[Hillary] Okay. Are we getting in these, uh, canoes?
We're going with the flow. Hello.
Hello. Hi, I'm Shannon.
-I am so happy to meet you, Shannon. -Same. [chuckles]
This is so terrific of you guys to do this.
-Sam? -Hi, yes. Nice to meet you.
-It's so great to meet you. -Nice to meet you.
[Shannon Foley Martinez] Ooh. The heron.
[Hillary] Oh, yeah. I see it. Look how well it blends in.
So this is, like, one of your favorite places, huh?
When everything in the world is overwhelming,
my favorite thing to do is just to take people to the river.
Like, just-- Let's go be quiet, be by the water, watch the birds.
Even when there's terrible things happening around you…
-Hundred percent. -…there's still this.
-[chuckles] -I like the pink flower.
[Martinez] Thank you. If you have a big, giant flower on you,
-you have to live up to it. [laughs] -It does sort of make your smile ma--
A different way to fake it till you make it. [laughs]
[Martinez chuckling] Exactly. Exactly.
[Hillary] Wow. This has got quite a current, doesn't it?
Shannon, does your tattoo have a meaning?
Um, yeah. It's a white power tattoo that I haven't gotten covered up.
Well, it's a Celtic cross.
It rose to, like, prominence in the white power scene
because you couldn't have swastikas in Germany.
For a long time, I was just like,
"Well, I don't wanna cover it up 'cause, like, I can't outrun my past."
But then a few years ago, I was at Unite the Right 2.
I had a shirt on that was like, "I'm a former neo-Nazi, ask me questions."
And I was talking with these Black activists
and gave my reasons for why I had, like, not covered it up or whatever.
And, like-- And she was just like, "Yeah, well, like, it can still do harm."
So now, I actually wanna get, like,
a life-size blue heron as my cover-up for it.
-I was just saving up the money still. -Yeah.
I have eight kids. I'm like, food? Tattoos? But it goes to food.
The idea that you have eight kids and you're doing this work.
I mean, holy moly, the definition of "gutsy."
Yeah.
The easiest way for me to explain what I do is that I fight literal Nazis
and help literal Nazis not be Nazis anymore.
I'm going to a hate brunch where gutsy women eat hate for breakfast.
I'ma come at you with my confidence. I'ma come at you with just my life.
So, somebody put together Keurig coffee machines
of different colors with my various pantsuits.
-Okay. -So, there's a very nice sort of orange.
There's a yellow.
There's a kind of burgundy.
Oh, there's another whole row. Look at that.
The red, the green. The pink.
[Chelsea] And the pink one even is open, 'cause your mouth is open.
-So I appreciate the attention to detail. -Yes. Yeah. [laughs]
-I got a big kick out of it. [laughs] -Well.
I've never understood the obsession with my teeth.
"Chelsea Clinton holds a world record for longest two front teeth,
-and it will never be broken." -[laughs]
"Nasty. Ugly."
Hmm. "An ugly Scorpio?"
Or, you know, "I wish that you were dead.
If your mother was really pro-choice, she would've aborted you."
When we are talking with people who are refusing hate,
standing up to hate--
Uh, we've had to do that ourselves,
and sadly, you've seen that most of your life because of,
you know, your-- your own experiences.
I don't really remember a time in my life when I wasn't aware of the hate,
the almost kind of whisper of violence around our family.
What's really impressive about the women in this episode
is how they've rid themselves of their own hatreds or resentments
or biases in order to be liberated from that.
So, we're going to my late mother's favorite restaurant,
Cactus Cantina, with three really gutsy women.
[Chelsea] We have coming to brunch Jemele Hill.
-Hello! Nice to meet you. -So nice to meet you too.
-Are we hugging or-- -Yeah, yeah. We are definitely hugging.
-Okay. -Hundred percent.
[Chelsea] Then Negin Farsad.
-Hi. Nice to meet-- -How are you?
-[Chelsea] And Shannon Watts. -So good to see you.
So, um, I'm going to a hate brunch.
It's kind of where gutsy women basically eat hate for breakfast,
um, along with, uh, chimichangas and margaritas.
So, I used to come to this restaurant a lot
with my grandmother and my boyfriend but now husband.
-I was the designated driver. -[laughing]
There would be even more than one pitcher of margaritas.
-It sounds like they were doing it right. -[Chelsea] Yes. Yes, they were. Thank you.
[laughs]
[Hillary] Well, I can't thank you guys enough for being here.
This is about gutsy, uh, women rejecting hate
and standing up to hate.
And being able to repudiate it and resist it,
but also try to go beyond it.
Each of you have certainly received a bunch of negativity for what you do
and who you are, what you stand for, and how you speak out.
You want me to read these? Half the ones you sent me are so dirty.
"Moms demand what? Dick?"
"God, her voice sucks and is annoying.
My ears are starting to bleed after this shit."
"Jemele Hill is trending.
What stupid racist shit came out of her mouth today?"
"Franzia-obsessed cul-de-sac driveway day drinkers."
That sounds like fun.
You know, Shannon, you literally threw yourself
into the battle against the gun lobby, the NRA in particular.
Can you give us a little bit of that background?
[Watts] I was folding laundry.
I saw breaking news that there have-- was an active shooter
in an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut.
As we learned that 20 children and six educators had been slaughtered,
I became really angry.
Right away, the group of strangers from all across the country,
we'd all met through Facebook.
We realized what we needed to do was go toe-to-toe with the gun lobby.
We had to show up at every gun bill hearing.
And here we are, almost nine years later, and we are winning.
The NRA decided to go after me.
And they started posting graphics about how I was deleting the comments.
And then I disabled my comments,
and they made graphics saying that I had disabled my comments.
This is the NRA. This is how they are spending their time.
And-- And to me, it just shows that I'm living rent-free in their head.
My favorite thing that makes gun extremists so angry
is that our volunteers have started knitting during gun bill hearings.
-These gun bill hearings… -[all laughing]
…they sometimes last from, like, 8:00 in the morning to midnight.
-[Chelsea] Right. -[Watts] Right?
So, the amount of rage it instills in gun extremists.
I mean, the tweets, like, "These bitches knitting."
[laughing]
"We're making scarves, sir." Like, what--
That would be an awesome podcast. "These bitches knitting." [laughs]
There was this underbelly of America that I didn't really know existed.
I started getting emails and calls and letters,
and people driving by my house, wanting me to die.
Or threatening to sexually assault me or to kill or assault my children.
I can remember this one day in Maryland when our Moms Demand Action volunteers
showed up at the state house to support a bill that would disarm domestic abusers,
and a whole group of extremists showed up to oppose them.
We would be surrounded, mostly by men
who were open-carrying semiautomatic rifles.
Mm-hmm. Oh, gosh.
[Watts] And we just started having a conversation.
Like, we just wanna keep guns
out of the hands of the people who might kill women.
People who are convicted abusers.
They couldn't disagree, and they actually left.
You know, they were like, "Okay, who can argue with that?"
They wanted to intimidate us. They wanted to silence us.
We could back down or we could double down.
And so we doubled down.
My mother really was the person who I think, um,
gave me the resilience and the strength to stand up to bullies.
You know, I was the new girl, they picked on me.
My mother would send me out to play every day.
The kids in the neighborhood,
they, you know, just harassed me, knocked me down.
I'd go back in crying, and my mother stood at the door.
She said, "You can't come in. There's no place for cowards.
You gotta go outside
and you gotta figure out how to get along with those kids."
And so out I went. But she was like that throughout my entire life.
You know, just, "Everybody gets knocked down in life.
What matters is whether you get back up."
She said that all the time.
"Life is not about what happens to you,
it's about what you do with what happens to you."
Exactly.
You know, don't let anybody define who you are. You define who you are.
[Chelsea] Someone who very much embodies those words
is Megan Thee Stallion.
[laughs] I'm so happy.
[Chelsea] She lives life on her own terms.
But I will send them. This is, like, the best picture ever.
[Chelsea] Whether she's rapping, or going back to school
to get her bachelor's degree in health administration.
He's like, "Yes, give it to me."
He's like, "Of course you all are surrounding me."
"Look at me, I'm 40e."
She is proving what's possible for women artists when you're not afraid.
♪ I'm a savage Classy, bougie, ratchet, yeah ♪
♪ Sassy, moody, nasty, hey, hey, yeah Acting stupid, what's happening? ♪
[Chelsea] She certainly isn't bowed by the hate that she receives,
and she unfortunately receives a lot of hate.
She uses it to fuel her creativity,
and I think that it perversely gives her a lot of energy.
-Yeah, she's unapologetic. -Unapologetic.
♪ Acting stupid, what's happening? ♪
♪ What's happening? What's happening? What's happening? ♪
[Megan] COVID has definitely been a creative time for me.
I've gotten back into painting. It makes me calm.
And I was trying to please everybody and making everybody else happy.
I was losing myself, I felt like.
So, I just had to remember who I was,
and I had to start spending more time by myself
to just, you know, get back into me
and figure out what makes me happy.
[Chelsea] I loved art as a kid.
I was not good. [chuckles]
My parents would come for a little, like, art show,
and the teachers would invariably say something like,
"We really appreciate Chelsea. She keeps her work station very clean."
-[Hillary laughs] -Yes. "She's just so tidy."
Or they're like, "She is very punctual."
-"One thing about her, she's on time." -"She's on time."
-Kay. All right. [laughs] -[Chelsea] Yeah.
[Hillary] Chelsea follows rap music. She has ever since she was a little girl.
But I kind of came to awareness of you with, uh, Cardi B, "WAP".
[Megan] I've always wanted to do a song with Cardi.
As soon as she sent me the song, I sent it back to her, like, the next day.
And it was just so exciting.
'Cause the men, they seem so confident in what they're saying.
And they don't have no problem with talking about their sexuality
and how they're gonna have sex with you.
So I was, like, "Well… [scoffs, chuckles]
I can do that. And it's gonna sound fire coming from a woman."
It's great to see women be so kind of fierce.
That is my life's mission… [chuckles]
…to make sure that I'm always unapologetically me.
Like, no matter what anybody says or how they act towards me,
I don't ever want it to shift what I think about myself.
If you knew me, you knew I was always like this.
And it's just that, now it's, like, a bunch of people watching.
Were you surprised, though, by the conservative backlash to you?
I was surprised that in this day in time,
that when you have so many options of so many things to look at and listen to,
that the first thing that you wanna critique and talk about
is something you don't like.
[Hillary] That's like your one where you've got the--
the guy who looks like he's some kind of elected official…
-[Megan] Uh-huh. -[Hillary] …watching on his, uh, computer.
-Yep. -[Hillary] Yeah.
-["Body" by Megan Thee Stallion playing] -Stupid, regressive whores.
You men that get online bashing Megan Thee Stallion's music,
y'all have a lot to say about things that you say you're not impressed by
and that you say you don't like.
For somebody who thinks it's terrible, you sure have, uh, memorized the lyrics.
[Megan] Right. They dissect the lyrics, they dissect my life.
Well, let me give y'all something y'all might actually wanna see.
So I'm like, "Okay. Boom. Here you go."
♪ I remember hoes Used to clap for me happily ♪
♪ Now I'm bossed up And them same hoes mad at me ♪
♪ Acting like they ridin' Whole time tryin' to pass me ♪
♪ Watchin' me go through it Still tryin' to drag me ♪
I think they secretly like it.
-I do too. -[laughs]
Yeah. I feel like they're the majority of the views. [chuckles]
What are the kind of craziest things people have said about you?
-People say a lot of crazy stuff. Um-- -Yes, they do.
[laughs] And I'm trying to keep it as PG as I can.
Once I read that I wasn't really in school and I'm doing it for clout.
-And I'm like, "Okay." -[Hillary chuckles]
-People just make shit up. -[Megan] It's just insane, it's like--
-Like, they just make stuff up. -[Megan] And believe it.
-They will argue down… -Oh, my gosh. Like--
…that this is the truth.
My husband and I got married before we got married.
-I'm married every week. -[Chelsea] You're married?
-Yeah. -Married all the time.
-I've also been divorced. It was their-- -[laughs]
-Didn't know. -Uh, yeah, I didn't either.
And then, when you respond, it's like, "Oh, you're supposed to be above it.
You're supposed to be this and that." And I'm like, "Girl, I'm a human too."
Like, you know what? I actually really don't care.
You could probably have said the worst thing
you could've ever said to me, and you just went about your day.
You ate your sandwiches, you went to work. Like, you hung out with your family.
You forgot you said it. And then I'm carrying it around all day.
So I'm like, "Okay, I definitely can't be carrying this baggage."
Have you-- Have you tried to limit how much you look personally online?
-I had to take a break from social media. -[Hillary] I think you're smart.
Yeah. I-I really wanted to work on some new music, and--
and actually write and get focused.
Because when you, like, let a lot of outside noise in,
it kind of, like, stops you from your, like-- your original mission.
And I felt like that's what was happening.
You see a lot of people attacking a woman, right?
And then it's like, the first thing they think is,
"Let's bandwagon on it. I also heard this. I also know that.
And let's disregard how this may be making her feel right now.
Look at her having a breakdown." Like, you know what I'm saying?
Like, you put me through so much, and then when I finally start responding,
now I'm crazy, now I'm having a mental breakdown.
-It's always the same playbook, though. -Right.
But then I had to really just learn
that that's what comes with being a powerful woman.
When you don't show any weakness, they try to keep on figuring out,
-"What is it that's gonna make her tick?" -[Hillary] They want to break you down.
As much as you come at me, I'ma come at you. I'ma be--
But I'ma come at you just with my confidence.
I'ma come at you with just my life.
Maybe one day you'll get tired, I don't know.
-But you not gonna break me down. -[Hillary] Yeah.
I bet you get worn out before I do.
-[Hillary laughs] -So… [laughs]
[Chelsea] That is true.
[Hillary] You got a stormy night.
Look at her stormy night.
Oh, whoa. You're so tidy.
[all laughing]
-[Hillary] Oh, my God. That's some sizzle. -[all laughing]
[Watts] You're getting a facial.
This is truly unbelievable.
[Hillary] Humor can be a powerful antidote,
even when it comes to taking on things like prejudice.
Negin, you're an activist and a comic. Give us a little of your background.
I wanted to be in public service
and I wanted to make a difference and all of that stuff.
But, um, the pull of comedy was just too strong.
Um, so at a certain point I went, you know, into being full-time,
um, in comedy.
[Chelsea] And what did your parents say?
I mean, my immigrant parents loved it.
[all laugh]
I remember what--
Fe-Feeling that my parents were disappointed in me
because I overheard my mom saying to one of her friends,
"I'm disappointed in Negin." You know?
[laughs]
It's my kind of comedy that keeps ISIS going?
"ISIS is training right now to kill your whole family
and shit down your neck hole
after they remove your head with a dull blade."
Can I invite you to a stand-up comedy show?
It's called The Muslims are Coming.
There's a bunch of Muslims on stage but they're hilarious.
The scariest death threat I've ever gotten was actually to my parents' home phone.
And it went, you know, "We're gonna kill your daughter.
We're gonna kill all of you if she keeps doing what she's doing."
Which, to-- Again, remind you, is telling jokes.
So, one of the films I made called The Muslims are Coming, um,
which, you know, some people thought was like a--
like a warning lecture on the coming Muslim apocalypse or whatever.
We rounded up a bunch of, um, Muslim-American comedians,
in a nonviolent way, and we went on the road
to Alabama and Mississippi, and, um, Arizona.
-[Hill] Isn't Arizona, like-- -Right. Yeah.
Like, places where they love the Muzzies.
We would set up these, like, "Ask a Muslim" booth
in the middle of town squares,
but we would also, like, ply people with, like, candy and stuff.
A live Muslim is here to answer your questions.
[Farsad] The interesting thing is, when you approach people,
-I think, with love, and you-- -And humor.
And humor, and make it a comfortable space,
people are more likely to ask you questions.
-So, I would get questions like… -"Well, how do you feel about 9/11?"
Which, for some people, may be just a rage-inducing question.
-Mm-hmm. -Right? Um, but for me, I was like,
"You know what? I'm in, you know, deep Georgia or wherever.
And they might have never met a Muslim." You know?
-Yeah, or they don't know they have. -Or they don't know they have.
Because we walk among you.
And they haven't heard a Muslim denounce 9/11.
I'll do it.
Let me bring them into my world, and then maybe we'll have a laugh.
For someone who has a small chuckle, and then in some other situation
another chuckle, and another chuckle and another chuckle.
Those chuckles add up to something like social change.
Right. Right.
And I always respond with, like, "I'm sorry you hate me.
I hope you find a comedian that you like."
You know, "Have a great day. Smiley-face emoji."
When they go low, we go emoji.
ContraPoints.
The Internet show where we talk about sadness, fascism, sexual deviation, cults.
"Can everyone finally agree
that ContraPoints belongs directly inside a garbage can."
Here I am, sweetie.
"Natalie Wynn is such a terrible person, my God."
"I hate ContraPoints so goddamn much, it's unbelievable."
"ContraPoints, more like Disappoints."
[chuckles] Now that's a good one.
If you're gonna drag me, at least be funny.
I'm really looking forward to meeting Natalie, AKA ContraPoints.
[Chelsea] The Internet can be a real breeding ground
for hate and disinformation,
but with the help of her boundless empathy and her master's in philosophy,
she's helped people question their extremist beliefs.
Who do you people think I am?
I'm a socially conscious YouTube entertainer,
not transsexual Gandhi.
[Hillary] She uses costumes and accents and theatrical props
to make those points.
-And I think that is important… -[Chelsea] Yeah, yeah.
…because not everybody responds to a logical argument.
You sometimes have to try different approaches
to open people's eyes, ears, and hearts.
-[Hillary] Hello, my dear. -[Wynn] Hello. Hi.
-Thank you for having us. -Can I give you a hug?
-Oh, of course. Yes. Okay. -Okay. I'm more of a hugger.
[Hillary] How long have you lived in this fabulous house?
[Wynn] Since September.
The second I walked in and I saw this staircase, I was like,
[inhales sharply] "I want a camera facing that."
I'm looking around. I'm seeing fabulous clothes and hats.
You have to grab people's attention and then hold it.
Especially on YouTube, you're competing with cat videos and--
-My mother does love a good cat video. -Well, who doesn't. [chuckles]
[Chelsea] Do you have people reach out to you with specific requests
because they think it might be particularly impactful
to someone in their lives?
[Wynn] People often say, "my brother" or "my mother,"
"I'm losing them to Alex Jones, I'm losing them to QAnon."
[Chelsea] Fifteen percent of Americans now believe QAnon.
I really feel for those people. It's like the Civil War.
Like, families are being torn apart by this stuff.
So what do we do about hate?
Is it possible to persuade people out of their very angry mode of thinking?
I think it is possible. I think that, um,
it just can't be done by straightforward, rational argument.
Suppose someone has a hatred towards a marginalized group.
That's abstract.
But I meet them in person,
they're perfectly pleasant and polite and introspectful.
It's like there's this cognitive dissonance
of what a transgender person is.
And then there's you sitting in front of them,
and it's like, "Oh, well, you're a person.
I can interact with you perfectly ordin-- In an ordinary way."
The way you watch a YouTube video,
you're watching this person talk to the camera.
It's like they're talking directly to you.
-It feels very intimate. -It does.
People call it "parasocial relationships."
People feel like they kind of know you,
and so you can use your connection with someone
to try to kind of open them up.
That's a really smart strategy.
-Hard to do, but really smart. -[Wynn] It's hard to do, yeah.
The promise of "canceling"
was that it was going to give power back to people who had none
and bring justice to prominent abusers.
It's in a way the 21st century version of the guillotine.
But also like the guillotine,
it can become a sadistic entertainment spectacle.
You made a really important point when you said it's moved from,
"Okay, somebody did, you know, a stupid, maybe wrong thing"
to becoming "a stupid, wrong person who has been cast out."
Although accountability is a good thing.
[Hillary] Accountability is fine,
but canceling people for who they are is not.
Or assuming that what they've done is all of who they are.
[Hillary] That's right.
That someone is the totality of any one action.
And yet, I do think accountability is really important.
Say we want accountability, but what does that mean?
In the absence of due process,
what you get is a mob dressed as retribution,
as shunning, shaming, harassment.
I see it as doing that damage at the moment.
People seem to connect with this kind of empathetic, uh, tone
that my videos have.
They don't feel judged.
I never want to make people feel like,
"You're a terrible person. Why are you like this?"
Because, why? Wha-- What-- What good is that gonna do?
[Chelsea] Using your platform to call out hate can take guts.
It can mean opening yourself up to some pretty harsh criticism.
One of the funny things about standing up to hate,
is that when you do in a public forum,
you often get more attention than you ever would have expected.
[Chelsea] Jemele, you wouldn't know anything about that?
Like when you stand up to hate in a public forum
-and then you get more attention? -[Hill] Mostly for me,
I don't know about you, I get nothing but love letters.
We know what a good time you've been having the last couple of years.
[Chelsea] Jemele Hill is someone I've admired for a long time
as a sports journalist.
For a while, she was most known as a reporter who, like,
-just was telling the truth. -Mmm.
And I have this high-profile job and in a Twitter exchange
with somebody who is trying to excuse Donald Trump's behavior.
And this is a few weeks after Charlottesville,
so we all know what the-- his response was to that. And, um--
-[Chelsea] "Very fine people." -"Very fine people on both sides."
[news anchor] Jemele Hill wrote on Twitter that "Donald Trump is a white supremacist
who has largely surrounded himself with other white supremacists."
I didn't think that I was saying anything remotely controversial.
I just thought that everybody sort of knew that and, next thing I know,
the White House is saying I should be fired.
You know, being a Black woman in a high-profile position,
all of that was the perfect cocktail for complete nonsense.
And so a lot of death threats.
Even having to go through all of that, I'm glad that it happened.
And, um, now it puts me in a better position
to be an even stronger voice and has made me even more,
uh, unapologetic, um, than I've ever been.
Particularly since I'm not at ESPN anymore, my approach is different.
Now, I'm flaming cats. Because, like, at the-- [stammers]
You don't get to disrupt my day with your level of ignorance.
And I don't have time for everybody.
But sometimes when I got time, oh, I got time.
-[chuckles] -And I always joke that I was like,
the worst time you can catch me on social media
is when I have to get my hair braided, 'cause it's, like, a six-hour process.
So I'm just sitting in the chair like, "Say something." [laughs]
-[laughs] I'm ready! I'm ready. -You hear? I'm ready.
You gonna get it today."
"Jemele Hill got fired from ESPN
and won't leave us alone with those ugly-ass micro braids."
By the way, they're called individuals. Get your terminology right.
"Cancel Jemele. She is such a race-baiter and knows nothing about sports."
Take exception to the sports part.
"Thank God I unfollowed Jemele Hill for days like today."
Then how did you know what I said?
I've been so accustomed to the hate.
Like, I've been getting hate letters since I was in college.
The first time I ever got called a nigger was when I went to Michigan State.
Right? And unfortunately, because I haven't dealt with it
in some fashion for so long, I'm battle-tested now.
And I hate telling younger women that, you know,
you just have to kind of get used to it.
And I started to amend that message,
'cause I don't want them to get used to it.
You know, I made that mistake by doing that.
But it can't just be the people most victimized by the oppression
put in a position to have to solve it.
I'ma need you to give me some help. All right? Everybody has to do their part.
[Hillary] That's 100% right.
Just because we choose to bring awareness and attention
to what are very real conditions for people li-- that look like us,
because we want to fight so that this country actually lives up
to all the pretty words that they put in the brochure.
We want America to be its best self.
And the fact that there are people who would rather,
in some cases, kill us than see that happen, is very sad.
But it's also very inspiring in that I think it keeps me on mission.
-Oh, my gosh. Look at this. -[Collins] Isn't it?
Okay, now, Suzie, you gave us a lot in here.
-Oh, I love this color. My-- -Aw.
One of my grandsons' favorite color is purple.
[Bro] It was Heather's favorite color too.
Okay, Susan. [laughing]
[chuckles] Baby girl, I don't care if you get it or not.
The hardest thing that I can imagine anybody going through is losing a child.
These two women, Susan and Dawn, lost their children to hate crimes,
to deliberate, intentional murder in both cases.
In Dawn's case, her son was a victim of someone who just hated him
because of the color of his skin.
You just do a few rows and see what you-- what you think you can do.
Susan's daughter was murdered when a car aimed at a crowd
that was protesting neo-Nazis in Charlottesville.
Through-- Through that loop. All right.
[Hillary] They each have tried to speak out against hate
in every way that they can.
And they really have proven how love is stronger than hate,
even in the worst of circumstances.
[Bro chuckles] You look like you're struggling too.
Well, I am struggling. This is-- This is hard, girl.
It is!
Honestly, ladies, there's no way you're gonna learn to crochet this fast.
[all laughing]
Is crocheting something that you can use to kind of get away from what's going on--
[Bro] It lowers blood pressure. So, let me tell you.
When Heather was murdered, that went off like a bomb in my brain.
And I had always been a voracious reader, a voracious knitter and crocheter.
And all of that went away until 2020.
[Hillary] I can't even frankly imagine
how the two of you picked yourselves up after what happened.
That young man you were so proud of, everything you hoped a son could be.
And then that was all taken from you by a hateful, terrible act of violence.
-For no reason. -[Hillary, Bro] No reason.
-And the same thing with your Heather. -For Heather.
Well, with Heather, there was at least an event afoot that precipitated it.
He said he didn't like the looks of the crowd
-or what they supported, and-- -He said that?
He had to plead guilty to Heather's murder in order to avoid the death penalty.
-And you were in the court that day? -Oh, yeah.
I never missed a single day of court.
Did you look at him? Did you ever get him to look at you?
There were a number of neo-Nazis and alt-right people in the crowd,
-and they got my full glare. -[Collins] Mm-hmm.
-Did any of them say anything to you? -They didn't dare.
[Hillary] The two of you became resolved to speak out,
resist this hatred that took both of your children's lives.
How would you explain how you were able to do that, Susan?
There were days I didn't. There were long days I sat home and cried.
But people would say, "Can you come talk to us?"
And I'd say, "Oh, okay."
And that kind of pulled me along for a while.
But in the beginning I was talking about Heather, because, you know,
when you lose a loved one, you wanna talk about them.
-[Collins] Right. Right. -[Hillary] Yep.
[Bro] Eventually, I began to see
that was putting a white face on all of August 12th.
And so I moved away from that to focus on the reasons why Heather died,
which is in support of Black Lives Matter,
in support of Black rights, in support of rights for all.
Heather's method of dealing with people, and she actually did this
with a-a young woman on the day she was killed, is to say,
"Well, talk to me about why you feel this way,"
and then try to discuss it with them gently.
And so, when haters have come at me on Facebook, I would say to them,
"Well, why do you feel this way? Wha-- What are you basing this on?"
And occasionally, I would get through.
A lot of times I wouldn't, but I have to believe I'm planting seeds.
Do you personally know people who have rejected a life of hate?
I've had two of the young men who were in the torch rally
-call me to ask my forgiveness. -[Collins] Hmm.
And I said, "It's not me that you need to ask."
I said, "You need to go talk to the communities that you've harmed,
and you need to work out your restitution in those communities."
And they were not so thrilled with that.
They wanted my absolution so they could just go on about their business.
And I said, "It's not that easy. You gotta do some work here."
[Bro] I've been handed this platform that I didn't ask for, I didn't deserve.
-[Hillary] Wish you didn't have. -[Bro] Right.
But if I have it, I'm gonna make use of it to bring other people in, other issues in.
Susan is my hero. She said,
"Every chance I get, I'm gonna make sure
that the world knows about Richard as well."
-[Hillary] Aw. -Isn't that beautiful?
[Hillary] That's a true mom-spirit. I mean, really, that is.
-How could-- How could I not? -[Hillary] Hundred percent.
My son committed the crime of saying no to a person that didn't look like him.
It's 'cause the killer told him what? To get out of the way?
"Step left. Step left." And my son said, "No."
And then he took the knife and plunged it into his chest.
And he died at the scene.
Has he been, uh, tried and convicted, and--
-[Collins] Finally. -Mmm. Was it a state or federal trial?
[Collins] It didn't make it to the feds.
And when the hate crime was thrown out,
there were members from the other side that actually applauded and high-fived.
I just do not understand how that happened in that case.
Don't let another mother
feel the pain that I feel daily.
A temporary hate crime law is now in effect in our state,
named after Lieutenant Richard Collins III.
I really applaud you for going forward and getting the law changed in Maryland
so that there could never be any question whatsoever about what a hate crime is.
Absolutely. No one gets to dictate who is not an American.
We did everything that "society" says that you're supposed to do
to raise your children.
And then, someone say to me,
"You're not good enough because you have melanin,
that you should not stand there."
How dare you?
Well, I'm just so grateful the two of you are doing this work.
It-- It's a choice every day. You do not have to talk to anybody.
You don't have to keep working the way you are. [inhales deeply]
And the fact that you are gives me hope.
It gives me a lot of hope.
Susan, do you say we have a choice?
[Bro] What else would I do right now?
We're moms, and we didn't ask for this.
But now that it has come to my door,
we have to buck up and do what we have to do.
When I speak to Susan, she gets me.
And I love her for it.
-Whoo-hoo! I got one. I got one. -Yes, baby! I knew you could.
-I knew you could. Do it again. -[giggles]
The last time I saw her, we talked way longer than usual.
And we went out to the car, and we hugged and we hugged.
And we kissed and we kissed. And we laughed, and I said,
"It's, like, not like I'll never see you again."
-And I never saw her again. Mmm. -Oh, my gosh.
The last time I… [sniffles] …spoke with Richard,
he said to me that he was going out to celebrate, 'cause he was--
He made it. He-- He said, "Mom, I made it." [stammers]
"I'm an officer, and the world is going to know my name."
I don't remember if I ever noticed this song before she died or not, but--
What-- What was the song?
It's about never taking for granted the last time you see somebody.
Mmm. [inhales sharply]
["Like I'm Gonna Lose You" playing]
Ah. I did it!
You did. [kisses] I love you. Have fun with Gene.
-I love you. Bye! -I love you too.
[Chelsea] Shannon, for decades, has dedicated herself to helping people
who are part of neo-Nazi, white-supremacist organizations,
escape from them and then do the really hard work of atonement.
[Martinez] So, just give me a call.
I do what I do because I spent,
from the time I was 15 until the time I was almost 20,
inside the violent white-supremacy, uh, movement.
My favorite thing to do is to work on building prevention
so that people never become Nazis in the first place.
[laughing]
I mean, totally.
[Martinez] Samantha is a former member of a white power group.
She and I connected, and she's now, you know, my friend,
somebody that I mentor.
And I feel very honored to be somebody
that she trusts to talk through and share those things with.
[Chelsea] Wow. Beautiful.
[Hillary] So, we've seen herons. What else is-- What other birds?
[Chelsea] Well, there's a turtle right there.
[Hillary] Oh, yes. There it is.
Where you used the river to bring people out of white supremacy
and neo-Nazism and the fascist movement, how did that start?
[Martinez] Anyone who has ever tried to quit any bad habit,
you have to have something positive to insert in its place.
And what's frightening about it, especially now,
there's the risk of kids becoming victims, either of the violence or of the ideology.
And it's like, it's-- It's insidious.
[Martinez] And a lot of people in there feel so isolated and alone,
that to be with other people, just to be with nature and realize, like,
how you are a part of this bigger thing.
Yeah, it's really important.
[Martinez] Well, cheers.
-To a successful float down the river. -Cheers. Cheers.
[Hillary] Cheers is right. You're not kidding.
It was so much fun being with you.
[Hillary] Could you tell us a little bit, Sam, about how you ended up
finding yourself enmeshed with Unite the Right?
I was dating someone, and this was right after
I had experienced, uh, this trauma. And I just--
I felt really broken and alone, and I had no self-worth.
And I met this person that--
I wanted someone to tell me who I was, 'cause I didn't know how to do it myself.
And this other person had fallen into the violent far-right.
He just started filling me with these ideas,
and I was so desperate for his validation and affirmation
that I just kind of followed him wherever he went.
And as we all know, the rhetoric that the far-right uses, is--
-It's-- It's masterful. -[Chelsea] They're very good marketers.
And that's what I needed.
I needed someone to tell me I was special.
And I didn't know how to prove that to myself.
And I had an entire movement saying, like, "Just being born was enough.
You don't have to do anything else."
Um, and I wanted that instead of accepting my mediocrity
and trying to improve it.
And when the Unite the Right rally happened
and Heather Heyer was murdered, the veil was lifted.
-It just changed everything. It-- -[Martinez] Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know,
I've had the chance to sit and talk with Heather's mom, um, Susan.
So, you know, hearing how it totally pierced your thinking,
you can see the kind of connection, as strange and tragic as that is…
-Yeah. Yep. -…can have a real impact, can't it?
You start to look at the slogans and you start to look at the leaders,
and the hypocrisy and-and the weird, um, like, disconnect between reality
and what they think an ideal is.
I treated it as it was, an abusive relationship.
I had to sneak out. I had to lie.
There was a point with my mom where I remember calling her,
and I was like, "Mom, I might not talk to you for a couple of months.
I might not talk to you ever again. I just need you to believe
that I'm really trying to do the right thing." Uh--
You thought they might actually kill you?
[Sam] I mean, they told me they would.
It is the most painful thing to look in the mirror
and realize that's who you are.
It is my deepest belief that we live amidst a trauma pandemic.
We live in an incredibly violent nation.
The way that a lot of people are parented. Bullying. Racism.
I knew that I had been sexually assaulted when I was 14 years old
and didn't process that at all.
And one of the things that I came to understand
about the toxic effects of trauma
is that you end up viewing the world as an inherently dangerous
and threatening place.
And so if somebody comes along
and offers you a really easy-to-hold-on-to explanation for why the world
feels dangerous and threatening all of the time to you,
like, that's incredibly seductive.
I'm not trying to change your politics.
I just want to help you move towards thriving
and to not dehumanize other people, not look to utilizing violence
as an expression of the things that are happening
and the fears that you have in your life.
For me, like, that's the goal.
Are you optimistic?
Millions-- Billions of dollars are spent exploiting our fear
and trying to keep us from having hope.
Because a hopeless people
is an easily manipulated and controlled people.
But a hopeful people is a powerful people.
Like, a hopeful people can move mountains
because they believe mountains can be moved.
And in America, we definitely have mountains we need to move.
[Hillary laughs]
And so, for me, I feel this obligation to hope.
The amount of, let's say, gutsiness it took for the two of you
to find your way out is truly inspiring.
I really believe that the more people who can meet you, hear from you,
the more positive the impact you both will have.
Like the pair-- the wings spread open. Like a new chapter, sort of--
[Martinez] I love it.
["I Can Change" playing]
We can have big conversations and pass laws, but at the end of the day,
it's the personal relationship that really matters,
as to whether somebody trusts enough to make amends and to start a new life.
-I mean, we need both. -We need both.
[Hillary] The women that we've met left me very hopeful.
Women who deal with really hard issues, but who themselves are hopeful
or they wouldn't get up every day, speaking up, standing up,
and making a difference like they are.
-A blast over… -Okay, cool. Mm-hmm.
[Hillary] Hi, Shannon!
Hi!
I just wanna call and tell you how proud I am.
-I'm just really here cheering you on! -All right, are you ready?
Oh, wow! That's beautiful.
I don't have a white power tattoo anymore. [chuckles]
-Yay! [speaks indistinctly] -Yeah. It's gone. [chuckles]
I love it.
Sometimes those stories don't break through all the negativity,
the cynicism, the pessimism.
And like a feeling of responsibility to be hopeful.
-Exactly. -Because if they can be hopeful,
how could I be so conceited to not be hopeful?
Exactly.