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[Stewart] Coming up on The Problem...
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America hired itself
as the guardian of world peace,
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and our foreign policy has been
everything, everywhere, all at once.
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[audience chuckling]
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We're competing for talent.
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Almost 40% of our budget is pay
for the people that we hire.
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You don't want China coming in, going,
"What are they offering you?"
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{\an8}We are the agents of this instability,
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in search of cheaper oil,
cheaper goods, cheaper labor.
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It's certainly arguable.
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- Doesn't mean that I embrace it.
- You-- You will embrace it, sir.
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[audience applauding, cheering]
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Hey!
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Hello!
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Welcome!
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I'm Jon Stewart.
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You know, in the old Daily Show days,
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I used to doodle and, like, pretend
that I was doing something.
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Now I look at this
and pretend I'm reading it
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because without... [chuckles] ...my glasses,
I can't even read this script.
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I just wanted you to know that.
I'm an old man.
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My name is Jon Stewart,
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and I wanted to ask you, uh,
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the audience here
and the audience at home,
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are you enjoying your peace dividend?
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[audience laughs]
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You know what a peace dividend is?
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Your peace dividend is the bonus
that citizens of a country enjoy
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when their country finally emerges
from years of conflict, of war.
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We have had 20 years of war. Yes.
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[whispering] Twenty years.
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[normal voice] And from what I understand,
it's now-- It's over.
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Trillions of dollars spent,
thousands of lives lost--
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hundreds of thousands of lives lost
if you count the lives in other countries,
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which as you know, we-- we do not.
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[audience laughing]
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The reasonable expectation
for Americans might be
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that the war-fighting arm
of the American system,
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the Defense Department,
would thus be receiving
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a postwar bit of what we'll call
a haircut, budgetarily.
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{\an8}The Senate passing a record $858 billion
defense authorization bill.
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[reporter] I believe $45 billion more
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than the White House was asking for
in this budget.
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{\an8}Was that necessary?
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{\an8}No, it wasn't.
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- [scoffs] Wha--
- [audience laughing]
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Take-- No. Take your time with the answer.
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Yes. It almost never is.
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You got it correct. $858 billion.
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The war's ended,
and the Pentagon got a raise.
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Forty-five billion dollars could hire
400,000 nurses,
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subsidize health care
for over 15 million children,
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fix every one
of America's failing bridges.
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Why in God's name does the Pentagon,
in a postwar environment, need more money?
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{\an8}The world continues
to flirt with World War III.
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{\an8}- [reporter 2] Tensions rising with China.
- Another object flying over Alaska.
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{\an8}[reporter 3] ...unprecedented number
of missile tests by North Korea.
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{\an8}[reporter 4]
A major incident is only a matter of time.
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{\an8}Putin and his military leaders
have threatened nuclear war.
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[audience laughing]
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Nuclear war?
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No problem. They told me in grade school
that this would work.
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- Hold on, I'll be right back--
- [laughing continues]
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So this never ends!
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Because the world needs us on that wall.
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And that wall has to be built
by professional contractors like Raytheon.
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And those contractors
have to dip their balls in gold.
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- Oh, gold and balls. Perfect together.
- [audience laughing]
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Two great tastes that go great together.
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Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
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For nearly seven decades,
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the United States has been
the anchor of global security.
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This has meant doing more
than forging international agreements.
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It has meant enforcing them.
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The burdens of leadership are often heavy,
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but the world's a better place
because we have borne them.
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I forgot how fucking slow he used to talk.
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[audience laughing]
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I literally--
I almost fell out of my chair like--
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[audience laughs]
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'Cause, you know, anytime he speaks
from the "I killed bin Laden" hallway,
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you know shit's about to go down.
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[audience laughs]
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But the point is very simple.
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The United States doesn't wanna do this,
but we have to,
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for you, the free world.
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And thus...
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"The Problem with Defense."
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Since World War II,
America has hired itself
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as the guardian of global security
and international order.
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But for some reason,
this massive job of world peace
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is funneled almost entirely
through the Department of Blowing Shit Up.
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Of course, there are other avenues
to maintain world peace.
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But when the entire budget
of your State Department,
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the carrot part of our government,
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{\an8}is $52 billion,
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{\an8}and $75 billion is going
to just one stick-maker,
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what do you think
we're gonna reach for first?
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Carrot or stick?
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How does it happen?
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Well, there's 535 members of Congress.
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And last year, there were
816 defense contractor lobbyists.
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So war has more representatives
in Congress than Americans do.
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Even our lead peace activist has pivoted
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to selling bespoke dildos on Netflix.
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[audience laughing]
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I'm told each one of those costs
a million dollars at the Pentagon.
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[audience laughs]
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So the question becomes, are we getting
our world peace money's worth?
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Because over the years, we've employed
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many different costly international
agreement-enforcing measures.
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We've tried
the bomb-and-leave methodology.
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It's a bit of an ordnance sampler
that says we care,
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but not enough for boots on the ground...
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that I know about.
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- [audience laughs]
- [clicks tongue]
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Does it work?
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Well, it's more cost effective, but it's--
pardon the phrase-- hit-or-miss.
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And then, of course, we offer countries
the platinum package: the bomb-and-stay.
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Your Koreas, your Vietnams,
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your Afghanistans, your Iraqs.
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You may ask yourself,
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"Why do we have to stay so long
in those places?"
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Well, it turns out that
when you bomb the shit out of a place,
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the instability you create
needs to be managed.
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For instance,
when we took out Saddam Hussein...
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[chuckles] ...the craziest thing happened.
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{\an8}ISIS originated with Al-Qaeda in Iraq,
going back to 2005, 2006, 2007--
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We had to stay there
to deal with the ISIS threat,
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which we caused by taking out Saddam.
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- It totally worked.
- [audience laughs]
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{\an8}[reporter 5] ISIS has spread far beyond
its strongholds in Syria and Iraq.
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{\an8}In fact,
US military officials tell NBC news
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{\an8}they worry about the growing signs
of ISIS presence
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{\an8}in a half dozen other places.
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You see, sometimes a side effect
of spreading democracy
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is accidentally spreading ISIS
and a refugee crisis.
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Moving on.
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Maybe you're looking for
more of a refresher package
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without all that collateral damage,
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in which case,
America will teach you how to bomb.
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We offer military training
to nascent democratic republics
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looking to shore up those aspirations.
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- We do that a lot. [chuckles]
- [audience laughs]
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And while that occasionally does lead
to newly trained militaries
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overthrowing those nascent democracies...
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you gotta risk it
to get the biscuit. [laughs]
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[audience laughing]
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And then there's just
the straight fucking coups.
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{\an8}Have we ever tried to meddle
in other countries' elections?
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{\an8}Oh, probably.
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{\an8}But, uh, it was for the good of the system
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{\an8}in order to avoid the communists
from taking over.
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{\an8}We don't do that now? We don't mess around
in other people's elections, Jim?
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{\an8}Well, mmm... [mumbles]
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[audience laughing]
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She asked you if we do coups,
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and your response was the same as you get
when you're lapping up soft ice cream.
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[audience laughing]
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Are we overthrowing leaders?
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[imitating Woolsey]
Mmm, yum-yum-yum-yum-yum...
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- Mmm. [smacks lips]
- [audience laughing]
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[normal voice] The point is,
being the world's policeman is a big job
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because the world is
a very dangerous place
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filled with many dangerous weapons.
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And here's where it gets tricky.
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We are also
the world's largest weapons dealer.
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While we are personally enforcing
global security agreements,
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we are also seeding the world
with global chaos starter kits.
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And while, occasionally,
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two of the countries we sell weapons to
end up fighting each other
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or use those weapons to commit war crimes,
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we are very careful with what happens
to these precious weapons.
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{\an8}[reporter 6] Courtesy of Uncle Sam,
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{\an8}American-supplied armor
now riding under Taliban colors.
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{\an8}The spoils of victory being paraded
by the new masters of Kandahar.
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- [imitating Steve Urkel] Did we do that?
- [audience laughing]
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[normal voice]
By the way, Masters of Kandahar is
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the worst reality show I've ever seen.
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I am starting to wonder
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if the anchor of global security might be
attached to a sinking ship.
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Since 1945,
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our mostly chasing-our-tail
military strategy has been
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everything, everywhere, all at once.
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[audience laughing]
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That's super fucking creepy, that graphic.
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- [chuckles, stammers]
- [audience laughing]
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Such a good movie though.
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And while it's incredibly expensive
and not that successful,
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at least it's unsustainable.
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Twenty percent of America's total budget
goes to defense.
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Fifty percent of America's
discretionary budget goes to defense.
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We spend more money on defense
than the next nine countries combined,
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including China and Russia.
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We spend $55 billion a year
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maintaining about 750 military bases
in 80 different countries and territories
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and then added a space force
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'cause I don't think we appreciate
Venus's attitude.
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Are you looking at us?
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[audience laughs]
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But we can keep this going
'cause we're America.
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King Kong got nothing on us!
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What goes up can stay up indefinitely.
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Unless it's of unknown or Chinese origin.
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And yes, our reach extends to the bases,
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to our interventions,
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the arms sales and to the coups.
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We look a lot like an empire.
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And as the Roman Empire learned,
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and then the Ottoman Empire,
and then the British Empire,
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we appear to be out over our skis a bit.
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It's like we're playing
a game of Risk with ourselves.
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Meanwhile, at home, our infrastructure
plan seems to rest solely on the stamina
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of one 400-year-old man.
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[audience laughing]
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After decades of destruction
both at home and abroad,
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maybe it's time for the United States
military and media industrial complex
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to lay down our weapons and rethink
this suicide pact of a strategy,
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believing that we can not just influence
but control the world.
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Maybe we need a moment
to take a breather and think.
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{\an8}War with China could be coming
as soon as 2025.
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Go fuck yourself.
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[audience laughing]
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Take a look at this.
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[audience cheering, applauding]
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{\an8}- America has...
- ...no money...
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{\an8}- ...so please...
- ...stop asking us...
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{\an8}- ...to provide for...
- ...our own citizens.
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{\an8}We must be fiscally responsible.
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{\an8}We're broke.
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{\an8}- We can't...
- ...feed everybody.
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{\an8}- We're broke.
- We can't help...
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{\an8}...every American.
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{\an8}We just don't have the money to do it.
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{\an8}- But if you want to...
- ...start a war...
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{\an8}...surely we can...
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{\an8}...find the money for that.
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{\an8}- How much money do you need?
- A couple billion dollars.
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{\an8}- 5.7.
- Twelve.
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{\an8}- 700.
- 1.7.
241
00:13:35,941 --> 00:13:37,192
{\an8}- Six trillion.
- Thirty trillion.
242
00:13:37,192 --> 00:13:40,237
{\an8}- How about 35 or 40 trillion...
- ...for defense contractors...
243
00:13:40,237 --> 00:13:42,322
{\an8}...all around the world.
244
00:13:42,823 --> 00:13:44,741
{\an8}We are always going to have...
245
00:13:44,741 --> 00:13:46,743
{\an8}- ...money for...
- ...defense contractors...
246
00:13:46,743 --> 00:13:48,203
{\an8}...because they're our friends.
247
00:13:48,203 --> 00:13:50,163
{\an8}- They pay for...
- ...our campaigns.
248
00:13:50,163 --> 00:13:51,623
{\an8}So everyday Americans are...
249
00:13:51,623 --> 00:13:52,791
{\an8}...not important to us.
250
00:13:52,791 --> 00:13:54,251
{\an8}- But if you...
- ...profit from war...
251
00:13:54,251 --> 00:13:56,253
{\an8}- ...we'll give you...
- ...anything that you want...
252
00:13:56,253 --> 00:13:57,171
{\an8}...for democracy.
253
00:13:57,171 --> 00:13:58,881
{\an8}Mmm... [mumbles]
254
00:13:58,881 --> 00:14:01,133
{\an8}[audience laughing, cheering, applauding]
255
00:14:01,133 --> 00:14:03,677
- All right. So...
- [cheering, applauding continues]
256
00:14:03,677 --> 00:14:05,345
...to help-- [exclaims]
257
00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:07,681
Nicely done.
258
00:14:07,681 --> 00:14:10,392
Uh, to help make sense
of our ever-growing defense spending
259
00:14:10,392 --> 00:14:12,269
and its ramifications,
both abroad and at home,
260
00:14:12,269 --> 00:14:14,021
{\an8}we have with us today Michael McCord,
261
00:14:14,021 --> 00:14:17,858
{\an8}who is the chief financial officer
and comptroller at the Defense Department.
262
00:14:17,858 --> 00:14:20,068
{\an8}We have Farhad Yousafzai,
263
00:14:20,068 --> 00:14:22,905
{\an8}the former head of procurement
in Afghanistan
264
00:14:22,905 --> 00:14:25,657
{\an8}for USAID and military projects.
265
00:14:25,657 --> 00:14:26,909
{\an8}And Elizabeth Shackelford.
266
00:14:26,909 --> 00:14:29,620
{\an8}She's a career diplomat across Africa
267
00:14:29,620 --> 00:14:34,124
{\an8}and senior fellow on US foreign policy
at the Chicago Council on Global Affairs.
268
00:14:34,124 --> 00:14:36,835
Thank you guys so much for joining us.
It's much appreciated.
269
00:14:36,835 --> 00:14:39,588
- [audience cheering, applauding]
- Uh...
270
00:14:39,588 --> 00:14:41,673
- Michael, I'm gonna start with you.
- [McCord] Yeah.
271
00:14:41,673 --> 00:14:43,592
And I want to make sure
that we understand.
272
00:14:43,592 --> 00:14:46,637
You're just trying to make sense
of the chaos of the budget.
273
00:14:46,637 --> 00:14:47,846
Would that be correct?
274
00:14:48,347 --> 00:14:50,557
We can talk about
why is our budget the size it is.
275
00:14:50,557 --> 00:14:52,726
I would say the first thing is,
is who we are.
276
00:14:53,227 --> 00:14:55,145
Fifty years ago,
we decided to end the draft,
277
00:14:55,145 --> 00:14:56,772
so now we're competing for talent.
278
00:14:56,772 --> 00:14:59,650
So, almost 40% of our budget is pay
and allowances
279
00:14:59,650 --> 00:15:03,153
and benefits for the people that we hire:
civilians, military especially.
280
00:15:03,153 --> 00:15:04,571
So we're competing for talent.
281
00:15:04,571 --> 00:15:07,366
We're-- We're paying for--
You know, be competitive.
282
00:15:07,366 --> 00:15:09,117
You don't want them going to work
for other armies.
283
00:15:09,117 --> 00:15:10,244
Not luxurious, but competitive.
284
00:15:10,244 --> 00:15:12,663
You don't want China coming in, going,
"What are they offering you?"
285
00:15:12,663 --> 00:15:14,122
[McCord] Yep. Yep.
286
00:15:14,122 --> 00:15:15,791
- Second is what we do...
- [Stewart] Mm-hmm.
287
00:15:15,791 --> 00:15:17,960
- ...which is, we're expected to be--
- Global security.
288
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,046
Global. In this hemisphere.
Anywhere in the world.
289
00:15:21,046 --> 00:15:23,382
If you send the military,
you expect them to be able to do
290
00:15:23,382 --> 00:15:25,467
what you ask them to do, near or far.
291
00:15:25,467 --> 00:15:27,302
And then the third thing is what we buy.
292
00:15:27,302 --> 00:15:30,472
I'm talking about things
that are high-end, like submarines,
293
00:15:30,472 --> 00:15:32,432
- that only one or two companies can make.
- Right.
294
00:15:32,432 --> 00:15:33,684
- So...
- [Stewart] Right.
295
00:15:33,684 --> 00:15:35,143
Those things don't go on sale.
296
00:15:35,143 --> 00:15:37,312
[Stewart, audience laughing]
297
00:15:39,815 --> 00:15:41,233
[Stewart] I don't imagine they do.
298
00:15:41,733 --> 00:15:46,363
Uh, what about
the diplomacy-industrial complex?
299
00:15:47,406 --> 00:15:48,240
Let's just say
300
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,411
that the diplomacy-industrial complex
is not particularly robust
301
00:15:52,411 --> 00:15:54,913
and doesn't
have a lot of lobbyists on the Hill.
302
00:15:54,913 --> 00:15:57,791
You don't get the same big money that you
get from the military-industrial complex.
303
00:15:57,791 --> 00:15:59,084
When I was in South Sudan,
304
00:15:59,084 --> 00:16:02,921
which, at the time, was a country, um--
A war began while I was there.
305
00:16:02,921 --> 00:16:05,340
It was a very high focus
of the White House
306
00:16:05,340 --> 00:16:07,134
in terms of Africa policy.
307
00:16:07,134 --> 00:16:10,137
And because we were so poorly funded,
308
00:16:10,137 --> 00:16:14,349
we didn't have enough vehicles
to go to meetings and do our jobs.
309
00:16:14,349 --> 00:16:15,559
So, for example,
310
00:16:15,559 --> 00:16:18,770
while all of my military colleagues had
cars to take themselves somewhere,
311
00:16:18,770 --> 00:16:21,315
USAID colleagues and myself,
and other diplomats,
312
00:16:21,315 --> 00:16:23,150
would have to play Rock, Paper, Scissors
313
00:16:23,150 --> 00:16:25,110
to decide who got to go
do their work that day.
314
00:16:25,110 --> 00:16:26,028
Wow.
315
00:16:26,028 --> 00:16:28,655
My military colleagues always wanted us
to be able to do our jobs.
316
00:16:28,655 --> 00:16:32,367
All of them would stand up and say, uh,
"Can't you make it to this meeting?"
317
00:16:32,367 --> 00:16:36,371
But the budget differentiation
is just a representation
318
00:16:36,371 --> 00:16:37,706
of where we put our value.
319
00:16:37,706 --> 00:16:39,833
Farhad,
that brings up an interesting point.
320
00:16:39,833 --> 00:16:44,671
I remember, uh, being in Afghanistan
in, like, 2007, 2008.
321
00:16:44,671 --> 00:16:49,051
And it was very clear
that America was Afghanistan's economy...
322
00:16:49,051 --> 00:16:50,511
- Mm-hmm.
- ...at that moment.
323
00:16:50,511 --> 00:16:51,887
But I also remember thinking,
324
00:16:51,887 --> 00:16:55,474
"But we are an alien force
and culture here."
325
00:16:55,474 --> 00:16:57,476
The-- In the beginning, there was--
326
00:16:57,476 --> 00:17:02,105
People were very much optimistic
when the, uh-- after 9/11,
327
00:17:02,105 --> 00:17:03,982
when the intervention start.
328
00:17:03,982 --> 00:17:09,363
But after 2007 and '08,
things have been changed.
329
00:17:09,363 --> 00:17:12,616
The US, they didn't work with
the people of Afghanistan.
330
00:17:12,616 --> 00:17:16,662
The democracy that they were thinking
that they can implement it in Afghanistan,
331
00:17:16,662 --> 00:17:19,122
exactly what we have here in the US,
332
00:17:19,122 --> 00:17:21,959
it's not the way it work over there.
333
00:17:21,959 --> 00:17:22,876
Mm-hmm.
334
00:17:22,876 --> 00:17:28,298
It's exactly like
when we have a leakage in the roof,
335
00:17:28,298 --> 00:17:31,176
and there is water all the way fall down,
336
00:17:31,176 --> 00:17:33,720
and you're just cleaning the water
without patching the leak.
337
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,098
- We were not fixing the real problem.
- [Yousafzai] Absolutely.
338
00:17:36,098 --> 00:17:38,016
The real problem
and the source of the terrorism
339
00:17:38,016 --> 00:17:39,476
never been touched in Afghanistan.
340
00:17:39,476 --> 00:17:42,271
So, I guess,
the question that I would ask is,
341
00:17:42,271 --> 00:17:44,857
was there any real connection
342
00:17:44,857 --> 00:17:48,610
to the money that came in
and the strategic aims?
343
00:17:48,610 --> 00:17:52,281
The money that's spent in Afghanistan,
the Pentagon approve it.
344
00:17:52,281 --> 00:17:55,242
They are just not spent on the target.
345
00:17:55,242 --> 00:17:58,745
We spent the money in the areas
where was no security.
346
00:17:58,745 --> 00:18:02,040
We have no accountability
where we spend the money.
347
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,710
For example,
we spend the money on the infrastructure,
348
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:07,129
on the roads, on the buildings or clinics,
349
00:18:07,129 --> 00:18:11,175
that was damaged back
after a day or a month.
350
00:18:11,175 --> 00:18:12,718
And then we don't have anything--
351
00:18:12,718 --> 00:18:15,971
So we would build a road,
and then we would bomb that road,
352
00:18:15,971 --> 00:18:17,347
and then we would build it again?
353
00:18:17,347 --> 00:18:20,142
We-- We bombed it,
or maybe al-- Taliban bombed it,
354
00:18:20,142 --> 00:18:21,685
or maybe the contractor bombed it
355
00:18:21,685 --> 00:18:24,897
because they were doing
a very worse quality of work.
356
00:18:24,897 --> 00:18:29,568
That's right. We keep going into these
situations with an incredible aspiration.
357
00:18:29,568 --> 00:18:33,530
And every time,
reality sort of meets us in the face.
358
00:18:33,530 --> 00:18:38,410
And yet we continue to pursue
what feels like an identical strategy.
359
00:18:39,203 --> 00:18:41,830
Just keep bolstering the military complex,
360
00:18:42,456 --> 00:18:47,169
keep the diplomatic core there
but somewhat restrained.
361
00:18:47,669 --> 00:18:53,217
Is-Is that a conversation in the Pentagon
about shifting resources?
362
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,763
Or are they really just concerned
about force projection,
363
00:18:57,763 --> 00:19:01,683
and-and are they isolated
from these other missions?
364
00:19:02,184 --> 00:19:05,187
There was an attempt to train
and equip the Afghan military
365
00:19:05,187 --> 00:19:07,439
to-to stand on their own without us,
366
00:19:07,439 --> 00:19:09,316
to do economic projects.
367
00:19:09,316 --> 00:19:11,985
There were definitely,
I think, attempts to branch out
368
00:19:11,985 --> 00:19:14,488
and think about how to address
that problem specifically
369
00:19:14,488 --> 00:19:17,157
in ways that were different
than had been in other places.
370
00:19:17,157 --> 00:19:19,284
- But, um...
- [Stewart stammers] It's difficult.
371
00:19:19,284 --> 00:19:21,453
You know, in terms of a learning curve,
372
00:19:21,453 --> 00:19:25,958
we go from world power problems
to global terror problems,
373
00:19:25,958 --> 00:19:28,752
and now we're pivoting back
to world power problems.
374
00:19:28,752 --> 00:19:31,755
I think a lot of it has to do with
the tools that we're relying on.
375
00:19:31,755 --> 00:19:36,301
{\an8}And I like to think of diplomacy as being
your primary care physician, right.
376
00:19:36,301 --> 00:19:39,513
{\an8}The person that you go to to do
preventative work, preventative medicine.
377
00:19:39,513 --> 00:19:43,308
And when you're looking at places
that are already unstable and troubled,
378
00:19:43,308 --> 00:19:46,562
you have-- you have underlying issues
that need to be addressed.
379
00:19:46,562 --> 00:19:49,690
You have grievances against a government
that's not serving its people.
380
00:19:49,690 --> 00:19:50,899
You have economic issues,
381
00:19:50,899 --> 00:19:53,652
so people don't have jobs
and can't support their families.
382
00:19:53,652 --> 00:19:55,153
You have food insecurity.
383
00:19:55,654 --> 00:19:59,408
And none of those can be addressed
with a military solution.
384
00:20:00,033 --> 00:20:02,494
- So we understand--
- [audience applauding]
385
00:20:03,245 --> 00:20:04,955
[chuckles]
386
00:20:08,125 --> 00:20:10,752
- [Shackelford] So, the mil--
- Hold on one-- You hippie motherfuckers.
387
00:20:10,752 --> 00:20:13,422
- [audience laughing]
- [chuckles]
388
00:20:15,591 --> 00:20:19,219
So, we understand that we need that--
389
00:20:19,219 --> 00:20:21,221
you know, that we need to use
those other tools.
390
00:20:21,221 --> 00:20:24,057
But, you know,
you look at the additional $45 billion
391
00:20:24,057 --> 00:20:26,185
that Congress gave
to the Department of Defense.
392
00:20:26,185 --> 00:20:30,022
That's not a huge amount of money to them.
I don't know why.
393
00:20:30,022 --> 00:20:33,108
But to the--
For the international affairs budget,
394
00:20:33,108 --> 00:20:36,111
which is the entire
civilian foreign affairs budget
395
00:20:36,111 --> 00:20:37,821
that covers State Department, USAID,
396
00:20:37,821 --> 00:20:39,948
for development work
and a lot of other things...
397
00:20:39,948 --> 00:20:42,284
[stammers]
...that's, like, 70% of what we get.
398
00:20:42,284 --> 00:20:44,870
- That additional tack-on from Congress.
- Really? The tip.
399
00:20:44,870 --> 00:20:47,039
- The little top-off that they gave...
- That little top-off.
400
00:20:47,039 --> 00:20:50,042
- ...would be almost everything for you guys.
- Almost everything for us.
401
00:20:50,042 --> 00:20:52,961
And so just imagine
how much more we could do
402
00:20:52,961 --> 00:20:54,546
if we had those types of resources
403
00:20:54,546 --> 00:20:57,049
and we were able to do our jobs
more effectively.
404
00:20:57,591 --> 00:20:59,426
[Stewart] I think the experience
you had, Farhad, was,
405
00:20:59,426 --> 00:21:02,804
if everything, uh--
if you're a hammer, everything's a nail.
406
00:21:03,388 --> 00:21:05,891
And that's-- I was just trying
to go with the roof thing, Farhad.
407
00:21:05,891 --> 00:21:07,809
- I don't know.
- [audience laughing]
408
00:21:08,644 --> 00:21:11,063
Y-You know what? [stammers]
409
00:21:11,063 --> 00:21:15,025
We spent millions of dollar
on Afghan army.
410
00:21:15,943 --> 00:21:22,658
{\an8}But we-- we also spent million of dollars
to support Pakistan army as well.
411
00:21:22,658 --> 00:21:25,327
And they were the people who trained
the al-- Taliban back
412
00:21:25,327 --> 00:21:27,412
and bring them all of a sudden,
413
00:21:27,412 --> 00:21:30,457
after 20 years, in one month,
and collapse everything.
414
00:21:30,457 --> 00:21:32,584
And in 1980s,
415
00:21:32,584 --> 00:21:37,005
our parents were the partner with the US,
and we defeated Russia.
416
00:21:37,005 --> 00:21:40,217
At that time, we also left behind.
417
00:21:41,051 --> 00:21:42,177
And what happened?
418
00:21:42,678 --> 00:21:45,347
What happened on 9/11
in your neighborhood,
419
00:21:45,347 --> 00:21:48,684
it was happening every day for 20 years
in Afghanistan,
420
00:21:48,684 --> 00:21:53,063
but no one see it
until the world shock on 9/11,
421
00:21:53,063 --> 00:21:55,315
and we went back to Afghanistan.
422
00:21:56,358 --> 00:22:00,028
What happened right now in Afghanistan
is worse than that.
423
00:22:00,028 --> 00:22:05,033
The Taliban is more trained,
well-equipped,
424
00:22:05,033 --> 00:22:07,411
and also,
we leave behind a lot of equipment,
425
00:22:07,411 --> 00:22:12,207
a lot of military equipment-- weapons,
night vision, body armor-- over there.
426
00:22:12,708 --> 00:22:17,838
That is the biggest concern
for our future generation as well.
427
00:22:17,838 --> 00:22:21,800
It does feel like we repeat
the same mistake in 20-year cycles.
428
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,178
I-I-I thank you guys so much,
uh, for being here,
429
00:22:24,178 --> 00:22:27,639
'cause it really does appear
that we're chasing our tails.
430
00:22:27,639 --> 00:22:29,892
Uh, thank you so much,
431
00:22:29,892 --> 00:22:33,061
Michael McCord, Farhad Yousafzai
and Elizabeth Shackelford.
432
00:22:33,061 --> 00:22:34,479
[audience applauding, cheering]
433
00:22:34,479 --> 00:22:37,357
- All right, well, uh...
- [cheering, applauding continues]
434
00:22:37,357 --> 00:22:41,195
So, uh, to get some perspective
from someone on the front lines,
435
00:22:41,195 --> 00:22:43,530
uh, in our felt-like-forever wars,
436
00:22:43,530 --> 00:22:45,532
we sat down with retired four-star general
437
00:22:45,532 --> 00:22:48,410
and former commander of troops in Iraq
and Afghanistan,
438
00:22:48,410 --> 00:22:49,953
General David Petraeus.
439
00:22:50,537 --> 00:22:53,624
{\an8}General Petraeus, in your mind,
440
00:22:54,333 --> 00:23:00,005
what is the purpose of American
military might around the world?
441
00:23:01,006 --> 00:23:04,801
Well, look, the purpose of our military,
of course, fundamentally, uh,
442
00:23:04,801 --> 00:23:08,222
is to protect our territorial integrity,
443
00:23:08,222 --> 00:23:11,683
our citizens, our sovereignty,
our interests
444
00:23:11,683 --> 00:23:13,519
and Americans around the world.
445
00:23:13,519 --> 00:23:14,728
Mmm.
446
00:23:14,728 --> 00:23:16,438
To be a bit more specific--
447
00:23:16,438 --> 00:23:19,900
I actually did a tiny bit of research
for this, uh, and I-- I--
448
00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:21,193
I should have done that.
449
00:23:21,193 --> 00:23:23,237
- What was I thinking?
- What were you thinking?
450
00:23:23,237 --> 00:23:26,573
- I wrote down five foreign policy goals.
- [groans] Okay.
451
00:23:26,573 --> 00:23:28,534
Um, and so to put those up front:
452
00:23:28,534 --> 00:23:30,661
- preserve our national security...
- Okay.
453
00:23:30,661 --> 00:23:33,747
...protect world peace
in a secure global environment,
454
00:23:33,747 --> 00:23:36,458
uh, maintain a balance
of power among nations,
455
00:23:36,458 --> 00:23:39,503
work with allies and others
to solve international problems,
456
00:23:39,503 --> 00:23:42,589
promote democratic values,
uh, and human rights.
457
00:23:42,589 --> 00:23:47,511
So it's sort of a force
for balance, stability,
458
00:23:47,511 --> 00:23:50,472
and the world order...
459
00:23:50,472 --> 00:23:52,558
- Yeah, I mean, from our perspective.
- ...as we see it.
460
00:23:52,558 --> 00:23:54,351
- From our perspective.
- And from our perspective,
461
00:23:54,351 --> 00:23:56,270
you might even say
it would be a force for good.
462
00:23:56,270 --> 00:23:59,439
You know, my experience mostly
in the last 20, 25 years,
463
00:23:59,439 --> 00:24:01,692
like everybody else's,
is Iraq and Afghanistan.
464
00:24:02,276 --> 00:24:06,655
But it's hard for me
to look at those interventions
465
00:24:06,655 --> 00:24:09,741
and see the metrics with, uh-- [stammers]
466
00:24:09,741 --> 00:24:14,705
that you describe
as being on the plus side.
467
00:24:14,705 --> 00:24:16,039
Let's start with Afghanistan
468
00:24:16,039 --> 00:24:19,585
because that was the first intervention,
uh, understandably.
469
00:24:19,585 --> 00:24:21,795
That's where
the 9/11 attacks were planned,
470
00:24:21,795 --> 00:24:24,631
when al-Qaeda had a sanctuary there
under Taliban rule.
471
00:24:24,631 --> 00:24:27,384
- Mm-hmm.
- We went there for a simple reason.
472
00:24:27,384 --> 00:24:30,429
When the Taliban refused
to eliminate that sanctuary...
473
00:24:30,429 --> 00:24:33,182
- Mm-hmm.
- ...we went in to eliminate it, uh,
474
00:24:33,182 --> 00:24:35,100
and to ensure that it could not come back.
475
00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:37,644
- Because we--
- And-And in that moment, though,
476
00:24:38,270 --> 00:24:40,439
we also have the responsibility then--
477
00:24:40,439 --> 00:24:43,734
We're training an army,
and we're trying to--
478
00:24:43,734 --> 00:24:46,111
- Well, we're helping a country...
- Helping a country--
479
00:24:46,111 --> 00:24:47,529
...reestablish its institutions.
480
00:24:47,529 --> 00:24:50,115
Right. [stammers] People would refer to it
as nation-building.
481
00:24:50,115 --> 00:24:52,659
- We're nation-building in Afghanistan...
- Yes, sure. Yep. Yep.
482
00:24:52,659 --> 00:24:55,996
- ...after achieving a military objective.
- Yep.
483
00:24:55,996 --> 00:24:57,122
Which was inescapable.
484
00:24:57,122 --> 00:25:00,375
I know that a lot of the--
That many people conclude that, you know,
485
00:25:00,375 --> 00:25:04,671
"It all went wrong.
We should have just taken out bin Laden."
486
00:25:04,671 --> 00:25:07,257
Of course to take him out,
we had to take out the Taliban.
487
00:25:07,257 --> 00:25:10,344
So the country is now
without any organizing principles.
488
00:25:10,344 --> 00:25:12,804
- Right. Yeah.
- And the problem was that
489
00:25:12,804 --> 00:25:15,724
we didn't focus sufficiently early on.
490
00:25:15,724 --> 00:25:17,893
- We had an incredible--
- Well, we had Iraq.
491
00:25:17,893 --> 00:25:20,646
- And so then you shifted focus.
- That's right.
492
00:25:20,646 --> 00:25:27,486
Ungoverned spaces in the Muslim world
will be filled with Islamist extremists.
493
00:25:27,486 --> 00:25:30,572
It drives violence, more extremism,
494
00:25:30,572 --> 00:25:32,741
sometimes a tsunami of refugees,
495
00:25:32,741 --> 00:25:37,496
as we saw with the reconstitution
of the Islamic State after we left Iraq.
496
00:25:37,496 --> 00:25:42,042
But thinking about our interventions
in not just Afghanistan and Iraq,
497
00:25:42,042 --> 00:25:44,127
but you think about what we did in Libya,
498
00:25:44,837 --> 00:25:50,884
they estimate that 37 million refugees
were created by the interventions.
499
00:25:50,884 --> 00:25:53,512
So are we not creating,
500
00:25:54,596 --> 00:25:58,141
through our
interventionist foreign policy,
501
00:25:59,184 --> 00:26:05,399
the very conditions
that you say we're trying to avoid?
502
00:26:05,399 --> 00:26:06,942
The fundamental question then is,
503
00:26:06,942 --> 00:26:09,695
do you give up,
or do you just try to learn from that?
504
00:26:09,695 --> 00:26:10,654
How do you get better?
505
00:26:10,654 --> 00:26:13,615
- I mean, the situation really throughout--
- Or do we humble ourselves?
506
00:26:13,615 --> 00:26:15,033
I think we've been humbled.
507
00:26:15,033 --> 00:26:17,703
Again, our ambitions have been
very tempered.
508
00:26:17,703 --> 00:26:22,916
Um, and so, what we did, for example,
when we went back into Iraq,
509
00:26:22,916 --> 00:26:24,001
which we had to do
510
00:26:24,001 --> 00:26:28,338
because the Islamic State had established
a caliphate. That's very worrisome.
511
00:26:28,338 --> 00:26:31,425
- But in many ways, because of us.
- They were attracting tens of thousands--
512
00:26:31,425 --> 00:26:33,218
[stammers] We'd been gone by then, Jon.
513
00:26:33,218 --> 00:26:36,597
- But we created the conditions for that.
- And pursued highly sectarian--
514
00:26:36,597 --> 00:26:40,517
Well, again, the real question is,
it comes back to, you know,
515
00:26:40,517 --> 00:26:43,187
when should you intervene,
how should you intervene...
516
00:26:43,187 --> 00:26:45,314
- There you go.
- ...and how ambitious should it be?
517
00:26:45,314 --> 00:26:49,735
And I would contend that our experiences
in Iraq and Afghanistan
518
00:26:49,735 --> 00:26:55,449
have very much tempered
our enthusiasm, our ambitions,
519
00:26:55,449 --> 00:26:59,119
our-- our views on what might be possible.
520
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:00,746
Have you seen the evidence of that?
521
00:27:00,746 --> 00:27:04,458
Because it looks to me like
we lost 20 years in Afghanistan,
522
00:27:04,458 --> 00:27:06,126
20 years in Iraq,
523
00:27:06,126 --> 00:27:07,878
and the Pentagon got a raise.
524
00:27:07,878 --> 00:27:10,923
They got 50 billion more dollars
than they even asked for.
525
00:27:11,507 --> 00:27:12,382
There's no oversight.
526
00:27:12,382 --> 00:27:14,092
That's not because
of Iraq and Afghanistan.
527
00:27:14,092 --> 00:27:16,428
That's because of a return
of great power rivalries
528
00:27:16,428 --> 00:27:18,639
and the need to transform the-- the force.
529
00:27:18,639 --> 00:27:25,687
It feels like the military-industrial
complex is the one undefeated combatant
530
00:27:26,396 --> 00:27:27,856
in all of our adventures.
531
00:27:27,856 --> 00:27:34,321
I do think that the security challenges
that face us right now...
532
00:27:34,321 --> 00:27:37,616
- Mm-hmm.
- ...are more complex and actually greater
533
00:27:37,616 --> 00:27:41,828
than any that we have faced,
actually, during the post-Cold War era.
534
00:27:41,828 --> 00:27:45,374
It's just hard to see the evidence
of a learning curve manifest.
535
00:27:45,374 --> 00:27:51,088
It still feels like our foreign policy is,
uh, everything, everywhere, all at once.
536
00:27:51,088 --> 00:27:54,758
Well, I th-- I think the argument there
is going to be that,
537
00:27:54,758 --> 00:27:57,928
"Look, if we don't do it,
someone else will."
538
00:27:57,928 --> 00:28:00,848
If you think of us as the guy
in the circus
539
00:28:00,848 --> 00:28:03,350
who puts a plate on a stick
and gets it spinning,
540
00:28:03,892 --> 00:28:08,730
the biggest plate, I think, bigger
than all the others together, is China.
541
00:28:08,730 --> 00:28:12,150
It's the US relationship with China.
The US with our allies and partners.
542
00:28:12,150 --> 00:28:14,111
They help us keep
some of these plates spinning.
543
00:28:14,111 --> 00:28:16,864
But then you have still North Korea
with its nuclear program.
544
00:28:16,864 --> 00:28:19,241
- But perhaps maybe the issue is...
- Then there's Russia, Islamists--
545
00:28:19,241 --> 00:28:20,576
...we're not gonna solve--
546
00:28:20,576 --> 00:28:24,705
- And maybe it's American understanding--
- It's okay. Just keep the plate spinning.
547
00:28:24,705 --> 00:28:27,958
- You don't want it to become a conflict.
- Let me give you a different analogy.
548
00:28:28,458 --> 00:28:31,170
Rather than us being a plate spinner,
549
00:28:32,337 --> 00:28:34,715
shouldn't we be the people
to go over and go,
550
00:28:34,715 --> 00:28:38,218
"How you guys doing with the plates?
You good? You need anything? All right."
551
00:28:38,218 --> 00:28:39,678
No, look. I think--
552
00:28:39,678 --> 00:28:43,599
Number one, I think that challenge should
be out there, intellectually.
553
00:28:43,599 --> 00:28:45,309
- Right.
- I think we should have to address
554
00:28:45,309 --> 00:28:49,688
that kind of, uh--
of view and warning and caution.
555
00:28:49,688 --> 00:28:53,192
We could have continued
to manage Afghanistan.
556
00:28:53,192 --> 00:28:56,737
Not win it, not solve it,
but you just manage it.
557
00:28:56,737 --> 00:29:01,158
I would actually contend,
given the state of Afghanistan now,
558
00:29:01,158 --> 00:29:03,827
which... [stammers]
...has half the population starving,
559
00:29:03,827 --> 00:29:06,914
half can't go to school,
half can't participate in the economy,
560
00:29:06,914 --> 00:29:08,081
and they're living under
561
00:29:08,081 --> 00:29:11,460
this incredibly oppressive, again,
eighth-century interpretation of Islam...
562
00:29:11,460 --> 00:29:13,545
- But, again, do you see--
- ...that that might have been better.
563
00:29:13,545 --> 00:29:16,965
But-But is that for us to decide
for people in other countries?
564
00:29:16,965 --> 00:29:18,759
No. Obviously we should ask them
about that.
565
00:29:18,759 --> 00:29:21,887
These aren't chess pieces
to be moved around.
566
00:29:21,887 --> 00:29:24,181
And I'll give you an example
with the toxic exposure bills
567
00:29:24,181 --> 00:29:26,892
that we've been doing for, uh, soldiers
in Iraq and Afghanistan.
568
00:29:26,892 --> 00:29:28,435
- The burn pits legislation. Yeah.
- The burn pits.
569
00:29:28,435 --> 00:29:31,396
We're having enough trouble
taking care of our people at home.
570
00:29:31,396 --> 00:29:34,816
We have left those countries
as Superfund sites.
571
00:29:34,816 --> 00:29:37,986
Those countries will bear the scars
of those burn pits.
572
00:29:37,986 --> 00:29:42,407
The chemicals of those burn pits,
it's in the soil, it's in the air,
573
00:29:42,407 --> 00:29:45,118
it's in their genes, it's in their people.
574
00:29:47,246 --> 00:29:52,167
We don't ever reckon with the true reality
575
00:29:52,167 --> 00:29:57,965
of our intellectualized exercises
in stability and democracy
576
00:29:58,757 --> 00:30:00,133
with the people on the ground.
577
00:30:00,133 --> 00:30:02,553
This is the beauty of a democracy,
that you can have--
578
00:30:02,553 --> 00:30:04,638
- Yeah.
- You can do what we're doing right here.
579
00:30:04,638 --> 00:30:06,932
And I think
this is incredibly constructive.
580
00:30:06,932 --> 00:30:09,393
But I actually do think that--
581
00:30:10,018 --> 00:30:12,437
You know, I agree
we are the indispensable nation.
582
00:30:12,437 --> 00:30:15,941
Now, that doesn't mean
you have to solve all problems
583
00:30:15,941 --> 00:30:18,110
or that you should try
to solve all problems.
584
00:30:18,110 --> 00:30:19,194
But-- But Saudi Arabia.
585
00:30:19,695 --> 00:30:21,947
Saudi Arabia buys 20% of our arms.
586
00:30:21,947 --> 00:30:24,032
This is billions and billions of dollars.
587
00:30:24,032 --> 00:30:28,662
And so, we sell them these weapons,
they bomb the hell out of Yemen.
588
00:30:28,662 --> 00:30:31,123
- Let's stop on Yemen just for a second.
- Please.
589
00:30:31,123 --> 00:30:34,168
Let's remember who started
the civil war in Yemen.
590
00:30:34,168 --> 00:30:37,004
- It's the Houthis.
- And the Houthis are supported by--
591
00:30:37,004 --> 00:30:38,547
- Iran.
- They're the proxies of Iran.
592
00:30:38,547 --> 00:30:41,592
We've chosen a side with Saudi Arabia
593
00:30:41,592 --> 00:30:45,596
because we think
they're a good counterpoint to--
594
00:30:45,596 --> 00:30:49,349
Well, compared to Iran, um, I would--
I would say that that's correct.
595
00:30:49,349 --> 00:30:51,476
- They're truly evil.
- Truly-- Okay.
596
00:30:51,476 --> 00:30:54,563
- And killed a lot of our soldiers.
- Certainly not the Iranian people. But--
597
00:30:54,563 --> 00:30:58,275
- No, no, no, no. This is a regime.
- And-And why is Iran that way?
598
00:30:59,318 --> 00:31:01,486
Because in 1953,
599
00:31:01,486 --> 00:31:07,242
the CIA, the United States,
sponsored by British Petroleum,
600
00:31:07,242 --> 00:31:11,038
overthrew the democratically elected
government of Iran
601
00:31:11,038 --> 00:31:12,998
and installed an autocrat,
602
00:31:12,998 --> 00:31:17,461
and that inevitably led to
the Khomeini era.
603
00:31:17,461 --> 00:31:20,088
So my point is,
604
00:31:20,088 --> 00:31:26,803
we are the agents
of a lot of this tumult and instability
605
00:31:26,803 --> 00:31:32,184
in search of cheaper oil,
cheaper goods, cheaper labor.
606
00:31:32,184 --> 00:31:35,062
That's my premise, thesis, only point.
607
00:31:35,729 --> 00:31:38,565
Well, it's a wonderful one.
And it's certainly arguable.
608
00:31:38,565 --> 00:31:41,235
- Um, it doesn't mean that I embrace it.
- [audience laughing]
609
00:31:41,235 --> 00:31:43,570
You-- You will embrace it, sir.
610
00:31:43,570 --> 00:31:45,822
- I believe in you.
- You will hold me here until--
611
00:31:45,822 --> 00:31:48,534
But does that resonate with you
in any way?
612
00:31:48,534 --> 00:31:49,618
Sure.
613
00:31:49,618 --> 00:31:52,037
Look, we've made tons of mistakes
over the years.
614
00:31:52,037 --> 00:31:54,206
Um, think about the Bay of Pigs.
615
00:31:54,206 --> 00:31:56,917
I mean, think about all the interventions
in Central America.
616
00:31:56,917 --> 00:31:59,127
When has it gone right,
as a matter of fact?
617
00:31:59,127 --> 00:32:02,798
Oh, I think there's a number of cases
where our intervention's gone right.
618
00:32:02,798 --> 00:32:05,926
I'd like to think that what we did
in South Korea was--
619
00:32:05,926 --> 00:32:07,970
was quite admirable and noble.
620
00:32:07,970 --> 00:32:10,097
And look how South Korea has turned out.
621
00:32:10,597 --> 00:32:14,768
I'd like to think that what we did
in World War II did actually, um--
622
00:32:14,768 --> 00:32:17,646
Right. But if we've got to go back
to the '40s and the '50s,
623
00:32:17,646 --> 00:32:19,731
- we're in trouble.
- No. I think-- The Gulf War.
624
00:32:19,731 --> 00:32:20,816
I think, again, there have--
625
00:32:20,816 --> 00:32:23,944
I'm not suggesting
you never utilize the power.
626
00:32:23,944 --> 00:32:29,116
I'm suggesting that we have been cavalier
in some of these.
627
00:32:29,116 --> 00:32:30,409
The question is, again,
628
00:32:30,409 --> 00:32:34,121
"Okay, got it. Understand.
What do we do about it?"
629
00:32:34,705 --> 00:32:38,166
And then you come back
to those five foreign policy objectives.
630
00:32:38,166 --> 00:32:41,211
- Yes.
- And how do you achieve those, um--
631
00:32:41,211 --> 00:32:43,505
And how not to create
the other problems around it.
632
00:32:43,505 --> 00:32:44,798
- [chuckles] Exactly right.
- Right.
633
00:32:45,382 --> 00:32:46,466
- Thank you, sir.
- Great to be with you.
634
00:32:47,050 --> 00:32:48,760
[audience cheering, applauding]
635
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,012
All right!
636
00:32:52,222 --> 00:32:53,557
Can I tell you something?
637
00:32:53,557 --> 00:32:56,476
First of all, uh, that's our show.
Thank you very much.
638
00:32:56,476 --> 00:32:58,937
Almost more alarming to me
639
00:32:58,937 --> 00:33:02,566
than, uh, th-the cavalier nature
of America's foreign policy,
640
00:33:02,566 --> 00:33:07,529
is to see a retired general
in a sleeveless fleece.
641
00:33:07,529 --> 00:33:09,448
[audience laughing]
642
00:33:13,660 --> 00:33:16,121
You know, you're not--
You're not gonna catch Patton...
643
00:33:19,750 --> 00:33:22,503
{\an8}Anyway, for more resources,
go to our website,
644
00:33:23,253 --> 00:33:24,254
{\an8}ya fuckers.
645
00:33:25,506 --> 00:33:26,924
{\an8}That'll take you to another website,
646
00:33:26,924 --> 00:33:29,009
{\an8}and then you might find
your life's true purpose.
647
00:33:29,009 --> 00:33:33,388
{\an8}Also, I have a podcast where I do
mostly the hits from the '80s and '90s.
648
00:33:33,388 --> 00:33:38,227
{\an8}Anyway, here it is:
one final "for fuck's sake."
649
00:33:38,227 --> 00:33:41,438
It's apparently an F-35's bar mitzvah.
650
00:33:41,980 --> 00:33:43,857
[electronic dance music playing]
651
00:33:58,789 --> 00:33:59,623
[music stops]