1 00:00:08,112 --> 00:00:09,572 The clowning was relaxation for me. 2 00:00:09,613 --> 00:00:13,743 I enjoyed entertaining kids. Like some people are ... 3 00:00:13,784 --> 00:00:15,244 You know they... 4 00:00:15,286 --> 00:00:16,495 They unwind in different ways, 5 00:00:16,537 --> 00:00:18,414 either going out drinking or that. 6 00:00:18,456 --> 00:00:21,250 I could put on clown makeup, and I was relaxed, 7 00:00:21,292 --> 00:00:24,420 and I enjoyed doing it. It was twice. 8 00:00:24,462 --> 00:00:26,005 It was only twice a month that I did it. 9 00:00:26,047 --> 00:00:29,467 This was not used then for a lure to draw kids to you. 10 00:00:30,259 --> 00:00:33,054 No. would visit different hospitals 11 00:00:33,679 --> 00:00:35,931 and entertain the children there, 12 00:00:35,973 --> 00:00:37,933 and we didn’t entertain them with handcuffs 13 00:00:37,975 --> 00:00:41,312 or anything like that. All we used was balloon animals 14 00:00:41,353 --> 00:00:42,938 and small toys and stuff like that. 15 00:00:42,980 --> 00:00:45,691 But we also did parades, and in the summertime, 16 00:00:45,733 --> 00:00:46,859 like on Fourth of July, 17 00:00:46,901 --> 00:00:49,779 I used to be in four parades in one day. 18 00:00:49,820 --> 00:00:52,573 I always told people, when I got into clown makeup, 19 00:00:52,615 --> 00:00:54,075 I regressed into childhood. 20 00:00:54,116 --> 00:00:57,787 It was fun being a clown because you could be yourself 21 00:00:57,828 --> 00:01:00,039 or just let yourself go and act a fool. 22 00:01:00,081 --> 00:01:03,167 You could be slapstick and funny and have a good time. 23 00:01:03,626 --> 00:01:05,836 That’s why I always enjoyed clowning. 24 00:01:05,878 --> 00:01:09,673 Clowning has taken a bad name, right, 25 00:01:10,299 --> 00:01:12,468 because of what they’ve used in my case. 26 00:01:54,009 --> 00:01:56,846 Gacy was superconfident when we first started 27 00:01:56,887 --> 00:02:00,725 our investigation up until the last maybe 2 1/2 days. 28 00:02:01,559 --> 00:02:02,727 It seemed like months, 29 00:02:02,768 --> 00:02:04,603 but it was only a 10-day surveillance, 30 00:02:04,645 --> 00:02:05,938 and it was a cat-and-mouse game 31 00:02:05,980 --> 00:02:08,357 between the surveillance team and Gacy. 32 00:02:09,233 --> 00:02:11,402 At one point, we were in a restaurant, 33 00:02:11,444 --> 00:02:13,779 and he was telling me he volunteered as a clown, 34 00:02:14,196 --> 00:02:17,074 and he said to me, "Dave, if you’re in a parade 35 00:02:17,116 --> 00:02:18,617 and you’re dressed like a clown, 36 00:02:18,659 --> 00:02:20,327 if you see a nice looking gal," 37 00:02:20,369 --> 00:02:21,829 he says, "You can put your arm around her 38 00:02:21,871 --> 00:02:25,416 and get a little feel." And he says, "You know, Dave, 39 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:27,918 clowns can get away with murder." 40 00:02:28,627 --> 00:02:31,505 And the hair on the back of my head just stood up 41 00:02:31,547 --> 00:02:32,965 because he was so confident 42 00:02:33,007 --> 00:02:35,551 that he would get out of this crisis he was in. 43 00:02:43,809 --> 00:02:47,730 Gacy appeared to be an average Joe. 44 00:02:47,772 --> 00:02:51,192 He didn’t look sinister. Just an average-looking guy, 45 00:02:51,233 --> 00:02:54,695 and I remember thinking, "Could this guy really be a monster? 46 00:02:54,737 --> 00:02:56,614 Could he have killed Robert Piest?" 47 00:02:57,448 --> 00:03:02,203 The evidence was that Piest left work to meet with Gacy 48 00:03:02,244 --> 00:03:03,662 to talk about a job, 49 00:03:03,704 --> 00:03:07,208 so Gacy was thought to be one of the last people 50 00:03:07,249 --> 00:03:08,959 to have seen Rob Piest. 51 00:03:09,794 --> 00:03:12,546 When Gacy realized that we were seeking 52 00:03:12,588 --> 00:03:13,881 a second search warrant, 53 00:03:13,923 --> 00:03:16,801 he went so fast from being superconfident 54 00:03:16,842 --> 00:03:18,719 to really having nothing to live for, 55 00:03:19,136 --> 00:03:21,555 and we knew he was about ready to break. 56 00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:25,434 Now, the first search warrant, 57 00:03:25,476 --> 00:03:30,356 a police officer had opened the crawl space. 58 00:03:30,398 --> 00:03:31,941 It was a big crawl space. 59 00:03:31,982 --> 00:03:34,485 He looked down there, didn’t see anything. 60 00:03:35,695 --> 00:03:36,987 But then it became evident 61 00:03:37,029 --> 00:03:39,198 that there might be more people missing, 62 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,826 and one of the officers when he was in the house, 63 00:03:41,867 --> 00:03:43,452 he said, 64 00:03:43,494 --> 00:03:46,122 he’d smelled this real putrid smell coming through the vents. 65 00:03:46,163 --> 00:03:49,250 So once we went and did the second search warrant, 66 00:03:49,291 --> 00:03:50,543 we’d searched everywhere else, 67 00:03:50,584 --> 00:03:52,503 so we decided, "Well, let’s dig." 68 00:03:52,545 --> 00:03:56,841 All right. Is there a flashlight up there? 69 00:03:59,969 --> 00:04:04,807 I was standing, holding a flashlight over the crawl space 70 00:04:04,849 --> 00:04:07,017 for one of the evidence technicians, 71 00:04:07,518 --> 00:04:09,437 and he said, "I think we have something," 72 00:04:09,478 --> 00:04:11,647 and so we started digging some more, 73 00:04:11,689 --> 00:04:15,860 and then we found a left femur with no flesh on it. 74 00:04:19,947 --> 00:04:23,534 So we kept digging, found another left femur. 75 00:04:24,201 --> 00:04:25,870 Nobody has two left femurs, 76 00:04:25,911 --> 00:04:27,663 and he kept digging and found a third one, 77 00:04:27,705 --> 00:04:31,459 so we knew we had a lot more there than we thought. 78 00:04:36,338 --> 00:04:37,840 Everybody stopped. 79 00:04:37,882 --> 00:04:39,842 At that point, when we discovered the initial bones, 80 00:04:39,884 --> 00:04:41,677 everybody stopped. We regrouped. 81 00:04:41,719 --> 00:04:44,096 "All right. Let’s see. What’s the next step?" 82 00:04:46,557 --> 00:04:49,185 When I got to the scene on Summerdale, 83 00:04:49,769 --> 00:04:52,229 the medical examiner, Robert Stein, was there, 84 00:04:52,980 --> 00:04:56,484 and I realized that if Stein was on the scene 85 00:04:56,942 --> 00:04:59,487 in the middle of the night, this had to be big. 86 00:05:00,654 --> 00:05:02,823 In Des Plaines, Illinois, near Chicago, 87 00:05:03,324 --> 00:05:07,078 a man who served time in prison for sex crimes was let out. 88 00:05:07,703 --> 00:05:11,165 Today, they found the bodies of at least three young boys 89 00:05:11,207 --> 00:05:12,666 buried under his house. 90 00:05:12,708 --> 00:05:15,211 It’s suspected because of the looks of the area 91 00:05:15,252 --> 00:05:17,046 down in the crawl space, 92 00:05:17,546 --> 00:05:20,966 there are some other mounds and appears to be more there. 93 00:05:22,093 --> 00:05:23,969 This should not have happened. 94 00:05:24,637 --> 00:05:28,057 These young men and boys should still be alive today 95 00:05:28,099 --> 00:05:31,685 had somebody paid any attention to the warning signs. 96 00:05:33,229 --> 00:05:35,564 Gacy is a 36-year-old building contractor 97 00:05:35,606 --> 00:05:37,733 who reportedly dressed like a clown to entertain 98 00:05:37,775 --> 00:05:39,235 at children’s parties. 99 00:05:39,276 --> 00:05:41,946 He once went to prison for a sex offense in Iowa. 100 00:05:43,864 --> 00:05:46,659 It wasn’t very long before we realized 101 00:05:46,701 --> 00:05:48,744 that the house on Summerdale 102 00:05:48,786 --> 00:05:53,207 was not the only place we should look for leads as to Gacy. 103 00:05:53,666 --> 00:05:56,585 I reported on Gacy’s time in Iowa 104 00:05:56,627 --> 00:05:58,713 where he was arrested for sodomy. 105 00:05:58,754 --> 00:06:01,590 The picture that was painted was very, very similar 106 00:06:01,632 --> 00:06:03,467 to what was happening here. 107 00:06:04,969 --> 00:06:08,013 They should have been able to see what happened in Iowa. 108 00:06:09,598 --> 00:06:10,766 On a historical note, 109 00:06:10,808 --> 00:06:13,018 your Iowa conviction goes back to ... 110 00:06:13,060 --> 00:06:14,687 What year was that? 111 00:06:14,729 --> 00:06:17,189 1968. ’68. And what was ... 112 00:06:17,231 --> 00:06:20,109 Just in a nutshell, without getting in too deeply, 113 00:06:20,151 --> 00:06:23,654 what was the basis of the Iowa conviction? 114 00:06:24,655 --> 00:06:26,407 The basis ... It was a sodomy conviction. 115 00:06:26,449 --> 00:06:27,908 It’s the only thing 116 00:06:27,950 --> 00:06:30,411 I ever was sentenced to was the sodomy conviction. 117 00:06:30,453 --> 00:06:33,539 They’re claiming that the state representative’s son, 118 00:06:33,581 --> 00:06:35,291 who was on the other party, 119 00:06:36,083 --> 00:06:38,836 he claims that he was sexually abused by me, 120 00:06:39,754 --> 00:06:41,964 and in essence, he was blackmailing me for it. 121 00:06:42,006 --> 00:06:45,634 Now, what it boils down to is oral copulation, 122 00:06:46,552 --> 00:06:48,637 and it was consensual. 123 00:06:52,975 --> 00:06:56,020 I’m Karen Kuzma. My brother was John Wayne Gacy. 124 00:06:57,104 --> 00:07:01,650 The John I knew was good. He was kind. 125 00:07:01,692 --> 00:07:05,738 He was hardworking. He did love family. 126 00:07:07,740 --> 00:07:10,493 I keep trying to put a point in time 127 00:07:10,868 --> 00:07:12,745 when I saw a big change in him, 128 00:07:13,537 --> 00:07:17,541 and in Iowa was where the big change took place. 129 00:07:20,336 --> 00:07:24,215 When he moved to Iowa, it’s like there was a different John. 130 00:07:32,139 --> 00:07:36,936 John moved because he met and married his first wife, Marlynn. 131 00:07:39,188 --> 00:07:44,694 Her father had Kentucky Fried Chicken businesses in Iowa. 132 00:07:46,070 --> 00:07:49,824 He wanted John to come on to help him to manage them. 133 00:07:51,575 --> 00:07:55,371 His father-in-law was trying to build something up for his kids, 134 00:07:55,413 --> 00:07:58,749 and that’s why he wanted John to be in there with him 135 00:07:58,791 --> 00:08:01,877 to learn the business so he could carry it on. 136 00:08:05,423 --> 00:08:08,384 When John got there in Iowa, 137 00:08:08,426 --> 00:08:10,761 then he started with this Jaycee chapter. 138 00:08:11,220 --> 00:08:13,347 Gacy was a very prominent member 139 00:08:13,389 --> 00:08:16,726 of the Waterloo Junior Chamber of Commerce, 140 00:08:16,767 --> 00:08:18,644 known as the Jaycees. 141 00:08:20,604 --> 00:08:24,734 These were young business people priming themselves 142 00:08:24,775 --> 00:08:28,446 to take leadership in the business community, 143 00:08:28,487 --> 00:08:32,283 which translated into the leadership in Waterloo. 144 00:08:33,576 --> 00:08:35,036 Those business people 145 00:08:35,536 --> 00:08:38,748 have always had the ear of the authorities and the mayor 146 00:08:38,789 --> 00:08:42,376 and in a very limited sense, ruled the town. 147 00:08:43,002 --> 00:08:47,548 John was a recruiter, probably their best recruiter 148 00:08:47,590 --> 00:08:49,383 from what the Jaycees said. 149 00:08:50,509 --> 00:08:54,805 He got into anything that would bring him more contacts, 150 00:08:54,847 --> 00:08:56,724 especially if he could get a foot up. 151 00:08:57,516 --> 00:09:00,853 Gacy pretty much became the man in the community, 152 00:09:01,312 --> 00:09:03,773 so he was one of their prime movers, 153 00:09:03,814 --> 00:09:05,316 one of their big leaders. 154 00:09:05,816 --> 00:09:09,195 I moved to Waterloo, Iowa. I was honored as man of the year 155 00:09:09,236 --> 00:09:12,656 because besides working full-time I also ... 156 00:09:13,282 --> 00:09:15,117 I was the chaplain for the Jaycees, 157 00:09:15,159 --> 00:09:17,578 and I also ran the membership campaign, 158 00:09:17,620 --> 00:09:19,163 and of course we used pornography. 159 00:09:19,872 --> 00:09:23,292 We had stag shows, and that’s how we increased the membership 160 00:09:23,334 --> 00:09:27,963 from 150 to 400 members in that Jaycee chapter. 161 00:09:28,005 --> 00:09:29,882 We were dealing with porno films, 162 00:09:29,924 --> 00:09:32,802 and we had the girls set up in a room and that. 163 00:09:33,511 --> 00:09:35,721 So it was the thing to do. 164 00:09:35,763 --> 00:09:38,015 We were boosting membership from it, 165 00:09:38,474 --> 00:09:40,184 so nobody said a word about it. 166 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:52,029 Gacy was attempting to get a cadre of people to engage 167 00:09:52,071 --> 00:09:55,449 in the same kind of activity that he was engaged in. 168 00:09:56,283 --> 00:09:59,495 What Gacy was doing is saying, "We’re sexual beings. 169 00:09:59,537 --> 00:10:02,164 We enjoy it, so let’s revel in it," 170 00:10:04,041 --> 00:10:05,376 and on certain nights, 171 00:10:05,418 --> 00:10:07,837 after you’ve had a certain number of beers, 172 00:10:07,878 --> 00:10:09,714 and you’ve watched some stag films, 173 00:10:10,089 --> 00:10:14,760 maybe that why not sort of an attitude. 174 00:10:15,886 --> 00:10:17,596 He wanted this to be the norm. 175 00:10:18,431 --> 00:10:22,226 Everybody is involved in sexual activity outside the marriage, 176 00:10:22,727 --> 00:10:25,271 so why are you looking at me? 177 00:10:28,941 --> 00:10:31,318 We went to visit John in Iowa. 178 00:10:32,028 --> 00:10:35,197 When we got there, he said, "I’ve got some plans for us. 179 00:10:36,657 --> 00:10:40,119 I’m a member of the Jaycees, and I’ve got to go this party." 180 00:10:40,953 --> 00:10:45,666 So we went, and at the end of the evening, he said, 181 00:10:46,709 --> 00:10:49,253 "I’m not going to be going home with y’all." 182 00:10:50,421 --> 00:10:52,965 When we were going to get into the car, 183 00:10:53,466 --> 00:10:55,259 it wasn’t Marlynn and John. 184 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:01,223 It was her and another guy. She brought him home instead, 185 00:11:01,265 --> 00:11:05,853 and I guess John went with his wife. 186 00:11:08,314 --> 00:11:10,399 The next morning, John came home, 187 00:11:10,441 --> 00:11:13,361 and this guy left right about the same time, 188 00:11:13,402 --> 00:11:17,448 so I stepped outside with John, and I told him, 189 00:11:17,490 --> 00:11:18,908 "I cannot believe 190 00:11:18,949 --> 00:11:23,037 that you put us in that type of awkward situation. 191 00:11:23,454 --> 00:11:26,499 Ron and I are packing up, and we’re leaving." 192 00:11:28,292 --> 00:11:32,254 I was really, really upset. I’m not a prude. 193 00:11:32,296 --> 00:11:34,465 I mean, if you’re going to do something like that, 194 00:11:34,507 --> 00:11:35,966 do it on your own time. 195 00:11:36,008 --> 00:11:38,844 Don’t invite me and throw it in my face. 196 00:11:39,553 --> 00:11:42,932 When I look back at some of that switching partners 197 00:11:42,973 --> 00:11:45,601 and all this craziness, I wonder 198 00:11:45,643 --> 00:11:49,563 if that wasn’t a precursor to all this other stuff. 199 00:11:50,231 --> 00:11:53,484 John Gacy was a very dominant personality, 200 00:11:53,526 --> 00:11:56,987 so people did what he wanted them to do. 201 00:11:58,739 --> 00:12:04,036 He used them as objects and toys for his sexual gratification. 202 00:12:20,970 --> 00:12:23,889 John was married, had two children, 203 00:12:24,557 --> 00:12:28,978 and we received a call that he had been arrested for sodomy. 204 00:12:35,317 --> 00:12:37,528 It was devastating to my father at that point 205 00:12:37,570 --> 00:12:40,823 because he thought John had his act together, 206 00:12:41,282 --> 00:12:43,367 and then he gets arrested. 207 00:12:45,119 --> 00:12:51,417 We had a report that he had coerced a young man, 208 00:12:52,334 --> 00:12:58,007 a minor, Don Voorhees, to commit a sex act with him. 209 00:12:59,550 --> 00:13:02,678 He was the son of a state representative in Iowa, 210 00:13:03,345 --> 00:13:08,309 and I thought he was quite brave as a young man to come forward 211 00:13:08,350 --> 00:13:11,479 and tell his story to the police. 212 00:13:13,647 --> 00:13:15,399 We had it investigated, 213 00:13:15,441 --> 00:13:19,945 and we brought a charge of sodomy against John Gacy. 214 00:13:21,364 --> 00:13:26,077 This was a law that had direct application to mostly men 215 00:13:26,577 --> 00:13:33,125 who required young people to commit acts of sex on them 216 00:13:33,542 --> 00:13:37,755 or be the recipient of those sex acts themselves. 217 00:13:38,422 --> 00:13:40,841 At the time he was arrested for sodomy 218 00:13:40,883 --> 00:13:43,177 of the 16-year-old youth in Iowa, 219 00:13:43,219 --> 00:13:47,139 Gacy was running for president of the Jaycees, 220 00:13:47,181 --> 00:13:49,058 the Chamber of Commerce. 221 00:13:50,059 --> 00:13:52,269 He did lots of inspirational writing for them 222 00:13:52,311 --> 00:13:54,355 about how to manipulate people, 223 00:13:54,397 --> 00:13:58,150 how to inject your ideas into other people’s minds. 224 00:13:58,818 --> 00:14:01,362 He believed he could talk his way out of pretty much anything, 225 00:14:01,404 --> 00:14:05,116 and he was successful at it on many occasions. 226 00:14:05,950 --> 00:14:07,535 It wasn’t just Donald Voorhees 227 00:14:07,576 --> 00:14:10,079 that had made complaints against Gacy in Iowa. 228 00:14:10,579 --> 00:14:15,084 When he was able to get these young boys back into the house, 229 00:14:15,126 --> 00:14:20,131 all he had to do was to get them into a position 230 00:14:20,172 --> 00:14:21,841 where they’re immobilized, 231 00:14:21,882 --> 00:14:24,218 and then he took advantage of them. 232 00:14:24,260 --> 00:14:26,554 Gacy thought that he was above the law. 233 00:14:26,595 --> 00:14:30,266 He obviously thought that nobody would ever believe 234 00:14:30,307 --> 00:14:32,601 somebody else’s claim against him. 235 00:14:33,602 --> 00:14:34,812 At the time 236 00:14:34,854 --> 00:14:38,107 this young individual made the charge at me, 237 00:14:38,149 --> 00:14:40,234 he was blackmailing me. He wanted more and more money. 238 00:14:40,276 --> 00:14:41,902 He said, "Look. I gave you a blowjob. 239 00:14:41,944 --> 00:14:45,573 Now you got to pay for this." I said, "Go see your father." 240 00:14:45,614 --> 00:14:47,783 He wasn’t getting along with his father, 241 00:14:48,242 --> 00:14:50,119 but they came down heavy on me. 242 00:14:51,495 --> 00:14:54,957 John didn’t feel remorse about anything. 243 00:14:54,999 --> 00:14:57,084 When he was first arrested in Iowa, 244 00:14:57,626 --> 00:14:59,670 "It’s not my fault. It’s the kid’s fault." 245 00:15:00,337 --> 00:15:06,594 He just did not have the emotional core to feel anything. 246 00:15:07,136 --> 00:15:09,972 He was just kind of a flat line. 247 00:15:11,098 --> 00:15:12,433 As far as my mom and dad felt, 248 00:15:12,475 --> 00:15:16,604 they believe that John was getting railroaded 249 00:15:16,645 --> 00:15:19,774 because him and this other guy were running for office. 250 00:15:20,483 --> 00:15:26,197 The whole thing was over Jaycees and a political position. 251 00:15:26,655 --> 00:15:29,116 I can’t get into it because I really don’t understand 252 00:15:29,158 --> 00:15:30,785 whether John was telling the truth 253 00:15:30,826 --> 00:15:32,495 or not telling the truth, 254 00:15:33,662 --> 00:15:36,665 but my mom and dad, they were believing it. 255 00:15:37,708 --> 00:15:40,461 They understood the sodomy part, but they said 256 00:15:40,503 --> 00:15:43,339 he shouldn’t have been charged because it was consensual. 257 00:15:44,048 --> 00:15:48,803 Gacy dragged out this period of time between the indictment 258 00:15:48,844 --> 00:15:53,641 and the trial, and for the next several months, 259 00:15:53,682 --> 00:15:58,646 we kept hearing horror stories about his attempts to intimidate 260 00:15:58,688 --> 00:16:02,149 and even eliminate the complaining witness. 261 00:16:05,027 --> 00:16:09,073 We recognized that he had a certain amount of evil in him 262 00:16:09,532 --> 00:16:13,369 that would come up again if we didn’t send him to prison. 263 00:16:14,578 --> 00:16:18,499 So we charged him with a series of additional crimes 264 00:16:18,541 --> 00:16:21,544 which eventually led to his guilty plea 265 00:16:22,044 --> 00:16:24,046 on the sodomy charge. 266 00:16:26,215 --> 00:16:29,176 On the night of the sentencing, 267 00:16:29,969 --> 00:16:31,512 we went to see Marlynn, 268 00:16:31,554 --> 00:16:35,182 who was still his wife, but she had filed for divorce, 269 00:16:35,224 --> 00:16:38,102 and her dad told us a lot of things 270 00:16:38,144 --> 00:16:40,396 that he had found out since the arrest. 271 00:16:41,564 --> 00:16:45,735 He felt that John had brought this pretty much on himself. 272 00:16:47,153 --> 00:16:50,031 He had had complaints at the restaurants 273 00:16:50,072 --> 00:16:51,490 that he owned about John 274 00:16:51,532 --> 00:16:53,284 being just a little overly friendly 275 00:16:53,325 --> 00:16:57,538 sometimes with the employees in wrong ways. 276 00:16:58,622 --> 00:17:00,875 He wasn’t sympathetic about any of it. 277 00:17:00,916 --> 00:17:05,379 He just wanted John out of his daughter’s life 278 00:17:05,421 --> 00:17:07,089 and out of the kids’ life. 279 00:17:07,923 --> 00:17:12,261 John Wayne Gacy was sentenced to serve 10 years 280 00:17:12,762 --> 00:17:15,639 in the men’s reformatory at Anamosa. 281 00:17:20,394 --> 00:17:22,938 Anamosa is typically for younger people 282 00:17:22,980 --> 00:17:24,648 who have committed crimes, 283 00:17:25,316 --> 00:17:27,610 and perhaps through rehabilitation, 284 00:17:27,651 --> 00:17:31,197 we can return them to society better than when they came in. 285 00:17:31,655 --> 00:17:33,908 This is the men’s reformatory at Anamosa. 286 00:17:34,367 --> 00:17:37,453 Inside are 629 inmates. 287 00:17:38,913 --> 00:17:42,375 I was 21 years old, and I was only inside the walls 288 00:17:42,416 --> 00:17:46,295 about a year and a half. I had one count of forgery 289 00:17:46,337 --> 00:17:48,923 and one count of breaking and entering, burglary. 290 00:17:49,924 --> 00:17:53,677 The prison itself, it looks like Ivanhoe’s castle. 291 00:17:54,929 --> 00:17:57,598 To me, that’s the best way to describe it. 292 00:17:59,683 --> 00:18:01,560 I wouldn’t want to live there again, 293 00:18:01,602 --> 00:18:07,733 but at least it doesn’t look like a waiting room for hell. 294 00:18:09,777 --> 00:18:11,487 John Wayne Gacy, 295 00:18:12,655 --> 00:18:15,783 inside the walls, he was known as Gacy. 296 00:18:15,825 --> 00:18:18,244 I never heard anybody ever call him John. 297 00:18:18,786 --> 00:18:22,957 "Here comes Gacy recruiting for the reformatory Jaycees." 298 00:18:23,624 --> 00:18:26,627 He literally went around talking to people, 299 00:18:26,669 --> 00:18:28,629 basically saying this is something 300 00:18:28,671 --> 00:18:31,841 that’ll help you pass the time, and so I joined. 301 00:18:31,882 --> 00:18:36,262 That’s how I met him, and then we started hanging out together. 302 00:18:36,303 --> 00:18:38,597 We played cards almost every evening, 303 00:18:38,639 --> 00:18:40,891 always talking about something, 304 00:18:41,350 --> 00:18:44,645 but Gacy lied about why he was there. 305 00:18:46,355 --> 00:18:50,317 His version of that story was that he got popped 306 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,030 for showing pornographic movies to teenagers, 307 00:18:54,655 --> 00:18:57,199 and he certainly never talked about 308 00:18:57,241 --> 00:19:00,369 any sexual assaults on anybody. 309 00:19:01,537 --> 00:19:07,126 He had this big fat secret that he had to hold on to 310 00:19:07,168 --> 00:19:10,004 unless he wanted to leave prison in a box 311 00:19:10,838 --> 00:19:15,968 because that’s what happened to sexual deviants back then, 312 00:19:18,179 --> 00:19:24,018 and so he’d managed to already inveigle himself into a position 313 00:19:24,060 --> 00:19:27,897 of pretty significant influence for an inmate. 314 00:19:28,773 --> 00:19:31,525 I’m John Gacy. I’m from Waterloo, Iowa. 315 00:19:31,567 --> 00:19:33,861 You’re a man of some authority here. 316 00:19:33,903 --> 00:19:34,987 What is your title? 317 00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:37,823 Well, I’m first cook in the kitchen, 318 00:19:37,865 --> 00:19:41,911 and there’s nine cooks under my direction, 319 00:19:42,411 --> 00:19:44,580 under the supervision of several supervisors 320 00:19:44,622 --> 00:19:46,248 that are assigned to the food area. 321 00:19:46,290 --> 00:19:50,544 Of course the kitchen had some of the most 322 00:19:50,586 --> 00:19:56,884 prestigious jobs in the system, and Gacy got a lot of privileges 323 00:19:56,926 --> 00:19:59,136 because he gave a lot of privileges. 324 00:19:59,762 --> 00:20:02,181 When he was cooking as a chef, 325 00:20:02,223 --> 00:20:03,891 he would curry favor from the guards 326 00:20:03,933 --> 00:20:07,228 by providing them with the best steaks and other cuts of meat, 327 00:20:07,686 --> 00:20:09,063 and outside the kitchen, 328 00:20:09,105 --> 00:20:11,774 only the guards and other administrative people 329 00:20:11,816 --> 00:20:14,360 were white shirts in the penitentiary, 330 00:20:14,402 --> 00:20:16,112 but he got to wear a white shirt. 331 00:20:16,737 --> 00:20:18,656 That’s not prison garb, okay? 332 00:20:19,365 --> 00:20:22,618 I mean, it was blue denim then, and it’s orange now, 333 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,040 which meant that he had an in in not only the laundry 334 00:20:28,082 --> 00:20:29,750 but the dry cleaning shop. 335 00:20:30,501 --> 00:20:33,212 He received an award from the national Jaycees 336 00:20:33,796 --> 00:20:38,592 for the best performance in a prison Jaycee chapter. 337 00:20:41,220 --> 00:20:42,972 That’s John. 338 00:20:43,013 --> 00:20:46,517 It literally was one of the bigger chapters 339 00:20:46,559 --> 00:20:48,227 in the entire state. 340 00:20:48,269 --> 00:20:52,565 I’m not in any way diminishing the nature of what John did, 341 00:20:52,606 --> 00:20:55,192 but John had some good attributes, 342 00:20:55,234 --> 00:20:58,654 one of which was he understood how to lead people. 343 00:21:03,159 --> 00:21:07,913 Back then, John had read an article about this couple 344 00:21:07,955 --> 00:21:11,250 who had run this miniature golf course, 345 00:21:11,834 --> 00:21:13,753 couldn’t afford to keep it up. 346 00:21:15,671 --> 00:21:19,341 John immediately looked at that and he talks to the warden, 347 00:21:19,842 --> 00:21:23,971 "Oh, this is a great recreational deal for the guys." 348 00:21:24,013 --> 00:21:26,974 Okay. The warden says, "Fine. Get on the phone and call him." 349 00:21:27,016 --> 00:21:29,643 He does, and of course John tells them, 350 00:21:29,685 --> 00:21:31,145 "This is a nonprofit." 351 00:21:31,187 --> 00:21:33,397 He didn’t both to tell them he was an inmate, 352 00:21:34,190 --> 00:21:36,901 but if you donated to the reformatory, 353 00:21:36,942 --> 00:21:40,112 it’s a nonprofit, and you’ll get a tax break. 354 00:21:42,531 --> 00:21:43,949 So the next thing we know, 355 00:21:43,991 --> 00:21:46,118 we’re sending a truck from prison industries 356 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,121 to pick up the remains of this golf course. 357 00:21:53,709 --> 00:21:56,921 I do have a smile on my face because I like clever, 358 00:21:57,505 --> 00:22:01,550 and that’s clever. His name is anathema now, 359 00:22:02,218 --> 00:22:03,636 but if he’d gone a different route, 360 00:22:03,677 --> 00:22:06,055 that golf course would have his name on it. 361 00:22:07,014 --> 00:22:09,850 His time in prison, I think he talked more 362 00:22:09,892 --> 00:22:13,646 about the meals he made, the miniature golf course. 363 00:22:13,688 --> 00:22:15,189 You would have thought that he was down there 364 00:22:15,231 --> 00:22:17,733 remodeling the prison from the way he talked, 365 00:22:17,775 --> 00:22:20,236 like he was the head guy down there. 366 00:22:21,070 --> 00:22:23,656 In that closed little environment, 367 00:22:23,698 --> 00:22:26,617 people like John have a lot of power. 368 00:22:28,202 --> 00:22:30,996 Human beings don’t change their nature 369 00:22:31,497 --> 00:22:33,874 when you lock the door behind them. 370 00:22:33,916 --> 00:22:36,711 They’re still human beings with all their virtues 371 00:22:36,752 --> 00:22:38,421 and all their faults. 372 00:22:38,921 --> 00:22:42,299 If John Gacy had wanted somebody snuffed, 373 00:22:42,967 --> 00:22:48,431 he could have gotten it done. The power was there. 374 00:22:49,849 --> 00:22:58,524 [Lyrics] 375 00:22:58,566 --> 00:23:04,196 Joyful and triumphant O come ye, 376 00:23:04,238 --> 00:23:07,700 o come ye to Bethlehem 377 00:23:07,742 --> 00:23:11,829 Come and behold him 378 00:23:11,871 --> 00:23:16,292 Christmas at Anamosa, how do these 629 men observe it? 379 00:23:16,751 --> 00:23:19,003 Well, differently than we do of course, 380 00:23:19,045 --> 00:23:22,089 but it’s still Christmas. How about Christmastime? 381 00:23:22,131 --> 00:23:23,883 Do you do anything special for the guys? 382 00:23:23,924 --> 00:23:26,177 The food service department on Christmas Eve, 383 00:23:26,218 --> 00:23:28,971 we would serve cookies and hot chocolate 384 00:23:29,472 --> 00:23:30,848 to the men in the cell house. 385 00:23:30,890 --> 00:23:32,016 [Lyrics] 386 00:23:32,058 --> 00:23:33,768 Glory to God 387 00:23:34,977 --> 00:23:38,564 About a year after John was in prison, 388 00:23:39,231 --> 00:23:44,945 my dad was sickly, and on Christmas Day, my dad died. 389 00:23:44,987 --> 00:23:46,113 [Lyrics] 390 00:23:46,155 --> 00:23:49,450 O come, let us adore him 391 00:23:50,117 --> 00:23:52,161 Christ the Lord 392 00:23:53,454 --> 00:23:55,164 John felt he killed dad. 393 00:23:56,082 --> 00:24:02,922 He felt that what he had done caused dad dying. 394 00:24:04,006 --> 00:24:06,133 We had to try to convince him dad died 395 00:24:06,175 --> 00:24:08,511 because of his drinking. That’s what killed dad. 396 00:24:08,552 --> 00:24:10,971 [Lyrics] Word of the Father 397 00:24:13,099 --> 00:24:16,060 I think it was the shame that he’d went to prison 398 00:24:16,519 --> 00:24:18,771 that was weighing on his mind 399 00:24:18,813 --> 00:24:22,149 because John had always tried to win his approval. 400 00:24:22,191 --> 00:24:23,401 [Lyrics] 401 00:24:23,442 --> 00:24:28,656 O come, let us adore him Christ the Lord 402 00:24:32,451 --> 00:24:35,955 One of the strongest memories I have of John Gacy 403 00:24:35,996 --> 00:24:40,334 was walking the yard every night and just talking, 404 00:24:41,419 --> 00:24:46,757 and he was just devastated by the death of his father 405 00:24:46,799 --> 00:24:48,926 and the fact that he couldn’t be there. 406 00:24:48,968 --> 00:24:52,763 He felt very strongly that he’d somehow let his father down. 407 00:24:53,431 --> 00:24:55,766 That’s the only time I ever saw him cry 408 00:24:57,768 --> 00:24:59,645 was talking about his dad. 409 00:24:59,687 --> 00:25:01,188 How about your dad, John? 410 00:25:01,230 --> 00:25:04,275 You had mentioned that you could never really please him, 411 00:25:04,316 --> 00:25:07,319 that he had talked of you in a derogatory terms. 412 00:25:07,361 --> 00:25:09,030 And I did not hate ... I didn’t hate my dad either. 413 00:25:09,071 --> 00:25:11,323 But you did have a hard upbringing with him, 414 00:25:11,365 --> 00:25:12,992 did you not? 415 00:25:13,034 --> 00:25:16,495 My dad came from the old country, limited education, 416 00:25:16,537 --> 00:25:17,788 but he was a good provider 417 00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:19,832 and with strong will and strong views. 418 00:25:19,874 --> 00:25:22,001 He was also an alcoholic, sorry to say. 419 00:25:22,043 --> 00:25:24,211 Was he abusive? Did he strike out at you from time to time? 420 00:25:24,253 --> 00:25:27,173 When he drank, he was almost like a different person. 421 00:25:27,715 --> 00:25:31,010 My dad struck all of his children all the time. 422 00:25:32,053 --> 00:25:33,721 Yeah. 423 00:25:34,388 --> 00:25:37,767 John was usually his target. 424 00:25:39,060 --> 00:25:42,521 Dad thought my mother kind of mollycoddled him, 425 00:25:42,563 --> 00:25:44,148 that she babied him, 426 00:25:44,648 --> 00:25:48,736 and when he drank too much, John got the brunt of it. 427 00:25:50,446 --> 00:25:54,575 After dad passed away, my mom called me, and she said, 428 00:25:54,617 --> 00:25:56,369 "We’re going to try to get John home 429 00:25:56,410 --> 00:25:59,747 because I’m just by myself," and she was invalid. 430 00:25:59,789 --> 00:26:01,957 A lot of things she couldn’t do for herself. 431 00:26:01,999 --> 00:26:05,753 So she got in touch with a friend 432 00:26:05,795 --> 00:26:08,422 who knew different people here in Illinois, 433 00:26:09,006 --> 00:26:12,802 and he helped her writing letters, 434 00:26:12,843 --> 00:26:16,639 and they finally got through to Iowa. 435 00:26:19,058 --> 00:26:22,353 I’ve been here now about a year and 2 weeks. 436 00:26:22,395 --> 00:26:25,064 How long do you plan to take up residence here? 437 00:26:25,106 --> 00:26:27,817 Well, I hope to be getting out sometime in May. 438 00:26:33,489 --> 00:26:37,910 Because of John’s record of being a model prisoner, 439 00:26:38,911 --> 00:26:41,080 they felt that he was rehabilitated, 440 00:26:41,122 --> 00:26:44,125 and so at 18 months, he came home. 441 00:26:45,418 --> 00:26:47,211 The judge gave him the 10-year sentence, 442 00:26:47,253 --> 00:26:49,088 which was the most he could give him, 443 00:26:49,130 --> 00:26:52,925 but it did go unheeded by the Iowa Parole Authority, 444 00:26:52,967 --> 00:26:56,429 whoever they are, because they allowed him parole after a year 445 00:26:56,470 --> 00:26:59,849 and a half with his white shirt and cooking for the warden 446 00:27:00,766 --> 00:27:02,309 and building a junior golf 447 00:27:02,351 --> 00:27:04,395 course in front of the penitentiary, 448 00:27:06,063 --> 00:27:08,315 and Illinois accepted his parole. 449 00:27:09,483 --> 00:27:12,778 I think possibly some money changed hands, 450 00:27:12,820 --> 00:27:14,655 but all the actors are dead, 451 00:27:15,614 --> 00:27:18,826 and so really it is a closed issue. 452 00:27:20,661 --> 00:27:21,954 We both ended up 453 00:27:21,996 --> 00:27:24,665 being essentially released the same day, 454 00:27:25,207 --> 00:27:28,127 and he said, "Well, if you’re ever in Chicago, look me up. 455 00:27:28,169 --> 00:27:29,837 I’ll take you out to dinner." 456 00:27:30,755 --> 00:27:36,052 The last time I talked to him was literally at the front door. 457 00:27:38,012 --> 00:27:42,725 From a law enforcement standpoint, I am sorry 458 00:27:42,767 --> 00:27:47,730 that there was no transfer of information about this man. 459 00:27:49,023 --> 00:27:51,275 That’s the part that really bothers me. 460 00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:55,154 Our system was developed to the point 461 00:27:55,696 --> 00:27:58,324 that we tracked people who were on parole. 462 00:27:59,533 --> 00:28:01,202 We just didn’t do it, 463 00:28:01,243 --> 00:28:05,373 but we sure had a mountain of information on the man 464 00:28:05,873 --> 00:28:09,794 that would have been extremely helpful to the communities 465 00:28:09,835 --> 00:28:12,254 in which he eventually landed. 466 00:28:14,382 --> 00:28:16,175 After fooling authorities that, 467 00:28:16,217 --> 00:28:18,844 "Oh, he’s fine. He’s cured," 468 00:28:18,886 --> 00:28:22,056 Gacy was free again to come back to Chicago, 469 00:28:23,015 --> 00:28:25,309 but Gacy was not fine at all. 470 00:28:28,229 --> 00:28:31,065 The Iowa State Psychopathic Hospital it 471 00:28:31,107 --> 00:28:33,025 was called at the time 472 00:28:33,067 --> 00:28:36,696 did a complete work-up of Gacy as a sex offender 473 00:28:36,737 --> 00:28:40,950 before the sentencing in that case which essentially says, 474 00:28:40,991 --> 00:28:43,911 "This guy is a sexual psychopath. 475 00:28:45,246 --> 00:28:49,041 There is absolutely no treatment of any kind 476 00:28:49,083 --> 00:28:52,712 that is going to cure this guy. For the rest of his life, 477 00:28:52,753 --> 00:28:55,840 he’s going to remain a dangerous sexual predator." 478 00:28:59,218 --> 00:29:04,890 Gacy’s psychiatric evaluation clearly said, 479 00:29:04,932 --> 00:29:07,685 "This man will continue to commit crimes." 480 00:29:08,728 --> 00:29:12,189 Somebody somewhere really screwed the pooch on this one 481 00:29:12,231 --> 00:29:15,109 because they had every warning sign. 482 00:29:24,076 --> 00:29:26,328 When you paroled out, where did you set up 483 00:29:26,370 --> 00:29:28,831 establishing your residency? I was ... 484 00:29:28,873 --> 00:29:31,876 Under the interstate compact, I was paroled back to Illinois. 485 00:29:31,917 --> 00:29:33,377 Mm-hmm. 486 00:29:33,419 --> 00:29:35,337 And you went to Springfield first, did you not? 487 00:29:35,379 --> 00:29:36,672 No. No? 488 00:29:36,714 --> 00:29:38,466 Directly to Chicago ... Directly to Chicago. 489 00:29:38,507 --> 00:29:40,551 ... because I had a job working at Bruno’s Restaurant. 490 00:29:40,593 --> 00:29:44,055 That was a requirement of interstate compact transfer. 491 00:29:44,096 --> 00:29:46,223 You had to have a job and a place to stay. 492 00:29:46,265 --> 00:29:49,727 I moved in with my mother in the condominium. 493 00:29:49,769 --> 00:29:51,562 My dad had just passed away. 494 00:29:51,604 --> 00:29:56,067 So I lived with my mother and worked at Bruno’s as a chef. 495 00:29:57,818 --> 00:30:02,865 Bruno’s was a pizza place but also an Italian restaurant, 496 00:30:02,907 --> 00:30:04,950 and John did like his job. 497 00:30:05,451 --> 00:30:10,289 I think that he liked the hobnob of being with other people. 498 00:30:11,874 --> 00:30:14,919 He had a whole new life of meeting people 499 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,048 that probably would have never been in his life 500 00:30:19,090 --> 00:30:22,802 had he not been working at the restaurant. 501 00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:26,555 When I first got out on parole, for the next 2 years, 502 00:30:26,597 --> 00:30:28,516 I stayed with Bruno’s Restaurant, 503 00:30:29,475 --> 00:30:31,060 and I worked for them, 504 00:30:31,102 --> 00:30:33,270 but on the side, I used to work for ... 505 00:30:33,312 --> 00:30:35,272 I used to go in at 4 in the morning 506 00:30:35,314 --> 00:30:36,857 and get off at 2 o’clock in the afternoon, 507 00:30:36,899 --> 00:30:40,027 and to me, that was too short of a day, not enough work, 508 00:30:40,069 --> 00:30:42,238 so I started doing odd jobs painting, 509 00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:46,909 and I found that on the weekends, 510 00:30:47,702 --> 00:30:49,203 the afternoons and the weekends, 511 00:30:49,245 --> 00:30:51,580 I was making more money than I was as a chef 512 00:30:52,498 --> 00:30:55,251 even though I was getting 12 something an hour. 513 00:30:55,292 --> 00:30:57,128 I borrowed $600 from my mother, 514 00:30:57,169 --> 00:31:02,007 and through odd jobs, I left the chef business. 515 00:31:05,511 --> 00:31:10,558 He started kicking out this little remodeling type business. 516 00:31:11,767 --> 00:31:15,271 He went to construction and repairs 517 00:31:15,312 --> 00:31:20,109 and rebuilding and remodeling. He just wanted to be successful. 518 00:31:20,151 --> 00:31:23,237 He wanted to be known for something. 519 00:31:24,572 --> 00:31:26,198 I owned PDM Contractors. 520 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,243 PDM was able to work 52 weeks out of the year. 521 00:31:29,285 --> 00:31:31,203 While most construction companies shut down 522 00:31:31,245 --> 00:31:33,956 for the winter, I never had time to shut down 523 00:31:33,998 --> 00:31:36,208 because I had them on a waiting list. 524 00:31:36,250 --> 00:31:38,586 Our business was growing at that rapid rate. 525 00:31:40,546 --> 00:31:45,593 After prison, mom and John got along at first. 526 00:31:47,136 --> 00:31:50,264 His wife went on her way with the kids. 527 00:31:51,474 --> 00:31:54,143 He never tried to contact her or anything, 528 00:31:55,895 --> 00:32:02,234 and then John started talking to mom about getting a bigger place 529 00:32:02,943 --> 00:32:04,445 because he needed to have a garage. 530 00:32:04,487 --> 00:32:08,324 He needed more space to run a business. 531 00:32:08,366 --> 00:32:10,409 He couldn’t do it from a condo. 532 00:32:11,243 --> 00:32:15,247 Well, lo and behold, mom went ahead without us 533 00:32:15,998 --> 00:32:17,708 and sold it, 534 00:32:18,459 --> 00:32:21,921 bought a house that he picked out on Summerdale. 535 00:32:23,547 --> 00:32:26,300 Norwood Park is where they moved to. 536 00:32:27,593 --> 00:32:31,055 Norwood Park Township was bungalows of people, 537 00:32:31,097 --> 00:32:33,557 small single-family houses, 538 00:32:33,599 --> 00:32:35,768 the good working class people of Chicago. 539 00:32:35,810 --> 00:32:37,228 This is where they lived. 540 00:32:37,269 --> 00:32:39,605 That’s what Norwood Park Township was like. 541 00:32:40,314 --> 00:32:43,025 That Summerdale house was rented to PDM Contractors, 542 00:32:43,442 --> 00:32:45,569 and the living room was the front office. 543 00:32:45,611 --> 00:32:48,531 The dining room of that house was like a board room 544 00:32:48,572 --> 00:32:53,577 because it was an 8-by-10-foot table 545 00:32:54,412 --> 00:32:55,830 with big captain’s chairs 546 00:32:55,871 --> 00:32:58,332 because we used it as a board room for meetings. 547 00:32:58,374 --> 00:33:00,793 John was happy because it was going to be 548 00:33:00,835 --> 00:33:04,630 where he could start a business, and mom was happy. 549 00:33:04,672 --> 00:33:07,591 I think she was happy to be back in a house again, 550 00:33:08,134 --> 00:33:11,679 but all of it seemed kind of short-lived 551 00:33:12,513 --> 00:33:16,350 because my girlfriend Carole got to dating him. 552 00:33:17,601 --> 00:33:20,271 Carole was my best friend through high school 553 00:33:20,312 --> 00:33:23,315 and always kind of had a little thing for John, 554 00:33:23,357 --> 00:33:26,318 and the next thing I know it, they’re getting married. 555 00:33:27,945 --> 00:33:32,825 I was really happy because Carole really needed somebody, 556 00:33:33,367 --> 00:33:35,327 and John needed somebody. 557 00:33:36,704 --> 00:33:40,750 I always told him I always felt him as a brother. 558 00:33:41,542 --> 00:33:44,211 The day we got married, that was our big ... 559 00:33:44,754 --> 00:33:46,338 that was a big joke. 560 00:33:46,380 --> 00:33:50,176 He did all the food and everything and setup. 561 00:33:50,217 --> 00:33:52,511 We had the party at the house. 562 00:33:53,679 --> 00:33:57,016 I was introduced to John in 1972 563 00:33:57,058 --> 00:33:58,893 and asked to photograph his wedding. 564 00:33:59,393 --> 00:34:02,730 It was a nice affair, very small, very low-key. 565 00:34:03,522 --> 00:34:06,192 I photographed it all in black and white. 566 00:34:06,901 --> 00:34:11,113 He was a good groom that day. 567 00:34:12,490 --> 00:34:14,742 During the wedding, he was dignified, 568 00:34:14,784 --> 00:34:16,243 and Carole was beautiful. 569 00:34:16,911 --> 00:34:19,497 Her two little girls, John’s stepdaughters, 570 00:34:19,538 --> 00:34:21,999 stood up in the wedding, little flower girls. 571 00:34:22,708 --> 00:34:24,377 He was always good to the girls. 572 00:34:24,418 --> 00:34:27,213 I can’t say enough about that. 573 00:34:27,254 --> 00:34:31,675 I mean, the girls still refer to him as their dad. 574 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,678 John was settling again. 575 00:34:35,137 --> 00:34:37,181 He moved Carole and her children in, 576 00:34:37,223 --> 00:34:41,602 and then he moved the mother in, Carole’s mother, 577 00:34:41,644 --> 00:34:43,771 and then of course he had mom living there, 578 00:34:44,188 --> 00:34:47,525 but she didn’t want to interfere because of their marriage 579 00:34:47,566 --> 00:34:49,360 and everything, a new marriage, 580 00:34:49,860 --> 00:34:53,364 and she just felt it’d be better if she was back on her own, 581 00:34:53,406 --> 00:34:58,035 and so he got her an apartment in a building 582 00:34:58,077 --> 00:35:00,996 where he was doing maintenance on Miami 583 00:35:01,539 --> 00:35:08,254 not too far from the house. When mom moved out, 584 00:35:08,295 --> 00:35:11,090 she just said things weren’t getting along, 585 00:35:11,757 --> 00:35:16,554 but that’s all she said. She didn’t say anything else. 586 00:35:17,888 --> 00:35:21,934 Mom protected John all the time, all the time. 587 00:35:22,727 --> 00:35:25,813 One time she said that she’d come home one night, 588 00:35:25,855 --> 00:35:28,357 and it was totally dark in her apartment, 589 00:35:28,399 --> 00:35:30,443 and when she turned on the light, 590 00:35:30,484 --> 00:35:34,363 found him there with another man in her living room. 591 00:35:36,198 --> 00:35:38,492 It scared the daylights out of her. 592 00:35:39,285 --> 00:35:41,370 She didn’t know what was going on. 593 00:35:41,412 --> 00:35:44,623 It just scared her, and I asked her 594 00:35:44,665 --> 00:35:47,334 if she ever found out what that was all about. 595 00:35:48,294 --> 00:35:50,796 She said, "Oh, it was just nothing." 596 00:35:51,630 --> 00:35:57,887 She did try to protect him. There was no doubt in my mind 597 00:35:58,345 --> 00:36:01,557 that she probably carried secrets 598 00:36:02,016 --> 00:36:03,726 that she went to the grave with. 599 00:36:13,110 --> 00:36:14,320 The media says ... 600 00:36:14,362 --> 00:36:15,738 has called you a homosexual killer. 601 00:36:15,780 --> 00:36:18,115 What is your position on homosexuality? 602 00:36:18,157 --> 00:36:21,952 I have nothing against it. I’m an outspoken liberal. 603 00:36:22,328 --> 00:36:27,458 I don’t care for the labeling. 604 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,044 I don’t care for any labeling for that fact. I’ve been ... 605 00:36:30,086 --> 00:36:31,212 Do you claim to be a ... No. 606 00:36:31,253 --> 00:36:32,671 Do you claim homosexuality? 607 00:36:32,713 --> 00:36:36,675 No, I would definitely not be homosexual. 608 00:36:37,635 --> 00:36:39,637 I have nothing against what they do, 609 00:36:39,678 --> 00:36:46,102 and I don’t deny that I’ve engaged in sex with males, 610 00:36:46,143 --> 00:36:47,478 but I’m bisexual. 611 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,105 You’re bisexual? Right. I ... 612 00:36:49,146 --> 00:36:50,606 my preference is women. 613 00:36:50,648 --> 00:36:51,732 Mm-hmm. 614 00:36:51,774 --> 00:36:53,359 And I’ve been married enough times 615 00:36:53,401 --> 00:36:56,779 and have children, and I see nothing wrong with it. 616 00:36:59,323 --> 00:37:01,242 He always told me he was bisexual. 617 00:37:02,201 --> 00:37:07,415 I didn’t know anything about the sodomy from when he was Iowa. 618 00:37:07,998 --> 00:37:13,170 I didn’t know the full story. That’s why it didn’t hit me 619 00:37:13,212 --> 00:37:15,089 like, "Oh, my god. He was in prison." 620 00:37:15,131 --> 00:37:19,927 He just said he was dealing with pornography. That was his story. 621 00:37:20,845 --> 00:37:24,432 After having the wedding pictures, John always called me 622 00:37:24,473 --> 00:37:27,309 for doing various little photographic jobs 623 00:37:27,351 --> 00:37:29,562 as well as some of the construction work. 624 00:37:29,603 --> 00:37:32,732 Anything he needed pictures of, I was there to do it, 625 00:37:32,773 --> 00:37:35,276 or if there was a wall to be knocked down, 626 00:37:35,317 --> 00:37:37,028 I was there to do it. 627 00:37:37,737 --> 00:37:41,365 So I photographed him as Pogo the Clown. 628 00:37:42,033 --> 00:37:44,160 I photographed his stepchildren. 629 00:37:44,201 --> 00:37:47,663 I photographed his family for their Christmas cards. 630 00:37:49,206 --> 00:37:52,710 John was a master at saying something 631 00:37:53,419 --> 00:37:55,880 without coming right out and saying it. 632 00:37:56,881 --> 00:38:01,218 But if you took offense to it, he would always have an out. 633 00:38:02,136 --> 00:38:03,763 He once said to me, 634 00:38:03,804 --> 00:38:07,391 "There’s money to be made in photographing homosexuals," 635 00:38:08,059 --> 00:38:11,228 and I assumed, knowing John, 636 00:38:11,771 --> 00:38:15,191 that there was going to be something sideways about this, 637 00:38:15,858 --> 00:38:19,737 either sleazy or maybe just downright illegal. 638 00:38:20,780 --> 00:38:23,532 He said to me, "What? How dare you say 639 00:38:23,574 --> 00:38:26,285 that I should photograph homosexuals 640 00:38:26,327 --> 00:38:31,123 engaging in illicit behavior. I didn’t say that at all. 641 00:38:31,165 --> 00:38:35,086 I just meant taking dignified portraits of homosexuals. 642 00:38:35,127 --> 00:38:36,545 What’s wrong with that? 643 00:38:36,587 --> 00:38:39,048 There’s no illegality or immorality in that." 644 00:38:39,090 --> 00:38:40,257 Well, of course there isn’t, 645 00:38:40,299 --> 00:38:42,968 but he always left himself an out. 646 00:38:43,594 --> 00:38:46,931 He was very careful the way he used his words. 647 00:38:48,265 --> 00:38:51,602 John didn’t like if anybody called him a homosexual, 648 00:38:51,644 --> 00:38:54,605 but I guess he preferred men more than he did women. 649 00:38:55,648 --> 00:39:00,528 I didn’t realize how much of that was going on. 650 00:39:01,362 --> 00:39:03,155 My dad had conservative values. 651 00:39:03,197 --> 00:39:05,491 If you were out after midnight, you were up to no good. 652 00:39:05,533 --> 00:39:07,702 My dad did not believe it. If you were out after dark 653 00:39:07,743 --> 00:39:09,370 and you didn’t leave a phone number, 654 00:39:09,412 --> 00:39:10,913 you were up to no good. 655 00:39:10,955 --> 00:39:13,582 So I think that’s why I tended to go that way more, 656 00:39:13,624 --> 00:39:15,292 just to be the opposite of him. 657 00:39:16,001 --> 00:39:19,296 I used to make comments when he would go out at night, 658 00:39:20,089 --> 00:39:22,508 and when I would make these comments and say, 659 00:39:22,550 --> 00:39:25,344 "You know, anybody that’s going out at midnight 660 00:39:25,803 --> 00:39:27,304 is up to no good," 661 00:39:27,346 --> 00:39:29,932 so this is when I was getting aggravated with him though. 662 00:39:29,974 --> 00:39:31,142 This was ... 663 00:39:31,183 --> 00:39:33,894 we were married already maybe about 2 years, 664 00:39:35,354 --> 00:39:37,273 and he said, "You sound like my father." 665 00:39:37,314 --> 00:39:39,734 I said, "Good. I hope it haunts you." 666 00:39:41,068 --> 00:39:43,320 I don’t think I ever slept a lot really. 667 00:39:44,030 --> 00:39:47,992 Our bedroom was right by the drive as you come in, 668 00:39:48,826 --> 00:39:51,120 and there were times I’d hear the car 669 00:39:51,162 --> 00:39:54,623 and thinking he’s coming in, never heard the door open. 670 00:39:54,665 --> 00:39:58,085 So I’d get up, and I would nosy around. 671 00:39:58,961 --> 00:40:00,671 His car would be parked, 672 00:40:00,713 --> 00:40:03,632 and he’d be maybe standing and talking to somebody, 673 00:40:03,674 --> 00:40:05,551 and it was always a young kid. 674 00:40:06,510 --> 00:40:09,346 I thought really he was dealing with drugs. 675 00:40:10,014 --> 00:40:12,975 It’s like a Grand Central Station all night long. 676 00:40:14,018 --> 00:40:16,854 I had gone to the garage one day when he was gone, 677 00:40:16,896 --> 00:40:20,107 and I knew he’d be gone for a long period of time, 678 00:40:20,149 --> 00:40:24,695 and there was a red light up on the wall. 679 00:40:25,196 --> 00:40:29,033 He had heavy chains laying on the side 680 00:40:29,075 --> 00:40:30,743 and a blanket on the floor, 681 00:40:31,702 --> 00:40:33,913 and then the one time I was in his car, 682 00:40:33,954 --> 00:40:37,124 I reached under the seat and found a big crowbar 683 00:40:37,792 --> 00:40:40,544 and a couple of other ... and I’m like, "What in the heck 684 00:40:40,586 --> 00:40:42,755 are you carrying a crowbar in your car for?" 685 00:40:42,797 --> 00:40:45,674 He says, "What the hell are you doing in my car?" 686 00:40:45,716 --> 00:40:47,593 I said, "I was cleaning it." 687 00:40:49,553 --> 00:40:52,681 I felt like I was living in this ... 688 00:40:53,391 --> 00:40:55,101 that it was some kind of a movie, 689 00:40:56,018 --> 00:40:57,978 and of course there was Mother’s Day, 690 00:40:58,020 --> 00:41:01,816 which last time we had any ... anything to do with one another. 691 00:41:01,857 --> 00:41:03,317 He said, "Happy Mother’s Day, 692 00:41:03,359 --> 00:41:05,528 and this is the last time that we’re having sex." 693 00:41:05,569 --> 00:41:07,446 I said, "Oh, really?" 694 00:41:07,488 --> 00:41:09,990 Well, with all the stuff that was going on, 695 00:41:10,032 --> 00:41:12,576 and I felt that he was lying to me, 696 00:41:13,077 --> 00:41:16,664 I had made an appointment to go and see a lawyer 697 00:41:16,706 --> 00:41:19,417 because I didn’t want to live like that anymore. 698 00:41:22,253 --> 00:41:23,879 I was married twice, 699 00:41:23,921 --> 00:41:25,965 and just because I didn’t get along in the marriages ... 700 00:41:26,006 --> 00:41:27,758 My marriages went down the drain 701 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,762 only because I was a workaholic working 7 days a week and that. 702 00:41:32,263 --> 00:41:34,974 Years later, Carole finally opened up to me, 703 00:41:35,015 --> 00:41:40,896 and she said she really felt that he was making things bad 704 00:41:40,938 --> 00:41:42,440 so she’d leave, 705 00:41:42,940 --> 00:41:48,779 and I guess I could understand that knowing what I know today. 706 00:41:52,700 --> 00:41:55,077 He was definitely leading two lives. 707 00:41:56,579 --> 00:41:58,456 Even though he wanted the happiness, 708 00:41:58,956 --> 00:42:01,792 something kept driving him toward the other side. 709 00:42:06,672 --> 00:42:09,091 The day that I walked out of that house, 710 00:42:09,842 --> 00:42:12,762 he said, "One day, you’re going to read about me 711 00:42:12,803 --> 00:42:14,889 on the front pages of the newspapers." 712 00:42:16,515 --> 00:42:20,102 Even being married to him, there was a lot that I didn’t know. 713 00:42:24,065 --> 00:42:26,734 Gacy employed mostly young men, 714 00:42:27,151 --> 00:42:29,612 and they would party at the house. 715 00:42:30,279 --> 00:42:33,449 Not only his friends liked to party there, 716 00:42:33,491 --> 00:42:35,117 so did his employees. 717 00:42:35,159 --> 00:42:38,287 That was their home away from home and source 718 00:42:38,329 --> 00:42:43,667 of all kinds of marijuana, drugs, uppers, pills, booze. 719 00:42:45,669 --> 00:42:48,631 And people often asked him why he would employ 720 00:42:49,173 --> 00:42:51,133 all these inexperienced young men. 721 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,221 He’d developed relationships with lots of them. 722 00:42:56,263 --> 00:42:57,973 There were the lost souls, 723 00:42:59,558 --> 00:43:02,436 the kids that had no aim in life. 724 00:43:02,478 --> 00:43:06,982 They had nowhere else to go. If they needed a flop somewhere, 725 00:43:07,024 --> 00:43:09,485 well, they knew they could count on John. 726 00:43:09,527 --> 00:43:10,820 There was 12 keys out to the house. 727 00:43:10,861 --> 00:43:12,196 Twelve sets of keys? 728 00:43:12,238 --> 00:43:13,614 Twelve sets of keys. 729 00:43:13,656 --> 00:43:15,449 Anybody working for PDM Contractors 730 00:43:15,491 --> 00:43:17,702 had a set of keys for the house 731 00:43:18,244 --> 00:43:19,787 so you could come and go when you wanted, 732 00:43:19,829 --> 00:43:21,664 and of course my neighbors would keep me informed. 733 00:43:21,706 --> 00:43:22,915 They would inform me, 734 00:43:22,957 --> 00:43:24,709 "God, while you were out of town, 735 00:43:25,334 --> 00:43:27,962 they must have been partying all night there." 736 00:43:28,421 --> 00:43:30,548 At that point, John is alone. 737 00:43:31,507 --> 00:43:36,971 Sometime later, Michael Rossi came to live with John. 738 00:43:37,513 --> 00:43:38,806 Who is Rossi? 739 00:43:38,848 --> 00:43:40,474 Michael Rossi was an employee of PDM. 740 00:43:40,516 --> 00:43:43,561 Mm-hmm. And how old was he at the time? Who was he? 741 00:43:43,978 --> 00:43:45,354 He was 20 years old. 742 00:43:45,396 --> 00:43:49,108 Michael Rossi was a handsome kid, polite. 743 00:43:49,692 --> 00:43:51,986 He just struck me as just a nice kid 744 00:43:52,028 --> 00:43:54,989 who wouldn’t be involved in anything unseemly. 745 00:43:56,991 --> 00:44:00,369 If John and Michael got something from another, 746 00:44:00,411 --> 00:44:04,248 the obvious thing right on the surface of it: 747 00:44:05,416 --> 00:44:07,084 Michael got work. 748 00:44:07,918 --> 00:44:12,089 John got his walls knocked down for cheap. 749 00:44:12,882 --> 00:44:15,009 Michael got room and board. 750 00:44:16,594 --> 00:44:19,180 John got some form of companionship. 751 00:44:20,097 --> 00:44:23,642 John told me that Michael Rossi is really good 752 00:44:23,684 --> 00:44:27,605 with helping keep his crews working. 753 00:44:27,646 --> 00:44:29,607 He could count on him to do things. 754 00:44:30,274 --> 00:44:32,526 When he ordered it, it would get done, 755 00:44:33,194 --> 00:44:35,279 but I know Carole didn’t care for him. 756 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,699 We just couldn’t put our finger on why. 757 00:44:40,284 --> 00:44:44,372 I learned later their connection was not only business. 758 00:44:44,413 --> 00:44:46,290 It was also personal and sexual. 759 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,586 There was more than one person that was in that 760 00:44:50,628 --> 00:44:52,630 some kind of relationship. 761 00:44:54,048 --> 00:44:57,635 David Cram was one of those people who worked for John 762 00:44:57,676 --> 00:44:59,470 sometimes as a construction person. 763 00:45:00,179 --> 00:45:03,974 He worked in the bedroom. They had a sexual relationship. 764 00:45:04,558 --> 00:45:07,937 He collected checks from John’s company. 765 00:45:07,978 --> 00:45:09,980 He got to borrow John’s car. 766 00:45:10,648 --> 00:45:13,359 It’s the same setup where you give me something, 767 00:45:13,401 --> 00:45:15,027 I’ll give you something. 768 00:45:15,069 --> 00:45:18,155 Insofar as being bisexual, if I wanted to engage in sex, 769 00:45:18,656 --> 00:45:22,034 Rossi and Cram were willing to go down on me anytime I wanted, 770 00:45:22,076 --> 00:45:24,078 providing they were given stuff. 771 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,833 Those two guys were around and in the house a lot. 772 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,337 The very first time I met Rossi and Cram, 773 00:45:34,046 --> 00:45:42,096 I just said to John, "Those two are bad news." 774 00:45:50,688 --> 00:45:54,316 John Wayne Gacy, a popular Democratic precinct captain, 775 00:45:54,358 --> 00:45:58,029 emerged as a person of interest in a missing persons case. 776 00:45:59,113 --> 00:46:01,657 Robert Piest was only 15 years old. 777 00:46:02,992 --> 00:46:05,870 He disappeared after applying for a job with Gacy. 778 00:46:09,123 --> 00:46:11,125 Throughout the entire investigation, 779 00:46:11,167 --> 00:46:13,335 Gacy was always talking about suing 780 00:46:13,377 --> 00:46:16,130 the Des Plaines Police Department for harassment 781 00:46:16,547 --> 00:46:19,133 and interfering with his freedom. 782 00:46:19,175 --> 00:46:22,970 So he calls in Sam Amirante, who was just leaving 783 00:46:23,012 --> 00:46:25,389 the public defender’s office at this time, 784 00:46:25,431 --> 00:46:31,020 and they sue for harassing him with the surveillance. 785 00:46:31,062 --> 00:46:33,731 Sam Amirante and John Wayne Gacy 786 00:46:33,773 --> 00:46:35,649 had known each other from Norwood Park 787 00:46:35,691 --> 00:46:37,401 Township political circles. 788 00:46:37,818 --> 00:46:40,154 Gacy was a member of the electric board, 789 00:46:40,196 --> 00:46:45,993 and Amirante did some legal work for them. 790 00:46:46,035 --> 00:46:50,456 He had just hung out his shingle as a criminal defense attorney, 791 00:46:50,498 --> 00:46:53,000 and so when Gacy needed a favor, 792 00:46:53,042 --> 00:46:55,628 is the way he put it, he called Amirante. 793 00:46:55,669 --> 00:46:58,798 John Gacy was Sam Amirante’s first private client. 794 00:46:59,673 --> 00:47:02,510 Yeah, that’s one hell of a way to start your career 795 00:47:02,551 --> 00:47:04,220 in private practice. 796 00:47:05,179 --> 00:47:06,347 Most of our work, obviously, 797 00:47:06,389 --> 00:47:08,391 as surveillance team was outside. 798 00:47:08,432 --> 00:47:11,852 So Gacy is in the attorney’s office, 799 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,105 and the next thing we know, 800 00:47:14,146 --> 00:47:16,899 it’s 3 o’clock in the morning or something like that. 801 00:47:16,941 --> 00:47:19,151 One of the attorneys comes out the front door 802 00:47:19,193 --> 00:47:20,611 and waves Mike over and says, 803 00:47:20,653 --> 00:47:23,030 "Hey. I know it’s super cold out there. 804 00:47:23,906 --> 00:47:25,574 Why don’t you guys come on in? 805 00:47:25,616 --> 00:47:28,202 It’s too brutal for you guys to be out there all night." 806 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,624 Seeing what led up to this point, 807 00:47:33,666 --> 00:47:35,084 we talked to each other and said, 808 00:47:35,126 --> 00:47:37,294 "You think maybe he confessed to his attorneys, 809 00:47:37,336 --> 00:47:39,171 and they’re a little concerned that they’re in there 810 00:47:39,213 --> 00:47:40,881 with him all by himself?" 811 00:47:41,507 --> 00:47:44,552 And that’s a darn good possibility. 812 00:47:44,593 --> 00:47:48,681 So we decided, "Okay. We’ll come in there under one condition. 813 00:47:48,723 --> 00:47:51,183 We have to be able to see Gacy." 814 00:47:51,225 --> 00:47:53,561 So they get us a couple chairs, and they’re, 815 00:47:53,602 --> 00:47:55,271 "Whatever you guys want, we’ll get for you." 816 00:47:55,312 --> 00:47:57,189 They bring a bottle of booze out here. 817 00:47:57,231 --> 00:47:59,900 "Have a drink on us," and just couldn’t do enough for us. 818 00:47:59,942 --> 00:48:01,235 And we still hadn’t seen Gacy. 819 00:48:01,277 --> 00:48:03,821 The attorneys gingerly bring Gacy out, 820 00:48:03,863 --> 00:48:05,990 and he looked like he was the walking dead. 821 00:48:06,407 --> 00:48:09,243 His eyes were closed. He was slouched over, 822 00:48:09,285 --> 00:48:11,245 and it looked like he was actually sleeping. 823 00:48:11,287 --> 00:48:13,247 So he laid him on the front couch. 824 00:48:13,289 --> 00:48:14,915 We could see him through the glass, 825 00:48:14,957 --> 00:48:16,584 and we were talking to the attorneys 826 00:48:16,625 --> 00:48:20,046 about what we have seen over this 10 days of following him, 827 00:48:20,087 --> 00:48:22,339 and this guy is dangerous. 828 00:48:23,132 --> 00:48:25,092 We both had this kind of look on our face 829 00:48:25,134 --> 00:48:26,552 and stepped back and said, 830 00:48:26,594 --> 00:48:28,804 "Well, just be careful because when he wakes up, 831 00:48:28,846 --> 00:48:30,181 you never know what he’s going to do. 832 00:48:30,222 --> 00:48:31,766 We’ve been told that he gets very violent. 833 00:48:31,807 --> 00:48:36,020 He can hurt people and is very erratic when he wakes up." 834 00:48:37,438 --> 00:48:40,274 And they get this very shocked look on their face. 835 00:48:40,316 --> 00:48:42,360 Their eyes were like the size of saucers. 836 00:48:42,401 --> 00:48:44,570 Believe this or not, the attorney said, 837 00:48:45,321 --> 00:48:48,199 "Guys, if he tries to leave, shoot his tires out. 838 00:48:49,825 --> 00:48:52,495 We can’t tell you anything. Stop it. Don’t let him leave." 839 00:48:52,536 --> 00:48:55,956 So there was something very urgent on their minds. 840 00:48:58,334 --> 00:49:01,462 Well, about, I don’t know, 7:30 or 8 in the morning, 841 00:49:01,504 --> 00:49:02,838 Gacy gets up. 842 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,008 He jumps up off this couch, stares straight ahead. 843 00:49:06,050 --> 00:49:08,344 He had this wild man look in his eyes, 844 00:49:08,386 --> 00:49:11,263 flung the door open, jumped in his car and took off. 845 00:49:12,264 --> 00:49:15,893 We were in hot pursuit on foot to get to our cars 846 00:49:15,935 --> 00:49:18,145 so we could follow him and not lose him. 847 00:49:24,276 --> 00:49:28,197 His first stop was a gas station, a Shell station. 848 00:49:29,782 --> 00:49:33,285 Goes into the gas station, and he’s double handshaking 849 00:49:33,327 --> 00:49:37,373 and showing some emotion with the owner. 850 00:49:37,873 --> 00:49:39,750 Gacy didn’t do that kind of thing, 851 00:49:39,792 --> 00:49:41,502 so that was kind of strange. 852 00:49:41,544 --> 00:49:44,505 It really looks almost like he’s saying his last goodbyes, 853 00:49:44,547 --> 00:49:47,883 and at one point, he pulls out a ... 854 00:49:47,925 --> 00:49:49,218 we could see from a distance, 855 00:49:49,260 --> 00:49:51,053 it looked like a bag of marijuana, 856 00:49:51,095 --> 00:49:53,180 and put it in the pocket of this young man, 857 00:49:53,222 --> 00:49:56,392 the attendant. And again, he took off like a madman. 858 00:49:58,310 --> 00:50:00,521 We decided Mike would follow Gacy, 859 00:50:00,563 --> 00:50:02,648 and I would go in the gas station. 860 00:50:02,690 --> 00:50:04,275 As soon as I walked in the gas station, 861 00:50:04,316 --> 00:50:06,027 this kid took the marijuana out of his pocket 862 00:50:06,068 --> 00:50:07,820 and just about threw it at me and said, 863 00:50:07,862 --> 00:50:10,281 "Hey, I didn’t buy this. I didn’t ask for it. 864 00:50:10,322 --> 00:50:13,284 He just gave it to me. He says he’s given his stuff away." 865 00:50:13,325 --> 00:50:14,910 We went from the gas station. 866 00:50:14,952 --> 00:50:16,203 We didn’t know where we were going. 867 00:50:16,245 --> 00:50:17,955 We ended up at David Cram’s house. 868 00:50:18,581 --> 00:50:21,208 So he pulls up. He goes into Cram’s house. 869 00:50:21,917 --> 00:50:24,378 They both come out. David Cram comes over to me 870 00:50:24,420 --> 00:50:28,090 and asks if it’s all right if he drives Gacy’s car. 871 00:50:28,758 --> 00:50:30,676 I said, "I don’t care if you’ve got a driver’s license. 872 00:50:30,718 --> 00:50:32,053 Don’t drive like an idiot, 873 00:50:32,094 --> 00:50:34,055 and you won’t have any problem from us." 874 00:50:34,096 --> 00:50:37,224 So they drive from Cram’s house over to Di Leo’s restaurant 875 00:50:37,266 --> 00:50:40,478 in the Chicago area, and Gacy goes in, 876 00:50:42,355 --> 00:50:45,232 and then all of a sudden Cram jumps out of his car 877 00:50:45,274 --> 00:50:46,567 and comes over to us and says, 878 00:50:46,609 --> 00:50:49,070 "Gacy just told me he killed 33 kids." 879 00:50:55,284 --> 00:50:59,580 I realized the magnitude of this case at that point, 880 00:51:00,790 --> 00:51:04,710 and Cram is saying that Gacy is going to try to kill himself. 881 00:51:07,129 --> 00:51:10,424 He was going to go to his father’s grave at a cemetery, 882 00:51:11,133 --> 00:51:13,135 and he was going to commit suicide. 883 00:51:16,138 --> 00:51:18,474 But Dave obviously had a bag of marijuana, 884 00:51:18,516 --> 00:51:20,684 so okay, let’s just take him on a marijuana 885 00:51:20,726 --> 00:51:22,353 and see what happens from there. 886 00:51:22,395 --> 00:51:24,021 I grab Gacy. I pull him out of the car 887 00:51:24,063 --> 00:51:25,856 and throw him up against the trunk, 888 00:51:26,315 --> 00:51:29,485 and pretty much yell at him that he’s under arrest, 889 00:51:30,111 --> 00:51:33,656 and that was just for the marijuana, 890 00:51:34,490 --> 00:51:37,785 and we knew that the investigators were seeking 891 00:51:37,827 --> 00:51:39,120 a second search warrant. 892 00:51:39,161 --> 00:51:40,621 And we put handcuffs on him and put him 893 00:51:40,663 --> 00:51:44,417 in the back of our car and drove to the station, 894 00:51:45,334 --> 00:51:47,795 and shortly after being at the station, 895 00:51:47,837 --> 00:51:49,547 Gacy complained of chest pains, 896 00:51:50,131 --> 00:51:51,716 so they took him to the emergency room 897 00:51:51,757 --> 00:51:54,301 at the Holy Family hospital. They told him at the hospital, 898 00:51:54,343 --> 00:51:55,928 just give him the whole screening. 899 00:51:55,970 --> 00:51:57,596 Do whatever you got to do. 900 00:51:57,638 --> 00:52:00,474 They wanted him there as long as they could 901 00:52:00,516 --> 00:52:04,186 until they got executed on the second search warrant. 902 00:52:06,022 --> 00:52:07,314 Mike stays back at the station, 903 00:52:07,356 --> 00:52:09,316 and I go up, sit with Gacy, 904 00:52:09,358 --> 00:52:11,110 and not long after we were there, I said, 905 00:52:11,152 --> 00:52:13,821 "Hey, there’s a call for you, Dave," so I got on the phone. 906 00:52:13,863 --> 00:52:17,658 It was Captain Kozenczak over at Gacy’s house, and he said, 907 00:52:17,700 --> 00:52:20,202 "Hey, we just executed the second search warrant. 908 00:52:20,244 --> 00:52:21,662 We went in the crawl space, 909 00:52:21,704 --> 00:52:25,583 and the very first shovel of dirt that we dug into, 910 00:52:26,167 --> 00:52:28,544 we found bones down there, human remains." 911 00:52:29,211 --> 00:52:31,881 So at that point is when I arrested Gacy for murder. 912 00:52:32,548 --> 00:52:34,425 Gacy had been a successful building contractor 913 00:52:34,467 --> 00:52:35,634 at the time of the discovery. 914 00:52:35,676 --> 00:52:37,303 ... volunteer at the local Jaycees 915 00:52:37,344 --> 00:52:39,513 who entertained children as Pogo the Clown. 916 00:52:39,555 --> 00:52:40,848 He is charged with murder. 917 00:52:40,890 --> 00:52:42,516 ... killed as many as 32 teenage boys. 918 00:52:42,558 --> 00:52:44,393 This grim investigation is expected to last ... 919 00:52:44,435 --> 00:52:47,813 It’s almost a sense of being in shock and disappointment. 920 00:52:47,855 --> 00:52:51,150 We were so hopeful that somehow Rob Piest 921 00:52:51,192 --> 00:52:53,194 would be found alive somewhere, 922 00:52:53,944 --> 00:52:57,114 but at this point, we realized that wasn’t going to happen. 923 00:52:58,199 --> 00:53:01,410 Certainly there was a cost of Gacy’s early release 924 00:53:01,452 --> 00:53:02,787 from prison at Anamosa 925 00:53:02,828 --> 00:53:05,539 because had he done his full sentence, 926 00:53:05,581 --> 00:53:08,376 he would have been in prison until ’78. 927 00:53:08,834 --> 00:53:11,128 The crimes never would have happened, 928 00:53:11,629 --> 00:53:16,467 and there would have been a lot less people 929 00:53:16,509 --> 00:53:19,512 that would have been affected by John Wayne Gacy. 930 00:53:20,137 --> 00:53:23,974 Gacy’s dark secrets, the fact that this was a house of death, 931 00:53:24,016 --> 00:53:26,185 a house of horror, was not known. 932 00:53:26,811 --> 00:53:28,729 They have found the decomposed remains 933 00:53:28,771 --> 00:53:31,607 in the dirt crawl space underneath Gacy’s house. 934 00:53:32,066 --> 00:53:33,776 They expect to find many more. 935 00:53:34,318 --> 00:53:36,445 The minute authorities realized 936 00:53:37,321 --> 00:53:38,656 that there were bodies buried 937 00:53:38,698 --> 00:53:40,908 and they started prying up the floorboards, 938 00:53:40,950 --> 00:53:44,078 that’s when the secrets of John Wayne Gacy 939 00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:46,664 started to pour out of that house.