1 00:00:08,446 --> 00:00:10,948 I was 19 when I ran away, and that was in ’80. 2 00:00:11,407 --> 00:00:15,536 Not ’80, ’61. 3 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:17,538 I went to Las Vegas for 3 months. 4 00:00:17,580 --> 00:00:18,622 Mm-hmm. 5 00:00:18,664 --> 00:00:19,999 Took off, took my car and left. 6 00:00:20,041 --> 00:00:21,500 Yeah. 7 00:00:21,542 --> 00:00:25,087 I walked for Palm Mortuary being the night man 8 00:00:25,129 --> 00:00:28,257 picking up bodies at the hospitals and stuff for them. 9 00:00:28,299 --> 00:00:29,759 I worked as night man only. 10 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:31,886 I didn’t have nothing to do with the bodies, 11 00:00:31,927 --> 00:00:33,763 all this talk that I slept with the dead ones 12 00:00:33,804 --> 00:00:37,850 or had sex with dead bodies, there’s no truth to any of that. 13 00:00:37,892 --> 00:00:39,685 You did in the mortuary, didn’t you? 14 00:00:39,727 --> 00:00:41,937 I lived in the mortuary, yes, but not in the embalming room. 15 00:00:41,979 --> 00:00:45,024 I mean, they make it sounds like I slept in the crypts with them, 16 00:00:45,066 --> 00:00:48,319 and I never climbed into a coffin or anything like that. 17 00:00:48,778 --> 00:00:51,781 That is so damn ridiculous. It’s the same thing. 18 00:00:51,822 --> 00:00:54,575 The contention is that I slept all night with Robert Piest. 19 00:00:54,617 --> 00:00:56,827 If you want to say I slept in the same house with a dead body, 20 00:00:56,869 --> 00:00:59,455 okay, fine. I’ll buy that, but in the same room, 21 00:00:59,497 --> 00:01:03,084 no, and besides, the dead won’t bother you. 22 00:01:04,001 --> 00:01:06,462 It’s the living you’ve got to worry about. 23 00:01:49,839 --> 00:01:50,965 The case, which some thought would never be tried 24 00:01:51,006 --> 00:01:52,341 in the courts, 25 00:01:52,383 --> 00:01:54,552 is now winding down to the last few days. 26 00:01:55,177 --> 00:01:56,721 Gacy’s attorney, Sam Amirante, 27 00:01:56,762 --> 00:01:59,557 told the jury what he had been trying to prove all along: 28 00:02:00,015 --> 00:02:03,644 that John Gacy is insane and has been for a long time. 29 00:02:04,061 --> 00:02:05,730 Amirante appealed to the jury, 30 00:02:05,771 --> 00:02:07,648 saying that this is the only country 31 00:02:07,690 --> 00:02:09,734 in which John Gacy could get a fair trial. 32 00:02:10,192 --> 00:02:14,030 The defense says Gacy wasn’t responsible for his actions. 33 00:02:14,447 --> 00:02:16,782 The prosecution wants the death penalty. 34 00:02:17,408 --> 00:02:19,535 The prosecution gets the last say 35 00:02:20,077 --> 00:02:22,163 because it was our burden of proof, 36 00:02:22,204 --> 00:02:26,083 and Bill Kunkle, my partner, was dynamite on that. 37 00:02:27,251 --> 00:02:30,254 I looked over to where Gacy was sitting at counsel table. 38 00:02:30,296 --> 00:02:34,717 I said, "If you want to show this man, this killer mercy," 39 00:02:35,718 --> 00:02:38,929 and I just stopped, walked over to the victim board, 40 00:02:38,971 --> 00:02:41,432 which was right behind the crawl-space opening 41 00:02:41,474 --> 00:02:43,350 directly in front of the jury, 42 00:02:44,643 --> 00:02:47,229 and without saying anything, began to rip each photo 43 00:02:47,271 --> 00:02:49,607 out of the frame with a loud noise 44 00:02:49,648 --> 00:02:52,068 and walked over in front of the crawl-space opening, 45 00:02:52,109 --> 00:02:55,029 directly in front of the jury and eyeballed the jury, 46 00:02:55,738 --> 00:02:58,657 and said, "If you want to show this killer mercy, 47 00:02:59,492 --> 00:03:01,744 you show him the same mercy he showed 48 00:03:02,328 --> 00:03:06,123 when he took these 22 lives off the face of the Earth 49 00:03:06,540 --> 00:03:08,250 and put them here." 50 00:03:08,292 --> 00:03:11,796 And I threw the victim photos into the crawl-space opening. 51 00:03:11,837 --> 00:03:13,422 They hit the front of the jury box 52 00:03:13,464 --> 00:03:15,674 and splashed all over the tile floor 53 00:03:15,716 --> 00:03:18,511 and spread all over the well of the court. 54 00:03:19,303 --> 00:03:21,639 Absolute pin-drop silence. 55 00:03:23,099 --> 00:03:25,226 I didn’t move for about 3 minutes, 56 00:03:25,267 --> 00:03:29,230 and Sullivan actually had to almost lead me to my chair. 57 00:03:29,271 --> 00:03:31,524 I was done. I was spent. 58 00:03:35,861 --> 00:03:39,490 It is indeed possible that if John Wayne Gacy 59 00:03:39,532 --> 00:03:41,867 is not guilty by reason of insanity, 60 00:03:42,493 --> 00:03:44,620 he could be out of a mental institution 61 00:03:44,662 --> 00:03:46,539 within a matter of years. 62 00:03:47,998 --> 00:03:52,628 After the jury went out, there was a little bar 63 00:03:52,670 --> 00:03:54,839 about a block away from the courthouse 64 00:03:55,506 --> 00:03:58,926 where we all went called Gene’s. It was such a lowlife place, 65 00:03:58,968 --> 00:04:00,720 you entered through the back door, 66 00:04:00,761 --> 00:04:03,723 but state’s attorneys went there, public defenders, 67 00:04:03,764 --> 00:04:08,728 cops, everybody. And then when juries came back, 68 00:04:08,769 --> 00:04:10,604 the courthouse would call down there, 69 00:04:10,646 --> 00:04:13,649 somebody from the courtroom and say, "The jury is in." 70 00:04:14,442 --> 00:04:16,193 It wasn’t but about 2 hours. 71 00:04:17,069 --> 00:04:19,530 You could barely have finished a drink or two, 72 00:04:19,572 --> 00:04:20,990 and the phone rings. 73 00:04:21,032 --> 00:04:23,409 The jury has now reached a decision in the trial 74 00:04:23,451 --> 00:04:24,744 of John Wayne Gacy, 75 00:04:24,785 --> 00:04:27,496 accused of killing 33 young men and boys. 76 00:04:27,538 --> 00:04:29,665 Now, we do not know what that verdict is 77 00:04:29,707 --> 00:04:30,958 because they are calling 78 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,127 both sides back into the courtroom now. 79 00:04:33,169 --> 00:04:35,755 We’d been at trial and jury selection for 7 weeks, 80 00:04:35,796 --> 00:04:39,759 6 weeks of trial, so 2 hours was pretty quick. 81 00:04:41,552 --> 00:04:44,972 When a jury comes back fast, the rule of thumb 82 00:04:45,765 --> 00:04:47,767 is that it’s a not guilty, 83 00:04:47,808 --> 00:04:52,063 so I was pretty terrified when we walked back to the courtroom. 84 00:04:54,231 --> 00:04:57,068 And of course, when they actually read the verdict, 85 00:04:57,610 --> 00:04:59,904 that’s just the best. 86 00:04:59,945 --> 00:05:03,199 It took the jury of seven men and five women less than 2 hours 87 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:07,286 to find John Wayne Gacy guilty of murdering 33 young men. 88 00:05:07,787 --> 00:05:10,122 Gacy was convicted of murdering more people 89 00:05:10,164 --> 00:05:12,041 than anyone else in US history. 90 00:05:12,875 --> 00:05:16,379 In the end, the prosecutors managed to prove 91 00:05:16,420 --> 00:05:22,343 that Gacy did so many things to try and cover up what he did, 92 00:05:22,385 --> 00:05:23,928 that he was so careful 93 00:05:23,969 --> 00:05:27,306 and so calculating about it that he was absolutely sane. 94 00:05:27,348 --> 00:05:30,101 It what an emotional time for relatives of the victims, 95 00:05:30,142 --> 00:05:32,937 and many, like Ken Piest, whose brother was killed, 96 00:05:32,978 --> 00:05:34,063 want revenge. 97 00:05:34,105 --> 00:05:36,107 There’s only one solution now. 98 00:05:36,148 --> 00:05:37,316 What is that? 99 00:05:37,358 --> 00:05:39,068 I want to see him go to the chair. 100 00:05:39,110 --> 00:05:40,319 And Eugenia Godzik, 101 00:05:40,361 --> 00:05:42,655 mother of another victim, tearfully agreed. 102 00:05:42,697 --> 00:05:44,907 I hope he does get the electric chair. 103 00:05:44,949 --> 00:05:46,742 Then that’ll make everybody feel better. 104 00:05:46,784 --> 00:05:49,537 I’m sure it’ll make the other mothers feel better, too. 105 00:05:49,578 --> 00:05:52,123 I remember saying, "Thank God," 106 00:05:53,207 --> 00:05:55,918 and, "It’s not over yet." 107 00:05:58,003 --> 00:05:59,630 There will now be another hearing, 108 00:05:59,672 --> 00:06:02,675 and the same jury will begin deliberating once again. 109 00:06:03,134 --> 00:06:06,721 This time, they will deliberate on whether John Wayne Gacy 110 00:06:06,762 --> 00:06:09,140 should be put to death in the electric chair. 111 00:06:10,307 --> 00:06:11,475 Throughout the trial, 112 00:06:11,517 --> 00:06:12,977 there had been constant references 113 00:06:13,018 --> 00:06:16,605 to a Jekyll-and-Hyde kind of syndrome 114 00:06:16,647 --> 00:06:18,983 where because of pills or alcohol, 115 00:06:19,483 --> 00:06:21,485 Gacy became this brutal killer, 116 00:06:21,902 --> 00:06:26,657 much like the kindly Dr. Jekyll became the brutal Mr. Hyde. 117 00:06:28,325 --> 00:06:31,871 So I actually got the Robert Louis Stevenson book, 118 00:06:33,706 --> 00:06:35,583 and I read it again. 119 00:06:37,043 --> 00:06:42,006 And so one of the things I did in the argument is I said, 120 00:06:42,048 --> 00:06:44,550 "They keep talking about Jekyll and Hyde." 121 00:06:45,593 --> 00:06:48,137 I said, "I don’t know if you read it, 122 00:06:48,179 --> 00:06:49,680 but what you learned is, 123 00:06:50,473 --> 00:06:54,185 that the goodly, kind Dr. Jekyll wanted to study evil, 124 00:06:55,019 --> 00:06:57,521 and so he invented a potion that he could take 125 00:06:58,356 --> 00:07:02,818 that would expose that evil, and he became the evil Mr. Hyde 126 00:07:03,319 --> 00:07:05,529 and committed these horrible crimes. 127 00:07:05,988 --> 00:07:07,907 He took the potion on purpose 128 00:07:07,948 --> 00:07:11,369 because he wanted to know what he was doing when he did it, 129 00:07:12,453 --> 00:07:16,082 and he remembered what he did after he did it. 130 00:07:16,499 --> 00:07:18,209 And guess what, folks? 131 00:07:19,043 --> 00:07:22,046 He enjoyed it, and he did it again, 132 00:07:22,922 --> 00:07:25,549 and he did it again, and he did it again, 133 00:07:26,384 --> 00:07:28,886 and all he cared about was the godlike decision 134 00:07:28,928 --> 00:07:31,013 of who would live and who would die, 135 00:07:31,055 --> 00:07:34,683 and John Gacy made that same decision. 136 00:07:36,644 --> 00:07:39,355 Robert Louis Stevenson always had a moral 137 00:07:39,397 --> 00:07:40,856 at the end of the story, 138 00:07:41,482 --> 00:07:46,696 and the villain in Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde paid 139 00:07:46,737 --> 00:07:48,698 for his crimes with his life." 140 00:07:54,328 --> 00:07:57,248 John Gacy will be put to death in the electric chair. 141 00:07:57,790 --> 00:07:59,500 Judge Garippo sat back in his chair 142 00:07:59,542 --> 00:08:03,087 as relatives and friends of the victims applauded and cheered. 143 00:08:03,129 --> 00:08:05,673 The convicted murderer showed no emotion at all 144 00:08:05,715 --> 00:08:07,466 as he walked up to the judge’s bench. 145 00:08:07,508 --> 00:08:09,343 He simply nodded as Judge Garippo 146 00:08:09,385 --> 00:08:11,095 set the date for execution. 147 00:08:16,058 --> 00:08:19,228 I thought Gacy was the poster child for the death penalty, 148 00:08:19,270 --> 00:08:21,897 and, frankly, if Gacy hadn’t received the death penalty, 149 00:08:21,939 --> 00:08:23,232 my position would’ve been, 150 00:08:23,274 --> 00:08:25,151 nobody should receive the death penalty. 151 00:08:25,192 --> 00:08:28,404 I’m relieved, and the sooner they get rid of him, 152 00:08:28,446 --> 00:08:32,158 the better for all what he’s done to every family 153 00:08:32,199 --> 00:08:35,870 and caused everybody unhappiness and something 154 00:08:35,911 --> 00:08:37,913 that can’t be repaid. 155 00:08:37,955 --> 00:08:41,751 My mother assumed that, "Okay, it’s over. 156 00:08:41,792 --> 00:08:43,878 Next week, he’s going to be put to death," 157 00:08:44,336 --> 00:08:47,006 not realizing it takes umpteen years. 158 00:08:47,048 --> 00:08:49,008 They have appeals and all that. 159 00:09:08,069 --> 00:09:12,281 His adaptable life in prison seems unreal. 160 00:09:12,823 --> 00:09:18,537 It’s like he’s home, conducting business from him living room. 161 00:09:19,330 --> 00:09:22,291 He was writing letters. He got a pen-pal club 162 00:09:22,333 --> 00:09:26,462 going and getting his word out there of his innocence. 163 00:09:26,504 --> 00:09:29,090 I’m sure there was a lot of people that believed 164 00:09:29,131 --> 00:09:31,092 some of the stuff that he told them. 165 00:09:31,133 --> 00:09:32,927 I felt things were going to work out 166 00:09:32,968 --> 00:09:34,512 because I knew I didn’t do the killing, 167 00:09:34,553 --> 00:09:37,807 and I thought it would come out in the trial, but Amirante, 168 00:09:37,848 --> 00:09:40,017 with this insanity defense, what I ... 169 00:09:40,059 --> 00:09:41,977 And again, you can call it my ignorance of the law, 170 00:09:42,019 --> 00:09:43,312 it’s like I explained 171 00:09:43,354 --> 00:09:46,065 in a letter to Chief Justice William Clark, 172 00:09:46,774 --> 00:09:49,443 the evidence based in on the theory 173 00:09:49,485 --> 00:09:52,405 that the more sensational the case it, 174 00:09:52,446 --> 00:09:55,950 the more crazier it sounds, the insanity defense would work, 175 00:09:55,991 --> 00:09:57,702 and I still think it was stupid. 176 00:09:57,743 --> 00:09:58,953 How about ... 177 00:09:58,994 --> 00:10:00,871 I think they did a disservice to me 178 00:10:00,913 --> 00:10:02,832 and they did a disservice to the victims. 179 00:10:02,873 --> 00:10:05,501 You know what people don’t understand is, 180 00:10:05,543 --> 00:10:08,587 I feel I was wrongfully convicted for 33 murders, 181 00:10:08,629 --> 00:10:11,340 and it was only because of sensationalism and ego. 182 00:10:11,382 --> 00:10:14,009 The Des Plaines police did a sloppy investigation. 183 00:10:14,844 --> 00:10:18,931 This is ... It may not be the correct way of wording it, 184 00:10:18,973 --> 00:10:22,101 but the thing of it is is that, they had other suspects, 185 00:10:22,143 --> 00:10:25,021 and they had tunnel vision into say, 186 00:10:25,521 --> 00:10:28,691 "It’s Gacy’s house. It’s easier to put everything on Gacy." 187 00:10:29,650 --> 00:10:31,819 How are you? I’m doing fine. How are you? 188 00:10:31,861 --> 00:10:33,446 Good, good. 189 00:10:33,487 --> 00:10:35,823 Liz gave me a call last night and said that you tried to call. 190 00:10:35,865 --> 00:10:37,074 Oh, yeah. 191 00:10:37,116 --> 00:10:39,118 I just didn’t get home in time. 192 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,288 By the time I met John, 193 00:10:43,122 --> 00:10:48,085 he definitely was not happy with his defense attorneys. 194 00:10:48,586 --> 00:10:53,799 It was really like, "Why I got railroaded. 195 00:10:53,841 --> 00:10:57,303 They shouldn’t have joined all the murder charges together." 196 00:10:58,429 --> 00:11:00,222 There’s only one pathology report, 197 00:11:00,264 --> 00:11:01,891 and it’s on Robert Piest. You mean to tell me 198 00:11:01,932 --> 00:11:04,268 there’s no other medical reports on this case? 199 00:11:04,935 --> 00:11:07,229 There’s 33 victims and one medical report. 200 00:11:07,271 --> 00:11:10,191 You see, there is enough grounds to get a new trial, 201 00:11:10,733 --> 00:11:13,069 but it slowly is slipping away, 202 00:11:13,110 --> 00:11:14,653 and people don’t understand that. 203 00:11:14,695 --> 00:11:17,156 We’re 10 years down the line on this appeal shit. 204 00:11:17,198 --> 00:11:21,994 My relationship with Gacy became much more familiar 205 00:11:22,036 --> 00:11:25,998 over the years. There were allotted time slots 206 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,501 of how much phone time you could get, 207 00:11:29,210 --> 00:11:32,004 and John seemed to always get whatever he wanted. 208 00:11:32,713 --> 00:11:34,006 See, it’s a domino effect. 209 00:11:34,048 --> 00:11:36,717 Once you overturn it, you know ... 210 00:11:37,510 --> 00:11:39,637 but right now they’re giving credibility to Amirante. 211 00:11:39,678 --> 00:11:43,724 And until I can take that credibility away from him, 212 00:11:44,183 --> 00:11:46,060 I don’t stand a chance. 213 00:11:46,102 --> 00:11:48,187 John never seemed to get cut off. 214 00:11:49,021 --> 00:11:51,774 If he wanted to talk for an hour, he could. 215 00:11:52,191 --> 00:11:54,151 That’s ineffective assistance of counsel. 216 00:11:54,193 --> 00:11:57,321 And so that’s going to be part of that issue? Okay. 217 00:11:57,363 --> 00:11:58,864 Okay. Yeah. 218 00:11:58,906 --> 00:12:03,285 John obviously thought I was on his side in his appeals, 219 00:12:03,327 --> 00:12:06,580 and I would talk with his various lawyers at the time. 220 00:12:06,622 --> 00:12:10,501 Honestly, I think I was just somebody who could help him. 221 00:12:11,293 --> 00:12:14,672 He had so many people that he used to do this or that. 222 00:12:15,673 --> 00:12:21,971 I cared about him in many ways. I also hated him in many ways. 223 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:27,143 John, towards the end, basically just was lashing out. 224 00:12:28,352 --> 00:12:33,357 All the appeals, they’re just feeding the machine, 225 00:12:33,774 --> 00:12:36,152 more paper, more motions. 226 00:12:36,193 --> 00:12:40,489 He was using anything he could to come up with an appeal, 227 00:12:40,531 --> 00:12:45,119 but he was basically the poster child for the death penalty. 228 00:12:55,713 --> 00:12:59,759 In fall of 1993, I remember being in the car 229 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,803 with my partner, Greg, and we heard a radio broadcast 230 00:13:02,845 --> 00:13:06,098 saying that John Wayne Gacy had a date set for death, 231 00:13:06,140 --> 00:13:08,184 and then at the same time, we both came up 232 00:13:08,225 --> 00:13:10,644 with kind of this idea of, "Wow, wouldn’t 233 00:13:10,686 --> 00:13:13,522 that be interesting to represent John Wayne Gacy?" 234 00:13:13,981 --> 00:13:15,608 And then we laughed it off, thinking, 235 00:13:15,649 --> 00:13:18,110 "Why would we ever be chosen to represent him?" 236 00:13:18,694 --> 00:13:21,989 Then we got a call that John Gacy might want 237 00:13:22,031 --> 00:13:24,200 to interview us, but interestingly, 238 00:13:24,241 --> 00:13:27,453 it was not about representing him in the death-penalty matter. 239 00:13:27,495 --> 00:13:30,206 He had a civil matter that was going on at the time. 240 00:13:30,247 --> 00:13:32,541 When he was in prison, he started painting, 241 00:13:33,042 --> 00:13:35,419 and he sold his paintings. 242 00:13:35,461 --> 00:13:38,881 People wanted to buy his stuff because of his notoriety. 243 00:13:40,257 --> 00:13:43,010 He was making money, and the state of Illinois 244 00:13:43,052 --> 00:13:45,429 was suing him to try to take away his money 245 00:13:45,471 --> 00:13:47,264 that he was earning on death row. 246 00:13:47,306 --> 00:13:50,684 Right now, Gacy paintings are a big business, big commodity. 247 00:13:50,726 --> 00:13:53,437 There’s a large call for them. In fact, I think Gacy right now 248 00:13:53,479 --> 00:13:55,815 is one of the hottest convict painters, 249 00:13:55,856 --> 00:13:58,317 I guess, or the death row artists. 250 00:13:58,359 --> 00:14:00,861 Hey, your painting have improved over the years. 251 00:14:00,903 --> 00:14:02,321 I think we’ve seen some ... 252 00:14:02,363 --> 00:14:03,531 I think I’ve learned from each one of them. 253 00:14:03,572 --> 00:14:05,116 Yeah. 254 00:14:05,157 --> 00:14:06,701 I guess it’s the same reason why I relate to Michelangelo 255 00:14:06,742 --> 00:14:09,578 because he was a workaholic and Leonardo da Vinci. 256 00:14:10,287 --> 00:14:12,790 People always ask me who my favorite artists are and why, 257 00:14:12,832 --> 00:14:16,043 and I did not know that Michelangelo was homosexual, 258 00:14:16,085 --> 00:14:17,545 and it doesn’t make no difference to me. 259 00:14:17,586 --> 00:14:20,673 He was a workaholic. He was a sculptor. 260 00:14:21,257 --> 00:14:25,678 He was a painter and did a lot of other things. 261 00:14:26,846 --> 00:14:29,265 da Vinci was an inventor and that. 262 00:14:29,306 --> 00:14:31,684 And of course, in my life, I’ve done painting, 263 00:14:31,726 --> 00:14:33,227 decorating, wallpapering. 264 00:14:33,269 --> 00:14:36,230 I’ve done mural work, you name it. 265 00:14:37,106 --> 00:14:39,316 The prison system did not like the fact 266 00:14:39,358 --> 00:14:43,404 that John Gacy was making money. He also had 900 number 267 00:14:43,446 --> 00:14:45,906 where people could call in and listen to his voice, 268 00:14:45,948 --> 00:14:48,492 and he would tell them that he was actually innocent 269 00:14:48,534 --> 00:14:50,911 and that they were going to execute an innocent man, 270 00:14:50,953 --> 00:14:52,413 but he made money on that, as well, 271 00:14:52,455 --> 00:14:53,873 and the law in Illinois says 272 00:14:53,914 --> 00:14:57,251 that if an inmate can pay for his incarceration, 273 00:14:57,293 --> 00:15:00,421 the inmate has to pay it, so they were suing Gacy 274 00:15:00,463 --> 00:15:02,423 for basically his room and board. 275 00:15:02,465 --> 00:15:04,967 So that’s how we got the call originally. 276 00:15:05,843 --> 00:15:08,137 Gacy denies that he’s reaping big profits 277 00:15:08,179 --> 00:15:09,680 from sales of his artwork. 278 00:15:09,722 --> 00:15:11,974 Some of his old paintings are selling for thousands, 279 00:15:12,016 --> 00:15:16,353 but Gacy told me that money is going to dealers and lawyers. 280 00:15:16,395 --> 00:15:18,272 At first, my partner, Greg, said, 281 00:15:18,314 --> 00:15:19,523 "Why would we do this? 282 00:15:19,565 --> 00:15:21,400 We’re not going to represent him." 283 00:15:21,442 --> 00:15:23,611 And I said, "Don’t you want to meet this guy? 284 00:15:23,652 --> 00:15:26,238 Don’t you want to look evil in the eye?" 285 00:15:30,493 --> 00:15:33,454 The prison is an old place. It’s kind of a gothic, 286 00:15:33,496 --> 00:15:35,581 strange kind of eery-looking place 287 00:15:35,623 --> 00:15:37,958 that sits on the Mississippi river, 288 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,293 and I remember going in there, 289 00:15:39,335 --> 00:15:42,421 and it was kind of a freaky experience. 290 00:15:43,631 --> 00:15:47,593 You were actually put into a little room with your prisoner, 291 00:15:47,635 --> 00:15:51,055 who was handcuffed, but there was nothing between you, 292 00:15:51,639 --> 00:15:54,850 and we kind of said to him, "John, is this civil case 293 00:15:54,892 --> 00:15:57,144 really the most important thing going on right now 294 00:15:57,186 --> 00:15:59,605 when you have a death date in about 7 months?" 295 00:16:00,606 --> 00:16:03,442 Later, when we walked out of the prison, I said to Greg, 296 00:16:04,068 --> 00:16:06,612 "Why don’t we represent him in the death-row case?" 297 00:16:06,654 --> 00:16:08,989 If you’re a runner, you want to run the marathon. 298 00:16:09,031 --> 00:16:12,660 If you’re a mountain climber, you want to climb Mt. Everest. 299 00:16:12,702 --> 00:16:14,829 This was the ultimate challenge, right? 300 00:16:14,870 --> 00:16:19,333 Our plan was, we would represent John Gacy in his civil case 301 00:16:19,375 --> 00:16:22,128 but only if we were able to represent him 302 00:16:22,169 --> 00:16:24,422 in the death-row appeals, as well. 303 00:16:28,551 --> 00:16:32,054 All of his traditional appeals had been exhausted, 304 00:16:32,471 --> 00:16:34,598 and that is why the death date was set, 305 00:16:36,350 --> 00:16:39,687 so we had to come up with some creative arguments 306 00:16:39,729 --> 00:16:42,023 to make to get him off the death penalty. 307 00:16:42,064 --> 00:16:44,775 It might be further appeals. It might be actual innocence. 308 00:16:44,817 --> 00:16:47,028 It might be ineffective assistance of counsel, 309 00:16:47,069 --> 00:16:48,696 saying that lawyers were not doing 310 00:16:48,738 --> 00:16:52,199 the right thing in the past, so you’re basically coming up 311 00:16:52,241 --> 00:16:54,660 with anything you possibly can at this point 312 00:16:54,702 --> 00:16:58,080 just to get that execution date off the calendar. 313 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,877 Gacy did not get the death penalty for all 33 boys, 314 00:17:02,918 --> 00:17:06,380 so we thought that if we could prove actual innocence 315 00:17:06,422 --> 00:17:08,841 for those boys where they had the death penalty, 316 00:17:08,883 --> 00:17:11,052 the death penalty would be withdrawn, 317 00:17:11,093 --> 00:17:14,638 and we’d just have him living out a life sentence, 318 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:20,144 so we went to the warehouse where John Gacy’s evidence was, 319 00:17:20,770 --> 00:17:23,731 all of the things that were taken from the home 320 00:17:23,773 --> 00:17:27,193 and the various business records that were in the Gacy home. 321 00:17:28,194 --> 00:17:29,945 John Gacy’s records were meticulous. 322 00:17:29,987 --> 00:17:33,824 They had his car and his gas and his motel bills 323 00:17:33,866 --> 00:17:37,453 and those types of things, and we determined that John Gacy 324 00:17:37,495 --> 00:17:41,665 was actually documented out of the state 325 00:17:41,707 --> 00:17:44,794 at a time where several of these young men and boys 326 00:17:44,835 --> 00:17:46,504 were deemed to be gone missing. 327 00:17:54,428 --> 00:17:56,138 As you know, I’m a bug about record keeping. 328 00:17:56,180 --> 00:17:57,681 Mm-hmm. 329 00:17:57,723 --> 00:17:59,725 All of my business records confirmed where I was, 330 00:17:59,767 --> 00:18:01,852 who I was with, what hotel I stayed at, 331 00:18:01,894 --> 00:18:04,814 what meals I ate. Everything was in the files, 332 00:18:05,439 --> 00:18:09,485 and all of those files on December 29th of 1978 333 00:18:09,902 --> 00:18:12,697 were confiscated by the Des Plaines Police Department. 334 00:18:12,738 --> 00:18:14,865 Mm-hmm. And those files there alone 335 00:18:15,616 --> 00:18:17,159 could have proven that I wasn't in Illinois 336 00:18:17,201 --> 00:18:19,412 when 16 of these murders ... when they finally set the dates 337 00:18:19,453 --> 00:18:20,788 as to when these murders occurred. 338 00:18:20,830 --> 00:18:22,081 Mm-hmm. 339 00:18:22,123 --> 00:18:24,250 The fact that we found that Gacy 340 00:18:24,291 --> 00:18:28,295 was probably out of town during at least a few 341 00:18:28,337 --> 00:18:31,757 of the boys’ deaths led us to believe 342 00:18:31,799 --> 00:18:35,428 that there were other boys and men involved in these crimes, 343 00:18:35,845 --> 00:18:38,055 and that was consistent with a lot of the things 344 00:18:38,097 --> 00:18:39,640 that we had heard over the years. 345 00:18:39,682 --> 00:18:43,102 And listen, the dates that were set for the death of these boys 346 00:18:43,144 --> 00:18:44,770 was somewhat arbitrary 347 00:18:44,812 --> 00:18:47,940 because it was a date they may have been last seen 348 00:18:47,982 --> 00:18:50,818 and then they were found, but I think it’s possible 349 00:18:50,860 --> 00:18:53,446 that John Gacy didn’t kill all those victims. 350 00:18:53,487 --> 00:18:56,907 I believe that there may have been other people 351 00:18:56,949 --> 00:18:58,784 who helped him or were in on it. 352 00:18:59,618 --> 00:19:01,412 His whole thing what that his appeal 353 00:19:01,454 --> 00:19:03,164 was going to vindicate him 354 00:19:03,205 --> 00:19:05,291 and he was going to be found innocent, 355 00:19:05,708 --> 00:19:07,835 and how can you be innocent? 356 00:19:07,877 --> 00:19:10,546 You can say you didn’t kill 33 people, 357 00:19:10,588 --> 00:19:13,591 that maybe you’ve killed 10 of them. 358 00:19:13,632 --> 00:19:16,802 It doesn’t matter. You killed somebody. 359 00:19:16,844 --> 00:19:18,763 You’re not going to be vindicated, 360 00:19:19,847 --> 00:19:23,642 and he would always try to change the subject. 361 00:19:23,684 --> 00:19:25,019 "Let’s get off that subject. 362 00:19:25,061 --> 00:19:27,313 I don’t want to talk about that anymore." 363 00:19:27,355 --> 00:19:29,315 You did say that you never painted yourself 364 00:19:29,357 --> 00:19:31,609 as an innocent babe in the woods, that you ... 365 00:19:31,650 --> 00:19:33,027 We’re going over the same thing. 366 00:19:33,069 --> 00:19:34,278 Yeah. 367 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:35,529 We’re not going to go into that. 368 00:19:35,571 --> 00:19:36,947 Basically. No, but the point is, 369 00:19:36,989 --> 00:19:40,284 if you feel that you’re not covering up 370 00:19:40,326 --> 00:19:42,661 your part of the crimes but at the same time 371 00:19:42,703 --> 00:19:44,455 you open the thought that others were involved, 372 00:19:44,497 --> 00:19:46,332 would you be willing to cooperate 373 00:19:46,374 --> 00:19:49,627 with law-enforcement people today to avail, say, 374 00:19:50,127 --> 00:19:54,131 the materials that you have amassed to more or less pursue 375 00:19:54,924 --> 00:19:57,343 if, in fact, there are others that are on the streets 376 00:19:57,385 --> 00:19:58,803 that have been involved in these murders? 377 00:19:58,844 --> 00:20:00,304 Would you be willing to cooperate 378 00:20:00,346 --> 00:20:03,307 and to assist to pursue that 379 00:20:03,349 --> 00:20:05,351 to the ends of bringing others to justice? 380 00:20:05,393 --> 00:20:06,977 Would you be willing to do that? 381 00:20:07,019 --> 00:20:08,354 I’ve got no qualms about that, 382 00:20:08,396 --> 00:20:09,730 but what I don’t understand is, 383 00:20:09,772 --> 00:20:11,857 why wasn’t it done to begin with, Bob? 384 00:20:12,525 --> 00:20:16,654 We tried to get Gacy to tell us, 385 00:20:16,696 --> 00:20:19,365 if they were other people involved, who were they? 386 00:20:19,407 --> 00:20:23,369 So was he making it up? Was he protecting someone? 387 00:20:23,994 --> 00:20:29,333 He speculated who it might be, but he never gave us anything 388 00:20:29,375 --> 00:20:31,544 that we could go to the prosecution and say, 389 00:20:31,585 --> 00:20:34,130 "We have this information that you don’t have, 390 00:20:34,171 --> 00:20:37,341 and it’s going to die with Gacy, so don’t execute him." 391 00:20:37,383 --> 00:20:39,260 We never had that ability. 392 00:20:40,636 --> 00:20:41,971 In his opening session Monday, 393 00:20:42,012 --> 00:20:43,305 the Supreme Court rejected 394 00:20:43,347 --> 00:20:45,433 an appeal challenging the death penalty 395 00:20:45,474 --> 00:20:48,144 for serial killer John Wayne Gacy, Jr. 396 00:20:48,185 --> 00:20:50,312 The Illinois Supreme Court is expected to announce 397 00:20:50,354 --> 00:20:53,649 an execution date within the next 2 weeks. 398 00:20:53,691 --> 00:20:57,570 He didn’t start talking about the clock ticking until ... 399 00:20:59,780 --> 00:21:04,118 in ’94 when they set the date for May 10th. 400 00:21:04,577 --> 00:21:07,955 He knew then that the time was running out, 401 00:21:08,664 --> 00:21:11,125 and he felt more and more pressure. 402 00:21:11,167 --> 00:21:15,296 The last time I saw John, which was for his birthday, 403 00:21:15,337 --> 00:21:20,968 March of ’94, and he said, 404 00:21:21,010 --> 00:21:23,471 "This is the last time you’re going to see me. 405 00:21:23,512 --> 00:21:25,264 I’m going to be executed in May." 406 00:21:25,306 --> 00:21:26,640 And I said, "No, you’re not." 407 00:21:26,682 --> 00:21:31,312 He goes, "Yes, I am," and I got emotional. 408 00:21:31,896 --> 00:21:35,107 He couldn’t hug me because he had handcuffs on, 409 00:21:35,983 --> 00:21:41,364 but I could hug him, and he said, "Hug me." 410 00:21:42,323 --> 00:21:43,991 So as I’m leaving, it’s like ... 411 00:21:44,825 --> 00:21:46,744 I’m just like, this is going through my head. 412 00:21:46,786 --> 00:21:51,791 I can’t believe that Gacy was comforting me. 413 00:21:52,333 --> 00:21:54,752 Gacy’s attorneys were on the phone with their client 414 00:21:54,794 --> 00:21:56,962 putting together still more last-minute appeals 415 00:21:57,004 --> 00:21:59,632 hoping to beat the clock and the executioner. 416 00:21:59,673 --> 00:22:02,468 Between the time that Gacy was convicted 417 00:22:02,510 --> 00:22:03,803 to the time he was executed, 418 00:22:03,844 --> 00:22:06,389 Illinois changed the form of death 419 00:22:06,931 --> 00:22:10,393 from the electric chair to lethal injection. 420 00:22:11,352 --> 00:22:12,895 We brought an injunction saying 421 00:22:12,937 --> 00:22:15,898 that the method of execution was cruel and unusual 422 00:22:15,940 --> 00:22:18,067 because of the way it was going to be 423 00:22:18,109 --> 00:22:20,319 implemented by this machine that was faulty. 424 00:22:20,361 --> 00:22:24,073 We’re getting down to the very last appeals. 425 00:22:24,865 --> 00:22:26,283 We’re on uncharted grounds here. 426 00:22:26,325 --> 00:22:29,954 When I told him his last appeal was rejected, 427 00:22:30,371 --> 00:22:32,498 I remember him kind of waving me away, 428 00:22:32,540 --> 00:22:34,375 saying, "We’ll talk about it later," 429 00:22:34,917 --> 00:22:36,961 as if there was going to be a later. 430 00:22:38,963 --> 00:22:40,589 He may have already come to grips with it 431 00:22:40,631 --> 00:22:43,092 in his own mind, that the appeal was done. 432 00:22:44,802 --> 00:22:47,138 On the night of the execution, 433 00:22:47,179 --> 00:22:49,724 I was on the phone with him several times, 434 00:22:50,558 --> 00:22:55,896 and at about 11:45, we’re talking, 435 00:22:56,397 --> 00:22:58,024 and I hear mumbling, and he goes, 436 00:22:58,065 --> 00:23:00,443 "Okay, my ride is here. Got to go." 437 00:23:02,528 --> 00:23:05,448 And that was our last conversation. 438 00:23:06,866 --> 00:23:10,036 Kill him! Kill him! Kill him! 439 00:23:10,077 --> 00:23:13,456 I was there that night. The clown has got to go! 440 00:23:13,497 --> 00:23:15,041 See you in hell! 441 00:23:15,082 --> 00:23:18,586 It was an event. Gacy’s execution was an event. 442 00:23:19,045 --> 00:23:22,214 It’s time die. Fourteen years has been much too long. 443 00:23:22,256 --> 00:23:24,008 He deserves to die! 444 00:23:24,050 --> 00:23:25,801 There were people from both sides, 445 00:23:26,260 --> 00:23:29,555 pro death penalty, against death penalty. 446 00:23:30,181 --> 00:23:33,601 There were lines of people, miles of people protesting 447 00:23:33,642 --> 00:23:35,019 and, "Kill the clown." 448 00:23:35,061 --> 00:23:36,187 The clown goes down! 449 00:23:36,228 --> 00:23:37,396 [Lyrics] 450 00:23:37,438 --> 00:23:39,690 Na, na, na, na 451 00:23:40,274 --> 00:23:42,902 Hey, hey, hey Goodbye 452 00:23:44,528 --> 00:23:46,906 And frankly, that was upsetting 453 00:23:46,947 --> 00:23:50,034 because if a government is going to take the life of somebody 454 00:23:50,076 --> 00:23:52,453 because they’ve committed a horrendous crime, 455 00:23:53,037 --> 00:23:55,289 then it should be something of awe. 456 00:23:55,831 --> 00:24:00,169 It should be a calm, solemn event. 457 00:24:00,211 --> 00:24:01,712 It shouldn’t be a circus. 458 00:24:01,754 --> 00:24:05,591 It shouldn’t be cheering and drums beating and ... 459 00:24:06,801 --> 00:24:08,427 That’s not appropriate for the victims. 460 00:24:08,469 --> 00:24:10,096 It’s not appropriate for anybody. 461 00:24:10,137 --> 00:24:14,809 I was hoping that my mother would be alive because she said, 462 00:24:14,850 --> 00:24:17,603 "Oh, I want to be there. I want to be there." 463 00:24:17,645 --> 00:24:19,689 And she couldn’t that was sad. 464 00:24:20,606 --> 00:24:22,650 Both of my parents had passed away. 465 00:24:23,275 --> 00:24:28,656 My mom did not want him to go to jail and paint and all that, 466 00:24:29,073 --> 00:24:33,160 and that’s why I felt I needed to be at the execution, 467 00:24:34,328 --> 00:24:39,083 but the sad thing was that none of the family of the victims 468 00:24:39,125 --> 00:24:43,671 could be in the auditorium when he was being put to death. 469 00:24:44,088 --> 00:24:47,216 They put all the victims in a room in a ... 470 00:24:47,967 --> 00:24:49,343 Dungeon. 471 00:24:49,385 --> 00:24:52,388 ... in a building that was far away from the press, 472 00:24:52,430 --> 00:24:54,473 far away from the execution itself. 473 00:24:54,515 --> 00:24:57,727 We were watching it on a TV like the rest of America. 474 00:24:58,185 --> 00:25:00,980 In my opinion, they had us locked up 475 00:25:01,022 --> 00:25:05,109 so we could only see what they wanted us to see. 476 00:25:05,151 --> 00:25:10,031 It was like they didn’t want us there, period. 477 00:25:11,323 --> 00:25:13,367 The first drug is sodium pentathol, 478 00:25:13,409 --> 00:25:15,161 which puts you to sleep. 479 00:25:15,202 --> 00:25:18,956 If you get enough of that, it can kill you by itself. 480 00:25:18,998 --> 00:25:22,668 The second drug is a thing called pancurium bromide, 481 00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:25,921 and that causes your breathing to stop. 482 00:25:25,963 --> 00:25:28,716 The third drug is the one that stops your heart. 483 00:25:30,134 --> 00:25:33,554 And it kept getting delayed, the execution itself. 484 00:25:33,596 --> 00:25:35,848 They kept delaying, delaying, delaying. 485 00:25:35,890 --> 00:25:37,349 We kept saying, "Well, what’s going to happen?" 486 00:25:37,391 --> 00:25:40,144 They said, "Oh, they’ll call us when it’s over." 487 00:25:40,978 --> 00:25:43,939 When Gacy was wheeled into the area 488 00:25:43,981 --> 00:25:46,567 where he was to be executed, we left the premises, 489 00:25:47,026 --> 00:25:50,279 and I remember, we were watching television 490 00:25:50,321 --> 00:25:54,116 and watching what was going on, and we heard 491 00:25:54,158 --> 00:25:56,994 something malfunctioned. They closed the curtains. 492 00:25:58,287 --> 00:26:02,208 When the phone rang, they had some complications, 493 00:26:03,167 --> 00:26:05,836 and then they rang again, and they said, "Okay. 494 00:26:05,878 --> 00:26:08,881 He is now put to rest," and that was it, 495 00:26:08,923 --> 00:26:10,466 and we all just looked at each other, 496 00:26:10,508 --> 00:26:14,595 and you get up, and you go out. 497 00:26:15,513 --> 00:26:18,808 It was bizarre. It was very strange. 498 00:26:20,309 --> 00:26:23,896 John Wayne Gacy was pronounced dead at 12:58, 499 00:26:23,938 --> 00:26:26,315 2 minutes before 1 o’clock this morning. 500 00:26:26,357 --> 00:26:29,402 There will be a lot of questions to be asked yet 501 00:26:29,443 --> 00:26:30,945 about how this system worked. 502 00:26:30,986 --> 00:26:33,030 They began the injections at 12:40. 503 00:26:33,072 --> 00:26:35,616 He wasn’t pronounced dead for 18 minutes. 504 00:26:37,076 --> 00:26:38,411 It malfunctioned, like we said 505 00:26:38,452 --> 00:26:39,745 it was going to malfunction, 506 00:26:39,787 --> 00:26:42,081 and he was probably suffocated to death, 507 00:26:42,123 --> 00:26:44,291 and I think most people probably would say 508 00:26:44,333 --> 00:26:45,960 that that was a good result. 509 00:26:46,001 --> 00:26:50,005 They said that he probably felt more pain 510 00:26:50,047 --> 00:26:51,757 than they had planned on, 511 00:26:52,258 --> 00:26:54,093 but I know if my mother was there, 512 00:26:54,135 --> 00:26:56,971 she would have said, "That’s not enough." 513 00:26:57,430 --> 00:27:00,474 One little bit of pain is not enough. 514 00:27:01,559 --> 00:27:05,312 I attended the execution as an official state witness 515 00:27:05,354 --> 00:27:07,565 and signed the certificate of execution. 516 00:27:08,149 --> 00:27:12,820 He got a much easier death than any of his victims. 517 00:27:12,862 --> 00:27:14,113 In my opinion, 518 00:27:14,155 --> 00:27:16,323 he got an easier death than he deserved. 519 00:27:18,117 --> 00:27:20,077 I spent a couple hours 520 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:26,208 with him before they stopped visiting hours. 521 00:27:26,667 --> 00:27:28,419 I hugged him, and I told him. 522 00:27:28,461 --> 00:27:35,426 I said, "May God open his arms to you if you’re truly sorry. 523 00:27:36,177 --> 00:27:38,345 You need to ask him for forgiveness," 524 00:27:39,138 --> 00:27:42,850 and I don’t think I even said goodbye. 525 00:27:43,934 --> 00:27:48,064 I don’t know why. It’s just, you hug each other. 526 00:27:48,105 --> 00:27:50,524 You say, "I love you." "I love you back." 527 00:27:51,108 --> 00:27:56,989 He was crying. I was crying. It was hard. 528 00:27:57,031 --> 00:28:00,576 It was hard breaking and knowing I’d not see him again. 529 00:28:01,202 --> 00:28:04,413 I don’t know if it was because of the love, 530 00:28:05,247 --> 00:28:07,792 knowing him as a child and an adult 531 00:28:07,833 --> 00:28:12,880 and in a different sense. But I hadn’t seen the evil, 532 00:28:13,381 --> 00:28:17,718 so it’s like I could dismiss it because that wasn’t him, 533 00:28:18,177 --> 00:28:22,473 but now I’m just settled with the fact that he was evil. 534 00:28:24,809 --> 00:28:26,894 So many years have gone by, 535 00:28:27,478 --> 00:28:33,150 and I at least don’t think about it like it was yesterday, 536 00:28:34,151 --> 00:28:36,070 but it’s still part of my life, 537 00:28:37,405 --> 00:28:42,201 a part that I’d love to be able to just erase if I could. 538 00:28:42,702 --> 00:28:46,163 I only wish he would’ve apologized in some way 539 00:28:46,205 --> 00:28:50,209 or said something kind in the end to those families 540 00:28:50,251 --> 00:28:53,254 to have helped them to have closure 541 00:28:54,463 --> 00:28:58,092 because I can’t imagine ever losing a child of mine 542 00:28:58,134 --> 00:29:03,264 and not know that someone was actually sorry 543 00:29:03,764 --> 00:29:09,770 for doing harm to them. 544 00:29:12,398 --> 00:29:16,610 So many of those people and families are gone. 545 00:29:16,652 --> 00:29:19,363 Maybe their sisters and brothers are still alive, 546 00:29:19,905 --> 00:29:26,454 and I hope their lives are a lot better than all of this. 547 00:29:35,004 --> 00:29:36,464 This case did not die. 548 00:29:36,505 --> 00:29:40,426 The story did not die with the execution of John Gacy. 549 00:29:41,093 --> 00:29:43,763 I suppose there’s a lot that’s still unknown. 550 00:29:45,639 --> 00:29:47,433 I came to Chicago in 1994. 551 00:29:47,475 --> 00:29:50,019 I was the news reporter for the morning show. 552 00:29:50,603 --> 00:29:56,567 I never imagined the twists and turns of a story like this 553 00:29:57,276 --> 00:30:00,237 that were unresolved after all these years. 554 00:30:00,279 --> 00:30:04,450 It’s a story that has 50 stories within it 555 00:30:04,992 --> 00:30:06,911 and has all these different branches, 556 00:30:06,952 --> 00:30:09,246 and surprisingly, sometimes they end up crossing. 557 00:30:09,288 --> 00:30:15,378 I was about 17 when he was arrested, 558 00:30:16,212 --> 00:30:18,923 and I lived in a Chicago suburb. 559 00:30:18,964 --> 00:30:21,509 Everybody in Chicago knew about it, 560 00:30:21,550 --> 00:30:25,930 but years later, when I started looking into it, 561 00:30:25,971 --> 00:30:27,723 the more I learned about the case, 562 00:30:27,765 --> 00:30:31,352 the more convinced I became that the thing everybody thought 563 00:30:31,394 --> 00:30:34,563 they knew wasn’t the whole story. 564 00:30:39,402 --> 00:30:42,279 There was a lot of speculation at the time, 565 00:30:42,321 --> 00:30:44,865 and there still is a lot of speculation 566 00:30:44,907 --> 00:30:46,701 that there may have been others involved 567 00:30:46,742 --> 00:30:48,244 in some of those murders. 568 00:30:48,661 --> 00:30:51,372 Gacy always said he didn’t kill all the boys, 569 00:30:51,997 --> 00:30:53,958 and he alluded to the idea 570 00:30:53,999 --> 00:30:55,459 that there could’ve been a bigger picture, 571 00:30:55,501 --> 00:30:58,879 that there may have been a snuff-film operation 572 00:30:59,338 --> 00:31:02,133 and that some of these young men and boys 573 00:31:02,174 --> 00:31:04,343 were being killed and videotaped 574 00:31:04,385 --> 00:31:07,847 and the videos sold on the black market. 575 00:31:08,305 --> 00:31:11,225 He didn’t give me name. He didn’t say he was involved. 576 00:31:11,267 --> 00:31:13,477 He didn’t tell me who was involved, 577 00:31:13,519 --> 00:31:14,729 but he alluded to that. 578 00:31:14,770 --> 00:31:16,897 When he first said that to me, I was thinking, 579 00:31:16,939 --> 00:31:18,733 "This sounds like a bunch of BS," 580 00:31:18,774 --> 00:31:20,109 and then I thought about it, 581 00:31:20,151 --> 00:31:22,319 and I thought, "Well, Gacy liked to make money. 582 00:31:22,361 --> 00:31:25,698 There were probably other people involved in these crimes. 583 00:31:26,699 --> 00:31:29,410 There was probably a black market for snuff films back 584 00:31:29,452 --> 00:31:31,037 then if you like that kind of stuff, 585 00:31:31,078 --> 00:31:33,289 so maybe that did make sense." 586 00:31:33,330 --> 00:31:36,333 The thing of it is, they want you to believe 587 00:31:36,375 --> 00:31:40,546 that I and I alone committed these murders, 588 00:31:41,505 --> 00:31:43,507 and I had nothing to do with the murders of anyone. 589 00:31:43,549 --> 00:31:46,010 If anybody was involved, then how many people 590 00:31:46,052 --> 00:31:47,720 are we talking about beside yourself? 591 00:31:47,762 --> 00:31:49,680 We believe there was four people involved. 592 00:31:49,722 --> 00:31:51,140 Mm-hmm. 593 00:31:51,182 --> 00:31:54,060 And that would be Michael Rossi, David Cram, 594 00:31:54,643 --> 00:31:56,312 Phillip Paske. 595 00:31:56,353 --> 00:32:00,399 Both Rossi and Cram denied any knowledge of Gacy’s murders 596 00:32:00,441 --> 00:32:02,777 or of any of their involvement in anything. 597 00:32:03,444 --> 00:32:07,073 Phil Paske was from Chicago. 598 00:32:07,615 --> 00:32:15,122 He was one of those people who got into trouble, 599 00:32:15,164 --> 00:32:18,667 did a little drugs, did a little of this. 600 00:32:20,002 --> 00:32:24,215 And somehow, John Norman came into his life. 601 00:32:25,591 --> 00:32:31,347 So the story goes like this. There’s a guy named John Norman. 602 00:32:31,389 --> 00:32:33,391 Norman does some jail time 603 00:32:33,432 --> 00:32:36,268 for assaulting some kids in Homewood, Illinois. 604 00:32:37,186 --> 00:32:38,729 While he’s in the Cook County jail 605 00:32:38,771 --> 00:32:40,272 using the jail printing press, 606 00:32:40,898 --> 00:32:44,735 he creates this newsletter, "The Delta Project," 607 00:32:45,361 --> 00:32:49,281 this sex-trafficking ring that’s going to men 608 00:32:49,323 --> 00:32:51,784 who want to have sex with boys. 609 00:32:52,493 --> 00:32:55,579 And while he was in Cook County jail, 610 00:32:55,621 --> 00:32:57,123 he met Phil Paske, 611 00:32:57,748 --> 00:33:00,918 and when he got out of jail, Cook County jail, 612 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:06,257 Paske took over the operation of ... Norman’s operation. 613 00:33:06,841 --> 00:33:09,051 Here we’ve got a Phillip Paske, 614 00:33:09,635 --> 00:33:14,140 who had a newsletter going out of the Cook County jail, 615 00:33:15,474 --> 00:33:18,310 and here he is involved with a guy named John Norman. 616 00:33:19,061 --> 00:33:22,606 And John Norman was running boys for hire. 617 00:33:23,315 --> 00:33:25,693 They were making snuff films with young boys. 618 00:33:26,902 --> 00:33:29,989 They were pimping them off. They were selling them. 619 00:33:30,031 --> 00:33:31,657 So the connection is this. 620 00:33:31,699 --> 00:33:34,785 John Norman running "The Delta Project" sex-trafficking ring 621 00:33:34,827 --> 00:33:38,289 has an assistant named Phil Paske, and guess what? 622 00:33:38,706 --> 00:33:41,667 Phil Paske works for John Wayne Gacy. 623 00:33:44,754 --> 00:33:46,881 In 1977, 624 00:33:47,339 --> 00:33:50,426 the judiciary committee of the United States Senate 625 00:33:50,468 --> 00:33:54,972 put together a subcommittee to investigate the problem 626 00:33:55,014 --> 00:33:56,891 of child sex trafficking. 627 00:33:56,932 --> 00:33:58,976 Their first hearing was in Chicago. 628 00:33:59,018 --> 00:34:01,937 They called in a hub, the center 629 00:34:01,979 --> 00:34:07,193 of the country’s business in child sex trafficking. 630 00:34:07,860 --> 00:34:11,781 And yet, nobody ever thought, "Hey, maybe we ought to look at 631 00:34:11,822 --> 00:34:13,157 that sex-trafficking ring 632 00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:15,576 that was investigated by Congress in 1977 633 00:34:15,618 --> 00:34:18,454 when you’re investigating John Wayne Gacy in 1978." 634 00:34:19,580 --> 00:34:21,665 I guess you got to kind of ask yourself, 635 00:34:21,707 --> 00:34:23,292 what are the odds that Phil Paske, 636 00:34:23,334 --> 00:34:26,045 who’s John David Norman’s right-hand man, 637 00:34:26,670 --> 00:34:30,508 is working a day or 2 here and there for Gacy? 638 00:34:30,549 --> 00:34:34,136 I can’t believe that there wasn’t some crossover. 639 00:34:34,845 --> 00:34:38,557 Gacy loved pornography. There’s certainly evidence 640 00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:42,395 that if John wasn’t making stag films, he was trying to. 641 00:34:43,979 --> 00:34:48,526 After John had been arrested, the police had gone through. 642 00:34:48,567 --> 00:34:51,195 There was a big dresser and something else 643 00:34:51,237 --> 00:34:55,825 that we had picked up and taken that wasn’t ruined or destroyed, 644 00:34:56,409 --> 00:35:01,205 and when we got it home, underneath the drawers 645 00:35:01,247 --> 00:35:04,583 were some packets that were taped to the thing. 646 00:35:05,084 --> 00:35:08,045 I would think, if anything, the police would’ve found those. 647 00:35:08,087 --> 00:35:10,005 It was just kind of weird, 648 00:35:10,506 --> 00:35:14,844 and they were some pornographic pictures. 649 00:35:14,885 --> 00:35:18,097 It was John. It was a three-person thing. 650 00:35:18,639 --> 00:35:21,726 I was shocked, and I put them back in the envelope. 651 00:35:21,767 --> 00:35:24,895 I don’t know if I gave them to Sam Amirante 652 00:35:24,937 --> 00:35:28,107 or if I gave them to a detective that came to the house. 653 00:35:28,149 --> 00:35:31,402 I said, "I can’t believe that these were not found." 654 00:35:31,444 --> 00:35:34,447 Not that John Wayne Gacy is a credible witness here, 655 00:35:34,488 --> 00:35:37,575 but he says, "They ought to look into John Norman 656 00:35:37,616 --> 00:35:44,790 and look at his videos to see if they can identify any victims," 657 00:35:44,832 --> 00:35:48,753 and sort of implying that John Norman is involved in this. 658 00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:51,589 There was a crossover when we checked into 659 00:35:51,630 --> 00:35:53,549 John Norman’s background, 660 00:35:53,591 --> 00:35:58,763 that he goes all the way back to the early ’70s involved in ... 661 00:35:59,597 --> 00:36:01,098 He ran the Norman Foundation. 662 00:36:01,140 --> 00:36:05,853 He ran Epic International and the Odyssey Foundation 663 00:36:05,895 --> 00:36:07,605 out of Dallas, Texas, 664 00:36:07,646 --> 00:36:11,442 and these were organizations were wealthy men 665 00:36:11,484 --> 00:36:16,447 could hire young boys for sexual weekends, male prostitution. 666 00:36:16,489 --> 00:36:17,656 Have you ever met Norman? 667 00:36:17,698 --> 00:36:19,784 You ever had any contact with Norman? 668 00:36:20,576 --> 00:36:23,287 I have yet to see a current picture of him, 669 00:36:23,329 --> 00:36:26,415 and therefore, I’d have to say no. 670 00:36:28,334 --> 00:36:30,753 Phil Paske may have been with him at one time or another 671 00:36:30,795 --> 00:36:33,464 because, see, again, I came home from out of town at times, 672 00:36:33,506 --> 00:36:35,925 and Phil Paske would be at the house drinking beer 673 00:36:35,966 --> 00:36:39,178 or something like that. 674 00:36:39,595 --> 00:36:42,765 David Cram is the one that brought Phil Paske in 675 00:36:42,807 --> 00:36:45,851 because Cram, he didn’t want to do nothing. 676 00:36:45,893 --> 00:36:47,353 He got a hold of this guy. 677 00:36:47,395 --> 00:36:50,523 He said, "Well, this guy can get you somebody for sex." 678 00:36:51,023 --> 00:36:54,694 Gacy clearly knew who John Norman was, 679 00:36:55,361 --> 00:37:02,868 and his deflection, his lie was, 680 00:37:03,369 --> 00:37:06,914 "Oh, I don’t think I know him. Do you have a picture?" 681 00:37:08,582 --> 00:37:10,793 John knows who his accomplices were, 682 00:37:12,044 --> 00:37:17,091 and somehow he’s protected them, so the fact 683 00:37:17,133 --> 00:37:22,304 that he kind of threw Paske out there is suspicious. 684 00:37:23,305 --> 00:37:25,599 That was typical Gacy, sort like, 685 00:37:25,641 --> 00:37:27,643 "Don’t look over here. Look over there," 686 00:37:28,060 --> 00:37:30,521 so you never knew if he was telling the truth 687 00:37:30,563 --> 00:37:32,231 or he was really leading you somewhere 688 00:37:32,273 --> 00:37:35,276 that you should be going. You didn’t know with him. 689 00:37:35,317 --> 00:37:38,195 I think Phil Paske is the bridge here. 690 00:37:38,237 --> 00:37:41,699 He works for John Wayne Gacy, and he works with John Norman 691 00:37:41,741 --> 00:37:44,326 of "The Delta Project" sex-trafficking ring. 692 00:37:45,494 --> 00:37:47,413 Is that a coincidence? 693 00:37:49,373 --> 00:37:52,126 If nothing else, it’s worth looking into. 694 00:37:52,168 --> 00:37:55,379 I don’t know that they ever looked into it at all. 695 00:37:55,421 --> 00:37:58,340 I just don’t get that, 696 00:37:58,924 --> 00:38:03,095 so that contributes to this cloud of suspicion. 697 00:38:03,596 --> 00:38:07,850 You would think that as the generation passed 698 00:38:07,892 --> 00:38:09,351 that someone would say, 699 00:38:09,393 --> 00:38:13,397 "It’s time. It’s time to get to the bottom of this," 700 00:38:13,439 --> 00:38:16,609 and I just don’t see it happening. 701 00:38:26,285 --> 00:38:28,079 I have thought all along that we are going 702 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,581 to find more bodies attributable to John Gacy. 703 00:38:30,623 --> 00:38:36,295 I think the problem is tying them to him necessarily. 704 00:38:36,712 --> 00:38:38,881 I interviewed Detective Tovar, 705 00:38:38,923 --> 00:38:41,467 who was on the case and was riding with John Wayne Gacy, 706 00:38:41,509 --> 00:38:43,427 and he said Gacy said, 707 00:38:44,387 --> 00:38:46,013 "There may be as many of 45 victims." 708 00:38:46,055 --> 00:38:47,431 He looks at me 709 00:38:47,473 --> 00:38:48,808 with kind of almost like a twinkle in his eye. 710 00:38:48,849 --> 00:38:51,185 He says, "But 45 sounds like a good number." 711 00:38:52,061 --> 00:38:54,563 I talked to him enough times that I was pretty sure 712 00:38:54,605 --> 00:38:56,273 he was being honest. 713 00:38:56,315 --> 00:38:59,735 We’re putting on the dates of how he was killing people. 714 00:38:59,777 --> 00:39:03,030 Serial killers kill kind of in some kind of order. 715 00:39:03,531 --> 00:39:06,242 There was that period of time when he was traveling, 716 00:39:06,283 --> 00:39:08,244 so maybe he killed them somewhere else. 717 00:39:08,619 --> 00:39:10,663 Two or three of them were from out of state. 718 00:39:10,705 --> 00:39:14,083 Very first kid was from Iowa, Minnesota, Michigan, 719 00:39:14,125 --> 00:39:17,044 so could be from other states that just floated through town. 720 00:39:17,086 --> 00:39:18,254 He killed them. 721 00:39:18,295 --> 00:39:19,463 Maybe he buried them somewhere else 722 00:39:19,505 --> 00:39:21,298 or maybe threw them somewhere else. 723 00:39:21,340 --> 00:39:22,591 Just my own opinion, 724 00:39:22,633 --> 00:39:24,343 but I firmly believe there’s more. 725 00:39:25,010 --> 00:39:28,723 I don’t think John Wayne Gacy one day just woke up 726 00:39:28,764 --> 00:39:30,933 and started killing people. 727 00:39:30,975 --> 00:39:34,353 What was going on before that house? 728 00:39:34,895 --> 00:39:37,648 If he was killing people, where did he put those bodies? 729 00:39:37,690 --> 00:39:39,442 They’re not going to be in that house, 730 00:39:39,483 --> 00:39:41,152 so where are they? 731 00:39:42,194 --> 00:39:45,114 I had been contacted by Detective Bill Dorsch, 732 00:39:45,156 --> 00:39:46,657 who had an interesting story. 733 00:39:46,699 --> 00:39:50,786 He had known John Wayne Gacy before all this happened. 734 00:39:51,203 --> 00:39:53,205 A lot of the branches of my investigative work 735 00:39:53,247 --> 00:39:54,915 came from Detective Bill Dorsch. 736 00:39:55,666 --> 00:39:58,627 I’m a retired Chicago homicide detective. 737 00:39:58,669 --> 00:40:01,547 I started my career in 1970 as a patrolman. 738 00:40:02,673 --> 00:40:05,634 Back in 1974, I did meet John Gacy, 739 00:40:05,676 --> 00:40:07,803 invited to his house in Summerdale, 740 00:40:07,845 --> 00:40:09,805 and at that time, I was with my wife and one son. 741 00:40:09,847 --> 00:40:12,683 We had a meeting with his wife and her two children, 742 00:40:12,725 --> 00:40:17,021 and we had about 4 or 5 hours of dinner and congenial meeting, 743 00:40:17,063 --> 00:40:20,066 nothing more than that. From that conversation, 744 00:40:20,107 --> 00:40:23,486 I learned that John took care of the building 745 00:40:23,527 --> 00:40:24,862 where his mother was living 746 00:40:24,904 --> 00:40:26,655 just right over my shoulder here. 747 00:40:26,697 --> 00:40:29,492 He was the maintenance man, and I was living in an apartment 748 00:40:29,533 --> 00:40:31,452 just 50 yards away from it. 749 00:40:32,411 --> 00:40:35,539 Bill Dorsch lived just off the corner of Miami and Elston, 750 00:40:36,207 --> 00:40:39,668 and on the corner of Miami and Elston across Miami 751 00:40:39,710 --> 00:40:43,839 was this funny, triangular property 752 00:40:43,881 --> 00:40:46,050 with a small apartment building on it. 753 00:40:46,717 --> 00:40:48,469 Gacy’s mother lived there, 754 00:40:48,511 --> 00:40:50,221 and Gacy took care of the property 755 00:40:50,262 --> 00:40:53,766 and poured concrete and fixed plumbing or whatever. 756 00:40:55,643 --> 00:40:57,186 So Dorsch was coming home from work 757 00:40:57,228 --> 00:40:59,939 in the middle of the night one time in the mid-’70s, 758 00:41:00,606 --> 00:41:04,276 and he sees somebody in the shadows across the street 759 00:41:04,318 --> 00:41:06,987 in front of this building at Miami and Elston, 760 00:41:08,155 --> 00:41:14,245 and it’s Gacy carrying a shovel in the middle of the night. 761 00:41:14,286 --> 00:41:16,080 And I simply say to John, 762 00:41:16,122 --> 00:41:17,623 "John, it’s 3 o’clock in the morning. 763 00:41:17,665 --> 00:41:19,750 What the heck are you doing out here?" 764 00:41:19,792 --> 00:41:22,211 And John sort of laughed, and maybe I laughed too, 765 00:41:22,253 --> 00:41:24,714 when he threw me his answer, but he said, "Bill, you know me. 766 00:41:24,755 --> 00:41:26,716 There’s not enough hours in the day. 767 00:41:26,757 --> 00:41:28,384 I have to get it done when I can." 768 00:41:28,426 --> 00:41:31,220 Dorsch thought that was odd, and they made a joke about it, 769 00:41:31,262 --> 00:41:34,223 didn’t think anything of it until years later 770 00:41:34,265 --> 00:41:36,058 when the story broke of what had happened, 771 00:41:36,100 --> 00:41:40,104 and Dorsch said, "Boy, maybe there was more to that." 772 00:41:40,813 --> 00:41:45,568 In 1978, Gacy’s arrested, 773 00:41:46,027 --> 00:41:51,240 and Bill Dorsch has this horrible a-ha moment. 774 00:41:51,699 --> 00:41:55,703 He called the team investigating the case and said, 775 00:41:55,745 --> 00:41:59,790 "I just think you ought to know that I saw Gacy 776 00:41:59,832 --> 00:42:01,083 at a shovel at this property. 777 00:42:01,125 --> 00:42:03,502 You might want to take a look at it." 778 00:42:03,544 --> 00:42:05,463 He didn’t really think about it again, 779 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,760 figured that the investigators had done their due diligence 780 00:42:10,801 --> 00:42:12,720 and found nothing there. 781 00:42:18,184 --> 00:42:19,643 More than 20 years later, 782 00:42:20,144 --> 00:42:22,730 Bill is working on this murder investigation 783 00:42:22,772 --> 00:42:28,903 as a PI in the Northwest Suburbs with the Suburban Police 784 00:42:28,944 --> 00:42:30,613 and the Better Government Association, 785 00:42:30,654 --> 00:42:34,200 which is a local watchdog group, and they’re trading war stories, 786 00:42:34,241 --> 00:42:36,619 and he tells them this story 787 00:42:36,660 --> 00:42:39,288 about Gacy that’s always haunted him. 788 00:42:39,330 --> 00:42:42,917 And they contacted me about a couple days later 789 00:42:42,958 --> 00:42:45,753 and said, "Bill, if you can ever find a way where you can further 790 00:42:45,795 --> 00:42:49,006 that investigation, we’d like to know about it." 791 00:42:49,590 --> 00:42:53,052 I went back to my office, talked to my old homicide boss. 792 00:42:53,094 --> 00:42:55,179 He said to me, "Well, Bill, you’ve been talking about this 793 00:42:55,221 --> 00:42:57,348 all these years, about your suspicion, 794 00:42:57,390 --> 00:43:01,018 but we all know you just can’t dig without more proof." 795 00:43:01,685 --> 00:43:03,771 He says, "See what you can find out." 796 00:43:04,355 --> 00:43:05,898 So in 1998, 797 00:43:05,940 --> 00:43:10,528 Bill Dorsch interviewed all these other neighbors. 798 00:43:12,655 --> 00:43:14,323 John Wayne Gacy was the maintenance man 799 00:43:14,365 --> 00:43:15,991 for the apartment building 800 00:43:16,033 --> 00:43:18,661 located across from the house that I lived in as a youth. 801 00:43:18,703 --> 00:43:20,955 By the time I was 12 years old, about, 802 00:43:20,996 --> 00:43:24,834 I had become the lawn-mowing boy of the neighborhood. 803 00:43:25,334 --> 00:43:26,669 There was one day 804 00:43:26,711 --> 00:43:29,630 I was out mowing a lawn out on Elston Avenue, 805 00:43:29,672 --> 00:43:34,260 and a gentleman came up to me, and he called me over and said, 806 00:43:34,301 --> 00:43:36,887 "Son, are you interested in mowing more lawns?" 807 00:43:36,929 --> 00:43:40,224 All I knew is his name was John. I knew nothing more about him. 808 00:43:41,350 --> 00:43:44,895 Once I had that down, he had me starting to haul trash 809 00:43:44,937 --> 00:43:47,273 from the buildings. The home that I lived in 810 00:43:47,314 --> 00:43:50,943 was directly across from the corner of the building, 811 00:43:50,985 --> 00:43:55,281 so my windows of where I lived actually look into the windows 812 00:43:55,322 --> 00:43:58,159 where John’s mother was residing at the time. 813 00:44:02,371 --> 00:44:05,916 One day, I was taking trash out from the units, 814 00:44:05,958 --> 00:44:07,376 and I opened up the gate. 815 00:44:07,418 --> 00:44:09,462 John was standing there, and he just simply looked at me 816 00:44:09,503 --> 00:44:11,422 and said, "Mike," he says, "We’re doing some digging here. 817 00:44:11,464 --> 00:44:14,091 You’re going to have to go around the building." 818 00:44:14,133 --> 00:44:17,845 He was leaning against the fence watching another gentleman 819 00:44:17,887 --> 00:44:19,930 down in a hole doing all the manual digging. 820 00:44:20,431 --> 00:44:23,684 I would say it had to be 6 to 8 feet in depth. 821 00:44:24,393 --> 00:44:27,229 It was actually pretty much the entire parking lot. 822 00:44:28,064 --> 00:44:31,400 Suddenly, there were 3-foot, 4-foot-deep trenches 823 00:44:31,442 --> 00:44:34,820 that were 2 feet wide running along the sidewalks. 824 00:44:36,447 --> 00:44:38,657 I would see those ditches daily, 825 00:44:38,699 --> 00:44:41,911 and I went to school one morning, 826 00:44:41,952 --> 00:44:43,537 and the ditches were filled. 827 00:44:43,579 --> 00:44:46,707 Now, those ditches were not filled that evening filled, 828 00:44:46,749 --> 00:44:49,293 so they were filled sometime between 829 00:44:49,335 --> 00:44:50,961 when I went to bed at night 830 00:44:51,003 --> 00:44:53,172 and when I went to school at 7 o’clock in the morning. 831 00:44:53,214 --> 00:44:56,634 Why they were filled overnight, I don’t know. 832 00:44:56,675 --> 00:44:57,885 When they were filled, 833 00:44:57,927 --> 00:44:59,637 they had bushes that were put in there 834 00:44:59,678 --> 00:45:01,680 about every 4 feet from each other. 835 00:45:02,473 --> 00:45:03,766 To this day, it questions me. 836 00:45:03,808 --> 00:45:06,268 Why would you dig a trench 3 to 4 feet deep, 837 00:45:06,310 --> 00:45:09,397 about 2 feet wide to put in a small bush 838 00:45:09,438 --> 00:45:12,525 when you can just dig holes and put those bushes in there? 839 00:45:13,776 --> 00:45:16,821 Bill Dorsch tried to contact other people who had lived 840 00:45:16,862 --> 00:45:21,575 around the building who might remember Gacy there. 841 00:45:22,326 --> 00:45:25,162 And from everything that the witnesses were saying, 842 00:45:25,663 --> 00:45:27,540 there was some suspicious activity 843 00:45:27,581 --> 00:45:29,083 going on at that location. 844 00:45:29,792 --> 00:45:33,921 Another neighbor lived across Elston on the corner 845 00:45:33,963 --> 00:45:36,841 and used to get up in the middle of the night 846 00:45:36,882 --> 00:45:38,592 to take care of a sick child 847 00:45:39,009 --> 00:45:42,096 and had many memories of sitting at his kitchen table 848 00:45:42,138 --> 00:45:43,848 in the middle of the night 849 00:45:43,889 --> 00:45:45,474 looking out the window into the darkness, 850 00:45:45,516 --> 00:45:50,813 seeing John Gacy dragging large garbage bags across the yard, 851 00:45:50,855 --> 00:45:53,024 large, heavy garbage bags across the yard 852 00:45:53,065 --> 00:45:54,942 in the middle of the night. 853 00:45:55,693 --> 00:45:57,945 Another neighbor, Bruno Muzinski, 854 00:45:58,529 --> 00:46:01,449 lived in the basement apartment of the Miami 855 00:46:01,490 --> 00:46:05,703 and Elston building itself. He was another police officer. 856 00:46:06,579 --> 00:46:10,166 The first time I met him, it was good. 857 00:46:10,207 --> 00:46:14,045 He looked like a regular guy, did his work, 858 00:46:15,046 --> 00:46:17,131 and I had no problems with him. 859 00:46:17,590 --> 00:46:20,051 He was in my apartment. We had coffee together. 860 00:46:20,092 --> 00:46:25,264 We talked together, but as the months went by, he changed. 861 00:46:25,306 --> 00:46:26,974 He got different. 862 00:46:33,230 --> 00:46:37,234 He looked different. His manners were different. 863 00:46:39,403 --> 00:46:41,906 He’d come around. His hair was all disheveled. 864 00:46:42,740 --> 00:46:47,620 His eyes were all glassy, and he just wasn’t right. 865 00:46:47,661 --> 00:46:51,749 I could see it in his eyes. He just wasn’t right. 866 00:46:51,791 --> 00:46:53,876 He looked like he was in a horror movie. 867 00:46:53,918 --> 00:46:55,628 Come around at night, 868 00:46:55,669 --> 00:46:58,756 and he’d go into the laundry room across from my apartment, 869 00:46:59,423 --> 00:47:06,055 and I’d hear banging and digging, the hammer, 870 00:47:06,097 --> 00:47:08,974 with the sledgehammer pounding the concrete down there. 871 00:47:09,517 --> 00:47:11,852 We couldn’t figure out what was going on down there, 872 00:47:11,894 --> 00:47:16,023 and it was a big question mark 873 00:47:18,150 --> 00:47:20,611 and waking us up during the middle of the night. 874 00:47:21,404 --> 00:47:24,198 Years later, when Bruno Muzinski heard 875 00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:26,200 that Gacy had been arrested, 876 00:47:26,242 --> 00:47:30,955 he called his own police station and reported, 877 00:47:31,664 --> 00:47:36,544 "I saw some weird stuff at this building at Miami and Elston. 878 00:47:37,586 --> 00:47:38,713 You should tell the higher ups 879 00:47:38,754 --> 00:47:40,172 they might want to check it out." 880 00:47:40,214 --> 00:47:42,550 So I called the detective division up, 881 00:47:42,591 --> 00:47:45,177 and I told him who I was, and I told him the things 882 00:47:45,219 --> 00:47:47,304 that were going on around the building and everything, 883 00:47:47,346 --> 00:47:50,975 and he says, "Bruno, we don’t want any more bodies." 884 00:47:51,642 --> 00:47:54,979 I was sort of shocked. I thought they’d want to get everything. 885 00:47:55,730 --> 00:47:58,482 They’d want to do everything in their power 886 00:47:58,524 --> 00:48:02,862 to find out where everybody was and who was killed 887 00:48:02,903 --> 00:48:05,990 and get closure for the other families. 888 00:48:07,658 --> 00:48:09,326 But I guess not. 889 00:48:12,580 --> 00:48:17,543 Bill found other neighbors who, when Gacy was arrested, 890 00:48:17,585 --> 00:48:20,796 had the same reaction he did. They had seen Gacy 891 00:48:20,838 --> 00:48:22,923 doing something strange at this property, 892 00:48:22,965 --> 00:48:25,843 and Bruno Muzinski called the police to say, 893 00:48:25,885 --> 00:48:27,136 "You ought to take a look." 894 00:48:27,178 --> 00:48:28,596 That’s a very big issue for me. 895 00:48:28,637 --> 00:48:30,347 I always thought that perhaps I was the only one 896 00:48:30,389 --> 00:48:32,266 that ever called the police department. 897 00:48:32,308 --> 00:48:33,934 The police knew about all this, 898 00:48:33,976 --> 00:48:36,979 and you would expect that they would act on this information, 899 00:48:37,021 --> 00:48:38,439 and, in fact, they didn’t, 900 00:48:38,481 --> 00:48:41,609 so that’s when I began a search for technology 901 00:48:41,650 --> 00:48:44,236 that could be used that we couldn’t use before, 902 00:48:44,278 --> 00:48:47,365 and that’s when I came upon the ground-penetrating radar. 903 00:48:50,159 --> 00:48:52,203 When we did the ground-penetrating radar, 904 00:48:52,244 --> 00:48:55,331 we had a company from out east, and Ron LaBarca, 905 00:48:55,373 --> 00:48:57,541 who was president of that company, came out, 906 00:48:57,583 --> 00:49:00,252 and he assisted us with his expertise. 907 00:49:01,337 --> 00:49:03,839 Ron LaBarca’s survey revealed 908 00:49:03,881 --> 00:49:06,884 what he called anomalies underground. 909 00:49:07,301 --> 00:49:11,680 He would not go so far himself 910 00:49:11,722 --> 00:49:14,850 as to say whether or not they would be human remains, 911 00:49:14,892 --> 00:49:18,104 but there were anomalies in the soil. 912 00:49:19,772 --> 00:49:22,692 Finding an indication that a body may be buried 913 00:49:22,733 --> 00:49:25,653 through the use of equipment is not proof enough. 914 00:49:25,695 --> 00:49:29,573 You have to be able to dig before you know what’s there, 915 00:49:29,615 --> 00:49:31,158 but in law enforcement, 916 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,703 we all know that’s the final answer to the question. 917 00:49:33,744 --> 00:49:35,413 You have to dig. 918 00:49:42,211 --> 00:49:44,672 As an investigator, you continue to seek the truth, 919 00:49:44,714 --> 00:49:46,424 and that’s all I was trying to do. 920 00:49:46,465 --> 00:49:49,677 Never did I suspect the Chicago Police Department 921 00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,138 was not in the same mood as I was 922 00:49:52,179 --> 00:49:54,473 or didn’t have the same intention as I did. 923 00:49:55,474 --> 00:49:59,520 Bill Dorsch interviewed all these other neighbors, 924 00:49:59,562 --> 00:50:01,856 and then the police interviewed them 925 00:50:02,481 --> 00:50:04,400 before filing the search warrant. 926 00:50:05,317 --> 00:50:08,320 Just before that investigation occurred in 1998, 927 00:50:09,905 --> 00:50:14,785 William Dorsch is told by insiders nothing would be found. 928 00:50:14,827 --> 00:50:17,621 Everything was going well up until the second meeting 929 00:50:17,663 --> 00:50:19,081 with the state’s attorneys office, 930 00:50:19,123 --> 00:50:21,709 and my fellow detectives from area five, 931 00:50:21,751 --> 00:50:23,377 we had a meeting, 932 00:50:23,419 --> 00:50:27,006 and I was ordered from people that I used to work with that 933 00:50:27,048 --> 00:50:29,175 there was not really going to be a dig, 934 00:50:29,216 --> 00:50:31,927 that they were not intent on finding any bodies. 935 00:50:34,764 --> 00:50:39,560 So in 1998, Mike Nelson drew a diagram of the yard 936 00:50:39,602 --> 00:50:42,229 indicating where the trenches had been 937 00:50:42,271 --> 00:50:44,398 that he’d had to mow the grass around. 938 00:50:45,274 --> 00:50:49,403 I recall specifically one spot of the property 939 00:50:49,445 --> 00:50:51,364 where there was a large bush, 940 00:50:51,405 --> 00:50:53,991 and it would’ve been on the Elston-Miami intersection 941 00:50:54,033 --> 00:50:57,161 of the grass, and it was very thorny, 942 00:50:57,203 --> 00:50:59,705 and I recall that it has a massive root structure 943 00:50:59,747 --> 00:51:02,249 that you can’t really do anything with, 944 00:51:02,291 --> 00:51:03,834 so when I drew my schematic, 945 00:51:03,876 --> 00:51:07,088 I specifically put on that corner that that bush was there, 946 00:51:07,129 --> 00:51:09,632 that that bush was there the whole time I grew up 947 00:51:09,673 --> 00:51:12,927 and that absolutely nothing could’ve ever been dug there. 948 00:51:13,511 --> 00:51:15,930 I did watch what was going on through news media 949 00:51:15,971 --> 00:51:17,598 just to see what was happening, 950 00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,518 and they squared off the areas and all the areas 951 00:51:20,559 --> 00:51:22,645 that I basically had marked on the lawn. 952 00:51:22,686 --> 00:51:25,398 They had put the tent over a spot in the yard 953 00:51:25,439 --> 00:51:29,402 where there had been a giant bush in 1978. 954 00:51:29,443 --> 00:51:31,278 They dug where I told them not to dig, 955 00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,114 and that was specifically one spot. 956 00:51:33,155 --> 00:51:36,283 I said, "Don’t even waste your time. There’s nothing there." 957 00:51:36,325 --> 00:51:38,369 Police in Chicago said they have no evidence 958 00:51:38,411 --> 00:51:40,454 that serial killer John Wayne Gacy 959 00:51:40,496 --> 00:51:42,373 buried bodies of his victims 960 00:51:42,415 --> 00:51:44,959 in the backyard of his mother’s apartment building. 961 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:46,293 Holes were dug in the ground Monday 962 00:51:46,335 --> 00:51:48,337 after a former Chicago detective said 963 00:51:48,379 --> 00:51:51,340 that he had seen Gacy near the building with a shovel. 964 00:51:53,217 --> 00:51:54,760 I was told at the beginning that the Chicago 965 00:51:54,802 --> 00:51:56,345 Police Department was going to do everything 966 00:51:56,387 --> 00:51:58,973 they could to further this investigation. 967 00:51:59,014 --> 00:52:00,641 I trusted them. 968 00:52:00,683 --> 00:52:03,561 I learned quickly that that was not the right thing to do. 969 00:52:03,602 --> 00:52:07,440 So Bill was very upset. He felt he couldn’t 970 00:52:08,065 --> 00:52:09,817 trust his friends in the police department. 971 00:52:09,859 --> 00:52:14,363 He didn’t trust the brass who had authorized the dig. 972 00:52:15,031 --> 00:52:17,908 Dorsch felt really terrible. 973 00:52:17,950 --> 00:52:19,910 I guess the biggest thing is, 974 00:52:19,952 --> 00:52:21,495 I realize that Bill Dorsch alone, 975 00:52:21,537 --> 00:52:24,206 even as an experienced investigator, 976 00:52:24,707 --> 00:52:26,125 has very little power. 977 00:52:26,167 --> 00:52:29,003 I now recognize that if I don’t tell the story now, 978 00:52:29,045 --> 00:52:30,337 it may never get told. 979 00:52:30,379 --> 00:52:34,050 Bill Dorsch told me about the 1998 dig, 980 00:52:34,550 --> 00:52:36,927 and I obtained the documents from the radar company, 981 00:52:36,969 --> 00:52:40,097 and then I was able to call the head of that radar company 982 00:52:40,139 --> 00:52:43,809 to have a conversation with him to get his thoughts on that, 983 00:52:43,851 --> 00:52:48,731 and he said, "Yeah, we gave them 17 targets to dig 984 00:52:48,773 --> 00:52:51,692 where we found something that was worth looking at, 985 00:52:51,734 --> 00:52:53,277 and the Chicago Police Department 986 00:52:53,319 --> 00:52:55,654 would only dig in two spots." 987 00:52:56,364 --> 00:52:58,866 They say all they found was a glass marble, 988 00:52:58,908 --> 00:53:00,701 a saucepan and some wire. 989 00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,829 As far as they were concerned, the case was closed. 990 00:53:03,871 --> 00:53:06,707 The president of the US Radar Company writes, 991 00:53:06,749 --> 00:53:09,043 "In a proper investigation, the authorities would’ve been 992 00:53:09,085 --> 00:53:11,545 more willing to excavate any possibility." 993 00:53:11,587 --> 00:53:13,422 So I thought that was pretty interesting 994 00:53:13,464 --> 00:53:16,801 that even the head of the radar company 995 00:53:16,842 --> 00:53:19,011 thought that the Chicago Police Department 996 00:53:19,053 --> 00:53:22,223 didn’t do a thorough job in that 1998 investigation. 997 00:53:22,765 --> 00:53:26,060 I found Detective Bill Dorsch credible. 998 00:53:26,102 --> 00:53:29,146 He certainly had all the information. 999 00:53:29,188 --> 00:53:31,315 He was passionate about what he was doing, 1000 00:53:31,357 --> 00:53:33,275 didn’t really have anything to gain by it. 1001 00:53:33,317 --> 00:53:35,444 You would think anybody would want to know 1002 00:53:36,237 --> 00:53:39,615 the answers to the questions about the Miami Avenue address. 1003 00:53:40,908 --> 00:53:46,664 Surely, a police department would only look good 1004 00:53:47,206 --> 00:53:49,625 if they were to find the bodies, 1005 00:53:49,667 --> 00:53:53,129 identify the bodies, contact the families and bring closure. 1006 00:53:54,004 --> 00:53:57,049 I can find no other reason for not doing, 1007 00:53:57,091 --> 00:54:00,469 except certain people in power don’t want it done. 1008 00:54:01,095 --> 00:54:04,640 You start to sense that maybe there’s a cover-up here, 1009 00:54:05,182 --> 00:54:07,268 that careers are made on this case, 1010 00:54:07,727 --> 00:54:11,856 and it certainly would not bode well for the police department 1011 00:54:11,897 --> 00:54:13,941 to reveal 1012 00:54:13,983 --> 00:54:16,986 that those investigations were not done very well. 1013 00:54:17,445 --> 00:54:21,574 I’m sure there were people in the police department 1014 00:54:22,158 --> 00:54:23,993 and the state’s attorney’s office that 1015 00:54:24,035 --> 00:54:28,497 wanted Bill Dorsch to go away. But he didn’t.