1 00:00:00,238 --> 00:00:05,238 (waves crashing) (contemplative music) 2 00:00:19,270 --> 00:00:22,163 Narrator: What happens in the mind of con artists? 3 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,530 What makes their brain so well-equipped 4 00:00:26,530 --> 00:00:28,163 for psychological trickery? 5 00:00:30,620 --> 00:00:35,620 Is it greed, a lack of empathy, loose morals? 6 00:00:39,110 --> 00:00:43,173 Whatever it is, we are fascinated by con artists. 7 00:00:45,352 --> 00:00:49,435 (contemplative orchestral music) 8 00:01:02,208 --> 00:01:03,520 Announcer: Go back to the story now 9 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,580 that's shrinking the hedge fund industry. 10 00:01:05,580 --> 00:01:06,960 And this time, it's in Germany. 11 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:08,530 Announcer: Hedge fund manager, Helmut Kiener, 12 00:01:08,530 --> 00:01:09,920 founder of K1 Group, 13 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,070 caused one of the biggest financial scandals 14 00:01:12,070 --> 00:01:13,090 in German history. 15 00:01:13,090 --> 00:01:14,860 Announcer: He embezzled $400 million 16 00:01:14,860 --> 00:01:17,200 by running a classic Ponzi scheme. 17 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,000 Barclays Bank may have lost nearly $220 million 18 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:26,000 and about 5,000 private investors lost about $141 million. 19 00:01:26,030 --> 00:01:27,990 Announcer: He would fly to work in a private jet 20 00:01:27,990 --> 00:01:31,270 and he owned a $23 million beachfront home in Florida. 21 00:01:31,270 --> 00:01:33,630 Announcer: Kiener is described as an inconspicuous man 22 00:01:33,630 --> 00:01:35,950 who maintained any premeditated wrongdoing. 23 00:01:35,950 --> 00:01:37,740 Announcer: He was charged with fraud, 24 00:01:37,740 --> 00:01:40,480 forgery of documents, and tax evasion. 25 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:42,410 Announcer: Kiener was sentenced to 10 years 26 00:01:42,410 --> 00:01:44,107 and eight months in prison. 27 00:02:00,630 --> 00:02:03,300 Narrator: We've all been lied to. 28 00:02:03,300 --> 00:02:05,270 We've all been offered something 29 00:02:05,270 --> 00:02:08,040 that is just too good to be true, 30 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,200 and still, we fell for it. 31 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,190 Although we love a good con, 32 00:02:13,190 --> 00:02:16,190 we hate it when it happens to us. 33 00:02:16,190 --> 00:02:19,300 To find out how to resist the manipulation, 34 00:02:19,300 --> 00:02:22,090 we invited some of the greatest con artists 35 00:02:22,090 --> 00:02:24,040 to our institute. 36 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,170 Together, with a team of experts, 37 00:02:26,170 --> 00:02:28,610 we are going to analyze their stories, 38 00:02:28,610 --> 00:02:29,860 pick their brains, 39 00:02:29,860 --> 00:02:32,723 and reveal what their body language tells us. 40 00:02:34,010 --> 00:02:36,053 Welcome to the institute. 41 00:02:40,220 --> 00:02:41,830 -: Hello, Mr. Kiener. -: Hello. 42 00:02:41,830 --> 00:02:44,750 -: How was your trip? -: Very nice, thank you. 43 00:02:44,750 --> 00:02:45,940 -: Good to have you here. 44 00:02:45,940 --> 00:02:46,970 They're waiting. 45 00:02:46,970 --> 00:02:47,803 -: Okay. 46 00:02:47,803 --> 00:02:48,636 -: Shall we? 47 00:02:48,636 --> 00:02:49,469 -: Yes. 48 00:02:50,930 --> 00:02:52,180 -: Hello. 49 00:02:52,180 --> 00:02:53,013 Mr. Kiener, come in. 50 00:02:53,013 --> 00:02:53,846 Welcome. 51 00:02:53,846 --> 00:02:54,850 -: Nice to meet you. 52 00:02:54,850 --> 00:02:56,020 -: Nice to meet you too. 53 00:02:56,020 --> 00:02:57,120 Can I call you Helmut? 54 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:58,170 -: Yes, definitely. 55 00:02:58,170 --> 00:02:59,003 -: Thank you. 56 00:02:59,003 --> 00:02:59,836 I'm Kerry. 57 00:02:59,836 --> 00:03:01,090 I'm Kerry Daynes. 58 00:03:01,090 --> 00:03:04,480 I am a consultant forensic psychologist. 59 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,230 And this is Mark Frank, 60 00:03:06,230 --> 00:03:08,770 and he's a Professor of Behavioral Science. 61 00:03:08,770 --> 00:03:11,580 -: We're interested in what is going on inside the mind 62 00:03:11,580 --> 00:03:14,470 and how it manifests on the outside of the body. 63 00:03:14,470 --> 00:03:17,300 What this may tell us about the con, 64 00:03:17,300 --> 00:03:19,540 but also what the con may tell us 65 00:03:19,540 --> 00:03:21,770 about human behavior in general. 66 00:03:21,770 --> 00:03:22,947 -: And this is Moran Cerf, 67 00:03:22,947 --> 00:03:25,410 and he is a Professor of Neuroscience. 68 00:03:25,410 --> 00:03:27,950 Moran: In many ways, you're the perfect subject. 69 00:03:27,950 --> 00:03:28,783 -: Okay. 70 00:03:28,783 --> 00:03:29,616 -: I mean, Kerry told you 71 00:03:29,616 --> 00:03:30,930 that I'm a Professor of Neuroscience, 72 00:03:30,930 --> 00:03:32,570 but I actually also have a position 73 00:03:32,570 --> 00:03:33,877 as a Professor of Business. 74 00:03:33,877 --> 00:03:37,650 And I teach people marketing research, and finance, 75 00:03:37,650 --> 00:03:38,870 and a lot of things that you're an expert. 76 00:03:38,870 --> 00:03:40,420 So I really try to dig into the numbers, 77 00:03:40,420 --> 00:03:41,710 and understand how you did what you did, 78 00:03:41,710 --> 00:03:43,800 and how you cooked the numbers, 79 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:45,560 and who actually has different ways of thinking. 80 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:46,550 You're ideal. 81 00:03:46,550 --> 00:03:48,150 I can't wait for the time together. 82 00:03:48,150 --> 00:03:50,060 -: Okay, nice to hear that, yeah. 83 00:03:50,060 --> 00:03:53,240 -: You were behind the largest case 84 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,700 of hedge fund fraud in German history. 85 00:03:56,700 --> 00:03:58,410 -: Yes, they said, yeah. 86 00:03:58,410 --> 00:03:59,620 -: That's what they say. 87 00:03:59,620 --> 00:04:03,090 And you were convicted of running a Ponzi scheme 88 00:04:03,090 --> 00:04:06,463 worth $370 million. 89 00:04:07,300 --> 00:04:09,737 But actually, at its height, 90 00:04:09,737 --> 00:04:14,600 the whole fund was worth, I believe, $2.7 billion. 91 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,170 -: Correct, yes. 92 00:04:16,170 --> 00:04:20,304 -: And Barclays Bank alone invested $1.1 billion 93 00:04:20,304 --> 00:04:22,130 into the fund. -: Correct, yeah. 94 00:04:22,130 --> 00:04:24,110 -: But also, you were able to persuade 95 00:04:24,110 --> 00:04:27,243 10,000 smaller investors. 96 00:04:27,243 --> 00:04:29,440 -: Not myself, but my intermediaries I worked with. 97 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,280 -: Your team, your intermediaries who lost their money. 98 00:04:32,280 --> 00:04:35,870 So it had a huge impact on an awful lot of people's lives. 99 00:04:35,870 --> 00:04:37,350 -: Yes, correct, yeah. 100 00:04:37,350 --> 00:04:41,540 -: Well, what I should point out is we're not your doctors 101 00:04:41,540 --> 00:04:44,820 and we're not here to diagnose you certainly. 102 00:04:44,820 --> 00:04:46,870 We're not here to offer therapy. 103 00:04:46,870 --> 00:04:51,210 We're just here to try and understand you better. 104 00:04:51,210 --> 00:04:54,410 You've got some time now to settle into the institute, 105 00:04:54,410 --> 00:04:56,330 enjoy yourself, have something to eat. 106 00:04:56,330 --> 00:04:58,620 So please go and make yourself at home. 107 00:04:58,620 --> 00:04:59,691 -: Okay, thank you so much. 108 00:04:59,691 --> 00:05:01,466 -: Thank you. 109 00:05:01,466 --> 00:05:05,549 (contemplative orchestral music) 110 00:05:19,947 --> 00:05:21,170 Hello. -: Hello. 111 00:05:21,170 --> 00:05:22,970 Kerry: Sorry, have you been waiting long? 112 00:05:22,970 --> 00:05:25,310 -: No, not that long. -: Good, good. 113 00:05:25,310 --> 00:05:27,730 I'm really looking forward to talking to you. 114 00:05:27,730 --> 00:05:29,820 So if it's okay with you, 115 00:05:29,820 --> 00:05:31,720 I'd like to start with your childhood. 116 00:05:34,620 --> 00:05:36,340 -: We had a grocery store 117 00:05:36,340 --> 00:05:39,660 where my mother ran the grocery store. 118 00:05:39,660 --> 00:05:44,660 My father was working self-employed as a carpenter. 119 00:05:44,670 --> 00:05:46,450 They were not millionaires, 120 00:05:46,450 --> 00:05:50,610 but they had enough money available to give me everything, 121 00:05:50,610 --> 00:05:52,253 all toys I wanted to have. 122 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:55,910 I always had enough money as a child 123 00:05:55,910 --> 00:05:58,023 and money had no value for me. 124 00:06:00,250 --> 00:06:01,793 So my grandparents, 125 00:06:02,627 --> 00:06:04,550 they were very religious 126 00:06:04,550 --> 00:06:09,403 and they influenced me to get also quite religious. 127 00:06:12,456 --> 00:06:14,200 When I was five years old, 128 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,230 I said, I want to be a priest. 129 00:06:16,230 --> 00:06:18,450 And everybody took it serious there. 130 00:06:18,450 --> 00:06:20,820 Look at him, you see a future priest, 131 00:06:20,820 --> 00:06:22,793 maybe the future Pope here, you know? 132 00:06:23,660 --> 00:06:24,833 Everybody liked it. 133 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,010 -: So what was it that made you change your mind 134 00:06:33,010 --> 00:06:35,640 and opt for a career in the business world? 135 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:37,420 -: When I finished my university, 136 00:06:37,420 --> 00:06:40,850 I bought a house quite soon, you know, 137 00:06:40,850 --> 00:06:43,300 and had a big loan to pay. 138 00:06:43,300 --> 00:06:45,050 And then I looked in the newspapers 139 00:06:45,050 --> 00:06:47,760 and I realized there are some investments 140 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,640 where you just invest the money, 141 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,610 invest 10,000 and make 10,000 every few months, 142 00:06:53,610 --> 00:06:55,560 so your problem is solved. 143 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,450 -: You make it sound very easy. 144 00:06:57,450 --> 00:06:59,200 -: It was just a coincidence, you know. 145 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:00,033 It was just luck. 146 00:07:00,033 --> 00:07:01,660 And I was lucky at the time. 147 00:07:01,660 --> 00:07:03,490 And I said, oh, this is very good. 148 00:07:03,490 --> 00:07:05,690 I can make a lot of money in this industry. 149 00:07:05,690 --> 00:07:07,760 At first, it was quite volatile, 150 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:12,650 but all in all, after a few months, 151 00:07:12,650 --> 00:07:15,810 I could double my money, something like this, you know? 152 00:07:15,810 --> 00:07:18,360 -: And were you very competitive? 153 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,540 Were you always chasing the next big investment? 154 00:07:21,540 --> 00:07:23,600 How were you? 155 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:24,760 -: Yes, I was aggressive. 156 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,280 And at that time, I thought when I have even more money, 157 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,740 I could even could make more money. 158 00:07:30,740 --> 00:07:33,900 And that's why I started advertising in newspapers, 159 00:07:33,900 --> 00:07:38,850 maybe some 20 advertisements looking for intermediaries. 160 00:07:38,850 --> 00:07:42,600 And out of these intermediaries, 161 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,403 the whole system developed. 162 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,690 And I thought, yeah, higher, bigger, faster, more money. 163 00:07:51,690 --> 00:07:52,723 Everything, more. 164 00:07:57,820 --> 00:07:59,960 Narrator: Helmut Kiener collects his money through a fund 165 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:03,130 with the simple name K1 Kiener one. 166 00:08:03,130 --> 00:08:05,410 Because he was banned from doing business in Germany, 167 00:08:05,410 --> 00:08:08,320 he moved the fund to the British Virgin Islands. 168 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,790 Keener promised more than 10% returns 169 00:08:10,790 --> 00:08:13,437 and thus wins more than 5,000 investors 170 00:08:13,437 --> 00:08:17,566 and also large international banks as customers. 171 00:08:17,566 --> 00:08:21,649 (contemplative orchestral music) 172 00:08:34,772 --> 00:08:37,800 -: Did you enjoy all of the aspects of religion 173 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:38,870 that you were exposed to 174 00:08:38,870 --> 00:08:42,030 or did any of them cause you any difficulties? 175 00:08:42,030 --> 00:08:44,520 -: I didn't enjoy it that much, you know? 176 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:45,353 -: No. 177 00:08:45,353 --> 00:08:46,610 So it was something that you felt 178 00:08:46,610 --> 00:08:49,350 was imposed on you a little? 179 00:08:49,350 --> 00:08:50,183 -: Yes, correct. 180 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,860 -: So what process do you have to go through in your own mind 181 00:09:01,860 --> 00:09:05,863 to reconcile that with your actions? 182 00:09:09,630 --> 00:09:12,820 -: Yeah, it was just a big fault, you know? 183 00:09:12,820 --> 00:09:16,620 And everybody makes mistakes and faults. 184 00:09:16,620 --> 00:09:17,453 I can't change it, 185 00:09:17,453 --> 00:09:20,430 I would make it different differently now. 186 00:09:20,430 --> 00:09:22,930 But in hindsight, I cannot change it anymore. 187 00:09:22,930 --> 00:09:27,393 So why worry about things that I cannot change, you know? 188 00:09:28,540 --> 00:09:30,390 -: How important is winning to you? 189 00:09:30,390 --> 00:09:33,130 -: Yeah, it was very important at the time for me. 190 00:09:33,130 --> 00:09:34,120 Yeah, I wanted to win. 191 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:35,870 I wanted to be the best. 192 00:09:35,870 --> 00:09:39,690 I wanted to raise more money than others, you know? 193 00:09:39,690 --> 00:09:41,370 -: Isn't it the case that your business jet 194 00:09:41,370 --> 00:09:43,793 was faster than Donald Trump's business jet? 195 00:09:45,434 --> 00:09:48,494 -: It has a longer range. 196 00:09:48,494 --> 00:09:50,520 It made it to Germany 197 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,730 and his wouldn't have made it to Germany. 198 00:09:52,730 --> 00:09:56,270 His jet would only have made it to LA, you know? 199 00:09:56,270 --> 00:09:58,330 I always said, when you have your own jet, 200 00:09:58,330 --> 00:09:59,710 you have made it in life. 201 00:09:59,710 --> 00:10:02,227 Otherwise, at that time, you haven't made it. 202 00:10:02,227 --> 00:10:05,144 (upbeat pop music) 203 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,690 Bigger, faster, more money. 204 00:10:24,690 --> 00:10:27,363 I was very determined. 205 00:10:28,660 --> 00:10:30,800 -: So his legs are a little bit wider, 206 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,730 which actually often suggests dominance. 207 00:10:32,730 --> 00:10:36,390 When dominance, in charge, you take up space. 208 00:10:36,390 --> 00:10:37,960 People are worried, submissive, 209 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:39,260 they don't take up space. 210 00:10:39,260 --> 00:10:41,330 They stay within the contours of their body. 211 00:10:41,330 --> 00:10:42,743 The elbows are in and so on. 212 00:10:42,743 --> 00:10:45,310 -: It's very much an alpha male thing as well, isn't it? 213 00:10:45,310 --> 00:10:47,350 -: Yeah, the manspread, as they say. 214 00:10:47,350 --> 00:10:48,940 But then with a little bit, you know, 215 00:10:48,940 --> 00:10:51,960 he looks a little relaxed with the hands there, 216 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,040 but they were twittering the thumbs a little bit. 217 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:55,550 So he's still burning off 218 00:10:55,550 --> 00:10:57,670 a little bit of anxiety throughout that. 219 00:10:57,670 --> 00:10:58,800 And his head is up. 220 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,030 That is also part of the dominance. 221 00:11:01,030 --> 00:11:04,580 So even though you're seeing little signs of worry 222 00:11:04,580 --> 00:11:05,690 about what he's going to say, 223 00:11:05,690 --> 00:11:07,000 but he's saying in a way, 224 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,083 sitting in a way that says he's still in charge here. 225 00:11:20,150 --> 00:11:21,849 -: You're gonna see a balloon. 226 00:11:21,849 --> 00:11:23,800 And every step of the way, 227 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,260 you can press this button by clicking 228 00:11:26,260 --> 00:11:28,096 and then it will inflate the balloon. 229 00:11:28,096 --> 00:11:29,680 So the balloon is gonna get bigger. 230 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:32,110 As it gets bigger, you earn five cents every time. 231 00:11:32,110 --> 00:11:34,030 -: But it can blow up and then I get nothing. 232 00:11:34,030 --> 00:11:35,727 -: Exactly right. -: Obviously. 233 00:11:35,727 --> 00:11:37,727 -: So this is the button. 234 00:11:38,922 --> 00:11:41,755 (balloon hissing) 235 00:11:59,637 --> 00:12:01,550 -: People usually take risks, 236 00:12:01,550 --> 00:12:03,100 but when something bad happens, 237 00:12:03,100 --> 00:12:04,300 they stop taking risk. 238 00:12:04,300 --> 00:12:06,600 That's kind of a behavior that you can expect. 239 00:12:09,617 --> 00:12:10,560 If you look at the con artist, 240 00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:12,090 we can have them play the same game 241 00:12:12,090 --> 00:12:14,530 and we can both see behaviorally what they did. 242 00:12:14,530 --> 00:12:16,710 Did they take a risk or did they not take the risk? 243 00:12:16,710 --> 00:12:17,880 And when they did take the risk, 244 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:18,713 we can look at their brain 245 00:12:18,713 --> 00:12:21,600 and see this part that we expect to be active, 246 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,120 was it more active or less active? 247 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:25,450 Was it responding in any way 248 00:12:25,450 --> 00:12:27,750 in a different pattern that can tell me, 249 00:12:27,750 --> 00:12:29,993 these guys think of risk differently. 250 00:12:39,540 --> 00:12:40,572 That's it. 251 00:12:40,572 --> 00:12:41,405 -: Okay. 252 00:12:41,405 --> 00:12:42,620 -: I think you got the most amount of money 253 00:12:42,620 --> 00:12:43,740 in the game that I've seen. 254 00:12:43,740 --> 00:12:45,480 I'm not sure if it's because you were lucky 255 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,540 or because you took a bigger risk 256 00:12:47,540 --> 00:12:48,650 or you somehow rigged the game 257 00:12:48,650 --> 00:12:51,370 and found a way to have a good tactic. 258 00:12:51,370 --> 00:12:52,410 Do you have an answer? 259 00:12:52,410 --> 00:12:53,243 -: Yes. 260 00:12:53,243 --> 00:12:56,710 I realized that that the game wanted to influence me 261 00:12:56,710 --> 00:12:59,400 when it crashed earlier maybe. 262 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,970 The game wants me to manipulate in that sense 263 00:13:02,970 --> 00:13:06,851 that when it crashed earlier, 264 00:13:06,851 --> 00:13:08,860 I stopped earlier, 265 00:13:08,860 --> 00:13:12,480 but I thought that the game just wants to manipulate me, 266 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,410 I go up, more up, you know? 267 00:13:16,410 --> 00:13:18,040 -: Well, people like risk takers 268 00:13:18,910 --> 00:13:21,050 and I sorta like risk takers too. 269 00:13:21,050 --> 00:13:23,280 And these are like the ultimate risk takers. 270 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,140 It enables them to really do things 271 00:13:25,140 --> 00:13:26,610 that most of us on our worst day 272 00:13:26,610 --> 00:13:29,360 could not imagine trying to perpetrate. 273 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,660 And you know, so that makes it attractive. 274 00:13:31,660 --> 00:13:34,460 -: To be fair, I'm having a hard time 275 00:13:34,460 --> 00:13:37,280 'cause he represents to me all the things I don't like. 276 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,290 He is my former students gone wrong. 277 00:13:40,290 --> 00:13:41,720 Like I teach my students all the time 278 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,680 how to not become manipulative when they go to Wall Street, 279 00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:45,630 which they do, 280 00:13:45,630 --> 00:13:47,480 how to try to make the world a better place. 281 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,360 And the image that I hate is that image 282 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:52,300 that they're going to look up to 283 00:13:52,300 --> 00:13:53,133 and someone tells them, 284 00:13:53,133 --> 00:13:54,130 you're gonna get a big plane 285 00:13:54,130 --> 00:13:56,960 and you're gonna get a luxurious life 286 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:58,260 because it's tempting. 287 00:13:58,260 --> 00:14:00,840 And it's like seeing the guy who won the lottery 288 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,240 and thinking, oh, I can win the lottery, 289 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:03,522 which we know is a mistake. 290 00:14:03,522 --> 00:14:05,720 -: But you sometimes have to pull yourself back. 291 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,570 I have a little off switch on myself. 292 00:14:07,570 --> 00:14:09,350 If somebody's starting to pull me emotionally, 293 00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:11,060 there's sort of a circuit breaker kicks in. 294 00:14:11,060 --> 00:14:12,690 I go, okay, hang on. 295 00:14:12,690 --> 00:14:13,523 He has a label. 296 00:14:13,523 --> 00:14:14,700 We know who he is. 297 00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:15,730 We know his past. 298 00:14:15,730 --> 00:14:18,510 -: He's the Wolf of Wall Street, isn't he, archetype, 299 00:14:18,510 --> 00:14:20,133 and it's hard to warm to it. 300 00:14:21,771 --> 00:14:25,854 (contemplative orchestral music) 301 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,546 The con artist has to overcome 302 00:14:36,546 --> 00:14:41,200 any of their own objections to what they know 303 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,940 they know is criminal behavior. 304 00:14:43,940 --> 00:14:46,250 So it's wrong. 305 00:14:46,250 --> 00:14:49,570 It's legally wrong and also it's morally wrong. 306 00:14:49,570 --> 00:14:51,560 So how do they do that? 307 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,170 Well, what they do is they lie to themselves. 308 00:14:54,170 --> 00:14:57,730 They distort their thinking processes. 309 00:14:57,730 --> 00:14:59,390 And quite often, what they can do is 310 00:14:59,390 --> 00:15:01,320 they can throw themselves into a state 311 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,400 of what we call cognitive dissonance. 312 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:08,500 And that's where you have two completely contradictory 313 00:15:08,500 --> 00:15:12,210 sets of thoughts, attitudes, and beliefs. 314 00:15:12,210 --> 00:15:16,930 And what you try to do is you try to reconcile them, 315 00:15:16,930 --> 00:15:18,860 which is very difficult to do. 316 00:15:18,860 --> 00:15:22,730 Or you simply compartmentalize, 317 00:15:22,730 --> 00:15:26,940 box off one set of thoughts, attitudes, and beliefs, 318 00:15:26,940 --> 00:15:29,563 and go with the other while it suits you. 319 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,690 In 2008, we had the global financial crisis. 320 00:15:39,690 --> 00:15:41,523 So how did that impact you? 321 00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:43,870 -: It was a period. 322 00:15:43,870 --> 00:15:45,023 It was not one day. 323 00:15:46,370 --> 00:15:48,270 I thought, it must be recovered 324 00:15:48,270 --> 00:15:49,770 because it recovered all the time, 325 00:15:49,770 --> 00:15:51,140 the last decade. 326 00:15:51,140 --> 00:15:53,020 This toxic papers, 327 00:15:53,020 --> 00:15:56,470 we had a lot of funds which showed that toxic papers. 328 00:15:56,470 --> 00:15:59,920 They were degrading in value every week and every week 329 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,693 and it was like an infection, you know, like a virus. 330 00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:07,807 Every hedge fund after the other collapsed. 331 00:16:07,807 --> 00:16:09,497 Announcer: Employees without jobs left in droves. 332 00:16:09,497 --> 00:16:10,960 Helmut: And this was never seen before 333 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:11,970 in the hedge fund industry. 334 00:16:11,970 --> 00:16:12,803 Announcer: So how did one of the country's 335 00:16:12,803 --> 00:16:15,790 oldest investment banks end up in bankruptcy? 336 00:16:15,790 --> 00:16:18,570 Announcer: We never imagined this would happen. 337 00:16:18,570 --> 00:16:20,923 -: The world is drowning, the hedge fund world. 338 00:16:28,390 --> 00:16:32,400 -: So there was a point at which you had a choice to make, 339 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,350 which is you could have filed for bankruptcy. 340 00:16:36,350 --> 00:16:37,183 -: Yeah. 341 00:16:37,183 --> 00:16:42,030 -: But you chose instead to operate a fraudulent business. 342 00:16:42,030 --> 00:16:44,590 How did that switch occur in your mind? 343 00:16:44,590 --> 00:16:45,877 How did that happen? 344 00:16:49,295 --> 00:16:53,128 (contemplative ambient music) 345 00:17:03,566 --> 00:17:07,483 (speaking in foreign language) 346 00:17:35,330 --> 00:17:40,252 -: At that time in Germany, every family had violence 347 00:17:40,252 --> 00:17:45,252 in terms of that the parents beated the children 348 00:17:45,430 --> 00:17:47,070 on some occasions, you know? 349 00:17:47,070 --> 00:17:49,350 Sometimes, it was just small things, you know? 350 00:17:49,350 --> 00:17:50,670 It was not important things. 351 00:17:50,670 --> 00:17:52,960 And my father was working very hard. 352 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,803 And when he was so stressed, he got aggressive. 353 00:18:02,110 --> 00:18:03,000 I'm coming in. 354 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:04,860 My father's behind the door 355 00:18:04,860 --> 00:18:06,730 because I was running away, yeah? 356 00:18:06,730 --> 00:18:10,500 Then I'm coming back and he's behind the door. 357 00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:11,870 And once I entered the room, 358 00:18:11,870 --> 00:18:16,870 he jumps on me behind the door and was beating me. 359 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,333 This was a shock for me, you know? 360 00:18:20,333 --> 00:18:24,420 I was so shocked to know when he did this. 361 00:18:24,420 --> 00:18:27,010 He thought he's luring me behind the door. 362 00:18:27,010 --> 00:18:28,063 It's my father. 363 00:18:29,101 --> 00:18:31,980 I'm a child, he's a man. 364 00:18:31,980 --> 00:18:33,940 And this was hard for me, you know? 365 00:18:33,940 --> 00:18:35,400 He always said, "Don't cry. 366 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,300 Otherwise, I beat you more," you know? 367 00:18:49,430 --> 00:18:51,950 Kerry: What would you have done differently in hindsight, 368 00:18:51,950 --> 00:18:53,850 of course, which is a wonderful thing? 369 00:18:57,690 --> 00:19:01,840 -: Yeah, I would just file bankruptcy with the funds 370 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,720 and said the funds are bankrupt, so it is. 371 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,160 -: Well, I can imagine that if you've got 12,000 people 372 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:08,970 that are all very, very angry with you, 373 00:19:08,970 --> 00:19:10,740 that is a huge amount of pressure. 374 00:19:10,740 --> 00:19:11,930 -: If I imagine to say them 375 00:19:11,930 --> 00:19:14,810 that the fund has a value of zero, 376 00:19:14,810 --> 00:19:18,804 they will come to me and basically kill me, 377 00:19:18,804 --> 00:19:21,320 not in a direct sense, 378 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,930 but basically coming and and blaming me a lot. 379 00:19:24,930 --> 00:19:29,332 And people would ask me, that can't be right, 380 00:19:29,332 --> 00:19:30,860 something must be wrong. 381 00:19:30,860 --> 00:19:33,396 And they're coming to me and asking me. 382 00:19:33,396 --> 00:19:36,670 The phone would have rang every day. 383 00:19:36,670 --> 00:19:38,280 I couldn't have dealt with this. 384 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:39,770 At least six months, 385 00:19:39,770 --> 00:19:41,700 I wouldn't have nothing else to do 386 00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:44,860 then explaining people what happened, 387 00:19:44,860 --> 00:19:46,650 what happened, what happened. 388 00:19:46,650 --> 00:19:47,943 -: You see a little stretch. 389 00:19:49,421 --> 00:19:53,400 That's the risorius muscle that you typically see with fear. 390 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,950 Maybe it's anticipatory fear of like, 391 00:19:55,950 --> 00:19:57,240 is Kerry gonna probe me? 392 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,710 Is she gonna make accusations of some sort? 393 00:19:59,710 --> 00:20:01,410 -: And there's the shrug. 394 00:20:01,410 --> 00:20:02,243 -: Yup. 395 00:20:02,243 --> 00:20:04,690 And again, the shrug is uncertainty. 396 00:20:04,690 --> 00:20:06,800 He knows why he's here, right? 397 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,670 He knows why he's in the institute and he knows his history. 398 00:20:09,670 --> 00:20:12,363 This is the reason he's here. 399 00:20:15,030 --> 00:20:17,250 -: Why didn't he just say, 400 00:20:17,250 --> 00:20:19,610 look, my investments are failing. 401 00:20:19,610 --> 00:20:21,990 It's a difficult financial crisis. 402 00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:24,500 You know, it's a difficult financial environment 403 00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:25,620 at the moment, 404 00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:27,820 and declare bankruptcy. 405 00:20:27,820 --> 00:20:30,360 I think it's because declaring bankruptcy 406 00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:33,070 would have felt too much like, 407 00:20:33,070 --> 00:20:35,170 oh my goodness, I'm weak here. 408 00:20:35,170 --> 00:20:36,170 I failed. 409 00:20:36,170 --> 00:20:39,976 And then he's back to being that young boy again 410 00:20:39,976 --> 00:20:43,603 who is punished for showing weakness. 411 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:48,750 He would be beaten. 412 00:20:48,750 --> 00:20:52,720 And if he cried, then he would be beaten all the more. 413 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,640 -: The assumption that at least deep inside our brain, 414 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,060 there's one truth and it's correct is false. 415 00:20:59,060 --> 00:21:00,180 That's not true. 416 00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:03,040 Our story keeps changing in our mind. 417 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:04,900 We lie to ourselves constantly, 418 00:21:04,900 --> 00:21:06,500 big lies and small lies. 419 00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:09,910 -: If there's no truth then, really, 420 00:21:09,910 --> 00:21:12,690 because our autobiographical memory 421 00:21:12,690 --> 00:21:16,600 is like a complex tapestry of information 422 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,930 that we've gathered from lots of different places 423 00:21:18,930 --> 00:21:21,820 plus genuine memories, 424 00:21:21,820 --> 00:21:25,870 can we ever really be fully true? 425 00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:29,860 -: That's one of the interesting quandaries 426 00:21:29,860 --> 00:21:31,550 I wrestle with when I think through 427 00:21:31,550 --> 00:21:33,610 in terms of thinking back through your own life, you know. 428 00:21:33,610 --> 00:21:35,840 To what extent are you putting a little bit in 429 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:36,890 to make yourself look better, 430 00:21:36,890 --> 00:21:38,290 and you kind of know that, 431 00:21:38,290 --> 00:21:40,567 and to what extent do you not know that 432 00:21:40,567 --> 00:21:43,248 and you're saying things that aren't true? 433 00:21:43,248 --> 00:21:47,331 (contemplative orchestral music) 434 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,740 Kerry: What was he trying to teach you, do you think? 435 00:21:51,740 --> 00:21:55,575 -: He wanted me to make a tough person, 436 00:21:55,575 --> 00:21:58,180 not crying like a kid. 437 00:21:58,180 --> 00:22:01,540 Crying is a sign of weakness. 438 00:22:01,540 --> 00:22:04,613 Stay strong, get strong, get invincible. 439 00:22:12,270 --> 00:22:14,650 -: You must have looked at Ponzi schemes 440 00:22:14,650 --> 00:22:16,580 and how Ponzi schemes operate, 441 00:22:16,580 --> 00:22:19,023 and thought, right, that's our new model. 442 00:22:20,180 --> 00:22:22,530 -: Yeah, we didn't regard ourselves as a Ponzi scheme. 443 00:22:22,530 --> 00:22:25,410 Maybe you can call it a modified Ponzi scheme, 444 00:22:25,410 --> 00:22:28,295 but I think it wasn't a real Ponzi scheme, you know? 445 00:22:28,295 --> 00:22:30,040 -: Well, what would you call it? 446 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,323 -: I would call it just cooking the books, you know? 447 00:22:35,060 --> 00:22:37,010 Not just, its evil enough, 448 00:22:37,010 --> 00:22:38,470 but cooking the books, you know? 449 00:22:38,470 --> 00:22:39,780 -: Well, yeah, but cooking the books, 450 00:22:39,780 --> 00:22:42,220 it's a nice euphemism. 451 00:22:42,220 --> 00:22:47,220 It makes it sound less serious than fraud. 452 00:22:50,170 --> 00:22:51,003 -: Yes. 453 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,910 -: You gave them false bank statements, didn't you? 454 00:22:57,910 --> 00:22:58,743 -: Yes. 455 00:22:58,743 --> 00:23:01,760 And it was so easy, so nobody said, 456 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,893 is the estimate right, or is this correct? 457 00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:07,330 Just give them estimates and I did, you know? 458 00:23:07,330 --> 00:23:10,780 They accepted every estimate I gave them 459 00:23:11,766 --> 00:23:13,140 and they never checked it. 460 00:23:13,140 --> 00:23:15,560 -: Do you hold them responsible? 461 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,910 -: They did not end up in jail like my guys, you know? 462 00:23:18,910 --> 00:23:21,150 -: But that's because their actions were fraudulent 463 00:23:21,150 --> 00:23:23,540 whereas you could say that Barclay's actions 464 00:23:23,540 --> 00:23:25,970 or investor's actions were negligent, 465 00:23:25,970 --> 00:23:27,813 not criminal or fraudulent. 466 00:23:32,340 --> 00:23:37,340 Were you struck by his optimism and invincible nature? 467 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,400 -: I wrote optimism bias. 468 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,140 -: If we take him at face value, 469 00:23:43,140 --> 00:23:48,140 he has just stumbled into this multi-million pound scheme. 470 00:23:48,221 --> 00:23:49,760 I'm not buying that. 471 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,150 I'm really not buying that. 472 00:23:51,150 --> 00:23:55,830 Underneath that friendly, avuncular exterior, 473 00:23:55,830 --> 00:23:59,260 he is really quite the aggressive, 474 00:23:59,260 --> 00:24:03,410 competitive with himself and with others businessman, 475 00:24:03,410 --> 00:24:04,243 isn't he, 476 00:24:04,243 --> 00:24:07,247 who I think gets really quite excited 477 00:24:07,247 --> 00:24:10,043 to cook the books, as he puts it. 478 00:24:19,090 --> 00:24:23,250 Moran: You come across kind of like a friendly uncle. 479 00:24:23,250 --> 00:24:24,190 Is a trick or it's a? 480 00:24:24,190 --> 00:24:26,320 -: No, it's just how I am. 481 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:27,153 So, sometimes, 482 00:24:27,153 --> 00:24:28,350 sometimes I had a meeting 483 00:24:28,350 --> 00:24:30,610 and I had to complete my exercise. 484 00:24:30,610 --> 00:24:33,079 I said, wait 30 minutes, 485 00:24:33,079 --> 00:24:36,335 came in my best suit and said, 486 00:24:36,335 --> 00:24:38,500 opened into this door, 487 00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:39,370 said, wait a minute, 488 00:24:39,370 --> 00:24:41,760 I have to complete my swimming, 30 minutes. 489 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,510 I'll be back, so wait here. 490 00:24:43,510 --> 00:24:44,910 -: But is it a tactic? 491 00:24:44,910 --> 00:24:45,743 It's like you know it-- 492 00:24:45,743 --> 00:24:48,460 -: No, I'm not playing games, you know? 493 00:24:48,460 --> 00:24:49,293 -: It doesn't make sense. 494 00:24:49,293 --> 00:24:52,493 -: It's not my character to play games and say, 495 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:56,520 or saying, 496 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,510 I'm just being like this just to get his money, you know? 497 00:25:00,510 --> 00:25:04,063 -: How do I get 12,000 people to give me $2,000 each? 498 00:25:05,550 --> 00:25:08,500 -: Yeah, I mean, this was a multilevel system, you know? 499 00:25:08,500 --> 00:25:11,380 Every intermediary earned from the other intermediary, 500 00:25:11,380 --> 00:25:13,120 from the other intermediate. 501 00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:15,120 And the good returns. 502 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:16,120 -: You're unique, right? 503 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:18,430 Like, there's something to you that, 504 00:25:18,430 --> 00:25:19,543 that's what we're trying to understand. 505 00:25:19,543 --> 00:25:21,163 -: I was also lucky, I tell you, 506 00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:23,607 other factors could have-- 507 00:25:23,607 --> 00:25:24,830 -: I'm not getting the right answer. 508 00:25:24,830 --> 00:25:26,463 -: Could have closed the funds. 509 00:25:26,463 --> 00:25:27,910 Well, what did you say? 510 00:25:27,910 --> 00:25:32,896 -: So the answers luck and the system are too simple. 511 00:25:32,896 --> 00:25:36,087 There must be something about you also. 512 00:25:43,110 --> 00:25:45,610 -: I was brought up Catholic as well. 513 00:25:45,610 --> 00:25:47,660 And when I think about my upbringing, 514 00:25:47,660 --> 00:25:49,610 I think that I spent a lot of time in church 515 00:25:49,610 --> 00:25:51,550 and a lot of time confessing for things 516 00:25:51,550 --> 00:25:53,210 that maybe I hadn't done. 517 00:25:53,210 --> 00:25:56,290 So we talk often about Catholic guilt, 518 00:25:56,290 --> 00:25:59,550 but do you think any of the teachings of the Catholic Church 519 00:25:59,550 --> 00:26:00,383 have stayed with you 520 00:26:00,383 --> 00:26:02,940 or any of the morality of the Catholic Church 521 00:26:02,940 --> 00:26:03,773 has stayed with you? 522 00:26:03,773 --> 00:26:04,606 -: Yeah, definitely, definitely. 523 00:26:04,606 --> 00:26:08,590 I mean, I didn't want to hurt anybody 524 00:26:08,590 --> 00:26:10,673 and make it right for everybody. 525 00:26:13,110 --> 00:26:15,320 I always regarded me as a humanist. 526 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,920 The Catholics are very humanistic orientated. 527 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,168 It helped me, but the praying. 528 00:26:22,168 --> 00:26:24,033 Sometimes when I was in there, 529 00:26:24,033 --> 00:26:27,520 I was even get close to phobia. 530 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,263 I thought, I gotta get out here. 531 00:26:29,263 --> 00:26:32,343 I can't swallow, I can't breathe. 532 00:26:32,343 --> 00:26:35,750 Not breathe, but I had to swallow, swallow, swallow. 533 00:26:35,750 --> 00:26:39,513 It was like claustrophobic situation. 534 00:26:40,650 --> 00:26:41,500 -: And here we go. 535 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:44,443 Go forward from here. 536 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:48,840 Normally, if you looked around his eyes, 537 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,320 if this was an enjoyment smile, 538 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,510 something caused by pleasure, 539 00:26:52,510 --> 00:26:55,580 you get the muscle around the eye that also activates 540 00:26:55,580 --> 00:26:57,430 called orbicularis oculi. 541 00:26:57,430 --> 00:26:58,680 And what you're seeing there 542 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,510 is actually almost a little bit of concentration. 543 00:27:01,510 --> 00:27:03,190 The eyebrows are down, 544 00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:05,160 but the muscles around the eyes are not. 545 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:06,150 And there's a term for it. 546 00:27:06,150 --> 00:27:07,500 It's called a masking smile. 547 00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:08,890 He smiles a lot. 548 00:27:08,890 --> 00:27:10,830 It gives him some credibility, 549 00:27:10,830 --> 00:27:13,123 makes him look very non-threatening, 550 00:27:14,020 --> 00:27:16,180 but he's using it in this particular instance 551 00:27:16,180 --> 00:27:19,250 to try to mask a little bit of that negative emotion, 552 00:27:19,250 --> 00:27:21,543 thinking back about his upbringing. 553 00:27:22,890 --> 00:27:24,008 -: How are you doing? 554 00:27:24,008 --> 00:27:25,180 -: I'm doing fine, thank you. 555 00:27:25,180 --> 00:27:28,270 -: I'm gonna get a bit closer so it will be less formal. 556 00:27:28,270 --> 00:27:31,767 I'm trying to understand if in your mind, 557 00:27:31,767 --> 00:27:34,520 you at some point said to yourself, 558 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,620 this is a crime that I'm doing fully. 559 00:27:36,620 --> 00:27:37,780 I'm conscious of that. 560 00:27:37,780 --> 00:27:39,570 I know that it's not okay. 561 00:27:39,570 --> 00:27:42,382 But throughout the (indistinct), 562 00:27:42,382 --> 00:27:43,410 you tell yourself, 563 00:27:43,410 --> 00:27:44,337 there's a way to get away with it 564 00:27:44,337 --> 00:27:46,340 and I can make it happen. 565 00:27:46,340 --> 00:27:49,090 -: I suppressed this that it might be a crime, you know? 566 00:27:50,013 --> 00:27:53,170 It was in my unconscious mind maybe, 567 00:27:53,170 --> 00:27:57,650 but I didn't say I stop a crime because in my mind, 568 00:28:03,270 --> 00:28:04,850 it was not a real crime, you know? 569 00:28:04,850 --> 00:28:05,683 -: Could you stop? 570 00:28:05,683 --> 00:28:06,516 Do you think you could have stopped 571 00:28:06,516 --> 00:28:09,810 or it was constantly addictive? 572 00:28:09,810 --> 00:28:10,760 -: Obviously, I couldn't stop. 573 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,611 Otherwise, I would have stopped, you know? 574 00:28:13,611 --> 00:28:15,490 And there were some Asian investors 575 00:28:15,490 --> 00:28:18,440 who promised hundreds of millions. 576 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,383 And if this money would have come, 577 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:24,940 it would have saved the funds probably, 578 00:28:24,940 --> 00:28:25,928 but it didn't come. 579 00:28:25,928 --> 00:28:26,847 You know? 580 00:28:26,847 --> 00:28:30,410 And I thought like a deterministic thinker, 581 00:28:30,410 --> 00:28:34,540 I thought I gonna be saved by anything or anybody 582 00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:37,673 maybe in the last minute. 583 00:28:51,519 --> 00:28:54,290 -: Well, I think his big lie to himself 584 00:28:54,290 --> 00:28:58,750 is that I would have turned that around, 585 00:28:58,750 --> 00:29:00,880 I would've paid those people back 586 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,750 had I just been given enough time 587 00:29:03,750 --> 00:29:05,810 and had I got that last investment. 588 00:29:05,810 --> 00:29:08,110 -: The ability to convince yourself 589 00:29:08,110 --> 00:29:11,310 that that's a viable option when the odds are so low 590 00:29:11,310 --> 00:29:13,460 often in many of these cases. 591 00:29:13,460 --> 00:29:15,960 -: One of the things that I struggle with sometimes 592 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,600 is that actually, 593 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:18,600 if you ask people 594 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,030 to take a more realistic view of themselves, 595 00:29:22,030 --> 00:29:27,030 that can be genuinely psychologically destroying 596 00:29:27,060 --> 00:29:28,530 and damaging. 597 00:29:28,530 --> 00:29:32,310 So actually, how much self-awareness 598 00:29:32,310 --> 00:29:37,310 and self-honesty is healthy? 599 00:29:37,824 --> 00:29:38,657 -: Right. 600 00:29:38,657 --> 00:29:39,490 -: But when you do that, 601 00:29:39,490 --> 00:29:43,270 you have to admit that you've really impacted people. 602 00:29:43,270 --> 00:29:44,850 You've hurt people. 603 00:29:44,850 --> 00:29:48,043 You've done damage to people that might be lifelong. 604 00:29:51,020 --> 00:29:52,950 What does that mean about you? 605 00:29:52,950 --> 00:29:54,517 What does that make you? 606 00:30:06,487 --> 00:30:11,203 Who do you consider the victims of your deception? 607 00:30:12,630 --> 00:30:14,560 -: Yeah, I can't think about them. 608 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,420 Otherwise, I get sad. 609 00:30:16,420 --> 00:30:19,250 But I can change it, 610 00:30:19,250 --> 00:30:21,203 so why should I always think about it? 611 00:30:22,050 --> 00:30:23,350 This doesn't help anybody. 612 00:30:26,855 --> 00:30:30,100 I thought about a lot when I was in jail at the time. 613 00:30:30,100 --> 00:30:32,683 I didn't have time to think about it. 614 00:30:37,744 --> 00:30:42,744 (boy whispering) (contemplative music) 615 00:31:04,180 --> 00:31:06,270 Announcer: Police are searching the sea for the gun 616 00:31:06,270 --> 00:31:08,130 with which an alleged German fraudster 617 00:31:08,130 --> 00:31:09,923 committed suicide on Saturday. 618 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,370 Helmut Kiener's managing director, Dieter Frerichs, 619 00:31:14,370 --> 00:31:17,473 killed himself in Spain before police could detain him. 620 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,233 Kerry: Your business partner took his own life. 621 00:31:27,270 --> 00:31:28,270 -: I said, 622 00:31:28,270 --> 00:31:33,270 I immediately was angry about the police hunting him down. 623 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,110 You know, I didn't let it on me. 624 00:31:38,110 --> 00:31:41,060 I said, it's really not my fault. 625 00:31:41,060 --> 00:31:42,520 The guy was innocent. 626 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,600 And if you hunt an innocent person 627 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:45,800 than the one who's guilty, 628 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,420 who hunts the innocent person, 629 00:31:47,420 --> 00:31:49,350 and not me, you know? 630 00:31:49,350 --> 00:31:51,540 Why should I be responsible 631 00:31:51,540 --> 00:31:55,600 that an innocent person is hunted 632 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,178 and pressed to suicide? 633 00:31:58,178 --> 00:32:03,178 So, I didn't have remorse or whatever, you know? 634 00:32:04,741 --> 00:32:06,413 Kerry: So, you lost a friend. 635 00:32:07,306 --> 00:32:09,210 -: It was a business partner. 636 00:32:09,210 --> 00:32:10,740 -: So, things are good. 637 00:32:10,740 --> 00:32:11,573 -: Yes, correct. 638 00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:16,450 -: When we spoke to Kiener about the person 639 00:32:16,450 --> 00:32:18,580 who was involved in his scheme 640 00:32:18,580 --> 00:32:21,430 who unfortunately killed himself, 641 00:32:21,430 --> 00:32:23,467 he immediately deflected, didn't he? 642 00:32:23,467 --> 00:32:24,620 And he started to say, 643 00:32:24,620 --> 00:32:27,650 well, that was because the police were pursuing him 644 00:32:27,650 --> 00:32:31,700 almost as though the police had no reason, no reason. 645 00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:34,550 They were just doing it to be unpleasant. 646 00:32:34,550 --> 00:32:39,550 So that rewriting of history, it's extreme. 647 00:32:39,730 --> 00:32:41,540 -: People who lost their house, 648 00:32:41,540 --> 00:32:45,640 who may have led to divorces, depression, 649 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,550 a lot of things that he can easily not see 650 00:32:48,550 --> 00:32:51,603 because all it is is like an accounting thing for him. 651 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,270 -: Hello, Helmut. -: Hello. 652 00:33:00,270 --> 00:33:01,430 -: How was lunch? 653 00:33:01,430 --> 00:33:02,930 -: Yes, quite nice. 654 00:33:02,930 --> 00:33:07,930 -: If there was a typical investor, who would they be? 655 00:33:08,038 --> 00:33:08,871 -: Men and women. 656 00:33:08,871 --> 00:33:11,080 A lot of academics like doctors. 657 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:11,960 There was some invested, 658 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,840 only invested two and a half thousand. 659 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,210 And maybe here was the whole money they had. 660 00:33:18,210 --> 00:33:19,240 It was hard for them. 661 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,300 Or invested 10, 20,000 662 00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:26,210 and this really was their life savings, yeah? 663 00:33:26,210 --> 00:33:27,430 You can say this, yeah? 664 00:33:27,430 --> 00:33:28,263 -: Right. 665 00:33:28,263 --> 00:33:29,100 So just people, 666 00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:31,613 everyday people with lots of different types of jobs. 667 00:33:31,613 --> 00:33:32,446 -: Correct. 668 00:33:32,446 --> 00:33:35,700 There were some intermediaries who focused on medical, 669 00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:37,080 on physicians. 670 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,520 And there were a lot of physicians as well, 671 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,560 but they lost a few hundred thousand each. 672 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,060 They cannot deal with money as well. 673 00:33:44,060 --> 00:33:47,600 The doctor doesn't have time to think about what he does. 674 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,780 And the doctors lost a lot of money. 675 00:33:49,780 --> 00:33:52,000 Some wrote me letters, very friendly letters. 676 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,600 We don't think that the money is lost. 677 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,670 It will turn out to be good, you know? 678 00:33:56,670 --> 00:33:57,840 -: Well, that's very optimistic. 679 00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:59,210 I suppose, they-- 680 00:33:59,210 --> 00:34:01,060 -: I didn't have the guts to be honest 681 00:34:02,014 --> 00:34:05,910 to tell them the whole money is lost. 682 00:34:05,910 --> 00:34:10,577 ♪ I've been a miner for a heart of gold ♪ 683 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,180 Don't let your heart get cold! 684 00:34:17,453 --> 00:34:18,286 Announcer: That was Helmut Kiener! 685 00:34:20,410 --> 00:34:25,410 -: I've seen videos of Kiener where he's at charity events 686 00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:29,870 because he sees himself as quite the philanthropist. 687 00:34:29,870 --> 00:34:32,920 He's given a huge amount of money to charity, 688 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,090 other people's money, yeah, 689 00:34:35,090 --> 00:34:37,300 I must point out, not his own money. 690 00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:39,240 So, ill gotten gains to charity. 691 00:34:39,240 --> 00:34:41,010 But you see him at these charity events 692 00:34:41,010 --> 00:34:43,570 where he's singing and rapping. 693 00:34:43,570 --> 00:34:45,260 Many of his investors 694 00:34:45,260 --> 00:34:48,690 were probably at these very glittery events. 695 00:34:48,690 --> 00:34:50,920 They've seen him on the stage. 696 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:55,170 Well, there he is, singing, dancing, 697 00:34:55,170 --> 00:34:56,620 having a whale of a time, 698 00:34:56,620 --> 00:34:59,890 and handing over a huge check to charity. 699 00:34:59,890 --> 00:35:03,150 Well, surely, this is somebody that we can trust. 700 00:35:03,150 --> 00:35:04,360 -: And one of the things about, 701 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,060 I think, successful con artists 702 00:35:06,060 --> 00:35:07,730 is they don't look like con artists 703 00:35:07,730 --> 00:35:09,190 'cause if they look like con artists, 704 00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:10,302 people would be suspicious. 705 00:35:10,302 --> 00:35:11,626 -: Well, what does a con artist look like? 706 00:35:11,626 --> 00:35:12,459 -: Right. 707 00:35:12,459 --> 00:35:14,070 Well, it's like serial killers, right? 708 00:35:14,070 --> 00:35:14,903 They're successful 709 00:35:14,903 --> 00:35:17,270 'cause they don't look like serial killers, right? 710 00:35:17,270 --> 00:35:18,980 It's the neighbor next door. 711 00:35:18,980 --> 00:35:21,580 It's some very pleasant looking person. 712 00:35:21,580 --> 00:35:22,413 and same thing here. 713 00:35:22,413 --> 00:35:24,870 You think of some shifty kind of guy, 714 00:35:24,870 --> 00:35:26,640 and I don't know what else 715 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,660 would go into the con artist appearance, 716 00:35:28,660 --> 00:35:30,700 but it doesn't look like that. 717 00:35:30,700 --> 00:35:32,850 -: I didn't care what anybody thinks about me, you know? 718 00:35:32,850 --> 00:35:36,810 You never would see the expensive watches or jewelries 719 00:35:36,810 --> 00:35:38,270 or expensive clothes, you know? 720 00:35:38,270 --> 00:35:40,050 I didn't take care of this. 721 00:35:40,050 --> 00:35:42,640 I went to Zurich to a bank. 722 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,930 They said, this Kiener guy looks like 723 00:35:44,930 --> 00:35:47,002 he has second hand clothes. 724 00:35:47,002 --> 00:35:48,260 -: I don't think it really matters, does it, 725 00:35:48,260 --> 00:35:49,534 what clothes you're wearing 726 00:35:49,534 --> 00:35:52,700 when you arrive in a private jet. 727 00:35:52,700 --> 00:35:53,690 -: That's correct, yeah. 728 00:35:53,690 --> 00:35:55,290 They said, he has its own jet. 729 00:35:55,290 --> 00:35:56,210 Yeah, that looks good. 730 00:35:56,210 --> 00:35:57,740 We give them the loan. 731 00:35:57,740 --> 00:35:58,900 -: Do you think that helped you 732 00:35:58,900 --> 00:36:00,720 build business relationships though? 733 00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:04,550 -: Many banks said this guy can't be cheating people 734 00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:07,300 because he's so authentic, 735 00:36:07,300 --> 00:36:08,830 he's so honest, 736 00:36:08,830 --> 00:36:13,830 and he's not wearing expensive clothes to convince us, 737 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,040 or doing this or doing that, you know? 738 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:18,580 It was an advantage, you're right. 739 00:36:18,580 --> 00:36:19,413 Kerry: Yeah. 740 00:36:26,060 --> 00:36:27,590 -: The next thing we're gonna do 741 00:36:29,633 --> 00:36:33,920 is a game where you basically will receive money 742 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:34,753 for participating. 743 00:36:34,753 --> 00:36:35,950 That's just the beginning. 744 00:36:35,950 --> 00:36:40,770 You will be paired with other people, again, online. 745 00:36:40,770 --> 00:36:43,250 And what you choose will affect how much money 746 00:36:43,250 --> 00:36:45,220 they and you make in this game. 747 00:36:45,220 --> 00:36:47,090 You're player B. 748 00:36:47,090 --> 00:36:48,590 And it always gives you two options, 749 00:36:48,590 --> 00:36:51,140 option one or option two. 750 00:36:51,140 --> 00:36:52,680 If you choose option one, 751 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,300 then you get 400 and they get 400. 752 00:36:56,300 --> 00:36:57,980 If you choose option two, 753 00:36:57,980 --> 00:36:59,680 then you get 375 and they get 750. 754 00:37:00,944 --> 00:37:02,390 -: Okay. 755 00:37:02,390 --> 00:37:03,223 I go with one. 756 00:37:03,223 --> 00:37:04,350 -: Perfect. 757 00:37:04,350 --> 00:37:05,500 Okay. 758 00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:08,320 So in that case, you got 400, they got 400. 759 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:09,190 And now again, 760 00:37:09,190 --> 00:37:10,900 you're player B and now you have two option. 761 00:37:10,900 --> 00:37:12,847 In one, you get 200 and they get 800. 762 00:37:12,847 --> 00:37:15,613 In the other one, you get zero and they get zero. 763 00:37:19,302 --> 00:37:21,930 -: Hm. 764 00:37:21,930 --> 00:37:24,680 Doesn't make sense to both get zero. 765 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:25,966 -: Okay. 766 00:37:25,966 --> 00:37:28,540 And an option, you get 700, they get 200, 767 00:37:28,540 --> 00:37:31,413 or you get 600, but they get also 600. 768 00:37:33,513 --> 00:37:34,346 -: Yeah, 769 00:37:34,346 --> 00:37:36,475 I mean, this is better for everybody 770 00:37:36,475 --> 00:37:38,033 and it's a random game anyway. 771 00:37:40,230 --> 00:37:42,940 -: You get 800 and they get zero 772 00:37:42,940 --> 00:37:44,773 or you get 400 and they get 400. 773 00:37:57,399 --> 00:38:00,420 Now, the good news is that there's some signature. 774 00:38:00,420 --> 00:38:02,520 It's tiny and we can kind of see it by eye 775 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,010 after you average all the trials. 776 00:38:04,010 --> 00:38:07,540 And the bad news is that it's not a, 777 00:38:07,540 --> 00:38:08,960 you know, kind of characteristic 778 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:09,793 that you can say, okay, 779 00:38:09,793 --> 00:38:11,030 if you have this response, 780 00:38:11,030 --> 00:38:11,970 then you are a con artist. 781 00:38:11,970 --> 00:38:13,300 If you don't have it, you're not. 782 00:38:13,300 --> 00:38:14,910 It's something that a lot of people would have. 783 00:38:14,910 --> 00:38:16,640 -: So if you threw Helmut's data in 784 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,870 with a bunch of undergraduates. 785 00:38:18,870 --> 00:38:20,270 -: You wouldn't pick him out. 786 00:38:29,190 --> 00:38:32,890 -: I still don't fully understand what a Ponzi scheme is. 787 00:38:32,890 --> 00:38:35,440 -: The Ponzi scheme works that way 788 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,660 that there's someone who raises money. 789 00:38:39,660 --> 00:38:41,730 The guy who takes the money, 790 00:38:41,730 --> 00:38:45,400 he buys luxury houses, luxury cars. 791 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,020 -: Helicopters, jets. 792 00:38:47,020 --> 00:38:48,670 -: Yeah, exactly, exactly. 793 00:38:48,670 --> 00:38:49,830 Part of the money, 794 00:38:49,830 --> 00:38:53,150 I have already shifted to untraceable accounts, 795 00:38:53,150 --> 00:38:54,890 but only part of the money 796 00:38:54,890 --> 00:38:58,930 because I need some reserves for redeeming investors. 797 00:38:58,930 --> 00:39:01,923 -: In a Ponzi scheme, none of that gets invested really. 798 00:39:02,952 --> 00:39:05,130 -: None of the money gets invested in a Ponzi scheme, 799 00:39:05,130 --> 00:39:08,260 but we had a modified Ponzi scheme. 800 00:39:08,260 --> 00:39:09,850 And this is a different, you know? 801 00:39:09,850 --> 00:39:13,300 -: So in what way is your modified Ponzi scheme different? 802 00:39:13,300 --> 00:39:14,680 What percentage of the monies 803 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,423 that you were getting were being actually invested? 804 00:39:18,940 --> 00:39:21,210 -: It was actually almost all money invested, 805 00:39:21,210 --> 00:39:23,940 but it didn't have any value anymore. 806 00:39:23,940 --> 00:39:27,473 And this was the crime, you know? 807 00:39:28,963 --> 00:39:30,380 -: I think that Ponzi scheme 808 00:39:30,380 --> 00:39:32,298 is the perfect crime in many ways, 809 00:39:32,298 --> 00:39:34,780 because it allows the criminal 810 00:39:34,780 --> 00:39:39,780 to not have a victim that's kind of front row. 811 00:39:40,210 --> 00:39:43,050 And it creates all the conditions 812 00:39:43,050 --> 00:39:43,883 that there are so many people involved 813 00:39:43,883 --> 00:39:45,280 and so many things involved 814 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:46,610 that you really can tell yourself, 815 00:39:46,610 --> 00:39:47,670 there were no victims. 816 00:39:47,670 --> 00:39:50,177 And in the end, all that's lost is money. 817 00:39:50,177 --> 00:39:54,420 -: And this ability to sort of separate yourself 818 00:39:54,420 --> 00:39:55,520 from the victim. 819 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,659 And I like this thinking about the Ponzi scheme, right, 820 00:39:59,659 --> 00:40:03,170 the layers between you and the specific individual, 821 00:40:03,170 --> 00:40:04,003 as you said, 822 00:40:04,003 --> 00:40:07,030 to go face-to-face, to hit somebody, 823 00:40:07,030 --> 00:40:08,600 whereas, you know, the bomber pilots, 824 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:09,433 they talk about that. 825 00:40:09,433 --> 00:40:13,110 When you're at 20,000 feet dropping a bomb. 826 00:40:13,110 --> 00:40:14,800 Stalin's classic phrase, right? 827 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,890 The death of a soldier is a tragedy, 828 00:40:16,890 --> 00:40:18,953 the death of a million is a statistic. 829 00:40:27,230 --> 00:40:29,810 -: I developed maybe some new (indistinct). 830 00:40:29,810 --> 00:40:31,440 I was very compulsory, 831 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,020 being careful not to be infected by diseases or whatever, 832 00:40:35,020 --> 00:40:36,663 wash my hands a lot, 833 00:40:38,750 --> 00:40:42,580 being careful that I switched off the lights everywhere. 834 00:40:42,580 --> 00:40:44,763 Otherwise, the house could blow up. 835 00:41:03,557 --> 00:41:07,623 I have some visions that the treatments of people 836 00:41:07,623 --> 00:41:11,920 that are involved in frauds are getting better. 837 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:12,960 You know? 838 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,490 If you know their brain activity like this, 839 00:41:16,490 --> 00:41:19,850 you can in the future maybe not put them away, 840 00:41:19,850 --> 00:41:24,628 just put them away, but treat them adequately, 841 00:41:24,628 --> 00:41:28,890 maybe even with surgery or with psychotherapy. 842 00:41:28,890 --> 00:41:33,560 This study is very useful for this, I think. 843 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,605 -: So, but you feel that it could be a brain disease. 844 00:41:37,605 --> 00:41:38,438 What makes you think it's a disease? 845 00:41:38,438 --> 00:41:39,271 -: I regard it like this. 846 00:41:39,271 --> 00:41:40,330 Kerry: Do you, why? 847 00:41:41,380 --> 00:41:45,830 -: Because you are a product of your environment 848 00:41:45,830 --> 00:41:47,620 and your genes. 849 00:41:47,620 --> 00:41:52,300 And I think to a big part, 850 00:41:52,300 --> 00:41:53,690 you can't do anything, 851 00:41:53,690 --> 00:41:55,010 that you developed that way, 852 00:41:55,010 --> 00:41:57,680 so it is like a disease. 853 00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:59,130 I knew a lot of these guys, 854 00:41:59,130 --> 00:42:01,663 and I always said, it's like a disease. 855 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:15,000 -: You guys described him as very kind of non-emotional. 856 00:42:15,245 --> 00:42:17,510 And in my test, indeed, 857 00:42:17,510 --> 00:42:19,860 he comes out as extremely rational. 858 00:42:19,860 --> 00:42:22,520 In every choice and every decision he had to make, 859 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,260 chose the correct answer, 860 00:42:24,260 --> 00:42:26,500 thought about it, had an explanation to why, 861 00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:27,817 and did that. 862 00:42:27,817 --> 00:42:30,340 And this, to me, is contradictory 863 00:42:30,340 --> 00:42:32,050 to the fact that when you talk to him 864 00:42:32,050 --> 00:42:33,350 kind of outside of the test, 865 00:42:33,350 --> 00:42:34,440 he speaks about religion, 866 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,550 which is the kind of antithesis of like rational. 867 00:42:38,550 --> 00:42:39,960 Like, it's kind of you believe in things 868 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:40,990 that you cannot explain. 869 00:42:40,990 --> 00:42:42,030 There's no logic to it. 870 00:42:42,030 --> 00:42:43,810 So he lives in two worlds. 871 00:42:43,810 --> 00:42:45,476 One is his mind, 872 00:42:45,476 --> 00:42:49,220 which we can capture by looking at his brain in a test, 873 00:42:49,220 --> 00:42:50,440 the behavior, and so on. 874 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,090 And one is the person that goes out of the test 875 00:42:53,090 --> 00:42:55,700 that has an entire different narrative of life. 876 00:42:55,700 --> 00:42:56,600 All the money in the world 877 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,130 doesn't give you the pleasure that you want, 878 00:42:58,130 --> 00:42:59,520 like things that kind of don't align, 879 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,289 the two different worlds in one person. 880 00:43:01,289 --> 00:43:03,920 -: And yet he was an investment banker. 881 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:05,240 He still works in finance. 882 00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:09,740 I mean, that is the most, well, capitalist. 883 00:43:09,740 --> 00:43:13,150 -: Proud of the big plane and the nice cars. 884 00:43:13,150 --> 00:43:15,250 -: Very proud, very proud of the big plane. 885 00:43:15,250 --> 00:43:16,800 Bigger than Trump's, wasn't it? 886 00:43:26,295 --> 00:43:31,295 I think I did see Helmut Kiener's core self. 887 00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:34,860 And I think that what I saw were 888 00:43:34,860 --> 00:43:39,860 how strong his psychological defenses are 889 00:43:39,970 --> 00:43:42,660 and how much he finds it difficult 890 00:43:42,660 --> 00:43:46,143 to face up to his own weaknesses and failures. 891 00:43:47,420 --> 00:43:48,490 Certainly, for me, 892 00:43:48,490 --> 00:43:52,340 I feel that he's a classic case of somebody 893 00:43:52,340 --> 00:43:56,110 with dark triad personality characteristics. 894 00:43:56,110 --> 00:43:57,370 And no doubt, they're mixed in 895 00:43:57,370 --> 00:44:00,910 with lots of other more acceptable, if you like, 896 00:44:00,910 --> 00:44:03,563 or more pleasant characteristics. 897 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:10,230 I wanted to talk to you 898 00:44:10,230 --> 00:44:13,760 about dark triad personality traits. 899 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:15,450 Are you familiar with that phrase? 900 00:44:15,450 --> 00:44:16,595 -: No. 901 00:44:16,595 --> 00:44:19,837 -: It's a psychological term. 902 00:44:19,837 --> 00:44:24,149 And dark triad personality traits 903 00:44:24,149 --> 00:44:28,300 are a mixture of aggressive, 904 00:44:28,300 --> 00:44:29,640 not physically aggressive, 905 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,590 but competitive personality trait. 906 00:44:33,590 --> 00:44:36,580 Quite arrogant personality traits 907 00:44:36,580 --> 00:44:41,444 and total belief in your own abilities. 908 00:44:41,444 --> 00:44:42,330 -: Yes, yes. 909 00:44:42,330 --> 00:44:44,730 -: And Machiavellian personality traits. 910 00:44:44,730 --> 00:44:46,230 So there's these three tiers. 911 00:44:46,230 --> 00:44:49,053 So Machiavellian is manipulative behaviors. 912 00:44:49,053 --> 00:44:50,540 -: Yeah, I know this expression, yeah. 913 00:44:50,540 --> 00:44:51,400 -: Yeah. 914 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:56,400 And those three personality traits are very, very common. 915 00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,610 In fact, they are necessary 916 00:44:58,610 --> 00:45:01,323 to succeed in the world of business. 917 00:45:02,540 --> 00:45:05,023 Can you identify with any of those traits? 918 00:45:06,430 --> 00:45:08,223 -: Usually, I'm not very arrogant, 919 00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:11,210 but at that time, some said, yeah, 920 00:45:11,210 --> 00:45:13,053 the guy gets more and more arrogant. 921 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,573 I usually cannot describe me that way. 922 00:45:18,700 --> 00:45:20,370 -: Why do you think you became more and more arrogant 923 00:45:20,370 --> 00:45:21,770 in the eyes of other people? 924 00:45:23,770 --> 00:45:27,670 -: Germany is very, nobody likes arrogant people. 925 00:45:27,670 --> 00:45:30,090 They are very down to earth. 926 00:45:30,090 --> 00:45:33,547 And then if someone is making jokes, you know, 927 00:45:33,547 --> 00:45:36,660 I'm gonna rule the world or something like this, 928 00:45:36,660 --> 00:45:40,950 they take it serious and they say, listen to this guy. 929 00:45:40,950 --> 00:45:44,320 -: One kind of question that comes up again and again is, 930 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:45,453 can people change? 931 00:45:46,392 --> 00:45:50,360 These people supposedly are the complete story. 932 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:51,860 They did something bad, they got caught, 933 00:45:51,860 --> 00:45:52,693 they paid their price. 934 00:45:52,693 --> 00:45:55,650 Now, we reflect back on their life as if it's over. 935 00:45:55,650 --> 00:45:58,570 But the question that still remains open 936 00:45:58,570 --> 00:46:03,570 is are we gonna see episode two of Kiener back in the news 937 00:46:07,620 --> 00:46:11,680 or someone else kind of starting again 938 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,890 and like doing the same things with a different narrative? 939 00:46:14,890 --> 00:46:17,770 And I have, unfortunately, 940 00:46:17,770 --> 00:46:19,640 usually, I'm optimistic. 941 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:21,960 On this thing, I'm quite pessimistic, 942 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,433 as in I think that it's very hard to change. 943 00:46:25,870 --> 00:46:26,703 -: Yeah, I always say 944 00:46:26,703 --> 00:46:28,910 I'm not involved in this business anymore, 945 00:46:28,910 --> 00:46:29,900 so it cannot happen. 946 00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:33,360 It was bad decisions, and it was agreed on others, 947 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:38,360 and it was a part of my personality as I said. 948 00:46:38,941 --> 00:46:42,306 Don't be a coward, carry through. 949 00:46:42,306 --> 00:46:45,440 You fight the fan through, it will recover. 950 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,070 Fight, fight, fight, you know? 951 00:46:47,070 --> 00:46:49,270 And developed a fighting spirit 952 00:46:49,270 --> 00:46:52,470 and this was a disadvantage at the time. 953 00:46:52,470 --> 00:46:54,053 -: And when you were in prison, 954 00:46:54,970 --> 00:46:57,493 you obviously had time to do a lot of thinking. 955 00:46:58,560 --> 00:46:59,780 Did it change you? 956 00:46:59,780 --> 00:47:00,860 -: No, not that much, 957 00:47:00,860 --> 00:47:04,911 because I thought I'm not the kind of guy 958 00:47:04,911 --> 00:47:07,680 who can be intimidated, 959 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,350 just to be thrown in prison. 960 00:47:10,350 --> 00:47:14,150 I'm not like a mouse, which has an experiment. 961 00:47:14,150 --> 00:47:17,656 And the mouse gets a reward 962 00:47:17,656 --> 00:47:22,190 or gonna be punished if she's doing something. 963 00:47:22,190 --> 00:47:26,853 So this is kind of this behavior changing, 964 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:30,830 put someone in a prison. 965 00:47:30,830 --> 00:47:33,390 I said, don't let it on me. 966 00:47:33,390 --> 00:47:36,020 It is not the right measure. 967 00:47:36,020 --> 00:47:38,513 And this will not change me. 968 00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:45,430 -: But did you have to acknowledge 969 00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:47,493 that you're not invincible? 970 00:47:48,490 --> 00:47:49,323 -: Yeah. 971 00:47:49,323 --> 00:47:53,050 As the fund broke down, if I'm in jail or not, 972 00:47:53,050 --> 00:47:55,083 I knew I'm not invincible, you know? 973 00:47:56,930 --> 00:47:58,600 -: And where are you in life at the moment? 974 00:47:58,600 --> 00:47:59,923 What are you doing? 975 00:48:01,060 --> 00:48:02,240 -: Yes. 976 00:48:02,240 --> 00:48:06,003 I'm working in e-commerce with a company. 977 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,973 I'm employed. 978 00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:15,590 -: I find him particularly narcissistic. 979 00:48:15,590 --> 00:48:18,350 I find him quite arrogant in some respects, 980 00:48:18,350 --> 00:48:22,430 but I believe that that is compensatory narcissism. 981 00:48:22,430 --> 00:48:24,800 I believe that it's developed 982 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:29,010 out of a need to compensate for his own anxiety. 983 00:48:29,010 --> 00:48:30,670 And I feel that as a child, 984 00:48:30,670 --> 00:48:33,600 he was and he's been very, very kind to his father, 985 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,740 but he was subjected to some terror by his father 986 00:48:36,740 --> 00:48:39,600 and it did, you know, it impacted him. 987 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,000 It impacted him emotionally. 988 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,880 So I think that that's a contradiction in terms, 989 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:46,200 isn't it? 990 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,233 An anxious narcissist. 991 00:48:49,725 --> 00:48:50,558 That's what he is. 992 00:48:50,558 --> 00:48:51,574 -: Right. 993 00:48:51,574 --> 00:48:53,720 To be the best, always be the best, always be the best. 994 00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:54,800 Yeah, there's something there. 995 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,180 -: And I think that there's a real need to say, 996 00:48:58,180 --> 00:49:01,320 no, no, I didn't do anything really bad. 997 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,150 It wasn't a real Ponzi scheme. 998 00:49:03,150 --> 00:49:05,020 It was like a Ponzi scheme 999 00:49:05,020 --> 00:49:07,250 because he was definitely trying to convince us of that, 1000 00:49:07,250 --> 00:49:08,254 wasn't he? 1001 00:49:08,254 --> 00:49:09,087 -: Yeah. 1002 00:49:09,087 --> 00:49:09,920 -: Otherwise, 1003 00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,840 how can you go through life saying I'm a humanist, 1004 00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,540 yet I've been involved in this really very cruel, 1005 00:49:16,540 --> 00:49:19,943 capitalist, and calculating behavior? 1006 00:49:29,361 --> 00:49:31,240 Hello. -: Hello. 1007 00:49:31,240 --> 00:49:33,217 All together. -: Yes. 1008 00:49:33,217 --> 00:49:34,050 How are you? 1009 00:49:34,050 --> 00:49:35,330 -: Doing fine, thank you. 1010 00:49:35,330 --> 00:49:38,770 -: You actually, when I look at your brain, did a great job. 1011 00:49:38,770 --> 00:49:40,977 You actually scored the highest 1012 00:49:40,977 --> 00:49:43,320 that I've ever seen in one of the tests 1013 00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,090 that has to do with assessing risk. 1014 00:49:45,090 --> 00:49:47,770 At the same time, when I look at your brain, 1015 00:49:47,770 --> 00:49:49,560 your brain was normative. 1016 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,640 I couldn't find anything that is an outlier there. 1017 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,180 -: There's no brain disease. 1018 00:49:54,180 --> 00:49:57,210 there's no brain disease that can explain this. 1019 00:49:57,210 --> 00:49:58,043 Helmut: Yeah. 1020 00:49:58,043 --> 00:49:59,940 -: So you seem normal. -: Unfortunately, 1021 00:49:59,940 --> 00:50:01,590 I don't have any excuse then. 1022 00:50:01,590 --> 00:50:04,630 -: Exactly. -: That's exactly the point. 1023 00:50:04,630 --> 00:50:06,533 -: Well, thank you for what you shared. 1024 00:50:07,500 --> 00:50:10,610 And I do think that a challenge for you 1025 00:50:10,610 --> 00:50:13,450 is to maybe be a little more self-aware 1026 00:50:13,450 --> 00:50:17,420 and to take responsibility for your choices. 1027 00:50:17,420 --> 00:50:18,253 -: Mm-hmm. 1028 00:50:18,253 --> 00:50:19,440 -: You can't, I'm afraid, 1029 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:21,090 you now have the evidence, 1030 00:50:21,090 --> 00:50:22,563 you can't blame your brain. 1031 00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:24,780 -: Unfortunately. 1032 00:50:24,780 --> 00:50:26,530 Oh, that's too bad. 1033 00:50:26,530 --> 00:50:28,210 I have to rethink it now. 1034 00:50:28,210 --> 00:50:29,100 Kerry: You do. 1035 00:50:29,100 --> 00:50:30,780 -: Use the same brain to think about that. 1036 00:50:30,780 --> 00:50:31,613 Helmut: Yes. 1037 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:38,950 -: Do you have any questions for us? 1038 00:50:38,950 --> 00:50:39,800 -: No. 1039 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:40,830 -: No? 1040 00:50:40,830 --> 00:50:42,200 Then it's time to say goodbye. 1041 00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,610 Can we wish you luck in the future? 1042 00:50:44,610 --> 00:50:45,443 -: Yes, thank you so much. 1043 00:50:45,443 --> 00:50:47,030 You helped me a lot. -: Thank you for coming. 1044 00:50:47,030 --> 00:50:48,210 -: And thank you for having me. 1045 00:50:48,210 --> 00:50:49,415 -: Thank you. 1046 00:50:49,415 --> 00:50:50,325 -: Thank you for coming. 1047 00:50:50,325 --> 00:50:52,277 -: Thank you so much, yeah. 1048 00:50:52,277 --> 00:50:53,115 -: It was a pleasure. -: It was a pleasure. 1049 00:50:53,115 --> 00:50:54,484 -: Yes. 1050 00:50:54,484 --> 00:50:58,567 (contemplative orchestral music) 1051 00:51:21,246 --> 00:51:24,329 (soft ambient music)