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Tonight, we have a cancel culture
in this country.
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It's our criminal justice system.
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America has a higher rate of incarceration
per capita than Australia,
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a literal prison colony.
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If you have a felony conviction,
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you are banned from health care
and from real estate.
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For life. My soul can be redeemed,
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but that record stays there for life.
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You want reform
and you want to be progressive--
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I want public safety.
I want real public safety.
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I want people to feel safe.
It's about your own self-interest.
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Welcome!
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Thank you. My name is Jon Stewart.
Welcome to the program.
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Tonight: cancel culture.
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What is happening to us?
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It's like you can't even call women
in your office "sugar tits" anymore...
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without some Karen saying,
"I don't care for that."
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But you know what?
You can't just throw people away.
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Although some of our politicians
are urging us to do just that.
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{\an8}We've got to patrol the streets,
we've got to arrest people,
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{\an8}prosecute them and put them in jail.
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{\an8}You have to lock them up.
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{\an8}I don't care about social justice.
I only care about real justice.
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{\an8}You commit a crime, you go to jail.
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You know what's weird?
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No matter how much she has to say,
she does it in one breath.
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I believe she has gills.
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Yeah. We have a cancel culture
in this country.
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It's our criminal justice system,
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a vicious cycle where even
minor offenses can snowball
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into a life sentence of misery.
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Right now, America has about
two million people locked up
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and none of them
caused the 2008 financial crisis.
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For some perspective,
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it is a higher rate of incarceration
per capita than England, France--
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It's four times the rate in Australia,
a literal prison colony.
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It's ten times the rate per capita
of the Dutch,
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the thieving Dutch.
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Those clog-wearing motherfuckers
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will steal the tulips right out
from under your...
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Even the current axis
of authoritarian states,
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China, Saudi Arabia, Russia,
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we outstrip all of them.
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We've jailed more than three times
the people per capita than Saudi Arabia,
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a country that just decided
it was okay for women to drive,
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but not to the bikini store.
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Up to one in three Americans
has a criminal record.
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Look to your left.
Do it in the audience, right now.
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Look to your left. Look to your right.
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Both of those people are cops.
You're going to jail.
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I'm sorry. That's--
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Thank you for coming tonight, but...
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Look, to be fair, there are reasons
to incarcerate individuals
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who present a danger to society.
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In fact, why don't we hear
a danger to society tell us about it.
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{\an8}Out of control criminals.
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{\an8}Predators and murderers.
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{\an8}Gun-toting thugs.
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{\an8}Urban gang members
dealing drugs and killing.
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{\an8}...a man literally defecating on the street
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{\an8}in front of people
who are sitting at a restaurant.
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Hey, hey, hey!
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You don't have to bring
James Corden into this.
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I didn't say which one he was in that.
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But with that two million number
are many low level offenses,
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and there are also over 400,000 people
who haven't even been convicted.
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Most are stuck behind bars
because they don't have money for bail.
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In other words, poor people.
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It seems getting arrested
is less about penal code
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and more about zip code and tax code.
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Take a look at this graph,
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which was more than likely very helpful
until whoever made it sneezed.
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Here's what it shows.
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Rich neighborhoods, less jail.
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Poor neighborhoods, more jail.
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And then of course,
if you do this right here.
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Boom. Boom!
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Yeah!
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Sorry.
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And thus...
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"The Problem with Incarceration."
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America's bondage fetish
occurs at the intersection
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of Unquenchable Thirst
for Punishment Avenue
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and Unforgiving Entrenched Poverty Lane,
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which is actually in Tribeca,
which is shocking.
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I...
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We love our gated communities.
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Make no mistake about it.
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The vast majority of
incarcerated people are poor.
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And in prison, they get poorer.
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Rather than rehabilitating people,
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in prison they're somehow
charged for rent, restitution,
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public defender fees
and mental health assessments.
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The average amount of money people owe
when they're released from prison
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is $13,000.
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One formerly incarcerated woman
owed over $80,000
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for a two-and-a-half-year stay.
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Where did she go to prison? Brown?
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Dartmouth?
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So, apparently, the first thing you're
gonna need when you leave prison
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is a good job, which is tough,
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because having a criminal conviction
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is one of the biggest obstacles
to getting a job.
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If you say-- They ask you, "Have you
ever been arrested for a felony?"
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And you say yes,
guess what happens to your application?
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They file it in the trash.
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You owe a lot of money,
but you can't get a job
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because having a criminal record
is not the best résumé builder.
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And while you do pick up skills
and certifications in prison,
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those skills don't exactly count
as AP credit in the outside world.
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So poor people incarcerated
on minor offenses
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become trapped in a downward spiral,
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which means the system
is working as designed.
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{\an8}If you just let smaller infractions go,
they just get bigger and bigger.
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{\an8}If you allow "nonviolent crimes"
or crimes that are not as "serious"
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{\an8}to go undeterred or unpunished,
they turn into bigger crimes.
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{\an8}You don't put up with the small stuff,
'cause if you let the small stuff go,
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{\an8}then they're gonna try for the big stuff.
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{\an8}And then once they get away with that,
all hell's gonna break loose.
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So true.
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You know who started out
jumping turnstiles?
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Hitler.
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If only the Jews had charged him
for rides.
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You gotta crack down on shoplifting,
you gotta crack down on smoking pot.
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You gotta crack down on resisting arrest
or we don't have a society.
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{\an8}I have to tell you,
when I was 12 years old, I shoplifted.
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{\an8}- I got caught shoplifting at a Kmart.
- What?
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{\an8}I did, I shoplifted a little bit
when I was a kid.
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{\an8}- I shoplifted a couple of times.
- Everybody has shoplifted. Let's face it.
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{\an8}Almost one in every four kids
ends up at the emergency room
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{\an8}thinking they were going to die
because they smoked weed.
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{\an8}- No, Greg. Only you.
- I'm one of those kids.
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{\an8}One time as a teenager
I ran from the police
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{\an8}- because I was drinking.
- That's cool.
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{\an8}That's-- Everybody does that.
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Everybody does do that,
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but not everybody pays the fucking price.
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Like turnstile jumping.
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If you're poor and Black,
turnstile jumping can land you in jail.
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But for other people...
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- Ho, ho, ho!
- Ho, ho, ho!
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Wow. Turns out white men can jump.
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Hey, man, let's do drugs.
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Smoking weed in the park
with your friends in the city?
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You're busted. That's a crime.
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Suburban kids, who clearly smoke
the same amount of drugs?
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Yeah, that's not a crime
so much as it is That '70s Show.
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And God forbid you skip school.
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I had the handcuffs.
The handcuffs was chained around my waist.
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And it had a lock on it, like I was going
to break loose and kill somebody.
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I'm 15 years old and I'm in here
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basically for skipping school.
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What does that look like
in a different zip code?
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Oh, Ferris.
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I love that crazy little bitch.
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But he literally hijacked
a fucking parade float.
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Take a look at this.
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{\an8}- Your Honor.
- May I...
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{\an8}...address the court?
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{\an8}- I have done...
- ...terrible things.
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{\an8}I've made mistakes in the past.
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{\an8}Crazy stuff. Gangs.
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{\an8}I smoked marijuana.
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{\an8}Illegitimate children.
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{\an8}- I personally have...
- ...robbed banks.
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{\an8}- I've done all sorts of...
- ...corruption.
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{\an8}Fights on boats in Rhode Island.
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{\an8}- And every once in a while, I...
- ...killed a lot of people.
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{\an8}- But because I was a...
- ...rich, white...
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{\an8}- ...suburban teen...
- ...I never had to face...
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{\an8}- ...a single consequence...
- ...of my actions.
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{\an8}- If I was poor...
- ...or God forbid...
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{\an8}...Black or brown...
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{\an8}- ...any one of those things...
- ...would have been...
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{\an8}...the end of my life.
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{\an8}- And I just want to thank you for...
- ...keeping me out of jail.
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{\an8}And, uh, for being that kind of a judge...
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{\an8}- ...uh, because now I am...
- ...a US Senator...
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{\an8}...a Supreme Court justice...
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{\an8}...President of the United States...
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{\an8}- ...and it's all...
- ...thanks to you.
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All right.
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We're gonna dig into this
a little bit more.
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{\an8}And we're joined by Mark Shervington.
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{\an8}He's an organizer with the Release
Aging People in Prison campaign,
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{\an8}working to end mass incarceration
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{\an8}and promote racial justice
by reforming the parole system.
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{\an8}We've got Jay Jordan, the CEO
of Alliance for Safety and Justice
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{\an8}and national director
of the TimeDone campaign,
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{\an8}which organizes people
living with past conviction records
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{\an8}to eliminate the barriers
blocking them from success.
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{\an8}And we have Larry Krasner,
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{\an8}who is the district attorney
of Philadelphia.
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First, Larry, fuck the Eagles.
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All right. Second.
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That's a terrible way
to start this, isn't it?
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You are the DA of Philadelphia.
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Can you talk a little bit
about this street-to-jail pipeline?
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So, you know,
what has happened in our society is,
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even at the level of the laws we pass,
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the entire system has been oriented
towards arresting, incarcerating,
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and destroying the futures
of broke people,
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Black people and brown people.
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The reason that we cannot put in jail
producers of opioids
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is because our criminal laws are written
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so that we cannot hold the people
who destroy the economy
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and who destroy our health
with things like opioids responsible,
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but we can catch a homeless person
for stealing food
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and put 'em in jail for a long time.
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We have some very basic
structural problems
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that just have to be changed.
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And Jay, you know,
having experienced this,
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what does being in that system mean?
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So, in America, there are
about 100 million people with a record.
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Like, let that sink in.
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100 million people in America right now
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00:12:30,250 --> 00:12:32,669
has some sort of arrest or conviction
on their record.
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That's more
than the entire population of Canada.
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They face what is called
collateral consequences.
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These are social, civil
and economic sanctions
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that kick in after you serve your time.
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Seventy percent are lifetime bans,
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and more than half are employment related.
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We're talking about banning people
from entire sectors:
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insurance, real estate, education,
health care, finance.
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If you have a felony conviction,
you are banned from health care
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- and from real estate?
- For life, for life.
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That's just the economic impacts, right?
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The social impacts are even worse.
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I have a record.
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00:13:08,664 --> 00:13:11,708
Twenty years ago,
fresh out of high school,
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was involved with a robbery. Right?
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Did seven years, got out.
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- It's been 11 years since I've been out.
- Right.
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My kid are two and four.
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I'm getting choked up
because this is-- It hits home.
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My kids are two and four.
238
00:13:25,138 --> 00:13:30,227
And we got a schedule
from summer-- for summer school,
239
00:13:30,227 --> 00:13:32,145
and there are field trips on there.
240
00:13:32,145 --> 00:13:36,358
And they said, "What parents want
to chaperone the field trips?"
241
00:13:36,358 --> 00:13:37,818
I can't chaperone these field trips.
242
00:13:39,653 --> 00:13:41,446
My wife is 46 years old, I'm 38.
243
00:13:41,446 --> 00:13:45,617
We want to have a girl,
but it's a high-risk pregnancy.
244
00:13:45,617 --> 00:13:47,619
So I said,
"Hey, let's figure out adoption."
245
00:13:47,619 --> 00:13:49,121
We can never adopt a kid.
246
00:13:51,081 --> 00:13:54,877
I love-- I love the fact
that we live in a country
247
00:13:54,877 --> 00:13:57,754
where we talk about
second chances and redemption
248
00:13:57,754 --> 00:13:59,256
and one nation under a God.
249
00:13:59,256 --> 00:14:01,425
But, like, my soul can be redeemed.
250
00:14:02,050 --> 00:14:05,804
But that record stays there for life.
251
00:14:06,388 --> 00:14:11,977
Mark, you know,
even getting out is a twisted labyrinth.
252
00:14:11,977 --> 00:14:15,314
It's very difficult
going through the parole system.
253
00:14:15,981 --> 00:14:17,774
I experienced that firsthand.
254
00:14:17,774 --> 00:14:19,902
I was incarcerated.
255
00:14:20,652 --> 00:14:23,780
And in case you're wondering,
no, it wasn't for selling Bibles.
256
00:14:23,780 --> 00:14:27,868
As a young man,
my girlfriend was sexually assaulted.
257
00:14:27,868 --> 00:14:31,330
And, I would say, you know, in hindsight,
258
00:14:31,330 --> 00:14:34,708
regretfully, I took someone's life
as a result of that.
259
00:14:35,584 --> 00:14:38,128
Judge sentenced me
to the lowest possible sentence
260
00:14:38,128 --> 00:14:39,880
you could get for murder
in the state of New York,
261
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:41,381
which is 15 years to life.
262
00:14:41,381 --> 00:14:43,800
Meaning after 15 years,
I could be released.
263
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:49,598
The parole board thought differently
and denied me parole nine times.
264
00:14:49,598 --> 00:14:51,350
So that 15 doubled.
265
00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:53,268
I was arrested at 20
and I was released at 50.
266
00:14:53,268 --> 00:14:54,895
- What did they want you to do?
- I don't know.
267
00:14:54,895 --> 00:14:57,147
I had done everything
except walk on water.
268
00:14:57,147 --> 00:14:58,440
They don't want to take a chance.
269
00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,984
And you had completed the programs
within the prison
270
00:15:00,984 --> 00:15:02,528
that they had asked you to complete:
271
00:15:02,528 --> 00:15:04,029
certification programs, educational--
272
00:15:04,029 --> 00:15:06,740
I completed the programs
that they required
273
00:15:06,740 --> 00:15:09,493
and several others voluntarily on my own.
274
00:15:10,118 --> 00:15:13,121
One thing that I noticed
about the prison programs is
275
00:15:13,121 --> 00:15:15,666
the people that I talked to
that had gone through them said,
276
00:15:15,666 --> 00:15:19,086
they told us when you get out,
it's gonna help you get a job.
277
00:15:19,086 --> 00:15:20,712
It's going to give you
all these skill sets.
278
00:15:20,712 --> 00:15:24,007
But the currency
that you develop in prison
279
00:15:24,007 --> 00:15:26,718
can't be spent outside of the prison.
280
00:15:26,718 --> 00:15:29,513
{\an8}Just being in prison itself did nothing.
281
00:15:29,513 --> 00:15:33,642
{\an8}We took the initiative
to redeem and rehabilitate ourselves
282
00:15:33,642 --> 00:15:35,435
to prepare ourselves for release.
283
00:15:35,435 --> 00:15:39,398
What served me best was being mentored
284
00:15:39,398 --> 00:15:45,237
by older folks who help young men
like myself redeem themselves,
285
00:15:45,237 --> 00:15:48,156
and to become assets to ourselves,
families and communities.
286
00:15:48,156 --> 00:15:52,578
Larry, you know, isn't it true
that it's almost impossible
287
00:15:52,578 --> 00:15:56,832
to grant grace to prisoners
in this country politically,
288
00:15:57,749 --> 00:16:03,589
because the outcry from the people--
They expect no blemishes.
289
00:16:03,589 --> 00:16:06,758
They expect that no one who gets out
is going to come back in,
290
00:16:06,758 --> 00:16:08,927
and if they do, it's your fault.
291
00:16:08,927 --> 00:16:10,512
Yeah, it's a little bit like saying,
292
00:16:10,512 --> 00:16:15,058
"Well, the person who runs the hospital
has got to go because somebody died."
293
00:16:15,058 --> 00:16:17,227
I mean, it's just a completely
unrealistic approach.
294
00:16:17,227 --> 00:16:21,148
What we're supposed to be doing
is managing risk, increasing safety.
295
00:16:21,148 --> 00:16:24,443
{\an8}No, not every single person
is gonna have a perfect outcome.
296
00:16:24,443 --> 00:16:27,779
{\an8}The truth is the polity--
policies we've been following
297
00:16:27,779 --> 00:16:31,116
{\an8}for all these years, when we became
the most incarcerated country,
298
00:16:31,116 --> 00:16:32,201
are terrible.
299
00:16:32,201 --> 00:16:34,578
We don't have a public safety system
in America.
300
00:16:34,578 --> 00:16:36,288
We have a crime response system.
301
00:16:36,788 --> 00:16:39,833
{\an8}- We spend $266 billion...
- Yeah.
302
00:16:39,833 --> 00:16:44,129
{\an8}...$266 billion fucking dollars
on responding to crime.
303
00:16:44,129 --> 00:16:45,631
{\an8}We're not protecting people.
304
00:16:45,631 --> 00:16:47,966
When somebody commits a crime,
we have DAs.
305
00:16:47,966 --> 00:16:49,551
When somebody commits a crime,
we have police.
306
00:16:49,551 --> 00:16:52,930
When somebody commits a crime,
we have jails, prisons, probation, parole.
307
00:16:52,930 --> 00:16:56,225
All your tax dollars are going to respond
to crime.
308
00:16:56,225 --> 00:16:58,769
So when you hear people talk
about public safety,
309
00:16:58,769 --> 00:17:01,396
and why do you have folks defecating
on the side of the road,
310
00:17:01,396 --> 00:17:02,898
or people with mental illness,
311
00:17:02,898 --> 00:17:06,108
or people with substance
abuse issues that need help,
312
00:17:06,777 --> 00:17:09,112
the only response we have
is government saying,
313
00:17:09,112 --> 00:17:10,781
"Well, let's just put them
in our bureaucracies."
314
00:17:10,781 --> 00:17:13,075
You're put in a worse position
getting out of prison.
315
00:17:13,075 --> 00:17:15,786
Now, four out of five landlords
do background checks,
316
00:17:15,786 --> 00:17:18,622
and nine out of ten private employers
do background checks.
317
00:17:18,622 --> 00:17:20,123
So, what are we saying?
318
00:17:20,123 --> 00:17:24,586
We're saying that if you have a record
in America, and you try to go get a house,
319
00:17:24,586 --> 00:17:27,756
rent a home, you can't rent anywhere.
320
00:17:27,756 --> 00:17:31,093
So you're aggregated
to the same areas as everybody else.
321
00:17:31,093 --> 00:17:32,594
Predatory lending,
322
00:17:32,594 --> 00:17:34,388
buy here, pay here loans,
323
00:17:34,388 --> 00:17:36,473
buy here, pay here car lots,
324
00:17:36,473 --> 00:17:38,100
bail bonds, right?
325
00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:40,853
- We're working these low wage jobs.
- Now you're trapped.
326
00:17:40,853 --> 00:17:42,938
Exactly, so now you're trapped
in what we call,
327
00:17:42,938 --> 00:17:44,982
"post-conviction poverty."
328
00:17:45,941 --> 00:17:48,819
Larry, you know, if you think
about critics of the system,
329
00:17:48,819 --> 00:17:52,197
you look at the last election,
every commercial that was run
330
00:17:52,197 --> 00:17:54,658
was about the chaos
and violence in the streets.
331
00:17:54,658 --> 00:17:56,326
Yeah, and they were all politically wrong.
332
00:17:56,326 --> 00:17:58,036
- Understood...
- The fact is that didn't work--
333
00:17:58,036 --> 00:18:00,330
...but it's not about being wrong,
it's about being effective
334
00:18:00,330 --> 00:18:02,332
and they scared the shit out
of New Yorkers,
335
00:18:02,332 --> 00:18:04,918
and almost pulled off an historic upset.
336
00:18:04,918 --> 00:18:08,213
And they totally failed in Pennsylvania.
They totally failed in many other places.
337
00:18:08,213 --> 00:18:10,382
So this is not a successful strategy.
338
00:18:10,382 --> 00:18:13,093
And, frankly, the longer
the mainstream Democratic Party,
339
00:18:13,093 --> 00:18:16,096
the longer they push
criminal justice reform away,
340
00:18:16,096 --> 00:18:18,682
the more endangered our democracy's
gonna be.
341
00:18:18,682 --> 00:18:21,476
For you two having been in the system
342
00:18:21,476 --> 00:18:24,271
and survived, and thrived in spite of it,
343
00:18:24,980 --> 00:18:27,608
what can change within the system
344
00:18:27,608 --> 00:18:31,486
that can actually bring about
more positive outcomes?
345
00:18:32,196 --> 00:18:36,158
{\an8}What could help incarcerated folks
346
00:18:36,158 --> 00:18:39,995
{\an8}is to actually allow them to be treated
and considered
347
00:18:39,995 --> 00:18:42,206
as human beings, to start with.
348
00:18:50,797 --> 00:18:52,216
So, three quick points.
349
00:18:52,216 --> 00:18:57,429
First, we have to elect people
with the intestinal fortitude
350
00:18:57,429 --> 00:18:59,264
to do the right thing, right?
351
00:18:59,264 --> 00:19:00,265
Like, we have to elect...
352
00:19:01,725 --> 00:19:02,809
We have to elect good folks.
353
00:19:02,809 --> 00:19:05,979
Like, you need elected officials to say,
"I'm gonna do the tough work,"
354
00:19:05,979 --> 00:19:09,399
and then we need to be there
when they are undoubtedly
355
00:19:09,399 --> 00:19:10,651
- gonna face backlash.
- Backlash.
356
00:19:10,651 --> 00:19:11,568
We have to be there.
357
00:19:11,568 --> 00:19:14,196
They tried to recall you.
It failed miserably, right?
358
00:19:14,196 --> 00:19:16,740
Because the people, like,
on the ground said,
359
00:19:16,740 --> 00:19:18,575
"You know what,
we're gonna back these politicians up."
360
00:19:18,575 --> 00:19:22,621
Point one. Point two,
the work that we do is about safety.
361
00:19:23,622 --> 00:19:26,375
It's not just the absence of crime
it's the presence of well-being.
362
00:19:26,375 --> 00:19:27,292
Right.
363
00:19:27,292 --> 00:19:30,045
When you think about safety,
just think about it for a minute,
364
00:19:30,045 --> 00:19:31,505
where you felt most safe.
365
00:19:32,047 --> 00:19:34,299
What did it smell like?
What does it taste like?
366
00:19:34,299 --> 00:19:36,468
Aesthetically, what it would look like, right?
367
00:19:37,052 --> 00:19:40,681
No one answering those questions
ever said, police sirens,
368
00:19:40,681 --> 00:19:42,808
jail, prison, probation, parole.
369
00:19:42,808 --> 00:19:45,519
No, you're like,
"Backyard barbecues with my nana."
370
00:19:45,519 --> 00:19:46,812
You know what I mean?
371
00:19:47,312 --> 00:19:50,524
But we don't have a system
that's rooted in shared safety.
372
00:19:50,524 --> 00:19:51,817
We have a crime response system.
373
00:19:51,817 --> 00:19:55,362
So if we truly want to stop the guy
from defecating on the side of the street,
374
00:19:55,362 --> 00:19:57,614
don't put handcuffs,
put your arm around him and said,
375
00:19:57,614 --> 00:20:00,033
"What do you need?" A continuum of care.
376
00:20:00,033 --> 00:20:01,660
- Last point.
377
00:20:02,411 --> 00:20:04,663
- Wow.
- Last point, last point.
378
00:20:04,663 --> 00:20:07,749
There are 100 million people
in this country
379
00:20:07,749 --> 00:20:09,168
that have a criminal record.
380
00:20:09,168 --> 00:20:11,086
There's 100 million of us, here.
381
00:20:11,086 --> 00:20:13,797
We've served our time,
we paid our debt to society,
382
00:20:13,797 --> 00:20:17,092
and we're facing 40,000
legal restrictions.
383
00:20:17,092 --> 00:20:18,677
When will my sentence end?
384
00:20:18,677 --> 00:20:21,471
If my time is done,
my sentence should be complete.
385
00:20:21,471 --> 00:20:24,183
Whether it's two years, three years,
four years, five years,
386
00:20:24,183 --> 00:20:26,768
heck, give me ten years,
at least shield the record
387
00:20:26,768 --> 00:20:28,228
so I can go on with my life.
388
00:20:28,228 --> 00:20:30,939
We have to stop people
from not being able to take care
389
00:20:30,939 --> 00:20:32,024
of themselves and their family.
390
00:20:32,024 --> 00:20:33,317
And that's repairing the harm,
391
00:20:33,317 --> 00:20:36,695
that's passing sunset laws
in every single state.
392
00:20:38,822 --> 00:20:40,866
I can't thank you guys enough.
393
00:20:40,866 --> 00:20:43,911
Mark Shervington, Jay Jordan
and Larry Krasner.
394
00:20:43,911 --> 00:20:45,579
Guys, thank you so much
for joining us today.
395
00:20:45,579 --> 00:20:46,914
Really appreciate it.
396
00:20:51,460 --> 00:20:52,669
Unbelievable.
397
00:20:52,669 --> 00:20:55,422
Well, they spoke earlier about some folks
398
00:20:55,422 --> 00:20:57,549
that are on the vanguard
of trying to fix this problem.
399
00:20:57,549 --> 00:20:59,176
How do we fix incarceration?
400
00:20:59,176 --> 00:21:01,261
Well, we went to talk to the governor
whose state
401
00:21:01,261 --> 00:21:04,348
has the second highest number
of incarcerated people in the country,
402
00:21:04,348 --> 00:21:07,309
and we did it in San Quentin Prison.
403
00:21:07,309 --> 00:21:08,894
It was his idea, not mine.
404
00:21:12,731 --> 00:21:13,815
{\an8}Governor Newsom of California,
405
00:21:13,815 --> 00:21:15,192
{\an8}- thank you for joining us.
- Good to be with you.
406
00:21:15,192 --> 00:21:17,736
{\an8}First thing I want to say
is I was handsome once too,
407
00:21:17,736 --> 00:21:19,571
so don't think that's gonna last forever.
'Cause it's not.
408
00:21:19,571 --> 00:21:20,739
This is coming for you.
409
00:21:20,739 --> 00:21:22,699
- "This is coming..."
- It's coming for you.
410
00:21:22,699 --> 00:21:25,035
- So don't think you're...
- Jesus. Unbelievable.
411
00:21:25,035 --> 00:21:29,414
So, if you had your druthers,
412
00:21:29,414 --> 00:21:33,210
how do you reform America's prison system?
413
00:21:33,210 --> 00:21:36,463
You just have to reform,
I think, a consciousness with the public.
414
00:21:36,463 --> 00:21:38,173
It begins with the public.
415
00:21:38,173 --> 00:21:39,842
We've been conveying fear and anger,
416
00:21:39,842 --> 00:21:42,427
and it's manifested
in terms of recidivism rates
417
00:21:42,427 --> 00:21:44,680
that don't have to persist and exist.
418
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,307
And, so, we have to completely reimagine.
419
00:21:47,307 --> 00:21:51,812
To integrate the outside and the inside
in a much more strategic way.
420
00:21:51,812 --> 00:21:55,065
We've got to look at reentry
with a much longer runway,
421
00:21:55,065 --> 00:21:58,026
and not just dump someone out there
on a bus with a couple of bucks,
422
00:21:58,026 --> 00:22:00,112
going right back to the neighborhood
where it all started.
423
00:22:00,112 --> 00:22:02,197
And all of a sudden within 14 minutes,
424
00:22:02,197 --> 00:22:04,241
they may be back in the old past patterns.
425
00:22:04,241 --> 00:22:06,410
And gotta make sure that happens
before you're released,
426
00:22:06,410 --> 00:22:09,204
and have real programming,
so there's a real handoff.
427
00:22:09,204 --> 00:22:12,082
That's not easy,
but it's absolutely achievable.
428
00:22:12,082 --> 00:22:13,417
This is not that complex.
429
00:22:14,585 --> 00:22:18,714
Yeah, no. Listen, it's all--
it feels very aspirational
430
00:22:19,298 --> 00:22:20,883
and very impractical.
431
00:22:20,883 --> 00:22:24,219
My experience walking inside
of San Quentin
432
00:22:26,346 --> 00:22:27,806
was jarring for a couple of reasons.
433
00:22:27,806 --> 00:22:30,350
We looked at a television program,
434
00:22:30,350 --> 00:22:32,603
you know, guys that were learning
how to edit and doing all that.
435
00:22:32,603 --> 00:22:34,271
- It was fantastic.
- Yeah.
436
00:22:34,271 --> 00:22:36,398
And it was 12 guys,
437
00:22:36,398 --> 00:22:38,901
and you could see the difference
that it made in their lives...
438
00:22:38,901 --> 00:22:41,278
- Yeah. You got it.
- ...but it's artisanal.
439
00:22:41,278 --> 00:22:42,863
The frustration of that experience,
440
00:22:42,863 --> 00:22:45,240
I think for both of us,
is what the hell is wrong with us
441
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,452
when we know that that artisanal program,
if scaled,
442
00:22:48,994 --> 00:22:51,413
would reduce crime rates in this country
profoundly?
443
00:22:51,413 --> 00:22:53,248
We're shutting down San Quentin
as we know it.
444
00:22:53,248 --> 00:22:57,669
San Quentin as a prison, as we know it,
will cease to exist in 2025.
445
00:22:57,669 --> 00:23:00,130
- So this is-- this is shutting down?
- This is shutting down.
446
00:23:00,130 --> 00:23:03,425
This thing is shut down as we know it,
and I'm converting it to
447
00:23:03,425 --> 00:23:06,970
one of the world's, I hope,
preeminent reentry facilities.
448
00:23:06,970 --> 00:23:08,555
We have 500 volunteers here.
449
00:23:08,555 --> 00:23:12,100
We have 1,000 of the 3,200 prisoners here
that are in deep programming,
450
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:13,477
80 different programs.
451
00:23:13,477 --> 00:23:16,647
And we could take it 10x, in terms
of scaling. It's what we're going to do.
452
00:23:16,647 --> 00:23:19,775
But when we walked out of this prison
and you turned around,
453
00:23:19,775 --> 00:23:21,693
and four of the prisoners
were just standing there.
454
00:23:21,693 --> 00:23:24,279
Almost as though
there was an invisible fence.
455
00:23:24,279 --> 00:23:26,073
- Yeah.
- And there was.
456
00:23:26,073 --> 00:23:28,367
Yeah, the same guys who were
walking us around and touring us
457
00:23:28,367 --> 00:23:30,285
couldn't have been--
couldn't have been more gracious.
458
00:23:30,953 --> 00:23:34,957
That yellow line said, "Out of bounds."
459
00:23:34,957 --> 00:23:35,958
Yeah.
460
00:23:35,958 --> 00:23:37,042
And that reminder
461
00:23:37,042 --> 00:23:39,920
- that they live on the moon.
- Yeah.
462
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,257
How do you expect anybody
to walk out of the moon
463
00:23:43,257 --> 00:23:47,135
and adjust with, you know,
200 bucks in their pocket,
464
00:23:47,135 --> 00:23:52,057
no real certificate skills
that matter to the outside population,
465
00:23:52,057 --> 00:23:54,893
a strike against their name
because they're a felon?
466
00:23:56,144 --> 00:24:00,607
I don't understand
how the recidivism rate isn't 90%, truly.
467
00:24:01,608 --> 00:24:04,319
The answer is we got to bring
the community into this environment,
468
00:24:04,319 --> 00:24:06,697
because we're in the homecoming business.
469
00:24:07,322 --> 00:24:08,991
- Again, you may not like it...
- So--
470
00:24:08,991 --> 00:24:12,786
...but folks are heading home everyday
out of these gates.
471
00:24:12,786 --> 00:24:14,413
And how are they heading back?
472
00:24:14,413 --> 00:24:18,000
Do they have a mindset of community,
of empathy, care and collaboration?
473
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,169
Or are they gonna go right back
to their original form?
474
00:24:20,169 --> 00:24:22,254
Listen, most people
that are already out there
475
00:24:22,254 --> 00:24:24,715
don't have a mindset
of community, collaboration,
476
00:24:24,715 --> 00:24:25,883
- and all these other things.
- Yeah.
477
00:24:25,883 --> 00:24:27,301
As I look in here,
478
00:24:27,301 --> 00:24:32,139
programs that are being created
have a currency within this prison,
479
00:24:33,098 --> 00:24:35,309
- but on the outside...
- It's hard. Yeah.
480
00:24:35,893 --> 00:24:37,644
...that money doesn't--
that doesn't mean anything.
481
00:24:37,644 --> 00:24:38,854
And that's the problem.
482
00:24:38,854 --> 00:24:43,233
Are we giving a false hope
to a lot of the prisoners in here?
483
00:24:43,233 --> 00:24:49,031
Because a lot of what they say is,
"What was I doing in there?
484
00:24:49,031 --> 00:24:54,036
I was told the path to redemption
is along this certification process,
485
00:24:54,036 --> 00:24:57,247
and then I got out,
and this is meaningless.
486
00:24:57,247 --> 00:25:00,918
I'm considered a pariah,
and I can't move on with my life."
487
00:25:00,918 --> 00:25:02,169
And the stigma's real,
488
00:25:02,169 --> 00:25:05,506
but I think the stigma,
and the internal shame,
489
00:25:05,506 --> 00:25:07,549
and the internal stigma,
is even more pronounced.
490
00:25:07,549 --> 00:25:10,093
I think-- You heard
from a young man in there.
491
00:25:10,093 --> 00:25:11,845
Says, "I can finally send--"
492
00:25:11,845 --> 00:25:15,390
His name in a byline of the newspaper,
and he sent it to his mom.
493
00:25:15,390 --> 00:25:17,726
It's the first time, he said,
his mom's ever been proud of him.
494
00:25:17,726 --> 00:25:19,895
That's a kid whose mind is stretched now.
495
00:25:19,895 --> 00:25:22,356
It's not about the certificate.
It's not even about the program.
496
00:25:22,356 --> 00:25:23,440
Not for him.
497
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,400
I mean, for the work--
He's gonna get out--
498
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,486
- But what he gets out...
- Right.
499
00:25:27,486 --> 00:25:28,570
...is now, all of a sudden,
500
00:25:28,570 --> 00:25:30,239
he's found something
he never thought he had,
501
00:25:30,239 --> 00:25:33,534
which is some self-respect,
not just self-loathing.
502
00:25:33,534 --> 00:25:36,787
Thinks he might actually be worthy,
and all of a sudden his mind is shifted.
503
00:25:36,787 --> 00:25:39,581
And I see people doing well
on the outside across the spectrum.
504
00:25:39,581 --> 00:25:42,668
I just hired two folks up in Sacramento
that are working in our office
505
00:25:42,668 --> 00:25:44,878
that spent time,
quite literally, right here,
506
00:25:44,878 --> 00:25:46,463
that are doing extraordinary work.
507
00:25:46,463 --> 00:25:53,345
You're talking about changing this
from a factory into something more human.
508
00:25:53,345 --> 00:25:56,974
But you can't treat them as humans
509
00:25:56,974 --> 00:26:02,312
when they live in this alien,
dehumanizing, factory environment.
510
00:26:02,312 --> 00:26:07,693
This system isn't built
to cherish each individual
511
00:26:07,693 --> 00:26:09,778
- and get them to see their own worth.
- No. No.
512
00:26:09,778 --> 00:26:14,074
This is built to keep them from killing
each other while they're in here.
513
00:26:14,074 --> 00:26:16,243
Correct. But as a society, you're right,
514
00:26:16,243 --> 00:26:18,620
we have to actually believe
in the core tenets
515
00:26:18,620 --> 00:26:20,330
- of what we "practice" in our faith.
- Right.
516
00:26:20,330 --> 00:26:22,082
And that's second damn chances.
517
00:26:22,082 --> 00:26:23,250
And redemption.
518
00:26:23,250 --> 00:26:25,377
And the ability to turn your life around.
519
00:26:25,377 --> 00:26:28,463
So let's talk about the parole process
just very quickly.
520
00:26:29,506 --> 00:26:32,050
Within a parole process are
a bunch of people
521
00:26:32,050 --> 00:26:35,470
that are very familiar
with prison culture,
522
00:26:35,470 --> 00:26:40,475
and very few people familiar
with neighborhoods and reintegration.
523
00:26:41,476 --> 00:26:45,022
I deal with 70, 75 paroles
every single week.
524
00:26:45,022 --> 00:26:47,316
Some of my predecessors,
none even bothered to look at them.
525
00:26:47,316 --> 00:26:49,067
They rejected every single one.
526
00:26:49,067 --> 00:26:51,737
They're tough, and they're folks
that are perfect on paper.
527
00:26:51,737 --> 00:26:53,780
You look back and say,
"What the hell did we miss?"
528
00:26:53,780 --> 00:26:57,117
Mary Reese,
you wanted to commute her sentence.
529
00:26:57,117 --> 00:26:59,328
You sent her back to a parole board.
530
00:26:59,328 --> 00:27:02,080
She's been in prison
for a series of burglaries.
531
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,040
Not nothing,
532
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,542
- but clearly not a violent offender.
- Right.
533
00:27:05,542 --> 00:27:07,002
She failed her parole hearing
534
00:27:07,002 --> 00:27:11,423
based on having borrowed,
I think, hair gel from another prisoner,
535
00:27:11,423 --> 00:27:12,508
and some other things.
536
00:27:12,508 --> 00:27:13,884
And on the flip side of it,
537
00:27:13,884 --> 00:27:16,720
you have an offender who was let out
and killed a police officer.
538
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:17,804
Yeah, yeah, recently.
539
00:27:18,847 --> 00:27:20,766
- Devastating. Yeah.
- Devastating.
540
00:27:21,391 --> 00:27:25,395
We have a system
that cannot tell the difference,
541
00:27:25,395 --> 00:27:28,899
and we have a public
that demands certainty.
542
00:27:28,899 --> 00:27:33,111
Yeah, and we still have
the same dungeonous rooms
543
00:27:33,862 --> 00:27:35,989
for those two perpetrators
you just described.
544
00:27:35,989 --> 00:27:37,533
One that's benign.
545
00:27:37,533 --> 00:27:39,576
Not particularly violent,
not particularly problematic.
546
00:27:39,576 --> 00:27:42,496
And others that have every reason
to be considered concerned.
547
00:27:42,496 --> 00:27:44,164
We haven't evolved. There's no innovation.
548
00:27:44,164 --> 00:27:45,123
We talk about reform.
549
00:27:45,123 --> 00:27:47,543
We don't talk about innovation
in the criminal justice system.
550
00:27:47,543 --> 00:27:50,003
I mean, here's the problem
that you run up against,
551
00:27:50,003 --> 00:27:53,757
is in that reimagining,
you run up against political reality.
552
00:27:53,757 --> 00:27:54,842
Simple things like
553
00:27:54,842 --> 00:27:57,511
instead of giving them $200
when they walk out the gate,
554
00:27:57,511 --> 00:27:59,513
giving them $1,000
when they walk out the gate.
555
00:27:59,513 --> 00:28:02,057
And you guys couldn't do that politically.
556
00:28:02,057 --> 00:28:04,726
You vetoed that because,
I imagine, you had to.
557
00:28:04,726 --> 00:28:06,311
Yeah, well, with a combination of that
558
00:28:06,311 --> 00:28:08,188
and we should've done it
through the budget process.
559
00:28:08,188 --> 00:28:10,524
By the way, I know-- I know the realities.
560
00:28:10,524 --> 00:28:13,360
That person
that killed that police officer,
561
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:15,863
the district attorney accused me
562
00:28:15,863 --> 00:28:18,156
- of being responsible for that.
- That's right.
563
00:28:18,156 --> 00:28:19,700
I live the realities, I don't know them.
564
00:28:19,700 --> 00:28:22,160
- It's not intellectual, I'm living them.
- That's right. Sure.
565
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,288
- That's, I mean, that's--
- And that puts you on your heels.
566
00:28:24,288 --> 00:28:26,999
No, it didn't put me on my heels.
Actually, it put me on my toes.
567
00:28:26,999 --> 00:28:28,959
Right. You want reform,
and you want to be progressive--
568
00:28:28,959 --> 00:28:31,086
I want public safety.
I want real public safety.
569
00:28:31,086 --> 00:28:34,756
I want people to feel safe.
It's about your own self-interest.
570
00:28:34,756 --> 00:28:35,674
Right.
571
00:28:35,674 --> 00:28:38,093
You want to make sure
your kids are safe, you're safe.
572
00:28:38,093 --> 00:28:41,597
You don't have to turn your head
when you're getting the ATM machine.
573
00:28:41,597 --> 00:28:46,185
"Abso-fundamentally-lutely,"
that's the core of any real reform.
574
00:28:46,185 --> 00:28:47,769
Now, you were going to say "fuck."
575
00:28:47,769 --> 00:28:49,021
- He was gonna say "fuck."
- I was.
576
00:28:49,021 --> 00:28:51,106
The governor-- the governor--
I want that written down.
577
00:28:51,106 --> 00:28:53,358
- The governor was about to say "fuck."
- I know. Is this cable?
578
00:28:53,358 --> 00:28:55,736
He flipped it to "fundamental",
which I thought was a wise choice.
579
00:28:55,736 --> 00:28:56,945
Yeah, I thought it was wise, too.
580
00:28:56,945 --> 00:29:01,950
Look, is ultimately the incarceration rate
581
00:29:01,950 --> 00:29:04,453
and the recidivism rate
in the United States,
582
00:29:05,495 --> 00:29:11,585
purely a failure of public policy,
or is it a failure of our morality?
583
00:29:11,585 --> 00:29:15,005
I think it's all the above,
but spare me the morality
584
00:29:15,005 --> 00:29:18,967
that somehow these issues
are unique to America.
585
00:29:18,967 --> 00:29:22,346
What is unique to America
is the over-incarceration,
586
00:29:22,346 --> 00:29:25,807
the mass incarceration,
and the deplorable outcomes,
587
00:29:25,807 --> 00:29:28,560
and the guns
that exacerbate these conditions
588
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,395
out on the streets and sidewalks.
589
00:29:30,395 --> 00:29:32,439
So, yes, I think, it goes to your point.
590
00:29:32,439 --> 00:29:33,815
It's morality, sure,
591
00:29:33,815 --> 00:29:38,612
but it's also because we've chosen
an uniquely American way,
592
00:29:38,612 --> 00:29:41,281
we've chosen the conditions
and chosen this reality.
593
00:29:41,281 --> 00:29:44,284
Right.
Well, appreciate you taking the time
594
00:29:44,284 --> 00:29:46,745
- and an eye-opening trip.
- Thank you, sir.
595
00:29:46,745 --> 00:29:47,871
Glad you came out.
596
00:29:47,871 --> 00:29:49,164
- Thanks.
- Thanks, brother.
597
00:29:54,753 --> 00:29:55,838
I gotta say this though,
598
00:29:57,798 --> 00:30:00,926
it looks to me like Gavin Newsom
has vocal cord muscles.
599
00:30:00,926 --> 00:30:02,845
I've never seen that before
in a man's neck.
600
00:30:03,345 --> 00:30:04,346
Just as he's talking,
601
00:30:04,346 --> 00:30:07,224
his head would just go higher,
and higher, and higher. It's tremendous.
602
00:30:07,724 --> 00:30:10,644
{\an8}That's our show.
For more resources, head to our website.
603
00:30:10,644 --> 00:30:14,481
{\an8}It's the only website left
on the entire Internet,
604
00:30:14,481 --> 00:30:15,983
{\an8}so you can't miss it.
605
00:30:15,983 --> 00:30:21,029
{\an8}And we got a weekly podcast
because everyone has a fucking podcast.
606
00:30:28,203 --> 00:30:29,204
And...
607
00:30:30,914 --> 00:30:35,085
And if I may say to the audience tonight,
if you're looking for a podcast producer...
608
00:30:39,965 --> 00:30:42,176
We end tonight
with a final "for fuck's sake."
609
00:30:42,176 --> 00:30:45,554
{\an8}Violent crime is surging in Louisiana.
610
00:30:46,180 --> 00:30:48,182
Woke leaders blame the police.
611
00:30:48,682 --> 00:30:50,184
I blame the criminals.
612
00:30:50,184 --> 00:30:52,644
{\an8}If you hate cops
just because they're cops,
613
00:30:53,145 --> 00:30:56,273
{\an8}the next time you get in trouble,
call a crackhead.