1 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,360 As you go into the Temple of the Moon, 2 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,680 you're confronted at the entrance by a serpent. 3 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:25,320 Carved into the rock wall, 4 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:30,120 its glistening body seeming almost alive to your touch. 5 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:33,080 That's no easy task 6 00:00:33,160 --> 00:00:36,600 because that means that the rock was cut away, 7 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,640 leaving only this high-relief serpent on the side. 8 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,080 As you go deeper into the tunnel, more enigmatic shapes appear, 9 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:50,600 all sculpted from the living rock. 10 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,080 It has a unique atmosphere. 11 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:01,120 The motes of dust catching in the light as it shines down 12 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,200 from the hole in the ceiling 13 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,880 onto a perfectly-leveled structure, clearly the work of human beings. 14 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,600 The stone plinth, like the serpent, is shaped from the rock itself, 15 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,000 lit from that crevasse above, 16 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,720 giving access both to sunlight and to moonlight. 17 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:29,200 Known locally as the Temple of the Moon, and also perhaps more authentically 18 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,760 as Amaru Markawasi, the House of the Serpent, 19 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,840 this eerie, rock-cut shelter certainly has a powerful presence. 20 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,360 It's believed the Inca used this space for fertility rituals, 21 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,720 where the hopeful would leave offerings to the goddess of the moon, 22 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,440 Mama Quilla, daughter of Viracocha. 23 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,080 The silence of the place, the coldness, the stillness within it, 24 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,160 uh, all of this focused the mind in a way that seems to me 25 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,960 to have been deliberately designed, not accidentally achieved. 26 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,440 Whoever carved out this sacred chamber, it seems it wasn't the same people 27 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,760 who built the more ostentatious gold-plated temples 28 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:20,600 that the Inca were famous for. 29 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,120 It's as if the Incas who venerated it built the outer walls to mark off 30 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,320 and thus respect something they found, not something they created. 31 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,320 Are we looking at the work of someone else, 32 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:41,840 an older culture that understood how to mold stone in fantastical ways? 33 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,840 {\an8}- 34 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,640 I'm on a hillside above Cusco in Peru, 35 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,760 investigating a possibly very ancient technique for shaping stone 36 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:13,400 known as Hanan Pacha. 37 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:22,440 We have a multi-layered mystery, and in order to solve that mystery, 38 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,160 we need to look at the different styles of architecture 39 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,880 sometimes coexisting in the same street. 40 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:30,360 Anywhere else in the world, 41 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,840 these would be taken as evidence of the handiwork of different cultures. 42 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,480 Midway between the Temple of the Moon and the vast megaliths of Sacsayhuaman 43 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,280 is another of the Sacred Valley's most important sites 44 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,480 that seems to use the same more ancient stone-shaping technique. 45 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:49,920 Q'enqo. 46 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,880 Its Quechua name translates to "labyrinth," 47 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,680 and as I begin to explore, I can see why. 48 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,440 One undertakes a journey to get into the heart of it, 49 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,720 a winding pathway that leads you through it 50 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,880 and causes you to reflect inwardly. 51 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:20,480 Q'enqo is ultimately a place where the individual finds him or herself alone, 52 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,280 surrounded by the mysterious mystical atmosphere, 53 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,000 surrounded by silence. 54 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,480 It's a complex network of sculpted tunnels, 55 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:40,960 subterranean galleries, 56 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:49,120 and what appear to be altars carved out of the bedrock. 57 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,840 And all seemingly leading to a central amphitheater, 58 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,920 where Jesus Gamarra once again joins me to share his expertise. 59 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,640 Were the Incas themselves responsible for any of the workmanship 60 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:07,240 {\an8}that we see at Q'enqo Chico? 61 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:08,640 {\an8} 62 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,360 {\an8}No. No. 63 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:16,600 While there are small indicators of Inca presence 64 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:19,840 like small stones and mud joints, 65 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:26,320 these are always respectfully built over the Hanan Pacha forms. 66 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,760 It is revered with great affection, 67 00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:33,280 and this is done by surrounding it 68 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:39,320 with very precise and respectful constructions of pieces. 69 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,000 Ancient sculpted rock surrounded 70 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,000 by more rudimentary block work 71 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,480 like I saw outside the Temple of the Moon. 72 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,120 It's a juxtaposition of styles 73 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,560 that we find in many of Peru's most sacred sites. 74 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,080 {\an8}As at Machu Picchu, 75 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,640 {\an8}the smoothly-sculpted ceremonial Intihuatana stone… 76 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,480 which again appears to be surrounded by later Inca construction, 77 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,400 perhaps to honor and respect this spot as sacred. 78 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,040 {\an8}This could explain the curious mix of stonework we see 79 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,080 {\an8}both in the walls of Cusco and at Sacsayhuaman, 80 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:26,800 {\an8}where what Jesus Gamarra identifies as later blocks are added above and around 81 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,720 the possibly much older smoothly-sculpted stones. 82 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,040 Regardless of when these blocks were shaped, 83 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,120 the question remains how? 84 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,440 Could we be looking at the fingerprints of a lost technology of prehistory? 85 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,200 {\an8}Jesus' research colleague, Jan Peter de Jong, thinks there are clues 86 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:55,280 {\an8}back at Sacsayhuaman as to how the rock was so expertly crafted. 87 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,800 Jan, you've just brought me to this very narrow tunnel 88 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,640 with very shiny sides. What's the name of this place? 89 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,120 They call it here the Chincana Chica. 90 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,160 It means "the place where one gets lost." 91 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:19,880 We're looking at natural bedrock here, 92 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,320 but clearly the tunnel is the result of human workmanship. 93 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,760 Is that characteristic of the oldest style of construction here, 94 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,560 that they work with the natural bedrock and shape it? 95 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,440 Yes, one of the characteristics of Hanan Pacha style 96 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,000 is that the stone is modified with like a mold technology. 97 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:37,880 You can see that… 98 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,920 they have been working with the stone as if it was soft. 99 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:41,840 Yes. 100 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,600 Because all kinds of things were pressed into the rock. 101 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,880 So when you say mold technology, you mean softening of the stone 102 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,280 and then pressing down the shape into the stone? 103 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,120 We think that the stones were soft at the moment of construction. 104 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,440 But how were they made soft? 105 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,040 Jan believes the walls of this tunnel are the key to the mystery. 106 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,080 So inside of this tunnel, um, we can see a lot of reflection. 107 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,040 I see it shining like a metallic sheen. 108 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,760 If you touch it, it's very smooth. 109 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,040 We think that it's been treated with heat, 110 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,840 and this heat caused like a layer on the stone, 111 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,960 and that's why it's this shiny. 112 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,280 Geologists call this effect vitrification. 113 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,520 Any idea how much heat would be involved? 114 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,560 Vitrification, it means "turn to glass," 115 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,440 and that means that we need, like, 1,400 degrees Celsius. 116 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,880 Which is a colossal amount of heat. 117 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,000 Yes. Of course, we don't know how they did it, 118 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:47,560 but we know that they did it. 119 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,280 When you look at it closely, you have to ask yourself, 120 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,680 "Is that heat source the explanation for the peculiar melted-together appearance 121 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,280 of the gigantic megaliths of Sacsayhuaman?" 122 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,720 The first thing skeptics would say is that the very shiny effect inside the tunnel 123 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,200 is caused by people brushing against the sides of the tunnel. 124 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:17,440 - Yeah. - What's your reaction? 125 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,440 So a lot of people say, "Yeah, of course. Yeah." 126 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,480 "It's been done by all the hands going through this tunnel, 127 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:25,440 - touching it there." - Mm-hmm. 128 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,080 But you can see it's also on the roof and the whole wall of the tunnel. 129 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,960 So it won't be logical to say 130 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,560 they've been touching all those places at the same time. 131 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,280 So what about the other argument that it's caused by volcanic activity? 132 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,280 Uh, well, we don't have any volcanoes here. 133 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,320 - Okay. - So it's not a logical explanation. 134 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,040 For Jan, the only viable explanation is 135 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,520 that we're looking at the results of some kind of ancient scientific process, 136 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,400 one perfected by a civilization that predates the Inca. 137 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,840 It has been done in the far past by ancient people. 138 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,840 And we don't know exactly which technology they used. 139 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,840 When I look at Sacsayhuaman, 140 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,720 I think I'm looking at the fingerprints of a lost technology, 141 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,200 of a lost science of stone-working, 142 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,280 a science that we are not masters of today 143 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,080 that we do not have the technology to reproduce. 144 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,720 The exact nature of the technology remains a mystery. 145 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,160 But Jesus Gamarra believes the extreme heat 146 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,080 that allowed the rock to be softened and molded as it was worked 147 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,320 also strengthened and hardened it after it set. 148 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,000 When I look around, in a way, although they're extremely ancient, 149 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,560 the stones have a very modern appearance. 150 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,840 How do you understand what we see in front of our eyes? 151 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:57,760 Only the parts that have been worked by heat and mold 152 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,080 are preserved without having been destroyed. 153 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,480 The rest of the stone appears rough. 154 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:11,320 There is the eroding effect of weathering. 155 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,040 What is your explanation of what we're looking at here? 156 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,880 There is a lot of mystery that we can't explain 157 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:26,000 because these are parts of a great historical past 158 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,920 that happened thousands of years ago. 159 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,080 At certain points, we have to just accept 160 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:41,080 that we are looking at an impossible engineering task. 161 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:42,960 Impossible in our terms. 162 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:48,280 It requires of us to be more open-minded 163 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:52,000 in our view of the ancients than we presently are. 164 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,040 According to local traditions recorded by the Spanish conquistadors, 165 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:01,320 the advanced techniques of working with stone 166 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,560 were part of a legacy of knowledge 167 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,080 passed down by the creator-god of the Andes, Viracocha… 168 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,000 …who would cause stones to be consumed by fire, 169 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:19,760 making large blocks as light as feathers that could be floated into place, 170 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:25,480 which sounds a lot like the extreme heat theory. 171 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,960 That's why I'm interested in Indigenous traditions 172 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:36,000 that do speak of the stones being melted or molded together. 173 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,440 Let's keep our ears and eyes open to such possibilities. 174 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,680 This evidence of unexplainable technologies at work 175 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,120 can be found throughout the highlands of ancient Peru. 176 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,880 But could there be proof of ancient scientific achievements 177 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,040 on the other side of the Andes Mountains 178 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:01,440 that we've similarly overlooked in the Amazon rainforest? 179 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,760 Just because those areas are not attractive 180 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:15,840 for human beings to live in today 181 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,560 doesn't mean that they weren't attractive in the past. 182 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,600 The investigations that are being done 183 00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:27,280 are revealing evidence that there are huge secrets in the Amazon. 184 00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:33,280 We now know the evidence for human habitation in ancient Amazonia 185 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,160 goes back at least 25,000 years. 186 00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:43,200 That suddenly opens up a much wider timeframe 187 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,080 in which to slot a lost civilization. 188 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,280 The possibilities that we need to be investigating 189 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,560 for creating civilizations become much deeper and much longer. 190 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:06,320 In fact, it seems the first Europeans to navigate the entire Amazon in 1542… 191 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,920 …may have caught a glimpse of the descendants 192 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,400 of just such a civilization when they passed near here. 193 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,400 The expedition was led by adventurer Francisco de Orellana 194 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,800 and was chronicled by a Dominican friar, Gaspar de Carvajal. 195 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,160 De Carvajal's journal didn't talk of 196 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,600 the endless, seemingly uninhabited forest we see today. 197 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,600 The cleric described the Amazon basin as teeming with cities 198 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,280 inhabited by highly-skilled peoples. 199 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,880 "One settlement," he wrote, "stretched unbroken for around 13 miles." 200 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,200 That's the length of Manhattan Island. 201 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,320 But when European missionaries arrived about a century later, 202 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,400 they saw no such cities. 203 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,760 So historians dismissed De Carvajal's account as a fiction, 204 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,560 concocted to impress the Spanish crown so they'd fund more such expeditions. 205 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,680 But as the endless jungle starts to give up its secrets, 206 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,200 it's beginning to look like those reports were true all along. 207 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,040 Recent discoveries in the Amazon suggest 208 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,760 that there was indeed an ancient civilization here. 209 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:37,880 {\an8}Using LiDAR to peer through the dense jungle canopy in Bolivia in 2019… 210 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,640 {\an8}archaeologists were amazed to see vast man-made structures and roads. 211 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,800 As a result of new research, now we're finding that there were huge settlements. 212 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,920 As we all know, there is a tradition of lost cities in the Amazon. 213 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,840 Cities is the right word to use to describe these settlements. 214 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,480 Based on the data and our knowledge of existing Amazonian villages, 215 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,120 researchers have a good idea of what one of those settlements 216 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,520 known as Cotoca might have looked like. 217 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,320 The city was almost a mile wide, 218 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:26,080 an entire metropolis, surrounded by canals and causeways. 219 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,280 Some led inwards to raised terraces, perhaps for individual dwellings. 220 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,960 And at the heart of the city lay a towering pyramid mound, 221 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,280 likely a ceremonial center. 222 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,760 What's more, this city appeared to be connected 223 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,600 to at least three similar settlements by raised roads stretching for miles. 224 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,280 We don't know much about the people who lived in this city. 225 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,280 What we do know, hidden beneath the jungle canopy, 226 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,640 is that there are more cities. Many more. 227 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,480 {\an8} 228 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,960 {\an8}Archaeologists have pieced together evidence 229 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,680 {\an8}revealing what they call a lost valley of ancient cities 230 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:15,560 hidden in the Ecuadorian Amazon. 231 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,840 In the western Amazon, archaeologists have recently uncovered 232 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,480 what appears to be a large cluster of settlements 233 00:17:24,360 --> 00:17:29,480 connected by roads, dating back 2,500 years, 234 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,560 much like the geoglyphs I saw in Brazil. 235 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,320 Creating large cities, creating the geoglyphs of Acre State, 236 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,560 this was not considered to be within the potential 237 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,160 of the hunter-gatherer inhabitants of the Amazon, 238 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,000 and yet it clearly was. 239 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,840 More and more of these ancient settlements continue to be discovered, 240 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,000 suggesting a widespread Amazonian civilization, 241 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,080 one that may have been home to as many as 20 million people. 242 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,800 What we are learning now is that the story of the Amazon 243 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:09,560 is not as it had been told. 244 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,760 Perhaps de Carvajal did witness large settlements in 1542. 245 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,720 But if so, why didn't the Europeans who voyaged down the river 246 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,480 over a century later see any evidence of them? 247 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,280 There's a rather grim explanation. 248 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,640 When the Spanish and the Portuguese came into the Americas, 249 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,640 they brought with them a whole host of diseases 250 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,640 to which European peoples had some natural immunity, 251 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,640 but to which the peoples of the Amazon did not. 252 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,400 Any population here would have been devastated, 253 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,520 while the rainforest quickly reclaimed their settlements. 254 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,080 But we find more echoes of that civilization 255 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,880 in a myth of the Western Amazon from the Tucano people. 256 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,600 The Tucano have an origin story about how their ancestors 257 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,360 were first brought to that area as part of a civilizing mission 258 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:14,040 in a… in a serpent canoe that travels the length of the Amazon system. 259 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,440 So the legend goes, 260 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,040 this anaconda canoe was helmed by a spirit being 261 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,920 and set down a cargo of human migrants. 262 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,680 Soon after, the divine daughter of the sun came to Earth, 263 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,360 bearing the gifts of fire and tools 264 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,320 as well as knowledge of arts and crafts. 265 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,920 She and her supernatural associates prepared the land for humans to thrive 266 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,600 before returning to their otherworldly abodes. 267 00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,360 This sounds to me so much like the civilizing hero stories 268 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:01,840 that are told all around the world 269 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,120 that I feel it's very much part of the… of the same pattern. 270 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,120 These themes keep on cropping up. 271 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,520 A spirit being who arrived by boat, 272 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,280 much like Quetzalcoatl did in Aztec lore. 273 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,760 Or Hotu Matu'a when he landed on Rapa Nui. 274 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,360 Or Viracocha, who appeared from the waters of Lake Titicaca 275 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,160 after a time of chaos. 276 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:32,600 Could this daughter of the sun 277 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,480 and her mission to encourage people to settle the Amazon 278 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:39,680 be related to the same lost civilization I've been looking for? 279 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:46,800 In the Peruvian Andes, 280 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,840 Viracocha supposedly worked miracles in stone. 281 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,120 But here in the Amazon, where large outcrops of rock are rare, 282 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,760 structures made from less durable material 283 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,400 such as wood and earth clearly predominate. 284 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,320 What's less clear is how they succeeded 285 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,040 in making this seemingly inhospitable place their home. 286 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,360 How did they sustain huge populations 287 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,080 on what we've long considered to be infertile soils? 288 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,600 If we don't get to grips with the ability of the Amazonian peoples 289 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,120 to feed populations of millions, 290 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,720 then we're not ever going to get to grips with the… 291 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,320 the truth about the human story as a whole. 292 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:43,520 One explanation can be found in the heart of the Brazilian Amazon, near Manaus. 293 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:48,360 Emerging from the very ground of the Amazon itself, 294 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,920 a long buried secret has recently been brought to light. 295 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,120 Evidence of an ancient science that helps to explain 296 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,560 how the rainforest supported large urban populations. 297 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,480 Angela Araujo is an archaeologist 298 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,160 who specializes in humankind's historical relationship with plants. 299 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,080 Recently, she's been focusing her studies on a mysterious phenomenon. 300 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:26,440 Typically, rainforest soils are not particularly fertile 301 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,520 or suitable for agriculture. 302 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,760 But around settlements, ancient and modern, 303 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,400 scientists have found something astonishing, 304 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,600 self-regenerating patches of soil 305 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,440 they call "terra preta" or Amazonian dark earth. 306 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:50,360 We have here a soil which is dark in color by comparison with the surrounding soils. 307 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,600 Mysteriously and strangely, it contains bacteria, 308 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,400 which constantly reproduce and renew themselves 309 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,320 and renew the fertility of the soil. It's a kind of magical earth. 310 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,200 And this super-powered soil has been found all across the Amazon 311 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,120 wherever there's evidence of humans. 312 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,600 I'm meeting Angela near a recently-discovered ancient settlement 313 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,280 to see this dark earth for myself. 314 00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:24,760 When did you first become specifically interested in Amazonian dark earth? 315 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:30,080 {\an8}Nowadays, we also use this soil 316 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,680 {\an8}for agriculture in the region. 317 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:36,000 And all of a sudden, I came across an interaction 318 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,680 between the past and these populations. 319 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,760 I wanted to understand why and how 320 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:48,000 these populations were connected to such dark soil. 321 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,960 Researchers have found that mixed in with the organic elements 322 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,440 of every patch of dark earth, no matter how old, 323 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,880 are tiny ceramic shards, 324 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,880 undeniable evidence that human populations have been involved 325 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:03,960 in generating this special soil. 326 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,920 And studies have found samples dating back at least 7,000 years. 327 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,200 How large were those populations? 328 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,240 I can't say for sure, but there are records that suggest 329 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,480 there were at least around three million people 330 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,640 living in the region of the Alto Rio Negro alone. 331 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,600 Do you think that the ancients deliberately, 332 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,040 cleverly invented this soil? 333 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:36,400 Or did they discover its special properties by accident? 334 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,000 Personally, I don't believe it was intentional. 335 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,720 I believe what happened was that, with so many people inhabiting the area, 336 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:49,360 a lot of decomposing waste was produced bringing about these benefits. 337 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,480 But it's a chicken and egg argument. 338 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,960 I can't help seeing a paradox here. 339 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,520 On the one hand, we're saying 340 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,360 that there were very large populations in the Amazon 341 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,640 and that as an accidental product of their presence, 342 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,480 they created black earth. 343 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,840 But on the other hand, we're saying that natural Amazon soils 344 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,120 are not fertile enough to support large populations. 345 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,840 Doesn't it seem likely that what made the large populations possible 346 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,680 was the black earth itself? 347 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,240 I believe it's possible 348 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,920 that they realized the area was productive, 349 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:38,400 but their intention wasn't, 350 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:43,240 "I will dump waste to fertilize the land and improve crop production." 351 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,360 The research continues. 352 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,880 But to me, the reason this feels so intentional 353 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,880 is that terra preta can be found throughout the Amazon, 354 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,400 inevitably close by prehistoric settlements. 355 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,960 We need to be more open-minded 356 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,440 in our view of the capacity of the ancients than we presently are. 357 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,040 We need to regard them as masters of their environment 358 00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:17,840 who made that environment work for them over thousands and thousands of years. 359 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,920 And given the immensity of the jungle, 360 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,360 who knows how many more patches of terra preta may lie undiscovered 361 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,240 that could push the origins of this miracle soil 362 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,680 even further back into the past. 363 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,320 The proposition I present here, 364 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,360 hotly contested by many archaeologists, 365 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,600 is that the settlement and expansion of human populations in the Amazon 366 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,400 was a planned affair. 367 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,280 But building and maintaining those vast settlements 368 00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:54,680 would have demanded massive amounts of natural resources. 369 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,280 Not just food crops, but something we might imagine 370 00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:01,840 could never have been scarce in the Amazon itself. 371 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:03,800 Timber. 372 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,080 The Amazon is truly a wonder of natural diversity. 373 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:19,360 Today, there are around 390 billion trees here, 374 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:22,680 made up of some 16,000 species. 375 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,200 What if I told you that most of this immense jungle 376 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,160 is the end result of an intentional campaign 377 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,800 undertaken by humans thousands of years ago? 378 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,200 What if I told you the Amazon might have been planted? 379 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,680 Researchers have confirmed that during the Ice Age, 380 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:59,680 the Amazon wasn't dense jungle, but grassland broken up by trees. 381 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,760 They assumed the warming planet nurtured the sprawling rainforest we see today. 382 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,680 But recently, archaeobotanists uncovered something unexpected. 383 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:16,760 Half of the forest is made up of just 1.4% of known Amazonian tree species, 384 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,760 the very same species, as it turns out, that happen to be useful to humans. 385 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:29,400 Was this the result of a long-term project set in motion thousands of years ago, 386 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,480 a project that would eventually blossom 387 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,080 into a widespread Indigenous Amazonian civilization? 388 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:39,760 And there's something else. 389 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,720 As with terra preta, most of these useful trees are found 390 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,040 close by the newly-discovered ancient cities of the Amazon. 391 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,520 Instead of the hostile, dangerous jungle that we Westerners tend to see, 392 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,920 they were turning it into a homeland for millions, 393 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,560 making the Amazon a garden, making it a place that served human needs. 394 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,400 In the 20th century, 395 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:08,720 {\an8}it was thought that the hinterlands of Amazonia was totally virgin. 396 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,560 That humans had not touched it. 397 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,840 And now we know that many of the trees that we have here, 398 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,720 Brazil nut, many palms, are semi-cultivated 399 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,360 and even cultivated and domesticated, 400 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,240 so that our understanding of the forest has changed. 401 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,800 This is truly a scientific project 402 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,360 that's been underway in the Amazon for a very long time. 403 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,040 How long, exactly? 404 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:41,760 What's really intriguing 405 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,800 is that the oldest date for tree cultivation so far 406 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,440 found in the Amazon is some 10,800 years ago. 407 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,440 That's around the end of the Ice Age, 408 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,400 exactly the time that we see similar leaps forward 409 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,160 in human civilization and innovation all across the globe. 410 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,360 This causes us to ask what else remains to be found 411 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,000 in that vast expanse of the Amazon rainforest 412 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,240 that really wasn't supposed to be there and yet clearly is there. 413 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,360 As we saw with the advanced stonework of ancient Peru, 414 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,600 these sophisticated agricultural projects and settlements in the Amazon 415 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,400 begun thousands of years ago 416 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,760 seem to demonstrate scientific achievements 417 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,480 that are, to say the least, unexpected so long ago. 418 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,920 We have to completely reframe our understanding of the Amazon. 419 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,400 We have to see it as a product of human intelligence, human initiative, 420 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,240 human ingenuity, and human intention. 421 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,720 The most astounding example of Amazonian technology 422 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,200 may also point to an unexpected source for all this advanced knowledge. 423 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,040 I've returned to the Peruvian Amazon to learn more. 424 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,960 {\an8}This is Iquitos, a port city located at a junction 425 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,760 where the great river is fed by several tributaries. 426 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:18,920 The port might be young, 427 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,960 but this region has, for thousands of years, 428 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,160 been a center for a profound cultural practice, 429 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,000 the use of ayahuasca. 430 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,760 {\an8}Dr. Luis Eduardo Luna is an Indigenous anthropologist 431 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,320 and leading expert on this ancient plant-based medicine. 432 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,640 I have witnessed many people taking ayahuasca, 433 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,400 and I'm astonished, you know, by what they experience, 434 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,200 sometimes extraordinary journeys into other realms, 435 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,400 sometimes simply looking into themselves, 436 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,400 finding ways of solving their own problems. 437 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:56,840 What do you see happening? 438 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,920 Important changes taking place in their lives? 439 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,680 Many people write to me, you know, 440 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,400 and that those experiences were completely life-changing, 441 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,600 changed completely their perspective, you know. 442 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,240 The use of ayahuasca has recently become popular 443 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,320 in our contemporary society. 444 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:20,120 But for Indigenous people of the Amazon, the brew has long held a sacred power. 445 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,440 Many Indigenous people say, you know, 446 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,800 they take ayahuasca in order to understand the rules of society, 447 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,160 you know, become better human beings. 448 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,960 The preparation of ayahuasca 449 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,360 is the realm of the shaman healers or curanderos. 450 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,640 {\an8}Like Don Francisco Montes Shuna from the Kapanawa people, 451 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,280 {\an8}who must blow smoke from an ancient species of tobacco 452 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,440 known as mapacho to purify the ritual. 453 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:02,960 In the Capanahua language, my name is Shamorin Kyashi Piary. 454 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,720 Shamorin Kyashi Piary means "The Angel of the Jungle." 455 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,120 I come from a line of healers. 456 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,120 I feel the connection to all my ancestors, 457 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,440 my grandmother, my great-grandmother, the whole family. 458 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:38,880 We are connected and feel the connections with everything to do with Amazonia. 459 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,800 As research progresses, 460 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,280 the evidence is building that ayahuasca can have health benefits. 461 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,160 When brewed, the vine alone has powerful healing properties 462 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,360 thanks to a molecule it contains known to science as harmine. 463 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,800 There have been studies suggesting neurogenesis. 464 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:03,720 Mm-hmm. 465 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,840 You know, that the harmine will be producing new neurons, 466 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,200 even new beta cells for the pancreas. 467 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:10,160 Mm-hmm. 468 00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:14,440 And perhaps new cells also for the ligaments and so on. 469 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,280 The harmine in the vine might be a medical miracle, 470 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,040 but it doesn't produce a visionary state. 471 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,600 That only happens when it's combined with the leaves of certain other plants 472 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,800 Indigenous to the Amazon like this one called chaliponga, 473 00:34:35,240 --> 00:34:38,880 which contains the psychoactive chemical at the heart of ayahuasca, 474 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,400 DMT, short for dimethyltryptamine. 475 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,800 DMT is considered one of the most potent psychedelics. 476 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,440 But scientific studies have now confirmed it is non-addictive 477 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,360 and can have therapeutic properties 478 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,280 when administered in controlled doses and circumstances. 479 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,840 We're discovering that when accompanied by talking therapy as well, 480 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,560 it can be extremely helpful in bringing to an end 481 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,520 long-term intractable conditions. 482 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,120 But there's just one problem. 483 00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:21,200 DMT isn't orally active 484 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,160 because enzymes in the gut normally destroy it on contact. 485 00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:28,200 It's precisely here 486 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,240 that the shamanistic science of the Amazon comes in 487 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:33,360 with a remarkable solution. 488 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,480 So what happens is that the harmine in the vine 489 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,600 will block the destruction of DMT in the gut, 490 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,080 so that the DMT will cross the blood-brain barrier, 491 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,400 go into receptors in the brain. 492 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,920 That is what produces the visions, you know, the DMT. 493 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:55,200 The result? 494 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,040 Out of the tens of thousands of plant species of the Amazon, 495 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:05,480 only the combination of the ayahuasca vine with the leaves of a plant containing DMT 496 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,880 will produce the highly-prized visionary effects. 497 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:17,560 We have two plants, which are not psychoactive on their own, 498 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,240 but are psychoactive when cooked together 499 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,280 to create the ayahuasca brew. 500 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,520 To do that by trial and error 501 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,400 could involve centuries or millennia of experimentation. 502 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,560 I think we have a mystery here. How did they come to this discovery? 503 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,760 Right there looks to me like a scientific project. 504 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,440 It is, yeah, absolutely. 505 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,280 I mean, it is based on experience. It's based on observation. 506 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,760 It's based on experimentation, constant experimentation and so on. 507 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,760 - Over thousands of years? - Yes, exactly. 508 00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:53,720 This tradition goes back thousands of years. 509 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,200 I mean, we can't say. Two thousand, three thousand years… 510 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,480 We're getting evidence of science in the Amazon, 511 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:09,080 the knowledge that Indigenous shamans have accumulated and passed down 512 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:14,720 over generations, over thousands of years, of plants and the properties of plants 513 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,640 and how they may be mixed together to produce desired effects. 514 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,320 During an ayahuasca ceremony, the shaman summons the visions 515 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,560 by singing an ikaro, a power song. 516 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,240 But the shaman is simply the ceremonial leader. 517 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,120 The plant itself is considered the teacher. 518 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,880 When you take ayahuasca, 519 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,640 you need to prepare a question. 520 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:01,800 She will provide an answer. 521 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,720 The power of psychedelics to achieve a deeper wisdom 522 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,480 isn't limited to the Amazon. 523 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:15,840 We see it in many of the world's 524 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,760 most ancient and deeply respected cultures. 525 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,240 It's clear now that what we call psychedelics today 526 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,600 were embraced all around the ancient world. 527 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:35,280 In Ancient Greece, Socrates and Plato wrote of intellectual breakthroughs 528 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,640 following the ritual taking of a hallucinogenic brew. 529 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,240 Hieroglyphs from Egypt suggest they ingested petals 530 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,440 from the psychoactive blue water lily to communicate with the divine. 531 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,280 And in the Vedic sacrifices of ancient India, 532 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,840 priests seeking to connect with the gods 533 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,200 drank a visionary concoction known as soma. 534 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,640 The fact that these altered states of consciousness have been embraced 535 00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:05,760 throughout prehistory and history 536 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,160 tell us that they're very important to the human experience. 537 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,160 I actually think that it's impossible to understand the ancient world 538 00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:15,160 unless we take psychedelics into account. 539 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,760 What's your own view on how old ayahuasca might be? 540 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,440 They've been experimented with for thousands of years. 541 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:23,920 - It could be much older. - Yeah. 542 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,000 - It feels ancient to me. - Yeah. 543 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:29,960 This is an extraordinary mystery. 544 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,280 I believe the complex science of ayahuasca goes back 545 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,680 much further than anyone thinks. 546 00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:40,280 And there's evidence to prove it.