1 00:00:13,014 --> 00:00:15,350 Okay. Are we getting in these canoes? 2 00:00:16,017 --> 00:00:18,603 We're going with the flow. Hello. 3 00:00:18,687 --> 00:00:19,938 Hello. Hi, I'm Shannon. 4 00:00:20,021 --> 00:00:22,983 -I am so happy to meet you, Shannon. -Same. 5 00:00:23,066 --> 00:00:25,902 This is so terrific of you guys to do this. 6 00:00:25,986 --> 00:00:27,571 -Sam? -Hi, yes. Nice to meet you. 7 00:00:27,654 --> 00:00:29,656 -It's so great to meet you. -Nice to meet you. 8 00:00:30,740 --> 00:00:31,741 The heron. 9 00:00:31,825 --> 00:00:34,703 Oh, yeah. I see it. Look how well it blends in. 10 00:00:35,245 --> 00:00:37,539 So this is, like, one of your favorite places, huh? 11 00:00:37,622 --> 00:00:39,499 When everything in the world is overwhelming, 12 00:00:39,583 --> 00:00:42,085 my favorite thing to do is just to take people to the river. 13 00:00:42,168 --> 00:00:46,923 Like, just-- Let's go be quiet, be by the water, watch the birds. 14 00:00:47,007 --> 00:00:49,509 Even when there's terrible things happening around you… 15 00:00:49,593 --> 00:00:51,720 -Hundred percent. -…there's still this. 16 00:00:51,803 --> 00:00:52,971 I like the pink flower. 17 00:00:53,054 --> 00:00:54,931 Thank you. If you have a big, giant flower on you, 18 00:00:55,015 --> 00:00:57,517 -you have to live up to it. -It does sort of make your smile ma-- 19 00:00:57,601 --> 00:00:59,269 A different way to fake it till you make it. 20 00:00:59,769 --> 00:01:01,438 Exactly. 21 00:01:02,564 --> 00:01:04,773 Wow. This has got quite a current, doesn't it? 22 00:01:06,276 --> 00:01:08,028 Shannon, does your tattoo have a meaning? 23 00:01:08,987 --> 00:01:12,824 Yeah. It's a white power tattoo that I haven't gotten covered up. 24 00:01:12,908 --> 00:01:14,117 Well, it's a Celtic cross. 25 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,912 It rose to, like, prominence in the white power scene 26 00:01:16,995 --> 00:01:19,789 because you couldn't have swastikas in Germany. 27 00:01:19,873 --> 00:01:21,291 For a long time, I was just like, 28 00:01:21,374 --> 00:01:24,085 "Well, I don't wanna cover it up 'cause, like, I can't outrun my past." 29 00:01:24,169 --> 00:01:27,214 But then a few years ago, I was at Unite the Right 2. 30 00:01:27,297 --> 00:01:30,217 I had a shirt on that was like, "I'm a former neo-Nazi, ask me questions." 31 00:01:30,300 --> 00:01:32,761 And I was talking with these Black activists 32 00:01:32,844 --> 00:01:36,765 and gave my reasons for why I had, like, not covered it up or whatever. 33 00:01:36,848 --> 00:01:39,935 And, like-- And she was just like, "Yeah, well, like, it can still do harm." 34 00:01:40,018 --> 00:01:41,603 So now, I actually wanna get, like, 35 00:01:41,686 --> 00:01:43,980 a life-size blue heron as my cover-up for it. 36 00:01:44,064 --> 00:01:45,440 -I was just saving up the money still. -Yeah. 37 00:01:45,523 --> 00:01:48,360 I have eight kids. I'm like, food? Tattoos? But it goes to food. 38 00:01:48,443 --> 00:01:50,862 The idea that you have eight kids and you're doing this work. 39 00:01:50,946 --> 00:01:52,989 I mean, holy moly, the definition of "gutsy." 40 00:01:53,073 --> 00:01:53,949 Yeah. 41 00:01:54,032 --> 00:01:58,370 The easiest way for me to explain what I do is that I fight literal Nazis 42 00:01:58,453 --> 00:02:01,498 and help literal Nazis not be Nazis anymore. 43 00:02:03,083 --> 00:02:07,462 I'm going to a hate brunch where gutsy women eat hate for breakfast. 44 00:02:07,546 --> 00:02:10,840 I'ma come at you with my confidence. I'ma come at you with just my life. 45 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,854 So, somebody put together Keurig coffee machines 46 00:02:24,938 --> 00:02:28,692 of different colors with my various pantsuits. 47 00:02:28,775 --> 00:02:32,404 -Okay. -So, there's a very nice sort of orange. 48 00:02:32,487 --> 00:02:33,446 There's a yellow. 49 00:02:33,530 --> 00:02:35,782 There's a kind of burgundy. 50 00:02:36,283 --> 00:02:37,826 There's another whole row. Look at that. 51 00:02:37,909 --> 00:02:40,704 The red, the green. The pink. 52 00:02:41,204 --> 00:02:43,540 And the pink one even is open, 'cause your mouth is open. 53 00:02:43,623 --> 00:02:46,209 -So I appreciate the attention to detail. -Yes. Yeah. 54 00:02:46,293 --> 00:02:48,837 -I got a big kick out of it. -Well. 55 00:02:49,379 --> 00:02:52,507 I've never understood the obsession with my teeth. 56 00:02:52,591 --> 00:02:55,677 "Chelsea Clinton holds a world record for longest two front teeth, 57 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,512 and it will never be broken." 58 00:02:57,596 --> 00:03:01,141 "Nasty. Ugly." 59 00:03:01,766 --> 00:03:03,685 "An ugly Scorpio?" 60 00:03:03,768 --> 00:03:06,730 Or, you know, "I wish that you were dead. 61 00:03:06,813 --> 00:03:09,649 If your mother was really pro-choice, she would've aborted you." 62 00:03:09,733 --> 00:03:13,069 When we are talking with people who are refusing hate, 63 00:03:13,153 --> 00:03:14,654 standing up to hate-- 64 00:03:14,738 --> 00:03:16,364 We've had to do that ourselves, 65 00:03:16,448 --> 00:03:20,368 and sadly, you've seen that most of your life because of, 66 00:03:20,452 --> 00:03:22,787 you know, your own experiences. 67 00:03:22,871 --> 00:03:28,043 I don't really remember a time in my life when I wasn't aware of the hate, 68 00:03:28,126 --> 00:03:34,841 the almost kind of whisper of violence around our family. 69 00:03:34,925 --> 00:03:39,095 What's really impressive about the women in this episode 70 00:03:39,179 --> 00:03:43,600 is how they've rid themselves of their own hatreds or resentments 71 00:03:43,683 --> 00:03:46,686 or biases in order to be liberated from that. 72 00:03:47,270 --> 00:03:50,815 So, we're going to my late mother's favorite restaurant, 73 00:03:50,899 --> 00:03:53,693 Cactus Cantina, with three really gutsy women. 74 00:03:54,402 --> 00:03:56,279 We have coming to brunch Jemele Hill. 75 00:03:56,363 --> 00:03:58,531 -Hello! Nice to meet you. -So nice to meet you too. 76 00:03:58,615 --> 00:04:01,117 -Are we hugging or-- -Yeah. We are definitely hugging. 77 00:04:01,201 --> 00:04:02,202 -Okay. -Hundred percent. 78 00:04:02,285 --> 00:04:03,745 Then Negin Farsad. 79 00:04:03,828 --> 00:04:05,288 -Hi. Nice to meet-- -How are you? 80 00:04:05,372 --> 00:04:07,290 -And Shannon Watts. -So good to see you. 81 00:04:07,374 --> 00:04:09,960 So, I'm going to a hate brunch. 82 00:04:10,043 --> 00:04:15,340 It's kind of where gutsy women basically eat hate for breakfast, 83 00:04:15,757 --> 00:04:19,803 along with chimichangas and margaritas. 84 00:04:20,887 --> 00:04:23,348 So, I used to come to this restaurant a lot 85 00:04:23,431 --> 00:04:26,726 with my grandmother and my boyfriend but now husband. 86 00:04:26,810 --> 00:04:28,270 I was the designated driver. 87 00:04:28,937 --> 00:04:30,939 There would be even more than one pitcher of margaritas. 88 00:04:31,022 --> 00:04:33,942 -It sounds like they were doing it right. -Yes, they were. Thank you. 89 00:04:35,485 --> 00:04:38,488 Well, I can't thank you guys enough for being here. 90 00:04:38,572 --> 00:04:41,950 This is about gutsy women rejecting hate 91 00:04:42,033 --> 00:04:43,326 and standing up to hate. 92 00:04:43,410 --> 00:04:46,955 And being able to repudiate it and resist it, 93 00:04:47,038 --> 00:04:48,373 but also try to go beyond it. 94 00:04:48,456 --> 00:04:53,837 Each of you have certainly received a bunch of negativity for what you do 95 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,214 and who you are, what you stand for, and how you speak out. 96 00:04:57,674 --> 00:05:00,218 You want me to read these? Half the ones you sent me are so dirty. 97 00:05:00,302 --> 00:05:02,929 "Moms demand what? Dick?" 98 00:05:03,013 --> 00:05:04,389 "God, her voice sucks and is annoying. 99 00:05:04,472 --> 00:05:07,017 My ears are starting to bleed after this shit." 100 00:05:07,100 --> 00:05:09,019 "Jemele Hill is trending. 101 00:05:09,102 --> 00:05:11,021 What stupid racist shit came out of her mouth today?" 102 00:05:11,104 --> 00:05:14,816 "Franzia-obsessed cul-de-sac driveway day drinkers." 103 00:05:14,900 --> 00:05:15,984 That sounds like fun. 104 00:05:17,319 --> 00:05:19,738 You know, Shannon, you literally threw yourself 105 00:05:19,821 --> 00:05:23,992 into the battle against the gun lobby, the NRA in particular. 106 00:05:24,075 --> 00:05:26,828 Can you give us a little bit of that background? 107 00:05:26,912 --> 00:05:28,455 I was folding laundry. 108 00:05:28,538 --> 00:05:31,499 I saw breaking news that there have-- was an active shooter 109 00:05:32,375 --> 00:05:34,711 in an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut. 110 00:05:34,794 --> 00:05:40,508 As we learned that 20 children and six educators had been slaughtered, 111 00:05:40,592 --> 00:05:42,219 I became really angry. 112 00:05:42,302 --> 00:05:46,097 Right away, the group of strangers from all across the country, 113 00:05:46,181 --> 00:05:47,682 we'd all met through Facebook. 114 00:05:47,766 --> 00:05:51,269 We realized what we needed to do was go toe-to-toe with the gun lobby. 115 00:05:51,353 --> 00:05:54,231 We had to show up at every gun bill hearing. 116 00:05:54,314 --> 00:05:58,944 And here we are, almost nine years later, and we are winning. 117 00:05:59,027 --> 00:06:00,403 The NRA decided to go after me. 118 00:06:00,487 --> 00:06:04,741 And they started posting graphics about how I was deleting the comments. 119 00:06:05,492 --> 00:06:07,369 And then I disabled my comments, 120 00:06:07,452 --> 00:06:09,788 and they made graphics saying that I had disabled my comments. 121 00:06:09,871 --> 00:06:13,291 This is the NRA. This is how they are spending their time. 122 00:06:13,375 --> 00:06:16,586 And to me, it just shows that I'm living rent-free in their head. 123 00:06:17,212 --> 00:06:20,674 My favorite thing that makes gun extremists so angry 124 00:06:20,757 --> 00:06:25,262 is that our volunteers have started knitting during gun bill hearings. 125 00:06:25,345 --> 00:06:26,596 These gun bill hearings… 126 00:06:27,847 --> 00:06:30,976 they sometimes last from, like, 8:00 in the morning to midnight. 127 00:06:31,059 --> 00:06:32,143 -Right. -Right? 128 00:06:32,227 --> 00:06:36,648 So, the amount of rage it instills in gun extremists. 129 00:06:36,731 --> 00:06:39,734 I mean, the tweets, like, "These bitches knitting." 130 00:06:40,902 --> 00:06:43,238 "We're making scarves, sir." Like, what-- 131 00:06:43,321 --> 00:06:46,283 That would be an awesome podcast. "These bitches knitting." 132 00:06:46,366 --> 00:06:50,120 There was this underbelly of America that I didn't really know existed. 133 00:06:50,203 --> 00:06:53,081 I started getting emails and calls and letters, 134 00:06:53,164 --> 00:06:56,877 and people driving by my house, wanting me to die. 135 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,423 Or threatening to sexually assault me or to kill or assault my children. 136 00:07:02,007 --> 00:07:05,552 I can remember this one day in Maryland when our Moms Demand Action volunteers 137 00:07:05,635 --> 00:07:09,556 showed up at the state house to support a bill that would disarm domestic abusers, 138 00:07:09,639 --> 00:07:12,517 and a whole group of extremists showed up to oppose them. 139 00:07:12,601 --> 00:07:15,061 We would be surrounded, mostly by men 140 00:07:15,145 --> 00:07:17,188 who were open-carrying semiautomatic rifles. 141 00:07:17,272 --> 00:07:18,189 Oh, gosh. 142 00:07:18,273 --> 00:07:20,817 And we just started having a conversation. 143 00:07:20,901 --> 00:07:22,319 Like, we just wanna keep guns 144 00:07:22,402 --> 00:07:24,613 out of the hands of the people who might kill women. 145 00:07:24,696 --> 00:07:27,032 People who are convicted abusers. 146 00:07:27,115 --> 00:07:29,451 They couldn't disagree, and they actually left. 147 00:07:29,534 --> 00:07:31,912 You know, they were like, "Okay, who can argue with that?" 148 00:07:32,787 --> 00:07:35,498 They wanted to intimidate us. They wanted to silence us. 149 00:07:36,666 --> 00:07:39,336 We could back down or we could double down. 150 00:07:40,378 --> 00:07:41,755 And so we doubled down. 151 00:07:51,806 --> 00:07:55,185 My mother really was the person who I think, 152 00:07:55,977 --> 00:07:59,356 gave me the resilience and the strength to stand up to bullies. 153 00:07:59,439 --> 00:08:01,233 You know, I was the new girl, they picked on me. 154 00:08:01,316 --> 00:08:03,485 My mother would send me out to play every day. 155 00:08:03,985 --> 00:08:05,487 The kids in the neighborhood, 156 00:08:05,570 --> 00:08:08,907 they, you know, just harassed me, knocked me down. 157 00:08:08,990 --> 00:08:11,993 I'd go back in crying, and my mother stood at the door. 158 00:08:12,077 --> 00:08:15,205 She said, "You can't come in. There's no place for cowards. 159 00:08:15,288 --> 00:08:16,581 You gotta go outside 160 00:08:16,665 --> 00:08:19,000 and you gotta figure out how to get along with those kids." 161 00:08:19,084 --> 00:08:23,713 And so out I went. But she was like that throughout my entire life. 162 00:08:23,797 --> 00:08:26,299 You know, just, "Everybody gets knocked down in life. 163 00:08:26,383 --> 00:08:28,176 What matters is whether you get back up." 164 00:08:28,260 --> 00:08:29,719 She said that all the time. 165 00:08:29,803 --> 00:08:31,388 "Life is not about what happens to you, 166 00:08:31,471 --> 00:08:33,139 it's about what you do with what happens to you." 167 00:08:33,222 --> 00:08:34,515 Exactly. 168 00:08:34,599 --> 00:08:38,770 You know, don't let anybody define who you are. You define who you are. 169 00:08:39,229 --> 00:08:41,690 Someone who very much embodies those words 170 00:08:41,773 --> 00:08:42,816 is Megan Thee Stallion. 171 00:08:43,775 --> 00:08:44,776 I'm so happy. 172 00:08:44,859 --> 00:08:46,528 She lives life on her own terms. 173 00:08:46,611 --> 00:08:49,239 But I will send them. This is, like, the best picture ever. 174 00:08:49,322 --> 00:08:51,449 Whether she's rapping, or going back to school 175 00:08:51,533 --> 00:08:54,119 to get her bachelor's degree in health administration. 176 00:08:54,202 --> 00:08:55,370 He's like, "Yes, give it to me." 177 00:08:55,453 --> 00:08:57,080 He's like, "Of course you all are surrounding me." 178 00:08:57,163 --> 00:08:58,873 "Look at me, I'm 40e." 179 00:08:58,957 --> 00:09:03,336 She is proving what's possible for women artists when you're not afraid. 180 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:08,133 I'm a savage Classy, bougie, ratchet, yeah 181 00:09:08,216 --> 00:09:12,971 Sassy, moody, nasty, hey, hey, yeah Acting stupid, what's happening? 182 00:09:13,054 --> 00:09:16,308 She certainly isn't bowed by the hate that she receives, 183 00:09:16,391 --> 00:09:18,476 and she unfortunately receives a lot of hate. 184 00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:21,563 She uses it to fuel her creativity, 185 00:09:21,646 --> 00:09:24,190 and I think that it perversely gives her a lot of energy. 186 00:09:24,274 --> 00:09:26,109 -Yeah, she's unapologetic. -Unapologetic. 187 00:09:27,152 --> 00:09:29,070 Acting stupid, what's happening? 188 00:09:29,154 --> 00:09:31,907 What's happening? What's happening? What's happening? 189 00:09:33,408 --> 00:09:36,870 COVID has definitely been a creative time for me. 190 00:09:36,953 --> 00:09:40,498 I've gotten back into painting. It makes me calm. 191 00:09:40,582 --> 00:09:43,043 And I was trying to please everybody and making everybody else happy. 192 00:09:43,126 --> 00:09:44,794 I was losing myself, I felt like. 193 00:09:44,878 --> 00:09:47,464 So, I just had to remember who I was, 194 00:09:47,547 --> 00:09:49,758 and I had to start spending more time by myself 195 00:09:49,841 --> 00:09:51,801 to just, you know, get back into me 196 00:09:51,885 --> 00:09:53,637 and figure out what makes me happy. 197 00:09:54,387 --> 00:09:56,806 I loved art as a kid. 198 00:09:56,890 --> 00:09:58,099 I was not good. 199 00:09:58,808 --> 00:10:01,311 My parents would come for a little, like, art show, 200 00:10:01,394 --> 00:10:03,939 and the teachers would invariably say something like, 201 00:10:04,022 --> 00:10:07,359 "We really appreciate Chelsea. She keeps her work station very clean." 202 00:10:07,442 --> 00:10:09,069 Yes. "She's just so tidy." 203 00:10:09,152 --> 00:10:10,654 Or they're like, "She is very punctual." 204 00:10:10,737 --> 00:10:12,948 -"One thing about her, she's on time." -"She's on time." 205 00:10:13,031 --> 00:10:15,533 -Kay. All right. -Yeah. 206 00:10:16,701 --> 00:10:20,747 Chelsea follows rap music. She has ever since she was a little girl. 207 00:10:21,289 --> 00:10:25,835 But I kind of came to awareness of you with Cardi B, "WAP". 208 00:10:27,462 --> 00:10:29,381 I've always wanted to do a song with Cardi. 209 00:10:29,464 --> 00:10:32,467 As soon as she sent me the song, I sent it back to her, like, the next day. 210 00:10:32,551 --> 00:10:34,052 And it was just so exciting. 211 00:10:34,135 --> 00:10:36,638 'Cause the men, they seem so confident in what they're saying. 212 00:10:36,721 --> 00:10:39,140 And they don't have no problem with talking about their sexuality 213 00:10:39,224 --> 00:10:40,684 and how they're gonna have sex with you. 214 00:10:40,767 --> 00:10:41,893 So I was, like, "Well… 215 00:10:42,686 --> 00:10:45,814 I can do that. And it's gonna sound fire coming from a woman." 216 00:10:45,897 --> 00:10:49,150 It's great to see women be so kind of fierce. 217 00:10:49,234 --> 00:10:52,070 That is my life's mission… 218 00:10:52,571 --> 00:10:55,282 to make sure that I'm always unapologetically me. 219 00:10:55,365 --> 00:10:59,661 Like, no matter what anybody says or how they act towards me, 220 00:10:59,744 --> 00:11:02,956 I don't ever want it to shift what I think about myself. 221 00:11:03,039 --> 00:11:05,500 If you knew me, you knew I was always like this. 222 00:11:05,584 --> 00:11:08,879 And it's just that, now it's, like, a bunch of people watching. 223 00:11:08,962 --> 00:11:13,008 Were you surprised, though, by the conservative backlash to you? 224 00:11:13,091 --> 00:11:17,512 I was surprised that in this day in time, 225 00:11:17,596 --> 00:11:22,225 that when you have so many options of so many things to look at and listen to, 226 00:11:22,309 --> 00:11:25,312 that the first thing that you wanna critique and talk about 227 00:11:25,395 --> 00:11:26,479 is something you don't like. 228 00:11:26,563 --> 00:11:28,648 That's like your one where you've got the-- 229 00:11:28,732 --> 00:11:31,902 the guy who looks like he's some kind of elected official… 230 00:11:31,985 --> 00:11:35,071 -Uh-huh. -…watching on his computer. 231 00:11:35,739 --> 00:11:36,740 -Yep. -Yeah. 232 00:11:36,823 --> 00:11:41,328 Stupid, regressive whores. 233 00:11:41,411 --> 00:11:45,957 You men that get online bashing Megan Thee Stallion's music, 234 00:11:46,041 --> 00:11:48,919 y'all have a lot to say about things that you say you're not impressed by 235 00:11:49,002 --> 00:11:50,295 and that you say you don't like. 236 00:11:50,378 --> 00:11:54,049 For somebody who thinks it's terrible, you sure have memorized the lyrics. 237 00:11:54,132 --> 00:11:56,635 Right. They dissect the lyrics, they dissect my life. 238 00:11:57,219 --> 00:11:59,763 Well, let me give y'all something y'all might actually wanna see. 239 00:12:00,263 --> 00:12:01,806 So I'm like, "Okay. Boom. Here you go." 240 00:12:01,890 --> 00:12:03,558 I remember hoes Used to clap for me happily 241 00:12:03,642 --> 00:12:05,602 Now I'm bossed up And them same hoes mad at me 242 00:12:05,685 --> 00:12:07,229 Acting like they ridin' Whole time tryin' to pass me 243 00:12:07,312 --> 00:12:09,105 Watchin' me go through it Still tryin' to drag me 244 00:12:09,189 --> 00:12:10,690 I think they secretly like it. 245 00:12:10,774 --> 00:12:11,900 I do too. 246 00:12:11,983 --> 00:12:14,861 Yeah. I feel like they're the majority of the views. 247 00:12:15,528 --> 00:12:18,156 What are the kind of craziest things people have said about you? 248 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,076 -People say a lot of crazy stuff. -Yes, they do. 249 00:12:21,701 --> 00:12:24,412 And I'm trying to keep it as PG as I can. 250 00:12:24,496 --> 00:12:30,168 Once I read that I wasn't really in school and I'm doing it for clout. 251 00:12:30,252 --> 00:12:32,128 And I'm like, "Okay." 252 00:12:32,212 --> 00:12:34,631 -People just make shit up. -It's just insane, it's like-- 253 00:12:34,714 --> 00:12:36,925 -Like, they just make stuff up. -And believe it. 254 00:12:37,008 --> 00:12:38,677 -They will argue down… -Oh, my gosh. Like-- 255 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:39,761 …that this is the truth. 256 00:12:39,844 --> 00:12:41,805 My husband and I got married before we got married. 257 00:12:41,888 --> 00:12:43,223 -I'm married every week. -You're married? 258 00:12:43,306 --> 00:12:44,307 -Yeah. -Married all the time. 259 00:12:44,391 --> 00:12:46,351 I've also been divorced. It was their-- 260 00:12:46,434 --> 00:12:48,103 -Didn't know. -Yeah, I didn't either. 261 00:12:48,186 --> 00:12:50,564 And then, when you respond, it's like, "You're supposed to be above it. 262 00:12:50,647 --> 00:12:53,942 You're supposed to be this and that." And I'm like, "Girl, I'm a human too." 263 00:12:54,526 --> 00:12:56,570 Like, you know what? I actually really don't care. 264 00:12:56,653 --> 00:12:58,822 You could probably have said the worst thing 265 00:12:58,905 --> 00:13:01,283 you could've ever said to me, and you just went about your day. 266 00:13:01,366 --> 00:13:05,745 You ate your sandwiches, you went to work. Like, you hung out with your family. 267 00:13:05,829 --> 00:13:08,957 You forgot you said it. And then I'm carrying it around all day. 268 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,627 So I'm like, "Okay, I definitely can't be carrying this baggage." 269 00:13:12,711 --> 00:13:17,299 Have you tried to limit how much you look personally online? 270 00:13:17,382 --> 00:13:20,135 -I had to take a break from social media. -I think you're smart. 271 00:13:20,218 --> 00:13:23,096 Yeah. I really wanted to work on some new music, and-- 272 00:13:23,179 --> 00:13:25,056 and actually write and get focused. 273 00:13:25,140 --> 00:13:27,726 Because when you, like, let a lot of outside noise in, 274 00:13:27,809 --> 00:13:30,270 it kind of, like, stops you from your, like-- your original mission. 275 00:13:30,353 --> 00:13:31,771 And I felt like that's what was happening. 276 00:13:38,028 --> 00:13:39,946 You see a lot of people attacking a woman, right? 277 00:13:40,030 --> 00:13:41,781 And then it's like, the first thing they think is, 278 00:13:41,865 --> 00:13:44,910 "Let's bandwagon on it. I also heard this. I also know that. 279 00:13:44,993 --> 00:13:47,996 And let's disregard how this may be making her feel right now. 280 00:13:48,079 --> 00:13:50,290 Look at her having a breakdown." Like, you know what I'm saying? 281 00:13:50,373 --> 00:13:53,793 Like, you put me through so much, and then when I finally start responding, 282 00:13:53,877 --> 00:13:56,296 now I'm crazy, now I'm having a mental breakdown. 283 00:13:56,379 --> 00:13:58,590 -It's always the same playbook, though. -Right. 284 00:13:58,673 --> 00:14:00,300 But then I had to really just learn 285 00:14:00,383 --> 00:14:02,677 that that's what comes with being a powerful woman. 286 00:14:02,761 --> 00:14:05,388 When you don't show any weakness, they try to keep on figuring out, 287 00:14:05,472 --> 00:14:08,183 -"What is it that's gonna make her tick?" -They want to break you down. 288 00:14:08,266 --> 00:14:11,353 As much as you come at me, I'ma come at you. I'ma be-- 289 00:14:11,436 --> 00:14:13,897 But I'ma come at you just with my confidence. 290 00:14:13,980 --> 00:14:15,732 I'ma come at you with just my life. 291 00:14:15,815 --> 00:14:17,567 Maybe one day you'll get tired, I don't know. 292 00:14:17,651 --> 00:14:19,194 -But you not gonna break me down. -Yeah. 293 00:14:19,277 --> 00:14:20,946 I bet you get worn out before I do. 294 00:14:21,029 --> 00:14:22,030 So… 295 00:14:22,113 --> 00:14:23,156 That is true. 296 00:14:26,952 --> 00:14:28,245 You got a stormy night. 297 00:14:28,328 --> 00:14:29,537 Look at her stormy night. 298 00:14:30,538 --> 00:14:31,539 You're so tidy. 299 00:14:40,882 --> 00:14:43,260 Oh, my God. That's some sizzle. 300 00:14:44,678 --> 00:14:46,263 You're getting a facial. 301 00:14:46,346 --> 00:14:48,098 This is truly unbelievable. 302 00:14:48,181 --> 00:14:50,517 Humor can be a powerful antidote, 303 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,520 even when it comes to taking on things like prejudice. 304 00:14:53,603 --> 00:14:56,940 Negin, you're an activist and a comic. Give us a little of your background. 305 00:14:57,023 --> 00:14:58,692 I wanted to be in public service 306 00:14:58,775 --> 00:15:00,986 and I wanted to make a difference and all of that stuff. 307 00:15:01,069 --> 00:15:03,989 But, the pull of comedy was just too strong. 308 00:15:04,489 --> 00:15:08,410 So at a certain point I went, you know, into being full-time, 309 00:15:08,493 --> 00:15:09,661 in comedy. 310 00:15:09,744 --> 00:15:11,162 And what did your parents say? 311 00:15:11,246 --> 00:15:13,957 I mean, my immigrant parents loved it. 312 00:15:15,250 --> 00:15:16,293 I remember what-- 313 00:15:16,376 --> 00:15:18,295 Feeling that my parents were disappointed in me 314 00:15:18,378 --> 00:15:21,423 because I overheard my mom saying to one of her friends, 315 00:15:21,506 --> 00:15:23,300 "I'm disappointed in Negin." You know? 316 00:15:24,885 --> 00:15:28,096 It's my kind of comedy that keeps ISIS going? 317 00:15:28,179 --> 00:15:31,182 "ISIS is training right now to kill your whole family 318 00:15:31,266 --> 00:15:32,809 and shit down your neck hole 319 00:15:32,893 --> 00:15:36,271 after they remove your head with a dull blade." 320 00:15:36,354 --> 00:15:37,772 Can I invite you to a stand-up comedy show? 321 00:15:37,856 --> 00:15:39,024 It's called The Muslims are Coming. 322 00:15:39,608 --> 00:15:42,694 There's a bunch of Muslims on stage but they're hilarious. 323 00:15:42,777 --> 00:15:47,490 The scariest death threat I've ever gotten was actually to my parents' home phone. 324 00:15:47,574 --> 00:15:50,160 And it went, you know, "We're gonna kill your daughter. 325 00:15:50,243 --> 00:15:53,622 We're gonna kill all of you if she keeps doing what she's doing." 326 00:15:53,705 --> 00:15:56,791 Which, to-- Again, remind you, is telling jokes. 327 00:15:57,751 --> 00:16:01,171 So, one of the films I made called The Muslims are Coming, 328 00:16:01,254 --> 00:16:03,465 which, you know, some people thought was like a-- 329 00:16:03,548 --> 00:16:06,968 like a warning lecture on the coming Muslim apocalypse or whatever. 330 00:16:07,719 --> 00:16:10,680 We rounded up a bunch of Muslim-American comedians, 331 00:16:10,764 --> 00:16:14,559 in a nonviolent way, and we went on the road 332 00:16:14,643 --> 00:16:17,604 to Alabama and Mississippi, and Arizona. 333 00:16:17,687 --> 00:16:18,855 -Isn't Arizona, like-- -Right. Yeah. 334 00:16:18,939 --> 00:16:21,066 Like, places where they love the Muzzies. 335 00:16:21,149 --> 00:16:23,109 We would set up these, like, "Ask a Muslim" booth 336 00:16:23,193 --> 00:16:24,319 in the middle of town squares, 337 00:16:24,402 --> 00:16:26,947 but we would also, like, ply people with, like, candy and stuff. 338 00:16:27,030 --> 00:16:29,866 A live Muslim is here to answer your questions. 339 00:16:29,950 --> 00:16:32,077 The interesting thing is, when you approach people, 340 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,788 -I think, with love, and you-- -And humor. 341 00:16:34,871 --> 00:16:38,375 And humor, and make it a comfortable space, 342 00:16:38,458 --> 00:16:40,126 people are more likely to ask you questions. 343 00:16:40,210 --> 00:16:43,380 -So, I would get questions like… -"Well, how do you feel about 9/11?" 344 00:16:43,463 --> 00:16:47,300 Which, for some people, may be just a rage-inducing question. 345 00:16:47,384 --> 00:16:49,344 Right? But for me, I was like, 346 00:16:49,427 --> 00:16:53,765 "You know what? I'm in, you know, deep Georgia or wherever. 347 00:16:53,848 --> 00:16:56,601 And they might have never met a Muslim." You know? 348 00:16:56,685 --> 00:16:58,937 -Yeah, or they don't know they have. -Or they don't know they have. 349 00:16:59,020 --> 00:17:00,313 Because we walk among you. 350 00:17:00,397 --> 00:17:03,275 And they haven't heard a Muslim denounce 9/11. 351 00:17:03,358 --> 00:17:04,359 I'll do it. 352 00:17:04,441 --> 00:17:08,862 Let me bring them into my world, and then maybe we'll have a laugh. 353 00:17:08,947 --> 00:17:13,952 For someone who has a small chuckle, and then in some other situation 354 00:17:14,035 --> 00:17:16,036 another chuckle, and another chuckle and another chuckle. 355 00:17:16,121 --> 00:17:20,667 Those chuckles add up to something like social change. 356 00:17:20,750 --> 00:17:21,584 Right. 357 00:17:21,668 --> 00:17:26,506 And I always respond with, like, "I'm sorry you hate me. 358 00:17:26,590 --> 00:17:28,550 I hope you find a comedian that you like." 359 00:17:28,633 --> 00:17:32,137 You know, "Have a great day. Smiley-face emoji." 360 00:17:32,220 --> 00:17:34,431 When they go low, we go emoji. 361 00:17:36,016 --> 00:17:36,975 ContraPoints. 362 00:17:37,058 --> 00:17:41,855 The Internet show where we talk about sadness, fascism, sexual deviation, cults. 363 00:17:44,983 --> 00:17:46,318 "Can everyone finally agree 364 00:17:46,401 --> 00:17:49,195 that ContraPoints belongs directly inside a garbage can." 365 00:17:49,279 --> 00:17:50,655 Here I am, sweetie. 366 00:17:50,739 --> 00:17:53,450 "Natalie Wynn is such a terrible person, my God." 367 00:17:53,533 --> 00:17:56,953 "I hate ContraPoints so goddamn much, it's unbelievable." 368 00:17:57,037 --> 00:17:59,372 "ContraPoints, more like Disappoints." 369 00:17:59,956 --> 00:18:01,041 Now that's a good one. 370 00:18:01,124 --> 00:18:02,834 If you're gonna drag me, at least be funny. 371 00:18:02,918 --> 00:18:06,171 I'm really looking forward to meeting Natalie, AKA ContraPoints. 372 00:18:06,796 --> 00:18:08,548 The Internet can be a real breeding ground 373 00:18:08,632 --> 00:18:10,133 for hate and disinformation, 374 00:18:10,675 --> 00:18:14,137 but with the help of her boundless empathy and her master's in philosophy, 375 00:18:14,721 --> 00:18:17,766 she's helped people question their extremist beliefs. 376 00:18:17,849 --> 00:18:19,142 Who do you people think I am? 377 00:18:19,226 --> 00:18:21,186 I'm a socially conscious YouTube entertainer, 378 00:18:21,269 --> 00:18:23,146 not transsexual Gandhi. 379 00:18:23,230 --> 00:18:28,235 She uses costumes and accents and theatrical props 380 00:18:28,318 --> 00:18:29,778 to make those points. 381 00:18:29,861 --> 00:18:31,780 -And I think that is important… -Yeah. 382 00:18:31,863 --> 00:18:35,033 …because not everybody responds to a logical argument. 383 00:18:35,116 --> 00:18:38,036 You sometimes have to try different approaches 384 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,705 to open people's eyes, ears, and hearts. 385 00:18:41,331 --> 00:18:43,333 -Hello, my dear. -Hello. Hi. 386 00:18:43,416 --> 00:18:44,834 -Thank you for having us. -Can I give you a hug? 387 00:18:44,918 --> 00:18:47,254 -Of course. Yes. Okay. -Okay. I'm more of a hugger. 388 00:18:47,337 --> 00:18:49,214 How long have you lived in this fabulous house? 389 00:18:49,297 --> 00:18:50,131 Since September. 390 00:18:50,215 --> 00:18:52,175 The second I walked in and I saw this staircase, I was like, 391 00:18:52,467 --> 00:18:54,177 "I want a camera facing that." 392 00:18:54,261 --> 00:18:58,098 I'm looking around. I'm seeing fabulous clothes and hats. 393 00:18:58,181 --> 00:19:00,850 You have to grab people's attention and then hold it. 394 00:19:00,934 --> 00:19:04,312 Especially on YouTube, you're competing with cat videos and-- 395 00:19:04,396 --> 00:19:06,898 -My mother does love a good cat video. -Well, who doesn't. 396 00:19:14,614 --> 00:19:17,617 Do you have people reach out to you with specific requests 397 00:19:17,701 --> 00:19:19,578 because they think it might be particularly impactful 398 00:19:19,661 --> 00:19:20,745 to someone in their lives? 399 00:19:20,829 --> 00:19:24,874 People often say, "my brother" or "my mother," 400 00:19:24,958 --> 00:19:29,045 "I'm losing them to Alex Jones, I'm losing them to QAnon." 401 00:19:29,129 --> 00:19:31,131 Fifteen percent of Americans now believe QAnon. 402 00:19:31,214 --> 00:19:33,508 I really feel for those people. It's like the Civil War. 403 00:19:33,592 --> 00:19:36,011 Like, families are being torn apart by this stuff. 404 00:19:36,094 --> 00:19:37,637 So what do we do about hate? 405 00:19:37,721 --> 00:19:44,686 Is it possible to persuade people out of their very angry mode of thinking? 406 00:19:45,312 --> 00:19:47,689 I think it is possible. I think that, 407 00:19:48,648 --> 00:19:53,695 it just can't be done by straightforward, rational argument. 408 00:19:53,778 --> 00:19:56,364 Suppose someone has a hatred towards a marginalized group. 409 00:19:56,448 --> 00:19:57,782 That's abstract. 410 00:19:57,866 --> 00:19:59,534 But I meet them in person, 411 00:19:59,618 --> 00:20:02,245 they're perfectly pleasant and polite and introspectful. 412 00:20:02,829 --> 00:20:04,789 It's like there's this cognitive dissonance 413 00:20:04,873 --> 00:20:06,750 of what a transgender person is. 414 00:20:06,833 --> 00:20:09,085 And then there's you sitting in front of them, 415 00:20:09,169 --> 00:20:10,837 and it's like, "Well, you're a person. 416 00:20:10,921 --> 00:20:13,715 I can interact with you perfectly ordin-- In an ordinary way." 417 00:20:14,382 --> 00:20:16,343 The way you watch a YouTube video, 418 00:20:16,426 --> 00:20:18,845 you're watching this person talk to the camera. 419 00:20:18,929 --> 00:20:21,056 It's like they're talking directly to you. 420 00:20:21,139 --> 00:20:22,515 -It feels very intimate. -It does. 421 00:20:22,599 --> 00:20:25,060 People call it "parasocial relationships." 422 00:20:25,143 --> 00:20:27,229 People feel like they kind of know you, 423 00:20:27,312 --> 00:20:29,856 and so you can use your connection with someone 424 00:20:29,940 --> 00:20:32,025 to try to kind of open them up. 425 00:20:32,108 --> 00:20:33,818 That's a really smart strategy. 426 00:20:33,902 --> 00:20:35,987 -Hard to do, but really smart. -It's hard to do, yeah. 427 00:20:36,071 --> 00:20:37,239 The promise of "canceling" 428 00:20:37,322 --> 00:20:40,325 was that it was going to give power back to people who had none 429 00:20:40,408 --> 00:20:42,869 and bring justice to prominent abusers. 430 00:20:42,953 --> 00:20:46,039 It's in a way the 21st century version of the guillotine. 431 00:20:46,122 --> 00:20:47,791 But also like the guillotine, 432 00:20:47,874 --> 00:20:50,544 it can become a sadistic entertainment spectacle. 433 00:20:50,627 --> 00:20:54,464 You made a really important point when you said it's moved from, 434 00:20:54,548 --> 00:20:58,677 "Okay, somebody did, you know, a stupid, maybe wrong thing" 435 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:03,974 to becoming "a stupid, wrong person who has been cast out." 436 00:21:04,057 --> 00:21:05,725 Although accountability is a good thing. 437 00:21:05,809 --> 00:21:07,519 Accountability is fine, 438 00:21:07,602 --> 00:21:11,439 but canceling people for who they are is not. 439 00:21:11,523 --> 00:21:13,858 Or assuming that what they've done is all of who they are. 440 00:21:13,942 --> 00:21:15,026 That's right. 441 00:21:15,110 --> 00:21:17,737 That someone is the totality of any one action. 442 00:21:17,821 --> 00:21:20,282 And yet, I do think accountability is really important. 443 00:21:20,365 --> 00:21:24,452 Say we want accountability, but what does that mean? 444 00:21:24,536 --> 00:21:26,162 In the absence of due process, 445 00:21:26,246 --> 00:21:29,207 what you get is a mob dressed as retribution, 446 00:21:29,291 --> 00:21:31,042 as shunning, shaming, harassment. 447 00:21:31,126 --> 00:21:33,962 I see it as doing that damage at the moment. 448 00:21:34,629 --> 00:21:38,258 People seem to connect with this kind of empathetic tone 449 00:21:38,341 --> 00:21:39,759 that my videos have. 450 00:21:39,843 --> 00:21:41,094 They don't feel judged. 451 00:21:41,177 --> 00:21:42,888 I never want to make people feel like, 452 00:21:42,971 --> 00:21:45,056 "You're a terrible person. Why are you like this?" 453 00:21:45,140 --> 00:21:47,767 Because, why? What good is that gonna do? 454 00:21:51,813 --> 00:21:54,858 Using your platform to call out hate can take guts. 455 00:21:54,941 --> 00:21:58,403 It can mean opening yourself up to some pretty harsh criticism. 456 00:21:58,486 --> 00:22:00,989 One of the funny things about standing up to hate, 457 00:22:01,072 --> 00:22:03,617 is that when you do in a public forum, 458 00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:06,953 you often get more attention than you ever would have expected. 459 00:22:07,037 --> 00:22:08,955 Jemele, you wouldn't know anything about that? 460 00:22:09,039 --> 00:22:10,832 Like when you stand up to hate in a public forum 461 00:22:10,916 --> 00:22:12,584 -and then you get more attention? -Mostly for me, 462 00:22:12,667 --> 00:22:14,502 I don't know about you, I get nothing but love letters. 463 00:22:14,586 --> 00:22:17,380 We know what a good time you've been having the last couple of years. 464 00:22:17,464 --> 00:22:19,633 Jemele Hill is someone I've admired for a long time 465 00:22:19,716 --> 00:22:21,259 as a sports journalist. 466 00:22:21,343 --> 00:22:26,431 For a while, she was most known as a reporter who, like, 467 00:22:26,514 --> 00:22:27,724 just was telling the truth. 468 00:22:27,807 --> 00:22:31,228 And I have this high-profile job and in a Twitter exchange 469 00:22:31,311 --> 00:22:34,731 with somebody who is trying to excuse Donald Trump's behavior. 470 00:22:34,814 --> 00:22:36,733 And this is a few weeks after Charlottesville, 471 00:22:36,816 --> 00:22:40,570 so we all know what the-- his response was to that. And-- 472 00:22:40,946 --> 00:22:43,406 -"Very fine people." -"Very fine people on both sides." 473 00:22:43,490 --> 00:22:47,077 Jemele Hill wrote on Twitter that "Donald Trump is a white supremacist 474 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,330 who has largely surrounded himself with other white supremacists." 475 00:22:50,413 --> 00:22:53,667 I didn't think that I was saying anything remotely controversial. 476 00:22:53,750 --> 00:22:57,379 I just thought that everybody sort of knew that and, next thing I know, 477 00:22:57,462 --> 00:22:59,422 the White House is saying I should be fired. 478 00:22:59,506 --> 00:23:01,466 You know, being a Black woman in a high-profile position, 479 00:23:01,550 --> 00:23:05,512 all of that was the perfect cocktail for complete nonsense. 480 00:23:05,595 --> 00:23:07,055 And so a lot of death threats. 481 00:23:07,138 --> 00:23:10,475 Even having to go through all of that, I'm glad that it happened. 482 00:23:10,559 --> 00:23:14,896 And, now it puts me in a better position 483 00:23:14,980 --> 00:23:18,400 to be an even stronger voice and has made me even more, 484 00:23:18,817 --> 00:23:21,236 unapologetic than I've ever been. 485 00:23:21,319 --> 00:23:25,323 Particularly since I'm not at ESPN anymore, my approach is different. 486 00:23:25,407 --> 00:23:28,410 Now, I'm flaming cats. Because, like, at the-- 487 00:23:28,493 --> 00:23:31,746 You don't get to disrupt my day with your level of ignorance. 488 00:23:31,830 --> 00:23:33,582 And I don't have time for everybody. 489 00:23:33,665 --> 00:23:35,917 But sometimes when I got time, I got time. 490 00:23:36,001 --> 00:23:37,961 And I always joke that I was like, 491 00:23:38,044 --> 00:23:40,547 the worst time you can catch me on social media 492 00:23:40,630 --> 00:23:43,592 is when I have to get my hair braided, 'cause it's, like, a six-hour process. 493 00:23:43,675 --> 00:23:45,886 So I'm just sitting in the chair like, "Say something." 494 00:23:46,469 --> 00:23:48,096 -I'm ready! -You hear? I'm ready. 495 00:23:48,179 --> 00:23:49,306 You gonna get it today." 496 00:23:50,098 --> 00:23:51,766 "Jemele Hill got fired from ESPN 497 00:23:51,850 --> 00:23:54,853 and won't leave us alone with those ugly-ass micro braids." 498 00:23:54,936 --> 00:23:58,231 By the way, they're called individuals. Get your terminology right. 499 00:23:58,315 --> 00:24:02,736 "Cancel Jemele. She is such a race-baiter and knows nothing about sports." 500 00:24:02,819 --> 00:24:04,321 Take exception to the sports part. 501 00:24:04,404 --> 00:24:07,782 "Thank God I unfollowed Jemele Hill for days like today." 502 00:24:07,866 --> 00:24:09,618 Then how did you know what I said? 503 00:24:11,077 --> 00:24:13,455 I've been so accustomed to the hate. 504 00:24:13,538 --> 00:24:17,042 Like, I've been getting hate letters since I was in college. 505 00:24:17,125 --> 00:24:19,711 The first time I ever got called a nigger was when I went to Michigan State. 506 00:24:20,295 --> 00:24:22,672 Right? And unfortunately, because I haven't dealt with it 507 00:24:22,756 --> 00:24:26,468 in some fashion for so long, I'm battle-tested now. 508 00:24:26,551 --> 00:24:29,888 And I hate telling younger women that, you know, 509 00:24:29,971 --> 00:24:31,765 you just have to kind of get used to it. 510 00:24:31,848 --> 00:24:33,266 And I started to amend that message, 511 00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:34,726 'cause I don't want them to get used to it. 512 00:24:34,809 --> 00:24:37,312 You know, I made that mistake by doing that. 513 00:24:37,395 --> 00:24:41,733 But it can't just be the people most victimized by the oppression 514 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,152 put in a position to have to solve it. 515 00:24:44,236 --> 00:24:47,822 I'ma need you to give me some help. All right? Everybody has to do their part. 516 00:24:47,906 --> 00:24:49,658 That's 100% right. 517 00:24:49,741 --> 00:24:53,453 Just because we choose to bring awareness and attention 518 00:24:53,536 --> 00:24:57,374 to what are very real conditions for people li-- that look like us, 519 00:24:57,457 --> 00:25:01,962 because we want to fight so that this country actually lives up 520 00:25:02,045 --> 00:25:04,631 to all the pretty words that they put in the brochure. 521 00:25:04,714 --> 00:25:08,093 We want America to be its best self. 522 00:25:08,176 --> 00:25:11,930 And the fact that there are people who would rather, 523 00:25:12,013 --> 00:25:16,935 in some cases, kill us than see that happen, is very sad. 524 00:25:17,018 --> 00:25:21,898 But it's also very inspiring in that I think it keeps me on mission. 525 00:25:27,487 --> 00:25:29,990 -Oh, my gosh. Look at this. -Isn't it? 526 00:25:30,073 --> 00:25:32,325 Okay, now, Suzie, you gave us a lot in here. 527 00:25:32,409 --> 00:25:33,910 I love this color. My-- 528 00:25:33,994 --> 00:25:35,829 One of my grandsons' favorite color is purple. 529 00:25:35,912 --> 00:25:37,789 It was Heather's favorite color too. 530 00:25:40,083 --> 00:25:41,668 Okay, Susan. 531 00:25:42,168 --> 00:25:44,588 Baby girl, I don't care if you get it or not. 532 00:25:45,088 --> 00:25:49,801 The hardest thing that I can imagine anybody going through is losing a child. 533 00:25:50,385 --> 00:25:56,641 These two women, Susan and Dawn, lost their children to hate crimes, 534 00:25:56,725 --> 00:26:03,023 to deliberate, intentional murder in both cases. 535 00:26:03,106 --> 00:26:07,527 In Dawn's case, her son was a victim of someone who just hated him 536 00:26:07,611 --> 00:26:09,195 because of the color of his skin. 537 00:26:09,279 --> 00:26:12,490 You just do a few rows and see what you think you can do. 538 00:26:12,574 --> 00:26:17,621 Susan's daughter was murdered when a car aimed at a crowd 539 00:26:17,704 --> 00:26:21,041 that was protesting neo-Nazis in Charlottesville. 540 00:26:21,124 --> 00:26:22,626 Through that loop. All right. 541 00:26:22,709 --> 00:26:26,379 They each have tried to speak out against hate 542 00:26:26,463 --> 00:26:28,173 in every way that they can. 543 00:26:28,256 --> 00:26:32,010 And they really have proven how love is stronger than hate, 544 00:26:32,093 --> 00:26:33,970 even in the worst of circumstances. 545 00:26:34,554 --> 00:26:36,223 You look like you're struggling too. 546 00:26:36,306 --> 00:26:38,850 Well, I am struggling. This is hard, girl. 547 00:26:38,934 --> 00:26:39,935 It is! 548 00:26:40,018 --> 00:26:42,646 Honestly, ladies, there's no way you're gonna learn to crochet this fast. 549 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:50,654 Is crocheting something that you can use to kind of get away from what's going on-- 550 00:26:50,737 --> 00:26:52,906 It lowers blood pressure. So, let me tell you. 551 00:26:52,989 --> 00:26:56,618 When Heather was murdered, that went off like a bomb in my brain. 552 00:26:56,701 --> 00:27:00,830 And I had always been a voracious reader, a voracious knitter and crocheter. 553 00:27:00,914 --> 00:27:03,208 And all of that went away until 2020. 554 00:27:03,291 --> 00:27:05,627 I can't even frankly imagine 555 00:27:05,710 --> 00:27:09,631 how the two of you picked yourselves up after what happened. 556 00:27:09,714 --> 00:27:14,636 That young man you were so proud of, everything you hoped a son could be. 557 00:27:15,387 --> 00:27:21,351 And then that was all taken from you by a hateful, terrible act of violence. 558 00:27:22,018 --> 00:27:23,728 -For no reason. -No reason. 559 00:27:23,812 --> 00:27:26,147 -And the same thing with your Heather. -For Heather. 560 00:27:26,231 --> 00:27:30,694 Well, with Heather, there was at least an event afoot that precipitated it. 561 00:27:31,403 --> 00:27:33,405 He said he didn't like the looks of the crowd 562 00:27:33,488 --> 00:27:35,323 -or what they supported, and-- -He said that? 563 00:27:35,407 --> 00:27:39,661 He had to plead guilty to Heather's murder in order to avoid the death penalty. 564 00:27:39,744 --> 00:27:41,746 -And you were in the court that day? -Oh, yeah. 565 00:27:41,830 --> 00:27:43,582 I never missed a single day of court. 566 00:27:43,665 --> 00:27:46,376 Did you look at him? Did you ever get him to look at you? 567 00:27:46,459 --> 00:27:51,673 There were a number of neo-Nazis and alt-right people in the crowd, 568 00:27:51,756 --> 00:27:53,508 and they got my full glare. 569 00:27:53,925 --> 00:27:56,428 -Did any of them say anything to you? -They didn't dare. 570 00:27:57,429 --> 00:28:01,141 The two of you became resolved to speak out, 571 00:28:01,224 --> 00:28:05,687 resist this hatred that took both of your children's lives. 572 00:28:05,770 --> 00:28:09,983 How would you explain how you were able to do that, Susan? 573 00:28:10,066 --> 00:28:13,570 There were days I didn't. There were long days I sat home and cried. 574 00:28:13,653 --> 00:28:17,282 But people would say, "Can you come talk to us?" 575 00:28:17,365 --> 00:28:20,744 And I'd say, "Okay." 576 00:28:21,494 --> 00:28:24,289 And that kind of pulled me along for a while. 577 00:28:24,372 --> 00:28:27,292 But in the beginning I was talking about Heather, because, you know, 578 00:28:27,375 --> 00:28:29,961 when you lose a loved one, you wanna talk about them. 579 00:28:30,045 --> 00:28:31,129 -Right. -Yep. 580 00:28:31,213 --> 00:28:33,298 Eventually, I began to see 581 00:28:33,381 --> 00:28:36,134 that was putting a white face on all of August 12th. 582 00:28:36,218 --> 00:28:41,181 And so I moved away from that to focus on the reasons why Heather died, 583 00:28:41,264 --> 00:28:43,808 which is in support of Black Lives Matter, 584 00:28:43,892 --> 00:28:48,897 in support of Black rights, in support of rights for all. 585 00:28:49,689 --> 00:28:52,400 Heather's method of dealing with people, and she actually did this 586 00:28:52,484 --> 00:28:56,112 with a young woman on the day she was killed, is to say, 587 00:28:56,196 --> 00:28:58,156 "Well, talk to me about why you feel this way," 588 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,326 and then try to discuss it with them gently. 589 00:29:01,409 --> 00:29:04,871 And so, when haters have come at me on Facebook, I would say to them, 590 00:29:04,955 --> 00:29:08,708 "Well, why do you feel this way? What are you basing this on?" 591 00:29:08,792 --> 00:29:10,710 And occasionally, I would get through. 592 00:29:10,794 --> 00:29:14,714 A lot of times I wouldn't, but I have to believe I'm planting seeds. 593 00:29:14,798 --> 00:29:19,719 Do you personally know people who have rejected a life of hate? 594 00:29:19,803 --> 00:29:23,348 I've had two of the young men who were in the torch rally 595 00:29:23,431 --> 00:29:25,392 call me to ask my forgiveness. 596 00:29:25,976 --> 00:29:29,187 And I said, "It's not me that you need to ask." 597 00:29:29,271 --> 00:29:32,065 I said, "You need to go talk to the communities that you've harmed, 598 00:29:32,148 --> 00:29:35,318 and you need to work out your restitution in those communities." 599 00:29:35,402 --> 00:29:38,113 And they were not so thrilled with that. 600 00:29:38,196 --> 00:29:41,491 They wanted my absolution so they could just go on about their business. 601 00:29:41,575 --> 00:29:44,661 And I said, "It's not that easy. You gotta do some work here." 602 00:29:46,621 --> 00:29:50,292 I've been handed this platform that I didn't ask for, I didn't deserve. 603 00:29:50,375 --> 00:29:51,960 -Wish you didn't have. -Right. 604 00:29:52,043 --> 00:29:56,172 But if I have it, I'm gonna make use of it to bring other people in, other issues in. 605 00:29:57,215 --> 00:29:59,676 Susan is my hero. She said, 606 00:29:59,759 --> 00:30:02,137 "Every chance I get, I'm gonna make sure 607 00:30:02,888 --> 00:30:04,890 that the world knows about Richard as well." 608 00:30:06,016 --> 00:30:07,017 Isn't that beautiful? 609 00:30:07,100 --> 00:30:09,728 That's a true mom-spirit. I mean, really, that is. 610 00:30:09,811 --> 00:30:12,272 -How could I not? -Hundred percent. 611 00:30:12,355 --> 00:30:17,986 My son committed the crime of saying no to a person that didn't look like him. 612 00:30:18,069 --> 00:30:20,280 It's 'cause the killer told him what? To get out of the way? 613 00:30:20,363 --> 00:30:23,491 "Step left." And my son said, "No." 614 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,455 And then he took the knife and plunged it into his chest. 615 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:30,290 And he died at the scene. 616 00:30:30,373 --> 00:30:32,542 Has he been tried and convicted, and-- 617 00:30:32,626 --> 00:30:35,670 -Finally. -Was it a state or federal trial? 618 00:30:35,754 --> 00:30:37,631 It didn't make it to the feds. 619 00:30:37,714 --> 00:30:40,342 And when the hate crime was thrown out, 620 00:30:40,425 --> 00:30:45,931 there were members from the other side that actually applauded and high-fived. 621 00:30:46,014 --> 00:30:49,017 I just do not understand how that happened in that case. 622 00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:52,520 Don't let another mother 623 00:30:52,604 --> 00:30:57,025 feel the pain that I feel daily. 624 00:30:57,108 --> 00:31:00,070 A temporary hate crime law is now in effect in our state, 625 00:31:00,153 --> 00:31:03,031 named after Lieutenant Richard Collins III. 626 00:31:03,114 --> 00:31:07,827 I really applaud you for going forward and getting the law changed in Maryland 627 00:31:07,911 --> 00:31:13,333 so that there could never be any question whatsoever about what a hate crime is. 628 00:31:13,416 --> 00:31:18,880 Absolutely. No one gets to dictate who is not an American. 629 00:31:19,673 --> 00:31:26,012 We did everything that "society" says that you're supposed to do 630 00:31:26,096 --> 00:31:27,347 to raise your children. 631 00:31:27,931 --> 00:31:30,517 And then, someone say to me, 632 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,937 "You're not good enough because you have melanin, 633 00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:36,022 that you should not stand there." 634 00:31:36,106 --> 00:31:37,232 How dare you? 635 00:31:38,233 --> 00:31:41,027 Well, I'm just so grateful the two of you are doing this work. 636 00:31:41,111 --> 00:31:44,322 It's a choice every day. You do not have to talk to anybody. 637 00:31:44,406 --> 00:31:47,075 You don't have to keep working the way you are. 638 00:31:47,158 --> 00:31:48,994 And the fact that you are gives me hope. 639 00:31:49,077 --> 00:31:50,245 It gives me a lot of hope. 640 00:31:50,328 --> 00:31:52,080 Susan, do you say we have a choice? 641 00:31:52,163 --> 00:31:53,748 What else would I do right now? 642 00:31:53,832 --> 00:31:57,377 We're moms, and we didn't ask for this. 643 00:31:57,919 --> 00:32:01,798 But now that it has come to my door, 644 00:32:02,465 --> 00:32:05,635 we have to buck up and do what we have to do. 645 00:32:05,719 --> 00:32:07,888 When I speak to Susan, she gets me. 646 00:32:08,471 --> 00:32:09,764 And I love her for it. 647 00:32:15,937 --> 00:32:18,982 -I got one. -Yes, baby! I knew you could. 648 00:32:19,065 --> 00:32:21,651 I knew you could. Do it again. 649 00:32:23,570 --> 00:32:27,532 The last time I saw her, we talked way longer than usual. 650 00:32:28,283 --> 00:32:31,661 And we went out to the car, and we hugged and we hugged. 651 00:32:31,745 --> 00:32:34,331 And we kissed and we kissed. And we laughed, and I said, 652 00:32:34,414 --> 00:32:36,416 "It's, like, not like I'll never see you again." 653 00:32:37,334 --> 00:32:39,920 -And I never saw her again. -Oh, my gosh. 654 00:32:42,088 --> 00:32:44,507 The last time I… spoke with Richard, 655 00:32:45,300 --> 00:32:49,471 he said to me that he was going out to celebrate, 'cause he was-- 656 00:32:49,554 --> 00:32:52,682 He made it. He said, "Mom, I made it." 657 00:32:52,766 --> 00:32:56,061 "I'm an officer, and the world is going to know my name." 658 00:32:57,020 --> 00:33:01,233 I don't remember if I ever noticed this song before she died or not, but-- 659 00:33:01,816 --> 00:33:03,151 What was the song? 660 00:33:03,235 --> 00:33:07,280 It's about never taking for granted the last time you see somebody. 661 00:33:30,011 --> 00:33:31,012 I did it! 662 00:33:31,096 --> 00:33:34,099 You did. I love you. Have fun with Gene. 663 00:33:35,016 --> 00:33:36,810 -I love you. Bye! -I love you too. 664 00:33:36,893 --> 00:33:42,190 Shannon, for decades, has dedicated herself to helping people 665 00:33:42,274 --> 00:33:45,986 who are part of neo-Nazi, white-supremacist organizations, 666 00:33:46,069 --> 00:33:50,949 escape from them and then do the really hard work of atonement. 667 00:33:51,032 --> 00:33:52,784 So, just give me a call. 668 00:33:52,867 --> 00:33:55,287 I do what I do because I spent, 669 00:33:55,370 --> 00:33:59,082 from the time I was 15 until the time I was almost 20, 670 00:33:59,165 --> 00:34:03,295 inside the violent white-supremacy movement. 671 00:34:04,462 --> 00:34:09,009 My favorite thing to do is to work on building prevention 672 00:34:09,092 --> 00:34:12,721 so that people never become Nazis in the first place. 673 00:34:15,307 --> 00:34:16,724 I mean, totally. 674 00:34:16,807 --> 00:34:21,061 Samantha is a former member of a white power group. 675 00:34:21,146 --> 00:34:25,817 She and I connected, and she's now, you know, my friend, 676 00:34:25,901 --> 00:34:28,278 somebody that I mentor. 677 00:34:28,361 --> 00:34:30,238 And I feel very honored to be somebody 678 00:34:30,322 --> 00:34:34,367 that she trusts to talk through and share those things with. 679 00:34:38,788 --> 00:34:41,791 Wow. Beautiful. 680 00:34:43,668 --> 00:34:45,670 So, we've seen herons. What else is-- What other birds? 681 00:34:45,753 --> 00:34:47,130 Well, there's a turtle right there. 682 00:34:47,213 --> 00:34:49,090 Oh, yes. There it is. 683 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,221 Where you used the river to bring people out of white supremacy 684 00:34:54,304 --> 00:34:58,266 and neo-Nazism and the fascist movement, how did that start? 685 00:34:58,350 --> 00:35:01,436 Anyone who has ever tried to quit any bad habit, 686 00:35:01,519 --> 00:35:05,482 you have to have something positive to insert in its place. 687 00:35:06,483 --> 00:35:08,318 And what's frightening about it, especially now, 688 00:35:08,401 --> 00:35:13,698 there's the risk of kids becoming victims, either of the violence or of the ideology. 689 00:35:14,449 --> 00:35:16,493 And it's like, It's insidious. 690 00:35:16,576 --> 00:35:19,329 And a lot of people in there feel so isolated and alone, 691 00:35:19,829 --> 00:35:22,958 that to be with other people, just to be with nature and realize, like, 692 00:35:23,041 --> 00:35:26,002 how you are a part of this bigger thing. 693 00:35:26,753 --> 00:35:28,004 Yeah, it's really important. 694 00:35:32,217 --> 00:35:33,301 Well, cheers. 695 00:35:33,385 --> 00:35:35,845 -To a successful float down the river. -Cheers. 696 00:35:35,929 --> 00:35:37,430 Cheers is right. You're not kidding. 697 00:35:37,514 --> 00:35:39,307 It was so much fun being with you. 698 00:35:39,391 --> 00:35:43,353 Could you tell us a little bit, Sam, about how you ended up 699 00:35:43,436 --> 00:35:46,314 finding yourself enmeshed with Unite the Right? 700 00:35:46,398 --> 00:35:50,277 I was dating someone, and this was right after 701 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,113 I had experienced this trauma. And I just-- 702 00:35:53,196 --> 00:35:56,658 I felt really broken and alone, and I had no self-worth. 703 00:35:56,741 --> 00:35:58,702 And I met this person that-- 704 00:35:59,744 --> 00:36:02,914 I wanted someone to tell me who I was, 'cause I didn't know how to do it myself. 705 00:36:02,998 --> 00:36:05,917 And this other person had fallen into the violent far-right. 706 00:36:06,001 --> 00:36:07,836 He just started filling me with these ideas, 707 00:36:07,919 --> 00:36:10,463 and I was so desperate for his validation and affirmation 708 00:36:10,547 --> 00:36:13,049 that I just kind of followed him wherever he went. 709 00:36:13,133 --> 00:36:17,846 And as we all know, the rhetoric that the far-right uses, is-- 710 00:36:17,929 --> 00:36:20,015 -It's masterful. -They're very good marketers. 711 00:36:20,098 --> 00:36:21,558 And that's what I needed. 712 00:36:21,641 --> 00:36:23,268 I needed someone to tell me I was special. 713 00:36:23,351 --> 00:36:26,479 And I didn't know how to prove that to myself. 714 00:36:26,563 --> 00:36:30,233 And I had an entire movement saying, like, "Just being born was enough. 715 00:36:30,317 --> 00:36:32,360 You don't have to do anything else." 716 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,072 And I wanted that instead of accepting my mediocrity 717 00:36:36,156 --> 00:36:37,741 and trying to improve it. 718 00:36:37,824 --> 00:36:39,409 And when the Unite the Right rally happened 719 00:36:39,492 --> 00:36:41,661 and Heather Heyer was murdered, the veil was lifted. 720 00:36:41,745 --> 00:36:44,039 It just changed everything. It-- 721 00:36:44,122 --> 00:36:45,498 Yeah. Well, you know, 722 00:36:45,582 --> 00:36:50,378 I've had the chance to sit and talk with Heather's mom, Susan. 723 00:36:50,462 --> 00:36:56,176 So, you know, hearing how it totally pierced your thinking, 724 00:36:56,259 --> 00:37:01,973 you can see the kind of connection, as strange and tragic as that is… 725 00:37:02,057 --> 00:37:05,685 -Yeah. Yep. -…can have a real impact, can't it? 726 00:37:05,769 --> 00:37:08,688 You start to look at the slogans and you start to look at the leaders, 727 00:37:08,772 --> 00:37:14,194 and the hypocrisy and the weird, like, disconnect between reality 728 00:37:14,277 --> 00:37:16,238 and what they think an ideal is. 729 00:37:16,863 --> 00:37:19,282 I treated it as it was, an abusive relationship. 730 00:37:19,366 --> 00:37:22,244 I had to sneak out. I had to lie. 731 00:37:22,327 --> 00:37:25,038 There was a point with my mom where I remember calling her, 732 00:37:25,121 --> 00:37:27,499 and I was like, "Mom, I might not talk to you for a couple of months. 733 00:37:27,582 --> 00:37:29,918 I might not talk to you ever again. I just need you to believe 734 00:37:30,001 --> 00:37:31,545 that I'm really trying to do the right thing." 735 00:37:31,628 --> 00:37:33,380 You thought they might actually kill you? 736 00:37:33,463 --> 00:37:35,090 I mean, they told me they would. 737 00:37:35,173 --> 00:37:39,344 It is the most painful thing to look in the mirror 738 00:37:39,427 --> 00:37:41,680 and realize that's who you are. 739 00:37:43,723 --> 00:37:49,396 It is my deepest belief that we live amidst a trauma pandemic. 740 00:37:49,479 --> 00:37:51,982 We live in an incredibly violent nation. 741 00:37:52,065 --> 00:37:57,445 The way that a lot of people are parented. Bullying. Racism. 742 00:37:57,529 --> 00:38:01,449 I knew that I had been sexually assaulted when I was 14 years old 743 00:38:01,533 --> 00:38:04,119 and didn't process that at all. 744 00:38:04,202 --> 00:38:07,205 And one of the things that I came to understand 745 00:38:07,289 --> 00:38:11,167 about the toxic effects of trauma 746 00:38:11,251 --> 00:38:16,339 is that you end up viewing the world as an inherently dangerous 747 00:38:16,423 --> 00:38:17,757 and threatening place. 748 00:38:17,841 --> 00:38:19,342 And so if somebody comes along 749 00:38:19,426 --> 00:38:25,015 and offers you a really easy-to-hold-on-to explanation for why the world 750 00:38:25,098 --> 00:38:28,435 feels dangerous and threatening all of the time to you, 751 00:38:28,518 --> 00:38:31,396 like, that's incredibly seductive. 752 00:38:31,479 --> 00:38:33,523 I'm not trying to change your politics. 753 00:38:33,607 --> 00:38:37,485 I just want to help you move towards thriving 754 00:38:37,569 --> 00:38:43,742 and to not dehumanize other people, not look to utilizing violence 755 00:38:43,825 --> 00:38:46,036 as an expression of the things that are happening 756 00:38:46,119 --> 00:38:48,121 and the fears that you have in your life. 757 00:38:48,204 --> 00:38:49,956 For me, like, that's the goal. 758 00:38:50,832 --> 00:38:52,125 Are you optimistic? 759 00:38:53,126 --> 00:38:57,505 Millions-- Billions of dollars are spent exploiting our fear 760 00:38:57,589 --> 00:38:59,925 and trying to keep us from having hope. 761 00:39:00,008 --> 00:39:01,635 Because a hopeless people 762 00:39:01,718 --> 00:39:04,429 is an easily manipulated and controlled people. 763 00:39:04,512 --> 00:39:07,015 But a hopeful people is a powerful people. 764 00:39:07,098 --> 00:39:08,934 Like, a hopeful people can move mountains 765 00:39:09,017 --> 00:39:11,144 because they believe mountains can be moved. 766 00:39:11,728 --> 00:39:14,856 And in America, we definitely have mountains we need to move. 767 00:39:16,024 --> 00:39:20,153 And so, for me, I feel this obligation to hope. 768 00:39:20,237 --> 00:39:24,115 The amount of, let's say, gutsiness it took for the two of you 769 00:39:24,199 --> 00:39:29,037 to find your way out is truly inspiring. 770 00:39:29,955 --> 00:39:35,335 I really believe that the more people who can meet you, hear from you, 771 00:39:35,418 --> 00:39:38,922 the more positive the impact you both will have. 772 00:39:55,272 --> 00:39:58,733 Like the pair-- the wings spread open. Like a new chapter, sort of-- 773 00:39:58,817 --> 00:40:00,360 I love it. 774 00:40:09,411 --> 00:40:13,832 We can have big conversations and pass laws, but at the end of the day, 775 00:40:13,915 --> 00:40:16,877 it's the personal relationship that really matters, 776 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,756 as to whether somebody trusts enough to make amends and to start a new life. 777 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,550 -I mean, we need both. -We need both. 778 00:40:24,259 --> 00:40:27,095 The women that we've met left me very hopeful. 779 00:40:27,178 --> 00:40:31,474 Women who deal with really hard issues, but who themselves are hopeful 780 00:40:31,558 --> 00:40:34,686 or they wouldn't get up every day, speaking up, standing up, 781 00:40:34,769 --> 00:40:36,605 and making a difference like they are. 782 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,483 -A blast over… -Okay, cool. 783 00:40:40,567 --> 00:40:42,277 Hi, Shannon! 784 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:43,486 Hi! 785 00:40:43,570 --> 00:40:46,156 I just wanna call and tell you how proud I am. 786 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,743 -I'm just really here cheering you on! -All right, are you ready? 787 00:40:51,077 --> 00:40:53,246 Wow! That's beautiful. 788 00:40:53,330 --> 00:40:56,207 I don't have a white power tattoo anymore. 789 00:40:56,291 --> 00:40:58,543 -Yay! -Yeah. It's gone. 790 00:40:58,627 --> 00:40:59,628 I love it. 791 00:40:59,711 --> 00:41:03,298 Sometimes those stories don't break through all the negativity, 792 00:41:03,381 --> 00:41:05,842 the cynicism, the pessimism. 793 00:41:05,926 --> 00:41:08,303 And like a feeling of responsibility to be hopeful. 794 00:41:08,386 --> 00:41:09,679 -Exactly. -Because if they can be hopeful, 795 00:41:09,763 --> 00:41:11,890 how could I be so conceited to not be hopeful? 796 00:41:11,973 --> 00:41:13,058 Exactly.