1
00:00:00,333 --> 00:00:03,567
{\an8}He claims that it was his gun.
It was a loan. You took it.
2
00:00:03,633 --> 00:00:05,166
No, I did not do that, Your Honor.
3
00:00:05,233 --> 00:00:07,700
{\an8}Great. And for that, you have a receipt?
4
00:00:07,767 --> 00:00:09,633
- Yes.
- I'd like to see it.
5
00:00:09,700 --> 00:00:11,100
I left it at home.
6
00:00:11,166 --> 00:00:14,467
{\an8}Do you have any statements, text messages?
7
00:00:14,533 --> 00:00:17,100
- No.
- This is ridiculous.
8
00:00:17,166 --> 00:00:19,633
This is Judy Justice.
9
00:00:36,967 --> 00:00:40,934
{\an8}Allen Lakosky is suing
business-owner Gene Klun
10
00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:42,767
{\an8}for a semiautomatic rifle.
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00:00:43,266 --> 00:00:45,233
Court, come to order. All rise.
12
00:00:45,300 --> 00:00:46,633
Have a seat, please.
13
00:00:47,367 --> 00:00:50,633
{\an8}Hello, Judge.
Case 2055, Lakosky versus Clun.
14
00:00:50,700 --> 00:00:51,633
- Thank you.
- You're welcome.
15
00:00:51,700 --> 00:00:56,200
Mr. Lakosky, am I correct that
you own or manage a shooting range?
16
00:00:56,266 --> 00:00:58,567
Yes, it's a target range, it's on property
17
00:00:58,633 --> 00:01:00,500
that I own in northern Minnesota.
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00:01:00,567 --> 00:01:04,166
And it's licensed to do
commercial target shooting?
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00:01:04,233 --> 00:01:05,767
Not necessarily.
What I do is not is--
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00:01:05,834 --> 00:01:07,233
What is "not necessarily"?
What does that mean?
21
00:01:07,300 --> 00:01:10,500
Well, for 19 years,
I have been a firearms instructor
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00:01:10,567 --> 00:01:14,066
for the permits to carry for the
sheriff's department in my county.
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00:01:14,133 --> 00:01:17,333
So I don't believe that the training
is good enough that the people are getting
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00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,367
{\an8}to be able to carry handguns
on the street.
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00:01:19,433 --> 00:01:23,333
{\an8}So I give them a free
additional training session at my range.
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00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:24,967
You also sell guns?
27
00:01:25,033 --> 00:01:26,533
I do not sell guns, no.
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00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,233
- -I--
- I--
- How do you make money is my question.
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00:01:29,300 --> 00:01:32,900
So I get money
by charging people for the class.
30
00:01:32,967 --> 00:01:34,033
Well, that's what I'm talking--
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00:01:34,100 --> 00:01:35,700
- you charge people to use
- Yes.
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00:01:35,767 --> 00:01:37,934
and you don't need a license
33
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,600
to run that sort of
operation in your county?
34
00:01:40,667 --> 00:01:42,800
No. You have to be
a registered NRA instructor,
35
00:01:42,867 --> 00:01:45,066
- which is also, you know, like--
- Are you?
36
00:01:45,133 --> 00:01:46,867
- Yes, I am, ma'am.
- For how long?
37
00:01:46,934 --> 00:01:48,700
Oh, I've been doing this for 19 years.
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00:01:48,767 --> 00:01:52,000
The case is really not very complicated,
39
00:01:52,066 --> 00:01:55,900
but let me see if I can break
it down to its most basic elements.
40
00:01:55,967 --> 00:01:59,367
There was a gentleman
who regularly came to your range.
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00:01:59,433 --> 00:02:00,433
Yes, ma'am.
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00:02:00,500 --> 00:02:02,533
- And his first name was--
- Jim.
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00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:04,700
How long had he been coming to your range?
44
00:02:04,767 --> 00:02:06,100
A couple of years at least.
45
00:02:06,166 --> 00:02:09,400
And then, according to
what you indicated, your complaint,
46
00:02:09,467 --> 00:02:14,033
and Mr. Klun doesn't deny it, he got sick
47
00:02:14,100 --> 00:02:16,400
and according to you,
the nature of his illness,
48
00:02:16,467 --> 00:02:19,633
you felt prevented him
from using a heavier weapon?
49
00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:22,400
- Yes, ma'am.
- And so you loaned to him,
50
00:02:22,467 --> 00:02:25,333
because of his illness, a rifle?
51
00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,900
- Yes, ma'am.
- What kind of rifle did you loan?
52
00:02:27,967 --> 00:02:30,967
It was a sporting rifle.
It was very lightweight.
53
00:02:31,033 --> 00:02:33,266
- What kind?
- It was called a PS 90.
54
00:02:33,333 --> 00:02:35,467
- That was the model.
- PS--?
55
00:02:35,533 --> 00:02:38,667
P-S, as in Sam, 90.
56
00:02:39,467 --> 00:02:41,166
Would you take a look at that,
Sarah, please?
57
00:02:41,233 --> 00:02:43,467
I have a picture, uh,
Your Honor, if you'd like to see one.
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00:02:43,533 --> 00:02:45,200
- I would.
- It's very unusual.
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00:02:48,233 --> 00:02:49,300
Thank you.
60
00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,166
- Okay.
- Can I see it? Thank you.
61
00:03:01,967 --> 00:03:06,734
And on approximately what month
and year did you loan Jim this gun?
62
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,834
- Well...
- "Well" is not an answer,
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00:03:08,900 --> 00:03:11,567
so let's think carefully,
because we know--
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00:03:11,633 --> 00:03:12,800
Probably a month,
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00:03:12,867 --> 00:03:15,100
approximately before he died,
which was--
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00:03:15,166 --> 00:03:16,533
- Well, I don't know when that was.
- September.
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00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,400
{\an8}September 8th I believe,
he passed away in 2021.
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00:03:20,700 --> 00:03:22,367
How did you find out that he passed away?
69
00:03:22,433 --> 00:03:25,166
{\an8}I believe Mary here, who's
here because of the fact
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00:03:25,233 --> 00:03:28,834
{\an8}that she care-gave for him while he was
going through cancer treatments.
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00:03:28,900 --> 00:03:32,233
{\an8}She was his reason for staying alive,
and she also did witness,
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00:03:32,300 --> 00:03:34,467
uh, some things
that happened in this case.
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00:03:34,533 --> 00:03:36,166
Okay. I'll get to you in a second.
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00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,100
So he passed away on November 8.
75
00:03:39,166 --> 00:03:41,467
- He died on September 9th.
- Ninth.
76
00:03:41,533 --> 00:03:42,834
- Yeah.
- Okay.
77
00:03:42,900 --> 00:03:44,467
And--and-- Okay.
78
00:03:46,300 --> 00:03:48,467
Prior to his passing away,
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00:03:48,533 --> 00:03:51,934
Jim and Mr. Klun had some business deal,
80
00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,533
and Mr. Klun believed that
Jim owed him money.
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00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:58,166
- {\an8}-
- So far, right?
- Correct.
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00:03:58,233 --> 00:04:03,200
{\an8}And after Jim died,
Mr. Klun went to Jim's home
83
00:04:03,266 --> 00:04:07,433
and took several things from
the home to satisfy that debt.
84
00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:10,567
No, I did not do that, Your Honor.
I never came back to the house.
85
00:04:10,633 --> 00:04:11,767
I never took anything.
86
00:04:11,834 --> 00:04:16,400
{\an8}Everything I received,
I received prior to his death.
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00:04:16,467 --> 00:04:20,233
{\an8}Okay. Tell me when
you received the gun
88
00:04:20,300 --> 00:04:22,467
{\an8}that belonged to Mr. Lakosky.
89
00:04:22,533 --> 00:04:26,734
- Looks like 5-20-21.
- Can I see what you have
90
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,266
that indicates that you received
the gun in May?
91
00:04:29,333 --> 00:04:31,333
Because you gave it to him
92
00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,367
about a month before he died?
93
00:04:33,433 --> 00:04:34,500
- Approximately a month.
- Well--
94
00:04:34,567 --> 00:04:35,900
It could have been a little longer.
95
00:04:35,967 --> 00:04:37,033
It had to be longer.
96
00:04:37,100 --> 00:04:39,667
- Okay.
- I picked it up the fifth month.
97
00:04:39,734 --> 00:04:41,033
- In May.
- Yes.
98
00:04:41,100 --> 00:04:44,400
Okay, and you couldn't
have given it to him in August?
99
00:04:44,467 --> 00:04:45,567
Yeah, right.
100
00:04:45,633 --> 00:04:47,367
- It had to be before then.
- Okay.
101
00:04:47,433 --> 00:04:51,233
And tell me the circumstances--
because that's what this case is about.
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00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:54,033
{\an8}Mr. Lakosky claims that it was his gun.
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00:04:54,100 --> 00:04:57,633
{\an8}It was a loan,
you had no right because you took it.
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00:04:57,700 --> 00:04:59,800
You got it.
Evidently, you tell me from Jim,
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00:04:59,867 --> 00:05:01,967
and then subsequently sold it.
106
00:05:02,033 --> 00:05:03,033
- Yes.
- Yes. Okay.
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00:05:03,100 --> 00:05:06,133
So I want you to tell
me the circumstances surrounding
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00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:10,367
your getting possession
of this gun in May of 2021.
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00:05:10,433 --> 00:05:14,066
{\an8}Jim was in need of money,
so I loaned him money,
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00:05:14,166 --> 00:05:17,233
{\an8}and in trade for the money
as collateral, he said he would--
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00:05:17,300 --> 00:05:18,867
Okay. I don't want to
let you tell me this
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00:05:18,934 --> 00:05:20,166
- because Jim's not here,
- Right.
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00:05:20,233 --> 00:05:21,867
so I'm going to have to get
more specifics
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00:05:21,934 --> 00:05:23,533
from people who are his caregivers
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00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,834
to buttress
what you're saying to me,
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00:05:25,900 --> 00:05:27,300
He needed some money.
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00:05:27,367 --> 00:05:29,867
- How did you know him?
- Best friends from high school.
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00:05:29,934 --> 00:05:32,166
- And you remained friends?
- Yes.
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00:05:32,233 --> 00:05:34,700
How did you find
out that Jim needed money?
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00:05:34,767 --> 00:05:37,734
{\an8}Jim called me up,
and he was getting scammed,
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00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,200
{\an8}but he wanted the money,
and he told me--
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00:05:40,266 --> 00:05:42,200
He was getting scammed by whom?
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00:05:42,266 --> 00:05:43,834
I don't know who it was.
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00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:46,934
But anyway, I would give him $2,500,
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00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,033
he would go to the post office
and mail it somewhere.
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00:05:50,100 --> 00:05:51,433
But every time he did that,
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00:05:51,500 --> 00:05:55,000
I would receive collateral
of motorcycles or guns.
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00:05:55,066 --> 00:05:57,233
Just a second.
I want you to run this by me.
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00:05:57,300 --> 00:05:59,967
Jim called you and said,
"I'm being scammed"?
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00:06:00,100 --> 00:06:02,633
No, no, I think he's being scammed.
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00:06:02,700 --> 00:06:04,800
- I don't care what you think.
- Okay. Okay.
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00:06:04,867 --> 00:06:06,700
What you think is unimportant to me.
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00:06:06,767 --> 00:06:10,200
I want you to tell me
the circumstances surrounding
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00:06:10,266 --> 00:06:11,700
the money that you gave to him.
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00:06:11,767 --> 00:06:13,033
He called you and said...?
136
00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:14,433
He needed to borrow money.
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00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:15,600
I borrowed him the money.
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00:06:15,667 --> 00:06:17,367
No, no, "I need to borrow money."
139
00:06:17,433 --> 00:06:19,467
Had you ever loaned him money before?
140
00:06:19,533 --> 00:06:20,700
- Yes.
- Often?
141
00:06:20,767 --> 00:06:23,200
No. In the last year of his life,
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00:06:23,266 --> 00:06:25,367
I did probably a half a dozen times.
143
00:06:25,433 --> 00:06:26,467
Just in the last year.
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00:06:26,533 --> 00:06:30,266
So when he called you and said,
"I need to borrow some money,"
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00:06:30,333 --> 00:06:32,767
the reaction, even from a best friend,
146
00:06:32,834 --> 00:06:35,867
would be, "Of course,
if you need money, tell me why."
147
00:06:35,934 --> 00:06:38,633
Right? That's a natural question.
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00:06:38,700 --> 00:06:41,333
And so that's what
you asked him, "Tell me why."
149
00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,133
And I asked him that question,
and he said he was going to
150
00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,400
be receiving a million or $2 million
in the next few months.
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00:06:47,467 --> 00:06:48,367
Okay,
152
00:06:50,867 --> 00:06:56,633
So you brought Mr. Lakosky's
gun back to Jim while he was alive?
153
00:06:56,700 --> 00:06:58,333
No, I sold the gun.
154
00:06:58,400 --> 00:06:59,333
Keep going.
155
00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,300
So you so--
156
00:07:01,367 --> 00:07:03,166
- This was to--
- Just-- Tell the truth.
157
00:07:03,233 --> 00:07:04,467
You don't have to
have a good memory.
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00:07:15,367 --> 00:07:19,533
{\an8}Allen Lakosky claims
business owner Gene Klun
159
00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,233
{\an8}owes for a semiautomatic rifle.
160
00:07:22,300 --> 00:07:24,533
So did you ask him how?
161
00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,000
I asked him how,
and he said he had it all planned
162
00:07:27,066 --> 00:07:29,500
with this guy he was sending the money to.
163
00:07:29,567 --> 00:07:32,300
That's all he told you about it,
or did he go into specifics?
164
00:07:32,367 --> 00:07:36,166
It had to sound
interesting to you, Mr. Klun,
165
00:07:36,233 --> 00:07:39,500
because if my best friend
called me and said,
166
00:07:39,567 --> 00:07:41,500
"I need to borrow some money,"
167
00:07:41,567 --> 00:07:43,500
and I said, "Tell me why."
168
00:07:43,567 --> 00:07:48,633
And she said, "Because I'm going
to come into a million dollars shortly,
169
00:07:48,700 --> 00:07:51,200
but I need to borrow money
to get it to this guy
170
00:07:51,266 --> 00:07:53,400
before I get the million dollars."
171
00:07:53,467 --> 00:07:56,166
I would say, "Explain that to me."
172
00:07:56,233 --> 00:07:58,300
- {\an8}-
- And I did. And he said--
- And he said?
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00:07:58,367 --> 00:08:03,133
{\an8}He said that he would be receiving money
in the next month or two months.
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00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,767
Mr. Klun, then you would say,
175
00:08:05,834 --> 00:08:08,934
"How does that-- and can I get in on it?"
176
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,333
You know, if I'm sending you $2,500,
177
00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,734
which is what you said you gave him,
178
00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,834
I would say, "Oh, gee, $2,500,
that's a reasonable investment,
179
00:08:17,900 --> 00:08:21,400
and I'm going to get a return on
my money of a million dollars shortly?"
180
00:08:21,467 --> 00:08:24,100
I would say,
"Is there any piece of that for me?"
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00:08:24,166 --> 00:08:26,567
I didn't question him.
He just wanted the money.
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00:08:26,633 --> 00:08:28,834
And he said in return for the money,
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00:08:28,900 --> 00:08:32,433
he would give me
the motorcycles and guns as collateral.
184
00:08:32,500 --> 00:08:36,667
Okay, may I please see the
written agreement that you had?
185
00:08:36,734 --> 00:08:38,367
Verbal.
186
00:08:38,433 --> 00:08:41,133
So other than you and Jim,
187
00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,066
{\an8}nobody knew about this agreement?
188
00:08:43,133 --> 00:08:44,333
{\an8}Not that I'm aware of.
189
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,500
{\an8}Now, when was
the first time you gave him money?
190
00:08:47,567 --> 00:08:49,800
{\an8}Looks like, uh, May.
191
00:08:49,867 --> 00:08:52,000
{\an8}- May?
- Of two-thousand...
192
00:08:52,066 --> 00:08:53,333
Twenty-one.
193
00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,000
Okay. When was
the last time you gave him money?
194
00:08:56,066 --> 00:08:58,166
7-6-21.
195
00:08:58,233 --> 00:09:01,633
Between May of 2021
and the beginning of July,
196
00:09:01,700 --> 00:09:03,100
how many times did you give him money?
197
00:09:03,166 --> 00:09:04,066
Four times.
198
00:09:04,133 --> 00:09:06,834
And you have that
documented with bank records, et cetera?
199
00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:08,300
- Right here, Your Honor.
- Okay, great.
200
00:09:08,367 --> 00:09:10,600
And tell me how
much in total you gave him.
201
00:09:10,667 --> 00:09:12,400
$7,500.
202
00:09:12,467 --> 00:09:14,533
Kevin, would you bring me the documents
203
00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,533
that Mr. Klun is looking at, please?
204
00:09:17,567 --> 00:09:20,233
So in total, you gave him $7,500,
205
00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:21,867
and in return, according to you,
206
00:09:21,934 --> 00:09:24,367
you took possession
of how many motorcycles?
207
00:09:24,433 --> 00:09:27,233
- Three motorcycles.
- And they belong to Jim?
208
00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:30,700
And he signed over
the titles and everything to me.
209
00:09:30,767 --> 00:09:32,266
Well, they were collateral.
210
00:09:32,333 --> 00:09:34,233
{\an8}Right, but he signed over everything
211
00:09:34,300 --> 00:09:36,600
{\an8}and gave me the titles for everything.
212
00:09:36,667 --> 00:09:38,367
Can I see the titles to the motorcycles?
213
00:09:38,433 --> 00:09:39,467
{\an8}They're sold, ma'am.
214
00:09:39,533 --> 00:09:43,033
- Interesting.
- As well as the rifles that I got also.
215
00:09:43,100 --> 00:09:44,834
- I'm just asking you,
- Yeah.
216
00:09:44,900 --> 00:09:48,567
do you have the sales receipts
from the three motorcycles?
217
00:09:48,633 --> 00:09:50,133
There were three?
Did you say three?
218
00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:51,200
Yeah.
219
00:09:51,266 --> 00:09:52,500
Do you have the sales receipts
220
00:09:52,567 --> 00:09:54,667
from the three motorcycles
that you say you sold?
221
00:09:54,734 --> 00:09:57,734
No, but I was paid
$5,000 in cash for the three motor--
222
00:09:57,800 --> 00:09:59,700
How am I supposed to know that, sir?
223
00:09:59,767 --> 00:10:01,300
You sold three motorcycles.
224
00:10:01,367 --> 00:10:02,967
- Okay. Okay.
- How am I supposed to know?
225
00:10:03,033 --> 00:10:05,433
I mean, all of this
is coming out of nowhere...
226
00:10:06,633 --> 00:10:10,100
actually, with no proof whatsoever.
227
00:10:10,166 --> 00:10:14,667
Unless you're prepared to give
me some flesh on this bone of a case.
228
00:10:14,734 --> 00:10:16,433
Could you stand up?
Your first name is Mary?
229
00:10:16,500 --> 00:10:18,333
- Yes, it is.
- What's your last name?
230
00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:19,800
Wellman.
231
00:10:19,867 --> 00:10:21,233
Were you Jim's caregiver?
232
00:10:21,300 --> 00:10:24,400
Yes. I lived in, uh,
in the upstairs of his house.
233
00:10:24,467 --> 00:10:25,567
Were you a tenant?
234
00:10:25,633 --> 00:10:28,066
{\an8}We were friends since the late nineties,
235
00:10:28,133 --> 00:10:30,033
{\an8}when I first moved to the area.
236
00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:34,500
{\an8}So, regular caregiver of
his or were you just as needed?
237
00:10:34,567 --> 00:10:38,333
He had developed cancer
in the late nineties. And...
238
00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,433
I stayed then-- I lived with him
239
00:10:41,500 --> 00:10:45,900
in the first two years
because of the fifty-fifty survival rate
240
00:10:45,967 --> 00:10:49,633
and the constant trips
to the Mayo Clinic from where we lived
241
00:10:49,700 --> 00:10:51,433
were an entire day trip.
242
00:10:51,500 --> 00:10:54,467
And then after about three years,
243
00:10:54,533 --> 00:10:57,333
when he was kind of back on
his feet again, I moved out.
244
00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,567
But we remained friends
and we rode motorcycles together
245
00:11:01,633 --> 00:11:04,166
and we did lots together and--
246
00:11:04,233 --> 00:11:06,934
- So you lived in the house?
- Yeah, and I moved back in--
247
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,133
In-- Okay.
248
00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,200
Okay. Were you living in the house
249
00:11:10,266 --> 00:11:12,900
when he bought these three motorcycles?
250
00:11:12,967 --> 00:11:14,533
Two of them I was. Um...
251
00:11:15,066 --> 00:11:19,934
A--a dual sport that
he had changed or upgraded
252
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,800
to ride a little bit more rough terrain,
possibly into Canada.
253
00:11:25,100 --> 00:11:26,934
Yeah, that's why I recall that one.
254
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:28,200
That much flesh on the bones
I don't need.
255
00:11:28,266 --> 00:11:30,900
- Okay, I'm sorry.
- Did he buy them new or used?
256
00:11:30,967 --> 00:11:33,533
- He had bought them used.
- In approximately what year?
257
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,000
{\an8}Well, it would have been
during the cancer
258
00:11:36,066 --> 00:11:39,800
{\an8}and so it-- approximately 2000...
259
00:11:39,867 --> 00:11:41,867
- Okay.
- to 2003.
260
00:11:41,934 --> 00:11:44,233
Do you know anything
else about his dealings of Mr. Clum?
261
00:11:44,300 --> 00:11:47,834
I do know the motorcycles
were in the garage when Jim died.
262
00:11:47,900 --> 00:11:49,533
- No, they weren't.
- Don't.
263
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,567
- Okay.
- Don't speak.
264
00:11:51,633 --> 00:11:52,767
How do you know that?
265
00:11:52,834 --> 00:11:55,467
Well, I had-- on and off
go out there for things,
266
00:11:55,533 --> 00:11:59,367
but to-- then, Jim's nephew had come
267
00:11:59,433 --> 00:12:01,800
and removed one of the bikes
268
00:12:01,867 --> 00:12:04,233
right after Jim had passed away.
269
00:12:04,300 --> 00:12:06,233
So the nephew came and removed one.
270
00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:08,100
- Mm-hmm.
- But this was after he passed?
271
00:12:08,166 --> 00:12:10,166
- Yes.
- What's the nephew's first name?
272
00:12:10,233 --> 00:12:11,700
Anthony.
273
00:12:11,767 --> 00:12:13,233
Do you know Anthony, Mr. Klun?
274
00:12:13,300 --> 00:12:14,533
- Yes, I do.
- Okay.
275
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,700
Did you get
the motorcycle from Anthony?
276
00:12:16,767 --> 00:12:19,266
No, I got the motorcycles from Jim,
277
00:12:19,333 --> 00:12:21,100
the motorcycles that were left
278
00:12:21,166 --> 00:12:23,166
- after Jim passed away.
- Just a second.
279
00:12:23,233 --> 00:12:25,100
- Okay. Now you can sit down.
- M'kay.
280
00:12:25,166 --> 00:12:28,400
All right, Mr. Klun.
Do you have any statements,
281
00:12:28,467 --> 00:12:30,867
text messages or anything else
282
00:12:30,934 --> 00:12:34,300
indicating that Jim indicated to you
283
00:12:34,367 --> 00:12:38,700
that he could give you,
as collateral, this rifle?
284
00:12:38,767 --> 00:12:40,967
Other than the fact that
he had it in his possession.
285
00:12:41,033 --> 00:12:42,800
I got more than one rifle.
286
00:12:42,867 --> 00:12:46,400
I have checks that were written
out to Jim, and that's what we did.
287
00:12:46,467 --> 00:12:48,367
But that doesn't answer
my question, Mr. Klun.
288
00:12:48,433 --> 00:12:49,667
I don't care how many rifles he had.
289
00:12:49,734 --> 00:12:53,433
He only had one
that he gave to Jim
290
00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:56,500
because it was lighter
and easier to shoot.
291
00:12:56,567 --> 00:12:59,867
And as his illness progressed,
if I'm getting this right,
292
00:12:59,934 --> 00:13:03,500
it was hard for
him to pick up his own rifle.
293
00:13:03,567 --> 00:13:05,867
Now, he may have had more.
Probably did have more.
294
00:13:05,934 --> 00:13:08,133
Because you took more than one, right?
295
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:09,200
- Correct.
- Okay.
296
00:13:09,266 --> 00:13:10,900
How many rifles did you take?
297
00:13:10,967 --> 00:13:14,700
I took three rifles, five pistols--
298
00:13:14,767 --> 00:13:17,767
- I had to bring three of the rifles back--
- Where?
299
00:13:17,834 --> 00:13:19,633
To Jim, to get replacements.
300
00:13:19,700 --> 00:13:22,100
The guns that were from Mr. Lakosky--
301
00:13:22,166 --> 00:13:23,533
- Only one.
- Three of 'em.
302
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,433
{\an8}No, he said he only gave him one.
303
00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:27,533
- {\an8}-
- Oh, no. But there was three of them.
304
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,600
So you brought Mr. Lakosky's gun
305
00:13:30,667 --> 00:13:33,066
{\an8}back to Jim while he was alive?
306
00:13:33,133 --> 00:13:35,100
No, I sold the gun.
307
00:13:35,166 --> 00:13:36,967
Keep going. You sold--
308
00:13:37,033 --> 00:13:38,300
Just--
309
00:13:39,867 --> 00:13:42,166
Tell the truth.
You don't have to have a good memory.
310
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,800
If heaven forbid,
something happened to me
311
00:13:47,867 --> 00:13:51,533
and my dentist thought that
I owed him $25,000,
312
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,400
he couldn't come into my house and say,
313
00:13:53,467 --> 00:13:58,033
"Gee, this Ming vase is just
going to cover my dental bill."
314
00:13:58,100 --> 00:14:00,300
You can't do that.
And that's what you did.
315
00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:16,166
{\an8}Allen Lakosky is
accusing business owner Gene Klun
316
00:14:16,233 --> 00:14:18,667
{\an8}of selling his semiautomatic rifle
317
00:14:18,734 --> 00:14:20,100
{\an8}without permission.
318
00:14:20,166 --> 00:14:24,133
Keep going. So you sold it. You didn't
take it back to him to get a replacement?
319
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:25,266
- No. You misu--
- To Jim.
320
00:14:25,333 --> 00:14:28,333
You misunderstood.
The gun that Mr. Lakosky had,
321
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:29,400
I kept that one.
322
00:14:29,467 --> 00:14:34,500
{\an8}The one that belongs to Mr. Lakosky,
you sold it?
323
00:14:34,567 --> 00:14:36,567
- {\an8}-
- Correct, because--
- So just a second.
324
00:14:36,633 --> 00:14:38,667
{\an8}Sold it to whom?
325
00:14:38,734 --> 00:14:41,166
The gun dealer in Virginia, Minnesota.
326
00:14:41,233 --> 00:14:44,200
Great. And for that, you have a receipt?
327
00:14:44,266 --> 00:14:45,767
- Yes.
- I'd like to see it.
328
00:14:45,834 --> 00:14:47,967
I left it at home.
329
00:14:48,033 --> 00:14:49,367
- Your Honor, I--
- Oh, Mr. Klun.
330
00:14:49,433 --> 00:14:50,433
- Mr. Klun--
- Oh, he has it right there.
331
00:14:50,500 --> 00:14:52,734
Look, Mr. Klun.
He doesn't have to prove...
332
00:14:53,433 --> 00:14:54,600
anything to me.
333
00:14:54,667 --> 00:14:58,900
I believe that you
resorted to self-help to claim a debt.
334
00:14:58,967 --> 00:15:03,433
If--if it's true,
and you did in fact, give him money,
335
00:15:03,500 --> 00:15:07,200
I actually don't believe that a
guy like you would give him all this money
336
00:15:07,266 --> 00:15:10,900
without trying to find out what
the scam was, or at least tell him,
337
00:15:10,967 --> 00:15:13,467
"Jim, it sounds to me
like you're being scammed.
338
00:15:13,533 --> 00:15:18,133
Somebody in Transylvania
sent you an email that said
339
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,367
a long distant relative of yours
died and left you a million dollars.
340
00:15:22,433 --> 00:15:25,700
I need $2,500 in order to
clear the paperwork
341
00:15:25,767 --> 00:15:27,000
to send you a million dollars.
342
00:15:27,066 --> 00:15:30,567
And I will keep a little piece
for myself for finding you."
343
00:15:30,633 --> 00:15:33,100
You know how many
of those everybody gets?
344
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,233
I don't know
why people still believe that,
345
00:15:36,300 --> 00:15:39,867
but you evidently
believed that story four times.
346
00:15:39,934 --> 00:15:42,066
And not once did you say your friend,
347
00:15:42,133 --> 00:15:43,433
who was dying of cancer,
348
00:15:43,500 --> 00:15:45,567
"Jim, this is ridiculous.
349
00:15:45,633 --> 00:15:48,467
What you're doing is just
throwing good money after bad."
350
00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:52,033
I don't understand why
you didn't say that to him.
351
00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:54,700
Or if you did,
you would not have said to him
352
00:15:54,767 --> 00:15:58,867
unless you had something to gain,
which clearly you did.
353
00:15:58,934 --> 00:16:00,800
You sold the motorcycles.
354
00:16:00,867 --> 00:16:03,533
You don't have any proof
of what you sold them for.
355
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,667
You expect me to take your
word for the fact that you sold them
356
00:16:06,734 --> 00:16:10,867
for $5,000 in cash without proof.
357
00:16:10,934 --> 00:16:13,700
He owed you, if I were to believe you
358
00:16:13,767 --> 00:16:17,000
and these checks, $7,500.
359
00:16:17,066 --> 00:16:19,133
You sold the motorcycles, you sold guns.
360
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,900
But unfortunately,
one of the things that you sold
361
00:16:21,967 --> 00:16:23,367
{\an8}belonged to the plaintiff.
362
00:16:23,433 --> 00:16:25,633
{\an8}And when somebody dies,
there is an estate.
363
00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:28,400
{\an8}There's a judge
who decides what property there is.
364
00:16:28,467 --> 00:16:31,800
You know, if heaven forbid,
something happened to me,
365
00:16:31,867 --> 00:16:36,133
and my dentist
thought that I owed him $25,000,
366
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,900
he couldn't come into my house and say,
"Gee, I like this Ming vase.
367
00:16:39,967 --> 00:16:44,767
This Ming vase is just
going to cover my dental bill."
368
00:16:44,834 --> 00:16:46,834
You can't do that.
And that's what you did.
369
00:16:46,900 --> 00:16:48,233
You sold property.
370
00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:50,767
You may have had a claim
against his estate,
371
00:16:50,834 --> 00:16:53,700
if he in fact owed you money,
and if the state went to probate,
372
00:16:53,767 --> 00:16:54,967
I don't know, did he own a house?
373
00:16:55,033 --> 00:16:56,233
- Yes.
- Yes.
374
00:16:56,300 --> 00:16:57,633
Did he have children?
375
00:16:57,734 --> 00:16:59,500
No, he left the house to me.
376
00:16:59,567 --> 00:17:01,533
Okay, so he had an estate.
377
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,367
Clearly, there's money in
the estate because he left a house
378
00:17:04,433 --> 00:17:06,300
that has some value to someone else.
379
00:17:06,367 --> 00:17:10,100
So you cannot,
Mr. Clun, resort to self-help.
380
00:17:10,166 --> 00:17:14,700
And Mr. Lakosky is going to
show me the value of the gun that his--
381
00:17:14,767 --> 00:17:17,100
Yes. May I expound just a bit on this gun?
382
00:17:17,166 --> 00:17:18,166
I don't care about the gun.
383
00:17:18,233 --> 00:17:19,600
- The manufacturer--
- I don't care about the gun.
384
00:17:19,667 --> 00:17:21,533
- I don't care if it's a crown in my mouth.
- Okay.
385
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,100
What's the value of the gun?
386
00:17:24,166 --> 00:17:27,066
The value of the gun at
the time that this man took from...
387
00:17:27,133 --> 00:17:28,533
- Oh, no, just--
- of it...
388
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:29,667
Just give me an answer.
389
00:17:29,734 --> 00:17:32,900
It was $3,000. It's gained in value.
390
00:17:32,967 --> 00:17:35,433
Okay, well, who cares if
it's gained in value, sir?
391
00:17:35,500 --> 00:17:40,900
I'd like you to show me where
the gun is valued at $3,000.
392
00:17:40,967 --> 00:17:41,900
Did you look it up?
393
00:17:41,967 --> 00:17:45,767
I did. I have it.
It's listed-- from the same photo,
394
00:17:45,834 --> 00:17:49,433
I found the website-- listed for $2,500.
395
00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:52,734
Okay. My law clerk found an ad online.
396
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,100
Now you're going to show me
what you want to show me
397
00:17:55,166 --> 00:17:57,533
that the value is $3,000.
Let me see it, please.
398
00:17:58,333 --> 00:18:00,333
May I say something else about this guy?
399
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,200
Not--
Not until I look at this.
400
00:18:02,266 --> 00:18:04,967
I don't know what this is.
"Immediate checkout, credit card..."
401
00:18:05,633 --> 00:18:08,100
- What is this?
- Look at the very top, please.
402
00:18:08,166 --> 00:18:10,867
I see what this is.
I want to see what you paid for.
403
00:18:10,934 --> 00:18:13,033
This is something that's on sale.
"Starting bid."
404
00:18:13,100 --> 00:18:14,200
- It's just a typical price
- 28.
405
00:18:14,266 --> 00:18:15,834
of what they sell for on Gunbroker.
406
00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:17,967
- Okay. $2,500?
- Yes.
407
00:18:18,033 --> 00:18:18,900
Okay.
408
00:18:18,967 --> 00:18:21,133
Judgement for the plaintiff
in the amount of $2,500.
409
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:22,266
We're finished. Thank you.
410
00:18:22,333 --> 00:18:23,900
This court is adjourned.
411
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,100
{\an8}I'm pleased at the outcome
because the information needed
412
00:18:30,166 --> 00:18:33,333
{\an8}to be exposed that there
was something terribly wrong.
413
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,967
{\an8}Somebody waits for ten months
and finds out his gun is missing.
414
00:18:37,033 --> 00:18:42,467
{\an8}Too many different people, and no one
had the same answer from him at any time.
415
00:18:42,533 --> 00:18:44,533
- {\an8}-
- Something is wrong.
- I don't think he had a choice.
416
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,066
{\an8}It was the only
way he's going to win his case,
417
00:18:46,133 --> 00:18:48,400
{\an8}is because everything
is based on mistruth.
418
00:18:49,633 --> 00:18:52,667
I could not get
my mind around the defendant.
419
00:18:52,734 --> 00:18:55,400
To have a friend since high school
that you're best friends with,
420
00:18:55,467 --> 00:18:56,900
you remained good friends with--
421
00:18:56,967 --> 00:18:58,700
If one of my best friends came to me
422
00:18:58,767 --> 00:19:01,400
and told me,
"Hi, I just need to borrow $2,500,
423
00:19:01,467 --> 00:19:03,600
I'm going to be a millionaire
two months from now."
424
00:19:03,667 --> 00:19:05,033
I'd say, "Are you crazy?"
425
00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:06,934
There's so many of these
scams going around.
426
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,734
I know I've seen your phone
sometimes gets tripped up
427
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:10,867
- with the scammers...
- Oh, absolutely.
428
00:19:10,934 --> 00:19:12,700
and in the middle
of the night ringing off the hook.
429
00:19:12,767 --> 00:19:15,567
It's unfortunate that people
fall for these scams
430
00:19:15,633 --> 00:19:18,033
and really send their hard earned money,
431
00:19:18,100 --> 00:19:19,600
sometimes that they don't have,
432
00:19:19,667 --> 00:19:21,734
to these scam artists,
and they're never going to see it again.
433
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,967
And I think that people
have to be really vigilant.
434
00:19:24,033 --> 00:19:26,934
I know there's been
warnings and things like that that
435
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,734
I've seen more publicized
recently about scams
436
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,000
and just how detailed
and intricate they can seem,
437
00:19:32,066 --> 00:19:33,233
but it's really just--
438
00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:34,567
I get them all the time.
439
00:19:34,633 --> 00:19:35,767
- As you said,
- Yeah.
440
00:19:35,834 --> 00:19:38,066
I have to go like this and then delete.
441
00:19:38,133 --> 00:19:39,433
Delete. Delete.
442
00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:41,500
"Anton, please answer immediately.
443
00:19:41,567 --> 00:19:45,066
Your $3,000 refund is
sitting here waiting for you."
444
00:19:45,133 --> 00:19:46,767
- Non-existent.
- No.
445
00:19:46,834 --> 00:19:50,300
Sometimes they leave out Anton,
"Your $3,000 refund is here."
446
00:19:50,367 --> 00:19:51,533
Yeah. Gotta be smart.
447
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,567
And you know, Sarah,
a couple of years ago,
448
00:19:53,633 --> 00:19:55,166
I don't know whether you remember,
449
00:19:55,233 --> 00:19:56,433
but I just thought about it.
450
00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:58,767
People were calling me
and saying to me,
451
00:19:58,834 --> 00:20:01,266
"Judy, I didn't know that you
went into the cosmetics business."
452
00:20:01,333 --> 00:20:03,133
- Oh, yes, I do remember.
- Do you remember?
453
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,266
And the people who crafted
the advertisement,
454
00:20:07,333 --> 00:20:10,633
you know, with all kinds of real logos
455
00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:12,233
- on the top of it--
- Reviews and--
456
00:20:12,300 --> 00:20:13,867
- Reviews and I tried this stuff.
- Mm-hmm.
457
00:20:13,934 --> 00:20:16,500
And I remember being
at the gym working out,
458
00:20:16,567 --> 00:20:18,400
and a woman came over to me and said,
459
00:20:18,467 --> 00:20:21,467
you know, "I bought your cosmetics,
and they were really terrible.
460
00:20:21,533 --> 00:20:23,133
And they keep sending them to me
461
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,800
- every month--"
- And probably charging her credit card.
462
00:20:25,867 --> 00:20:27,000
And charging her credit card.
463
00:20:27,066 --> 00:20:30,200
And I tried every vehicle
in the government
464
00:20:30,266 --> 00:20:32,967
- Mm-hmm.
- To try to get somebody to...
465
00:20:33,033 --> 00:20:34,767
- Shut it down.
- track it down.
466
00:20:34,834 --> 00:20:37,667
And the answer was
they're so smart,
467
00:20:37,734 --> 00:20:40,233
that they use internationally--
468
00:20:40,300 --> 00:20:41,300
Y-you don't know where they could be.
469
00:20:41,367 --> 00:20:44,033
They could be in Peru,
they could be in Chile,
470
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:46,200
they could be in Brazil,
they could be in Canada.
471
00:20:46,266 --> 00:20:49,834
And I know that there are
many other celebrities
472
00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:52,033
- who were caught with the same
- Yeah.
473
00:20:52,100 --> 00:20:55,266
scam net, but this guy said,
"My friend Jim
474
00:20:55,333 --> 00:20:57,400
- was probably getting scammed."
- Was getting scammed.
475
00:20:57,467 --> 00:20:59,934
And why would you provide
him the money to get scammed?
476
00:21:00,066 --> 00:21:02,700
Absolutely right.
Didn't believe me. You're right.
477
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:05,600
Want justice?
478
00:21:05,667 --> 00:21:08,200
{\an8}Go to JudyJustice TV.