I felt for the defendant
She had to make a hard choice.
But even when her father came up and felt the need to burst out and say,
"My daughter had no options, she had no choice."
Well, she did have a choice. It was a hard choice,
you had to send your two older sons to live with their father,
and find a sort of mediocre at best childcare situation,
but you made the choice to have those three children,
and when you have children you make a commitment
to make the hard choices to benefit them.
- In their best interest. - In their best interest.
And if you're not prepared to do that, then you shouldn't become a parent.
In any event, I tried to make my steak analogy, it didn't...
I thought it was great. I had a great time.
- Great, I'm glad you did. - I thought it was a good lesson.
Thank you.
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