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NARRATOR:
A man calls police in Cornwall,
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concerned about his sister
and her children.
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I knew that something horrible
had happened,
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and I was just hoping
it was gonna be a dream, really.
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What they're trying to do is assess,
is this person at risk?
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Has the person gone missing before?
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Have they been the victim
of any violence or any threats?
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The crime scene
will unlock the case.
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We can see that the individual
was definitely prepared,
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or had some understanding
about body disposal.
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The problem with the offenders is
they get to know the system.
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They get to understand
forensic evidence,
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how the police work.
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It's really important to act fast
right from the start.
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Science speaks the truth.
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If the evidence is there,
it's there.
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We will find it.
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Very emotional.
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The hardest day in my life.
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My uncle phoned me to say that,
have I seen Lesley and the kids?
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Ancl I said, "No. Why?"
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"Because she's gone missing."
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I said to him, "|'m going
to phone the police in Cornwall."
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Lesley Ford
and four of her children,
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Sarah Jane, Anne Marie,
Steven and Craig
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haven't been seen or heard from
for several days.
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When police take report
of a missing person,
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they have to assess the risk,
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and they'll do that by ranking it
as either low, medium or high risk.
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Police have to consider
the various different scenarios.
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One was that Lesley was well
somewhere
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and she had taken her
and her children there voluntary.
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Another that harm had come to them.
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There's a lot of work
that's clone behind the scene
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to try and identify
where they have gone.
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Also from a forensic perspective,
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if they are not known
on fingerprints and DNA
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and not known on any databases,
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it's important for us
to get samples.
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If the worst-case scenario,
they are found dead and decomposed,
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then we're able to identify
through fingerprints and DNA.
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It's really important to act fast
right from the start
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because there may be
crucial evidence
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that will get lost really quickly.
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What they're trying to do is assess,
is this person at risk?
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They'll be looking at things like,
has the person gone missing before?
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What are the circumstances
of the relationship they were in?
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Have they been a victim
of any violence or any threats?
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Mum-of-six Lesley Ford
lives with her second husband, Lee,
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in the quiet hamlet of Carnkie.
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She wanted a football team,
I think, of kids.
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We always thought
that she was gonna beat my gran.
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My gran actually had 19 children,
so it was a big family.
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She was a great mum.
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She used to make it fun all the time
with her kids.
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She loved her kids to bits.
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Lee seemed quite gentle,
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and they seemed to have fun
with him.
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They would be in the garden
playing basketball,
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and they'd be laughing and joking.
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Normal procedure would be,
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the uniform officers would go
to Lesley's home address.
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They would need to investigate that.
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They would need to understand,
particularly from Lee,
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well, where is Lesley?
Is she missing? Where is she?
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If you know where she is,
when did you last see her, etc?
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Officers find Lee
and the two youngest children
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at the family home.
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When the police officers
attend a scene,
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they tend to get a bit of a feel
about what might
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or might not have happened there.
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Was there signs of a disturbance?
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Was there signs of items that
probably are in the wrong place?
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So, for example,
a kitchen knife is in the bedroom.
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Sometimes, scenes are cleaned up,
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and therefore, there's very little
forensic evidence there
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to be able to link a crime.
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There was nothing within the house
to raise the suspicions
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that any harm had come
to the family.
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Police asked Lee where his wife
and four older children are.
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Lee Ford gave them a story that
he and Lesley had had an argument
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and she'd left.
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Lee tells police the couple
had a fight about money.
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He'd said that she went off
in a posh car
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with a guy, with the four kids.
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He claims Lesley left
around a month ago,
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and he hasn't heard from her
or the children since.
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Ancl it seemed
quite a plausible story.
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He took schoolbooks for the children
back to the school,
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saying that they weren't
coming back.
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He gave some Christmas presents
to a neighbour
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to look after,
just in case the children came back.
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But the team needs evidence
the family are alive and well.
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Quite often
on a missing person inquiry,
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they“ use “cancer! search officers
to search areas
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where the victim was last seen.
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They'll search large areas
looking for clues.
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Police will now be looking
for what we call "signs of life".
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Proof that they're still alive,
that they're still well.
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When were they last seen?
Who saw them?
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They would be looking for
cash withdrawals from Lesley.
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Has she been using her bank cards?
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Were her or Sarah Jane using
their mobile phones?
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Ancl the family were last seen alive
on the 31st of August.
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The day before,
a friend sent a text message
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to 17-year-old Sarah Jane.
She never replied.
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Fears for the family grow.
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I knew that something horrible
had happened,
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and I was just hoping
it was gonna be a dream, really.
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There was no sign of life.
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This is the kind of thing
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that would really, really raise
the concerns of the police.
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The police would now be starting
to wonder whether this was actually
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a murder investigation.
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What they then have to do
is look at, well,
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if that's the case, who is it
most likely to have harmed them?
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There's a saying
in murder investigations,
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"To understand how somebody died,
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"you have to understand
how they lived."
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Ancl that's because in most murders,
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there's a link between the suspect
and the victim.
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In my heart,
I knew what had happened,
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cos she wouldn't have
left them two kids.
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'Lee Ford was
their number one suspect.'
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NARRATOR: Police in Cornwall fear
a missing family has come to harm.
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They can find no proof of life
for Lesley Ford
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and her four teenage children -
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Sarah Jane, Anne Marie,
Steven and Craig Tranter.
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REPORTER: 'Officers had been alerted
by Mrs Ford's concerned brother.
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'She was last seen in August,
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'and her children hadn't
attended school at all this term.'
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Lesley's husband, Lee,
has told police
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that she's left him for another man,
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but they have serious doubts
about his account.
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Statistics show
that in over half of cases,
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the suspect is likely
to be a partner
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or ex-partner of the victim.
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The information they got
from Lesley's brother -
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the relationship was violent.
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This is the kind of thing
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that would really, really raise
the concerns of the police.
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Recently divorced
and already a mother of four,
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Lesley met her second husband, Lee,
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in their hometown of Telford
in 1990.
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He used to actually be
quite pleasant and smarmy,
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I suppose, in some ways,
acting normal.
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The relationship moves quickly.
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The couple soon welcome
two more children into the family,
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but relatives become
increasingly concerned.
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After a while,
the dynamics of their relationship
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started to change, and Lee started
to become controlling.
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He would decide what
she was wearing, who she could see.
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She wasn't allowed to come
and stay with the kids on their own,
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or if she did, it would only be
a couple of other kids, if anything,
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but there would always be
some left with Lee.
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So it's a control thing again.
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It was a bargaining point
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to make sure that Lesley
now would go back.
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Lesley's ex-husband, Michael,
tells police he's found it
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increasingly difficult to see
his children since she married Lee.
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I was going round
to pick up the children.
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It didn't take long before
he would come on the scene, saying,
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they're not ready,
they're not dressed,
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come back in an hour.
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Ancl then I was told that,
no, they don't want to see me.
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I asked to speak to Lesley,
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and I was told that
she didn't wanna speak to me.
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I just thought that he didn't
like me being on the scene,
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knowing I was the father
of the children.
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The kind of behaviour
that you would typically see
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within that kind of relationship,
where it is coercive control.
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That controlling behaviour
started to escalate,
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and Lee Ford started
to become violent towards Lesley.
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The kids were really scared of him.
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I think she was scared of him. Yeah.
Yeah, she was very scared of him.
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Domestic violence is a heinous crime
and is a red flag to the police.
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Based on Lee's violent history,
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police are convinced
that Lesley and the children
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haven't left the family home
unharmed.
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When there's been a suggestion
by the victim of separation
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or a trial separation,
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that produces an intense fear
of abandonment and loss,
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and a way to manage
that intense anger
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and those intense feelings of fear
is to, in a way,
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to prevent the separation,
is to take the life of the partner.
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Lesley has tried
to leave Lee before.
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Being in a coercive
controlling relationship
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it's often very difficult
to get out of.
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But Lesley took the brave step,
and she did.
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She took the children and she left.
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Lesley did a runner
with the children down to Cornwall.
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Ancl she moved into a caravan.
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But Ford is determined
to find the family.
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He used a very manipulative way
of doing this -
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phoning Lesley's mum.
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He rang up posing as a solicitor,
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saying that he needs to know
where Lesley and the children are,
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making sure they're safe and well,
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and they need to come round
and do a safe check.
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That's how he found her.
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And he moved to Cornwall.
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She just let him back in.
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I suppose because they've made you
feel that you're not worth anything
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and no-one would ever want you.
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After tracking them down,
Lee Ford moves the family
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to the remote village of Carnkie,
and tightens his grip over them.
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Essentially,
they were living in a hamlet.
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Ancl if we're talking about
a controlling relationship,
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where Lee didn't want her to have
access to friends and family, etc,
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what better way
of controlling Lesley
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than moving her down to somewhere
that they're gonna be isolated?
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Where it's just him and her
and the children,
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and he could have
complete control over them.
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Lesley's personality did change,
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but she acted
like things were normal as well.
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I suppose that's what they...
people do in front of people.
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If there's a history
of domestic abuse,
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often there's a social withdrawal
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from their social activities
and friendships.
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There were no shops nearby.
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The children had to travel in a car
with Lee Ford to get to school.
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All of this really, really added
to Lee Ford's control over them.
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Lesley's brother tells police
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that a couple of weeks
before the family went missing,
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she contacted him, distraught.
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I had a phone call from Lesley
saying that she thought
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that Anne Marie ancl Sarah Jane
was being sexually abused by Lee.
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Peter, my ex-brother-in-law,
rang up and said Lesley's found him
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in my daughter's bedroom.
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Peter pleads with Lesley to take
the children to a women's refuge.
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That was my last words to her.
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Officers returned to the family home
to confront Lee about the abuse,
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and again ask if he knows
the family's whereabouts.
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But he and the two younger children
have vanished.
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This is now a manhunt.
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They now have to find this person
as a matter of urgency.
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They'll be looking
for any intelligence
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that would indicate
where he may have gone to.
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Fearful for
the younger children's safety,
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the team releases a statement
to the media.
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By using a press conference
that may prompt him
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to act in ways that may benefit
the investigation.
243
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,655
If harm had come to Lesley
and the children,
244
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,975
could he try and dispose
of any evidence?
245
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:51,575
The team receives intelligence
that Ford is 285 miles away.
246
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,455
The police discovered that Lee Ford
had travelled to Telford
247
00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,295
with his two biological kids
248
00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,055
to leave them
at their grandparents' house.
249
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:04,815
Ford is next sighted
at Lesley's parents' address.
250
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,255
He actually took everything
round to my parents,
251
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,735
all their bits and pieces.
252
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,535
My mum, I actually don't even know
what was in the bags,
253
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:15,135
she put it straight up in the attic.
254
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,215
Ancl he said, "Give this all
to your daughter when you see her."
255
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,415
Offenders get to know the system.
256
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,255
They get to understand
forensic evidence,
257
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:26,775
how the police work.
258
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,135
So an offender is unlikely
to store bloodstained clothing,
259
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,855
a machete or any other weapon
at his home address.
260
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,815
No-one has seen Lee since.
261
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,495
As a team of licenced
search officers travel to Telford,
262
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:46,615
police traffic squads across
the country are put on red alert.
263
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,295
The Police National Computer,
so PNC,
264
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,415
it's able for a police force
to put markers on there to say,
265
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,455
"This vehicle needs to be stopped
as soon as possible."
266
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,415
The team get a hit.
267
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,975
The vehicle is heading back
towards Cornwall.
268
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:07,215
The police set up a road trap
on Bodmin Moor.
269
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:10,215
And that's where he was stopped.
270
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,615
REPORTER: 'Detectives had
been quizzing Lee Ford
271
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,215
'at this police station,
272
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,255
'looking for clues
as to what happened to the young mum
273
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,055
'and her teenage children.'
274
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:30,495
Because he was arrested,
275
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,135
police were able to take his DNA
and fingerprints.
276
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,655
Specialist police interviewers
prepare to grill Lee
277
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,575
about the whereabouts of Lesley
and the four older children.
278
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,815
But before they get the chance,
he changes his story.
279
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,215
He just admitted
that he'd killed all five.
280
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,975
The police actually told us
he confessed in the cell
281
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,495
with his solicitors present.
282
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,215
Familicide is the killing
of three or more family members
283
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,615
by somebody, is relatively rare.
284
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,295
The risk is one in 10 million.
285
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,735
Killing the children
as well as the partner
286
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,975
is actually really, really unusual.
287
00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,295
Lee directs officers to look
in the garden of the family home.
288
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,615
The scene is secured,
and CSI is called in.
289
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,535
When the police officers
do a house search,
290
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,135
they will always search the house,
any vehicles, and also the garden,
291
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,175
looking for anything that might
lead to the disappearance.
292
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,335
Obviously, if there was an area
in the garden
293
00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:45,575
that had been freshly dug,
294
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,135
then that would be highlighted
to the crime scene manager.
295
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,695
But in this case,
there was no obvious area
296
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,695
where it appeared
that a body had been buried.
297
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:58,055
The best plan, really,
is to get all your specialists there
298
00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:59,815
at the scene, to a briefing,
299
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,135
to decide what you're gonna do
and how you're going to do it.
300
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,815
I would absolutely ensure
that I had a forensic archaeologist
301
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,095
at the scene to effectively recover
and find the bodies.
302
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,455
I had a phone call to say
that the forensic teams
303
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,055
were gonna go into the house.
304
00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,695
There was a very strong smell
coming from the garden,
305
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,055
and in particular, the woodshed,
306
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,015
which was down the bottom
of the garden.
307
00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,175
The smell of decomposition
is unmistakable.
308
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:34,935
It's a smell
that will stay with you for life.
309
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,135
From a forensic perspective,
310
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,375
it's clear that something
is dead out there.
311
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:48,455
When a body is decomposing,
312
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,255
it emits something called
volatile chemicals or VOCs.
313
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,535
The bacteria that naturally live
in our gut
314
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,735
no longer have an immune system
to keep them in check,
315
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:03,495
and they start to overproduce,
and they emit smells.
316
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,855
A forensic strategy
has to be written.
317
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,135
A senior investigating officer
will need to know,
318
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:09,495
what am I dealing with?
319
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,735
There needs to be a systematic,
slow examination of the woodshed.
320
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,135
They were able to find items
that are wrapped in material
321
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,255
which look like potential bodies.
322
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,095
They told us that they'd found
the first body,
323
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:27,535
and we just watched it,
actually, on TV, really.
324
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,095
The bits and pieces just kept...
on the news, really,
325
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:33,615
waiting for more.
326
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,375
Then they found
the three bodies there.
327
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,295
The team are in no doubt
the remains are human.
328
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,135
The human skeletal form
is quite unique.
329
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:53,375
Our hands, our feet,
our skull are completely different
330
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,375
from any other members
of the animal kingdom.
331
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,895
These morphological differences
between humans and animals
332
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,455
are some of the first things
we look for when we go to a scene.
333
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,975
We can see that the individual
had some understanding
334
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,895
about body disposal,
because they weren't dumped,
335
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:13,655
they weren't left exposed,
336
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,055
which would possibly indicate
a rush or a hurry.
337
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,935
This individual took their time,
338
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:24,095
was very careful and very thoughtful
about the choices that they made.
339
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:31,175
The bodies were clearly prepared
and placed there
340
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:32,855
with a sense of purpose.
341
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,015
The identities of the bodies
are concealed.
342
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,215
The remains are sent to the mortuary
for formal identification,
343
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,095
still wrapped in the bed sheets,
to preserve evidence.
344
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:45,775
The police are investigating
five missing people.
345
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,375
There are only three
in this woodshed.
346
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,775
What they need to do now is
find out, where are the other two?
347
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:54,935
Science speaks the truth.
348
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,655
If the evidence is there,
we will find it.
349
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,135
NARRATOR: Lee Ford has
confessed to killing
350
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,375
his wife and four stepchildren.
351
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,895
In the family garden,
CSls have made a grisly discovery.
352
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,575
Three bodies wrapped in bed sheets
buried under a woodshed.
353
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:24,775
But with five people missing,
354
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,695
police need Ford to tell them
where he's put the other two bodies.
355
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,375
He says two officers that initially
came round in relation
356
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,135
to the missing person report
spooked him,
357
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,815
and he felt that he now needed
to move the bodies
358
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,735
before police come back
and did a proper search.
359
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,015
He says he drove the two bodies
about five miles...
360
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:01,095
...to a potato field.
361
00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:06,735
Where he dug a shallow grave.
362
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,375
Police cordon off the field.
363
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,655
An outdoor scene in a field
is very difficult scene to examine.
364
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:21,175
You've got the weather conditions,
you've got inclement rain,
365
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,855
potential farmers that have used
the field for growing crops.
366
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,055
When the police have
to search large areas
367
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,375
for potential human remains,
368
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,375
it's a very useful tool
to be able to use a sniffer dog.
369
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,015
So, there are clogs within the police
370
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,855
that are trained
on different aspects.
371
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,135
Some are trained to do drug searches
and search for money,
372
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,215
but there are also clogs that are
trained to search for cadavers.
373
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:54,575
These clogs are invaluable
to identifying particular areas,
374
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,975
to be able to reduce the search area
375
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,855
for the licenced search officers
and the CSls
376
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,055
to then concentrate their efforts
on a particular area.
377
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,215
If a body is left exposed
and outdoors,
378
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,055
you might smell it
once you get quite close to it.
379
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,055
But if you're far away, you probably
wouldn't notice anything.
380
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,175
The cadaver dog definitely would
be able to smell it.
381
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,935
A possible burial site is
identified, and excavation begins.
382
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,695
Two additional bodies
were recovered.
383
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,215
These were young teenage girls.
384
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,615
Cos girls actually develop
quite a bit faster than boys,
385
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,335
they would have already started
to look like women,
386
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:38,655
like have a female shape
to the skeleton.
387
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,735
So even upon initial inspection,
388
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,935
we would be able to say
that these were young women.
389
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:48,415
Police suspect these are the bodies
of 17-year-old Sarah Jane
390
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:49,895
and 15-year-old Anne Marie.
391
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:56,255
There was nothing in my mind
that it wasn't them at all.
392
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,655
All right, I suppose in some ways,
in your heart, you wish it wasn't,
393
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:05,295
but it was definitely
gonna to be them.
394
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,775
Despite Ford's confession,
395
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,815
the team needs to formally
identify the bodies.
396
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,535
At the mortuary, the pathologist
begins by carefully unwrapping
397
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,855
the three bodies
found beneath the woodshed.
398
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,335
One of the key things would be
to help identify
399
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,455
some features of these individuals.
So, how old they were
400
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,895
and whether they were likely
to be male or female.
401
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:34,295
An anthropologist is able to
age people via bones and skeletons.
402
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,975
It was an adult female
and two teenage males.
403
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,895
The adult skeleton is fully formed,
it has finished growing,
404
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,615
whereas a child's skeleton
is still in the process
405
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,095
of growing and developing.
406
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:50,855
So the bones aren't adult-size,
they are smaller.
407
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,375
The ends of the bones
haven't fully developed,
408
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,455
and attach themselves
to the main part of the bone.
409
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,015
Also, the two younger individuals,
410
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,855
they probably hadn't
hit their growth spurt yet,
411
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,175
so they would have been quite small,
relative to the adult skeleton.
412
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,935
The bodies under the woodshed
are believed to be Lesley
413
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:14,175
and her two sons, Steven and Craig.
414
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,695
They had the same degree
of decomposition,
415
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,695
which intimates
that they were probably killed
416
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,055
around the same time.
417
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,055
It wasn't possible
to do facial recognition
418
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,575
or identify them on fingerprints.
419
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,775
In this case, there was another way
of identifying the remains,
420
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,455
and that was by dental records.
421
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,055
So at the postmortem,
422
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,815
where forensic odontologists
would be brought in.
423
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,655
The odontology is fast-tracked.
424
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,455
The DNA from the teeth
matched the dental records
425
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,055
of Lesley, Anne Marie,
Sarah Jane, Steven and Craig.
426
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,855
You've seen someone's being murdered
or something like that,
427
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,815
before this happened to me,
428
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,055
and you think,
"God, how would I feel?"
429
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,255
But I know how they feel now.
430
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,855
I know how they felt at that time.
431
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,135
Ancl it's very hard and not nice.
432
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,135
It's not nice at all.
433
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,415
In some ways, you were hoping
that they were gonna walk through
434
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,535
the door and it is a big dream.
435
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,775
Erm, very emotional.
436
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,895
The hardest clay of my life.
437
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,055
I worked in an army depot,
and on the bus was Lesley.
438
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,415
She used to work in the care home.
439
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,415
I was on the same bus every clay,
440
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,135
and we soon started saying hello
to each other, "Good morning."
441
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,495
Ancl then it developed from there.
442
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,335
We got together.
443
00:26:57,360 --> 00:26:58,935
Ancl it was lovely.
444
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,615
She was a bubbly person,
always laughing.
445
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,975
She was always smiling. Funny girl.
446
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,695
Lesley gave birth in 1983
to Sarah Jane.
447
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,735
Beautiful little girl. Erm...
448
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,695
Absolutely changed us as a person.
449
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,615
Sarah Jane was definitely
a mummy's girl.
450
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:33,695
Although she was fine with both
of us, she was always Mummy first.
451
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,855
We had Anne Marie.
452
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,815
She was born a year later.
453
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,335
She was very clingy to me.
454
00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:44,735
If I went out of the room,
whichever room I was in,
455
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,935
she'd be there with me.
456
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,695
She'd just follow me around.
457
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,055
And then we had Steven Paul.
458
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,455
He was a happy little boy,
kicking a football around,
459
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:57,855
even at an early age.
460
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,495
We planned on having the children
all together
461
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,095
so they could grow up together.
462
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,815
And we decided
that we'd have another one,
463
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,815
which was Craig Jonathan.
He was born a-year-and-a-half later.
464
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,575
Ancl again, that made our family.
It was beautiful.
465
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,855
In custody, police ask Lee Ford
how he killed his family.
466
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:36,015
On a police interview, he admitted
to arguing with his wife, Lesley,
467
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,655
about money, and beating her
around the head with a rounders bat.
468
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:46,135
Then he went to the garage
and came across some rope.
469
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,175
His account is that he just flipped
and saw the rope,
470
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:53,695
and then decided to go back...
471
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,335
...to attack Lesley.
472
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,455
Ford tells officers
that over 24 hours,
473
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,775
he strangled his stepchildren
in the kitchen.
474
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,455
It appears that he's targeted
the children one by one,
475
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,015
and called them into the kitchen,
476
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,695
and grabbed them from behind
and strangled them.
477
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,775
His version of events to the police
478
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,935
is the fact that they wouldn't
have known anything
479
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,295
because he jumped them from behind.
480
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,935
This is such a heinous crime.
481
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:42,695
As a homicide detective,
482
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,535
dealing with child murders
was always the hardest for me.
483
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,095
Something that you could never
really get used to.
484
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,935
It was always hard,
maybe being a parent.
485
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,815
So looking at this crime,
looking at four children
486
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:58,975
and how they died
in those circumstances,
487
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,095
for me, is harrowing.
488
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,855
Sometimes, stepchildren
are more likely to be killed
489
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,295
in those cases
because the stepchildren are seen
490
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,495
as an extension of their partner.
491
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,095
Ancl so in order
to really hurt the partner,
492
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,535
they will kill her children as well.
493
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:35,255
Lee is charged with five counts
of murder, but he pleads not guilty.
494
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:43,615
He pleaded not guilty
on a sanity case, that he flipped.
495
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,255
But most people, actually,
who flip and kill their family
496
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,975
kill theirs elves as well.
497
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,935
Ancl why would they keep two kids
alive and not kill all of them?
498
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,455
So, he was just hoping
to get away with it
499
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,375
so he didn't go to prison,
I suppose.
500
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,215
He didn't think of the step kids
like his own kids
501
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,775
because he would have actually
killed his own kids as well.
502
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,575
He had no feelings for the kids,
considering, actually,
503
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,015
he'd brought them up for 11 years
504
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,695
and they've been in his life
for 11 years.
505
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,135
There was no love
or anything in there at all.
506
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,895
Lee refuses psychiatric assessment.
507
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,495
Police have to prove
how it happened.
508
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,935
What were the circumstances?
509
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,335
Even though Lee Ford had confessed
to killing Lesley and the children,
510
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,575
that doesn't really
alter the process
511
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,255
that the police have to go through.
512
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,455
Because they still need
to prove the case against him.
513
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,055
For instance, he could go to court
and he could say,
514
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,575
"Actually, that confession
was given under duress,"
515
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,615
or he could change his mind.
516
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,255
Police have to carry on
as if he hasn't said anything.
517
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,135
Even if someone confesses
to a crime,
518
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,575
it's still important for us
to forensically prove that,
519
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,855
because someone may
change their mind in court.
520
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,535
Ancl if the police
haven't examined everything
521
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,415
and provided a watertight case,
the case could fall down.
522
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,295
Police turn to the science.
523
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,535
At the potato field,
CSls recover potential evidence.
524
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,175
You want to try and put the vehicle
of the offender there,
525
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,215
because it's impossible
to carry dead bodies very far.
526
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,295
Close to the body,
there were some tyre track marks
527
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,375
which may or may not have been
linked to an offender's vehicle.
528
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,575
Obviously,
at the time of any investigation,
529
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,135
you're not sure what evidence
is relevant and what isn't relevant.
530
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,455
These tyre track marks would've
been photographed by a CSI.
531
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,095
They would've been photographed
532
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,135
with a camera on a tripod
using a scale,
533
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,295
being able to photograph
the full length
534
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:46,775
of the tyre track mark.
535
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,135
After it's been photographed,
536
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,495
they will cast them
with casting material,
537
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,335
which is a little bit
like plaster of Paris.
538
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,295
The casting material is mixed up
at the scene.
539
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,415
Ancl then it's poured very carefully
into the tyre track.
540
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,215
This actually takes an impression
of the tyre track mark.
541
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,175
Which can then be examined
by forensic scientists,
542
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,615
and be compared to tyres
543
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,615
that may or may not have
made that impression.
544
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,855
The tyre tracks are sent
for comparison with Lee's car,
545
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,135
as CSls recover
another possible trace.
546
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,375
They find a face mask that has
obviously been dropped in the field.
547
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,415
DNA testing on this face mask
548
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,895
confirmed that this was
the offender's DNA.
549
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,535
This almost shows some preplanning.
550
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,095
That he's worn a face mask
when he's transported the bodies,
551
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,375
because the bodies were
starting to decompose,
552
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,735
and therefore
the smell was very strong.
553
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,015
This shows some preplanning.
554
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,095
In Telford,
search officers investigate
555
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,335
the belongings he dropped off.
556
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,215
The items that he dropped off
at the grandparents' house
557
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,175
included some bed linen.
558
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,175
An examination of these sheets
559
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,655
indicated that there was blood
on these sheets.
560
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,615
There was quite a large amount
of blood distribution,
561
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:28,935
which fit with a medium impact
velocity spatter pattern.
562
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:30,535
When blood is found on an item,
563
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,055
it's normally tested
to confirm that it's blood,
564
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,575
and the police normally use
a KM test, a Kastle-Meyer test,
565
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,615
which is a simple colour change test
to confirm if it's blood or not.
566
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,655
The blood is DNA-tested.
567
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:49,855
Ancl it was confirmed
by the forensic lab
568
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,095
that the blood on these sheets
had come from Lesley.
569
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,095
This fits with the story
that he had attacked Lesley
570
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,055
with a rounders bat, while she was
lying on the bed, potentially.
571
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,775
Lee has hidden evidence of
his violent crimes 285 miles away.
572
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,255
Together, the evidence is mounting
that this was premeditated murder.
573
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,695
The police reckoned he knew
how to cover up what he'd clone.
574
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:24,335
In this case, there was a reason
575
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,575
for why the bodies were in quite
an advanced stage of decomposition.
576
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,815
The killer had actually covered
the bodies in calcium hydroxide,
577
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:33,455
which is lime,
578
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,695
which would speed up
the decomposition of the flesh.
579
00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:41,935
The fact that he put lime
onto these bodies
580
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,055
could suggest
that he was forensically aware.
581
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,175
He knew what to do,
if the situation presented itself.
582
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,855
This is clearly
a premeditated attack.
583
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,615
Someone that knows
what they're doing,
584
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,255
someone that's thought out
how they're going to do it,
585
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,535
and what they're going to do
with the bodies.
586
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,855
One of the things that's
so kind of chilling about familicide
587
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:11,135
is that we often think about family
as the safe haven
588
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,415
from all that's bad
in the outer world.
589
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,615
It's the place
where we feel protected,
590
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,135
and particularly the role of fathers
in terms of...
591
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,575
traditionally seen
as the head of the household,
592
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,935
they often take on that role
of protector of the family.
593
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,295
So when they enact
something like this
594
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,095
and enact the most extreme form
of violence on their family,
595
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:32,735
it's absolutely chilling.
596
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:45,735
NARRATOR: Lee Ford has confessed
597
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,215
to killing his wife
and four stepchildren.
598
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:51,175
He claims he wasn't of sound mind
at the time,
599
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,375
but police have unearthed evidence
600
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,215
that suggests he knew
exactly what he was doing.
601
00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:00,055
Killing five people
in an identical way
602
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,935
was a very planned
and premeditated attack.
603
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,055
Forensic experts have found
that the bodies were covered
604
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,895
in calcium hydroxide
to speed up decomposition.
605
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,855
Lee Ford used polythene bags
to move the two bodies,
606
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,855
and for very good reason.
607
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,055
Because of the state
of decomposition
608
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:24,455
that the two bodies were in,
609
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,415
the smell would have been
overwhelming.
610
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,935
It's no surprise
that Lee Ford used a face mask
611
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:31,495
in order to carry that out.
612
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,095
He's left behind tell-tale signs.
613
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,535
In about a third of cases
of familicide,
614
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,415
substance use does play a role
in terms of intoxication
615
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,055
at the time of the deaths,
616
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,215
whether through alcohol use
or through substances.
617
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:54,295
So it might be that those substances
have created a kind of distortion
618
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,295
in the perpetrator's thinking.
619
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,895
However, in, actually,
the majority of cases,
620
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,095
there isn't any signs
of intoxication.
621
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,215
Ancl actually, perpetrators
in the main are very lucid
622
00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:06,575
when they enact a familicide.
623
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,535
Although the offender has admitted
to quite a lot of this crime,
624
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,095
it's really important
to have the forensic evidence
625
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,455
to back up not only his story,
626
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,935
but also to boost
the police prosecution case.
627
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:24,215
It's down to the police
to prove what has actually happened.
628
00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:27,535
So forensic evidence can be
vitally important in a court of law.
629
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,895
Faced with the evidence
of his cover-up,
630
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,175
Lee Ford changes his plea to guilty.
631
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,335
You feel relieved in some ways,
632
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,575
but you don't in another
because you don't know why.
633
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,255
Cos he doesn't have to say
why he did it.
634
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:49,855
So, you know, it's there
all these years, 23 years later.
635
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,095
Lee insists
he doesn't know why he did it.
636
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,135
But Lesley and the children's
families have their own theory
637
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:57,495
about Ford's motive.
638
00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,895
He killed Lesley and the kids
639
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:03,455
cos if there was something going on
between him and Sarah Jane,
640
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,855
there's no evidence there,
I suppose.
641
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,095
I think he was hoping
all the way through
642
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:10,855
that he weren't gonna
lose his children -
643
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,095
the two remaining kids.
644
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,135
Not long before their deaths,
Lesley sought advice
645
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:21,135
from a solicitor about getting
full custody of all six children.
646
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,455
If a separation has been
instigated by the partner,
647
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,895
that feeling of loss
can sometimes produce
648
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,775
a sense of rage and hostility,
649
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,095
and one of the ways
of dealing with that feeling
650
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,695
of loss and hostility is to enact
the most severe form of violence.
651
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:44,855
The family are laid to rest
in their hometown of Telford.
652
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,335
At the funeral, I was really numb.
653
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,375
It was only two miles away
from where me and Lesley lived
654
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,055
before we had the children.
655
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,415
Very emotional clay, obviously.
656
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:00,975
It was so hard.
657
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,135
The morning was so hard
because, obviously,
658
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,815
my front garden was covered
in flowers, wreaths.
659
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:16,415
Ford is given five life sentences
660
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,895
and must serve a minimum term
of 27 years.
661
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:23,975
He's taken five lives.
662
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,015
To be honest, I feel as though
he's taken more than that,
663
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,655
because he's taken mine,
and my family suffer,
664
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,535
and, obviously,
Lesley's family suffered.
665
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:40,295
How he's only been given 27 years
is beyond me.
666
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,135
It really is.
667
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,935
Feel as though I've got
the sentence. Not him.
668
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,415
So, yeah.
669
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,615
The anger's still there,
it really is.
670
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,255
The tariff would have been better
671
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,775
if he was never gonna ever see
the light of clay again,
672
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,575
that he was gonna
stay in prison until he dies.
673
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,215
Friends of Sarah Jane's
and Anne Marie's, erm,
674
00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:21,735
set up this petition.
675
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,095
In 2027, he can put in for parole.
676
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,615
So, hopefully,
if we had the petition, actually,
677
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,095
and we can get the votes
and get into Parliament,
678
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,855
then perhaps we might be able
to stop him from being allowed
679
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,895
to put in for parole, and hopefully,
he will stay there then,
680
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,295
in prison until he dies.
681
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,215
It would be the little piece,
for me,
682
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:52,375
to say,
"Right, he's where he should be."
683
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,935
He should never come out.
684
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:57,655
He should stay where he is.
685
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,575
Ancl that's also because,
if he does come out,
686
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,255
what's he gonna do
when he does come out?
687
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,455
Is he gonna do it to anybody else?
688
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,815
Because of what my family
has gone through,
689
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,535
what my children, obviously,
have been through,
690
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,735
it's for... it's for all five.
691
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:16,735
I want justice for them.
692
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:27,375
Missing family is probably
the worst thing.
693
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,895
Ancl missing Lesley being there -
694
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:32,735
a phone call away.
695
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,295
Very hard.
696
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:38,655
Very hard.
697
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,655
I can imagine her now with all her
grandchildren running around her.
698
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:48,135
She would have been a great gran.
699
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,455
They're buried together.
700
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,815
I do go up there regular.
701
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,695
Ancl I can sit up there
for up to two hours talking.
702
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,255
Very hard, but very...
703
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:11,735
It helps me.
704
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,815
The children and Lesley, erm...
705
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,255
...are with me every clay.
706
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,655
You never lose their memories.
Never.