1 00:00:08,404 --> 00:00:09,572 I have a lot of things that I’ve forgotten, 2 00:00:09,613 --> 00:00:11,323 that I can’t remember. 3 00:00:11,365 --> 00:00:13,242 For instance, I can go back to my childhood and stuff, 4 00:00:13,284 --> 00:00:16,454 and I still remember that, but yet, I can go into the ’70s, 5 00:00:17,121 --> 00:00:19,290 and there are a lot of things I can’t remember. 6 00:00:19,331 --> 00:00:21,751 The same thing with the victims: I’ve looked at all of ... 7 00:00:21,792 --> 00:00:23,502 I don’t know if you notice here. 8 00:00:23,544 --> 00:00:25,087 We’ve got pictures of every one of the victims here, 9 00:00:25,129 --> 00:00:27,339 and believe it or not, for the last 12 years, 10 00:00:27,381 --> 00:00:29,592 I’ve studied these photos of these victims, 11 00:00:30,301 --> 00:00:31,761 and there is no ... 12 00:00:33,846 --> 00:00:36,515 We have a shot of all of the victims together here, 13 00:00:37,641 --> 00:00:40,352 and when you look over at the photos, 14 00:00:40,394 --> 00:00:43,189 I have no recollection of any of them, never met them. 15 00:00:43,814 --> 00:00:45,649 And we’ve gone over this more than once. 16 00:00:45,691 --> 00:00:49,236 It’s just names and faces, and when you look at them ... 17 00:00:52,490 --> 00:00:54,533 The thing of it is, we took it a step further. 18 00:00:54,575 --> 00:00:55,826 We went into their backgrounds. 19 00:00:55,868 --> 00:00:57,703 I wanted to know where they were at, 20 00:00:57,745 --> 00:01:00,539 what schools they attended, who they hung out with 21 00:01:01,665 --> 00:01:04,168 and what kind of activities they were into, 22 00:01:04,210 --> 00:01:06,337 and that’s what we dug up on each one of the victims, 23 00:01:06,379 --> 00:01:08,631 but still, there is no association. 24 00:01:09,507 --> 00:01:12,385 None of them never worked for me. None of them ... 25 00:01:12,426 --> 00:01:14,929 They never went to any places that I ever hung around 26 00:01:14,970 --> 00:01:16,639 because I didn’t hang around that many places. 27 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:18,599 Unless you were involved in politics 28 00:01:18,974 --> 00:01:21,227 or if you were involved in clowning, 29 00:01:21,268 --> 00:01:23,187 then I might have ran into you. 30 00:01:23,229 --> 00:01:24,897 But there’s no way I could’ve run into any of them. 31 00:02:03,936 --> 00:02:07,481 I was reviewing the interview last night, 32 00:02:07,523 --> 00:02:10,443 and having listened to those lies for so many years, 33 00:02:10,484 --> 00:02:13,696 it’s like ... I found I wasn’t really listening. 34 00:02:14,321 --> 00:02:19,660 I was watching the other tells: the eye motions, 35 00:02:19,702 --> 00:02:23,289 the hand motions, the hands on the book. 36 00:02:23,330 --> 00:02:24,582 They’ve got all that jewelry 37 00:02:24,623 --> 00:02:26,542 that doesn’t belong to the victim. 38 00:02:26,584 --> 00:02:28,627 They’ve got the two clown suits that don’t belong to the victim. 39 00:02:28,669 --> 00:02:31,380 John researched all of his victims. 40 00:02:31,922 --> 00:02:35,259 He would put together background information. 41 00:02:35,301 --> 00:02:39,722 He had chapters, 20, 30 pages on victims, 42 00:02:39,764 --> 00:02:44,560 and a lot of it was clearly made up or hearsay, 43 00:02:44,602 --> 00:02:48,773 but he felt it was something that made a case for him, 44 00:02:49,774 --> 00:02:52,693 that, "Well, yeah, 45 00:02:52,735 --> 00:02:55,529 maybe I killed them, but maybe they deserved it." 46 00:02:55,571 --> 00:02:57,865 Just like I consider myself the 34th victim, 47 00:02:58,657 --> 00:03:01,452 I consider the families victims, as well, 48 00:03:01,911 --> 00:03:04,372 because they did not get justice 49 00:03:04,997 --> 00:03:07,541 from the shoddy investigation all the way down through ... 50 00:03:07,583 --> 00:03:08,918 It wasn’t until just 51 00:03:08,959 --> 00:03:13,881 recently that in going through my archives, 52 00:03:14,882 --> 00:03:21,597 I found some tapes that John had given me in March of ’94 53 00:03:22,598 --> 00:03:24,600 before his execution. 54 00:03:24,642 --> 00:03:28,437 He didn’t want the guards cleaning out his cell, 55 00:03:28,479 --> 00:03:32,483 so one day, I went out of there with tapes and books, 56 00:03:34,068 --> 00:03:35,820 and I just stuffed them in a box, 57 00:03:36,946 --> 00:03:41,075 so they sat in that box until about a year ago, 58 00:03:42,493 --> 00:03:44,036 and I’m going, 59 00:03:44,078 --> 00:03:46,956 "Oh, those tapes aren’t with all the other tapes." 60 00:03:48,833 --> 00:03:50,042 So we listened to them. 61 00:03:50,084 --> 00:03:51,877 What’d you do with them? 62 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:54,672 Threw them downstairs in the basement. 63 00:03:54,714 --> 00:03:56,006 Just threw them down there? 64 00:03:56,048 --> 00:03:57,925 Just threw them down in the crawl space. 65 00:03:58,676 --> 00:04:03,806 It’s Gacy confessing and mostly saying, "Yeah. 66 00:04:03,848 --> 00:04:06,976 I did that. I don’t know why." 67 00:04:07,643 --> 00:04:10,563 All the ones you remember seem to be is house itself. 68 00:04:10,604 --> 00:04:12,356 Yeah. 69 00:04:12,398 --> 00:04:15,693 There is this other person, who I think is his lawyer. 70 00:04:16,485 --> 00:04:18,738 Those last few were killed in the house. 71 00:04:18,779 --> 00:04:19,947 All the ones you remember 72 00:04:19,989 --> 00:04:22,408 were found dead or killed in the house. 73 00:04:22,450 --> 00:04:24,869 Or the garage, yeah. Killed in the garage? 74 00:04:26,370 --> 00:04:27,663 Yeah. 75 00:04:27,705 --> 00:04:29,498 Why were the last few dumped in a river, 76 00:04:29,540 --> 00:04:31,042 as opposed to being buried? 77 00:04:31,876 --> 00:04:35,046 I don’t know. It was easier. 78 00:04:38,090 --> 00:04:46,974 This is probably in early ’79 while he was still nervous. 79 00:04:47,016 --> 00:04:50,061 You can hear that in his voice. He’s not in control. He’s upset. 80 00:04:51,145 --> 00:04:52,938 I think I killed him, but I don’t know. 81 00:04:52,980 --> 00:04:55,107 What do you mean, you think you killed him? 82 00:04:55,775 --> 00:04:57,485 Well, he was dead. 83 00:04:59,945 --> 00:05:04,575 I don’t quite understand why he gave them to me, 84 00:05:04,950 --> 00:05:09,830 but these tapes, he knew what was on them. 85 00:05:10,915 --> 00:05:12,833 He had to have. 86 00:05:12,875 --> 00:05:14,794 There is one guy I remember taking out of the house 87 00:05:14,835 --> 00:05:16,879 and throwing him in the forest preserve. 88 00:05:17,755 --> 00:05:19,507 That was 2 years ago. 89 00:05:20,716 --> 00:05:22,635 Took him out of the house? Yeah. 90 00:05:22,676 --> 00:05:24,428 Then put him in the woods. 91 00:05:25,429 --> 00:05:27,014 Why the hell is that hitting me now? 92 00:05:27,056 --> 00:05:29,183 Bury him in the woods? No, I didn’t bury him. 93 00:05:29,809 --> 00:05:31,477 Just laid him in the woods. 94 00:05:31,519 --> 00:05:33,062 I just took him out in the woods and ... 95 00:05:33,104 --> 00:05:35,064 What woods? 96 00:05:35,106 --> 00:05:37,066 Over by Maine Township High School. 97 00:05:38,943 --> 00:05:40,861 You took him out of your house, though? 98 00:05:40,903 --> 00:05:42,613 Yeah. He was in my house. 99 00:05:43,072 --> 00:05:45,157 He was convicted of 33 murders, 100 00:05:46,158 --> 00:05:50,955 but there were many missing persons or murders 101 00:05:50,996 --> 00:05:54,750 that happened during John’s active period 102 00:05:54,792 --> 00:05:58,796 that could have been his work. 103 00:06:00,131 --> 00:06:05,845 There’s no reason to think that John only killed 33 victims. 104 00:06:06,887 --> 00:06:11,016 He had a pattern. He had a success rate, 105 00:06:12,643 --> 00:06:14,770 and he was prolific in everything he did. 106 00:06:24,655 --> 00:06:26,240 When investigators began taking bodies 107 00:06:26,282 --> 00:06:27,783 out of the crawl space 108 00:06:27,825 --> 00:06:29,994 under John Wayne Gacy’s Norwood Park home, 109 00:06:30,036 --> 00:06:32,538 they were never able to identify eight of them. 110 00:06:33,164 --> 00:06:34,832 Now, Cook County sheriff Tom Dart 111 00:06:34,874 --> 00:06:37,209 is hoping to offer their families some closure 112 00:06:37,251 --> 00:06:39,795 by asking them to come forward with a DNA sample 113 00:06:39,837 --> 00:06:42,131 that can be matched to newly extracted DNA. 114 00:06:42,715 --> 00:06:44,216 We haven’t forgotten. 115 00:06:48,554 --> 00:06:53,559 Reopening the case was really a strange sort of story. 116 00:06:53,601 --> 00:06:56,687 When I first got in office, 117 00:06:57,605 --> 00:07:01,484 I was wanting to do things differently. 118 00:07:01,525 --> 00:07:04,111 With all the advances that we’ve had in our ... 119 00:07:05,613 --> 00:07:06,989 not just on the criminal side of things, 120 00:07:07,031 --> 00:07:10,034 but just technology and particularly DNA ... 121 00:07:10,076 --> 00:07:15,581 I felt that cold cases should be reexamined. 122 00:07:17,291 --> 00:07:19,668 At the time, we had a detective that was working with us named 123 00:07:19,710 --> 00:07:22,004 Jason Moran, and he came to me, and he said, 124 00:07:22,046 --> 00:07:25,549 "Well, what about us working on the Gacy case first?" 125 00:07:26,008 --> 00:07:29,136 And I go, "Listen, there’s nothing cold about this case. 126 00:07:29,178 --> 00:07:32,890 Gacy was caught, convicted, executed. 127 00:07:33,265 --> 00:07:34,975 What are you talking about?" 128 00:07:35,893 --> 00:07:37,770 The sheriff and I, we were in the process 129 00:07:37,812 --> 00:07:41,190 of sort of organizing things and getting our cases together, 130 00:07:41,232 --> 00:07:42,817 and I came across the cabinet. 131 00:07:42,858 --> 00:07:47,863 It said 1978, Gacy, and just out of curiosity, 132 00:07:47,905 --> 00:07:50,700 I opened it up, and by doing that, I learned 133 00:07:50,741 --> 00:07:54,286 that eight of Gacy’s 33 victims were never identified. 134 00:07:56,664 --> 00:07:58,874 Friends and relatives of missing teenage boys 135 00:07:58,916 --> 00:08:00,710 have been calling from all over the country 136 00:08:00,751 --> 00:08:02,920 to learn more about this bizarre crime. 137 00:08:03,921 --> 00:08:05,881 We were under the impression that the Gacy case 138 00:08:05,923 --> 00:08:07,174 was cleared and closed. 139 00:08:07,216 --> 00:08:09,552 The offender was known, was found guilty, 140 00:08:09,593 --> 00:08:12,263 and the victims had been identified, cleared and closed, 141 00:08:13,097 --> 00:08:15,641 but it wasn’t, and it wasn’t for lack of trying. 142 00:08:16,100 --> 00:08:20,938 My predecessors did what they could to identify 143 00:08:20,980 --> 00:08:22,565 every last victim. 144 00:08:22,606 --> 00:08:25,026 Doctors and dentists matched bones and teeth 145 00:08:25,067 --> 00:08:26,986 against medical records and X-rays. 146 00:08:27,653 --> 00:08:29,739 The bodies found under John Gacy’s house 147 00:08:29,780 --> 00:08:31,615 were simply too decomposed 148 00:08:31,657 --> 00:08:33,826 to allow any other means of identification. 149 00:08:34,827 --> 00:08:36,871 But in the end, there was eight 150 00:08:36,912 --> 00:08:39,957 that were never identified, eight forgotten people, 151 00:08:41,125 --> 00:08:43,627 so I took that information to the sheriff. 152 00:08:49,675 --> 00:08:51,886 Back in the ’70s, everything was dental records. 153 00:08:51,927 --> 00:08:54,096 That was the only way you could identify people. 154 00:08:54,138 --> 00:08:59,685 Jason was adamant that based on new technologies and DNA 155 00:08:59,727 --> 00:09:02,730 that we could make some headway. 156 00:09:06,067 --> 00:09:10,154 The point of any cold case is to bring contemporary 157 00:09:10,196 --> 00:09:12,656 investigative methods to an old investigation. 158 00:09:13,407 --> 00:09:16,786 We knew that in this case, DNA would be helpful. 159 00:09:18,454 --> 00:09:23,250 To start, we needed a biological sample from each victim 160 00:09:24,835 --> 00:09:27,213 so we could test it in a lab 161 00:09:27,254 --> 00:09:29,715 and see if we could get suitable DNA profiles, 162 00:09:30,299 --> 00:09:33,052 so the first thing we had to do was go to the bodies. 163 00:09:34,178 --> 00:09:36,263 In June, the sheriff’s office exhumed the jawbones 164 00:09:36,305 --> 00:09:39,433 of eight unnamed victims buried at a Homewood cemetery. 165 00:09:39,475 --> 00:09:42,019 They were originally saved to compare to dental records 166 00:09:42,061 --> 00:09:44,814 but contained enough DNA for four complete profiles. 167 00:09:44,855 --> 00:09:46,315 In September, 168 00:09:46,357 --> 00:09:48,818 bodies were exhumed from four Chicago-area cemeteries, 169 00:09:48,859 --> 00:09:51,821 and samples were sent to labs of the University of North Texas, 170 00:09:51,862 --> 00:09:54,115 where additional DNA profiles were extracted. 171 00:09:54,990 --> 00:09:59,829 That process got us to where we had, on most of the victims, 172 00:09:59,870 --> 00:10:02,873 very good profiles. They were all suitable 173 00:10:03,332 --> 00:10:06,001 for comparison to family members of missing persons, 174 00:10:06,877 --> 00:10:08,379 and that was really 175 00:10:08,963 --> 00:10:12,049 when we launched the investigation to the public. 176 00:10:12,091 --> 00:10:14,343 Cook County sheriff Tom Dart is calling on families 177 00:10:14,385 --> 00:10:16,262 who think a loved one may have been a victim of 178 00:10:16,303 --> 00:10:20,015 John Wayne Gacy to come forward and offer up a DNA sample. 179 00:10:20,057 --> 00:10:21,684 In particular, the sheriff’s department 180 00:10:21,726 --> 00:10:23,185 is looking for victims of relatives of victims 181 00:10:23,227 --> 00:10:27,273 who disappeared between 1970 and December 22nd, 1978. 182 00:10:27,314 --> 00:10:30,192 Well, right away, the phones and the e-mails 183 00:10:30,234 --> 00:10:33,279 started flowing in, people from all over the country 184 00:10:34,071 --> 00:10:35,948 looking for their missing loved one. 185 00:10:37,491 --> 00:10:39,076 It was overwhelming. 186 00:10:39,118 --> 00:10:42,371 Within a day, we had 70, 80 leads. 187 00:10:44,790 --> 00:10:47,251 I never thought it was going to be easy. 188 00:10:47,293 --> 00:10:48,878 What I did think, though, 189 00:10:48,919 --> 00:10:50,796 it was going to be relatively straightforward 190 00:10:50,838 --> 00:10:53,758 in running it out. For the life of me, 191 00:10:53,799 --> 00:10:57,720 I had no idea what direction it would take, 192 00:10:57,762 --> 00:11:01,140 and I had no idea on how far it would go. 193 00:11:16,530 --> 00:11:19,867 One of the first leads to come in was a lead 194 00:11:20,368 --> 00:11:22,870 representing a missing boy named William Bundy. 195 00:11:24,246 --> 00:11:25,998 It was actually two leads that came in. 196 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,541 One was from his sister, Laura. 197 00:11:28,250 --> 00:11:30,086 I remember leaving that one night, 198 00:11:30,127 --> 00:11:31,462 saying he was going to go to a party, 199 00:11:31,504 --> 00:11:33,381 and that was the last time I saw him. 200 00:11:34,965 --> 00:11:39,595 His sister basically explains that in about 1976, 201 00:11:40,471 --> 00:11:44,392 her brother got dressed to go to a party, left the house, 202 00:11:44,433 --> 00:11:46,602 and he was never seen or heard from again. 203 00:11:46,644 --> 00:11:48,938 They filled out a missing-persons report 204 00:11:48,979 --> 00:11:50,606 with the Chicago Police Department. 205 00:11:53,025 --> 00:11:55,194 Chicago Police Department couldn’t find him, 206 00:11:56,445 --> 00:11:59,407 and a couple years later, the Gacy case broke, 207 00:12:01,075 --> 00:12:03,911 and they immediately said, "Maybe this is Bill." 208 00:12:05,705 --> 00:12:08,249 They went to my predecessors, who said, 209 00:12:08,290 --> 00:12:10,418 "Well, do you have dental records? 210 00:12:12,086 --> 00:12:14,213 We need dental records to compare to these bodies," 211 00:12:14,255 --> 00:12:16,173 so they went to their dentist, but he said, 212 00:12:16,215 --> 00:12:19,051 "I destroyed all my records when I retired. 213 00:12:19,468 --> 00:12:21,679 I don’t have any dental records for Bill." 214 00:12:21,721 --> 00:12:24,265 At that time, there was really no other way 215 00:12:24,306 --> 00:12:28,978 to identify a markedly decomposed or skeletal remains 216 00:12:29,019 --> 00:12:31,939 other than dental records, so that was it. 217 00:12:31,981 --> 00:12:33,691 There was nothing more they could do. 218 00:12:36,402 --> 00:12:40,114 Another lead was from his friend from growing up. 219 00:12:40,614 --> 00:12:43,617 Bill’s friend told me that the last time he saw Bill alive, 220 00:12:45,327 --> 00:12:46,704 Bill had came up, 221 00:12:46,746 --> 00:12:49,081 and he had a big wad of money in his pocket, 222 00:12:49,123 --> 00:12:52,710 maybe a couple hundred bucks, and in the ’70s for a young guy, 223 00:12:52,752 --> 00:12:55,504 a couple hundred bucks was a lot of money. 224 00:12:56,505 --> 00:12:58,090 So he said, "Where’d you get that money from? 225 00:12:58,132 --> 00:12:59,592 You selling drugs?" 226 00:12:59,633 --> 00:13:01,469 He goes, "No, I’m working construction for a guy," 227 00:13:01,510 --> 00:13:06,140 and he found that to be curious because Bill was small statured. 228 00:13:06,182 --> 00:13:07,475 He wasn’t one of these 229 00:13:07,516 --> 00:13:11,145 sort of larger construction-worker types. 230 00:13:11,771 --> 00:13:14,231 So right away, I’m prioritizing it. 231 00:13:14,273 --> 00:13:16,525 Does this fit what I know about the Gacy case? 232 00:13:17,276 --> 00:13:18,444 And it absolutely did. 233 00:13:18,486 --> 00:13:20,404 Here is a young man the right age. 234 00:13:20,446 --> 00:13:27,161 He was 17, 18 years old. Right time period, 1976, 1977. 235 00:13:27,203 --> 00:13:30,539 He’s in Chicago, and his friends say he works construction, 236 00:13:30,581 --> 00:13:32,458 so I decided to pursue that one right away, 237 00:13:32,500 --> 00:13:38,130 so I met with Laura, and I met with Laura’s other brother, 238 00:13:38,172 --> 00:13:39,298 who was still living, 239 00:13:39,340 --> 00:13:41,092 and I collected their DNA sample. 240 00:13:42,385 --> 00:13:48,516 And Murphy’s Law, victim number 19, 241 00:13:49,517 --> 00:13:51,268 no matter what we did, 242 00:13:51,310 --> 00:13:56,023 we could not get a good, a perfect DNA profile. 243 00:13:56,065 --> 00:13:59,443 We only had a partial profile. It wasn’t enough, 244 00:14:01,028 --> 00:14:03,489 but the one thing that I learned through investigation 245 00:14:03,531 --> 00:14:05,241 is that victim number 19, 246 00:14:06,367 --> 00:14:08,994 when you look at their dental analysis, 247 00:14:09,036 --> 00:14:14,208 the upper canine teeth, the eye teeth were missing. 248 00:14:15,543 --> 00:14:18,462 They weren’t missing as a result of postmortem tooth loss. 249 00:14:18,504 --> 00:14:22,299 In other words, they didn’t fall out of the decomposing body. 250 00:14:23,050 --> 00:14:26,053 They were removed by a dentist prior to the death, 251 00:14:26,554 --> 00:14:28,222 and the sockets had healed, 252 00:14:28,264 --> 00:14:31,392 so I knew if I could get a picture of Bill smiling 253 00:14:31,434 --> 00:14:34,186 and I could see that the upper row of teeth 254 00:14:34,228 --> 00:14:39,233 were missing the eye teeth, that would be a fantastic clue. 255 00:14:40,276 --> 00:14:42,278 So I asked her, "Do you have a picture of Bill smiling?" 256 00:14:42,319 --> 00:14:45,614 She says, "Not really." She goes, 257 00:14:45,656 --> 00:14:48,534 "My mother was so distraught after he went missing, 258 00:14:48,576 --> 00:14:51,203 and after years, she started getting rid of his stuff 259 00:14:51,245 --> 00:14:53,456 because it was too hard to look at." 260 00:14:53,497 --> 00:14:55,082 I go, "Well, do you have anything?" 261 00:14:55,124 --> 00:14:56,625 She goes, "Well, I have his wallet. I have an ID. 262 00:14:56,667 --> 00:14:58,461 I have this. I have" ... She goes, "Oh!" 263 00:14:58,502 --> 00:15:01,672 She goes, "I have his teeth." I got, "What do you mean?" 264 00:15:02,381 --> 00:15:05,551 She goes, "Well, he went to the dentist about a year 265 00:15:05,593 --> 00:15:07,470 before he went missing, 266 00:15:07,511 --> 00:15:09,722 and the dentist removed some teeth from his upper jaw." 267 00:15:09,764 --> 00:15:11,223 She goes, "I don’t know what it was. 268 00:15:11,265 --> 00:15:14,477 It was just two teeth, and he asked 269 00:15:14,518 --> 00:15:17,229 if he could have them and put them in a little jar." 270 00:15:17,271 --> 00:15:19,607 You could picture a teenage boy wanting to go gross 271 00:15:19,648 --> 00:15:22,151 out his friends with his extracted teeth, 272 00:15:23,736 --> 00:15:26,739 so she brought the teeth down, and they were eye teeth. 273 00:15:28,616 --> 00:15:30,576 So the mitochondrial DNA, 274 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,245 along with the case facts and circumstances 275 00:15:33,287 --> 00:15:34,789 and the absence of those teeth 276 00:15:34,830 --> 00:15:37,375 is what identified victim number 19. 277 00:15:37,792 --> 00:15:40,252 In Chicago’s own Gothic horror story, 278 00:15:40,294 --> 00:15:42,671 the first break in more than 30 years. 279 00:15:42,713 --> 00:15:47,301 Because of all of this work, victim number 19 280 00:15:47,343 --> 00:15:50,388 is never going to be known by a number anymore. 281 00:15:50,429 --> 00:15:52,807 Through DNA analysis, investigators say they now know 282 00:15:52,848 --> 00:15:55,684 that victim number 19 was William George Bundy. 283 00:15:56,310 --> 00:15:58,771 Bundy was buried as an unidentified Gacy victim 284 00:15:58,813 --> 00:16:01,691 here at Resurrection Cemetery in 1981. 285 00:16:01,732 --> 00:16:04,318 Laura O’Leary was Bundy’s sister. 286 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:10,116 I know that the sorrow will eventually go away, 287 00:16:10,157 --> 00:16:11,826 and I’ll have a place to visit him. 288 00:16:19,834 --> 00:16:22,586 When do you stop trying to find a missing person? 289 00:16:24,505 --> 00:16:26,132 When do you stop caring? 290 00:16:26,173 --> 00:16:31,554 What is the cutoff when law enforcement and society 291 00:16:32,221 --> 00:16:36,183 stop caring about an unidentified dead person, 292 00:16:36,892 --> 00:16:40,896 about a murder victim and about their families? 293 00:16:42,523 --> 00:16:46,861 And that’s really our overall philosophy on cold cases. 294 00:16:46,902 --> 00:16:48,446 We should never stop caring. 295 00:16:48,487 --> 00:16:51,532 We should never stop pursuing these cases. 296 00:17:01,792 --> 00:17:05,671 As I told you, when the FBI first came in to check on me, 297 00:17:05,713 --> 00:17:09,300 you said that you were kept out of the case back in ’78, 298 00:17:09,341 --> 00:17:11,010 and that was only because of egos. 299 00:17:11,052 --> 00:17:13,721 They did not want a professional coming in 300 00:17:13,763 --> 00:17:15,848 and doing an investigation, 301 00:17:15,890 --> 00:17:17,600 so they did their sloppy investigation 302 00:17:17,641 --> 00:17:19,310 and let it slide that way. 303 00:17:19,351 --> 00:17:21,896 You see, everybody was so excited about the large, 304 00:17:21,937 --> 00:17:24,398 massive case, and everybody was looking with their egos 305 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,275 as to how they could close this thing up, 306 00:17:26,317 --> 00:17:28,569 and you’re not the only one that really have hurt. 307 00:17:28,611 --> 00:17:30,946 You’ve had the victims’ family vent 308 00:17:30,988 --> 00:17:32,782 all their hostility towards me, 309 00:17:32,823 --> 00:17:34,658 and they think I’m the monster that killed their son 310 00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:37,745 or took out their son and stuff like that, when in fact, 311 00:17:37,787 --> 00:17:40,790 most of them don’t even have the remains of their own sons. 312 00:17:43,501 --> 00:17:46,003 This story, just like so many other things, 313 00:17:46,962 --> 00:17:51,759 it still has people coming up with conspiracy theories. 314 00:17:51,801 --> 00:17:56,639 It still comes up with people claiming that 315 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,725 the person identified has been misidentified, 316 00:17:59,767 --> 00:18:02,728 but some of it might be true, and we have to follow it up. 317 00:18:03,646 --> 00:18:07,483 Could there have been any misidentification? Sure. 318 00:18:08,025 --> 00:18:12,029 The means of identification have changed so much. 319 00:18:12,697 --> 00:18:16,492 Forensic dentistry is not today’s DNA. 320 00:18:17,034 --> 00:18:19,745 We didn’t have that back then, 321 00:18:19,787 --> 00:18:22,540 so if there is a misidentification, 322 00:18:23,541 --> 00:18:26,377 I would be glad to have it corrected. 323 00:18:30,673 --> 00:18:34,677 I began to be involved in the Gacy case in May of 2011. 324 00:18:35,553 --> 00:18:37,888 Mrs. Sherry Marino came to my office 325 00:18:37,930 --> 00:18:39,682 for the purpose of having me look 326 00:18:39,724 --> 00:18:42,101 into whether her son, Michael Marino, 327 00:18:42,143 --> 00:18:45,062 the youngest alleged victim of John Wayne Gacy, 328 00:18:45,104 --> 00:18:47,815 had been misidentified many years prior. 329 00:18:48,607 --> 00:18:51,068 Sherry Marino had, I guess you call it, 330 00:18:51,110 --> 00:18:55,573 a mother’s hunch that the body in her son’s grave was not him. 331 00:18:56,907 --> 00:18:59,076 The third time when I went to the cemetery, 332 00:18:59,744 --> 00:19:04,123 I put my hand on the grave, and it felt cold. 333 00:19:04,165 --> 00:19:07,585 It felt ... It didn’t feel right. 334 00:19:09,420 --> 00:19:12,798 Michael Marino was 14 years old when he went missing 335 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,802 on October 24th, 1976. 336 00:19:16,844 --> 00:19:20,639 Michael was going to go to a game room to meet his friend. 337 00:19:20,681 --> 00:19:23,768 Mrs. Marino recalls that he gave her a kiss on her cheek 338 00:19:23,809 --> 00:19:26,187 and said, "Mom, I’ll be back for the movie," 339 00:19:26,228 --> 00:19:29,607 and then that was the last time that she ever saw him. 340 00:19:29,648 --> 00:19:32,443 I just couldn’t believe it when he didn’t come home. 341 00:19:32,485 --> 00:19:36,197 She called the police to make a missing persons report. 342 00:19:37,490 --> 00:19:39,200 The police basically told her, 343 00:19:39,241 --> 00:19:42,787 as unfortunately they did many of the Gacy victims, 344 00:19:42,828 --> 00:19:44,622 that her son was likely a runaway. 345 00:19:45,498 --> 00:19:47,833 Mrs. Marino knew that Michael would not run away 346 00:19:47,875 --> 00:19:50,711 because he was a very dutiful son 347 00:19:50,753 --> 00:19:52,046 and loved his mother very much. 348 00:19:54,799 --> 00:19:57,051 She didn’t see any reason that he should’ve disappeared, 349 00:19:57,093 --> 00:19:59,970 so she continued to go to the Chicago Police Department, 350 00:20:00,012 --> 00:20:02,098 so much so that I guess they were sort of getting 351 00:20:02,139 --> 00:20:04,475 a little bit tired of her coming there all the time, 352 00:20:04,517 --> 00:20:07,061 and the youth officer that was responsible for the son 353 00:20:07,103 --> 00:20:08,604 was telling her, "Oh, Mrs. Marino, 354 00:20:08,646 --> 00:20:10,106 I saw your son on the street the other day. 355 00:20:10,147 --> 00:20:12,608 He ran away from me, and I can’t catch him. 356 00:20:12,650 --> 00:20:15,695 I’m not going to chase him. He’ll come home when he wants." 357 00:20:15,736 --> 00:20:17,488 So this went on for about 2 years 358 00:20:17,530 --> 00:20:21,033 where she continued to go to Chicago police inquiring about, 359 00:20:21,075 --> 00:20:22,785 "any progress on my son?" 360 00:20:23,828 --> 00:20:25,996 They repeatedly told Mrs. Marino 361 00:20:26,038 --> 00:20:27,998 that Michael was a runaway. 362 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,126 Because of the kind of treatment that she received 363 00:20:30,167 --> 00:20:32,962 from the Chicago Police Department at the time, 364 00:20:33,003 --> 00:20:35,798 she spent thousands of dollars of her own money 365 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:37,675 hiring investigators 366 00:20:37,717 --> 00:20:41,804 and actually putting herself at physical safety risk 367 00:20:41,846 --> 00:20:43,472 to try to find Michael. 368 00:20:43,514 --> 00:20:46,517 She went in drug houses and other very dangerous places 369 00:20:46,559 --> 00:20:49,520 to try to see if she could get any information on her son. 370 00:20:51,522 --> 00:20:55,735 In 1978, John Wayne Gacy was arrested. 371 00:20:56,861 --> 00:21:00,197 After the bodies started to be discovered in the crawl space, 372 00:21:00,865 --> 00:21:03,576 the Chicago Police Department made a general call 373 00:21:03,617 --> 00:21:07,705 to the public to provide dental records from their sons. 374 00:21:08,122 --> 00:21:10,624 They are telling them to send dental records and charts 375 00:21:10,666 --> 00:21:13,294 because that’s the only way the bodies can be identified. 376 00:21:13,335 --> 00:21:16,589 So Mrs. Marino did provide Michael’s dental records 377 00:21:16,630 --> 00:21:18,507 to the Chicago Police Department, 378 00:21:18,549 --> 00:21:21,761 and in early 1979, she was informed 379 00:21:21,802 --> 00:21:24,764 that her son was not a John Wayne Gacy victim, 380 00:21:26,098 --> 00:21:28,642 so she then continued to look for Michael 381 00:21:28,684 --> 00:21:30,811 because Michael was missing. 382 00:21:31,729 --> 00:21:33,147 Even at the time of the trial, 383 00:21:33,189 --> 00:21:35,900 her son was not identified as being a victim, 384 00:21:36,567 --> 00:21:38,527 and she went to them and said, "Is he a victim?" 385 00:21:38,569 --> 00:21:39,904 They said, "Mrs. Marino, 386 00:21:39,945 --> 00:21:42,698 we’re positive your son is not a victim." 387 00:21:43,574 --> 00:21:48,704 And then in March of 1980, Mrs. Marino had a fateful day 388 00:21:48,746 --> 00:21:51,582 in which two detectives knocked on her door, 389 00:21:51,624 --> 00:21:53,292 and they said, "Mrs. Marino, we’re very sorry. 390 00:21:53,334 --> 00:21:55,586 We made a huge mistake about telling you 391 00:21:55,628 --> 00:21:57,213 that your son was a runaway, 392 00:21:57,254 --> 00:22:01,217 and he has just been identified as a victim of John Wayne Gacy." 393 00:22:04,929 --> 00:22:09,016 They did take her to a police precinct 394 00:22:09,058 --> 00:22:10,726 to look at certain items 395 00:22:10,768 --> 00:22:13,813 that they had recovered from John Wayne Gacy, 396 00:22:13,854 --> 00:22:16,691 and Mrs. Marino said that she was not able to identify 397 00:22:16,732 --> 00:22:19,819 any items that would’ve matched Michael’s. 398 00:22:20,277 --> 00:22:25,032 So she went to see Dr. Stein at the morgue, and she inquired, 399 00:22:25,074 --> 00:22:27,868 "How is it that she was only identified now 400 00:22:27,910 --> 00:22:31,330 and not earlier when you’ve had all this information, 401 00:22:31,372 --> 00:22:33,249 the dental records for all this time?" 402 00:22:33,290 --> 00:22:36,752 And she said at first he was kind of cordial 403 00:22:36,794 --> 00:22:38,003 and nice with her, 404 00:22:38,045 --> 00:22:39,380 but it sort of ended on a bad note 405 00:22:39,422 --> 00:22:41,882 where he basically told her, "Mrs. Marino, 406 00:22:41,924 --> 00:22:44,885 just be thankful you got a body, and be done with it." 407 00:22:44,927 --> 00:22:47,930 Does that mean it wasn’t him? We don’t know. 408 00:22:48,639 --> 00:22:52,184 But she becomes convinced that he was misidentified. 409 00:22:56,313 --> 00:22:59,900 Mrs. Marino buried a body in a grave 410 00:22:59,942 --> 00:23:01,819 and has gone to that cemetery for, 411 00:23:02,278 --> 00:23:04,321 oh, we’re talking 30-some years now 412 00:23:04,989 --> 00:23:06,824 and wondered in her own heart 413 00:23:06,866 --> 00:23:09,410 as she stood there whether this body and this grave is her son’s 414 00:23:09,452 --> 00:23:11,662 because of the way everything went down. 415 00:23:16,333 --> 00:23:19,879 Now, later in 2011, Mrs. Marino came to me 416 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:21,964 as a result of seeing the news interviews 417 00:23:22,006 --> 00:23:25,134 about the 1998 dig on Miami Avenue, 418 00:23:25,926 --> 00:23:28,054 and she told me she had a great suspicion 419 00:23:29,346 --> 00:23:31,807 may not really be one of Gacy’s victims. 420 00:23:34,268 --> 00:23:36,020 I told her ... I says, "Mrs. Marino, 421 00:23:36,062 --> 00:23:39,023 I don’t know if your son is or isn’t a victim, 422 00:23:39,857 --> 00:23:42,693 but I can tell you how we can get the answers to that." 423 00:23:44,445 --> 00:23:47,907 Dorsch took her to the office of the medical examiner, 424 00:23:47,948 --> 00:23:49,408 Nancy Jones, 425 00:23:49,450 --> 00:23:54,914 and helped her file a request for the autopsy results 426 00:23:55,790 --> 00:24:00,378 of the person she’d been told was her son. 427 00:24:01,128 --> 00:24:03,881 A little while later, Dorsch called Jones 428 00:24:03,923 --> 00:24:07,093 and asked how that search was coming. 429 00:24:07,134 --> 00:24:09,220 Nancy Jones told Mr. Dorsch 430 00:24:09,261 --> 00:24:14,225 that they would not be able to get the autopsy reports, 431 00:24:14,266 --> 00:24:17,937 and so that was why he brought Mrs. Marino to my office 432 00:24:17,978 --> 00:24:20,940 because I do a lot of Freedom of Information Act requests. 433 00:24:20,981 --> 00:24:24,026 I didn’t know what we would find in the autopsy report. 434 00:24:24,485 --> 00:24:27,071 It could’ve simply been that I would be able to let her know 435 00:24:27,113 --> 00:24:28,406 that this was her son 436 00:24:28,447 --> 00:24:31,492 and that she would find some closure from that. 437 00:24:33,244 --> 00:24:35,121 Once I obtained the autopsy report, 438 00:24:35,162 --> 00:24:39,959 however, I found discrepancies. It particularly mentioned 439 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,253 that there was no antemortem tooth loss, 440 00:24:43,796 --> 00:24:47,758 basically that there was no tooth loss prior to death, 441 00:24:48,259 --> 00:24:49,844 and yet when I reviewed 442 00:24:49,885 --> 00:24:52,096 Michael’s personal dental charts, 443 00:24:53,222 --> 00:24:57,059 the tooth number 15 was in fact listed as being missing. 444 00:24:58,144 --> 00:25:00,896 In addition, there was a possible broken collarbone 445 00:25:00,938 --> 00:25:02,273 for the decedent. 446 00:25:02,314 --> 00:25:05,401 Mrs. Marino said that Michael did not ever have 447 00:25:05,443 --> 00:25:07,403 a broken collarbone to her knowledge, 448 00:25:08,029 --> 00:25:12,825 and thirdly, the autopsy report also mentioned the fact 449 00:25:12,867 --> 00:25:15,953 that there was possible Native American heritage. 450 00:25:15,995 --> 00:25:18,080 Again, I checked with Mrs. Marino. 451 00:25:18,122 --> 00:25:20,958 Michael was of pure Italian ancestry. 452 00:25:22,585 --> 00:25:25,504 Also, originally Mrs. Marino was told 453 00:25:25,546 --> 00:25:30,051 that Michael was not a Gacy victim in early 1979. 454 00:25:31,302 --> 00:25:35,806 Then in March of 1980, she was all of a sudden told 455 00:25:35,848 --> 00:25:38,309 that Michael was, in fact, a Gacy victim. 456 00:25:39,185 --> 00:25:42,396 Why did it take that long? What changed in the meantime? 457 00:25:42,438 --> 00:25:47,818 We actually have no idea. In September of 2011, 458 00:25:47,860 --> 00:25:51,822 I decided to file what’s called a petition for exhumation. 459 00:25:52,948 --> 00:25:56,869 The judge held a hearing in October of 2011 460 00:25:57,244 --> 00:25:59,330 and granted the petition. 461 00:26:01,165 --> 00:26:04,085 Shortly after this comes word through the media 462 00:26:04,126 --> 00:26:06,295 that Tom Dart, the sheriff of Cook County, 463 00:26:06,337 --> 00:26:10,424 has decided to reopen the Gacy case. 464 00:26:10,466 --> 00:26:12,218 No mention of Mrs. Marino. 465 00:26:12,259 --> 00:26:14,053 We believe with the type ... 466 00:26:14,095 --> 00:26:15,971 I thought it was a little bit suspect 467 00:26:16,013 --> 00:26:20,351 because it followed within less than a week of our announcement 468 00:26:20,393 --> 00:26:24,021 that we would be exhuming body number 14. 469 00:26:24,563 --> 00:26:26,816 Long prior, of course, Mrs. Marino, 470 00:26:26,857 --> 00:26:29,568 along with former detective Dorsch, 471 00:26:29,610 --> 00:26:33,322 had already visited Nancy Jones, the medical examiner, 472 00:26:33,364 --> 00:26:35,991 so ostensibly, the sheriff’s office would’ve been well aware 473 00:26:36,033 --> 00:26:38,869 of the fact that we were looking into this case. 474 00:26:38,911 --> 00:26:40,371 We’re sitting on things that we believe 475 00:26:40,413 --> 00:26:42,248 can help bring closure to that. 476 00:26:42,289 --> 00:26:45,084 To me, that would be somewhat immoral for me not to do that. 477 00:26:45,126 --> 00:26:47,336 My immediate thought was, this was a way for him 478 00:26:47,378 --> 00:26:51,090 to try to take away the steam from the exhumation 479 00:26:51,132 --> 00:26:55,052 and tried to give a positive spin to the sheriff’s office 480 00:26:55,094 --> 00:26:57,221 with respect to the John Wayne Gacy case. 481 00:27:01,016 --> 00:27:05,229 We conducted the exhumation in September of 2012 482 00:27:05,271 --> 00:27:08,399 at the Queen of Heaven Catholic cemetery in Hillside. 483 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:10,985 According to the judge’s order, 484 00:27:11,027 --> 00:27:13,529 the Cook County medical examiner’s office 485 00:27:13,571 --> 00:27:16,657 was able to be present to take DNA samples. 486 00:27:17,366 --> 00:27:19,368 However, no one from the sheriff’s department 487 00:27:19,410 --> 00:27:23,247 or the medical examiner attended the exhumation. 488 00:27:24,123 --> 00:27:28,419 The body was brought to an area at the cemetery, 489 00:27:29,295 --> 00:27:32,882 a warehouse where they were able to then lower the coffin. 490 00:27:32,923 --> 00:27:36,677 The pathologist arrived. The coffin was then opened. 491 00:27:36,719 --> 00:27:40,514 The first thing with as looking for was the jaws to see 492 00:27:40,556 --> 00:27:43,934 if this tooth was actually there or not, tooth number 15, 493 00:27:43,976 --> 00:27:45,436 that was so critical apparently 494 00:27:45,478 --> 00:27:48,397 to the original identification of Michael Marino 495 00:27:48,439 --> 00:27:53,569 as being body number 14 because the principal basis 496 00:27:53,611 --> 00:27:56,238 on which the exhumation petition granted 497 00:27:56,614 --> 00:27:58,324 was that the teeth did not match, 498 00:27:59,241 --> 00:28:01,327 so I was looking for the maxilla, 499 00:28:01,369 --> 00:28:04,538 which is the upper part of the jaw that goes along here, 500 00:28:04,580 --> 00:28:07,500 and the mandible, which is the lower part of the jaw. 501 00:28:09,543 --> 00:28:11,337 They were both completely missing. 502 00:28:18,260 --> 00:28:20,638 That’s another thing everybody misses from this, 503 00:28:21,639 --> 00:28:27,395 is that the victims’ families are not aware that ... 504 00:28:28,229 --> 00:28:29,689 In a lot of the cases, 505 00:28:29,730 --> 00:28:33,776 they don’t even have the remains of their own sons 506 00:28:34,527 --> 00:28:37,279 because Dr. Stein never turned over the whole body, 507 00:28:37,697 --> 00:28:42,618 and they took the heads off of each one of the victims, 508 00:28:42,660 --> 00:28:44,537 so when you turn over the remains 509 00:28:44,578 --> 00:28:47,581 to the loved one’s family, they don’t have the whole body. 510 00:28:50,501 --> 00:28:53,587 So basically, there was only half of the skull in the coffin. 511 00:28:55,589 --> 00:28:58,300 I was very concerned about what had happened with that, 512 00:28:58,342 --> 00:28:59,802 and, of course, we found out later 513 00:28:59,844 --> 00:29:02,221 that the medical examiner’s office 514 00:29:02,263 --> 00:29:05,725 took the jaws off all of the skulls 515 00:29:05,766 --> 00:29:07,518 for the Gacy victims at the time. 516 00:29:10,146 --> 00:29:11,772 The upper and lower jawbones 517 00:29:11,814 --> 00:29:13,691 from all of the unidentified victims 518 00:29:13,733 --> 00:29:16,318 were retained by the medical examiner’s office 519 00:29:17,278 --> 00:29:19,363 after the bodies had been buried 520 00:29:19,405 --> 00:29:22,575 because the main way to identify skeletal remains 521 00:29:22,616 --> 00:29:26,328 at that time was through dental identification, 522 00:29:26,829 --> 00:29:29,582 and they kept them at the ME’s office for years 523 00:29:29,623 --> 00:29:33,252 and years and years, hoping that a family member 524 00:29:33,294 --> 00:29:34,795 of a missing person would come in and say, 525 00:29:34,837 --> 00:29:36,630 "This is my missing loved one’s dental records. 526 00:29:36,672 --> 00:29:38,507 Could you compare them?" 527 00:29:38,549 --> 00:29:40,634 They were removed from the medical examiner’s office 528 00:29:40,676 --> 00:29:42,344 in 2009 529 00:29:42,386 --> 00:29:44,805 and then buried in the Homewood Memorial Gardens, 530 00:29:46,223 --> 00:29:48,225 but at the time of the exhumation, 531 00:29:48,267 --> 00:29:50,436 the pathologist took certain samples. 532 00:29:50,478 --> 00:29:53,397 Apparently there was part of the mandible 533 00:29:53,439 --> 00:29:58,110 that was still connected to the upper part of the skull 534 00:29:58,152 --> 00:30:01,447 that he was able to extract in order to do DNA. 535 00:30:02,239 --> 00:30:06,327 These samples were submitted to an independent laboratory, 536 00:30:06,369 --> 00:30:08,579 very well-respected, called Labcorp. 537 00:30:08,621 --> 00:30:14,335 We had received the report back on October 24th of 2012, 538 00:30:14,377 --> 00:30:18,464 exactly 36 years to the day that Michael Marino went missing. 539 00:30:19,340 --> 00:30:23,302 They were able to obtain a profile from the mandible. 540 00:30:23,344 --> 00:30:25,137 It said that there was not a match 541 00:30:25,179 --> 00:30:28,307 between Mrs. Marino and body number 14. 542 00:30:28,974 --> 00:30:32,478 It was no shock. I always knew it. 543 00:30:34,689 --> 00:30:37,608 It’s just a feeling that you get when you’re a mother. 544 00:30:37,650 --> 00:30:40,361 We notified the sheriff’s department 545 00:30:40,403 --> 00:30:45,574 so they would be aware of it, and then we went to the media. 546 00:30:46,450 --> 00:30:48,244 Mrs. Marino wanted the world to know 547 00:30:48,285 --> 00:30:50,246 that her son was not a victim 548 00:30:50,287 --> 00:30:52,540 and that she had been right all the way along. 549 00:30:57,294 --> 00:31:01,257 Mrs. Marino hired some attorneys to look at this. 550 00:31:01,841 --> 00:31:04,510 We let them know, anything we can do to help, 551 00:31:04,552 --> 00:31:07,888 but there was this somewhat adversarial relationship 552 00:31:07,930 --> 00:31:09,515 I never understood, 553 00:31:09,557 --> 00:31:12,435 and then once they did their own analysis, 554 00:31:12,476 --> 00:31:14,228 we kept asking them to send us it, 555 00:31:14,270 --> 00:31:15,855 and we had a hard time getting it, 556 00:31:15,896 --> 00:31:17,982 and then once we got it, I’ll never forget, 557 00:31:18,024 --> 00:31:19,900 it was all redacted. And it was like, 558 00:31:19,942 --> 00:31:22,611 "Guys, if there’s something here, we want" ... 559 00:31:23,446 --> 00:31:25,531 People make mistakes. If there was a mistake made, 560 00:31:25,573 --> 00:31:28,534 if you have something, we would love to run it out. 561 00:31:28,576 --> 00:31:31,370 Certain information was redacted from the information 562 00:31:31,412 --> 00:31:32,913 we gave to the sheriff’s department. 563 00:31:32,955 --> 00:31:36,000 This included personal information on Mrs. Marino 564 00:31:36,042 --> 00:31:39,503 as well as Mrs. Marino’s full DNA profile 565 00:31:39,545 --> 00:31:42,465 because Mrs. Marino did not trust the sheriff’s department, 566 00:31:42,506 --> 00:31:46,218 based on prior conduct she had had with the authorities. 567 00:31:46,260 --> 00:31:47,511 According to my viewpoint, 568 00:31:47,553 --> 00:31:48,929 there’s nothing in the redactions 569 00:31:48,971 --> 00:31:51,724 that we gave the sheriff that would inhibit them 570 00:31:51,766 --> 00:31:55,895 from determining whether this was a misidentification or not. 571 00:31:58,356 --> 00:32:02,860 Eventually, we had a meeting with Detective Moran 572 00:32:02,902 --> 00:32:04,528 from the sheriff’s department. 573 00:32:04,570 --> 00:32:07,907 We provided the notes from the exhumation. 574 00:32:07,948 --> 00:32:12,286 We provided certain photographs, as well as the DNA results, 575 00:32:12,828 --> 00:32:15,289 but Detective Moran was basically claiming 576 00:32:15,331 --> 00:32:18,542 that we could not have gotten our sample from the mandible 577 00:32:18,584 --> 00:32:20,753 because the jaws had already been removed. 578 00:32:20,795 --> 00:32:22,880 Because no one from the sheriff’s department 579 00:32:22,922 --> 00:32:28,344 or the medical examiner attended the exhumation of body 14, 580 00:32:28,386 --> 00:32:30,930 they would have no idea that the pathologist, 581 00:32:30,971 --> 00:32:34,600 in fact, did discover a portion of the mandible 582 00:32:34,642 --> 00:32:36,477 that was still attached to the skull, 583 00:32:36,519 --> 00:32:41,315 so they expressed their sorry to Mrs. Marino regarding her loss, 584 00:32:41,357 --> 00:32:43,609 but they refused to acknowledge 585 00:32:43,651 --> 00:32:45,986 the DNA results with respect to her son. 586 00:32:48,948 --> 00:32:53,494 We have said from day one that our heart 587 00:32:53,536 --> 00:32:56,622 bleeds for his mother. Our heart bleeds for her. 588 00:32:56,664 --> 00:32:59,375 We’ve never once said, "Listen, everything was perfect." 589 00:32:59,417 --> 00:33:02,044 No. There was no DNA. There was no nothing back then, 590 00:33:02,086 --> 00:33:03,546 so could mistakes have been made? 591 00:33:03,587 --> 00:33:05,089 Possibly, sure, 592 00:33:05,131 --> 00:33:07,842 and that’s no shame on this person, that person. 593 00:33:07,883 --> 00:33:09,844 The only shame would be is if you dig your heels in and say, 594 00:33:09,885 --> 00:33:13,097 "Listen, we’re not reviewing it, and we’re perfect." No. 595 00:33:14,014 --> 00:33:17,059 After the results came back, I made an offer. 596 00:33:17,101 --> 00:33:20,521 We would be happy to provide Mrs. Marino’s DNA, 597 00:33:20,563 --> 00:33:24,316 and we will have it retested with an independent lab 598 00:33:24,358 --> 00:33:26,569 with the bone samples that we had collected, 599 00:33:26,610 --> 00:33:29,447 and the sheriff’s office absolutely refused. 600 00:33:29,488 --> 00:33:30,698 The sheriff’s department said, 601 00:33:30,740 --> 00:33:32,908 "Let us do our own DNA test," 602 00:33:33,659 --> 00:33:36,620 but because Sherry Marino felt that authorities 603 00:33:36,662 --> 00:33:39,373 had never treated her well and somewhat bullied her, 604 00:33:39,790 --> 00:33:41,375 she didn’t trust them 605 00:33:41,417 --> 00:33:44,003 and would not allow them to do their own DNA test, 606 00:33:44,045 --> 00:33:46,422 so they were at a bit of a stalemate. 607 00:33:46,464 --> 00:33:49,800 Why on Earth would Sherry Marino and her lawyer 608 00:33:50,676 --> 00:33:55,056 and the scientists they hired conspire 609 00:33:56,891 --> 00:33:59,393 to produce a result that’s not legitimate? 610 00:34:00,144 --> 00:34:02,688 So the question really has to go back to the sheriff. 611 00:34:02,730 --> 00:34:06,400 Why wouldn’t he want to work with that result? 612 00:34:07,485 --> 00:34:09,111 When we were re-examining it ... 613 00:34:09,153 --> 00:34:10,863 because we really wanted to help this mother out. 614 00:34:10,905 --> 00:34:13,157 We wanted to make sure we didn’t miss anything here ... 615 00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:18,412 the odontologist, I think it is, who was there for the trial, 616 00:34:18,454 --> 00:34:22,958 who did all the dental work, he still helps us on cases. 617 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,169 He had the dental records from the body 618 00:34:25,211 --> 00:34:27,671 that had been recovered from the crawl space, 619 00:34:27,713 --> 00:34:29,799 and I remember him holding it up like this, 620 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,177 and they were the same, and he was like, "I don’t ... 621 00:34:34,053 --> 00:34:37,723 This is identical. I did not make a mistake here." 622 00:34:37,765 --> 00:34:41,852 We’re continuing to waste manpower and economics 623 00:34:41,894 --> 00:34:45,064 on an issue that is long gone. It is ... 624 00:34:45,106 --> 00:34:47,733 Unfortunately, these two things, 625 00:34:47,775 --> 00:34:50,695 the body and Marino are one and the same, 626 00:34:50,736 --> 00:34:55,116 and I feel bad for Mrs. Marino that we keep stirring this pot. 627 00:34:57,952 --> 00:35:00,913 In that time, the principal means of identification 628 00:35:00,955 --> 00:35:02,581 was dental records. 629 00:35:02,623 --> 00:35:04,959 That is entirely different now when we have DNA. 630 00:35:06,794 --> 00:35:09,213 I find it somewhat ironic that the sheriff’s office 631 00:35:09,255 --> 00:35:13,926 is utilizing the jaws and the teeth to conduct 632 00:35:13,968 --> 00:35:18,222 their forensic investigation into unidentified Gacy victims 633 00:35:18,806 --> 00:35:21,726 but refuses to acknowledge our DNA results. 634 00:35:23,185 --> 00:35:26,647 Our door will always be open. They could call anytime. 635 00:35:30,693 --> 00:35:32,862 We all have undying sympathy for Mrs. Marino. 636 00:35:32,903 --> 00:35:39,035 Until we have reports and expert notes and reports, 637 00:35:39,076 --> 00:35:40,870 there’s really not much we can do. 638 00:35:40,911 --> 00:35:44,749 Sherry Marino has hard evidence 639 00:35:45,708 --> 00:35:47,543 that her son was misidentified. 640 00:35:47,585 --> 00:35:50,838 That’s an unidentified victim, and for some reason, 641 00:35:51,839 --> 00:35:53,174 the sheriff isn’t interested 642 00:35:53,215 --> 00:35:59,513 in adding those remains to his list. 643 00:35:59,555 --> 00:36:01,474 This is completely inconsistent, 644 00:36:01,515 --> 00:36:03,100 and I think it simply demonstrates 645 00:36:03,142 --> 00:36:06,020 that they want to control the narrative of the Gacy case 646 00:36:06,062 --> 00:36:09,523 and make sure that there are no errors that become public. 647 00:36:10,274 --> 00:36:12,860 If there was one misidentification, 648 00:36:12,902 --> 00:36:15,780 there could be multiple misidentifications, 649 00:36:15,821 --> 00:36:18,824 and it could open up an entire forensic can of worms 650 00:36:18,866 --> 00:36:20,618 for the entire Gacy case. 651 00:36:20,659 --> 00:36:23,079 So the situation is where it is. 652 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,207 She believes the DNA tests show that that is not her son. 653 00:36:26,916 --> 00:36:30,586 I believe he’s out there somewhere. I don’t know where. 654 00:36:30,628 --> 00:36:33,130 And the sheriff department’s, I think, 655 00:36:33,172 --> 00:36:36,675 feeling is that the DNA tests are faulty, 656 00:36:36,717 --> 00:36:38,219 and that is Michael Marino. 657 00:36:38,844 --> 00:36:41,514 My interest in the case is not the identified victims. 658 00:36:41,555 --> 00:36:43,057 It’s the unidentified victims, 659 00:36:43,099 --> 00:36:45,768 and Michael Marino was one of the identified victims. 660 00:36:57,988 --> 00:37:00,282 I think there are a lot of people out there 661 00:37:00,324 --> 00:37:02,993 that felt like there was more to this story, 662 00:37:03,452 --> 00:37:06,247 that there were these unanswered questions, 663 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:09,041 and I’m sure there are a lot of people out there 664 00:37:09,083 --> 00:37:10,835 that wanted to put this story to rest 665 00:37:10,876 --> 00:37:13,713 and didn’t want to hear any more about John Wayne Gacy. 666 00:37:16,716 --> 00:37:18,217 But I think for authorities, 667 00:37:18,843 --> 00:37:20,678 a lot of careers were made on that case, 668 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:22,763 and so maybe that’s part of the reason 669 00:37:22,805 --> 00:37:26,726 why they don’t want specific answers to these questions. 670 00:37:28,018 --> 00:37:30,354 To me, the biggest questions are, 671 00:37:31,022 --> 00:37:34,191 are there any bodies buried beneath Miami and Elston, 672 00:37:34,817 --> 00:37:40,906 and if so, who are these people? So in 1998, 673 00:37:40,948 --> 00:37:45,119 the Chicago Police Department digs at Miami and Elston. 674 00:37:45,161 --> 00:37:46,996 Weeks of anticipation in Chicago 675 00:37:47,038 --> 00:37:49,832 came to a head on a day where technicians paced off 676 00:37:49,874 --> 00:37:51,792 the yard and driveway of the home 677 00:37:51,834 --> 00:37:53,836 where John Gacy’s mother once lived. 678 00:37:54,462 --> 00:37:57,923 The radar company finds 17 locations to dig, 679 00:37:58,466 --> 00:38:02,178 but the Chicago Police Department only dug two holes. 680 00:38:02,219 --> 00:38:03,846 The digging proceeded in the two 681 00:38:03,888 --> 00:38:05,890 indicated sites throughout the day, 682 00:38:05,931 --> 00:38:08,267 but by nightfall, the operation was halted. 683 00:38:08,309 --> 00:38:11,812 We found a glass marble, a flattened saucepan, 684 00:38:11,854 --> 00:38:13,439 a 2 1/2 length of wire. 685 00:38:14,065 --> 00:38:15,483 The guy from the radar company said 686 00:38:15,524 --> 00:38:17,777 that was not a good investigation. 687 00:38:17,818 --> 00:38:20,488 It doesn’t make any sense to give 17 targets 688 00:38:20,529 --> 00:38:23,282 and only dig two, and Terry Sullivan, 689 00:38:23,324 --> 00:38:25,159 again, the former prosecutor in this case, 690 00:38:25,201 --> 00:38:28,746 said he doesn’t understand why there was so much secrecy. 691 00:38:28,788 --> 00:38:32,041 I was at that so-called dig on the northwest side, 692 00:38:32,416 --> 00:38:35,211 and from everything that I could see, 693 00:38:35,252 --> 00:38:36,962 the police department 694 00:38:37,004 --> 00:38:40,341 really didn’t want anything more to do with it, 695 00:38:40,383 --> 00:38:43,260 and why it was done in such secrecy, even to me, 696 00:38:44,095 --> 00:38:46,514 that was something that I wondered about back then. 697 00:38:53,062 --> 00:38:55,231 Today was the first scheduled that I’ve had 698 00:38:55,272 --> 00:38:58,067 with Sheriff Dart’s people 699 00:38:58,109 --> 00:38:59,985 regarding the Gacy investigation. 700 00:39:00,486 --> 00:39:02,279 This site in ’98 701 00:39:02,321 --> 00:39:05,157 was being investigated by Chicago Police Department, 702 00:39:05,199 --> 00:39:06,826 but they didn’t do it right. 703 00:39:06,867 --> 00:39:09,870 Now suddenly, Sheriff Dart is involved in this, 704 00:39:09,912 --> 00:39:12,456 and he was certainly not involved at the time, 705 00:39:12,498 --> 00:39:14,166 so he bore no responsibility 706 00:39:14,208 --> 00:39:16,544 for how this investigation was handled. 707 00:39:17,128 --> 00:39:19,171 But now he is in charge, 708 00:39:19,213 --> 00:39:21,382 so I put it all on the table, basically. 709 00:39:22,216 --> 00:39:25,010 I told him what I had, and I told him, 710 00:39:25,052 --> 00:39:27,430 "I think you’d be making a very big mistake 711 00:39:27,471 --> 00:39:29,557 if you think I’m walking away from this." 712 00:39:30,391 --> 00:39:35,271 My intention was always to get the truth to the Miami location. 713 00:39:35,312 --> 00:39:38,357 I’m still very skeptical if it’s going to be done correctly, 714 00:39:38,941 --> 00:39:42,278 so I has to trust someone, so I’m going to give them 715 00:39:42,319 --> 00:39:44,447 a little bit of time to see where it goes. 716 00:39:46,574 --> 00:39:50,286 Toward the end of Gacy’s killing spree, 717 00:39:50,327 --> 00:39:52,872 he had literally run out of space. 718 00:39:54,290 --> 00:39:56,125 Could he then have used that place? 719 00:39:57,501 --> 00:40:00,296 Most everything else we’d had was at his house, 720 00:40:00,337 --> 00:40:02,006 garage or the Des Plaines River. 721 00:40:02,506 --> 00:40:06,594 But based on his connection to the property, 722 00:40:06,635 --> 00:40:08,512 it was definitely worth running out. 723 00:40:11,932 --> 00:40:13,309 What we thought we could find 724 00:40:13,350 --> 00:40:16,353 there would maybe be remains of another victim. 725 00:40:17,521 --> 00:40:19,357 Cook County state’s attorney has agreed 726 00:40:19,398 --> 00:40:21,442 to let the sheriff’s office search an apartment building 727 00:40:21,484 --> 00:40:24,362 where serial killer John Gacy worked as a janitor, 728 00:40:24,403 --> 00:40:27,073 but any additional digging at that site is still weeks 729 00:40:27,114 --> 00:40:28,866 or even months away. 730 00:40:29,492 --> 00:40:34,163 Dart announces in January of 2013 731 00:40:34,205 --> 00:40:35,414 that he got a search warrant 732 00:40:35,456 --> 00:40:38,250 for the property of Miami and Elston. 733 00:40:39,627 --> 00:40:43,631 Nothing is happening, so Bill and I are chugging along, 734 00:40:43,672 --> 00:40:45,174 following our various leads, 735 00:40:45,216 --> 00:40:47,593 interviewing various players in the story. 736 00:40:50,221 --> 00:40:54,266 At the end of March of 2013, we cooked up an idea 737 00:40:55,059 --> 00:41:02,024 to have an open letter from Bill Dorsch posted on my blog, 738 00:41:02,066 --> 00:41:05,945 saying, "There are indications that the local authorities 739 00:41:05,986 --> 00:41:07,530 may be less sincere 740 00:41:07,571 --> 00:41:12,034 than you might think about their determination to find out 741 00:41:12,076 --> 00:41:14,412 if there were human remains at Miami and Elston. 742 00:41:15,413 --> 00:41:19,250 I’m appealing to my fellow officers to keep an eye out 743 00:41:20,251 --> 00:41:24,338 and let me know if it looks like something’s happening there." 744 00:41:27,466 --> 00:41:29,385 I posted that letter, 745 00:41:29,427 --> 00:41:33,389 and the next morning, Michael Sneed, 746 00:41:33,431 --> 00:41:36,892 a very well-known columnist for the "Chicago Sun-Times," 747 00:41:36,934 --> 00:41:41,397 had an item in her column saying that Tom Dart 748 00:41:41,439 --> 00:41:46,068 decided to do an investigation at Miami and Elston, 749 00:41:46,110 --> 00:41:49,280 and it turned out that the investigation had happened 750 00:41:49,739 --> 00:41:51,449 6 or 7 days earlier. 751 00:41:52,116 --> 00:41:54,618 Wait a minute. What? Why now? Why all of a sudden? 752 00:41:54,660 --> 00:41:57,329 They’re in. They’re out. "We didn’t find anything." 753 00:41:58,664 --> 00:42:02,251 I remember waking up and finding out about it and being pissed 754 00:42:02,293 --> 00:42:04,045 because I didn’t know about it. 755 00:42:04,754 --> 00:42:06,547 There were no journalists out there. 756 00:42:06,589 --> 00:42:10,176 When this whole story has been under a cloud of suspicion, 757 00:42:10,634 --> 00:42:14,472 a cloud of suspicion that somewhat involves authorities, 758 00:42:14,513 --> 00:42:17,266 you would’ve thought that maybe they would’ve wanted 759 00:42:17,725 --> 00:42:20,936 some independent viewers there 760 00:42:20,978 --> 00:42:24,648 to give it more credibility than what it has today, 761 00:42:25,274 --> 00:42:27,401 and yet, they just went out one night, 762 00:42:27,443 --> 00:42:29,153 and nobody knew about it. 763 00:42:30,613 --> 00:42:33,115 I think our biggest concern was that we wanted 764 00:42:33,157 --> 00:42:34,700 to run this out 765 00:42:35,534 --> 00:42:38,621 but do it in the least invasive way as possible. 766 00:42:38,662 --> 00:42:40,247 We tried to be very sensitive, 767 00:42:40,289 --> 00:42:42,583 and I think we were, to the property owners. 768 00:42:43,334 --> 00:42:45,044 We were trying to be very sensitive 769 00:42:45,086 --> 00:42:46,587 to the notoriety behind this 770 00:42:46,629 --> 00:42:49,632 because we knew if we did this thing with publicity, 771 00:42:49,673 --> 00:42:55,054 it was going to have helicopters above us, crowds around us. 772 00:42:55,096 --> 00:42:59,225 So we did this as somewhat of a, I don’t know, 773 00:42:59,266 --> 00:43:02,103 well-coordinated strike, for lack of a better word. 774 00:43:04,397 --> 00:43:10,528 We used a fantastic group of cadaver dogs from England, 775 00:43:12,363 --> 00:43:14,115 ground-penetrating radar, 776 00:43:14,156 --> 00:43:16,450 thermal imaging, all of the modern ... 777 00:43:17,368 --> 00:43:19,495 We call these remote-sensing equipment. 778 00:43:19,537 --> 00:43:24,583 We did ground-penetrating radar through the whole area, 779 00:43:24,625 --> 00:43:28,671 and so anywhere we found something, we went for it, 780 00:43:28,713 --> 00:43:32,174 and only once, we found some anomalies 781 00:43:32,216 --> 00:43:35,428 that were where landscaping work would’ve been done 782 00:43:35,469 --> 00:43:37,346 or something like that that would’ve fit the pattern, 783 00:43:37,388 --> 00:43:42,268 but nothing panned out. We didn’t come up with anything. 784 00:43:43,102 --> 00:43:44,437 After the end of the search, 785 00:43:44,478 --> 00:43:46,522 there was absolutely no evidence or information 786 00:43:46,564 --> 00:43:48,774 that there was anybody buried there. 787 00:43:52,403 --> 00:43:54,739 They claimed that they had some new radar equipment, 788 00:43:54,780 --> 00:43:56,198 et cetera, et cetera, 789 00:43:56,240 --> 00:43:57,533 but I went out and talked to people, 790 00:43:57,575 --> 00:43:59,326 and they said, "Look, the only way 791 00:43:59,368 --> 00:44:01,829 to know for sure is to dig up the whole yard, 792 00:44:02,580 --> 00:44:04,540 to dig up all the spots that you find." 793 00:44:04,582 --> 00:44:07,585 That’s the only way you’re ever going to have the answers. 794 00:44:09,253 --> 00:44:11,088 I think there was a concern for the property owner 795 00:44:11,130 --> 00:44:12,757 and so forth, but come on. 796 00:44:12,798 --> 00:44:16,677 You’re talking about tearing up a small yard and a driveway. 797 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:20,556 How much can it cost to repave a driveway and resod a small yard? 798 00:44:21,724 --> 00:44:25,352 It’s a small price to pay to maybe get some answers 799 00:44:25,394 --> 00:44:27,813 one way or another for a lot of families out there 800 00:44:27,855 --> 00:44:30,775 who are living with a lot of questions. 801 00:44:32,443 --> 00:44:35,529 I believe that they have gone as far as they can. 802 00:44:35,571 --> 00:44:38,699 You just can’t go and dig up somebody’s property 803 00:44:38,741 --> 00:44:40,284 just because there’s a rumor 804 00:44:40,326 --> 00:44:43,120 that there may be something there, 805 00:44:44,288 --> 00:44:47,291 but I don’t think there’s anything out there right now 806 00:44:47,333 --> 00:44:52,254 that I know of that would lead to any further investigations, 807 00:44:52,296 --> 00:44:57,676 despite the fact that I firmly believe there are other victims. 808 00:45:08,646 --> 00:45:11,649 Do you actually feel that my investigation, 809 00:45:11,691 --> 00:45:14,360 that my case has been thoroughly investigated? 810 00:45:14,402 --> 00:45:15,569 I think during a case like this, 811 00:45:15,611 --> 00:45:17,780 and I find this in many major cases, 812 00:45:17,822 --> 00:45:20,866 that things are, at the time of the case, 813 00:45:20,908 --> 00:45:23,536 are done rather hastily 814 00:45:23,577 --> 00:45:25,454 because of the fact that there’s pressure on everybody. 815 00:45:25,496 --> 00:45:26,706 Yeah, but that’s a political answer. 816 00:45:26,747 --> 00:45:28,332 Yeah. 817 00:45:28,374 --> 00:45:29,500 I don’t want a political answer from you. 818 00:45:29,542 --> 00:45:31,961 Yeah. I want a basic answer. 819 00:45:32,002 --> 00:45:33,671 Do you actually think that the investigation 820 00:45:33,713 --> 00:45:35,548 of my case has been done right? 821 00:45:35,589 --> 00:45:38,509 I believe in your case that there needs to be ... 822 00:45:38,551 --> 00:45:41,470 that there should’ve been more focus on others, 823 00:45:41,512 --> 00:45:42,930 that there should’ve been others checked out 824 00:45:42,972 --> 00:45:44,724 a little more thoroughly. 825 00:45:44,765 --> 00:45:46,809 That’s the belief I’ve developed over these years. 826 00:45:49,311 --> 00:45:52,440 How many coincidences can you tolerate? 827 00:45:54,650 --> 00:45:56,986 You have Gacy and his political connections, 828 00:45:57,611 --> 00:46:01,365 a connection between Gacy and a sex-trafficking ring 829 00:46:01,407 --> 00:46:05,703 that’s making pornography, the suggestion of accomplices, 830 00:46:06,328 --> 00:46:07,747 more potential victims, 831 00:46:07,788 --> 00:46:09,749 the property at Miami and Elston. 832 00:46:09,790 --> 00:46:11,959 You just have to feel like there’s a thread 833 00:46:12,001 --> 00:46:13,544 that connects them all, 834 00:46:13,586 --> 00:46:15,629 that there’s something being hidden. 835 00:46:24,013 --> 00:46:27,808 It would be such an injustice if there are people 836 00:46:28,517 --> 00:46:31,854 that are still walking the Earth today 837 00:46:31,896 --> 00:46:33,647 that were part of any of it 838 00:46:34,857 --> 00:46:38,819 or any others that people don’t even know about. 839 00:46:39,528 --> 00:46:42,323 It would be very sad, very sad thing. 840 00:46:54,877 --> 00:46:58,923 Michael Rossi has stayed silent for four decades. 841 00:46:59,673 --> 00:47:02,635 Rossi has never been charged with anything in the Gacy case, 842 00:47:02,676 --> 00:47:04,804 so I’m not accusing him of anything, 843 00:47:04,845 --> 00:47:07,765 but I think he may have some answers. 844 00:47:09,016 --> 00:47:14,563 I’m hoping that one day, he will wake up and for whatever reason, 845 00:47:14,605 --> 00:47:19,944 have a change of heart and tell what he knows, 846 00:47:21,612 --> 00:47:25,658 even if it’s nothing. It would be good to hear 847 00:47:25,700 --> 00:47:28,786 from someone who was in that circle at that time. 848 00:47:33,666 --> 00:47:35,960 Today, we are announcing that we have identified 849 00:47:36,001 --> 00:47:39,672 one more of the original eight that were unidentified, 850 00:47:39,714 --> 00:47:41,507 Jimmy Haakenson. 851 00:47:41,549 --> 00:47:43,843 Jimmy was 16 years old at the time 852 00:47:43,884 --> 00:47:45,761 when he was murdered by John Gacy. 853 00:47:50,599 --> 00:47:52,143 More leads continue to come in. 854 00:47:52,893 --> 00:47:55,104 There’s family members from all over the country 855 00:47:55,146 --> 00:47:57,898 that are still looking for their missing loved ones, 856 00:47:57,940 --> 00:47:59,817 and then there’s new technologies that come to play, 857 00:47:59,859 --> 00:48:01,569 like forensic genealogy. 858 00:48:02,445 --> 00:48:04,030 Hopefully, we’ll solve other people’s cases like 859 00:48:04,071 --> 00:48:05,781 we already have done. 860 00:48:12,830 --> 00:48:15,499 I don’t think she knows what happened to him. 861 00:48:16,167 --> 00:48:19,045 She still just loves him, and she’s looking for him, 862 00:48:19,086 --> 00:48:20,755 and she wants to find him. 863 00:48:21,589 --> 00:48:23,382 Is it at all possible that there might be 864 00:48:23,424 --> 00:48:24,717 other victims above 865 00:48:24,759 --> 00:48:26,761 and beyond the 33 in these other states? 866 00:48:30,598 --> 00:48:32,850 No. You keep wanting to go back to that shit, 867 00:48:32,892 --> 00:48:34,560 and I welcome you 868 00:48:34,602 --> 00:48:36,562 to go check out every state that I’ve ever been in. 869 00:48:36,604 --> 00:48:43,569 Okay. I find it inescapable 870 00:48:43,611 --> 00:48:46,113 that Gacy did not do this in other states. 871 00:48:47,990 --> 00:48:50,743 The guy traveled all the time all over the place. 872 00:48:50,785 --> 00:48:52,411 You’re trying to tell me for 2 seconds 873 00:48:52,453 --> 00:48:55,539 that that person would not be more emboldened 874 00:48:55,581 --> 00:48:57,625 when he went to a different jurisdiction? 875 00:49:02,838 --> 00:49:06,550 People don’t often think about it this way, 876 00:49:06,592 --> 00:49:11,680 but being in any way an aspect of violent crime 877 00:49:12,473 --> 00:49:14,600 or a whole boxful of violent crimes, 878 00:49:14,642 --> 00:49:16,102 in John’s case, 879 00:49:16,143 --> 00:49:19,021 is a lot like dropping a rock in the middle of a pond 880 00:49:19,814 --> 00:49:21,649 because the ripples are going to go out 881 00:49:21,691 --> 00:49:26,946 until they can’t go any further, and everything is affected. 882 00:49:40,584 --> 00:49:43,879 Don Voorhees, he called me one day out of the blue, 883 00:49:43,921 --> 00:49:47,883 and he said, "My life has been ruined. 884 00:49:47,925 --> 00:49:49,635 I’ve lost my job." He says, 885 00:49:49,677 --> 00:49:54,056 "I lost my wife and family. I can’t eat or sleep." 886 00:49:54,098 --> 00:49:56,016 I didn’t know why he was calling me. 887 00:49:57,143 --> 00:49:58,853 We weren’t close. 888 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,773 I think I urged him to get some professional help, 889 00:50:03,649 --> 00:50:06,819 but the next thing I heard was that he had committed suicide. 890 00:50:08,571 --> 00:50:11,699 I was impressed with how profound 891 00:50:12,533 --> 00:50:17,246 and how deep the injury is that is caused to these victims. 892 00:50:23,711 --> 00:50:29,091 You can’t bury history. It is something that happened, 893 00:50:29,884 --> 00:50:32,178 and it will be talked about for a long time, 894 00:50:32,219 --> 00:50:34,263 and you just deal with it, 895 00:50:34,305 --> 00:50:39,685 and you have to learn from what happened and make things better. 896 00:50:42,980 --> 00:50:45,983 And I think good things can come out of bad things. 897 00:50:52,573 --> 00:50:55,034 The one thing that has always, 898 00:50:55,076 --> 00:50:57,161 always been foremost in my mind 899 00:50:57,953 --> 00:51:01,999 is how many lives this one single guy, 900 00:51:02,041 --> 00:51:03,751 John Wayne Gacy, affected. 901 00:51:05,961 --> 00:51:07,713 And that’s always stayed with me. 902 00:51:10,758 --> 00:51:12,259 And I guess it always will. 903 00:51:17,223 --> 00:51:20,643 It never ends. The case just never ends. 904 00:51:21,060 --> 00:51:24,021 People come up to me to this day and will say, 905 00:51:24,063 --> 00:51:28,567 "You represented John Gacy. How could you do that?" 906 00:51:28,609 --> 00:51:30,736 And then on the other hand, they turn and they say, 907 00:51:30,778 --> 00:51:32,279 "But tell me all about it," 908 00:51:32,988 --> 00:51:35,950 because as much as they are disgusted by him, 909 00:51:35,991 --> 00:51:38,077 they want to know what he was like, 910 00:51:38,119 --> 00:51:39,328 and there will always 911 00:51:39,370 --> 00:51:42,373 be a fascination with John Gacy, always. 912 00:51:46,252 --> 00:51:49,296 Yeah. I just think that we’re kind of wrapping it up here. 913 00:51:50,089 --> 00:51:51,841 I think we accomplished something today. 914 00:51:51,882 --> 00:51:54,927 Certainly, we put something down on tape that has not been said. 915 00:51:55,678 --> 00:51:58,305 My feeling as a career law-enforcement officer is that 916 00:51:59,890 --> 00:52:02,685 if John Wayne Gacy is guilty, then he should be punished. 917 00:52:02,727 --> 00:52:05,855 If John Wayne Gacy has others involved, 918 00:52:05,896 --> 00:52:07,940 then they should be brought in, and they should be punished. 919 00:52:07,982 --> 00:52:11,861 Basically, I believe in total investigation and total justice, 920 00:52:11,902 --> 00:52:14,739 and that’s really what I’ve been looking for all along.