1 00:00:00,336 --> 00:00:03,581 (wind blows) (waves crash) 2 00:00:03,581 --> 00:00:06,081 (tense music) 3 00:00:19,883 --> 00:00:22,696 Narrator: What happens in the mind of con artists? 4 00:00:24,253 --> 00:00:27,123 What makes their brain so well equipped 5 00:00:27,123 --> 00:00:28,756 for psychological trickery? 6 00:00:31,093 --> 00:00:32,226 Is it greed? 7 00:00:33,433 --> 00:00:34,526 A lack of empathy? 8 00:00:35,743 --> 00:00:36,576 Loose morals? 9 00:00:39,403 --> 00:00:43,686 Whatever it is, we are fascinated by con artists. 10 00:01:02,103 --> 00:01:04,193 Male Reporter: Shaun Greenhalgh from Bolton, England 11 00:01:04,193 --> 00:01:06,333 produced a large number of art forgeries 12 00:01:06,333 --> 00:01:08,533 over a period of more than two decades. 13 00:01:08,533 --> 00:01:10,303 Female Reporter: Aided by some members of his family, 14 00:01:10,303 --> 00:01:13,353 Shaun successfully sold his forgeries to museums, 15 00:01:13,353 --> 00:01:15,406 auction houses, and private buyers. 16 00:01:18,223 --> 00:01:20,053 Male Reporter: The Greenhalgh family fooled experts 17 00:01:20,053 --> 00:01:21,793 from all over the world -: Sold. 18 00:01:21,793 --> 00:01:23,123 Narrator: by claiming they had found 19 00:01:23,123 --> 00:01:25,876 or inherited extremely valuable works of art. 20 00:01:27,733 --> 00:01:29,033 Female Reporter: The Greenhalgh family 21 00:01:29,033 --> 00:01:31,603 lived a modest life in a Bolton council house. 22 00:01:31,603 --> 00:01:33,253 Male Reporter: His work has even been admired 23 00:01:33,253 --> 00:01:35,913 by some very high-profile art collectors 24 00:01:35,913 --> 00:01:37,946 and was even seen by the queen. 25 00:01:39,153 --> 00:01:40,633 Male Reporter: According to Scotland Yard, 26 00:01:40,633 --> 00:01:43,653 the family produced more than 100 fake artworks. 27 00:01:43,653 --> 00:01:46,333 It fears that a lot of their forgeries are still out there, 28 00:01:46,333 --> 00:01:47,946 mislabeled as originals. 29 00:01:49,073 --> 00:01:50,103 Female Reporter: He was eventually caught 30 00:01:50,103 --> 00:01:52,553 and sentenced to four and a half years in prison. 31 00:02:14,739 --> 00:02:19,739 (tires crunch in snow) (soft tense music) 32 00:02:22,283 --> 00:02:24,136 Narrator: We've all been lied to. 33 00:02:25,423 --> 00:02:27,383 We've all been offered something 34 00:02:27,383 --> 00:02:32,383 that is just too good to be true, and still, we fell for it. 35 00:02:33,663 --> 00:02:36,033 Although we love a good con, 36 00:02:36,033 --> 00:02:39,263 we hate it when it happens to us. 37 00:02:39,263 --> 00:02:42,393 To find out how to resist the manipulation, 38 00:02:42,393 --> 00:02:45,143 we invited some of the greatest con artists 39 00:02:45,143 --> 00:02:47,223 to our institute. 40 00:02:47,223 --> 00:02:49,463 Together with a team of experts, 41 00:02:49,463 --> 00:02:53,153 we are going to analyze their stories, pick their brains, 42 00:02:53,153 --> 00:02:56,036 and reveal what their body language tells us. 43 00:02:56,876 --> 00:02:57,733 (heels clack) 44 00:02:57,733 --> 00:03:00,443 Welcome to the institute. 45 00:03:00,443 --> 00:03:01,843 -: Hello, Mr. Greenhalgh. -: Hello. 46 00:03:01,843 --> 00:03:03,563 -: How do you do? -: Okay, thank you. 47 00:03:03,563 --> 00:03:04,396 -: Shall we? 48 00:03:06,604 --> 00:03:09,187 (heels clack) 49 00:03:20,733 --> 00:03:21,566 -: Hello. -: Hello. 50 00:03:21,566 --> 00:03:22,730 Hi, Shaun. -: Hello. 51 00:03:22,730 --> 00:03:23,703 -: Hello. -: Hello. 52 00:03:23,703 --> 00:03:25,723 -: So let me introduce myself. 53 00:03:25,723 --> 00:03:26,993 I'm Kerry Daynes, 54 00:03:26,993 --> 00:03:30,243 and I'm a consultant forensic psychologist, 55 00:03:30,243 --> 00:03:33,133 and I'm particularly interested in the childhoods 56 00:03:33,133 --> 00:03:36,753 and social histories of people who break the law. 57 00:03:36,753 --> 00:03:38,433 -: Okay. -: My name's Mark Frank. 58 00:03:38,433 --> 00:03:41,123 I'm a professor of behavioral science, 59 00:03:41,123 --> 00:03:45,693 and so we study people how they behave and what they do 60 00:03:45,693 --> 00:03:49,553 and in particular, how the things that you do on the outside 61 00:03:49,553 --> 00:03:53,373 may reveal what's going on on the inside 62 00:03:53,373 --> 00:03:57,673 and try to understand as well just how you process 63 00:03:57,673 --> 00:04:01,813 and think and deal with your world as best we can. 64 00:04:01,813 --> 00:04:04,263 -: I'm Moran Cerf, a professor of neuroscience, 65 00:04:04,263 --> 00:04:06,196 and I wanna understand how the things 66 00:04:06,196 --> 00:04:08,653 that are inside affect the things that are outside. 67 00:04:08,653 --> 00:04:10,523 So I'm gonna look at your brain and try to understand 68 00:04:10,523 --> 00:04:14,093 how your thoughts influence your decisions 69 00:04:14,093 --> 00:04:16,793 and your responses to things. 70 00:04:16,793 --> 00:04:18,553 Kerry: So how do you feel about all of that? 71 00:04:18,553 --> 00:04:20,093 -: A bit intimidated. -: Yeah. 72 00:04:20,093 --> 00:04:22,673 -: A bit like a goldfish in a bowl, but- 73 00:04:22,673 --> 00:04:24,203 -: Well look, the last thing that we want 74 00:04:24,203 --> 00:04:26,833 is for you to feel like a lab rat. 75 00:04:26,833 --> 00:04:29,773 But that said, we are going to ask you to take part 76 00:04:29,773 --> 00:04:33,153 in a number of interviews and assessments. 77 00:04:33,153 --> 00:04:34,603 -: Yeah. That's fair enough. -: Yeah? 78 00:04:34,603 --> 00:04:37,223 And we're definitely not here to diagnose you. 79 00:04:37,223 --> 00:04:39,243 It really is just a process of trying 80 00:04:39,243 --> 00:04:41,219 to understand your psychology -: Understand, yeah, 81 00:04:41,219 --> 00:04:42,483 -: better. -: Of course, of course. 82 00:04:42,483 --> 00:04:47,247 -: Okay. So for now, familiarize yourself with the institute. 83 00:04:47,247 --> 00:04:48,080 Shaun: Will do. 84 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:48,913 -: All right, then. -: Okay. 85 00:04:48,913 --> 00:04:49,746 -: Okay, see you soon. -: Okay. See you later. 86 00:04:49,746 --> 00:04:52,149 -: You will indeed. -: Okay. Bye bye. 87 00:04:52,149 --> 00:04:53,649 Kerry: Bye bye. 88 00:04:55,168 --> 00:04:57,918 (dramatic music) 89 00:05:18,006 --> 00:05:20,506 (heels clack) 90 00:05:21,403 --> 00:05:22,515 Hello. -: Hello. 91 00:05:22,515 --> 00:05:25,163 -: Have you had a few moments to relax 92 00:05:25,163 --> 00:05:27,182 and gather your thoughts? -: Yeah. 93 00:05:27,182 --> 00:05:29,573 Some contemplative thoughts. -: Yeah? Good. 94 00:05:29,573 --> 00:05:34,573 Well, this is your opportunity to tell me your story. 95 00:05:34,823 --> 00:05:35,913 -: Okay. -: So when 96 00:05:35,913 --> 00:05:39,283 did you sell your first out and out forgery? 97 00:05:39,283 --> 00:05:42,963 -: I think it was 17 Or 18. I can't exactly remember. 98 00:05:42,963 --> 00:05:44,973 I went into the library, which I frequented often, 99 00:05:44,973 --> 00:05:47,313 and this lady there was taking all these fly sheets off, 100 00:05:47,313 --> 00:05:49,243 and I noticed a pile of them on the table. 101 00:05:49,243 --> 00:05:52,403 Some of them were watermark dated like 1850s, 102 00:05:52,403 --> 00:05:54,743 so I took them, rolled the whole bundle up. 103 00:05:54,743 --> 00:05:57,983 I thought, "I'd ought to try Degas," just simple ones. 104 00:05:57,983 --> 00:06:00,943 So I scribbled about five or six off. I always do that. 105 00:06:00,943 --> 00:06:04,383 I do five or six quickly to get the spontaneity to them 106 00:06:04,383 --> 00:06:05,563 'cause if you drag it out, 107 00:06:05,563 --> 00:06:07,073 the experts can see it right away. 108 00:06:07,073 --> 00:06:08,743 They've gotta spontaneous. 109 00:06:08,743 --> 00:06:11,043 -: Well, you can't have possibly been thinking that at 17, 110 00:06:11,043 --> 00:06:12,713 could you? -: Yeah. 111 00:06:12,713 --> 00:06:14,853 -: The experts would be able to 112 00:06:14,853 --> 00:06:15,686 -: Yeah, yeah. 113 00:06:15,686 --> 00:06:18,983 I was I'd like studied art, 114 00:06:18,983 --> 00:06:22,703 and I knew about spontaneity in work 115 00:06:22,703 --> 00:06:25,298 that the originals have the spontaneity. 116 00:06:25,298 --> 00:06:28,773 So anyway, I needed old paper. I needed spontaneity. 117 00:06:28,773 --> 00:06:29,693 I went through a list in my head 118 00:06:29,693 --> 00:06:31,723 of what I'd need for a fake. 119 00:06:31,723 --> 00:06:32,883 So I bashed about half a dozen. 120 00:06:32,883 --> 00:06:34,580 I've looked through them with a critical eye to say, 121 00:06:34,580 --> 00:06:36,803 "Well, I think that one's the best." 122 00:06:36,803 --> 00:06:38,963 I took it into this art dealer, 123 00:06:38,963 --> 00:06:40,913 really nervous and terrified. 124 00:06:40,913 --> 00:06:42,893 Experts can tell when it's like 100 years old. 125 00:06:42,893 --> 00:06:45,453 They can tell like that. It's a difficult thing to get. 126 00:06:45,453 --> 00:06:48,216 So I was quite, quite nervous and frightened. 127 00:06:49,063 --> 00:06:50,983 I thought he'd spot it right away. 128 00:06:50,983 --> 00:06:52,233 If he goes out and rings the police, 129 00:06:52,233 --> 00:06:53,933 I thought I've got a vision about jumping out the window 130 00:06:53,933 --> 00:06:56,230 and running up the street away from it all. 131 00:06:56,230 --> 00:06:57,403 Got it in my mind. 132 00:06:57,403 --> 00:06:59,303 Anyway, he came in and had a look at it as usual, 133 00:06:59,303 --> 00:07:01,883 put it up on the easel and stood back back and this and that 134 00:07:01,883 --> 00:07:04,613 then eventually took it out to its frame. 135 00:07:04,613 --> 00:07:06,553 The he was cutting it with his pen knife. 136 00:07:06,553 --> 00:07:09,253 He said, "This has been in its frame for 1,800 years." 137 00:07:10,113 --> 00:07:11,753 Anyway, in the end, he gave me a piece of paper 138 00:07:11,753 --> 00:07:15,163 for receiving and ended up in a sale in London. 139 00:07:15,163 --> 00:07:16,063 I sold to a dealer. 140 00:07:16,063 --> 00:07:17,283 I thought that's the end of it, 141 00:07:17,283 --> 00:07:20,813 but the dealer passes it on to a collector, 142 00:07:20,813 --> 00:07:23,653 and there are the injured innocent party in all of this. 143 00:07:23,653 --> 00:07:26,193 I think a lot of the time they knew they were fakes, 144 00:07:26,193 --> 00:07:27,803 but with the other eye, 145 00:07:27,803 --> 00:07:30,263 they knew they were good enough to pass off. 146 00:07:30,263 --> 00:07:31,096 -: So it seems to me 147 00:07:31,096 --> 00:07:33,373 that you felt a little conflict about that. 148 00:07:33,373 --> 00:07:34,466 You didn't feel you- -: Yeah, 149 00:07:34,466 --> 00:07:37,613 I always felt conflicted over it. 150 00:07:37,613 --> 00:07:40,193 Sometimes I think, "I shouldn't be doing this. 151 00:07:40,193 --> 00:07:43,583 I think, "Well, they they're doing it to others." 152 00:07:43,583 --> 00:07:45,223 I know two wrongs don't make a right. I know that. 153 00:07:45,223 --> 00:07:47,330 My mum drilled that into me when I was a little boy. 154 00:07:47,330 --> 00:07:49,573 "Two wrongs never make a right." 155 00:07:49,573 --> 00:07:52,753 But I am a bit conflicted. I think I always have been. 156 00:07:52,753 --> 00:07:57,493 -: It seems to me that he's not enjoying this con 157 00:07:57,493 --> 00:07:59,537 at this stage at all. 158 00:07:59,537 --> 00:08:02,083 -: There is a fear of judging him as an artist 159 00:08:02,083 --> 00:08:05,326 and this angst that he's had with his life about that, 160 00:08:06,363 --> 00:08:08,113 and he has also mentioned the fear 161 00:08:08,113 --> 00:08:10,280 of getting away with this stuff, right? 162 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,650 "Are they going to believe me?" He talked about it. 163 00:08:12,650 --> 00:08:14,143 "I just think they would send me out. 164 00:08:14,143 --> 00:08:16,463 I'm getting ready to run. They're gonna call the police." 165 00:08:16,463 --> 00:08:17,763 And then when they didn't, 166 00:08:17,763 --> 00:08:20,273 and then you've got somebody who is coming in here. 167 00:08:20,273 --> 00:08:22,123 He is on pretty high alert. 168 00:08:22,123 --> 00:08:24,533 So his emotional system is running pretty high, 169 00:08:24,533 --> 00:08:27,383 and so these expressions are popping out as he's talking 170 00:08:27,383 --> 00:08:29,343 about these very critical moments, 171 00:08:29,343 --> 00:08:31,333 but we'll just focus on a few. -: So it's a deeply 172 00:08:31,333 --> 00:08:33,903 uncomfortable interview for him, isn't it? 173 00:08:33,903 --> 00:08:34,736 -: It is. 174 00:08:36,003 --> 00:08:37,246 If we go backwards, 175 00:08:39,177 --> 00:08:41,666 if you look at his eyebrows here, 176 00:08:43,093 --> 00:08:47,943 to pull up and together like this is what we see in fear, 177 00:08:47,943 --> 00:08:49,373 and there's a little bit of a stretch 178 00:08:49,373 --> 00:08:51,653 in the mouth, too, in this muscle here, 179 00:08:51,653 --> 00:08:54,553 which is part of an uninhibited fear face. 180 00:08:54,553 --> 00:08:58,336 And just as a general comment about the interview itself, 181 00:08:59,883 --> 00:09:01,203 he's nervous. 182 00:09:01,203 --> 00:09:03,543 His right hand the entire time, 183 00:09:03,543 --> 00:09:05,063 and if you've been on airplanes 184 00:09:05,063 --> 00:09:06,353 and people who are afraid of flying, 185 00:09:06,353 --> 00:09:08,463 they have this death grip on the chair, 186 00:09:08,463 --> 00:09:09,433 -: White knuckle tight. -: Yeah. 187 00:09:09,433 --> 00:09:11,593 He's white knuckled on the right. 188 00:09:11,593 --> 00:09:13,973 All the way throughout this, except for certain points, 189 00:09:13,973 --> 00:09:15,473 when he gets engaged in something, 190 00:09:15,473 --> 00:09:16,853 then that hand will come off and move. 191 00:09:16,853 --> 00:09:19,603 But normally, it's down there. 192 00:09:19,603 --> 00:09:23,073 -: This environment is so stressful for him though, isn't it? 193 00:09:23,073 --> 00:09:26,373 At the institute, he's under such a level of scrutiny, 194 00:09:26,373 --> 00:09:31,103 which, for somebody who is, he's not the gravitate 195 00:09:31,103 --> 00:09:34,023 to the limelight type like we've seen. 196 00:09:34,023 --> 00:09:37,933 He is very, self contained shy, introverted, 197 00:09:37,933 --> 00:09:41,983 and you've got us analyzing him to this degree. 198 00:09:41,983 --> 00:09:44,347 I think I'd be terrified as well. 199 00:09:44,347 --> 00:09:49,347 (tense brooding music) (wind blows) 200 00:09:50,927 --> 00:09:54,343 (tense music) 201 00:09:54,343 --> 00:09:57,413 -: EEG is a tool to measure brain activity. 202 00:09:57,413 --> 00:09:59,943 It looks like a swim cap. It has electrodes on it. 203 00:09:59,943 --> 00:10:01,743 You put on your surface of the head, 204 00:10:01,743 --> 00:10:04,353 and it listens to brain cells deep inside. 205 00:10:04,353 --> 00:10:07,393 Perfect. Make yourself comfortable. 206 00:10:07,393 --> 00:10:10,880 Does it poke to much into your skull? 207 00:10:11,770 --> 00:10:14,263 -: No, it's fine. -: We run an experiment 208 00:10:14,263 --> 00:10:17,783 that's known as the choice lightness experiment, 209 00:10:17,783 --> 00:10:18,923 and it goes like this. 210 00:10:18,923 --> 00:10:23,243 You will see two pictures of two women, 211 00:10:23,243 --> 00:10:25,443 and we ask you, "Who do you find more attractive?" 212 00:10:25,443 --> 00:10:27,013 -: Right one. 213 00:10:27,013 --> 00:10:29,493 -: And now it ask you to think in your mind 214 00:10:30,423 --> 00:10:32,403 why you chose this particular picture. 215 00:10:32,403 --> 00:10:34,276 -: I thought it a prettier image. 216 00:10:39,993 --> 00:10:42,700 Computer: Trial 10. 217 00:10:42,700 --> 00:10:44,506 -: Again, a prettier visage, I think. 218 00:10:46,671 --> 00:10:48,523 -: You make a choice, you explain it, you move on. 219 00:10:48,523 --> 00:10:50,433 You did it a hundred times. 220 00:10:50,433 --> 00:10:52,903 -: And again, difficult to choose between the two, 221 00:10:52,903 --> 00:10:54,703 so I wasn't sure. 222 00:10:54,703 --> 00:10:55,682 But there's a trick here, 223 00:10:55,682 --> 00:10:57,641 and the trick makes it interesting. 224 00:10:57,641 --> 00:10:58,963 The trick is that every now and then, 225 00:10:58,963 --> 00:11:01,343 if he chose the card on the left, 226 00:11:01,343 --> 00:11:04,453 I give him the card on the right, the card he didn't pick. 227 00:11:04,453 --> 00:11:06,903 He is confronted with a choice that he did not make, 228 00:11:06,903 --> 00:11:09,243 but he thinks I gave him the one he asked for. 229 00:11:09,243 --> 00:11:11,393 When I asked him to explain his choice, 230 00:11:11,393 --> 00:11:13,443 he either is to tell me, "This isn't my choice. 231 00:11:13,443 --> 00:11:15,733 I don't know what happened here. It's a different card." 232 00:11:15,733 --> 00:11:19,913 Or he has to come up on the spot with a creative answer 233 00:11:19,913 --> 00:11:22,223 to a choice he didn't make that would actually assume 234 00:11:22,223 --> 00:11:23,676 that it is his choice. 235 00:11:26,274 --> 00:11:29,370 -: I think there's slightly a happier face on the other one, 236 00:11:29,370 --> 00:11:31,893 but I may have got this the wrong way around. 237 00:11:31,893 --> 00:11:35,910 -: He chose A, he gets B, and he says, 238 00:11:35,910 --> 00:11:37,913 "I like B because the smile is great." 239 00:11:37,913 --> 00:11:40,083 For that to happen in his brain, 240 00:11:40,083 --> 00:11:42,653 first, when the choice was in front of him, 241 00:11:42,653 --> 00:11:44,233 he had to use a part of the brain, 242 00:11:44,233 --> 00:11:46,533 the frontal lobe, to actually make a decision. 243 00:11:50,363 --> 00:11:52,103 Computer: Trial 27. 244 00:11:52,103 --> 00:11:55,503 -: Serious but pleasant looking, I think. 245 00:11:55,503 --> 00:11:59,843 -: And then we look at his brain and see how fast, how good, 246 00:11:59,843 --> 00:12:04,313 and how unique is he in coming up with a story 247 00:12:04,313 --> 00:12:06,673 that explains something he didn't make 248 00:12:06,673 --> 00:12:08,243 as if it was his choice. 249 00:12:08,243 --> 00:12:12,213 So in some trials, you saw two pictures, 250 00:12:12,213 --> 00:12:15,961 you made a choice, and then I showed you the other one, 251 00:12:15,961 --> 00:12:16,794 the one you didn't choose. 252 00:12:19,668 --> 00:12:21,413 -: Occasionally, I thought, "That isn't the one I chose." 253 00:12:21,413 --> 00:12:23,933 -: Why didn't you say that? -: Well, I didn't like to say, 254 00:12:23,933 --> 00:12:26,113 but I think I should've done as part of the trial. 255 00:12:26,113 --> 00:12:28,013 -: But whatever it is, either he's a very nice person 256 00:12:28,013 --> 00:12:30,803 who didn't wanna offend me so he changed reality just 257 00:12:30,803 --> 00:12:32,063 to make my life easier. 258 00:12:32,063 --> 00:12:33,353 He said, "I'm not gonna upset this guy, 259 00:12:33,353 --> 00:12:35,493 so I'm gonna just make up a story." 260 00:12:35,493 --> 00:12:39,623 -: And yet he tends to think he's fairly inscrutable, 261 00:12:39,623 --> 00:12:43,033 but yet there were lots and lots and lots of emotions 262 00:12:43,033 --> 00:12:45,713 that we see with him and more so than almost anybody else. 263 00:12:45,713 --> 00:12:47,953 -: Either way, he is good in coming up with stories, 264 00:12:47,953 --> 00:12:50,023 and that's manipulation that, in the brain, 265 00:12:50,023 --> 00:12:53,103 requires mental gymnastics to change reality, 266 00:12:53,103 --> 00:12:55,173 and it does that extremely fast as well. 267 00:12:55,173 --> 00:12:56,473 And then when you look at the brain itself, 268 00:12:56,473 --> 00:12:58,673 you can see which areas of the brain are the ones doing that 269 00:12:58,673 --> 00:13:00,773 and how fast they operate, and in that sense, 270 00:13:00,773 --> 00:13:03,163 I think the results that I find were interesting 271 00:13:03,163 --> 00:13:07,557 in that it takes him a lot less time than you and I. 272 00:13:07,557 --> 00:13:10,557 (soft tense music) 273 00:13:11,398 --> 00:13:16,293 -: How did your father become involved in your art dealings? 274 00:13:16,293 --> 00:13:19,363 -: So I remember my dad retired. He hated retirement. 275 00:13:19,363 --> 00:13:20,293 He asked me what I was doing. 276 00:13:20,293 --> 00:13:22,573 I said, "I'm going off to London selling a painting." 277 00:13:22,573 --> 00:13:24,453 I didn't say it was a fake at the time. 278 00:13:24,453 --> 00:13:26,963 -: You didn't? And this was a Samuel Peploe fake? 279 00:13:26,963 --> 00:13:29,873 -: Yes, and he said, "Can I come with you?" 280 00:13:29,873 --> 00:13:31,883 It's a long one, so I said, "Yeah, okay." Then we got there. 281 00:13:31,883 --> 00:13:35,103 He said, "I think I know what you're up to, Shaun." 282 00:13:35,103 --> 00:13:36,503 I came clean with him then in the car. 283 00:13:36,503 --> 00:13:38,433 We talked for an hour. 284 00:13:38,433 --> 00:13:39,703 Kerry: This conversation that you had 285 00:13:39,703 --> 00:13:40,963 in the car for an hour, 286 00:13:40,963 --> 00:13:43,086 -: Yeah. -: what was it? 287 00:13:43,086 --> 00:13:44,383 -: He just came out with it. 288 00:13:44,383 --> 00:13:46,063 He said, "Are you selling fakes?" 289 00:13:46,063 --> 00:13:48,527 So I just told him. I said, "Yeah, Dad, I'm selling fakes. 290 00:13:48,527 --> 00:13:49,360 What do you think about it?" 291 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,193 I think his response was he just smiled at me 292 00:13:51,193 --> 00:13:52,026 and grinned and said, 293 00:13:52,026 --> 00:13:54,843 "I thought you were up to that, you little bugger." 294 00:13:54,843 --> 00:13:57,643 And my dad said, "Could I take this picture?" 295 00:13:57,643 --> 00:14:00,173 He seemed to be very convincing. 296 00:14:00,173 --> 00:14:05,043 -: Do you think that he understood the gravity, actually, 297 00:14:05,043 --> 00:14:08,523 of what you were doing in terms of the consequences 298 00:14:08,523 --> 00:14:09,723 -: Yeah. -: legally? 299 00:14:09,723 --> 00:14:10,873 -: Yeah, I think he did. 300 00:14:11,743 --> 00:14:13,460 -: Was there a conversation about, 301 00:14:13,460 --> 00:14:15,393 "Right, this is how you do the deal 302 00:14:15,393 --> 00:14:18,293 and this is how you make it convincing"? 303 00:14:18,293 --> 00:14:19,500 -: The only thing I said to my dad, I said, 304 00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:22,823 "Say to the dealer, 'Could you tell me what this is, 305 00:14:22,823 --> 00:14:24,593 and would you be interested in buying it?' 306 00:14:24,593 --> 00:14:26,093 And leave the lead with them." 307 00:14:26,093 --> 00:14:27,480 Anyway, he took it, 308 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:29,334 and I always carried a little Sony recorder, 309 00:14:29,334 --> 00:14:30,542 put in in my pocket. 310 00:14:30,542 --> 00:14:31,375 It was recording the conversation. 311 00:14:31,375 --> 00:14:32,923 I'd put it in for him just so I 312 00:14:32,923 --> 00:14:34,673 could hear what the dealer was talking about. 313 00:14:34,673 --> 00:14:36,663 -: Why didn't you just have one on your person? 314 00:14:36,663 --> 00:14:40,763 -: It was my way of keeping a record of the deals, 315 00:14:40,763 --> 00:14:43,233 just a pocket recorder, and I can like go back 316 00:14:43,233 --> 00:14:45,463 and see what they were talking about. 317 00:14:45,463 --> 00:14:48,583 -: Early to mid 90s, I was contacted 318 00:14:48,583 --> 00:14:51,003 at Scotland yard where I set up the art squad 319 00:14:52,124 --> 00:14:53,913 by an art dealer called Peter Nahum. 320 00:14:53,913 --> 00:14:56,443 He had been approached by a guy 321 00:14:56,443 --> 00:14:59,283 who had been driven to London by their 40 year, 322 00:14:59,283 --> 00:15:04,283 40-ish-year-old son, and so they were selling the painting. 323 00:15:04,803 --> 00:15:07,803 And Peter had looked at it. He thought it was a good Peploe. 324 00:15:09,693 --> 00:15:11,293 At the time, the paintings were selling 325 00:15:11,293 --> 00:15:13,626 for 30 to 40,000 pounds, 326 00:15:14,563 --> 00:15:19,533 and he paid them roundabout 10,000 for it 327 00:15:19,533 --> 00:15:23,403 and gave them part cash and wrote out a check 328 00:15:23,403 --> 00:15:26,613 for the rest of the money, the lion's share of the money. 329 00:15:26,613 --> 00:15:29,933 -: If something has a good provenance, then it sells. 330 00:15:29,933 --> 00:15:33,083 If there's a plausible provenance, 331 00:15:33,083 --> 00:15:34,883 I think the experts stop looking. 332 00:15:34,883 --> 00:15:37,063 They stop looking at the real thing. 333 00:15:37,063 --> 00:15:38,633 That's the only way I can describe the way some 334 00:15:38,633 --> 00:15:40,243 of the stuff I'd made that 335 00:15:40,243 --> 00:15:42,003 should never have got through, got through. 336 00:15:42,003 --> 00:15:44,353 -: Provenance is really important in an artwork 337 00:15:44,353 --> 00:15:47,633 because it's the background, the storyline that tells you 338 00:15:47,633 --> 00:15:50,133 how the artwork got to where it is now. 339 00:15:50,133 --> 00:15:52,453 So it's when it was painted, who painted it, 340 00:15:52,453 --> 00:15:56,113 but more importantly, who's owned it and where it's been. 341 00:15:56,113 --> 00:15:58,383 -: Peter contacted the Peploe expert, 342 00:15:58,383 --> 00:16:00,373 who was a guy called Tom Hewlett. 343 00:16:00,373 --> 00:16:02,823 Tom had laughed when he heard that Peter 344 00:16:02,823 --> 00:16:04,533 had bought this painting because he, too, 345 00:16:04,533 --> 00:16:05,903 had been offered this picture. 346 00:16:05,903 --> 00:16:08,963 To Tom, it clearly was not by the hand of Peploe. 347 00:16:08,963 --> 00:16:11,023 Tom had then checked out the gallery, 348 00:16:11,023 --> 00:16:14,673 the label on the back of this painting purporting 349 00:16:14,673 --> 00:16:18,343 to be from this gallery in Edinburgh, 350 00:16:18,343 --> 00:16:21,603 and this is one of the ways when you see. 351 00:16:21,603 --> 00:16:24,093 You always wanna look at the back of a painting, 352 00:16:24,093 --> 00:16:26,353 exhibition labels, dealers' labels. 353 00:16:26,353 --> 00:16:30,333 They help prove and build up a provenance of the painting, 354 00:16:30,333 --> 00:16:31,233 the history of it. 355 00:16:32,093 --> 00:16:34,113 And Tom had checked out the gallery 356 00:16:34,113 --> 00:16:35,823 and found that, actually, the street numbers 357 00:16:35,823 --> 00:16:38,873 didn't even go up as high as this was claiming, 358 00:16:38,873 --> 00:16:41,273 and the art gallery had never existed. 359 00:16:41,273 --> 00:16:43,933 So he was certain in his mind that this 360 00:16:44,803 --> 00:16:47,623 was a fake and an attempted deception. 361 00:16:47,623 --> 00:16:50,790 (soft ethereal music) 362 00:17:05,863 --> 00:17:08,203 -: Shaun, thanks for being willing 363 00:17:08,203 --> 00:17:10,103 to take a few of these assessments for us. 364 00:17:10,103 --> 00:17:11,706 -: Okay. 365 00:17:11,706 --> 00:17:14,053 -: The first test we're going to show you 366 00:17:14,053 --> 00:17:16,043 are a series of videos. 367 00:17:16,043 --> 00:17:19,143 They're about one minute long and they feature people 368 00:17:19,143 --> 00:17:22,243 who are lying or telling the truth 369 00:17:22,243 --> 00:17:24,763 about a strongly held opinion. 370 00:17:24,763 --> 00:17:28,833 Your job is to watch the one-minute video when it pops up 371 00:17:28,833 --> 00:17:32,113 and then circle on the form here the word truth 372 00:17:32,113 --> 00:17:33,973 if you thought they were telling the truth 373 00:17:33,973 --> 00:17:36,570 and lie if you think they were lying. 374 00:17:37,854 --> 00:17:39,059 -: [Interviewer On Video] And what is your opinion 375 00:17:39,059 --> 00:17:39,892 on this issue? 376 00:17:39,892 --> 00:17:41,904 -: Should cold-blooded murderers be killed? 377 00:17:41,904 --> 00:17:43,987 I believe they should be. 378 00:17:46,246 --> 00:17:48,486 (muffled speaking) 379 00:17:48,486 --> 00:17:52,263 -: I think I base it on eye for eye, tooth for tooth, 380 00:17:52,263 --> 00:17:54,706 and I feel that it's justice. 381 00:17:57,001 --> 00:17:58,303 -: [Interviewer On Video] What is your opinion? 382 00:17:58,303 --> 00:18:01,036 -: They should be killed, should be executed. 383 00:18:01,883 --> 00:18:05,303 I personally couldn't partake in that decision, 384 00:18:05,303 --> 00:18:07,970 and I wouldn't have an active part saying, "Yes." 385 00:18:11,313 --> 00:18:12,903 Man On Video: I feel that cold-blooded murderers 386 00:18:12,903 --> 00:18:14,737 should be executed. 387 00:18:14,737 --> 00:18:16,062 -: [Interviewer On Video] And why do you believe 388 00:18:16,062 --> 00:18:17,676 what you do on this issue? -: Because they do not 389 00:18:17,676 --> 00:18:19,926 have the right to take another person's life. 390 00:18:26,562 --> 00:18:27,395 Mark: Okay, very good. 391 00:18:27,395 --> 00:18:30,346 -: Some of them were hard to, close calls. 392 00:18:31,913 --> 00:18:33,563 -: Yep, there's always be an element of that. 393 00:18:33,563 --> 00:18:36,993 Now just to give you a little bit more detail, 394 00:18:36,993 --> 00:18:38,923 there's often lots of subtle behaviors 395 00:18:38,923 --> 00:18:41,763 that occur when people lie or tell the truth, 396 00:18:41,763 --> 00:18:43,853 and some people are really good at perceiving that. 397 00:18:43,853 --> 00:18:46,403 Others are not, and those who are good 398 00:18:46,403 --> 00:18:49,873 at that often do a little better job navigating their worlds 399 00:18:49,873 --> 00:18:52,293 or just reading people in general. 400 00:18:52,293 --> 00:18:54,263 So that test is a bit of a proxy 401 00:18:54,263 --> 00:18:57,503 for your ability to do that. 402 00:18:57,503 --> 00:19:00,918 So we'll assess it and see what's coming up on that. 403 00:19:00,918 --> 00:19:05,918 (contemplative music) (water trickles) 404 00:19:06,013 --> 00:19:08,573 -: He's talented in coming up with a story, 405 00:19:08,573 --> 00:19:12,613 and I think his con artistry was partially the ability 406 00:19:12,613 --> 00:19:15,523 to do the sculptures and the painting and so on, 407 00:19:15,523 --> 00:19:17,783 but partially, coming up with a story. 408 00:19:17,783 --> 00:19:20,193 He was fast to read a story my test. 409 00:19:20,193 --> 00:19:22,653 His brain manifested at the speed 410 00:19:22,653 --> 00:19:24,073 by which he is able to do that 411 00:19:24,073 --> 00:19:26,243 and the ease by which you can do that, 412 00:19:26,243 --> 00:19:28,523 and I think that it's nice 413 00:19:28,523 --> 00:19:29,923 to get the validation of the brain. 414 00:19:29,923 --> 00:19:31,513 -: He's researched, hasn't he, 415 00:19:31,513 --> 00:19:35,893 and refined his techniques developed his techniques, 416 00:19:35,893 --> 00:19:38,263 and I think that he's been open, 417 00:19:38,263 --> 00:19:41,813 but yet we've still seen a level of minimization 418 00:19:41,813 --> 00:19:46,813 in terms of distancing himself from telling the lies. 419 00:19:47,193 --> 00:19:49,833 He prefers to portray himself as somebody 420 00:19:49,833 --> 00:19:52,453 who simply just didn't tell the truth, 421 00:19:52,453 --> 00:19:55,523 but, of course, there was more to it than that. 422 00:19:55,523 --> 00:19:57,443 -: A lie of omission is still a lie, 423 00:19:57,443 --> 00:19:59,123 but most people don't consider them lies, 424 00:19:59,123 --> 00:20:01,500 and he's the same way, just like everybody else. 425 00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:03,653 "Well, I just asked them what it was. 426 00:20:03,653 --> 00:20:06,993 I didn't say it was an ancient this, 427 00:20:06,993 --> 00:20:08,536 that, or the other thing." 428 00:20:08,536 --> 00:20:11,036 (tense music) 429 00:20:12,670 --> 00:20:14,564 -: How is it going for you, Mr. Greenhalgh? 430 00:20:14,564 --> 00:20:16,346 -: I've been here a couple of days, 431 00:20:16,346 --> 00:20:18,616 and it's quite an eye opener, actually, 432 00:20:19,563 --> 00:20:21,993 a scientist looking into my, I suppose, 433 00:20:21,993 --> 00:20:23,793 psyche, would call it, (indistinct). 434 00:20:24,708 --> 00:20:27,093 It's been an interesting few days, 435 00:20:27,093 --> 00:20:28,795 more interesting than I expected. 436 00:20:28,795 --> 00:20:30,573 I thought I was here just for a few interviews, 437 00:20:30,573 --> 00:20:33,320 but there's been a bit more than that. 438 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,820 (waves crash in distance) 439 00:20:38,703 --> 00:20:41,343 -: Tell me about your childhood. Who was in your family? 440 00:20:41,343 --> 00:20:42,176 -: My mum and dad, 441 00:20:42,176 --> 00:20:45,083 and I'm like the fifth of six surviving children. 442 00:20:45,083 --> 00:20:47,283 -: Were other people in your family artistic? 443 00:20:49,513 --> 00:20:50,346 -: Not particularly. 444 00:20:50,346 --> 00:20:54,303 My mum was quite good at baking and needlework 445 00:20:54,303 --> 00:20:55,170 and all that kind of stuff, 446 00:20:55,170 --> 00:20:57,173 but my dad was really good at art, 447 00:20:57,173 --> 00:20:59,244 but he wasn't interested in it. 448 00:20:59,244 --> 00:21:00,077 He had a wonderful drawing hand, 449 00:21:00,077 --> 00:21:03,333 and I think it was his showing me how to draw 450 00:21:03,333 --> 00:21:05,193 and holding my hand and doing these wonderful drawings 451 00:21:05,193 --> 00:21:08,983 with my childish hand that fired my enthusiasm. 452 00:21:08,983 --> 00:21:09,816 A tiny little boy. 453 00:21:09,816 --> 00:21:11,683 My dad picking me up and sitting me on his knee, 454 00:21:11,683 --> 00:21:13,623 and he would get a piece of paper and hold my hand around 455 00:21:13,623 --> 00:21:17,136 and show me how to hold the pencil, so he'd hold it, 456 00:21:17,136 --> 00:21:19,293 and then away we'd go all with his stroke mind 457 00:21:19,293 --> 00:21:20,756 was just like this. 458 00:21:20,756 --> 00:21:24,536 He'd draw birds and fish and all kinds of nature things. 459 00:21:26,472 --> 00:21:28,122 I can remember like this sense. 460 00:21:28,122 --> 00:21:29,643 I was like, "Wow, they just appear in front of me." 461 00:21:29,643 --> 00:21:30,533 Very realistic. 462 00:21:30,533 --> 00:21:32,963 I couldn't draw myself anything like that at that age, 463 00:21:32,963 --> 00:21:35,773 not until I was probably eight or nine years old, 464 00:21:35,773 --> 00:21:38,373 but I can remember being really, 465 00:21:38,373 --> 00:21:40,113 really impressed with the images. 466 00:21:40,113 --> 00:21:42,343 How did they appear from nothing? 467 00:21:42,343 --> 00:21:43,896 -: Okay, and how did it develop? 468 00:21:44,953 --> 00:21:46,393 -: I just like to do my own thing, 469 00:21:46,393 --> 00:21:48,463 so I never did art in class at school. 470 00:21:48,463 --> 00:21:50,043 -: Oh, I'm sure people must've started 471 00:21:50,043 --> 00:21:52,933 to notice that you had this ability. 472 00:21:52,933 --> 00:21:55,523 Were you pushed in any particular direction? 473 00:21:55,523 --> 00:21:57,303 -: No, my mum and dad didn't believe in pushing me. 474 00:21:57,303 --> 00:21:58,413 My mum always hoped that I 475 00:21:58,413 --> 00:22:00,553 would go on to further education, actually. 476 00:22:00,553 --> 00:22:03,113 She wasn't really keen on my art. 477 00:22:03,113 --> 00:22:06,763 She said she'd prefer me in some academic role. 478 00:22:06,763 --> 00:22:09,023 So I think it was a bit of a disappointment to her. 479 00:22:09,023 --> 00:22:11,213 -: What did you want to do? What was your dream? 480 00:22:11,213 --> 00:22:13,474 -: This art obsession came into me. 481 00:22:13,474 --> 00:22:14,457 Well, it was there all the time, 482 00:22:14,457 --> 00:22:16,473 but it got stronger and stronger every year. 483 00:22:16,473 --> 00:22:19,053 And not that I wanted to particularly be an artist. 484 00:22:19,053 --> 00:22:22,923 I just interested in art and the manufacturer of art, 485 00:22:22,923 --> 00:22:25,583 not so much the cerebral side of it, 486 00:22:25,583 --> 00:22:27,690 more like the manufacturing side of it. 487 00:22:27,690 --> 00:22:31,053 I'd look at something and say, "Well, how was that made?" 488 00:22:31,053 --> 00:22:34,033 -: You also have some holidays abroad, 489 00:22:34,033 --> 00:22:36,220 which really influenced you. -: Yes. 490 00:22:36,220 --> 00:22:37,964 -: Can you tell us about that? 491 00:22:37,964 --> 00:22:40,303 -: Well, I went to Rome with my dad. 492 00:22:40,303 --> 00:22:41,683 That was a massive eye opener to me. 493 00:22:41,683 --> 00:22:44,933 I went again later when I was about 15. 494 00:22:44,933 --> 00:22:47,633 So I'd be about 15 when I was independently walking 495 00:22:47,633 --> 00:22:50,867 around Rome and looking at art, just blown away by it. 496 00:22:50,867 --> 00:22:51,763 -: Well, it's a beautiful place. 497 00:22:51,763 --> 00:22:54,433 It's an amazing place. Where did you go to? 498 00:22:54,433 --> 00:22:57,135 -: Oh, where did I not go? I just didn't have time. 499 00:22:57,135 --> 00:22:58,663 There was just so much I wanted to see. 500 00:22:58,663 --> 00:23:01,026 -: And what in particular blew you away? 501 00:23:02,973 --> 00:23:04,553 -: Michelangelo's sculptures. 502 00:23:04,553 --> 00:23:06,233 I believe I read somewhere that he made that 503 00:23:06,233 --> 00:23:08,393 when he was 21 or 22 years old. 504 00:23:08,393 --> 00:23:11,853 I couldn't believe that it was made by one man at that age. 505 00:23:11,853 --> 00:23:14,146 Even at any age, it'd probably take me, 506 00:23:15,253 --> 00:23:17,616 I don't know, maybe two years' work. 507 00:23:19,302 --> 00:23:20,513 And even then, I'd be struggling, 508 00:23:20,513 --> 00:23:21,346 probably with the team to help me 509 00:23:21,346 --> 00:23:23,973 to polish it and finish it. 510 00:23:23,973 --> 00:23:26,503 -: But you're comparing yourself to- 511 00:23:26,503 --> 00:23:30,003 -: I know, but what I've always thought with these people, 512 00:23:30,003 --> 00:23:31,543 they're a man or a woman. 513 00:23:31,543 --> 00:23:33,663 They've got two eyes, two hands, 514 00:23:33,663 --> 00:23:35,833 and what passes for a brain. 515 00:23:35,833 --> 00:23:38,560 I think, "Well," and this has always fascinated me, 516 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,623 "if they could do it, why can't I or anybody else?" 517 00:23:42,623 --> 00:23:46,063 -: Did you feel inspired to make something similar? 518 00:23:46,063 --> 00:23:48,053 -: When I got back, I felt massively deflated 519 00:23:48,053 --> 00:23:50,583 because it's like seeing all this art in books. 520 00:23:50,583 --> 00:23:52,403 I'd seen it as a little boy but didn't really register 521 00:23:52,403 --> 00:23:55,183 what kind of, what would you say? 522 00:23:55,183 --> 00:23:59,483 I didn't reckon it being out there. I just thought, "Wow." 523 00:24:01,196 --> 00:24:03,063 I thought he was a pretty good artist at the time 524 00:24:03,063 --> 00:24:04,733 before I went because I could draw 525 00:24:04,733 --> 00:24:07,643 and paint and sculpt better than any of my friends. 526 00:24:07,643 --> 00:24:10,539 Some of them were a bit artists but not many of them. 527 00:24:10,539 --> 00:24:12,293 (soft tense discordant music) (object shatters) 528 00:24:12,293 --> 00:24:13,850 When I came back, I just felt like, 529 00:24:13,850 --> 00:24:15,983 "I'll never achieve anything like that." 530 00:24:16,983 --> 00:24:19,473 I felt depressed for quite a while and deflated. 531 00:24:19,473 --> 00:24:23,833 -: He is talking about a sense of feeling deflated. 532 00:24:23,833 --> 00:24:25,356 So you've just been to see. 533 00:24:27,553 --> 00:24:30,073 Can you imagine a teenager of our time 534 00:24:30,073 --> 00:24:32,713 that's maybe just been to see a pop star 535 00:24:32,713 --> 00:24:33,783 or something in the flesh. 536 00:24:33,783 --> 00:24:35,103 They've met them in the flesh. 537 00:24:35,103 --> 00:24:37,453 You should be elated, shouldn't you? 538 00:24:37,453 --> 00:24:41,003 And yet he feels sad. 539 00:24:41,003 --> 00:24:44,106 He feels deflated. He feels inadequate. 540 00:24:44,993 --> 00:24:49,073 -: I actually thought of the analogy of athlete, all right? 541 00:24:49,073 --> 00:24:50,373 So you think you're a good basketball player, 542 00:24:50,373 --> 00:24:52,823 and then you get a chance to play a match 543 00:24:52,823 --> 00:24:54,723 with somebody who's a professional, 544 00:24:54,723 --> 00:24:57,063 and you realize you're just not in the league yet. 545 00:24:57,063 --> 00:24:59,033 And even yet, you thought you had all these dreams 546 00:24:59,033 --> 00:25:00,943 and aspirations of being one yourself, 547 00:25:00,943 --> 00:25:04,190 and you realize, "I have so much more to go." 548 00:25:05,393 --> 00:25:07,193 -: Yeah, I think that's a better analogy, 549 00:25:07,193 --> 00:25:09,263 but it just strikes me 550 00:25:09,263 --> 00:25:13,143 how negative his thinking processes are. 551 00:25:13,143 --> 00:25:15,153 I think we're learning a bit about his character, 552 00:25:15,153 --> 00:25:17,254 and this was at a very young age. 553 00:25:17,254 --> 00:25:22,213 (soft contemplative music) (wind blows) 554 00:25:22,213 --> 00:25:24,876 I have to ask about La Bella Princesa. 555 00:25:26,375 --> 00:25:28,313 -: Ah, yeah. -: La Bella Princesa. 556 00:25:28,313 --> 00:25:29,810 If I got that right? -: Principessa. 557 00:25:29,810 --> 00:25:32,197 -: Principessa, right? -: Yeah. 558 00:25:32,197 --> 00:25:33,853 (cameras click) 559 00:25:33,853 --> 00:25:36,396 Kerry: You say that is your work. 560 00:25:36,396 --> 00:25:38,053 (wrapping rustles) 561 00:25:38,053 --> 00:25:39,403 -: I'm convinced that it is. 562 00:25:40,557 --> 00:25:42,533 (cameras click) 563 00:25:42,533 --> 00:25:44,843 -: You're convinced or you know? Surely you must know. 564 00:25:44,843 --> 00:25:46,819 -: Yeah, I do. -: Right. 565 00:25:46,819 --> 00:25:48,803 -: Well, there's been so much controversy over it. 566 00:25:48,803 --> 00:25:51,913 It's made me not doubt it. 567 00:25:51,913 --> 00:25:54,853 I don't doubt it, but I've shied away from it 568 00:25:54,853 --> 00:25:57,433 because it's upset a lot of people. 569 00:25:57,433 --> 00:25:58,853 I'm just trying to be honest. 570 00:25:58,853 --> 00:26:03,853 -: Some experts have said that that is by Leonardo da Vinci. 571 00:26:04,013 --> 00:26:06,693 -: Hmm, and a lot of experts have said it isn't. 572 00:26:06,693 --> 00:26:08,793 -: And a lot of experts have said that it's a fake 573 00:26:08,793 --> 00:26:11,513 but not necessarily a fake by you. 574 00:26:11,513 --> 00:26:14,813 -: Hmm, yeah. They've said that it could be by a German. 575 00:26:14,813 --> 00:26:16,056 -: Well surely, -: and I (indistinct). 576 00:26:16,056 --> 00:26:16,889 -: you created a picture. 577 00:26:16,889 --> 00:26:19,643 You must know if that's yours or not. 578 00:26:19,643 --> 00:26:22,893 -: I went to seed in Milan, see it actually in person 579 00:26:22,893 --> 00:26:24,023 because I wanted to be sure. 580 00:26:24,023 --> 00:26:27,393 But what absolutely convinces me of it is the back board 581 00:26:28,287 --> 00:26:29,323 'cause I made that back board, 582 00:26:29,323 --> 00:26:31,996 and I put those butterfly braces into it. 583 00:26:31,996 --> 00:26:34,446 -: So who is she based on? 584 00:26:36,141 --> 00:26:38,163 -: Well, a girl I worked at The Co-op with. 585 00:26:38,163 --> 00:26:39,813 -: Right, which is a supermarket chain. 586 00:26:39,813 --> 00:26:42,533 -: Yes. Yeah, she worked on the tills. 587 00:26:42,533 --> 00:26:45,233 It's her profile. -: So do believe 588 00:26:45,233 --> 00:26:46,983 -: A Milanese costume -: that she was- 589 00:26:46,983 --> 00:26:49,323 -: of the late 15th century. 590 00:26:49,323 --> 00:26:51,563 -: So I believe she was called Sally. 591 00:26:51,563 --> 00:26:52,483 -: Yeah. -: So Sally 592 00:26:52,483 --> 00:26:54,293 from the Co-op supermarket 593 00:26:54,293 --> 00:26:57,413 is La Bella Principessa. -: Is the model, yeah. 594 00:26:57,413 --> 00:27:02,313 -: Right, and, (laughs) sorry. Do you feel this is- 595 00:27:02,313 --> 00:27:04,163 -: I don't think it would be controversial 596 00:27:04,163 --> 00:27:06,253 if it wasn't worth 100 million pounds. 597 00:27:06,253 --> 00:27:09,693 I think if it was like worth 5,000 pounds, 598 00:27:09,693 --> 00:27:11,643 I don't think anyone would bat an eyelid, 599 00:27:11,643 --> 00:27:13,053 and that's the trouble with art. 600 00:27:13,053 --> 00:27:14,533 The money blinds everybody. 601 00:27:14,533 --> 00:27:19,053 -: It's such a seemingly greedy world where things are going, 602 00:27:19,053 --> 00:27:22,233 something like the Leonardo da Vinci "Salvator Mundi," 603 00:27:22,233 --> 00:27:24,416 a $450 million. 604 00:27:26,013 --> 00:27:27,513 In a world where people are prepared 605 00:27:27,513 --> 00:27:30,073 to spend those kinds of money, 606 00:27:30,073 --> 00:27:33,033 those sorts of amounts on money on art, 607 00:27:33,033 --> 00:27:35,953 I think there's absolutely a place for people 608 00:27:35,953 --> 00:27:38,343 who pop up every now and then and say, "Are you sure? 609 00:27:38,343 --> 00:27:41,713 Buyer beware." The art world is corrupt. 610 00:27:41,713 --> 00:27:45,263 The art world is full of people who are only 611 00:27:45,263 --> 00:27:50,263 in it for the money, who cheat, who lie, sell stuff off 612 00:27:50,943 --> 00:27:53,413 as one thing when it's actually another thing. 613 00:27:53,413 --> 00:27:57,693 It is a world, if you scratch the surface of it and go down, 614 00:27:57,693 --> 00:28:00,756 it's full of corruption and darkness. 615 00:28:01,703 --> 00:28:06,703 -: Do you feel that this piece of artwork has validated you 616 00:28:09,493 --> 00:28:12,303 and actually achieved what it seems like you've been trying 617 00:28:12,303 --> 00:28:13,623 to achieve for a lifetime, 618 00:28:13,623 --> 00:28:16,463 which is being able to match with the great masters? 619 00:28:16,463 --> 00:28:19,629 -: Well, with that pastoral drawing, 620 00:28:19,629 --> 00:28:23,363 I don't think I have matched because the vast majority 621 00:28:23,363 --> 00:28:25,593 of, I think, of Leonardo scholars 622 00:28:26,843 --> 00:28:29,103 don't think it's by Leonardo. 623 00:28:29,103 --> 00:28:31,913 Kerry: So it's not enough to convince one 624 00:28:31,913 --> 00:28:33,823 or two or three are experts. 625 00:28:33,823 --> 00:28:36,396 You have to convince them all. -: Yeah. 626 00:28:38,791 --> 00:28:42,374 (soft contemplative music) 627 00:28:53,363 --> 00:28:56,533 -: For this test, we're going to be looking 628 00:28:56,533 --> 00:29:01,533 at your abilities to judge expressions. 629 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:03,953 -: Okay. 630 00:29:03,953 --> 00:29:06,813 -: And what will happen is a face will appear, 631 00:29:06,813 --> 00:29:08,323 and then in about three seconds, 632 00:29:08,323 --> 00:29:11,003 that same face will make an expression, 633 00:29:11,003 --> 00:29:13,783 but that expression will be on for 1/15 of a second, 634 00:29:13,783 --> 00:29:15,423 and then it's back to neutral. 635 00:29:15,423 --> 00:29:19,833 So your job is what expression was that that flashed at you? 636 00:29:19,833 --> 00:29:22,413 After you do it, then circle the item there 637 00:29:22,413 --> 00:29:24,453 that represents your judgment on this, 638 00:29:24,453 --> 00:29:25,803 and then when you circle it, 639 00:29:25,803 --> 00:29:30,006 go hit number two and continue through all 14 items. 640 00:29:31,953 --> 00:29:33,653 The key is once that face pops up, though, 641 00:29:33,653 --> 00:29:36,413 just remember, don't blink because if you blink, 642 00:29:36,413 --> 00:29:38,043 you might miss it. -: Okay. 643 00:29:46,304 --> 00:29:48,971 (pen scribbles) 644 00:29:51,113 --> 00:29:53,243 -: When somebody feels a blast of emotion, 645 00:29:53,243 --> 00:29:55,253 it's an involuntary reaction. 646 00:29:55,253 --> 00:29:57,053 When somebody goes, "Boo," you jump. 647 00:29:57,053 --> 00:29:59,103 You don't stop and think about it, right? 648 00:30:05,983 --> 00:30:09,753 It goes on your face in a pulse, 649 00:30:09,753 --> 00:30:12,483 and what happens is the outside part of the brain, 650 00:30:12,483 --> 00:30:14,393 the pyramidal motor system, 651 00:30:14,393 --> 00:30:16,260 is used to try to shut that down. 652 00:30:16,260 --> 00:30:18,843 "I don't wanna be seen as nervous. Shut it down." 653 00:30:18,843 --> 00:30:21,333 And the conflict between the two 654 00:30:21,333 --> 00:30:24,933 is what causes these emotions to be very brief 655 00:30:24,933 --> 00:30:27,973 'cause the person is trying to suppress them, 656 00:30:27,973 --> 00:30:30,833 but they will still often leak despite your efforts 657 00:30:30,833 --> 00:30:31,796 to control them. 658 00:30:37,453 --> 00:30:40,533 His ability to detect deception, he scored about 60%, 659 00:30:40,533 --> 00:30:41,933 which is higher than average. 660 00:30:41,933 --> 00:30:45,353 The micro-expression test is actually just about average. 661 00:30:45,353 --> 00:30:47,373 It was about 57%. 662 00:30:47,373 --> 00:30:50,533 His ability to manage his behaviors, 663 00:30:50,533 --> 00:30:53,813 all that other kind of stuff, actually on the low end, 664 00:30:53,813 --> 00:30:56,383 which surprised me a little bit. 665 00:30:56,383 --> 00:30:59,733 Some of it, I think, was driven down by the shyness elements 666 00:30:59,733 --> 00:31:03,223 that he reported in terms of his behavior., and then- 667 00:31:03,223 --> 00:31:04,373 -: What type of behavior, then? 668 00:31:04,373 --> 00:31:07,886 What type of behavior does he have problems with managing? 669 00:31:07,886 --> 00:31:09,533 -: Just with people looking at him, 670 00:31:09,533 --> 00:31:10,623 being center of attention, 671 00:31:10,623 --> 00:31:12,303 things like those sorts of things. 672 00:31:12,303 --> 00:31:14,643 -: So yeah. General social anxiety then. 673 00:31:14,643 --> 00:31:17,963 -: Yeah. Is anything shaking out on the brain work, Moran? 674 00:31:17,963 --> 00:31:21,690 -: He's a unique character in that he's a real artist, 675 00:31:21,690 --> 00:31:26,690 and I think his craft in terms of conning is unique. 676 00:31:27,113 --> 00:31:30,693 He's producing something that people, in their minds, 677 00:31:30,693 --> 00:31:34,693 will think is good, is real, and so and so. 678 00:31:34,693 --> 00:31:37,453 So he really creates the environment 679 00:31:37,453 --> 00:31:40,963 for everyone to con themselves. 680 00:31:40,963 --> 00:31:45,523 (tense discordant music) (food crunches) 681 00:31:45,523 --> 00:31:48,153 -: With Shaun, you just really never know. 682 00:31:48,153 --> 00:31:50,343 He's cunning. He's a cunning guy. 683 00:31:50,343 --> 00:31:52,373 He's a forger. Of course he's cunning. 684 00:31:52,373 --> 00:31:54,703 This is the thing about him most. 685 00:31:54,703 --> 00:31:58,533 You stare into his eyes. You could test his pulse. 686 00:31:58,533 --> 00:32:01,363 You can wire him up with a lie detector. 687 00:32:01,363 --> 00:32:03,653 I swear to you, you'll still never know exactly 688 00:32:03,653 --> 00:32:05,602 if he's telling you the truth or not. 689 00:32:05,602 --> 00:32:08,102 (wind blows) 690 00:32:13,763 --> 00:32:17,476 -: So your mother, Olive, and your father, George. 691 00:32:18,563 --> 00:32:20,393 Did they know where all of this money 692 00:32:20,393 --> 00:32:21,533 had suddenly come from? 693 00:32:21,533 --> 00:32:24,973 -: Well, I had to be careful of what I spent. 694 00:32:24,973 --> 00:32:26,143 When I was at work at the Co-op, 695 00:32:26,143 --> 00:32:29,583 I put long hours in five and a half days a week, 696 00:32:29,583 --> 00:32:32,827 lots of overtime and stuff to camouflage it. 697 00:32:32,827 --> 00:32:35,573 -: Okay, and that bit of money that you had 698 00:32:35,573 --> 00:32:38,153 from the sale of the fake Degas, 699 00:32:38,153 --> 00:32:40,293 you went traveling with a girlfriend, didn't you? 700 00:32:40,293 --> 00:32:42,996 -: I did, yeah. We went to Florence drunk as a skunk. 701 00:32:44,523 --> 00:32:46,116 So that's a great memory, actually. 702 00:32:47,036 --> 00:32:50,063 That's what I got into liking about my fakes. 703 00:32:50,063 --> 00:32:52,913 I could make one, it would only take me a few weeks, 704 00:32:52,913 --> 00:32:55,473 sell it for compared to my friends, 705 00:32:55,473 --> 00:32:59,116 maybe several years salary, and I could go traveling. 706 00:33:00,781 --> 00:33:01,832 I'd seen all these works of art, 707 00:33:01,832 --> 00:33:03,343 but I wanted to see them 'cause I don't think you 708 00:33:03,343 --> 00:33:06,643 can appreciate them until you see them in real life. 709 00:33:06,643 --> 00:33:09,393 That money gave me the opportunity to do that. 710 00:33:09,393 --> 00:33:12,303 Kerry: And you did this with a girl called Janie? 711 00:33:12,303 --> 00:33:14,426 -: Yes. -: Can you tell me about Janie? 712 00:33:16,393 --> 00:33:17,943 -: Well, that's a bit difficult. 713 00:33:20,683 --> 00:33:24,073 I met her in the university library, Ryland Library, 714 00:33:24,073 --> 00:33:25,863 Manchester University (indistinct). 715 00:33:25,863 --> 00:33:27,593 Prettiest thing I'd seen. (laughs) 716 00:33:27,593 --> 00:33:29,943 I was hooked, yeah, definitely. 717 00:33:29,943 --> 00:33:33,633 -: And did that money that you had, did that enable you to, 718 00:33:33,633 --> 00:33:35,783 use an old fashioned term, court her? 719 00:33:37,093 --> 00:33:39,093 -: I've never really been a flash person. 720 00:33:40,513 --> 00:33:41,346 When I've traveled, 721 00:33:41,346 --> 00:33:43,973 I've always stayed like in relatively basic hotels. 722 00:33:43,973 --> 00:33:45,703 I don't really like to stay in anywhere flashy, 723 00:33:45,703 --> 00:33:48,653 but it gave me the opportunity to ask her 724 00:33:48,653 --> 00:33:51,223 to come away on holiday with me in the summer break, 725 00:33:51,223 --> 00:33:52,303 which we did. 726 00:33:52,303 --> 00:33:53,783 -: And you went to some beautiful places 727 00:33:53,783 --> 00:33:56,223 and had some good memories, as you say. 728 00:33:56,223 --> 00:33:58,936 -: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. -: What happened to Janie? 729 00:34:00,703 --> 00:34:04,983 -: Well, we went only a few times, and she like graduated, 730 00:34:04,983 --> 00:34:07,423 and she was taken a post-degree course. 731 00:34:07,423 --> 00:34:10,713 And well, first of all, she started with headaches, 732 00:34:10,713 --> 00:34:12,943 but she was working very hard and into the night, 733 00:34:12,943 --> 00:34:14,173 and she had a couple of jobs, 734 00:34:14,173 --> 00:34:16,023 bar jobs and stuff to make ends meet. 735 00:34:17,083 --> 00:34:19,543 So anyway, she went to see the doctor. 736 00:34:19,543 --> 00:34:22,373 He put it down to, what should we say? 737 00:34:22,373 --> 00:34:24,892 Headaches over work and what have you. 738 00:34:24,892 --> 00:34:27,143 She started to get these headaches more and more, 739 00:34:27,143 --> 00:34:29,253 and one day, she had a seizure. 740 00:34:29,253 --> 00:34:31,433 One of my brothers has epileptic seizures, 741 00:34:31,433 --> 00:34:33,532 so I knew exactly what it was, 742 00:34:33,532 --> 00:34:35,882 and that's what I, well, what I thought it was. 743 00:34:36,773 --> 00:34:38,033 So anyway, long story short, 744 00:34:38,033 --> 00:34:40,482 she was diagnosed with a brain tumor, 745 00:34:40,482 --> 00:34:43,240 I think, excuse me, February '81, 746 00:34:43,240 --> 00:34:45,713 and she was dead by September. 747 00:34:45,713 --> 00:34:47,673 -: Wow. -: Quite quickly. 748 00:34:47,673 --> 00:34:50,863 From no sign of it at all to, yeah. 749 00:34:50,863 --> 00:34:52,803 -: And how old was she? 750 00:34:52,803 --> 00:34:56,333 -: She was two years older than me. She was 23 at the time. 751 00:34:56,333 --> 00:34:57,933 Kerry: Right. That's terribly tragic. 752 00:34:57,933 --> 00:34:59,123 -: Yeah. -: That's very sad. 753 00:34:59,123 --> 00:35:00,630 How did that affect you? 754 00:35:00,630 --> 00:35:03,523 -: Ah, it blew me for a few years, as you can understand. 755 00:35:03,523 --> 00:35:05,553 That's what such things do, don't they? 756 00:35:05,553 --> 00:35:07,767 -: Of course, of course. -: Yeah. 757 00:35:07,767 --> 00:35:09,903 -: So you were grieving. -: Yeah. 758 00:35:09,903 --> 00:35:11,173 -: Yeah. 759 00:35:11,173 --> 00:35:13,993 Had you ever during your time with Janie thought 760 00:35:13,993 --> 00:35:15,463 to yourself, "Hang on a minute. 761 00:35:15,463 --> 00:35:18,093 I'm making money here through illegal means"? 762 00:35:18,093 --> 00:35:21,133 -: Yes. -: Tell me about that. 763 00:35:27,917 --> 00:35:30,043 -: I don't really know what to say about it. 764 00:35:30,043 --> 00:35:33,969 I did confess to her, and she said that I shouldn't be. 765 00:35:33,969 --> 00:35:35,693 She was dead set against it, 766 00:35:36,850 --> 00:35:39,423 and I did pack it in for awhile. 767 00:35:39,423 --> 00:35:41,373 While I was in a relationship with her, 768 00:35:41,373 --> 00:35:42,323 I didn't do any fakes. 769 00:35:42,323 --> 00:35:45,016 I did art and tried to sell it. 770 00:35:45,016 --> 00:35:48,373 I put some stuff into The Octagon Theatre in my own name, 771 00:35:48,373 --> 00:35:50,923 sold for paltry amounts. 772 00:35:50,923 --> 00:35:52,693 So I did some of the those, 773 00:35:52,693 --> 00:35:54,173 and that didn't bring really big prices. 774 00:35:54,173 --> 00:35:59,043 Well, after she died, I felt, what would I feel? 775 00:35:59,043 --> 00:36:01,763 I felt bitter as if I'd been robbed, 776 00:36:01,763 --> 00:36:04,853 and so I went back into art like full steam ahead 777 00:36:04,853 --> 00:36:09,523 and fakery, just fakery then, and I really got into it then. 778 00:36:09,523 --> 00:36:11,193 I met this Bolton antiques dealer. 779 00:36:11,193 --> 00:36:13,443 He introduced me to a guy in Manchester 780 00:36:13,443 --> 00:36:15,543 and then another guy in London called Tom. 781 00:36:16,723 --> 00:36:19,533 He had a big gallery in the West End, 782 00:36:19,533 --> 00:36:24,533 and he was absolutely corrupt, importing stolen antiquities, 783 00:36:25,023 --> 00:36:28,633 fake silver, having hallmarks made and rubbed out all, 784 00:36:28,633 --> 00:36:30,643 every scam in the book he was into. 785 00:36:30,643 --> 00:36:32,023 And I went along with it 'cause I didn't 786 00:36:32,023 --> 00:36:33,206 wanna do anything else. 787 00:36:36,018 --> 00:36:39,523 (waves crash in distance) 788 00:36:39,523 --> 00:36:40,903 -: We're going to the next test. 789 00:36:40,903 --> 00:36:41,883 -: Okay. 790 00:36:41,883 --> 00:36:45,956 -: So I'm gonna now show you on this screen a set of images, 791 00:36:46,843 --> 00:36:47,676 and I'm gonna show you the pictures. 792 00:36:47,676 --> 00:36:50,430 I'm gonna ask you to do is just give me a number 793 00:36:50,430 --> 00:36:52,883 that goes from one to 10, 794 00:36:52,883 --> 00:36:56,033 where one is extremely negative and 10 795 00:36:56,033 --> 00:36:59,073 would be the most positive experience you can imagine. 796 00:36:59,073 --> 00:37:00,670 Okay, we're starting. 797 00:37:00,670 --> 00:37:02,120 Here's the first one. -: One. 798 00:37:03,286 --> 00:37:05,533 (contemplative music) 799 00:37:05,533 --> 00:37:06,366 Three. 800 00:37:09,103 --> 00:37:09,936 Seven. 801 00:37:12,447 --> 00:37:13,280 Eight. 802 00:37:15,929 --> 00:37:17,516 10. 803 00:37:17,516 --> 00:37:18,349 Five. 804 00:37:20,754 --> 00:37:21,587 One. 805 00:37:25,179 --> 00:37:27,933 Eight. (muffled speaking) 806 00:37:27,933 --> 00:37:31,554 -: This one is an injured cat. You gave it an eight. 807 00:37:31,554 --> 00:37:32,387 -: Yeah. 808 00:37:32,387 --> 00:37:33,994 -: This one normally gets a low score. 809 00:37:33,994 --> 00:37:36,303 Do you have a sense why you gave it a high score? 810 00:37:36,303 --> 00:37:39,863 -: Well, I felt sorry for it in its terrible state. 811 00:37:39,863 --> 00:37:42,033 -: But eight is a high score, is a positive one. 812 00:37:42,033 --> 00:37:43,403 -: Oh yeah, I- 813 00:37:43,403 --> 00:37:45,123 -: Did you mean to give it a low score? 814 00:37:45,123 --> 00:37:47,688 -: I meant to give it a high score, like for sympathy wise, 815 00:37:47,688 --> 00:37:49,533 -: I see. Okay. -: I felt sorry for it. 816 00:37:49,533 --> 00:37:51,103 -: Okay. This helps me. 817 00:37:51,103 --> 00:37:53,824 -: On terrible looks, I should've given it a one, 818 00:37:53,824 --> 00:37:57,863 but my emotions came into it, and I felt sorry for it. 819 00:37:57,863 --> 00:37:59,457 -: So when you gave it an eight, 820 00:37:59,457 --> 00:38:01,932 it's because it's like your score your empathy means? 821 00:38:01,932 --> 00:38:02,765 -: Yeah. 822 00:38:02,765 --> 00:38:04,643 -: I made a note while you were talking then 823 00:38:04,643 --> 00:38:08,683 because it interested me that you said that you felt bitter. 824 00:38:08,683 --> 00:38:13,683 You felt robbed. Were you talking about robbed of Janie? 825 00:38:14,823 --> 00:38:16,143 -: Yeah. 826 00:38:16,143 --> 00:38:19,493 -: Were you talking about robbed because 827 00:38:19,493 --> 00:38:21,677 of the way the art dealers had treated you? 828 00:38:21,677 --> 00:38:25,276 -: No, no. I think with art deals, it's dog eat dog. 829 00:38:26,393 --> 00:38:28,673 I just took it on the chin. 830 00:38:28,673 --> 00:38:30,400 A lot of times, I never got big prices, 831 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:31,723 but when I said I felt robbed, 832 00:38:31,723 --> 00:38:36,363 I felt robbed of what my life should've been. 833 00:38:36,363 --> 00:38:37,196 -: How would -: A lot of people- 834 00:38:37,196 --> 00:38:39,253 -: you see being different? 835 00:38:39,253 --> 00:38:40,903 -: Yeah, I think it would've been, yeah. 836 00:38:40,903 --> 00:38:43,053 -: In what way? -: Well, when I was with Janie, 837 00:38:43,053 --> 00:38:47,143 from when I met her, I didn't have the urge to do art. 838 00:38:47,143 --> 00:38:49,563 I wanted to do something proper, 839 00:38:49,563 --> 00:38:52,168 (slow somber cello music) 840 00:38:52,168 --> 00:38:54,046 and not criminal, so. 841 00:38:54,903 --> 00:38:55,736 -: She made you want 842 00:38:55,736 --> 00:38:56,903 to be better? -: Yeah. 843 00:38:56,903 --> 00:38:59,103 I'm absolutely certain that my life would've gone 844 00:38:59,103 --> 00:39:01,353 in a completely different direction. 845 00:39:01,353 --> 00:39:02,673 I'm certain of that. 846 00:39:02,673 --> 00:39:05,403 Not just thinking. I'm absolute certain, yeah. 847 00:39:05,403 --> 00:39:08,443 -: So do you think that that feeling of bitterness then 848 00:39:08,443 --> 00:39:13,443 maybe accelerated your rise in the art forgery world? 849 00:39:13,853 --> 00:39:15,733 -: Yeah, probably, looking back on it. 850 00:39:15,733 --> 00:39:17,560 I didn't see it at that time as that, 851 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,373 but with perspective now of many years, yeah, probably. 852 00:39:21,373 --> 00:39:26,290 (soft music) (drink pours) 853 00:39:32,008 --> 00:39:34,840 -: Hi, Shaun. Mind if I have a seat? 854 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,340 -: No, take a seat. 855 00:39:38,707 --> 00:39:40,573 (tense cello music) 856 00:39:40,573 --> 00:39:43,353 -: So it's been nice seeing you around here 857 00:39:43,353 --> 00:39:44,654 and having a chance to- -: Yeah, 858 00:39:44,654 --> 00:39:45,583 it's been great these last few days, hasn't it? 859 00:39:45,583 --> 00:39:46,932 -: Yeah, get to know you 860 00:39:46,932 --> 00:39:47,765 a little bit, yeah. -: Interesting. 861 00:39:47,765 --> 00:39:49,943 -: And the question I wanted to ask 862 00:39:49,943 --> 00:39:52,083 and so I could hear from you directly 863 00:39:52,083 --> 00:39:55,253 was just curious, like how you did it. 864 00:39:55,253 --> 00:39:57,753 -: Sometimes, I don't know I did it myself, really. 865 00:39:59,693 --> 00:40:04,693 One of the things led to it was I'd look in books 866 00:40:04,873 --> 00:40:07,368 and magazines when I was like into my 20s 867 00:40:07,368 --> 00:40:08,473 when I was looking to do proper fakes rather 868 00:40:08,473 --> 00:40:11,303 than just rough copies and small prices, 869 00:40:11,303 --> 00:40:14,186 and I would see like location unknown of a work of art. 870 00:40:15,063 --> 00:40:17,223 Probably disappeared World War II 871 00:40:17,223 --> 00:40:18,746 or even earlier than that, and that would fire me up. 872 00:40:20,388 --> 00:40:22,183 So I thought I'd start to research it, 873 00:40:22,183 --> 00:40:24,543 go to the libraries in the old days before the internet. 874 00:40:24,543 --> 00:40:26,903 I'd have to go to the libraries and gradually work on it 875 00:40:26,903 --> 00:40:28,513 to build a provenance around it 876 00:40:28,513 --> 00:40:30,313 and find proof of its existence. 877 00:40:30,313 --> 00:40:31,413 -: And how did you learn that? 878 00:40:31,413 --> 00:40:34,083 How did you learn that that was like the essential part? 879 00:40:34,083 --> 00:40:36,503 -: Ah, well, I think it was the people I got on with. 880 00:40:36,503 --> 00:40:40,663 Like from about 18, I met provincial art dealers 881 00:40:40,663 --> 00:40:43,203 and then bigger art dealers in Manchester and in London, 882 00:40:43,203 --> 00:40:45,173 and I made stuff for those people, 883 00:40:45,173 --> 00:40:47,323 and that's what they were actually doing. 884 00:40:47,323 --> 00:40:49,323 -: I was fascinated by the fact that you 885 00:40:49,323 --> 00:40:53,963 would leave little clues, like the old "Batman" TV series. 886 00:40:53,963 --> 00:40:56,345 The master criminals left little clues, 887 00:40:56,345 --> 00:40:58,846 but what motivated you to do that? 888 00:40:59,875 --> 00:41:03,866 -: Well, I think I became like, what's the word? 889 00:41:05,203 --> 00:41:07,453 Dissatisfied with the situation of what I was in. 890 00:41:07,453 --> 00:41:09,713 I thought these people are being paid 891 00:41:09,713 --> 00:41:12,563 as experts and lauding themselves as experts, 892 00:41:12,563 --> 00:41:14,773 and so I thought I'd start putting little bits in 893 00:41:14,773 --> 00:41:17,353 to see if they would notice some things 894 00:41:17,353 --> 00:41:18,186 that were quite wrong. 895 00:41:18,186 --> 00:41:20,973 It was subtler in the beginning, and by the end, 896 00:41:20,973 --> 00:41:23,473 it ended up with glaring mistakes, 897 00:41:23,473 --> 00:41:25,283 and then when they still didn't pick it up, 898 00:41:25,283 --> 00:41:28,131 but I think the provenance has blinded them. 899 00:41:28,131 --> 00:41:29,331 -: And just curious, too. 900 00:41:30,193 --> 00:41:32,303 Reading up a little bit about skills 901 00:41:32,303 --> 00:41:35,373 and vision in an artist. 902 00:41:35,373 --> 00:41:38,866 -: Yeah, well, I've lacked in original vision. 903 00:41:39,819 --> 00:41:40,652 That's what I think that's 904 00:41:40,652 --> 00:41:42,120 why I never cracked it as an artist. 905 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,113 -: I think the trouble with most artists 906 00:41:43,113 --> 00:41:46,873 is that they have an over-exaggerated sense 907 00:41:46,873 --> 00:41:48,133 of their own creativity. 908 00:41:48,133 --> 00:41:49,573 It's the opposite of Shaun. 909 00:41:49,573 --> 00:41:51,080 There are far too many artists in the world 910 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,553 who think they're brilliant and who think they're original 911 00:41:53,553 --> 00:41:55,503 and who think that everything they make is really great 912 00:41:55,503 --> 00:41:56,870 and that they're forgotten geniuses, and, 913 00:41:56,870 --> 00:41:58,493 "Why the hell isn't my stuff on the show 914 00:41:58,493 --> 00:42:02,273 at the Wright Museum or the Tate or National Gallery?" 915 00:42:02,273 --> 00:42:04,296 There's loads of those people out there. 916 00:42:05,383 --> 00:42:07,453 The perverse thing about Shaun 917 00:42:07,453 --> 00:42:10,503 is that he actually has got it here in the fingertips. 918 00:42:10,503 --> 00:42:13,773 He can make things that no one else can make, 919 00:42:13,773 --> 00:42:16,573 and what they can't do, he can. 920 00:42:16,573 --> 00:42:21,273 -: What would you prefer, if you did the perfect Leonardo 921 00:42:22,443 --> 00:42:24,896 and everyone thought it was Leonardo, 922 00:42:25,793 --> 00:42:30,793 or a great Leonardo, but they said, "It was Shaun's"? 923 00:42:31,803 --> 00:42:33,253 Which would make you happier? 924 00:42:35,393 --> 00:42:39,203 -: I think the great Leonardo that would've put down to me 925 00:42:39,203 --> 00:42:42,033 to prove that I could equal him, but I can't. 926 00:42:42,033 --> 00:42:43,418 It's just a fantasy. 927 00:42:43,418 --> 00:42:47,233 (wind blows) (contemplative music) 928 00:42:47,233 --> 00:42:49,753 -: Tell me about the Amarna Princess. 929 00:42:49,753 --> 00:42:51,243 -: My dad had seen something in the paper 930 00:42:51,243 --> 00:42:52,983 about some Egyptian antiquity bringing 931 00:42:52,983 --> 00:42:55,533 in a large amount of money, so it caught my interest. 932 00:42:55,533 --> 00:42:58,446 And I looked at these statuettes. I thought, "I wonder if I 933 00:42:58,446 --> 00:43:02,673 could make an alabaster Amarna Princess," 934 00:43:02,673 --> 00:43:04,853 because the bodily features are very exaggerated 935 00:43:04,853 --> 00:43:07,943 and very abstract, very beautiful to my eye. 936 00:43:07,943 --> 00:43:11,480 Anyway, I carved in the winter of 1990, 937 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:16,480 before the millennium, a few weeks before, aged it. 938 00:43:16,743 --> 00:43:19,533 I put it in a cupboard, and it was in the airing cupboard 939 00:43:19,533 --> 00:43:24,533 in late 2000, and that's where it stayed till, 940 00:43:25,013 --> 00:43:29,183 I think, mid 2002, about 18 months. 941 00:43:29,183 --> 00:43:30,173 I went to my dad's once. 942 00:43:30,173 --> 00:43:31,993 He said, "Shaun," he says, "that alabaster." 943 00:43:31,993 --> 00:43:33,493 He said, "What I think we should do 944 00:43:33,493 --> 00:43:35,433 is we should contact the Bolton Museum," 945 00:43:35,433 --> 00:43:37,980 'cause we all knew that they had a great collection, 946 00:43:37,980 --> 00:43:38,925 the Egyptologist- -: They've got a great 947 00:43:38,925 --> 00:43:39,875 Egyptology section. 948 00:43:39,875 --> 00:43:41,655 Yeah, I've been there. -: The great Egyptology. 949 00:43:41,655 --> 00:43:45,013 And the lady who came to see it at my mum and dad's, 950 00:43:45,013 --> 00:43:50,013 she was a very, very knowledgeable lady, Egyptologist. 951 00:43:50,173 --> 00:43:54,543 And as soon as you came in, she said, "That's Amarna." 952 00:43:54,543 --> 00:43:55,753 Anyway, one thing led to another. 953 00:43:55,753 --> 00:43:57,288 She said, "Can I take it away 954 00:43:57,288 --> 00:43:59,043 to have a further examination?" 955 00:43:59,043 --> 00:44:00,063 She came back three months later 956 00:44:00,063 --> 00:44:02,583 and said, "Can we buy it? 957 00:44:02,583 --> 00:44:05,561 We'd like to make an offer of a quarter million," 958 00:44:05,561 --> 00:44:07,353 and a few seconds later, "No, let's say half a million. 959 00:44:07,353 --> 00:44:08,763 I think we could raise that." 960 00:44:08,763 --> 00:44:11,933 Half a million is a great incentive to anybody. 961 00:44:11,933 --> 00:44:14,093 -: How much was it sold for in the end? 962 00:44:14,093 --> 00:44:16,068 -: I think half a million. 963 00:44:16,068 --> 00:44:20,653 I think we paid our taxes on it. I think we've got 440,000. 964 00:44:20,653 --> 00:44:24,803 -: Which is a huge life-changing sum of money. 965 00:44:24,803 --> 00:44:26,243 -: Didn't change my life. 966 00:44:26,243 --> 00:44:28,371 -: And was there celebration in the house? 967 00:44:28,371 --> 00:44:31,463 -: No, none at all. None whatsoever. 968 00:44:31,463 --> 00:44:34,183 -: When the Greenhalgh family were finally arrested 969 00:44:34,183 --> 00:44:36,596 by my successors at Scotland yard, 970 00:44:38,333 --> 00:44:43,333 I was not surprised that this was a family enterprise, 971 00:44:43,723 --> 00:44:45,773 and clearly, it was a family enterprise. 972 00:44:45,773 --> 00:44:47,956 I was somewhat surprised, however, 973 00:44:49,483 --> 00:44:53,443 at the lack of splashing the cash. 974 00:44:53,443 --> 00:44:54,773 They'd made a lot of money out of this. 975 00:44:54,773 --> 00:44:57,913 Now, generally, that is the purpose 976 00:44:57,913 --> 00:45:00,496 of creating fakes and forgeries. 977 00:45:01,833 --> 00:45:06,833 It's personal gain, and when generally criminals succeed 978 00:45:07,473 --> 00:45:10,113 and they're in the cash, they splash it. 979 00:45:10,113 --> 00:45:11,253 They'll spend it. 980 00:45:11,253 --> 00:45:15,036 That's the sort of thing that criminals are expected to do. 981 00:45:16,613 --> 00:45:18,063 As it was explained to me, 982 00:45:18,063 --> 00:45:20,613 Shaun had bought himself a new pair of socks. 983 00:45:20,613 --> 00:45:22,133 -: What did you do with the money? 984 00:45:22,133 --> 00:45:24,183 -: I left it in the bank and it was there two 985 00:45:24,183 --> 00:45:26,603 and a half years later when the police came knocking. 986 00:45:26,603 --> 00:45:29,553 -: So what- -: I hadn't spent any of it. 987 00:45:29,553 --> 00:45:31,703 -: What was the point of this? 988 00:45:31,703 --> 00:45:34,173 -: I really don't know, some kind of madness. 989 00:45:34,173 --> 00:45:35,782 I can't explain it to myself. 990 00:45:35,782 --> 00:45:39,032 (tense clapping music) 991 00:45:42,443 --> 00:45:43,853 Got up one morning and there's knock 992 00:45:43,853 --> 00:45:46,353 on the door from Scotland Yard. 993 00:45:46,353 --> 00:45:48,633 They burst in. My mum and dad were still in bed. 994 00:45:48,633 --> 00:45:50,633 They were very, very hostile. 995 00:45:50,633 --> 00:45:52,863 Kerry: And they went through your home 996 00:45:52,863 --> 00:45:55,883 and your parents' home with a fine tooth comb, didn't they? 997 00:45:55,883 --> 00:45:57,103 -: They did, yeah. 998 00:45:57,103 --> 00:45:59,389 And I'm not trying to have a go at them, 999 00:45:59,389 --> 00:46:01,503 but I was just, by the end of the day, 1000 00:46:01,503 --> 00:46:03,513 I was astonished at the lack of knowledge. 1001 00:46:03,513 --> 00:46:04,563 They were policemen, 1002 00:46:04,563 --> 00:46:07,183 but they were the art and antique squad, 1003 00:46:07,183 --> 00:46:09,723 which I've always held in some esteem, 1004 00:46:09,723 --> 00:46:10,973 and I was genuine. 1005 00:46:10,973 --> 00:46:12,423 I'm not being nasty. 1006 00:46:12,423 --> 00:46:17,423 I was genuinely surprised at the lack of knowledge 1007 00:46:17,723 --> 00:46:19,633 of them when they went to the garden shed. 1008 00:46:19,633 --> 00:46:22,643 -: And I understand that there was a chicken. 1009 00:46:22,643 --> 00:46:23,923 -: I put a chicken in the oven. 1010 00:46:23,923 --> 00:46:26,596 This chicken, they got the chicken out of the oven raw. 1011 00:46:27,813 --> 00:46:29,449 I don't know what they expected to find, 1012 00:46:29,449 --> 00:46:30,663 and they unwrapped this chicken through the breast bone. 1013 00:46:30,663 --> 00:46:32,615 They were looking into it. 1014 00:46:32,615 --> 00:46:33,708 Kerry: What were they hoping to find? 1015 00:46:33,708 --> 00:46:35,251 -: I don't know. I was like- 1016 00:46:35,251 --> 00:46:38,403 -: Maybe hoping to find day a fake Degas in there somewhere. 1017 00:46:38,403 --> 00:46:40,843 -: Yeah, maybe, a Faberge egg or something. 1018 00:46:40,843 --> 00:46:44,643 -: And this guy, this wonderfully interesting man 1019 00:46:44,643 --> 00:46:49,643 who managed to prove that the British Museum 1020 00:46:51,293 --> 00:46:53,576 doesn't really know everything it's talking about, 1021 00:46:53,576 --> 00:46:55,583 that the Chicago Art Institute can be fooled, 1022 00:46:55,583 --> 00:46:59,843 who took experts on and proved that they weren't as good 1023 00:46:59,843 --> 00:47:02,353 at being experts as they thought they were, 1024 00:47:02,353 --> 00:47:04,213 this man gets four and a half years. 1025 00:47:04,213 --> 00:47:05,843 There's something not right about that 1026 00:47:05,843 --> 00:47:08,563 in terms of just the balance of justice, 1027 00:47:08,563 --> 00:47:12,713 and in the end, I think it was grossly unfair, 1028 00:47:12,713 --> 00:47:15,433 and I think he was absolutely made a scapegoat 1029 00:47:15,433 --> 00:47:20,433 for show trial to prove that people shouldn't do this. 1030 00:47:21,055 --> 00:47:24,222 (soft dramatic music) 1031 00:47:25,353 --> 00:47:28,203 -: He has really approached this whole process, hasn't he, 1032 00:47:28,203 --> 00:47:30,263 in the most honest and forthright way 1033 00:47:30,263 --> 00:47:31,643 that I think we've seen. 1034 00:47:31,643 --> 00:47:33,520 -: Yeah, and the transparency, as you say, 1035 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,623 and the forthrightness, 1036 00:47:35,623 --> 00:47:38,343 as he talks about any emotional thing, 1037 00:47:38,343 --> 00:47:40,855 boom, there it is on his face. 1038 00:47:40,855 --> 00:47:42,683 -: I would say on emotions, I had some strange experience, 1039 00:47:42,683 --> 00:47:46,663 which I think was just a flaw of the interaction between us, 1040 00:47:46,663 --> 00:47:49,053 which I ran the study where I showed him pictures 1041 00:47:49,053 --> 00:47:51,603 and had him rank them that a picture 1042 00:47:51,603 --> 00:47:54,473 that I would clearly put on the very low end 1043 00:47:54,473 --> 00:47:57,433 as a negative picture, he gave it eight. 1044 00:47:57,433 --> 00:47:59,393 -: Is that because he's looking at that picture 1045 00:47:59,393 --> 00:48:03,326 with an artistic eye? -: I asked. 1046 00:48:04,423 --> 00:48:06,543 Normally, I would remain very controlled 1047 00:48:07,727 --> 00:48:08,603 and I would say, "Thank you," 1048 00:48:08,603 --> 00:48:09,982 and then at some point, I said, 1049 00:48:09,982 --> 00:48:13,723 "I've gotta ask because it's so off the charts behaviorally 1050 00:48:13,723 --> 00:48:15,013 that I wanna know what's going on." 1051 00:48:15,013 --> 00:48:17,703 And his answer was a clear answer 1052 00:48:17,703 --> 00:48:19,253 that made me see things differently, 1053 00:48:19,253 --> 00:48:20,713 even though it doesn't help my study. 1054 00:48:20,713 --> 00:48:24,423 He says, "I was actually answering something along the lines 1055 00:48:24,423 --> 00:48:27,163 of what it makes me feel, and it makes me feel empathy." 1056 00:48:27,163 --> 00:48:30,093 He was alarmed 1057 00:48:30,093 --> 00:48:34,743 I think in all the tests I saw that he's concerned. 1058 00:48:34,743 --> 00:48:38,283 He's concerned about what's gonna come up, 1059 00:48:38,283 --> 00:48:39,623 what we're gonna figure out, 1060 00:48:39,623 --> 00:48:41,943 so he was nervous about the test. 1061 00:48:41,943 --> 00:48:43,383 (contemplative music) (footsteps shuffle) 1062 00:48:43,383 --> 00:48:44,703 -: Hello. -: Hi, Shaun. 1063 00:48:44,703 --> 00:48:46,404 -: Pleased to see you again. 1064 00:48:46,404 --> 00:48:47,653 -: Good to see you. -: Yeah. 1065 00:48:47,653 --> 00:48:49,583 -: Have a seat. Have a perch. 1066 00:48:49,583 --> 00:48:51,093 -: What were you afraid that we were going 1067 00:48:51,093 --> 00:48:53,260 to say or find or- -: No, it wasn't that, Mark. 1068 00:48:53,260 --> 00:48:54,873 You've all come across quite pleasant, 1069 00:48:54,873 --> 00:48:57,633 but I think it's like, how can I say? 1070 00:48:57,633 --> 00:49:02,633 It's like probing into my mind I've never had done before. 1071 00:49:02,863 --> 00:49:05,083 -: I think that's what got me really excited 1072 00:49:05,083 --> 00:49:07,763 about your particular story is that 1073 00:49:07,763 --> 00:49:10,253 in order to perform a forgery, 1074 00:49:10,253 --> 00:49:12,623 you basically have to get into someone else's mind. 1075 00:49:12,623 --> 00:49:15,683 -: But I think that's might have, what you've talked about 1076 00:49:15,683 --> 00:49:18,653 might've stifled my originality maybe, 1077 00:49:18,653 --> 00:49:19,890 trying to think about these people, 1078 00:49:19,890 --> 00:49:21,775 how they would do it and whatever. 1079 00:49:21,775 --> 00:49:23,343 So it stifled my originality, 1080 00:49:23,343 --> 00:49:25,093 so that's why I don't really have any. 1081 00:49:25,093 --> 00:49:27,063 -: So you were talking about all these emotions 1082 00:49:27,063 --> 00:49:29,433 that you were wrangling with internally, 1083 00:49:29,433 --> 00:49:31,223 but you were showing them externally as well. 1084 00:49:31,223 --> 00:49:32,603 As far as the deception, 1085 00:49:32,603 --> 00:49:35,263 which is a more complicated social judgment, 1086 00:49:35,263 --> 00:49:38,923 you are above average, not like extraordinary, 1087 00:49:38,923 --> 00:49:41,713 but better than the average person. 1088 00:49:41,713 --> 00:49:45,693 -: For me, what was particularly important 1089 00:49:45,693 --> 00:49:50,693 was the lack of belief you have in your own abilities. 1090 00:49:51,253 --> 00:49:52,514 -: Yeah. 1091 00:49:52,514 --> 00:49:56,073 (soft contemplative music) 1092 00:49:56,073 --> 00:49:59,953 But I think there's nothing more self defeating 1093 00:49:59,953 --> 00:50:04,153 than somebody with your abilities making forgeries 1094 00:50:05,003 --> 00:50:10,003 because you know yourself, as we said in the interview, 1095 00:50:10,393 --> 00:50:14,633 if you're forging somebody else's work, 1096 00:50:14,633 --> 00:50:18,331 if you are trying to channel somebody else's ideas- 1097 00:50:18,331 --> 00:50:19,943 -: Like what I said, yeah. -: Yeah. 1098 00:50:19,943 --> 00:50:24,190 Then you can never really be proud of that. 1099 00:50:24,190 --> 00:50:26,253 -: No, it stifles originality, I think. 1100 00:50:26,253 --> 00:50:30,083 -: Yeah. You can never really feel an ownership of that. 1101 00:50:30,083 --> 00:50:32,466 -: Sadly, this is goodbye. -: Okay. 1102 00:50:34,063 --> 00:50:36,730 -: Insightful. -: We really enjoyed the time. 1103 00:50:36,730 --> 00:50:39,980 (soft dramatic music) 1104 00:50:41,643 --> 00:50:44,733 -: With myself, I was rather intimidating, 1105 00:50:44,733 --> 00:50:46,053 maybe, in a nice way. 1106 00:50:46,053 --> 00:50:48,725 -: Okay, Mark. It's been great. -: It's been a pleasure. 1107 00:50:48,725 --> 00:50:49,558 -: Yeah. Thank you, Kerry. -: Thank you 1108 00:50:49,558 --> 00:50:50,391 for sharing your story. 1109 00:50:50,391 --> 00:50:51,680 -: Right, thank you very much. -: Thank you. 1110 00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:52,513 -: It's been insightful. -: Take care. 1111 00:50:52,513 --> 00:50:54,253 Safe journey. -: Okay, bye bye. 1112 00:50:54,253 --> 00:50:55,453 -: Bye bye. -: Thank you. 1113 00:51:00,883 --> 00:51:03,633 (dramatic music) 1114 00:51:28,232 --> 00:51:31,102 (bright ethereal music)