1 00:00:00,592 --> 00:00:03,342 (waves crashing) 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,783 (tense music) 3 00:00:23,700 --> 00:00:26,543 Narrator: What happens in the mind of con artists? 4 00:00:28,060 --> 00:00:30,930 What makes their brain so well-equipped 5 00:00:30,930 --> 00:00:32,583 for psychological trickery? 6 00:00:34,850 --> 00:00:35,763 Is it greed? 7 00:00:37,150 --> 00:00:38,253 A lack of empathy? 8 00:00:39,490 --> 00:00:40,503 Loose morals? 9 00:00:43,330 --> 00:00:47,871 Whatever it is, we are fascinated by con artists. 10 00:00:47,871 --> 00:00:50,454 (tense music) 11 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:09,850 News Reporter: American Matthew Cox was arrested 12 00:01:09,850 --> 00:01:12,690 and charged for bank fraud, identity theft, 13 00:01:12,690 --> 00:01:15,943 passport fraud, mortgage fraud, and probation violation. 14 00:01:17,710 --> 00:01:19,790 Journalist: Matthew Cox created fake companies, 15 00:01:19,790 --> 00:01:22,360 fake identities with fake Social Security numbers 16 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,140 through which he started signing up for credit cards. 17 00:01:25,140 --> 00:01:27,640 Narrator: Cox even invented his own banks, 18 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,260 The Bank of Ebor, the Southern Exchange Bank of Clarksville. 19 00:01:31,260 --> 00:01:33,170 This all helped him to make millions 20 00:01:33,170 --> 00:01:34,170 in the real estate market. 21 00:01:34,170 --> 00:01:36,250 News Reporter: Cox is accomplices were mainly women 22 00:01:36,250 --> 00:01:39,890 who helped him run real estate scams in various states. 23 00:01:39,890 --> 00:01:41,630 Narrator: Cox even used plastic surgery 24 00:01:41,630 --> 00:01:43,500 to alter his appearance. 25 00:01:43,500 --> 00:01:45,960 But it all ended when the Secret Service arrested him 26 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:48,293 and he was sentenced to 26 years in prison. 27 00:01:49,646 --> 00:01:52,229 (tense music) 28 00:02:16,980 --> 00:02:18,843 We've all been lied to. 29 00:02:20,090 --> 00:02:22,190 We've all been offered something 30 00:02:22,190 --> 00:02:25,050 that is just too good to be true, 31 00:02:25,050 --> 00:02:28,170 and still, we fell for it. 32 00:02:28,170 --> 00:02:30,180 Although we love a good con, 33 00:02:30,180 --> 00:02:32,663 we hate it when it happens to us. 34 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:36,740 To find out how to resist the manipulation, 35 00:02:36,740 --> 00:02:39,540 we invited some of the greatest con artists 36 00:02:39,540 --> 00:02:41,300 to our institute. 37 00:02:41,300 --> 00:02:43,430 Together with a team of experts, 38 00:02:43,430 --> 00:02:47,140 we are going to analyze their stories, pick their brains, 39 00:02:47,140 --> 00:02:50,003 and reveal what their body language tells us. 40 00:02:51,250 --> 00:02:53,293 Welcome to the Institute. 41 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:55,773 -: Hello, Mr. Cox. -: Hello. 42 00:02:56,690 --> 00:02:58,420 -: How are you doing? -: Fine. 43 00:02:58,420 --> 00:03:00,021 -: Shall we? -: Sure. 44 00:03:00,021 --> 00:03:02,604 (tense music) 45 00:03:07,387 --> 00:03:10,930 -: Hello, Matthew, welcome. 46 00:03:10,930 --> 00:03:13,260 We're really pleased to have you with us. 47 00:03:13,260 --> 00:03:15,830 So let me start with the introductions. 48 00:03:15,830 --> 00:03:20,120 I'm Kerry Daynes and I'm a Consultant Forensic Psychologist. 49 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:21,880 And here we've got Mark Frank, 50 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,950 and he is a Professor of Behavioral Science. 51 00:03:24,950 --> 00:03:26,870 -: So Matthew, as a behavioral scientist, 52 00:03:26,870 --> 00:03:30,050 I'm going to be interested in your behaviors, 53 00:03:30,050 --> 00:03:33,620 and not just simply on behaviors that you show, 54 00:03:33,620 --> 00:03:37,440 but your ability to recognize behaviors in other people 55 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,060 and how attuned you are to those. 56 00:03:40,060 --> 00:03:42,250 So we'll put you through a variety of tests 57 00:03:42,250 --> 00:03:44,560 to look at things like how well you can judge people, 58 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,870 how well you can judge little things like how they feel, 59 00:03:47,870 --> 00:03:50,770 and using that to try to help us get a better sense 60 00:03:50,770 --> 00:03:53,410 of what's going on inside here 61 00:03:53,410 --> 00:03:56,470 through what is manifested out here. 62 00:03:56,470 --> 00:03:58,420 But as far as going deep inside, 63 00:03:58,420 --> 00:04:01,100 that's where I turn it over to my colleague, Moran Cerf. 64 00:04:01,100 --> 00:04:02,150 -: I'm a Neuroscientist. 65 00:04:02,150 --> 00:04:03,720 I want to understand the psychology. 66 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:05,348 So what I'm gonna do is 67 00:04:05,348 --> 00:04:07,410 I'm going to do interviews with you, 68 00:04:07,410 --> 00:04:09,560 I'm going to play games with you, 69 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,700 and all the while I'm gonna look at your answers 70 00:04:12,700 --> 00:04:14,540 as well as your brain's answers. 71 00:04:14,540 --> 00:04:16,100 Ultimately, what we're gonna do is 72 00:04:16,100 --> 00:04:20,500 we're gonna have you strapped to a machine called EEG. 73 00:04:20,500 --> 00:04:23,640 It's a little swim cap that we put on your head. 74 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:24,970 -: Yeah, that's it, I'm done. 75 00:04:24,970 --> 00:04:26,583 Just get up and leave. (chuckles) 76 00:04:26,583 --> 00:04:27,416 But, fine-- 77 00:04:27,416 --> 00:04:29,625 -: What in your brain makes you say that? 78 00:04:29,625 --> 00:04:32,957 -: It's just my fight or flight response kicked in, 79 00:04:32,957 --> 00:04:35,110 and I thought, "Listen, you need to go. 80 00:04:35,110 --> 00:04:36,720 This isn't what you thought." 81 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:37,943 No, this is, it's fine. 82 00:04:38,860 --> 00:04:43,600 -: So I will be talking to you in depth in a couple of hours, 83 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,490 but for now, make yourself at home. 84 00:04:46,490 --> 00:04:49,010 So settle into the Institute. 85 00:04:49,010 --> 00:04:51,300 Take a little bit of time for rest maybe. 86 00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:53,830 And we'll start a little later on. 87 00:04:53,830 --> 00:04:54,980 -: All right. -: Okay. 88 00:04:54,980 --> 00:04:57,053 -: Cool. -: See you soon. 89 00:04:57,053 --> 00:04:58,403 -: All right, thanks. -: Bye-bye. 90 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,023 (tense music) 91 00:05:23,340 --> 00:05:26,470 Hey, how are you? -: Great. 92 00:05:26,470 --> 00:05:28,310 -: You ready for this? -: Absolutely. 93 00:05:28,310 --> 00:05:29,143 -: Good, good. 94 00:05:29,143 --> 00:05:34,143 I'm interested in your journey to becoming a con-artist. 95 00:05:34,490 --> 00:05:36,380 The development of it. 96 00:05:36,380 --> 00:05:41,380 So you started to create fake identities 97 00:05:41,540 --> 00:05:46,540 from forging documents to actually face-to-face deception. 98 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,150 You would walk into a bank 99 00:05:50,150 --> 00:05:53,760 or you would walk into a Social Security office. 100 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:54,610 Tell me about that. 101 00:05:54,610 --> 00:05:57,350 Tell me about the face-to-face deceptions. 102 00:05:57,350 --> 00:06:00,860 -: Look, what I did initially was call Social Security. 103 00:06:00,860 --> 00:06:02,290 I told him I never had one issued. 104 00:06:02,290 --> 00:06:03,960 They said if you've had a bank account 105 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:04,860 or a driver's license, 106 00:06:04,860 --> 00:06:06,350 you've had you have a Social Security card. 107 00:06:06,350 --> 00:06:07,410 So I hung up. 108 00:06:07,410 --> 00:06:08,243 I called back. 109 00:06:08,243 --> 00:06:10,970 I said, I'm 33-years-old, never had one. 110 00:06:10,970 --> 00:06:12,624 She was like, "That's just not possible." 111 00:06:12,624 --> 00:06:14,180 They're like, "You need to come down here 112 00:06:14,180 --> 00:06:15,230 and talk to somebody. 113 00:06:16,330 --> 00:06:18,090 Bring your birth certificate." 114 00:06:18,090 --> 00:06:19,360 Hang up the phone. 115 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:20,297 And they kept saying, 116 00:06:20,297 --> 00:06:22,697 "If you were born in a hospital, it was issued." 117 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:24,880 So then I was like, "okay." 118 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:26,380 I started thinking about that. 119 00:06:28,070 --> 00:06:29,147 So then I called back and I said, 120 00:06:29,147 --> 00:06:33,500 "Look, I have a son he's three-years-old 121 00:06:33,500 --> 00:06:35,070 and doesn't have a Social Security card. 122 00:06:35,070 --> 00:06:36,850 I need one issued to him." 123 00:06:36,850 --> 00:06:37,997 They said, "Was he born in a hospital?" 124 00:06:37,997 --> 00:06:39,290 "No, he wasn't. 125 00:06:39,290 --> 00:06:40,857 He was born with a midwife." 126 00:06:40,857 --> 00:06:43,657 "Oh, okay, bring him down here." 127 00:06:43,657 --> 00:06:45,210 (scoffs) 128 00:06:45,210 --> 00:06:46,830 I called back. 129 00:06:46,830 --> 00:06:49,880 Then I say my wife left with my son, 130 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:51,350 he's in Brazil right now with her. 131 00:06:51,350 --> 00:06:54,060 This time, the person said, "Oh, that's too bad, 132 00:06:54,060 --> 00:06:58,107 any children over the age of 12-months-old have to show up." 133 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:01,737 So I called back and I said, 134 00:07:01,737 --> 00:07:03,050 "He's 10 months old. 135 00:07:03,050 --> 00:07:05,870 Was born with a midwife. 136 00:07:05,870 --> 00:07:07,900 He's not in the country. 137 00:07:07,900 --> 00:07:09,700 What do I need to get him a Social Security number issued?" 138 00:07:09,700 --> 00:07:11,530 And she said, "I need his birth certificate 139 00:07:11,530 --> 00:07:14,940 and a shot record with his name and date of birth on it." 140 00:07:14,940 --> 00:07:16,410 No problem. 141 00:07:16,410 --> 00:07:18,240 I made it for a girl. 142 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,140 I'd surveyed a woman who was homeless 143 00:07:22,140 --> 00:07:23,990 and her name was Rebecca Hickey. 144 00:07:23,990 --> 00:07:27,250 And I made a birth certificate for a child 145 00:07:27,250 --> 00:07:28,770 that was 10-months-old. 146 00:07:28,770 --> 00:07:29,970 Put it together, walked in. 147 00:07:29,970 --> 00:07:30,870 It was perfect. 148 00:07:30,870 --> 00:07:32,280 Social Security gave it to her. 149 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:33,480 She looked it over. 150 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,630 But as she was talking I remember thinking, 151 00:07:36,657 --> 00:07:38,780 "Rebecca doesn't sound like a baby." 152 00:07:38,780 --> 00:07:41,830 Like the name, Rebecca doesn't sound like a baby. 153 00:07:41,830 --> 00:07:44,840 And I thought, "What's a baby name for Rebecca?" 154 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:46,617 She said, "Where's the mother?" 155 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,740 I'd like to think that she's in a drug rehab somewhere, 156 00:07:51,740 --> 00:07:53,450 but she may be in jail. 157 00:07:53,450 --> 00:07:56,380 All I know is that baby Becca and I haven't seen her 158 00:07:56,380 --> 00:07:57,540 in six months. 159 00:07:57,540 --> 00:07:59,280 And as soon as I said, baby Becca, 160 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,010 I remember thinking, "What did you come up with? 161 00:08:02,010 --> 00:08:02,980 Baby Becca?" 162 00:08:02,980 --> 00:08:05,283 And I started to laugh and I went, 163 00:08:06,772 --> 00:08:08,093 I remember sitting there going, 164 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:10,780 and she thought I was crying. 165 00:08:10,780 --> 00:08:14,490 And I remember telling myself, pull yourself together, bro. 166 00:08:14,490 --> 00:08:15,740 What are you doing? 167 00:08:15,740 --> 00:08:17,550 There's like a sheriff in the back. 168 00:08:17,550 --> 00:08:18,460 It's Social Security. 169 00:08:18,460 --> 00:08:19,510 What are you doing? 170 00:08:19,510 --> 00:08:22,960 And so I remember going, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry." 171 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:24,500 And she goes, "No, no, it's okay, it's okay. 172 00:08:24,500 --> 00:08:25,710 I have to ask." 173 00:08:25,710 --> 00:08:26,700 And I said, "Okay, I'm sorry." 174 00:08:26,700 --> 00:08:28,610 She goes, "It's fine, hold on." 175 00:08:28,610 --> 00:08:30,297 She went on the computer, she looked. 176 00:08:30,297 --> 00:08:31,730 "You're right, she's never had 177 00:08:31,730 --> 00:08:33,290 a Social Security number issued. 178 00:08:33,290 --> 00:08:34,340 Hold on... 179 00:08:35,570 --> 00:08:36,810 Okay, done. 180 00:08:36,810 --> 00:08:38,100 You'll have it in 10 days." 181 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:40,060 She gave me my documents, I left. 182 00:08:40,060 --> 00:08:42,160 10 days later, I got a Social Security number 183 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,320 for a Rebecca Hickey. 184 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,450 I had the real Rebecca Hickey's birth certificate. 185 00:08:47,450 --> 00:08:49,090 So I combine those two together. 186 00:08:49,090 --> 00:08:52,950 I order her certified copy of her high school transcripts, 187 00:08:52,950 --> 00:08:54,630 plus registered a vote in her name. 188 00:08:54,630 --> 00:08:56,300 I get a voter's registration card 189 00:08:56,300 --> 00:09:01,260 and I send my girlfriend into the DMV, driver's license. 190 00:09:01,260 --> 00:09:02,830 -: How did you feel as you walked out 191 00:09:02,830 --> 00:09:04,090 of the Social Security office? 192 00:09:04,090 --> 00:09:05,180 -: Oh I felt great! 193 00:09:05,180 --> 00:09:06,140 It felt great. 194 00:09:06,140 --> 00:09:11,140 Listen, it's like there's no better feeling 195 00:09:11,380 --> 00:09:15,060 in the world than walking into like Bank of America, 196 00:09:15,060 --> 00:09:19,970 handing them a fake W-2, fake canceled checks, 197 00:09:19,970 --> 00:09:21,920 fake driver's license. 198 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:23,810 Have them pull your credit on some guy 199 00:09:23,810 --> 00:09:25,820 that is a complete synthetic identity 200 00:09:25,820 --> 00:09:28,490 and then sign the papers for a loan, 201 00:09:28,490 --> 00:09:31,440 have them hand you a check for $250,000, 202 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,987 and thank you for ripping them off. 203 00:09:33,987 --> 00:09:35,270 "You've been one of the best customers 204 00:09:35,270 --> 00:09:36,103 I've ever worked with. 205 00:09:36,103 --> 00:09:37,620 Thank you very much." 206 00:09:37,620 --> 00:09:39,260 And walk straight out of the bank. 207 00:09:39,260 --> 00:09:42,430 I mean, you feel like 007, you feel like James Bond. 208 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:47,740 -: So you were able, 209 00:09:47,740 --> 00:09:50,670 because you're being so successful in this industry 210 00:09:50,670 --> 00:09:54,400 with your all of your fraudulent applications 211 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,840 to have your own company. 212 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,960 -: Yeah, I employed about 12 guys. 213 00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:02,080 -: Did your employees know that they were fraudulent? 214 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:02,950 -: Absolutely. 215 00:10:02,950 --> 00:10:05,400 -: Why were they prepared to get involved 216 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:06,560 with something like this? 217 00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:09,940 -: Because I was driving an Audi 218 00:10:09,940 --> 00:10:14,940 and they were driving 10-year-old Fords. 219 00:10:15,020 --> 00:10:17,360 -: Did some people say, "Well, actually I'm out." 220 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,100 -: I actually did have brokers do that. 221 00:10:19,100 --> 00:10:21,150 -: They selected themselves in a way. 222 00:10:21,150 --> 00:10:23,110 The honest people went through the door. 223 00:10:23,110 --> 00:10:24,990 The dishonest people stayed with you. 224 00:10:24,990 --> 00:10:25,823 -: Yes. 225 00:10:25,823 --> 00:10:27,950 -: But it did collapse eventually, didn't it? 226 00:10:27,950 --> 00:10:30,360 -: I was living with a girl at the time. 227 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:31,290 Her name was Amanda. 228 00:10:31,290 --> 00:10:34,900 And Amanda had gone onto my computer one day 229 00:10:34,900 --> 00:10:37,760 to pull something up for me and she saw a letter 230 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:39,653 that I'd written to my parents. 231 00:10:40,670 --> 00:10:43,460 She thought my name was Joseph Carter. 232 00:10:43,460 --> 00:10:47,420 I was Joseph Marion Carter Jr.-- 233 00:10:47,420 --> 00:10:48,253 -: Joseph Carter. 234 00:10:48,253 --> 00:10:49,510 -: So I was going by Carter. 235 00:10:49,510 --> 00:10:52,211 She had clicked on that, she looked at it, she read it, 236 00:10:52,211 --> 00:10:53,980 and it was to George and Margaret Cox 237 00:10:53,980 --> 00:10:55,440 and it was signed Matthew. 238 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,290 So she put in Matthew Cox 239 00:10:58,580 --> 00:11:02,200 and my Secret Services Most Wanted poster showed up. 240 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,430 She contacted the Secret Service. 241 00:11:04,430 --> 00:11:07,290 I get out of my vehicle, cars pull up, 242 00:11:07,290 --> 00:11:10,230 locking up their brakes. (mimics tires screeching) 243 00:11:10,230 --> 00:11:11,740 They jump out with guns. 244 00:11:11,740 --> 00:11:14,927 So I immediately thought, "I'm getting robbed." 245 00:11:16,540 --> 00:11:17,960 But then I realized when I saw Secret Service, 246 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,273 I realized that they told me to get on the ground. 247 00:11:21,500 --> 00:11:23,280 They handcuffed me. 248 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,440 -: And did you realize at that point that this was it, 249 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,713 the game was up? -: I did. 250 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,970 My Secret Services Most Wanted poster showed up. 251 00:11:35,970 --> 00:11:37,863 She contacted the Secret Service. 252 00:11:39,180 --> 00:11:41,080 -: Once you slow it down and freeze it, 253 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,470 all right, somebody is making this face at you, right. 254 00:11:44,470 --> 00:11:46,860 Particularly now looking at you like this, 255 00:11:46,860 --> 00:11:49,200 then enhances the anger face. 256 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,000 The brows are down, they're a little tense. 257 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,880 The upper eyelid is up a little bit. 258 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:54,317 He's glaring at you. 259 00:11:54,317 --> 00:11:56,320 And the lips are narrowed. 260 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,590 Darwin said that, you know, 261 00:11:58,590 --> 00:12:00,800 the lips curl in is part of an anger face 262 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,570 because it's sort of some primitive biting reflex. 263 00:12:03,570 --> 00:12:07,040 Like your dog will grow and get the lips out of the way 264 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:08,820 to facilitate a bite. 265 00:12:08,820 --> 00:12:11,810 -: If this expression were any longer you would back away, 266 00:12:11,810 --> 00:12:12,643 wouldn't you? 267 00:12:12,643 --> 00:12:15,070 Because it's pretty aggressive, right? 268 00:12:15,070 --> 00:12:16,510 -: But the thing that's also interesting is 269 00:12:16,510 --> 00:12:17,980 just how quick it was. 270 00:12:17,980 --> 00:12:21,770 And you go on and listen, half a second. 271 00:12:21,770 --> 00:12:23,190 This whole thing is on... 272 00:12:24,982 --> 00:12:26,910 and then he gets back control. 273 00:12:26,910 --> 00:12:29,170 It's caused by the fact that as he's thinking about it, 274 00:12:29,170 --> 00:12:30,610 an emotion is generated. 275 00:12:30,610 --> 00:12:32,570 Emotions are involuntary, they happen. 276 00:12:32,570 --> 00:12:35,630 And this pulse of anger shoots through his body. 277 00:12:35,630 --> 00:12:37,325 It hits his face. 278 00:12:37,325 --> 00:12:38,980 He gets it under control, 279 00:12:38,980 --> 00:12:41,963 but not before some of that leaks out. 280 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:44,440 -: Why do you think he's here? 281 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,000 -: Let's go back to James Bond. 282 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,970 -: There's no better feeling in the world 283 00:12:47,970 --> 00:12:50,920 than walking into like Bank of America, 284 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,170 have them hand you a check for $250,000. 285 00:12:54,170 --> 00:12:56,480 And thank you for ripping them off. 286 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,310 I mean, you feel like 007, you feel like James Bond. 287 00:13:00,310 --> 00:13:04,960 -: The James Bond villain cannot help telling James Bond 288 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,220 what his plan was 'cause he's so proud of the plan. 289 00:13:08,220 --> 00:13:09,053 -: Exactly. -: Right! 290 00:13:09,053 --> 00:13:10,210 And so James Bond is strapped up 291 00:13:10,210 --> 00:13:12,230 and there's a laser about to cut him in two. 292 00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:14,097 So let's go tell Bond the plan because, 293 00:13:14,097 --> 00:13:16,670 "It's so good, I can't wait to tell somebody." 294 00:13:16,670 --> 00:13:19,690 And then of course James Bond escapes and well in this case, 295 00:13:19,690 --> 00:13:21,130 Secret Service got him. 296 00:13:21,130 --> 00:13:23,650 But nonetheless, I think there's some pride in that 297 00:13:23,650 --> 00:13:24,970 and this is what we're seeing. 298 00:13:24,970 --> 00:13:26,330 -: Yeah, I think he's here not 299 00:13:26,330 --> 00:13:28,150 to learn anything about himself. 300 00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:30,490 I think he's here to sell himself 301 00:13:30,490 --> 00:13:34,630 as the con-artist extraordinaire in the hope 302 00:13:35,650 --> 00:13:39,320 that he can achieve a level of fame and fortune from this. 303 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:40,420 -: Crime that will pay. 304 00:13:41,266 --> 00:13:43,933 (gentle music) 305 00:13:56,830 --> 00:13:59,850 -: EEG is a tool to measure brain activity. 306 00:13:59,850 --> 00:14:01,070 It looks like a swim cap. 307 00:14:01,070 --> 00:14:02,083 It has electrodes on it 308 00:14:02,083 --> 00:14:04,200 that you put on your surface of the head 309 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,410 and it listens to brain cells deep inside. 310 00:14:06,410 --> 00:14:08,212 Does it feel comfortable, first of all, to you? 311 00:14:08,212 --> 00:14:09,470 -: No! 312 00:14:09,470 --> 00:14:10,940 -: I know why it's not comfortable, 313 00:14:10,940 --> 00:14:12,330 You put it reversed. -: I what? 314 00:14:12,330 --> 00:14:13,510 -: That the back of it. 315 00:14:13,510 --> 00:14:16,371 In the brain you have billions of small cells 316 00:14:16,371 --> 00:14:19,800 and they all, so to speak, makes little sound 317 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,500 that in itself is too weak for us to understand. 318 00:14:23,500 --> 00:14:25,570 If enough of them speak together, 319 00:14:25,570 --> 00:14:27,070 the EEG will pick up on that. 320 00:14:27,070 --> 00:14:29,707 So it will register that something happened in this part 321 00:14:29,707 --> 00:14:32,140 or in this part or this part. 322 00:14:32,140 --> 00:14:34,640 And now we're gonna start getting your brain data. 323 00:14:36,780 --> 00:14:37,620 And we got it. 324 00:14:37,620 --> 00:14:39,010 If I get a coronal test 325 00:14:39,010 --> 00:14:42,040 that has unique characteristic to him. 326 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:46,840 Let's say they feel no emotions at all when they see images, 327 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,620 then after I showed them enough pictures, 328 00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:52,950 then I see that those pictures don't change anything. 329 00:14:52,950 --> 00:14:55,402 There would be results there. 330 00:14:55,402 --> 00:14:57,460 One part has to remember, one part has to do with emotion, 331 00:14:57,460 --> 00:14:59,680 one part has to do with attention, and so on. 332 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:00,513 -: Okay. 333 00:15:00,513 --> 00:15:02,820 -: So for typical subject in a study, 334 00:15:02,820 --> 00:15:04,730 this person maybe doesn't feel emotion 335 00:15:04,730 --> 00:15:07,520 in a similar way to the control subjects, 336 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:08,970 and that would be a result. 337 00:15:08,970 --> 00:15:10,350 Maybe they feel more, 338 00:15:10,350 --> 00:15:12,077 maybe they're feeling emotional all the time. 339 00:15:12,077 --> 00:15:13,600 And so the changes has been not just 340 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:14,840 when I showed them bad words or good words, 341 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,050 but every time I talk, it happens. 342 00:15:16,050 --> 00:15:17,020 Also result. 343 00:15:17,020 --> 00:15:20,270 So everything that will be deviating from what I have 344 00:15:20,270 --> 00:15:23,430 as data from a lot of people that behave in one way 345 00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:24,540 would be interesting for me. 346 00:15:24,540 --> 00:15:27,160 And that's what I hope, expect, and look forward to. 347 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,720 You're gonna give me a number from one to 10, 348 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,043 Where one is very negative. 349 00:15:32,043 --> 00:15:33,663 10, very positive. 350 00:15:35,250 --> 00:15:36,083 -: Five. 351 00:15:38,670 --> 00:15:41,113 One. (chuckles) 352 00:15:41,950 --> 00:15:46,273 You know, nine. (gentle music) 353 00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:55,491 Five. (gentle music) 354 00:15:55,491 --> 00:16:00,160 Hmm, two. (gentle music) 355 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,600 Five. (gentle music) 356 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,380 Jesus, one. (gentle music) 357 00:16:07,380 --> 00:16:10,313 Five. (gentle music) 358 00:16:12,990 --> 00:16:16,560 Nine. (gentle music) 359 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,243 Three. -: Done. 360 00:16:20,030 --> 00:16:20,863 Excellent. 361 00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:23,490 How do you think you did? 362 00:16:23,490 --> 00:16:24,920 Was it hard for you or easy? 363 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,080 Did you think you did a good job or? 364 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,050 -: I would say better than average. 365 00:16:29,050 --> 00:16:30,670 -: Any pictures stood out to you saying, "Oh my God." 366 00:16:30,670 --> 00:16:33,593 -: Well, I mean, I didn't expect to see my family's pictures. 367 00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:38,280 But it didn't strike me one way or the other. 368 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,730 I kind of have a neutral feeling about that. 369 00:16:41,730 --> 00:16:44,360 -: You give them a five every time so it's neutral. 370 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:45,660 -: Yeah, there was nothing. 371 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,684 It didn't shake me or anything. 372 00:16:49,684 --> 00:16:52,267 (tense music) 373 00:16:54,950 --> 00:16:59,220 -: So did you also measure brainwave activity? 374 00:16:59,220 --> 00:17:00,053 -: Yeah. 375 00:17:00,053 --> 00:17:01,250 -: And what was happening there? 376 00:17:01,250 --> 00:17:03,350 -: It seems that his responses are all over the place, 377 00:17:03,350 --> 00:17:05,020 they cover from one to 10. 378 00:17:05,020 --> 00:17:07,320 The brain activity was a lot narrower. 379 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:12,320 So he says 10, but the level of what we call approach is 380 00:17:12,370 --> 00:17:15,560 like a six it's a little bit making him feel. 381 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,300 And when he says a one, it's usually a negative picture, 382 00:17:18,300 --> 00:17:20,010 but it makes the move to like a four. 383 00:17:20,010 --> 00:17:22,720 So he hovers around the five and he moves a little bit. 384 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,370 The brain reflects the answer. 385 00:17:24,370 --> 00:17:27,770 But verbally he's a lot more wider 386 00:17:27,770 --> 00:17:29,980 in the range than in brainwave. 387 00:17:29,980 --> 00:17:31,950 -: I'm just curious, as far as any measure 388 00:17:31,950 --> 00:17:34,780 on the specifics of those images. 389 00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:37,570 -: It wasn't the picture of the family got a five 390 00:17:37,570 --> 00:17:39,640 on the ranking, but actually in his mind 391 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,170 it was extremely negative. 392 00:17:41,170 --> 00:17:43,120 It's close enough, four to five. 393 00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:45,900 So I can't really say, "It evokes negative feelings in him, 394 00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:47,123 but he suppresses them." 395 00:17:47,123 --> 00:17:49,030 I wouldn't go that far. 396 00:17:49,030 --> 00:17:51,670 -: So could this be a case of somebody 397 00:17:51,670 --> 00:17:55,500 who is very practiced blocking out those emotions 398 00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:57,230 because they're distressing? 399 00:17:57,230 --> 00:17:59,980 -: You have to have some kind of level of control 400 00:17:59,980 --> 00:18:01,810 of your emotions if you're dealing with it all the time. 401 00:18:01,810 --> 00:18:03,330 -: You know, what are the tools that he uses 402 00:18:03,330 --> 00:18:04,970 to be able to execute the cons, right? 403 00:18:04,970 --> 00:18:07,040 So when you look at it from that point of view, 404 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:08,870 your ability to turn it on and turn it off 405 00:18:08,870 --> 00:18:11,470 to manipulate and control the interaction, 406 00:18:11,470 --> 00:18:13,813 that becomes one of these requisite skills. 407 00:18:15,107 --> 00:18:17,240 (gentle music) 408 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,440 -: I think that the childhoods of our con artists tell us 409 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:25,240 so much about the con itself. 410 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,660 So why did they choose that particular one? 411 00:18:28,660 --> 00:18:31,450 And I don't know whether they are consciously aware 412 00:18:31,450 --> 00:18:34,670 themselves of why they've taken that route, 413 00:18:34,670 --> 00:18:36,700 but it all seems to make sense 414 00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:39,413 when you learn more about their childhood. 415 00:18:40,380 --> 00:18:45,380 People often don't have any awareness of the unmet needs 416 00:18:47,030 --> 00:18:49,940 that they bring with them from childhood, 417 00:18:49,940 --> 00:18:53,300 because it's just part and parcel of their life. 418 00:18:53,300 --> 00:18:55,543 It's part and parcel of their makeup. 419 00:18:57,590 --> 00:18:59,190 So let's start at the beginning. 420 00:19:00,140 --> 00:19:03,810 You were born in Tampa, Florida. 421 00:19:03,810 --> 00:19:06,120 Tell me about your family life. 422 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:09,683 -: Our father and son time was going to the movies. 423 00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:14,373 Most of the time, it wasn't going to movies. 424 00:19:15,210 --> 00:19:17,970 He would pick me up and he'd drive me there 425 00:19:18,970 --> 00:19:20,810 and he'd give me a $20 bill. 426 00:19:20,810 --> 00:19:25,380 And he'd wait and see me go buy the ticket, walk in there, 427 00:19:25,380 --> 00:19:26,433 and then he'd leave. 428 00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:31,683 That was our father-son time. 429 00:19:33,230 --> 00:19:34,360 -: Tell me more about your father, 430 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:36,740 because I understand that he had some problems. 431 00:19:36,740 --> 00:19:38,750 -: He was an alcoholic. 432 00:19:38,750 --> 00:19:42,620 So he struggled with alcoholism 433 00:19:42,620 --> 00:19:47,620 and addiction to prescription painkillers. 434 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,070 -: So what was his pattern of behavior? 435 00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:51,867 -: He was never physically abusive, 436 00:19:51,867 --> 00:19:53,270 but he was mentally abusive. 437 00:19:53,270 --> 00:19:54,880 He was just, 438 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,413 my mom used to call it "tongue lashings," she would say. 439 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,660 He would call my sisters whores. 440 00:20:03,660 --> 00:20:07,200 My brother and I were useless and stupid. 441 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,100 We'd never be anything. 442 00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:11,480 -: And did you take that to heart? 443 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:12,330 -: Oh, definitely. 444 00:20:13,540 --> 00:20:18,110 I had dyslexia, I'm already failing in school. 445 00:20:18,110 --> 00:20:19,910 I could barely read and write. 446 00:20:19,910 --> 00:20:23,100 And I got this guy that I really admire telling me 447 00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:24,550 that I'm going to be nothing. 448 00:20:25,522 --> 00:20:28,105 (tense music) 449 00:20:29,921 --> 00:20:32,180 He was a functioning alcoholic, binge drinker. 450 00:20:32,180 --> 00:20:37,180 So he might go, he might go a month or two without drinking. 451 00:20:37,370 --> 00:20:38,870 He'd go on a binge for a week. 452 00:20:41,230 --> 00:20:42,960 He'd sober up for sometimes a year 453 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,260 and then he'd go on a binge for a week or two. 454 00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:48,957 So they put them in a rehab. 455 00:20:48,957 --> 00:20:51,623 -: I'm George, I'm an alcoholic. 456 00:20:51,623 --> 00:20:53,420 -: He'd be okay for a year or two. 457 00:20:53,420 --> 00:20:58,420 And maybe he'd get drunk three or four times in a year. 458 00:20:58,881 --> 00:21:00,870 He was an asshole. 459 00:21:00,870 --> 00:21:02,613 The bottom line is he was just an asshole. 460 00:21:02,613 --> 00:21:03,963 I never felt safe. 461 00:21:04,805 --> 00:21:08,000 -: And how did you survive those as a child? 462 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,580 -: I just became extremely quick-witted, 463 00:21:11,580 --> 00:21:13,510 was able to talk my way out. 464 00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:18,510 You become funny, you focus on getting people to like you. 465 00:21:18,577 --> 00:21:21,160 (tense music) 466 00:21:23,917 --> 00:21:26,300 -: You do see in people who are brought up 467 00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:29,390 in homes where there's alcoholism or violence 468 00:21:29,390 --> 00:21:32,780 or other sorts of things, is they become fairly vigilant. 469 00:21:32,780 --> 00:21:34,880 In fact, hypervigilant is the word that we would use. 470 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:36,410 Kerry: Well, he's looking around the room all the time. 471 00:21:36,410 --> 00:21:39,650 He seems to be monitoring his environment constantly. 472 00:21:39,650 --> 00:21:41,170 -: Right, and when you seem under threat, 473 00:21:41,170 --> 00:21:43,870 so it's clear, it initiates the emotion of fear. 474 00:21:43,870 --> 00:21:45,980 And with fear, your eyes get a little bit wider. 475 00:21:45,980 --> 00:21:48,090 Now you're looking around a little bit more. 476 00:21:48,090 --> 00:21:49,140 And when you widen your eyes, 477 00:21:49,140 --> 00:21:50,950 you're sort of expanding your visual field. 478 00:21:50,950 --> 00:21:53,630 And then moving your eyes, you're expanding it even further. 479 00:21:53,630 --> 00:21:55,870 And it often becomes sort of subconscious at this level. 480 00:21:55,870 --> 00:21:58,690 He knows you're not going to go take a swing at him. 481 00:21:58,690 --> 00:22:01,220 -: Yeah, but he didn't know that when he was a child, did he? 482 00:22:01,220 --> 00:22:02,810 He didn't know that his father wasn't going 483 00:22:02,810 --> 00:22:04,240 to take a swing at him. 484 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,460 And let's not forget, 485 00:22:05,460 --> 00:22:08,280 this is a man who's just out of federal prison. 486 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,860 He was on the run for how many years? 487 00:22:10,860 --> 00:22:13,090 Where he had to be aware of his environment 488 00:22:13,090 --> 00:22:15,630 because he could have been apprehended at any time. 489 00:22:15,630 --> 00:22:17,500 So that hypervigilance, 490 00:22:17,500 --> 00:22:21,350 do you think that that will impact on his test results? 491 00:22:21,350 --> 00:22:23,770 -: He would be better than average for sure. 492 00:22:23,770 --> 00:22:25,780 As far as reading the subtle emotions, 493 00:22:25,780 --> 00:22:27,580 children raised in abused environment. 494 00:22:27,580 --> 00:22:30,390 So you would definitely predict that he would be better 495 00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:33,720 than the average person at reading other people. 496 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,720 We're gonna start out by looking at your judgment, 497 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,310 your ability to read other people. 498 00:22:39,310 --> 00:22:41,390 So there's going to be two tests. 499 00:22:41,390 --> 00:22:44,590 This first one is going to feature 10 people 500 00:22:44,590 --> 00:22:47,620 and they are going to either lie or tell the truth 501 00:22:47,620 --> 00:22:50,860 about their opinion on one of two topics. 502 00:22:50,860 --> 00:22:52,010 One topic was worded 503 00:22:52,010 --> 00:22:55,890 should convicted cold-blooded murderers be executed? 504 00:22:55,890 --> 00:22:58,490 So some people say yes, some say no. 505 00:22:58,490 --> 00:23:00,320 Are they telling the truth when they say yes, 506 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,590 or are they lying when they say yes? 507 00:23:02,590 --> 00:23:04,620 Or same with the no. 508 00:23:04,620 --> 00:23:06,140 -: Okay? -: Okay. 509 00:23:06,140 --> 00:23:08,323 -: All right, so. -: Go ahead? 510 00:23:08,323 --> 00:23:10,011 -: Yes, go ahead. -: All right. 511 00:23:10,011 --> 00:23:12,080 Interviewer: What is your position on execution? 512 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,070 -: I don't believe that they should be executed. 513 00:23:15,070 --> 00:23:17,463 Interviewer: Why do you believe that? 514 00:23:17,463 --> 00:23:22,463 -: I don't see how the state can justify itself 515 00:23:23,940 --> 00:23:28,940 and I should kill another person to justify what they, 516 00:23:30,390 --> 00:23:31,301 what the other person's done. 517 00:23:31,301 --> 00:23:32,134 You know? 518 00:23:32,134 --> 00:23:34,717 (tense music) 519 00:23:35,979 --> 00:23:37,180 -: Smoking and non-smoking sections, 520 00:23:37,180 --> 00:23:40,199 I mean, that's seems fair enough to me. 521 00:23:40,199 --> 00:23:42,540 Interviewer: How long have you had this? 522 00:23:42,540 --> 00:23:43,850 -: Ever since they brought it up, 523 00:23:43,850 --> 00:23:45,889 ever since it was in the news and stuff like that. 524 00:23:45,889 --> 00:23:48,181 -: Is this your true belief? -: Yes. 525 00:23:48,181 --> 00:23:51,041 -: You didn't just make this up? 526 00:23:51,041 --> 00:23:53,396 -: No. (chuckles) 527 00:23:53,396 --> 00:23:54,846 -: Are you lying to me? -: No. 528 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:58,820 -: Liar, I could see you look completely uncomfortable. 529 00:24:00,193 --> 00:24:01,960 -: Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. 530 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,453 And I feel that it's justice. 531 00:24:05,770 --> 00:24:08,390 There's always a chance that it could be the wrong person 532 00:24:08,390 --> 00:24:09,540 or something like that. 533 00:24:10,573 --> 00:24:13,184 (tense music) 534 00:24:13,184 --> 00:24:17,370 -: Boy, I believed him til the end. 535 00:24:17,370 --> 00:24:20,220 -: There were a couple of times where you said, "you know, 536 00:24:20,220 --> 00:24:22,320 I've heard enough time to move on." 537 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:23,810 Why was that? 538 00:24:23,810 --> 00:24:28,810 -: One of the guys was he had no reason... 539 00:24:29,711 --> 00:24:33,063 for why he felt the way he felt. 540 00:24:34,130 --> 00:24:38,840 I think that the majority of people I basically trust. 541 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,350 If you have a motivation to lie 542 00:24:42,350 --> 00:24:44,323 or you're trying to convince me of something 543 00:24:44,323 --> 00:24:46,240 then I automatically don't trust you. 544 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:47,200 You need something from me. 545 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:48,160 You want something from me. 546 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,080 So I immediately just distrust you. 547 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,477 But if I just bumped into some guy and he says, 548 00:24:52,477 --> 00:24:53,400 "Hey, what's up? 549 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,120 I like your shirt," or whatever, I believe him. 550 00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:57,463 There's no reason for you to lie about that. 551 00:24:57,463 --> 00:24:59,010 There's no benefit. 552 00:24:59,010 --> 00:25:00,410 If there's a benefit for you 553 00:25:01,246 --> 00:25:02,996 then I question everything you say. 554 00:25:03,910 --> 00:25:07,937 Big believer in Ronald Reagan, "trust, but verify." 555 00:25:07,937 --> 00:25:10,437 (tense music) 556 00:25:24,420 --> 00:25:27,330 -: He gets about 70% on the deception test. 557 00:25:27,330 --> 00:25:28,740 That is high. 558 00:25:28,740 --> 00:25:31,160 The group who we've tested has done the best on this 559 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,600 is the US Secret Service and they average 73%. 560 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,600 So he is right on the cusp of where they as a group will do. 561 00:25:39,630 --> 00:25:41,790 And that's the best group we've ever tested on. 562 00:25:41,790 --> 00:25:44,360 -: So the headline is Matthew Cox, 563 00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:47,145 better than the Secret Service in detecting deception. 564 00:25:47,145 --> 00:25:49,570 -: Not better, but close. -: Close. 565 00:25:49,570 --> 00:25:51,690 -: And I think he probably be very happy to hear that. 566 00:25:51,690 --> 00:25:53,620 Talked about the Secret Service chasing him down 567 00:25:53,620 --> 00:25:54,963 on more than one occasion. 568 00:25:56,204 --> 00:25:59,170 It suggests though that he's very good at reading people 569 00:25:59,170 --> 00:26:01,630 and judging and assessing them. 570 00:26:01,630 --> 00:26:03,140 -: And this makes sense because he's spending 571 00:26:03,140 --> 00:26:04,290 all of time reading people, right? 572 00:26:04,290 --> 00:26:06,620 Like you kind of constantly, 573 00:26:06,620 --> 00:26:10,500 you talk to him and he's busy playing a chess game 574 00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:11,780 with entire room. -: Right. 575 00:26:11,780 --> 00:26:14,000 And he has this ability to learn from it. 576 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,150 'Cause you know, in everything he does, 577 00:26:16,150 --> 00:26:19,010 it's almost this sort of blunt force learning. 578 00:26:19,010 --> 00:26:20,410 -: The positive version of ADHD. 579 00:26:20,410 --> 00:26:22,890 You're constantly running around doing other things, 580 00:26:22,890 --> 00:26:25,590 but it's all in the service of understanding the room. 581 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,580 -: You started working 1998 with Eagle Finance Service? 582 00:26:36,580 --> 00:26:38,000 -: It was Eagle Lending. 583 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,340 The first loan I ever did had fraud. 584 00:26:40,340 --> 00:26:42,820 Before you sent off a package to the home office 585 00:26:42,820 --> 00:26:45,560 to be underwritten, you're to bring it to your manager. 586 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,900 She said, "Your borrower has a 30 day late 587 00:26:47,900 --> 00:26:49,357 on her verification of rent." 588 00:26:50,290 --> 00:26:53,950 And that was it, your deal is done, it's over. 589 00:26:53,950 --> 00:26:55,580 She pulled out a bottle of White Out. 590 00:26:55,580 --> 00:26:57,860 Do you remember the old White Out, you could (swishing)? 591 00:26:57,860 --> 00:26:59,100 -: Do you have problems in your life 592 00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:00,130 that you want to get rid of? 593 00:27:00,130 --> 00:27:01,970 -: She started going, she goes here's what I'd do. 594 00:27:01,970 --> 00:27:04,640 -: Seriously, White Out will solve all your problems. 595 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,340 -: She said, "I would white it out, 596 00:27:06,340 --> 00:27:08,920 make a copy of it, and stick that back in the file, 597 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,200 send it to underwriting." 598 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,010 And I was like, "That's fraud. 599 00:27:13,010 --> 00:27:14,050 Like I could go to jail." 600 00:27:14,050 --> 00:27:17,720 And she said, "You're not gonna get caught." 601 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,430 And so I whited it out. 602 00:27:19,430 --> 00:27:21,803 I made a copy, stuck it in the file, 603 00:27:21,803 --> 00:27:23,253 sent it to underwriting. 604 00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:26,220 The loan came back, it was approved. 605 00:27:26,220 --> 00:27:28,020 I got a check for 3,500 bucks. 606 00:27:28,020 --> 00:27:30,260 I was thrilled, thrilled. 607 00:27:30,260 --> 00:27:31,671 Next guy that came in, 608 00:27:31,671 --> 00:27:34,490 three days later, I got a loan to close. 609 00:27:34,490 --> 00:27:35,770 Next guy, same thing. 610 00:27:35,770 --> 00:27:38,250 Next guy, listen, after a couple of months, 611 00:27:38,250 --> 00:27:40,610 if you walked into my office with a pulse, 612 00:27:40,610 --> 00:27:41,760 you were getting alone. 613 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,760 -: Matt has the ability to kind of turn off any feelings 614 00:27:48,690 --> 00:27:51,610 that he might have about who else might get hurt 615 00:27:51,610 --> 00:27:52,850 in the process. 616 00:27:52,850 --> 00:27:57,850 It didn't bother him to charge somebody a lot of money, 617 00:27:57,851 --> 00:28:01,060 you know, more than what was fair. 618 00:28:01,060 --> 00:28:06,000 I still feel a little uncomfortable, you know, 619 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,113 not disclosing all that to those people. 620 00:28:09,472 --> 00:28:12,055 (tense music) 621 00:28:17,050 --> 00:28:19,480 Kerry: What do you make of Mr. Matthew Cox? 622 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,300 -: He basically said that he's a psychopath. 623 00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:25,080 I mean, he has psychopathy. 624 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,330 And he said that it's on a scale, 625 00:28:27,330 --> 00:28:28,410 because I was a bit like, "Ooh." 626 00:28:28,410 --> 00:28:31,610 -: So how long had you been speaking to him 627 00:28:31,610 --> 00:28:34,640 before he told you that he was a psychopath? 628 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,060 -: I think in that first 10 minutes, I would say. 629 00:28:37,060 --> 00:28:39,610 -: Within the first 10 minutes of meeting you, 630 00:28:39,610 --> 00:28:41,890 he announces that he's a psychopath? 631 00:28:41,890 --> 00:28:44,700 -: But it almost felt like a bit threat. 632 00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:47,550 Because he said like, "Be careful what you say about me." 633 00:28:49,620 --> 00:28:51,140 -: I was wondering, 634 00:28:51,140 --> 00:28:54,240 because I've heard that you're quite upfront with people 635 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:55,457 when you first meet them. 636 00:28:55,457 --> 00:28:59,830 "Hi, I'm Matt Cox, and oh, I'm a psychopath." 637 00:28:59,830 --> 00:29:00,872 Has it become-- 638 00:29:00,872 --> 00:29:02,410 -: (chuckles) I don't think I've said that. 639 00:29:02,410 --> 00:29:05,187 My into is, my catchphrase is, 640 00:29:05,187 --> 00:29:07,940 "Hi, my name's Matt Cox and I'm a con man." 641 00:29:07,940 --> 00:29:09,518 -: Right, okay. 642 00:29:09,518 --> 00:29:10,840 -: I think if the psychopath comes up, 643 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,670 if somebody says, "Well, you know, you feel bad about that?" 644 00:29:14,670 --> 00:29:16,727 Or I've had numerous people ask me, 645 00:29:16,727 --> 00:29:18,420 "Do you feel bad about that?" 646 00:29:18,420 --> 00:29:20,520 No, no, and if they say "Why?" 647 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,920 Then I typically say, "'Cause I'm a psychopath." 648 00:29:23,810 --> 00:29:27,780 -: I want to know whether he's as big a psychopath 649 00:29:27,780 --> 00:29:32,780 as he wants us to believe or whether actually, 650 00:29:32,870 --> 00:29:35,580 we're being conned a little bit there as well. 651 00:29:35,580 --> 00:29:38,620 -: If you were to kind of give it a intuitive answer, 652 00:29:38,620 --> 00:29:41,170 do you think that those are applicable to him 653 00:29:41,170 --> 00:29:43,440 or it's just a good show? 654 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:44,950 -: Of course it works nicely for him. 655 00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:48,217 It means that nobody can have any expectations 656 00:29:48,217 --> 00:29:50,140 of reasonable behavior from him, 657 00:29:50,140 --> 00:29:51,547 because, "Hey, I'm a psychopath." 658 00:29:51,547 --> 00:29:54,840 -: One of the observations that Kerry and I sort of came 659 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,460 to a conclusion watching him was 660 00:29:56,460 --> 00:29:59,440 he was an adrenaline junkie, it looked like. 661 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,580 -: Well, it seems that being a con artist 662 00:30:02,580 --> 00:30:04,850 is his own extreme sport. 663 00:30:04,850 --> 00:30:06,390 He just absolutely loves it. 664 00:30:06,390 --> 00:30:08,830 And he's very comfortable talking about it, 665 00:30:08,830 --> 00:30:09,663 which is brilliant. 666 00:30:09,663 --> 00:30:13,320 It's brilliant for us because he's giving us a master class 667 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,253 in how to pull off a con. 668 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,320 -: I'd seen the movie "Reservoir Dogs" by Tarantino. 669 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,777 In the movie they'd given all the bad guys 670 00:30:24,777 --> 00:30:27,270 these color coded names. 671 00:30:27,270 --> 00:30:28,930 So what I decided on was 672 00:30:28,930 --> 00:30:32,000 I was gonna start using color-coded names. 673 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:37,000 So I went with Michael White, David Silver, 674 00:30:37,090 --> 00:30:42,090 Lee Black, Brandon Green, James Red, Glen Pink. 675 00:30:43,879 --> 00:30:46,423 At the time I thought I was being cute. 676 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,510 The judge didn't think it was cute. 677 00:30:51,410 --> 00:30:53,150 And I would go online and I would apply 678 00:30:53,150 --> 00:30:58,150 for secured credit cards in the name, Brandon Green. 679 00:30:58,710 --> 00:31:01,890 Only this time, I wouldn't use the date of birth 680 00:31:01,890 --> 00:31:03,700 of a 10-month-old child, 681 00:31:03,700 --> 00:31:06,920 I would use the date of birth for the same date of birth, 682 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,500 but the year I would change for a 32-year-old man. 683 00:31:11,500 --> 00:31:16,500 There's Brandon Green works here, has three credit cards. 684 00:31:16,580 --> 00:31:18,220 All of them are paid well. 685 00:31:18,220 --> 00:31:20,633 Now I've got a perfect synthetic identity. 686 00:31:22,210 --> 00:31:24,030 -: Do you think he is smart? 687 00:31:24,030 --> 00:31:25,590 Above average? -: Yeah. 688 00:31:25,590 --> 00:31:30,330 -: He says that he has an IQ of around 130, 140, 689 00:31:30,330 --> 00:31:31,617 which is way above average. 690 00:31:31,617 --> 00:31:34,050 Undoubtedly, he's a smart guy. 691 00:31:34,050 --> 00:31:36,920 -: And he has this ability to iteratively learn, right? 692 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,860 So one step, but the keep in mind with each of these steps, 693 00:31:39,860 --> 00:31:41,820 you have to remember all these steps. 694 00:31:41,820 --> 00:31:43,010 So they build on each other 695 00:31:43,010 --> 00:31:45,910 and he doesn't seem to lose the previous step. 696 00:31:45,910 --> 00:31:48,400 -: Can you imagine the confusion for most people 697 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,753 in having a range of different identities? 698 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,250 -: One time I was running up a bunch of credit cards 699 00:31:56,250 --> 00:31:59,070 for like 50,000 or $100,000. 700 00:31:59,070 --> 00:32:00,870 I remember walking in, 701 00:32:00,870 --> 00:32:03,160 randomly gave the person the credit card 702 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,790 and they went, "Huh, it says to call." 703 00:32:05,790 --> 00:32:08,600 This was back when they would call. 704 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,447 And the woman turns to me and she says, 705 00:32:10,447 --> 00:32:11,420 "They want your date of birth." 706 00:32:11,420 --> 00:32:13,150 And I go, "Huh? 707 00:32:13,150 --> 00:32:15,570 Hold on a second, let me see who I am today." 708 00:32:15,570 --> 00:32:18,107 And I open up the wallet, I said, 709 00:32:18,107 --> 00:32:21,990 "I'm so-and-so and my date of birth is July 7th, 1970. 710 00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:22,850 There it is right there." 711 00:32:22,850 --> 00:32:26,280 And she went (chuckles) "Oh, it's 1970." 712 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,360 -: That wasn't it a huge red flag? 713 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,713 -: I could just be some jerk who's being cute. 714 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,677 My name is Matt Cox and I'm a con man. 715 00:32:34,677 --> 00:32:37,140 What are you concerned about doing one? 716 00:32:37,140 --> 00:32:39,270 I've never seen 55 million dollars. 717 00:32:39,270 --> 00:32:40,860 Anyway, being on the run was 718 00:32:40,860 --> 00:32:44,937 the most alive times of my life. 719 00:32:44,937 --> 00:32:47,520 (tense music) 720 00:32:48,847 --> 00:32:51,833 -: Was it a stressful way to live? 721 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,382 -: I mean, yes, but at that point 722 00:32:59,382 --> 00:33:02,886 I was taking a drug called Paxil. 723 00:33:02,886 --> 00:33:05,170 (tense music) 724 00:33:05,170 --> 00:33:07,280 Everything's perfectly okay and everything went fine 725 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:08,113 and everything is great. 726 00:33:08,113 --> 00:33:09,410 And you're walking through the supermarket 727 00:33:09,410 --> 00:33:12,710 and suddenly I would get this overwhelming sensation 728 00:33:12,710 --> 00:33:15,430 that God was about to just kill me. 729 00:33:15,430 --> 00:33:16,600 I was about to die. 730 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,830 And my heart starts pumping, you know, 731 00:33:18,830 --> 00:33:22,040 banging in my chest, and I stop and I can't catch my breath. 732 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,210 And I'm thinking, "Oh my God, I'm dying, I'm dying." 733 00:33:24,210 --> 00:33:28,140 Like, "I'm about to die and you have this coming." 734 00:33:28,140 --> 00:33:30,267 My rational thought is thinking, 735 00:33:30,267 --> 00:33:31,660 "What are you doing? 736 00:33:31,660 --> 00:33:33,360 You're like 32-years-old. 737 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:34,740 You're in great shape. 738 00:33:34,740 --> 00:33:36,370 You're not gonna die. 739 00:33:36,370 --> 00:33:38,690 You're fine, this is just anxiety. 740 00:33:38,690 --> 00:33:39,913 Take a Xanax." 741 00:33:39,913 --> 00:33:42,950 (gentle music) 742 00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:45,090 -: And were there any particular incidents 743 00:33:45,090 --> 00:33:47,120 that proceeded those panic attacks? 744 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:52,120 -: No, because by that point I was closing loans 745 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,570 with that contained fraud so regularly. 746 00:33:57,570 --> 00:33:59,670 It was every few days. 747 00:33:59,670 --> 00:34:01,900 This loans closing, there's bad W-2's. 748 00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:04,530 This loans closing, that company doesn't exist. 749 00:34:04,530 --> 00:34:05,830 You know, this loans closing 750 00:34:05,830 --> 00:34:08,470 and this guy's getting $60,000 back 751 00:34:08,470 --> 00:34:09,560 that he's not supposed to. 752 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,580 And you know, there was always something going wrong with, 753 00:34:12,580 --> 00:34:15,740 not going wrong, but some fraudulent thing happening 754 00:34:15,740 --> 00:34:18,050 in all of these transactions all the time. 755 00:34:18,050 --> 00:34:20,330 So the stress level is up there. 756 00:34:20,330 --> 00:34:23,410 It's being mitigated by drugs, 757 00:34:23,410 --> 00:34:25,770 and periodically, there's a panic attack in there, 758 00:34:25,770 --> 00:34:29,570 and you take a Xanax and just keep on going. 759 00:34:29,570 --> 00:34:32,530 -: From all of my experience with people who do bad things, 760 00:34:32,530 --> 00:34:35,160 there are a lot of moments where they kind of feel remorse 761 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:36,640 and they feel regret or they expend, 762 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,851 but there's one thing that's common to all of them. 763 00:34:38,851 --> 00:34:40,670 And that is when you ask them to reflect on it, 764 00:34:40,670 --> 00:34:43,130 they say, "I felt alive." 765 00:34:43,130 --> 00:34:44,610 -: And he mentioned this, right? 766 00:34:44,610 --> 00:34:47,210 When he's immersed in the moment, 767 00:34:47,210 --> 00:34:49,230 he has panic attacks later, 768 00:34:49,230 --> 00:34:51,480 but never in the moment, never while it's going on. 769 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,850 It's always sort of a delayed reaction 770 00:34:53,850 --> 00:34:56,130 at some random point afterwards. 771 00:34:56,130 --> 00:34:57,400 So while he's in it though, 772 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,840 it' engages, I think, all of his senses, 773 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,280 all of his mind, everything is tied up. 774 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,362 He's alive. -: He's in flow. 775 00:35:04,362 --> 00:35:07,010 He's in creative flow, but on steroids. 776 00:35:07,010 --> 00:35:10,990 -: His fear of insignificance is so strong 777 00:35:10,990 --> 00:35:15,630 that it overrides the social norms that you would have. 778 00:35:15,630 --> 00:35:18,210 He's jovial on the outside, 779 00:35:18,210 --> 00:35:20,970 but I don't think he ever, ever experiences 780 00:35:20,970 --> 00:35:23,999 any true peace or satisfaction. 781 00:35:23,999 --> 00:35:26,666 (gentle music) 782 00:35:32,010 --> 00:35:33,470 -: What you're going to see is 783 00:35:33,470 --> 00:35:35,767 like a neutral face will pop up. 784 00:35:35,767 --> 00:35:36,600 -: Right. 785 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,080 -: And then about three seconds later, 786 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:39,960 you'll see the same person, 787 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,363 but this time showing an expression, 788 00:35:42,363 --> 00:35:45,940 maybe like happy or fear or whatever, 789 00:35:45,940 --> 00:35:47,920 but only for one fifteenth of a second. 790 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,620 And then it goes back to the neutral face. 791 00:35:49,620 --> 00:35:51,480 So it'll be a flash. 792 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,611 So once that image appears, don't blink. 793 00:35:55,611 --> 00:35:57,004 Then make your judgment, 794 00:35:57,004 --> 00:35:59,280 circle what emotion you thought you saw. 795 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,993 Okay? (tense music) 796 00:36:01,993 --> 00:36:03,243 It is a very quick flash. 797 00:36:04,220 --> 00:36:05,996 Use your best judgment. 798 00:36:05,996 --> 00:36:08,579 (tense music) 799 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,290 The term we use for these are called micro expressions. 800 00:36:15,290 --> 00:36:17,840 A little artificial because in daily day-to-day life, 801 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,730 people don't go, with a neutral face. 802 00:36:20,730 --> 00:36:22,860 They're talking, their heads are moving, 803 00:36:22,860 --> 00:36:25,090 but you might get little expressions. 804 00:36:25,090 --> 00:36:27,180 Sometimes they fit what the person is saying 805 00:36:27,180 --> 00:36:29,010 and sometimes they don't. 806 00:36:29,010 --> 00:36:30,830 How good are you at perceiving that? 807 00:36:31,874 --> 00:36:34,457 (tense music) 808 00:36:59,516 --> 00:37:00,564 Is that the last one? 809 00:37:00,564 --> 00:37:01,795 -: That's it. -: Okay. 810 00:37:01,795 --> 00:37:04,378 (tense music) 811 00:37:14,210 --> 00:37:15,730 Let's look at his ability to judge 812 00:37:15,730 --> 00:37:18,390 very subtle emotions shown one fifteenth of the second, 813 00:37:18,390 --> 00:37:19,603 these micro expressions. 814 00:37:20,979 --> 00:37:22,646 He gets 64% correct on this. 815 00:37:22,646 --> 00:37:26,170 The average person gets 55 or so. 816 00:37:26,170 --> 00:37:28,000 So he's scoring higher than average there. 817 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,680 Now he's not scoring like super high, 818 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,570 so it shows he is perceptive, but again, 819 00:37:32,570 --> 00:37:35,460 not off the charts perceptive, but yet perceptive. 820 00:37:35,460 --> 00:37:38,700 -: I had him take the effective test where, you know, 821 00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:41,760 asked him about emotions in response of things. 822 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,340 And I noticed that his response, 823 00:37:45,340 --> 00:37:47,960 when he gives you the answer are not aligned 824 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:49,530 with what I think his brain tells me. 825 00:37:49,530 --> 00:37:51,300 So he sees a picture of something 826 00:37:51,300 --> 00:37:52,210 and he gives a correct answer. 827 00:37:52,210 --> 00:37:54,010 He says, "That's a bad picture," 828 00:37:54,010 --> 00:37:57,110 but he doesn't respond in disgust to a bad picture. 829 00:37:57,110 --> 00:37:59,100 He kind of knows the correct answer, 830 00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:01,840 but it doesn't seem to show in the way I would expect. 831 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,580 -: Maybe he's just playing it close to the vest. 832 00:38:03,580 --> 00:38:07,720 -: He fell right where the average person falls, 833 00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:09,330 in the middle of the bell curve. 834 00:38:09,330 --> 00:38:14,110 Maybe he just learned to become kind of blend in 835 00:38:14,110 --> 00:38:15,670 because that's a good con artist skill 836 00:38:15,670 --> 00:38:17,380 to look like everyone else. 837 00:38:17,380 --> 00:38:18,213 -: Yeah, it's funny, you know, 838 00:38:18,213 --> 00:38:20,087 I was just thinking exactly that when you were saying that. 839 00:38:20,087 --> 00:38:21,900 You know, we worry about tests, 840 00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:26,110 people faking good or faking bad, but people faking average. 841 00:38:26,110 --> 00:38:28,050 Is that (chuckles) actually a thing, right? 842 00:38:28,050 --> 00:38:31,080 -: That is the result, just the center. 843 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,240 -: Maybe that's the con man skillset, right? 844 00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:36,050 Faking average, looking, blending in, all the other stuff. 845 00:38:36,050 --> 00:38:37,350 -: That actually would make sense. 846 00:38:37,350 --> 00:38:38,183 Like you go to a room, 847 00:38:38,183 --> 00:38:39,521 you check all the 20 people in the room 848 00:38:39,521 --> 00:38:40,730 and kind of figure out what's the average, 849 00:38:40,730 --> 00:38:42,271 what's the bell curve. 850 00:38:42,271 --> 00:38:43,104 And you say, "Okay, I'm gonna pivot 851 00:38:43,104 --> 00:38:44,370 to be like everyone else. 852 00:38:44,370 --> 00:38:46,590 So no, one's going to tell that I am the outlier." 853 00:38:46,590 --> 00:38:47,900 -: And when he shows up at the bank, 854 00:38:47,900 --> 00:38:49,340 you want to look average. 855 00:38:49,340 --> 00:38:51,210 You don't want to look really poor. 856 00:38:51,210 --> 00:38:52,210 You don't want to look really rich. 857 00:38:52,210 --> 00:38:53,363 You don't want to do things 858 00:38:53,363 --> 00:38:54,307 that are gonna draw attention to yourself. 859 00:38:54,307 --> 00:38:57,957 "I'm an average guy taking out $26,000 in cash." 860 00:38:58,854 --> 00:39:01,437 (tense music) 861 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,000 -: I noticed when we were chatting in the kitchen, 862 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,550 you mirror body language. 863 00:39:13,550 --> 00:39:16,060 Do you do that deliberately 864 00:39:16,060 --> 00:39:18,400 or is that just something that you do naturally? 865 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:19,630 So when I change-- -: I didn't notice it. 866 00:39:19,630 --> 00:39:21,130 -: You don't notice that? -: No. 867 00:39:21,130 --> 00:39:23,210 -: So when I was like this in the kitchen. 868 00:39:23,210 --> 00:39:24,780 -: I wasn't feeling defensive. 869 00:39:24,780 --> 00:39:26,193 -: Yeah, so that was just a natural-- 870 00:39:26,193 --> 00:39:28,009 -: Or maybe I was. 871 00:39:28,009 --> 00:39:28,842 -: Oh, I don't know that. 872 00:39:28,842 --> 00:39:29,675 But you-- 873 00:39:29,675 --> 00:39:31,590 -: Little bit, told my girlfriend, 874 00:39:31,590 --> 00:39:34,010 I said, "I don't think this chick likes me. 875 00:39:34,010 --> 00:39:37,400 She's a little bit hard on me." 876 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,560 -: I'm a little bit hard on everybody. 877 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,250 That's my job, that's my job. 878 00:39:41,250 --> 00:39:43,673 But it's not been too bad, has it? 879 00:39:45,170 --> 00:39:46,843 -: It hasn't been super comfortable. 880 00:39:47,804 --> 00:39:50,360 (tense music) 881 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,580 -: He's a marvelous liar. 882 00:39:52,580 --> 00:39:56,330 Like he had me convinced about his ex-wife, 883 00:39:56,330 --> 00:39:58,910 when her and I got together after he took off 884 00:39:58,910 --> 00:40:02,503 and we started comparing notes, it was amazing. 885 00:40:04,060 --> 00:40:07,050 Just the intricate lies that he told 886 00:40:07,050 --> 00:40:09,640 to keep the two of us from talking. 887 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,700 To keep lies like that going, and that's five years, 888 00:40:13,700 --> 00:40:15,470 he was married and then divorced 889 00:40:15,470 --> 00:40:17,810 the whole time I was around. 890 00:40:17,810 --> 00:40:19,620 Like, it was fantastic. 891 00:40:19,620 --> 00:40:21,670 He's a fantastic liar. 892 00:40:21,670 --> 00:40:24,253 (tense music) 893 00:40:25,140 --> 00:40:27,490 -: These are women that I was dating 894 00:40:27,490 --> 00:40:29,010 that saw that I had money 895 00:40:29,010 --> 00:40:31,340 that were interested in getting involved 896 00:40:31,340 --> 00:40:32,890 and making some money. 897 00:40:32,890 --> 00:40:35,070 Now I'm not running a charity. 898 00:40:35,070 --> 00:40:37,980 If you say, "Hey, you know, what can I do 899 00:40:37,980 --> 00:40:39,630 so I can make some money?" 900 00:40:39,630 --> 00:40:40,557 Well, then I'm gonna say, 901 00:40:40,557 --> 00:40:42,967 "Well, look, if you want to do this and this and this, 902 00:40:42,967 --> 00:40:47,130 I'll give you this percentage of whatever we end up making." 903 00:40:47,130 --> 00:40:49,423 What happens is then when they get caught, 904 00:40:50,637 --> 00:40:55,250 it turned into, "He targeted me. 905 00:40:55,250 --> 00:40:56,900 He knew I was broke. 906 00:40:56,900 --> 00:41:00,190 He knew I was a single mother struggling. 907 00:41:00,190 --> 00:41:04,402 He coerced me into getting involved in his scams." 908 00:41:04,402 --> 00:41:07,240 (tense music) 909 00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:11,362 And all of that was done and orchestrated by this attorney 910 00:41:11,362 --> 00:41:13,460 so that when they got in front of the judge, 911 00:41:13,460 --> 00:41:16,143 they could try and mitigate their role. 912 00:41:17,110 --> 00:41:20,200 The media picked up on it because that's great. 913 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,460 This guy's a complete scumbag! 914 00:41:22,460 --> 00:41:26,850 What I did is bad enough, I don't need you to make it worse! 915 00:41:26,850 --> 00:41:29,840 -: Everybody paid a price that associated 916 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,763 with Matt somehow some way. 917 00:41:34,266 --> 00:41:35,770 Some people did jail time. 918 00:41:35,770 --> 00:41:38,010 Some of them are on probation. 919 00:41:38,010 --> 00:41:38,843 Some of them lost lots of money, 920 00:41:38,843 --> 00:41:40,783 recognition, all that stuff. 921 00:41:40,783 --> 00:41:45,783 And I just think, "You can sit there and say, 922 00:41:46,337 --> 00:41:47,670 "Well, Matt's manipulative," 923 00:41:47,670 --> 00:41:49,210 and Matt's this and that and everything, 924 00:41:49,210 --> 00:41:50,936 but we're all adults. 925 00:41:50,936 --> 00:41:53,440 We're all adults and responsible 926 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,120 for the choices that we make. 927 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,410 -: But then how you met your current girlfriend? 928 00:41:57,410 --> 00:41:59,940 -: I met in the halfway house. 929 00:41:59,940 --> 00:42:01,140 -: What is a halfway house? 930 00:42:01,140 --> 00:42:03,360 -: So when you're released from prison, 931 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,100 they release you to a halfway house. 932 00:42:05,100 --> 00:42:09,240 She had been in prison for five years on a meth conspiracy. 933 00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:10,680 So she was a drug dealer. 934 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,200 I met her in the halfway house. 935 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:14,120 I targeted her. 936 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,428 She's a single mother and I targeted her. 937 00:42:16,428 --> 00:42:19,020 And I thought, "I'm making her my girlfriend 938 00:42:19,020 --> 00:42:20,420 and she has no choice." 939 00:42:20,420 --> 00:42:22,570 So I worked on over the next six months 940 00:42:22,570 --> 00:42:27,385 and we started dating and we're still dating to this day. 941 00:42:27,385 --> 00:42:29,968 (gentle music) 942 00:42:33,730 --> 00:42:36,800 -: It seems to me that you are a fast learner. 943 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,200 So when you got caught for the first time, 944 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:41,293 why didn't you stop? 945 00:42:44,350 --> 00:42:49,350 -: Well, so after getting caught, I had two choices. 946 00:42:50,490 --> 00:42:54,840 It's either claim bankruptcy and get a job at McDonald's 947 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,210 and start my whole life over as a felon, 948 00:42:58,210 --> 00:43:03,210 or I thought I could just go deeper into the fraud. 949 00:43:04,830 --> 00:43:09,830 I'd done a bunch of fraudulent loans for my ex-wife. 950 00:43:10,260 --> 00:43:12,900 She borrowed like half a million dollars on some houses. 951 00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:15,180 She then called me and asked me 952 00:43:15,180 --> 00:43:16,730 to meet her and her husband for lunch. 953 00:43:16,730 --> 00:43:20,070 She tells me the FBI raided her office, 954 00:43:20,070 --> 00:43:24,960 took a bunch of her files, and took some of my files 955 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,360 that proved that were fraudulent. 956 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,507 And she said, "The FBI is asking me questions about you." 957 00:43:31,410 --> 00:43:33,197 I immediately start saying, 958 00:43:33,197 --> 00:43:35,440 "Oh my God, you didn't tell him this, did you? 959 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,210 You didn't tell him the W-2's are fake? 960 00:43:37,210 --> 00:43:38,057 You didn't tell him this?" 961 00:43:38,057 --> 00:43:41,500 You just start, I mean, I laid out their case for them 962 00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:43,350 within about 30 seconds. 963 00:43:43,350 --> 00:43:46,597 And then as I'm talking, I realize, 964 00:43:46,597 --> 00:43:50,464 "Oh man, she and her husband are wired." 965 00:43:50,464 --> 00:43:52,730 (tense music) 966 00:43:52,730 --> 00:43:54,200 -: You got set up and you got played. 967 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:55,610 So how did you feel? 968 00:43:55,610 --> 00:43:59,000 -: Oh, that was horrible, horrible! 969 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,920 And I was just like, just shocked. 970 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,401 And the truth is it was, you know, pride. 971 00:44:05,401 --> 00:44:07,490 My pride has gotten me into so much trouble. 972 00:44:07,490 --> 00:44:09,570 Every bad decision I've ever made in my life 973 00:44:09,570 --> 00:44:11,470 was all based on my pride. 974 00:44:11,470 --> 00:44:14,137 (gentle music) 975 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,580 Kerry: And you eventually were on the most wanted list. 976 00:44:26,580 --> 00:44:28,270 -: Right. -: How did your family, 977 00:44:28,270 --> 00:44:31,140 I'm thinking of your father in particular, 978 00:44:31,140 --> 00:44:32,670 how did he react? 979 00:44:32,670 --> 00:44:34,464 -: When I was in prison, 980 00:44:34,464 --> 00:44:36,514 I think he came once or twice with my mom 981 00:44:37,350 --> 00:44:40,000 and then he came one time by himself. 982 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,523 -: Right, and how did that go? 983 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:46,450 -: I mean, it didn't... 984 00:44:49,110 --> 00:44:52,463 I would say it went well. 985 00:44:54,730 --> 00:44:59,460 When he walked in, I immediately thought my mom had died. 986 00:44:59,460 --> 00:45:00,920 He'd never come by himself. 987 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:02,150 So why would you come by yourself? 988 00:45:02,150 --> 00:45:04,700 Like my mother dragged him down there before. 989 00:45:04,700 --> 00:45:06,530 So he walked in and he sat down 990 00:45:06,530 --> 00:45:09,200 and he said, "Oh, it's okay. 991 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:10,980 Your mom's fine, she's fine." 992 00:45:10,980 --> 00:45:12,610 He said, "I just wanted to come down and talk to you." 993 00:45:12,610 --> 00:45:15,470 And he just said... 994 00:45:16,917 --> 00:45:17,810 We just talked. 995 00:45:17,810 --> 00:45:18,643 He said... 996 00:45:21,530 --> 00:45:22,930 I mean, we just talked 997 00:45:25,429 --> 00:45:27,320 -: Did you feel that you made peace with him then 998 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:28,483 before he died? 999 00:45:31,990 --> 00:45:35,967 -: I had my outdate for prison, 1000 00:45:35,967 --> 00:45:37,923 I was gonna be released in 2030, 1001 00:45:39,950 --> 00:45:41,680 and I didn't have any chance 1002 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:43,560 that I was gonna get it reduced. 1003 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,545 He said, "You're going to be okay. 1004 00:45:45,545 --> 00:45:47,500 You'll get out of here." 1005 00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:49,734 I was like, "Yeah, in 2030," 1006 00:45:49,734 --> 00:45:51,320 I said, "I'll probably die in here." 1007 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:52,380 And he said, "No, no." 1008 00:45:52,380 --> 00:45:55,300 He said, "You're smart and you're clever, 1009 00:45:55,300 --> 00:45:57,800 and you're going to figure a way out." 1010 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:02,697 And I just remember thinking, "You're fucking delusional." 1011 00:46:08,820 --> 00:46:11,467 He just said he was proud of me. 1012 00:46:12,301 --> 00:46:14,523 And that-- -: Had he said that before? 1013 00:46:17,660 --> 00:46:20,770 -: I don't know if he's ever said it before, 1014 00:46:20,770 --> 00:46:24,253 but it was it just felt like a slap in the face. 1015 00:46:25,585 --> 00:46:27,390 -: It felt like a slap in the face? 1016 00:46:27,390 --> 00:46:30,440 -: Because I had done so many things 1017 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,930 and I had seen it and felt like he was proud of me, 1018 00:46:33,930 --> 00:46:38,930 but this time, you know, I was in federal prison. 1019 00:46:39,700 --> 00:46:44,700 Like I'm in federal prison doing 26 years 1020 00:46:44,990 --> 00:46:48,410 for something that I'm 100% guilty of, 1021 00:46:48,410 --> 00:46:50,123 and now you're proud of me. 1022 00:46:51,170 --> 00:46:52,530 Like, you know-- 1023 00:46:52,530 --> 00:46:55,640 -: Why couldn't you be that back in the day 1024 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:57,564 when I needed you to be that. -: Right! 1025 00:46:57,564 --> 00:46:59,360 When I wanted to be an artist, 1026 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,130 wasn't fucking proud of me. 1027 00:47:01,130 --> 00:47:02,130 When I wanted to, you know, 1028 00:47:02,130 --> 00:47:04,680 there were so many things along the way 1029 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,960 that he could have showed some interest 1030 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,283 or pride in and he never did. 1031 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,324 I end up in fucking prison, now you're proud of me. 1032 00:47:14,324 --> 00:47:16,074 I mean the guy, he was just a dick. 1033 00:47:24,710 --> 00:47:27,351 -: That drive to impress his father 1034 00:47:27,351 --> 00:47:29,770 and to be able to so singularly focus 1035 00:47:30,830 --> 00:47:34,110 and be able to work systematically down the line 1036 00:47:34,110 --> 00:47:37,363 and keep it all in his head at the same time, 1037 00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:41,290 I think was really impressive. 1038 00:47:41,290 --> 00:47:44,240 And then trying to appeal to his father. 1039 00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:48,980 -: If he were this huge psychopath 1040 00:47:48,980 --> 00:47:52,140 that he's been portrayed as, 1041 00:47:52,140 --> 00:47:56,130 and actually he portrays himself as on occasions, 1042 00:47:56,130 --> 00:47:57,480 you would have expected 1043 00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,220 to find something unusual, wouldn't you? 1044 00:47:59,220 --> 00:48:00,070 And you didn't. 1045 00:48:00,070 --> 00:48:02,750 -: At least to find him not at the center would be a start. 1046 00:48:02,750 --> 00:48:03,740 And even that didn't happen. 1047 00:48:03,740 --> 00:48:05,760 -: So there was nothing that was going psychopath brain, 1048 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,540 psychopath brain, psychopath brain? 1049 00:48:07,540 --> 00:48:10,103 -: Neither in his brain, nor in his behavior. 1050 00:48:11,275 --> 00:48:13,942 (gentle music) 1051 00:48:16,420 --> 00:48:19,053 -: Hi. (gentle music) 1052 00:48:21,020 --> 00:48:22,660 -: So I ran tons of tests with you. 1053 00:48:22,660 --> 00:48:24,850 We spent hours running through enough tests. 1054 00:48:24,850 --> 00:48:27,620 There was nothing that kind of was separated 1055 00:48:27,620 --> 00:48:29,740 between what your brain does and what your behavior does. 1056 00:48:29,740 --> 00:48:30,990 There was a perfect alignment 1057 00:48:30,990 --> 00:48:34,281 between what you said about your brain, so to speak, said. 1058 00:48:34,281 --> 00:48:36,220 -: I mean, I'm okay with that. 1059 00:48:36,220 --> 00:48:39,520 I don't think anything's gonna change my behavior 1060 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,963 or alter, you know, my perception of myself. 1061 00:48:44,410 --> 00:48:46,350 -: No, I don't think so either. 1062 00:48:46,350 --> 00:48:50,090 And we noticed that you don't fully appreciate 1063 00:48:50,090 --> 00:48:52,207 the impact that you've had on other people 1064 00:48:52,207 --> 00:48:55,170 and the havoc that you've wrecked in other people's lives 1065 00:48:55,170 --> 00:48:59,270 in terms of your fraudulent behavior. 1066 00:48:59,270 --> 00:49:03,050 You conned institutions, banks, 1067 00:49:03,050 --> 00:49:06,610 so you don't really think about individual victims. 1068 00:49:06,610 --> 00:49:08,890 -: There are more and more stories 1069 00:49:08,890 --> 00:49:10,960 about what's called the brain defense. 1070 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,010 People who do something bad and then they go to court 1071 00:49:14,010 --> 00:49:17,760 and their defense is "it's not me, it's my brain." 1072 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,100 Would you characterize yourself in any way 1073 00:49:20,100 --> 00:49:21,300 as like someone who-- 1074 00:49:21,300 --> 00:49:23,230 -: I wouldn't try and use that as a defense. 1075 00:49:23,230 --> 00:49:27,190 -: It's interesting that nothing has come back 1076 00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:32,190 that says, "Wow, this guy has a psychopathic brain." 1077 00:49:33,650 --> 00:49:36,210 Yes, you love cons. 1078 00:49:36,210 --> 00:49:37,210 It's easy isn't it, 1079 00:49:37,210 --> 00:49:41,970 to go with the mega psycho responses 1080 00:49:41,970 --> 00:49:43,743 because you get a reaction out of people. 1081 00:49:43,743 --> 00:49:46,160 -: It's a shock value and it's what you know, 1082 00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,250 and people want to hear that and I'm good with it. 1083 00:49:49,250 --> 00:49:51,490 -: So you'd rather hear that, psychopath, 1084 00:49:51,490 --> 00:49:55,330 than really smart guy who cut some corners and fraudulent, 1085 00:49:55,330 --> 00:49:56,550 and got some money. 1086 00:49:56,550 --> 00:49:58,470 -: Yeah, there's lots of those guys, yeah. 1087 00:49:58,470 --> 00:50:01,120 -: So psychopath has gotten panache to you? 1088 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,723 -: Yeah. (gentle music) 1089 00:50:05,700 --> 00:50:09,440 -: I think that you've got some incredible skills. 1090 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,120 You're incredibly creative. 1091 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,520 When they're mixed with more pleasant characteristics, 1092 00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:19,520 such as humility, put you in a sweet spot for success. 1093 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:21,990 Does that make sense? -: Right. 1094 00:50:23,202 --> 00:50:25,869 (gentle music) 1095 00:50:29,597 --> 00:50:32,120 -: It was a pleasure. -: All right, nice meeting you. 1096 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,077 -: Take care, nice to meet you. 1097 00:50:34,077 --> 00:50:36,500 (gentle music) 1098 00:50:36,500 --> 00:50:39,810 -: This was interesting. (gentle music) 1099 00:50:39,810 --> 00:50:41,810 -: Safe journey back. -: Thanks, you too. 1100 00:50:42,946 --> 00:50:45,529 (gentle music) 1101 00:50:49,236 --> 00:50:51,736 (tense music) 1102 00:51:15,204 --> 00:51:17,787 (bright music)