NARRATOR: A man calls police in Cornwall,
concerned about his sister and her children.
I knew that something horrible had happened,
and I was just hoping it was gonna be a dream, really.
What they're trying to do is assess, is this person at risk?
Has the person gone missing before?
Have they been the victim of any violence or any threats?
The crime scene will unlock the case.
We can see that the individual was definitely prepared,
or had some understanding about body disposal.
The problem with the offenders is they get to know the system.
They get to understand forensic evidence,
how the police work.
It's really important to act fast right from the start.
Science speaks the truth.
If the evidence is there, it's there.
We will find it.
Very emotional.
The hardest day in my life.
My uncle phoned me to say that, have I seen Lesley and the kids?
Ancl I said, "No. Why?"
"Because she's gone missing."
I said to him, "|'m going to phone the police in Cornwall."
Lesley Ford and four of her children,
Sarah Jane, Anne Marie, Steven and Craig
haven't been seen or heard from for several days.
When police take report of a missing person,
they have to assess the risk,
and they'll do that by ranking it as either low, medium or high risk.
Police have to consider the various different scenarios.
One was that Lesley was well somewhere
and she had taken her and her children there voluntary.
Another that harm had come to them.
There's a lot of work that's clone behind the scene
to try and identify where they have gone.
Also from a forensic perspective,
if they are not known on fingerprints and DNA
and not known on any databases,
it's important for us to get samples.
If the worst-case scenario, they are found dead and decomposed,
then we're able to identify through fingerprints and DNA.
It's really important to act fast right from the start
because there may be crucial evidence
that will get lost really quickly.
What they're trying to do is assess, is this person at risk?
They'll be looking at things like, has the person gone missing before?
What are the circumstances of the relationship they were in?
Have they been a victim of any violence or any threats?
Mum-of-six Lesley Ford lives with her second husband, Lee,
in the quiet hamlet of Carnkie.
She wanted a football team, I think, of kids.
We always thought that she was gonna beat my gran.
My gran actually had 19 children, so it was a big family.
She was a great mum.
She used to make it fun all the time with her kids.
She loved her kids to bits.
Lee seemed quite gentle,
and they seemed to have fun with him.
They would be in the garden playing basketball,
and they'd be laughing and joking.
Normal procedure would be,
the uniform officers would go to Lesley's home address.
They would need to investigate that.
They would need to understand, particularly from Lee,
well, where is Lesley? Is she missing? Where is she?
If you know where she is, when did you last see her, etc?
Officers find Lee and the two youngest children
at the family home.
When the police officers attend a scene,
they tend to get a bit of a feel about what might
or might not have happened there.
Was there signs of a disturbance?
Was there signs of items that probably are in the wrong place?
So, for example, a kitchen knife is in the bedroom.
Sometimes, scenes are cleaned up,
and therefore, there's very little forensic evidence there
to be able to link a crime.
There was nothing within the house to raise the suspicions
that any harm had come to the family.
Police asked Lee where his wife and four older children are.
Lee Ford gave them a story that he and Lesley had had an argument
and she'd left.
Lee tells police the couple had a fight about money.
He'd said that she went off in a posh car
with a guy, with the four kids.
He claims Lesley left around a month ago,
and he hasn't heard from her or the children since.
Ancl it seemed quite a plausible story.
He took schoolbooks for the children back to the school,
saying that they weren't coming back.
He gave some Christmas presents to a neighbour
to look after, just in case the children came back.
But the team needs evidence the family are alive and well.
Quite often on a missing person inquiry,
they“ use “cancer! search officers to search areas
where the victim was last seen.
They'll search large areas looking for clues.
Police will now be looking for what we call "signs of life".
Proof that they're still alive, that they're still well.
When were they last seen? Who saw them?
They would be looking for cash withdrawals from Lesley.
Has she been using her bank cards?
Were her or Sarah Jane using their mobile phones?
Ancl the family were last seen alive on the 31st of August.
The day before, a friend sent a text message
to 17-year-old Sarah Jane. She never replied.
Fears for the family grow.
I knew that something horrible had happened,
and I was just hoping it was gonna be a dream, really.
There was no sign of life.
This is the kind of thing
that would really, really raise the concerns of the police.
The police would now be starting to wonder whether this was actually
a murder investigation.
What they then have to do is look at, well,
if that's the case, who is it most likely to have harmed them?
There's a saying in murder investigations,
"To understand how somebody died,
"you have to understand how they lived."
Ancl that's because in most murders,
there's a link between the suspect and the victim.
In my heart, I knew what had happened,
cos she wouldn't have left them two kids.
'Lee Ford was their number one suspect.'
NARRATOR: Police in Cornwall fear a missing family has come to harm.
They can find no proof of life for Lesley Ford
and her four teenage children -
Sarah Jane, Anne Marie, Steven and Craig Tranter.
REPORTER: 'Officers had been alerted by Mrs Ford's concerned brother.
'She was last seen in August,
'and her children hadn't attended school at all this term.'
Lesley's husband, Lee, has told police
that she's left him for another man,
but they have serious doubts about his account.
Statistics show that in over half of cases,
the suspect is likely to be a partner
or ex-partner of the victim.
The information they got from Lesley's brother -
the relationship was violent.
This is the kind of thing
that would really, really raise the concerns of the police.
Recently divorced and already a mother of four,
Lesley met her second husband, Lee,
in their hometown of Telford in 1990.
He used to actually be quite pleasant and smarmy,
I suppose, in some ways, acting normal.
The relationship moves quickly.
The couple soon welcome two more children into the family,
but relatives become increasingly concerned.
After a while, the dynamics of their relationship
started to change, and Lee started to become controlling.
He would decide what she was wearing, who she could see.
She wasn't allowed to come and stay with the kids on their own,
or if she did, it would only be a couple of other kids, if anything,
but there would always be some left with Lee.
So it's a control thing again.
It was a bargaining point
to make sure that Lesley now would go back.
Lesley's ex-husband, Michael, tells police he's found it
increasingly difficult to see his children since she married Lee.
I was going round to pick up the children.
It didn't take long before he would come on the scene, saying,
they're not ready, they're not dressed,
come back in an hour.
Ancl then I was told that, no, they don't want to see me.
I asked to speak to Lesley,
and I was told that she didn't wanna speak to me.
I just thought that he didn't like me being on the scene,
knowing I was the father of the children.
The kind of behaviour that you would typically see
within that kind of relationship, where it is coercive control.
That controlling behaviour started to escalate,
and Lee Ford started to become violent towards Lesley.
The kids were really scared of him.
I think she was scared of him. Yeah. Yeah, she was very scared of him.
Domestic violence is a heinous crime and is a red flag to the police.
Based on Lee's violent history,
police are convinced that Lesley and the children
haven't left the family home unharmed.
When there's been a suggestion by the victim of separation
or a trial separation,
that produces an intense fear of abandonment and loss,
and a way to manage that intense anger
and those intense feelings of fear is to, in a way,
to prevent the separation, is to take the life of the partner.
Lesley has tried to leave Lee before.
Being in a coercive controlling relationship
it's often very difficult to get out of.
But Lesley took the brave step, and she did.
She took the children and she left.
Lesley did a runner with the children down to Cornwall.
Ancl she moved into a caravan.
But Ford is determined to find the family.
He used a very manipulative way of doing this -
phoning Lesley's mum.
He rang up posing as a solicitor,
saying that he needs to know where Lesley and the children are,
making sure they're safe and well,
and they need to come round and do a safe check.
That's how he found her.
And he moved to Cornwall.
She just let him back in.
I suppose because they've made you feel that you're not worth anything
and no-one would ever want you.
After tracking them down, Lee Ford moves the family
to the remote village of Carnkie, and tightens his grip over them.
Essentially, they were living in a hamlet.
Ancl if we're talking about a controlling relationship,
where Lee didn't want her to have access to friends and family, etc,
what better way of controlling Lesley
than moving her down to somewhere that they're gonna be isolated?
Where it's just him and her and the children,
and he could have complete control over them.
Lesley's personality did change,
but she acted like things were normal as well.
I suppose that's what they... people do in front of people.
If there's a history of domestic abuse,
often there's a social withdrawal
from their social activities and friendships.
There were no shops nearby.
The children had to travel in a car with Lee Ford to get to school.
All of this really, really added to Lee Ford's control over them.
Lesley's brother tells police
that a couple of weeks before the family went missing,
she contacted him, distraught.
I had a phone call from Lesley saying that she thought
that Anne Marie ancl Sarah Jane was being sexually abused by Lee.
Peter, my ex-brother-in-law, rang up and said Lesley's found him
in my daughter's bedroom.
Peter pleads with Lesley to take the children to a women's refuge.
That was my last words to her.
Officers returned to the family home to confront Lee about the abuse,
and again ask if he knows the family's whereabouts.
But he and the two younger children have vanished.
This is now a manhunt.
They now have to find this person as a matter of urgency.
They'll be looking for any intelligence
that would indicate where he may have gone to.
Fearful for the younger children's safety,
the team releases a statement to the media.
By using a press conference that may prompt him
to act in ways that may benefit the investigation.
If harm had come to Lesley and the children,
could he try and dispose of any evidence?
The team receives intelligence that Ford is 285 miles away.
The police discovered that Lee Ford had travelled to Telford
with his two biological kids
to leave them at their grandparents' house.
Ford is next sighted at Lesley's parents' address.
He actually took everything round to my parents,
all their bits and pieces.
My mum, I actually don't even know what was in the bags,
she put it straight up in the attic.
Ancl he said, "Give this all to your daughter when you see her."
Offenders get to know the system.
They get to understand forensic evidence,
how the police work.
So an offender is unlikely to store bloodstained clothing,
a machete or any other weapon at his home address.
No-one has seen Lee since.
As a team of licenced search officers travel to Telford,
police traffic squads across the country are put on red alert.
The Police National Computer, so PNC,
it's able for a police force to put markers on there to say,
"This vehicle needs to be stopped as soon as possible."
The team get a hit.
The vehicle is heading back towards Cornwall.
The police set up a road trap on Bodmin Moor.
And that's where he was stopped.
REPORTER: 'Detectives had been quizzing Lee Ford
'at this police station,
'looking for clues as to what happened to the young mum
'and her teenage children.'
Because he was arrested,
police were able to take his DNA and fingerprints.
Specialist police interviewers prepare to grill Lee
about the whereabouts of Lesley and the four older children.
But before they get the chance, he changes his story.
He just admitted that he'd killed all five.
The police actually told us he confessed in the cell
with his solicitors present.
Familicide is the killing of three or more family members
by somebody, is relatively rare.
The risk is one in 10 million.
Killing the children as well as the partner
is actually really, really unusual.
Lee directs officers to look in the garden of the family home.
The scene is secured, and CSI is called in.
When the police officers do a house search,
they will always search the house, any vehicles, and also the garden,
looking for anything that might lead to the disappearance.
Obviously, if there was an area in the garden
that had been freshly dug,
then that would be highlighted to the crime scene manager.
But in this case, there was no obvious area
where it appeared that a body had been buried.
The best plan, really, is to get all your specialists there
at the scene, to a briefing,
to decide what you're gonna do and how you're going to do it.
I would absolutely ensure that I had a forensic archaeologist
at the scene to effectively recover and find the bodies.
I had a phone call to say that the forensic teams
were gonna go into the house.
There was a very strong smell coming from the garden,
and in particular, the woodshed,
which was down the bottom of the garden.
The smell of decomposition is unmistakable.
It's a smell that will stay with you for life.
From a forensic perspective,
it's clear that something is dead out there.
When a body is decomposing,
it emits something called volatile chemicals or VOCs.
The bacteria that naturally live in our gut
no longer have an immune system to keep them in check,
and they start to overproduce, and they emit smells.
A forensic strategy has to be written.
A senior investigating officer will need to know,
what am I dealing with?
There needs to be a systematic, slow examination of the woodshed.
They were able to find items that are wrapped in material
which look like potential bodies.
They told us that they'd found the first body,
and we just watched it, actually, on TV, really.
The bits and pieces just kept... on the news, really,
waiting for more.
Then they found the three bodies there.
The team are in no doubt the remains are human.
The human skeletal form is quite unique.
Our hands, our feet, our skull are completely different
from any other members of the animal kingdom.
These morphological differences between humans and animals
are some of the first things we look for when we go to a scene.
We can see that the individual had some understanding
about body disposal, because they weren't dumped,
they weren't left exposed,
which would possibly indicate a rush or a hurry.
This individual took their time,
was very careful and very thoughtful about the choices that they made.
The bodies were clearly prepared and placed there
with a sense of purpose.
The identities of the bodies are concealed.
The remains are sent to the mortuary for formal identification,
still wrapped in the bed sheets, to preserve evidence.
The police are investigating five missing people.
There are only three in this woodshed.
What they need to do now is find out, where are the other two?
Science speaks the truth.
If the evidence is there, we will find it.
NARRATOR: Lee Ford has confessed to killing
his wife and four stepchildren.
In the family garden, CSls have made a grisly discovery.
Three bodies wrapped in bed sheets buried under a woodshed.
But with five people missing,
police need Ford to tell them where he's put the other two bodies.
He says two officers that initially came round in relation
to the missing person report spooked him,
and he felt that he now needed to move the bodies
before police come back and did a proper search.
He says he drove the two bodies about five miles...
...to a potato field.
Where he dug a shallow grave.
Police cordon off the field.
An outdoor scene in a field is very difficult scene to examine.
You've got the weather conditions, you've got inclement rain,
potential farmers that have used the field for growing crops.
When the police have to search large areas
for potential human remains,
it's a very useful tool to be able to use a sniffer dog.
So, there are clogs within the police
that are trained on different aspects.
Some are trained to do drug searches and search for money,
but there are also clogs that are trained to search for cadavers.
These clogs are invaluable to identifying particular areas,
to be able to reduce the search area
for the licenced search officers and the CSls
to then concentrate their efforts on a particular area.
If a body is left exposed and outdoors,
you might smell it once you get quite close to it.
But if you're far away, you probably wouldn't notice anything.
The cadaver dog definitely would be able to smell it.
A possible burial site is identified, and excavation begins.
Two additional bodies were recovered.
These were young teenage girls.
Cos girls actually develop quite a bit faster than boys,
they would have already started to look like women,
like have a female shape to the skeleton.
So even upon initial inspection,
we would be able to say that these were young women.
Police suspect these are the bodies of 17-year-old Sarah Jane
and 15-year-old Anne Marie.
There was nothing in my mind that it wasn't them at all.
All right, I suppose in some ways, in your heart, you wish it wasn't,
but it was definitely gonna to be them.
Despite Ford's confession,
the team needs to formally identify the bodies.
At the mortuary, the pathologist begins by carefully unwrapping
the three bodies found beneath the woodshed.
One of the key things would be to help identify
some features of these individuals. So, how old they were
and whether they were likely to be male or female.
An anthropologist is able to age people via bones and skeletons.
It was an adult female and two teenage males.
The adult skeleton is fully formed, it has finished growing,
whereas a child's skeleton is still in the process
of growing and developing.
So the bones aren't adult-size, they are smaller.
The ends of the bones haven't fully developed,
and attach themselves to the main part of the bone.
Also, the two younger individuals,
they probably hadn't hit their growth spurt yet,
so they would have been quite small, relative to the adult skeleton.
The bodies under the woodshed are believed to be Lesley
and her two sons, Steven and Craig.
They had the same degree of decomposition,
which intimates that they were probably killed
around the same time.
It wasn't possible to do facial recognition
or identify them on fingerprints.
In this case, there was another way of identifying the remains,
and that was by dental records.
So at the postmortem,
where forensic odontologists would be brought in.
The odontology is fast-tracked.
The DNA from the teeth matched the dental records
of Lesley, Anne Marie, Sarah Jane, Steven and Craig.
You've seen someone's being murdered or something like that,
before this happened to me,
and you think, "God, how would I feel?"
But I know how they feel now.
I know how they felt at that time.
Ancl it's very hard and not nice.
It's not nice at all.
In some ways, you were hoping that they were gonna walk through
the door and it is a big dream.
Erm, very emotional.
The hardest clay of my life.
I worked in an army depot, and on the bus was Lesley.
She used to work in the care home.
I was on the same bus every clay,
and we soon started saying hello to each other, "Good morning."
Ancl then it developed from there.
We got together.
Ancl it was lovely.
She was a bubbly person, always laughing.
She was always smiling. Funny girl.
Lesley gave birth in 1983 to Sarah Jane.
Beautiful little girl. Erm...
Absolutely changed us as a person.
Sarah Jane was definitely a mummy's girl.
Although she was fine with both of us, she was always Mummy first.
We had Anne Marie.
She was born a year later.
She was very clingy to me.
If I went out of the room, whichever room I was in,
she'd be there with me.
She'd just follow me around.
And then we had Steven Paul.
He was a happy little boy, kicking a football around,
even at an early age.
We planned on having the children all together
so they could grow up together.
And we decided that we'd have another one,
which was Craig Jonathan. He was born a-year-and-a-half later.
Ancl again, that made our family. It was beautiful.
In custody, police ask Lee Ford how he killed his family.
On a police interview, he admitted to arguing with his wife, Lesley,
about money, and beating her around the head with a rounders bat.
Then he went to the garage and came across some rope.
His account is that he just flipped and saw the rope,
and then decided to go back...
...to attack Lesley.
Ford tells officers that over 24 hours,
he strangled his stepchildren in the kitchen.
It appears that he's targeted the children one by one,
and called them into the kitchen,
and grabbed them from behind and strangled them.
His version of events to the police
is the fact that they wouldn't have known anything
because he jumped them from behind.
This is such a heinous crime.
As a homicide detective,
dealing with child murders was always the hardest for me.
Something that you could never really get used to.
It was always hard, maybe being a parent.
So looking at this crime, looking at four children
and how they died in those circumstances,
for me, is harrowing.
Sometimes, stepchildren are more likely to be killed
in those cases because the stepchildren are seen
as an extension of their partner.
Ancl so in order to really hurt the partner,
they will kill her children as well.
Lee is charged with five counts of murder, but he pleads not guilty.
He pleaded not guilty on a sanity case, that he flipped.
But most people, actually, who flip and kill their family
kill theirs elves as well.
Ancl why would they keep two kids alive and not kill all of them?
So, he was just hoping to get away with it
so he didn't go to prison, I suppose.
He didn't think of the step kids like his own kids
because he would have actually killed his own kids as well.
He had no feelings for the kids, considering, actually,
he'd brought them up for 11 years
and they've been in his life for 11 years.
There was no love or anything in there at all.
Lee refuses psychiatric assessment.
Police have to prove how it happened.
What were the circumstances?
Even though Lee Ford had confessed to killing Lesley and the children,
that doesn't really alter the process
that the police have to go through.
Because they still need to prove the case against him.
For instance, he could go to court and he could say,
"Actually, that confession was given under duress,"
or he could change his mind.
Police have to carry on as if he hasn't said anything.
Even if someone confesses to a crime,
it's still important for us to forensically prove that,
because someone may change their mind in court.
Ancl if the police haven't examined everything
and provided a watertight case, the case could fall down.
Police turn to the science.
At the potato field, CSls recover potential evidence.
You want to try and put the vehicle of the offender there,
because it's impossible to carry dead bodies very far.
Close to the body, there were some tyre track marks
which may or may not have been linked to an offender's vehicle.
Obviously, at the time of any investigation,
you're not sure what evidence is relevant and what isn't relevant.
These tyre track marks would've been photographed by a CSI.
They would've been photographed
with a camera on a tripod using a scale,
being able to photograph the full length
of the tyre track mark.
After it's been photographed,
they will cast them with casting material,
which is a little bit like plaster of Paris.
The casting material is mixed up at the scene.
Ancl then it's poured very carefully into the tyre track.
This actually takes an impression of the tyre track mark.
Which can then be examined by forensic scientists,
and be compared to tyres
that may or may not have made that impression.
The tyre tracks are sent for comparison with Lee's car,
as CSls recover another possible trace.
They find a face mask that has obviously been dropped in the field.
DNA testing on this face mask
confirmed that this was the offender's DNA.
This almost shows some preplanning.
That he's worn a face mask when he's transported the bodies,
because the bodies were starting to decompose,
and therefore the smell was very strong.
This shows some preplanning.
In Telford, search officers investigate
the belongings he dropped off.
The items that he dropped off at the grandparents' house
included some bed linen.
An examination of these sheets
indicated that there was blood on these sheets.
There was quite a large amount of blood distribution,
which fit with a medium impact velocity spatter pattern.
When blood is found on an item,
it's normally tested to confirm that it's blood,
and the police normally use a KM test, a Kastle-Meyer test,
which is a simple colour change test to confirm if it's blood or not.
The blood is DNA-tested.
Ancl it was confirmed by the forensic lab
that the blood on these sheets had come from Lesley.
This fits with the story that he had attacked Lesley
with a rounders bat, while she was lying on the bed, potentially.
Lee has hidden evidence of his violent crimes 285 miles away.
Together, the evidence is mounting that this was premeditated murder.
The police reckoned he knew how to cover up what he'd clone.
In this case, there was a reason
for why the bodies were in quite an advanced stage of decomposition.
The killer had actually covered the bodies in calcium hydroxide,
which is lime,
which would speed up the decomposition of the flesh.
The fact that he put lime onto these bodies
could suggest that he was forensically aware.
He knew what to do, if the situation presented itself.
This is clearly a premeditated attack.
Someone that knows what they're doing,
someone that's thought out how they're going to do it,
and what they're going to do with the bodies.
One of the things that's so kind of chilling about familicide
is that we often think about family as the safe haven
from all that's bad in the outer world.
It's the place where we feel protected,
and particularly the role of fathers in terms of...
traditionally seen as the head of the household,
they often take on that role of protector of the family.
So when they enact something like this
and enact the most extreme form of violence on their family,
it's absolutely chilling.
NARRATOR: Lee Ford has confessed
to killing his wife and four stepchildren.
He claims he wasn't of sound mind at the time,
but police have unearthed evidence
that suggests he knew exactly what he was doing.
Killing five people in an identical way
was a very planned and premeditated attack.
Forensic experts have found that the bodies were covered
in calcium hydroxide to speed up decomposition.
Lee Ford used polythene bags to move the two bodies,
and for very good reason.
Because of the state of decomposition
that the two bodies were in,
the smell would have been overwhelming.
It's no surprise that Lee Ford used a face mask
in order to carry that out.
He's left behind tell-tale signs.
In about a third of cases of familicide,
substance use does play a role in terms of intoxication
at the time of the deaths,
whether through alcohol use or through substances.
So it might be that those substances have created a kind of distortion
in the perpetrator's thinking.
However, in, actually, the majority of cases,
there isn't any signs of intoxication.
Ancl actually, perpetrators in the main are very lucid
when they enact a familicide.
Although the offender has admitted to quite a lot of this crime,
it's really important to have the forensic evidence
to back up not only his story,
but also to boost the police prosecution case.
It's down to the police to prove what has actually happened.
So forensic evidence can be vitally important in a court of law.
Faced with the evidence of his cover-up,
Lee Ford changes his plea to guilty.
You feel relieved in some ways,
but you don't in another because you don't know why.
Cos he doesn't have to say why he did it.
So, you know, it's there all these years, 23 years later.
Lee insists he doesn't know why he did it.
But Lesley and the children's families have their own theory
about Ford's motive.
He killed Lesley and the kids
cos if there was something going on between him and Sarah Jane,
there's no evidence there, I suppose.
I think he was hoping all the way through
that he weren't gonna lose his children -
the two remaining kids.
Not long before their deaths, Lesley sought advice
from a solicitor about getting full custody of all six children.
If a separation has been instigated by the partner,
that feeling of loss can sometimes produce
a sense of rage and hostility,
and one of the ways of dealing with that feeling
of loss and hostility is to enact the most severe form of violence.
The family are laid to rest in their hometown of Telford.
At the funeral, I was really numb.
It was only two miles away from where me and Lesley lived
before we had the children.
Very emotional clay, obviously.
It was so hard.
The morning was so hard because, obviously,
my front garden was covered in flowers, wreaths.
Ford is given five life sentences
and must serve a minimum term of 27 years.
He's taken five lives.
To be honest, I feel as though he's taken more than that,
because he's taken mine, and my family suffer,
and, obviously, Lesley's family suffered.
How he's only been given 27 years is beyond me.
It really is.
Feel as though I've got the sentence. Not him.
So, yeah.
The anger's still there, it really is.
The tariff would have been better
if he was never gonna ever see the light of clay again,
that he was gonna stay in prison until he dies.
Friends of Sarah Jane's and Anne Marie's, erm,
set up this petition.
In 2027, he can put in for parole.
So, hopefully, if we had the petition, actually,
and we can get the votes and get into Parliament,
then perhaps we might be able to stop him from being allowed
to put in for parole, and hopefully, he will stay there then,
in prison until he dies.
It would be the little piece, for me,
to say, "Right, he's where he should be."
He should never come out.
He should stay where he is.
Ancl that's also because, if he does come out,
what's he gonna do when he does come out?
Is he gonna do it to anybody else?
Because of what my family has gone through,
what my children, obviously, have been through,
it's for... it's for all five.
I want justice for them.
Missing family is probably the worst thing.
Ancl missing Lesley being there -
a phone call away.
Very hard.
I can imagine her now with all her grandchildren running around her.
She would have been a great gran.
They're buried together.
I do go up there regular.
Ancl I can sit up there for up to two hours talking.
Very hard, but very...
It helps me.
The children and Lesley, erm...
...are with me every clay.
You never lose their memories. Never.