1 00:00:00,068 --> 00:00:05,068 (water rushing) (intense music) 2 00:00:19,713 --> 00:00:22,566 Mark: What happens in the mind of con artists? 3 00:00:24,103 --> 00:00:26,963 What makes their brain so well-equipped 4 00:00:26,963 --> 00:00:28,606 for psychological trickery? 5 00:00:31,063 --> 00:00:36,063 Is it greed? A lack of empathy? Loose morals? 6 00:00:39,221 --> 00:00:44,153 Whatever it is, we are fascinated by con artists. 7 00:00:45,398 --> 00:00:48,065 (intense music) 8 00:01:02,793 --> 00:01:03,853 News Reporter: Frederic Bourdin 9 00:01:03,853 --> 00:01:05,353 is a French serial imposter 10 00:01:05,353 --> 00:01:07,063 the press has nicknamed the chameleon. 11 00:01:07,063 --> 00:01:09,253 He began his impersonations as a child, 12 00:01:09,253 --> 00:01:12,603 and claims to have assumed at least 500 false identities. 13 00:01:12,603 --> 00:01:14,883 News Reporter 2: In 1994, a young boy, 14 00:01:14,883 --> 00:01:17,953 Nicholas Barclay went missing in Texas. 15 00:01:17,953 --> 00:01:20,053 Frederick Bourdin took the identity 16 00:01:20,053 --> 00:01:22,543 of the still missing Nicholas Barclay. 17 00:01:22,543 --> 00:01:23,993 News Reporter 3: Although Bourdin had brown eyes 18 00:01:23,993 --> 00:01:26,313 and a French accent, he managed to convince the family, 19 00:01:26,313 --> 00:01:28,963 and the authorities he was Nicholas Barclay. 20 00:01:28,963 --> 00:01:30,123 News Reporter 2: The Frenchman, 21 00:01:30,123 --> 00:01:32,833 a fraud named Frederic Bourdin. 22 00:01:32,833 --> 00:01:34,623 News Reporter 4: Was ordered to do a DNA test. 23 00:01:34,623 --> 00:01:37,723 He pleaded guilty to passport fraud and perjury. 24 00:01:37,723 --> 00:01:39,323 News Reporter 5: Frederic served six years 25 00:01:39,323 --> 00:01:42,693 in an American prison before being deported to France. 26 00:01:42,693 --> 00:01:45,083 News Reporter 2: A private investigator compared the ears 27 00:01:45,083 --> 00:01:47,783 of Bourdin to the ears of Nicholas Barclay. 28 00:01:47,783 --> 00:01:50,339 Investigator: So I knew right away I had an imposter. 29 00:01:50,339 --> 00:01:53,006 (intense music) 30 00:02:29,853 --> 00:02:32,533 Mark: We've all been lied to. 31 00:02:32,533 --> 00:02:34,523 We've all been offered something 32 00:02:34,523 --> 00:02:37,393 that is just too good to be true. 33 00:02:37,393 --> 00:02:40,533 And still we fell for it. 34 00:02:40,533 --> 00:02:43,533 Although we love a good con, we hate it 35 00:02:43,533 --> 00:02:45,006 when it happens to us. 36 00:02:46,523 --> 00:02:49,643 To find out how to resist the manipulation, 37 00:02:49,643 --> 00:02:52,423 we invited some of the greatest con artists 38 00:02:52,423 --> 00:02:54,173 to our Institute. 39 00:02:54,173 --> 00:02:56,323 Together with a team of experts, 40 00:02:56,323 --> 00:03:00,023 we are going to analyze their stories, pick their brains, 41 00:03:00,023 --> 00:03:02,866 and reveal what their body language tells us. 42 00:03:04,133 --> 00:03:06,166 Welcome to the Institute. 43 00:03:08,093 --> 00:03:10,503 -: Hello, Mr. Bourdin. -: Hello, hi. 44 00:03:10,503 --> 00:03:12,243 -: How are you? -: Very good. 45 00:03:12,243 --> 00:03:14,366 -: They are ready. -: Me too. 46 00:03:19,023 --> 00:03:21,423 -: Mr. Bourdin, take a seat. 47 00:03:21,423 --> 00:03:26,283 I'm Kerry Daynes. I am a consultant forensic psychologist. 48 00:03:26,283 --> 00:03:29,443 And let me introduce you to Mark Frank. 49 00:03:29,443 --> 00:03:32,773 He is a professor of behavioral science, 50 00:03:32,773 --> 00:03:34,963 and we've got Moran Cerf, 51 00:03:34,963 --> 00:03:38,643 who is a professor of neuroscience. 52 00:03:38,643 --> 00:03:42,073 So I think that it's important to point out 53 00:03:42,073 --> 00:03:44,793 that obviously we're not your doctors. 54 00:03:44,793 --> 00:03:47,016 So we're not here to diagnose you. 55 00:03:48,113 --> 00:03:51,403 And this isn't a form of therapy. 56 00:03:51,403 --> 00:03:54,098 We're just hoping to learn from you. 57 00:03:54,098 --> 00:03:56,143 -: It's my therapy. 58 00:03:56,143 --> 00:03:57,053 -: It is your therapy? 59 00:03:57,053 --> 00:03:59,483 -: I will take it as a therapy just for myself. 60 00:03:59,483 --> 00:04:01,473 I'm not asking you to be my therapist, 61 00:04:01,473 --> 00:04:03,313 but whatever happen in the next few days, 62 00:04:03,313 --> 00:04:04,983 it will be my therapy. 63 00:04:04,983 --> 00:04:05,816 -: Alright. 64 00:04:06,853 --> 00:04:11,423 So what will be helpful to me is if I can start 65 00:04:11,423 --> 00:04:16,053 to understand the psychological and social factors 66 00:04:16,053 --> 00:04:18,893 that underlie your conning behavior. 67 00:04:18,893 --> 00:04:21,333 So I'm gonna spend some time talking to you 68 00:04:21,333 --> 00:04:23,753 about your history later on. 69 00:04:23,753 --> 00:04:25,283 But we're also going to put you 70 00:04:25,283 --> 00:04:28,963 through a series of assessments. 71 00:04:28,963 --> 00:04:30,843 -: I'm gonna play games with you. 72 00:04:30,843 --> 00:04:32,803 I'm gonna ask you questions and I'm gonna try 73 00:04:32,803 --> 00:04:35,873 to understand how you think by looking at your brain. 74 00:04:35,873 --> 00:04:38,113 So all the time where I'm gonna talk to you, 75 00:04:38,113 --> 00:04:39,993 I'm gonna also monitor your brain activity, 76 00:04:39,993 --> 00:04:41,653 and try to see if there are differences 77 00:04:41,653 --> 00:04:44,863 between what you tell me, and what your brain says. 78 00:04:44,863 --> 00:04:46,473 -: And then from my point of view, 79 00:04:46,473 --> 00:04:47,653 being a behavioral scientist, 80 00:04:47,653 --> 00:04:50,593 I'm interested in what is going on in the brain, 81 00:04:50,593 --> 00:04:52,753 and how it manifests itself 82 00:04:52,753 --> 00:04:55,023 on the external expressive behavior. 83 00:04:55,023 --> 00:04:57,603 So in terms of what happens to people in their faces 84 00:04:57,603 --> 00:05:00,913 and their voices and other non-verbal channels. 85 00:05:00,913 --> 00:05:04,373 -: So I'm going to be talking to you in a very short while, 86 00:05:04,373 --> 00:05:06,773 but why don't you go and settle yourself in. 87 00:05:06,773 --> 00:05:09,823 Make yourself at home, have a look around, 88 00:05:09,823 --> 00:05:13,363 and start to get a feel for the place and I'll see you soon. 89 00:05:13,363 --> 00:05:14,903 -: Sure. -: Thank you. 90 00:05:14,903 --> 00:05:16,413 -: You're welcome. -: Bye-bye. 91 00:05:16,413 --> 00:05:17,246 -: Bye-bye. 92 00:05:19,958 --> 00:05:22,625 (intense music) 93 00:05:58,335 --> 00:05:59,603 -: Hello, Frederic. -: Hello, Kerry. 94 00:05:59,603 --> 00:06:00,753 -: How was lunch? 95 00:06:00,753 --> 00:06:04,153 -: Oh, very, very good. -: Good. 96 00:06:04,153 --> 00:06:05,083 -: I like fish. 97 00:06:05,083 --> 00:06:06,863 -: Good. I'm pleased to hear it. 98 00:06:06,863 --> 00:06:10,993 So Frederic, you're 47, 48. Is it now? 99 00:06:10,993 --> 00:06:12,590 -: No, I'm 46. 100 00:06:12,590 --> 00:06:14,643 -: 46? Sorry, am I aging you? 101 00:06:14,643 --> 00:06:15,893 Frederic: Next month I'll be 47. 102 00:06:15,893 --> 00:06:17,373 -: Next month, oh not long to go. 103 00:06:17,373 --> 00:06:19,443 You'll be 47 the same as me. 104 00:06:19,443 --> 00:06:22,273 And I understand that you were born in Nanterre? 105 00:06:22,273 --> 00:06:25,213 -: Nanterre. -: Nanterre? In France. 106 00:06:25,213 --> 00:06:26,726 -: District of Paris. Yeah. 107 00:06:27,713 --> 00:06:32,713 -: So when you were 23, you had found yourself in Spain, 108 00:06:34,173 --> 00:06:37,753 and then you chose to be a missing boy? 109 00:06:40,187 --> 00:06:42,854 (intense music) 110 00:06:43,943 --> 00:06:46,503 -: Normally in Spain, you'll go there. 111 00:06:46,503 --> 00:06:47,946 They put you in a shelter. 112 00:06:49,043 --> 00:06:50,633 You stay there weeks, months, 113 00:06:50,633 --> 00:06:52,583 and then you run away and nobody cares. 114 00:06:55,273 --> 00:06:58,813 But in that place in particular, I don't know why. 115 00:06:58,813 --> 00:07:03,813 The juvenile judge and the prosecutor went to see me, 116 00:07:04,113 --> 00:07:06,866 and told me they really wanted to know who I was. 117 00:07:08,363 --> 00:07:11,843 They wanted me to prove to them who I was. 118 00:07:11,843 --> 00:07:13,933 And then they said a magic word. 119 00:07:13,933 --> 00:07:17,983 If you don't do that, we're gonna take your fingerprints. 120 00:07:17,983 --> 00:07:20,313 And we're gonna take your picture. 121 00:07:20,313 --> 00:07:22,043 And I knew that if they did that, 122 00:07:22,043 --> 00:07:23,920 in a few hours they would know who I was, 123 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:25,570 and they would send me to prison. 124 00:07:26,763 --> 00:07:29,043 So I said, okay, I'm gonna tell you the true. 125 00:07:29,043 --> 00:07:34,003 I'm American, but I don't want you to call my family. 126 00:07:34,003 --> 00:07:39,003 I want to call them myself. And surprisingly, they agreed. 127 00:07:39,813 --> 00:07:42,203 They let me just do what I want. 128 00:07:42,203 --> 00:07:43,713 There was the facts on the phone. 129 00:07:43,713 --> 00:07:46,103 I took the phone and at the beginning 130 00:07:46,103 --> 00:07:48,783 I started calling every police from big cities. 131 00:07:48,783 --> 00:07:51,373 New York, Chicago, Los Angeles. 132 00:07:51,373 --> 00:07:53,333 Telling them always the same story. 133 00:07:53,333 --> 00:07:56,803 I'm a police officer. I'm a shelter director. 134 00:07:56,803 --> 00:08:00,680 And we have a what's about a 14 years old kid here 135 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,683 who has been missing apparently four years 136 00:08:03,683 --> 00:08:05,103 from your country. 137 00:08:05,103 --> 00:08:06,253 We don't know who he is, 138 00:08:06,253 --> 00:08:08,813 but the American embassy says American 139 00:08:08,813 --> 00:08:12,733 because of his accent. But their answer was always the same. 140 00:08:12,733 --> 00:08:15,283 Do you know how many posters of missing person 141 00:08:15,283 --> 00:08:16,463 we have on the walls? 142 00:08:16,463 --> 00:08:18,916 You need to call the center of missing person 143 00:08:18,916 --> 00:08:20,113 (indistinct) in Virginia. 144 00:08:20,113 --> 00:08:22,853 And I talked to a lady, nice lady, very helpful. 145 00:08:22,853 --> 00:08:25,053 She really wanted to help. 146 00:08:25,053 --> 00:08:28,496 So the lady came with Nicolas Barclay. 147 00:08:36,818 --> 00:08:39,073 News Reporter 6: Nicholas Barclay was just 13 years old 148 00:08:39,073 --> 00:08:42,103 when he disappeared here back in June of 1994. 149 00:08:42,103 --> 00:08:44,313 He has blue eyes, light brown hair. 150 00:08:44,313 --> 00:08:46,253 And Barkley also has three tattoos, 151 00:08:46,253 --> 00:08:47,813 including letters on his left hand, 152 00:08:47,813 --> 00:08:49,946 left shoulder and left ankle. 153 00:08:49,946 --> 00:08:51,933 (news reporter muffles) 154 00:08:51,933 --> 00:08:53,973 -: Do you think that maybe he's trying to tell us, 155 00:08:53,973 --> 00:08:56,823 look, this wasn't calculated. 156 00:08:56,823 --> 00:08:57,656 -: Exactly. 157 00:08:57,656 --> 00:08:59,643 -: This wasn't premeditated. 158 00:08:59,643 --> 00:09:01,413 -: He has eight hours, right? 159 00:09:01,413 --> 00:09:03,713 It's nighttime. Eight hours. Everyone's gone. 160 00:09:03,713 --> 00:09:05,433 It's him and a phone. 161 00:09:05,433 --> 00:09:07,323 And by the morning he has to solve a problem. 162 00:09:07,323 --> 00:09:08,993 He has to figure out who he's gonna be next, 163 00:09:08,993 --> 00:09:10,383 and how he gets out of this thing, 164 00:09:10,383 --> 00:09:11,480 where they're gonna take his fingerprints and so on. 165 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,533 And he manages like in very little time 166 00:09:14,533 --> 00:09:19,533 to orchestrate what became his defining kind of life moment. 167 00:09:20,463 --> 00:09:21,593 He finds a character. -: Yes. 168 00:09:21,593 --> 00:09:22,853 -: He moves to a different country. 169 00:09:22,853 --> 00:09:25,773 So he tells us a story where it happened to him. 170 00:09:25,773 --> 00:09:29,723 But I think that eight hours, fast decisions, 171 00:09:29,723 --> 00:09:32,063 critical ones that tap into, I think to me. 172 00:09:32,063 --> 00:09:34,563 I find it as like a interesting moment, 173 00:09:34,563 --> 00:09:37,418 and really revealing of his psychology. 174 00:09:37,418 --> 00:09:42,418 (wind rushing) (intense music) 175 00:09:54,863 --> 00:09:58,663 Kerry: So at some point, Nicolas Barclay's sister comes 176 00:09:58,663 --> 00:10:01,193 to Spain to pick up her lost brother. 177 00:10:01,193 --> 00:10:02,396 Tell us what happened. 178 00:10:04,283 --> 00:10:08,233 -: I was in my room on that morning with the door locked. 179 00:10:08,233 --> 00:10:11,046 I bleach my hair. I made some tattoos. 180 00:10:11,993 --> 00:10:15,643 I got sunglasses. I got a scarf and gloves. 181 00:10:15,643 --> 00:10:20,643 But still, I mean, I've seen what Nicolas Barclay look like. 182 00:10:23,393 --> 00:10:26,423 So for me, it was just a nightmare. 183 00:10:26,423 --> 00:10:29,093 What was, this woman was gonna be very mad. 184 00:10:29,093 --> 00:10:30,623 Very shocked, very sad. 185 00:10:30,623 --> 00:10:33,783 And I'm gonna get my ass kicked and sent to prison. 186 00:10:33,783 --> 00:10:35,526 That was going in my mind. 187 00:10:37,103 --> 00:10:40,753 I just got out of my room, went down the stairs. 188 00:10:40,753 --> 00:10:45,753 And at the moment she saw me, she jump on my arms, 189 00:10:45,783 --> 00:10:49,203 hugging me, saying that how she knew. 190 00:10:49,203 --> 00:10:51,783 She said she knew, "I knew it was you. 191 00:10:51,783 --> 00:10:56,070 I knew I was gonna see you. I remember that teeny nose." 192 00:10:58,603 --> 00:10:59,983 What did I have? 193 00:10:59,983 --> 00:11:04,933 A bandana, a hat, a scarf, and a small voice. 194 00:11:04,933 --> 00:11:06,093 -: How do you change your voice? 195 00:11:06,093 --> 00:11:08,413 Can you show us how you change your voice? 196 00:11:08,413 --> 00:11:13,223 I know that is difficult to perform on command, 197 00:11:13,223 --> 00:11:16,723 but you've obviously spent many, many months 198 00:11:16,723 --> 00:11:17,853 of your life doing this. 199 00:11:17,853 --> 00:11:20,146 So what is your teen voice? 200 00:11:22,893 --> 00:11:27,893 -: Well, the voices is just a part of everything else. 201 00:11:31,149 --> 00:11:33,896 -: Mhm hmm. You're not gonna let me hear it. 202 00:11:36,563 --> 00:11:38,580 -: I'm shy. (laughs) -: Okay. 203 00:11:38,580 --> 00:11:41,467 -: I'm sorry. (laughs) 204 00:11:41,467 --> 00:11:44,023 -: [Newscast Voiceover] This is Eye Witness News at 10. 205 00:11:44,023 --> 00:11:44,856 News Reporter 6: He disappeared 206 00:11:44,856 --> 00:11:46,503 without a trace three years ago. 207 00:11:46,503 --> 00:11:49,383 Tonight, a San Antonio boy is back home. 208 00:11:49,383 --> 00:11:51,863 Nicholas Barclay's now 16 years old. 209 00:11:51,863 --> 00:11:53,483 He vanished when he was 13. 210 00:11:53,483 --> 00:11:56,103 Nicolas says he was kidnapped and taken to Spain. 211 00:11:56,103 --> 00:11:57,623 He says for three years, 212 00:11:57,623 --> 00:12:00,003 he was repeatedly drugged, beaten, and raped. 213 00:12:00,003 --> 00:12:01,813 All part of a sex slave operation 214 00:12:01,813 --> 00:12:03,773 involving dozens of missing children. 215 00:12:03,773 --> 00:12:05,683 News Reporter 2: Somehow, a 13 year old boy 216 00:12:05,683 --> 00:12:09,623 from San Antonio ended up in Spain without a passport. 217 00:12:09,623 --> 00:12:11,653 He claims his captors changed his appearance 218 00:12:11,653 --> 00:12:13,563 to make him unrecognizable. 219 00:12:13,563 --> 00:12:15,963 He was no longer allowed to speak English. 220 00:12:15,963 --> 00:12:17,463 Did they rape you every night? 221 00:12:18,893 --> 00:12:20,143 -: Me? No. 222 00:12:20,143 --> 00:12:23,773 Because they didn't rape me every night. 223 00:12:23,773 --> 00:12:25,186 Some of them they like more. 224 00:12:26,023 --> 00:12:27,573 Some of the kids, they like more, 225 00:12:27,573 --> 00:12:32,313 they rape them usually two or three times a week. 226 00:12:32,313 --> 00:12:34,443 -: When that was happening. 227 00:12:34,443 --> 00:12:37,010 Did you think "I've gone too far here?" 228 00:12:41,615 --> 00:12:44,193 (intense music) 229 00:12:44,193 --> 00:12:47,003 -: What do people do when they feel emotions? 230 00:12:47,003 --> 00:12:48,603 What do they do with their voices? 231 00:12:48,603 --> 00:12:50,253 Their faces, their bodies? 232 00:12:50,253 --> 00:12:51,876 How good are we at spotting it? 233 00:12:52,713 --> 00:12:55,556 Who's good at this? Who's not good at this? 234 00:12:56,823 --> 00:13:01,823 And then even a little bit of a strategic element. 235 00:13:02,023 --> 00:13:03,703 Who's more willing to lie? 236 00:13:03,703 --> 00:13:06,313 And for what reasons and what reasons 237 00:13:06,313 --> 00:13:08,723 are we willing to believe lies? 238 00:13:08,723 --> 00:13:11,673 Many times we believe lies because we want to believe them. 239 00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:14,973 Kerry: So tell me about your parents. 240 00:13:14,973 --> 00:13:17,336 Tell me what circumstances you were born into. 241 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:24,320 -: (sighs) My mother was coming from a very troubled family. 242 00:13:26,513 --> 00:13:29,383 For my grandfather, Arabic people should have dealt 243 00:13:29,383 --> 00:13:34,253 with nuclear weapons and black people should were monkeys 244 00:13:34,253 --> 00:13:35,873 and eated banana. 245 00:13:35,873 --> 00:13:40,483 So when my mother got pregnant with me 246 00:13:40,483 --> 00:13:44,303 with this Arabic person, she asked my- 247 00:13:44,303 --> 00:13:47,670 She ordered my mother to have an abortion. 248 00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:50,453 Kerry: She was only 18 At the time. Was she? 249 00:13:50,453 --> 00:13:52,513 -: Yeah. She was about 18, yeah. 250 00:13:52,513 --> 00:13:55,833 -: How do you know that your mother was asked 251 00:13:55,833 --> 00:13:58,363 by her father to have an abortion? Who told you that? 252 00:13:58,363 --> 00:14:03,073 -: His notes. He wrote it in his journal. 253 00:14:03,073 --> 00:14:03,906 Kerry: Right. 254 00:14:03,906 --> 00:14:07,763 -: Which I, one day found out in his closet. 255 00:14:07,763 --> 00:14:11,403 I wasn't that hurt because his youngest daughter 256 00:14:12,323 --> 00:14:17,323 spend my entire childhood saying things like, 257 00:14:18,430 --> 00:14:21,713 "Why can't this fucking Arabic shit die? 258 00:14:21,713 --> 00:14:24,643 Why this rat wouldn't die? 259 00:14:24,643 --> 00:14:26,773 Why can't he just fucking die?" 260 00:14:26,773 --> 00:14:29,183 All the time. Fucking Arabic. Fucking. 261 00:14:29,183 --> 00:14:34,183 So I was used to racist insults from his youngest daughter, 262 00:14:34,223 --> 00:14:38,683 which was a clear reflect of what her father was. 263 00:14:38,683 --> 00:14:43,183 And my mother, she wasn't just not capable 264 00:14:43,183 --> 00:14:45,863 of looking after me. She was abusive. 265 00:14:45,863 --> 00:14:47,843 Some people say you can't remember 266 00:14:47,843 --> 00:14:50,043 from that early age, but I do. 267 00:14:50,043 --> 00:14:52,923 So I remember one trip we had in train. 268 00:14:52,923 --> 00:14:57,783 I was hungry and she gave me some money to get a sandwich, 269 00:14:57,783 --> 00:15:00,513 but the train was going to stop only two minutes. 270 00:15:00,513 --> 00:15:04,503 So I start getting out of the train to take a sandwich, 271 00:15:04,503 --> 00:15:07,633 but then I realized that the train was going to go 272 00:15:07,633 --> 00:15:12,393 because the controller starting, blowing on the whistle. 273 00:15:12,393 --> 00:15:15,093 So I jumped back on the train crying 274 00:15:15,093 --> 00:15:16,483 because I was very much afraid 275 00:15:16,483 --> 00:15:18,483 that the train was going away. 276 00:15:18,483 --> 00:15:21,053 And I ran to her and I was very sad. 277 00:15:21,053 --> 00:15:24,123 Very, very, very scared of the experience. 278 00:15:24,123 --> 00:15:25,893 And again, I see the smile on her face. 279 00:15:25,893 --> 00:15:27,943 Again, right now I can see it. 280 00:15:27,943 --> 00:15:31,349 She was happy that I was despair. 281 00:15:31,349 --> 00:15:34,016 (intense music) 282 00:15:44,933 --> 00:15:47,233 -: Well, we're here in the memory room. 283 00:15:47,233 --> 00:15:50,553 And I suppose we've all got a memory room, haven't we, 284 00:15:50,553 --> 00:15:55,073 in our own minds that stores almost like a Facebook timeline 285 00:15:55,073 --> 00:15:57,943 of significant events in our lives. 286 00:15:57,943 --> 00:16:01,493 And it tells us so much about who we are. 287 00:16:01,493 --> 00:16:04,793 Our memories, they can be cherished possessions, 288 00:16:04,793 --> 00:16:07,983 or they can be the things that haunt us the most. 289 00:16:07,983 --> 00:16:10,846 One of my earliest memories is going to a zoo. 290 00:16:11,693 --> 00:16:15,063 But I must've been, I don't know, two or three years old. 291 00:16:15,063 --> 00:16:18,423 So could I even biologically have that memory? 292 00:16:18,423 --> 00:16:20,080 I don't think it's possible. Is it? 293 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,543 -: And we can see that again as we go to Frederic, right? 294 00:16:23,543 --> 00:16:25,573 So he's telling his story of his youth. 295 00:16:25,573 --> 00:16:28,013 There's some real things in there. 296 00:16:28,013 --> 00:16:30,363 There may be some other things that may not be. 297 00:16:32,773 --> 00:16:35,493 Part of that is I think also a little bit 298 00:16:35,493 --> 00:16:37,306 of reading the audience. 299 00:16:39,363 --> 00:16:41,283 -: Well, that's his motivation, isn't it? 300 00:16:41,283 --> 00:16:43,843 Because it's not money that he wants. 301 00:16:43,843 --> 00:16:47,633 He wants a response from the audience. 302 00:16:47,633 --> 00:16:51,863 He wants to elicit those, I see some caring, 303 00:16:51,863 --> 00:16:56,653 loving responses, or treat me as though I am a child 304 00:16:56,653 --> 00:16:59,573 in need of your protection and your care. 305 00:16:59,573 --> 00:17:02,173 -: You know, and I can shape the story in just enough way 306 00:17:02,173 --> 00:17:04,613 till I start to get the reaction from somebody. 307 00:17:04,613 --> 00:17:08,243 -: What's interesting here is that we are part of this thing. 308 00:17:08,243 --> 00:17:10,253 So we kind of think of ourself as audience. 309 00:17:10,253 --> 00:17:13,283 The story just is told, and we're just taking notes. 310 00:17:13,283 --> 00:17:18,273 But actually our nodding our heads to the right moment, 311 00:17:18,273 --> 00:17:20,813 makes the story go in one direction. 312 00:17:20,813 --> 00:17:23,063 If we did this, then maybe it will go 313 00:17:23,063 --> 00:17:24,023 in a different direction. 314 00:17:24,023 --> 00:17:25,383 We laugh in the right spot. 315 00:17:25,383 --> 00:17:30,203 So probably us three in the room got one version, 316 00:17:30,203 --> 00:17:32,453 you and you independently got a different version 317 00:17:32,453 --> 00:17:33,583 than I did. 318 00:17:33,583 --> 00:17:35,590 And there's also the truth that he tells himself 319 00:17:35,590 --> 00:17:36,753 before he goes to sleep. 320 00:17:36,753 --> 00:17:39,213 Which is probably another version of the story. 321 00:17:39,213 --> 00:17:42,163 Somewhere between all of those lies what actually happened. 322 00:17:44,209 --> 00:17:46,876 (intense music) 323 00:17:53,783 --> 00:17:54,616 -: Childhood. 324 00:17:54,616 --> 00:17:58,843 So our first 16 years affect our adult life, 325 00:17:58,843 --> 00:18:00,903 whether or not we care to admit it, 326 00:18:00,903 --> 00:18:04,193 or whether or not we're aware of the connection. 327 00:18:04,193 --> 00:18:07,003 Because during those first 16 years, 328 00:18:07,003 --> 00:18:10,623 we're really building up a blueprint for the world. 329 00:18:10,623 --> 00:18:13,923 So we're figuring out who we are, 330 00:18:13,923 --> 00:18:16,903 how other people interact with us. 331 00:18:16,903 --> 00:18:18,703 Are we going to be treated well? 332 00:18:18,703 --> 00:18:22,763 Are we going to be treated with contempt or aggression? 333 00:18:22,763 --> 00:18:24,506 Are we going to be neglected? 334 00:18:25,503 --> 00:18:30,423 Our expectations are built really in our childhood. 335 00:18:30,423 --> 00:18:31,903 And of course, things can change 336 00:18:31,903 --> 00:18:34,513 throughout the lifespan, things evolve. 337 00:18:34,513 --> 00:18:38,303 But I think that we spend an awful lot of time 338 00:18:38,303 --> 00:18:43,303 as adults trying to fulfill desires that we had as a child. 339 00:18:44,643 --> 00:18:48,183 Psychologists call it "unmet needs." 340 00:18:48,183 --> 00:18:53,183 Unmet needs from childhood often drive adult behavior. 341 00:18:57,653 --> 00:19:00,733 -: For me, the worst part was the neighbor. 342 00:19:00,733 --> 00:19:03,693 One day unfortunately the TV broke down. 343 00:19:03,693 --> 00:19:08,283 And the neighbor next door was a man living with his mother. 344 00:19:08,283 --> 00:19:10,413 He said to my grandmother, "If you want, 345 00:19:10,413 --> 00:19:14,013 he can come in my house, watch the cartoons." 346 00:19:14,013 --> 00:19:16,753 So I went there and knock at the door. 347 00:19:16,753 --> 00:19:19,153 He opened the door, he turn on the TV 348 00:19:20,003 --> 00:19:23,566 for about seven seconds. 349 00:19:25,303 --> 00:19:26,841 And then he turned it off, 350 00:19:26,841 --> 00:19:29,413 and he said, "You see, there is nothing." 351 00:19:29,413 --> 00:19:30,246 Then he left. 352 00:19:30,246 --> 00:19:31,770 He went upstairs and he say, 353 00:19:31,770 --> 00:19:33,690 "Come, I want to show you something." 354 00:19:34,703 --> 00:19:35,906 So I went up. 355 00:19:36,883 --> 00:19:41,123 And he told me, "If you show me your penis, 356 00:19:41,123 --> 00:19:42,723 I will show you mine." 357 00:19:42,723 --> 00:19:44,776 And then he got me undressed, 358 00:19:46,453 --> 00:19:51,453 and we got in the bed and he raped me in the bed. 359 00:19:51,903 --> 00:19:53,623 And for a while. 360 00:19:53,623 --> 00:19:56,453 And then he noticed that I was crying. 361 00:19:56,453 --> 00:19:57,880 I wasn't crying a lot. 362 00:19:59,233 --> 00:20:00,066 -: In the beginning. 363 00:20:00,066 --> 00:20:03,183 You see a lot of the eyebrows down. 364 00:20:03,183 --> 00:20:05,563 People do this when they concentrate. 365 00:20:05,563 --> 00:20:08,856 Alright, so I'm trying to remember a date or a name. 366 00:20:10,063 --> 00:20:14,003 He does show a little bit of sort of this sadness 367 00:20:14,003 --> 00:20:16,183 in the recall, the lips come down. 368 00:20:16,183 --> 00:20:17,473 Chin gets pushed up. 369 00:20:17,473 --> 00:20:20,413 Again, very early on, as he starts to tell the story 370 00:20:20,413 --> 00:20:24,576 about them exposing themselves to each other. 371 00:20:25,733 --> 00:20:27,603 -: And he said, "You're crying." 372 00:20:27,603 --> 00:20:28,493 And I didn't say nothing. 373 00:20:28,493 --> 00:20:30,683 He said, "Do you want to go home?" 374 00:20:30,683 --> 00:20:31,933 I say, "Yes." 375 00:20:31,933 --> 00:20:35,206 He opened the door. I ran directly to my aunt. 376 00:20:36,203 --> 00:20:39,763 And I told her, and she started laughing. 377 00:20:39,763 --> 00:20:43,373 Like I've been telling the biggest joke there is on Earth. 378 00:20:43,373 --> 00:20:47,860 So I went to my grandmother and my grandmother say, 379 00:20:47,860 --> 00:20:49,560 "You don't have to go back there." 380 00:20:50,496 --> 00:20:51,829 And that was it. 381 00:21:00,673 --> 00:21:03,710 -: And then there's sort of a neutral, 382 00:21:03,710 --> 00:21:06,393 "And then he raped me and then I was crying." 383 00:21:06,393 --> 00:21:09,216 And then sort of skip over at this point. 384 00:21:10,203 --> 00:21:13,803 So there was not as much detail 385 00:21:13,803 --> 00:21:16,323 as what went on in the other parts. 386 00:21:16,323 --> 00:21:18,093 Now, what do we make of this? 387 00:21:18,093 --> 00:21:20,173 We don't know, right? 388 00:21:20,173 --> 00:21:24,803 Is it because he's inventing the account? 389 00:21:24,803 --> 00:21:26,983 Is it because of the trauma associated 390 00:21:26,983 --> 00:21:30,193 with the account that he therefore just wants 391 00:21:30,193 --> 00:21:32,543 to get over it? Alright? 392 00:21:32,543 --> 00:21:35,163 There's some controversy as far as what happens 393 00:21:35,163 --> 00:21:40,163 to people, recalling events that are traumatic in some way. 394 00:21:41,033 --> 00:21:43,483 But from a behavioral point of view, again, 395 00:21:43,483 --> 00:21:46,463 we can see a variety of things happening 396 00:21:46,463 --> 00:21:49,723 throughout the sequence and changes within that sequence. 397 00:21:49,723 --> 00:21:51,733 -: Do these micro expressions say anything 398 00:21:51,733 --> 00:21:53,313 about the truthfulness? 399 00:21:53,313 --> 00:21:55,203 -: There are no behavioral signs 400 00:21:55,203 --> 00:21:57,573 that guarantee somebody is lying or telling the truth. 401 00:21:57,573 --> 00:22:00,583 And it's not sort of what we're really doing here. 402 00:22:00,583 --> 00:22:02,683 We're not out to say, "Okay, he's lying about this. 403 00:22:02,683 --> 00:22:04,093 He's telling the truth about this." 404 00:22:04,093 --> 00:22:05,973 Or anything along those lines. 405 00:22:05,973 --> 00:22:09,753 It's just, what's sort of the emotional behavioral profile 406 00:22:09,753 --> 00:22:13,244 of these individuals as they're recalling and going forward? 407 00:22:13,244 --> 00:22:15,911 (intense music) 408 00:22:30,303 --> 00:22:32,783 -: He talks very, very easily. 409 00:22:32,783 --> 00:22:34,743 And it's almost as though he's already 410 00:22:34,743 --> 00:22:38,633 been through the first stages of therapy. 411 00:22:38,633 --> 00:22:43,633 And he's got his story in his mind, 412 00:22:43,733 --> 00:22:46,973 but he's stuck somewhere in his past. 413 00:22:46,973 --> 00:22:51,973 He's not moved through and processed his past. 414 00:22:52,523 --> 00:22:55,953 He's very much still in there. 415 00:22:55,953 --> 00:22:58,713 And what I mean by that is there were times 416 00:22:58,713 --> 00:23:03,713 when the emotion came to the fore really quite rapidly. 417 00:23:03,933 --> 00:23:06,673 He became tearful. 418 00:23:06,673 --> 00:23:09,053 But he said to me that he felt 419 00:23:09,053 --> 00:23:12,263 that if he really had caused great distress, 420 00:23:12,263 --> 00:23:15,936 then he wouldn't be able to be in this world. 421 00:23:16,953 --> 00:23:21,353 -: If the family of his boy would have been convinced 422 00:23:21,353 --> 00:23:22,876 that I was this boy. 423 00:23:25,110 --> 00:23:28,163 And today it would have be revealed to them 424 00:23:28,163 --> 00:23:29,963 that I wasn't. 425 00:23:29,963 --> 00:23:33,236 Then I don't think I would be sitting in front of you today. 426 00:23:37,391 --> 00:23:38,763 -: So what do you notice? 427 00:23:38,763 --> 00:23:41,243 -: It's sadness I would say. 428 00:23:41,243 --> 00:23:42,793 -: It's a bit of a trick question. 429 00:23:42,793 --> 00:23:43,823 Basak: Yeah. 430 00:23:43,823 --> 00:23:46,173 -: Because it's not what's there. 431 00:23:46,173 --> 00:23:47,463 It's what's not there. 432 00:23:47,463 --> 00:23:50,163 -: He was basically saying that if he thought 433 00:23:50,163 --> 00:23:53,103 that he had done something dreadful, 434 00:23:53,103 --> 00:23:55,093 then he wouldn't be able to live with himself 435 00:23:55,093 --> 00:23:58,083 because that's not the type of person that he is. 436 00:23:58,083 --> 00:24:01,983 So it means that I have to take into account 437 00:24:01,983 --> 00:24:05,993 that he's only here for a few days, 438 00:24:05,993 --> 00:24:08,583 and it limits me because I don't want 439 00:24:08,583 --> 00:24:12,853 to challenge him too much on that. 440 00:24:12,853 --> 00:24:14,973 Because obviously he's somebody who's 441 00:24:14,973 --> 00:24:18,463 in a fragile, emotional state. 442 00:24:18,463 --> 00:24:21,193 -: When people are genuinely distressed, right? 443 00:24:21,193 --> 00:24:23,463 Our emotions are involuntary actions. 444 00:24:23,463 --> 00:24:25,403 We don't pick and choose them. Right? 445 00:24:25,403 --> 00:24:27,606 And so with the involuntary aspect of emotions, 446 00:24:27,606 --> 00:24:29,913 that makes them somewhat hard to fake. 447 00:24:29,913 --> 00:24:32,813 We can often portray, we can smile when we're not happy, 448 00:24:32,813 --> 00:24:34,023 and things like this. 449 00:24:34,023 --> 00:24:36,283 But distress, which is what you might expect 450 00:24:36,283 --> 00:24:38,213 at a moment like this, is one of the 451 00:24:38,213 --> 00:24:40,773 hardest ones to fake, right? 452 00:24:40,773 --> 00:24:42,863 It involves, there's the muscles 453 00:24:42,863 --> 00:24:44,593 in the middle of the forehead, right? 454 00:24:44,593 --> 00:24:46,053 When people are distressed, 455 00:24:46,053 --> 00:24:48,803 we tend to see that inner part go up. 456 00:24:48,803 --> 00:24:51,213 So if he was feeling distress at this moment. 457 00:24:51,213 --> 00:24:53,413 I mean, you know, maybe he thinks about it, maybe. 458 00:24:53,413 --> 00:24:56,573 But as far as actually feeling it at that moment, 459 00:24:56,573 --> 00:24:58,593 this suggests it's not there. 460 00:24:58,593 --> 00:24:59,537 -: Oh. 461 00:24:59,537 --> 00:25:00,370 -: Because that muscle does move. 462 00:25:00,370 --> 00:25:02,023 He does show it in other parts of the interview. 463 00:25:02,023 --> 00:25:05,763 Not that he's paralyzed or can't show it. He does. 464 00:25:05,763 --> 00:25:10,683 -: Are we falling for somebody who wants 465 00:25:12,063 --> 00:25:16,666 to elicit care and sympathy in other people? 466 00:25:18,003 --> 00:25:19,137 -: So, okay. 467 00:25:19,137 --> 00:25:20,093 So it's a binary thing. We have two options. 468 00:25:20,093 --> 00:25:21,903 Either it's a really, really good trick, 469 00:25:21,903 --> 00:25:23,763 and we're part of that, 470 00:25:23,763 --> 00:25:26,493 or we're really tapping into something very, 471 00:25:26,493 --> 00:25:28,743 very fragile and then we should be- 472 00:25:28,743 --> 00:25:29,793 -: Cautious. 473 00:25:29,793 --> 00:25:32,253 -: So to be on the safe side, 474 00:25:32,253 --> 00:25:36,593 I would definitely say cautious is kind of our go-to. 475 00:25:36,593 --> 00:25:41,593 But I think that one way to see if we're really falling 476 00:25:42,633 --> 00:25:47,013 for that is to between the three of us. 477 00:25:47,013 --> 00:25:50,269 We can respond to the same story differently. 478 00:25:50,269 --> 00:25:52,936 (intense music) 479 00:26:08,933 --> 00:26:11,583 So with Bourdin we ran an experiment. 480 00:26:11,583 --> 00:26:13,643 It's known in the literature 481 00:26:13,643 --> 00:26:16,653 as the "Choice blindness" experiment. 482 00:26:16,653 --> 00:26:18,793 It was invented about 10 years ago, 483 00:26:18,793 --> 00:26:20,923 by two Swedish scientists, Klaus Hall, 484 00:26:20,923 --> 00:26:21,986 Peter Johansson, colleagues of mine 485 00:26:21,986 --> 00:26:23,383 that I work closely with. 486 00:26:23,383 --> 00:26:28,223 And they invented a clever way to make people cheat life. 487 00:26:30,913 --> 00:26:32,863 We show you two cards with two pictures 488 00:26:32,863 --> 00:26:34,313 of two people you don't know. 489 00:26:35,553 --> 00:26:37,983 And we ask you, who do you find more attractive? 490 00:26:37,983 --> 00:26:41,333 The person on the left or the person on the right? 491 00:26:41,333 --> 00:26:43,983 Afterwards, you will see the picture you chose again 492 00:26:43,983 --> 00:26:46,843 on the screen, just that picture. 493 00:26:46,843 --> 00:26:48,963 And I'm gonna ask you to just think 494 00:26:48,963 --> 00:26:51,703 about the reasons you chose this person. 495 00:26:51,703 --> 00:26:53,723 You did it a hundred times. 496 00:26:53,723 --> 00:26:55,353 It seems to you like, it's a simple experiment. 497 00:26:55,353 --> 00:26:57,443 And that's all that Bourdin knew. 498 00:26:57,443 --> 00:27:00,023 That he sees two pictures, he makes a decision, 499 00:27:00,023 --> 00:27:02,523 and then he has to explain why he made the choice. 500 00:27:10,183 --> 00:27:11,483 -: Because she look honest. 501 00:27:12,653 --> 00:27:13,996 Computer Voice: Trial two. 502 00:27:16,349 --> 00:27:18,703 Frederic: Innocent. 503 00:27:18,703 --> 00:27:20,253 Computer Voice: Trial three. 504 00:27:23,443 --> 00:27:24,733 -: She's more real. 505 00:27:24,733 --> 00:27:25,763 -: But there's a trick here. 506 00:27:25,763 --> 00:27:26,983 And a trick makes it interesting. 507 00:27:26,983 --> 00:27:29,483 The trick is that every now and then, 508 00:27:29,483 --> 00:27:31,246 maybe every 10 tries or so. 509 00:27:32,773 --> 00:27:35,143 If he chose the card on the left, 510 00:27:35,143 --> 00:27:35,976 I give him the card on the right. 511 00:27:35,976 --> 00:27:37,483 The card he didn't pick. 512 00:27:39,341 --> 00:27:40,766 And then he is confronted with a choice 513 00:27:40,766 --> 00:27:42,403 that he did not make. 514 00:27:42,403 --> 00:27:45,243 But he thinks I gave him the one he asked for. 515 00:27:45,243 --> 00:27:47,813 So when I asked him to explain his choice, 516 00:27:47,813 --> 00:27:49,873 he either as to tell me, "This isn't my choice, 517 00:27:49,873 --> 00:27:51,693 I don't know what happened here. It's a different card." 518 00:27:51,693 --> 00:27:55,533 Or he has to come up on the spot 519 00:27:55,533 --> 00:27:58,573 with a creative answer to a choice he didn't make, 520 00:27:58,573 --> 00:28:02,443 that will actually assume that it is his choice. 521 00:28:02,443 --> 00:28:05,813 And then we look at his brain and see how fast, 522 00:28:05,813 --> 00:28:09,926 how good, and how unique is he in coming up 523 00:28:09,926 --> 00:28:13,623 with a story that explains something he didn't make 524 00:28:13,623 --> 00:28:15,563 as if it was his choice. 525 00:28:15,563 --> 00:28:18,373 If you see that suddenly the activity moves 526 00:28:18,373 --> 00:28:21,913 from being very slow to very fast. 527 00:28:21,913 --> 00:28:25,633 You can characterize this as he is using memory 528 00:28:25,633 --> 00:28:26,863 more than usual. 529 00:28:26,863 --> 00:28:28,533 It's very hard to get that. 530 00:28:28,533 --> 00:28:31,413 So at least when I get that, I say, "Okay, 531 00:28:31,413 --> 00:28:35,343 this is a person for whom coming up with stories is easy 532 00:28:35,343 --> 00:28:39,899 and happens fast." So he is unique in that aspect. 533 00:28:39,899 --> 00:28:42,566 (intense music) 534 00:28:46,753 --> 00:28:49,153 -: So when you were 16, that was the first time 535 00:28:49,153 --> 00:28:51,563 that you ran away from the center. 536 00:28:51,563 --> 00:28:54,533 -: They didn't treat me well because I was weird, 537 00:28:54,533 --> 00:28:57,249 because I was different, because I was strange. 538 00:28:57,249 --> 00:28:58,963 -: So you ran away to Paris. 539 00:28:58,963 --> 00:29:01,713 -: So yeah, the first time I ran away to Paris, 540 00:29:01,713 --> 00:29:04,683 and I walked toward Paris in nighttime, 541 00:29:04,683 --> 00:29:08,313 in the middle of nowhere, I don't even know where I was. 542 00:29:08,313 --> 00:29:10,843 I met two men, two adult men. 543 00:29:10,843 --> 00:29:15,273 They invited me to a pub. They made me drink beer. 544 00:29:15,273 --> 00:29:17,843 Then they ask me as if I was gay. 545 00:29:17,843 --> 00:29:18,786 I told them not. 546 00:29:21,123 --> 00:29:22,746 And I saw a man following me. 547 00:29:26,123 --> 00:29:28,453 So I went into the phone booth. 548 00:29:28,453 --> 00:29:31,783 I called the police and I told him that I was a tourist. 549 00:29:31,783 --> 00:29:35,363 And I've seen an English child is it was 550 00:29:35,363 --> 00:29:38,943 about 14 years old and he needed assistance. 551 00:29:38,943 --> 00:29:40,033 He looked lost. 552 00:29:40,033 --> 00:29:41,443 -: Where did that thought come from? 553 00:29:41,443 --> 00:29:42,353 Where did that idea come from? 554 00:29:42,353 --> 00:29:45,053 And I can understand that you felt unsafe, 555 00:29:45,053 --> 00:29:47,703 and you felt that you wanted to do something. 556 00:29:47,703 --> 00:29:52,703 But why did that involve creating the identity of somebody? 557 00:29:53,483 --> 00:29:55,913 Well, particularly a British teenager, 558 00:29:55,913 --> 00:30:00,473 when you're a French teenager in Paris. 559 00:30:00,473 --> 00:30:01,836 -: I didn't like myself. 560 00:30:06,173 --> 00:30:08,183 -: We really need to address this issue, 561 00:30:08,183 --> 00:30:09,723 I think, before we move any further 562 00:30:09,723 --> 00:30:12,133 with our assessment of Frederic. 563 00:30:12,133 --> 00:30:15,823 I'm really keen to hear your observations 564 00:30:15,823 --> 00:30:19,533 about whether or not he is as vulnerable 565 00:30:19,533 --> 00:30:22,293 as he portrays himself to be. 566 00:30:22,293 --> 00:30:27,293 He is still somebody who is vulnerable, is traumatized. 567 00:30:28,993 --> 00:30:33,993 And he said, if he thought that he had caused distress 568 00:30:34,483 --> 00:30:38,573 to the family of Nicholas Barclay, which clearly he did, 569 00:30:38,573 --> 00:30:40,513 then he wouldn't be able to live with himself. 570 00:30:40,513 --> 00:30:42,513 He wouldn't want to be here anymore. 571 00:30:42,513 --> 00:30:44,203 -: When you first told me that, 572 00:30:44,203 --> 00:30:45,820 I didn't even know how to kind of think about it. 573 00:30:45,820 --> 00:30:48,629 And I went home and I kept thinking about it, 574 00:30:48,629 --> 00:30:52,273 and kept thinking about it and was extremely concerned. 575 00:30:52,273 --> 00:30:54,253 I basically imagined the worst case scenario, 576 00:30:54,253 --> 00:30:56,533 and said, would I tell myself, "Oh, 577 00:30:56,533 --> 00:30:58,780 but it was kind of a TV show. So it's okay." 578 00:30:58,780 --> 00:31:00,443 And I felt uncomfortable. 579 00:31:00,443 --> 00:31:02,693 -: When I looked at the footage of this, 580 00:31:02,693 --> 00:31:05,243 I notice he was referring to 15, 20, 581 00:31:05,243 --> 00:31:06,933 whatever many years ago this was. 582 00:31:06,933 --> 00:31:09,223 So that made me a little bit more comfortable. 583 00:31:09,223 --> 00:31:11,523 He was, "I wouldn't be here today 584 00:31:11,523 --> 00:31:14,003 if I'd felt that way then." 585 00:31:14,003 --> 00:31:17,326 -: Is he at risk of leaving here, 586 00:31:18,493 --> 00:31:23,493 and maybe showing up somewhere unexpected as a teenage boy 587 00:31:23,793 --> 00:31:26,470 because he said during my interview, 588 00:31:26,470 --> 00:31:27,673 "I could do this again. 589 00:31:27,673 --> 00:31:30,553 I've been thinking about it recently. 590 00:31:30,553 --> 00:31:32,103 I could get away with this again." 591 00:31:32,103 --> 00:31:33,273 And he told me in the corridor, 592 00:31:33,273 --> 00:31:36,443 not so long ago that he doesn't plan to go home from here. 593 00:31:36,443 --> 00:31:38,116 He plans to go to Serbia. 594 00:31:40,131 --> 00:31:45,131 (peaceful music) (owl hoo-ing) 595 00:31:52,390 --> 00:31:53,453 Hi. -: Hi. 596 00:31:53,453 --> 00:31:55,819 -: I've been looking for Moran everywhere, have you seen him? 597 00:31:55,819 --> 00:31:58,333 -: Oh no, it's been awhile since I saw him. 598 00:31:58,333 --> 00:32:00,816 -: Don't know what to make of Frederic Bourdin. 599 00:32:03,093 --> 00:32:07,143 He confuses me in some respects. Have you spoken to him? 600 00:32:07,143 --> 00:32:10,253 -: Yes, he kept saying how the world is just broken, 601 00:32:10,253 --> 00:32:12,443 and how sad everything is. And then- 602 00:32:12,443 --> 00:32:15,963 -: And did he make you feel sorry for him in particular? 603 00:32:15,963 --> 00:32:17,403 -: Yeah, I think so. 604 00:32:17,403 --> 00:32:20,153 Picture he gave to me was like, he did some mistakes, 605 00:32:20,153 --> 00:32:21,883 but it was not his fault. 606 00:32:21,883 --> 00:32:24,093 And now he's doing everything best he can 607 00:32:24,093 --> 00:32:26,183 in this horrible world to make things right. 608 00:32:26,183 --> 00:32:28,123 But also what I realize now you're saying, 609 00:32:28,123 --> 00:32:30,663 he was really looking at my face every once in a while, 610 00:32:30,663 --> 00:32:31,963 quite directly. 611 00:32:31,963 --> 00:32:34,573 And like, I think he was also seeing 612 00:32:34,573 --> 00:32:36,896 how I was feeling. -: Mhm. 613 00:32:36,896 --> 00:32:38,803 And you know what, he's very, very skilled at that. 614 00:32:38,803 --> 00:32:42,313 He is one of our most skilled con artists 615 00:32:42,313 --> 00:32:47,223 in assessing what other people are feeling. 616 00:32:47,223 --> 00:32:49,483 So he's incredibly perceptive in that way. 617 00:32:49,483 --> 00:32:50,316 -: Yeah. 618 00:32:50,316 --> 00:32:53,143 -: So I wonder if you were feeling more sympathy 619 00:32:53,143 --> 00:32:55,393 towards him, whether you would have had more 620 00:32:55,393 --> 00:32:57,413 of a personal story from him? 621 00:32:57,413 --> 00:32:59,993 -: No, he just told me about his children, 622 00:32:59,993 --> 00:33:02,253 and his wife and how his wife left him. 623 00:33:02,253 --> 00:33:05,123 And another sad story. There was a lot of sad stories. 624 00:33:05,123 --> 00:33:09,115 He doesn't trust anyone. He doesn't trust anyone. 625 00:33:09,115 --> 00:33:12,365 (intense somber music) 626 00:33:15,083 --> 00:33:17,733 -: For a con artist to choose the right victim, 627 00:33:17,733 --> 00:33:21,873 he needs to be able to read minds. 628 00:33:21,873 --> 00:33:23,753 This particular experiment, 629 00:33:23,753 --> 00:33:26,913 which features 10 men lying, or telling the truth, 630 00:33:26,913 --> 00:33:30,393 helps assess the con man's ability to read accurately 631 00:33:30,393 --> 00:33:32,966 what somebody truly believes. 632 00:33:34,303 --> 00:33:35,343 Make a judgment. 633 00:33:35,343 --> 00:33:37,003 -: I will. -: Circle. 634 00:33:37,003 --> 00:33:39,296 -: I will circle my first impression. 635 00:33:42,423 --> 00:33:45,023 -: They should be killed. I mean, should be executed. 636 00:33:45,973 --> 00:33:48,746 I personally couldn't partake in that decision. 637 00:33:48,746 --> 00:33:52,046 I mean, I wouldn't have an active part saying yes. 638 00:33:53,483 --> 00:33:56,323 But it has to be done. I mean. 639 00:33:59,944 --> 00:34:01,178 Interviewer: Well, why do you believe that? 640 00:34:01,178 --> 00:34:02,933 Why does it have to be done? 641 00:34:02,933 --> 00:34:05,223 -: Well, not necessarily have to, but I- 642 00:34:05,223 --> 00:34:08,283 Mark: The guys Bourdin is watching are asked to lie 643 00:34:08,283 --> 00:34:10,823 or tell the truth about their opinion 644 00:34:10,823 --> 00:34:13,753 on the death penalty, or banning smoking. 645 00:34:13,753 --> 00:34:17,617 So they either say they are in favor or against. 646 00:34:17,617 --> 00:34:21,803 Bourdin has to figure out whether they're lying or not. 647 00:34:21,803 --> 00:34:23,820 -: Are you lying to me now? -: No. 648 00:34:32,697 --> 00:34:35,446 -: Number six. (intense music) 649 00:34:56,376 --> 00:34:58,966 Okay, well thank you very much for doing this. 650 00:35:08,900 --> 00:35:10,923 -: So at times when, for example, 651 00:35:10,923 --> 00:35:13,913 you were found on the street, weren't you, 652 00:35:13,913 --> 00:35:16,503 by a couple in Munich. -: Yeah. 653 00:35:16,503 --> 00:35:19,033 -: Who wanted to adopt you. -: Yeah. 654 00:35:19,033 --> 00:35:22,413 -: Yeah, tell me about that. (intense music) 655 00:35:22,413 --> 00:35:24,763 -: I decided to lay down on the highway. 656 00:35:24,763 --> 00:35:27,203 That wasn't the first time I did it. 657 00:35:27,203 --> 00:35:30,049 So I knew that there was two option. 658 00:35:30,049 --> 00:35:32,233 Either the car go just on top of me, 659 00:35:32,233 --> 00:35:34,183 and that will be the end of the story. 660 00:35:34,183 --> 00:35:36,323 Or someone would stop, call the ambulance, 661 00:35:36,323 --> 00:35:37,383 the police, and whoever. 662 00:35:37,383 --> 00:35:38,593 That's exactly what happened. 663 00:35:38,593 --> 00:35:40,523 A car stop. Lots of people stopped. 664 00:35:40,523 --> 00:35:45,193 They called the police, the ambulance, and then there's me. 665 00:35:45,193 --> 00:35:48,053 And a very important question is how old are you? 666 00:35:48,053 --> 00:35:49,243 So I said 14. 667 00:35:49,243 --> 00:35:53,343 So they took me to the children hospital. 668 00:35:53,343 --> 00:35:58,123 And the next morning I saw a big black guy, 669 00:35:58,123 --> 00:35:59,533 and a nice lady coming. 670 00:35:59,533 --> 00:36:01,333 And they presented themselves. 671 00:36:01,333 --> 00:36:03,226 Their name were Bill and Jasmina. 672 00:36:04,723 --> 00:36:06,926 The man was from the United States. 673 00:36:08,473 --> 00:36:11,923 And you know, they stay with me, 674 00:36:11,923 --> 00:36:14,396 they bring me McDonald's and everything. 675 00:36:17,793 --> 00:36:20,103 But then at a certain point I wanted to leave. 676 00:36:20,103 --> 00:36:21,663 And so the police stopped me, 677 00:36:21,663 --> 00:36:26,663 and put me in a psychiatric children hospital. 678 00:36:27,133 --> 00:36:31,303 So I stayed there a few days and then came the question, 679 00:36:31,303 --> 00:36:32,663 what was gonna happen to me. 680 00:36:32,663 --> 00:36:35,043 They say "We want to put you in a children home, 681 00:36:35,043 --> 00:36:36,883 but the police first want 682 00:36:36,883 --> 00:36:39,053 to take your fingerprints and your picture." 683 00:36:39,053 --> 00:36:41,393 The German police immediately found out who I was 684 00:36:41,393 --> 00:36:44,413 because I've been acting very much in Germany. 685 00:36:44,413 --> 00:36:47,623 And then I called Bill and Jasmina, 686 00:36:47,623 --> 00:36:50,963 and they were mad at me because they discovered 687 00:36:50,963 --> 00:36:53,533 that I wasn't 14, that I was 19. 688 00:36:53,533 --> 00:36:55,703 -: That's it. So they were upset. 689 00:36:55,703 --> 00:36:58,403 They were upset to find that they had been hoodwinked. 690 00:37:07,833 --> 00:37:11,733 I think that people have an awful lot of empathy 691 00:37:11,733 --> 00:37:15,723 and sympathy with somebody who wants to be loved 692 00:37:15,723 --> 00:37:19,073 be cared for, and feel that they belong somewhere, 693 00:37:19,073 --> 00:37:21,123 because we all feel that. 694 00:37:21,123 --> 00:37:25,553 But it's the exploitative way that you went about it. 695 00:37:25,553 --> 00:37:29,863 And I feel that your background certainly explains that. 696 00:37:29,863 --> 00:37:31,843 It explains the behavior, 697 00:37:31,843 --> 00:37:35,193 but it doesn't justify the behavior. 698 00:37:35,193 --> 00:37:38,383 I think that you do try and justify your behavior somewhat. 699 00:37:38,383 --> 00:37:40,133 -: No. Explain it. 700 00:37:40,133 --> 00:37:42,763 Because there is no justification. 701 00:37:42,763 --> 00:37:46,066 There is only action, reaction. 702 00:37:47,893 --> 00:37:49,653 What you say makes sense. 703 00:37:49,653 --> 00:37:51,383 I understand what you're saying. 704 00:37:51,383 --> 00:37:55,376 I'm not in denial, but I'm at the same time 705 00:37:55,376 --> 00:37:59,906 have to tell you, what was I supposed to do? 706 00:38:05,583 --> 00:38:09,123 -: The hope was that he could go to America, 707 00:38:09,123 --> 00:38:14,123 and he would be enveloped in this wonderful, 708 00:38:14,133 --> 00:38:15,373 idyllic family life. 709 00:38:15,373 --> 00:38:17,013 Which of course it didn't turn out to be 710 00:38:17,013 --> 00:38:18,959 because he's chasing a fantasy. 711 00:38:18,959 --> 00:38:19,792 -: I guess next question is. 712 00:38:19,792 --> 00:38:22,193 Let's say he becomes perfect Nicolas Barclay, 713 00:38:22,193 --> 00:38:24,183 but the family still doesn't love Nicolas Barclay. 714 00:38:24,183 --> 00:38:25,576 Does he succeed or fail? 715 00:38:26,483 --> 00:38:28,683 -: He fails, but he sets himself up to fail, 716 00:38:28,683 --> 00:38:30,343 doesn't he constantly? 717 00:38:30,343 --> 00:38:35,343 Because if you are looking for love and affection, 718 00:38:37,273 --> 00:38:39,663 well, A, how realistic are you being? 719 00:38:39,663 --> 00:38:42,213 He's actually wanting to recreate a childhood 720 00:38:42,213 --> 00:38:43,743 that doesn't exist. 721 00:38:43,743 --> 00:38:45,973 There's no such thing as the perfect, 722 00:38:45,973 --> 00:38:50,003 Walton's childhood, is there really? 723 00:38:50,003 --> 00:38:53,046 Were you looking for some kind of family utopia? 724 00:38:54,203 --> 00:38:57,033 -: Shelters, family. I was looking. 725 00:38:57,033 --> 00:38:59,103 Sometime, I found those places. 726 00:38:59,103 --> 00:39:02,743 Where I was one, nobody give a damn 727 00:39:02,743 --> 00:39:04,903 about what was my real name? 728 00:39:04,903 --> 00:39:06,883 They call me new name I gave. 729 00:39:06,883 --> 00:39:11,413 I was just 14 years old Alex, or 14 years old Ernie. 730 00:39:11,413 --> 00:39:14,266 I was looking for this place where I could be, 731 00:39:16,073 --> 00:39:17,703 where I could have a normal childhood. 732 00:39:17,703 --> 00:39:20,433 Going to school, play sports. 733 00:39:20,433 --> 00:39:22,113 And that was what I was looking for. 734 00:39:22,113 --> 00:39:23,753 The perfect place. 735 00:39:23,753 --> 00:39:26,563 Loving mother with their kids hugging them. 736 00:39:26,563 --> 00:39:29,333 And you can see in their eyes and the way they speak 737 00:39:29,333 --> 00:39:31,223 that they love them. 738 00:39:31,223 --> 00:39:34,113 I wanted that. I didn't want nothing else. 739 00:39:34,113 --> 00:39:37,643 I didn't want no money, I didn't want Nike's, 740 00:39:37,643 --> 00:39:40,333 or I didn't want no comfort. 741 00:39:40,333 --> 00:39:42,623 I could have slept on the floor like a dog 742 00:39:42,623 --> 00:39:46,273 if I did have that. I didn't want nothing else. 743 00:39:46,273 --> 00:39:47,106 Just love. 744 00:39:48,623 --> 00:39:53,623 -: If you present a different identity to your own, 745 00:39:54,203 --> 00:39:58,253 to other people, you know in your heart of hearts, 746 00:39:58,253 --> 00:40:01,933 that whatever love and affection you are getting 747 00:40:01,933 --> 00:40:03,383 is based on a lie. 748 00:40:03,383 --> 00:40:05,423 -: He's not just saying, look, I'm Nicholas Barclay, 749 00:40:05,423 --> 00:40:08,493 but I'm Nicholas Barclay who has been traumatized. 750 00:40:08,493 --> 00:40:13,073 -: But by being this traumatized child over 751 00:40:13,073 --> 00:40:18,073 and over and over again, you are re-enacting trauma. 752 00:40:18,543 --> 00:40:22,053 You're re-enacting dysfunctional relationships 753 00:40:22,053 --> 00:40:25,883 all of the time and dysfunctional behavior all of the time. 754 00:40:25,883 --> 00:40:29,146 So it's never going to result in a happy ending. 755 00:40:32,403 --> 00:40:35,093 -: I knew I was gonna go to prison and I say, "Okay, 756 00:40:35,093 --> 00:40:38,466 I'm gonna go to prison." I took, I will pay. 757 00:40:50,351 --> 00:40:52,663 -: You were sentenced to six years in prison 758 00:40:52,663 --> 00:40:56,146 for passport fraud and perjury. 759 00:40:57,853 --> 00:41:02,013 So an American prison is a very, very different environment 760 00:41:02,013 --> 00:41:05,983 to a children's home, or a foster home, 761 00:41:05,983 --> 00:41:07,733 or a children's hospital. 762 00:41:07,733 --> 00:41:11,186 So how did you cope in that environment? 763 00:41:12,103 --> 00:41:15,083 -: Inmates knew very quickly 764 00:41:15,083 --> 00:41:17,183 that I could do absolutely anything. 765 00:41:17,183 --> 00:41:20,398 I could put needles into my arms. I cut cut my face. 766 00:41:20,398 --> 00:41:25,398 I could act crazy. And the guards aided this. 767 00:41:25,528 --> 00:41:27,553 -: So, it was an act then. 768 00:41:27,553 --> 00:41:32,243 So this wasn't you feeling that you wanted to self harm? 769 00:41:32,243 --> 00:41:33,963 This was you acting crazy? 770 00:41:33,963 --> 00:41:35,093 -: Both. -: Both. 771 00:41:35,093 --> 00:41:39,373 -: I wanted to cut my face, not deeply, just superficially. 772 00:41:39,373 --> 00:41:41,583 But you can make a lot of bloods anyway. 773 00:41:41,583 --> 00:41:43,273 And that was a clear message. 774 00:41:43,273 --> 00:41:47,543 So yes, it was manipulative, but at the same time, 775 00:41:47,543 --> 00:41:51,583 it felt good because it took my mind somewhere else. 776 00:41:51,583 --> 00:41:54,583 And at the same time, looking on the face and trust me, 777 00:41:54,583 --> 00:41:57,903 it's something of older inmates looking at you. 778 00:41:57,903 --> 00:42:01,043 And I'm talking about hundreds of inmates looking at you 779 00:42:01,043 --> 00:42:04,013 with blood everywhere, at least you know for sure 780 00:42:04,013 --> 00:42:07,313 that they weren't gonna come and look after you. 781 00:42:07,313 --> 00:42:11,253 Especially American, white American supremacist, 782 00:42:11,253 --> 00:42:12,783 and all this. They didn't like it. 783 00:42:12,783 --> 00:42:14,463 They smell problems with me. 784 00:42:14,463 --> 00:42:18,443 But then the Mexican, because I speak Spanish, 785 00:42:18,443 --> 00:42:21,133 because of, I don't know maybe my aura, 786 00:42:21,133 --> 00:42:25,473 I don't know what it is, adopted me. 787 00:42:25,473 --> 00:42:28,253 Really like a family, they were looking after me, 788 00:42:28,253 --> 00:42:29,873 we were eating together. 789 00:42:29,873 --> 00:42:32,273 -: And how much of the real Frederic Bourdin 790 00:42:32,273 --> 00:42:33,673 did you show to them? 791 00:42:33,673 --> 00:42:35,270 -: There was not much left. 792 00:42:35,270 --> 00:42:37,719 I was just a Mexican. 793 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,543 My accent was Mexican, my way of dressing was Mexican. 794 00:42:41,543 --> 00:42:43,123 Where and when there was fights, 795 00:42:43,123 --> 00:42:45,213 I had to be a Mexican. 796 00:42:45,213 --> 00:42:47,553 And I couldn't just go to a phone booth, 797 00:42:47,553 --> 00:42:48,386 and call the police and say, 798 00:42:48,386 --> 00:42:50,143 "I'm 14 years old and I'm in prison." 799 00:42:50,143 --> 00:42:55,143 So I had to be, and I had to become part of the environment. 800 00:42:58,103 --> 00:42:59,743 -: There's a number of ways you can try to lie. 801 00:42:59,743 --> 00:43:02,793 You can try to go the equivalent of the poker face. 802 00:43:02,793 --> 00:43:03,626 -: Yeah. 803 00:43:03,626 --> 00:43:04,936 -: Try to control your behavior. 804 00:43:06,583 --> 00:43:09,533 Some con artists try to create the backdrop. 805 00:43:09,533 --> 00:43:12,323 So if I'm kinda trying to convince other people 806 00:43:12,323 --> 00:43:15,733 that I am a prince, or some rich guy, 807 00:43:15,733 --> 00:43:18,083 I need to sort of paint the walls if you will. 808 00:43:18,083 --> 00:43:21,223 Put up stuff that looks really expensive, 809 00:43:21,223 --> 00:43:24,533 show up in a helicopter, or a private jet. 810 00:43:24,533 --> 00:43:28,176 And you let people deceive themselves about you. 811 00:43:28,176 --> 00:43:30,643 It's almost like you don't have to lie. 812 00:43:30,643 --> 00:43:32,343 But there's another way you can do this. 813 00:43:32,343 --> 00:43:36,903 And that is to so deeply inhabit a character, 814 00:43:36,903 --> 00:43:39,123 so to be able to sort of transport, 815 00:43:39,123 --> 00:43:41,883 like method acting right? -: Yeah. 816 00:43:41,883 --> 00:43:45,813 -: But for day-to-day life, not for a play, for a life. 817 00:43:45,813 --> 00:43:49,076 Not a lot of people can sort of turn into another character. 818 00:43:50,233 --> 00:43:52,553 And there are some branches of con artist, 819 00:43:52,553 --> 00:43:54,733 that's the method. 820 00:43:54,733 --> 00:43:58,574 It's hard to do, and I think this is what we have here. 821 00:43:58,574 --> 00:44:01,824 (intense somber music) 822 00:44:09,813 --> 00:44:12,343 Narrator: In 2003, Frederick Bourdin was released 823 00:44:12,343 --> 00:44:14,913 from prison and deported back to France. 824 00:44:14,913 --> 00:44:17,313 Bourdin moved to the French city of Grenoble, 825 00:44:17,313 --> 00:44:18,833 where he learned of the disappearance 826 00:44:18,833 --> 00:44:20,783 of the boy, Leo Belay. 827 00:44:20,783 --> 00:44:22,733 He assumed the identity of the boy, 828 00:44:22,733 --> 00:44:25,953 but a DNA test revealed Bourdin was lying. 829 00:44:25,953 --> 00:44:27,633 News Reporter 2: According to an American magazine, 830 00:44:27,633 --> 00:44:30,270 a psychiatrist evaluated Bourdin concluded, 831 00:44:30,270 --> 00:44:33,983 "We are very pessimistic about modifying-" (voice fades) 832 00:44:33,983 --> 00:44:37,273 -: I think it is true that he was always 833 00:44:37,273 --> 00:44:40,510 in this quest for love that he didn't have as a child. 834 00:44:40,510 --> 00:44:43,083 I think that is true. 835 00:44:43,083 --> 00:44:45,933 But it was not the only thing he was craving. 836 00:44:45,933 --> 00:44:47,983 He was also craving attention. 837 00:44:47,983 --> 00:44:51,536 It was very important for him that he was not a nobody. 838 00:44:53,847 --> 00:44:57,043 (Bourdin speaks Spanish) 839 00:44:57,043 --> 00:45:01,096 -: Welcome to my personal nightmare. 840 00:45:02,713 --> 00:45:07,713 -: And what I showed them is really what I am. 841 00:45:07,963 --> 00:45:12,963 Desperate somehow, sad, lost. 842 00:45:13,443 --> 00:45:15,803 And because human beings are, 843 00:45:15,803 --> 00:45:18,663 naturally I would say good inside. 844 00:45:18,663 --> 00:45:23,163 They look at me and they see what there is to see, 845 00:45:23,163 --> 00:45:25,673 not what I want to show them. 846 00:45:25,673 --> 00:45:30,673 -: The primary scale of anybody who wishes to deceive. 847 00:45:31,043 --> 00:45:35,003 But also because this is about con artistry. 848 00:45:35,003 --> 00:45:37,393 And I know that you don't like that term. 849 00:45:37,393 --> 00:45:41,406 But it's about evoking real emotions in people. Isn't it? 850 00:45:42,393 --> 00:45:47,146 -: It's evoking real emotion within myself first. 851 00:45:49,813 --> 00:45:52,483 When I did the thing so many times, 852 00:45:52,483 --> 00:45:54,770 it never occurred in my head to say, 853 00:45:54,770 --> 00:45:57,483 "Okay, I'm gonna deceive those people." No. 854 00:45:57,483 --> 00:46:00,813 -: It never occurred to you that you were deceiving them? 855 00:46:00,813 --> 00:46:04,403 -: I know that I was lying to them about my age, 856 00:46:04,403 --> 00:46:06,023 and my identity. 857 00:46:06,023 --> 00:46:09,990 But to me, it was more like a technical things. 858 00:46:11,873 --> 00:46:14,673 -: You never knew, really knew, where to stand with him 859 00:46:14,673 --> 00:46:19,603 because he would tell you that he was a liar. 860 00:46:19,603 --> 00:46:21,803 That he'd always been a liar. 861 00:46:21,803 --> 00:46:25,953 And the only thing he was not lying about is 862 00:46:25,953 --> 00:46:28,683 that the thing he was looking for, 863 00:46:28,683 --> 00:46:30,803 the thing he was after, was love. 864 00:46:30,803 --> 00:46:32,603 That's the only thing that was true. 865 00:46:34,193 --> 00:46:37,493 Frederic: Now today, I don't give a single- 866 00:46:37,493 --> 00:46:39,263 I don't care about myself. 867 00:46:39,263 --> 00:46:40,893 I only care about my kids. 868 00:46:40,893 --> 00:46:42,953 My children, they are my world. 869 00:46:42,953 --> 00:46:47,793 Kerry: Does that then fill the void that you felt? 870 00:46:47,793 --> 00:46:50,893 -: No. You cannot fill a void like mine. 871 00:46:50,893 --> 00:46:51,983 I wish you could. 872 00:46:51,983 --> 00:46:55,403 I wish there was an injection or something 873 00:46:55,403 --> 00:46:56,970 they would put on my arm and say, 874 00:46:56,970 --> 00:46:59,153 "That's it, no void anymore." 875 00:46:59,153 --> 00:47:02,023 -: So, what do you do to cope when you're 876 00:47:02,023 --> 00:47:03,806 not feeling so good at the moment? 877 00:47:04,833 --> 00:47:06,913 -: Well, I play video games. 878 00:47:06,913 --> 00:47:09,303 So that's, yeah. I love video games. 879 00:47:09,303 --> 00:47:12,623 Because video games, people don't see me. 880 00:47:12,623 --> 00:47:15,053 So I still can pretend I'm 14. 881 00:47:15,053 --> 00:47:17,010 I'm a kid that never grew up. 882 00:47:17,010 --> 00:47:19,026 I'm the real Peter Pan. That's me. 883 00:47:26,503 --> 00:47:28,983 Normal person would have jumped from a bridge 884 00:47:28,983 --> 00:47:33,483 or hanged themself, or end of this misery from long ago. 885 00:47:33,483 --> 00:47:38,396 But for some reason I keep with it. 886 00:47:47,454 --> 00:47:49,923 -: So it's hard to be you. 887 00:47:49,923 --> 00:47:51,103 -: Yeah. 888 00:47:51,103 --> 00:47:56,103 Yeah, because everything I did in my life 889 00:47:58,273 --> 00:48:03,273 as an adult was to feel good because I don't feel good. 890 00:48:05,693 --> 00:48:09,148 So when you don't feel good, you want to feel good. 891 00:48:09,148 --> 00:48:13,836 You want to feel normal. You want to feel happy. 892 00:48:15,175 --> 00:48:20,175 (somber music) (waves crashing) 893 00:48:24,113 --> 00:48:27,003 -: I'm really glad I got to speak to you a number of times, 894 00:48:27,003 --> 00:48:31,283 because I felt that I got the more authentic you 895 00:48:31,283 --> 00:48:33,713 after we'd spoken about your history. 896 00:48:33,713 --> 00:48:36,023 And I think I got the more spontaneous you. 897 00:48:36,023 --> 00:48:38,363 And I loved chatting to you in the garden. 898 00:48:38,363 --> 00:48:40,203 So I'm really glad that I got to know you 899 00:48:40,203 --> 00:48:42,313 a bit better over the whole process. 900 00:48:43,662 --> 00:48:47,636 I would say that you don't see yourself as a con artist 901 00:48:48,493 --> 00:48:53,303 because you were acting out of emotional need, 902 00:48:53,303 --> 00:48:55,883 rather than for financial gain. 903 00:48:55,883 --> 00:48:57,333 So it's the difference, isn't it? 904 00:48:57,333 --> 00:49:00,273 Between greedy and needy? 905 00:49:00,273 --> 00:49:01,106 -: Yeah. 906 00:49:01,106 --> 00:49:02,369 -: I accept that. 907 00:49:02,369 --> 00:49:04,103 What I will say is though. 908 00:49:04,103 --> 00:49:09,103 That when you are very focused on your own emotional needs, 909 00:49:09,763 --> 00:49:13,013 you can become insensitive, 910 00:49:13,013 --> 00:49:17,440 or blind to other people's emotional needs and rights. 911 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:18,273 -: That might be true. 912 00:49:18,273 --> 00:49:20,013 -: And I think that that is what has happened. 913 00:49:20,013 --> 00:49:20,903 -: Mhm hmm. 914 00:49:20,903 --> 00:49:22,693 -: When people are under stress, 915 00:49:22,693 --> 00:49:24,503 this increases the likelihood 916 00:49:24,503 --> 00:49:26,523 of doing the dominant response. 917 00:49:26,523 --> 00:49:28,613 The dominant response for you is 918 00:49:28,613 --> 00:49:30,283 to try to become someone else. 919 00:49:30,283 --> 00:49:32,423 Maybe some of the details of your past 920 00:49:32,423 --> 00:49:33,473 that you use to test, 921 00:49:34,596 --> 00:49:36,653 maybe a little bit more questionable in some ways. 922 00:49:36,653 --> 00:49:38,843 You study the characters, if you will. 923 00:49:38,843 --> 00:49:41,673 Almost, we use the word method acting. 924 00:49:41,673 --> 00:49:45,243 And that seems to be how you sort of approach this, 925 00:49:45,243 --> 00:49:46,076 and you inhabit this. 926 00:49:46,076 --> 00:49:48,723 And you'd mentioned this to Kerry to some extent. 927 00:49:48,723 --> 00:49:51,883 Asking about, well, what do you do to affect 928 00:49:51,883 --> 00:49:54,293 the appearance of a 15 year old? 929 00:49:54,293 --> 00:49:57,523 -: When you have to make choices and then explain them, 930 00:49:57,523 --> 00:50:02,413 you're much faster and much different 931 00:50:02,413 --> 00:50:04,473 than a lot of the other subjects 932 00:50:04,473 --> 00:50:06,913 in quickly coming up with a new story, 933 00:50:06,913 --> 00:50:09,813 and overwriting existing memories with a new narrative. 934 00:50:09,813 --> 00:50:13,813 And when you write a new story, it becomes reality. 935 00:50:13,813 --> 00:50:17,313 -: So, I'd like to give you a challenge 936 00:50:17,313 --> 00:50:19,633 because you've got some brilliant skills here, 937 00:50:19,633 --> 00:50:21,593 brilliant skills. 938 00:50:21,593 --> 00:50:24,273 If you feel the need, as I know that you do, 939 00:50:24,273 --> 00:50:29,273 to embody another person, to inhabit another persona 940 00:50:30,603 --> 00:50:33,676 for a while because it's difficult to be Frederic Bourdin. 941 00:50:34,913 --> 00:50:39,913 Then study and mimic a healthy adult 942 00:50:41,223 --> 00:50:44,293 because a healthy adult is somebody 943 00:50:44,293 --> 00:50:46,983 that knows that within them, of course, 944 00:50:46,983 --> 00:50:48,588 there's an inner child, 945 00:50:48,588 --> 00:50:50,753 and that inner child might be wounded. 946 00:50:50,753 --> 00:50:53,463 But they don't look for other people to nurture that. 947 00:50:53,463 --> 00:50:57,223 They nurture that wounded child themselves, 948 00:50:57,223 --> 00:51:02,223 and they are far more concerned for the people around them 949 00:51:02,447 --> 00:51:04,593 that maybe you did at times. 950 00:51:04,593 --> 00:51:09,593 And that's just a far more satisfying way of living life. 951 00:51:09,713 --> 00:51:11,753 And I believe that you've got the skills to do it. 952 00:51:11,753 --> 00:51:15,523 I really do. Does that make sense? 953 00:51:15,523 --> 00:51:16,936 -: It makes sense. -: Yeah. 954 00:51:18,093 --> 00:51:19,593 Will you try? 955 00:51:19,593 --> 00:51:23,074 -: I'm an eternal learner. So. Let's see. 956 00:51:23,074 --> 00:51:28,074 Okay. (somber music) 957 00:51:35,824 --> 00:51:38,157 -: Thank you. 958 00:51:38,157 --> 00:51:40,573 Kerry: Well, Frederic. Take care. 959 00:51:40,573 --> 00:51:43,156 (somber music)