[audience cheering, applauding]
Boom!
Oh. Should I sit up?
Sit up tall.
Hello!
I'm gonna sit on my jacket.
Thank you.
Please! Sit, sit, sit!
Welcome back!
It is season two of The Problem.
This is the new variant of the show.
The King Charles edition. I'm wearing a blazer.
[high-pitched] Hello.
[normal] Since we've been gone,
and obviously not to suggest that correlation equals causation,
but the world has gone into a bit of a tailspin.
War on reality, war on science, war on children.
Reality no longer has meaning.
The goal here is insidious. It's about destruction.
The nuclear family is under attack.
You're destroying the culture.
[hushed voice] I'm scared.
[normal] What the fuck are they talking about?
What are-- Polio? Nuclear war?
Black mermaids?
A recent software update for Apple iPhones includes a pregnant man emoji,
as well as a number of other gender-neutral cartoons.
My God, what has Satan wrought?
Ah, yes, the gender wars.
We lost a lot of good men...
but, apparently, gained a lot of good men,
so I think it's a wash.
[audience laughs]
We are a country living under the tyranny of the new pronoun police.
You got your "she/hers,"
your "he/hims,"
your "they/thems."
Am I missing anybody?
Well, I'm Ted Cruz, and my pronoun is "kiss my ass."
Oh, so you got your "anal/inguses."
Your "he/rim."
[audience laughing]
We are in a new dawn of gender and sex complexity,
where those who don't fit into a simple binary are meant to be seen with humanity.
It wasn't always like this, people.
As recently as, let's say, the 1990s, early 2000s,
people were making shitty, reductive jokes about the subject.
[chuckles] [audience laughing]
What can I say? The joke rhymed.
Shitty and reductive jokes are kind of my brand.
But as we know from history,
any moment of progressive visibility will be met with a vicious backlash.
There are two genders.
There are two genders, and everyone knows it.
Ain't but two genders!
[audience laughing]
That last guy sounded like it's an emergency
and we're running out of genders.
[shouting] Everyone! There ain't but two genders!
I don't wanna have to start rationing genders.
The point is clear.
The human race is defined by a simple binary,
a black-and-white understanding.
There are men and there are women.
And never the twain shall meet.
Trump is an alpha male.
Well, okay. Yes.
There are obviously men who are more man than other men.
But that's an aberration.
Beta, gamma...
Okay.
There's an entire Greek alphabet, a continuum of masculinity,
but that doesn't mean--
-Cuck. -Pajama boy.
-Soy boy. -Girlie man.
[audience laughing]
I hope the children are out of the room.
Clearly, masculinity appears to be on a dimmer, not an on-off switch.
But ladies are different.
I was a big tomboy.
These purple-haired, angry freaks.
-Rabid feminist. -Cat lady.
-High-rolling bimbos. -Pretty girlie girl.
My God.
What a cruise line buffet of the gradients in American gender expression.
Turns out there's a lot of nonbinary shit happening between the binaries.
But that hasn't stopped the traditionalists
from deploying their newest weapon in the culture war arsenal,
the obvious gotcha question.
Real basic question. What is a woman?
Can you provide a definition for the word "woman"?
For all of recorded history, people have known what a woman is.
Yes! All of recorded history!
It was simple!
Until like a year ago,
the answer to "what is a woman" has always been the same.
It's, uh,
"A woman is a deformity
that occurred in the ordinary course of nature."
[audience laughing]
I'm sorry. That's-- That's Aristotle. I apologize. That's--
I'm sorry. That's not what I meant.
I meant, "A woman is a person who has no legal existence once married."
That's-- I'm sorry. That's-- That's early American coverture law.
That's-- That's not right. No. The-- [stammers]
Throughout history. It's not a gotcha question.
"A woman is 30 shekels."
That's-- I'm sorry.
[audience laughing]
I'm sorry, that's Leviticus.
Uh, unless she's whorish, then a woman is a loaf of bread.
That's Proverbs. Yes.
It turns out, for most of recorded history,
women were just defined by whatever men had in their wallet that day.
Perhaps it takes a woman to answer this obvious question
that progressives continue to dance around.
I'm gonna tell you right now what is a woman.
This is an easy answer.
We are a creation of God. We came from Adam's rib.
All right. Well, I-- I think I still have some questions.
Uh, perhaps we're getting caught in a bit of a trap,
in the confusion of gender identity and sex,
when it comes to defining women.
Perhaps if we focus on the science,
the black-and-white nature becomes clearer.
That's simple.
A woman is a human being with two X chromosomes.
Ask any geneticist.
Damn it, he got me again!
[laughing] I don't know any geneticists.
Where am I gonna find a geneticist?
I can't find it. It's--
There's no such thing. It's-- Geneticist here.
Are you a geneticist?
-I am. -And you're prelit?
[audience laughs]
What-- What are the chances?
So, most women have two X chromosomes. Most men have an X and a Y.
But you can have one X, three Xs, XXY, XYY and other combinations too.
And all of what we're talking about... Yeah.
...is related to but distinct from the idea of gender,
which reflects, you know, one's lived experiences,
their identity, even sociocultural factors.
I don't wanna interrupt you,
but I am so close to taking your lunch money right now.
[audience laughing]
[Bigdeli] I have a fun fact for you, Jon.
Uh, among men of a certain age, about a third of them,
uh, we can actually detect that some of their cells,
some circulating white blood cells have actually lost their Y chromosome.
You're directing that at me, aren't you?
You're directing that--
All right, so, fine,
the geneticist thinks that sex is not a straight binary.
But is there anybody else really qualified to speak on this?
My wife's a doctor. My wife is a doctor.
My wife, who is a doctor--
Fortunately, I know a doctor, who is my wife.
Yes, you there.
Boy in the high chair.
Okay, this is undisputed. There are two sexes.
There are not nine. There are not 11.
And hopefully the next thing he says
doesn't completely undercut his entire point.
If you have a Y chromosome, then you are typically male.
People without a Y chromosome are typically female.
Right! Typically!
That's the whole fucking point!
When things are undisputed and binary,
there are no "typicallies."
One plus one equals two, typically.
The Earth revolves around the sun in most cases.
There exists an area in sex and gender
that, by your own admission, isn't binary.
Even you, Dr. Quinn, Medicine Husband,
have trouble explaining it.
In nearly all cases,
I can tell the difference between a male and a female...
99.8%, 99.9% of cases, you absolutely can gender somebody based on...
By the way, in most cases of intersex,
those people still manifest as either a male or a female...
Here's the deal. For all of human history,
there was an objective standard between male and female...
For nearly all of human history, out of partial ignorance,
and partially because this is usually true,
it was out of genetic-- it was out of simply looking at people's genitals.
Yes, so simple.
Nearly all, in most cases, usually,
I before E except after C,
show me your dick so I know where you pee.
[audience laughing, applauding]
And thus...
"The Problem with Gender and Sex."
Or both.
It turns out none of this shit is simple.
We didn't just ask a geneticist.
We asked endocrinologists and a few psychiatrists and gynecologists.
And they all said the same thing.
Intersex, trans, nonbinary and all the other gradations
on the gender-future-sex- love-sounds continuum
are normal human variation.
And whatever discomfort we may feel
in the changing norms of reality,
myself included,
it is no match for the discomfort and fear felt by those seeking acceptance.
Yet, for some reason,
anti-trans legislation increased over 800% since 2018.
800%.
What could justify this unprecedented urgency?
Did trans people storm the Capitol?
Did they steal classified nuclear intel from the White House
and keep it in a humidor in Florida?
What is the threat?
We need to end the assault on women's sports
by the radical gender-left.
Come on.
Not every one of those words could be equally important.
[audience laughs]
And the same note.
It's the end of women's sports. It's just the end.
Women's sports as we know it will die.
[audience laughs]
And I assume that when they die, for tax reasons,
you will bury them on your golf course.
[audience laughing, applauding]
Now, there have been 77 anti-trans sports bills
introduced this year alone.
There have been more anti-trans sports bills introduced this year
than trans people dominating sports
in the history of women's sports.
And by the by, I don't know if you're familiar with the Olympics,
but they've been trying to answer this incredibly simple question
of "what is a woman" for 80 years.
And here's how some of that went.
In 1966, a Polish sprinter was deemed a woman
via a controversial anatomy test.
I think you know what that means.
In 1967, a chromosome test done on this athlete deemed her not to be a woman.
And, of course, in 1968, she had a baby.
A baby!
And then obviously in 1969, she had the summer of her life.
[audience laughs]
[lip-synching "Summer of '69"]
It all boils down to this.
Clearly, just because you strongly believe
that something is simple and undeniable
doesn't mean that that belief will be backed up
by the correlating and corresponding data.
God, that's not pithy enough--
What-- If only there was a way to monetize that thought
in the most cynical way possible.
Facts don't care about your feelings.
Nailed it!
Take a look at this.
[audience applauding, cheering]
Let's all pray.
Dear God...
-...I know you... -...make no mistakes...
-...but these... -...transgender people--
What is that about? Sincere question.
And no disrespect to anybody...
...but I've got a message for you that I must preach.
This country was founded on the idea...
...a boy has a penis, a girl has a vagina.
In the name of Jesus. Oh, thank you, Jesus.
-I mean, I don't have a problem with... -...gay people.
-I have gay friends. -I don't know anybody that doesn't have a gay friend.
-But these... -...transgender, intersex, nonbinary...
-...perverts-- -No offense.
-They're killing... -...girls' and women's sports.
[crowd boos]
-We need to save... -...women's swim team...
-...archery... -...women's volleyball, women's tennis.
-Even though... -...women's sports...
-...not as cool as... -...the men's sports.
Angelic reinforcement, angelic reinforcement.
[speaking in tongues]
We don't have a problem with transgender people.
-But, Lord, we ask you... -...please...
-...give us the power... -...to check...
...the exact size and shape of their genitals.
Just a little peek.
-In Jesus's name, we pray. -Hallelujah!
-Amen. -[all] Amen.
[audience laughing, applauding]
I've known I was trans from, um, my earliest memories.
Gender dysphoria is a disconnect from your mind and body.
So, what I could be feeling up here isn't the same thing
I see myself in the mirror as.
But gender-affirming care,
it helps us see what we feel.
It took me, I wanna say, almost eight months
of sending in authorizations,
getting medical necessity documents,
for example, going to counseling, going to therapy,
having all of the documentation lined up,
um, before they actually approved it.
So, at that point, I was just so relieved.
It finally made me feel, like, home in my body.
We're talking about allowing people the ability
to live in their own authenticity.
Legislators are trying to ban doctors from providing gender-affirming care.
Our state representatives claim to be pro-life,
but they want to play with children's lives.
This is health care, and it shouldn't be a game.
[audience applauding]
All right. So, gender-affirming care.
There's... [stammers] ...obviously very strong feelings about it.
But what is the deal of it?
We've assembled a panel that can tell us what it is, what it's not,
why people are trying to block access to it
and why they're trying to get access.
Keisha Michaels is with us.
She is the mother of a transgender teenager from Maryland.
Debi Jackson, mother of a transgender teenager from Missouri.
Chase Strangio, a lawyer with the ACLU
who's argued in front of the Supreme Court.
And Dr. Joshua Safer, endocrinologist at Mount Sinai
and an author of the Endocrine Society's guidelines
for gender-affirming care.
Welcome, everybody. Thank you for joining us.
All right. [audience applauding]
[stammers] I want to go right at it and-- and give you a sense of, you know,
it's a real, uh, hot-button issue in this country right now,
a culture war issue.
The critics are saying that gender-affirming care
is nothing more than, uh,
woke doctors and woke parents and activists, uh,
manipulating confused children into mutilations
and life-altering, uh, experimental drug therapies.
Now, you both have children.
What's your experience been with this?
Well, it's interesting that folks might say
that these are woke parents
'cause my husband and I weren't really woke about this.
[laughs] We had a child who was telling us that they--
that, you know, she's been a girl her whole life,
and we were not really listening.
-I'm not sure how woke we were. -Mm-hmm. Right.
I kind of wish we were more woke.
I wish we had been able to hear her sooner.
Um, took us a few years to really listen
and appreciate that she was telling us who she was.
Um, and when we did, she-- it was-- she was like a new child.
She just literally lit up, woke up.
She woke up when we supported her.
We said,
"We recognize that this is who you are,
and we're gonna support you in our house.
And we're gonna support you in your life."
-Wow. -And when that happened, she's like,
"This is amazing."
She really didn't have words for it as a ten-year-old.
She'd been telling us since she was three.
And since that time,
what we deal with now is a child who is now almost going to college.
-[Stewart] Right. -She's in high school.
And I told someone the other day, I said,
"You know, her being trans is the least interesting thing about her."
Right. Was this your experience as well?
Was it-- Was it something that shocked you?
Was it something that was difficult for you to accept?
Uh, yes. It was completely out of my realm of understanding.
I was very conservative, evangelical, you know, Southern Baptist, GOP.
But at the age of four, Avery said,
"Mom, you think that I'm a boy, but I'm a girl.
I'm a girl on the inside,"
and very directly told us. Um--
[clicks tongue] We had no idea what that meant.
Uh, again, this-- it was out of our thinking.
We thought maybe we have a gay boy who's confused.
We thought the same thing.
-We went to ask questions. -[chuckles]
We talked to doctors. We--
We went to endocrinologists just to check the XX, XYs,
all the things.
Um, and we had to come to understand
that our child knew who they were.
And, mind you, they're 15 now. This was more than a decade ago.
[Stewart] Right. They weren't influenced by TikTok.
-They weren't on Facebook. -[Michaels laughs]
Um, at four-- So you're saying this is YouTube.
-Yeah, clearly. Clearly. -[audience laughing]
-Maybe-- Maybe a Myspace page... -[all laughing]
Sure. ...they stumbled across.
You're saying that Friendster... Yeah.
Yes, exactly. Yeah.
Now, okay, so you live in a conservative community.
Now, generally that is where the energy
for the push against gender-affirming care is coming from.
The people in your life, knowing what you went through,
knowing what your child went through,
did that dent their belief system in any way?
I wish I could say it did.
Um, we were the most conservative out of all the families
in our, uh, friend group with kids at preschool and everything.
But when we said, "This is who our child is,"
um, we lost our-- all of our friends.
We really had to rebuild from the ground up
because we lost our entire support system.
So, Chase, you know, you're fighting in the legal arena here,
and-- and you're working for the ACLU, and you're seeing--
These families, they're all trying to come to terms with how to deal with this,
and it's a huge struggle.
Well, I wanna say-- Yeah, so first of all... [stammers]
...these parents, their experiences,
that's what we hear across the country... [Stewart] Mm-hmm.
...across communities and around the world,
that kids know who they are,
that what improves their health,
what makes them thrive is love and support.
When we hear about experimental surgery,
that is not happening on children, period.
Children means pre-pubertal children.
There are no medical interventions, period.
That is a distortion designed to make people support legislation
targeting our communities.
What we do know harms children,
for example, is removing them from loving homes.
That is what Governor Abbott is suggesting be done in Texas.
And this is all-- This has been really a rapid rise.
This has gone to,
"These are mutilations of children,
and we're going to step in as the state..."
[Michaels] Mm-hmm.
"...and take children out of homes
if they are going to abide by gender-affirming care."
Now, why are people doing this?
I think that there's two fundamental reasons why.
One, we're approaching midterms.
We're approaching a 2024 presidential election.
That cynical. It's that cynical.
It is that cynical. Wow.
Go to the early 2000s.
When did we start seeing
attacks on same-sex couples and marriage escalate?
Election years, mobilizing a voting base.
And then there's another reason,
which is an investment in a far-right, Christian ideology.
That is also fueling people.
But again, in theory we have a separation of church and state.
In theory we should be-- [Stewart] In this country?
-Well, we used to. Yeah, yeah. -[audience laughing]
I wasn't sure now. You may have had--
"Are you from, uh..." Okay. Yeah.
It was back in the Friendster days.
Oh, I understand. Okay. Yeah, yeah. [laughs]
But let me ask you, as-- as the doctor, then,
what is the harm of waiting until they're "the age of majority"?
What are the downsides of not giving gender-affirming care because--
or any of those drug therapies?
What would be the harm in waiting?
The statistic is something like 40% of kids who are--
who do not come into an affirming situation--
Which just means being respectful to them.
It doesn't mean any treatment in particular.
40% are contemplating suicide.
And, um, and-- and self-harm rates--
So these-- the guidelines that you wrote,
because you were-- you were responsible, with, uh, the endocrine board,
for writing guidelines of care for endocrinologists.
The Endocrine Society, yes. Yes.
[Stewart] The Endocrine Society.
And-- And that was based on, uh, research papers, data,
the things that you saw intervening with gender-affirming care,
which may be just being respectful,
or, as they get older, some of these other things.
You've seen that have, uh, a reduction in depression,
a reduction in suicide.
That's what you've studied.
Absolutely. And-- And to be really clear, you used the word "woke."
Um, the medical establishment is-- is not woke.
[all laughing] At all.
At all. [laughs]
I'm sorry, my doctor in Greenwich Village would beg to differ.
[audience, panelists laughing]
Uh, that's understood.
And so then what the-- it shifts to is,
this is a profit center for you.
That this is a cynical exploitation by Big Pharma
to make money off of confused children.
[Safer] That too is crazy
because the areas of medicine
that are brought in for gender-affirming care
are heavily mental health, pediatrics, primary care, endocrinology.
If you look up where the-- where the money centers are in medicine,
those are not they.
I had five colonoscopies last week.
[audience, panelists laughing]
-Not part of gender-affirming care. -[Jackson chuckles]
First, I'd like to just make sure
we clarify the different types of transitions
because we've talked about-- there's no medical intervention.
So, Avery socially transitioned at the age of four.
So it was just name, pronouns, hair,
saying daughter instead of son.
Um, before we did that kind of affirmation,
Avery was depressed, talked about death all the time,
and actually tried to jump out of our car--
-At four? -At four. Just could not handle it.
Doing that kind of social affirmation gave us a kid who smiled again,
who said, "Mommy, I love you," all the time.
We have a whole year between three and four
where we don't have a photo of Avery smiling.
And that changed just through social affirmation.
So when people call us child abusers and say it's horrible to do this, it's--
They don't understand the realities.
Is that the razor's edge you feel like you're living in, Keisha?
That you feel like it's such a fragile situation that,
"I have to do everything I can to save this child's life"?
That's how I felt before she transitioned.
[Stewart] Right. So, the year before she transitioned, I knew--
She was also verbalizing that she did not want to live.
She, uh-- [stammers] And I-- I said, "I don't want to lose my child."
So we may have had our head in the sands about what was really going on...
Mm-hmm. ...uh, acknowledging this.
So, yes, there was a razor's edge for sure at that point.
Once we actually affirmed this child...
she's actually been fine.
[laughs] She's on her phone too much.
-That's her biggest problem. -[audience laughing]
-And so, she needed-- -My child only reads novels.
[audience laughing] Exactly, right?
I-- Well, I-- Not true in our house.
But I will say that, uh, once she tran--
Honestly, once she had the "gender-affirming care" of her parents.
Let's say that. [Stewart] Right.
Gender-affirming care starts at home.
And so once she had her parents' gender-affirming care,
everything else just kind of fell into place for her.
For most kids who are trans,
having to go through a puberty that doesn't match their identity
is quite traumatic.
So anytime that we can prevent that from happening for them,
I think it is particularly helpful.
Now, not every person who is trans wants something done to their body,
so I do wanna make sure that we make that point.
But for a lot of folks--
And the gender-affirming care is supposed to
figure out what's right
for each individual child. For that-- Exactly.
Chase, the legal battle now is to not give parents that choice.
To basically say, "We understand.
You can call your child whatever name you want, whatever pronoun,
but we will not put them--
We will not allow them to go through this gender-affirming care."
It's-- I think the words they use are
"permanent," "irreversible," "does untold damage"...
Yeah. The politicians-- The parental rights politicians of,
"My kid doesn't have to wear a mask,
I don't have to vaccinate my kid,
my kid doesn't have to learn critical race theory in school,"
are passing laws that say we are going to take away the ability of parents
to give their children lifesaving care.
And they're making arguments like, "It's a fad."
That they're being subjected to social transition.
Well, you know what? I grew up as a young trans person in a totally different time.
You know the one trans-masculine person that I knew about? Brandon Teena.
You know what happened to him? He was murdered.
I had nothing else. That was the reality.
And now, there are more people, thankfully, who can live
because they have loving parents who are able to go to affirming doctors.
-[Stewart] Right. -But the state is coming in,
many states, passing laws trying to ban this care.
Um, starting with Arkansas, the first state to do it in 2021.
Now we have additional states,
and we're fighting across the country
to try to make sure that parents can get the medically supported care
and make decisions in conjunction with their doctors
to save their kids' lives.
Well, then, uh, I think
the only thing to do at this point
is to go talk to the Attorney General of Arkansas.
[Strangio] Mmm.
Uh, and, uh, we will do that.
Uh, I want to thank you all very much for being here.
Keisha, Debi, uh, Chase, and Dr. Safer.
Thank you so much for being here.
-[audience applauding] -Uh, take a look at this.
[audience laughing]
Two genders?
What, do you think I, God Almighty,
creator of heaven and earth and calzones,
made only two kinds of humans, yes?
You basic, bipedal fucks. I deserve way more credit than that.
Have you seen the complexity of my work?
Look, let me-- let me find something here. [stammering] Look at this.
Platypus. Look at this guy. He's got tits, fur, a bill, lays eggs.
And those tits, they're not ornamental. They work.
Do you get it? I like trying shit. It's fun for me. It's what I do.
But lo, I say unto thee, I'm not a fan of critics.
I created humans, and I love you all,
but like I said to the dinosaurs,
-"Fuck around and find out." -[audience laughing]
Before I go, l-let me show you some of my latest stuff here. Look at this.
AnaHonda. [car alarm beeps]
Half snake, half Honda.
What's this right here?
Hotter, an otter that is incredibly hot.
And so cute with her glaze, with her clam.
Cheese river. River flowing with cheese.
Eh, I'm just kidding. You wish, motherfuckers.
All right. Aliens are real. I'm out.
[audience cheering, applauding]
Hey.
So,
as I mentioned to our distinguished panel, we went to Arkansas.
And we didn't just talk to, like, somebody off the street.
We talked to the Attorney General of Arkansas.
[audience member groans]
-[Stewart whines] -[audience laughing]
[Stewart] Is it Attorney Generals or Attorneys General?
-Attorneys General. -Attorneys General.
It's a very odd plural.
Attorney General Rutledge.
That's right. Thank you for joining us.
Tell us about the SAFE Act. What is the SAFE Act?
We passed law in Arkansas a couple of years ago called the SAFE Act,
which stands for Save Adolescents From Experimentation.
And essentially what it does, Jon, is to prevent, uh, young people
from being, uh-- go through these experimental procedures
to transition their gender from male to female
and from female to male.
What do you mean by experimentation?
Well, all of these, uh, drugs we're talking about
have not been approved,
and these are experimental procedures
to transition, uh, these young people, these adolescents essentially,
from male to female... Mm-hmm.
...or from female to male.
And what we passed in Arkansas
was to simply say that you can't do that,
that we are going to protect these children.
So this is-- Doesn't prevent them as an 18-year-old--
I think that's what's important... Right.
...for Arkansans and Americans to understand.
This does not prevent someone at age 18 from making that decision.
How many Arkansans in the last five years before the law was passed
had that surgery, uh,
to transition from male to female or female to male as a minor?
Well, that answer I don't know, uh, Jon.
Uh, in our research, it was zero.
So it's-- it definitely hasn't happened.
So you're saying this is--
It's purely a preventative measure.
It's not stopping something that's currently happening.
This is predominantly to also protect them from those drugs,
uh, that are being used to change their hormones.
That it's not only-- Right.
You know, when people think of transitioning
they think of having actual surgery.
-Right. -Whether that's--
But it's not simply the surgery.
It's hormone suppressants and puberty blockers
that we're talking about.
So, let me give you the-- the flip side of it.
I think a lot of people might say, including myself, uh,
it's surprising that the state would say,
"We wanna make a decision for your family and your child to protect them,"
even though the American Medical Association,
the American Association of Pediatrics,
the Endocrine Society,
the American Association of Psychiatrists,
all recommend a certain set of guidelines
for children that are expressing gender dysphoria.
So I guess my surprise is,
why would the state of Arkansas step in to override
parents, physicians, psychiatrists, endocrinologists,
who have developed guidelines?
Why would you override those guidelines?
Well, I think it's important that all of those physicians,
all of those experts--
For every single one of them, there's an expert that says,
"We don't need to allow children to be able to take those medications."
That there are many instances where-- Right.
But you know that's not true.
You know it's not, "For every one, there's one."
There's, "These are the established medical"--
Well, I don't know that that's not true. I don't know that you know that.
Why would you pass a law, then, if you don't--
if you don't know that that's true?
Well, I know that there are doctors and that we had plenty of people come
-and testify before our legislature... -Mm-hmm.
...who said that, uh, you know,
we have 98% of the young people who have gender dysphoria are--
Right.
...that they are able to move past that.
And once they have the-- the help that they need,
no longer suffer from gender dysphoria. 98%.
-Wow. -Without, uh, that medical treatment--
That's an-- That's an incredibly made-up figure.
[audience laughing] That's--
That doesn't comport with any of the studies
or documentation that exists
from these medical organizations.
What-- What medical association are you talking about of these doctors?
Well, we have all of that in our, uh, legislative history,
and we'll be glad to provide that to you.
Uh, I don't have the name of that off the top of my head. I know--
You don't have the name of the organization? That--
Off the top of my head.
-Oh, okay. -But, yes.
We have all of that cited in all of our briefs.
You're suggesting that protecting children means overriding the recommendations
of the American Medical Association, the American Association of Pediatrics,
the Endocrine Society?
We don't have enough data.
We don't have enough to show that these drugs are effective
and that these children are better off and that we should encourage--
You don't have enough, or it's not enough for you?
Let-- Let me try and flip it a different way
and see if maybe this-- this can help.
In Arkansas, if you have pediatric cancer--
And obviously we all wanna protect children.
I think we established that earlier.
Whose guidelines do you follow for pediatric cancer?
Well, I think, if my child, who is four--
If I was faced with that terrible, uh, decision,
then I would be speaking to my doctor.
And if my doctor recommended something that I disagreed with,
then I would get a second opinion.
And that's why I believe that these parents need to make sure
that they're encouraged to get numerous opinions
when they're talking about an irreversible step.
You're not letting them.
The state's not saying, "Get another opinion."
What they're saying is, "You can't."
What you're actually saying is the opposite.
That's actually not at all what the state said.
The state simply said that you cannot perform these procedures.
And so, parents should get another opinion. That they--
And children should want to have another opinion.
-But that's not-- -Because, again, these are nine, ten--
So, if your child is suffering from pediatric cancer
and the state comes in and says to you,
"They recommend chemotherapy, but we're not going to let you do that.
You can't.
We think you should get a different opinion,
and here's the organization we think you should get the opinion from.
They're not the mainstream, but they're an organization.
So, that's how you-- That's who you have to be treated by."
Does that sound like something you would accept?
I think that's a very extreme example
that's not at all in line with what we're talking about.
We're not saying that at some point--
Because when you have cancer, it literally is--
And particularly pediatric cancer,
and having friends that have lost children...
-Sure. -...to pediatric cancer--
-Having a four-year-old, I'm sure-- -I've got some bad news for you.
Parents with children who have gender dysphoria
have lost children to suicide and depression...
-They absolutely have. -...because it's acute.
And so, these mainstream medical organizations have developed guidelines
through peer-reviewed data and studies.
And through those guidelines, they've improved mental health outcomes.
So, I'm confused why you follow
AMA guidelines and AAAP guidelines
for all other health issues in Arkansas,
because we checked,
but not for this.
It's simply saying,
"Let those young people who are facing gender confusion and dysphoria--
Allow them to become adults and to make that decision.
Allow a child to be a child."
So, here's where we have our-- our crossroads.
You've made the determination that protecting these children
means not giving them access to the guidelines in care
that have been designed by medical and mental health professionals
for children expressing gender dysphoria.
And I'm asking you again,
what are your qualifications to step in and say,
"No. Keeping you from that care is protecting you."
You've made that determination.
Well, these are irreversible decisions that these children at these young ages
are making or that their parents--
They're not making the decision.
You're making it sound like
a nine-year-old walks into a doctor's office and says,
"Give me some testosterone."
And the doctor goes, "Oh, thank God.
Because we're wanting to create an army of transgenders because we're crazy."
And, they go right in like-- No.
We passed a law to protect the children in Arkansas,
and I think that's what is important.
Again, the medical community disagrees with you that that's protecting children.
-Well, not all of the medical community. -Who doesn't?
We have had experts testify here in Arkansas.
Okay. From what medical organizations?
Well, we have all of those in our briefs.
And I apologize that I wasn't prepared to have a Supreme Court argument today
in front of you.
But, uh, we are going to have arguments on this case...
-Right. -...uh, when the time comes.
Let me ask you this. Do you think gender and sex are complicated?
I think it's obvious that it is complicated.
-And for these young people-- -So why make a black-and-white decision?
And for those that are faced with this confusion,
I think we need to give them the help they need.
Who do you want to give the mental health care?
Because you've already said
that the guidelines from the American Psychiatric Association are not correct.
To them, a successful, uh, conclusion of this
is a child who determines, with their family and their caregivers
and their mental health, uh, experts and their physician,
what the best course of treatment is.
It may be that they get into it and decide,
"This is not for me. I'm not actually transgender."
But you're stepping in and saying, "That's not the help they need."
Well, I think it is important for them to...
[stammers] ...speak to and have that mental health treatment.
Just because, again, that we disagree with whether or not they can have
gender-transitioning medications or surgeries
does not mean that they can't have the opportunity to speak to
licensed therapists and psychiatrists.
But you understand, when you go to speak to a psychiatrist,
they have guidelines that they follow.
And the guidelines are developed through peer review studies.
What I'm saying is that our reasoning behind passing this law in Arkansas
is not to discriminate,
but it's simply to protect and allow those children to continue to develop.
We're not gonna allow young people, a 16-year-old, or-- to vote.
We're not gonna let them buy cigarettes. We're not gonna let them...
-So you're-- -...do all of these things--
You're suggesting that buying cigarettes is equivalent to gender dysphoria?
No, I'm not suggesting that.
I'm saying that we have laws that are recognized
that we say that age of majority is the point in which someone
-can make a decision for-- -So--
-If a child says, "I'm depressed"-- -Can't even rent a car until you're 25.
Okay. So, why allow children to get access to ADHD medication,
or depression medication, or bipolar medication?
Well, it's because it's changing permanently.
-It's not. It's just not. -It's not changing--
Puberty blockers aren't changing people permanently. They're-- They're just not.
And the bar to get things
that have maybe slightly more permanence to it
is higher.
And it takes longer. That's how the guidelines have been developed.
Arkansas has simply said, "We're going to allow these children to be children."
And as they are--
And we wanna, again, encourage them to have access to the mental health care.
Because none of us can imagine,
whether it's my daughter, your daughter, your son, anybody--
If my daughter or my son came to me in agony,
and I knew there was a program that I could get them into
that had positive effects on their mental health,
I would swim across rivers and climb mountains
and tunnel through whatever I needed to get to
to save that child's life.
-And my guess is you'd do the same. -And I think--
And I truly hope you're never faced with that decision.
Because I imagine it's agonizing for the parent.
-Yes. -And it's agonizing for the child.
But the fact that you've removed that option for people
seems antithetical to the values you profess to espouse.
Well, again, nothing is going to stop that child,
when he or she turns 18, from being able to make this decision.
Well, something will stop them: if they don't turn 18.
I mean, I don't think it's fair to put-- and to say to a child,
"You're going to kill yourself if you don't take this medicine."
-That's essentially what you-- -[scoffs] What?
-That's all you talk about is... -Who's saying that?
...that the suicide rate is through the roof for these young people.
The suicide rate isn't through the roof
because doctors want them to take the medicine.
It's because they live in a state
where who they are is actually something that is viewed as,
uh, something that needs to be legislated.
That a lot of the pressure that they feel isn't from who they are
but from society's reaction to who they are.
And from people like the state of Arkansas outlawing the treatment
that can help their mental, uh, health and their physical health.
-All I've heard from you... -Mm-hmm.
...and from this very vocal minority--
What "vocal minority" are you talking about?
The opponents of our law in Arkansas and those who are challenging it.
Not just the plaintiffs--
"Vocal minority" meaning the AMA, the AAP, the Endocrine Society.
You're saying that "vocal minority"?
But it's a vocal minority of Americans, and I think that's what's important.
And of Arkansans.
Why don't you consider allowing children who are experiencing gender dysphoria--
Isn't it experimentation to not put them through treatment?
Isn't that also experimentation?
Why are you willing to experiment on them by doing nothing?
I'm not saying let's do nothing.
Well, you're not saying to follow the guidelines.
-So... [stammers] ...what should you do? -Well, they're "guidelines."
I'm saying get a second opinion. Talk--
Talk to other doctors. Talk to family. Let this child--
But isn't that experimentation?
How is that not experimentation?
Because this other stuff has been determined through data and peer review.
But we haven't had enough data and peer review.
So it's all an experiment, isn't it?
I have to be honest with you.
The care and guidelines for transgender children
seem a lot more considered and thought-out
than the law preventing them from getting it,
where you can't even cite the medical organization that agrees with you.
So, if we're talking about
one decision that seems rash and one decision that seems conservative,
it's the guidelines for transition seems conservative,
and the law seems rash.
Well, I believe that the outcry--
And by those who are wanting to use these young people as political pawns--
And to attack those of us who put these sort of laws in place...
-Uh-huh. Right. -...are the ones who are, in fact,
putting these children at risk and making them--
And putting them on public display
and making it part of the mainstream media conversation.
This was not part of the mainstream media conversation, uh,
five years ago, ten years ago.
But now these children are being put on display
by those who are claiming to protect them,
when, instead, we need to ensure, again,
that they are working through this with their own families,
their own doctors, their communities--
You're-- You're making that illegal.
[audience laughing] All right.
Uh, we do appreciate you sitting down and talking to us about it.
And, uh, I-- I hope that, uh, the law is--
is shot down.
-Because I do think... -[audience laughing, applauding]
...that these children are in a very vulnerable situation.
And I-- I disagree with you that this protects them.
I actually think the opposite.
-Oh. -But thank you.
Well, thank you for coming to Arkansas. Making a quick trip.
-Thank you, though. Appreciate it. -Thank you, Jon.
[audience laughing, applauding]
Worst Thanksgiving ever.
[audience laughing]
Yeah, yep.
I assume it felt watching it like it felt being there.
Little bit of sphincter tightening.
Uh, thank you, all, for watching this episode.
That's gonna put us all on the same page.
For more resources, check out these websites.
We also got the podcast there which, as you know, is a window to the soul.
Uh, and check out our website.
It's, uh, the best zeros and ones that have been put together on the Net.
Before we go, we always end the show on a low note.
Here it is, your moment of Cruz.
When Ketanji Brown Jackson was up for nomination...
[crowd boos]
...there was a reporter who ran up to me, all excited, and he said...
...he was asking every Senate Republican on the Judiciary Committee
the following question: "What is a woman?"
And he looks at me with this "gotcha."
And I turned to him and said,
"Um, an adult female human?"
[chuckles] You sly dog.
[audience laughing, cheering, applauding]