1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:12,612 --> 00:00:13,712 [cell phone vibrates] 4 00:00:13,789 --> 00:00:15,630 - One night my phone rang. 5 00:00:15,641 --> 00:00:18,300 - You have a prepaid call from an inmate 6 00:00:18,376 --> 00:00:20,343 at the California State Prison, 7 00:00:20,420 --> 00:00:22,146 San Quentin, California. 8 00:00:29,846 --> 00:00:32,197 - Bittaker had a series of heart attacks. 9 00:00:38,647 --> 00:00:40,739 - Teenagers brutally attacked. 10 00:00:40,816 --> 00:00:42,657 Roy Norris and Lawrence Bittaker... 11 00:00:42,734 --> 00:00:45,202 - Raping and murdering five teenage girls. 12 00:00:45,278 --> 00:00:46,995 - The evil that these guys caused-- 13 00:00:47,072 --> 00:00:50,290 it really captured the fear of the city of Los Angeles. 14 00:00:50,301 --> 00:00:52,084 - Just a lot more careful about where I go. 15 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:54,002 - I'm afraid to be walking down the street. 16 00:00:54,079 --> 00:00:56,096 - Lawrence Bittaker and his partner, Roy Norris, 17 00:00:56,173 --> 00:00:57,773 were known as the Toolbox Killers. 18 00:00:57,775 --> 00:00:59,925 - Bittaker was the most evil man 19 00:01:00,001 --> 00:01:01,968 because of that toolbox. 20 00:01:01,979 --> 00:01:04,846 - Pliers, vise grips, 21 00:01:04,857 --> 00:01:06,973 ice picks. 22 00:01:07,050 --> 00:01:10,069 - I thought Roy Norris was very strange. 23 00:01:10,145 --> 00:01:12,145 - I think he hated women. 24 00:01:12,222 --> 00:01:14,356 - He creeped me out. 25 00:01:14,432 --> 00:01:16,233 - I interviewed Lawrence Bittaker, 26 00:01:16,309 --> 00:01:18,051 the most sadistic serial killer 27 00:01:18,128 --> 00:01:21,305 on San Quentin's death row, for over five years. 28 00:01:25,110 --> 00:01:27,035 He used to say to me, "If I just had one good parent, 29 00:01:27,112 --> 00:01:28,995 I wouldn't have become this monster." 30 00:01:29,072 --> 00:01:32,541 - The police followed Norris, and, boy, did they find a lot. 31 00:01:32,617 --> 00:01:34,376 - Hundreds of pictures of young girls 32 00:01:34,452 --> 00:01:36,211 were found in their possession. 33 00:01:36,288 --> 00:01:38,213 - Everyone one of these photographs 34 00:01:38,290 --> 00:01:39,923 represents a potential victim. 35 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,051 - I thought, "He's gonna kill me in the courtroom." 36 00:01:43,062 --> 00:01:47,272 - Oh, I thought about killing Lawrence Bittaker at the trial. 37 00:01:47,349 --> 00:01:50,058 I would dream that I had a gun. 38 00:01:50,135 --> 00:01:53,728 - He was sexually aroused by their screams and their cries. 39 00:01:53,805 --> 00:01:56,273 - Bittaker finds out that she is a virgin. 40 00:01:56,349 --> 00:01:59,943 He wants to audio-record the rape of a virgin. 41 00:02:00,020 --> 00:02:02,246 - They begin to play the tape. 42 00:02:08,403 --> 00:02:11,755 - The courtroom was stunned. - [crying] 43 00:02:22,334 --> 00:02:25,218 [suspenseful music] 44 00:02:25,295 --> 00:02:32,109 ¶ ¶ 45 00:02:42,896 --> 00:02:44,237 - I first came 46 00:02:44,314 --> 00:02:46,081 across Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris, 47 00:02:46,158 --> 00:02:47,541 the Toolbox Killers-- 48 00:02:47,618 --> 00:02:51,453 it was in a criminology textbook. 49 00:02:51,529 --> 00:02:54,039 I remember it like it was yesterday. 50 00:02:54,049 --> 00:02:59,002 And I read about what they did with the van... 51 00:02:59,079 --> 00:03:01,463 with the girls, 52 00:03:01,539 --> 00:03:04,007 with the ice pick through the ears, 53 00:03:04,084 --> 00:03:06,885 and the torture for days. 54 00:03:06,896 --> 00:03:10,555 And I just remember, I dropped the book 55 00:03:10,632 --> 00:03:13,808 'cause I was so floored by the level of sadism. 56 00:03:13,885 --> 00:03:17,604 ¶ ¶ 57 00:03:17,681 --> 00:03:21,566 I always wondered what it took to get to that level of sadism, 58 00:03:21,643 --> 00:03:24,653 how their progression from their childhood 59 00:03:24,729 --> 00:03:29,491 to committing such violent, heinous acts transpired. 60 00:03:29,567 --> 00:03:32,211 That was something I really wanted to explore. 61 00:03:32,287 --> 00:03:34,412 I majored in forensic psychology. 62 00:03:34,489 --> 00:03:36,498 I had this incredible professor. 63 00:03:36,574 --> 00:03:39,051 He said, "If you start doing your own study, 64 00:03:39,127 --> 00:03:40,669 "this will give you a leg up 65 00:03:40,745 --> 00:03:43,213 when you go for higher education." 66 00:03:43,290 --> 00:03:46,132 I developed this questionnaire that I sent out to-- 67 00:03:46,209 --> 00:03:49,803 I think it was, like, 80 different serial killers. 68 00:03:49,879 --> 00:03:52,555 My only goal was to create a set of questions 69 00:03:52,632 --> 00:03:54,933 that they can't manipulate so we can catch 70 00:03:55,010 --> 00:03:57,394 these violent patterns and behaviors early on, 71 00:03:57,470 --> 00:04:01,189 before these other offenders go on to do a life of crime, 72 00:04:01,266 --> 00:04:03,858 like Lawrence Bittaker. 73 00:04:03,869 --> 00:04:06,161 I didn't even think I was gonna get a response back. 74 00:04:06,238 --> 00:04:08,738 And I was like, "They're not gonna help me with a study," 75 00:04:08,749 --> 00:04:10,198 you know. 76 00:04:10,275 --> 00:04:12,742 I ended up getting a crazy amount of responses, 77 00:04:12,753 --> 00:04:13,994 and I was shocked. 78 00:04:14,070 --> 00:04:16,880 But when I first reached out to Bittaker, 79 00:04:16,957 --> 00:04:18,707 he wrote me back saying he didn't want to talk to me, 80 00:04:18,783 --> 00:04:20,041 he didn't want to do the survey. 81 00:04:20,118 --> 00:04:22,127 He's in his late 70s at this point, 82 00:04:22,203 --> 00:04:25,005 and he didn't want to talk about the crimes. 83 00:04:25,081 --> 00:04:27,716 So many journalists tried to get him to do interviews 84 00:04:27,792 --> 00:04:31,395 over the years, but he just denied everybody. 85 00:04:31,471 --> 00:04:33,188 I had already collected so much data 86 00:04:33,265 --> 00:04:35,140 from the other inmates. 87 00:04:35,216 --> 00:04:36,525 Why am I bothering with one 88 00:04:36,601 --> 00:04:38,768 that is so challenging to deal with? 89 00:04:38,779 --> 00:04:41,479 But he was the most sadistic serial killer 90 00:04:41,556 --> 00:04:43,857 in American history, the worst of the worst, 91 00:04:43,933 --> 00:04:45,701 and I wanted to try to find out 92 00:04:45,777 --> 00:04:47,694 if he was hiding something for all these years. 93 00:04:47,705 --> 00:04:48,903 I didn't take no for an answer, 94 00:04:48,980 --> 00:04:50,488 and I just kept writing and writing 95 00:04:50,565 --> 00:04:52,741 for years and years and years. 96 00:04:52,817 --> 00:04:56,661 One day, he finally agreed to talk to me. 97 00:04:56,738 --> 00:04:58,830 - This call is being recorded. 98 00:04:58,907 --> 00:05:00,707 If you do not wish to be recorded, 99 00:05:00,784 --> 00:05:03,260 please disconnect at this time. 100 00:05:16,841 --> 00:05:20,477 - Bittaker was really tricky to warm up to 101 00:05:20,553 --> 00:05:21,737 and build the trust and rapport. 102 00:05:21,813 --> 00:05:23,071 It really took a lot of time. 103 00:05:23,148 --> 00:05:24,573 Early on in our relationship, 104 00:05:24,649 --> 00:05:28,318 we used to try to have just, like, normal conversations, 105 00:05:28,329 --> 00:05:29,995 and it was like he just couldn't do it. 106 00:05:37,695 --> 00:05:40,589 [indistinct chatter] 107 00:05:40,665 --> 00:05:44,542 - As an FBI agent, I worked in the FBI's BAU, 108 00:05:44,619 --> 00:05:47,629 commonly known as the Behavior Analysis Unit, 109 00:05:47,705 --> 00:05:51,007 and in that unit, I was involved 110 00:05:51,084 --> 00:05:54,427 in working a number of very violent crimes, 111 00:05:54,504 --> 00:05:57,806 most specifically serial murder cases. 112 00:05:57,882 --> 00:06:01,142 When I first met Larry, he was clearly playing 113 00:06:01,219 --> 00:06:02,727 a cat-and-mouse game with me. 114 00:06:02,804 --> 00:06:04,613 Didn't admit to anything. 115 00:06:04,689 --> 00:06:06,356 Said he hadn't done anything wrong. 116 00:06:06,433 --> 00:06:08,817 He didn't give up very much. 117 00:06:08,893 --> 00:06:13,071 - Bittaker, he doesn't see people as individuals. 118 00:06:13,148 --> 00:06:18,284 He sees them as objects to be used and to toss away. 119 00:06:18,361 --> 00:06:19,878 I was a special trial deputy 120 00:06:19,955 --> 00:06:23,039 handling some of the most gruesome murder cases 121 00:06:23,050 --> 00:06:24,582 in L.A. County, 122 00:06:24,659 --> 00:06:28,044 including Charles Manson and his family members. 123 00:06:28,121 --> 00:06:30,547 I always felt that Lawrence Bittaker 124 00:06:30,623 --> 00:06:32,257 was the worst, 125 00:06:32,267 --> 00:06:36,636 even worse than Manson, because of the torture. 126 00:06:36,713 --> 00:06:38,763 - He always said he wanted to be 127 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:41,641 bigger than Charlie Manson. 128 00:06:41,718 --> 00:06:43,017 My name is Dennis McCarthy. 129 00:06:43,094 --> 00:06:45,320 I was a reporter at the South Bay "Daily Breeze" 130 00:06:45,397 --> 00:06:47,121 in 1981, 131 00:06:47,123 --> 00:06:49,482 and I covered the murder trial of Lawrence Bittaker, 132 00:06:49,559 --> 00:06:50,900 the Toolbox Killer. 133 00:06:50,977 --> 00:06:52,902 [camera shutter clicks, camera whirs] 134 00:06:52,979 --> 00:06:57,824 Larry was such a fascinating study in evil. 135 00:06:57,901 --> 00:07:00,160 Basically, Bittaker's defense was, "I didn't do it. 136 00:07:00,236 --> 00:07:02,203 It was the other guy." Right? "It was Norris." 137 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:04,289 [camera shutter clicks, camera whirs] 138 00:07:04,365 --> 00:07:07,250 - Bittaker and Norris met and spoke in prison. 139 00:07:07,327 --> 00:07:10,545 Their sharing of violent sexual fantasies 140 00:07:10,622 --> 00:07:13,339 really cemented their relationship. 141 00:07:13,416 --> 00:07:15,717 - You had violent Bittaker 142 00:07:15,793 --> 00:07:18,386 and rapist Norris getting together. 143 00:07:18,463 --> 00:07:20,638 Bittaker was the lead. 144 00:07:20,715 --> 00:07:23,266 Norris was the follower. 145 00:07:23,343 --> 00:07:27,729 ¶ ¶ 146 00:07:27,805 --> 00:07:30,106 - Lawrence Bittaker was a near-genius. 147 00:07:30,183 --> 00:07:31,733 He has a 138 IQ. 148 00:07:31,809 --> 00:07:33,693 When you're working with a psychopath, 149 00:07:33,770 --> 00:07:35,695 if you go in and you're pretending 150 00:07:35,772 --> 00:07:37,405 to be something you're not, they can tell. 151 00:07:37,482 --> 00:07:38,707 These guys are smart. 152 00:07:38,783 --> 00:07:40,241 And if you're gonna play games with them, 153 00:07:40,318 --> 00:07:42,535 they're gonna play games with you. 154 00:07:42,612 --> 00:07:44,454 So I go in nonjudgmental. 155 00:07:44,465 --> 00:07:46,873 I build a real, actual, 156 00:07:46,950 --> 00:07:48,791 authentic relationship with them, 157 00:07:48,868 --> 00:07:50,585 and I definitely open up about myself 158 00:07:50,662 --> 00:07:52,587 and my own personal life. 159 00:07:52,664 --> 00:07:55,089 Anytime you're working with offenders 160 00:07:55,166 --> 00:07:56,925 who have antisocial personality, 161 00:07:57,001 --> 00:07:58,968 there's always gonna be a risk. 162 00:07:59,045 --> 00:08:01,596 But once Lawrence Bittaker and I finally felt that trust 163 00:08:01,673 --> 00:08:03,973 and that rapport, he started to reveal stuff 164 00:08:04,050 --> 00:08:06,109 that he had never told anybody else about this case. 165 00:08:27,031 --> 00:08:30,124 - I guess it was a Sunday. 166 00:08:30,135 --> 00:08:36,339 ¶ ¶ 167 00:08:36,416 --> 00:08:39,759 - Bittaker and Norris had been driving all day for 15 hours 168 00:08:39,770 --> 00:08:41,135 just smoking weed 169 00:08:41,212 --> 00:08:42,971 and photographing unsuspecting girls, 170 00:08:43,047 --> 00:08:46,391 when they spotted Cindy Schaefer. 171 00:08:46,467 --> 00:08:48,851 She was dropped off at a church meeting 172 00:08:48,928 --> 00:08:50,478 in Redondo Beach, 173 00:08:50,555 --> 00:08:52,313 and she had left early, 174 00:08:52,390 --> 00:08:54,315 and she was walking back to her grandparents' place, 175 00:08:54,392 --> 00:08:57,035 where she was staying, and they start to trail her. 176 00:09:50,490 --> 00:09:52,882 - The police had no leads. 177 00:09:56,921 --> 00:09:58,546 They had a big, bloody fight. 178 00:09:58,623 --> 00:10:02,601 - She is punching him and just fighting for her life. 179 00:10:07,382 --> 00:10:11,234 ¶ ¶ 180 00:10:15,289 --> 00:10:17,398 [suspenseful music] 181 00:10:17,475 --> 00:10:22,287 ¶ ¶ 182 00:10:32,824 --> 00:10:35,291 ¶ ¶ 183 00:10:35,368 --> 00:10:38,920 - Cindy Schaefer was a very bright young woman. 184 00:10:38,930 --> 00:10:40,705 She was 16 years old. 185 00:10:40,707 --> 00:10:43,758 - Cindy was, from all accounts of everybody who knew her, 186 00:10:43,835 --> 00:10:45,560 just the sweetest and nicest girl 187 00:10:45,637 --> 00:10:46,886 you could have ever imagined. 188 00:10:46,963 --> 00:10:50,598 - She tutored in Spanish, algebra, 189 00:10:50,675 --> 00:10:52,809 and geometry in high school 190 00:10:52,885 --> 00:10:56,187 and just had so many friends. 191 00:10:56,264 --> 00:10:57,922 - She wanted to go to college. 192 00:10:57,999 --> 00:11:00,075 She wanted to study language and teach foreign language, 193 00:11:00,151 --> 00:11:01,701 just like her mother. 194 00:11:37,823 --> 00:11:39,897 ¶ ¶ 195 00:11:39,974 --> 00:11:41,774 - When Bittaker would talk 196 00:11:41,851 --> 00:11:44,819 about how the girl more or less went along with it 197 00:11:44,830 --> 00:11:46,754 once she was inside the van, 198 00:11:46,756 --> 00:11:49,532 as effort on his part to minimize his involvement, 199 00:11:49,609 --> 00:11:52,076 to minimize how serious these crimes were, 200 00:11:52,153 --> 00:11:53,953 he's trying to manage the impression 201 00:11:53,964 --> 00:11:55,922 that you have of him. 202 00:12:04,332 --> 00:12:06,799 - Bittaker, when he was a teenager, 203 00:12:06,876 --> 00:12:11,554 had been placed in a camp in the San Gabriel Mountains, 204 00:12:11,631 --> 00:12:14,849 and he thought that that would be a good place 205 00:12:14,926 --> 00:12:17,101 for them to take their victims, 206 00:12:17,178 --> 00:12:21,156 because nobody would hear them scream. 207 00:12:53,139 --> 00:12:56,015 - Cindy asked if they were gonna kill her. 208 00:12:56,092 --> 00:12:59,644 She said, "I just want you to let me pray 209 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:01,145 if you're gonna kill me." 210 00:13:01,222 --> 00:13:03,606 - Bittaker and Norris laughed at her, 211 00:13:03,683 --> 00:13:06,150 and Bittaker turned to her, and he said, 212 00:13:06,227 --> 00:13:08,653 "God isn't here, only devils." 213 00:13:08,729 --> 00:13:10,997 ¶ ¶ 214 00:13:50,813 --> 00:13:53,373 ¶ ¶ 215 00:13:58,070 --> 00:14:00,913 - Norris saw that Cindy was crying, 216 00:14:00,990 --> 00:14:04,542 and he just couldn't do it anymore, so he let go, 217 00:14:04,619 --> 00:14:09,046 and he went over to the side of the road and threw up. 218 00:14:09,123 --> 00:14:12,425 Bittaker went to the back of his van 219 00:14:12,501 --> 00:14:15,928 and sectioned a wire coat hanger, 220 00:14:16,005 --> 00:14:19,473 and told Norris to wrap it around her neck and choke her. 221 00:14:19,484 --> 00:14:21,609 And Norris tried to do that manually, 222 00:14:21,686 --> 00:14:23,987 but he couldn't get it tight enough. 223 00:14:24,063 --> 00:14:27,148 So Bittaker got a pair of vise grips 224 00:14:27,158 --> 00:14:28,691 from the back of the van 225 00:14:28,768 --> 00:14:33,446 and tightened it enough so that it finally killed her. 226 00:14:33,522 --> 00:14:38,418 ¶ ¶ 227 00:15:39,463 --> 00:15:41,097 - There were no leads 228 00:15:41,173 --> 00:15:43,474 to explain Cindy's disappearance. 229 00:15:43,551 --> 00:15:46,310 They even found a girl in Tijuana 230 00:15:46,387 --> 00:15:47,962 that they thought might be her, 231 00:15:48,039 --> 00:15:51,315 so they went all the way down to Tijuana and saw the girl, 232 00:15:51,392 --> 00:15:53,201 and, of course, it wasn't Cindy. 233 00:15:53,277 --> 00:15:56,237 Nobody had really any idea. 234 00:15:56,313 --> 00:15:58,406 They, of course, didn't realize 235 00:15:58,482 --> 00:16:00,074 that she was the first victim 236 00:16:00,151 --> 00:16:03,336 of the infamous Toolbox Killers. 237 00:16:06,157 --> 00:16:09,208 - We know that Larry Bittaker was a criminal sexual sadist. 238 00:16:09,219 --> 00:16:13,337 He's an individual who is sexually aroused 239 00:16:13,414 --> 00:16:17,008 by the infliction of physical or emotional pain 240 00:16:17,084 --> 00:16:20,094 on his non-consenting partners. 241 00:16:20,171 --> 00:16:23,264 He wants the victim to scream, to cry. 242 00:16:23,274 --> 00:16:25,891 He wants to see the fear in their eyes. 243 00:16:25,968 --> 00:16:29,186 We know this behavior would have started 244 00:16:29,263 --> 00:16:31,239 at a very, very early age. 245 00:16:49,116 --> 00:16:53,127 ¶ ¶ 246 00:16:53,204 --> 00:16:54,545 - Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker 247 00:16:54,622 --> 00:16:58,007 was born to a teen mother in 1940. 248 00:16:58,084 --> 00:17:00,760 Bittaker's father was violent, and his mother was a drinker. 249 00:17:00,836 --> 00:17:03,354 She would go and leave him and his little brother home alone 250 00:17:03,431 --> 00:17:04,989 while she went out and partied. 251 00:17:05,065 --> 00:17:07,725 Soon, the family convinced her to give up the two boys. 252 00:17:07,802 --> 00:17:10,144 They were adopted by different aunts and uncles 253 00:17:10,155 --> 00:17:11,395 within the family. 254 00:17:11,472 --> 00:17:13,230 - At some point, something happened to him 255 00:17:13,307 --> 00:17:15,441 when he was a little boy. 256 00:17:15,518 --> 00:17:17,693 Sexually sadistic behaviors are learned 257 00:17:17,704 --> 00:17:20,571 when their sexual identity is being formed. 258 00:17:20,648 --> 00:17:23,916 So, whether Larry had been himself the victim 259 00:17:23,993 --> 00:17:25,576 of some kind of sexual abuse, 260 00:17:25,653 --> 00:17:28,204 that more than likely shaped his development 261 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:29,997 as a sexual sadist. 262 00:17:30,074 --> 00:17:33,793 - Bittaker was raised by an aunt and uncle. 263 00:17:33,869 --> 00:17:36,420 They provided what would have been a good life 264 00:17:36,497 --> 00:17:37,755 for a normal person, 265 00:17:37,832 --> 00:17:40,224 but Bittaker was not a normal person. 266 00:17:57,518 --> 00:17:58,993 - Even in his 70s, 267 00:17:59,070 --> 00:18:01,487 he would talk about the mother who gave him up. 268 00:18:01,564 --> 00:18:03,206 That was a big part of where his rage came from. 269 00:18:03,282 --> 00:18:06,334 He actually had a plan to go find her and kill her. 270 00:18:06,410 --> 00:18:08,285 He always felt like, if she had kept him, 271 00:18:08,362 --> 00:18:10,213 he would have never become a monster. 272 00:18:10,289 --> 00:18:12,381 ¶ ¶ 273 00:18:12,458 --> 00:18:14,458 He had amazing grades. He was very smart. 274 00:18:14,535 --> 00:18:17,336 He was tested early with a 138 IQ. 275 00:18:17,413 --> 00:18:20,306 But he was unmotivated and unchallenged. 276 00:18:20,383 --> 00:18:21,632 He loved to play with fire, 277 00:18:21,709 --> 00:18:23,968 and he did burn down a couple sheds. 278 00:18:24,044 --> 00:18:25,636 He was doing it to try to get 279 00:18:25,713 --> 00:18:28,481 his adoptive parents', you know, attention. 280 00:18:37,391 --> 00:18:39,775 - And she took a cigarette 281 00:18:39,852 --> 00:18:42,361 and just put it all over his body, 282 00:18:42,438 --> 00:18:44,497 in a way that seemed like torture. 283 00:18:55,009 --> 00:18:59,178 - Larry began to manifest his interest in torturing things 284 00:18:59,255 --> 00:19:01,755 by the time he was adolescent. 285 00:19:01,766 --> 00:19:04,175 One time he told me that he was upset. 286 00:19:04,185 --> 00:19:08,137 They had rabbits, and he went outside with a pair of pliers, 287 00:19:08,214 --> 00:19:12,525 and he removed the teeth of one of the rabbits with the pliers. 288 00:19:25,648 --> 00:19:27,072 - As a teenager, he would wander around the streets 289 00:19:27,149 --> 00:19:28,365 at night. 290 00:19:28,442 --> 00:19:29,533 But then it started to escalate, 291 00:19:29,610 --> 00:19:31,160 when he would move furniture around 292 00:19:31,237 --> 00:19:33,662 so people knew that someone had been in their house, 293 00:19:33,739 --> 00:19:36,540 just so people feel unsafe in their own homes. 294 00:19:36,617 --> 00:19:38,709 So you're seeing the early signs of sadism. 295 00:19:38,786 --> 00:19:41,629 - A serial sexual killer-- they're born predators. 296 00:19:41,705 --> 00:19:43,431 They hunt human beings. 297 00:19:43,507 --> 00:19:45,716 And so his practice-- 298 00:19:45,793 --> 00:19:47,885 following people, watching people, 299 00:19:47,962 --> 00:19:50,596 walking around his neighborhood late at night-- 300 00:19:50,673 --> 00:19:52,681 is a result of his psychopathy, 301 00:19:52,758 --> 00:19:55,184 which has a genetic link to it. 302 00:19:55,261 --> 00:19:59,063 When sexuality and violence becomes intertwined, 303 00:19:59,139 --> 00:20:02,691 now you have these compulsion and these urges to go out 304 00:20:02,768 --> 00:20:04,827 and kidnap people and torture them, 305 00:20:04,904 --> 00:20:07,705 that's a very, very deadly combination. 306 00:20:07,782 --> 00:20:13,419 ¶ ¶ 307 00:20:17,232 --> 00:20:19,959 [suspenseful music] 308 00:20:20,035 --> 00:20:22,294 ¶ ¶ 309 00:20:22,371 --> 00:20:24,338 - Lawrence Bittaker was very society awkward. 310 00:20:24,415 --> 00:20:27,091 He reports that he didn't have any friends growing up, 311 00:20:27,167 --> 00:20:29,843 but he was able to get a girlfriend in high school. 312 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,137 Mary Anne was a Catholic school girl-- 313 00:20:32,214 --> 00:20:33,739 Blonde hair, big blue eyes. 314 00:20:33,741 --> 00:20:36,684 If you look at the victims, they look very similar. 315 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:38,102 She also wore a cross, 316 00:20:38,178 --> 00:20:39,520 and he actually made some of the victims 317 00:20:39,596 --> 00:20:41,697 actually put on a cross during his crimes. 318 00:21:07,466 --> 00:21:09,174 Bittaker told me that he had recorded 319 00:21:09,251 --> 00:21:11,385 a make-out session with this girlfriend. 320 00:21:11,462 --> 00:21:12,961 I was really blown away, 321 00:21:13,039 --> 00:21:15,398 'cause I think this is where the paraphilic urges started. 322 00:21:24,784 --> 00:21:27,067 What's chilling is she does remember 323 00:21:27,078 --> 00:21:29,320 him taking her up to San Gabriel Mountains, 324 00:21:29,396 --> 00:21:32,072 and they would go and hang out and hike. 325 00:21:32,149 --> 00:21:33,907 I've always wondered if that's why he took 326 00:21:33,984 --> 00:21:36,410 the victims there--is because of this first girlfriend, 327 00:21:36,421 --> 00:21:37,911 his first rejection. 328 00:21:37,922 --> 00:21:41,882 ¶ ¶ 329 00:22:02,739 --> 00:22:04,688 - Bittaker had what's known 330 00:22:04,765 --> 00:22:08,275 as a polymorphous perverse personality. 331 00:22:08,352 --> 00:22:10,569 That means that he was able 332 00:22:10,580 --> 00:22:13,414 to commit any crime on the books 333 00:22:13,491 --> 00:22:15,240 just for his own pleasure. 334 00:22:15,317 --> 00:22:18,994 - His psychopathy was not something that he worried about 335 00:22:19,071 --> 00:22:22,289 or he fretted about or he was concerned about. 336 00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:24,458 - When Lawrence Bittaker was in juvie, 337 00:22:24,535 --> 00:22:26,210 they did a ton of evaluations, 338 00:22:26,286 --> 00:22:28,128 and they're seeing that he is violent 339 00:22:28,205 --> 00:22:30,214 with anger issues and deeply disturbed. 340 00:22:30,290 --> 00:22:32,558 There were warning signs from the beginning. 341 00:22:35,221 --> 00:22:36,845 [car horn honks] 342 00:22:36,922 --> 00:22:41,767 - In 1974, Bittaker was living in the Hollywood area. 343 00:22:41,844 --> 00:22:44,103 He went into a Ralph's market, 344 00:22:44,179 --> 00:22:47,656 and he stole a couple of steaks. 345 00:23:02,281 --> 00:23:04,906 - It was a miracle this guy survived. 346 00:23:08,495 --> 00:23:10,045 By him stabbing this clerk, 347 00:23:10,122 --> 00:23:11,839 it really changed the lives of everybody-- 348 00:23:11,915 --> 00:23:13,674 this fateful moment that sent him 349 00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:17,010 to California Men's Colony, CMC East. 350 00:23:17,087 --> 00:23:18,887 This is where Lawrence Bittaker 351 00:23:18,964 --> 00:23:21,348 meets Roy Norris. 352 00:23:21,425 --> 00:23:24,685 [camera shutter clicks, camera whirs] 353 00:23:24,761 --> 00:23:27,271 - Roy Norris was a rapist. 354 00:23:27,347 --> 00:23:29,148 He was a serial rapist. 355 00:23:29,158 --> 00:23:30,649 Who was worse? 356 00:23:30,726 --> 00:23:32,034 I don't think I could even say, 357 00:23:32,111 --> 00:23:34,445 'cause when they partnered up, they were both horrible. 358 00:23:34,521 --> 00:23:36,905 - I think he hated women. 359 00:23:36,982 --> 00:23:39,166 - He was the one who typically grabbed the grabs 360 00:23:39,243 --> 00:23:40,968 and subdued them. 361 00:23:40,970 --> 00:23:43,495 He was a much bigger guy. He was over 200 pounds. 362 00:23:43,572 --> 00:23:45,038 - He was a big oaf. 363 00:23:45,049 --> 00:23:47,458 His IQ--I have no idea what it was, 364 00:23:47,534 --> 00:23:50,794 but it couldn't be anywhere near Bittaker's IQ. 365 00:23:50,805 --> 00:23:54,965 - He wasn't a liar and an actor like Larry was. 366 00:23:55,042 --> 00:23:56,800 Like, Larry pulled it off. 367 00:23:56,811 --> 00:24:00,721 Norris-- you felt uncomfortable. 368 00:24:00,797 --> 00:24:02,931 - So he was definitely the muscle of the two, 369 00:24:03,008 --> 00:24:05,109 and Bittaker was the brains. 370 00:24:07,012 --> 00:24:09,396 - I prosecuted Roy Norris 371 00:24:09,473 --> 00:24:12,274 for rape in 1975. 372 00:24:12,351 --> 00:24:15,110 He was sentenced from three years to life 373 00:24:15,187 --> 00:24:17,362 in the California Men's Colony, 374 00:24:17,439 --> 00:24:19,531 East Facility, in San Luis Obispo, 375 00:24:19,608 --> 00:24:22,784 where he met Lawrence Bittaker, who was already there. 376 00:24:22,861 --> 00:24:25,963 ¶ ¶ 377 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:27,164 - How they met, actually, 378 00:24:27,241 --> 00:24:30,292 is they would make jewelry together. 379 00:24:30,369 --> 00:24:34,263 ¶ ¶ 380 00:24:52,015 --> 00:24:54,858 And they did tell an inmate named Richard Shoopman, 381 00:24:54,935 --> 00:24:57,069 who was in there for killing a young college girl. 382 00:24:57,145 --> 00:25:00,405 [camera shutter clicks, camera whirs] 383 00:25:00,416 --> 00:25:03,242 - Shoopman would write up their fantasies 384 00:25:03,252 --> 00:25:05,577 and sell them to other prisoners. 385 00:25:05,654 --> 00:25:07,713 - They talked about getting a cabin in the woods. 386 00:25:07,790 --> 00:25:09,673 They talked about getting a trailer. 387 00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:10,958 They even talked about a cave. 388 00:25:11,034 --> 00:25:13,001 - And they would fantasize 389 00:25:13,078 --> 00:25:16,630 about what they were gonna do when they got out. 390 00:25:16,707 --> 00:25:20,968 - It was Roy who also told me that part of their fantasies, 391 00:25:21,044 --> 00:25:23,971 as they plotted out what they were gonna do, 392 00:25:24,047 --> 00:25:26,848 was that they were going to kidnap a girl 393 00:25:26,925 --> 00:25:28,308 for every teen year. 394 00:25:28,385 --> 00:25:30,811 Once they got out, they would kidnap 13-year-old, 395 00:25:30,887 --> 00:25:32,896 14-year-old, 15-year-old... 396 00:25:32,973 --> 00:25:35,324 It was the perfect storm when they hooked up. 397 00:25:35,401 --> 00:25:37,785 ¶ ¶ 398 00:25:37,861 --> 00:25:39,611 - Back in the '70s, 399 00:25:39,688 --> 00:25:42,155 rape wasn't treated as seriously as it is nowadays. 400 00:25:42,166 --> 00:25:45,534 Another factor--both of them have antisocial personality, 401 00:25:45,611 --> 00:25:46,818 so they are conning 402 00:25:46,896 --> 00:25:48,787 the, you know, psychologist constantly 403 00:25:48,864 --> 00:25:50,664 and telling him, you know, they're fine, 404 00:25:50,666 --> 00:25:53,217 they're rehabilitated, they can go back out into society. 405 00:25:55,078 --> 00:25:57,087 So Bittaker got out of jail first, 406 00:25:57,164 --> 00:25:59,181 and he went to Los Angeles. 407 00:25:59,258 --> 00:26:02,551 And then he got a job as a skilled machinist in Burbank. 408 00:26:02,628 --> 00:26:07,014 Roy Norris gets out a couple months right after Bittaker. 409 00:26:07,090 --> 00:26:08,724 He actually wanted Norris to quit his job 410 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:10,025 to build a compound, 411 00:26:10,102 --> 00:26:12,227 and he was gonna financially take care of him. 412 00:26:12,304 --> 00:26:14,980 There was a very, like, teacher-student vibe to them. 413 00:26:15,057 --> 00:26:17,816 And I noticed, even with my relationship with Bittaker, 414 00:26:17,893 --> 00:26:19,276 it was a very student-teacher. 415 00:26:19,353 --> 00:26:21,328 It was like, he's Hannibal, I'm Clarice. 416 00:26:21,405 --> 00:26:23,405 He loved, like, that role and that dynamic, 417 00:26:23,482 --> 00:26:25,616 and loved that he was teaching me 418 00:26:25,692 --> 00:26:27,359 about, you know, the psychopathy. 419 00:26:27,361 --> 00:26:31,121 And I think that was the same dynamic with him and Norris. 420 00:26:31,198 --> 00:26:34,207 - They talked about Bittaker wanting a van 421 00:26:34,284 --> 00:26:37,720 and specifically a van with a sliding door, 422 00:26:37,796 --> 00:26:41,473 'cause that way they could get victims in the van quicker. 423 00:26:55,314 --> 00:26:58,899 - Bittaker buys, you know, the infamous silver van, 424 00:26:58,975 --> 00:27:01,410 which they named Murder Mack. 425 00:27:07,984 --> 00:27:10,535 They start personalizing this van. 426 00:27:10,612 --> 00:27:12,412 - They had police scanners. 427 00:27:12,489 --> 00:27:15,883 He put a fold-down bed in the back. 428 00:27:15,959 --> 00:27:17,376 - They put flooring down. 429 00:27:17,386 --> 00:27:19,294 They put a shag green carpet down. 430 00:27:19,371 --> 00:27:21,546 They put the makeshift bed with the toolbox-- 431 00:27:21,623 --> 00:27:23,632 the infamous toolbox-- underneath the bed 432 00:27:23,709 --> 00:27:25,092 to use for their torture. 433 00:27:25,168 --> 00:27:26,893 They also had the walkie-talkies, 434 00:27:26,970 --> 00:27:28,428 which they used to communicate back and forth. 435 00:27:28,505 --> 00:27:32,149 - And then they started going to The Strand 436 00:27:32,226 --> 00:27:33,558 in the South Bay area, 437 00:27:33,635 --> 00:27:36,103 taking photographs of young teenage girls 438 00:27:36,179 --> 00:27:40,407 in their skimpy bikinis and roller skating. 439 00:27:40,484 --> 00:27:42,776 [camera shutter clicks, camera winds] 440 00:27:42,853 --> 00:27:45,612 - They did a trip up to San Gabriel Mountains. 441 00:27:45,689 --> 00:27:47,280 Bittaker had wanted to show Norris 442 00:27:47,357 --> 00:27:48,907 all these, like, remote fire roads 443 00:27:48,984 --> 00:27:50,450 that they could use. 444 00:27:50,527 --> 00:27:52,911 - He thought that that would be a good place 445 00:27:52,988 --> 00:27:55,288 for them to take their victims, 446 00:27:55,365 --> 00:27:57,833 because nobody would hear them scream, 447 00:27:57,909 --> 00:28:00,127 and they could dump the bodies 448 00:28:00,203 --> 00:28:02,680 down the very steep ravines. 449 00:28:02,756 --> 00:28:05,090 - There's a picture of Bittaker bending down, 450 00:28:05,167 --> 00:28:07,342 breaking off the lock onto this fire road 451 00:28:07,419 --> 00:28:10,929 so they would have complete access to this road. 452 00:28:11,006 --> 00:28:13,941 - Bittaker took a photograph of Norris... 453 00:28:14,017 --> 00:28:15,442 [camera shutter clicks, camera whirs] 454 00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:19,312 On the fire road, pointing to the steep ravine. 455 00:28:19,389 --> 00:28:21,440 - Now, these look like innocent pictures, 456 00:28:21,516 --> 00:28:23,191 but when they were sent to Shoopman, 457 00:28:23,268 --> 00:28:24,735 they were a message to Shoopman 458 00:28:24,811 --> 00:28:26,653 that, "We are actually going through with this plan. 459 00:28:26,730 --> 00:28:29,197 We're doing it. We're bringing victims here." 460 00:28:29,274 --> 00:28:31,658 They have this tricked-out murder van, 461 00:28:31,735 --> 00:28:33,326 and then they have the mountains and the woods. 462 00:28:33,403 --> 00:28:36,204 I mean, it's very clear everything was planned. 463 00:28:36,281 --> 00:28:37,322 And that was Bittaker. 464 00:28:37,399 --> 00:28:39,091 He was a planner. He was a thinker. 465 00:28:39,168 --> 00:28:41,009 He thought every scenario through. 466 00:29:44,599 --> 00:29:51,413 ¶ ¶ 467 00:29:55,468 --> 00:29:58,662 [suspenseful music] 468 00:29:58,738 --> 00:30:01,665 [upbeat music] 469 00:30:01,741 --> 00:30:03,625 ¶ ¶ 470 00:30:03,702 --> 00:30:05,752 - Beach towns down in the South Bay 471 00:30:05,829 --> 00:30:07,504 were considered very safe. 472 00:30:07,581 --> 00:30:09,798 You know, they were a place where airline pilots 473 00:30:09,875 --> 00:30:11,258 and stews hung out, 474 00:30:11,268 --> 00:30:13,510 because it was close to LAX 475 00:30:13,587 --> 00:30:14,937 and only a couple of feet 476 00:30:15,013 --> 00:30:17,180 from some of the most beautiful beach area 477 00:30:17,257 --> 00:30:18,932 in all of California. 478 00:30:19,009 --> 00:30:22,310 A lot of young girls, a lot of muscle builders. 479 00:30:22,387 --> 00:30:23,979 It was a happening place, man. 480 00:30:24,055 --> 00:30:26,606 Everybody was going down to The Strand, 481 00:30:26,683 --> 00:30:28,191 because that's where the action was. 482 00:30:28,268 --> 00:30:30,610 Unfortunately, there was so much action, 483 00:30:30,687 --> 00:30:32,830 that's where Bittaker and Norris 484 00:30:32,906 --> 00:30:35,866 went to find their victims. 485 00:30:35,942 --> 00:30:37,534 [car horn honks] 486 00:30:37,611 --> 00:30:39,536 - Hitchhiking was part of the culture. 487 00:30:39,613 --> 00:30:41,538 I myself had tried it a couple times. 488 00:30:41,615 --> 00:30:44,040 My girlfriends wanted to always, you know, 489 00:30:44,117 --> 00:30:46,209 in the summer, hitchhike to the park 490 00:30:46,286 --> 00:30:48,345 that wasn't very far away. 491 00:30:48,422 --> 00:30:50,213 But I didn't know my sister was hitchhiking 492 00:30:50,224 --> 00:30:53,049 until right before she was abducted. 493 00:30:53,126 --> 00:30:55,978 [suspenseful music] 494 00:30:56,054 --> 00:30:58,230 ¶ ¶ 495 00:31:21,529 --> 00:31:25,916 - Andrea Hall was an 18-year-old girl from Ohio. 496 00:31:25,992 --> 00:31:27,542 She was spotted 497 00:31:27,619 --> 00:31:29,419 by Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris 498 00:31:29,496 --> 00:31:33,256 only two weeks after they had killed Cindy. 499 00:31:33,333 --> 00:31:36,760 Andrea had been at the beach with her sister and her kids. 500 00:31:36,836 --> 00:31:39,721 She had a boyfriend who lived out in Torrance. 501 00:31:39,798 --> 00:31:42,349 She wasn't too far from the boyfriend's place. 502 00:31:42,425 --> 00:31:44,818 So, to get there, she hitchhiked. 503 00:31:51,017 --> 00:31:53,777 - She was hitchhiking down Pacific Coast Highway. 504 00:31:53,853 --> 00:31:55,862 She got in the car with somebody else first, 505 00:31:55,939 --> 00:31:58,156 and followed that car, 506 00:31:58,233 --> 00:32:01,076 thinking that that person may not want to take her 507 00:32:01,152 --> 00:32:03,036 as far as she wanted to go. 508 00:32:03,113 --> 00:32:04,922 - They followed this car for miles 509 00:32:04,998 --> 00:32:06,748 until he had let her out. 510 00:32:06,825 --> 00:32:08,917 And then she started hitchhiking again, 511 00:32:08,994 --> 00:32:11,670 'cause she wasn't at the location she needed to be. 512 00:32:11,746 --> 00:32:14,381 And that's when Norris went and hid under the bed, 513 00:32:14,457 --> 00:32:17,059 the makeshift bed, and Bittaker came up, 514 00:32:17,135 --> 00:32:19,636 rolled down the window and said, "Hey, want a ride?" 515 00:32:19,713 --> 00:32:23,440 - She made it easy for these two perpetrators. 516 00:32:23,517 --> 00:32:27,227 All they had to do was pick her up, and they did. 517 00:32:27,237 --> 00:32:30,313 My sister looked in. She got in. 518 00:32:30,390 --> 00:32:32,649 Lawrence told her that there was a cooler 519 00:32:32,726 --> 00:32:35,610 in the back with cold drinks. 520 00:32:35,687 --> 00:32:38,571 So she got up and went back there. 521 00:32:38,582 --> 00:32:40,865 And Roy Norris came up 522 00:32:40,942 --> 00:32:44,327 and started accosting her. 523 00:32:44,404 --> 00:32:49,958 ¶ ¶ 524 00:32:50,035 --> 00:32:52,669 - She starts fighting, and she fought like a bull. 525 00:32:52,746 --> 00:32:54,671 And, I mean, she is punching him 526 00:32:54,748 --> 00:32:57,182 and just fighting for her life. 527 00:33:07,719 --> 00:33:10,020 He saw that she was overpowering Norris, 528 00:33:10,096 --> 00:33:11,688 so he slammed on the brakes, 529 00:33:11,765 --> 00:33:13,648 and they both tumbled backwards. 530 00:33:13,725 --> 00:33:16,693 - They had a big bloody fight, 531 00:33:16,770 --> 00:33:18,996 and Norris finally got control of her. 532 00:33:19,072 --> 00:33:22,624 ¶ ¶ 533 00:33:22,701 --> 00:33:24,659 They went to the mountain area again, 534 00:33:24,736 --> 00:33:26,494 to a place we now know it's called 535 00:33:26,571 --> 00:33:28,121 the Upper Monroe Truck Trail. 536 00:33:28,198 --> 00:33:29,873 They're fire roads. 537 00:33:29,949 --> 00:33:34,544 Bittaker had a sleeping bag, a blanket, walkie-talkie, 538 00:33:34,621 --> 00:33:37,139 so he could stay in contact with Norris, 539 00:33:37,215 --> 00:33:39,007 and a camera. 540 00:33:39,084 --> 00:33:41,268 [camera shutter clicks, camera whirs] 541 00:33:41,344 --> 00:33:42,802 It was like a Polaroid camera. 542 00:33:42,879 --> 00:33:44,396 It would shoot the picture out, 543 00:33:44,473 --> 00:33:47,315 so you didn't have to take it in to a nosy film developer 544 00:33:47,392 --> 00:33:51,528 who would see pictures of girls in great distress. 545 00:34:10,966 --> 00:34:14,084 - Bittaker had told me in some of my interviews with him, 546 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,711 he had used, you know, the pliers on her. 547 00:34:16,788 --> 00:34:18,155 When he took her up on that hill, 548 00:34:18,231 --> 00:34:21,299 he had her bound, and he took a camera. 549 00:34:21,310 --> 00:34:23,760 - He took one... 550 00:34:23,837 --> 00:34:26,888 just gut-wrenching photograph of her. 551 00:34:26,965 --> 00:34:29,474 [camera shutter clicks, camera whirs] 552 00:34:29,551 --> 00:34:31,768 - He had said, "I'm going to kill you," 553 00:34:31,845 --> 00:34:34,312 and snapped a picture of her face-- 554 00:34:34,389 --> 00:34:37,273 the look on her face when he said that. 555 00:34:37,350 --> 00:34:38,950 That is true sadism. 556 00:34:55,076 --> 00:34:59,596 - She was his first attempt with an ice pick in the ear, 557 00:34:59,673 --> 00:35:03,466 and that idea came from a movie we saw in prison. 558 00:35:03,543 --> 00:35:05,677 - When you puncture an eardrum, 559 00:35:05,753 --> 00:35:08,805 it's one of the most severe, severe types of pain. 560 00:35:08,882 --> 00:35:11,641 You would almost, like, go deaf instantly 561 00:35:11,718 --> 00:35:14,602 and just hear blood through your brain. 562 00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:16,688 But it wouldn't kill you instantly. 563 00:35:16,764 --> 00:35:19,032 It would be a very slow, painful death. 564 00:35:41,089 --> 00:35:43,339 - But then he manually strangled her 565 00:35:43,416 --> 00:35:45,767 until she was dead. 566 00:35:45,844 --> 00:35:49,437 - Andrea Hall's body was never found. 567 00:35:49,514 --> 00:35:51,731 ¶ ¶ 568 00:35:51,808 --> 00:35:54,985 - A small piece of myself died every day 569 00:35:55,061 --> 00:35:58,155 for 13 1/2 years. 570 00:35:58,231 --> 00:36:00,190 It was tough. 571 00:36:00,266 --> 00:36:03,735 ¶ ¶ 572 00:36:03,811 --> 00:36:07,822 - When Andrea went missing, the police had no leads. 573 00:36:07,899 --> 00:36:10,408 Her mother in Ohio was beside herself 574 00:36:10,419 --> 00:36:14,621 because she had talked to Andrea at least once a week. 575 00:36:14,697 --> 00:36:16,789 - So, when I did start digging into the case 576 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,375 and I saw that Cindy and Andrea have never been found 577 00:36:19,452 --> 00:36:20,710 in all these years, 578 00:36:20,787 --> 00:36:22,503 something told me to keep working. 579 00:36:22,580 --> 00:36:24,005 You know, could this be something 580 00:36:24,082 --> 00:36:26,049 that I could get from him, some information 581 00:36:26,125 --> 00:36:28,176 to try to get the locations of the two girls? 582 00:36:28,253 --> 00:36:30,845 When I talked to Andrea's sister for the first time-- 583 00:36:30,922 --> 00:36:34,474 Julie--she just said to me-- 584 00:36:34,550 --> 00:36:36,893 She was bawling, and I was bawling, 585 00:36:36,970 --> 00:36:40,396 and she's like, "We've never given up hope." 586 00:36:40,473 --> 00:36:43,491 [voice breaking] And just hearing her say, 587 00:36:43,568 --> 00:36:46,736 you know, "We've never given up hope"... 588 00:36:46,747 --> 00:36:50,156 yeah, it was a really emotional conversation... 589 00:36:50,233 --> 00:36:52,617 [sighs] To have. 590 00:36:52,694 --> 00:36:55,453 - You know, my mother said to my sister Pamela, 591 00:36:55,530 --> 00:36:58,164 whose son drowned in the ocean one day-- 592 00:36:58,241 --> 00:37:02,335 she said, "At least you had his body, Pammy," 593 00:37:02,346 --> 00:37:04,295 because we never had a body. 594 00:37:04,372 --> 00:37:06,673 We never found her. 595 00:37:06,749 --> 00:37:08,466 We've still been looking for her. 596 00:37:08,477 --> 00:37:10,385 It's almost 43 years. 597 00:37:10,461 --> 00:37:17,484 ¶ ¶ 598 00:37:21,455 --> 00:37:24,065 [suspenseful music] 599 00:37:24,142 --> 00:37:27,369 ¶ ¶ 600 00:37:27,445 --> 00:37:29,162 - When Bittaker was about 78, 601 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,164 he starts telling me, you know, 602 00:37:31,241 --> 00:37:33,491 he's starting to have emotions he never had before. 603 00:37:33,568 --> 00:37:35,877 He'll watch a commercial and start crying. 604 00:37:48,416 --> 00:37:49,882 He once said to me-- 605 00:37:49,959 --> 00:37:51,509 he goes, "Do you understand what it feels like 606 00:37:51,586 --> 00:37:54,429 "to actually put an ice pick through someone's ear 607 00:37:54,505 --> 00:37:56,273 and not feel anything?" 608 00:38:03,681 --> 00:38:05,907 Before, he felt like a void, 609 00:38:05,984 --> 00:38:07,909 and now he's feeling, like, 610 00:38:07,986 --> 00:38:10,403 a flood of emotion for the first time ever. 611 00:38:10,414 --> 00:38:12,080 He calls it a dam breaking. 612 00:38:26,412 --> 00:38:29,047 He's having a new experience, a new emotion, 613 00:38:29,123 --> 00:38:31,090 and what he called and wrote about-- 614 00:38:31,167 --> 00:38:33,810 he described as becoming fully human. 615 00:38:43,971 --> 00:38:46,022 - I find it very hard to believe that any one 616 00:38:46,099 --> 00:38:48,742 of those psychological professionals at San Quentin 617 00:38:48,818 --> 00:38:51,077 would have given him that diagnosis, 618 00:38:51,154 --> 00:38:53,446 that, "Once you were, but now you're not." 619 00:38:53,523 --> 00:38:55,698 I talked with him about his lack of empathy, 620 00:38:55,775 --> 00:38:58,951 and I recall one time he said he would find himself 621 00:38:59,028 --> 00:39:00,995 crying during soap operas. 622 00:39:01,072 --> 00:39:03,581 And I remember it was-- I couldn't control it. 623 00:39:03,658 --> 00:39:05,792 I started laughing and saying, 624 00:39:05,868 --> 00:39:08,294 "You have got to be kidding me. It's absurd. 625 00:39:08,371 --> 00:39:10,171 You know it's absurd, and I know it's absurd." 626 00:39:10,248 --> 00:39:12,298 And he starting laughing, too. 627 00:39:12,375 --> 00:39:14,592 When he engages in behavior with people 628 00:39:14,669 --> 00:39:17,929 where he's coming across as caring and concerned 629 00:39:18,005 --> 00:39:21,391 or seems to show a soft side of him, 630 00:39:21,467 --> 00:39:24,477 it's the FBI training in me that says, 631 00:39:24,488 --> 00:39:27,814 "Be very careful that this is not just another way 632 00:39:27,890 --> 00:39:30,358 to try to manipulate the situation." 633 00:39:30,435 --> 00:39:33,361 ¶ ¶ 634 00:39:33,438 --> 00:39:37,115 - My name's Tracee Whitney, and in 1979, 635 00:39:37,125 --> 00:39:40,410 I lived at the Scott's Motel next to Lawrence Bittaker. 636 00:39:40,486 --> 00:39:44,455 I saw him daily when I was at the hotel. 637 00:39:44,532 --> 00:39:48,251 The Scott's Motel was a very dingy, 638 00:39:48,327 --> 00:39:50,253 cheap hotel. 639 00:39:50,329 --> 00:39:53,005 Burbank Police knew that people that lived there 640 00:39:53,016 --> 00:39:54,632 were basically homeless. 641 00:39:54,643 --> 00:39:56,342 I was 18. 642 00:39:56,419 --> 00:39:59,512 A lot of younger people my age would party 643 00:39:59,589 --> 00:40:01,472 in each other's rooms. 644 00:40:01,549 --> 00:40:03,933 Larry would give us money. 645 00:40:04,010 --> 00:40:07,103 He would give us weed. He would give us beer. 646 00:40:07,180 --> 00:40:10,398 I think Larry wanted to be liked. 647 00:40:10,475 --> 00:40:12,358 It was as if Larry loved 648 00:40:12,435 --> 00:40:14,986 having a gang of girls around him, you know? 649 00:40:14,996 --> 00:40:17,497 Like, it made him somebody. 650 00:40:18,441 --> 00:40:21,033 - Larry chose to live in a rundown place 651 00:40:21,044 --> 00:40:23,202 over a much more expensive place that he could afford 652 00:40:23,279 --> 00:40:26,497 because it did give him access to young girls. 653 00:40:26,574 --> 00:40:28,115 It gave him access to people 654 00:40:28,117 --> 00:40:31,711 that he could manipulate and dominate and impress. 655 00:40:31,787 --> 00:40:34,797 ¶ ¶ 656 00:40:34,808 --> 00:40:37,216 - I found out I was pregnant. 657 00:40:37,293 --> 00:40:40,303 I attempted to make a phone call to my family 658 00:40:40,379 --> 00:40:44,223 to beg them to allow me to come home 659 00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:47,226 and live there while I figured out what I was gonna do, 660 00:40:47,303 --> 00:40:50,271 and they refused to do it, and they hung up. 661 00:40:50,348 --> 00:40:53,232 When I turned around, Larry was standing behind me 662 00:40:53,309 --> 00:40:55,151 and had heard the conversation, 663 00:40:55,228 --> 00:40:57,028 and I was extremely upset. 664 00:40:57,104 --> 00:40:59,238 And he said, "If you need something-- 665 00:40:59,315 --> 00:41:01,741 "if you need maternity clothes or a place to sleep, 666 00:41:01,817 --> 00:41:03,376 I'll pay for it." 667 00:41:03,453 --> 00:41:07,830 - Larry had a soft spot for young pregnant girls, 668 00:41:07,907 --> 00:41:10,341 because he was always the predator. 669 00:41:10,418 --> 00:41:13,336 - He was very nice to me, you know, 670 00:41:13,412 --> 00:41:17,465 and I get pretty upset when I say that... 671 00:41:17,542 --> 00:41:20,968 ¶ ¶ 672 00:41:21,045 --> 00:41:24,096 knowing what I know. 673 00:41:24,173 --> 00:41:28,100 But it's the truth. He was very kind to me. 674 00:41:28,177 --> 00:41:30,236 - You have to look at it through the lens 675 00:41:30,313 --> 00:41:35,107 of this was a very, very, very dangerous sexual predator 676 00:41:35,118 --> 00:41:38,110 who preyed upon young teenage girls, 677 00:41:38,121 --> 00:41:41,280 who dominated them, took advantage of them. 678 00:41:41,357 --> 00:41:44,375 And so, while he may be extending a kindness, 679 00:41:44,452 --> 00:41:46,410 there would have been ulterior motives. 680 00:41:46,487 --> 00:41:48,621 What was he getting back in return? 681 00:41:48,632 --> 00:41:53,292 I think it's very possible that Larry was grooming them. 682 00:41:53,369 --> 00:41:56,212 - He would drive me to the beach. 683 00:41:56,289 --> 00:41:59,257 He would drive me any place I wanted to go. 684 00:41:59,333 --> 00:42:01,509 So, we spent a lot of time in his... 685 00:42:01,586 --> 00:42:03,344 ¶ ¶ 686 00:42:03,421 --> 00:42:06,138 [sighs] 687 00:42:06,149 --> 00:42:09,350 [voice breaking] A lot of time alone in his van. 688 00:42:09,427 --> 00:42:11,727 ¶ ¶ 689 00:42:11,804 --> 00:42:16,199 I had no clue, no idea the things that he was doing. 690 00:42:17,652 --> 00:42:20,078 The last time I was with Larry, 691 00:42:20,154 --> 00:42:23,155 I was in the van with him alone, 692 00:42:23,166 --> 00:42:25,741 and we got in an argument about something, 693 00:42:25,818 --> 00:42:27,961 and I don't remember what it was. 694 00:42:29,405 --> 00:42:33,174 He pulled a gun out, and he said to me... 695 00:42:35,578 --> 00:42:38,513 "The only reason you're alive is 'cause you're pregnant." 696 00:42:40,916 --> 00:42:43,017 And... 697 00:42:44,629 --> 00:42:47,522 [sobbing softly] 698 00:42:52,136 --> 00:42:55,488 [sniffles, sighs] 699 00:42:57,183 --> 00:43:01,569 I remember jumping out of that van so fast. 700 00:43:01,646 --> 00:43:03,487 I don't even know how-- 701 00:43:03,498 --> 00:43:07,500 I don't know how he didn't shoot me, 702 00:43:07,577 --> 00:43:12,121 knowing what I know that he did to other girls. 703 00:43:12,198 --> 00:43:15,249 I don't--I'm really lucky to be alive. 704 00:43:15,326 --> 00:43:18,711 [sobs] 705 00:43:18,722 --> 00:43:20,162 And part of me feels guilty 706 00:43:20,164 --> 00:43:23,883 that I'm alive and those girts aren't. 707 00:43:23,959 --> 00:43:26,978 [sniffles, sighs] 708 00:43:27,055 --> 00:43:32,183 ¶ ¶ 709 00:43:32,193 --> 00:43:35,436 - In 2018, I had gotten pregnant. 710 00:43:35,513 --> 00:43:36,771 One week later, 711 00:43:36,847 --> 00:43:38,564 the place I was working went into bankruptcy, 712 00:43:38,641 --> 00:43:40,983 and now I was homeless, 713 00:43:41,060 --> 00:43:43,536 jobless, and pregnant and alone. 714 00:43:43,613 --> 00:43:46,405 It was a really, really dark time in my life. 715 00:43:46,482 --> 00:43:48,574 But Bittaker was the one calling me, 716 00:43:48,651 --> 00:43:50,242 saying, "How did the doctor's go?" 717 00:43:50,253 --> 00:43:54,672 [camera shutter clicks, camera whirs] 718 00:44:01,288 --> 00:44:02,755 For the first time ever, 719 00:44:02,766 --> 00:44:05,558 he actually agreed to be interviewed in person, 720 00:44:05,635 --> 00:44:08,552 so I started making plans to go meet him. 721 00:44:08,563 --> 00:44:10,262 My doctor almost had a heart attack 722 00:44:10,273 --> 00:44:12,565 when I told her I was gonna go to San Quentin 723 00:44:12,642 --> 00:44:15,726 to interview serial killers, 7 1/2 months pregnant. 724 00:44:15,803 --> 00:44:17,728 She literally just drops the pen, and she goes, 725 00:44:17,805 --> 00:44:19,772 "I don't even know how to put this in my notes." 726 00:44:19,849 --> 00:44:21,115 [laughs] 727 00:44:38,876 --> 00:44:41,377 The guys on death row actually really networked 728 00:44:41,454 --> 00:44:44,588 and helped me make it possible to actually come out there. 729 00:44:44,665 --> 00:44:47,883 They really came to my rescue, in a sense. 730 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:49,460 They found me a place to stay. 731 00:44:49,462 --> 00:44:51,470 One of the wives of the death row inmates 732 00:44:51,547 --> 00:44:53,931 actually, like, took me in. [chuckles] 733 00:44:54,008 --> 00:44:57,610 The goal with any interview is to get unknown information. 734 00:44:57,687 --> 00:44:59,770 So, of course, with having two girls 735 00:44:59,847 --> 00:45:01,614 that have never been found, 736 00:45:01,691 --> 00:45:04,158 you want to find their location for their families. 737 00:45:17,090 --> 00:45:19,582 - Detectives at Hermosa Beach 738 00:45:19,592 --> 00:45:22,677 wanted to have a rolling surveillance of Norris. 739 00:45:25,122 --> 00:45:27,298 - She was paid to make certain responses. 740 00:45:27,374 --> 00:45:29,559 She was having difficulty following those directions. 741 00:45:29,635 --> 00:45:32,720 - There was gasps in the courtroom. 742 00:45:32,797 --> 00:45:34,221 - He was dying. 743 00:45:34,298 --> 00:45:37,608 He was a ball of emotions and anxious and upset. 744 00:45:44,659 --> 00:45:48,536 ¶ ¶ 745 00:45:52,591 --> 00:45:55,117 [suspenseful music] 746 00:45:55,194 --> 00:46:01,123 ¶ ¶ 747 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,168 - When I first interviewed Lawrence Bittaker in person 748 00:46:04,245 --> 00:46:05,669 at San Quentin's death row, 749 00:46:05,746 --> 00:46:07,597 I was 7 1/2 months pregnant. 750 00:46:07,673 --> 00:46:09,715 I was, like, wobbling on death row. 751 00:46:09,792 --> 00:46:11,634 It was wild--even the correctional officers 752 00:46:11,710 --> 00:46:13,677 are looking at me, like, "What are you doing?" 753 00:46:13,754 --> 00:46:16,773 - When you're walking into death row at San Quentin, 754 00:46:16,849 --> 00:46:19,266 you're walking across the yard... 755 00:46:19,343 --> 00:46:21,644 people out there milling around. 756 00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:23,562 Prisons are not safe environments 757 00:46:23,573 --> 00:46:25,180 for the other inmates, 758 00:46:25,258 --> 00:46:28,359 for the correctional officers, and once you're inside, 759 00:46:28,435 --> 00:46:31,654 you don't have any control over what happens to you. 760 00:46:31,730 --> 00:46:34,657 - You're signing waivers that say if there's a riot, 761 00:46:34,733 --> 00:46:36,826 no one's gonna come for you or fight for you. 762 00:46:36,902 --> 00:46:40,120 It's not like a phone call like you see in the movies. 763 00:46:40,197 --> 00:46:43,290 It's a dog kennel-style cage, 764 00:46:43,367 --> 00:46:45,251 and they padlock you in. 765 00:46:45,327 --> 00:46:46,602 Two chairs and a little table, 766 00:46:46,679 --> 00:46:50,548 and you're sitting there just face-to-face. 767 00:46:50,624 --> 00:46:52,758 The correction officers brought Lawrence Bittaker down. 768 00:46:52,835 --> 00:46:55,052 And I remember, when he first saw me 769 00:46:55,129 --> 00:46:56,303 and, like, how big I was, 770 00:46:56,380 --> 00:46:58,856 like, his eyes bugged out of his head. 771 00:46:58,933 --> 00:47:00,507 He was so taken back. 772 00:47:00,585 --> 00:47:03,894 He was kind of, like, socially awkward, I remember. 773 00:47:03,971 --> 00:47:05,321 We sat in the cage, 774 00:47:05,398 --> 00:47:07,064 and he wouldn't even look at me in the eye 775 00:47:07,141 --> 00:47:08,908 for a good 2 1/2 hours. 776 00:47:08,985 --> 00:47:11,861 He was that shy when we first met. 777 00:47:11,937 --> 00:47:13,529 But something inside of me kept saying, 778 00:47:13,606 --> 00:47:14,864 "Keep going back to this guy." 779 00:47:14,940 --> 00:47:16,949 It was almost like an intuition. 780 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,669 There was something more to be gained with him. 781 00:47:21,214 --> 00:47:23,914 A couple months later, I went to the hospital. 782 00:47:23,925 --> 00:47:27,710 Bittaker was even on the phone with me when I was in labor. 783 00:47:27,786 --> 00:47:31,380 Bittaker had this love for my son. 784 00:47:31,457 --> 00:47:33,549 I think he almost sees himself 785 00:47:33,626 --> 00:47:37,636 as, like, a surrogate father for Romeo or grandfather. 786 00:47:37,713 --> 00:47:39,221 It was Romeo's first birthday party. 787 00:47:39,232 --> 00:47:40,790 I had sent him a picture. 788 00:47:40,866 --> 00:47:43,309 He would bring that picture of him with all the balloons 789 00:47:43,385 --> 00:47:46,312 and show it off to everybody on the row. 790 00:47:46,322 --> 00:47:49,106 I think he looked at Romeo and I 791 00:47:49,183 --> 00:47:50,616 as, like, his only family. 792 00:48:44,455 --> 00:48:48,540 He even put me down as his next of kin in the will. 793 00:48:48,617 --> 00:48:50,292 So, yeah, I would say 794 00:48:50,369 --> 00:48:54,639 I definitely did the deepest dive into Lawrence Bittaker. 795 00:48:56,375 --> 00:48:57,925 - My experience with psychopaths 796 00:48:58,002 --> 00:49:02,012 is that they don't bond with other people. 797 00:49:02,089 --> 00:49:06,350 The risks of thinking you're getting really close 798 00:49:06,361 --> 00:49:08,519 to someone who's like that 799 00:49:08,595 --> 00:49:10,646 and giving up a lot of personal information 800 00:49:10,723 --> 00:49:15,943 to someone that's incarcerated could be problematic. 801 00:49:16,020 --> 00:49:19,655 You can't be 100% sure whatsoever 802 00:49:19,732 --> 00:49:23,117 that that information won't compromise you. 803 00:49:23,193 --> 00:49:25,461 - It is a tightrope you're walking. 804 00:49:25,538 --> 00:49:27,129 But, you know, the more and more 805 00:49:27,131 --> 00:49:28,998 you're building that trust and that relationship, 806 00:49:29,074 --> 00:49:31,291 the more and more you can push that envelope. 807 00:49:31,368 --> 00:49:33,594 And you kind of see that develop 808 00:49:33,671 --> 00:49:35,846 with my interviews with Bittaker. 809 00:49:48,177 --> 00:49:51,103 He had made me say a couple promises to him, 810 00:49:51,180 --> 00:49:52,855 and one of the promises I made to him 811 00:49:52,931 --> 00:49:54,773 was I would always be a good mother. 812 00:49:54,850 --> 00:49:56,525 He used to say to me, "If I just had one good parent-- 813 00:49:56,602 --> 00:49:57,693 "if I had one good parent, 814 00:49:57,770 --> 00:50:00,446 I wouldn't have become this monster." 815 00:50:00,456 --> 00:50:05,284 ¶ ¶ 816 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,786 The third and fourth victims of the Toolbox Killers 817 00:50:07,863 --> 00:50:12,291 were Leah Lamp and Jackie Gilliam. 818 00:50:12,367 --> 00:50:15,377 - In 1979, I was 14 years old. 819 00:50:15,454 --> 00:50:18,255 I met Jackie when she moved into the apartment complex 820 00:50:18,332 --> 00:50:20,257 next door to ours, 821 00:50:20,334 --> 00:50:22,476 and we became fast friends. 822 00:50:22,553 --> 00:50:26,597 Jackie was beautiful. She was amazing. 823 00:50:26,673 --> 00:50:29,725 This smile is so genuine. 824 00:50:29,802 --> 00:50:31,477 Jackie stayed at my house a lot, 825 00:50:31,553 --> 00:50:34,772 and we used to spend a lot of time 826 00:50:34,848 --> 00:50:37,149 taking the bus to the Santa Monica Beach, 827 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,568 pretty much every day in the summer. 828 00:50:39,645 --> 00:50:41,070 One day she told me that she was gonna go 829 00:50:41,146 --> 00:50:43,614 to Redondo Beach to stay with her stepsister, 830 00:50:43,690 --> 00:50:46,658 and I never heard from her again. 831 00:50:46,735 --> 00:50:49,253 - Leah Lamp was 13. 832 00:50:49,330 --> 00:50:50,913 She was very bright. 833 00:50:50,989 --> 00:50:52,748 Had just finished junior high school, 834 00:50:52,825 --> 00:50:55,918 and she was ready to start high school in the fall. 835 00:50:55,994 --> 00:50:58,512 Her mother had a new wardrobe for her, 836 00:50:58,589 --> 00:51:00,506 and she was really looking forward to it. 837 00:51:00,516 --> 00:51:04,134 Jackie met Leah Lamp, and they had become friends. 838 00:51:04,211 --> 00:51:08,263 One day, Leah and Jackie decided to go to the beach. 839 00:51:08,340 --> 00:51:10,649 ¶ ¶ 840 00:51:23,689 --> 00:51:24,980 - Bittaker and Norris saw them 841 00:51:25,057 --> 00:51:27,500 and came up and asked them if they needed a ride. 842 00:51:43,801 --> 00:51:45,884 - When they got into the van, 843 00:51:45,961 --> 00:51:48,470 Norris and Bittaker offered them a joint, 844 00:51:48,547 --> 00:51:50,681 and they were sitting in the back of the van 845 00:51:50,757 --> 00:51:52,975 with Norris, smoking this joint. 846 00:51:53,051 --> 00:51:55,811 That is when Norris took a homemade sap. 847 00:51:55,888 --> 00:51:58,355 - It was full of BBs, really heavy. 848 00:51:58,432 --> 00:52:02,901 And he hit Leah in the head with it and knocked her out. 849 00:52:02,978 --> 00:52:05,195 - While Leah was down, he tried to grab Jackie. 850 00:52:05,272 --> 00:52:07,823 - At some point, Leah regained consciousness 851 00:52:07,900 --> 00:52:09,533 and tried to get out of the van. 852 00:52:09,610 --> 00:52:11,752 - It was on front of tennis courts, 853 00:52:11,829 --> 00:52:13,245 so people were playing tennis 854 00:52:13,322 --> 00:52:14,997 and actually stopped, looked over. 855 00:52:15,073 --> 00:52:17,758 Leah Lamp jumped out of the van, screaming. 856 00:52:17,835 --> 00:52:20,419 - Bittaker stopped the van, came around, 857 00:52:20,495 --> 00:52:23,380 and slugged Leah in the face as hard as he could, 858 00:52:23,391 --> 00:52:24,965 knocking her back. 859 00:52:25,042 --> 00:52:26,758 He turned to everybody and said, 860 00:52:26,835 --> 00:52:28,561 "She's having a bad LSD trip." 861 00:52:28,637 --> 00:52:35,693 ¶ ¶ 862 00:52:39,547 --> 00:52:42,274 [suspenseful music] 863 00:52:42,351 --> 00:52:44,151 ¶ ¶ 864 00:52:44,228 --> 00:52:46,111 - Leah Lamp was 13 years old, 865 00:52:46,188 --> 00:52:48,405 and Jackie Gilliam was 15 years old. 866 00:52:48,482 --> 00:52:51,542 When they got into the van, Norris took a homemade sap, 867 00:52:51,619 --> 00:52:54,286 hit Leah Lamp over the back of the head with it. 868 00:52:54,297 --> 00:52:57,247 While Leah was down, he then tried to grab Jackie. 869 00:52:57,324 --> 00:52:59,750 - At some point, Leah regained consciousness 870 00:52:59,826 --> 00:53:01,585 and tried to get out of the van. 871 00:53:01,662 --> 00:53:04,713 - Leah Lamp actually jumped out of the van, screaming. 872 00:53:04,790 --> 00:53:06,673 It was in front of tennis courts. 873 00:53:06,750 --> 00:53:08,175 So people were playing tennis 874 00:53:08,186 --> 00:53:10,135 and actually stopped, looked over. 875 00:53:10,212 --> 00:53:12,387 - Bittaker stopped the van, came around, 876 00:53:12,464 --> 00:53:15,015 and slugged Leah in the face as hard as he could, 877 00:53:15,092 --> 00:53:16,934 knocking her back. 878 00:53:17,010 --> 00:53:18,635 - He turned to everybody and said, 879 00:53:18,713 --> 00:53:22,189 "She's having a bad LSD trip. I'm just taking her home." 880 00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,442 ¶ ¶ 881 00:53:25,519 --> 00:53:28,329 They took the girls up to San Gabriel Mountain. 882 00:53:28,405 --> 00:53:31,990 ¶ ¶ 883 00:53:32,067 --> 00:53:34,534 - Bittaker told Jackie that he was gonna rape her 884 00:53:34,611 --> 00:53:38,330 and she better pretend that she was enjoying it. 885 00:53:38,407 --> 00:53:40,841 - Bittaker finds out that she is a virgin, 886 00:53:40,918 --> 00:53:45,128 and he wants to audio-record the rape of a virgin. 887 00:53:45,205 --> 00:53:47,631 So he took the audio recorder, 888 00:53:47,708 --> 00:53:51,352 and when he was raping Jackie, she was screaming. 889 00:54:13,233 --> 00:54:15,367 That is not what he admitted later in person. 890 00:54:15,378 --> 00:54:17,878 You know, these girls were scared out of their mind. 891 00:54:17,955 --> 00:54:19,955 Sadists are getting off on that fear. 892 00:54:20,032 --> 00:54:21,999 That's what they love. That's what they want to see. 893 00:54:22,075 --> 00:54:23,375 - When Bittaker would talk 894 00:54:23,452 --> 00:54:26,178 about the girls went willingly with him, 895 00:54:26,255 --> 00:54:28,922 he's trying to minimize any responsibility 896 00:54:28,999 --> 00:54:32,050 he has for these murders. 897 00:54:32,127 --> 00:54:34,928 - There was a ton of photographs taken 898 00:54:35,005 --> 00:54:37,481 of Jackie Gilliam-- sexual acts with Bittaker. 899 00:54:54,658 --> 00:54:57,534 What's really haunting about the pictures 900 00:54:57,611 --> 00:54:59,870 with Jackie Gilliam is, 901 00:54:59,946 --> 00:55:01,213 you know, it's very clear 902 00:55:01,290 --> 00:55:03,081 she has a black eye in the pictures. 903 00:55:03,158 --> 00:55:05,250 Her ankles are bound. Her wrists are bound. 904 00:55:05,327 --> 00:55:07,711 She's naked in the back of a van. 905 00:55:07,788 --> 00:55:10,714 And she has a smile on her face. 906 00:55:10,791 --> 00:55:13,717 Obviously Bittaker forced her to smile 907 00:55:13,794 --> 00:55:16,887 during these pictures that he took of her. 908 00:55:16,963 --> 00:55:20,432 - He showed some of these photographs to other people, 909 00:55:20,509 --> 00:55:22,476 so he had no sense of what's appropriate 910 00:55:22,552 --> 00:55:23,685 and what's not appropriate. 911 00:55:23,762 --> 00:55:25,187 So he used it to masturbate, 912 00:55:25,263 --> 00:55:28,315 and then he used it thinking he was impressing people. 913 00:55:28,392 --> 00:55:32,736 ¶ ¶ 914 00:55:32,813 --> 00:55:34,821 - Bittaker decides, "Well, we don't have 915 00:55:34,898 --> 00:55:36,248 "to go to work tomorrow, 916 00:55:36,325 --> 00:55:38,784 so let's sleep with the girls overnight." 917 00:55:38,860 --> 00:55:41,503 - They slept in the van, and they took shifts sleeping 918 00:55:41,580 --> 00:55:43,421 and watching the girls. 919 00:55:43,423 --> 00:55:47,709 - Bittaker was in the van. Norris stood guard. 920 00:55:47,786 --> 00:55:50,754 - Bittaker and Roy Norris kept them the longest. 921 00:55:50,831 --> 00:55:52,514 It was somewhere around 48 hours. 922 00:56:13,895 --> 00:56:16,571 - Eventually Bittaker decided 923 00:56:16,648 --> 00:56:19,282 that he had had enough, and so... 924 00:56:19,293 --> 00:56:23,161 he cradled Jackie's head in one hand, 925 00:56:23,238 --> 00:56:25,297 took the ice pick with the other hand, 926 00:56:25,374 --> 00:56:28,667 and drove it into her ear canal, 927 00:56:28,743 --> 00:56:30,502 into the brain. 928 00:56:30,513 --> 00:56:33,338 Went to take it out, but the handle came off. 929 00:56:33,415 --> 00:56:35,340 - When Jackie's skull was found, 930 00:56:35,417 --> 00:56:39,019 the ice pick was embedded into the skull. 931 00:56:39,096 --> 00:56:42,189 ¶ ¶ 932 00:56:56,271 --> 00:56:59,197 - And then they got the girls' bodies 933 00:56:59,274 --> 00:57:01,116 much the way they did with Cindy, 934 00:57:01,193 --> 00:57:03,952 and they tossed them as far as they could 935 00:57:04,029 --> 00:57:07,339 down this really steep ravine. 936 00:57:08,459 --> 00:57:11,793 - Jackie Gilliam and Leah Lamp were the only two victims 937 00:57:11,870 --> 00:57:15,130 that were found up on San Gabriel Mountain. 938 00:57:15,141 --> 00:57:18,884 It was just partial remains of their bones were recovered. 939 00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,261 ¶ ¶ 940 00:57:21,338 --> 00:57:23,722 - [voice breaking] They told me she was tortured. 941 00:57:23,798 --> 00:57:25,223 [sniffles] 942 00:57:25,300 --> 00:57:28,101 They told me there was an ice pick stuck in her ear. 943 00:57:28,178 --> 00:57:30,571 ¶ ¶ 944 00:57:30,647 --> 00:57:34,232 [sniffles] 945 00:57:34,309 --> 00:57:37,077 It wasn't a pretty picture, the things they said. 946 00:57:37,154 --> 00:57:39,571 ¶ ¶ 947 00:57:39,582 --> 00:57:41,490 - It's just devastating. 948 00:57:41,566 --> 00:57:43,241 I remember one day, 949 00:57:43,318 --> 00:57:46,036 Leah Lamp's mother was in my office. 950 00:57:46,112 --> 00:57:47,537 Her name was Myrna Carlisle. 951 00:57:47,614 --> 00:57:50,248 And I said, "Myrna, you don't look so good. 952 00:57:50,325 --> 00:57:52,167 Have you been sleeping all right?" 953 00:57:52,244 --> 00:57:54,711 She said, "I don't sleep. 954 00:57:54,788 --> 00:57:57,172 "I have two eight-hour jobs, 955 00:57:57,249 --> 00:57:59,224 "one in the daytime and one at night, 956 00:57:59,301 --> 00:58:01,760 "because I can't go to sleep, because if I sleep, 957 00:58:01,836 --> 00:58:06,139 I have nightmares about how my daughter was murdered." 958 00:58:06,216 --> 00:58:09,392 And, oh, my gosh. 959 00:58:09,469 --> 00:58:11,111 - I don't think at that age I understood 960 00:58:11,188 --> 00:58:13,405 really what was going on 961 00:58:13,482 --> 00:58:17,275 until the detectives started coming to my house. 962 00:58:17,352 --> 00:58:19,236 It was horrible hearing things like that 963 00:58:19,246 --> 00:58:21,821 about one of my best friends. 964 00:58:21,898 --> 00:58:25,033 Jackie didn't deserve that. 965 00:58:25,110 --> 00:58:26,743 - Both Bittaker and Norris 966 00:58:26,820 --> 00:58:28,703 knew that the police had nothing on them 967 00:58:28,780 --> 00:58:31,122 and that they were not being looked for. 968 00:58:31,133 --> 00:58:32,757 They started to feel invincible, 969 00:58:32,759 --> 00:58:36,002 and they started getting bolder and bolder. 970 00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:38,964 - October 31, 1979-- 971 00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:41,341 Bittaker and Norris were out looking for victims. 972 00:58:41,418 --> 00:58:43,260 It was kind of late at night. 973 00:58:43,336 --> 00:58:44,761 - They were away from The Strand. 974 00:58:44,838 --> 00:58:46,179 They were out in the Valley, 975 00:58:46,256 --> 00:58:49,474 which was a deviation from their normal pattern. 976 00:58:49,551 --> 00:58:51,851 Shirley Lynette Ledford-- 977 00:58:51,928 --> 00:58:53,311 just a young girl 978 00:58:53,388 --> 00:58:56,448 in the wrong place at the wrong time. 979 00:58:56,525 --> 00:58:59,359 - She was a 16-year-old girl who lived in Burbank. 980 00:58:59,436 --> 00:59:02,821 - She had a boyfriend. Had a lot of friends. 981 00:59:02,897 --> 00:59:04,447 - She was a wonderful person. 982 00:59:04,524 --> 00:59:08,326 She just thought only the best of people. 983 00:59:08,403 --> 00:59:10,453 - Lynette had been at a Halloween party. 984 00:59:10,530 --> 00:59:12,330 - All the friends I've talked to 985 00:59:12,341 --> 00:59:14,082 said they had a great time at the party. 986 00:59:14,159 --> 00:59:15,917 She was happy. 987 00:59:15,994 --> 00:59:18,670 - She was hitchhiking home. 988 00:59:18,681 --> 00:59:21,506 - Bittaker and Norris spotted her. 989 00:59:21,583 --> 00:59:24,175 - We picked her up north of Burbank, 990 00:59:24,252 --> 00:59:25,510 and she jumped right in. 991 00:59:25,587 --> 00:59:28,355 I mean, she wanted a ride somewhere. 992 00:59:30,050 --> 00:59:33,143 Bittaker grabbed her and threw her in the back. 993 00:59:33,219 --> 00:59:34,811 He and I both struggled with her. 994 00:59:34,888 --> 00:59:38,156 You know, he pulled out a knife. 995 00:59:38,233 --> 00:59:40,650 - She grabbed the knife blade 996 00:59:40,727 --> 00:59:44,571 and cut her finger pretty seriously. 997 00:59:44,648 --> 00:59:48,742 ¶ ¶ 998 00:59:48,818 --> 00:59:51,587 - If you look at Lynette Ledford... 999 00:59:51,663 --> 00:59:56,124 ¶ ¶ 1000 00:59:56,135 --> 00:59:58,126 It's showing this progression of sadism 1001 00:59:58,137 --> 01:00:00,462 and how much worse they are getting 1002 01:00:00,538 --> 01:00:02,514 with each and every murder. 1003 01:00:02,591 --> 01:00:09,479 ¶ ¶ 1004 01:00:15,786 --> 01:00:18,271 [suspenseful music] 1005 01:00:18,348 --> 01:00:22,034 ¶ ¶ 1006 01:00:22,110 --> 01:00:24,152 - Shirley Lynette Ledford-- 1007 01:00:24,229 --> 01:00:27,581 just a young girl in the wrong place and the wrong time. 1008 01:00:48,503 --> 01:00:50,845 - Bittaker grabbed Lynette 1009 01:00:50,922 --> 01:00:53,515 and threw her into the back of the van. 1010 01:00:53,591 --> 01:00:55,225 Bittaker had a knife. 1011 01:00:55,301 --> 01:00:57,944 She grabbed the knife blade 1012 01:00:58,021 --> 01:01:00,438 and cut her finger pretty seriously. 1013 01:01:00,515 --> 01:01:04,734 ¶ ¶ 1014 01:01:04,811 --> 01:01:08,530 - They were able to get her bound in the back of the van. 1015 01:01:08,606 --> 01:01:10,281 They didn't bring her to the mountains. 1016 01:01:10,292 --> 01:01:13,159 They brought her to, like, a gravel dirt path, 1017 01:01:13,236 --> 01:01:15,745 somewhere isolated but still in Burbank. 1018 01:01:15,822 --> 01:01:20,384 That's where they proceeded to torture and rape her. 1019 01:01:21,786 --> 01:01:24,546 During the time of these rape and torture, 1020 01:01:24,622 --> 01:01:27,549 Bittaker and Norris are making her play along 1021 01:01:27,625 --> 01:01:29,643 that she likes it. 1022 01:01:49,647 --> 01:01:51,957 - Bittaker wasn't after loving porn, 1023 01:01:52,033 --> 01:01:55,452 and I'm not even sure what that phrase means. 1024 01:01:55,462 --> 01:01:57,036 This tape was gonna be used 1025 01:01:57,113 --> 01:02:00,039 for his own sexual gratification 1026 01:02:00,116 --> 01:02:01,583 after the attack had ended. 1027 01:02:01,659 --> 01:02:03,918 Bittaker would want to listen to it again 1028 01:02:03,995 --> 01:02:06,847 as he thought about what he had done to his victims. 1029 01:02:18,676 --> 01:02:20,810 - She was beaten around the chest, 1030 01:02:20,887 --> 01:02:21,862 around the face. 1031 01:02:21,938 --> 01:02:24,397 - Bittaker raped her and tortured her 1032 01:02:24,474 --> 01:02:26,658 with pliers and screwdriver. 1033 01:02:37,946 --> 01:02:41,206 He and Norris then traded spots. 1034 01:02:41,282 --> 01:02:43,166 Norris, to get her to scream, 1035 01:02:43,243 --> 01:02:45,594 hit her on the elbow with a sledgehammer. 1036 01:03:00,885 --> 01:03:03,144 - They wanted to capture the girl's scream, 1037 01:03:03,221 --> 01:03:05,030 and the girls' screams is what got them off. 1038 01:03:05,106 --> 01:03:07,732 So, you know, if she wasn't screaming 1039 01:03:07,809 --> 01:03:09,984 as loud enough as they wanted, 1040 01:03:10,061 --> 01:03:12,370 the torture kept getting worse and worse. 1041 01:03:35,136 --> 01:03:39,305 - When Larry talks about it being spontaneous, 1042 01:03:39,382 --> 01:03:42,559 it's an effort to take away the criminality from it. 1043 01:03:42,635 --> 01:03:47,522 And yet, they have a van that they purposely soundproofed. 1044 01:03:47,599 --> 01:03:50,859 They engaged in predatory behavior. 1045 01:03:50,935 --> 01:03:53,361 - Roy Norris took a coat hanger 1046 01:03:53,438 --> 01:03:57,240 and wrapped it around her neck and used pliers to twist it. 1047 01:03:57,251 --> 01:03:58,750 When they found her body 1048 01:03:58,827 --> 01:04:01,703 and took this metal coat hanger off of her neck, 1049 01:04:01,779 --> 01:04:03,788 it was the size of a silver dollar. 1050 01:04:03,865 --> 01:04:06,550 That's how much he had twisted it around her neck. 1051 01:04:08,494 --> 01:04:10,545 - It was, like, getting late, 1052 01:04:10,622 --> 01:04:12,472 real late in the early morning. 1053 01:04:12,549 --> 01:04:14,465 I had to be back to work at 7:30. 1054 01:04:14,542 --> 01:04:16,759 I had a long way to drive. 1055 01:04:16,836 --> 01:04:20,555 We finally just decided that we'd just dump her off, 1056 01:04:20,632 --> 01:04:23,141 you know, probably on somebody's lawn, 1057 01:04:23,217 --> 01:04:24,767 more than anything else, 1058 01:04:24,844 --> 01:04:26,862 to see what reaction we would get in the papers, 1059 01:04:26,938 --> 01:04:30,106 'cause he wanted to know how society would react to it, 1060 01:04:30,183 --> 01:04:31,232 I guess. 1061 01:04:31,309 --> 01:04:36,738 ¶ ¶ 1062 01:04:36,748 --> 01:04:40,992 - The next day, the woman's property who it was on, 1063 01:04:41,003 --> 01:04:44,203 she actually thought it was a mannequin from Halloween. 1064 01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:48,133 Lynette was discarded there for the purpose 1065 01:04:48,209 --> 01:04:51,377 of messing with the cops and the press. 1066 01:04:51,454 --> 01:04:54,839 They wanted to get a reaction from everybody. 1067 01:04:54,916 --> 01:04:57,517 There was a lot more girls they were already stalking 1068 01:04:57,594 --> 01:04:59,636 and planning to attack at this point. 1069 01:04:59,712 --> 01:05:01,521 One was an airline stewardess, 1070 01:05:01,598 --> 01:05:05,350 and one was a 13-year-old girl in a residential neighborhood. 1071 01:05:05,426 --> 01:05:08,770 - I believe that Roy and Larry would have continued 1072 01:05:08,780 --> 01:05:13,316 to kidnap, assault, and torture young girls 1073 01:05:13,393 --> 01:05:16,319 until they got caught. 1074 01:05:16,396 --> 01:05:18,529 They would not have stopped. 1075 01:05:18,606 --> 01:05:20,540 ¶ ¶ 1076 01:05:20,617 --> 01:05:22,116 - When Roy was in jail, 1077 01:05:22,193 --> 01:05:24,953 he became friends with a guy named Joe Jackson. 1078 01:05:25,029 --> 01:05:29,874 One day, Roy tells Jackson that he has been kidnapping, 1079 01:05:29,951 --> 01:05:31,793 raping, and murdering girls 1080 01:05:31,869 --> 01:05:34,504 all over the South Bay with Lawrence Bittaker. 1081 01:05:34,580 --> 01:05:35,839 - Told me that he killed them 1082 01:05:35,915 --> 01:05:37,799 because this way he could sleep at night 1083 01:05:37,875 --> 01:05:40,969 and not have to worry about being identified. 1084 01:05:41,045 --> 01:05:44,856 - It disturbed, you know, Jackson so much, so deeply 1085 01:05:44,933 --> 01:05:48,652 that even a serial rapist himself went to the cops. 1086 01:05:49,971 --> 01:05:52,146 - Detectives at Hermosa Beach, 1087 01:05:52,223 --> 01:05:55,149 Paul Bynum and his partner, Tom Cray, 1088 01:05:55,226 --> 01:05:58,569 got really interested in these guys. 1089 01:05:58,646 --> 01:06:00,279 Bynum started thinking more about it 1090 01:06:00,356 --> 01:06:03,491 and said, "You know, this guy isn't smart enough 1091 01:06:03,568 --> 01:06:05,351 to cook up these facts." 1092 01:06:05,353 --> 01:06:08,037 And they wanted to have a rolling surveillance 1093 01:06:08,114 --> 01:06:10,340 of Norris. 1094 01:06:10,417 --> 01:06:11,708 They followed Norris. 1095 01:06:11,784 --> 01:06:13,960 Norris stopped at a drugstore, 1096 01:06:14,037 --> 01:06:18,715 and he left a shopping bag in the front seat, open. 1097 01:06:18,791 --> 01:06:20,641 Bynum looked in 1098 01:06:20,719 --> 01:06:24,095 and saw that the shopping bag was full of marijuana. 1099 01:06:24,172 --> 01:06:25,704 [chuckles] 1100 01:06:25,706 --> 01:06:29,017 So the police came up and stuck a gun in his ear, 1101 01:06:29,093 --> 01:06:32,562 said, "I'm putting you under arrest for parole violation," 1102 01:06:32,638 --> 01:06:36,524 and that meant that they could search Norris' residence. 1103 01:06:36,601 --> 01:06:40,361 And, boy, did they find a lot in Norris' residence. 1104 01:06:40,372 --> 01:06:44,032 ¶ ¶ 1105 01:06:44,108 --> 01:06:48,244 They found about 500 photographs of young women 1106 01:06:48,321 --> 01:06:51,372 taken in supermarket parking lots, 1107 01:06:51,383 --> 01:06:55,460 women's gyms, girls walking home from high school. 1108 01:06:55,536 --> 01:06:57,336 - Every one of these photographs 1109 01:06:57,413 --> 01:06:59,005 represents a potential victim. 1110 01:06:59,082 --> 01:07:01,424 - They also found the photograph 1111 01:07:01,501 --> 01:07:04,761 of the girl who was nude from the waist up, 1112 01:07:04,837 --> 01:07:06,888 with her hands folded behind her head, 1113 01:07:06,964 --> 01:07:10,433 who we now know is Jackie Gilliam. 1114 01:07:10,444 --> 01:07:13,227 ¶ ¶ 1115 01:07:13,304 --> 01:07:16,731 While they were there, Bittaker called and said, 1116 01:07:16,808 --> 01:07:18,158 "Well, where's Norris?" 1117 01:07:18,234 --> 01:07:19,776 And somebody said, 1118 01:07:19,852 --> 01:07:23,154 "Oh, well, he's up on the roof fixing his antenna." 1119 01:07:23,231 --> 01:07:25,615 Well, Bittaker thought that there was something fishy, 1120 01:07:25,691 --> 01:07:28,743 so he hurriedly cleaned out his van. 1121 01:07:28,820 --> 01:07:30,787 - The photographs, the tapes-- 1122 01:07:30,863 --> 01:07:32,672 he does an entire sweep of this van. 1123 01:07:32,749 --> 01:07:34,049 He got rid of everything. 1124 01:07:42,166 --> 01:07:45,259 When they were doing a search at Norris' duplex, 1125 01:07:45,336 --> 01:07:48,387 they found a little card that said "the Scott's Motel," 1126 01:07:48,464 --> 01:07:49,814 with Bittaker's name on it. 1127 01:07:49,891 --> 01:07:52,391 So they sent over the Burbank PD that night. 1128 01:07:52,468 --> 01:07:54,819 They kicked in his door and his window. 1129 01:07:54,896 --> 01:07:57,438 He was in the shower when they arrested him. 1130 01:07:57,515 --> 01:08:00,608 ¶ ¶ 1131 01:08:00,685 --> 01:08:02,068 - The Sheriff's Department 1132 01:08:02,145 --> 01:08:04,153 identified Roy Norris and Lawrence Bittaker... 1133 01:08:04,230 --> 01:08:07,082 - Raping and murdering five teenage girls. 1134 01:08:07,158 --> 01:08:09,534 - The evil that these guys caused, 1135 01:08:09,610 --> 01:08:12,787 it really captured the fear of the city of Los Angeles. 1136 01:08:12,864 --> 01:08:14,956 - Teenagers brutally attacked. 1137 01:08:14,966 --> 01:08:16,507 - Just a lot more careful about where I go. 1138 01:08:16,584 --> 01:08:18,459 - I'm afraid to be walking down the street. 1139 01:08:18,536 --> 01:08:21,754 - I got a call that Bynum and Cray had a case 1140 01:08:21,831 --> 01:08:23,965 that they wanted me to review, 1141 01:08:24,041 --> 01:08:26,801 and I saw the name Roy Norris, and I thought, 1142 01:08:26,878 --> 01:08:29,887 "Wait, but he got sent to prison, 1143 01:08:29,898 --> 01:08:31,206 "three years to life. 1144 01:08:31,208 --> 01:08:33,149 That can't be the same one." 1145 01:08:33,226 --> 01:08:36,394 - One of the suspects, 32-year-old Roy Lewis Norris, 1146 01:08:36,470 --> 01:08:39,355 has implicated Lawrence Simon Bittaker. 1147 01:08:39,432 --> 01:08:41,315 - It was kind of like pulling teeth, 1148 01:08:41,392 --> 01:08:44,235 but Norris eventually signed an agreement 1149 01:08:44,312 --> 01:08:48,156 that he could plead guilty to all of the murders, 1150 01:08:48,232 --> 01:08:51,742 and he would get a sentence of 45 years to life, 1151 01:08:51,819 --> 01:08:56,247 and he would have to lead us to the bodies of the victims. 1152 01:08:56,324 --> 01:08:58,708 Norris, of course, was the one leading the searches, 1153 01:08:58,784 --> 01:09:03,138 because he knew, supposedly, where the bodies were. 1154 01:09:03,214 --> 01:09:06,799 Searches in January didn't find anything. 1155 01:09:06,876 --> 01:09:09,427 Went searching on the 8th of February. 1156 01:09:09,503 --> 01:09:11,679 Didn't find anything. 1157 01:09:11,756 --> 01:09:14,015 And then on the 9th, with the help 1158 01:09:14,091 --> 01:09:16,601 of the Sierra Madre Search and Rescue Team, 1159 01:09:16,677 --> 01:09:21,105 we climbed down this incredibly steep ravine, 1160 01:09:21,182 --> 01:09:24,150 about 300 feet down. 1161 01:09:24,227 --> 01:09:28,413 That's where the remains of Jackie and Leah were found. 1162 01:09:28,489 --> 01:09:30,740 [somber music] 1163 01:09:30,816 --> 01:09:32,617 - It was partial skeletal remains, 1164 01:09:32,627 --> 01:09:36,287 only, you know, a few months after they had been killed. 1165 01:09:36,298 --> 01:09:38,748 Jackie Gilliam had the ice pick 1166 01:09:38,824 --> 01:09:40,625 embedded in the skull. 1167 01:09:40,701 --> 01:09:42,210 - Bittaker was not that cooperative. 1168 01:09:42,286 --> 01:09:45,213 He said he wanted to talk. He waived his rights. 1169 01:09:45,289 --> 01:09:48,466 And he just said, "You ain't got sh--." 1170 01:09:48,542 --> 01:09:51,677 - Bittaker stripped this entire van clean, 1171 01:09:51,754 --> 01:09:54,847 but he had missed one thing... 1172 01:09:54,924 --> 01:09:58,100 the Ledford tape in the cassette player. 1173 01:09:58,177 --> 01:10:00,102 - It was like something that none of us 1174 01:10:00,179 --> 01:10:01,771 had ever heard before. 1175 01:10:01,847 --> 01:10:04,482 I mean, it was the tape recording 1176 01:10:04,558 --> 01:10:06,442 of an actual murder. 1177 01:10:06,519 --> 01:10:09,403 [suspenseful music] 1178 01:10:09,480 --> 01:10:10,914 ¶ ¶ 1179 01:10:14,801 --> 01:10:17,495 [suspenseful music] 1180 01:10:17,571 --> 01:10:20,748 ¶ ¶ 1181 01:10:20,825 --> 01:10:22,133 - The Sheriff's Department 1182 01:10:22,210 --> 01:10:24,460 identified Roy Norris and Lawrence Bittaker 1183 01:10:24,537 --> 01:10:28,005 as the main suspects in five local rape-murders. 1184 01:10:28,016 --> 01:10:29,799 - The jury of seven women and five men 1185 01:10:29,875 --> 01:10:33,010 is expected to get the case on Wednesday. 1186 01:10:33,087 --> 01:10:34,887 - The Bittaker trial was the first case 1187 01:10:34,964 --> 01:10:36,305 in California history 1188 01:10:36,382 --> 01:10:38,933 that they allowed cameras in the courtroom, 1189 01:10:39,010 --> 01:10:42,520 over the objection of the defense. 1190 01:10:42,530 --> 01:10:45,189 Bittaker did not want those cameras in the courtroom. 1191 01:10:45,266 --> 01:10:47,608 His attorneys didn't want them in the courtroom. 1192 01:10:47,685 --> 01:10:49,986 But the judge, Fredericks, 1193 01:10:50,062 --> 01:10:52,113 said, "No, this is too important." 1194 01:10:52,189 --> 01:10:55,199 Every newspaper, every television station 1195 01:10:55,276 --> 01:10:57,159 had a reporter covering it. 1196 01:10:57,236 --> 01:10:59,211 - Norris, you'll recall, pleaded guilty 1197 01:10:59,289 --> 01:11:02,748 to all the charges and agreed to testify against Bittaker 1198 01:11:02,825 --> 01:11:05,167 in order to avoid the death penalty. 1199 01:11:05,178 --> 01:11:07,512 - Bittaker pled not guilty. 1200 01:11:07,588 --> 01:11:09,755 Did I think I was gonna get a conviction? 1201 01:11:09,832 --> 01:11:11,507 Well, I hoped I would, 1202 01:11:11,584 --> 01:11:14,385 but it was not a foregone conclusion. 1203 01:11:14,462 --> 01:11:16,887 - The trial is expected to take two months. 1204 01:11:16,964 --> 01:11:19,774 Bittaker could get the death penalty if convicted. 1205 01:11:19,851 --> 01:11:22,518 - These were all wonderful girls. 1206 01:11:22,595 --> 01:11:25,438 I had their pictures on a board 1207 01:11:25,514 --> 01:11:27,148 when I was giving my opening statement, 1208 01:11:27,224 --> 01:11:29,158 'cause I wanted the jurors to get to know 1209 01:11:29,235 --> 01:11:31,027 what these girls were like in life. 1210 01:11:31,103 --> 01:11:34,405 - It was scary... scary. 1211 01:11:34,482 --> 01:11:36,416 I was uncomfortable in the courtroom 1212 01:11:36,492 --> 01:11:38,951 looking at Lawrence Bittaker. 1213 01:11:39,028 --> 01:11:42,288 And I hated him for what he had done. 1214 01:11:42,365 --> 01:11:44,749 - Norris said he didn't want to kill the girl, 1215 01:11:44,825 --> 01:11:46,450 but said he was too afraid 1216 01:11:46,528 --> 01:11:49,170 of alleged accomplice Lawrence Bittaker not to. 1217 01:11:49,246 --> 01:11:52,181 - Norris was responsible for his own actions, 1218 01:11:52,258 --> 01:11:54,884 and he's lying about all of it. 1219 01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:58,012 - Roy's version of the crimes, a lot of times, 1220 01:11:58,089 --> 01:12:00,389 is very, very different than Bittaker's. 1221 01:12:00,466 --> 01:12:03,100 - The defense attorneys came to me first 1222 01:12:03,177 --> 01:12:06,070 because Larry was nice to me 1223 01:12:06,147 --> 01:12:09,699 and wanted me to testify on his behalf. 1224 01:12:09,776 --> 01:12:11,359 They subpoenaed me. 1225 01:12:11,435 --> 01:12:14,070 I begged them to not make me say... 1226 01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:15,988 [voice breaking] In front of the camera 1227 01:12:16,065 --> 01:12:18,458 that he was nice to me. 1228 01:12:18,534 --> 01:12:19,784 Tracee Lee Peña-- 1229 01:12:19,860 --> 01:12:21,335 P-E-N-A. 1230 01:12:21,412 --> 01:12:24,372 I remember them asking about the gun 1231 01:12:24,448 --> 01:12:26,707 and me talking about the gun. 1232 01:12:26,784 --> 01:12:29,960 And he was pissed because I brought that up. 1233 01:12:29,971 --> 01:12:31,462 He was really pissed. 1234 01:12:31,539 --> 01:12:34,382 And I thought, "He's gonna kill me in the courtroom." 1235 01:12:34,458 --> 01:12:37,551 Like, you know, that's what's gonna happen. 1236 01:12:37,628 --> 01:12:42,223 - Oh, I thought about killing Lawrence Bittaker at the trial. 1237 01:12:42,299 --> 01:12:44,558 I would dream that I had a gun, 1238 01:12:44,635 --> 01:12:46,727 and I snuck it into the courtroom. 1239 01:12:46,804 --> 01:12:48,771 - This afternoon, in a surprise move, 1240 01:12:48,848 --> 01:12:52,316 Bittaker took the stand in his own defense. 1241 01:12:52,393 --> 01:12:53,776 - Basically Bittaker's defense was, 1242 01:12:53,787 --> 01:12:55,820 "I didn't do it. It was the other guy," right? 1243 01:12:55,896 --> 01:12:56,987 "It was Norris." 1244 01:12:56,998 --> 01:12:59,198 - Mr. Norris and another party 1245 01:12:59,275 --> 01:13:02,243 took turns raping her. 1246 01:13:02,319 --> 01:13:05,287 Mr. Norris killed her 1247 01:13:05,364 --> 01:13:08,416 with two hammer blows to the head. 1248 01:13:08,492 --> 01:13:13,504 - Bittaker's defense was that he didn't do it, 1249 01:13:13,515 --> 01:13:16,090 that Norris was the killer, 1250 01:13:16,167 --> 01:13:18,676 and was trying to blame him. 1251 01:13:18,686 --> 01:13:21,145 He said that he wasn't even there 1252 01:13:21,222 --> 01:13:23,347 when Cindy Schaefer was murdered. 1253 01:13:23,424 --> 01:13:26,559 - Have you ever seen that young lady in person? 1254 01:13:26,635 --> 01:13:28,152 - No, sir. 1255 01:13:28,229 --> 01:13:29,895 - You ever taken any photographs of this girl? 1256 01:13:29,972 --> 01:13:30,938 - No, sir. 1257 01:13:31,015 --> 01:13:33,357 - He said Andrea Hall 1258 01:13:33,368 --> 01:13:36,360 agreed to sex for $200. 1259 01:13:36,437 --> 01:13:38,320 - If she was bound and gagged, as Mr. Norris states, 1260 01:13:38,397 --> 01:13:39,771 she wouldn't be able to hit me. 1261 01:13:39,849 --> 01:13:43,659 - He said Jackie Gilliam agreed to $600 1262 01:13:43,736 --> 01:13:47,413 to pose in the photographs of her taped up. 1263 01:13:47,490 --> 01:13:49,707 - She was paid to make certain responses. 1264 01:13:49,783 --> 01:13:52,376 She was having difficulty following those directions. 1265 01:13:52,453 --> 01:13:56,255 - And that Lynette Ledford was drug-crazed. 1266 01:13:56,332 --> 01:13:57,840 - I cannot explain the actions 1267 01:13:57,917 --> 01:14:01,010 of a intoxicated individual who's on PCP. 1268 01:14:01,086 --> 01:14:04,430 - He never said, "God, I wish Norris hadn't don't that." 1269 01:14:04,507 --> 01:14:05,790 You know? 1270 01:14:05,866 --> 01:14:08,684 "I wish I had known. I could've stopped him." 1271 01:14:08,761 --> 01:14:09,868 None of that. 1272 01:14:09,945 --> 01:14:11,779 - The main thing I had going for me 1273 01:14:11,856 --> 01:14:13,731 was the Lynette Ledford torture tape. 1274 01:14:13,807 --> 01:14:16,534 Nobody has ever had a piece of evidence like that. 1275 01:14:16,611 --> 01:14:18,402 - The most dramatic moments of the trial 1276 01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:19,904 are expected to come on Wednesday, 1277 01:14:19,980 --> 01:14:21,739 when a tape recording of the torture 1278 01:14:21,815 --> 01:14:25,284 of the fifth murder victim will be played to the jury. 1279 01:14:25,361 --> 01:14:26,735 - Stephen warned me. 1280 01:14:26,813 --> 01:14:28,871 He says, "You know, this is gonna be pretty heavy." 1281 01:14:28,948 --> 01:14:31,290 They begin to play the tape. 1282 01:14:31,367 --> 01:14:33,834 ¶ ¶ 1283 01:14:33,845 --> 01:14:38,598 Now, I'm not even gonna try to explain how bad it was. 1284 01:14:38,674 --> 01:14:42,426 But just let your imagination think... 1285 01:14:42,503 --> 01:14:44,520 of the worst thing you've ever heard, 1286 01:14:44,597 --> 01:14:48,774 because this poor girl is just begging for her life. 1287 01:14:50,594 --> 01:14:54,104 - The tape was one of the worst things I've ever heard 1288 01:14:54,115 --> 01:14:57,107 in my entire professional career. 1289 01:14:57,184 --> 01:14:59,443 It should never see the light of day. 1290 01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:02,446 It is very, very, very upsetting. 1291 01:15:02,523 --> 01:15:07,243 And, frankly, it involves the torture 1292 01:15:07,319 --> 01:15:08,869 of an innocent young woman. 1293 01:15:08,946 --> 01:15:10,454 And, so, at her expense, 1294 01:15:10,531 --> 01:15:15,125 it should never, ever be played for an audience. 1295 01:15:15,202 --> 01:15:21,465 ¶ ¶ 1296 01:15:21,542 --> 01:15:26,011 - I looked over to the jurors, and they were in shock. 1297 01:15:26,088 --> 01:15:29,139 - Two of the jurors openly started to cry. 1298 01:15:29,150 --> 01:15:32,977 Maybe half a dozen people sitting in the audience 1299 01:15:33,053 --> 01:15:36,146 just got up and left. 1300 01:15:36,223 --> 01:15:39,325 - [crying] 1301 01:15:41,663 --> 01:15:46,365 - The courtroom artist ran out in tears. 1302 01:15:46,442 --> 01:15:49,001 [object clatters] 1303 01:15:49,078 --> 01:15:51,787 - I just never heard anything like that in my life. 1304 01:15:51,864 --> 01:15:54,248 I've never heard screams like that. 1305 01:15:54,325 --> 01:15:57,251 I don't know. It was bad. 1306 01:15:57,328 --> 01:15:59,753 - As the tape is being played, 1307 01:15:59,764 --> 01:16:04,475 Larry is basically looking down at a transcript of the tape. 1308 01:16:04,552 --> 01:16:07,595 He's reading along with it. People are crying. 1309 01:16:07,671 --> 01:16:09,179 People are leaving the courtroom. 1310 01:16:09,190 --> 01:16:10,931 Everything around him 1311 01:16:11,008 --> 01:16:13,976 is kind of turning into this chaotic scene, 1312 01:16:14,053 --> 01:16:16,979 and these screams are piercing through the air. 1313 01:16:17,056 --> 01:16:21,191 He's dead-focused, with no emotion on his face. 1314 01:16:21,268 --> 01:16:25,871 ¶ ¶ 1315 01:16:58,305 --> 01:17:03,442 - I can tell you that for two years after the trial, 1316 01:17:03,519 --> 01:17:05,653 I would have a recurring nightmare 1317 01:17:05,729 --> 01:17:07,363 of hearing the girls scream 1318 01:17:07,439 --> 01:17:09,865 and running to try and save them 1319 01:17:09,942 --> 01:17:11,992 and always getting there too late, 1320 01:17:12,069 --> 01:17:14,995 seeing the results of ice picks in the head 1321 01:17:15,072 --> 01:17:17,873 and fractured skulls 1322 01:17:17,884 --> 01:17:21,168 and nipples ripped off and everything. 1323 01:17:21,245 --> 01:17:22,920 And... 1324 01:17:22,930 --> 01:17:25,381 you know, I was very depressed. 1325 01:17:25,457 --> 01:17:27,007 I won't lie about it. 1326 01:17:27,084 --> 01:17:30,010 I didn't have to take antidepressants 1327 01:17:30,087 --> 01:17:31,470 after the Manson trial, 1328 01:17:31,547 --> 01:17:33,972 but I did after the Bittaker trial. 1329 01:17:34,049 --> 01:17:36,934 I'm sorry. 1330 01:17:36,944 --> 01:17:38,686 - I think when Bittaker took the stand-- 1331 01:17:38,762 --> 01:17:41,730 I think that 138 IQ of his 1332 01:17:41,807 --> 01:17:44,149 worked in the opposite direction. 1333 01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:46,777 I think he truly thought that he could get up there 1334 01:17:46,854 --> 01:17:51,490 on the stand and convince the jurors that it wasn't him. 1335 01:17:51,567 --> 01:17:53,242 - She's saying, "Don't touch me." 1336 01:17:53,318 --> 01:17:54,868 She's not screaming. She's not crying. 1337 01:17:54,945 --> 01:17:56,370 She's not sobbing. 1338 01:17:56,447 --> 01:17:58,580 - I asked him, "Would you please describe 1339 01:17:58,657 --> 01:18:01,083 "for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury 1340 01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:04,970 what we hear on the tape of Lynette Ledford?" 1341 01:18:05,047 --> 01:18:08,549 And he said, "Oh, it was just pillow talk." 1342 01:18:08,625 --> 01:18:11,969 - Mr. Norris was interested in having the sounds 1343 01:18:12,045 --> 01:18:14,555 of domination or fear. 1344 01:18:14,631 --> 01:18:17,516 I wanted some sounds of... 1345 01:18:17,593 --> 01:18:20,060 pillow talk or... 1346 01:18:20,137 --> 01:18:21,770 kind of dirty talk. 1347 01:18:21,847 --> 01:18:24,231 - That this was all a setup, 1348 01:18:24,308 --> 01:18:26,108 that it was just pillow talk. 1349 01:18:26,185 --> 01:18:28,736 She was playing along and screaming, 1350 01:18:28,812 --> 01:18:31,655 and he had paid her to do that. 1351 01:18:31,732 --> 01:18:35,409 - I just told her I liked hearing that type of thing, 1352 01:18:35,486 --> 01:18:37,995 and... 1353 01:18:38,071 --> 01:18:40,998 I hadn't--didn't have a tape at that time of such a thing, 1354 01:18:41,008 --> 01:18:44,334 so I asked her if she would make one for me. 1355 01:18:44,411 --> 01:18:46,971 - There was gasps in the courtroom. 1356 01:18:47,047 --> 01:18:51,008 - And you almost felt like laughing in his face. 1357 01:18:51,018 --> 01:18:54,803 And then when he broke down and started crying, 1358 01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:58,223 it was as if we were watching this farce. 1359 01:18:58,300 --> 01:19:00,726 For him to all of a sudden have crocodile tears 1360 01:19:00,803 --> 01:19:02,895 running down his face, 1361 01:19:02,971 --> 01:19:05,105 nobody bought it. 1362 01:19:05,182 --> 01:19:06,857 Nobody bought it. 1363 01:19:06,934 --> 01:19:09,234 He was the murderer. He was the torturer. 1364 01:19:09,311 --> 01:19:10,870 He was the bad guy. 1365 01:19:10,946 --> 01:19:17,910 ¶ ¶ 1366 01:19:22,932 --> 01:19:25,426 [suspenseful music] 1367 01:19:25,503 --> 01:19:27,252 ¶ ¶ 1368 01:19:27,329 --> 01:19:29,588 - It took the jury of seven women and five men 1369 01:19:29,665 --> 01:19:32,090 less than 2 1/2 days of deliberation 1370 01:19:32,167 --> 01:19:34,134 to convict Bittaker of 26 counts, 1371 01:19:34,145 --> 01:19:37,438 including kidnapping, rape, torture, and murder. 1372 01:19:37,515 --> 01:19:41,642 - Going for the death penalty was only partially my decision. 1373 01:19:41,718 --> 01:19:44,520 It had to be okayed by the District Attorney, 1374 01:19:44,596 --> 01:19:46,814 who was against capital punishment, 1375 01:19:46,890 --> 01:19:51,235 but this case was so egregious that he agreed 1376 01:19:51,311 --> 01:19:54,655 that we should seek the death penalty. 1377 01:19:54,731 --> 01:19:58,575 If the death penalty isn't proper in this case, 1378 01:19:58,652 --> 01:20:01,495 when would it ever be proper? 1379 01:20:01,572 --> 01:20:02,704 - The jury went in the room 1380 01:20:02,781 --> 01:20:04,748 and just looked around and just nodded. 1381 01:20:04,825 --> 01:20:07,417 - Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker should be put to death 1382 01:20:07,494 --> 01:20:10,295 by administration of lethal gas. 1383 01:20:10,372 --> 01:20:13,507 - They were unanimous within 60 seconds, 1384 01:20:13,584 --> 01:20:15,684 giving him the death penalty. 1385 01:20:17,254 --> 01:20:21,682 - In 1978, the voters had overwhelmingly approved 1386 01:20:21,692 --> 01:20:23,192 the death penalty. 1387 01:20:23,269 --> 01:20:25,978 But you had a very liberal Supreme Court at that time. 1388 01:20:26,054 --> 01:20:28,322 You had a liberal governor. 1389 01:20:28,399 --> 01:20:31,733 It was always thought maybe, with the appeals process, 1390 01:20:31,744 --> 01:20:34,403 it wasn't going to happen. 1391 01:20:34,479 --> 01:20:36,321 And it ultimately didn't. 1392 01:20:36,332 --> 01:20:39,375 - Bittaker sat on death row, 1393 01:20:39,451 --> 01:20:42,035 playing bridge and chess. 1394 01:20:42,112 --> 01:20:44,329 I was planning on going up there at his execution 1395 01:20:44,406 --> 01:20:49,126 and holding up the photographs of the five girls. 1396 01:20:49,202 --> 01:20:52,880 But I never got that chance. 1397 01:20:52,956 --> 01:20:55,507 It was a terrible case to live through. 1398 01:20:55,584 --> 01:20:58,802 I mean, Paul Bynum, who was the investigator 1399 01:20:58,879 --> 01:21:00,804 who broke the case, 1400 01:21:00,881 --> 01:21:02,973 ended up committing suicide, 1401 01:21:03,050 --> 01:21:05,434 and he left a suicide note 1402 01:21:05,510 --> 01:21:08,854 saying that he felt 1403 01:21:08,931 --> 01:21:11,732 that Bittaker and Norris would get out 1404 01:21:11,808 --> 01:21:15,619 and Bittaker would come after him 1405 01:21:15,696 --> 01:21:18,739 and that if he killed himself 1406 01:21:18,815 --> 01:21:20,991 that maybe Bittaker would let 1407 01:21:21,068 --> 01:21:24,253 his wife and daughter live. 1408 01:21:26,531 --> 01:21:30,342 ¶ ¶ 1409 01:21:45,842 --> 01:21:48,685 - He called me and said he had cancer. 1410 01:21:48,696 --> 01:21:50,312 It was serious, and it was a ton 1411 01:21:50,389 --> 01:21:51,647 of different types of cancer 1412 01:21:51,723 --> 01:21:53,616 spreading throughout his whole body. 1413 01:21:58,956 --> 01:22:00,681 - I had pulled out my notes, 1414 01:22:00,758 --> 01:22:02,950 and I said, "Let's do, like, a little round of fact-check." 1415 01:22:03,026 --> 01:22:06,078 I was like, "The remains of Cindy and Andrea 1416 01:22:06,154 --> 01:22:08,080 "have not been found to this day. 1417 01:22:08,156 --> 01:22:10,248 Correct?" He's like, "Yes." 1418 01:22:10,325 --> 01:22:11,926 And then I'm, like, about to go to my next point, 1419 01:22:12,002 --> 01:22:14,294 and he just grabs the paper and the pen, 1420 01:22:14,371 --> 01:22:17,422 and he starts drawing a map of the San Gabriel Mountains 1421 01:22:17,499 --> 01:22:20,726 and saying Norris gave the wrong location for Cindy. 1422 01:22:20,803 --> 01:22:24,513 It's about a mile off from where she actually was. 1423 01:22:24,589 --> 01:22:26,732 Then he's like, "Oh, he's so wrong about Andrea." 1424 01:22:26,809 --> 01:22:28,141 So he's drawing this, 1425 01:22:28,218 --> 01:22:31,311 and he's, like, telling me as he's drawing it. 1426 01:22:31,388 --> 01:22:33,939 I messaged Andrea Hall's sister, 1427 01:22:34,016 --> 01:22:36,817 and I said, "I know where your sister is." 1428 01:22:36,893 --> 01:22:38,276 And she called me. 1429 01:22:38,353 --> 01:22:41,080 She's like, "We've never given up hope." 1430 01:22:41,156 --> 01:22:43,490 And... 1431 01:22:43,567 --> 01:22:45,450 it was just-- 1432 01:22:45,527 --> 01:22:49,964 how hard I fought to get this information from him... 1433 01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:51,832 [voice breaking] And just hearing her say, like... 1434 01:22:51,908 --> 01:22:53,500 [sniffles] 1435 01:22:53,577 --> 01:22:57,087 Just hearing her say, you know, "We've never given up hope," 1436 01:22:57,098 --> 01:22:58,764 it just made it all worth it 1437 01:22:58,841 --> 01:23:01,717 to get this information to the families. 1438 01:23:01,793 --> 01:23:04,970 [exhales deeply, sniffles] 1439 01:23:05,047 --> 01:23:07,806 - The area was never searched. 1440 01:23:07,883 --> 01:23:10,892 Stephen Kay said they had searched near there 1441 01:23:10,969 --> 01:23:12,361 but not that area. 1442 01:23:12,438 --> 01:23:18,325 So my hope is to find my sister and bring her home. 1443 01:23:20,020 --> 01:23:22,738 - Laura's approach to Larry 1444 01:23:22,748 --> 01:23:25,073 was certainly different than my approach. 1445 01:23:25,150 --> 01:23:26,908 But it could have been effective 1446 01:23:26,985 --> 01:23:28,368 on several different levels. 1447 01:23:28,445 --> 01:23:31,121 It sounds like he did give her information 1448 01:23:31,198 --> 01:23:33,123 that he certainly had not given to me. 1449 01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:35,208 But now it becomes important 1450 01:23:35,285 --> 01:23:38,670 to be able to verify what he did say to her. 1451 01:23:38,747 --> 01:23:43,258 ¶ ¶ 1452 01:23:43,335 --> 01:23:45,135 - One night Bittaker had a series 1453 01:23:45,212 --> 01:23:46,887 of heart attacks during the night, 1454 01:23:46,963 --> 01:23:48,221 and he had his heart medication 1455 01:23:48,298 --> 01:23:50,024 he was popping all through the night. 1456 01:23:59,684 --> 01:24:01,251 He was dying. 1457 01:24:01,253 --> 01:24:05,080 He was a ball of emotions and anxious and upset. 1458 01:24:12,823 --> 01:24:15,582 - [crying] 1459 01:24:15,659 --> 01:24:18,001 - And he was really, you know, 1460 01:24:18,078 --> 01:24:20,253 starting to process what he had done. 1461 01:24:20,330 --> 01:24:23,340 I think that's when it all started to hit him. 1462 01:24:23,416 --> 01:24:26,268 - [sobbing] 1463 01:24:35,821 --> 01:24:39,272 - Friday the 13th, 2019, 1464 01:24:39,349 --> 01:24:42,901 I had just returned from California from seeing him. 1465 01:24:42,978 --> 01:24:45,362 I got a call that he passed away. 1466 01:24:45,438 --> 01:24:46,872 I was sad. 1467 01:24:46,949 --> 01:24:49,991 You know, this is someone I've talked to every single day. 1468 01:24:50,068 --> 01:24:53,370 We had a friendship. We did have an authentic friendship. 1469 01:24:53,446 --> 01:24:56,298 It's been a profound, profound experience. 1470 01:24:57,635 --> 01:24:59,918 2 1/2 months right after Bittaker, 1471 01:24:59,995 --> 01:25:02,462 Roy Norris died of natural causes. 1472 01:25:02,539 --> 01:25:04,172 So many people called them soul mates, 1473 01:25:04,249 --> 01:25:05,916 and you got to wonder. 1474 01:25:05,918 --> 01:25:07,559 They died like an old, married couple, 1475 01:25:07,636 --> 01:25:10,145 like they couldn't live without each other. 1476 01:25:12,549 --> 01:25:14,724 - When I heard Bittaker and Norris had died, 1477 01:25:14,801 --> 01:25:17,477 I was shocked but happy... 1478 01:25:17,554 --> 01:25:18,854 relieved. 1479 01:25:18,930 --> 01:25:21,565 I'm sorry that it took so long. 1480 01:25:21,641 --> 01:25:25,402 - My mother said, in order for her to heal herself, 1481 01:25:25,478 --> 01:25:27,487 that she forgave 1482 01:25:27,498 --> 01:25:30,165 Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris. 1483 01:25:31,651 --> 01:25:35,120 Personally, I can't do that. I cannot forgive them. 1484 01:25:35,197 --> 01:25:38,540 - It's taken me my whole... 1485 01:25:38,617 --> 01:25:42,002 rest of my life to deal with this... 1486 01:25:42,012 --> 01:25:45,714 that somebody... 1487 01:25:45,790 --> 01:25:48,341 that was kind to me, 1488 01:25:48,418 --> 01:25:50,853 that I trusted... 1489 01:25:54,099 --> 01:25:57,109 Was hurting young girls. 1490 01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:01,146 - If anybody deserved the death penalty, 1491 01:26:01,223 --> 01:26:03,148 it was Lawrence Bittaker. 1492 01:26:03,225 --> 01:26:05,901 I'm glad that he was kept alive, though, 1493 01:26:05,977 --> 01:26:07,819 because we've learned so much, I believe, 1494 01:26:07,896 --> 01:26:11,198 about psychopathy and sadism from him. 1495 01:26:11,274 --> 01:26:15,076 It's a challenge to try to find that humanity. 1496 01:26:15,153 --> 01:26:18,538 But I would definitely say that I did see some human 1497 01:26:18,615 --> 01:26:22,542 in him in our time and in our interviews together. 1498 01:26:22,553 --> 01:26:25,295 I do think he was developing feelings, 1499 01:26:25,372 --> 01:26:28,381 'cause I don't think it was just to manipulate me 1500 01:26:28,458 --> 01:26:30,842 or to tell me what I wanted to hear. 1501 01:26:30,919 --> 01:26:35,731 - I don't believe a man at that late stage of life 1502 01:26:35,807 --> 01:26:38,066 is gonna turn over a new leaf. 1503 01:26:38,143 --> 01:26:40,435 I believe that he tried to convince Laura 1504 01:26:40,512 --> 01:26:44,147 that he had empathy because he liked to have her visit. 1505 01:26:44,224 --> 01:26:46,066 It was companionship. 1506 01:26:46,142 --> 01:26:49,152 - He was actually proud of being psychopathic. 1507 01:26:49,229 --> 01:26:52,822 He was proud of not being controlled 1508 01:26:52,833 --> 01:26:54,699 by the kinds of emotions 1509 01:26:54,776 --> 01:26:57,077 that non-psychopathic people have. 1510 01:26:57,153 --> 01:27:00,872 Do I think he just shredded his psychopathy 1511 01:27:00,949 --> 01:27:03,917 and became a feeling, loving human being? 1512 01:27:03,994 --> 01:27:06,294 Based on my experience, my background, and training, 1513 01:27:06,371 --> 01:27:08,046 I do not. 1514 01:27:08,123 --> 01:27:09,339 - A lot of people might be like, 1515 01:27:09,350 --> 01:27:10,999 "He doesn't deserve kindness. 1516 01:27:11,075 --> 01:27:13,677 He doesn't deserve empathy from anybody," you know. 1517 01:27:13,753 --> 01:27:17,264 And that's fine for people to have that perception. 1518 01:27:17,340 --> 01:27:20,183 I just know that I'm gonna live my life 1519 01:27:20,260 --> 01:27:22,269 with empathy and compassion for everyone, 1520 01:27:22,279 --> 01:27:25,948 and I'm gonna have no regrets at the end of my life.