1
00:00:06,675 --> 00:00:10,804
Working in TV news, I would pitch stories
about how people were dying in prison

2
00:00:10,887 --> 00:00:13,765
because of COVID
and, like, you know, racist AI.

3
00:00:13,848 --> 00:00:19,187
You see what they say no to,
and you see what they say yes to and why.

4
00:00:19,271 --> 00:00:23,775
Here's the thing. No one ever wants to be
a journalist because of ratings.

5
00:00:23,858 --> 00:00:28,280
Ultimately, the reporters,
the producers, the researchers--

6
00:00:28,363 --> 00:00:31,741
They are 100%
doing that from a space of, like,

7
00:00:31,825 --> 00:00:33,577
there's truth that needs to be
uncovered here.

8
00:00:33,660 --> 00:00:38,290
But success is defined as ratings.

9
00:00:38,373 --> 00:00:40,125
And it's like Nielsen ratings, which are--

10
00:00:40,208 --> 00:00:44,588
There's less than 50,000 Nielsen families
representing the entire US.

11
00:00:44,671 --> 00:00:46,339
It literally makes me think. I'm like,

12
00:00:46,423 --> 00:00:51,386
"Am I representing what
Iranian Muslims watch?" Like, it doesn't…

13
00:00:51,469 --> 00:00:52,762
Are you a Nielsen family?

14
00:00:52,846 --> 00:00:56,808
We were once.
Like, no joke, when I was, like, 13.

15
00:00:56,892 --> 00:00:58,018
You'd fill it out.

16
00:00:58,101 --> 00:00:59,811
Like, you'd be like,
"Uh-huh, we watched this."

17
00:00:59,895 --> 00:01:02,230
And, like, the thing is,
it's like anything else,

18
00:01:02,314 --> 00:01:03,440
like any kind of homework.

19
00:01:03,523 --> 00:01:06,276
At some point, you're like, "Oh, shit,
we forgot to fill-- I don't know.

20
00:01:06,359 --> 00:01:08,069
Just say I watched Seinfeld.
I don't fucking know."

21
00:01:08,153 --> 00:01:09,863
[Stewart] Right. So, to tie it up,

22
00:01:09,946 --> 00:01:14,784
- the shitty model of news that we are fed…
- [Reza] Yes.

23
00:01:14,868 --> 00:01:21,499
…is based on an antiquated system that is
not reflective of who's watching it.

24
00:01:21,583 --> 00:01:23,001
- That's the strange thing.
- [Chelsea] Yes.

25
00:01:23,084 --> 00:01:26,213
It was my family doing it for, like,
seven bucks a month or whatever.

26
00:01:26,296 --> 00:01:28,465
Can I tell you something?
And I appreciate this.

27
00:01:28,548 --> 00:01:32,135
That your Muslim family
just wrote in Seinfeld.

28
00:01:32,219 --> 00:01:34,179
- [laughing]
- Because…

29
00:01:34,262 --> 00:01:36,932
I can't tell you how much
that elevated my people.

30
00:01:37,015 --> 00:01:38,767
[all laughing]

31
00:02:08,087 --> 00:02:11,091
[audience cheering, applauding]

32
00:02:20,767 --> 00:02:21,768
Boom!

33
00:02:22,561 --> 00:02:23,562
Boom!

34
00:02:24,062 --> 00:02:25,063
[grunts]

35
00:02:25,647 --> 00:02:26,856
Hey, everybody.

36
00:02:26,940 --> 00:02:28,692
[cheering, applauding continues]

37
00:02:31,194 --> 00:02:33,280
Thank you very much.
Nice to see everybody.

38
00:02:33,363 --> 00:02:35,865
Thank you so much for joining us.
My name is Jon Stewart.

39
00:02:37,242 --> 00:02:39,494
I gotta tell you something.
[stammering] I am so glad

40
00:02:39,578 --> 00:02:42,664
that you are joining us tonight,
of all the shows.

41
00:02:42,747 --> 00:02:46,126
You know I have great respect
for each of the, uh--

42
00:02:46,209 --> 00:02:48,753
I think it's, like, four shows
that we've done. [chuckles]

43
00:02:48,837 --> 00:02:50,171
[audience chuckles]

44
00:02:50,255 --> 00:02:52,048
We've done, like, four of them,

45
00:02:52,132 --> 00:02:54,342
like I'm an Etsy store of shows.

46
00:02:55,802 --> 00:02:57,470
I'm knitting each one myself.

47
00:02:57,554 --> 00:02:59,806
I love them all. They're all gems.

48
00:03:00,974 --> 00:03:03,268
[scattered laughter]

49
00:03:03,351 --> 00:03:04,978
Don't patronize me.

50
00:03:06,438 --> 00:03:09,608
But tonight, we're talking about…

51
00:03:13,528 --> 00:03:15,488
the news media and--

52
00:03:15,572 --> 00:03:17,616
- [audience booing]
- Yeah!

53
00:03:18,742 --> 00:03:19,784
Yeah.

54
00:03:20,952 --> 00:03:27,417
It is for me my bête noire,
my white whale, the pea under my mattress.

55
00:03:30,378 --> 00:03:31,755
I'm very bothered by it.

56
00:03:32,797 --> 00:03:36,927
Now, generally our news media
has been collected

57
00:03:37,010 --> 00:03:39,888
into two major categories,
for the most part.

58
00:03:39,971 --> 00:03:46,102
You got your-- your what they call
the mainstream, liberal, corporate media.

59
00:03:46,686 --> 00:03:47,729
Mm-hmm?

60
00:03:47,812 --> 00:03:53,026
And then you got your right-wing,
also mainstream, corporate media.

61
00:03:54,277 --> 00:03:57,030
I'm gonna leave Facebook
and TikTok for another day.

62
00:03:58,990 --> 00:04:02,160
One side of this media equation believes

63
00:04:02,244 --> 00:04:06,039
they are the purveyors
of truth and justice.

64
00:04:06,122 --> 00:04:10,210
The guardians of our democratic republic.

65
00:04:10,919 --> 00:04:14,256
The other side is effective.

66
00:04:14,339 --> 00:04:16,550
[audience laughs]

67
00:04:19,302 --> 00:04:22,931
Now, we're not gonna talk about
right-wing media for this whole program.

68
00:04:23,014 --> 00:04:28,687
We're just gonna show you how fucking good
they are at accomplishing their goals.

69
00:04:30,188 --> 00:04:31,898
Let's start with our story, uh, uh,

70
00:04:31,982 --> 00:04:34,150
and begin with a gentleman
named Christopher Rufo.

71
00:04:34,234 --> 00:04:39,281
Rufo wanted to make critical race theory
into a political winner for Republicans.

72
00:04:39,364 --> 00:04:41,700
This was his stated goal.

73
00:04:41,783 --> 00:04:44,869
[chuckling, muttering]

74
00:04:45,453 --> 00:04:48,081
It's not so easy. [laughs]

75
00:04:48,164 --> 00:04:49,374
I'm kidding. Have a look.

76
00:04:49,457 --> 00:04:53,503
It's absolutely astonishing
how critical race theory has pervaded

77
00:04:53,587 --> 00:04:55,422
every institution
in the federal government.

78
00:04:55,505 --> 00:04:59,467
And I call on the president
to immediately issue this executive order

79
00:04:59,551 --> 00:05:05,473
and stamp out this destructive, divisive,
pseudoscientific ideology at its root.

80
00:05:06,057 --> 00:05:08,935
The fucking guy--
"I-I call on the president."

81
00:05:09,019 --> 00:05:13,148
Who the fuck-- Let me tell you something.
He's the president of the United States.

82
00:05:13,231 --> 00:05:18,194
Christopher Rufo, he goes on, uh,
that other idiot's show on September 1st

83
00:05:18,278 --> 00:05:20,405
and calls on the president.

84
00:05:20,488 --> 00:05:22,115
Well, guess what?

85
00:05:22,198 --> 00:05:25,702
His words echoed impotently,

86
00:05:26,786 --> 00:05:29,372
all the way to September 17th.

87
00:05:29,456 --> 00:05:36,046
Students in our universities are inundated
with critical race theory.

88
00:05:37,380 --> 00:05:44,012
This is a Marxist doctrine holding that
America is a wicked and racist nation.

89
00:05:44,763 --> 00:05:47,307
[audience groaning]

90
00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,228
Aren't cult leaders supposed
to be charismatic?

91
00:05:51,311 --> 00:05:53,605
[audience laughs]

92
00:05:54,397 --> 00:05:56,274
That's the weirdest delivery.

93
00:05:56,358 --> 00:05:58,693
[audience cheering, applauding]

94
00:06:01,488 --> 00:06:03,531
[mumbling] This is, uh-- This is…

95
00:06:04,866 --> 00:06:06,451
This is Kool-Aid…

96
00:06:08,536 --> 00:06:11,081
fruity and delicious.

97
00:06:12,666 --> 00:06:14,459
You should drink it.

98
00:06:16,044 --> 00:06:18,213
Not around walls because…

99
00:06:21,675 --> 00:06:23,051
Giant pitcher.

100
00:06:27,097 --> 00:06:32,519
Fucking 16 days from the time
that guy went on Fox News and said,

101
00:06:32,602 --> 00:06:35,897
"I call on the president to do something
about critical race theory,"

102
00:06:35,981 --> 00:06:39,150
to when the president did something
about critical race--

103
00:06:39,234 --> 00:06:42,362
Now, of course, you can't always rely on
a president binge-watching your show

104
00:06:42,445 --> 00:06:44,197
and writing down
whatever you tell him to do.

105
00:06:44,281 --> 00:06:49,536
So, in this new age of Biden, right-wing
media had to work a little harder

106
00:06:49,619 --> 00:06:54,124
on their bespoke harm-to-table
critical race theory nonsense.

107
00:06:54,207 --> 00:06:58,169
Kids across America are being force-fed
the critical race theory poison.

108
00:06:58,253 --> 00:06:59,296
You have to get organized.

109
00:06:59,379 --> 00:07:01,381
Turn around and say,
"I don't want Marxists--

110
00:07:01,464 --> 00:07:03,091
I don't want communists teaching my kid."

111
00:07:03,174 --> 00:07:05,510
Complain vocally, loudly.

112
00:07:05,594 --> 00:07:07,304
[protestors chanting] Shame on you!

113
00:07:07,387 --> 00:07:08,597
So you're the racist.

114
00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,309
This is an unlawful arrest!
I have a First Amendment right--

115
00:07:12,392 --> 00:07:13,602
Parents have had it, Jack.

116
00:07:13,685 --> 00:07:16,938
I don't really think I've seen something
spur up with so much passion

117
00:07:17,022 --> 00:07:18,231
out of the grassroots.

118
00:07:18,315 --> 00:07:21,192
It's not grassroots.
You fucking started it.

119
00:07:21,776 --> 00:07:24,696
You lit the fire,
and then, as it was warmed up,

120
00:07:24,779 --> 00:07:27,365
were like, "I've never seen
a fire like this. This is a--"

121
00:07:27,449 --> 00:07:31,745
It's like when a dog vomits on a carpet

122
00:07:33,330 --> 00:07:34,789
and then eats it…

123
00:07:37,167 --> 00:07:38,501
and looks at you like…

124
00:07:39,211 --> 00:07:40,962
[audience chuckles]

125
00:07:41,046 --> 00:07:42,964
Can I get a treat for cleaning that up?

126
00:07:43,048 --> 00:07:44,049
No!

127
00:07:44,716 --> 00:07:47,552
You made the mess in the first place.

128
00:07:48,261 --> 00:07:53,767
Suddenly we're banning CRT,
we're restricting race teaching,

129
00:07:53,850 --> 00:07:55,435
we're banning books.

130
00:07:55,518 --> 00:07:59,189
And Florida has legislation
to make it illegal

131
00:07:59,272 --> 00:08:02,692
for a white person to feel uncomfortable.

132
00:08:03,985 --> 00:08:05,195
In Florida.

133
00:08:05,278 --> 00:08:07,072
[audience laughs]

134
00:08:07,906 --> 00:08:09,908
Good luck arresting humidity.

135
00:08:09,991 --> 00:08:12,244
[audience laughing]

136
00:08:15,705 --> 00:08:18,375
My balls are sticking to my leg.

137
00:08:20,210 --> 00:08:21,503
Officer!

138
00:08:25,382 --> 00:08:27,551
Remove-- All right.

139
00:08:29,177 --> 00:08:31,972
That would be such a bad call
to get over the radio.

140
00:08:32,597 --> 00:08:35,683
Yeah, we got a sticky ball situation
down in, uh…

141
00:08:38,227 --> 00:08:39,437
in Ocala.

142
00:08:41,022 --> 00:08:42,524
The right-wing media,

143
00:08:42,606 --> 00:08:46,653
working seamlessly
with their political arm,

144
00:08:46,736 --> 00:08:48,613
made that happen.

145
00:08:48,697 --> 00:08:49,698
Well, you know, Brian,

146
00:08:49,781 --> 00:08:52,325
we were the only channel
that covered critical race theory,

147
00:08:52,409 --> 00:08:53,952
and that became a big issue.

148
00:08:54,035 --> 00:08:55,495
[guffaws]

149
00:08:57,747 --> 00:08:59,291
[imitating buffoon] Uh, sure did.

150
00:09:00,250 --> 00:09:03,503
[normal] But that's how fucking good
these guys are. That's how good that--

151
00:09:03,587 --> 00:09:07,257
And if you're gonna battle
this coordinated effort,

152
00:09:07,340 --> 00:09:09,885
political and media together,

153
00:09:10,719 --> 00:09:12,053
we're gonna need a hero.

154
00:09:13,346 --> 00:09:18,518
A hero brave enough to heed the call
of a society in grave danger

155
00:09:18,602 --> 00:09:22,564
of succumbing to CRT panic
and "Let's go, Brandon" memes.

156
00:09:25,775 --> 00:09:27,277
Who's that hero?

157
00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,031
There is no democracy without journalism.

158
00:09:31,114 --> 00:09:32,991
Our job is to speak truth to power.

159
00:09:33,074 --> 00:09:36,953
Our job is to shine a light in dark
corners, to hold the powerful to account.

160
00:09:37,037 --> 00:09:39,414
[Tom Hanks] Because knowing empowers us.

161
00:09:40,540 --> 00:09:42,584
Knowing helps us decide.

162
00:09:43,793 --> 00:09:46,630
Knowing keeps us free.

163
00:09:48,256 --> 00:09:51,176
[audience chuckling]

164
00:09:54,846 --> 00:09:57,307
[audience laughing, applauding]

165
00:09:59,184 --> 00:10:00,477
I mean, seriously.

166
00:10:02,812 --> 00:10:06,983
But in an age of weaponized
mis- and disinformation,

167
00:10:07,067 --> 00:10:09,277
secrecy and political polarization,

168
00:10:10,612 --> 00:10:14,157
the one group that stands at the ready
to shine light into that darkness

169
00:10:14,241 --> 00:10:16,284
so that the good ship America

170
00:10:16,368 --> 00:10:21,081
needn't stub its toe on
the post-midnight snack of fascism--

171
00:10:21,164 --> 00:10:22,499
I'm mixing metaphors.

172
00:10:25,335 --> 00:10:26,670
But the point is this.

173
00:10:27,420 --> 00:10:34,219
The fourth estate has claimed that
they stand ready twixt America and peril.

174
00:10:34,302 --> 00:10:36,805
A bulwark to creeping fascism.

175
00:10:37,389 --> 00:10:41,268
Our media,
they are the watchers on the wall.

176
00:10:42,435 --> 00:10:44,854
No, that's the wrong-- Okay, that's--

177
00:10:44,938 --> 00:10:47,983
That's the wrong watcher
and the wrong wall.

178
00:10:49,401 --> 00:10:51,236
That's the wall. That's the watcher.

179
00:10:52,779 --> 00:10:53,780
Yes.

180
00:10:53,863 --> 00:10:56,741
Thank you. "To the ramparts, heroes!"

181
00:10:56,825 --> 00:11:00,078
[shouting] Three, two, one!

182
00:11:00,161 --> 00:11:02,747
[cheering] Happy New Year!

183
00:11:02,831 --> 00:11:04,374
[cheering]

184
00:11:04,457 --> 00:11:06,209
[audience laughing]

185
00:11:12,382 --> 00:11:13,967
Well, America, it's been a pleasure.

186
00:11:15,176 --> 00:11:16,177
We're fucked.

187
00:11:17,220 --> 00:11:18,221
Because unfortunately,

188
00:11:18,305 --> 00:11:21,516
if they are the one thing
that stands between America and chaos,

189
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,018
we are in trouble.

190
00:11:23,101 --> 00:11:28,273
Because rarely has there been
an institution that has such a distance

191
00:11:28,356 --> 00:11:32,277
between its aspirations and its execution.

192
00:11:32,944 --> 00:11:33,987
And thus,

193
00:11:34,070 --> 00:11:39,034
"The Problem with the Media."

194
00:11:40,118 --> 00:11:42,787
The media keeps informing us

195
00:11:42,871 --> 00:11:46,625
how incredibly important they are
to our survival.

196
00:11:47,375 --> 00:11:50,337
Because knowing keeps us free.

197
00:11:50,420 --> 00:11:53,340
But when given
crucial informational tasks,

198
00:11:53,423 --> 00:11:56,051
they instead build us prisons of,

199
00:11:56,134 --> 00:11:58,637
"What the fuck
are you people talking about?"

200
00:11:59,763 --> 00:12:00,972
For instance, a few years back,

201
00:12:01,056 --> 00:12:03,558
there was concern that the president
of these United States

202
00:12:03,642 --> 00:12:07,437
may have outsourced our electoral
integrity to a foreign power…

203
00:12:08,438 --> 00:12:10,607
not of the allied persuasion.

204
00:12:12,275 --> 00:12:14,402
And had fired his top cop

205
00:12:14,486 --> 00:12:17,530
rather than risk the subterfuge
being exposed.

206
00:12:18,448 --> 00:12:22,118
Journey back with me to 20 aught 17.

207
00:12:22,202 --> 00:12:26,373
[imitating flashback music]

208
00:12:26,456 --> 00:12:29,125
Nothing? We don't have any of the--
All right.

209
00:12:29,209 --> 00:12:33,547
The Department of Justice reveals
that they will appoint a special counsel

210
00:12:33,630 --> 00:12:37,008
to now oversee the FBI investigation
into Russian meddling

211
00:12:37,092 --> 00:12:38,802
and any possible collusion.

212
00:12:38,885 --> 00:12:42,514
Former FBI director Robert Mueller
will now lead the investigation.

213
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:44,849
[mutters]

214
00:12:44,933 --> 00:12:46,059
Well done.

215
00:12:46,142 --> 00:12:47,310
You told us what was occurring,

216
00:12:47,394 --> 00:12:49,646
you gave it a tonal gravity
that I thought was appropriate,

217
00:12:49,729 --> 00:12:53,692
and it was delivered
with just the right soupçon of handsome.

218
00:12:53,775 --> 00:12:56,278
It-- It was a very handsome delivery.

219
00:12:57,153 --> 00:12:58,989
So, what happens now?

220
00:12:59,072 --> 00:13:01,825
One, a special counsel
truly works in secret.

221
00:13:01,908 --> 00:13:04,703
And if any special counsel
is gonna obey that rule,

222
00:13:04,786 --> 00:13:05,662
it's a guy like Bob Mueller.

223
00:13:05,745 --> 00:13:07,789
Virtually everything that happens
with the special counsel

224
00:13:07,872 --> 00:13:08,873
happens behind closed doors.

225
00:13:08,957 --> 00:13:11,334
The special counsel investigation,
of course, is secretive.

226
00:13:11,418 --> 00:13:12,836
Robert Mueller does not leak.

227
00:13:12,919 --> 00:13:15,547
Mueller runs a very tight ship.

228
00:13:16,882 --> 00:13:18,258
Once again, I--

229
00:13:18,341 --> 00:13:19,885
I'm sorry. I congratulate you. Well done.

230
00:13:19,968 --> 00:13:23,513
The special counsel works in secret.
That's factual.

231
00:13:23,597 --> 00:13:27,225
Bob Mueller is tight-lipped.
That's slightly subjective, but still.

232
00:13:27,309 --> 00:13:34,316
This segment leaves our democracy's
pulse oximeter at a healthy 97, 98.

233
00:13:34,399 --> 00:13:35,400
Bobby Mueller.

234
00:13:36,484 --> 00:13:38,320
"Bobby Three Sticks,"
as agents called him.

235
00:13:38,403 --> 00:13:40,488
- [reporter] Why'd they call him that?
- Robert Swan Mueller III.

236
00:13:41,323 --> 00:13:43,658
[audience chuckles]

237
00:13:43,742 --> 00:13:46,244
And slowly, the oxygen drops.

238
00:13:47,621 --> 00:13:50,540
And thus began the turn to darkness.

239
00:13:50,624 --> 00:13:54,252
Let the overplaying
of the media's hand commence.

240
00:13:54,336 --> 00:13:55,629
If you do have something to hide,

241
00:13:55,712 --> 00:13:58,590
Mueller is probably the last person
you would want to be investigating you.

242
00:13:58,673 --> 00:14:00,550
Bob Mueller is gonna
investigate this aggressively,

243
00:14:00,634 --> 00:14:02,469
and if there's any wrongdoing,
he's gonna find it.

244
00:14:02,552 --> 00:14:05,722
Director Mueller, uh,
is gonna get to the bottom of it.

245
00:14:05,805 --> 00:14:06,640
He will find it.

246
00:14:06,723 --> 00:14:10,518
If you have a kid and you despair
that there's not a hero in America,

247
00:14:10,602 --> 00:14:13,605
wake up bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.
Robert Mueller's it.

248
00:14:13,688 --> 00:14:18,193
The republic just got
a chance of saving itself.

249
00:14:19,277 --> 00:14:21,613
We're not on fucking Tatooine.

250
00:14:21,696 --> 00:14:23,698
[audience laughs]

251
00:14:23,782 --> 00:14:26,243
We're not looking for a child of prophecy.

252
00:14:26,326 --> 00:14:30,872
We need a competent prosecutor
working diligently to find the facts.

253
00:14:30,956 --> 00:14:34,876
And we don't need you
narrating and overblowing

254
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,880
and elevating the stakes of every moment.

255
00:14:38,964 --> 00:14:41,883
This is Watergate.

256
00:14:41,967 --> 00:14:43,134
Watergate, basically.

257
00:14:43,218 --> 00:14:46,096
The peril to the president
is just as great.

258
00:14:46,179 --> 00:14:47,597
Is this bigger than Watergate?

259
00:14:47,681 --> 00:14:50,559
In some ways, this could be
worse than Watergate.

260
00:14:50,642 --> 00:14:54,187
Well, you know, Bernstein,
certainly the coverage of it will be.

261
00:14:54,271 --> 00:14:55,564
[grumbles]

262
00:14:56,982 --> 00:15:01,152
Even though it was
already explained very clearly…

263
00:15:01,236 --> 00:15:04,864
"The special counsel operates in secret."

264
00:15:04,948 --> 00:15:08,118
"Bob Mueller plays it close to the vest."

265
00:15:08,201 --> 00:15:14,833
It did not stop the public from being
dead center in the information blast zone.

266
00:15:15,333 --> 00:15:17,294
[reporter]
A bombshell from Robert Mueller.

267
00:15:17,377 --> 00:15:19,254
This is not some Friday night news dump.

268
00:15:19,337 --> 00:15:22,048
This is a Friday night explosion.

269
00:15:22,132 --> 00:15:23,466
Bombshell after bombshell.

270
00:15:23,550 --> 00:15:26,469
…latest bombshell
in an arsenal of bombshells…

271
00:15:26,553 --> 00:15:28,388
[reporter]
Robert Mueller's twin bombshells.

272
00:15:28,471 --> 00:15:30,849
[all] Bombshell. Bombshell. Bombshell.

273
00:15:30,932 --> 00:15:33,018
…a potentially huge bombshell…

274
00:15:33,101 --> 00:15:35,645
…bombshell from The New York Times.

275
00:15:35,729 --> 00:15:37,147
The paper of record is reporting

276
00:15:37,230 --> 00:15:40,859
special counsel Robert Mueller has
dozens of questions for President Trump.

277
00:15:41,443 --> 00:15:43,236
Bombshell, bombshell.

278
00:15:43,945 --> 00:15:49,534
Detective has questions. Bombshell.
Hungry people like food. Bombshell.

279
00:15:51,161 --> 00:15:52,370
I also have a question.

280
00:15:52,454 --> 00:15:54,581
Do you think we are fucking stupid?

281
00:15:56,124 --> 00:16:00,086
That's the responsible, measured way
they handled something they actually knew.

282
00:16:01,379 --> 00:16:03,298
Then it started getting weird.

283
00:16:03,381 --> 00:16:07,636
Folks, this could be a game changer
if this report is true.

284
00:16:07,719 --> 00:16:12,182
On one to ten, how big are these
developments? If, in your view, true.

285
00:16:12,265 --> 00:16:15,727
No one should underestimate
how big this is if it's true.

286
00:16:15,810 --> 00:16:17,395
[reporter] Really big deal if true.

287
00:16:17,479 --> 00:16:21,691
If true, is it a big deal?
What else does it speak of?

288
00:16:21,775 --> 00:16:25,820
If it is true, it would appear to be
significant evidence of collusion.

289
00:16:25,904 --> 00:16:27,155
If true--

290
00:16:27,239 --> 00:16:29,991
If the report is proven true--
We have not confirmed it.

291
00:16:30,075 --> 00:16:32,619
No other major news organization
has confirmed it.

292
00:16:32,702 --> 00:16:36,456
But if it's true, what does it mean,
big picture, for the Trump presidency?

293
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:38,541
Well, the Trump presidency would be over.

294
00:16:38,625 --> 00:16:40,877
Is there a multiplier you use

295
00:16:40,961 --> 00:16:46,716
that, uh, X times what we know equals
what you imagine Mueller knows?

296
00:16:47,384 --> 00:16:49,010
Yes, yes, there is. There--

297
00:16:49,094 --> 00:16:50,679
I know this equation.

298
00:16:50,762 --> 00:16:55,016
It's the thing when you make
your calculator spell "boobies."

299
00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:56,142
[audience laughing, applauding]

300
00:16:56,226 --> 00:16:59,813
You press it in, you press the thing,
and then you turn it over.

301
00:17:00,814 --> 00:17:04,693
And you show your friends
it says "boobies."

302
00:17:06,987 --> 00:17:10,574
There were so many "if trues" in there,
it was like a high-stakes tarot reading.

303
00:17:10,657 --> 00:17:11,741
But you know what?

304
00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:15,370
It's not like any other important news
happened in 2019.

305
00:17:15,453 --> 00:17:18,707
That's why they had the resources
to do things like this.

306
00:17:18,790 --> 00:17:21,834
The CNN stakeout team says they haven't
seen Mueller leave for lunch today.

307
00:17:21,918 --> 00:17:23,169
He usually does.

308
00:17:26,171 --> 00:17:27,549
My God, no lunch.

309
00:17:29,259 --> 00:17:31,344
Could he have packed a sammie from home?

310
00:17:31,428 --> 00:17:33,179
[audience chuckles]

311
00:17:35,432 --> 00:17:38,852
But, ultimately, after two years
of speculation and innuendo

312
00:17:38,935 --> 00:17:42,939
and flat-out bullshit,
they were sure of one thing.

313
00:17:43,023 --> 00:17:46,192
If you're Donald Trump,
the news does not appear to be good.

314
00:17:46,276 --> 00:17:50,280
"The walls are closing in"
might be a better way to put it.

315
00:17:50,363 --> 00:17:51,656
…walls closing in on him.

316
00:17:51,740 --> 00:17:54,075
- Walls are closing in--
- The walls closing in--

317
00:17:54,159 --> 00:17:57,120
- …closer and closer…
- …closer and closer…

318
00:17:57,203 --> 00:17:58,872
…closer and closer to the president.

319
00:17:58,955 --> 00:18:01,374
It does appear like we're getting closer.
Closer to the top.

320
00:18:03,460 --> 00:18:06,338
That actually didn't appear like
they were getting closer. That last one.

321
00:18:06,421 --> 00:18:08,423
It seemed like there was a big gap
that he could get out.

322
00:18:08,506 --> 00:18:10,258
It looked like he could get out
the top on that one.

323
00:18:10,342 --> 00:18:11,968
The other ones, I thought yes.

324
00:18:13,386 --> 00:18:16,223
And the news media promised,

325
00:18:16,306 --> 00:18:19,976
promised that it was gonna be
a finale to remember.

326
00:18:20,060 --> 00:18:22,729
Now there is talk
of indicting the president.

327
00:18:22,812 --> 00:18:25,523
Now there is talk
of jail time for the president.

328
00:18:25,607 --> 00:18:27,359
This is going to be earth-shattering.

329
00:18:27,442 --> 00:18:30,654
There is just no way
that this is not going to be

330
00:18:30,737 --> 00:18:33,907
one of the most significant events
in the history of the United States.

331
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:37,744
If anybody from the Trump family,
extended family, is going to be indicted,

332
00:18:37,827 --> 00:18:40,747
it would be in the final act.

333
00:18:40,830 --> 00:18:42,082
- The noose is tightening.
- They are--

334
00:18:42,165 --> 00:18:43,583
And that people might go to jail.

335
00:18:43,667 --> 00:18:45,669
- You're exactly right. Th--
- For the rest of their lives.

336
00:18:48,588 --> 00:18:49,673
If true.

337
00:18:50,924 --> 00:18:55,637
And then, after two years of just edging
themselves to a Mueller climax…

338
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,889
[scattered laughter]

339
00:18:59,599 --> 00:19:01,309
[audience laughing]

340
00:19:02,477 --> 00:19:05,146
Interesting audience of fetishists
we have in here.

341
00:19:05,230 --> 00:19:06,481
[audience laughs]

342
00:19:07,941 --> 00:19:09,985
That's kind of a bombshell
in and of itself.

343
00:19:11,695 --> 00:19:15,407
There's a lot of-- lot of knowing
edging joke people in here.

344
00:19:19,411 --> 00:19:20,787
The-- [laughs]

345
00:19:20,870 --> 00:19:22,747
[audience laughs]

346
00:19:22,831 --> 00:19:24,958
Dirty, dirty motherfuckers.

347
00:19:25,041 --> 00:19:26,418
[audience applauding]

348
00:19:26,501 --> 00:19:27,711
You know, you can't…

349
00:19:29,838 --> 00:19:32,132
When they're wearing masks,
you can't really tell.

350
00:19:33,466 --> 00:19:36,052
It's like the opposite of Eyes Wide Shut.
It's just--

351
00:19:37,512 --> 00:19:39,180
I don't even know
what we're talking about anymore.

352
00:19:39,264 --> 00:19:40,557
Yes.

353
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,934
Getting back to our subject at hand.

354
00:19:43,018 --> 00:19:46,479
After two years of edging themselves
to a Mueller climax…

355
00:19:46,563 --> 00:19:48,899
[audience laughing]

356
00:19:48,982 --> 00:19:51,526
…the day finally arrived.

357
00:19:51,610 --> 00:19:54,779
CNN's special coverage
of the release of the Mueller report

358
00:19:54,863 --> 00:19:56,948
begins tomorrow morning, 6:00 a.m.

359
00:19:57,032 --> 00:19:59,743
Ticktock, ticktock. We should have
a Mueller clock down there.

360
00:19:59,826 --> 00:20:01,536
- Right.
- We're just about two hours away--

361
00:20:01,620 --> 00:20:03,580
[reporter]
This is people waiting for the report.

362
00:20:03,663 --> 00:20:05,123
It is 11:05 a.m.

363
00:20:05,206 --> 00:20:08,126
The attorney general said
that at 11:00 a.m. eastern time

364
00:20:08,209 --> 00:20:10,712
this report would be handed,
uh, to Congress.

365
00:20:10,795 --> 00:20:11,963
Melber, do you have it?

366
00:20:12,047 --> 00:20:13,840
It-- It is up. Uh, is it online?

367
00:20:13,924 --> 00:20:16,384
- And it's been posted. It is online.
- Okay.

368
00:20:17,302 --> 00:20:18,303
[audience laughs]

369
00:20:18,386 --> 00:20:21,139
You can go to www.justice.gov

370
00:20:21,223 --> 00:20:25,477
and I think it's, uh, /storage/report.pdf.

371
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,605
Be ready, uh, in terms of toner and paper.

372
00:20:33,568 --> 00:20:34,945
We have to print it ourselves?

373
00:20:36,780 --> 00:20:39,324
NBC doesn't have a Kinko's?
Is that what you're telling me?

374
00:20:39,407 --> 00:20:44,329
You finally have real breaking news,
and I have to get it myself?

375
00:20:44,412 --> 00:20:45,830
I'm gonna read it live here with you.

376
00:20:46,915 --> 00:20:50,377
Kind sir, I beg of you, no.

377
00:20:51,127 --> 00:20:53,713
What I'm reading here is
the beginning of the treatment of this.

378
00:20:53,797 --> 00:20:56,508
And we're gonna go
as we go live today, Brian.

379
00:20:56,591 --> 00:20:58,885
Uh, but Bob Mueller defining, in order--

380
00:20:58,969 --> 00:21:03,974
On page 76 of volume two, uh,
Mueller offers a theory.

381
00:21:04,057 --> 00:21:05,392
The president, quote--

382
00:21:05,475 --> 00:21:09,896
"The president wanted to protect himself
from an investigation into his campaign."

383
00:21:10,772 --> 00:21:12,774
Okay. Now, keep listening.

384
00:21:12,857 --> 00:21:15,402
448 pages. Who can claim victory?

385
00:21:21,074 --> 00:21:24,411
He said at the end, "It's 400 pages.

386
00:21:25,620 --> 00:21:27,455
Who can declare victory here?"

387
00:21:29,249 --> 00:21:30,792
I believe Satan can.

388
00:21:32,502 --> 00:21:37,841
You motherfuckers spent two years
filled with breaking bombshells

389
00:21:37,924 --> 00:21:39,801
and urgent explosions

390
00:21:39,885 --> 00:21:43,805
and teed up a season finale for the ages.

391
00:21:43,889 --> 00:21:50,437
A noose-tightened,
closed-walled, family-style jailgasm.

392
00:21:51,187 --> 00:21:56,651
And all we got was a fucking book report
that we had to print ourselves.

393
00:21:56,735 --> 00:21:58,361
[audience laughs]

394
00:21:59,988 --> 00:22:03,533
I owe the producers of Lost an apology.

395
00:22:03,617 --> 00:22:05,410
[audience laughing, applauding]

396
00:22:05,493 --> 00:22:12,083
This was the worst finale… ever.

397
00:22:12,918 --> 00:22:15,837
And maybe
it would have landed more dramatically

398
00:22:15,921 --> 00:22:21,635
if you hadn't already reported on Trump AG
Bill Barr's Mueller report SparkNotes

399
00:22:21,718 --> 00:22:23,011
a month earlier.

400
00:22:23,094 --> 00:22:24,804
Major victory for President Trump.

401
00:22:24,888 --> 00:22:26,973
The summary now
from the attorney general, who said,

402
00:22:27,057 --> 00:22:30,393
"Mueller and his team found
no collusion, no conspiracy."

403
00:22:30,477 --> 00:22:33,188
Big, big win for this president.

404
00:22:33,271 --> 00:22:34,940
All the questions surrounded
the president--

405
00:22:35,023 --> 00:22:36,900
Did he obstruct justice?
They just cleared him.

406
00:22:36,983 --> 00:22:37,943
They've cleared the president.

407
00:22:38,777 --> 00:22:42,447
And the craziest part is,
throughout the entire time,

408
00:22:42,530 --> 00:22:45,992
great reporters were doing
impressive work,

409
00:22:46,076 --> 00:22:47,786
but you wouldn't know it

410
00:22:47,869 --> 00:22:54,251
because it was all smothered
in so much news cum.

411
00:22:54,334 --> 00:22:57,337
[audience laughing]

412
00:23:06,304 --> 00:23:10,183
And if anything is going to kill
our democracy,

413
00:23:11,268 --> 00:23:13,436
it's gonna be news cum.

414
00:23:15,397 --> 00:23:16,815
Take a quick look at this.

415
00:23:18,024 --> 00:23:19,484
Good evening. We start with breaking news.

416
00:23:19,568 --> 00:23:21,027
- Breaking news.
- Breaking news.

417
00:23:21,111 --> 00:23:22,070
- We make…
- …money…

418
00:23:22,153 --> 00:23:23,280
- …when you…
- …watch the news.

419
00:23:23,363 --> 00:23:24,698
- So our…
- …only goal…

420
00:23:24,781 --> 00:23:25,657
- …is to…
- …try to keep…

421
00:23:25,740 --> 00:23:26,741
- …you…
- …watching.

422
00:23:27,742 --> 00:23:29,995
- We, the media…
- …want you…

423
00:23:30,078 --> 00:23:32,080
- …afraid and…
- …angry at one another.

424
00:23:32,163 --> 00:23:33,582
- We wanna…
- …stir up trouble.

425
00:23:33,665 --> 00:23:34,958
- We do that…
- …through stories…

426
00:23:35,041 --> 00:23:36,751
- …promoting…
- …fear and outrage.

427
00:23:36,835 --> 00:23:38,420
Every night. This is what we do.

428
00:23:39,337 --> 00:23:41,673
- Plus, we have…
- …some snazzy graphics for you with…

429
00:23:41,756 --> 00:23:42,841
…all the bells and whistles…

430
00:23:42,924 --> 00:23:43,967
- …so we can…
- …convince you that…

431
00:23:44,050 --> 00:23:45,468
- …every story…
- …is urgent…

432
00:23:45,552 --> 00:23:47,220
- …even if it isn't true…
- …because…

433
00:23:47,304 --> 00:23:49,556
- …it helps make sure that…
- …our ratings are higher than ever.

434
00:23:49,639 --> 00:23:51,808
Right? I mean,
it's been easy money for so long.

435
00:23:53,894 --> 00:23:56,396
[audience cheering, applauding]

436
00:23:56,479 --> 00:23:57,480
Hello.

437
00:24:01,276 --> 00:24:05,488
Welcome back now.
Uh, I hope you enjoyed that.

438
00:24:05,572 --> 00:24:11,286
The media is such an important part
of, uh, a democracy's immune system.

439
00:24:11,369 --> 00:24:15,832
But can the saviors of our democracy
be saved themselves?

440
00:24:16,416 --> 00:24:18,752
We've convened a panel of media insiders

441
00:24:18,835 --> 00:24:23,173
to talk more about why this happens
and what we can do to hopefully fix it.

442
00:24:23,256 --> 00:24:27,010
We've got Chris Stirewalt, who is
a former politics editor at Fox News,

443
00:24:27,093 --> 00:24:29,054
and now he's a contributing editor
at The Dispatch.

444
00:24:29,137 --> 00:24:33,558
We've got Sean McLaughlin,
vice president of news at E.W. Scripps,

445
00:24:33,642 --> 00:24:35,060
which owns 60 local news stations.

446
00:24:35,143 --> 00:24:36,144
And joining us remotely,

447
00:24:36,228 --> 00:24:39,481
Soledad O'Brien,
who is a former anchor at CNN and NBC

448
00:24:39,564 --> 00:24:42,442
and now founded her own
multiplatform production company.

449
00:24:42,525 --> 00:24:45,237
Thank you guys so much for joining us.

450
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,405
[audience cheering, applauding]

451
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:54,621
The reason why I chose the Mueller report
to kind of do the autopsy on was

452
00:24:54,704 --> 00:24:57,958
they talked a lot about the disappointment
in the Mueller report,

453
00:24:58,041 --> 00:25:03,588
but that disappointment was the fruit
of the seed that they planted.

454
00:25:04,172 --> 00:25:10,428
And doesn't that kind of reporting
overwhelm and cancel out

455
00:25:10,512 --> 00:25:16,476
all the other really interesting and smart
and considered reporting that exists?

456
00:25:17,227 --> 00:25:20,897
The problem is that
we've become moral imbeciles

457
00:25:20,981 --> 00:25:22,399
- as we are being…
- Ah!

458
00:25:22,482 --> 00:25:25,485
…spoon-fed little pieces of outrage
day by day.

459
00:25:25,569 --> 00:25:27,487
No, stay with the story.
No, stay with the story.

460
00:25:27,571 --> 00:25:30,282
You can't lose any number.
That's the problem.

461
00:25:30,365 --> 00:25:33,285
The death knell is
if your numbers go down.

462
00:25:33,368 --> 00:25:36,580
That's why we only get
one story at a time.

463
00:25:36,663 --> 00:25:38,999
Producers know that that will work
and that will rate,

464
00:25:39,082 --> 00:25:41,418
so we're gonna stick with the thing
that people are expecting

465
00:25:41,501 --> 00:25:42,502
and that they know.

466
00:25:42,586 --> 00:25:45,005
'Cause if you take it away from them,
they may get mad,

467
00:25:45,088 --> 00:25:47,716
the number may go down,
and they may go someplace else to get it.

468
00:25:47,799 --> 00:25:51,761
So as long as the delta--
the ratings increase from yesterday,

469
00:25:51,845 --> 00:25:54,514
uh, keeps going, you're gonna
obviously keep doing that story,

470
00:25:54,598 --> 00:25:56,308
but you've gotta milk it
a little bit more.

471
00:25:56,391 --> 00:26:00,145
You know, you get a minute-by-minute
ratings printout. [chuckles]

472
00:26:00,228 --> 00:26:01,938
You know exactly what your--

473
00:26:02,022 --> 00:26:04,232
You get a minute-by-minute
ratings printout at CNN?

474
00:26:04,316 --> 00:26:05,817
Everywhere, not just at CNN.

475
00:26:05,901 --> 00:26:08,695
And it's called the minute-by-minutes.
You know exactly--

476
00:26:08,778 --> 00:26:12,157
You can tell, what story was I in
when the ratings went up

477
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,619
and what story-- Uh, look, at the end
of the hour we lost a bunch of people.

478
00:26:15,702 --> 00:26:18,330
Whatever that was, figure out,
we should never do that again.

479
00:26:18,413 --> 00:26:20,248
- They will say it explicitly?
- [O'Brien] Yes.

480
00:26:20,332 --> 00:26:21,541
They will say that's a dog.

481
00:26:21,625 --> 00:26:26,546
People left on that Afghanistan story,
so fuck that.

482
00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:29,257
- We're not doing that again.
- We can't lead with Afghanistan.

483
00:26:29,341 --> 00:26:30,383
It just kills us.

484
00:26:30,467 --> 00:26:32,928
We can't lead with Afghanistan.
Look at those numbers.

485
00:26:33,011 --> 00:26:37,349
I think what people don't realize is,
it's a ratings-driven business.

486
00:26:38,058 --> 00:26:40,560
But it's also driven by meetings.

487
00:26:40,644 --> 00:26:44,314
People have meetings
and make decisions every day

488
00:26:44,856 --> 00:26:48,777
that affect the tone,
tenor and direction of coverage.

489
00:26:49,277 --> 00:26:50,737
- Is that spoken about…
- Yeah.

490
00:26:50,820 --> 00:26:55,617
…explicitly in the newsroom
like when you were at CNN?

491
00:26:55,700 --> 00:26:57,202
[O'Brien]
Yeah, there are tons of meetings.

492
00:26:57,285 --> 00:26:59,079
You have meetings
that set the agenda for the network,

493
00:26:59,162 --> 00:27:01,122
that set the agenda for the morning shows,

494
00:27:01,206 --> 00:27:03,458
that are gonna set
the evening show agendas.

495
00:27:03,541 --> 00:27:05,710
You have to divvy up
who's gonna have which guests,

496
00:27:05,794 --> 00:27:09,339
because you can't have everybody shared
on every single show.

497
00:27:09,422 --> 00:27:12,092
And then the shows themselves
have specific meetings.

498
00:27:12,175 --> 00:27:14,761
What are we gonna start with?
What are we gonna end with?

499
00:27:14,844 --> 00:27:16,596
Who's the guest? How long do they get?

500
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,808
I think this idea of
"You know, hey, we just report the news"

501
00:27:19,891 --> 00:27:24,437
is, um, ridiculous,
because of course it's a zero-sum game.

502
00:27:24,521 --> 00:27:26,398
If you're covering something,

503
00:27:26,481 --> 00:27:29,234
then that means you're not giving coverage
to something else.

504
00:27:29,317 --> 00:27:31,778
- Right. It strikes me that Fox…
- Mmm.

505
00:27:31,861 --> 00:27:33,071
You worked there for a while.

506
00:27:33,154 --> 00:27:36,408
You were, uh--
You removed yourself from it after you--

507
00:27:36,491 --> 00:27:38,451
- Well, they removed me. [laughs]
- They removed you.

508
00:27:38,535 --> 00:27:40,829
- For those of you who don't know--
- They shot me out of a cannon.

509
00:27:40,912 --> 00:27:42,706
- Chris, uh--
- [laughing]

510
00:27:42,789 --> 00:27:44,165
He was on the election desk.

511
00:27:44,249 --> 00:27:46,293
He called Arizona for Biden

512
00:27:46,376 --> 00:27:50,088
because Biden had gotten
more votes there, which…

513
00:27:50,171 --> 00:27:51,256
[audience applauding]

514
00:27:51,339 --> 00:27:54,759
…uh, was an enormous error in judgment.

515
00:27:54,843 --> 00:27:56,678
- And I think we all agree--
- Our bad, our bad.

516
00:27:58,597 --> 00:28:01,266
With Fox, in some respects,
during the election

517
00:28:01,349 --> 00:28:03,894
they got primaried from the right
to some extent.

518
00:28:03,977 --> 00:28:05,604
OAN and Newsmax came in and said,

519
00:28:05,687 --> 00:28:08,690
[chuckling]
"You think that's crazy? Listen to this."

520
00:28:08,773 --> 00:28:12,861
And it looks like Fox, after being
primaried from the right, went,

521
00:28:13,653 --> 00:28:14,487
"We're gonna--

522
00:28:14,571 --> 00:28:18,325
We're just gonna knock the legs out
from under our competitors

523
00:28:18,408 --> 00:28:22,662
by just embracing that
in a much more pure way."

524
00:28:22,746 --> 00:28:26,791
The truth is, social media provides
a morphine drip

525
00:28:26,875 --> 00:28:28,585
for these producers to keep them like,

526
00:28:28,668 --> 00:28:30,545
"Okay, we're in the zone.
This is what the people want."

527
00:28:30,629 --> 00:28:32,005
They're following social media.

528
00:28:32,088 --> 00:28:36,593
They're actually
on Twitter and Facebook, going,

529
00:28:36,676 --> 00:28:38,929
"What are these people up in arms about?"

530
00:28:39,012 --> 00:28:40,722
That's right.
And they can say in a meeting,

531
00:28:40,805 --> 00:28:42,807
"Oh, this is really clicking today.
This is really going.

532
00:28:42,891 --> 00:28:44,684
This got a bunch"-- Holy crokinole.

533
00:28:44,768 --> 00:28:47,229
You can see a television news story
in which people are like,

534
00:28:47,312 --> 00:28:50,649
"This-- This idiot said this
about this idiot on Twitter,"

535
00:28:50,732 --> 00:28:52,359
and they treat it
like it's a whole news story.

536
00:28:52,442 --> 00:28:54,861
So it has permeated the thinking
in very profound ways,

537
00:28:54,945 --> 00:28:56,112
and it's made us dumber.

538
00:28:56,613 --> 00:29:00,450
I really like that you used
the expression "holy crokinole."

539
00:29:00,533 --> 00:29:01,701
[all laughing]

540
00:29:01,785 --> 00:29:04,037
It is an expression I've never heard.

541
00:29:04,537 --> 00:29:09,542
And I will be adding it
to my vocabulary to replace "fuck."

542
00:29:09,626 --> 00:29:12,128
- [Stirewalt laughing]
- [audience laughing, applauding]

543
00:29:13,380 --> 00:29:19,844
But-- But it strikes me that Fox
wouldn't be as "that's a dog" news-wise.

544
00:29:19,928 --> 00:29:25,225
It's more like, "That doesn't fit
our audience's bloodlust."

545
00:29:25,308 --> 00:29:30,272
[stammers] I think the two things go
to the same end in this way.

546
00:29:30,355 --> 00:29:33,275
Uh, Fox is a much--
I was there for ten years.

547
00:29:33,358 --> 00:29:34,359
When I started,

548
00:29:34,442 --> 00:29:37,028
in a news division meeting,
if you talked about the ratings,

549
00:29:37,112 --> 00:29:38,655
it would have been gross.

550
00:29:38,738 --> 00:29:40,699
Uh, by the time I left, I heard show--

551
00:29:40,782 --> 00:29:43,410
I heard producers
and people in the news division

552
00:29:43,493 --> 00:29:45,537
talking openly about ratings this,
ratings that.

553
00:29:45,620 --> 00:29:48,164
- Did they get the minute-by-minutes?
- [Stirewalt] Some people did.

554
00:29:48,248 --> 00:29:52,294
And that actually-- The diffusion
of those reports changed over time,

555
00:29:52,377 --> 00:29:54,546
and it became much more ratings-driven.

556
00:29:54,629 --> 00:30:00,677
So, basically, what the news is saying
to us is, "This isn't our fault.

557
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,304
It's your fault."

558
00:30:02,387 --> 00:30:07,267
They are outsourcing
the responsibility of news gathering

559
00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:11,396
and-- and news telling to--

560
00:30:11,479 --> 00:30:14,357
"Well, if they would watch better stuff,
we'd show them that."

561
00:30:14,441 --> 00:30:16,192
But that's not the audience.

562
00:30:16,276 --> 00:30:17,986
- They're connected.
- That's not the audience.

563
00:30:18,069 --> 00:30:21,031
That's-- That's someone's view
of the audience, right?

564
00:30:21,114 --> 00:30:24,868
There's someone in an office who says,
"Listen. Young people.

565
00:30:24,951 --> 00:30:27,495
- I guess that means"--
- No, I-- I understand that.

566
00:30:27,579 --> 00:30:31,291
But it takes a long time
to figure out what the audience wants.

567
00:30:31,374 --> 00:30:33,877
And I-- When I first started
at The Daily Show, right?

568
00:30:34,753 --> 00:30:38,131
They were really on us
to do a lot of pop culture shit.

569
00:30:39,799 --> 00:30:42,928
And I was-- This was my last shot in TV,
and I knew it.

570
00:30:43,011 --> 00:30:45,805
I was 35. I'd been down the road a ton.

571
00:30:46,765 --> 00:30:49,476
And what I said to them was,
"Let's make a deal.

572
00:30:50,018 --> 00:30:52,437
Let me do the thing that I believe in.

573
00:30:53,355 --> 00:30:58,109
And if it sucks,
and it doesn't sell you enough beer,

574
00:30:58,193 --> 00:30:59,861
you can fire me."

575
00:30:59,945 --> 00:31:04,366
In other words,
we developed a thing that we believed in.

576
00:31:04,449 --> 00:31:07,369
And the audience showed up.

577
00:31:07,452 --> 00:31:11,581
Rather than doing research
on what the audience wanted…

578
00:31:11,665 --> 00:31:13,917
- [audience applauding]
- …and backing into it.

579
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,379
And there are so many

580
00:31:17,462 --> 00:31:21,299
good, talented, passionate journalists

581
00:31:21,383 --> 00:31:27,597
that are getting the life sucked
out of them by a system that is backwards.

582
00:31:27,681 --> 00:31:29,015
Is that-- Is that correct?

583
00:31:29,099 --> 00:31:30,934
Let me throw out
a different narrative on this.

584
00:31:31,017 --> 00:31:32,686
Holy crokinole. It's about time.

585
00:31:32,769 --> 00:31:33,687
[all laughing]

586
00:31:33,770 --> 00:31:37,482
I think what this is really about is
a lack of courage of changing the model.

587
00:31:37,566 --> 00:31:39,317
The part about the minute-by-minutes,

588
00:31:39,401 --> 00:31:43,989
you're looking at data that is already
incredibly flawed from the beginning.

589
00:31:44,072 --> 00:31:46,116
- And the more--
- What data? Where do they get their data?

590
00:31:46,199 --> 00:31:49,703
Well, Nielsen provides ratings
for most broadcast products.

591
00:31:49,786 --> 00:31:51,246
- [Stewart] Nielsen?
- Yeah.

592
00:31:51,329 --> 00:31:54,249
The group from the '50s
with the book that you write in?

593
00:31:54,332 --> 00:31:58,169
Well, but-- And the main theory behind
their methodology hasn't changed any.

594
00:31:58,253 --> 00:32:00,171
In the '70s and '80s,
when you had the dials

595
00:32:00,255 --> 00:32:02,924
and there was five options,
it-it worked pretty well.

596
00:32:03,008 --> 00:32:05,552
Now look at what's happening.
You have hyperfragmentation.

597
00:32:05,635 --> 00:32:07,596
You have people consuming content
all the time

598
00:32:07,679 --> 00:32:09,848
on all kinds
of different devices and platforms,

599
00:32:09,931 --> 00:32:11,224
and it just hasn't kept up.

600
00:32:11,308 --> 00:32:14,269
So now you take that data, you start
splicing it down to minute-by-minute.

601
00:32:14,352 --> 00:32:16,146
You take bad data,
make it smaller and focused.

602
00:32:16,229 --> 00:32:17,314
[stammers] You got nothing.

603
00:32:17,397 --> 00:32:20,609
How in their right mind
has nobody stepped back and said,

604
00:32:20,692 --> 00:32:24,487
"You know, uh, Nielsen ratings
are often written on papyrus."

605
00:32:24,571 --> 00:32:27,365
And at some point
you just start realizing,

606
00:32:27,449 --> 00:32:30,660
I wonder if what we're looking at
has any degree of realism at all.

607
00:32:30,744 --> 00:32:33,663
I think it's about systems.
Like, well, listen, I'm in the system.

608
00:32:33,747 --> 00:32:35,081
And this is how the system is.

609
00:32:35,165 --> 00:32:36,583
And if I would like to get paid--

610
00:32:36,666 --> 00:32:38,960
continue to be paid
the money that I'm making,

611
00:32:39,044 --> 00:32:41,713
which is seriously good money,

612
00:32:41,796 --> 00:32:43,256
do I really want to fight the system?

613
00:32:43,340 --> 00:32:46,509
I think for most of the journalists
working there when I was there,

614
00:32:46,593 --> 00:32:49,304
they love journalism as I did, and I do,

615
00:32:49,387 --> 00:32:52,599
but I think, you know, it-- [sighs]

616
00:32:52,682 --> 00:32:55,894
The mission was to do
the best work that you could do and win.

617
00:32:55,977 --> 00:32:57,854
You know, win is in the ratings.

618
00:32:57,938 --> 00:33:01,066
Win is making sure that you're
getting picked up by The New York Times.

619
00:33:01,149 --> 00:33:03,485
Win is not about educating the public.

620
00:33:03,568 --> 00:33:05,278
It's not so complicated.

621
00:33:05,362 --> 00:33:08,406
Real Housewives is a really good model.
The reality show, right?

622
00:33:08,490 --> 00:33:11,618
This idea, the person who's
willing to go there, go over-the-top,

623
00:33:11,701 --> 00:33:14,412
they become better known.
They get paid more money.

624
00:33:14,496 --> 00:33:15,664
It's successful.

625
00:33:15,747 --> 00:33:17,958
Your guests who are willing
to go over-the-top,

626
00:33:18,041 --> 00:33:21,169
the person who's willing to say
the thing no one's willing to say,

627
00:33:21,253 --> 00:33:22,963
that person is good TV.

628
00:33:23,046 --> 00:33:25,674
If they're good TV
then they're gonna get booked.

629
00:33:25,757 --> 00:33:27,175
Well, cable's moved to opinion.

630
00:33:27,259 --> 00:33:30,095
You know, what's the difference
between opinion and what's the news?

631
00:33:30,178 --> 00:33:31,763
Local's never gotten into that game.

632
00:33:31,846 --> 00:33:34,391
And thank God. I think it's
one of the things that's gonna save us.

633
00:33:34,474 --> 00:33:36,601
[O'Brien] Local news has not really done

634
00:33:36,685 --> 00:33:39,062
what cable news
has made an art out of, right,

635
00:33:39,145 --> 00:33:42,649
which is the-- the chaos as good TV.

636
00:33:42,732 --> 00:33:44,401
Local news has to--

637
00:33:44,484 --> 00:33:47,362
To serve the people watching,
they have to cover the community.

638
00:33:47,445 --> 00:33:49,531
They can't just have two people
screaming at each other

639
00:33:49,614 --> 00:33:52,033
for four minutes and say,
"Gentlemen, thank you for joining us.

640
00:33:52,117 --> 00:33:53,243
We appreciate your time."

641
00:33:53,326 --> 00:33:55,453
Yeah. I mean, I just think you're watching

642
00:33:55,537 --> 00:33:57,664
a different local news broadcast
than I am.

643
00:33:57,747 --> 00:34:01,334
Because from when I watch local news,

644
00:34:01,418 --> 00:34:03,837
it's basically just a quick run-up

645
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,465
of, uh, who's raping what
and who's murdering who.

646
00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:11,010
And then I get a little bit of something
on the Giants and the weather.

647
00:34:11,094 --> 00:34:12,137
- But if you…
- But--

648
00:34:12,220 --> 00:34:14,681
But if you look--
But this is exactly the top two reasons

649
00:34:14,764 --> 00:34:17,099
people don't watch local news,
for those who've gotten away from it.

650
00:34:17,182 --> 00:34:19,853
Number one, it makes me feel poorly
about my community.

651
00:34:19,936 --> 00:34:21,521
And number two, it stresses me out.

652
00:34:21,605 --> 00:34:22,939
Those are things we can fix.

653
00:34:23,023 --> 00:34:25,025
Every day when we decide
what goes in our newscasts,

654
00:34:25,108 --> 00:34:26,693
we have the ability
to change that narrative.

655
00:34:26,776 --> 00:34:28,612
Again, it's gonna take a while
to get there--

656
00:34:28,695 --> 00:34:30,780
Fluff is powerful, and fluff is bad.

657
00:34:30,864 --> 00:34:33,282
- Uh, and--
- That sounded dirty.

658
00:34:33,365 --> 00:34:35,492
[laughs] Well, if you're doing it right.

659
00:34:35,577 --> 00:34:38,872
- Holy crokinole, that sounded dirty.
- Holy crokinole, that fluff is good.

660
00:34:38,954 --> 00:34:41,082
Fluff is powerful, fluff is bad.

661
00:34:41,166 --> 00:34:42,876
I need fluff.

662
00:34:44,294 --> 00:34:46,503
Okay, but let's be clear.
Nobody's talking fluff.

663
00:34:46,588 --> 00:34:48,798
Now, I'm--
That was not an accusatory fluff.

664
00:34:48,882 --> 00:34:50,884
- Yeah. [laughs]
- Uh, this is to say--

665
00:34:50,967 --> 00:34:54,971
This is to say what differentiates news
from entertainment is

666
00:34:55,055 --> 00:34:57,766
that sometimes we have to tell you
what you don't want to hear. Right?

667
00:34:57,849 --> 00:35:00,352
We are supposed to be
the vegetables, right?

668
00:35:00,435 --> 00:35:04,731
We are supposed to be the nutrient-giving
portion of the plate, not dessert.

669
00:35:04,814 --> 00:35:08,276
What cable news has tried to do
and what local news sometimes does

670
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,363
is get the green beans in the shortbread.

671
00:35:11,446 --> 00:35:15,367
And you've got now--
You've turned the news into entertainment,

672
00:35:15,450 --> 00:35:16,993
and you're treating entertainment
like news.

673
00:35:17,077 --> 00:35:18,453
Both of those are bad things.

674
00:35:18,536 --> 00:35:21,456
News should be news.
Entertainment should be entertainment.

675
00:35:21,539 --> 00:35:23,500
- [audience cheering, applauding]
- Boom!

676
00:35:26,086 --> 00:35:27,546
Soledad, the last word.

677
00:35:27,629 --> 00:35:30,048
Number one, don't put liars on television.

678
00:35:30,131 --> 00:35:33,260
- It's such a basic rule--
- [laughs]

679
00:35:33,343 --> 00:35:35,303
- [O'Brien] I mean…
- [audience applauding]

680
00:35:37,138 --> 00:35:42,310
It's so weird to me that literally
liars are platformed all the time,

681
00:35:42,394 --> 00:35:44,187
every single day on cable

682
00:35:44,271 --> 00:35:47,315
and then on some of the big
Sunday morning shows on networks as well.

683
00:35:47,399 --> 00:35:51,194
It's just a mistake because it's--
That's a cannibalization, right?

684
00:35:51,278 --> 00:35:53,488
It eats away at your-- your credibility.

685
00:35:53,572 --> 00:35:57,284
And also, I think, if you feel like, okay,
but I do have to put this person on

686
00:35:57,367 --> 00:36:00,328
because they are
in the middle of an important story,

687
00:36:00,412 --> 00:36:03,498
there's no little rule that says
everybody gets handed a hot mic

688
00:36:03,582 --> 00:36:06,042
and they get to be on live television.

689
00:36:06,126 --> 00:36:08,920
You can interview people
to really understand their story

690
00:36:09,004 --> 00:36:10,505
or even use pieces of it.

691
00:36:10,589 --> 00:36:13,633
But you don't have to air somebody's
entire story where they're lying.

692
00:36:13,717 --> 00:36:15,093
Just tape them first.

693
00:36:15,176 --> 00:36:19,890
But I don't know that there's a will
to make a big change when, frankly,

694
00:36:19,973 --> 00:36:23,101
the other way pays pretty well

695
00:36:23,184 --> 00:36:26,688
and, you know, gets you
in The New York Times

696
00:36:26,771 --> 00:36:29,399
and makes you famous.

697
00:36:29,482 --> 00:36:30,650
I don't know.

698
00:36:30,734 --> 00:36:34,487
Soledad, square this for me
with the high-minded rhetoric,

699
00:36:34,571 --> 00:36:37,616
'cause I know exactly what the blowback
of this episode is gonna be.

700
00:36:38,158 --> 00:36:40,327
"Fuck Jon"-- "Holy crokinole Jon Stewart."

701
00:36:40,410 --> 00:36:41,578
[all laughing]

702
00:36:43,330 --> 00:36:45,999
"You don't understand.
You're lumping us in.

703
00:36:46,082 --> 00:36:47,375
We do amazing work.

704
00:36:47,459 --> 00:36:49,669
Democracy dies in darkness."

705
00:36:49,753 --> 00:36:55,717
That doesn't square in any way to
how this thing is actually put together.

706
00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:01,681
Because one speaks of integrity
and courage and editorial authority.

707
00:37:01,765 --> 00:37:07,270
And the other is
a crass manifestation of selling beer.

708
00:37:07,354 --> 00:37:09,648
- So square that circle for me.
- [O'Brien] One--

709
00:37:09,731 --> 00:37:11,441
[audience applauding]

710
00:37:11,524 --> 00:37:14,861
One is the PR department saying,

711
00:37:14,945 --> 00:37:16,988
"What should our strategy look like

712
00:37:17,072 --> 00:37:20,867
in order to try to build
or, in some cases, rebuild trust

713
00:37:20,951 --> 00:37:23,453
with a viewing public
that's lost trust in media?"

714
00:37:23,536 --> 00:37:26,331
And the other is,
"Listen, we gotta go for these ratings."

715
00:37:27,207 --> 00:37:29,167
Well, I can't tell you
how much I appreciate

716
00:37:29,251 --> 00:37:30,835
the conversation from all of you.

717
00:37:30,919 --> 00:37:32,837
I feel not much better at all.

718
00:37:32,921 --> 00:37:34,673
[all laughing]

719
00:37:36,633 --> 00:37:40,470
I want to thank everybody for joining us,

720
00:37:40,554 --> 00:37:44,099
Chris Stirewalt, Sean McLaughlin
and, of course, Soledad O'Brien.

721
00:37:44,182 --> 00:37:47,102
Uh, we'll take a little break
and be right back.

722
00:37:47,185 --> 00:37:49,813
- [audience cheering, applauding]
- [no audible dialogue]

723
00:37:55,402 --> 00:37:59,072
We're not gonna have an interview
with somebody who runs a news division

724
00:37:59,155 --> 00:38:01,199
or used to run a news division.

725
00:38:01,283 --> 00:38:03,451
So far, it's been a resounding no.

726
00:38:03,535 --> 00:38:08,456
You're an industry that relies on
transparency and access.

727
00:38:09,124 --> 00:38:12,377
And-And democracy dies in darkness.

728
00:38:12,460 --> 00:38:15,672
And you're saying that
locked in a fucking closet.

729
00:38:15,755 --> 00:38:17,632
- Right.
- With the lights out.

730
00:38:18,133 --> 00:38:19,676
And you won't say it on camera.

731
00:38:19,759 --> 00:38:23,388
These are people that stand
outside of people's homes

732
00:38:23,471 --> 00:38:25,932
after their child has been murdered

733
00:38:26,016 --> 00:38:29,144
and say, "Talk to me.
Come out and tell us"…

734
00:38:29,227 --> 00:38:30,687
- You owe us!
- …"how you feel."

735
00:38:30,770 --> 00:38:32,188
And they act like they owe them.

736
00:38:32,272 --> 00:38:35,567
And then you ask them to just come on
and defend their fucking business model.

737
00:38:35,650 --> 00:38:39,738
Have you tried going outside their house
and being like, "Fucking talk to us"?

738
00:38:39,821 --> 00:38:41,531
[all laughing]

739
00:38:44,993 --> 00:38:47,787
[Stewart]
Let me explain to you why we're here.

740
00:38:47,871 --> 00:38:50,457
Uh, first of all,
no one else would talk to us.

741
00:38:50,540 --> 00:38:51,791
- So, thank you.
- [chuckles]

742
00:38:51,875 --> 00:38:54,878
So we spoke with
a lot of heads of news divisions.

743
00:38:54,961 --> 00:39:00,675
And, uh, they are reluctant
to speak on the record.

744
00:39:00,759 --> 00:39:06,765
Do you have an idea of why they might be
so reluctant to speak publicly?

745
00:39:06,848 --> 00:39:10,727
Well, I think that,
um, news organizations,

746
00:39:10,810 --> 00:39:16,066
there's a sense that they are
being scrutinized and being criticized

747
00:39:16,149 --> 00:39:19,027
in a way that they've
never experienced before.

748
00:39:19,110 --> 00:39:22,489
And I think there's a bit of
a bunker mentality that has set in.

749
00:39:22,572 --> 00:39:24,950
- Mm-hmm.
- Um, I think it's very, very hard

750
00:39:25,033 --> 00:39:29,913
when you're constantly,
constantly being criticized by--

751
00:39:29,996 --> 00:39:32,540
Who would criticize the news?

752
00:39:32,624 --> 00:39:36,586
Who would do such a-- such a thing?

753
00:39:36,670 --> 00:39:37,796
[stammers] That's terrible.

754
00:39:37,879 --> 00:39:40,590
[clears throat] All right. It's my fault.

755
00:39:41,091 --> 00:39:42,259
But you know what's interesting?

756
00:39:42,342 --> 00:39:45,929
The people that we talked to
would all say,

757
00:39:46,721 --> 00:39:49,933
"Well, you know, you've got to--
you've got to deliver the ratings."

758
00:39:50,016 --> 00:39:53,061
They call them
the minute-to-minutes, right?

759
00:39:53,144 --> 00:39:56,856
How much of it is the ratings pressure?

760
00:39:56,940 --> 00:39:59,609
And how much of it is a self-consciousness

761
00:39:59,693 --> 00:40:02,988
over accusations of liberal bias

762
00:40:03,071 --> 00:40:06,908
or accusations of a political agenda?

763
00:40:06,992 --> 00:40:09,452
What concerns would they express
to you in that situation?

764
00:40:09,536 --> 00:40:12,414
ABC News reported to me
in one form or another

765
00:40:12,497 --> 00:40:16,001
for probably 35 years, 30-some-odd years.

766
00:40:16,084 --> 00:40:20,213
And my advice to them was
to not hear the noise as much,

767
00:40:20,297 --> 00:40:26,052
to continue doing the job that, uh--
that we've entrusted them to do.

768
00:40:26,136 --> 00:40:27,137
[Stewart] Right.

769
00:40:27,220 --> 00:40:31,683
Which is to tell the truth,
to state the facts.

770
00:40:31,766 --> 00:40:36,980
To present the news in an accurate
and a fair and in a timely basis.

771
00:40:37,063 --> 00:40:43,570
But we never sought to drive ratings
or even bottom-line success

772
00:40:43,653 --> 00:40:46,907
at the sacrifice
of what we consider to be quality.

773
00:40:46,990 --> 00:40:49,242
It just wasn't--
It wasn't part of our discussion.

774
00:40:49,326 --> 00:40:50,827
What they will tell you,

775
00:40:50,911 --> 00:40:54,581
and maybe they didn't say it,
you know, in those meetings,

776
00:40:54,664 --> 00:41:00,003
is the producer of the piece will be
cognizant of the minute-to-minute ratings.

777
00:41:00,086 --> 00:41:04,341
The executive producer of the show
will be cognizant of those.

778
00:41:05,008 --> 00:41:08,178
And the decisions that they make

779
00:41:08,970 --> 00:41:15,268
were almost entirely built on
what they thought might have rated.

780
00:41:15,352 --> 00:41:17,729
- It's been a little daunting.
- If you're asking whether

781
00:41:17,812 --> 00:41:21,691
there have been incidents when
news organizations failed to carry things

782
00:41:21,775 --> 00:41:24,653
because they don't think
they'll be of interest to their audience,

783
00:41:24,736 --> 00:41:25,779
I'm sure that's the case.

784
00:41:25,862 --> 00:41:27,322
- I'm not saying instances.
- But here's--

785
00:41:27,405 --> 00:41:29,574
- That's been shaping--
- You think it's a regular thing.

786
00:41:29,658 --> 00:41:31,409
And not told in the right way.

787
00:41:31,493 --> 00:41:36,498
See, that-- that's-- I would argue
that there are stories that are not told

788
00:41:36,581 --> 00:41:39,209
because there's a belief
that people aren't interested in them.

789
00:41:39,292 --> 00:41:41,253
I don't think
there are stories that are told

790
00:41:41,336 --> 00:41:42,963
that are told inaccurately

791
00:41:43,046 --> 00:41:44,923
just to make them
more interesting to people.

792
00:41:45,006 --> 00:41:47,050
- It's not inacc--
- I'm defending an organization

793
00:41:47,133 --> 00:41:48,885
- as opposed to news in general.
- [Stewart] Right.

794
00:41:48,969 --> 00:41:51,596
- I just don't have enough--
- But trust in news

795
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:56,601
during the Cronkite era was-- It was
one of the most valued institutions.

796
00:41:56,685 --> 00:42:02,148
Today, it's somewhere
between Congress and herpes.

797
00:42:02,232 --> 00:42:05,819
You know, in terms of its Q rating.
What happened?

798
00:42:05,902 --> 00:42:10,490
It starts with technology
enabling an explosion of programming…

799
00:42:10,574 --> 00:42:13,577
[stammers]
…which includes news and information.

800
00:42:13,660 --> 00:42:17,706
And with that, I believe,
has come a dilution in quality.

801
00:42:17,789 --> 00:42:22,836
The more volume, typically, as it grows
and grows and grows and explodes,

802
00:42:22,919 --> 00:42:25,505
results in, in my opinion,
a loss of quality.

803
00:42:25,589 --> 00:42:29,217
And then you look at
what is presented as news on social media,

804
00:42:29,301 --> 00:42:30,844
and you can immediately conclude

805
00:42:30,927 --> 00:42:35,473
that a lot of what is presented
that people think is news is not news

806
00:42:35,557 --> 00:42:37,934
as certainly we knew it
when we were growing up

807
00:42:38,018 --> 00:42:40,353
and what we were taught news should be.

808
00:42:40,437 --> 00:42:41,271
- Um--
- Right.

809
00:42:41,354 --> 00:42:44,816
So I think what people believe is news
is really opinion,

810
00:42:44,900 --> 00:42:46,818
and opinion is very different than that.

811
00:42:46,902 --> 00:42:48,945
Opinion is a-- is a bias.

812
00:42:49,029 --> 00:42:50,530
But you're in a business

813
00:42:50,614 --> 00:42:53,909
where the first word you say,
the first thing you say

814
00:42:53,992 --> 00:42:57,996
at the top of every broadcast is,
"Our top story tonight."

815
00:42:58,997 --> 00:43:01,166
That's opinion.

816
00:43:01,958 --> 00:43:03,168
It's subjective.

817
00:43:03,251 --> 00:43:05,837
There's this strange disconnect

818
00:43:05,921 --> 00:43:11,051
between the high-mindedness
of what they say they do--

819
00:43:11,134 --> 00:43:13,803
"democracy dies in darkness"--

820
00:43:14,596 --> 00:43:17,974
versus the reality of how they produce it.

821
00:43:18,058 --> 00:43:23,730
"Breaking news tonight.
Everyone will die. Watch us."

822
00:43:23,813 --> 00:43:27,943
Because their business model
is based on engagement.

823
00:43:28,026 --> 00:43:32,072
It is an editorial decision
to decide what story to tell first.

824
00:43:32,155 --> 00:43:36,409
But you're suggesting
that that in itself is, uh,

825
00:43:36,493 --> 00:43:38,745
an example of a lessening of quality
or a bias--

826
00:43:38,828 --> 00:43:44,376
It's-- It's bias. If you don't admit--
I'll give you an example.

827
00:43:44,459 --> 00:43:47,671
If you lead every night
with the Mueller report,

828
00:43:47,754 --> 00:43:49,422
Mueller, the Mueller investigation…

829
00:43:50,382 --> 00:43:54,469
They created a television show,
they created the O.J. trial,

830
00:43:55,345 --> 00:43:56,638
out of the Mueller report.

831
00:43:57,347 --> 00:43:59,766
That business model, it feels like,

832
00:43:59,849 --> 00:44:04,187
overwhelms whatever
journalistic credibility exists.

833
00:44:04,980 --> 00:44:07,816
And isn't that what needs to be fixed?

834
00:44:07,899 --> 00:44:12,696
I do believe that many news organizations,

835
00:44:12,779 --> 00:44:18,243
feeling embattled by the--
Trump and the Trump, uh, era…

836
00:44:18,326 --> 00:44:20,912
- Mm-hmm.
- …um, reacted to it,

837
00:44:21,621 --> 00:44:27,919
um, perhaps, by building up
his potential demise.

838
00:44:28,003 --> 00:44:33,925
In other words, I think-- I think
there was, uh, almost a glee felt.

839
00:44:34,009 --> 00:44:37,888
If that were a singular example, right?

840
00:44:38,471 --> 00:44:41,308
When we withdrew forces from Afghanistan,

841
00:44:41,391 --> 00:44:46,354
there was, appropriately enough,
a pretty big focus on it.

842
00:44:46,438 --> 00:44:48,106
- Big story.
- Very big story.

843
00:44:48,189 --> 00:44:51,902
- Should have been a lot of focus on it.
- I think you're absolutely right.

844
00:44:51,985 --> 00:44:55,071
But the focus on it was
one of high dudgeon

845
00:44:55,155 --> 00:45:00,160
over how could this happen,
and why did it happen and what's going on.

846
00:45:00,243 --> 00:45:04,164
But we'd been there
since two thousand and--

847
00:45:04,247 --> 00:45:07,459
Twenty-some-odd, twenty--
twenty-year war, right?

848
00:45:07,542 --> 00:45:13,715
Isn't some of the context of what happened
based on no one covering it

849
00:45:13,798 --> 00:45:17,260
in a significant way
over the past ten years?

850
00:45:17,344 --> 00:45:19,930
Well, you're suggesting
if it had been covered on a regular basis,

851
00:45:20,013 --> 00:45:21,598
then we wouldn't have been surprised

852
00:45:21,681 --> 00:45:24,893
by the speed at which the Taliban
took over the country

853
00:45:24,976 --> 00:45:26,561
as we drew down our forces?

854
00:45:26,645 --> 00:45:29,314
- I'm saying if it had been covered more…
- Right.

855
00:45:29,397 --> 00:45:31,524
…maybe we wouldn't even
have been there that long.

856
00:45:31,608 --> 00:45:36,905
What I'm saying is
that we are not well informed,

857
00:45:36,988 --> 00:45:42,202
that the news media goes
all-or-nothing on everything,

858
00:45:42,285 --> 00:45:44,704
that they're like
eight-year-olds playing soccer.

859
00:45:44,788 --> 00:45:46,039
And if you've ever seen them--

860
00:45:46,122 --> 00:45:48,291
Everybody grab--
Everybody running to the ball.

861
00:45:48,375 --> 00:45:49,668
Everybody run to the ball.

862
00:45:49,751 --> 00:45:52,254
And that there's no perspective because--

863
00:45:52,337 --> 00:45:53,588
So, I could argue

864
00:45:53,672 --> 00:45:56,466
there are some stories
that have not been covered enough

865
00:45:57,384 --> 00:46:00,428
maybe because there's a belief that
the audience isn't interested in them.

866
00:46:00,512 --> 00:46:03,765
Maybe because
even news organizations get tired

867
00:46:03,848 --> 00:46:05,350
of presenting them on a regular basis.

868
00:46:05,433 --> 00:46:07,352
Although, I don't know incidents of that.

869
00:46:07,435 --> 00:46:11,523
You don't think that
the outrage nature of the coverage

870
00:46:11,606 --> 00:46:15,694
- was a bit overhyped in that--
- I mean, the only thing I could argue

871
00:46:15,777 --> 00:46:18,113
is maybe if it had been covered more,

872
00:46:18,196 --> 00:46:22,450
America would have been more outraged
earlier about the fact that we were there.

873
00:46:22,534 --> 00:46:23,535
That's my point.

874
00:46:23,618 --> 00:46:25,495
Then maybe the pullout
would have happened earlier.

875
00:46:25,579 --> 00:46:27,706
- Or more responsibly.
- I dunno. I lived through the Vietnam era.

876
00:46:27,789 --> 00:46:30,792
Let's just say
we'll conclude war is hell, right?

877
00:46:30,875 --> 00:46:31,835
- Therefore…
- Yes.

878
00:46:31,918 --> 00:46:37,465
…if news organizations cover the hell,
maybe we won't have wars.

879
00:46:37,549 --> 00:46:40,927
When news narrows their focus of coverage,

880
00:46:41,511 --> 00:46:45,140
people get a skewed picture
of what our reality is.

881
00:46:45,223 --> 00:46:51,813
I think you're being a little too
critical, in my opinion, of news overall.

882
00:46:52,606 --> 00:46:56,860
That's not to say that
news organizations don't hype big stories,

883
00:46:56,943 --> 00:46:58,612
because many of them do,

884
00:46:58,695 --> 00:47:01,281
and sometimes overhype,
sometimes to a fault.

885
00:47:01,364 --> 00:47:03,450
- Um, but--
- When do they not--

886
00:47:03,533 --> 00:47:05,702
I'd be more curious
as to when you thought they didn't.

887
00:47:05,785 --> 00:47:09,205
[stammers] We'd have to go back
to the biggest story of our time.

888
00:47:09,289 --> 00:47:12,500
COVID cri-- COVID. Was that overhyped?

889
00:47:12,584 --> 00:47:14,502
- 900,000 people in the United States…
- I think that--

890
00:47:14,586 --> 00:47:16,671
…have died from it.
Doesn't feel overhyped to me.

891
00:47:16,755 --> 00:47:20,842
No. I'll give you an example with COVID
that I think is apropos.

892
00:47:20,926 --> 00:47:21,927
Mask wearing.

893
00:47:22,010 --> 00:47:26,848
The political conflict
over whether or not to wear masks,

894
00:47:26,932 --> 00:47:31,519
and the overwhelming majority
of conversation is speculation

895
00:47:31,603 --> 00:47:36,608
about what that means to freedom
and this person's anger about it.

896
00:47:36,691 --> 00:47:39,736
And so little of it is, what does it do?

897
00:47:39,819 --> 00:47:41,196
Why do surgeons wear them?

898
00:47:41,780 --> 00:47:43,823
- I think that part of the story was told.
- The overwhelming--

899
00:47:43,907 --> 00:47:47,327
The part of the story that was told
already is that people should wear masks

900
00:47:47,410 --> 00:47:50,163
because, from a scientific perspective,

901
00:47:50,247 --> 00:47:52,791
- there's a real reason to do so.
- Right.

902
00:47:52,874 --> 00:47:56,795
And, I don't know, does the audience
need to be reminded again

903
00:47:56,878 --> 00:47:59,047
and again and again of that?

904
00:47:59,130 --> 00:48:02,384
Why are they reminded again and again
that it's causing a fight?

905
00:48:02,467 --> 00:48:07,639
By hyping conflict,
aren't they also escalating that conflict?

906
00:48:07,722 --> 00:48:10,267
Were they hyping conflict,
or were they covering conflict?

907
00:48:10,350 --> 00:48:12,811
- I think--
- Covering it too much is hyping it?

908
00:48:12,894 --> 00:48:16,648
I think their coverage
of conflict hypes it,

909
00:48:16,731 --> 00:48:19,526
and I actually think
they drive a lot of it.

910
00:48:19,609 --> 00:48:24,030
So I guess if there's more and more
incidents of people going crazy

911
00:48:24,114 --> 00:48:25,907
about mask wearing,

912
00:48:25,991 --> 00:48:28,076
I guess I could argue
it should be covered.

913
00:48:28,159 --> 00:48:29,578
Now, if you're asking me whether I think

914
00:48:29,661 --> 00:48:33,248
there's probably been
too much made of that… probably.

915
00:48:33,331 --> 00:48:34,457
I would-- [chuckles]

916
00:48:34,541 --> 00:48:38,753
Don't you think
coverage can influence behavior?

917
00:48:39,462 --> 00:48:41,339
Can news influence behavior?

918
00:48:41,423 --> 00:48:43,884
Sure, it can. Absolutely.

919
00:48:43,967 --> 00:48:49,014
Which is why I think it's so important
for news to act responsibly.

920
00:48:49,681 --> 00:48:51,933
- Um, look. It has just as much a power--
- Boom.

921
00:48:52,017 --> 00:48:55,270
Just as it has a power to do good,
it has a power to do bad.

922
00:48:55,353 --> 00:48:58,523
What can be done
to manage it more responsibly?

923
00:48:59,357 --> 00:49:03,028
It's managed responsibly by some
organizations, and by others it's not.

924
00:49:03,111 --> 00:49:06,114
Look, people are not as held accountable
for inaccuracies.

925
00:49:06,197 --> 00:49:07,365
So there's that issue.

926
00:49:07,449 --> 00:49:12,078
And then there's the whole issue of
profiting from-- I'll call it inaccuracy.

927
00:49:12,162 --> 00:49:13,246
- In other words…
- [Stewart] Right.

928
00:49:13,330 --> 00:49:18,126
…from opinion and from, well, presenting
things in an inaccurate fashion.

929
00:49:18,209 --> 00:49:20,253
I think if you're looking at overall,

930
00:49:20,337 --> 00:49:22,964
the pot of--
that isn't considered news today,

931
00:49:23,048 --> 00:49:25,884
it's-- We're in a-- It's a problem.

932
00:49:25,967 --> 00:49:27,636
So to answer your question,

933
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,805
I don't know what the answer is
in terms of fixing it.

934
00:49:30,889 --> 00:49:33,934
Let's use Fox News as an example,
because I think it's a good example.

935
00:49:34,017 --> 00:49:36,770
Roger Ailes had an idea.
I don't know if you knew Roger at all.

936
00:49:36,853 --> 00:49:40,774
Roger came to me
and wanted to run ABC News at one point.

937
00:49:40,857 --> 00:49:44,277
Before, believe it or not,
in the early '90s.

938
00:49:45,278 --> 00:49:47,739
Boy, that would have been--
that would have been a Trojan horse.

939
00:49:47,822 --> 00:49:51,117
Yeah, we weren't looking
for someone at that point. [laughs]

940
00:49:51,201 --> 00:49:53,787
So I wasn't in need, but I met with him.

941
00:49:53,870 --> 00:50:00,752
It's really clear that he is advocating
or was advocating a political position

942
00:50:01,378 --> 00:50:05,131
and used his storytelling ability
and his narrative ability

943
00:50:05,215 --> 00:50:07,509
to create this powerhouse

944
00:50:08,051 --> 00:50:11,304
that is really the media arm
of a political movement.

945
00:50:11,388 --> 00:50:15,183
Look, if-- if Roger Ailes had concluded--
well, which he did,

946
00:50:15,267 --> 00:50:19,229
that there-- that news had a bias--
that the then-existing news organizations,

947
00:50:19,312 --> 00:50:24,067
specifically cable news,
had a bias and was ignoring the right

948
00:50:24,150 --> 00:50:26,236
and that he was gonna go out
and create an organization

949
00:50:26,319 --> 00:50:28,196
that was not going to be biased…

950
00:50:28,947 --> 00:50:30,490
- But that's the--
- But he didn't do that.

951
00:50:30,574 --> 00:50:32,784
- He was cynical. I don't think he was--
- He didn't do that.

952
00:50:32,867 --> 00:50:35,245
He thought there was a business
in being biased.

953
00:50:35,328 --> 00:50:37,330
- Correct.
- But then what we've also seen is

954
00:50:37,414 --> 00:50:41,918
that other news organizations then pivoted
in another direction

955
00:50:42,002 --> 00:50:44,170
as a countermeasure to what he was doing.

956
00:50:44,254 --> 00:50:45,297
- So…
- Correct.

957
00:50:45,380 --> 00:50:48,008
That, to me, was a huge mistake,

958
00:50:48,091 --> 00:50:51,720
'cause I think that was
at the expense of credibility,

959
00:50:51,803 --> 00:50:53,722
at the expense of being accurate,

960
00:50:53,805 --> 00:50:57,309
at the-- I would argue even
at the expense of being responsible.

961
00:50:57,392 --> 00:51:00,979
Can you do a profitable news organization

962
00:51:02,188 --> 00:51:04,649
that also is--

963
00:51:04,733 --> 00:51:10,363
has the strength to cut through the noise

964
00:51:10,447 --> 00:51:12,240
in this media environment?

965
00:51:12,324 --> 00:51:15,869
It's almost impossible, really, today.
I don't know how you would do it.

966
00:51:15,952 --> 00:51:17,454
You'd have to--

967
00:51:17,537 --> 00:51:20,624
I don't think you can create
a subscription news service

968
00:51:21,833 --> 00:51:27,422
that would generate the kind of revenue
you'd need to cover news right.

969
00:51:27,505 --> 00:51:31,009
And advertising is typically
reliant on consumption,

970
00:51:31,092 --> 00:51:32,761
so you'd have to really be betting

971
00:51:32,844 --> 00:51:35,513
that you could drive
huge amounts of consumption.

972
00:51:35,597 --> 00:51:37,933
What would you do?
How would you fix it? Or what--

973
00:51:38,016 --> 00:51:39,309
[Iger] I've thought about it a lot.

974
00:51:39,392 --> 00:51:41,853
If you were gonna create it,
how would you do it?

975
00:51:41,937 --> 00:51:44,606
You have to start completely from scratch.

976
00:51:44,689 --> 00:51:48,276
But not because you're trying to erase
mistakes of the past,

977
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:53,365
but you're trying to erase perceptions
that have been created over time.

978
00:51:53,448 --> 00:51:54,991
And you'd have to populate it

979
00:51:55,075 --> 00:51:59,621
with people with incredible credibility
and responsibility and accountability.

980
00:52:00,372 --> 00:52:02,457
It sounds very idealistic, doesn't it?

981
00:52:02,540 --> 00:52:04,000
It sounds incredibly idealistic.

982
00:52:04,084 --> 00:52:07,003
- But maybe we need it. I don't know.
- But shouldn't it?

983
00:52:07,087 --> 00:52:11,341
I still think of that idea
of a news organization

984
00:52:11,424 --> 00:52:16,179
that is more cognizant
of what that business model is.

985
00:52:16,263 --> 00:52:19,057
And that maybe there's money to be made

986
00:52:19,140 --> 00:52:23,144
that's not as relentlessly,
uh, hyperbolic.

987
00:52:23,228 --> 00:52:26,648
But I don't know--
I just don't know how practical that is.

988
00:52:26,731 --> 00:52:29,693
In terms of you don't know that
that's a winner as far as, like…

989
00:52:30,944 --> 00:52:32,862
that it could be financially viable.

990
00:52:32,946 --> 00:52:36,157
Well, financially viable is--
Well, even-- Yes.

991
00:52:36,241 --> 00:52:37,867
But I'm much more interested in

992
00:52:37,951 --> 00:52:40,453
whether it would truly
make a difference in the world.

993
00:52:41,037 --> 00:52:43,623
I feel like it has to

994
00:52:43,707 --> 00:52:47,711
because I've seen the impact
that one news organization has had

995
00:52:47,794 --> 00:52:50,005
on the deterioration of it.

996
00:52:50,589 --> 00:52:55,385
Somebody's got to generate fodder
that's better quality.

997
00:52:55,468 --> 00:52:56,887
And it feels like--

998
00:52:56,970 --> 00:53:01,057
So I guess what I'm asking you is,
will you run that?

999
00:53:01,141 --> 00:53:02,976
[laughing]

1000
00:53:03,059 --> 00:53:05,395
You're not the first person
who's asked me to consider--

1001
00:53:05,478 --> 00:53:06,521
Well, here we are then.

1002
00:53:06,605 --> 00:53:07,898
So-- So--

1003
00:53:07,981 --> 00:53:09,357
So that's what this is about.

1004
00:53:09,441 --> 00:53:11,651
You seem to have an idea for it.
You have an affinity for it.

1005
00:53:11,735 --> 00:53:13,737
You've run
these larger organizations before.

1006
00:53:13,820 --> 00:53:16,698
People have presented me
with that concept.

1007
00:53:16,781 --> 00:53:17,908
- They have.
- And?

1008
00:53:17,991 --> 00:53:22,412
Well, I haven't said yes to it
because I'm not sure how practical it is

1009
00:53:22,495 --> 00:53:24,915
or how effective it would be.
I don't know.

1010
00:53:24,998 --> 00:53:26,875
Thank you very much
for sitting down with us.

1011
00:53:26,958 --> 00:53:28,710
- We very much appreciate it.
- My pleasure.

1012
00:54:20,011 --> 00:54:22,264
[audience cheering, applauding]

1013
00:54:22,347 --> 00:54:24,266
Oh, thank you, everybody.

1014
00:54:24,349 --> 00:54:27,269
Thank you very much
for watching tonight's show.

1015
00:54:29,771 --> 00:54:32,983
Uh, please send all of your hate mail
directly to Apple.

1016
00:54:33,066 --> 00:54:35,360
For more on tonight's topic,

1017
00:54:35,443 --> 00:54:39,072
please check out these resources
to continue the conversation.

1018
00:54:39,155 --> 00:54:41,616
Also, as you may know, we have a podcast.

1019
00:54:41,700 --> 00:54:45,620
It's like, uh, the Jackass movies,
but we hurt ourselves with words.

1020
00:54:45,704 --> 00:54:46,913
[Stewart, audience laugh]

1021
00:54:50,166 --> 00:54:53,336
And if that wasn't enough,
we got ourselves a little newsletter there

1022
00:54:53,420 --> 00:54:55,380
that is gonna look very nice
in your spam box.

1023
00:54:55,463 --> 00:54:58,133
So, thank you and good night to all.

1024
00:54:58,216 --> 00:55:00,886
[audience cheering, applauding]

1025
00:55:06,808 --> 00:55:09,185
So, one thing you learn in TV news

1026
00:55:09,269 --> 00:55:11,813
when you're writing headlines
and copy and things like that are

1027
00:55:11,897 --> 00:55:16,902
you want to use, um, phrases
as opposed to, like, sentences.

1028
00:55:17,652 --> 00:55:20,947
"A tree crashed"
is not an interesting sentence.

1029
00:55:21,031 --> 00:55:23,533
You want to say, "Trees crashing."

1030
00:55:23,617 --> 00:55:25,327
- As though it's happening right now.
- Correct.

1031
00:55:25,410 --> 00:55:27,662
And you also want to start every sentence
with "tonight."

1032
00:55:27,746 --> 00:55:30,498
It'll all start with,
"Tonight, trees crashing."

1033
00:55:30,582 --> 00:55:31,666
- [Reza gasps]
- Oh.

1034
00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:33,418
How do we reflect urgency tonight?

1035
00:55:33,501 --> 00:55:38,006
Why "exclusive"? When they say,
"Tonight, exclusively, we talk to…"

1036
00:55:38,089 --> 00:55:41,218
And it's somebody you're looking at
on every network, and you think,

1037
00:55:41,301 --> 00:55:43,929
is there any--
What do they think of as exclusive?

1038
00:55:44,012 --> 00:55:48,975
Oh, yeah. They think that
if you hear how special something is,

1039
00:55:49,059 --> 00:55:50,185
you will watch it more.

1040
00:55:50,268 --> 00:55:53,730
"This is just for you, girl.
Okay, girlfriend. Shh."

1041
00:55:53,813 --> 00:55:55,523
[Jay] Oh, my God. The news is a fuckboy.

1042
00:55:55,607 --> 00:55:59,486
"I don't do this for everybody."

1043
00:55:59,569 --> 00:56:01,112
"But since you asked…"

1044
00:56:01,196 --> 00:56:03,657
[all laughing]