1 00:00:11,761 --> 00:00:15,971 I know you're not allowed to say this now. Art could be anything. Anyone's an artist. 2 00:00:16,057 --> 00:00:17,807 People go to court, you know, 3 00:00:17,892 --> 00:00:21,062 "I can't make a cake for a gay couple, a wedding cake, 4 00:00:21,146 --> 00:00:22,686 because the cake is my art." 5 00:00:23,189 --> 00:00:26,399 Aside from the political aspect of that, which is reprehensible, 6 00:00:26,484 --> 00:00:29,824 there's also the aspect… I have news for you, Mr. Baker, you know? 7 00:00:29,904 --> 00:00:31,824 If you can eat it, it's not art. 8 00:00:31,906 --> 00:00:33,616 -Okay? -[Martin laughs] 9 00:00:33,700 --> 00:00:37,080 If you can say, "I'll have that and a cup of coffee," that's not art. 10 00:00:37,162 --> 00:00:38,372 That's a snack. 11 00:00:38,455 --> 00:00:41,075 -♪ Baby ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 12 00:00:41,166 --> 00:00:43,836 -♪ Baby ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 13 00:00:43,918 --> 00:00:47,088 -♪ Oh baby ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 14 00:00:47,172 --> 00:00:50,182 -♪ Do I love you? ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 15 00:00:50,258 --> 00:00:53,048 -♪ No one above you ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 16 00:00:53,136 --> 00:00:55,676 -♪ Now hold me tight ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 17 00:00:55,764 --> 00:00:59,234 -♪ And make everything all right ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 18 00:00:59,309 --> 00:01:01,979 -♪ Because the night time ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 19 00:01:02,062 --> 00:01:04,902 -♪ Oh, is the right time ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 20 00:01:04,981 --> 00:01:08,281 -♪ To be with the one you love now ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 21 00:01:08,359 --> 00:01:11,319 -♪ Oh yeah, now ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 22 00:01:11,404 --> 00:01:14,204 -♪ Tease me ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 23 00:01:14,282 --> 00:01:17,412 -♪ Squeeze me ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 24 00:01:17,494 --> 00:01:18,504 -[Fran] Yes? -[man] Hi. 25 00:01:18,578 --> 00:01:20,458 Can you talk about your current projects? 26 00:01:20,538 --> 00:01:24,038 Can I talk about current writing projects? Give me your number. I'll call you. 27 00:01:24,125 --> 00:01:25,535 [laughter] 28 00:01:26,211 --> 00:01:28,711 [woman] How can one learn a sense of humor? 29 00:01:28,797 --> 00:01:33,047 How can you acquire a sense of humor? The same way you can acquire height. 30 00:01:33,134 --> 00:01:34,934 -[laughter] -Yeah. 31 00:01:35,011 --> 00:01:38,311 [Martin] What were you saying about somebody putting a shoot on Instagram? 32 00:01:38,389 --> 00:01:41,809 I'm outside, a guy goes, "I saw this on Instagram so I thought I'd come by." 33 00:01:41,893 --> 00:01:43,353 Who put this on Instagram? 34 00:01:43,436 --> 00:01:47,396 -[Martin] No, I know. I can't believe it. -Isn't that a bad idea, don't you think? 35 00:01:47,899 --> 00:01:50,989 -♪ I said, baby ♪ -♪Night and day ♪ 36 00:01:51,069 --> 00:01:54,029 -♪ Baby ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 37 00:01:54,114 --> 00:01:56,784 -♪ Baby ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 38 00:01:56,866 --> 00:01:58,326 ♪ Whoa! ♪ 39 00:01:58,409 --> 00:02:01,579 I remember the first time I recognized a lack of talent in myself. 40 00:02:02,288 --> 00:02:04,078 I played the cello as a child, 41 00:02:04,707 --> 00:02:09,127 and we had a school orchestra. Every school had an orchestra. 42 00:02:10,046 --> 00:02:12,796 This public school… Every public school had an orchestra. 43 00:02:12,882 --> 00:02:15,972 Um, and they lent you the cello. 44 00:02:16,553 --> 00:02:19,183 At a certain age, I don't remember what age it was, 45 00:02:19,264 --> 00:02:22,644 the school took back these cellos, 46 00:02:22,725 --> 00:02:27,515 and if you wanted to continue playing, you had to buy a cello. 47 00:02:27,605 --> 00:02:32,105 So I remember very well telling this to my parents, 48 00:02:32,193 --> 00:02:35,073 "We have to give the cello back and now we have to buy a cello." 49 00:02:35,572 --> 00:02:38,662 Um, and I remember we lived in a little split-level house. 50 00:02:38,741 --> 00:02:42,121 There were like, I don't know, four stairs and then the kitchen. 51 00:02:42,203 --> 00:02:45,333 And I would sit on the stairs and listen to my parents talk. 52 00:02:45,415 --> 00:02:48,835 And I heard my parents trying to figure out how to pay for a cello. 53 00:02:48,918 --> 00:02:51,168 And so I went into the kitchen, 54 00:02:51,254 --> 00:02:53,844 where I wasn't meant to know they were having this talk, 55 00:02:53,923 --> 00:02:56,763 and I said, "You know, don't buy me a cello." 56 00:02:57,886 --> 00:02:59,636 "I'm not good. I'm really not good. 57 00:02:59,721 --> 00:03:02,891 It's not worth it. It's not worth spending the money on me on this." 58 00:03:02,974 --> 00:03:08,064 And my mother said, "Well, you know, that's 'cause you don't practice enough." 59 00:03:08,897 --> 00:03:10,857 "If you practiced more, you'd be good." 60 00:03:11,357 --> 00:03:14,647 And I said, "No, if I practiced more, I'd be better, 61 00:03:14,736 --> 00:03:16,146 but I'm never gonna be good." 62 00:03:16,237 --> 00:03:20,237 I really enjoyed it. It's the only thing I can remember enjoying that I was bad at. 63 00:03:20,325 --> 00:03:21,365 -Um… -[Martin chuckles] 64 00:03:21,451 --> 00:03:24,411 With the whole orchestra playing, you don't hear how bad I am. 65 00:03:24,495 --> 00:03:26,825 It's a kind of beautiful experience. 66 00:03:26,915 --> 00:03:28,995 Plus, Leonard Bernstein was my childhood idol. 67 00:03:30,001 --> 00:03:36,631 ["William Tell Overture" by Gioachino Rossini playing] 68 00:03:42,013 --> 00:03:45,233 Leonard Bernstein had a television show when I was a child 69 00:03:45,308 --> 00:03:46,728 called Young People's Concerts, 70 00:03:46,809 --> 00:03:48,389 and it was on Sunday, 71 00:03:48,478 --> 00:03:51,518 and I would be waiting every Sunday to see Leonard Bernstein. 72 00:03:51,606 --> 00:03:52,726 I adored him. 73 00:03:52,815 --> 00:03:54,855 Real children went to these concerts. 74 00:03:54,943 --> 00:03:56,903 Not me, but I would see the children go in. 75 00:03:56,986 --> 00:03:59,856 It probably was, like, two years till I realized they were real. 76 00:03:59,948 --> 00:04:03,118 Like, "These are real children?" I guess I thought they were actors. 77 00:04:03,201 --> 00:04:06,911 Okay. Now what do you think that music's all about? 78 00:04:07,413 --> 00:04:09,083 Music is notes. 79 00:04:09,666 --> 00:04:13,166 Beautiful notes and sounds put together in such a way 80 00:04:13,253 --> 00:04:16,593 that we get pleasure out of listening to them. That's all there is to it. 81 00:04:16,673 --> 00:04:18,803 He would explain things on TV, 82 00:04:18,883 --> 00:04:23,433 and also he looked exactly like a child's idea of an orchestra conductor. 83 00:04:23,513 --> 00:04:24,933 This was also very helpful. 84 00:04:25,014 --> 00:04:30,774 ["William Tell Overture" by Gioachino Rossini playing] 85 00:04:30,853 --> 00:04:34,153 "This is the thing that can be done on this instrument, 86 00:04:34,232 --> 00:04:38,032 and this is not you, Fran. You cannot do this." 87 00:04:38,111 --> 00:04:42,241 It wouldn't matter how much I practiced. I knew that. Okay? So that was it. 88 00:04:43,116 --> 00:04:44,576 So I knew what talent was, 89 00:04:44,659 --> 00:04:49,249 because I was very aware of the lack of it in myself, okay, in this. 90 00:04:49,330 --> 00:04:52,580 When I was little, at one point, I wanted to be an artist and I thought, 91 00:04:52,667 --> 00:04:54,747 "Why did you decide not to?" Because… 92 00:04:54,836 --> 00:04:59,376 And then I thought, "You decided not to be an artist. Too pleasurable, Fran." 93 00:05:00,425 --> 00:05:03,255 Too pleas-- It's pleasurable for me to draw. 94 00:05:03,344 --> 00:05:10,104 So it's like, the kind of harsh judge that I am of other people, 95 00:05:10,184 --> 00:05:12,024 I am much worse on myself. 96 00:05:12,103 --> 00:05:15,823 It's like when people say, "Why are Jews not allowed to eat bacon?" 97 00:05:15,898 --> 00:05:19,568 -And I always say, "Too delicious." -[Martin laughs] 98 00:05:19,652 --> 00:05:20,862 "It's too delicious." 99 00:05:20,945 --> 00:05:24,615 At some point, someone said, "This is really delicious. No." 100 00:05:24,699 --> 00:05:28,579 So, at some point, I must have thought, in some unconscious way, 101 00:05:28,661 --> 00:05:31,961 -"Drawing, painting, too pleasurable. No." -[Martin] Too good, yeah. 102 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:36,130 Where do you think your sense of humor comes from? Is it more nature or nurture? 103 00:05:36,210 --> 00:05:40,170 I would say nature, because there wasn't that much nurture of it, I assure you. 104 00:05:40,256 --> 00:05:43,426 -[laughter] -I mean, in fact, it was punished. 105 00:05:43,509 --> 00:05:46,509 As a child, I was a girl. Perhaps you do not share this experience. 106 00:05:46,596 --> 00:05:48,386 And my mother said to me, 107 00:05:48,473 --> 00:05:51,103 when I got to be 12 or something like that, 108 00:05:51,184 --> 00:05:55,564 "Don't be funny around boys. Boys do not like funny girls." 109 00:05:56,230 --> 00:05:59,030 -Unfortunately, she was wrong. -[laughter] 110 00:05:59,108 --> 00:06:02,358 But the only thing I ever won, in the ninth grade, 111 00:06:02,445 --> 00:06:05,695 I won the Class Wit award, and I was afraid to bring it home. 112 00:06:05,782 --> 00:06:08,832 What school did you go to that they gave an award for wit? 113 00:06:08,910 --> 00:06:10,870 It was the Morristown Junior High School, 114 00:06:10,953 --> 00:06:13,333 which was the last time I graduated from anything. 115 00:06:13,831 --> 00:06:16,461 -They had the Wittiest Person in Class? -Yes. Class Wit. 116 00:06:16,542 --> 00:06:19,552 -It wasn't a rough field, you know. -[laughter] 117 00:06:19,629 --> 00:06:21,669 I wasn't vying with Oscar Wilde. 118 00:06:21,756 --> 00:06:23,756 [laughter] 119 00:06:23,841 --> 00:06:27,681 I remember when I was young, really young, like 12, 13 or whatever, 120 00:06:27,762 --> 00:06:30,642 I would be at my parents' house, where I lived. Um… 121 00:06:30,723 --> 00:06:34,943 I remember lying on the lawn, looking up into the sky, thinking, 122 00:06:35,019 --> 00:06:36,809 "How am I gonna get out of here?" 123 00:06:37,313 --> 00:06:40,273 I don't want you to think I had a Dickensian childhood. I didn't. 124 00:06:40,358 --> 00:06:41,778 But it was not suitable for me. 125 00:06:42,276 --> 00:06:44,446 You know, it wasn't that it was a bad place. 126 00:06:44,529 --> 00:06:48,529 It was just like, "No, this isn't the right place for me." 127 00:06:49,826 --> 00:06:52,996 [Martin] Why do you think so many young people still come to New York? 128 00:06:53,079 --> 00:06:54,119 What's here? 129 00:06:55,373 --> 00:06:57,793 New York. That's what's here. 130 00:06:59,127 --> 00:07:00,877 -[Martin] I mean-- -What's not here? 131 00:07:01,379 --> 00:07:05,049 That's the way to look at it. Wherever they're from is not here. 132 00:07:05,591 --> 00:07:06,511 So they come here. 133 00:07:06,592 --> 00:07:09,432 One of the reasons people our age came to New York, 134 00:07:09,512 --> 00:07:11,602 if you were gay, was because you were gay. 135 00:07:12,098 --> 00:07:13,718 So now you can be gay anywhere. 136 00:07:13,808 --> 00:07:15,638 Okay? So, um… 137 00:07:15,726 --> 00:07:19,936 But we came here, um, because you couldn't live in those places. 138 00:07:20,022 --> 00:07:24,532 Um, and so that created, you know, a kind of, um… 139 00:07:24,610 --> 00:07:28,490 density of, um, angry homosexuals, 140 00:07:28,573 --> 00:07:30,323 which is always good for a city. 141 00:07:30,408 --> 00:07:36,118 There's nothing better for a city than a dense population of angry homosexuals. 142 00:07:36,205 --> 00:07:39,285 Um, also, and then, at a certain point, very happy homosexuals 143 00:07:39,375 --> 00:07:41,745 when you find out it's so fun here! 144 00:07:42,753 --> 00:07:48,553 Many people, um, that I know who came to New York from places other than New York, 145 00:07:48,634 --> 00:07:52,934 um, many people had a lot of success. 146 00:07:53,514 --> 00:07:55,814 More than people who were born in New York. 147 00:07:55,892 --> 00:07:59,902 And I think that's because people born in New York understood how hard it was. 148 00:07:59,979 --> 00:08:03,109 But if you didn't know how hard it was, you just came. 149 00:08:03,191 --> 00:08:06,151 You know, I mean, I wrote poetry when I was young. 150 00:08:06,235 --> 00:08:08,065 I walked into the office of Grove Press, 151 00:08:08,154 --> 00:08:13,784 which was this very revered, kind of, you know, bohemian press, 152 00:08:13,868 --> 00:08:16,328 um, with a book of poetry I'd written. 153 00:08:16,829 --> 00:08:19,249 And I walked in, barefoot, I'd like to point out. 154 00:08:19,332 --> 00:08:20,922 I walked around New York barefoot. 155 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:25,050 The astonishing thing to me is that I'm alive, having walked barefoot in New York. 156 00:08:25,129 --> 00:08:29,879 And I walked in, and I put the manuscript on the desk of the receptionist. 157 00:08:30,676 --> 00:08:32,966 And I said, "I'm a poet." 158 00:08:33,513 --> 00:08:36,813 -I mean, "I'm a poet." Really? -[Martin chuckles] 159 00:08:36,891 --> 00:08:38,681 "Hello, John Donne." 160 00:08:38,768 --> 00:08:40,978 "I'm a poet. I'm a poet, 161 00:08:41,062 --> 00:08:43,692 um, and I'd like to submit this manuscript." 162 00:08:44,190 --> 00:08:45,150 "Okay," she said. 163 00:08:45,775 --> 00:08:50,565 And I left it there, and then I waited every day 164 00:08:50,655 --> 00:08:52,775 for the letter to come, saying, 165 00:08:52,865 --> 00:08:56,285 "We are so delighted to have discovered you as a great poet." 166 00:08:56,369 --> 00:09:00,209 Finally, the letter did come, saying, "Thank you anyway." 167 00:09:00,289 --> 00:09:01,209 [chuckles] Um… 168 00:09:01,290 --> 00:09:04,750 But after my first book came out, one of the first things I thought was, 169 00:09:04,835 --> 00:09:07,045 "Thank goodness they didn't publish that book," 170 00:09:07,129 --> 00:09:10,969 because, of course, I was a terrible poet, and then they would've republished it. 171 00:09:11,050 --> 00:09:13,890 So I was very lucky to have been rejected. 172 00:09:13,970 --> 00:09:17,560 [woman] As legend has it, you were tossed out of high school 173 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,270 and went to New York. How did you survive? 174 00:09:20,351 --> 00:09:24,061 -What did you do when you got to New York? -[Fran] It never seemed daunting to me. 175 00:09:24,146 --> 00:09:29,526 At least I didn't think that I couldn't do things, you know. 176 00:09:29,610 --> 00:09:31,070 And that's kind of remarkable, 177 00:09:31,153 --> 00:09:34,203 considering the fact of what a failure I was in school, 178 00:09:34,282 --> 00:09:36,992 which was my only profession before that. 179 00:09:37,076 --> 00:09:39,036 You can't be a bigger academic failure 180 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,210 than to be thrown out of high school senior year. 181 00:09:41,289 --> 00:09:44,329 It wasn't like I had a lifetime of success behind me buoying me up. 182 00:09:44,417 --> 00:09:46,667 Um, but I just didn't think about it. 183 00:09:46,752 --> 00:09:50,672 I just went to New York to be a writer, and that was it. 184 00:09:51,966 --> 00:09:54,136 I loved to write when I was child. 185 00:09:54,802 --> 00:09:59,182 I loved to write until the very first time I got an assignment to write for money. 186 00:09:59,682 --> 00:10:01,142 And then I hated to write. 187 00:10:01,642 --> 00:10:02,692 I have known… 188 00:10:04,270 --> 00:10:09,900 I would say, only one really, really good writer in my life who loves to write. 189 00:10:11,027 --> 00:10:15,777 Only one, um, loves to write. Most people who love to write are horrible writers. 190 00:10:15,865 --> 00:10:19,195 Of course they love to write. I love to sing. I'm a horrible singer. 191 00:10:19,285 --> 00:10:22,615 If you love to do something you're really bad at, that's not surprising. 192 00:10:22,705 --> 00:10:23,905 Here's the thing. 193 00:10:23,998 --> 00:10:27,668 Like, you can do a lot of things that are not good, 194 00:10:27,752 --> 00:10:33,592 and there's nothing wrong with doing things ineptly or badly or horrifyingly, 195 00:10:33,674 --> 00:10:35,094 but keep it to yourself. 196 00:10:35,176 --> 00:10:36,296 Do not share this. 197 00:10:36,927 --> 00:10:42,347 I think people have an obligation to show to the world things that are… 198 00:10:43,726 --> 00:10:45,846 Not great, most people aren't capable of that, 199 00:10:45,936 --> 00:10:48,436 but better than most things people show to the world. 200 00:10:48,522 --> 00:10:51,902 Now, people show everything. Every single thing. Um… 201 00:10:53,235 --> 00:10:57,235 Uh, there's nothing wrong with it, morally, um, 202 00:10:57,323 --> 00:11:00,493 but I wonder, like, you know, how these people who are… 203 00:11:00,576 --> 00:11:02,906 The people who have always done this, who are young, 204 00:11:02,995 --> 00:11:04,905 who have always lived in this world, 205 00:11:04,997 --> 00:11:08,457 um, I wonder how they would judge anything. 206 00:11:08,542 --> 00:11:09,882 -[Martin] Mmm. -You know? 207 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:15,050 And since, you know, basically, making distinctions is my profession 208 00:11:15,132 --> 00:11:16,722 and judging is my profession, 209 00:11:17,218 --> 00:11:21,008 I don't think there's any people like me in a young generation. 210 00:11:21,931 --> 00:11:23,771 They wouldn't be allowed to be like me. 211 00:11:23,849 --> 00:11:27,269 Not that my life has been a bed of roses, not that people love the way I am, 212 00:11:27,353 --> 00:11:29,693 but, you know, they're… 213 00:11:30,815 --> 00:11:34,275 they're either incredibly critical in a kind of crazy way, 214 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,200 like, you know, "I hate your hair style. You should die." 215 00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:42,579 You know, or they're incredibly overpraising of people. 216 00:11:42,660 --> 00:11:45,870 "Oh, that's great. Oh, you're great. Keep going. You're great." 217 00:11:46,497 --> 00:11:48,827 You know, I would basically say, you know, 218 00:11:49,417 --> 00:11:50,627 "Your hairstyle? 219 00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:53,550 No one should be killed for your hairstyle, but your writing? 220 00:11:53,629 --> 00:11:56,009 Stop. Don't keep going. You're not great." 221 00:11:57,216 --> 00:12:01,176 Once I asked you because you often express how much you like to write. 222 00:12:01,262 --> 00:12:04,522 -Not a thing writers frequently say. -[laughs] 223 00:12:04,598 --> 00:12:09,268 I asked why you like to write. You said, "Because otherwise I'm stuck with life." 224 00:12:09,353 --> 00:12:11,233 [Toni laughs] 225 00:12:11,313 --> 00:12:12,613 Well, yeah. 226 00:12:12,690 --> 00:12:17,820 Well, I have to say that after I finished the first book I wrote, The Bluest Eye, 227 00:12:17,903 --> 00:12:23,533 there was a period of melancholy that was very profound, and I-- 228 00:12:23,617 --> 00:12:24,697 Now I know. 229 00:12:24,785 --> 00:12:30,825 I can anticipate that feeling at the close of a novel, um, 230 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:33,286 and at the close of the last revision, 231 00:12:33,377 --> 00:12:36,667 that constant picking over it and picking over it 232 00:12:36,756 --> 00:12:40,296 and making sure it's this word and not that word. 233 00:12:40,384 --> 00:12:41,764 Um, but it's true. 234 00:12:41,844 --> 00:12:47,024 "Stuck with life" may be a little strong, Fran, but it's certainly-- 235 00:12:47,099 --> 00:12:49,939 -I'm just quoting you, accurately. -[Toni laughs] 236 00:12:51,187 --> 00:12:56,027 The main thing writers need, or painters, or any other kind of artist, is talent. 237 00:12:56,108 --> 00:13:00,238 And the great thing about talent is that it is the one thing, 238 00:13:00,321 --> 00:13:01,701 the only thing I can think of, 239 00:13:01,781 --> 00:13:06,991 that is absolutely randomly distributed throughout the population of the world. 240 00:13:07,077 --> 00:13:11,117 It has nothing to do with anything. It has-- You cannot buy it. 241 00:13:11,207 --> 00:13:14,287 You cannot learn it. You know, you cannot inherit it. 242 00:13:14,794 --> 00:13:17,214 You can't. It's not genetic. Okay? 243 00:13:17,296 --> 00:13:21,966 It is just sprinkled like sand around the world, and it could come up anywhere. 244 00:13:22,051 --> 00:13:24,801 Now, there are many places where you might have this talent, 245 00:13:24,887 --> 00:13:27,217 but you have no ability to express it. Okay? 246 00:13:27,306 --> 00:13:29,516 There are many places like that, but, 247 00:13:30,142 --> 00:13:33,812 um, and it is probably the reason why people are always, 248 00:13:33,896 --> 00:13:36,396 especially in this country, um, 249 00:13:36,482 --> 00:13:41,152 looking for explanations for, um, success of a book or-- 250 00:13:41,237 --> 00:13:44,697 When I say "success," I don't mean commercial success. Other than talent. 251 00:13:45,783 --> 00:13:47,873 Because it's infuriating to people. 252 00:13:49,662 --> 00:13:51,912 [Ted] How rich was Edith Wharton when she started? 253 00:13:51,997 --> 00:13:54,327 [Fran] Very rich.  Edith Wharton was extremely rich. 254 00:13:54,416 --> 00:13:56,956 She was immensely rich. Okay? 255 00:13:57,044 --> 00:14:00,554 The main thing that makes Edith Wharton a great writer is talent. 256 00:14:01,048 --> 00:14:05,508 But the privileges of her wealth and her class is why we have this book, 257 00:14:05,594 --> 00:14:07,014 which is riveting. 258 00:14:07,096 --> 00:14:11,726 But it's very rare for someone in that class to write. 259 00:14:11,809 --> 00:14:15,099 So most people who wrote about that class were outside. 260 00:14:15,187 --> 00:14:17,767 That was real unusual for a woman especially. 261 00:14:17,857 --> 00:14:20,277 I mean, there were plenty of other rich women 262 00:14:20,359 --> 00:14:23,699 during the era of Edith Wharton, and they didn't write these books. 263 00:14:23,779 --> 00:14:27,369 Since there's always gonna be rich women, it's good if you get one like this. 264 00:14:27,449 --> 00:14:32,999 There's a letter here that I'm gonna read from the New York Times on July 31st, um, 265 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,040 in this article I read the other night. 266 00:14:35,124 --> 00:14:39,504 "An administrator in the city's education department denounces a reading skills exam 267 00:14:39,587 --> 00:14:42,667 that used an extract from Edith Wharton's Age of Innocence." 268 00:14:44,049 --> 00:14:47,469 And it was, it read, the passage in question begins, quote, 269 00:14:47,553 --> 00:14:53,853 "It was generally agreed in New York that Countess Olenska had 'lost her looks.'" 270 00:14:55,644 --> 00:15:00,114 The complaint is that, quote, "Any girl taking the exam," unquote, 271 00:15:00,774 --> 00:15:05,404 will experience the mention of losing your looks as a, quote, "psychic punch." 272 00:15:05,487 --> 00:15:07,617 -[laughter] -Unquote. 273 00:15:07,698 --> 00:15:11,788 Not to mention the countesses, who might… You know, it's like… 274 00:15:12,411 --> 00:15:15,961 Um, I've always taken a lot of care not to offend any countesses. Um. 275 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:17,710 [laughter] 276 00:15:17,791 --> 00:15:19,461 What am I-- This is insane! 277 00:15:20,294 --> 00:15:22,714 Okay? I mean, but I'm very delighted. 278 00:15:22,796 --> 00:15:28,046 This is the only way you're gonna get them to read Edith Wharton, by the way, so, um… 279 00:15:29,511 --> 00:15:31,511 [seagulls mewing] 280 00:15:31,597 --> 00:15:34,677 [Marvin Gaye] An artist, if he is truly an artist, 281 00:15:34,767 --> 00:15:37,097 is, um, only interested in one thing, 282 00:15:37,186 --> 00:15:40,556 and that is to wake up the minds of men. 283 00:15:41,190 --> 00:15:44,610 To have mankind and womankind realize 284 00:15:44,693 --> 00:15:50,203 that, um, there is something greater than what we see on the surface. 285 00:15:50,282 --> 00:15:55,202 So, that, um, is always reflected in a true artist's music 286 00:15:55,287 --> 00:15:57,077 or his works, his paintings. 287 00:15:57,581 --> 00:15:59,461 ♪ Want you, baby ♪ 288 00:16:01,251 --> 00:16:03,341 ♪ Did you hear me? Hey ♪ 289 00:16:05,089 --> 00:16:06,379 ♪ Oh baby ♪ 290 00:16:07,591 --> 00:16:09,551 ♪ I want you, baby ♪ 291 00:16:10,511 --> 00:16:12,261 ♪ Get it, woo! ♪ 292 00:16:12,805 --> 00:16:13,715 ♪ Did you hear me? ♪ 293 00:16:13,806 --> 00:16:16,176 [Marvin] We're going to the top right now. Go on to the top. 294 00:16:16,266 --> 00:16:17,556 Top, top. 295 00:16:19,061 --> 00:16:20,561 This is the vamp, vamp. 296 00:16:25,234 --> 00:16:28,364 Say, we'll probably do four of these, four of these. 297 00:16:29,989 --> 00:16:31,739 I like it. [vocalizes bass sound] 298 00:16:33,450 --> 00:16:37,660 ♪ Oh, I want you ♪ 299 00:16:38,664 --> 00:16:40,624 ♪ Want you, baby ♪ 300 00:16:40,708 --> 00:16:42,958 ♪ I want you ♪ 301 00:16:43,043 --> 00:16:45,463 [Fran] I understand how many things are made. 302 00:16:45,546 --> 00:16:50,336 Not that I could do it, but I know how you make a painting, you make a drawing. 303 00:16:50,426 --> 00:16:52,676 But I don't know how you write a song. 304 00:16:52,761 --> 00:16:55,061 [Marvin] All right, y'all, play it for me one time. 305 00:16:55,139 --> 00:16:56,809 ♪ Woo! ♪ 306 00:16:57,391 --> 00:16:58,771 [Fran] I know how you write lyrics, 307 00:16:58,851 --> 00:17:00,891 but I don't know how you write a piece of music. 308 00:17:00,978 --> 00:17:03,938 And I realize sometimes I have seen films 309 00:17:04,023 --> 00:17:09,153 of, um, huge concerts of very popular musicians. 310 00:17:09,236 --> 00:17:12,236 Um, and now they have all these cameras that go over there, 311 00:17:12,322 --> 00:17:14,782 and you can see the faces of the people, you know. 312 00:17:14,867 --> 00:17:19,457 And I'm always, when I see this, I'm very interested in the audience. 313 00:17:19,538 --> 00:17:20,908 And I see this, and I… 314 00:17:20,998 --> 00:17:25,128 You see how happy and grateful the people are for this music. 315 00:17:25,711 --> 00:17:28,421 You know, especially popular music of their youth. 316 00:17:28,505 --> 00:17:31,465 It doesn't matter whether the popular music of their youth 317 00:17:31,550 --> 00:17:36,810 was Frank Sinatra or Billy Joel or David Bowie or, you know, Q-Tip. 318 00:17:36,889 --> 00:17:39,929 This is, "Don't you remember when we went on our first date? 319 00:17:40,017 --> 00:17:41,437 This was the music. Remember?" 320 00:17:41,518 --> 00:17:43,768 This is centrally important to people. 321 00:17:44,563 --> 00:17:47,233 And they love the person who gave this to them. 322 00:17:47,316 --> 00:17:48,936 And the whole thing is a mystery to them. 323 00:17:49,443 --> 00:17:53,493 -No one is loved like musicians. -[Martin] Mm-hmm. 324 00:17:53,572 --> 00:17:56,452 You know, no arts… Musicians are loved by people. 325 00:17:56,533 --> 00:17:58,123 You know, really loved, 326 00:17:58,202 --> 00:18:03,752 because they give them the ability to express their emotions and their memories. 327 00:18:03,832 --> 00:18:05,752 There's no other form that does that. 328 00:18:05,834 --> 00:18:08,054 I mean, I really think that musicians, 329 00:18:08,128 --> 00:18:10,458 probably musicians and cooks, 330 00:18:10,547 --> 00:18:13,757 are responsible for the most pleasure in human life. 331 00:18:13,842 --> 00:18:16,552 You know. And so, like, 332 00:18:16,637 --> 00:18:19,637 Motown music, which was very popular when I was a teenager, 333 00:18:19,723 --> 00:18:22,483 um, whenever I hear it, I instantly become happier. 334 00:18:23,018 --> 00:18:25,018 There's just no question that it makes me happier. 335 00:18:25,104 --> 00:18:27,114 Now, this is true of almost nothing. 336 00:18:27,606 --> 00:18:31,526 Okay. Now, do I think, like, Motown is the greatest music ever made? 337 00:18:31,610 --> 00:18:32,990 You know, I don't. 338 00:18:33,070 --> 00:18:36,910 But if you asked me, "The second you hear this, do you feel happier?" I do. 339 00:18:37,491 --> 00:18:40,741 Okay? That's a very important thing to do for human beings. 340 00:18:40,828 --> 00:18:44,668 I mean, music makes people happier, um, and it doesn't harm them. 341 00:18:44,748 --> 00:18:48,998 Most things that make you feel better are harmful. You know, so it's very unusual. 342 00:18:49,086 --> 00:18:51,416 It's like a drug that doesn't kill you. 343 00:18:52,339 --> 00:18:58,219 There is a lot to be said for being in physical contact with other artists. 344 00:18:58,303 --> 00:18:59,183 Hanging around. 345 00:18:59,263 --> 00:19:01,893 -Hanging around is important. -[Martin] There was Max's-- 346 00:19:01,974 --> 00:19:04,734 Yeah, Max's and a million places. And a million places before that. 347 00:19:04,810 --> 00:19:06,940 And that was New York. That was Paris. That was… 348 00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:09,270 Different times, different cities. Um… 349 00:19:09,815 --> 00:19:11,015 But it's very important. 350 00:19:11,108 --> 00:19:14,738 And I remember when Michael Bloomberg first made that smoking law, um, 351 00:19:15,362 --> 00:19:17,782 and I would still, like, actually speak to him, 352 00:19:17,865 --> 00:19:24,075 I said, "Do you know, um, what artists sitting around in bars and restaurants, 353 00:19:24,163 --> 00:19:26,793 talking and drinking and smoking, is called?" 354 00:19:26,874 --> 00:19:30,094 He said, "What?" I said, "It's called the history of art." Okay? 355 00:19:30,169 --> 00:19:31,299 If you… Like just think. 356 00:19:31,378 --> 00:19:34,378 If Picasso had to get up, go outside to smoke… 357 00:19:34,464 --> 00:19:35,384 [Martin chuckles] 358 00:19:35,465 --> 00:19:36,965 …he might've missed something. 359 00:19:37,050 --> 00:19:41,850 Would you say a great athlete is on par with a great artist? 360 00:19:43,182 --> 00:19:46,812 Um, I would say that a great athlete is on par with a great dancer. 361 00:19:48,145 --> 00:19:49,605 But not a great writer. 362 00:19:51,356 --> 00:19:52,316 [Spike] I disagree. 363 00:19:52,816 --> 00:19:54,226 I know. I'm shocked. 364 00:19:54,318 --> 00:19:56,068 [laughter] 365 00:19:56,153 --> 00:19:57,493 I am flabbergasted. 366 00:19:57,571 --> 00:19:59,201 I would say, for me-- 367 00:19:59,281 --> 00:20:02,411 The only person who disagrees with me as much as you are my relatives. 368 00:20:02,492 --> 00:20:09,002 I wouldn't… Michael Jordan is on par with Sinatra, 369 00:20:09,082 --> 00:20:10,462 Michelangelo… 370 00:20:12,628 --> 00:20:15,048 Count Basie, Duke Ellington. 371 00:20:15,714 --> 00:20:18,224 He's on that level. And you can't… For me! 372 00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:22,300 He may be on that level in his sport. I'm not saying he isn't. I don't know. 373 00:20:22,387 --> 00:20:25,307 Everyone calls him the greatest basketball player. I believe you. 374 00:20:25,390 --> 00:20:27,770 I'm not gonna argue who's the greatest player. 375 00:20:27,851 --> 00:20:30,901 But it's not he's just a great, but what the man… I mean… 376 00:20:31,396 --> 00:20:38,316 Whatever field you work at, when you go to that level, it's like the pantheon. 377 00:20:38,403 --> 00:20:40,823 Of course, I agree, they're the highest level. 378 00:20:40,906 --> 00:20:45,826 However, 40 years after he dies, no one's gonna listen to a Michael Jordan record 379 00:20:45,911 --> 00:20:47,701 like you can a Duke Ellington record. 380 00:20:47,788 --> 00:20:50,618 You can always have Duke Ellington, because there's a, 381 00:20:50,707 --> 00:20:52,957 not just a record in the sense of a vinyl record, 382 00:20:53,043 --> 00:20:54,543 there is a record of his work. 383 00:20:54,628 --> 00:20:58,718 The work is the same. Michael Jordan doesn't continue to play basketball. 384 00:20:58,799 --> 00:21:00,469 He doesn't leave a permanent record. 385 00:21:00,550 --> 00:21:03,010 Do you watch old Michael Jordan basketball games? 386 00:21:03,095 --> 00:21:05,055 -You can. -[Fran] I know you can. 387 00:21:05,138 --> 00:21:07,218 Okay? I know you may. 388 00:21:07,307 --> 00:21:08,887 -[Spike laughs] -But do you? 389 00:21:08,976 --> 00:21:11,396 Isn't part of the excitement how the game ends? 390 00:21:11,895 --> 00:21:13,015 -Yes, but-- -You already know. 391 00:21:13,105 --> 00:21:13,975 But after… 392 00:21:14,481 --> 00:21:17,611 Does Picasso still paint? Is he still painting? 393 00:21:17,693 --> 00:21:20,703 No, but the pictures we have are the same pictures that he painted. 394 00:21:21,780 --> 00:21:24,070 -What do you mean? -There's no element of suspense. 395 00:21:24,157 --> 00:21:28,247 You don't say, "How does this come out?" That's not why you look at a Picasso. 396 00:21:28,328 --> 00:21:31,498 Isn't part of the reason you watch a basketball game to see who wins? 397 00:21:31,581 --> 00:21:35,211 If you already know who wins, Michael Jordan already won, do you watch it again? 398 00:21:35,294 --> 00:21:38,764 Yes. You're more like, "How the fuck did he do that?" 399 00:21:38,839 --> 00:21:41,799 Okay. Well, I suppose that's one way of looking at it. 400 00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:47,886 [dramatic music playing] 401 00:22:09,661 --> 00:22:11,501 [man 1] We move to the Femmes d'Alger. 402 00:22:11,580 --> 00:22:13,580 Picasso's Femmes d'Alger. Wonderful painting. 403 00:22:13,665 --> 00:22:16,955 Where do we open this? $100 million to open it. 100 million. 404 00:22:17,044 --> 00:22:18,424 105 million. 405 00:22:18,503 --> 00:22:22,303 [man 2] Great Picasso, Nude, Green Leaves and Bust from 1932. 406 00:22:22,382 --> 00:22:24,512 $58 million to start us. 407 00:22:24,593 --> 00:22:29,013 Why not? 129 million. Who will give me 130? 47 might do it. 408 00:22:29,097 --> 00:22:31,977 At $92 million. 93 million. 409 00:22:32,059 --> 00:22:35,559 Wait, wait, wait. 147, you see? 147. 410 00:22:35,645 --> 00:22:38,395 93 million. Against you here. Against you here. 411 00:22:38,482 --> 00:22:41,032 Don't wait. 147, I'll sell it against you. 412 00:22:41,109 --> 00:22:46,619 $95 million. Last chance at 95. 95 million. 413 00:22:48,533 --> 00:22:52,543 Valiant bidding. Thank you so much. At $160 million, ladies and gentlemen. 414 00:22:52,621 --> 00:22:57,501 Fair warning. Picasso's Femmes d'Alger, selling it here at Christie's. 415 00:22:57,584 --> 00:22:59,044 $160 million. 416 00:22:59,127 --> 00:23:01,837 -Right. It's yours, sold. -[applause] 417 00:23:02,923 --> 00:23:06,893 You think, in terms of our culture now, any of the art forms, 418 00:23:06,968 --> 00:23:11,058 which is the most, I don't know, wanting at this point? 419 00:23:11,932 --> 00:23:13,562 -You mean which is the worst? -Yeah. 420 00:23:13,642 --> 00:23:15,062 -Yeah. -[he laughs] 421 00:23:15,143 --> 00:23:17,313 [Martin continues laughing] 422 00:23:17,396 --> 00:23:18,556 -[Martin] Yeah. -Yeah. 423 00:23:18,647 --> 00:23:21,727 -It's a tough field. Um… -Yeah, no, it's hard. It's hard. 424 00:23:22,567 --> 00:23:26,107 Uh, which has the most opportunity for chicanery? 425 00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:28,566 I would say, um, the visual arts. 426 00:23:29,074 --> 00:23:31,544 You know, or what are called the visual arts. 427 00:23:31,618 --> 00:23:32,738 You know, um… 428 00:23:32,828 --> 00:23:37,078 But I'm certainly, one of the few things, I'm not alone in thinking that, you know. 429 00:23:37,165 --> 00:23:40,035 I think there's wide agreement on this. 430 00:23:40,127 --> 00:23:41,417 It's quite a racket. 431 00:23:42,045 --> 00:23:44,125 -Yeah. Yeah. -[audience laughs] 432 00:23:44,214 --> 00:23:46,304 -[Fran] Do you agree? -I do agree, but the… 433 00:23:46,383 --> 00:23:50,303 I keep thinking of the prices and the extraordinary… Yeah, the racket. 434 00:23:50,387 --> 00:23:52,847 -That's what we hear about. The prices. -The prices. 435 00:23:52,931 --> 00:23:59,061 I mean, if you go to an auction, um, out comes the Picasso, dead silence. 436 00:24:00,230 --> 00:24:03,150 Once the hammer comes down on the price, applause. 437 00:24:03,817 --> 00:24:07,357 Okay? So we live in a world where they applaud the price but not the Picasso. 438 00:24:07,446 --> 00:24:08,486 I rest my case. 439 00:24:08,572 --> 00:24:12,912 [laughter and applause] 440 00:24:12,993 --> 00:24:14,623 Okay? So, I mean… 441 00:24:14,703 --> 00:24:18,083 They applaud the price. They should applaud when the Picasso comes out. 442 00:24:18,165 --> 00:24:20,245 -I know. -"Isn't he good at painting?" 443 00:24:20,333 --> 00:24:22,793 [Martin laughs] 444 00:24:22,878 --> 00:24:24,838 Not, "Aren't you good at buying?" 445 00:24:26,298 --> 00:24:29,888 [uptempo jazz music] 446 00:24:40,604 --> 00:24:41,694 Zzzap! 447 00:24:56,453 --> 00:24:59,003 [Fran] I used to go often to jazz clubs when I was younger, 448 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,120 when there were a lot of great living jazz musicians. 449 00:25:01,208 --> 00:25:02,038 [Spike] Right. 450 00:25:02,125 --> 00:25:06,625 I probably saw every great jazz musician alive during my lifetime. 451 00:25:06,713 --> 00:25:08,923 -Numerous times. -Who was your favorite? 452 00:25:09,007 --> 00:25:11,337 -Mingus, I would say. -Charlie Mingus? 453 00:25:11,426 --> 00:25:12,796 I know him quite well. 454 00:25:12,886 --> 00:25:14,386 [man] What's the gun for? 455 00:25:15,305 --> 00:25:19,175 Someone robbed me. They broke in and took everything when I moved in the first day. 456 00:25:24,189 --> 00:25:25,359 [man] Who robbed you? 457 00:25:26,399 --> 00:25:27,359 Hmm. 458 00:25:27,442 --> 00:25:29,532 Friends or enemies? I have no idea. 459 00:25:30,111 --> 00:25:33,491 It had to be a friend, because they went right to my jewel box. 460 00:25:34,699 --> 00:25:38,699 Had to be someone who knew me. Someone, not a friend, but someone close. 461 00:25:41,248 --> 00:25:43,078 [Fran] He once shot himself in the foot, 462 00:25:43,166 --> 00:25:46,496 because his wife, who at that time was his girlfriend, broke up with him. 463 00:25:46,586 --> 00:25:49,836 So he shot himself in the foot and then walked, bleeding, 464 00:25:49,923 --> 00:25:52,803 up the stairs of her apartment to show what she'd done to him. 465 00:25:52,884 --> 00:25:54,724 He, like, deliberately shot himself in the foot. 466 00:25:54,803 --> 00:25:55,893 [gunshot] 467 00:25:56,471 --> 00:26:01,101 I was friends with Charles, because his wife, um, owned the magazine. 468 00:26:01,184 --> 00:26:03,484 Newspaper. They used to call them underground newspapers. 469 00:26:03,562 --> 00:26:06,862 Owned the first, um, magazine, in a way, 470 00:26:06,940 --> 00:26:10,360 it was a quarter fold newspaper, that I worked for when I was, like, 19. 471 00:26:10,443 --> 00:26:12,493 She owned it. Um, and that's how I knew him. 472 00:26:12,571 --> 00:26:13,821 [Charles] Two, three, four. 473 00:26:13,905 --> 00:26:19,615 -[jazz music plays] -[applause] 474 00:26:24,583 --> 00:26:27,843 [Fran] I mean, he was very volatile. Like really volatile. 475 00:26:27,919 --> 00:26:31,209 He once got mad at me and in the middle of a set at the Vanguard, 476 00:26:31,298 --> 00:26:34,508 when he saw me, jumped off the bandstand, ran up the stairs… 477 00:26:34,593 --> 00:26:38,143 And he was fat. He was not, like, an athletic guy. 478 00:26:38,221 --> 00:26:42,481 And, you know, I thought he was old. He was probably in his late forties. 479 00:26:42,559 --> 00:26:46,189 But I was a young kid. I was, like, 19. But not a good runner. 480 00:26:46,271 --> 00:26:50,821 And he, like, ran after me, yelling at me, all the way down Seventh Avenue, 481 00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:52,610 'till almost we got to Canal Street, 482 00:26:52,694 --> 00:26:56,494 and then finally I could not run anymore, and I, like, fell into the street. 483 00:26:56,990 --> 00:26:59,740 And then he, by the way, he's supposed to be playing. 484 00:26:59,826 --> 00:27:02,406 The rest of the band is on the bandstand at the Vanguard, 485 00:27:02,495 --> 00:27:04,455 which is now, like, 20 blocks uptown. 486 00:27:04,539 --> 00:27:07,169 And I fell down like this, and he fell down, 487 00:27:07,250 --> 00:27:10,460 and then he sat down, and he looked at me. He goes, "Wanna go eat?" 488 00:27:12,505 --> 00:27:13,715 So I pointed out to him, 489 00:27:13,798 --> 00:27:17,548 "Well, you're in the middle of a set, and people went to see you." 490 00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:23,266 Um, he was such a famous eater that to walk through Chinatown with Charles 491 00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:26,560 was to have chefs come out of basements applauding him. 492 00:27:26,645 --> 00:27:29,395 -[Martin laughs] -This endeared him to my mother. 493 00:27:29,481 --> 00:27:31,321 He came to my parents' house for Thanksgiving. 494 00:27:31,399 --> 00:27:32,229 -[Spike] Yeah? -Yes. 495 00:27:32,317 --> 00:27:34,607 My mother loved him. He was such a good eater. 496 00:27:34,694 --> 00:27:36,074 [laughter] 497 00:27:36,154 --> 00:27:38,534 She said, "That Charles, he's such a good eater. 498 00:27:38,615 --> 00:27:41,025 Not only did he eat so many portions, but afterward, 499 00:27:41,117 --> 00:27:43,327 he came in the kitchen and finished the turkey." 500 00:27:43,411 --> 00:27:44,791 [laughter] 501 00:27:44,871 --> 00:27:48,381 Most people see him as a musical genius. My mother saw him as a great eater. 502 00:27:49,793 --> 00:27:52,093 -I had breakfast once with Duke Ellington. -Yes? 503 00:27:52,170 --> 00:27:54,840 -With Charles, and-- -Where was this at? 504 00:27:54,923 --> 00:27:57,473 Reuben's, which used to be an all-night restaurant, 505 00:27:57,550 --> 00:28:00,220 which used to be on 58th and Fifth Avenue. 506 00:28:00,303 --> 00:28:05,733 And Duke Ellington is the only person I ever saw Charles Mingus defer to. 507 00:28:06,643 --> 00:28:11,363 Charles, when he was a young guy, played in Duke Ellington's band, and was fired. 508 00:28:12,107 --> 00:28:16,777 And Charles was a very, um, arrogant person. 509 00:28:16,861 --> 00:28:19,281 Um, he really didn't want people to talk to him. 510 00:28:19,364 --> 00:28:21,574 Um, he had a lot of contempt for most people. 511 00:28:21,658 --> 00:28:25,868 Um, and the only person I ever saw him defer to was Duke Ellington. 512 00:28:25,954 --> 00:28:27,964 But he was so deferential to Duke Ellington 513 00:28:28,039 --> 00:28:29,329 that he hardly would look at him. 514 00:28:29,874 --> 00:28:32,964 And Duke Ellington was yelling at him, "Charles!" 515 00:28:33,044 --> 00:28:37,094 "Oh, sorry, Duke." It was like a completely different person. 516 00:28:37,173 --> 00:28:39,933 Like, "What happened to Charles?" You know? 517 00:28:40,009 --> 00:28:42,349 So everyone has someone like that in their lives, 518 00:28:42,429 --> 00:28:47,479 no matter how, you know, arrogant they may be or how great they may be. 519 00:28:48,810 --> 00:28:51,810 I mean Charles, in my opinion, was a great artist, 520 00:28:51,896 --> 00:28:54,726 but in Charles's opinion, Duke Ellington, more important. 521 00:28:54,816 --> 00:29:00,736 [gentle jazz music] 522 00:29:09,873 --> 00:29:13,923 [man] If you admire somebody's work, you absorb a certain amount of it. 523 00:29:14,794 --> 00:29:18,924 It's getting to the point now where the modern, contemporary composer 524 00:29:19,007 --> 00:29:25,007 and the guy who's supposed to be a, a modern jazz composer, 525 00:29:25,096 --> 00:29:28,056 uh, they all come out of the same conservatories. 526 00:29:28,141 --> 00:29:28,981 Exactly. 527 00:29:29,058 --> 00:29:32,308 And, uh, it's very difficult to find a place to draw the line. 528 00:29:32,395 --> 00:29:35,145 Well, you were certainly one of the pioneers in that. 529 00:29:35,231 --> 00:29:37,151 Oh yeah, but I didn't come out of a conservatory. 530 00:29:37,233 --> 00:29:41,993 No, but you were one of the first people who wrote so-called symphonic jazz. 531 00:29:42,071 --> 00:29:45,031 I had a conservatory in the Capitol Theater. 532 00:29:45,116 --> 00:29:46,616 That's right. Exactly. 533 00:29:46,701 --> 00:29:48,661 Listen to the symphony before the picture. 534 00:29:48,745 --> 00:29:50,955 Maybe that's really the difference between us. 535 00:29:51,039 --> 00:29:54,749 That you wrote symphonic jazz, and I wrote jazz symphonies. 536 00:29:54,834 --> 00:29:56,174 [laughter] 537 00:29:56,252 --> 00:29:57,922 -Love you, man. -Something like that. 538 00:29:59,130 --> 00:30:04,050 ["La Dolce Vita (Finale)" plays] 539 00:30:10,475 --> 00:30:12,385 [Fran] Did you see my Calder cuff links? 540 00:30:12,477 --> 00:30:16,687 These were lent to me by Sandy Rower, who is the grandson of Alexander Calder, 541 00:30:16,773 --> 00:30:18,823 who made these with his hands. 542 00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:23,860 Not designed a line of cuff links like artists do now. He made them. 543 00:30:23,947 --> 00:30:27,697 He must have made them for himself, Calder, you know? I mean… 544 00:30:27,784 --> 00:30:31,044 He did not make them for Fran. Um, he made a lot of jewelry. 545 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,120 There was a show at the Met just of Calder's jewelry 546 00:30:34,207 --> 00:30:35,537 and it was fantastic. 547 00:30:35,625 --> 00:30:38,585 There's a very wonderful biography of Calder. 548 00:30:38,670 --> 00:30:41,590 I don't know. His sister, when he was, like, seven years old 549 00:30:41,673 --> 00:30:45,093 gave him a pair of pliers for Christmas, and he writes about this. 550 00:30:45,176 --> 00:30:48,716 "This is the greatest Christmas of my life. I got a pair of pliers!" 551 00:30:48,805 --> 00:30:51,175 -[Martin] That's great. -And he used them to make these. 552 00:30:51,266 --> 00:30:53,886 And I think these may have been made with the same pair of pliers. 553 00:30:53,977 --> 00:30:57,057 -[Martin] That's amazing. -I mean, I just think they're spectacular.