1 00:00:02,101 --> 00:00:04,851 (waves crashing) 2 00:00:09,143 --> 00:00:11,893 (dramatic music) 3 00:00:17,693 --> 00:00:20,516 Narrator: What happens in the mind of con artists? 4 00:00:22,023 --> 00:00:24,903 What makes their brain so well equipped 5 00:00:24,903 --> 00:00:26,576 for psychological trickery? 6 00:00:28,793 --> 00:00:30,006 Is it greed? 7 00:00:31,113 --> 00:00:32,266 A lack of empathy? 8 00:00:33,433 --> 00:00:34,446 Loose morals? 9 00:00:37,333 --> 00:00:38,763 Whatever it is, 10 00:00:38,763 --> 00:00:41,456 we are fascinated by con artists. 11 00:01:00,625 --> 00:01:02,643 Narrator: Christophe Rocancourt is a French imposter 12 00:01:02,643 --> 00:01:05,513 who was nicknamed "The Con Man of The Stars." 13 00:01:05,513 --> 00:01:07,620 Narrator: Rocancourt fooled people into thinking 14 00:01:07,620 --> 00:01:08,453 he was Christophe Rockefeller, 15 00:01:08,453 --> 00:01:09,753 Christophe DeLaurentiis, 16 00:01:09,753 --> 00:01:11,263 or Christophe de la Renta, 17 00:01:11,263 --> 00:01:13,633 son of the world famous fashion designer, 18 00:01:13,633 --> 00:01:14,926 Oscar de la Renta. 19 00:01:15,822 --> 00:01:17,733 Man: This crazy, elaborate story 20 00:01:17,733 --> 00:01:18,863 of this guy from France. 21 00:01:18,863 --> 00:01:20,173 -: Christoph Rocancourt. 22 00:01:20,173 --> 00:01:22,773 Narrator: A man who swindled millions of dollars 23 00:01:22,773 --> 00:01:25,296 from well-known people in Hollywood. 24 00:01:25,296 --> 00:01:27,273 -: Yeah, that's my financier. 25 00:01:27,273 --> 00:01:29,083 Man: He had a cop on his payroll. 26 00:01:29,083 --> 00:01:30,593 He had princesses from Zaire 27 00:01:30,593 --> 00:01:33,436 that were smuggling diamonds into the country. 28 00:01:33,436 --> 00:01:34,573 Narrator: He defrauded people 29 00:01:34,573 --> 00:01:35,406 of enormous amounts of money. 30 00:01:35,406 --> 00:01:36,503 Hundreds of people were scammed 31 00:01:36,503 --> 00:01:38,233 by con artist, Christophe Rocancourt 32 00:01:38,233 --> 00:01:39,473 through fictional deals. 33 00:01:39,473 --> 00:01:41,659 Narrator: He was arrested in 2000 34 00:01:41,659 --> 00:01:43,603 and sentenced to five years in federal prison. 35 00:01:43,603 --> 00:01:45,463 Released in 2007, 36 00:01:45,463 --> 00:01:46,683 he was deported to France 37 00:01:46,683 --> 00:01:48,899 and hailed as a folk hero. 38 00:01:48,899 --> 00:01:53,143 -: (speaking foreign language) (audience applauding) 39 00:01:53,143 --> 00:01:54,663 Narrator: He's like Rocky. 40 00:01:54,663 --> 00:01:56,803 He's the Rocky of con artists. 41 00:02:01,444 --> 00:02:04,777 (rising dramatic music) 42 00:02:27,703 --> 00:02:30,123 Narrator: We've all been lied to. 43 00:02:30,123 --> 00:02:32,113 We've all been offered something 44 00:02:32,113 --> 00:02:34,913 that is just too good to be true, 45 00:02:34,913 --> 00:02:36,353 and still, 46 00:02:36,353 --> 00:02:38,093 we fell for it. 47 00:02:38,093 --> 00:02:40,083 Although we love a good con, 48 00:02:40,083 --> 00:02:43,403 we hate it when it happens to us. 49 00:02:43,403 --> 00:02:46,513 To find out how to resist the manipulation, 50 00:02:46,513 --> 00:02:49,303 we invited some of the greatest con artists 51 00:02:49,303 --> 00:02:50,606 to our Institute. 52 00:02:51,779 --> 00:02:53,203 Together with a team of experts, 53 00:02:53,203 --> 00:02:55,613 we are going to analyze their stories, 54 00:02:55,613 --> 00:02:56,873 pick their brains, 55 00:02:56,873 --> 00:03:00,403 and reveal what their body language tells us. 56 00:03:00,403 --> 00:03:03,277 Welcome to The Institute. 57 00:03:03,277 --> 00:03:05,136 -: Hello, Mr. Rocancourt. -: Hi, how are you? 58 00:03:05,136 --> 00:03:06,015 -: All right. 59 00:03:06,015 --> 00:03:06,953 How was your trip? -: Oh, very good. 60 00:03:06,953 --> 00:03:08,053 -: Yeah. 61 00:03:08,053 --> 00:03:09,013 Good, happy to hear it. 62 00:03:09,013 --> 00:03:09,846 They're waiting. 63 00:03:17,003 --> 00:03:19,083 -: Mr. Rocancourt, hello. 64 00:03:19,083 --> 00:03:19,933 Take a seat. 65 00:03:19,933 --> 00:03:21,786 Welcome to The Institute. 66 00:03:22,843 --> 00:03:24,343 I am Kerry Daynes, 67 00:03:24,343 --> 00:03:27,403 I'm a consultant forensic psychologist, 68 00:03:27,403 --> 00:03:30,263 and my colleagues here are Moran Cerf, 69 00:03:30,263 --> 00:03:33,193 and he's a professor of neuroscience, 70 00:03:33,193 --> 00:03:38,173 and Mark Frank, and he's a professor of behavioral science. 71 00:03:38,173 --> 00:03:42,043 Now, we don't want you to feel like a Guinea pig, 72 00:03:42,043 --> 00:03:44,713 but over the next few days, 73 00:03:44,713 --> 00:03:47,373 we are going to work with you 74 00:03:47,373 --> 00:03:51,132 in a series of analyses and tests. 75 00:03:51,132 --> 00:03:53,913 And, of course, you know why you're here. 76 00:03:53,913 --> 00:03:55,193 -: Of course. 77 00:03:55,193 --> 00:03:58,543 -: You are a man who, over a lifetime, 78 00:03:58,543 --> 00:04:01,493 has taken on many, many different identities. 79 00:04:01,493 --> 00:04:03,537 That's true to say, isn't it? 80 00:04:03,537 --> 00:04:05,105 -: Yeah, it's true. -: Yeah? 81 00:04:05,105 --> 00:04:07,303 Rockefeller, a name everybody knows. 82 00:04:07,303 --> 00:04:10,073 But also a wealthy Russian prince. 83 00:04:10,073 --> 00:04:11,233 -: (murmurs) 84 00:04:11,233 --> 00:04:12,703 -: The son of Sophia Loren, 85 00:04:12,703 --> 00:04:16,337 and the grandson of fashion designer, Oscar De la Renta. 86 00:04:16,337 --> 00:04:20,795 So very glamorous alter egos that you have there. 87 00:04:20,795 --> 00:04:24,143 Well, Moran Cerf going to test 88 00:04:24,143 --> 00:04:28,353 your capabilities using EEG technology. 89 00:04:28,353 --> 00:04:29,671 -: Hi Christophe. 90 00:04:29,671 --> 00:04:31,533 I'm a neuroscientist, as you heard. 91 00:04:31,533 --> 00:04:33,413 I also spent many years as a hacker, 92 00:04:33,413 --> 00:04:37,123 so I have some experience getting 93 00:04:37,123 --> 00:04:39,353 into people's minds and understanding how they think, 94 00:04:39,353 --> 00:04:41,273 but I'm really interested in getting into your mind 95 00:04:41,273 --> 00:04:42,783 and understanding how you think 96 00:04:42,783 --> 00:04:44,413 because I'm curious, specifically, 97 00:04:44,413 --> 00:04:47,403 in what motivates you and how you operate. 98 00:04:47,403 --> 00:04:51,463 And also, how we can learn to be cautious 99 00:04:51,463 --> 00:04:53,353 when talking to people like you. 100 00:04:53,353 --> 00:04:56,048 -: To be hacker, that mean you have to be cautious. 101 00:04:56,048 --> 00:04:56,903 I have to be cautious of you. 102 00:04:56,903 --> 00:05:00,153 -: Yeah, this is going to be a mutual interaction. 103 00:05:00,153 --> 00:05:03,623 -: Mark is going to study you behaviorally. 104 00:05:03,623 --> 00:05:05,623 -: We're interested in what is going on 105 00:05:05,623 --> 00:05:07,713 inside the mind and how it manifests 106 00:05:07,713 --> 00:05:09,243 on the outside of the body, 107 00:05:09,243 --> 00:05:12,243 and what this may tell us about the con. 108 00:05:12,243 --> 00:05:14,463 But also, what the con may tell us 109 00:05:14,463 --> 00:05:16,583 about human behavior in general. 110 00:05:16,583 --> 00:05:18,283 -: And hopefully, you want to learn 111 00:05:18,283 --> 00:05:20,023 about yourself as well. 112 00:05:20,023 --> 00:05:21,323 -: Learning is always good. 113 00:05:22,733 --> 00:05:26,223 -: Meanwhile, make yourself at home in the Institute, 114 00:05:26,223 --> 00:05:27,643 have a look around. 115 00:05:27,643 --> 00:05:29,173 And if you've brought your swimming costume, 116 00:05:29,173 --> 00:05:31,186 make use of the spa facilities. 117 00:05:35,977 --> 00:05:38,727 (dramatic music) 118 00:05:55,172 --> 00:05:56,413 -: Hello. -: Hello. 119 00:05:56,413 --> 00:05:59,163 -: How are you today? -: Pretty good, and yourself? 120 00:05:59,163 --> 00:06:00,053 -: Not too bad. 121 00:06:00,053 --> 00:06:01,173 You ready? -: Yeah. 122 00:06:01,173 --> 00:06:02,953 You ready for this? -: Yeah. 123 00:06:02,953 --> 00:06:07,213 -: I have to ask about your current legal position 124 00:06:07,213 --> 00:06:09,903 because I understand that it's a little bit complicated. 125 00:06:09,903 --> 00:06:13,363 So where are you up to, legally, 126 00:06:13,363 --> 00:06:14,674 at the moment? 127 00:06:14,674 --> 00:06:16,183 -: What do you mean by "legally"? 128 00:06:16,183 --> 00:06:20,233 -: Well, I was told that you are currently awaiting trial. 129 00:06:20,233 --> 00:06:22,873 -: Yeah, it was a trial seven years ago, yeah. 130 00:06:22,873 --> 00:06:25,806 -: Right, so that's happening right now. 131 00:06:27,283 --> 00:06:30,953 It shows you that your past can come up 132 00:06:30,953 --> 00:06:33,483 and it can bite you at any time. 133 00:06:33,483 --> 00:06:37,103 So does that mean that there's going to be any issues 134 00:06:37,103 --> 00:06:38,853 with how honest you can be? 135 00:06:38,853 --> 00:06:40,753 -: What do you mean about to be honest? 136 00:06:42,263 --> 00:06:44,919 I don't have to answer anything I don't want to. 137 00:06:44,919 --> 00:06:46,579 -: So can I ask anything that I want? 138 00:06:46,579 --> 00:06:49,602 -: You can ask, and I will answer you if I want. 139 00:06:49,602 --> 00:06:51,403 -: There are ramifications to things that 140 00:06:51,403 --> 00:06:52,826 you might possibly say. 141 00:06:54,083 --> 00:06:55,023 -: No problems. 142 00:06:55,023 --> 00:06:57,773 -: Okay, well, I appreciate that. 143 00:06:57,773 --> 00:07:00,619 You went to Switzerland, didn't you? 144 00:07:00,619 --> 00:07:02,353 With the money that you'd conned. 145 00:07:02,353 --> 00:07:04,798 -: Yeah, you're talking about the robbery. 146 00:07:04,798 --> 00:07:05,975 It's a big thing there. 147 00:07:05,975 --> 00:07:07,353 -: Yeah, so when you were in Switzerland, 148 00:07:07,353 --> 00:07:10,343 you were involved in an armed robbery. 149 00:07:10,343 --> 00:07:11,643 -: You say that. 150 00:07:11,643 --> 00:07:13,243 -: Okay. -: I should be cautious. 151 00:07:13,243 --> 00:07:15,063 -: Well, am I right if I say that? 152 00:07:15,063 --> 00:07:18,033 -: I never been convicted to armed robbery, no? 153 00:07:18,033 --> 00:07:19,961 -: Okay. -: Yes or no? 154 00:07:19,961 --> 00:07:22,423 -: No. -: That's it. 155 00:07:22,423 --> 00:07:24,323 You have my answer to that. 156 00:07:24,323 --> 00:07:25,583 -: So we can only talk about things 157 00:07:25,583 --> 00:07:26,793 that you've been convicted of? 158 00:07:26,793 --> 00:07:28,663 -: No, you can talk anything, 159 00:07:28,663 --> 00:07:30,313 but I have to answer you what is. 160 00:07:31,559 --> 00:07:33,533 -: Oh no, so we're dancing around it 161 00:07:33,533 --> 00:07:34,653 a little bit, aren't we? 162 00:07:34,653 --> 00:07:35,742 -: No, no. 163 00:07:35,742 --> 00:07:40,043 If I will tell you I've been on the armed robbery, 164 00:07:40,043 --> 00:07:42,373 that mean I will agree I did the armed robbery, 165 00:07:42,373 --> 00:07:44,483 so there's a big difference. 166 00:07:44,483 --> 00:07:45,802 -: Well, there is... 167 00:07:45,802 --> 00:07:47,363 I don't know that you'd call it aggressive, 168 00:07:47,363 --> 00:07:51,223 but there's a sharper edge to Christophe, 169 00:07:51,223 --> 00:07:53,823 and it's come out very, very early on. 170 00:07:53,823 --> 00:07:55,516 -: He's enjoying this, right? 171 00:07:55,516 --> 00:07:56,623 I mean, that's it. 172 00:07:56,623 --> 00:07:57,833 He is enjoying it, 173 00:07:57,833 --> 00:08:02,273 and I think he's realizing it's affecting you 174 00:08:02,273 --> 00:08:03,553 in some way too. 175 00:08:03,553 --> 00:08:05,893 -: I think we just established our boundaries, 176 00:08:05,893 --> 00:08:08,723 we established our personalities there. 177 00:08:08,723 --> 00:08:10,666 -: Oh yeah, the game is on. 178 00:08:14,443 --> 00:08:18,453 -: So I'm interested in your journey 179 00:08:18,453 --> 00:08:20,458 to becoming a con-artist, 180 00:08:20,458 --> 00:08:22,743 the development of it. 181 00:08:22,743 --> 00:08:24,936 So where does it all start? 182 00:08:26,863 --> 00:08:30,593 -: Oh, I think the first is a guy 183 00:08:30,593 --> 00:08:34,482 I did con from Bel-Air who'd have a house. 184 00:08:34,482 --> 00:08:37,030 The guy who used to work for a prince 185 00:08:37,030 --> 00:08:38,980 and he used to walk with Steven Seagal. 186 00:08:40,102 --> 00:08:41,943 I get 250,000. 187 00:08:41,943 --> 00:08:44,393 After I buy a car, nice car, 188 00:08:44,393 --> 00:08:45,463 I find an apartment. 189 00:08:45,463 --> 00:08:47,103 I had start to build it. 190 00:08:47,103 --> 00:08:49,582 What is funny with that kind of money, 191 00:08:49,582 --> 00:08:52,542 you have to spend to get money. 192 00:08:52,542 --> 00:08:56,406 I make money and money make me walk the high society. 193 00:08:57,403 --> 00:08:59,264 -: Okay, tell me about that. 194 00:08:59,264 --> 00:09:00,263 That's really interesting. 195 00:09:00,263 --> 00:09:05,263 -: Nobody find you unattractive if you have money. 196 00:09:05,403 --> 00:09:07,033 The politician, "Oh, hi." 197 00:09:07,033 --> 00:09:08,733 The movie stars are involved. 198 00:09:08,733 --> 00:09:10,373 Mickey Rourke is right there, 199 00:09:10,373 --> 00:09:12,533 Van Damme is right there, 200 00:09:12,533 --> 00:09:14,640 Michael Jackson at Santa Ynez. 201 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,863 "Oh, I'm sorry." 202 00:09:16,863 --> 00:09:18,443 You see a French guy, 203 00:09:18,443 --> 00:09:20,243 and I'm telling you I'm Rockefeller. 204 00:09:22,643 --> 00:09:24,963 Because you're greedy, you don't want to see, 205 00:09:24,963 --> 00:09:26,663 you don't care, who is that person. 206 00:09:26,663 --> 00:09:27,963 You don't care what he is. 207 00:09:29,446 --> 00:09:32,076 That time he's bringing the bottle of Cristal 208 00:09:32,076 --> 00:09:33,433 and the pretty girls, 209 00:09:33,433 --> 00:09:34,743 and they have fun, 210 00:09:34,743 --> 00:09:37,583 and they're taking picture of you. 211 00:09:37,583 --> 00:09:38,653 You go to the Oscar, 212 00:09:38,653 --> 00:09:40,653 you go to the Vanity Fair party, 213 00:09:40,653 --> 00:09:41,863 we're hopping around 214 00:09:41,863 --> 00:09:44,320 and the Muhamman Ali's taking picture with you. 215 00:09:48,648 --> 00:09:49,481 "What the heck? 216 00:09:49,481 --> 00:09:52,160 "This guy name is Christopher Rockefeller." 217 00:09:53,763 --> 00:09:56,343 (murmurs) 218 00:09:56,343 --> 00:09:58,213 Blame yourself. 219 00:09:58,213 --> 00:09:59,713 You can't tell me for a minute 220 00:09:59,713 --> 00:10:01,203 you just think I'm Rockefeller. 221 00:10:01,203 --> 00:10:03,343 So that means you lost million, 222 00:10:03,343 --> 00:10:05,043 you have to lose it because, 223 00:10:05,043 --> 00:10:07,143 from the beginning, you shouldn't have it. 224 00:10:11,063 --> 00:10:16,063 -: Well, "I can only con somebody who is greedy, 225 00:10:16,370 --> 00:10:20,410 "I can only con somebody who is dishonest, 226 00:10:20,410 --> 00:10:22,887 "so therefore, it's not my fault, 227 00:10:22,887 --> 00:10:24,628 "it's their fault." 228 00:10:24,628 --> 00:10:26,343 That's self-deception. 229 00:10:26,343 --> 00:10:27,203 They've all got it, 230 00:10:27,203 --> 00:10:29,623 they've all got their own story, haven't they? 231 00:10:29,623 --> 00:10:33,664 And what these stories just function to do, I think, 232 00:10:33,664 --> 00:10:36,033 is just to give them permission 233 00:10:36,033 --> 00:10:38,163 to do what they want. 234 00:10:38,163 --> 00:10:39,843 -: Well, the great philosopher. Homer Simpson, 235 00:10:39,843 --> 00:10:41,550 once said, "It takes two to lie. 236 00:10:41,550 --> 00:10:43,483 "One to lie, and one to listen." 237 00:10:43,483 --> 00:10:45,343 We often cooperate in the lie. 238 00:10:45,343 --> 00:10:48,073 We want the free lunch, we want the great deal. 239 00:10:48,073 --> 00:10:51,153 -: People want something to believe in 240 00:10:51,153 --> 00:10:52,416 at the end of the day. 241 00:10:58,193 --> 00:11:01,063 Okay, so when was the first time then that you made 242 00:11:01,063 --> 00:11:03,858 a significant amount of money? -: The building. 243 00:11:03,858 --> 00:11:04,803 -: Tell me about it. 244 00:11:04,803 --> 00:11:05,666 -: Pretty easy. 245 00:11:07,698 --> 00:11:10,296 There's a building under 16 (indistinct) in Paris. 246 00:11:12,253 --> 00:11:14,973 By the time, I did have a girlfriend, 247 00:11:14,973 --> 00:11:16,606 the spouse owned the building. 248 00:11:17,483 --> 00:11:20,683 -: So that's how you got access to the documents? 249 00:11:20,683 --> 00:11:21,853 -: Yeah, that's it. 250 00:11:23,452 --> 00:11:24,602 I get the notary paper. 251 00:11:26,949 --> 00:11:30,783 I didn't sell the building, fully priced building, 252 00:11:30,783 --> 00:11:32,006 I sell the down payment. 253 00:11:34,191 --> 00:11:35,294 So they check the paper, 254 00:11:35,294 --> 00:11:36,127 and I get the money. 255 00:11:36,127 --> 00:11:39,933 -: You make it sound so easy. -: It's very easy. 256 00:11:39,933 --> 00:11:42,666 -: Right, and did, at any point, you think, 257 00:11:43,932 --> 00:11:47,270 "Wow, this is a lot of money. 258 00:11:47,270 --> 00:11:50,736 "This is going to impact that person. 259 00:11:53,690 --> 00:11:56,033 "It's going to hurt that person"? 260 00:11:56,033 --> 00:11:56,866 -: No. 261 00:11:59,842 --> 00:12:03,133 -: This is going to impact that person. 262 00:12:03,133 --> 00:12:05,272 It's going to hurt that person. 263 00:12:05,272 --> 00:12:06,105 -: No. 264 00:12:06,105 --> 00:12:08,003 -: Yeah, so let's go back frame by frame. 265 00:12:09,108 --> 00:12:11,233 Now, he's shaking his head no, 266 00:12:11,233 --> 00:12:13,806 watch what you see in the beginning of this. 267 00:12:14,803 --> 00:12:18,696 Okay, so what was that movement right there? 268 00:12:21,673 --> 00:12:23,643 -: It looks like a nod. 269 00:12:23,643 --> 00:12:24,633 -: It was a nod. 270 00:12:24,633 --> 00:12:27,851 It was sort of conflicted, and then it went to a yes. 271 00:12:27,851 --> 00:12:28,952 So when he's asked about 272 00:12:28,952 --> 00:12:31,513 whether he hurt somebody, whatever, 273 00:12:31,513 --> 00:12:33,923 his head starts to tell you a different story 274 00:12:33,923 --> 00:12:35,473 than his words, 275 00:12:35,473 --> 00:12:37,513 but he kind of catches himself 276 00:12:37,513 --> 00:12:39,126 and then clarifies it. 277 00:12:39,126 --> 00:12:41,866 What that suggests was there's a conflict. 278 00:12:41,866 --> 00:12:45,257 So as the word "yes," whatever comes here, 279 00:12:45,257 --> 00:12:46,893 you're more likely to leak that. 280 00:12:46,893 --> 00:12:49,553 That's where these micro-expressions pop out. 281 00:12:49,553 --> 00:12:50,693 And so, you realize, 282 00:12:50,693 --> 00:12:52,493 it's revealing more information 283 00:12:52,493 --> 00:12:54,063 about people's inner states 284 00:12:54,063 --> 00:12:55,423 than you might get in just simply 285 00:12:55,423 --> 00:12:56,643 a face-to-face interview. 286 00:12:56,643 --> 00:13:00,513 And so, therefore, this suggests the merits of this approach 287 00:13:00,513 --> 00:13:03,583 in terms of trying to understand human beings 288 00:13:03,583 --> 00:13:05,686 of whatever form that they come in. 289 00:13:22,683 --> 00:13:25,763 -: Can we talk about your first wife? 290 00:13:25,763 --> 00:13:27,703 -: I met her, I fell in love with her, 291 00:13:27,703 --> 00:13:28,776 was a great woman. 292 00:13:29,863 --> 00:13:34,193 -: I was working in a bar 293 00:13:34,193 --> 00:13:36,013 as a coat check girl. 294 00:13:36,013 --> 00:13:39,883 And the only reason I really stood out to him is 295 00:13:39,883 --> 00:13:44,213 because after it would die down, 296 00:13:44,213 --> 00:13:46,043 I would read. 297 00:13:46,043 --> 00:13:49,933 I guess, the basis of our first conversation was 298 00:13:49,933 --> 00:13:51,426 pretty serious. 299 00:13:52,523 --> 00:13:57,523 -: Love is a big range, so I just love her. 300 00:13:59,193 --> 00:14:00,163 -: And then, afterwards, 301 00:14:00,163 --> 00:14:03,683 he would come in, night after night after night. 302 00:14:03,683 --> 00:14:06,313 But we had chemistry, that is for sure. 303 00:14:06,313 --> 00:14:08,283 -: She make me learn English, 304 00:14:08,283 --> 00:14:09,553 because I didn't speak English. 305 00:14:09,553 --> 00:14:10,805 Because I love her, 306 00:14:10,805 --> 00:14:13,386 so I love to speak in English with her. 307 00:14:16,593 --> 00:14:19,244 -: The con-artist has to overcome 308 00:14:19,244 --> 00:14:22,513 any of their own objections 309 00:14:22,513 --> 00:14:25,823 to what they know is criminal behavior, 310 00:14:25,823 --> 00:14:27,843 so how do they do that? 311 00:14:27,843 --> 00:14:30,553 Well, what they do is they lie to themselves. 312 00:14:30,553 --> 00:14:32,953 So before they've lied to anybody else, 313 00:14:32,953 --> 00:14:34,606 they have lied to themselves. 314 00:14:40,113 --> 00:14:41,873 -: He made up so many stories. 315 00:14:41,873 --> 00:14:43,113 They were fabulous. 316 00:14:43,113 --> 00:14:45,093 I mean, fabulous stories. 317 00:14:45,093 --> 00:14:50,093 Like, one of them was his dad was a multimillionaire m... 318 00:14:52,897 --> 00:14:54,233 He was very grandiose about 319 00:14:54,233 --> 00:14:56,013 how serious his parents were, 320 00:14:56,013 --> 00:14:58,313 and they were all about education. 321 00:14:58,313 --> 00:14:59,583 How sad is that, right? 322 00:14:59,583 --> 00:15:02,966 That's almost the exact opposite of what he had. 323 00:15:08,403 --> 00:15:10,473 -: I understand that you were born into 324 00:15:10,473 --> 00:15:13,853 really quite difficult circumstances. 325 00:15:13,853 --> 00:15:15,203 Can you tell me about them? 326 00:15:16,233 --> 00:15:17,957 -: It's difficult, for sure, 327 00:15:17,957 --> 00:15:20,693 but I grew up from a poor background. 328 00:15:20,693 --> 00:15:23,653 -: Your father had problems with alcohol? 329 00:15:23,653 --> 00:15:24,713 -: Yeah, he did. 330 00:15:24,713 --> 00:15:26,938 -: Yeah, can you tell me about those? 331 00:15:26,938 --> 00:15:29,613 -: What I can tell you about somebody 332 00:15:29,613 --> 00:15:31,036 that have a problem with alcohol? 333 00:15:31,036 --> 00:15:32,116 He is drinking too much. 334 00:15:35,433 --> 00:15:38,416 -: My father used to be dark haired, hard worker. 335 00:15:39,343 --> 00:15:41,756 Tough guy, not an easy guy. 336 00:15:42,731 --> 00:15:47,731 And I saw him to drinking, heavy drinking, 337 00:15:49,693 --> 00:15:51,415 kind of violent. 338 00:15:51,415 --> 00:15:55,312 So I saw the depravation in my father, 339 00:15:55,312 --> 00:15:57,933 and that did hurt me deeply. 340 00:15:57,933 --> 00:16:00,123 -: Do you remember feeling afraid at times? 341 00:16:00,123 --> 00:16:02,083 -: Of course. -: Yeah, helpless? 342 00:16:02,083 --> 00:16:02,986 -: Who will not be? 343 00:16:03,954 --> 00:16:05,604 -: And your mother also, I expect? 344 00:16:06,563 --> 00:16:08,306 -: Yeah, my mother also. 345 00:16:17,923 --> 00:16:22,446 -: Your mother, did she end up forced into prostitution? 346 00:16:23,463 --> 00:16:25,003 -: She's not been forced, 347 00:16:25,003 --> 00:16:26,246 she did on his own. 348 00:16:28,313 --> 00:16:30,723 I think maybe she need because 349 00:16:30,723 --> 00:16:33,486 it just survival way. 350 00:16:38,333 --> 00:16:40,033 -: And how would you feel as an adult now 351 00:16:40,033 --> 00:16:41,999 about all of that? 352 00:16:41,999 --> 00:16:43,549 That's difficult circumstances. 353 00:16:44,855 --> 00:16:45,875 -: I love my father. 354 00:16:45,875 --> 00:16:48,996 I can't excuse him for his behavior. 355 00:16:50,843 --> 00:16:52,326 Concerning my mother, 356 00:16:53,403 --> 00:16:57,373 I'm no any judgment on what she did to prostitution, 357 00:16:57,373 --> 00:16:59,953 I don't make any statement on what she did, 358 00:16:59,953 --> 00:17:04,563 but I have hard time to understanding her. 359 00:17:04,563 --> 00:17:05,893 A mother who's... 360 00:17:05,893 --> 00:17:07,739 Calling them a mother, 361 00:17:07,739 --> 00:17:09,743 will not try to get emotion, 362 00:17:09,743 --> 00:17:11,076 try to get affection. 363 00:17:17,443 --> 00:17:20,223 -: I was so interested to hear his 364 00:17:20,223 --> 00:17:25,223 very early history because, to me, 365 00:17:25,633 --> 00:17:27,343 I think what is important is how 366 00:17:27,343 --> 00:17:29,813 he's made sense of that history, 367 00:17:29,813 --> 00:17:31,983 because a lot of people come from a poor background 368 00:17:31,983 --> 00:17:34,853 and they don't end up as prolific con artists, 369 00:17:34,853 --> 00:17:35,913 do they? 370 00:17:35,913 --> 00:17:37,993 But how he's made sense of that 371 00:17:37,993 --> 00:17:41,433 and how he's distorted that 372 00:17:41,433 --> 00:17:46,433 to justify and allow him to become a con-artist. 373 00:17:47,173 --> 00:17:50,793 -: Hindsight is always a fascinating element 374 00:17:50,793 --> 00:17:53,563 and aspect of all human beings, right? 375 00:17:53,563 --> 00:17:55,093 We can always look backwards 376 00:17:55,093 --> 00:17:57,213 and make anything make sense, 377 00:17:57,213 --> 00:18:00,713 but you do see some disgust with the mother 378 00:18:00,713 --> 00:18:03,896 and then, particularly, the aspect of mothering. 379 00:18:03,896 --> 00:18:05,452 The not quite making a judgment 380 00:18:05,452 --> 00:18:07,933 on the mother's choice of prostitution. 381 00:18:07,933 --> 00:18:08,803 -: Yeah and, of course, 382 00:18:08,803 --> 00:18:11,363 he's spent time thinking about this, 383 00:18:11,363 --> 00:18:14,252 and he's talked about this with a psychiatrist. 384 00:18:14,252 --> 00:18:17,483 So he's had time to construct 385 00:18:17,483 --> 00:18:20,033 his own story and narrative, 386 00:18:20,033 --> 00:18:22,092 hasn't he? -: That's the thing. 387 00:18:22,092 --> 00:18:22,925 I think he has a story, right? 388 00:18:22,925 --> 00:18:24,833 Every person who does something bad has 389 00:18:24,833 --> 00:18:26,718 to find a way in his mind 390 00:18:26,718 --> 00:18:27,551 to tell himself a story, 391 00:18:27,551 --> 00:18:28,384 why he's actually good. 392 00:18:28,384 --> 00:18:30,503 And I'm interested in how he forms the story. 393 00:18:34,903 --> 00:18:39,073 -: We build up our coping strategies in childhood 394 00:18:39,073 --> 00:18:40,443 and we take them with us 395 00:18:40,443 --> 00:18:42,423 as we move forward. 396 00:18:42,423 --> 00:18:45,637 Say that as a child, we fall over, 397 00:18:45,637 --> 00:18:48,073 maybe our mother will comfort us 398 00:18:48,073 --> 00:18:50,593 and we learn to soothe ourselves, 399 00:18:50,593 --> 00:18:52,673 or maybe we'll be punished for that 400 00:18:52,673 --> 00:18:55,513 or told not to show weakness. 401 00:18:55,513 --> 00:18:59,083 So we build up a range of coping strategies. 402 00:18:59,083 --> 00:19:03,943 It might be that we cope by turning on the charm 403 00:19:03,943 --> 00:19:06,395 and lying to get what we need. 404 00:19:06,395 --> 00:19:09,913 So those coping strategies tend 405 00:19:09,913 --> 00:19:14,053 to become core aspects of our personalities. 406 00:19:14,053 --> 00:19:16,273 And when the going gets tough as an adult, 407 00:19:16,273 --> 00:19:17,173 even though there's going to be 408 00:19:17,173 --> 00:19:19,843 a little bit of variation on the theme, 409 00:19:19,843 --> 00:19:23,083 we go back to those coping strategies 410 00:19:23,083 --> 00:19:25,626 that worked for us when we were children. 411 00:19:37,353 --> 00:19:39,703 -: The emotional angle on this is really fascinating, 412 00:19:39,703 --> 00:19:41,913 not only in terms of the ability 413 00:19:41,913 --> 00:19:43,003 to detect and read, 414 00:19:43,003 --> 00:19:44,963 'cause he would have to be. 415 00:19:44,963 --> 00:19:46,663 So people who are naturally good 416 00:19:46,663 --> 00:19:48,493 at detecting subtle emotions grow up 417 00:19:48,493 --> 00:19:51,323 in these environments with alcoholic parents 418 00:19:51,323 --> 00:19:54,393 or neighborhoods where there's ethnic strife, 419 00:19:54,393 --> 00:19:56,363 and they have to read very carefully, 420 00:19:56,363 --> 00:19:58,523 but also managing the emotions on this. 421 00:19:58,523 --> 00:20:00,773 And so, his life history suggests 422 00:20:00,773 --> 00:20:04,163 one or both of those things would be pushed for 423 00:20:04,163 --> 00:20:06,983 a little bit in him in order to survive 424 00:20:06,983 --> 00:20:08,713 in those particular environments. 425 00:20:08,713 --> 00:20:13,233 -: But it's that very unassuming part of him, 426 00:20:13,233 --> 00:20:16,241 that non-threatening presence that he is 427 00:20:16,241 --> 00:20:18,413 that draws on you. 428 00:20:18,413 --> 00:20:20,233 And actually, feel compassion for him. 429 00:20:20,233 --> 00:20:23,973 Maybe even sympathy at times. 430 00:20:23,973 --> 00:20:25,803 -: So I picked tests for him that 431 00:20:25,803 --> 00:20:29,343 intentionally would make me not interact with him 432 00:20:29,343 --> 00:20:31,103 on any kind of personal level, 433 00:20:31,103 --> 00:20:32,993 that will allow me to put him on the test 434 00:20:32,993 --> 00:20:34,013 in front of a computer, 435 00:20:34,013 --> 00:20:35,953 and the tests are standard, 436 00:20:35,953 --> 00:20:38,233 and they really tap into different aspects 437 00:20:38,233 --> 00:20:40,363 of the things I thought could be 438 00:20:40,363 --> 00:20:42,093 a part of his psyche. 439 00:20:42,093 --> 00:20:43,663 'Cause I don't think he is hostile, 440 00:20:43,663 --> 00:20:45,793 I don't think he really wants to hurt others. 441 00:20:45,793 --> 00:20:48,136 He just wants to benefit himself. 442 00:20:50,703 --> 00:20:54,013 EEG is a tool to measure brain activity. 443 00:20:54,013 --> 00:20:55,323 It looks like a swim cap, 444 00:20:55,323 --> 00:20:57,274 it has electrodes on it 445 00:20:57,274 --> 00:20:58,433 that you put on your surface of the head, 446 00:20:58,433 --> 00:21:01,533 and it listens to brain cells deep inside. 447 00:21:01,533 --> 00:21:04,833 In the brain, you have billions of small cells 448 00:21:04,833 --> 00:21:07,475 and they all speak, makes little sound 449 00:21:07,475 --> 00:21:11,138 that, in itself, is too weak for us understand. 450 00:21:11,138 --> 00:21:13,234 If enough of them speak together, 451 00:21:13,234 --> 00:21:15,073 the EEG will pick up on it. 452 00:21:15,073 --> 00:21:17,093 So it will register that something happened 453 00:21:17,093 --> 00:21:18,913 in this part, or in this part, 454 00:21:18,913 --> 00:21:20,496 or in this part. 455 00:21:20,496 --> 00:21:21,329 So when I give you a task, for instance, 456 00:21:21,329 --> 00:21:22,843 that shows you words 457 00:21:22,843 --> 00:21:24,773 and ask you to feel something, 458 00:21:24,773 --> 00:21:26,673 I know that the feelings are manifested 459 00:21:26,673 --> 00:21:28,573 in part of your brain that's in the temporal lobe, 460 00:21:28,573 --> 00:21:29,513 left and right, 461 00:21:29,513 --> 00:21:31,013 I have electrode sitting next to it. 462 00:21:31,013 --> 00:21:33,253 And what I'm looking for is to see if 463 00:21:33,253 --> 00:21:35,733 as soon as the word on the screen appears, 464 00:21:35,733 --> 00:21:37,463 that makes you, say, feel sad, 465 00:21:37,463 --> 00:21:40,683 the speed by which those electrodes get activity, 466 00:21:40,683 --> 00:21:43,908 moves from (whooshing sound) 467 00:21:43,908 --> 00:21:44,741 to (fast whooshing sound). 468 00:21:44,741 --> 00:21:45,730 We look at activity and we say, 469 00:21:45,730 --> 00:21:47,303 "Did the frequency change?" 470 00:21:47,303 --> 00:21:49,068 And when the word disappeared, 471 00:21:49,068 --> 00:21:50,653 "Did it go back to (whooshing)?" 472 00:21:50,653 --> 00:21:53,843 If that happens, I know that I picked up on 473 00:21:53,843 --> 00:21:55,593 you feeling something. 474 00:21:55,593 --> 00:21:57,073 And it could be even more complex 475 00:21:57,073 --> 00:21:59,003 because if it happens more on the left 476 00:21:59,003 --> 00:22:00,093 than on the right, 477 00:22:00,093 --> 00:22:02,173 I would say that you're feeling something positive. 478 00:22:02,173 --> 00:22:04,306 If it had been more on the right than on the left, 479 00:22:04,306 --> 00:22:05,139 I would say you're feeling something negative. 480 00:22:05,139 --> 00:22:07,613 We have similar measures for memory, 481 00:22:07,613 --> 00:22:11,433 for reward, for risk, for attention. 482 00:22:11,433 --> 00:22:14,784 And each measure has a thing that I expect, 483 00:22:14,784 --> 00:22:16,226 and a location I look for it. 484 00:22:17,673 --> 00:22:19,133 You're going to see on the screen 485 00:22:19,133 --> 00:22:20,891 a picture of a balloon. -: Okay. 486 00:22:20,891 --> 00:22:23,253 -: And there's one button you can press 487 00:22:23,253 --> 00:22:25,173 to inflate the balloon. 488 00:22:25,173 --> 00:22:26,403 And it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. 489 00:22:26,403 --> 00:22:28,353 As it gets bigger, you make more money. 490 00:22:32,626 --> 00:22:34,463 The thing is, you don't know, 491 00:22:34,463 --> 00:22:35,383 but at some point, 492 00:22:35,383 --> 00:22:36,483 it's going to explode. 493 00:22:38,103 --> 00:22:39,983 So you get nothing. 494 00:22:39,983 --> 00:22:42,213 No money because it exploded. -: (murmurs) 495 00:22:42,213 --> 00:22:44,087 -: But the one thing that's common 496 00:22:44,087 --> 00:22:45,766 to a lot people is that in the next trial, 497 00:22:46,705 --> 00:22:47,721 after it explodes, 498 00:22:47,721 --> 00:22:49,233 they become a lot risk averse, 499 00:22:49,233 --> 00:22:50,363 like they were kind of slapped 500 00:22:50,363 --> 00:22:52,233 on their hands for bad behavior. 501 00:22:52,233 --> 00:22:53,961 They don't want to try again. 502 00:22:53,961 --> 00:22:55,403 Try the third one. 503 00:22:55,403 --> 00:22:57,753 With him, there were no emotions here. 504 00:22:57,753 --> 00:22:59,563 He learned, like many people, 505 00:22:59,563 --> 00:23:00,823 what are the ranges. 506 00:23:00,823 --> 00:23:03,464 He realized that this size is the size 507 00:23:03,464 --> 00:23:04,805 that makes you money, 508 00:23:04,805 --> 00:23:05,638 where things explosive. 509 00:23:05,638 --> 00:23:07,606 And from then on, he stuck there. 510 00:23:14,113 --> 00:23:18,413 Okay, $13.90 is how much you made. 511 00:23:18,413 --> 00:23:20,583 Think that the most you tried was-- 512 00:23:20,583 --> 00:23:22,003 -: 30. -: Exactly. 513 00:23:22,003 --> 00:23:23,866 -: 30. -: Why did you stop there? 514 00:23:27,523 --> 00:23:29,033 -: I take a look, so I catch, 515 00:23:29,033 --> 00:23:30,333 I catch, I catch, I catch. 516 00:23:31,430 --> 00:23:33,633 -: He actually behaved in a very rational way, 517 00:23:33,633 --> 00:23:35,073 almost indifferent to the task. 518 00:23:35,073 --> 00:23:37,143 Meaning as soon as the task began, 519 00:23:37,143 --> 00:23:38,890 he told me what he's going to do in strategy, 520 00:23:38,890 --> 00:23:41,573 and he stuck to it without changing his mind. 521 00:23:41,573 --> 00:23:42,585 -: I would've never bet that. 522 00:23:42,585 --> 00:23:44,330 I, for sure, thought he would've taken 523 00:23:44,330 --> 00:23:45,253 that balloon right to the edge. 524 00:23:45,253 --> 00:23:47,850 -: He said to me, "I'm going to try to get 525 00:23:47,850 --> 00:23:49,470 "the same score all the time 526 00:23:49,470 --> 00:23:51,683 "without getting any risky behavior," 527 00:23:51,683 --> 00:23:53,633 and he did the same thing in 30 trials. 528 00:23:58,152 --> 00:24:01,016 -: So how did you end up in the orphanage then? 529 00:24:01,948 --> 00:24:03,263 How did that come about? 530 00:24:03,263 --> 00:24:05,243 -: I think I'd been, at the time, 531 00:24:05,243 --> 00:24:07,383 seven years, seven to eight year. 532 00:24:08,351 --> 00:24:10,511 The social system in France, at the time, 533 00:24:10,511 --> 00:24:12,273 they see that something is not working. 534 00:24:12,273 --> 00:24:14,661 That's how I get to the orphanage. 535 00:24:14,661 --> 00:24:17,670 You lost your freedom with no rules 536 00:24:17,670 --> 00:24:18,953 and no barrier. 537 00:24:18,953 --> 00:24:20,600 That's it, right there. 538 00:24:21,616 --> 00:24:25,493 -: So what are your memories of the orphanage? 539 00:24:37,925 --> 00:24:39,983 -: It's a hard feeling. 540 00:24:39,983 --> 00:24:42,943 It's a hurting feeling, 541 00:24:42,943 --> 00:24:47,526 it's nothing enjoyable. 542 00:24:51,393 --> 00:24:53,148 -: What do you make of that? 543 00:24:53,148 --> 00:24:55,267 Because it's always difficult 544 00:24:55,267 --> 00:24:58,326 when you are interviewing somebody 545 00:24:58,326 --> 00:25:03,196 who you know is a professional liar. 546 00:25:04,083 --> 00:25:07,843 I see genuine emotion there, do you agree? 547 00:25:07,843 --> 00:25:09,907 -: Yes, it is affecting him. 548 00:25:09,907 --> 00:25:13,463 And he will, at some point... 549 00:25:13,463 --> 00:25:16,853 You would expect to see even more emotion come out 550 00:25:16,853 --> 00:25:19,703 as the topic has pursued further. 551 00:25:19,703 --> 00:25:21,843 -: I didn't like it because I know 552 00:25:21,843 --> 00:25:23,133 that will make the difference 553 00:25:23,133 --> 00:25:24,673 with all the children. 554 00:25:24,673 --> 00:25:26,403 -: You felt that you would be judged 555 00:25:26,403 --> 00:25:28,543 as a result of being in the orphanage? 556 00:25:28,543 --> 00:25:30,303 -: I think I've been judged from the beginning 557 00:25:30,303 --> 00:25:32,669 because what I come from, 558 00:25:32,669 --> 00:25:36,383 so I know that will be another step on that. 559 00:25:36,383 --> 00:25:37,423 -: Okay. 560 00:25:37,423 --> 00:25:40,413 So it felt like a stigma? -: No. 561 00:25:40,413 --> 00:25:42,363 I have no problem to tell you where I come from, 562 00:25:42,363 --> 00:25:44,883 what I did, what I am. -: Why should you? 563 00:25:44,883 --> 00:25:45,933 -: I'm fine with that. 564 00:25:48,272 --> 00:25:53,272 -: So his willingness to push back makes you think 565 00:25:53,373 --> 00:25:54,863 he's done this before. 566 00:25:54,863 --> 00:25:58,088 There's some experience level here in doing this. 567 00:25:58,088 --> 00:25:59,523 But he's watching you 568 00:25:59,523 --> 00:26:01,486 in terms of how you react to that. 569 00:26:01,486 --> 00:26:06,486 -: That would force other people maybe back a little. 570 00:26:06,783 --> 00:26:10,733 To me, Christophe is somebody who felt 571 00:26:10,733 --> 00:26:13,228 that he was an underdog, 572 00:26:13,228 --> 00:26:14,203 felt that he didn't have any status, 573 00:26:14,203 --> 00:26:16,673 he didn't have any power. 574 00:26:16,673 --> 00:26:19,913 And his con artistry, I think, 575 00:26:19,913 --> 00:26:23,623 is about trying to redress that balance, isn't it? 576 00:26:23,623 --> 00:26:27,093 So "I have succeeded despite the odds." 577 00:26:27,093 --> 00:26:28,785 Should we take a look at more? 578 00:26:28,785 --> 00:26:31,003 -: There's nothing to describe more to that, 579 00:26:31,003 --> 00:26:33,209 to say more to that. 580 00:26:33,209 --> 00:26:36,453 I think the whole sentence about it is... 581 00:26:40,227 --> 00:26:42,063 Is just hard. 582 00:26:43,843 --> 00:26:46,553 -: When he talked about that, 583 00:26:46,553 --> 00:26:47,813 his chin pushed up, 584 00:26:47,813 --> 00:26:49,713 his lip corners came down right before 585 00:26:49,713 --> 00:26:50,966 this particular segment. 586 00:26:51,943 --> 00:26:53,143 That's sadness. 587 00:26:53,143 --> 00:26:56,023 It's about himself, it's not about others. 588 00:26:56,023 --> 00:26:57,943 So that's another key distinction 589 00:26:57,943 --> 00:26:59,633 that you get here, right? 590 00:26:59,633 --> 00:27:02,603 Talking about his victims didn't really show much. 591 00:27:02,603 --> 00:27:04,608 And in fact, that's their fault. 592 00:27:04,608 --> 00:27:05,688 They were greedy. 593 00:27:05,688 --> 00:27:06,853 -: I think that people believe 594 00:27:06,853 --> 00:27:09,363 that you are either a psychopath, 595 00:27:09,363 --> 00:27:10,473 or you're not. 596 00:27:10,473 --> 00:27:13,048 And actually, it's a continuum. 597 00:27:13,048 --> 00:27:16,653 And look, Christoph is definitely 598 00:27:16,653 --> 00:27:17,853 on that continuum. 599 00:27:17,853 --> 00:27:22,373 You can't deny that when you look at his history. 600 00:27:22,373 --> 00:27:25,603 -: And to see that that's early damage is still with him. 601 00:27:25,603 --> 00:27:27,423 I mean, it's still in him 602 00:27:27,423 --> 00:27:28,663 when you bring him back to this. 603 00:27:28,663 --> 00:27:32,376 So that has sort of surprised me a little bit. 604 00:27:36,103 --> 00:27:37,773 -: So you ran from the orphanage... 605 00:27:37,773 --> 00:27:38,983 -: Yeah, I always ran. 606 00:27:38,983 --> 00:27:42,153 -: And where did you run to? -: I ran to Paris. 607 00:27:42,153 --> 00:27:45,903 -: Is it the case that you were homeless at that point? 608 00:27:45,903 --> 00:27:47,350 -: That's correct. 609 00:27:47,350 --> 00:27:51,363 -: And it's then, isn't it, that you create 610 00:27:51,363 --> 00:27:54,816 your first fake identity? 611 00:27:56,643 --> 00:27:57,476 -: Yeah. 612 00:28:01,020 --> 00:28:04,593 -: And this identity was a prince? 613 00:28:04,593 --> 00:28:06,383 -: Yeah, a prince, (indistinct). 614 00:28:06,383 --> 00:28:08,916 -: Okay, a Russian prince. 615 00:28:10,713 --> 00:28:13,103 Do you speak Russian? -: Absolutely not. 616 00:28:13,103 --> 00:28:14,693 -: No, how's your Russian accent? 617 00:28:14,693 --> 00:28:16,503 -: I never didn't make any Russian accent, 618 00:28:16,503 --> 00:28:17,713 I've just been a prince. 619 00:28:17,713 --> 00:28:20,653 -: So what I can't quite understand is 620 00:28:20,653 --> 00:28:24,547 how did you manage to convince other people 621 00:28:24,547 --> 00:28:27,860 that you were a Russian prince? 622 00:28:27,860 --> 00:28:31,264 -: I didn't think I've been successful on that one, no. 623 00:28:31,264 --> 00:28:32,764 -: So why continue? 624 00:28:34,383 --> 00:28:37,423 -: I have to keep doing it to try to survive, 625 00:28:37,423 --> 00:28:38,696 so I keep doing it. 626 00:28:40,223 --> 00:28:44,519 -: Christopher Rockefeller came to my house in Southampton 627 00:28:44,519 --> 00:28:47,473 and he came with his secretary. 628 00:28:47,473 --> 00:28:49,230 They want to see... 629 00:28:49,230 --> 00:28:50,603 He wants to see my artwork. 630 00:28:50,603 --> 00:28:54,160 He said, "This painting could go well 631 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,890 "next to my Pissarro. 632 00:28:56,890 --> 00:29:01,033 "This one, next to my (indistinct), or Picasso." 633 00:29:01,033 --> 00:29:03,826 Suddenly he got a phone call. 634 00:29:03,826 --> 00:29:05,390 "Oh, President Clinton. 635 00:29:05,390 --> 00:29:07,245 "Hi Bill, how are you?" 636 00:29:07,245 --> 00:29:11,367 I went to the kitchen to prepare 637 00:29:11,367 --> 00:29:13,573 a glass of wine, 638 00:29:13,573 --> 00:29:14,863 and we don't have a good wine. 639 00:29:14,863 --> 00:29:18,801 We have a carafe of Gallo, 640 00:29:18,801 --> 00:29:20,863 which is a very cheap wine. 641 00:29:20,863 --> 00:29:23,893 Christopher said, "(speaking foreign language)." 642 00:29:25,701 --> 00:29:29,722 The (indistinct), the Pissarro, Picasso, 643 00:29:29,722 --> 00:29:34,103 the call from Mr. Bill Clinton, 644 00:29:34,103 --> 00:29:35,685 the Bordeaux. 645 00:29:35,685 --> 00:29:38,106 I started getting suspicious. 646 00:29:40,363 --> 00:29:44,863 -: Yeah, if you're lying overtly perfect lie, 647 00:29:44,863 --> 00:29:46,543 then you have only one story. 648 00:29:46,543 --> 00:29:49,707 You don't know how the room really looks, 649 00:29:49,707 --> 00:29:51,170 you only know the one that you created 650 00:29:51,170 --> 00:29:52,546 so you can tell the same story 651 00:29:52,546 --> 00:29:53,503 again and again, and again. 652 00:29:53,503 --> 00:29:54,963 The same order, the same sequence, 653 00:29:54,963 --> 00:29:56,583 the same colors, the same visuals, 654 00:29:56,583 --> 00:29:58,809 because that's the only one you know. 655 00:29:58,809 --> 00:29:59,813 If someone asks you, 656 00:29:59,813 --> 00:30:01,053 "Hey, tell me the same story backwards," 657 00:30:01,053 --> 00:30:01,933 you have no idea. 658 00:30:01,933 --> 00:30:03,643 -: He comes in on the jet, 659 00:30:03,643 --> 00:30:06,603 he's got the fancy clothes, the expensive jewelry, 660 00:30:06,603 --> 00:30:09,553 he drops $10,000 in a bar. 661 00:30:09,553 --> 00:30:12,123 And that's not really him. 662 00:30:12,123 --> 00:30:14,863 so he's lying without saying a word. 663 00:30:14,863 --> 00:30:16,813 Someone comes up, says, "I'm a rich person." 664 00:30:16,813 --> 00:30:18,053 Do we believe them, yes or no? 665 00:30:18,053 --> 00:30:20,693 Well, you feel you have the right now to be skeptical 666 00:30:20,693 --> 00:30:22,333 because they've made that claim. 667 00:30:22,333 --> 00:30:24,363 But when they've just simply got the background, 668 00:30:24,363 --> 00:30:26,133 it's a very clever sort of a way 669 00:30:26,133 --> 00:30:28,863 to allow you to mislead yourself. 670 00:30:28,863 --> 00:30:30,823 -: So Rocancourt has had 671 00:30:30,823 --> 00:30:32,333 quite a while in prison, 672 00:30:32,333 --> 00:30:36,703 and he took the time to reflect on his own story. 673 00:30:36,703 --> 00:30:41,403 So what we're seeing are the parts of the story 674 00:30:41,403 --> 00:30:44,623 that are more presentable. -: Polished. 675 00:30:44,623 --> 00:30:47,243 -: More presentable. -: Palatable. 676 00:30:47,243 --> 00:30:51,213 -: So tell me about this shooting that took place in LA. 677 00:30:51,213 --> 00:30:53,333 -: I'm with Mickey Rourke at 678 00:30:53,333 --> 00:30:55,393 The (murmurs), a nightclub. 679 00:30:55,393 --> 00:30:56,963 This guy coming to the table, 680 00:30:56,963 --> 00:31:01,063 and the guy's get a little bit verbally violent. 681 00:31:01,063 --> 00:31:01,906 -: Was he alone? 682 00:31:02,773 --> 00:31:04,923 -: They come with two, three guys behind them. 683 00:31:04,923 --> 00:31:07,143 -: So your life was in danger? 684 00:31:07,143 --> 00:31:09,502 -: The next day, I grabbed a piece, 685 00:31:09,502 --> 00:31:10,745 a nine millimeter. 686 00:31:10,745 --> 00:31:13,496 I'm driving on Barry and Wilshire. 687 00:31:14,460 --> 00:31:16,846 There's a car coming behind me. 688 00:31:16,846 --> 00:31:19,933 So I see the guys, I grabbed the piece, 689 00:31:19,933 --> 00:31:22,000 and I shot him. 690 00:31:23,897 --> 00:31:25,833 -: Okay, so you shot a man. 691 00:31:25,833 --> 00:31:28,423 Have you got any thoughts or feelings about that? 692 00:31:28,423 --> 00:31:30,081 -: Let me ask you; 693 00:31:30,081 --> 00:31:32,299 What feeling I will have if he shot me? 694 00:31:32,299 --> 00:31:35,143 -: So it was survival again for you? 695 00:31:35,143 --> 00:31:36,966 -: I'm glad I shot him. 696 00:31:39,353 --> 00:31:44,353 -: He talks about his victims as being deserving 697 00:31:46,263 --> 00:31:47,203 of what happened to them 698 00:31:47,203 --> 00:31:48,733 because they're greedy, 699 00:31:48,733 --> 00:31:51,743 and he's become a folk hero, hasn't he? 700 00:31:51,743 --> 00:31:53,923 And essentially, he's making a really good living, 701 00:31:53,923 --> 00:31:55,463 a much better living than I am, 702 00:31:55,463 --> 00:31:57,833 out of this story, 703 00:31:57,833 --> 00:32:00,664 this narrative of himself. 704 00:32:00,664 --> 00:32:01,833 -: Again, some of this is self-justification, 705 00:32:01,833 --> 00:32:03,943 and you need that in order to execute 706 00:32:03,943 --> 00:32:04,953 these kinds of crimes 707 00:32:04,953 --> 00:32:06,463 'cause if you felt really bad about it, 708 00:32:06,463 --> 00:32:07,413 you wouldn't do it. 709 00:32:09,473 --> 00:32:14,473 -: Do you think that a lot of myth is built up around you? 710 00:32:14,663 --> 00:32:16,749 Because when you came out of prison, 711 00:32:16,749 --> 00:32:19,883 you went back to France, 712 00:32:19,883 --> 00:32:22,213 but is it true to say that you returned 713 00:32:22,213 --> 00:32:23,706 as a bit of a celebrity? 714 00:32:24,608 --> 00:32:28,324 -: Well, I think my name is known, yes. 715 00:32:28,324 --> 00:32:31,573 But celebrity is foolishness, 716 00:32:31,573 --> 00:32:33,403 it don't mean nothing. 717 00:32:33,403 --> 00:32:34,853 -: What I felt was, 718 00:32:34,853 --> 00:32:36,303 at the end of that interview, 719 00:32:36,303 --> 00:32:38,183 that I'd been thrown into this state 720 00:32:38,183 --> 00:32:40,003 of cognitive dissonance, 721 00:32:40,003 --> 00:32:45,003 of having two totally conflicting beliefs about him. 722 00:32:45,243 --> 00:32:47,103 Because I really liked him. 723 00:32:47,103 --> 00:32:51,543 I thought he was a nice guy, 724 00:32:51,543 --> 00:32:53,856 I enjoyed spending time with him, 725 00:32:55,093 --> 00:32:58,793 and yet he does things, 726 00:32:58,793 --> 00:33:00,703 or has done things in the past, 727 00:33:00,703 --> 00:33:02,163 let's be fair to him, 728 00:33:02,163 --> 00:33:06,263 that absolutely go against his own stated set 729 00:33:06,263 --> 00:33:08,236 of values and morals. 730 00:33:12,006 --> 00:33:14,423 (warm music) 731 00:33:24,123 --> 00:33:27,153 -: This test you actually do against someone else. 732 00:33:27,153 --> 00:33:30,953 So it's a competition on money. 733 00:33:30,953 --> 00:33:32,958 You can press the letter "A" 734 00:33:32,958 --> 00:33:35,379 many, many times, as fast as you can. 735 00:33:35,379 --> 00:33:36,743 When it gets to 100, 736 00:33:36,743 --> 00:33:38,403 you get one point. 737 00:33:38,403 --> 00:33:39,773 Every now and then, 738 00:33:39,773 --> 00:33:42,493 they can steal points from you, okay? 739 00:33:42,493 --> 00:33:43,503 -: How you stop that? 740 00:33:43,503 --> 00:33:45,893 -: Okay, if you press the letter C, 741 00:33:45,893 --> 00:33:48,760 you get a shield for a few seconds. 742 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,043 -: How you know they steal it? 743 00:33:51,043 --> 00:33:53,012 -: So you will know that they steal it 744 00:33:53,012 --> 00:33:54,063 because you will see that the number 745 00:33:54,063 --> 00:33:56,893 that you have is going to blank in red, 746 00:33:56,893 --> 00:33:58,683 and it's gonna go down. -: (indistinct) 747 00:33:58,683 --> 00:34:00,173 So I can't not steal from him? 748 00:34:00,173 --> 00:34:03,283 -: Okay, if you press B 10 times-- 749 00:34:03,283 --> 00:34:05,003 -: Yeah, I steal from him? 750 00:34:05,003 --> 00:34:06,579 -: He goes down one point. 751 00:34:06,579 --> 00:34:07,412 You don't get it, 752 00:34:07,412 --> 00:34:08,783 you just punish him. 753 00:34:08,783 --> 00:34:11,423 -: Should I care? -: We'll see. 754 00:34:11,423 --> 00:34:12,503 -: If I don't care, 755 00:34:12,503 --> 00:34:15,097 will it make difference? -: You will tell me. 756 00:34:15,097 --> 00:34:16,101 Some people do. 757 00:34:16,101 --> 00:34:17,316 You will see. 758 00:34:17,316 --> 00:34:19,062 You're supposed to either try 759 00:34:19,062 --> 00:34:20,573 to make more profit yourself 760 00:34:20,573 --> 00:34:22,383 or try to punish the other person 761 00:34:22,383 --> 00:34:24,213 if they steal your profits. 762 00:34:24,213 --> 00:34:26,898 And there are essentially three situations; 763 00:34:26,898 --> 00:34:28,233 you can try to make more money, 764 00:34:28,233 --> 00:34:29,603 try to hurt the other person 765 00:34:29,603 --> 00:34:30,753 who steals your money, 766 00:34:30,753 --> 00:34:32,262 or try to protect yourself from 767 00:34:32,262 --> 00:34:33,735 the other person stealing your money. 768 00:34:33,735 --> 00:34:34,983 Those are the three options and you have to choose 769 00:34:34,983 --> 00:34:36,063 which ones to take, 770 00:34:36,063 --> 00:34:38,146 and he entirely ignored the other person. 771 00:34:43,033 --> 00:34:44,483 He didn't look at the other person, 772 00:34:44,483 --> 00:34:45,623 didn't respond to that person 773 00:34:45,623 --> 00:34:46,823 actually stealing from him. 774 00:34:46,823 --> 00:34:48,953 Not behaviorally, but not in his brain. 775 00:34:48,953 --> 00:34:51,096 He just focused on earning more money. 776 00:34:55,703 --> 00:34:56,536 That's it. 777 00:34:57,607 --> 00:34:58,440 We did it. 778 00:34:58,440 --> 00:34:59,273 Good job. 779 00:35:00,793 --> 00:35:01,793 We finished. 780 00:35:01,793 --> 00:35:03,348 -: He win? -: You get a 10, 781 00:35:03,348 --> 00:35:04,803 I'll check what he did. 782 00:35:04,803 --> 00:35:08,280 Let me get this off of you. 783 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:09,723 You can take it off. 784 00:35:09,723 --> 00:35:12,564 -: I didn't punish nobody. -: You didn't punish anyone. 785 00:35:12,564 --> 00:35:14,933 -: I'm no interest in to punish. 786 00:35:14,933 --> 00:35:18,203 -: There's no part of him that was upset 787 00:35:18,203 --> 00:35:20,003 that something or someone else is 788 00:35:20,003 --> 00:35:22,593 actually affecting his performance 789 00:35:22,593 --> 00:35:23,803 that would make him respond, 790 00:35:23,803 --> 00:35:25,463 which is unusual. 791 00:35:25,463 --> 00:35:27,443 Many people, whether they want it or not, 792 00:35:27,443 --> 00:35:28,593 they respond negatively 793 00:35:28,593 --> 00:35:29,923 to someone stealing their money, 794 00:35:29,923 --> 00:35:32,613 and they want to either retribution 795 00:35:32,613 --> 00:35:35,333 or somehow revenge. or something that will respond, 796 00:35:35,333 --> 00:35:37,453 recognize, that they were hurt. 797 00:35:37,453 --> 00:35:38,286 He did not. 798 00:35:42,203 --> 00:35:45,020 So I ran a battery of tests with him 799 00:35:45,020 --> 00:35:48,443 and he actually behaved in a very rational way. 800 00:35:48,443 --> 00:35:49,276 And he told me right away, 801 00:35:49,276 --> 00:35:50,680 "I can see that this is about deception. 802 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:51,653 "I'm not going to be deceptive." 803 00:35:51,653 --> 00:35:52,573 And that's it, from then on, 804 00:35:52,573 --> 00:35:54,653 he took the correct answer all the time. 805 00:35:54,653 --> 00:35:57,503 So he very carefully figured out what I want 806 00:35:57,503 --> 00:35:59,323 and did exactly what he wanted throughout. 807 00:35:59,323 --> 00:36:00,883 -: So almost like he was putting 808 00:36:00,883 --> 00:36:03,433 a bit of a shield over his brain on you. 809 00:36:03,433 --> 00:36:05,123 Even though he engaged the tasks, 810 00:36:05,123 --> 00:36:08,476 he wasn't going to really engage the tasks. 811 00:36:10,693 --> 00:36:12,237 Wow. 812 00:36:12,237 --> 00:36:14,546 I guess that makes sense in some ways. 813 00:36:17,978 --> 00:36:22,978 (dramatic music) (background chatter) 814 00:36:36,403 --> 00:36:40,263 -: So you didn't choose ever to punish them. 815 00:36:40,263 --> 00:36:42,953 So they stole money from you, 816 00:36:42,953 --> 00:36:44,183 you had no response there, 817 00:36:44,183 --> 00:36:45,833 meaning I saw no difference. 818 00:36:45,833 --> 00:36:49,493 So it's as if you didn't care at all 819 00:36:49,493 --> 00:36:52,275 if someone steals from you. -: All right. 820 00:36:52,275 --> 00:36:53,973 -: You think you're emotional person? 821 00:36:53,973 --> 00:36:57,053 -: No, I don't think I'm very much emotional person. 822 00:36:57,053 --> 00:36:58,493 -: Yeah, so I asked you afterwards 823 00:36:58,493 --> 00:37:01,233 to fill these questionnaires of like a personality, 824 00:37:01,233 --> 00:37:02,863 and I think what came out is the same thing, 825 00:37:02,863 --> 00:37:04,593 that you're extremely not emotional. 826 00:37:04,593 --> 00:37:05,426 There's like a s... 827 00:37:05,426 --> 00:37:07,533 It goes from zero to 100 828 00:37:07,533 --> 00:37:10,093 and you got four percent on emotionality. 829 00:37:10,093 --> 00:37:11,256 And the interesting thing is that 830 00:37:11,256 --> 00:37:13,733 you got the highest score I've ever seen 831 00:37:13,733 --> 00:37:16,763 on a measure called a "conscientiousness," 832 00:37:16,763 --> 00:37:19,077 like how much you follow rules 833 00:37:19,077 --> 00:37:21,143 and you care about other. 834 00:37:21,143 --> 00:37:22,813 I would not guess that 835 00:37:22,813 --> 00:37:24,373 for someone in your profession, 836 00:37:24,373 --> 00:37:26,558 that you care about rules so much. 837 00:37:26,558 --> 00:37:28,753 -: Oh, that is interesting. -: You got 92 out of 100 838 00:37:28,753 --> 00:37:30,393 on conscientiousness. 839 00:37:30,393 --> 00:37:35,393 It's the type of score that I would imagine a person 840 00:37:37,353 --> 00:37:39,253 who's extremely organized. 841 00:37:39,253 --> 00:37:42,373 -: Maybe I should have been a district attorney. 842 00:37:42,373 --> 00:37:45,012 Maybe I have succeed very well. 843 00:37:45,012 --> 00:37:47,393 -: 52 years of different behavior, 844 00:37:47,393 --> 00:37:49,613 but you really are conscientiousness. 845 00:37:49,613 --> 00:37:50,446 It's not too late. 846 00:37:50,446 --> 00:37:52,326 -: It is never too late for nothing. 847 00:37:58,192 --> 00:38:02,557 -: Christoph seems to have really contradictory 848 00:38:02,557 --> 00:38:06,993 ambivalent thoughts, attitudes, and beliefs. 849 00:38:06,993 --> 00:38:08,763 So he exists in this state of 850 00:38:08,763 --> 00:38:11,513 what we would call cognitive dissonance. 851 00:38:11,513 --> 00:38:15,249 So he claims to feel contempt 852 00:38:15,249 --> 00:38:19,063 for the people that he has conned, 853 00:38:19,063 --> 00:38:21,183 and yet he wanted to move into 854 00:38:21,183 --> 00:38:23,554 that social circle, didn't he? 855 00:38:23,554 --> 00:38:25,013 He wanted to be part of them. 856 00:38:25,013 --> 00:38:27,493 -: But dissonance that deals with an element of 857 00:38:27,493 --> 00:38:29,253 you've done something, often, right? 858 00:38:29,253 --> 00:38:30,933 Now you've got to justify it 859 00:38:30,933 --> 00:38:32,343 and you can't change what you did, 860 00:38:32,343 --> 00:38:34,403 so you need to rewrite it in your head, 861 00:38:34,403 --> 00:38:37,689 so it becomes consonant rather than dissonant. 862 00:38:37,689 --> 00:38:39,733 And he has an ability to do it, 863 00:38:39,733 --> 00:38:42,673 but the thing I wonder about is does he really 864 00:38:42,673 --> 00:38:44,563 then believe that? 865 00:38:44,563 --> 00:38:47,093 -: Why is he here if he's... 866 00:38:47,093 --> 00:38:49,833 Is it just to play the game, 867 00:38:49,833 --> 00:38:51,393 to see if he can fool us? 868 00:38:51,393 --> 00:38:55,003 Is it, do you think, that he wants to see 869 00:38:55,003 --> 00:38:58,643 if he can beat us at our own game, 870 00:38:58,643 --> 00:39:02,093 just as he wants to beat the Hollywood elite 871 00:39:02,093 --> 00:39:04,293 and the rich and powerful at their own game? 872 00:39:17,552 --> 00:39:18,385 -: Hey. -: Hello. 873 00:39:18,385 --> 00:39:20,791 -: Hi, Kerry. -: I've come to find some... 874 00:39:20,791 --> 00:39:23,153 I heard that Rocancourt has been quite friendly with you. 875 00:39:23,153 --> 00:39:26,043 -: I went to pick up to bring him to your meeting, right? 876 00:39:26,043 --> 00:39:27,873 And then, I don't know, on the way, 877 00:39:27,873 --> 00:39:30,443 he just asked my name and everything. 878 00:39:30,443 --> 00:39:32,853 Being friendly, which is very normal. 879 00:39:32,853 --> 00:39:35,080 Anyway, he was like, "Oh, give me your number, 880 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:36,713 "so I'm going to help you with your career," 881 00:39:36,713 --> 00:39:38,263 and everything. 882 00:39:38,263 --> 00:39:39,620 And I was like, 883 00:39:39,620 --> 00:39:42,175 "Well, I know you are a con man." 884 00:39:42,175 --> 00:39:44,453 -: Did you give him your number? 885 00:39:44,453 --> 00:39:45,793 I did give it. 886 00:39:45,793 --> 00:39:47,433 But Kerry, you must understand. 887 00:39:47,433 --> 00:39:49,573 He's one of the biggest con men in the world, 888 00:39:49,573 --> 00:39:53,813 so I just wanted to see what was his pickup world. 889 00:39:53,813 --> 00:39:54,963 What was he gonna try? 890 00:39:54,963 --> 00:39:56,413 I just wanted to see that. 891 00:39:56,413 --> 00:39:59,393 -: Now, I heard something from the drivers, actually, myself. 892 00:39:59,393 --> 00:40:00,403 Yeah, yeah. 893 00:40:00,403 --> 00:40:03,253 I heard that he was quite happy 894 00:40:03,253 --> 00:40:05,465 to talk about his crimes, 895 00:40:05,465 --> 00:40:09,153 and actually seemed really quite proud of them. 896 00:40:09,153 --> 00:40:11,868 And the way he described them was, 897 00:40:11,868 --> 00:40:13,464 "I was the underdog 898 00:40:13,464 --> 00:40:15,891 "and I beat the elite." 899 00:40:15,891 --> 00:40:17,413 -: He beat the elite? 900 00:40:17,413 --> 00:40:18,933 -: He beat the elite. 901 00:40:18,933 --> 00:40:21,160 And I've asked him directly, 902 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:22,380 "Were are you beating the elite?" 903 00:40:22,380 --> 00:40:23,973 "No, no, no, no." 904 00:40:23,973 --> 00:40:25,233 -: Oh really? -: Yeah. 905 00:40:25,233 --> 00:40:28,223 So very different, very different impression 906 00:40:29,194 --> 00:40:31,406 he's willing to give to you and the drivers. 907 00:40:33,495 --> 00:40:35,660 Narrator: After his release from American prison, 908 00:40:35,660 --> 00:40:38,053 Christophe Rocancourt was deported back to France. 909 00:40:38,053 --> 00:40:40,253 There, he was hailed as a folk hero 910 00:40:40,253 --> 00:40:42,986 and invited as a guest on television talk shows. 911 00:40:44,018 --> 00:40:44,883 Narrator: French filmmaker, Catherine Breillat, 912 00:40:44,883 --> 00:40:46,303 offered Rocancourt a role in 913 00:40:46,303 --> 00:40:48,183 her new feature film, "Bad Love," 914 00:40:48,183 --> 00:40:49,883 starring Naomi Campbell. 915 00:40:49,883 --> 00:40:51,733 She also offered Rocancourt money 916 00:40:51,733 --> 00:40:53,593 to write a script on his life. 917 00:40:53,593 --> 00:40:54,983 Narrator: She testified before the court 918 00:40:54,983 --> 00:40:58,223 that she had given him more than €600,000. 919 00:40:58,223 --> 00:41:01,373 The judge decided Rocancourt had abused Breillat's weakness 920 00:41:01,373 --> 00:41:03,573 and sentenced him to eight months in prison. 921 00:41:06,753 --> 00:41:11,073 -: He's been capable of some really cruel things 922 00:41:11,073 --> 00:41:14,403 that don't fit with this Robin Hood character 923 00:41:14,403 --> 00:41:16,383 that he's built for himself; 924 00:41:16,383 --> 00:41:19,373 This folk hero that he is in France. 925 00:41:19,373 --> 00:41:22,973 So the con that he pulled on 926 00:41:22,973 --> 00:41:24,373 the film producer, 927 00:41:24,373 --> 00:41:26,000 it was described by the court as 928 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,993 "an abuse of her weakness." 929 00:41:27,993 --> 00:41:28,943 She'd had a stroke, 930 00:41:28,943 --> 00:41:31,603 she was physically and emotionally 931 00:41:31,603 --> 00:41:33,863 incredibly vulnerable at that time, 932 00:41:33,863 --> 00:41:35,586 and he took advantage of it. 933 00:41:39,261 --> 00:41:41,398 -: Yes, you're talking about Catherine Breillat. 934 00:41:41,398 --> 00:41:42,651 I don't know how weak she is, 935 00:41:42,651 --> 00:41:44,651 but she's not that weak. 936 00:41:46,656 --> 00:41:48,723 I think she just fell in love with me, 937 00:41:48,723 --> 00:41:51,703 she just think I'm a little puppy who she can play with, 938 00:41:51,703 --> 00:41:53,616 like she did with all kinda actor. 939 00:41:56,893 --> 00:41:58,990 You cannot con an honest person. 940 00:42:03,063 --> 00:42:05,303 -: You cannot con an honest person. 941 00:42:05,303 --> 00:42:06,813 -: It's two kind of people. 942 00:42:06,813 --> 00:42:09,063 I have a friend of mine who's filthy wealthy, 943 00:42:10,155 --> 00:42:12,343 beautiful house, sample... 944 00:42:12,343 --> 00:42:13,590 Eating simple (murmurs). 945 00:42:14,950 --> 00:42:18,656 And you have the new rich, 946 00:42:19,683 --> 00:42:24,683 who they get involved with whole fakeness, hypocrisy. 947 00:42:25,623 --> 00:42:29,132 I don't believe these people have been conned by me, 948 00:42:29,132 --> 00:42:30,432 that I'm to the big money. 949 00:42:32,503 --> 00:42:34,954 The whole scam to that, 950 00:42:34,954 --> 00:42:38,360 they didn't question theirself. 951 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,863 They didn't want to see it. 952 00:42:42,863 --> 00:42:44,553 -: He comes out as emotional. 953 00:42:44,553 --> 00:42:47,620 He's laughing and smiling and friendly and so on. 954 00:42:47,620 --> 00:42:49,414 And the question is, to me, 955 00:42:49,414 --> 00:42:51,783 if he feels those things. 956 00:42:51,783 --> 00:42:53,533 -: I did see early in the interview 957 00:42:53,533 --> 00:42:55,543 that he did show some emotion, right? 958 00:42:55,543 --> 00:42:58,313 Talking about the orphanage days. 959 00:42:58,313 --> 00:43:00,903 And some emotion refer... 960 00:43:00,903 --> 00:43:02,713 Talking about his mother. 961 00:43:02,713 --> 00:43:04,883 So some of the family history stuff, 962 00:43:04,883 --> 00:43:06,803 the very early stuff was there, 963 00:43:06,803 --> 00:43:11,083 but there wasn't, for the victims, anything else. 964 00:43:11,083 --> 00:43:12,186 It was just flat. 965 00:43:14,233 --> 00:43:16,973 -: I think that he was really damaged 966 00:43:16,973 --> 00:43:18,273 as a young kid, 967 00:43:18,273 --> 00:43:19,203 and really hurt. 968 00:43:19,203 --> 00:43:22,143 And I think that's where he was emotionally cut off, 969 00:43:22,143 --> 00:43:24,856 and he never went past that, 970 00:43:24,856 --> 00:43:25,858 and he still hasn't. 971 00:43:25,858 --> 00:43:28,833 He never asked me for money. 972 00:43:28,833 --> 00:43:32,950 He never said, "Can you do something for me?" 973 00:43:34,453 --> 00:43:36,534 That wasn't part of my relationship. 974 00:43:36,534 --> 00:43:38,413 What I know and what I've seen, 975 00:43:38,413 --> 00:43:40,183 I've never seen him drink 976 00:43:40,183 --> 00:43:41,796 and I've never seen him do drugs. 977 00:43:41,796 --> 00:43:44,973 So it wasn't a drinking or a drug thing at all for him. 978 00:43:44,973 --> 00:43:49,943 So I think it was the high of the con, 979 00:43:49,943 --> 00:43:51,553 or I don't know. 980 00:43:51,553 --> 00:43:54,573 -: When you met your wife, who did you tell her 981 00:43:54,573 --> 00:43:57,126 that you were? -: Very honest woman. 982 00:43:57,126 --> 00:44:01,543 Because I love her and I didn't want to lie to her, 983 00:44:01,543 --> 00:44:02,683 so I tell her. 984 00:44:02,683 --> 00:44:05,079 -: You told her the truth about yourself 985 00:44:05,079 --> 00:44:07,105 after you got married? -: Yeah. 986 00:44:07,105 --> 00:44:10,599 -: So when you were taking those vows, 987 00:44:10,599 --> 00:44:15,599 did you not think that this relationship is built on lies? 988 00:44:16,363 --> 00:44:17,573 -: If I didn't love her, 989 00:44:17,573 --> 00:44:19,553 and then I have no love for her, 990 00:44:19,553 --> 00:44:21,053 and I would lie to her love, 991 00:44:21,053 --> 00:44:23,473 I will probably feel more bad. 992 00:44:23,473 --> 00:44:24,443 -: What tipped it for you? 993 00:44:24,443 --> 00:44:26,690 Was there a particular event that made you think, 994 00:44:26,690 --> 00:44:28,260 "No, I've got to come clean here, 995 00:44:28,260 --> 00:44:30,023 "I've got to be honest, 996 00:44:30,023 --> 00:44:30,856 "I got to be the real me"? 997 00:44:30,856 --> 00:44:32,620 -: Because I love her, that's it. 998 00:44:32,620 --> 00:44:33,893 I have to tell her. 999 00:44:33,893 --> 00:44:35,940 -: Okay, and at that point, were you thinking of, 1000 00:44:35,940 --> 00:44:38,190 "Right, I'm going to give up this lifestyle?" 1001 00:44:45,333 --> 00:44:46,576 -: No, I can't say that. 1002 00:44:48,133 --> 00:44:49,180 I said to her, I said, 1003 00:44:49,180 --> 00:44:52,245 "Listen, I know what I am. 1004 00:44:52,245 --> 00:44:54,780 "I've been a criminal. 1005 00:44:54,780 --> 00:44:57,586 "I did come to this country to..." 1006 00:44:59,053 --> 00:45:01,383 She did think, for a while, "he's a joker," 1007 00:45:01,383 --> 00:45:02,546 so she called the FBI. 1008 00:45:03,685 --> 00:45:05,184 -: "If you've heard of Christophe Rocancourt, 1009 00:45:05,184 --> 00:45:07,090 "give me a call back. 1010 00:45:07,090 --> 00:45:09,223 "If not, just forget it." 1011 00:45:09,223 --> 00:45:11,683 And because we were not very serious 1012 00:45:11,683 --> 00:45:12,583 about the phone call. 1013 00:45:12,583 --> 00:45:14,103 Yeah, like within 15 minutes, 1014 00:45:14,103 --> 00:45:16,663 I was surrounded by the FBI, 1015 00:45:16,663 --> 00:45:18,960 international police. 1016 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:20,063 -: And I did go for it. 1017 00:45:20,063 --> 00:45:21,363 I don't say I'm a nice guy, 1018 00:45:21,363 --> 00:45:23,364 I tell you what I am. 1019 00:45:23,364 --> 00:45:24,983 -: They told me to please call him, 1020 00:45:24,983 --> 00:45:28,622 and that they would be able to trace him. 1021 00:45:28,622 --> 00:45:32,084 So I called him like at three 1022 00:45:32,084 --> 00:45:32,917 or four o'clock in the morning, 1023 00:45:32,917 --> 00:45:37,433 and he picked up, and then they caught him. 1024 00:45:37,433 --> 00:45:39,519 -: How did you feel about that? 1025 00:45:39,519 --> 00:45:42,023 -: Betrayed, I think. 1026 00:45:42,023 --> 00:45:43,903 I didn't like the idea. 1027 00:45:43,903 --> 00:45:48,859 It takes me a long time to understand why she did it. 1028 00:45:48,859 --> 00:45:50,533 -: Do you think she was afraid? 1029 00:45:50,533 --> 00:45:51,366 -: No. 1030 00:45:51,366 --> 00:45:52,917 -: No? -: No. 1031 00:45:52,917 --> 00:45:54,733 -: He only had one phone call 1032 00:45:54,733 --> 00:45:56,013 and he could have called somebody, 1033 00:45:56,013 --> 00:45:58,363 but he wanted to call me to let me know, 1034 00:45:58,363 --> 00:46:00,657 number one, that he knew it was me, 1035 00:46:00,657 --> 00:46:03,850 and number two, that "if it wasn't you, 1036 00:46:03,850 --> 00:46:05,900 "I would kill you." 1037 00:46:09,293 --> 00:46:12,163 -: If I do something, I choose to do something, 1038 00:46:12,163 --> 00:46:15,899 I live for it, I go for it, I pay for it. 1039 00:46:15,899 --> 00:46:17,193 If you get tried, you get sentenced, 1040 00:46:17,193 --> 00:46:19,403 you get five-year under high security, 1041 00:46:19,403 --> 00:46:21,063 I didn't cry to do the five-year. 1042 00:46:21,063 --> 00:46:24,773 -: Five years for the kind of criminal activity 1043 00:46:24,773 --> 00:46:26,613 that you've been involved in, 1044 00:46:26,613 --> 00:46:28,683 you've got off very, very lightly, 1045 00:46:28,683 --> 00:46:29,516 don't you agree? 1046 00:46:29,516 --> 00:46:32,193 -: I didn't spend five years on the Club Med. 1047 00:46:32,193 --> 00:46:37,193 I spent five years under level four federal prison, 1048 00:46:48,583 --> 00:46:51,736 Believe me, five year in federal prison is nothing great. 1049 00:46:53,270 --> 00:46:55,133 I don't know what you can give more society, 1050 00:46:55,133 --> 00:46:57,444 who you can give more reparation. 1051 00:46:57,444 --> 00:47:02,444 And so, I found that unfair to keep always to say, 1052 00:47:03,028 --> 00:47:05,945 "Oh, do you don't feel sorry for the victim? 1053 00:47:05,945 --> 00:47:06,778 "You do..." 1054 00:47:06,778 --> 00:47:07,611 No. 1055 00:47:07,611 --> 00:47:11,003 -: The karma works out. -: You have to let go by. 1056 00:47:11,003 --> 00:47:16,003 -: He lives in to two different worlds. 1057 00:47:16,003 --> 00:47:17,743 One, the world that he left 1058 00:47:17,743 --> 00:47:18,866 when he was a child, 1059 00:47:19,813 --> 00:47:22,877 of completely neglection. 1060 00:47:22,877 --> 00:47:25,903 And then the other world that he wanted to live 1061 00:47:25,903 --> 00:47:27,716 between an orphanage, 1062 00:47:29,191 --> 00:47:31,446 and a castle or best hotel in Hollywood. 1063 00:47:33,613 --> 00:47:35,583 He lived these two worlds 1064 00:47:36,619 --> 00:47:40,333 from one place to the other. 1065 00:47:40,333 --> 00:47:43,010 So he jumped from one place to the other. 1066 00:47:44,363 --> 00:47:46,213 -: I think what lies at the heart 1067 00:47:46,213 --> 00:47:50,453 of Rocancourt is a wish to never be 1068 00:47:50,453 --> 00:47:53,923 that powerless child again, 1069 00:47:53,923 --> 00:47:58,923 and I think that he wanted to raise himself up 1070 00:47:59,143 --> 00:48:02,976 and he found a way to do that in con artistry. 1071 00:48:04,423 --> 00:48:06,032 -: It's too easy to say, 1072 00:48:06,032 --> 00:48:08,395 "Oh look, look, look that guy, 1073 00:48:08,395 --> 00:48:09,228 "he take me to millions." 1074 00:48:09,228 --> 00:48:10,793 Well, first of all, you give me millions 1075 00:48:10,793 --> 00:48:13,460 because you're greedy, because you want to believe it. 1076 00:48:13,460 --> 00:48:14,293 -: "Sod you! 1077 00:48:14,293 --> 00:48:16,770 "Look what I've been able to achieve. 1078 00:48:16,770 --> 00:48:18,600 "You underestimated me. 1079 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,777 "But actually, all you rich and powerful people, 1080 00:48:21,777 --> 00:48:22,610 "now I'm one of you. 1081 00:48:22,610 --> 00:48:23,600 "Now I'm one of you. 1082 00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:25,160 "In fact, more than that, 1083 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,933 "I've beaten you at your own game." 1084 00:48:27,933 --> 00:48:30,663 -: Do I did have enough money to stop it? 1085 00:48:30,663 --> 00:48:31,963 Yes. 1086 00:48:31,963 --> 00:48:34,683 After so many million, I can stop it. 1087 00:48:34,683 --> 00:48:36,394 Why I didn't stop it? 1088 00:48:36,394 --> 00:48:37,227 Because the greed. 1089 00:48:46,633 --> 00:48:50,193 -: Christoph, we wanted to say thank you for coming 1090 00:48:50,193 --> 00:48:53,413 and for allowing us to talk to you, 1091 00:48:53,413 --> 00:48:55,853 learn from you, explore, poke around, 1092 00:48:55,853 --> 00:48:58,453 see how things are wired. 1093 00:48:58,453 --> 00:49:00,283 -: It's been a nice experience. 1094 00:49:00,283 --> 00:49:01,116 I like it. 1095 00:49:01,116 --> 00:49:03,043 -: Was there anything you've learned about yourself 1096 00:49:03,043 --> 00:49:05,527 through the course of the steps 1097 00:49:05,527 --> 00:49:07,113 that we've put you through 1098 00:49:07,113 --> 00:49:08,843 that maybe you didn't quite know? 1099 00:49:08,843 --> 00:49:13,023 -: I think what has been the most emotional thing for me is 1100 00:49:13,023 --> 00:49:16,076 with Kerry, about childhood. 1101 00:49:16,913 --> 00:49:18,293 52 years old, 1102 00:49:18,293 --> 00:49:20,540 and I still have touched (indistinct). 1103 00:49:21,574 --> 00:49:24,793 Very difficult to me, emotionally, to... 1104 00:49:24,793 --> 00:49:29,013 It get me very tired is because 1105 00:49:29,013 --> 00:49:30,893 you think you solve that. 1106 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:33,663 -: I think everybody is similar in that respect. 1107 00:49:33,663 --> 00:49:36,992 I think that we're all children deep down, 1108 00:49:36,992 --> 00:49:38,635 in some respects. 1109 00:49:38,635 --> 00:49:40,633 And I can understand, 1110 00:49:40,633 --> 00:49:41,853 I really can understand, 1111 00:49:41,853 --> 00:49:43,343 and I have compassion with what 1112 00:49:43,343 --> 00:49:45,313 you went through as a child. 1113 00:49:45,313 --> 00:49:47,683 And I can understand that that made you 1114 00:49:47,683 --> 00:49:51,249 not want to be poor in life, 1115 00:49:51,249 --> 00:49:56,249 and I think it made you resentful, maybe? 1116 00:49:56,293 --> 00:49:59,383 -: Oh yeah, there's no question I've been resentful. 1117 00:49:59,383 --> 00:50:00,883 -: When we were in the garden, 1118 00:50:00,883 --> 00:50:03,433 I asked you whether you got satisfaction 1119 00:50:03,433 --> 00:50:05,481 from beating the elite. 1120 00:50:05,481 --> 00:50:08,697 And I used that phrase, "beat the elite." 1121 00:50:08,697 --> 00:50:10,846 Do you know why I might have used it? 1122 00:50:11,823 --> 00:50:13,603 -: Probably to see what I would say. 1123 00:50:13,603 --> 00:50:16,203 -: Well, I've been talking to everybody in the Institute, 1124 00:50:16,203 --> 00:50:20,313 so I've been talking to people that do everything, 1125 00:50:20,313 --> 00:50:22,613 from the cleaners, to the assistants, 1126 00:50:22,613 --> 00:50:26,443 everybody, the people that drove you here, 1127 00:50:26,443 --> 00:50:28,803 and they tell that you told them, 1128 00:50:28,803 --> 00:50:30,353 you know what I'm about to say, 1129 00:50:31,376 --> 00:50:32,614 I can see that smile, 1130 00:50:32,614 --> 00:50:35,411 that you enjoyed being the underdog 1131 00:50:35,411 --> 00:50:39,580 who was able to, you know, be elite. 1132 00:50:41,283 --> 00:50:42,566 They are your words, 1133 00:50:43,402 --> 00:50:44,360 they're not my words. -: It is. 1134 00:50:45,225 --> 00:50:47,252 (indistinct) 1135 00:50:47,252 --> 00:50:48,736 -: So you didn't just beat them, 1136 00:50:48,736 --> 00:50:49,573 but you joined them. 1137 00:50:49,573 --> 00:50:52,353 -: Yeah, and maybe I did come like them. 1138 00:50:52,353 --> 00:50:55,900 -: And now, do you have enough? 1139 00:50:55,900 --> 00:50:58,173 -: Oh yeah, I'm comfortable. 1140 00:51:04,543 --> 00:51:06,343 -: If you could go back to your life 1141 00:51:06,343 --> 00:51:07,783 and change one thing... 1142 00:51:10,089 --> 00:51:10,922 -: Parents. 1143 00:51:11,967 --> 00:51:12,800 Parents. 1144 00:51:13,911 --> 00:51:15,942 -: What would you change? -: To have them normal. 1145 00:51:15,942 --> 00:51:18,616 That's it. 1146 00:51:18,616 --> 00:51:19,653 That is an emotional gap 1147 00:51:19,653 --> 00:51:20,653 you cannot fill, for some reason. 1148 00:51:20,653 --> 00:51:25,653 It doesn't matter how good you are. 1149 00:51:25,918 --> 00:51:27,790 So that bet on me. 1150 00:51:32,077 --> 00:51:33,136 -: Take care, it's been a pleasure. 1151 00:51:37,043 --> 00:51:38,043 -: Thank you so much. 1152 00:51:38,885 --> 00:51:42,064 Me too, I did appreciate. 1153 00:51:42,064 --> 00:51:43,731 -: Thank you so much. 1154 00:51:55,489 --> 00:51:58,239 (dramatic music)