1 00:00:07,695 --> 00:00:08,696 A number of ... 2 00:00:08,738 --> 00:00:09,989 What, three or four psychiatrists 3 00:00:10,031 --> 00:00:11,198 and psychologists interviewed you? 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:12,700 I had thirteen of them. 5 00:00:12,742 --> 00:00:15,536 There was six for the defense and seven for the state. 6 00:00:15,578 --> 00:00:16,954 Yeah. What was the ... The state’s doctor ... 7 00:00:16,996 --> 00:00:19,081 ... position of the defense psychiatrists? 8 00:00:19,123 --> 00:00:21,167 What did they feel your problem was? 9 00:00:22,626 --> 00:00:25,337 What did they come up with from the standpoint of ... 10 00:00:25,379 --> 00:00:27,381 Border ... What the hell is it? 11 00:00:27,423 --> 00:00:29,300 God, I can’t remember offhand. 12 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,763 Borderline personality, anti-social behavior. 13 00:00:33,804 --> 00:00:36,057 I don’t see how anybody can be anti-social 14 00:00:36,098 --> 00:00:38,768 when you were involved with the public as much as I was. 15 00:00:38,809 --> 00:00:41,562 How about the multiple-personality issue? 16 00:00:41,979 --> 00:00:43,647 Oh, the multiple personality 17 00:00:45,483 --> 00:00:47,902 came out of Dr. Reifman and Hartman. 18 00:00:48,903 --> 00:00:53,407 These two clowns from the the Cook County there, 19 00:00:53,908 --> 00:00:55,659 they came to see me the first time. 20 00:00:55,701 --> 00:00:58,371 I says, "You want to talk to John Wayne Gacy the politician, 21 00:00:58,412 --> 00:01:01,540 the clown, the family man, or the businessman?" 22 00:01:02,458 --> 00:01:04,043 The next day I see it in the newspaper: 23 00:01:04,085 --> 00:01:06,212 "Gacy has four personalities." 24 00:01:52,425 --> 00:01:54,343 Now it was a one-sided fight. 25 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,012 Man and machine against the wooden shell 26 00:01:57,054 --> 00:01:58,514 of a 20-year-old bungalow. 27 00:01:59,140 --> 00:02:01,851 As the roof and walls shattered, reporters and neighbors 28 00:02:01,892 --> 00:02:05,187 became witness to what Sheriff’s Investigators had been probing 29 00:02:05,229 --> 00:02:07,064 since a few days before Christmas. 30 00:02:07,606 --> 00:02:10,651 The stark frame covering to a mass grave. 31 00:02:11,444 --> 00:02:13,112 If you look closely, 32 00:02:13,154 --> 00:02:15,656 you’ll see fluorescent orange markings on the cement walls 33 00:02:15,698 --> 00:02:18,451 that surround the crawl space, now open to the rain. 34 00:02:19,243 --> 00:02:22,747 Each marking indicates the spot where a body was disinterred. 35 00:02:24,081 --> 00:02:26,333 Bulldozers have finished clearing what was once 36 00:02:26,375 --> 00:02:28,711 the crawl space of the home. But ironically, 37 00:02:28,753 --> 00:02:32,048 one boy whose body was not found on the Gacy property 38 00:02:32,089 --> 00:02:35,009 led to the investigation: young Robert Piest. 39 00:02:38,596 --> 00:02:40,389 We didn’t even have the body yet. 40 00:02:40,431 --> 00:02:42,475 Robert Piest's body was still missing. 41 00:02:42,975 --> 00:02:46,479 Even though we thought it was in the river, it was frozen over. 42 00:02:47,855 --> 00:02:49,690 The undercurrent was so tough. 43 00:02:49,732 --> 00:02:51,442 There was ice all over the place. 44 00:02:52,276 --> 00:02:56,238 There was nothing to tell us where to look in the river, 45 00:02:56,822 --> 00:02:59,116 whether it was near the bridge still 46 00:02:59,575 --> 00:03:03,662 or whether it was all the way to the Mississippi. 47 00:03:04,288 --> 00:03:05,456 There was nothing we could do 48 00:03:05,498 --> 00:03:10,086 but wait until somebody found a body. 49 00:03:10,836 --> 00:03:15,883 There were in total 29 bodies which came out of that house, 50 00:03:17,468 --> 00:03:19,804 and three more were pulled from the river, 51 00:03:19,845 --> 00:03:21,806 but 4 months after his disappearance, 52 00:03:21,847 --> 00:03:24,642 Rob Piest was still unaccounted for. 53 00:03:25,810 --> 00:03:29,939 Then another body was found downriver from the I-55 bridge. 54 00:03:30,856 --> 00:03:32,942 The body of the 33rd suspected victim 55 00:03:32,983 --> 00:03:35,361 of John Wayne Gacy was taken to the Cook County 56 00:03:35,403 --> 00:03:37,071 morgue. 57 00:03:38,406 --> 00:03:44,537 From what I heard, it was challenging to identify the body 58 00:03:44,578 --> 00:03:46,455 because of the lapse of time 59 00:03:46,497 --> 00:03:49,083 and the condition of him being in the water. 60 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,462 A team of dental experts from Cook and Will County 61 00:03:53,504 --> 00:03:55,381 have identified the male white body 62 00:03:55,423 --> 00:03:56,799 recovered from the Illinois River 63 00:03:56,841 --> 00:03:59,635 this afternoon as that of missing Des Plaines 64 00:03:59,677 --> 00:04:02,054 youth 15-year-old Robert Piest. 65 00:04:05,349 --> 00:04:08,894 We had the last link, the 33rd body, 66 00:04:09,603 --> 00:04:11,981 but it was also terrible sorrow because I had become 67 00:04:12,023 --> 00:04:16,402 so close with the family that it was just heart-wrenching 68 00:04:17,111 --> 00:04:20,489 even to tell them that the body had been found. 69 00:04:37,715 --> 00:04:41,385 Rob Piest’s family was a very wonderful family, 70 00:04:41,844 --> 00:04:44,847 and I think everybody who worked on the stories heart 71 00:04:44,889 --> 00:04:47,558 goes out to them because of what they went through, 72 00:04:47,975 --> 00:04:49,935 but I think it was his brother who said, 73 00:04:49,977 --> 00:04:54,690 "Rob wanted to do something big, and if his disappearance 74 00:04:54,732 --> 00:04:57,068 and the investigation of his disappearance 75 00:04:57,109 --> 00:05:01,322 led to stopping this mad man from killing anyone else, 76 00:05:01,364 --> 00:05:04,116 Rob would have accomplished what he wanted to." 77 00:05:04,992 --> 00:05:09,205 We really feel that what happened was worthwhile 78 00:05:09,246 --> 00:05:12,666 from the point that it hopefully put an end to something, 79 00:05:13,125 --> 00:05:15,544 and now we’re gonna 80 00:05:15,586 --> 00:05:17,380 try to continue what he couldn’t finish, 81 00:05:17,421 --> 00:05:20,716 and hopefully, nothing will happen like this again. 82 00:05:23,886 --> 00:05:26,138 I think I took it back to the courthouse 83 00:05:26,806 --> 00:05:30,309 and was just more determined 84 00:05:30,351 --> 00:05:35,064 that this guy was not about to get off scot-free. 85 00:05:35,564 --> 00:05:41,612 This family was on my list for whom I had to work for. 86 00:05:50,454 --> 00:05:51,706 In his confession, 87 00:05:51,747 --> 00:05:53,124 Gacy admitted killing the young men 88 00:05:53,165 --> 00:05:55,668 after having sex with them, then burying 89 00:05:55,710 --> 00:05:57,503 most of the bodies under his house. 90 00:05:58,212 --> 00:06:02,007 Gacy told authorities where these bodies were buried. 91 00:06:02,049 --> 00:06:06,470 Gacy told authorities exactly who, why, where he found them, 92 00:06:06,971 --> 00:06:09,432 a wealth of information, in fact most of the information, 93 00:06:09,473 --> 00:06:12,101 since the victims couldn’t speak for themselves 94 00:06:12,143 --> 00:06:13,936 and their families really didn’t know 95 00:06:13,978 --> 00:06:17,440 for the most part anything about John Wayne Gacy. 96 00:06:17,481 --> 00:06:19,650 We had to find out from Gacy himself. 97 00:06:19,692 --> 00:06:21,527 And it was Gacy’s conversations, 98 00:06:22,153 --> 00:06:24,989 confessions to law-enforcement authorities 99 00:06:25,031 --> 00:06:28,075 that enabled us to find out exactly what happened. 100 00:06:28,951 --> 00:06:31,078 Though it was also very difficult to know 101 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,664 when to believe anything John Gacy said. 102 00:06:35,291 --> 00:06:36,542 I think one of headlines said 103 00:06:36,584 --> 00:06:38,377 that I was a homosexual mass murderer, 104 00:06:38,419 --> 00:06:39,837 confessed mass murderer. 105 00:06:39,879 --> 00:06:42,673 There is no confession, and we offered ... 106 00:06:43,966 --> 00:06:46,886 I offered as much as $10,000 if you can produce a confession 107 00:06:46,927 --> 00:06:48,679 where I confessed to a crime. 108 00:06:48,721 --> 00:06:51,515 The time that I was interrogated by the police officers, 109 00:06:51,557 --> 00:06:53,100 there was no stenographer. 110 00:06:53,142 --> 00:06:55,519 There was no tape recording. There was no videotaping. 111 00:06:56,353 --> 00:06:59,440 Nothing was ever taken down. Yet everywhere you will see, 112 00:06:59,482 --> 00:07:02,651 "There’s five confessions by John Wayne Gacy." 113 00:07:03,361 --> 00:07:05,696 If I confessed to something, then why wasn’t it videotaped? 114 00:07:05,738 --> 00:07:07,073 Why wasn’t it recorded? 115 00:07:07,114 --> 00:07:09,492 Why wasn’t a stenographer brought in, 116 00:07:09,533 --> 00:07:11,077 had it written up and had me sign it? 117 00:07:11,118 --> 00:07:13,245 There is no confessions in this case. 118 00:07:13,287 --> 00:07:15,831 First of all, it doesn’t have to be recorded. 119 00:07:15,873 --> 00:07:18,459 It’s nice if they allow it. He wouldn’t allow it. 120 00:07:19,210 --> 00:07:21,962 It’s even nicer if they allow it to be printed and then sign it, 121 00:07:22,004 --> 00:07:23,839 and he wouldn’t do that either. 122 00:07:23,881 --> 00:07:25,966 So what you have is a pure oral statement 123 00:07:26,008 --> 00:07:27,843 witnessed by a number of police officers, 124 00:07:27,885 --> 00:07:31,680 having written numerous and lengthy police reports 125 00:07:31,722 --> 00:07:35,142 with word-for-word documentation of what he said. 126 00:07:36,769 --> 00:07:38,896 Gacy confessed at least three times, 127 00:07:38,938 --> 00:07:41,649 but so every time, it was something different. 128 00:07:41,691 --> 00:07:44,735 He just kept trying to muddy the water. 129 00:07:45,361 --> 00:07:49,198 Gacy’s confessions were a result of various meetings. 130 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,828 And Gacy’s story about what happened would change. 131 00:07:54,495 --> 00:07:55,913 He was like a chameleon. 132 00:07:55,955 --> 00:07:57,915 He would say one thing, and then the color would change. 133 00:07:57,957 --> 00:08:00,418 He would say something else at another meeting. 134 00:08:00,918 --> 00:08:03,671 You have to know my brother as my brother 135 00:08:03,713 --> 00:08:05,881 and not the criminal to understand 136 00:08:05,923 --> 00:08:09,593 that he was like two different people. 137 00:08:11,011 --> 00:08:14,098 What sane person goes out and does something like this 138 00:08:14,140 --> 00:08:17,935 and then talks about it and confesses to it, 139 00:08:17,977 --> 00:08:19,937 then says he didn’t confess to it? 140 00:08:21,939 --> 00:08:26,944 There are no clear answers to anything about this case. 141 00:08:27,528 --> 00:08:29,739 It’s totally mind-boggling. 142 00:08:30,197 --> 00:08:32,408 It’d be kind of like a Rubik’s Cube, 143 00:08:32,450 --> 00:08:34,368 and you’re trying to get all the numbers together, 144 00:08:34,410 --> 00:08:38,456 and one just doesn’t want to go. And that’s how this is. 145 00:08:39,331 --> 00:08:41,792 Some of it just doesn’t make any sense at all. 146 00:08:42,585 --> 00:08:45,129 I don’t think it was something he was born with. 147 00:08:45,504 --> 00:08:50,384 I think something happened to him to have done this. 148 00:08:50,968 --> 00:08:54,305 But I just can’t figure out how he could be 149 00:08:54,346 --> 00:08:58,976 so smart and intelligent and then so evil. 150 00:09:11,030 --> 00:09:14,867 The judge did rule today that Gacy confessed voluntarily 151 00:09:14,909 --> 00:09:17,661 and that Des Plaines police had sufficient reason 152 00:09:17,703 --> 00:09:19,413 to arrest him when they picked him up. 153 00:09:19,455 --> 00:09:22,541 Both sides agree that there could be mountains of paperwork 154 00:09:22,583 --> 00:09:24,418 before the trial begins. 155 00:09:24,460 --> 00:09:26,003 Well, it was a huge case 156 00:09:26,045 --> 00:09:28,297 for the Cook County State’s Attorney’s Office. 157 00:09:28,339 --> 00:09:29,799 We had the largest mass murderer 158 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:31,342 in the history of the United States, 159 00:09:31,384 --> 00:09:34,095 and there was no doubt that the orders to be 160 00:09:34,136 --> 00:09:37,306 were going to be that the death penalty should be sought. 161 00:09:38,599 --> 00:09:41,227 Sam Amirante, Gacy’s attorney, 162 00:09:41,268 --> 00:09:44,814 who took Gacy on right after entering private practice, 163 00:09:45,356 --> 00:09:46,982 he was a political animal. 164 00:09:47,733 --> 00:09:52,488 And the publicity wasn’t going to hurt his beginning practice. 165 00:09:52,530 --> 00:09:53,739 It’s a tragic day 166 00:09:53,781 --> 00:09:55,991 in the American criminal justice system, 167 00:09:56,033 --> 00:09:59,078 in the American system of justice, period, 168 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,665 when a man cannot be brought into court to face his charges 169 00:10:02,707 --> 00:10:04,750 because of publicity or security reasons 170 00:10:04,792 --> 00:10:06,502 or any reason whatsoever. 171 00:10:06,544 --> 00:10:07,962 He was going to find any, 172 00:10:08,003 --> 00:10:13,426 anything that could try and interfere with the case 173 00:10:13,467 --> 00:10:16,262 or anything that was beneficial to his client. 174 00:10:24,395 --> 00:10:27,398 Some people would say, "You got 33 bodies. 175 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,692 There’s no way you can lose it, is there?" 176 00:10:30,151 --> 00:10:35,990 And there were others that made me think, not twice, 177 00:10:36,032 --> 00:10:39,827 but 100,000 times about how we could lose it. 178 00:10:40,786 --> 00:10:47,376 The state’s attorney asked me to handle the case. 179 00:10:48,711 --> 00:10:50,212 Very early on, 180 00:10:50,254 --> 00:10:52,715 we have to start thinking about an insanity defense. 181 00:10:53,382 --> 00:10:56,093 The evening that Gacy was under arrest 182 00:10:56,135 --> 00:10:59,096 and made his oral statements, his lawyers show up. 183 00:11:00,806 --> 00:11:03,851 Now, he had already made one statement 184 00:11:03,893 --> 00:11:05,686 without the lawyers being present. 185 00:11:06,228 --> 00:11:08,898 They, of course, haul him off and talk to him. 186 00:11:09,273 --> 00:11:10,608 So now he makes 187 00:11:10,649 --> 00:11:14,445 a series of statements with his attorneys present. 188 00:11:16,155 --> 00:11:18,199 We got into the Piest discussion. 189 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,078 At this time, then he told us that he took the body, 190 00:11:22,620 --> 00:11:26,916 slept with the body overnight, and we asked if ... 191 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:29,710 "Did you have sex with" ... 192 00:11:30,127 --> 00:11:32,380 He says, "I didn’t, but Jack might have." 193 00:11:33,547 --> 00:11:35,966 While Gacy was drawing his diagram, 194 00:11:36,425 --> 00:11:37,718 I kept asking questions, 195 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,471 and I was writing down everything he was saying. 196 00:11:40,513 --> 00:11:44,058 And when he was finished, he kind of looked at it 197 00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:46,811 and said, "Jack drew this." 198 00:11:49,105 --> 00:11:52,108 And I said, "Who’s Jack?" He said, "Jack Hanley." 199 00:11:52,650 --> 00:11:57,279 He starts talking about the killer being Jack Hanley. 200 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,617 And he would talk about Jack Hanley killing these kids. 201 00:12:02,159 --> 00:12:05,496 He’s trying to inject a multiple-personality disorder 202 00:12:06,706 --> 00:12:09,625 into his insanity defense. 203 00:12:10,626 --> 00:12:13,212 Manipulating, conning, what he always does. 204 00:12:14,463 --> 00:12:16,716 During one of the search warrants that I wrote, 205 00:12:16,757 --> 00:12:19,093 a book was found in Gacy’s attic. 206 00:12:19,135 --> 00:12:21,470 It was a book on criminal law and procedure. 207 00:12:21,929 --> 00:12:25,266 And I was told that the chapter on insanity defenses 208 00:12:25,307 --> 00:12:26,767 was bookmarked. 209 00:12:27,727 --> 00:12:32,314 So it dawned on me later, I was probably being exploited 210 00:12:32,356 --> 00:12:33,941 so he could get it into evidence, 211 00:12:33,983 --> 00:12:36,027 he was perhaps schizophrenic 212 00:12:36,068 --> 00:12:38,029 or had some mental disease or defect. 213 00:12:38,821 --> 00:12:42,408 And what better way to put an insanity defense out there 214 00:12:42,825 --> 00:12:44,160 than by making a statement 215 00:12:44,201 --> 00:12:47,329 and having some kid like me write every word 216 00:12:47,371 --> 00:12:49,915 that he was saying down. And then I’m going to testify. 217 00:12:49,957 --> 00:12:51,667 And I put his defense in for him. 218 00:12:52,585 --> 00:12:55,296 Gacy's lawyers claim he is a hopelessly sick madman 219 00:12:55,337 --> 00:12:58,174 who collected bodies and should be hospitalized for life. 220 00:12:58,632 --> 00:13:01,135 Prosecutors claim Gacy is a rational man 221 00:13:01,177 --> 00:13:02,762 who methodically planned the murders 222 00:13:02,803 --> 00:13:04,305 and should be sentenced to death. 223 00:13:04,764 --> 00:13:07,266 What I did not know about the insanity defense 224 00:13:07,308 --> 00:13:08,976 is that in the state of Illinois, 225 00:13:09,018 --> 00:13:11,479 when you plead not guilty by reason of insanity, 226 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,023 you’re saying that you committed the crime 227 00:13:15,274 --> 00:13:17,276 but that you were insane at the time. 228 00:13:17,318 --> 00:13:20,696 So it’s not a question of innocence or guilt anymore. 229 00:13:20,738 --> 00:13:23,074 What they’re trying to do is, your whole trial now 230 00:13:23,115 --> 00:13:24,950 becomes an insanity trial 231 00:13:25,451 --> 00:13:28,913 where you’re to decide whether a person is sane or insane. 232 00:13:29,538 --> 00:13:33,084 If somebody killed 33 people and buried 29 of them 233 00:13:33,125 --> 00:13:36,212 under his house, you have to be crazy. 234 00:13:37,713 --> 00:13:39,673 So that was a given going in. 235 00:13:40,549 --> 00:13:44,011 And our job was going to be to show them the difference 236 00:13:44,053 --> 00:13:47,640 between crazy and legally responsible. 237 00:13:57,817 --> 00:14:00,194 When you’re preparing for a case like this, 238 00:14:00,236 --> 00:14:02,113 you’re there early in the morning, 239 00:14:02,863 --> 00:14:07,243 and it’s pretty dark by the time you leave, 240 00:14:07,284 --> 00:14:09,286 no matter what season it is. 241 00:14:10,663 --> 00:14:13,624 But you can look outside, and the seasons are passing. 242 00:14:15,167 --> 00:14:18,295 But you’ve lost all track of what season it is 243 00:14:18,337 --> 00:14:21,340 or whether you could be going to a baseball game 244 00:14:21,382 --> 00:14:26,053 or whether you should be skiing or anything like that. 245 00:14:26,095 --> 00:14:27,763 It’s a time warp. 246 00:14:32,351 --> 00:14:35,021 John Wayne Gacy went on trial today in Chicago, 247 00:14:35,062 --> 00:14:38,858 charged with the sex murders of 33 young men and boys. 248 00:14:38,899 --> 00:14:41,318 Some relatives of the 22 identified victims 249 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,696 were in court for the opening statement. 250 00:14:43,738 --> 00:14:47,324 My mom and my dad and I, all three of us went, 251 00:14:47,366 --> 00:14:49,744 and my mother would go on the news 252 00:14:49,785 --> 00:14:53,706 as often as she could to prove that these kids 253 00:14:53,748 --> 00:14:58,586 were innocent young kids that didn’t deserve to die. 254 00:14:59,045 --> 00:15:00,421 If he can kill all those children, 255 00:15:00,463 --> 00:15:02,131 he should be dead too. 256 00:15:02,173 --> 00:15:04,675 If the childrens’ life didn’t mean anything to him, 257 00:15:05,217 --> 00:15:07,553 his life shouldn’t mean anything to this society, 258 00:15:08,054 --> 00:15:10,556 and that’s just how I feel for everybody. 259 00:15:10,598 --> 00:15:13,225 She believed that she had to be there 260 00:15:13,893 --> 00:15:15,686 to stand up for my brother 261 00:15:17,188 --> 00:15:20,024 because there were a lot of parents that didn’t come, 262 00:15:20,066 --> 00:15:23,986 but there were a small group. We came every day. 263 00:15:24,695 --> 00:15:27,573 At the time of the trial, I was working at a bank. 264 00:15:28,115 --> 00:15:29,700 And back in those days, 265 00:15:29,742 --> 00:15:32,244 the banks were closed on Wednesdays. 266 00:15:33,496 --> 00:15:37,249 And so every Wednesday, I was at the trial. 267 00:15:38,709 --> 00:15:44,090 It was very emotional, people sobbing, 268 00:15:44,924 --> 00:15:48,719 Most of them were parents, and here they’re sitting there 269 00:15:48,761 --> 00:15:53,432 listening to testimony on how their child got killed. 270 00:15:54,475 --> 00:15:57,103 It’s nothing anybody wants to hear. 271 00:15:58,187 --> 00:16:01,399 One witness fainted on the stand when the prosecution team 272 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,859 showed her a bracelet belonging to her son. 273 00:16:05,945 --> 00:16:08,823 You have 2 years to prepare for this, 274 00:16:08,864 --> 00:16:11,450 but I had no clue 275 00:16:11,992 --> 00:16:16,747 that we had to go on the stand and identify Gacy. 276 00:16:16,789 --> 00:16:20,543 That was very eerie to me, and my dad, 277 00:16:20,584 --> 00:16:23,587 the day that he had to get up on the stand, 278 00:16:24,338 --> 00:16:26,590 my father kept crying. 279 00:16:26,632 --> 00:16:30,845 And my mother kept saying, "Buck up. You can do this." 280 00:16:30,886 --> 00:16:33,639 And that was the first or the second day. 281 00:16:33,681 --> 00:16:36,308 My dad never went again after that. 282 00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:40,438 Early on, we were using this big exhibit 283 00:16:40,479 --> 00:16:42,273 with three-sided frames 284 00:16:42,314 --> 00:16:43,941 to put all the life and death photos 285 00:16:43,983 --> 00:16:47,153 in while the victim’s parents or whatever were testifying. 286 00:16:48,029 --> 00:16:51,532 And after we did five or six of them, the defense objected. 287 00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:55,578 And the judge said, "All right. Here’s the rule. 288 00:16:55,619 --> 00:16:59,832 State, if you’re talking about a particular victim, 289 00:17:00,499 --> 00:17:02,168 and you want to use that board, 290 00:17:02,209 --> 00:17:05,921 you can have that victim’s photo in the board but none others. 291 00:17:05,963 --> 00:17:07,631 When you get to closing arguments, 292 00:17:07,673 --> 00:17:10,676 you can do whatever you want." Fine, Judge. 293 00:17:11,260 --> 00:17:17,391 So when we finished, we now have a board with 22 empty frames. 294 00:17:17,433 --> 00:17:19,810 It looked to me like 22 open graves. 295 00:17:21,270 --> 00:17:24,774 There were were some victims who were still not identified. 296 00:17:26,025 --> 00:17:28,486 We went to trial on all 33 murders, 297 00:17:28,903 --> 00:17:34,909 22 being identified at the time that we went to trial. 298 00:17:35,451 --> 00:17:37,078 But some were nameless. 299 00:17:38,537 --> 00:17:41,665 We also had the crawl-space opening sawed out 300 00:17:41,707 --> 00:17:43,501 so we could use it as an exhibit in court. 301 00:17:43,542 --> 00:17:46,295 It became one my biggest tools, 302 00:17:46,337 --> 00:17:49,882 having that crawl-space opening available as an exhibit. 303 00:17:51,926 --> 00:17:54,095 John Gacy sat erect in his chair today, 304 00:17:54,136 --> 00:17:56,722 showing no apparent emotion as the prosecution team 305 00:17:56,764 --> 00:17:59,350 continued to call parents of the alleged victims. 306 00:17:59,767 --> 00:18:02,686 They were naming all the victims. 307 00:18:02,728 --> 00:18:07,024 Their pictures were there, and they were going through 308 00:18:07,066 --> 00:18:10,444 and putting a name to a face for the jury. 309 00:18:11,237 --> 00:18:14,448 And when they got to my brother, 310 00:18:17,576 --> 00:18:20,663 Gacy just kind of smirked and chuckled. 311 00:18:22,164 --> 00:18:24,875 It’s like, he was silent the whole time, 312 00:18:24,917 --> 00:18:27,545 but with my brother, he laughed. 313 00:18:29,797 --> 00:18:32,758 It was very difficult to look at him, 314 00:18:33,342 --> 00:18:36,554 but I remember seeing him sitting over there, 315 00:18:36,595 --> 00:18:38,347 and I kept thinking, 316 00:18:38,389 --> 00:18:42,268 "Boy, you really fooled so many people." 317 00:18:42,768 --> 00:18:45,771 I think he thought he would never be caught. 318 00:18:48,190 --> 00:18:50,359 Police told the court Gacy became friendly 319 00:18:50,401 --> 00:18:52,028 with a police-surveillance team 320 00:18:52,069 --> 00:18:54,071 that trailed him as part of the investigation 321 00:18:54,113 --> 00:18:57,074 into the disappearance of 15-year-old Robert Piest. 322 00:18:58,451 --> 00:19:00,244 Gacy and I had this relationship 323 00:19:00,286 --> 00:19:01,787 from the surveillance. 324 00:19:02,288 --> 00:19:04,957 When you’re there and you’re testifying, 325 00:19:05,708 --> 00:19:08,794 you’re impacted by what you’re saying, 326 00:19:08,836 --> 00:19:11,505 and you’re seeing the reaction of this jury, 327 00:19:12,006 --> 00:19:13,257 which affects you too 328 00:19:13,299 --> 00:19:15,843 because you’re answering your questions honestly, 329 00:19:15,885 --> 00:19:19,472 and when you're describing in detail what John Gacy did, 330 00:19:22,433 --> 00:19:24,143 you can see their reaction. 331 00:19:24,935 --> 00:19:27,563 One by one, the witnesses described how they found 332 00:19:27,605 --> 00:19:31,525 the remains of the victims, some buried on top of others, 333 00:19:31,567 --> 00:19:33,778 many with a piece of cloth in the mouth 334 00:19:33,819 --> 00:19:36,072 and some with ropes tied around the necks. 335 00:19:37,823 --> 00:19:40,618 We did learn that at the trial, 336 00:19:41,285 --> 00:19:44,413 Gacy would do different things to the boys, 337 00:19:44,455 --> 00:19:46,582 and one of the things they said 338 00:19:46,624 --> 00:19:49,168 that he would do this trick with cuffs. 339 00:19:49,210 --> 00:19:51,962 And I know it came out that he did something 340 00:19:52,004 --> 00:19:56,801 with my brother’s arms, put cuffs on him or something, 341 00:19:56,842 --> 00:20:01,013 and then he would put something on them, so they would pass out. 342 00:20:05,309 --> 00:20:09,522 Gacy could’ve had two personalities, but I don’t care. 343 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:12,983 Let’s put it this way. 344 00:20:13,025 --> 00:20:16,612 I believe somebody has to be insane to do what he did, 345 00:20:17,029 --> 00:20:21,575 but that’s too bad. You still killed 33 victims. 346 00:20:21,617 --> 00:20:26,205 And I don’t care if you were insane or not, he was wrong. 347 00:20:26,831 --> 00:20:31,669 He was wrong to destroy 33 families. 348 00:20:42,179 --> 00:20:43,848 What’s going on? 349 00:20:44,348 --> 00:20:50,396 [ Chatter ] 350 00:20:50,438 --> 00:20:55,026 It was becoming a media frenzy 351 00:20:55,067 --> 00:20:57,862 for finding anything relating to it. 352 00:20:59,113 --> 00:21:03,409 The "Chicago Tribune" was the first to track me down. 353 00:21:04,201 --> 00:21:06,996 And they interviewed me at the time. 354 00:21:08,247 --> 00:21:11,625 I believe the police read the the story in the "Tribune" 355 00:21:11,667 --> 00:21:13,335 and brought me in for questioning. 356 00:21:13,377 --> 00:21:15,880 And at some point, they told me that they would like me 357 00:21:15,921 --> 00:21:19,967 to testify as a prosecution witness. 358 00:21:20,009 --> 00:21:24,305 The victims who survived their encounters with Gacy 359 00:21:24,346 --> 00:21:27,641 became a crucial piece of the case against him. 360 00:21:28,559 --> 00:21:34,315 And they described indescribable events. 361 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,112 I came out, sat in, got sworn in, did what I did. 362 00:21:41,238 --> 00:21:46,243 My testimony was that one time in 1976, 363 00:21:46,911 --> 00:21:49,080 John came over in the evening. 364 00:21:49,830 --> 00:21:52,625 I was closer to 17 at that point. 365 00:21:53,459 --> 00:21:55,252 He knew my parents weren’t home. 366 00:21:57,046 --> 00:22:03,928 And it was about 10:30 at night. He said he had some stag films. 367 00:22:03,969 --> 00:22:05,554 That’s what they called them then. 368 00:22:05,596 --> 00:22:06,806 And it was on a ... 369 00:22:06,847 --> 00:22:08,766 He had a little projector with him. 370 00:22:09,809 --> 00:22:12,144 He brought that in, and he set that up. 371 00:22:13,771 --> 00:22:15,147 And then something he did ... 372 00:22:15,189 --> 00:22:17,608 He knew I was a high school wrestler, so he said, 373 00:22:17,650 --> 00:22:19,068 "Hey, come on, big wrestler guy." 374 00:22:19,110 --> 00:22:21,195 He started wrestling around with me. 375 00:22:23,572 --> 00:22:28,744 And at one point he gets a handcuff on one of my wrists. 376 00:22:30,371 --> 00:22:31,747 I fought valiantly, 377 00:22:31,789 --> 00:22:33,874 but he did get my other wrist in a handcuff. 378 00:22:34,417 --> 00:22:36,627 And he knocked me down to the floor. 379 00:22:37,420 --> 00:22:41,090 He unbuttoned my pants and pulled them down a little bit, 380 00:22:41,132 --> 00:22:45,136 but not my underwear, and then he left the room. 381 00:22:46,804 --> 00:22:48,264 And because I was fighting 382 00:22:48,305 --> 00:22:50,349 when he was trying to get that second cuff on me, 383 00:22:50,391 --> 00:22:53,102 I noticed that it wasn’t very tight. 384 00:22:54,103 --> 00:23:00,359 So I was able to pull my hand, quite painfully, to get it. 385 00:23:00,401 --> 00:23:02,111 I actually got out of the cuff, 386 00:23:06,157 --> 00:23:09,702 and he came back into the room a couple minutes later. 387 00:23:09,744 --> 00:23:15,791 And I hit him with a double-leg takedown, a wrestling move, 388 00:23:15,833 --> 00:23:18,002 and just dropped him right to the floor. 389 00:23:19,045 --> 00:23:22,381 I kept my weight on his back to keep him down. 390 00:23:22,423 --> 00:23:24,383 And I reached in his pocket, 391 00:23:24,884 --> 00:23:26,969 and I got the key to the handcuffs, 392 00:23:27,011 --> 00:23:29,680 and I got his arms behind him, handcuffed him. 393 00:23:29,722 --> 00:23:31,891 And he’s laying facedown on the floor, 394 00:23:31,932 --> 00:23:33,642 handcuffed behind his back. 395 00:23:34,351 --> 00:23:36,145 I let him stay there for a little while 396 00:23:36,187 --> 00:23:40,107 and made sure he calmed down. And then I unhandcuffed him, 397 00:23:40,149 --> 00:23:41,442 and to be perfectly honest with you, 398 00:23:41,484 --> 00:23:43,569 I think I freaked him out a little bit. 399 00:23:44,153 --> 00:23:46,739 And then he said a very unique thing. 400 00:23:46,781 --> 00:23:48,657 He said, and I’ll quote. He goes, 401 00:23:48,699 --> 00:23:52,328 "You’re the only one that not only got out of the handcuffs. 402 00:23:52,370 --> 00:23:54,038 You got them on me." 403 00:23:55,206 --> 00:24:00,211 Maybe part of my calm response to it was that at that point, 404 00:24:00,252 --> 00:24:02,546 I had a very optimistic view of humanity. 405 00:24:02,588 --> 00:24:05,758 He could’ve done something to overpower me 406 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,427 and continue on, but he didn’t. 407 00:24:09,387 --> 00:24:11,972 And I thank God for that, certainly. 408 00:24:12,473 --> 00:24:14,392 He gets this in his mind to do this, 409 00:24:14,433 --> 00:24:17,937 and he’s going to rape you and kill you 410 00:24:17,978 --> 00:24:19,355 and all these kind of things. 411 00:24:19,397 --> 00:24:21,857 And then something happens that snaps him back 412 00:24:21,899 --> 00:24:24,819 to the more normal personality. 413 00:24:25,236 --> 00:24:27,697 I suppose in retrospect, getting out of the handcuffs, 414 00:24:27,738 --> 00:24:30,950 the first thing I should’ve done is just run like hell. 415 00:24:37,373 --> 00:24:41,293 A lot of the early witnesses had already testified 416 00:24:41,335 --> 00:24:44,672 by the time I got there on 25th of February, 417 00:24:45,256 --> 00:24:48,300 and I was about to testify against a guy 418 00:24:48,342 --> 00:24:51,470 who, once upon a time, was one of my closest friends. 419 00:24:53,472 --> 00:24:56,976 The young man who was scheduled to testify before me 420 00:24:57,017 --> 00:25:00,730 was a kid from Waterloo that Gacy had molested. 421 00:25:01,439 --> 00:25:04,191 Donald was in the same hotel I was. 422 00:25:04,233 --> 00:25:06,944 He was literally right across the hall from me, 423 00:25:07,611 --> 00:25:11,407 and I saw him sitting out there, waiting to testify, 424 00:25:11,449 --> 00:25:16,120 and I knew immediately that he was just blind drunk, 425 00:25:16,620 --> 00:25:21,959 just blind drunk and on the edge of hysteria. 426 00:25:22,460 --> 00:25:24,253 I knew he had been drunk the night before 427 00:25:24,295 --> 00:25:28,215 because I found him knocking on my door at 3:30 in the morning. 428 00:25:29,133 --> 00:25:31,510 He was sitting out there in the hallway at the hotel, 429 00:25:31,552 --> 00:25:34,430 crying like a baby. He didn't want to be there. 430 00:25:34,472 --> 00:25:36,432 He didn't want to talk about this. 431 00:25:37,099 --> 00:25:38,934 The witness appeared unable to answer 432 00:25:38,976 --> 00:25:40,644 even the simplest questions. 433 00:25:41,479 --> 00:25:44,106 Judge Garippo finally dismissed the witness 434 00:25:44,148 --> 00:25:47,193 and ordered the jury to disregard what he had said. 435 00:25:48,402 --> 00:25:51,197 The judge did the right thing by excusing him 436 00:25:51,238 --> 00:25:54,658 because he was a survivor but not a complete survivor. 437 00:25:55,326 --> 00:25:57,495 I have a feeling his life was just ... 438 00:25:58,162 --> 00:26:00,581 It was an ongoing Gacy nightmare. 439 00:26:03,376 --> 00:26:06,796 After we got out of prison in the summer of ’70, 440 00:26:06,837 --> 00:26:09,965 I never physically laid eyes on John again 441 00:26:10,424 --> 00:26:14,720 until I testified against him in 1980. 442 00:26:15,179 --> 00:26:17,390 They brought me in to testify for two reasons. 443 00:26:17,431 --> 00:26:21,310 Number one, I knew John Gacy, and I knew him well. 444 00:26:21,352 --> 00:26:24,689 But, number two, I was already a recognized expert 445 00:26:24,730 --> 00:26:26,190 in criminal justice by then. 446 00:26:26,232 --> 00:26:29,110 I’d been working for the state for 8 years, 447 00:26:29,151 --> 00:26:31,612 dealing with prison inmates every day. 448 00:26:34,490 --> 00:26:37,410 By then, I knew about those 33 bodies. 449 00:26:38,369 --> 00:26:41,539 For several years, I had a recurring nightmare 450 00:26:42,039 --> 00:26:45,167 that a knock would come on my door 451 00:26:45,710 --> 00:26:47,169 in the middle of the night, 452 00:26:47,211 --> 00:26:51,590 and I’d open the door, and it would be John Gacy, 453 00:26:51,632 --> 00:26:55,302 who’d whip a cord around my neck and start to strangle me. 454 00:26:57,596 --> 00:27:00,266 I got on the witness stand, and John is sitting there, 455 00:27:00,307 --> 00:27:02,518 looking at me the whole time. 456 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,895 John’s sitting there, staring at me. 457 00:27:05,896 --> 00:27:07,606 And I’m looking right back at him 458 00:27:07,648 --> 00:27:11,402 because that’s how you deal with that kind of thing. 459 00:27:11,444 --> 00:27:15,114 If you have to face fear, the best way to deal with fear 460 00:27:15,156 --> 00:27:18,325 is to grab it and hold it until it’s not scary anymore. 461 00:27:19,285 --> 00:27:21,454 After I got off the witness stand, 462 00:27:21,495 --> 00:27:24,331 I did what I think every grown man would like 463 00:27:24,373 --> 00:27:27,710 to be able to do now and then. I went home to see my mother. 464 00:27:27,752 --> 00:27:34,925 And I vividly remember saying to her that he looked so ordinary. 465 00:27:36,343 --> 00:27:38,888 And my mother looked me in the eye and she said, 466 00:27:38,929 --> 00:27:42,099 "Who ever told you the devil was ugly?" 467 00:27:53,194 --> 00:27:55,821 John, how about Tim McCoy, the last one of the five 468 00:27:55,863 --> 00:27:57,323 you say you had personal knowledge of? 469 00:27:57,365 --> 00:27:58,699 Tim McCoy, even though he’s the last one, 470 00:27:58,741 --> 00:28:00,076 he’s the first one. 471 00:28:00,117 --> 00:28:01,702 He’s the first one actually? Right. 472 00:28:01,744 --> 00:28:03,412 The first of the 33? 473 00:28:04,330 --> 00:28:06,499 Tim McCoy was the first one, 474 00:28:07,083 --> 00:28:12,922 and Tim McCoy’s name wasn’t put on him until 1988. 475 00:28:13,464 --> 00:28:15,841 Prior to that, he was known as unknown number nine. 476 00:28:15,883 --> 00:28:17,259 Uh-huh. 477 00:28:17,301 --> 00:28:18,969 And he was buried by me in the crawl space. 478 00:28:19,011 --> 00:28:20,471 Uh-huh. 479 00:28:20,513 --> 00:28:22,098 That’s the only knowledge that I have of it. 480 00:28:22,139 --> 00:28:23,933 What was the circumstances of that? 481 00:28:24,350 --> 00:28:27,812 He was killed in the house in self-defense. 482 00:28:27,853 --> 00:28:30,398 And who killed him then? I stabbed him. 483 00:28:30,439 --> 00:28:33,192 Yeah, and it was ... Initially, it was self-defense? 484 00:28:33,234 --> 00:28:35,569 Why? Was he in the process of assaulting you or what? 485 00:28:35,611 --> 00:28:37,029 He was coming at me with a knife. 486 00:28:37,071 --> 00:28:38,656 Mm-hmm. 487 00:28:38,698 --> 00:28:40,491 I just took the knife away and twisted it in his hand, 488 00:28:40,533 --> 00:28:44,787 and that is what killed him. So ... 489 00:28:44,829 --> 00:28:46,247 At that point, 490 00:28:46,288 --> 00:28:48,499 you yourself did bury him then in the crawl space? 491 00:28:48,541 --> 00:28:51,752 Right, and if you notice, he’s under concrete. 492 00:28:51,794 --> 00:28:54,171 Did you bury any of the others in the crawl space? 493 00:28:54,213 --> 00:28:56,757 No. I had nothing ... I had no knowledge of them. 494 00:28:56,799 --> 00:28:59,677 Well, why is it that your first one is there 495 00:28:59,719 --> 00:29:03,514 and then twentysome others are buried down there as well? 496 00:29:03,556 --> 00:29:06,058 Did somebody know that you had done this with the first one, 497 00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:07,268 giving them the idea? 498 00:29:07,309 --> 00:29:08,519 More than likely when drinking 499 00:29:08,561 --> 00:29:10,896 and getting high with the others, yeah. 500 00:29:10,938 --> 00:29:12,481 Admitting it to them. 501 00:29:12,523 --> 00:29:14,942 So you feel others then followed your suit 502 00:29:14,984 --> 00:29:17,403 in using this as a burial ground? 503 00:29:18,195 --> 00:29:19,864 Without a doubt. Yeah. 504 00:29:20,656 --> 00:29:22,616 Since the beginning, there has been speculation 505 00:29:22,658 --> 00:29:26,037 that Gacy had an accomplice, and today for the first time, 506 00:29:26,078 --> 00:29:28,748 it was revealed that Gacy told a psychiatrist 507 00:29:28,789 --> 00:29:31,792 that someone besides himself knew the dead bodies 508 00:29:31,834 --> 00:29:33,627 were buried under the house. 509 00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:36,630 At the beginning, authorities were very, 510 00:29:36,672 --> 00:29:41,177 very interested in others who might have been accomplices, 511 00:29:41,218 --> 00:29:45,723 procurers or enablers or assistants. 512 00:29:46,932 --> 00:29:50,644 Michael Rossi and David Cram would dig trenches down 513 00:29:50,686 --> 00:29:55,483 in the crawl space. And Gacy did say that these boys 514 00:29:55,524 --> 00:29:57,693 should’ve have known what they were doing. 515 00:29:57,735 --> 00:30:00,279 He told them not to dig in a certain area. 516 00:30:00,321 --> 00:30:03,407 That certain area was where Gacy had buried a body, 517 00:30:03,449 --> 00:30:07,453 and Gacy said he became very, very angry with them 518 00:30:07,495 --> 00:30:09,914 for getting too close to that area. 519 00:30:10,790 --> 00:30:13,667 John Gacy was a liar, so anything he said, 520 00:30:13,709 --> 00:30:15,795 you had to take with a grain of salt. 521 00:30:16,504 --> 00:30:18,839 The investigators' gut feeling was that 522 00:30:18,881 --> 00:30:22,259 they might’ve been knowing a lot more than they were letting on, 523 00:30:22,301 --> 00:30:25,346 but they grilled them constantly. 524 00:30:25,388 --> 00:30:28,391 They corroborated things, and the bottom line was, 525 00:30:28,432 --> 00:30:30,684 no, they wound up as state witnesses. 526 00:30:30,726 --> 00:30:33,270 They were the ones who could put the description 527 00:30:33,312 --> 00:30:34,897 of the crawl space. 528 00:30:34,939 --> 00:30:38,192 They’re the ones who could say, "Yes, this is what we did, 529 00:30:38,234 --> 00:30:41,112 and we did it because he paid us to do it. 530 00:30:42,363 --> 00:30:44,532 This is why we dug the trenches. 531 00:30:44,573 --> 00:30:47,410 This is why we put the lime on there," 532 00:30:47,451 --> 00:30:50,287 and those are important things to get before a jury. 533 00:30:50,329 --> 00:30:53,290 And we just thought it outweighed any doubt 534 00:30:53,332 --> 00:30:54,834 that they may give the jury 535 00:30:54,875 --> 00:30:56,752 that they weren’t telling the truth about that. 536 00:30:57,253 --> 00:31:01,048 When those two young men, Michael Rossi and David Cram, 537 00:31:01,090 --> 00:31:03,384 wound up testifying against Gacy, 538 00:31:03,426 --> 00:31:05,803 Vivian Rosenberg was our reporter at the trial. 539 00:31:05,845 --> 00:31:07,388 She covered it. 540 00:31:07,430 --> 00:31:09,765 David Cram, 22, today’s star witness was a favorite 541 00:31:09,807 --> 00:31:13,018 and steady employee of John Gacy who lived with him for a month. 542 00:31:13,060 --> 00:31:15,604 It was when Cram demonstrated how he kneeled to dig 543 00:31:15,646 --> 00:31:17,898 two trenches in Gacy’s crawl space 544 00:31:17,940 --> 00:31:20,401 that some jurors stood up for a better look. 545 00:31:20,443 --> 00:31:21,944 In the center of the courtroom floor, 546 00:31:21,986 --> 00:31:25,281 the crawl-space entrance, taken from Gacy’s home. 547 00:31:25,322 --> 00:31:27,324 Cram spoke of the dirt mounds 548 00:31:27,366 --> 00:31:30,411 sitting nearby as he dug for 4 or 5 hours. 549 00:31:30,453 --> 00:31:32,371 He thought it was a plumbing project. 550 00:31:32,997 --> 00:31:36,876 Cram was able to talk about conversations with Gacy 551 00:31:37,293 --> 00:31:39,754 and that he knew where he wanted things dug. 552 00:31:39,795 --> 00:31:42,256 All of that goes toward showing that 553 00:31:42,298 --> 00:31:44,592 somebody was doing something sane at that time. 554 00:31:45,092 --> 00:31:47,803 In later testimony, Cram took the Fifth Amendment 555 00:31:47,845 --> 00:31:51,599 several times as both defense and prosecution asked him 556 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,976 if he ever had sex with John Gacy. 557 00:31:54,643 --> 00:31:58,647 The defendant kept his eyes on the youth all the time, smiling. 558 00:32:00,483 --> 00:32:02,276 Witness number two, Michael Rossi, 559 00:32:02,318 --> 00:32:04,445 was called late Tuesday afternoon. 560 00:32:04,487 --> 00:32:06,238 He said he moved in with John Gacy 561 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:07,740 when David Cram moved out. 562 00:32:08,157 --> 00:32:11,660 He said Gacy ordered him to pour hundreds of pounds of lime 563 00:32:11,702 --> 00:32:16,290 in the crawl space to get rid of what Gacy called the foul odor. 564 00:32:17,291 --> 00:32:19,126 Rossi and Gacy seemed to have 565 00:32:19,168 --> 00:32:21,295 kind of a father-son relationship, 566 00:32:21,337 --> 00:32:23,798 and later I found out police documented 567 00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:27,259 Rossi admitting to a sexual relationship with Gacy, 568 00:32:27,301 --> 00:32:29,220 but Rossi then denied it on the stand. 569 00:32:29,762 --> 00:32:32,139 Rossi denied that he had any involvement 570 00:32:32,181 --> 00:32:33,766 with the murders. 571 00:32:33,808 --> 00:32:37,311 I didn’t necessarily believe Rossi from the get-go. 572 00:32:37,353 --> 00:32:39,355 But he lawyered up right away. 573 00:32:39,397 --> 00:32:43,359 He was not cooperative with us at any time, 574 00:32:43,401 --> 00:32:45,361 to be honest with you. And it took quite a while 575 00:32:45,403 --> 00:32:49,323 to convince his side that he should testify. 576 00:32:50,658 --> 00:32:53,160 Rossi's legal representation alone 577 00:32:53,202 --> 00:32:56,038 was a newsworthy part of his courtroom appearance. 578 00:32:56,664 --> 00:32:58,207 Rossi was accompanied into court 579 00:32:58,249 --> 00:33:01,085 by former Cook County State’s Attorney Ed Hanrahan. 580 00:33:01,877 --> 00:33:05,923 Ed Hanrahan was a former Cook County State’s Attorney 581 00:33:05,965 --> 00:33:08,926 who was a prominent name in the Democratic party. 582 00:33:08,968 --> 00:33:10,761 I thought that it was odd. 583 00:33:10,803 --> 00:33:15,725 It would seem like a kid from the northwest side 584 00:33:15,766 --> 00:33:17,935 to get one of the most prominent names 585 00:33:17,977 --> 00:33:21,897 in the legal circles in Chicago as his attorney was unusual. 586 00:33:22,398 --> 00:33:26,819 There wasn’t a whole lot in the press about Michael Rossi, 587 00:33:26,861 --> 00:33:31,907 other than he was the owner of my brother’s car. 588 00:33:34,827 --> 00:33:39,081 Then he shows up to court with the best lawyer money can buy. 589 00:33:39,749 --> 00:33:43,461 Rossi was involved in a slip-up Gacy made, 590 00:33:44,378 --> 00:33:46,922 taking victim John Szyc’s car 591 00:33:47,798 --> 00:33:51,844 and transferring the title over to Rossi. 592 00:33:52,845 --> 00:33:54,764 I never heard the name Mike Rossi. 593 00:33:54,805 --> 00:33:57,516 It wasn’t like he was a friend of my brother’s or anything, 594 00:33:58,225 --> 00:34:03,230 so it’s like, "Well, why does this guy have my brother’s car?" 595 00:34:04,023 --> 00:34:07,443 It just didn’t make sense. If he bought the car from him, 596 00:34:07,485 --> 00:34:09,945 he should have at least known him a little bit. 597 00:34:11,822 --> 00:34:14,825 The car was supposedly sold to Gacy. 598 00:34:15,451 --> 00:34:18,245 Gacy then sold the car to Mike Rossi, 599 00:34:18,788 --> 00:34:20,706 so that would’ve, quote, 600 00:34:20,748 --> 00:34:25,669 explained how Mike Rossi had no clue who my brother was. 601 00:34:27,171 --> 00:34:28,381 Michael Rossi was driving 602 00:34:28,422 --> 00:34:29,924 the car of one of Gacy’s victims, 603 00:34:29,965 --> 00:34:32,468 and Gacy said that he told the young man, 604 00:34:32,510 --> 00:34:34,595 "The last owner of this car is dead." 605 00:34:34,637 --> 00:34:39,642 I just want to highlight on John Szyc. 606 00:34:40,184 --> 00:34:42,436 They want to make such an issue over John Szyc 607 00:34:42,478 --> 00:34:43,813 and his disappearance. 608 00:34:43,854 --> 00:34:46,107 I think he was killed for his car, personally. 609 00:34:46,148 --> 00:34:50,736 And your personal knowledge of the Szyc case, then, is ... 610 00:34:50,778 --> 00:34:52,530 My personal knowledge of the Szyc case 611 00:34:52,571 --> 00:34:55,116 is that I had come home, 612 00:34:55,616 --> 00:34:57,827 and Szyc and Rossi were at the house. 613 00:34:57,868 --> 00:34:59,620 I had a few drinks. I went to bed. 614 00:34:59,662 --> 00:35:03,457 Went I woke up the next morning, Rossi was sleeping on the couch, 615 00:35:03,499 --> 00:35:05,167 and Szyc was dead on the floor. 616 00:35:05,751 --> 00:35:10,756 I went about my own business, and he was gone later on. 617 00:35:10,798 --> 00:35:12,466 And where did he go? Where did he end up? 618 00:35:12,508 --> 00:35:14,093 I assume he ended up in the crawl space. 619 00:35:14,135 --> 00:35:16,262 Did you see him being transported down there? 620 00:35:16,303 --> 00:35:20,099 No, wasn’t present, didn’t do the transporting. 621 00:35:20,141 --> 00:35:22,560 But when he was dead, he was dead on the floor? 622 00:35:22,601 --> 00:35:24,562 He was dead on the floor, yes, in the hallway. 623 00:35:24,603 --> 00:35:27,106 Did you have a conversation with anybody about that? 624 00:35:27,148 --> 00:35:30,651 No. In other words, I just kept my mouth shut 625 00:35:30,693 --> 00:35:32,153 because I didn’t want to get involved. 626 00:35:32,194 --> 00:35:33,404 Mm-hmm. 627 00:35:33,446 --> 00:35:34,905 My idea was to just stay out of it. 628 00:35:34,947 --> 00:35:36,115 Mm-hmm. 629 00:35:36,157 --> 00:35:38,117 John Wayne Gacy was a pathological liar. 630 00:35:39,201 --> 00:35:41,829 If Rossi and Cram were involved in the murders, 631 00:35:42,538 --> 00:35:46,167 then Gacy would’ve told us that up front 632 00:35:46,208 --> 00:35:49,837 if he thought it would help him. Both of them denied 633 00:35:49,879 --> 00:35:54,175 being part of the scheme to kill or bury bodies. 634 00:35:54,842 --> 00:35:59,805 But I would have to think that they had reason to suspect 635 00:35:59,847 --> 00:36:01,849 they were in the presence of evil 636 00:36:01,891 --> 00:36:04,685 and doing something that they shouldn’t be doing. 637 00:36:04,727 --> 00:36:07,730 I suspect that they knew more than they were letting on. 638 00:36:10,066 --> 00:36:13,194 I think Gacy killed them. There’s no doubt there. 639 00:36:13,235 --> 00:36:14,570 I’m not questioning that. 640 00:36:14,612 --> 00:36:18,449 But I think he had assistance in burying them. 641 00:36:19,784 --> 00:36:21,911 He could barely fit down there himself. 642 00:36:22,286 --> 00:36:25,456 If he had to have somebody else dig the hole for him, 643 00:36:25,498 --> 00:36:27,917 how is he burying the body by himself? 644 00:36:28,751 --> 00:36:30,961 He would have just dug the hole himself, 645 00:36:31,420 --> 00:36:33,130 and nobody would’ve known. 646 00:36:33,923 --> 00:36:37,176 So the stories don’t all connect. 647 00:36:38,594 --> 00:36:40,304 The stories don’t all connect. 648 00:36:41,055 --> 00:36:43,724 The state has rested its case in the trial 649 00:36:43,766 --> 00:36:46,227 of alleged mass murderer John Wayne Gacy. 650 00:36:46,811 --> 00:36:49,563 John Gacy’s attorneys began their defense 651 00:36:49,605 --> 00:36:50,940 and their first witness 652 00:36:50,981 --> 00:36:53,526 was an alleged Gacy victim, Jeff Rignall. 653 00:36:53,943 --> 00:36:56,404 Rignall told the court that he met John Gacy 654 00:36:56,445 --> 00:36:58,489 March 21st, 1978. 655 00:36:58,989 --> 00:37:01,075 He said that Gacy offered him marijuana 656 00:37:01,117 --> 00:37:04,120 and then drugged him by placing a rag over his face. 657 00:37:05,287 --> 00:37:06,914 So Rignall comes in, 658 00:37:06,956 --> 00:37:10,209 and he’s going to be a witness for the prosecution, 659 00:37:10,251 --> 00:37:11,919 one of our living victims. 660 00:37:12,878 --> 00:37:14,255 I don’t know if he’d mentioned it 661 00:37:14,296 --> 00:37:15,923 or someone had told me 662 00:37:15,965 --> 00:37:18,008 that there was a book in the offing. 663 00:37:19,009 --> 00:37:20,428 I said Jeff, 664 00:37:20,469 --> 00:37:22,638 I’m not going to have the defense cross-examining you 665 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,433 out of something that you said in your book that’s different 666 00:37:25,474 --> 00:37:27,184 from what you say on the stand, 667 00:37:27,643 --> 00:37:29,729 and regardless of which is correct, 668 00:37:31,355 --> 00:37:33,065 there’s just no reason for that. 669 00:37:34,025 --> 00:37:36,569 That’s your decision, but I’m just telling you up front. 670 00:37:36,610 --> 00:37:38,487 If you put a book out, 671 00:37:39,530 --> 00:37:41,991 you’re not going to be my witness, end of story. 672 00:37:42,658 --> 00:37:44,368 "Oh, yeah. I understand. I understand." 673 00:37:44,410 --> 00:37:46,162 Of course, he puts the book out. 674 00:37:47,288 --> 00:37:49,373 So I said, "We’re not putting you on." 675 00:37:50,416 --> 00:37:54,503 Jeff wanted to testify for the prosecution, 676 00:37:56,172 --> 00:37:59,258 but when he found out that they weren’t going to call him, 677 00:37:59,675 --> 00:38:01,343 he was very upset. 678 00:38:02,011 --> 00:38:05,639 And when he found out that the defense would call him, 679 00:38:06,682 --> 00:38:09,268 he decided he would definitely testify 680 00:38:09,310 --> 00:38:11,979 so he could get the story out. 681 00:38:12,021 --> 00:38:15,941 It was so unbelievable that I blotted it out 682 00:38:15,983 --> 00:38:19,820 and found it hard to believe myself that it happened to me, 683 00:38:19,862 --> 00:38:23,032 and that's why I persisted on my own 684 00:38:23,074 --> 00:38:25,701 in finding the man who had done this to me, 685 00:38:25,743 --> 00:38:28,913 even though the police refused to acknowledge 686 00:38:28,954 --> 00:38:31,207 or believe anything that I told them. 687 00:38:31,832 --> 00:38:34,335 Rignall said that he woke up in Gacy’s house 688 00:38:34,377 --> 00:38:35,669 with the suburban contractor 689 00:38:35,711 --> 00:38:38,089 standing behind a bar mixing a drink. 690 00:38:38,672 --> 00:38:41,384 Rignall said that he was in a semiconscious state, 691 00:38:41,425 --> 00:38:43,177 but he heard John Gacy say, 692 00:38:43,219 --> 00:38:45,554 "I’d just as soon kill you as look at you." 693 00:38:46,180 --> 00:38:49,058 The defense thought Jeff was a perfect witness 694 00:38:49,517 --> 00:38:53,562 because all along, he said, "That man had to be crazy 695 00:38:54,355 --> 00:38:59,735 in order to do these horrific deeds to people." 696 00:39:01,028 --> 00:39:03,197 Rignall described how Gacy stretched his arms 697 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,199 across a two-by-four as he performed 698 00:39:05,241 --> 00:39:08,202 various deviant acts before chloroforming him 699 00:39:08,244 --> 00:39:10,746 once again and dumping him in a city park. 700 00:39:11,205 --> 00:39:14,333 When Jeff was testifying, he could get through part of it, 701 00:39:14,750 --> 00:39:19,004 and he would just nervously almost collapse. 702 00:39:19,046 --> 00:39:21,841 He started to describe that, "He handcuffed me, 703 00:39:21,882 --> 00:39:25,469 chloroformed me, poked me, beat me." 704 00:39:26,095 --> 00:39:30,057 He got so upset describing things that he threw up 705 00:39:30,099 --> 00:39:33,394 all over the courthouse. And they had to close 706 00:39:33,436 --> 00:39:35,730 the courthouse down in order to clean it up. 707 00:39:35,771 --> 00:39:37,273 Rignall collapsed on the witness stand, 708 00:39:37,314 --> 00:39:40,067 and deputies hurried him out of the courtroom. 709 00:39:40,109 --> 00:39:44,613 And he was able to proceed with his testimony after that. 710 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,284 On the stand today, after Judge Garippo called a recess, 711 00:39:48,325 --> 00:39:51,829 Rignall revealed something that he did not say in our interview. 712 00:39:51,871 --> 00:39:54,498 He told the court a third person was in the Gacy house 713 00:39:54,540 --> 00:39:57,418 the night he says he was raped, and he said it appeared 714 00:39:57,460 --> 00:40:00,629 to be a man with light hair parted in the middle. 715 00:40:02,631 --> 00:40:04,300 Where Jeff was being tortured, 716 00:40:05,009 --> 00:40:07,303 there was a doorway behind him. 717 00:40:07,344 --> 00:40:11,307 And it had a glass-type partition window in it. 718 00:40:13,934 --> 00:40:16,437 He could tell that there was a light that switched on 719 00:40:16,479 --> 00:40:18,064 because it was darker 720 00:40:18,105 --> 00:40:20,608 and then all of a sudden a little bit lighter. 721 00:40:20,649 --> 00:40:24,278 Jeff thought, "Maybe there’s somebody else in here." 722 00:40:27,406 --> 00:40:33,162 And then he got beat up and chloroformed, 723 00:40:33,829 --> 00:40:35,706 and the light was gone. 724 00:40:36,999 --> 00:40:43,339 Jeff testified that he thought he came to 725 00:40:44,090 --> 00:40:45,758 while he was being molested 726 00:40:46,217 --> 00:40:52,181 and that there was another person giving him oral sex, 727 00:40:53,349 --> 00:40:56,977 with kind of a light hair parted in the center. 728 00:40:57,019 --> 00:40:59,355 By my medical records and by my doctors. 729 00:40:59,397 --> 00:41:02,692 we feel that I was abused by more than one person. 730 00:41:03,776 --> 00:41:04,944 I kind of find it hard 731 00:41:04,985 --> 00:41:07,988 to see that Gacy did all that by himself. 732 00:41:15,663 --> 00:41:17,289 The defense established today 733 00:41:17,331 --> 00:41:21,001 that the man accused of 33 murders had a stormy childhood. 734 00:41:21,836 --> 00:41:25,881 His mother, Mrs. Marion Gacy, testified on her son’s behalf. 735 00:41:27,508 --> 00:41:29,510 My mom testified first. 736 00:41:30,386 --> 00:41:35,975 She wasn’t a well person, always had to use a cane or a walker. 737 00:41:36,016 --> 00:41:37,810 She said that John was a sleepwalker 738 00:41:37,852 --> 00:41:39,895 when he was only 3 years old, 739 00:41:39,937 --> 00:41:41,814 and a grammar school teacher recommended 740 00:41:41,856 --> 00:41:43,983 that he be transferred to a special school 741 00:41:44,025 --> 00:41:46,569 for what she called disabled kids. 742 00:41:46,610 --> 00:41:48,154 She said that he was hospitalized 743 00:41:48,195 --> 00:41:50,031 3 weeks with a head injury. 744 00:41:50,865 --> 00:41:53,159 He worked at a grocery store. 745 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,494 He fell down three flights of stairs, 746 00:41:55,870 --> 00:41:57,538 and he had hit his head, 747 00:41:57,580 --> 00:42:01,333 and then he started having episodes with passing out. 748 00:42:02,376 --> 00:42:04,837 John, let’s step back to your childhood. 749 00:42:04,879 --> 00:42:07,131 What was your state of health as a child? 750 00:42:07,590 --> 00:42:08,841 At the age of 10, I was told 751 00:42:08,883 --> 00:42:12,094 I had an enlarged bottle-neck heart, okay? 752 00:42:12,136 --> 00:42:15,681 And so I had a tendency to pass out a lot. 753 00:42:15,723 --> 00:42:17,099 How about childhood illnesses, 754 00:42:17,141 --> 00:42:19,185 did you have any ... I mean accidents, rather, 755 00:42:19,226 --> 00:42:20,644 any sort of injuries or accidents? 756 00:42:20,686 --> 00:42:22,021 I was hit with a ... 757 00:42:22,063 --> 00:42:23,814 When I went to the other vocational school, 758 00:42:23,856 --> 00:42:25,858 when I first went to the vocational school, 759 00:42:25,900 --> 00:42:27,276 I got hit with a park swing 760 00:42:27,318 --> 00:42:29,862 in the side of the head, caused a mastoid. 761 00:42:29,904 --> 00:42:33,991 At what age was that, approximately? 762 00:42:34,784 --> 00:42:36,202 Fourteen, I believe. 763 00:42:36,243 --> 00:42:37,745 Got hit with a swing, were you out, unconscious? 764 00:42:37,787 --> 00:42:39,246 Yeah. I was taken to a medical clinic. 765 00:42:39,288 --> 00:42:40,456 Mm-hmm. 766 00:42:40,498 --> 00:42:41,999 That was at the time ... 767 00:42:42,041 --> 00:42:44,251 That’s when they started saying that I had epilepsy. 768 00:42:44,293 --> 00:42:46,837 Did you have any episodes ... Seizures? 769 00:42:46,879 --> 00:42:48,214 Seizures, things of that nature? 770 00:42:48,255 --> 00:42:50,424 Yes. Seizures were, according to the doctor, 771 00:42:50,466 --> 00:42:53,386 they claimed that when I have an epileptic seizure, 772 00:42:53,427 --> 00:42:57,139 I had 800 times my own strength, or 800 pounds of strength. 773 00:42:58,724 --> 00:43:02,228 Gacy’s mother said that Gacy passed out all of the time 774 00:43:02,269 --> 00:43:04,230 and had to be put in a straitjacket one day 775 00:43:04,271 --> 00:43:07,066 when he became violent. Spectators in the courtroom 776 00:43:07,108 --> 00:43:09,568 showed what appeared to be sympathy for the woman 777 00:43:09,610 --> 00:43:13,030 when told the court that her husband was a mean, abusive man. 778 00:43:13,447 --> 00:43:15,783 I kind of look back because we always called 779 00:43:15,825 --> 00:43:17,785 my dad Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. 780 00:43:18,494 --> 00:43:20,454 When he’d go downstairs and drink, 781 00:43:20,496 --> 00:43:22,707 he always came up as another person. 782 00:43:23,541 --> 00:43:27,086 He would be angry and upset about something. 783 00:43:27,128 --> 00:43:31,298 And no matter what we said or did, he would blow up. 784 00:43:32,466 --> 00:43:35,803 Have you ever been sexually abused by anybody? 785 00:43:36,220 --> 00:43:41,308 At the age of 9, there was a contractor who was ... 786 00:43:41,350 --> 00:43:43,102 Building contractor? ... 787 00:43:43,144 --> 00:43:44,854 building a house next door, and he used to pick me up 788 00:43:44,895 --> 00:43:46,605 and take me for rides 789 00:43:46,647 --> 00:43:48,315 and always wanted to show me wrestling holds, 790 00:43:48,357 --> 00:43:51,152 was always pinning my head in between his legs. 791 00:43:51,193 --> 00:43:52,987 But at the time, I did not look at it as sexual. 792 00:43:53,029 --> 00:43:54,989 He was showing me wrestling holds where my head 793 00:43:55,031 --> 00:43:56,449 was always constantly pinned 794 00:43:56,490 --> 00:43:58,492 between his legs or under his legs. 795 00:43:58,951 --> 00:44:00,494 The guy was in our neighborhood 796 00:44:00,536 --> 00:44:03,164 probably for over a year. 797 00:44:03,914 --> 00:44:07,001 And my dad and him became friends. 798 00:44:08,294 --> 00:44:10,880 And sooner or later the guy asked 799 00:44:10,921 --> 00:44:14,050 if he could take John to go to the movies, 800 00:44:14,091 --> 00:44:16,886 and it surprises me that my dad would have said, 801 00:44:16,927 --> 00:44:18,596 "Yeah, that’s okay." 802 00:44:19,055 --> 00:44:24,185 But I remember my dad being extremely mad 803 00:44:24,852 --> 00:44:26,645 and talking about his gun. 804 00:44:26,687 --> 00:44:31,901 He had a little pistol, and that he was going to shoot this guy. 805 00:44:32,401 --> 00:44:37,531 And then as I got older, I had asked my mom about it. 806 00:44:38,282 --> 00:44:41,327 My mom said, "Well, when John was younger, 807 00:44:41,369 --> 00:44:43,829 this guy did something to him. 808 00:44:43,871 --> 00:44:47,625 And it made Dad want to kill the guy." 809 00:44:48,084 --> 00:44:51,003 I began to wonder, "Was that the start 810 00:44:51,045 --> 00:44:53,172 of something that had happened to him? 811 00:44:54,590 --> 00:44:58,636 Did he then think he had to be this person?" 812 00:44:59,553 --> 00:45:01,680 What the defense was trying to do was to show 813 00:45:01,722 --> 00:45:03,349 that he had been abused 814 00:45:03,391 --> 00:45:06,685 and that that was the cause of his insanity. 815 00:45:07,228 --> 00:45:09,397 I felt very sorry for the mother. 816 00:45:10,231 --> 00:45:12,024 Later she broke down and cried, 817 00:45:12,066 --> 00:45:14,985 saying "I still don’t believe any of it. 818 00:45:15,027 --> 00:45:17,071 I’d just like to erase everything." 819 00:45:19,156 --> 00:45:21,117 When she was finished, I testified. 820 00:45:21,701 --> 00:45:26,706 You walk out there, and you get in the witness thing, 821 00:45:26,747 --> 00:45:29,291 and after they swear you in, you sit down, 822 00:45:29,333 --> 00:45:31,001 and some of the questions and stuff 823 00:45:31,043 --> 00:45:33,337 were really about his childhood, 824 00:45:33,379 --> 00:45:36,465 about, how did I see his childhood and him growing up? 825 00:45:36,507 --> 00:45:39,218 Asking about if I had noticed changes. 826 00:45:39,677 --> 00:45:42,263 I still lean toward something happened, 827 00:45:42,304 --> 00:45:45,599 and somehow, he had two personalities. 828 00:45:47,059 --> 00:45:49,979 There’s got to be two sides. But why? 829 00:45:50,479 --> 00:45:54,859 Why all of a sudden such a big difference in character? 830 00:45:55,943 --> 00:46:00,114 Did the knocks in his head, falling down the stairs, 831 00:46:00,656 --> 00:46:03,284 was it more than just a little blood clot? 832 00:46:04,243 --> 00:46:06,245 If you wanted a character witness, 833 00:46:06,287 --> 00:46:08,122 I guess I was a character witness. 834 00:46:09,081 --> 00:46:13,669 But you have all these eyes on you, all these parents, 835 00:46:13,711 --> 00:46:20,926 siblings, looking at you. All we wanted to do was, 836 00:46:20,968 --> 00:46:23,763 we wanted to apologize to the families. 837 00:46:24,805 --> 00:46:28,601 We wanted them to know that their hurt was our hurt too. 838 00:46:32,813 --> 00:46:35,358 The defense has rested its case in the trial 839 00:46:35,399 --> 00:46:37,610 of accused mass murderer John Wayne Gacy, 840 00:46:37,651 --> 00:46:41,030 this coming after another day of psychiatric testimony. 841 00:46:41,072 --> 00:46:43,449 In the end, the trial was basically 842 00:46:43,491 --> 00:46:47,578 was competing psychiatrist evaluations of Gacy. 843 00:46:47,620 --> 00:46:51,082 On the one hand, you had those who said he was absolutely sane 844 00:46:51,123 --> 00:46:52,666 and responsible for his actions. 845 00:46:52,708 --> 00:46:56,295 On the other, they said that there was no way 846 00:46:56,337 --> 00:46:59,340 someone who was sane could do what he did. 847 00:47:03,469 --> 00:47:06,305 If you have one, two or three psychiatrists 848 00:47:06,347 --> 00:47:08,432 that are willing to say that, 849 00:47:08,474 --> 00:47:15,064 "I find that someone had a disease that made him insane 850 00:47:15,648 --> 00:47:17,024 at a certain time, 851 00:47:17,066 --> 00:47:21,654 but he could in fact act normal during the other times," 852 00:47:21,696 --> 00:47:25,783 it’s hard to contradict that expert. 853 00:47:26,659 --> 00:47:29,995 I was very worried that we would not meet our burden 854 00:47:30,037 --> 00:47:31,622 of beyond a reasonable doubt, 855 00:47:31,664 --> 00:47:35,251 and he may be found not guilty or you may get a hung jury. 856 00:47:39,922 --> 00:47:43,217 Let’s not forget serial killers are pretty smart people. 857 00:47:44,135 --> 00:47:47,513 He was the kind of guy that would be totally honest with you 858 00:47:47,555 --> 00:47:50,516 if he knew you already knew or were going to find out. 859 00:47:53,269 --> 00:47:55,104 After he was charged with murder, 860 00:47:55,604 --> 00:47:57,982 I drove him from the Des Plaines Police Station 861 00:47:58,024 --> 00:47:59,692 to the Cook County Jail. 862 00:48:03,070 --> 00:48:04,864 On the way there, "John," I says, 863 00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,408 "How many people did you really kill?" 864 00:48:07,950 --> 00:48:10,494 He says, "Well, I told my attorneys 30-some-odd." 865 00:48:10,536 --> 00:48:12,997 He says, "You guys know about, what, 33?" 866 00:48:13,873 --> 00:48:16,417 I says, "Yeah. Are there more?" He says, "Well, you know what?" 867 00:48:16,459 --> 00:48:18,419 He says, "Forty-five sounds like a good number." 868 00:48:18,461 --> 00:48:21,172 I said, "Well, where are they?" 869 00:48:21,213 --> 00:48:24,800 He said, "No. That’s your job. You got to find out." 870 00:48:26,510 --> 00:48:31,057 We had 33, so that would mean obviously there’s 12 more 871 00:48:31,098 --> 00:48:32,767 somewhere.