Previously he'd blocked me on WhatsApp, he'd blocked me on
Instagram. They're both now available.
In my mind, that's telling me that's because he's ready to talk.
But who knows?
This programme contains some strong language
LINE RINGING
Hello, Gurvin. It's Mobeen calling. How are you?
A few people have mentioned, and I kind of get the impression
that you're...you're...
..you might be ready to talk to me.
There's allegations,
so I want you to engage with those.
And, you know, you're capable of engaging with those.
I'm sure you are. So... So that's what I'd...
..I'd like you to do.
Yeah.
And just...I just want to reiterate, Gurvin, that it's not...
I can't make this clear enough.
It is not about making anyone look good or bad.
It's just about the truth of the situation.
Yeah?
You know, around Sunday, Monday. OK. So, yes, if you can make Tuesday
work, if you can give us an hour of your time,
that would be brilliant.
Take care. Thank you.
ENGINE REVS Are you serious?
Everyone was just excited. He's making money.
We're going to make money.
She lost 9,000.
Did you lose all of your nine...? Absolutely, 100%.
Who were you working with?
What happened with the money?
We are rolling.
Yeah, you know that and you've been told that. Mm-hm.
I put my phone on airplane mode... Yeah, if you could.
Are you happy to proceed? Yeah. Wicked.
Before we get started, there's a couple of things
that I need to let you know.
Firstly, this is Gurvin's chance to tell his version of the story
in which he's going to mention other people,
businesses and organisations,
and some of those people, for whatever reason, have chosen not
to engage with me.
That means it's not been possible to verify everything he claims.
Secondly, from time to time, I'll pause and provide
some quick explanation.
This stuff is complicated,
so I'll try to help wherever I can.
And that's it. Let's run the tape.
The first time I came across you was on the video
of you handing out cash... Yeah. ..in Plymouth town centre.
Of course, that video was picked up by lots of people. Yeah.
Tell me what happened that day. How much cash did you hand out?
And the key thing is, what were you trying to achieve?
Yeah. OK, cool. So I think it was £1,000 or £2,000.
I can't remember the exact figures, but it's whatever the newspapers
wrote it was,
and it was more a thing to become an influencer.
I knew that me giving away £1,000 or £2,000 on Instagram
wouldn't really create that much attention,
whereas if I did it in the public's eye, it would create a decent amount
of attention and was in fact a marketing tool.
So it was quite a business move, I'd say.
So I want you to just take a look at this.
This was an article back in 2019,
May 2nd this came out.
Can you read that headline for me? Yeah.
"Plymouth student makes a fortune trading in foreign currencies."
Were you making a fortune trading in foreign currencies?
I wouldn't say a fortune. I'd say a couple of grand.
Whatever they interpret a fortune as
is what they interpret a fortune as.
But I'd made at least a couple of thousand pounds by that time
through foreign exchange.
So, in the article, you're quoted as saying you can spend one or two
hours a day forex trading and still make money.
"I'm driving a 15-grand Audi and want to upgrade to a 30-grand
"Maserati, and I'm hoping to buy my single mother
"a house in London."
That sounds like you're doing really well out of forex.
I was affiliate marketing for a company
which sold forex courses.
OK, so affiliate marketing is like advertising.
Companies pay influencers to tell you just how great they are.
So were you making more of the money by affiliate marketing... Yeah.
..than the trading? Yes, I was.
Tell me about the first time you ever heard
from Infinox, or about Infinox,
and talk me through the kind of...
..who reached out to you and what happened. Yeah.
It was a direct message, actually, from Mirko Notturno.
At the time he claimed he worked for Infinox -
I later found out he didn't -
and he messaged me, telling me,
"Look, you may be interested in a service that we want to offer,
"and why don't you come and meet us? We're a massive company in
"central London, and come over to our office in central London
"and we'll take it from there." And when you went in there,
what did you think you were going in there for?
So a meeting to go over the services that they offered and how I could
bring them clients in exchange for a commission.
So they wanted you to do some marketing? Affiliate marketing.
Affiliate marketing? Yes. How much were they going to pay you?
There was no set fee that they agreed with me.
The deal was, "We'll pay you as you bring in clients,"
and they were talking...
The figures they actually said to me were
hundreds of thousands of pounds. And I thought, "Wow!"
I'm 19 here. I'm 19, remember, I'm 19,
and I've walked into this office in central London,
with security everywhere,
they've got desks, like, to me at the time, it looked like hundreds of
desks but it was probably, like,
20, 30 desks, where they call it their trading base,
and had a trading room, had loads of people looking so professional
on their computers, doing trades, they're showing me all of this.
The office was massive, and I'm there at the age of 19, thinking,
"Wow!" And they're saying to me, "Congratulations, you're, like,
"doing so well for yourself."
And they're really bigging me up, if that makes sense.
They're telling me, "You've got such an amazing opportunity here.
"We never thought we'd be offering this opportunity to someone
"of your age. You should be so proud of yourself, your family should be
"so proud of you."
And, yeah, at that point I had a meeting in that office,
in their office, with Tristan Jones and another guy called Bogdan.
Bogdan, yeah. And Mirko was there, as well. So there was three of them.
Do you know what their roles were? Bogdan was higher up than Tristan.
Tristan worked at Infinox, and then eventually I found out
that Mirko was just someone that Tristan had got to go
and get influencers.
During my investigation, I found out there are two Infinoxes -
Infinox UK, which is based in London,
and Infinox Bahamas, which isn't.
Tristan and Bogdan worked out of the Infinox London office,
but for Infinox Bahamas.
Gurvin says he saw Infinox as one big business,
but he was in fact working with Infinox Bahamas.
And at that meeting in the Infinox office, what did they ask you to do?
They told me to...
First he said, "Try out our products."
So they put me on a demo trading account where they copy the trades
on to my thing and I could see that money was being made.
And then they said, "Look, offer this to some of your clients,
"offer it on social media," and I did that to a small amount of people
first, "see how they do and we'll give you a commission."
And... What was that commission?
I think it was £100 or £200 for each person.
So tell me, at the time, of course, you're a biomed student. Mm-hm.
Did you have any qualifications in finance?
No. I did a forex course, though.
Was that course kind of registered to anyone
or was it a kind of, you just...? It was just...
It was an online course. It was an online course?
Online course. OK. Yeah.
So today, do you have any qualifications in finance?
No, I do not.
So, considering you didn't at the time have any qualifications
in finance - of course you'd done an online course but you didn't have
any qualifications, and today you don't have any
qualifications in finance... Yeah.
..why would someone in that world reach out to you?
Because they saw that I was showing on social media that I was making
money for the foreign exchange market,
and that's why Mirko messaged me. Yeah.
Tell me why you set up the GS3 Trades website.
I didn't.
Each influencer had a client base and they were given a name,
and we were told a website had to be made for the referrals
to come in through.
And I remember actually making that website
with Tristan Jones in the Infinox office myself.
So you did make it, didn't you? Yeah... That's what I'm saying.
So you did make the website? Yeah, we were there.
We were making a website.
So, on that website, of course, here it says...
Just read that for me.
The regulated bit.
"We use an FCA and Bahamas-regulated broker providing
"the fullest technology solutions and designated
"licence account managers."
Remember, FCA stands for Financial Conduct Authority.
If you're regulated by these guys, you have to follow strict rules
which protect the UK public from risky investments.
So when it says "We use a broker regulated by the FCA",
and then it references a Bahamas broker... Yeah.
..do you know which one it is? Because it can't be both.
It can't be FCA-regulated in the Bahamas, can it?
Great question. I thought...
..you can be both. I thought it was like a certificate, so I didn't know
what the FCA thing was.
I thought it was like certificates. "Oh, we're UK-regulated,
"we're Bahamas-regulated, so we're allowed to run our company in these
"different countries, but it's the same company," if that makes sense.
So I thought of it as FCA-regulated and Bahamas-regulated,
so they've got the backing from both of those countries,
if that makes sense. So that's how I've seen it when I've...
Obviously, I've been told by Tristan to write that.
So you're essentially saying you wrote that on your website,
but you didn't know what it meant. Is that right?
I was with Tristan when he told me to write it on the website.
I wouldn't say the website's just mine, if that makes sense.
But it's in your name and they couldn't have done it without you.
I mean, if someone said to me at that point,
"I want a thing called MA Trades and just stick this stuff on it,"
I'd say, "I'm not putting that in my name." I think it's reasonable to
say you should have checked if the information on there was
factual, but it does go beyond that... OK. ..because if you take a
look at this - these are some screengrabs of
your correspondence with people. Yeah.
Someone has asked, "Is this FCA-regulated?"
That's your response. What have you written there?
"Of course, fully regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority."
Two things with that... So let's just read that again.
"Of course, fully regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority."
You're not saying there, "I'm not sure."
You're not saying, "Let me come back to you."
You're saying, "Of course, fully regulated
"by the Financial Conduct Authority."
Anyone reading that would think that was a slam-dunk answer.
Yeah, and that phone number is not mine.
We had six support staff working for us.
I chose them. I'm not saying Infinox chose them. They are chosen by me.
They will come with me to Infinox, and met with Infinox in a separate
meeting, and those six support staff...
If you speak to all the clients, they've all got a different number
for me. There's, like, six or seven different numbers.
I didn't have six or seven phones.
Each of these phones has gone to different people
who were in charge of onboarding the clients, and that message was not
sent by me, actually. So the number with your profile picture on it,
are you saying that...? That is my profile picture, but that's not me
in charge of that phone, if that makes sense.
Are you saying you're not responding here?
No, that's not me responding.
So are you aware that other people are responding and pretending
to be you? Yeah.
Do you think that might be an error in judgment?
I'd say so, but of course, at that time I'm 19,
I've received thousands of messages from people wanting
to join this service. I can't manage them all by myself.
Yeah. I've given them to friends, etc.
I mean, you're 19, but you are an adult and you're not
stupid, I'm assuming. Of course.
So, at that point, you know, do you think that was a mistake?
But you have to remember, I didn't think this was something
that was going to turn out how it turned out.
You told clients at the time that GS3 Trades was your company.
Mm-hm. Was that true? GS3 Trades isn't a company.
GS3 Trades is a name of my clientele that I brought over to Infinox.
Like a kind of mask, really. Yeah, yeah.
So my question, then, is, if it was just a mask and it was an entity,
when articles are referencing you and saying you're making
a fortune and referencing GS3 Trades, did you not think
at that point you should say, "Hold on a minute, this isn't my company
"and I'm just a front for someone else's business"?
I guess they wanted... I see it now, as I'm older -
I'm 23 now - I see it that they
wanted me to be the face of whatever they was doing.
So you think you just got swept up in it and made some mistakes?
Yeah, I'd say that. Is that fair to say? Cos the thing is, today you're
saying it wasn't your company.
At the time...
So this is from the GS3 page.
This was posted on your Instagram feed. Yeah.
Just read that for me. GS3, number one, what does it say?
"Invest £500 and GS3 will trade your account for you."
So, at that point, you're saying, "Invest £500 and GS3
"will trade your account for you." Mm-hm.
Were you able to trade anyone's account for them? No, I wasn't,
but also... So that's not true, is it? ..as you see the screenshot...
That's not true. No, no, it's not true. No, it's not true.
So why - if that's a lie, why did you stick that on your Instagram?
They told me to post it.
In my eyes, it's like having an employer.
If someone who's paying your wages and paying you tells you to do
something, I ain't going to double-think it.
I ain't going to double-cross it.
Thing is, if my employer asked me to tell a lie, I wouldn't do it.
Yeah, no... That's not double-thinking it.
It's just my instinct. It's just thinking it.
So it appears that you're saying you just didn't think.
On your social media, something that you posted was a lie?
Um... Yeah. It was, yeah?
And the thing is, of course, that prompts a warning from the FCA.
So you end up in a situation where we know you're not FCA-regulated.
The FCA say, "We believe this firm may be providing financial services
"or products in the UK without our authorisation.
"The firm is not authorised by us and is targeting people in the UK.
"Unauthorised firm, Gurvin Singh Dyal
"and GS3 Trades, GS3 Marketing Ltd." Yeah.
So this is after Infinox, they've put that warning, not during this.
This has come straight, like, way after Infinox...
So the thing is, here, you've said you're trading,
so if you were trading, you were doing that illegally
because you're not FCA-regulated, and if you weren't trading
then you were lying to clients. So which one was it?
I wasn't trading. So you were lying to clients?
No, I wasn't trading to clients, on behalf of clients.
Is it fair to say you were lying to clients?
It's fair to say... No, it's fair to say that,
but it's also fair to say I was listening to the instructions
of those who I felt employed me, sending it through email,
telling me to post this. I'm 19. I'm not seeing people lose money.
I'm seeing people make money.
I'm just not double-thinking it at this point.
So let me be really clear, because I think
this is really important.
So you're saying, because people who were a bit older
than you were telling you to lie, you thought it was OK to lie?
My bosses told me to post something on my social media.
That's what I'm going to do. So you did it. I understand,
and that's entirely your prerogative.
I think you went,
and I think there's a lot to suggest that you went way beyond marketing,
because, actually, let's take a look at this,
this screengrab, right?
"After 90 days, can I withdraw money whenever I want?"
You say... Read that for me. "Correct.
"You can withdraw it whenever you want." "Awesome."
The thing is, at this point, your job, you've said
you've been brought in for affiliate marketing. Yeah.
That goes way beyond marketing, doesn't it?
I get what you're saying.
And, for me, it was just me being very open, because I could
have easily just put them in and left, and left them there.
But once again, when you're telling people you can withdraw
whenever you want... At this point, as this message was sent,
that was the facts, if that makes sense. Let's be really clear.
At the point people did try to withdraw,
they weren't only told that they couldn't,
they were abused - and they were abused by you.
So if we look here, these are some WhatsApp exchanges. Read that to me.
"No wonder half of you can't go anywhere in your lives.
"Can't you read?" And what do you say here?
This is people talking about withdrawing.
You said, "This group is fucking crazy. You guys are stupid."
That's what you say. "Why the...?" Can I carry on...?
Yeah, please. "Why the fuck do people message me, going,
"'I'm not on the list.'? I said message me on if you're on the list.
"Can't you read? I give up, man." This is just a group chat with me,
and you can say me and my followers... There's jokes going in
this group chat, there's people sending, like, jokes
and stuff like that. There's also people really concerned about
thousands of pounds that they've invested,
and you're saying, "This group is fucking crazy,
"you guys are stupid.
"No wonder you guys can't get anywhere with your lives."
That goes way beyond affiliate marketing. I get that.
You are now managing the group and you're telling people
that they're stupid, you're abusing them. I regret that now.
I wouldn't write like that now. You wouldn't write that now? No.
Is there a moment where you wish you'd said,
"Guys, I'm in way over my head,
"I don't actually know what I'm doing,
"I'm not actually a trader,
"I've got no qualifications,
"this has been a lie"?
Do you think that would have been a better way to handle it?
But at this point, all the clients knew that I wasn't the one
trading for them. So whilst they're all in this group, they know I'm
not trading. They know I have not lied and said that I am trading.
OK, I may have said it at the beginning here, but before they've
onboarded, they signed documents where they've said,
"Yes, we agree, we know Infinox are trading."
If you're referring to it as a third party and you're just kind
of, you know, you don't really know what you're doing
and you're suggesting it's really clear, why, then, on
23/07/2019, you say on a group chat,
"These are trades that are run at the moment which are in strong
"winning positions, but you can't see them as they're
"not closed trades"? Yeah. And then you go on.
That to me isn't someone saying, "I don't really know what I'm doing
"and the trading is by someone else."
You're saying these trades that are on at the moment
are on strong winning positions,
or you're suggesting that you know
what you're talking about. At that point where you sound
like you know what you're talking about,
are you lying then, or are you lying today?
What do you mean?
So did you know what you were talking about there?
No, I'm forwarding the message on. You're forwarding the message.
So that... So you wouldn't accredit that to yourself?
You didn't really believe trades were in a strong winning position,
even though that was accredited to your number and you sent it out
from your phone?
But then you have to remember, this is such a big company to me.
They're telling me to forward this on to the clients.
You don't take any responsibility for that? No, so... No, I don't.
Let's just focus on the clients that you'd recruited. Yeah.
So the people that you'd referred - and I've spoken to lots of them -
the thing is, Gurvin, a lot of those people believe
that you scammed them.
Yeah, of course. Do you understand that? No, I do...
So how would you respond to them?
I do get why, and I need the clients to know
that I didn't benefit from this. If I did, literally, I would say,
but I was a victim because I've lost money, as well.
I've been brought down in my financial gain
at that point, as well.
And we hit January, February and my finances are lower
than before I started doing Infinox, OK?
I've lost money in the process because of the marketing.
With the people we're talking about specifically here, 350 people
in this group, they've lost thousands and thousands of pounds.
I've spoken to people directly that were recruited by you, who put
in their student loans, who put in their life savings, who borrowed
money from family members. Mm-hm.
Do you acknowledge that they wouldn't have invested
their money if you hadn't have been complicit in this lie?
Agree, but if it wasn't them, it would have been someone else,
because Infinox would have got a different influencer to market it.
You know Jonathan.
So Jonathan is one of the guys that I spoke to. Yeah, I've heard of him.
Jonathan specifically lost £17,000 of his money.
Do you acknowledge that for someone like Jonathan, and all those other
people that lost money because of a scheme that you'd recruited them
to, it's frustrating? Yes, very.
I'd be in the same boat and I'd really hate me
if I was them, as well.
But wasn't everyone just being naive to Infinox, who were actually
the ones who were the ones feeding these lies?
I think primarily because you were the one doing the pushing,
they were the clients, you were the one doing the pushing.
They got their friends and family involved, as well.
They were pushing. It's not the same thing, though, is it?
There wasn't a Jonathan Trades that was registered and, you know,
sparked a backlash from the FCA for not being regulated.
There is a Gurvin Singh 3 Trades. No, I get that.
But my communication was directly with Infinox, everything I thought I
was doing was because Infinox told me to,
and I thought it was all factual.
I want to talk to you about the culture because you have said
publicly that you've been on social media since the age of 11. Yeah.
Something that you said - I was watching since you unblocked me
from your Instagram. Yeah.
You said, "I could save so much money if I wasn't
"staying in the Shard as much as I do.
"The main reason I do it is because I know you guys
"like watching that." Mm-hm.
Do you worry that you've been
presenting a kind of distorted
version of reality for so long
that you've lost the ability to kind of keep in touch with what's
actually real and what your life is actually about?
Um, so, just a very great question.
I wouldn't say I've lost touch with myself.
As I said, like, literally, as we sat here, I actually had a free meal
on the way here, as I told you, at the temple. Sure. You asked me
what I had for breakfast. I told you I went to the temple.
I guess my question isn't about losing touch with yourself.
It's about losing touch with reality. Mm-hm.
Because, of course, you post a lot, saying you're staying in the Shard.
Yeah. When I found you, you weren't at the Shard. You were at your
parents' house in East London. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Your parents have a decent house. Yeah. It's an average house.
There's nothing wrong with that. What I'm asking you is,
your reality online isn't your reality in real life,
so are you worried about losing touch with reality?
No, I mean, you've only been watching my social media recently.
If you do watch my social media now, I show my home, that makes sense.
I show me taking my dog on a walk daily.
I show every aspect of my life.
I mean, since you unblocked me, I have looked at your Instagram
and I've seen pictures of you with a helicopter, pictures
with you going to a particular hotel, you know, pictures
of you travelling, all that kind of stuff. You know, is there a bit
of you that thinks, "OK, maybe it's time for a bit of humility
"and not to be constantly presenting this version of reality,
"which isn't real"? Well, it is real, I was with a helicopter,
I took the picture of the helicopter.
If I'm driving my supercar down the road, it's my supercar.
You get what I'm trying to say? So it is real. It's...
You can't say it's not real, if you get what I'm trying to say,
because it is real for me.
It's not an accurate representation of your life, is it?
Why would you say that?
Because posting lots of pictures from the Shard is very different
from posting lots of pictures from your bedroom in East London,
which is where I found you. It's two different things.
But then where do I spend most of my time? That's what you have to
weigh up, as well, if you get what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I think you
spend most of the time at your parents' house because that's where
I found you. No, I agree with you there. I do spend most of my time
at my parents' house. You can see that. I just... I think the reason
I'm asking you about kind of connection with reality
is because I think there is a theme -
I don't mean this to be offensive, but there's a theme
about - if I'm being kind - I'd say being economical with the truth.
Right? So, recently, these are some statements that you put out.
You said, "I got a phone call from the guy doing the documentary."
I'm assuming that's me. Yeah? Mm-hm.
"Everyone can see I want to move on with my life,
"so I said no." Mm-hm.
"I told him I'm not interested in his documentary and not
"to contact me again."
Right, we both know that isn't true.
You blocked me on Instagram.
You told me your name was Govinda Atwell, and I had a wrong number.
Right? You had every opportunity to respond to these allegations
and yet you chose not to.
I was instructed by my lawyer not to.
I've even been instructed today not to come.
But I feel like, if I hide from it, then you're going to make me look
worse, and I want the truth to get out there,
so I've had to take my own decision on that.
Is there anything else you want to say? I need people to know that
everything I did was because these guys who I've looked at and looked
at and gone, "Wow," like, I'm so happy at this point
that I'm working for these guys,
I've done what they've told me to and it's come out
now that obviously a lot of stuff that they've made me say was lies.
And I apologise for not looking into that further,
but at that point
I guess people need to see that there's two sides of the story.