1 00:00:01,127 --> 00:00:02,504 -[Stewart] Check, check. -[Chelsea] Good? 2 00:00:02,587 --> 00:00:04,923 -[Stewart] Microphone check, one, two. -[Chelsea] We're good. Okay. 3 00:00:05,757 --> 00:00:08,927 I saw a video of a Krav Maga woman. 4 00:00:09,010 --> 00:00:11,012 Attackers came at her, she was like… [imitates grunting] 5 00:00:11,096 --> 00:00:12,514 …and they were like, "Krav Maga." 6 00:00:12,597 --> 00:00:14,641 I was like, "I gotta fucking take that class." 7 00:00:14,724 --> 00:00:16,518 -So I signed up for a Krav Maga class. -[woman gasps] 8 00:00:16,601 --> 00:00:21,398 And what I learned is that I've got about seven minutes before I die. 9 00:00:21,481 --> 00:00:22,482 [all laughing] 10 00:00:22,566 --> 00:00:24,025 Which is actually a long time. 11 00:00:24,109 --> 00:00:27,028 It's like-- [stammers] At minute seven, I was like… 12 00:00:27,112 --> 00:00:28,989 [imitates sighing] …I guess they can just-- 13 00:00:29,072 --> 00:00:30,282 Just do what you wanna do. 14 00:00:30,991 --> 00:00:32,826 -[Chelsea] Um… -[woman] You have Atticus. 15 00:00:32,909 --> 00:00:35,161 This dog isn't doing anything. 16 00:00:35,245 --> 00:00:36,246 [laughing] 17 00:00:36,329 --> 00:00:39,291 [Stewart] Atticus and I have been taking a Krav Maga class. 18 00:00:39,374 --> 00:00:41,126 [laughing] 19 00:00:41,209 --> 00:00:42,377 Little paws. [whooshes] 20 00:00:42,460 --> 00:00:44,588 [laughter continues] 21 00:01:19,205 --> 00:01:20,582 [audience cheering] 22 00:01:20,665 --> 00:01:21,666 My goodness. 23 00:01:22,417 --> 00:01:24,336 Oh, my goodness! 24 00:01:24,419 --> 00:01:26,546 [cheering continues] 25 00:01:26,630 --> 00:01:27,631 Welcome. 26 00:01:28,340 --> 00:01:29,925 Let's dive into the program. 27 00:01:30,008 --> 00:01:31,218 Tonight… 28 00:01:31,301 --> 00:01:32,510 [cheering ends] 29 00:01:32,594 --> 00:01:35,305 …we're gonna be talking about something we all know, 30 00:01:35,388 --> 00:01:37,140 but we cannot seem to admit. 31 00:01:37,891 --> 00:01:41,937 America has lost the war on guns. 32 00:01:42,020 --> 00:01:43,063 It's over, people. 33 00:01:43,146 --> 00:01:45,649 [scoffs] What, you-- you don't know that? 34 00:01:45,732 --> 00:01:46,733 [audience chuckles] 35 00:01:46,816 --> 00:01:48,026 We've lost. 36 00:01:48,109 --> 00:01:50,820 How do I know we've lost? Take a look. 37 00:01:50,904 --> 00:01:54,658 Knoxville police have an officer-involved shooting on their hands. 38 00:01:54,741 --> 00:01:57,077 This is a look at the scene earlier today. 39 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,621 Oh, this is live, so they are still, um, this-- 40 00:01:59,704 --> 00:02:01,289 Ah, gotcha. Okay. 41 00:02:02,290 --> 00:02:05,001 It's the-- [chuckles] I forgot about the other shooting. 42 00:02:05,085 --> 00:02:07,546 -[stammering, laughing] -[audience laughs] 43 00:02:07,629 --> 00:02:10,549 "I was talking about that shooting, but it's the other shooting." 44 00:02:11,591 --> 00:02:13,260 That is the amount of carnage 45 00:02:13,343 --> 00:02:16,471 the newscasters are forced to narrate on a daily basis. 46 00:02:16,555 --> 00:02:21,560 An amount where it's possible to forget an entire other mass shooting. 47 00:02:21,643 --> 00:02:25,939 "We are live with the shooting, not-- Oh, right, the other fucking shooting." 48 00:02:26,022 --> 00:02:27,023 [audience chuckles] 49 00:02:27,107 --> 00:02:28,942 It's like when you can't find your glasses 50 00:02:29,025 --> 00:02:31,111 and they've been on your head the whole time. 51 00:02:31,194 --> 00:02:33,697 You think to yourself like, "Ah, fuck!" 52 00:02:33,780 --> 00:02:35,115 [audience chuckles] 53 00:02:35,198 --> 00:02:37,284 Look, this is an easy mistake to make 54 00:02:37,367 --> 00:02:39,452 when we average about 12 mass shootings a week. 55 00:02:39,536 --> 00:02:42,956 And you know what might help that? 56 00:02:43,039 --> 00:02:44,583 We need to arm our teachers. 57 00:02:44,666 --> 00:02:46,793 -[audience chuckles] -Yes. 58 00:02:46,877 --> 00:02:48,169 The solution to school shootings 59 00:02:48,253 --> 00:02:50,964 is apparently strapping up Mr. Langdon from chemistry. 60 00:02:51,047 --> 00:02:53,466 [audience laughs] 61 00:02:53,550 --> 00:02:56,094 Well, that only takes care of school shootings. 62 00:02:56,177 --> 00:02:58,263 What if a shooting happens in a church? 63 00:02:58,346 --> 00:02:59,598 People in church should have guns. 64 00:02:59,681 --> 00:03:03,059 [audience laughs] 65 00:03:03,143 --> 00:03:04,144 Amen? 66 00:03:04,227 --> 00:03:05,562 [audience laughs] 67 00:03:05,645 --> 00:03:09,149 Are there any other professionals whose jobs have nothing to do with guns 68 00:03:09,232 --> 00:03:10,942 or crime that need guns? 69 00:03:11,026 --> 00:03:13,486 I'd say 100% of our pilots ought to be armed. 70 00:03:13,570 --> 00:03:15,322 [audience chuckles] 71 00:03:15,405 --> 00:03:17,949 A hundred percent of our pilots. 72 00:03:18,033 --> 00:03:19,034 Let me tell you something. 73 00:03:19,743 --> 00:03:24,289 That fucking goose wouldn't have dared taken down Captain Sully's plane… 74 00:03:24,372 --> 00:03:26,499 [audience laughs] 75 00:03:26,583 --> 00:03:27,876 …if it knew he was packing. 76 00:03:27,959 --> 00:03:30,462 "I'm tired of these motherfucking unarmed pilots 77 00:03:30,545 --> 00:03:32,088 on these motherfucking planes." 78 00:03:32,172 --> 00:03:35,508 [audience laughs] 79 00:03:35,592 --> 00:03:37,260 I haven't-- Is that quote still relevant? 80 00:03:37,344 --> 00:03:38,678 -Can I still-- -[audience laughs louder] 81 00:03:38,762 --> 00:03:40,263 Is that even useful that quote? 82 00:03:41,389 --> 00:03:42,766 So, yes. 83 00:03:42,849 --> 00:03:44,684 We've lost the war on guns. 84 00:03:44,768 --> 00:03:46,519 Personally, I knew it was over after Sandy Hook. 85 00:03:46,603 --> 00:03:49,189 We had a chance to pick guns or kindergartners, and… 86 00:03:50,398 --> 00:03:51,691 we went with guns. 87 00:03:51,775 --> 00:03:57,155 There are 393 million guns in America, 88 00:03:57,239 --> 00:03:58,782 and I don't want to be judgy, 89 00:03:59,741 --> 00:04:01,576 but I think it's gotten absurd. 90 00:04:01,660 --> 00:04:03,578 [male voice] Hunting season has arrived. 91 00:04:03,662 --> 00:04:06,164 -Diamond hunting season that is. -[gunshots fired] 92 00:04:06,248 --> 00:04:08,124 If you have your sights set on this, 93 00:04:08,208 --> 00:04:10,835 you can get this free from Lee Ann's Fine Jewelry. 94 00:04:10,919 --> 00:04:12,379 [audience laughing] 95 00:04:14,172 --> 00:04:17,216 [audience laughs louder] 96 00:04:17,300 --> 00:04:21,805 -♪ Every kill begins with K ♪ -[audience laughs] 97 00:04:21,888 --> 00:04:23,056 So here-- Oh. 98 00:04:23,139 --> 00:04:26,017 [audience applauds] 99 00:04:27,769 --> 00:04:29,271 I've really missed that. 100 00:04:29,354 --> 00:04:31,398 [audience laughs] 101 00:04:31,481 --> 00:04:32,524 So here's the deal. 102 00:04:34,025 --> 00:04:37,779 The problem with guns is that there's too many of them. 103 00:04:37,862 --> 00:04:42,409 And while research clearly shows mo guns mo deaths, 104 00:04:42,492 --> 00:04:45,412 let's defer to the victors in this war. 105 00:04:46,079 --> 00:04:47,664 Mr. NRA, 106 00:04:47,747 --> 00:04:52,252 do you have any thoughts on how the rest of us could die less? 107 00:04:52,335 --> 00:04:55,797 Lean in. Listen to me now. 108 00:04:57,048 --> 00:04:58,717 -Go on. -[audience laughs] 109 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,720 And never forget these words… 110 00:05:01,803 --> 00:05:04,556 -Spit it out. -[audience laughs] 111 00:05:04,639 --> 00:05:08,727 To stop a bad guy with a gun, 112 00:05:08,810 --> 00:05:12,564 it takes a good guy with a gun. 113 00:05:13,356 --> 00:05:14,691 -[softly] Yes. -[audience chuckles] 114 00:05:14,774 --> 00:05:16,109 Why didn't I think of that? 115 00:05:16,860 --> 00:05:19,070 -Shoot-outs. -[audience chuckles] 116 00:05:19,154 --> 00:05:21,531 One question very quickly: 117 00:05:21,615 --> 00:05:23,909 How can you tell who's a good guy? 118 00:05:24,409 --> 00:05:27,162 [stammers] You know what? Maybe, I guess, just ask them. 119 00:05:27,245 --> 00:05:30,206 I'm sure people are generally honest about that. 120 00:05:30,290 --> 00:05:32,417 -I was a good guy on the street. -[audience laughs] 121 00:05:32,500 --> 00:05:35,420 I'm sure when Bruce gets here, he'll tell you I was always a good guy. 122 00:05:35,503 --> 00:05:38,215 [audience laughs] 123 00:05:43,136 --> 00:05:44,512 O.J. gets a gun. 124 00:05:44,596 --> 00:05:46,431 [audience laughs] 125 00:05:46,514 --> 00:05:48,141 That's probably fine. [chuckles] 126 00:05:49,392 --> 00:05:51,436 Not his weapon of choice… [chuckles] …allegedly. 127 00:05:51,519 --> 00:05:52,896 -[audience groans] -You know-- 128 00:05:52,979 --> 00:05:55,607 [audience laughs] 129 00:05:57,234 --> 00:06:00,278 -Are you taking O.J.'s side? -[audience laughs] 130 00:06:00,362 --> 00:06:02,155 Did that really just happen? 131 00:06:03,281 --> 00:06:05,825 [chuckles] O.J. knife joke and they're like, 132 00:06:05,909 --> 00:06:06,910 "Hey, buddy." 133 00:06:06,993 --> 00:06:09,537 [audience laughs] 134 00:06:09,621 --> 00:06:11,289 "He's paid his dues." 135 00:06:11,790 --> 00:06:14,292 [laughs] 136 00:06:15,669 --> 00:06:18,296 You know what? Actually, they're right. 137 00:06:18,380 --> 00:06:20,632 Doesn't make sense. You know what's probably better? 138 00:06:20,715 --> 00:06:23,009 Uh, don't let somebody tell you themselves. 139 00:06:23,093 --> 00:06:25,095 They're probably gonna lie. References. 140 00:06:25,178 --> 00:06:26,972 'Cause everyone's gonna say they're a good guy. 141 00:06:27,055 --> 00:06:32,602 Maybe you know if a guy is good if a different good guy gives him a vouch. 142 00:06:32,686 --> 00:06:36,314 There's a guy I'd like to really thank here that people don't thank enough, 143 00:06:36,398 --> 00:06:39,901 but there's a kindly, wonderful, gentle man, 144 00:06:39,985 --> 00:06:41,903 um, that we all deeply love. 145 00:06:41,987 --> 00:06:44,281 Uh, his name is Harvey Weinstein. 146 00:06:44,364 --> 00:06:47,951 [audience gasping, laughing] 147 00:06:49,244 --> 00:06:51,329 Harvey Weinstein gets a gun. 148 00:06:52,914 --> 00:06:55,667 You know what? This isn't gonna work. 149 00:06:56,209 --> 00:06:58,587 We're not gonna be able to define good guys, 150 00:06:58,670 --> 00:07:02,632 so let's just focus on maybe keeping guns away from bad guys. 151 00:07:03,133 --> 00:07:06,595 Like terrorists. They shouldn't have guns. 152 00:07:06,678 --> 00:07:08,680 A loophole in federal gun laws 153 00:07:08,763 --> 00:07:12,309 allows suspected terrorists to buy guns here in the US, 154 00:07:12,392 --> 00:07:13,643 and they have. 155 00:07:14,269 --> 00:07:15,270 What the fuck? 156 00:07:16,146 --> 00:07:20,275 If you're on the terrorist watch list, you can have a gun? 157 00:07:20,942 --> 00:07:21,985 Okay. 158 00:07:22,068 --> 00:07:24,613 What about registered sex offenders? 159 00:07:25,447 --> 00:07:28,450 Turns out sex offenders apparently also need guns. 160 00:07:28,533 --> 00:07:32,329 So, we obviously can't agree on who the good guys are, 161 00:07:32,412 --> 00:07:35,165 and we can't seem to agree on who the bad guys are. 162 00:07:35,707 --> 00:07:37,500 So what are we supposed to do here? 163 00:07:37,584 --> 00:07:40,837 It's not a sci-fi Tom Cruise movie where we have some magical premonition 164 00:07:40,921 --> 00:07:43,298 of which bad guys are about to commit a violent crime 165 00:07:43,381 --> 00:07:46,051 and can intervene in the crime before it's too late. 166 00:07:47,427 --> 00:07:48,595 Or is it? 167 00:07:48,678 --> 00:07:52,933 It appears a domestic dispute led to the massacre at a Texas church 168 00:07:53,016 --> 00:07:55,477 that left at least 26 people dead. 169 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,688 The gunman, Devin Kelley, had a history of domestic violence. 170 00:07:58,772 --> 00:08:00,857 The GOP shooting at the baseball diamond-- 171 00:08:00,941 --> 00:08:02,859 He had a history of domestic violence. 172 00:08:02,943 --> 00:08:05,237 Reports of domestic abuse, domestic violence. 173 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,280 …domestic violence complaints against him… 174 00:08:07,364 --> 00:08:08,949 …and an allegation of domestic violence. 175 00:08:09,032 --> 00:08:10,325 …history of domestic violence… 176 00:08:10,408 --> 00:08:12,369 Six arrests for domestic violence. 177 00:08:12,452 --> 00:08:14,537 -…domestic violence… -…domestic violence… 178 00:08:14,621 --> 00:08:18,375 Twenty years old, and already has a domestic violence history. 179 00:08:19,751 --> 00:08:22,921 Domestic violence offenders. 180 00:08:23,004 --> 00:08:27,425 It turns out domestic violence is a predictor for gun violence. 181 00:08:27,509 --> 00:08:30,679 In fact, there's a study that suggests, "A felony domestic violence conviction 182 00:08:30,762 --> 00:08:35,683 is the single greatest predictor of future violent crime among men." 183 00:08:35,767 --> 00:08:38,270 This is our sci-fi movie fix. 184 00:08:38,352 --> 00:08:41,356 'Cause if we simply kept guns away from domestic violence offenders, 185 00:08:41,438 --> 00:08:46,194 we could potentially stop 60% of mass shootings. 186 00:08:46,278 --> 00:08:48,780 Thirty percent of child firearm deaths. 187 00:08:48,863 --> 00:08:50,824 More than 50% of women-- 188 00:08:50,907 --> 00:08:53,118 Sixty-five percent. Seventy-five-- 189 00:08:53,201 --> 00:08:55,328 [stammers] Okay, I'm sorry. Fuckload. 190 00:08:55,412 --> 00:08:57,330 [audience laughs] 191 00:08:57,414 --> 00:09:01,877 Every 14 hours an American woman is shot dead by an intimate partner. 192 00:09:02,878 --> 00:09:05,088 And you might not care about any of that. 193 00:09:05,171 --> 00:09:09,301 And if you're the type of person who doesn't care about any of that, 194 00:09:09,384 --> 00:09:12,137 I do think I know an area that may speak to you more. 195 00:09:12,637 --> 00:09:16,141 Two police officers shot and killed responding to a domestic violence call. 196 00:09:16,224 --> 00:09:20,770 A rookie police officer was gunned down responding to a domestic violence call. 197 00:09:20,854 --> 00:09:24,024 …shot and killed early this morning responding to a domestic violence call. 198 00:09:24,107 --> 00:09:27,068 …shot and killed while responding to a domestic violence call. 199 00:09:27,152 --> 00:09:29,195 …responding to a domestic violence call. 200 00:09:29,279 --> 00:09:31,281 …shot and killed in the line of duty. 201 00:09:31,364 --> 00:09:34,075 They were reportedly responding to a domestic violence call. 202 00:09:34,159 --> 00:09:37,704 It turns out removing guns from domestic violence offenders 203 00:09:37,787 --> 00:09:39,623 also backs the blue. 204 00:09:40,206 --> 00:09:41,666 Between 2015 and 2016, 205 00:09:41,750 --> 00:09:46,421 domestic dispute calls made up 41% of all fatal police calls. 206 00:09:46,504 --> 00:09:48,340 For police, domestic violence calls 207 00:09:48,423 --> 00:09:52,219 are the single most dangerous calls that they respond to. 208 00:09:52,302 --> 00:09:55,639 So why are we letting these wife-beating cop killers 209 00:09:55,722 --> 00:09:57,807 get away with literal mass murder? 210 00:09:58,516 --> 00:10:00,518 And why is the Lifetime channel the only network 211 00:10:00,602 --> 00:10:02,771 covering this phenomenon 24 hours a day? 212 00:10:02,854 --> 00:10:05,190 [audience laughing] 213 00:10:07,108 --> 00:10:10,028 Oh, Tiffani Amber Thiessen, I hope you get out. 214 00:10:10,111 --> 00:10:12,572 [audience laughing] 215 00:10:15,867 --> 00:10:18,286 You guys saw that one too, right? It was-- you know. 216 00:10:18,370 --> 00:10:19,955 It's entertaining, but I saw it coming. 217 00:10:21,081 --> 00:10:24,000 We treat domestic violence like it's a tampon commercial. 218 00:10:24,084 --> 00:10:25,293 "Ignore the blood. 219 00:10:25,377 --> 00:10:28,004 Pay attention to the dancing women in the white shorts. 220 00:10:28,088 --> 00:10:29,798 They're smiling. It's springtime. 221 00:10:29,881 --> 00:10:31,633 Everything's fine!" 222 00:10:31,716 --> 00:10:33,009 [audience laughs] 223 00:10:33,093 --> 00:10:34,636 By the way, the law already says 224 00:10:34,719 --> 00:10:36,763 domestic violence offenders can't have guns. 225 00:10:36,846 --> 00:10:38,974 If we just enforced that law, 226 00:10:39,057 --> 00:10:41,309 we would prevent other types of gun violence, 227 00:10:41,393 --> 00:10:44,312 the kind that actually makes the news. 228 00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:49,526 It's not a solution, but it's a real harm reduction model for gun violence. 229 00:10:49,609 --> 00:10:52,070 Unless, of course, uh… 230 00:10:52,153 --> 00:10:55,407 Mr. NRA, you have a better solution on the table? 231 00:10:55,490 --> 00:10:57,826 Arm America's women. 232 00:10:58,743 --> 00:11:00,161 Uh, go fuck yourself. 233 00:11:00,245 --> 00:11:01,830 [audience laughing] 234 00:11:01,913 --> 00:11:03,665 -[beep] -[projector clicking] 235 00:11:06,418 --> 00:11:09,921 Hey, guys. It's your old pal Uncle Glock here, 236 00:11:10,005 --> 00:11:12,340 and I want to talk to you about safety, 237 00:11:12,424 --> 00:11:15,886 and the scourge that is domestic violence. 238 00:11:15,969 --> 00:11:19,598 Did you know because of the curse of domestic violence, 239 00:11:19,681 --> 00:11:23,351 you could lose custody… of me? 240 00:11:23,894 --> 00:11:27,272 Every day, because of the evils of our judicial overlords, 241 00:11:27,355 --> 00:11:31,401 countless innocent guns are in jeopardy. 242 00:11:31,484 --> 00:11:36,114 Never again will they shoot a bullet into the sky just for funsies. 243 00:11:36,197 --> 00:11:39,743 They'll never get pulled out at a party to impress a cool new friend. 244 00:11:39,826 --> 00:11:45,498 Some of these guns will never get to be in a prom photo with your daughter's date. 245 00:11:45,582 --> 00:11:46,583 So I beg you, 246 00:11:46,666 --> 00:11:51,171 the next time your significant other just won't fucking listen, 247 00:11:51,254 --> 00:11:53,340 I'm telling you, take a breath. 248 00:11:53,423 --> 00:11:57,177 Just fucking take-- Just calm the fuck down! 249 00:11:58,386 --> 00:11:59,721 For the guns. 250 00:12:00,889 --> 00:12:02,557 Can't you think of the guns? 251 00:12:03,266 --> 00:12:04,434 [fanfare plays] 252 00:12:04,517 --> 00:12:05,560 [gunshot] 253 00:12:10,398 --> 00:12:12,108 [Chelsea] This is my dream episode 254 00:12:12,192 --> 00:12:17,072 because, uh, because I didn't like-- because I lived it. 'Cause I lived it. 255 00:12:17,739 --> 00:12:19,616 When we read the stats, I'm always like, 256 00:12:20,533 --> 00:12:21,868 "Hmm, that's me." [chuckles] 257 00:12:21,952 --> 00:12:23,620 Like I'm the statistic. 258 00:12:23,703 --> 00:12:27,832 But the other really important thing around gun violence and domestic violence 259 00:12:27,916 --> 00:12:29,542 is that people are always-- 260 00:12:29,626 --> 00:12:32,295 There's, like, shame and silence, and so then, nothing can move forward. 261 00:12:32,379 --> 00:12:36,049 You can't get the proper statistics, and so the only way to combat that 262 00:12:36,132 --> 00:12:40,470 is to talk about it, make hot content about it, 263 00:12:40,554 --> 00:12:41,721 -and… -Hot content, baby! 264 00:12:41,805 --> 00:12:42,806 -[woman] …that's right! -[laughing] 265 00:12:42,889 --> 00:12:44,808 And make jokes about it. 266 00:12:44,891 --> 00:12:47,894 [audience applauds] 267 00:12:47,978 --> 00:12:50,105 Okay. Welcome back. 268 00:12:51,356 --> 00:12:54,442 We're gonna begin our discussion with great news. 269 00:12:54,526 --> 00:12:57,028 Congress has passed a bipartisan law 270 00:12:57,112 --> 00:13:00,365 that prevents domestic violence offenders from having guns. 271 00:13:00,448 --> 00:13:03,702 The bad news is it hasn't been updated since 1996 272 00:13:03,785 --> 00:13:05,328 and it contains dangerous loopholes. 273 00:13:05,412 --> 00:13:09,124 Not only that, but it's often up to state and local communities 274 00:13:09,207 --> 00:13:12,919 to enforce these existing laws, which isn't always happening. 275 00:13:13,003 --> 00:13:15,547 And to help understand why, we're going to have, joining us today, 276 00:13:15,630 --> 00:13:16,965 April Ross. 277 00:13:17,048 --> 00:13:19,175 She is a survivor, attorney, 278 00:13:19,259 --> 00:13:21,344 and domestic violence and firearms advocate. 279 00:13:21,428 --> 00:13:23,930 And Janet Paulsen, also a survivor 280 00:13:24,014 --> 00:13:26,057 and an advocate who came to know April 281 00:13:26,141 --> 00:13:29,227 when they were both in a physical rehab center. 282 00:13:29,311 --> 00:13:32,397 Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us. 283 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:33,648 [audience applauding] 284 00:13:33,732 --> 00:13:34,816 Uh… 285 00:13:36,151 --> 00:13:37,360 April. 286 00:13:38,361 --> 00:13:42,157 Uh, tell us a little bit about your story 287 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,994 and how you came to be an advocate, uh, for this kind of legislation. 288 00:13:47,037 --> 00:13:51,166 I met my, uh, husband, uh, when I was in high school. 289 00:13:51,249 --> 00:13:55,754 We dated off and on for roughly 15 years. Um… 290 00:13:55,837 --> 00:13:59,633 I mean, he was always unfaithful. He was always with multiple women. 291 00:14:00,300 --> 00:14:02,969 So January 2014, I moved out. 292 00:14:03,053 --> 00:14:04,346 I moved in with my parents. 293 00:14:04,429 --> 00:14:06,514 He always told me once we got married 294 00:14:06,598 --> 00:14:08,808 that there was only one way out of a marriage, 295 00:14:08,892 --> 00:14:10,185 and that was in the grave. 296 00:14:10,268 --> 00:14:12,479 -He had told you that? -Yes, many times. 297 00:14:13,188 --> 00:14:17,484 It made me nervous enough that I went to work and I told our investigator, 298 00:14:17,567 --> 00:14:22,197 the paralegal, and one of the attorneys that was working on the-- the trial team 299 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,115 that I was working on at the time. 300 00:14:24,199 --> 00:14:28,203 They then suggested that I go and get a temporary protective order. 301 00:14:28,912 --> 00:14:32,207 And I thought about it, but I decided against it. 302 00:14:32,290 --> 00:14:36,586 As a person who had helped many, uh, victims and survivors 303 00:14:36,670 --> 00:14:39,548 get protective orders over the years, 304 00:14:39,631 --> 00:14:42,259 I thought I knew what domestic violence was. 305 00:14:42,342 --> 00:14:44,427 He wasn't physically abusing me. 306 00:14:45,136 --> 00:14:47,055 But there was financial abuse, 307 00:14:47,889 --> 00:14:49,975 psychological and emotional abuse. 308 00:14:50,475 --> 00:14:51,851 -Right. -But… 309 00:14:51,935 --> 00:14:54,437 He pretended to cooperate with me. 310 00:14:54,521 --> 00:14:55,981 He was gonna get the house. 311 00:14:56,064 --> 00:14:58,692 Um, he was gonna get half of our joint account. 312 00:14:59,359 --> 00:15:01,778 Uh, and we didn't have any children. 313 00:15:01,861 --> 00:15:04,573 And you don't feel a sense of impending danger. 314 00:15:04,656 --> 00:15:08,660 -You don't feel, uh, doom. -Not immediately. 315 00:15:08,743 --> 00:15:10,078 No, not immediately. 316 00:15:10,161 --> 00:15:14,291 The thing about relationships is that-- Even domestic abuse relationships, 317 00:15:14,374 --> 00:15:15,875 they start in love. 318 00:15:15,959 --> 00:15:19,004 So it's really hard to reach the conclusion 319 00:15:19,087 --> 00:15:20,463 that it will end in death-- 320 00:15:20,547 --> 00:15:21,631 in violent death. 321 00:15:22,591 --> 00:15:27,762 Most women who are killed or almost killed by their abusers 322 00:15:27,846 --> 00:15:28,847 never see it coming. 323 00:15:28,930 --> 00:15:30,390 You can't see that coming. 324 00:15:30,974 --> 00:15:32,767 For me, um… 325 00:15:34,102 --> 00:15:37,731 I was taking a friend on an errand, 326 00:15:37,814 --> 00:15:41,443 and I was dropping that friend off at home before I headed to work. 327 00:15:41,526 --> 00:15:44,487 And I was looking down for a moment, 328 00:15:44,571 --> 00:15:47,657 and then I looked over in the passenger seat to say something, 329 00:15:47,741 --> 00:15:50,076 and before I could open my mouth, 330 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,122 his body was right there in the window outside the car. 331 00:15:54,748 --> 00:15:57,918 He didn't look down. I never saw his face. I just saw his torso. 332 00:15:58,001 --> 00:16:02,589 And, um, before I could blink, really, and think of the next move, 333 00:16:02,672 --> 00:16:03,673 his hand was coming up, 334 00:16:03,757 --> 00:16:07,135 and I barely even saw the gun before it went off. 335 00:16:07,219 --> 00:16:11,681 I just remember the pop and the smell of-- the burning smell 336 00:16:11,765 --> 00:16:13,683 and every-- like, my head ringing. 337 00:16:14,684 --> 00:16:17,437 I got shot in the jaw through and through. 338 00:16:18,104 --> 00:16:22,192 Um, I think I threw my arm up, and a bullet went through my forearm. 339 00:16:22,692 --> 00:16:26,029 And, uh, I think I slumped over at that point. 340 00:16:26,655 --> 00:16:30,784 And another bullet went into my back, 341 00:16:30,867 --> 00:16:33,870 and that's the bullet that paralyzed me from the chest down. 342 00:16:35,956 --> 00:16:38,667 He believed I was dead, and I think-- 343 00:16:39,334 --> 00:16:42,754 You know, I guess I didn't have the strength to stay conscious, 344 00:16:42,837 --> 00:16:44,297 but that's what saved my life. 345 00:16:44,381 --> 00:16:47,717 Because if he thought I was still alive, he would have kept shooting. 346 00:16:49,719 --> 00:16:51,346 That's, uh, 347 00:16:52,722 --> 00:16:58,937 incredible in how, like you say, something that begins in love 348 00:16:59,020 --> 00:17:03,650 has such, you know, violent anger behind it. 349 00:17:04,276 --> 00:17:08,822 Uh, Janet, your story is unfortunately all too similar, 350 00:17:08,905 --> 00:17:10,782 but also with very different-- 351 00:17:10,864 --> 00:17:13,410 -You saw this coming down a highway. -Yeah. 352 00:17:14,369 --> 00:17:19,165 I knew that I was going to pay a price to divorce him. 353 00:17:19,248 --> 00:17:22,669 I had been married 15 years and, um-- 354 00:17:23,795 --> 00:17:25,796 Two children, identical twin boys. 355 00:17:25,881 --> 00:17:29,843 And, um, there were some mental health issues. 356 00:17:29,926 --> 00:17:32,345 He had terrible mood swings. 357 00:17:32,429 --> 00:17:36,892 He was always getting into shouting matches with people. 358 00:17:36,975 --> 00:17:41,479 Um, I also-- Like April, I wasn't physically abused. 359 00:17:41,563 --> 00:17:43,523 You know, that's such a misconception. 360 00:17:43,607 --> 00:17:49,070 For me it was emotional abuse, sexual abuse and psychological abuse. 361 00:17:49,154 --> 00:17:55,368 And alcohol use really just made those issues even worse. 362 00:17:55,452 --> 00:18:00,999 And, um, it came to a point where my boys, who were 13 at the time, 363 00:18:01,499 --> 00:18:05,503 came to me and they said that he was drinking in the car with them. 364 00:18:06,588 --> 00:18:08,757 You know, so I went to him and I said, "Look. 365 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,635 It's time for us to get a divorce." 366 00:18:12,344 --> 00:18:14,596 And he looked at me and he said, 367 00:18:14,679 --> 00:18:17,015 "Why don't you go upstairs and get the boys 368 00:18:17,098 --> 00:18:19,601 and try and leave and see what happens to you?" 369 00:18:21,645 --> 00:18:25,273 I was like, "You're-- You're scaring me. Why are-- Why are you saying that?" 370 00:18:26,066 --> 00:18:29,819 And he was like, "No. Go ahead. Try. See what happens to you." 371 00:18:31,655 --> 00:18:33,281 The police and my attorney… 372 00:18:34,157 --> 00:18:36,534 [sighs] …told me I needed to get a temporary protective order. 373 00:18:36,618 --> 00:18:37,619 Right. 374 00:18:38,370 --> 00:18:42,415 Now, he was a huge gun enthusiast. There were 74 firearms in my house. 375 00:18:42,499 --> 00:18:43,959 -[Stewart] Seventy-four? -Yes. 376 00:18:44,042 --> 00:18:45,043 [audience murmuring] 377 00:18:45,126 --> 00:18:47,337 Most of them were locked in two big gun safes. 378 00:18:47,420 --> 00:18:51,216 But he liked to carry, so he always had one on his ankle. 379 00:18:51,299 --> 00:18:54,511 There was one in his vehicle, one in his desk drawer. 380 00:18:54,594 --> 00:18:56,346 And, um… 381 00:18:56,930 --> 00:18:59,307 It was granted. I was granted that protective order. 382 00:18:59,391 --> 00:19:00,892 And they would come and take the guns? 383 00:19:01,768 --> 00:19:03,019 All but one. 384 00:19:04,896 --> 00:19:05,897 All but one? 385 00:19:05,981 --> 00:19:08,775 They let him leave with the firearm in his truck. 386 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,861 Yeah, she told me she couldn't get it. It was a gray area. 387 00:19:11,945 --> 00:19:14,030 He shot me with it five days later. 388 00:19:16,241 --> 00:19:17,450 He-- He ambushed me. 389 00:19:17,534 --> 00:19:22,789 He was hiding on the side of the house with a gun holster, 390 00:19:22,872 --> 00:19:24,666 a Smith and Wesson 9 millimeter, 391 00:19:24,749 --> 00:19:26,751 and an extra box of ammunition. 392 00:19:27,460 --> 00:19:30,964 He thought I was at football practice with my father and the boys, 393 00:19:31,798 --> 00:19:32,799 which we were. 394 00:19:32,883 --> 00:19:34,759 He was waiting on all of us. 395 00:19:34,843 --> 00:19:37,512 I just happened to come home early, by myself, 396 00:19:37,596 --> 00:19:39,806 'cause I had groceries in the car. 397 00:19:39,890 --> 00:19:43,059 I was shot six times with the 9 millimeter. 398 00:19:43,143 --> 00:19:46,021 He shattered my right femur. 399 00:19:46,104 --> 00:19:48,064 He shattered my left knee. 400 00:19:48,148 --> 00:19:50,650 I have a through and through in my thigh. 401 00:19:50,734 --> 00:19:53,361 I have a through and through in my abdomen. 402 00:19:53,445 --> 00:19:55,780 He took out a third of my right lung. 403 00:19:55,864 --> 00:19:58,658 And then the last shot hit my L2 vertebrae. 404 00:20:02,162 --> 00:20:07,918 One of the things that feels the hardest when-- when you're all discussing it 405 00:20:08,001 --> 00:20:14,007 is the concern that judges seem to have 406 00:20:14,090 --> 00:20:15,634 for the abuser 407 00:20:15,717 --> 00:20:20,305 and the concern law enforcement seems to have for the gun. 408 00:20:20,388 --> 00:20:24,017 And it feels like more steps are taken 409 00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:30,398 to make sure that the abuser's due process isn't violated, 410 00:20:30,482 --> 00:20:31,733 and their concern is, 411 00:20:32,317 --> 00:20:34,653 "Can't get the gun in the car. That's the gun. 412 00:20:34,736 --> 00:20:37,530 -I don't want to overstep my gun getting." -[Ross] Right. 413 00:20:37,614 --> 00:20:39,866 Family violence and domestic violence offenses 414 00:20:39,950 --> 00:20:41,576 are classified as misdemeanors. 415 00:20:42,118 --> 00:20:44,079 And when people hear the term "misdemeanor," 416 00:20:44,746 --> 00:20:47,207 they think nonserious crime. 417 00:20:47,290 --> 00:20:50,001 We need to get to point where law enforcement doesn't have 418 00:20:50,085 --> 00:20:53,964 that kind of hesitancy or lackadaisical, um, attitude about-- 419 00:20:54,047 --> 00:20:56,967 He should have been taken in for the aggravated stalking, 420 00:20:57,050 --> 00:20:58,635 -which would have been a felony. -[Stewart] Right. 421 00:20:58,718 --> 00:21:01,513 And he wouldn't have gotten bail. He wouldn't have bonded out. 422 00:21:01,596 --> 00:21:04,599 And he wouldn't have been able to, four days later, shoot her. 423 00:21:06,226 --> 00:21:09,688 So, I want to let the audience know, in the dressing room, 424 00:21:09,771 --> 00:21:11,940 -your friend is back there. -Yeah. 425 00:21:12,023 --> 00:21:14,734 -And she's just lost her daughter. -Yeah. 426 00:21:14,818 --> 00:21:16,528 -To domestic violence. -Yes. 427 00:21:16,611 --> 00:21:21,658 I thought the two of you had met in some kind of support group, 428 00:21:21,741 --> 00:21:25,161 and she said, "Oh, no. We've been friends since we were kids. 429 00:21:25,245 --> 00:21:26,746 I live right up the street." 430 00:21:27,289 --> 00:21:31,710 Her beautiful daughter was shot and killed by her boyfriend 431 00:21:31,793 --> 00:21:33,587 when she was 19 years old. 432 00:21:34,170 --> 00:21:37,591 To my mind, this is an unseen and unheard epidemic. 433 00:21:38,717 --> 00:21:41,011 And so we're gonna come back and talk a little bit 434 00:21:41,094 --> 00:21:43,555 about how we gain control of it. 435 00:21:43,638 --> 00:21:45,223 -Yeah. -All right, we'll be right back. 436 00:21:45,307 --> 00:21:46,474 [audience applauding] 437 00:21:51,479 --> 00:21:55,901 So the Lautenberg Amendment prohibits anyone in this country, 438 00:21:55,984 --> 00:21:58,987 regardless of where they live, who has been convicted 439 00:21:59,070 --> 00:22:01,865 of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence 440 00:22:01,948 --> 00:22:04,993 from purchasing a firearm or possessing a firearm. 441 00:22:05,076 --> 00:22:10,332 The federal law, however, does not require or even speak to removing firearms. 442 00:22:10,415 --> 00:22:12,667 There's no federal reference to that. 443 00:22:12,751 --> 00:22:15,503 What people, from professionals to the general public, 444 00:22:15,587 --> 00:22:20,425 could not wrap their heads around are the steps and the actual logistical pieces 445 00:22:20,508 --> 00:22:21,509 that need to happen. 446 00:22:21,593 --> 00:22:24,387 Everyone agreed, yes, this person should no longer have a gun. 447 00:22:24,471 --> 00:22:25,722 We agree on that. 448 00:22:25,805 --> 00:22:29,184 But how it actually gets done, they just couldn't fathom it. 449 00:22:29,267 --> 00:22:31,478 Often, whether you are safe 450 00:22:31,561 --> 00:22:35,857 depends on where you live, what law is in place in your state, 451 00:22:35,941 --> 00:22:38,985 and if you're in a county that will implement it. 452 00:22:39,069 --> 00:22:42,739 One of the most impactful statements that I have heard is-- 453 00:22:42,822 --> 00:22:46,076 has been between one police chief to another. 454 00:22:46,159 --> 00:22:48,828 When one chief was saying, "Where do I put all of these guns? 455 00:22:48,912 --> 00:22:51,039 There's gonna be hundreds of guns. Where are we gonna put them?" 456 00:22:51,122 --> 00:22:52,916 And the other chief just simply said, 457 00:22:52,999 --> 00:22:55,919 "The same place you put it after he kills her with it." 458 00:22:59,923 --> 00:23:01,216 [audience applauding] 459 00:23:01,299 --> 00:23:04,594 We're talking with April Ross and Janet Paulsen. 460 00:23:05,303 --> 00:23:11,685 So, what allowed you guys to take this trauma and turn it into activism 461 00:23:11,768 --> 00:23:14,354 and start to advocate for victims? 462 00:23:14,437 --> 00:23:15,981 How did this come about for you? 463 00:23:16,064 --> 00:23:17,899 [Ross] For me, I, um… 464 00:23:17,983 --> 00:23:22,612 Almost instantly, the news was clamoring to get to me when they found his body. 465 00:23:22,696 --> 00:23:24,197 -[Stewart] He killed himself. -Right. 466 00:23:24,281 --> 00:23:25,991 He killed himself a few hours later. 467 00:23:26,074 --> 00:23:30,036 And so the victim-blaming starts immediately. 468 00:23:30,662 --> 00:23:32,372 "She must have done something." 469 00:23:32,455 --> 00:23:35,834 Oh, and for me, oh, heaven forbid there was a man in my car, 470 00:23:35,917 --> 00:23:38,461 you know, so, "She must have been cheating." 471 00:23:38,545 --> 00:23:42,382 You know, "She was at another man's house," you know, so… 472 00:23:42,465 --> 00:23:44,467 And it's almost that "she got what she deserved" 473 00:23:44,551 --> 00:23:46,303 is the underlining message. 474 00:23:46,386 --> 00:23:47,637 I was getting furious, 475 00:23:47,721 --> 00:23:51,141 and finally I decided to reach out to a reporter friend of mine 476 00:23:51,224 --> 00:23:52,225 and give an interview. 477 00:23:52,309 --> 00:23:54,936 What slowly starts to happen is, you meet one person, 478 00:23:55,020 --> 00:23:58,148 and then you meet another, sort of how Janet and I got connected. 479 00:23:58,231 --> 00:24:02,277 I was sent to her, um, hospital room as her peer support mentor, 480 00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:06,615 and, you know, I mentioned to her that I was slowly starting to do some advocacy, 481 00:24:06,698 --> 00:24:09,075 and I was trying to find a way to make a solution 482 00:24:09,159 --> 00:24:12,370 and bring some change so that this doesn't keep happening, 483 00:24:12,454 --> 00:24:14,789 and, "Do you want to do it too," and she said, "Yeah, I do." 484 00:24:14,873 --> 00:24:17,250 I said, "I don't know what we're gonna do, but we'll figure it out." 485 00:24:17,334 --> 00:24:19,586 -Right. -"When I figure it out, I'll call you." 486 00:24:19,669 --> 00:24:21,046 -Yeah. Yeah. -[audience laughing] 487 00:24:21,129 --> 00:24:22,923 -You proposed legislation… -[Paulsen] We did. 488 00:24:23,006 --> 00:24:24,925 …and it was not passed. 489 00:24:25,508 --> 00:24:31,640 In Georgia, we don't comply with federal gun laws. 490 00:24:31,723 --> 00:24:34,059 So if you're under a protective order, 491 00:24:34,142 --> 00:24:37,979 or you have a domestic violence misdemeanor or felony, 492 00:24:38,063 --> 00:24:39,898 you've lost your rights to firearms. 493 00:24:39,981 --> 00:24:43,068 But some counties in Georgia do. 494 00:24:43,151 --> 00:24:45,612 -I happen to live in one that did. -That complies? 495 00:24:45,695 --> 00:24:48,281 All we asked for was for the state of Georgia 496 00:24:48,365 --> 00:24:50,575 -to comply with the federal law. Um… -Right. 497 00:24:50,659 --> 00:24:54,246 And it's not just Georgia, by the way. This is not to make it seem like, 498 00:24:54,329 --> 00:24:56,248 "Oh, yeah, in Georgia, they got a real problem down there." 499 00:24:56,331 --> 00:24:57,958 -No, no, no. -Like, this is everywhere. 500 00:24:58,041 --> 00:24:59,042 [Paulsen] Yeah. 501 00:24:59,125 --> 00:25:03,004 [Stewart] What's the way to build this so that women can feel safer 502 00:25:04,047 --> 00:25:06,007 getting out of these relationships? 503 00:25:06,091 --> 00:25:09,469 An officer had me hold up a piece of paper, 504 00:25:09,553 --> 00:25:12,514 and he said, "Okay, that piece of paper is your protective order," 505 00:25:12,597 --> 00:25:13,598 and then he took a pen, 506 00:25:13,682 --> 00:25:15,934 and he jabbed through the paper while I was holding it, 507 00:25:16,017 --> 00:25:17,060 and he said, "That's a bullet. 508 00:25:18,144 --> 00:25:19,563 You need to arm yourself." 509 00:25:19,646 --> 00:25:23,733 So, I went and I applied for a concealed carry permit. 510 00:25:24,901 --> 00:25:26,570 I, uh, own a firearm, 511 00:25:26,653 --> 00:25:31,199 and I was trained, uh, by a certified gun instructor on how to use it. 512 00:25:31,283 --> 00:25:33,034 -[Stewart] Right. -And it actually, kind of, 513 00:25:33,118 --> 00:25:35,662 helped a little bit with my PTSD. 514 00:25:35,745 --> 00:25:39,541 Instead of me looking, you know, at the barrel of the gun, you know. 515 00:25:39,624 --> 00:25:41,835 That image kind of changed. 516 00:25:41,918 --> 00:25:43,670 But, you know, that's not the answer. 517 00:25:45,589 --> 00:25:48,383 We can't solve this problem at the shoot-out level. 518 00:25:48,466 --> 00:25:51,386 -[both] No. -The idea that if your husband 519 00:25:51,469 --> 00:25:53,513 had come in with a weapon and shot you six times, 520 00:25:53,597 --> 00:25:56,641 that you could have outgunned him seems ludicrous. 521 00:25:56,725 --> 00:25:58,894 -It's ludicrous. -And if the police-- 522 00:25:58,977 --> 00:26:03,523 the place you're going to for protection is telling you, 523 00:26:03,607 --> 00:26:05,442 "We are deputizing you." 524 00:26:05,525 --> 00:26:07,027 [both scoff] 525 00:26:07,110 --> 00:26:08,653 That's giving up. 526 00:26:08,737 --> 00:26:10,113 In the prosecutor's office I worked in, 527 00:26:10,196 --> 00:26:13,783 with the investigators interacting with police officers every day, 528 00:26:13,867 --> 00:26:18,747 there was not a true understanding about domestic violence. 529 00:26:19,748 --> 00:26:22,584 They only see it when you get somebody black-and-blue in the face. 530 00:26:22,667 --> 00:26:25,754 And that is not what domestic violence looks like. 531 00:26:26,588 --> 00:26:29,674 It looks like a person walking down the street. 532 00:26:29,758 --> 00:26:35,055 You don't need to see a person bruised up to be able to agree or to acknowledge 533 00:26:35,138 --> 00:26:38,350 that they're in an abusive relationship, or that they're in danger. 534 00:26:38,433 --> 00:26:42,145 And so, officers need intensive domestic violence training 535 00:26:42,229 --> 00:26:43,730 as a part of the police academies. 536 00:26:43,813 --> 00:26:47,025 They need to understand cultural dynamics, um… 537 00:26:47,108 --> 00:26:52,822 because everybody that they go to for a call isn't gonna look like them, 538 00:26:52,906 --> 00:26:55,617 isn't gonna have the same life experiences and background as them. 539 00:26:55,700 --> 00:26:56,743 So they need to understand, 540 00:26:56,826 --> 00:27:01,289 so that they respect the person who called enough to take every call seriously. 541 00:27:01,373 --> 00:27:04,292 Stop worrying about if the person's gonna get back in that relationship. 542 00:27:04,376 --> 00:27:07,587 On average, it takes a woman nine times of trying to leave 543 00:27:07,671 --> 00:27:09,214 before they successfully leave a relationship. 544 00:27:09,297 --> 00:27:13,718 And I can tell you, I'm above average because I was-- 545 00:27:13,802 --> 00:27:15,762 It took me a whole lot more than nine, you know, 546 00:27:15,845 --> 00:27:18,515 -before I successfully left that marriage. -I took two. 547 00:27:18,598 --> 00:27:21,351 It's even also to look at-- If you look at a harm reduction model. 548 00:27:21,434 --> 00:27:25,605 So let's say they overstep on civil liberties, which, as we know, 549 00:27:25,689 --> 00:27:29,442 the police are not, uh, loath to do in other situations, you know. 550 00:27:29,526 --> 00:27:31,861 They'll pull people over. They'll do all kinds of things. 551 00:27:31,945 --> 00:27:35,532 Worse things worse, if it wasn't really a situation that was warranted, 552 00:27:35,615 --> 00:27:37,617 you lose custody of your gun for a month. 553 00:27:37,701 --> 00:27:40,662 -Right. -But if not, a life is saved. 554 00:27:40,745 --> 00:27:42,664 So how is that even in question? 555 00:27:42,747 --> 00:27:44,791 The argument you get a lot of times is, 556 00:27:44,874 --> 00:27:48,211 if you start here with pulling back gun rights, 557 00:27:48,295 --> 00:27:50,672 or if you take these guns away in this situation, 558 00:27:50,755 --> 00:27:52,465 then you'll just come up with another situation 559 00:27:52,549 --> 00:27:53,550 -where you can take guns. -[Paulsen] Yeah. 560 00:27:53,633 --> 00:27:54,718 And then another. It's the-- 561 00:27:54,801 --> 00:27:56,261 And then they argue it's the slippery slope. 562 00:27:56,344 --> 00:27:59,806 It's not a slippery slope. We're already at the bottom of the hill. 563 00:27:59,890 --> 00:28:00,974 [Paulsen] Yeah. 564 00:28:01,808 --> 00:28:04,269 So what's next for the dynamic duo? 565 00:28:04,352 --> 00:28:09,524 We have received a federal grant to build a family justice center. 566 00:28:09,608 --> 00:28:11,526 That's where you fill out your police report. 567 00:28:11,610 --> 00:28:15,238 -Childcare is there, uh, legal advisers… -[Stewart] Mm-hmm. 568 00:28:15,322 --> 00:28:17,908 …therapists. All in one place. 569 00:28:17,991 --> 00:28:20,327 Janet, like she mentioned earlier, lives in a community 570 00:28:20,410 --> 00:28:22,996 that has decided to take guns away from people 571 00:28:23,079 --> 00:28:24,706 when they get a protective order against them. 572 00:28:24,789 --> 00:28:26,833 -Right. -That didn't just happen on its own. 573 00:28:26,917 --> 00:28:29,419 Even though I agree we need the state law, 574 00:28:29,502 --> 00:28:33,173 community-level changes are a good way to start. 575 00:28:33,757 --> 00:28:35,050 Well, you guys are amazing. 576 00:28:35,133 --> 00:28:38,220 And I really appreciate you being here and talking about it. 577 00:28:38,303 --> 00:28:41,556 I have a feeling you're gonna make some enormous progress. 578 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,100 -Hope so. Thank you. -Thank you so much. All right. 579 00:28:44,184 --> 00:28:45,227 [audience applauding] 580 00:28:45,310 --> 00:28:47,646 April Ross. Janet Paulsen. We'll be right back after this. 581 00:28:47,729 --> 00:28:49,314 Um, thank you. 582 00:28:53,526 --> 00:28:56,029 You have a lot of the officers 583 00:28:56,112 --> 00:28:59,324 that don't believe in taking guns away from people, 584 00:28:59,407 --> 00:29:00,533 and then you have to point out, 585 00:29:00,617 --> 00:29:03,912 well, more officers were killed by DV perpetrators than any other group. 586 00:29:03,995 --> 00:29:06,623 You are not gonna see a bunch of ATF agents, you know, 587 00:29:06,706 --> 00:29:09,000 running around collecting guns on protection orders. 588 00:29:09,084 --> 00:29:12,420 They're usually looking for bigger fish to catch. 589 00:29:12,504 --> 00:29:13,672 They're issuing protective orders 590 00:29:13,755 --> 00:29:18,343 but they're not taking the firearms. The relinquishment's not happening. 591 00:29:18,426 --> 00:29:22,013 I think the biggest barrier is roadblocks we have mentally 592 00:29:22,097 --> 00:29:23,807 with each individual person. 593 00:29:23,890 --> 00:29:27,227 So we drafted a mandatory divestiture process, 594 00:29:28,103 --> 00:29:33,775 and believe it or not, in a red state, they voted, and it was 96 to 0. 595 00:29:33,858 --> 00:29:36,736 Absolutely no opposition at all. 596 00:29:36,820 --> 00:29:38,738 I was-- I was floored. 597 00:29:38,822 --> 00:29:42,158 You know, we're doing it here, in little old Lafourche, 598 00:29:42,242 --> 00:29:45,704 south Louisiana, where everybody has firearms. 599 00:29:45,787 --> 00:29:49,040 Changing police culture is like bending granite. 600 00:29:49,124 --> 00:29:51,251 I mean, you need heat, time and pressure. 601 00:29:51,793 --> 00:29:54,129 And you can do it with all three of those things. 602 00:29:57,382 --> 00:29:59,968 [Stewart] The federal law is that if you have a protection order 603 00:30:00,051 --> 00:30:02,387 or a restraining order, or you've been convicted of domestic violence, 604 00:30:02,470 --> 00:30:03,847 you cannot own a firearm. 605 00:30:03,930 --> 00:30:05,682 True. Or ammunition. 606 00:30:05,765 --> 00:30:07,434 Or ammunition. 607 00:30:07,517 --> 00:30:11,771 But there doesn't seem to be a dissemination of that 608 00:30:11,855 --> 00:30:16,234 into local and state-level enforcement. 609 00:30:17,319 --> 00:30:20,030 That doesn't serve their interests. 610 00:30:20,780 --> 00:30:23,950 Why is law enforcement not taking the lead 611 00:30:24,034 --> 00:30:27,746 and weeding out bad guys with guns? 612 00:30:27,829 --> 00:30:32,000 Um, I would say that, um, 613 00:30:32,083 --> 00:30:34,794 a lot of the obstacles are cultural. 614 00:30:34,878 --> 00:30:40,383 As cops, we're human beings who bring all of our biases to the job. 615 00:30:40,467 --> 00:30:44,512 So if we're a conservative white male and a member of the NRA, 616 00:30:44,596 --> 00:30:48,642 you're already in the headspace that gun laws are bad, 617 00:30:48,725 --> 00:30:51,394 everyone needs a gun, and good guys will prevail. 618 00:30:51,478 --> 00:30:53,605 There's a certain portion of that going on. 619 00:30:53,688 --> 00:30:55,815 But I would say it's not, you know-- 620 00:30:55,899 --> 00:31:00,320 I think we have a tendency to say, like, "Okay, a conservative white man," 621 00:31:00,403 --> 00:31:03,281 but those aren't the only people that dismiss women's concerns. 622 00:31:03,365 --> 00:31:07,410 It's a problem in rural communities, it's a problem in cities, 623 00:31:07,494 --> 00:31:12,249 it's a problem in suburbs, and it's all of the same dynamic. 624 00:31:12,332 --> 00:31:13,583 I agree with you. 625 00:31:13,667 --> 00:31:16,670 I mean, I agree with how defeating this is. 626 00:31:16,753 --> 00:31:18,630 -Right. -And we have to also understand, 627 00:31:18,713 --> 00:31:20,632 like, who are the actors making the decision? 628 00:31:20,715 --> 00:31:23,885 We know. There have been studies doi-- done 629 00:31:23,969 --> 00:31:27,806 that show that for law enforcement themselves, as people, 630 00:31:27,889 --> 00:31:31,685 there's higher incidence of domestic violence in their own homes. 631 00:31:31,768 --> 00:31:33,353 People don't wanna say, like, 632 00:31:33,436 --> 00:31:36,606 "Hey, I had a bad situation in my home that was violent." 633 00:31:36,690 --> 00:31:38,066 -Right. -"And I'm worried, like, 634 00:31:38,149 --> 00:31:40,986 that person's mad at me, and they could use this law to take away my gun, 635 00:31:41,069 --> 00:31:42,279 and if that happens, I lose my job." 636 00:31:42,362 --> 00:31:44,656 Like there are all these other motivations going on. 637 00:31:44,739 --> 00:31:46,658 -Right. -There's also this, sort of, 638 00:31:46,741 --> 00:31:48,368 throwing their hands up, saying, like, 639 00:31:48,451 --> 00:31:52,289 "Gun violence is a problem that can't be stopped." 640 00:31:53,039 --> 00:31:54,040 Really? 641 00:31:54,124 --> 00:31:55,250 It's just gonna happen. 642 00:31:55,333 --> 00:31:58,211 It's part of the cost of doing business, 643 00:31:58,295 --> 00:32:01,715 no laws are gonna prevent criminals from getting guns. 644 00:32:01,798 --> 00:32:03,049 Even if I took that gun, 645 00:32:03,133 --> 00:32:06,678 that guy could have gone out and bought another one just that day, or built one. 646 00:32:06,761 --> 00:32:10,098 -Like, there's this frustration, like-- -But then why have any laws? 647 00:32:10,181 --> 00:32:12,392 Drunk driving was a problem, 648 00:32:12,475 --> 00:32:15,270 so we created programs against drunk driving, 649 00:32:15,353 --> 00:32:20,901 and the police would set up drunk-driving checks 650 00:32:20,984 --> 00:32:22,485 on the streets, right? 651 00:32:22,569 --> 00:32:23,653 And you could make the argument, 652 00:32:23,737 --> 00:32:25,864 "Well, that's a violation of the Fourth Amendment." 653 00:32:25,947 --> 00:32:29,075 They did make the argument and, you know, it was controversial, 654 00:32:29,159 --> 00:32:30,160 but it passed through. 655 00:32:30,243 --> 00:32:32,662 -So it's all about rewards, right? -Right. 656 00:32:32,746 --> 00:32:35,206 So the federal government would send money 657 00:32:35,290 --> 00:32:39,044 to police departments through probably transportation, um, 658 00:32:39,127 --> 00:32:42,172 to pay for overtime for those officers doing that. 659 00:32:42,255 --> 00:32:46,301 But we decided, as a culture, drunk driving is a problem. 660 00:32:46,384 --> 00:32:47,385 Too many people are dying. 661 00:32:47,469 --> 00:32:52,474 It's a problem we're willing to commit to owning 662 00:32:52,557 --> 00:32:55,602 and paying for to solve, and there were incentives 663 00:32:55,685 --> 00:32:56,978 -to be good at it. -Right. 664 00:32:57,062 --> 00:33:01,191 You got overtime, you're gonna be given awards if you catch a lot of people. 665 00:33:01,274 --> 00:33:04,152 I mean, there was like-- It was carrots everywhere. 666 00:33:04,236 --> 00:33:06,529 Like, I think that's a model for success. 667 00:33:07,364 --> 00:33:12,244 How do you de-escalate law-enforcement resistance? 668 00:33:12,327 --> 00:33:14,955 I think it's pretty clear now that the federal approach 669 00:33:15,038 --> 00:33:18,041 is probably not the one that's going to be very effective. 670 00:33:18,124 --> 00:33:21,586 We live in an environment where we're not gonna pass federal laws. 671 00:33:21,670 --> 00:33:23,838 All right, so fighting that fight, even though that-- 672 00:33:23,922 --> 00:33:24,923 [laughing] 673 00:33:25,006 --> 00:33:26,341 -I mean, we're not, so-- -I know. 674 00:33:26,424 --> 00:33:28,677 -So like-- -It's a funny thing to say out loud. 675 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:29,761 We live in an environment-- 676 00:33:29,844 --> 00:33:32,180 Especially when your job is trying to advocate, 677 00:33:32,264 --> 00:33:36,393 and we do seem, to some degree, able to throw money at problems. 678 00:33:36,476 --> 00:33:38,395 Police are strapped in their budgets, 679 00:33:38,478 --> 00:33:42,315 and so, if you can give funding from the federal government 680 00:33:42,399 --> 00:33:45,026 that's coming outside the normal local mechanism, 681 00:33:45,110 --> 00:33:47,696 and ask them to do programs and priorities, 682 00:33:47,779 --> 00:33:51,283 people do what they have the resources to do. 683 00:33:51,366 --> 00:33:55,662 And they don't need legislative, then, approval because laws already exist. 684 00:33:55,745 --> 00:33:58,748 We have plenty we can do with the laws on the books now. 685 00:33:58,832 --> 00:34:01,251 You know, the first thing I ask is 686 00:34:01,334 --> 00:34:04,337 would you have taken the same action as a law enforcement 687 00:34:04,421 --> 00:34:06,047 if that woman was your sister? 688 00:34:06,131 --> 00:34:08,258 -Right. -Like, wait, can we personalize it? 689 00:34:08,340 --> 00:34:11,260 And that's what we've got to encourage police officers to do. 690 00:34:12,345 --> 00:34:15,599 Do you think domestic violence, then, is not taken as seriously 691 00:34:16,182 --> 00:34:22,146 because the culture is sort of, uh, trained to not believe women 692 00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:25,108 or to dismiss women's concerns? 693 00:34:25,191 --> 00:34:29,613 Because it-- it does seem like if this were happening to men, 694 00:34:29,695 --> 00:34:32,824 there'd be a far greater outcry. 695 00:34:32,907 --> 00:34:34,326 I think that's a fair criticism. 696 00:34:34,409 --> 00:34:36,745 -And until that culture is fixed… -Mm-hmm. 697 00:34:36,827 --> 00:34:38,622 …we will remain broken. 698 00:34:39,873 --> 00:34:41,958 The International Association of Chiefs of Police, 699 00:34:42,041 --> 00:34:43,668 you're a part of that organization. 700 00:34:43,751 --> 00:34:46,588 Yes, and I was on their firearms committee. 701 00:34:46,671 --> 00:34:50,550 Only 25 of this large-- this organization. I had two terms. 702 00:34:50,634 --> 00:34:54,095 I wrote most of their materials about gun violence prevention. 703 00:34:54,179 --> 00:34:56,389 The firearms committee is in charge of? 704 00:34:56,472 --> 00:35:00,518 All firearms policy that IACP endorses. And I've been on it-- 705 00:35:00,602 --> 00:35:03,146 -I worked there for years. -Just out of curiosity, 706 00:35:03,230 --> 00:35:05,857 -how many women were on that? -One. 707 00:35:06,733 --> 00:35:08,026 How many people are on it? 708 00:35:08,109 --> 00:35:11,196 Twenty-five. One person of color. This is-- 709 00:35:11,279 --> 00:35:14,032 -One person of color and one woman? -Yes. 710 00:35:14,115 --> 00:35:17,702 Writing the policy for the IACP on firearms? 711 00:35:19,788 --> 00:35:21,122 That-- That seems fair. 712 00:35:21,831 --> 00:35:28,171 Yeah. And so, IACP is largely now representing small-town police chiefs, 713 00:35:28,255 --> 00:35:30,340 rural chiefs, major-city chiefs. 714 00:35:30,423 --> 00:35:32,092 Has a very different look. 715 00:35:32,717 --> 00:35:35,303 -And, yes, this is shocking. -But it's clearly a constituency 716 00:35:35,387 --> 00:35:37,013 -that could make a difference. -Oh, yes. 717 00:35:37,097 --> 00:35:42,561 If they came out tomorrow as-- as, "This is an important initiative 718 00:35:42,644 --> 00:35:46,606 that we're gonna put a good amount of resource and time to," 719 00:35:46,690 --> 00:35:49,442 that would be enormous. 720 00:35:53,321 --> 00:35:57,742 Why is a domestic violence situation not in and of itself 721 00:35:57,826 --> 00:36:02,747 -probable cause to remove firearms? -That's a perfect example 722 00:36:02,831 --> 00:36:05,166 where an officer goes in and takes that gun. 723 00:36:05,250 --> 00:36:07,836 This person says, "You just violated my Fourth Amendment rights. 724 00:36:07,919 --> 00:36:11,673 I have a Second Amendment right to that-- you know, to keep that firearm, 725 00:36:11,756 --> 00:36:15,427 and I have protections against unlawful searches and seizures." 726 00:36:15,510 --> 00:36:16,928 We had two people on the show. 727 00:36:17,012 --> 00:36:19,389 A woman named April Ross and a woman named Janet Paulsen. 728 00:36:19,472 --> 00:36:21,933 Both were survivors of domestic violence. 729 00:36:22,017 --> 00:36:24,269 Janet got a restraining order. 730 00:36:24,352 --> 00:36:27,230 They came to collect her husband's guns. 731 00:36:27,314 --> 00:36:30,609 There was one in the car. She said, "Can you please get that one as well?" 732 00:36:30,692 --> 00:36:33,570 They said, "We can't." And he shot her with that one. 733 00:36:33,653 --> 00:36:36,531 Mm-hmm. A lot of times, these orders are very specific. 734 00:36:36,615 --> 00:36:37,991 -They come from a judge. -Right. 735 00:36:38,074 --> 00:36:40,785 Particularly when it comes to Second Amendment rights. 736 00:36:40,869 --> 00:36:43,788 So they go in and an officer takes that gun out of the car, 737 00:36:43,872 --> 00:36:46,416 -they're gonna end up in legal jeopardy. -Mm-hmm. 738 00:36:46,499 --> 00:36:49,544 It's about a protecting them on-- against a civil suit. 739 00:36:49,628 --> 00:36:52,756 So now, a-as a cop-- You know, Jon, what are they making? 740 00:36:52,839 --> 00:36:54,925 -You know? $60,000 a year… -[Stewart] Right. 741 00:36:55,008 --> 00:36:57,177 …and now you're gonna bankrupt this cop 742 00:36:57,260 --> 00:36:59,512 because they're trying to do the right thing to keep somebody safe? 743 00:36:59,596 --> 00:37:05,101 What that says is, their hands are tied about enforcing laws that are on the books 744 00:37:05,685 --> 00:37:09,272 because they fear a legal process against them. 745 00:37:09,356 --> 00:37:13,777 Does the will not exist to do it because of that legal question? 746 00:37:13,860 --> 00:37:15,445 -Eh… -And does that play a role? 747 00:37:15,528 --> 00:37:18,490 Well, I know at the executive level it doesn't, you know? 748 00:37:18,573 --> 00:37:20,242 At the line and staff level, I don't know. 749 00:37:20,325 --> 00:37:23,912 Do you still believe that it's possible to do this at a legislative level? 750 00:37:23,995 --> 00:37:25,872 We need a federal standard. 751 00:37:25,956 --> 00:37:28,416 We need them to come in and say, "We're not federalizing police, 752 00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:31,378 but we need a federal standard that people can train to, can understand, 753 00:37:31,461 --> 00:37:33,713 that's evidence-based, that makes sense." Right? 754 00:37:33,797 --> 00:37:35,882 But having those conversations in those offices with people-- 755 00:37:35,966 --> 00:37:38,760 When you look at 'em and say-- They're just not hearing me. 756 00:37:38,843 --> 00:37:41,555 -You know? It's extremely frustrating. -Right. 757 00:37:41,638 --> 00:37:42,889 Where would you attack it? 758 00:37:42,973 --> 00:37:46,601 As someone who really knows it from being a police chief at a local level 759 00:37:46,685 --> 00:37:49,396 and also having a good overview of it. 760 00:37:49,479 --> 00:37:50,605 What would you do? 761 00:37:51,481 --> 00:37:54,234 The game changer for law enforcement has been 762 00:37:54,317 --> 00:37:56,278 those extreme risk protection orders. 763 00:37:56,361 --> 00:37:58,822 Does that differ from a temporary restraining order? 764 00:37:58,905 --> 00:38:00,031 [stutters] A hundred percent. 765 00:38:00,115 --> 00:38:01,783 -Temporary restraining order, right? -Yeah. 766 00:38:01,866 --> 00:38:04,953 They're-- You have to really-- That's a high bar to get to. 767 00:38:05,036 --> 00:38:08,164 On an extreme risk protection order, it's not a high bar, 768 00:38:08,248 --> 00:38:11,877 because it's a temporary separation of you from your firearms. 769 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,922 A woman can go in and say, "My husband has been polishing his gun 770 00:38:16,006 --> 00:38:18,592 -and I feel like I'm in jeopardy." -That's it. 771 00:38:18,675 --> 00:38:19,885 -"And I need this." -Perfect. 772 00:38:19,968 --> 00:38:22,053 -That's a great example. Exactly. -That would do it. 773 00:38:22,137 --> 00:38:24,556 Right now, there's only 20 states that have it, 774 00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:26,600 and the District of Columbia, right? 775 00:38:26,683 --> 00:38:29,769 So we've still got, you know, another 30 to go. 776 00:38:29,853 --> 00:38:31,605 And then the judge, you know, will-- 777 00:38:31,688 --> 00:38:33,815 Would they be able to take the gun from the car too? 778 00:38:33,899 --> 00:38:36,026 Yeah, under extreme risk protection, they can take 'em all. 779 00:38:39,988 --> 00:38:42,657 I think part of the problem with this issue is 780 00:38:42,741 --> 00:38:46,036 yes, it impacts women, but what was illumining for me 781 00:38:46,119 --> 00:38:49,998 is that it disproportionately impacts Black and brown women, 782 00:38:50,081 --> 00:38:51,708 -indigenous women, and-- -[woman] Trans. 783 00:38:51,791 --> 00:38:54,836 Trans women. Um, and I think that's also part of the problem 784 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:56,546 that we need to actually talk about. 785 00:38:56,630 --> 00:38:59,132 -That we don't talk about. -[Susan] Black women are twice as likely 786 00:38:59,216 --> 00:39:01,343 to be shot and killed by an intimate partner than a white woman. 787 00:39:01,426 --> 00:39:03,637 -Which is shocking to me. -And insane. 788 00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:06,598 [Chelsea] That's the other end. It's like, do we not move on this issue 789 00:39:06,681 --> 00:39:08,642 because it's a bunch of dudes affecting it, 790 00:39:08,725 --> 00:39:12,062 or is it because it's mostly affecting Black and brown women? 791 00:39:12,145 --> 00:39:14,356 -Yeah. -[woman] Probably a combination of both. 792 00:39:14,439 --> 00:39:17,943 -Probably a hot combo with both. -[all laughing] 793 00:39:18,026 --> 00:39:19,152 [audience laughs, claps] 794 00:39:19,236 --> 00:39:21,821 ♪ Pah, pah, pah, pah ♪ 795 00:39:21,905 --> 00:39:26,159 Thank you! Thank you so much for watching the program 796 00:39:26,243 --> 00:39:28,662 while, I'm assuming, scrolling Twitter on your phone. 797 00:39:28,745 --> 00:39:32,165 I cannot wait to see all 2,000 comments 798 00:39:32,249 --> 00:39:34,376 agreeing with everything we've said here tonight. 799 00:39:34,459 --> 00:39:37,546 -[audience laughs] -And, for even more, we've got a podcast. 800 00:39:37,629 --> 00:39:39,089 Listen and sing along. 801 00:39:39,172 --> 00:39:41,925 You can learn more about how to join the fight against domestic violence. 802 00:39:42,008 --> 00:39:48,223 Subscribe to our newsletter at theproblem.com/cheesedip. 803 00:39:48,306 --> 00:39:50,267 And check out these organizations. 804 00:39:50,976 --> 00:39:54,604 We shall see you… Uh, next time. 805 00:39:54,688 --> 00:39:56,314 Have a good night. Bye. 806 00:39:56,398 --> 00:39:57,399 [audience cheers] 807 00:39:59,734 --> 00:40:03,989 We are going to go. 808 00:40:04,906 --> 00:40:08,034 -I'm Niecy Nash. -And I'm Thandiwe Newton. 809 00:40:08,118 --> 00:40:10,495 And we're the stars of a new movie, 810 00:40:10,579 --> 00:40:13,540 The Real Thelma and Louise. 811 00:40:13,623 --> 00:40:18,295 The premise of this reboot is to make a real-life version of the classic. 812 00:40:18,378 --> 00:40:23,049 So first off, Thelma and Louise are being played by two Black women. 813 00:40:23,133 --> 00:40:24,509 Our characters go on the run 814 00:40:24,593 --> 00:40:28,805 after Louise shoots Thelma's abusive husband in self-defense. 815 00:40:28,889 --> 00:40:31,641 Thelma and Louise make it all the way… 816 00:40:32,517 --> 00:40:35,270 to the driveway before they are arrested. 817 00:40:35,353 --> 00:40:36,688 It's a pretty short movie. 818 00:40:36,771 --> 00:40:38,857 Mm-hmm. But, you know, fun romp. 819 00:40:42,444 --> 00:40:44,404 We do kiss once. 820 00:40:44,487 --> 00:40:45,488 Iconic. 821 00:40:45,572 --> 00:40:50,285 -Catch The Real Thelma and Louise. -[Nash] The original girls' trip. 822 00:40:50,368 --> 00:40:54,956 Take your white boyfriend and enjoy the silence on the ride home.