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[Gates McFadden]
Star Trek: The Next Generation

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had successfully returned the franchise
to television and flourished.

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How true.

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[Larry Nemecek] The syndicated model
had worked so well for Next Generation.

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Even on the business side of things,

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Next Generation
was this amazing paradigm shift.

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Paramount knew that they
had a cash cow in Star Trek.

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[McFadden] So Paramount did what
any studio does with its prized cow.

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Indubitably.

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-[cow moos]
-[McFadden] Milk it for all it's worth.

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We were a few seasons
into Next Generation

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when they said,
"Let's get another show."

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[McFadden] This is the story
of how Deep Space Nine

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attempted to take Star Trek
somewhere it had never been.

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A space station.

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[McFadden]
In other words...

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It's not a starship boldly going.

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[McFadden]
So even though...

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Some things are still the same.

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[McFadden]
Most things were very different.

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So beam aboard and hold on tight

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as we boldly go into the depths
of Star Trek.

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And you can see it all from here
in The Center Seat.

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With the death
of Gene Roddenberry in 1991,

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the next chapter of the Star Trek saga
on TV would be untouched by its creator.

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But Star Trek was now
in the hands of Rick Berman,

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someone Gene trusted more than anyone.

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I felt it was my responsibility
to keep Gene's optimism alive.

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[McFadden] Which as the new series
approached was easier said than done.

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One of the biggest bugaboos
driving writers crazy

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with the idea of Gene's perfect humans,

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how do you have conflict among characters
and have it be Star Trek

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and its perfect humans
in the advanced 24th-century world?

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[McFadden]
There was another problem too.

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We can't have two Star Trek ships
out at the same time.

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Do you want to confuse
the audience with another ship show?

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[McFadden]
With The Next Generation still on the air,

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the network was looking
for something different.

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They've got the well-oiled machine
up and running.

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Their problem was how to distinguish it
to go where you hadn't gone before.

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[McFadden] Meaning...

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[Andrew Robinson] It can't be just about
going from planet to planet

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and solving problems, you know,
with aliens in space.

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[McFadden] So Rick Berman
and showrunner Michael Piller

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came up with something
exactly opposite.

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Let's do it on a space station.
Let's not be locked onto an Enterprise.

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[Andre Bormanis] The premise
as Michael Piller used to explain it was,

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"The action is gonna come to us."

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It's like Dodge City,
you know, in Gunsmoke.

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And immediately now you're telling a story
that is different to what has come before.

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[McFadden] Well, different,
that's what the network wanted.

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This is where the adventure is.

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[McFadden]
No sooner had the adventure begun

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than the worries set in.

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Every new challenge
to come up with an original Star Trek

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is fraught with worry.

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"Are we making it too different?"

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You know, it was a little bit risky.

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And is some of it just gonna be,

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"We're gonna have a certain aspect
of the audience

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that's just gonna be
so, you know, bullheaded

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that they won't come in
and accept something new"?

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[McFadden] Although risky,
the writers were more than ready

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to explore this new style
of Star Trek.

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Let's push the boundaries
and see what are the edges.

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What are the limitations
of what Star Trek can be?

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[McFadden] Someone who was
very interested in pushing the edges

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with both his writing
and his beard color

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was Next Generation writer Ira Behr.

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Man, he was just into it. [laughs]
I don't know how else to say it.

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[McFadden]
And coming over to Deep Space Nine,

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Ira brought some bold ideas.

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Ira got very involved in wanting to do

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long strings of continuing episodes.

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[McFadden]
Which is now bingeworthy TV.

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But since the original series,

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Star Trek had made its name
as an episodic epic.

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That follows a definite pattern.

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The minute you have serialization,
you have lots of arcs going.

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You can't miss those things.

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At this point in television, you know,
almost everything was episodic.

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Yeah, when will we learn?

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There were very few serialized shows.

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Dallas was a serialized show.

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Dynasty is a serialized show,
primetime soap operas.

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[gasps]

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[McFadden]
The studio wanted a fresh approach,

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but not that fresh.

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The studio said no.

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[McFadden]
Paramount feared viewers would be adrift

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in this new Star Trek universe.

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These shows were gonna be syndicated.

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They were not necessarily
gonna be syndicated in order.

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The independent stations,
they don't want to have to be locked

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into doing these
in the order that we give it to them.

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They wanna be able to show them
in whatever order they want

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that suits their market
'cause this is important for their ratings

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and they just wanna mix them up.

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And they wanted standalone episodes.

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[McFadden]
And even though...

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Ira was very good at talking me
into doing what he wanted to do.

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[McFadden]
He wasn't that good.

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The studio absolutely said no.

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[McFadden] Okay, well,
that's the last we'll hear of that.

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Most likely.

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It may not have been ready
for serialized plotlines,

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but Star Trek was ready for something else
far more groundbreaking.

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Your hero's a Negro captain.

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Avery being the first
African American captain

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of a Star Trek series like this,

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but in that day and age
was a big deal.

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People won't accept it.
It's not believable.

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It just didn't happen.

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It was exciting to know that we were
gonna change history, really, with that.

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This was before
there was a Black president,

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so this was really groundbreaking
at the time.

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[McFadden] Not only did Starfleet
have its first commander of color,

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but unlike the captains before him,

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Benjamin Sisko
was carrying a lot of baggage.

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He was coming aboard with a very specific,
complicated backstory.

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And so we start
with a captain losing his wife.

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Damn it! We just can't leave her here!

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Being left with his son.

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I was just thinking
how much you look like your mom.

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[McFadden] Not only would Sisko
be unlike any captain before him...

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He believes Captain Picard is personally
responsible for the death of his wife.

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[screams]

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And he now has
to come to terms with all that.

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Otherwise, he has no future at all.

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One who does not wish to be among us.

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In that sense, he's very much
like Captain Pike in "The Cage."

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I'm tired of being responsible
for 203 lives.

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By choosing all these elements,

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Michael Piller set up the incredible
possibilities for this character.

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[McFadden]
But creating a complex, conflicted captain

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would prove to be a double-edged sword.

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That was a difficult fit for Star Trek.

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Like, that's not how
a Starfleet captain should be.

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[McFadden]
Avery Brooks' audition,

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though he didn't know it at the time,

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turned out to be a previous production
that showcased his emotional range.

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I had done a movie of the week
for Showtime.

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It was a version of Uncle Tom's Cabin.

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Nobody can buy my soul.

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Avery came off
as an incredibly powerful man

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with hurt, with damage,
which works perfectly for Sisko.

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[McFadden]
But Paramount was on a different page.

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The studio wanted Sisko
to be somebody else.

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They didn't think
Avery was charismatic enough.

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They wanted Kirk
and they wanted Picard,

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and I think they didn't realize
that no one was writing Kirk or Picard.

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They were writing Sisko.

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[McFadden]
This was going to require an intervention.

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So I went to Junie Lowry,
the casting director,

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and I said, "Avery Brooks,"
and she said,

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"Yeah, we talked about Avery,
but he's down in the Caribbean.

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He's on vacation."

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I said, "So what?

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Send him the script.

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We're talking about a man
who could have a job for seven years.

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You don't think he'd want
to read this script on vacation?"

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She says,
"Okay, I'll send him the script."

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[McFadden]
And in the end...

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I was ready to die with her.

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[McFadden]
Avery's talent could not be ignored.

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We settled on Avery Brooks
because he was the best.

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He was the best captain.

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[McFadden]
And this captain's leadership

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would be tested as much
off the bridge as on it,

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by a 15-year-old.

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I was instructed to not be like
Wil Wheaton and Wesley Crusher.

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He was too much
of a problem-solver/know-it-all,

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and they wanted my character
to be more human and fallible,

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just like a regular kid.

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[McFadden]
And Cirroc did have one advantage.

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[Cirroc Lofton] I think I avoided the trap
of being another Wesley Crusher

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by not knowing about Wesley Crusher.

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So you can't imitate something
that you have no idea of.

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Wanna go for a swim?

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[McFadden]
Like The Next Generation before it,

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Deep Space Nine imagined real-life
family struggles in the 24th century.

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Is this the food replicator?

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[McFadden]
And this dose of 20th-century reality

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was more alien to American television
than even the weirdest aliens.

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How often did you see
a single father raising a child

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in those days of television?

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Not very often.

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[McFadden] So Paramount
would be getting just what they wanted:

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a very different Star Trek
with a very different captain,

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captaining a very different starship.

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It's not a starship, it's a station.

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Space station?

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[McFadden] Indeed.

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The days of the Enterprise were over,

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and Captain Sisko
would need a station to captain.

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Very difficult to come by
that station's design.

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There was a huge evolution to it all.

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[Herman Zimmerman]
And it's a whole different approach.

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We were going about the station
as being a kind of Tower of Babel place

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that was built over a long period of time
by several cultures.

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So we started doing sketching of things

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that look like an alien platform
with different levels

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and different hardware hanging off
and places for ships to dock.

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So we had these crazy designs.

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[McFadden] In the end, producers decided
the solution to this space station dilemma

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was a simple matter
of keeping up with the Cardassians.

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I'm allowed to do whatever I want.

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[McFadden]
Oh, no, no, no, the Cardassians.

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You can't understand
that we are skeptical.

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[Nemecek] When it was finally decided
it would be a Cardassian station,

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that was still a blank slate.

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What did that look like?

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We have to start thinking
like Cardassians.

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[McFadden]
Who knows how Cardassians think?

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But Rick Berman knew one thing
about Cardassian architecture.

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Rick Berman rightly said,
"You know, this should be a shape

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that any kid watching the show
could draw in a few strokes."

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[Pabst] All right, I haven't got a title
for this one yet.

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Anybody got any ideas?

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And they eventually came around to maybe
the station could be a kind of a wheel.

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The circular station with a hub,
you know, with a core

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made a lot of sense.

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At the end of the process,
the station looked very alien.

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The model for Deep Space Nine
was six feet around,

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and it was the most beautiful model.

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[McFadden] The designers
had reinvented the wheel for space.

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There were, like, cogs in a wheel.

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They actually had cogs
and rolled in the cogged floor.

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Herman built, up until that point,

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the largest standing interior set
ever made for Star Trek,

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actually, on the promenade.

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You walked on and you were enveloped.

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You came on the set and it was hard not
to think that you were on a space station

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and that everything was fully functional.

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It was beautiful.

236
00:10:35,053 --> 00:10:36,930
[McFadden]
Beautiful, unusual,

237
00:10:37,013 --> 00:10:39,849
it was like nothing
Star Trek had seen before.

238
00:10:39,933 --> 00:10:41,184
Unfortunately...

239
00:10:41,267 --> 00:10:43,103
Deep Space Nine and Babylon 5,

240
00:10:43,186 --> 00:10:45,397
they came out
at right about the same time.

241
00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,609
[McFadden] Babylon 5, like Star Trek,
was set on a space station.

242
00:10:49,692 --> 00:10:52,070
Excuse me, but I'm in the middle
of 15 things, all of them annoying.

243
00:10:52,153 --> 00:10:54,239
[Doug Drexler]
I think that there were a lot of people

244
00:10:54,322 --> 00:10:56,032
who thought that one stole from the other,

245
00:10:56,116 --> 00:10:58,201
that Star Trek was ripping off Babylon 5.

246
00:10:58,284 --> 00:10:59,994
[McFadden]
And it certainly didn't help

247
00:11:00,078 --> 00:11:03,915
that Babylon 5
had already been pitched to Paramount.

248
00:11:03,998 --> 00:11:07,669
J. Michael Straczynski had come in and
pitched what we all now know as Babylon 5.

249
00:11:07,752 --> 00:11:10,797
Not every dream I've heard lately
ends well for you.

250
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:12,090
[McFadden]
Paramount turned it down.

251
00:11:12,173 --> 00:11:13,633
[Drexler]
Straczynski, I believe he thought

252
00:11:13,716 --> 00:11:15,635
that Star Trek was ripping him off.

253
00:11:15,718 --> 00:11:19,139
Was Deep Space Nine ripping off Babylon 5?
I sincerely doubt it. I really do.

254
00:11:19,222 --> 00:11:23,226
The idea of a space station
is not an original idea.

255
00:11:23,309 --> 00:11:25,103
It's an obvious thing to do.

256
00:11:25,186 --> 00:11:28,148
I just think that
those are ironic similarities.

257
00:11:28,231 --> 00:11:33,695
[McFadden] Similarities that ended there
because Deep Space Nine was forging ahead,

258
00:11:33,778 --> 00:11:35,613
boldly going into the future.

259
00:11:42,036 --> 00:11:46,124
[McFadden] With a big cast,
big set, and big expectations,

260
00:11:46,207 --> 00:11:49,919
shooting on the pilot
began in August of 1992,

261
00:11:50,044 --> 00:11:54,340
with The Next Generation alumnus
David Carson in the director's chair.

262
00:11:54,424 --> 00:11:57,510
It wasn't the first pilot that I'd done,
but it was certainly the biggest.

263
00:11:57,594 --> 00:11:59,554
[McFadden]
Also big were the stakes.

264
00:11:59,637 --> 00:12:02,348
I had this meeting with
production people at Paramount

265
00:12:02,432 --> 00:12:06,394
who said to me, "This is the first time
we're doing a Star Trek series

266
00:12:06,478 --> 00:12:07,604
without Gene Roddenberry."

267
00:12:07,687 --> 00:12:10,940
[McFadden] Paramount feared that
if Deep Space Nine ventured too far

268
00:12:11,024 --> 00:12:14,986
from Star Trek 's traditions,
the fans might desert them.

269
00:12:15,069 --> 00:12:16,196
There is that risk.

270
00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:19,157
[McFadden] So the studio instructions
were crystal clear.

271
00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:23,119
[David Carson] "This pilot and this series
is very important to Paramount,

272
00:12:23,203 --> 00:12:26,956
so we want you to know that
it's very important that we get it right."

273
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:28,750
[John Tenuto]
And of course, a director on a pilot

274
00:12:28,833 --> 00:12:32,754
isn't just coming in for the week,
getting an episode together and helping.

275
00:12:32,837 --> 00:12:34,506
A director on a pilot
really sets the tone.

276
00:12:34,589 --> 00:12:35,632
Cut.

277
00:12:35,715 --> 00:12:38,343
[McFadden]
David had his work cut out for him

278
00:12:38,426 --> 00:12:41,721
with a complicated pilot script
called "Emissary."

279
00:12:41,804 --> 00:12:45,558
The "Emissary" was such
a difficult story to tell.

280
00:12:45,642 --> 00:12:49,270
[McFadden] And David needed
to get it right from the very first frame.

281
00:12:49,354 --> 00:12:52,482
The first scene that I shot
of Deep Space Nine

282
00:12:52,565 --> 00:12:53,942
was the scene on the bridge,

283
00:12:54,025 --> 00:12:56,069
and there was a lot of movement
in the scene,

284
00:12:56,152 --> 00:12:59,489
so I thought this is a great way
for us all to get to know this bridge.

285
00:12:59,572 --> 00:13:01,157
So I followed them around on a crane.

286
00:13:01,241 --> 00:13:03,743
It was problematic, and it caused
Livingston to come and tell me

287
00:13:03,826 --> 00:13:04,661
what am I doing.

288
00:13:04,744 --> 00:13:06,120
"You're still doing this shot
at lunchtime?"

289
00:13:06,204 --> 00:13:07,413
[laughs]

290
00:13:07,497 --> 00:13:08,998
'Cause I had to represent
the production end,

291
00:13:09,082 --> 00:13:12,460
and I had to come at him and tell him,
"David, you gotta move on."

292
00:13:12,544 --> 00:13:14,587
He didn't want to,
and a lot of times he didn't.

293
00:13:14,671 --> 00:13:16,089
Damn it! What's the problem?

294
00:13:16,172 --> 00:13:19,384
[McFadden] The problem was to do
with some awkward introductions.

295
00:13:19,467 --> 00:13:21,261
It had a lot of characters to introduce.

296
00:13:21,344 --> 00:13:22,428
Who the hell are you?

297
00:13:22,512 --> 00:13:24,973
And they were all not
cookie-cutter type of people.

298
00:13:25,056 --> 00:13:26,349
[laughs]

299
00:13:26,432 --> 00:13:29,143
There were all kinds of people
that we had really never seen before.

300
00:13:29,227 --> 00:13:31,062
[McFadden]
Some weren't really people at all.

301
00:13:31,145 --> 00:13:32,772
The Trill is implanted. It's ancient.

302
00:13:32,855 --> 00:13:35,233
You've got trying
to figure out that relationship.

303
00:13:35,316 --> 00:13:40,613
[McFadden] A symbiotic relationship
between basically an ancient asexual slug

304
00:13:40,697 --> 00:13:42,824
and an alien race called the Trill,

305
00:13:42,907 --> 00:13:44,325
played by Terry Farrell.

306
00:13:44,409 --> 00:13:47,453
Deep Space Nine was not just about man.

307
00:13:47,537 --> 00:13:51,291
It was about a whole bunch
of different races and species.

308
00:13:51,374 --> 00:13:54,252
[McFadden] And for the actors
who played these races and species,

309
00:13:54,335 --> 00:13:57,255
well, even some of them
were a little lost.

310
00:13:57,338 --> 00:13:59,549
"I think there's been a mistake.
This is a man's role.

311
00:13:59,632 --> 00:14:01,801
It's not...
It's not written for a woman."

312
00:14:01,884 --> 00:14:03,469
And that was my conditioning.

313
00:14:03,553 --> 00:14:05,597
[McFadden]
Nana Visitor was invited to read

314
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:08,349
for the character
of a Bajoran revolutionary.

315
00:14:08,433 --> 00:14:11,352
She found the way it was written
revolutionary.

316
00:14:11,436 --> 00:14:13,438
[Kay Eaton] Science fiction
needs more strong women characters.

317
00:14:13,521 --> 00:14:15,064
I'm always saying that, aren't I, Jules?

318
00:14:15,148 --> 00:14:18,359
[Nana Visitor] She wasn't smoothed out.
She wasn't reasonable all the time.

319
00:14:18,443 --> 00:14:19,902
She wasn't controllable.

320
00:14:19,986 --> 00:14:23,364
She didn't care about
how she was perceived.

321
00:14:23,448 --> 00:14:26,117
She cared about
how she lived her life more

322
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,078
and what goals she had
and how she met those.

323
00:14:29,162 --> 00:14:32,123
And too bad if people didn't like her.

324
00:14:32,206 --> 00:14:36,461
[McFadden] Nana took that exact attitude
into her audition as Kira.

325
00:14:36,544 --> 00:14:39,505
[Carson] There was a long table
with Rick Berman and me

326
00:14:39,589 --> 00:14:42,008
and a few other people
sitting around behind it,

327
00:14:42,091 --> 00:14:45,470
and she stormed into the room, really,
and started reading.

328
00:14:45,553 --> 00:14:49,182
I think it was the first scene
with Commander Sisko.

329
00:14:49,265 --> 00:14:52,352
I don't believe the Federation
has any business being here.

330
00:14:52,435 --> 00:14:54,395
I was pretty pissed off in that scene.

331
00:14:54,479 --> 00:14:56,856
And she got hold of these chairs
and started to throw them around the room.

332
00:14:57,774 --> 00:14:58,608
And it was extraordinary.

333
00:14:58,691 --> 00:15:00,109
And we sat there going,

334
00:15:00,193 --> 00:15:03,029
"Wow, this really is a revolutionary
who wants to be doing stuff."

335
00:15:03,112 --> 00:15:05,865
I remember terrifying
someone in the room.

336
00:15:05,948 --> 00:15:09,827
And then she did her last line,
banged her hands on the tabletop

337
00:15:09,911 --> 00:15:13,748
and glared at us as if to chance say,
"Okay, I got it, right?"

338
00:15:14,749 --> 00:15:16,292
And turned
and walked out of the room.

339
00:15:16,376 --> 00:15:18,795
And she was right.
She got it. That was it.

340
00:15:18,878 --> 00:15:21,047
[McFadden]
Despite a spirited audition,

341
00:15:21,130 --> 00:15:23,007
Nana was conflicted.

342
00:15:23,091 --> 00:15:27,095
[Visitor] I was so excited to get it.
I wanted to do it so badly.

343
00:15:27,178 --> 00:15:29,180
And my manager said,
"It's science fiction.

344
00:15:29,263 --> 00:15:32,725
Don't take this one.
It's gonna ruin your career."

345
00:15:32,809 --> 00:15:35,687
I thought long and hard about it,

346
00:15:35,770 --> 00:15:39,232
and I refused the job at first.

347
00:15:39,315 --> 00:15:42,402
I got a call from one of the producers,

348
00:15:42,485 --> 00:15:47,073
and he talked about the level
and who else was cast,

349
00:15:47,156 --> 00:15:49,784
and that did it for me.

350
00:15:49,867 --> 00:15:51,661
I'll find a way to make it happen.

351
00:15:51,744 --> 00:15:53,287
[McFadden]
The aggressive audition technique

352
00:15:53,371 --> 00:15:56,124
that had worked for Nana
was all the rage.

353
00:15:56,207 --> 00:15:59,460
[Carson] Rene Auberjonois came in,
stalked into the room,

354
00:15:59,544 --> 00:16:01,129
shut the door firmly behind him.

355
00:16:01,212 --> 00:16:04,549
[McFadden] With some cast members
virtually demanding their roles.

356
00:16:04,632 --> 00:16:06,008
He didn't say hello to anybody.

357
00:16:06,092 --> 00:16:08,469
Just when he finished,
he finished his last line,

358
00:16:08,553 --> 00:16:10,847
turned his back, walked through the door,
slammed it behind him.

359
00:16:10,930 --> 00:16:14,851
He came in with the body posture
and the attitude

360
00:16:14,934 --> 00:16:17,311
and everything that was Odo.

361
00:16:17,395 --> 00:16:18,521
It was wild.

362
00:16:18,604 --> 00:16:21,274
He was as rude
as he could possibly be to all of us,

363
00:16:21,357 --> 00:16:23,568
and that was Odo.
[laughs]

364
00:16:23,651 --> 00:16:26,821
You're gonna get sloppy
without me to keep an eye on you.

365
00:16:26,904 --> 00:16:28,781
I don't think so.

366
00:16:28,865 --> 00:16:32,577
[McFadden] Armin Shimerman reprised
his Ferengi act from The Next Generation,

367
00:16:32,660 --> 00:16:34,537
but this time as Quark,

368
00:16:34,620 --> 00:16:38,124
and was now
an occasionally affable bartender.

369
00:16:38,207 --> 00:16:43,212
I'd like to discuss
arranging a line of credit. [laughs]

370
00:16:43,296 --> 00:16:46,382
[McFadden] The Cardassians had come over
from The Next Generation too,

371
00:16:46,466 --> 00:16:50,011
but the inscrutable Garak,
played by Andrew Robinson,

372
00:16:50,094 --> 00:16:53,848
was derived in part
from an unlikely inspiration.

373
00:16:53,931 --> 00:16:56,350
I played Liberace once on a TV movie.

374
00:16:56,434 --> 00:16:57,769
I have a wonderful song.

375
00:16:57,852 --> 00:16:59,187
[Andrew Robinson]
There was something about Garak

376
00:16:59,270 --> 00:17:01,147
that always was reminding me...

377
00:17:01,230 --> 00:17:04,108
He became kind of Liberace's cousin.

378
00:17:04,192 --> 00:17:07,361
I do appreciate making new friends
whenever I can.

379
00:17:07,445 --> 00:17:10,531
[McFadden] But the main influence
for Garak, a Cardassian spy,

380
00:17:10,615 --> 00:17:12,950
drew on contemporary literature.

381
00:17:13,034 --> 00:17:16,037
The conception of Garak
was a character out of a Le Carré novel.

382
00:17:16,120 --> 00:17:20,666
Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy was a common
reference point in the writers' room,

383
00:17:20,750 --> 00:17:22,794
that Garak was created with that in mind.

384
00:17:22,877 --> 00:17:25,254
If you can't beat it, spy on it.

385
00:17:25,338 --> 00:17:27,840
[McFadden] Which may explain
Garak's other peculiarity.

386
00:17:27,924 --> 00:17:29,801
I have a clothing shop nearby.

387
00:17:29,884 --> 00:17:33,387
For Garak to end up on Deep Space Nine,

388
00:17:33,471 --> 00:17:35,014
and as a tailor,

389
00:17:35,097 --> 00:17:38,059
it's one of the most bizarre
dramatic situations.

390
00:17:38,142 --> 00:17:39,685
It's Dr. Bashir, isn't it?

391
00:17:39,769 --> 00:17:43,231
[McFadden] Alexander Siddig
provided Star Trek with, hmm,

392
00:17:43,314 --> 00:17:46,526
arguably its first truly dashing doctor

393
00:17:46,609 --> 00:17:49,612
as its chief medical officer,
Julian Bashir.

394
00:17:49,695 --> 00:17:54,325
Dr. Bashir is this wide-eyed,
idealistic Starfleet officer.

395
00:17:54,408 --> 00:17:55,952
This is where the adventure is.

396
00:17:56,035 --> 00:17:57,662
Siddig, he was just terrific.

397
00:17:57,745 --> 00:18:00,122
I think we all agreed on him
as soon as he arrived.

398
00:18:00,206 --> 00:18:01,833
[McFadden]
Along with Irish actor Colm Meaney.

399
00:18:01,916 --> 00:18:03,042
Another neutrino disruption.

400
00:18:03,125 --> 00:18:06,003
[McFadden]
Who played Chief Engineer Miles O'Brien.

401
00:18:06,087 --> 00:18:07,296
[David Livingston]
He represented every man,

402
00:18:07,380 --> 00:18:10,383
you know, the working guy,
the guy who got his hands dirty.

403
00:18:10,466 --> 00:18:12,176
Even though
it was all this computerized stuff,

404
00:18:12,260 --> 00:18:14,053
you knew that he'd look good
with a wrench in his hand.

405
00:18:14,136 --> 00:18:17,890
[McFadden] There were a lot
of characters in the first episode,

406
00:18:17,974 --> 00:18:20,768
something that posed
quite a challenge for the director.

407
00:18:20,852 --> 00:18:22,937
What the hell is happening out there?

408
00:18:23,020 --> 00:18:28,067
Very often, directors on television
are trying to come in on budget.

409
00:18:28,150 --> 00:18:29,777
They got a lot of pressure,

410
00:18:29,861 --> 00:18:35,241
and they are going to try
to move you through as fast as possible.

411
00:18:35,324 --> 00:18:36,325
"That's good enough."

412
00:18:36,409 --> 00:18:38,870
[McFadden]
Well, they didn't come in on budget

413
00:18:38,953 --> 00:18:40,121
nor on schedule.

414
00:18:40,204 --> 00:18:42,331
Don't ask my opinion next time!

415
00:18:42,415 --> 00:18:45,793
[McFadden] So much so,
David fell behind with the feature-length,

416
00:18:45,877 --> 00:18:47,962
special effects-laden premiere.

417
00:18:48,045 --> 00:18:50,381
"Emissary" went over budget.
We went over schedule.

418
00:18:50,464 --> 00:18:51,924
This is outrageous!

419
00:18:52,008 --> 00:18:55,303
[McFadden] Paramount was soon
breathing down the young director's neck.

420
00:18:55,386 --> 00:19:00,141
He did get a lot of crap from the studio
about falling behind schedule

421
00:19:00,224 --> 00:19:01,934
and about going over budget.

422
00:19:02,018 --> 00:19:03,644
[McFadden]
But in David's defense...

423
00:19:03,728 --> 00:19:05,605
It's the hardest pilot I've ever done.

424
00:19:05,688 --> 00:19:08,691
And unfortunately,
the director has to take the wrath.

425
00:19:08,774 --> 00:19:09,942
It's show business.

426
00:19:10,026 --> 00:19:13,446
[McFadden] Exactly.
So what would the audience think?

427
00:19:16,157 --> 00:19:18,242
[Locutus]
You will disarm your weapons.

428
00:19:18,326 --> 00:19:19,994
[McFadden]
The pilot for Deep Space Nine

429
00:19:20,077 --> 00:19:23,664
premiered on January 3rd, 1993.

430
00:19:23,748 --> 00:19:25,583
And the music comes on.

431
00:19:25,666 --> 00:19:28,961
[theme music playing]

432
00:19:29,045 --> 00:19:30,379
It started very strongly.

433
00:19:32,214 --> 00:19:35,676
And all I could think of was,
"That's what we made?"

434
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,470
And I was impressed.
I was like, "Wow."

435
00:19:37,553 --> 00:19:40,681
I found it beautiful.
I found it powerful.

436
00:19:40,765 --> 00:19:43,184
[McFadden]
Critics lauded its ambition.

437
00:19:43,267 --> 00:19:46,354
And I think when we made it,
it was the most expensive pilot on record.

438
00:19:46,437 --> 00:19:47,647
A lot of money.

439
00:19:47,730 --> 00:19:49,982
[McFadden]
Twelve million dollars to be precise.

440
00:19:50,066 --> 00:19:51,359
[Mark A. Altman]
They spent so much money on the pilot

441
00:19:51,442 --> 00:19:53,903
that they didn't have
a lot of money after that.

442
00:19:53,986 --> 00:19:56,364
So they did a bunch of bottle shows
on the space station.

443
00:19:56,447 --> 00:20:01,285
[McFadden] Bottle shows are shot
primarily in one location to save money.

444
00:20:01,369 --> 00:20:03,371
And it fed into this mythology

445
00:20:03,454 --> 00:20:05,748
that this was a show
that boldly goes nowhere.

446
00:20:05,831 --> 00:20:09,001
[McFadden] While shooting
in one location reduced costs,

447
00:20:09,085 --> 00:20:11,921
the makeup budget
was going in the opposite direction.

448
00:20:12,004 --> 00:20:12,838
Oh.

449
00:20:13,631 --> 00:20:14,465
Oh.

450
00:20:14,548 --> 00:20:16,467
[McFadden]
Even by Star Trek standards,

451
00:20:16,550 --> 00:20:19,804
there were more alien races
than you could shake a phaser at.

452
00:20:19,887 --> 00:20:21,806
[Nemecek]
Klingons and Cardassians and Romulans,

453
00:20:21,889 --> 00:20:24,433
much less the Ferengi,
much less the aliens of the week.

454
00:20:24,517 --> 00:20:28,145
We grew in the writers' room to really
love the world-building of those cultures.

455
00:20:28,229 --> 00:20:30,731
Every episode gave you
another opportunity

456
00:20:30,815 --> 00:20:33,275
to discover something new,
discover something richer.

457
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,737
So we really got in
and built their worlds out

458
00:20:36,821 --> 00:20:40,533
in much bigger ways than
Next Gen or the original series.

459
00:20:40,616 --> 00:20:44,078
[McFadden] But the more alien stories
the writers dreamed up,

460
00:20:44,161 --> 00:20:46,872
the more makeup,
which was becoming...

461
00:20:46,956 --> 00:20:49,291
In a way, off-the-wall and kind of wacky,

462
00:20:49,375 --> 00:20:52,169
and it had so many challenges
that were so great.

463
00:20:52,253 --> 00:20:53,671
[McFadden]
And so expensive.

464
00:20:53,754 --> 00:20:57,675
Keeping up with the Cardassians
was proving costly.

465
00:20:57,758 --> 00:21:01,220
Well, the Cardassians were part
of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

466
00:21:01,303 --> 00:21:03,556
It was improved upon greatly.

467
00:21:03,639 --> 00:21:07,601
[McFadden] Improved upon by
master makeup magician Michael Westmore,

468
00:21:07,685 --> 00:21:10,813
who now had his hands very full
as head of makeup

469
00:21:10,896 --> 00:21:14,233
for The Next Generation
and Deep Space Nine.

470
00:21:14,316 --> 00:21:15,818
[Michael Westmore] We had a thing
called the Westmore Alien.

471
00:21:15,901 --> 00:21:19,822
The Westmore Alien
was boxes of noses and heads

472
00:21:19,905 --> 00:21:21,991
and ears
from previous aliens.

473
00:21:22,074 --> 00:21:24,035
That is good enough for me.

474
00:21:24,118 --> 00:21:26,829
[McFadden] But for
the non-randomly put together aliens...

475
00:21:26,912 --> 00:21:29,206
The Jem'Hadar are often
one step ahead of the Vorta.

476
00:21:29,290 --> 00:21:33,127
I always had something in Earth
that the people could associate with,

477
00:21:33,210 --> 00:21:34,503
but they didn't know.

478
00:21:34,587 --> 00:21:37,840
It's like the Jem'Hadar was a little bit
of dinosaur and rhinoceros.

479
00:21:37,923 --> 00:21:40,134
And you can see it's like,
"Where do you put the horn?"

480
00:21:40,217 --> 00:21:41,719
The horn was their hair
in the back of their head.

481
00:21:41,802 --> 00:21:45,181
[McFadden] For Michael,
Deep Space Nine 's aliens were his canvas.

482
00:21:45,264 --> 00:21:48,225
Did you tell him
about that slug inside of you?

483
00:21:48,309 --> 00:21:50,144
Yes, Benjamin, he knows I'm a Trill.

484
00:21:50,227 --> 00:21:53,773
[Westmore] With Terry Farrell,
I spotted them by hand.

485
00:21:53,856 --> 00:21:54,690
Take me 20 minutes.

486
00:21:54,774 --> 00:21:57,985
[McFadden] But most procedures
took quite a bit longer than that.

487
00:21:58,069 --> 00:22:02,531
That mother... outfit,
my makeup took over four hours.

488
00:22:02,615 --> 00:22:05,242
It was like being entombed.

489
00:22:05,326 --> 00:22:06,243
"Get me outta here."

490
00:22:06,327 --> 00:22:08,871
[McFadden]
For some, the rigorous makeup routine

491
00:22:08,954 --> 00:22:11,040
was just a way to get into character.

492
00:22:11,123 --> 00:22:13,042
[Visitor] They'd have us come in early,
get our makeup on,

493
00:22:13,125 --> 00:22:14,752
and wait for our scenes.

494
00:22:14,835 --> 00:22:17,296
So I would walk around Paramount,

495
00:22:17,379 --> 00:22:22,551
and it was one of the best ways
to prepare for being a Bajoran

496
00:22:22,635 --> 00:22:24,595
who's looked at with prejudice

497
00:22:24,678 --> 00:22:28,974
because no one was really aware
there was a new Star Trek filming.

498
00:22:29,058 --> 00:22:32,853
And I'd get double takes
and I'd get people looking at my nose.

499
00:22:32,937 --> 00:22:35,606
And after a while,
it would piss me off.

500
00:22:35,689 --> 00:22:36,857
It would be like, "What?"

501
00:22:36,941 --> 00:22:38,609
-[record scratches]
-[laughs]

502
00:22:38,692 --> 00:22:42,488
And that attitude
I definitely brought to Kira.

503
00:22:42,571 --> 00:22:46,283
Commander, let's not be confused here.
My loyalties are to Bajor.

504
00:22:46,367 --> 00:22:48,452
[McFadden]
Well, no one would question that.

505
00:22:48,536 --> 00:22:52,665
But when it came to what Nana was wearing,
well, that was a little on the nose.

506
00:22:52,748 --> 00:22:55,459
Bob Blackman
gave it such a look

507
00:22:55,543 --> 00:22:58,796
and such a texture to the whole show.

508
00:22:58,879 --> 00:23:00,798
[Robert Blackman]
Well, Nana, she needed to appeal

509
00:23:00,881 --> 00:23:03,884
to the 18 to 43-year-old group more,

510
00:23:03,968 --> 00:23:06,846
and so we put her
into a spandex-like fabric

511
00:23:06,929 --> 00:23:09,807
that was formfitting,
and she had a great figure.

512
00:23:09,890 --> 00:23:15,479
It's not necessarily comfortable.
I didn't love being in orange latex.

513
00:23:15,563 --> 00:23:17,731
Oh, I love a woman in uniform.

514
00:23:17,815 --> 00:23:20,901
[McFadden] But it wasn't just
Nana's uniform that was stretched thin.

515
00:23:20,985 --> 00:23:23,988
As season one turned into season two,

516
00:23:24,071 --> 00:23:25,990
the writers
were feeling stretched as well.

517
00:23:26,073 --> 00:23:28,951
We're still trying to repair all the
damage your forces did before they left.

518
00:23:29,034 --> 00:23:31,287
[Ronald D. Moore]
Because the station didn't go anywhere,

519
00:23:31,370 --> 00:23:33,664
stories that you did last week
we're still kind of with you this week

520
00:23:33,747 --> 00:23:35,291
'cause those people were still here.

521
00:23:35,374 --> 00:23:36,876
[McFadden]
And despite the clear instructions

522
00:23:36,959 --> 00:23:40,171
from the studio
regarding serialized plotlines...

523
00:23:40,254 --> 00:23:42,798
The studio absolutely said no.

524
00:23:42,882 --> 00:23:44,675
[McFadden]
There was really no way to avoid it.

525
00:23:44,758 --> 00:23:47,636
[Moore]
As a result, you had ongoing relationships

526
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,931
and ongoing stories
that you had to pay attention to.

527
00:23:51,015 --> 00:23:54,393
[McFadden] And despite Ira
clearly starting to get his way,

528
00:23:54,476 --> 00:23:56,645
the audience wasn't so sure.

529
00:23:56,729 --> 00:23:59,690
There were a lot of people
who didn't like the way it was going,

530
00:23:59,773 --> 00:24:01,233
the fact that it was serialized.

531
00:24:01,317 --> 00:24:03,861
[McFadden]
A defiant slap in the face to the studio,

532
00:24:03,944 --> 00:24:05,654
which promptly
slapped the show right back

533
00:24:05,738 --> 00:24:08,115
because as they initially said...

534
00:24:08,199 --> 00:24:11,076
These shows were not necessarily
gonna be syndicated in order,

535
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,996
and they wanted standalone episodes.

536
00:24:14,079 --> 00:24:15,664
[McFadden]
Which meant for viewers...

537
00:24:15,748 --> 00:24:17,750
Who knows when
you're gonna be able to see it,

538
00:24:17,833 --> 00:24:19,543
much less when you can record it.

539
00:24:19,627 --> 00:24:21,795
A lot of the audience gave up.

540
00:24:21,879 --> 00:24:25,424
[McFadden] Poor ratings
confirmed Paramount's worst fears.

541
00:24:25,507 --> 00:24:27,468
[Moore] The studio
was concerned about the ratings.

542
00:24:27,551 --> 00:24:29,637
They wanted something that was equaling

543
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,932
and then ideally surpassing
Next Generation.

544
00:24:33,015 --> 00:24:35,226
[McFadden]
Well, as it happens,

545
00:24:35,309 --> 00:24:38,979
The Next Generation
was ending its seven-year run,

546
00:24:39,104 --> 00:24:43,567
leaving Deep Space Nine adrift
and all by its lonesome.

547
00:24:43,651 --> 00:24:45,778
Now I know we're doomed.

548
00:24:45,861 --> 00:24:48,072
[Nemecek] For all the fans at the time
who loved to say,

549
00:24:48,155 --> 00:24:51,075
"Oh, yeah, DS9,
it's the show that doesn't go anywhere."

550
00:24:51,158 --> 00:24:52,701
Because there wasn't a starship,

551
00:24:52,785 --> 00:24:56,497
it had a little trouble finding
its place as a Star Trek show.

552
00:24:56,580 --> 00:24:59,625
[McFadden] Paramount wanted more
from its most valuable property.

553
00:24:59,708 --> 00:25:02,002
They wanted some change.
They wanted to see a spike in the ratings.

554
00:25:02,086 --> 00:25:04,255
They want to see
bigger popularity for the series.

555
00:25:04,338 --> 00:25:07,800
[McFadden] They wanted to match
the success of Next Generation.

556
00:25:07,883 --> 00:25:12,304
And short of importing key personnel
over from The Next Generation,

557
00:25:12,388 --> 00:25:13,472
Deep Space Nine...

558
00:25:13,555 --> 00:25:17,851
Actually, maybe they should bring
some people over from The Next Generation.

559
00:25:17,935 --> 00:25:20,312
Like senior writer Ron Moore.

560
00:25:20,396 --> 00:25:24,775
When I came on in the third season,
I was really a little burned out at TNG

561
00:25:24,858 --> 00:25:28,195
by the time the show ended,
and I was happy and grateful

562
00:25:28,279 --> 00:25:29,780
to start doing something new,

563
00:25:29,863 --> 00:25:31,282
and it was
a very different challenge, you know,

564
00:25:31,365 --> 00:25:33,784
and I was really energized by it.

565
00:25:33,867 --> 00:25:36,704
[McFadden]
Perhaps even a little defiant,

566
00:25:36,787 --> 00:25:39,623
an issue that Rick Berman,
the keeper of Gene's vision,

567
00:25:39,707 --> 00:25:41,458
was more than aware of.

568
00:25:41,542 --> 00:25:45,504
You know, he knew we'd been straining
at the leash for quite a while,

569
00:25:45,587 --> 00:25:48,340
and now Gene's gone,
and I think he just sensed that,

570
00:25:48,424 --> 00:25:52,553
"Okay, these guys are wild people,
they'll just, like, destroy this thing,"

571
00:25:52,636 --> 00:25:54,930
if he didn't hold the reins really tight.

572
00:25:55,014 --> 00:25:58,309
[McFadden]
And in Ron Moore's first defiant act...

573
00:25:58,392 --> 00:26:02,855
They created the Defiant
so they could go away from the station.

574
00:26:02,938 --> 00:26:05,816
Release docking clamps.
Aft thrusters at one quarter.

575
00:26:05,899 --> 00:26:07,651
Port and starboard at station keeping.

576
00:26:07,735 --> 00:26:10,446
[McFadden]
So Star Trek pimped its own ride

577
00:26:10,529 --> 00:26:13,532
with a brand-new battleship
and a revised mission.

578
00:26:13,615 --> 00:26:16,577
"Let's give Sisko a ship.
Let's see him getting out there."

579
00:26:16,660 --> 00:26:18,203
The Defiant was a prototype,

580
00:26:18,287 --> 00:26:21,373
the first ship in what would have been
a new Federation battlefleet.

581
00:26:21,457 --> 00:26:23,751
[McFadden] The ship was new,
but in launching it,

582
00:26:23,834 --> 00:26:27,046
Star Trek
was actually returning to its roots.

583
00:26:27,129 --> 00:26:28,964
Standby weapons and shields.

584
00:26:29,048 --> 00:26:31,842
"Oh, look, it's the Star Trek crew
getting off on a ship and doing stuff."

585
00:26:31,925 --> 00:26:34,428
Well, that's the DNA
of Star Trek all along.

586
00:26:34,511 --> 00:26:35,888
Thank you for finally figuring that out.

587
00:26:36,847 --> 00:26:39,558
[McFadden]
And just to make sure no one missed

588
00:26:39,641 --> 00:26:41,560
that Star Trek was back on track,

589
00:26:41,643 --> 00:26:43,729
producers threw in a little shock and awe.

590
00:26:43,812 --> 00:26:44,646
Fire!

591
00:26:47,608 --> 00:26:49,735
"It's got Gatling gun phasers.
Oh, my God."

592
00:26:49,818 --> 00:26:51,987
[McFadden]
They may have gained some Gatling guns,

593
00:26:52,071 --> 00:26:55,157
but in season three, the big gun,

594
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,410
Michael Piller, the showrunner,
would depart,

595
00:26:58,494 --> 00:27:01,497
leaving Deep Space Nine 's future
uncertain.

596
00:27:08,754 --> 00:27:10,589
[McFadden]
With a new injection of talent

597
00:27:10,672 --> 00:27:13,425
from the wildly popular
Star Trek: The Next Generation...

598
00:27:13,509 --> 00:27:15,552
Wild. [laughs] We would go crazy.

599
00:27:15,636 --> 00:27:18,806
[McFadden] Showrunner Michael Piller
had left to work on

600
00:27:18,889 --> 00:27:21,225
other upcoming Star Trek projects.

601
00:27:21,308 --> 00:27:23,519
That was good news for Ira Behr,

602
00:27:23,602 --> 00:27:27,689
who would finally have his chance
to take the reins as showrunner.

603
00:27:27,773 --> 00:27:33,362
We gave more and more input to Ira Behr,
who was one of our top writers.

604
00:27:33,445 --> 00:27:35,489
So that took a lot of the load off of us.

605
00:27:35,572 --> 00:27:38,283
Ira, the blue-beard genius bear.

606
00:27:38,367 --> 00:27:39,576
He is phenomenal.

607
00:27:39,660 --> 00:27:43,497
You never know what color his beard
is going to be from day to day. [laughs]

608
00:27:43,580 --> 00:27:48,085
He was beyond energized.
He was just on fire.

609
00:27:48,168 --> 00:27:50,629
[McFadden]
And despite his bright beard...

610
00:27:50,712 --> 00:27:53,590
As the series went on,
they certainly went to darker places.

611
00:27:53,674 --> 00:27:55,384
They had a lot more shades of grey.

612
00:27:57,010 --> 00:28:00,097
[Visitor] Not everything
was black and white on our show.

613
00:28:00,180 --> 00:28:02,975
Not everything
is black and white in life.

614
00:28:03,058 --> 00:28:06,854
And I found it very true.

615
00:28:06,937 --> 00:28:09,690
[McFadden]
But Ira was shooting for more than truth.

616
00:28:10,732 --> 00:28:13,986
Ira wanted more warfare, more violence.

617
00:28:14,069 --> 00:28:15,154
[groans]

618
00:28:15,237 --> 00:28:17,823
My feeling was,
it strayed a little bit far

619
00:28:17,906 --> 00:28:21,160
from Gene's ideals

620
00:28:21,243 --> 00:28:25,330
and his hopes
of what the future was going to be,

621
00:28:25,414 --> 00:28:29,793
and as a result, Ira and I
had a number of disagreements.

622
00:28:29,877 --> 00:28:33,422
[McFadden] But the darker hues
of the rejuvenated Deep Space Nine

623
00:28:33,505 --> 00:28:36,508
seemed to leave its audience
in a dark place too.

624
00:28:36,592 --> 00:28:39,178
[Nemecek] "We've added the Defiant
in the mix. Whoo, action."

625
00:28:39,261 --> 00:28:41,263
And yet the viewer numbers,
the ratings,

626
00:28:41,346 --> 00:28:42,389
aren't going up.

627
00:28:42,473 --> 00:28:44,933
[McFadden]
And so for season four,

628
00:28:45,017 --> 00:28:47,728
they just brought in more people
from The Next Generation.

629
00:28:47,811 --> 00:28:51,148
Michael Dorn was brought over
to try and bring over some of that flavor.

630
00:28:51,231 --> 00:28:53,317
It must be an exciting prospect.

631
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,903
[Moore] They wanted to juice the show
in some capacity.

632
00:28:55,986 --> 00:28:57,654
So you know,
bring over a TNG character.

633
00:28:57,738 --> 00:28:58,572
I appreciate.

634
00:28:58,655 --> 00:29:01,742
[McFadden]
Unfortunately, Klingons are not known

635
00:29:01,825 --> 00:29:04,828
for blending easily
into their environments.

636
00:29:04,912 --> 00:29:07,539
[Lofton] It took a little while
for him to warm up to us.

637
00:29:07,623 --> 00:29:10,042
You know, 'cause
he was almost like his character.

638
00:29:10,125 --> 00:29:12,586
Like, "I will not talk to you
unless it's necessary."

639
00:29:12,669 --> 00:29:14,129
What more is there to say?

640
00:29:14,213 --> 00:29:19,551
My only fear was that they were
going to replace me with Michael Dorn.

641
00:29:19,635 --> 00:29:22,888
I really, really worried about that,
and that did not happen.

642
00:29:22,971 --> 00:29:26,266
[McFadden] For the writers,
Worf was just as unwelcome.

643
00:29:26,350 --> 00:29:29,019
I do apologize again
for the inconvenience.

644
00:29:29,102 --> 00:29:32,356
I felt the hand of the studio
forcing us to do something

645
00:29:32,439 --> 00:29:34,107
that wasn't organic to the show.

646
00:29:34,191 --> 00:29:36,944
"But if they feel this strongly,
let's try to make 'em happy

647
00:29:37,027 --> 00:29:38,904
so that we can do the things
we really wanna do."

648
00:29:38,987 --> 00:29:41,949
"Okay, let's find something interesting
and new to do with Worf

649
00:29:42,032 --> 00:29:44,034
that we haven't done,
you know, up until now."

650
00:29:44,117 --> 00:29:45,744
It will be a glorious adventure.

651
00:29:45,827 --> 00:29:47,120
[McFadden]
When Worf failed to bring

652
00:29:47,204 --> 00:29:50,666
The Next Generation -level ratings
to Deep Space Nine...

653
00:29:50,749 --> 00:29:52,292
It continues to struggle in the ratings.

654
00:29:52,376 --> 00:29:55,128
[McFadden] Not even Captain Sisko's
season-four makeover

655
00:29:55,212 --> 00:29:56,630
could bring in viewers.

656
00:29:56,713 --> 00:29:59,132
Avery was trying to find
the character at the same time,

657
00:29:59,216 --> 00:30:00,384
and part of it was his look.

658
00:30:00,467 --> 00:30:01,385
I couldn't agree more.

659
00:30:01,468 --> 00:30:04,096
[McFadden]
But the studio couldn't agree at all.

660
00:30:04,179 --> 00:30:06,723
[Moore] You know, Avery wanting
to shave his head and have the goatee,

661
00:30:06,807 --> 00:30:09,268
the studio,
they didn't wanna do that.

662
00:30:09,351 --> 00:30:10,852
Rick didn't wanna do that either.

663
00:30:10,936 --> 00:30:12,563
But it's Starfleet now on DS9 ,

664
00:30:12,646 --> 00:30:14,439
and he's gotta have
the clean-cut Starfleet look

665
00:30:14,523 --> 00:30:16,858
and have the, you know,
the pointed sideburns and the whole thing.

666
00:30:16,942 --> 00:30:19,987
It's like, "Come on."
[laughs] "Come on."

667
00:30:20,070 --> 00:30:23,115
[Moore] Ira fought really hard
to let him shave his head

668
00:30:23,198 --> 00:30:25,492
and let him have the goatee
because Ira felt

669
00:30:25,576 --> 00:30:28,120
it makes Avery comfortable in his skin.

670
00:30:28,203 --> 00:30:31,248
[McFadden]
After all, the more heroic the lead,

671
00:30:31,331 --> 00:30:34,167
the greater the chance
of hero-worthy ratings.

672
00:30:34,251 --> 00:30:37,129
Avery Brooks' biggest claim to fame
before DS9

673
00:30:37,212 --> 00:30:39,172
was playing Hawk on Spenser: For Hire.

674
00:30:39,256 --> 00:30:40,549
The name is Hawk.

675
00:30:40,632 --> 00:30:42,676
He was a hero in my community.

676
00:30:42,759 --> 00:30:43,594
Yeah.

677
00:30:43,677 --> 00:30:46,221
I prefer the bald Avery Brooks

678
00:30:46,305 --> 00:30:48,515
because there is power
in that baldness.

679
00:30:48,599 --> 00:30:50,225
And it gave him authority.

680
00:30:50,309 --> 00:30:53,604
There's no question,
bald with the goatee is the best Sisko.

681
00:30:53,687 --> 00:30:55,689
-[laughs]
-[McFadden] Well, he would say that.

682
00:30:55,772 --> 00:30:57,441
There's no guarantee of that!

683
00:30:57,524 --> 00:30:58,567
[McFadden]
Deep Space Nine

684
00:30:58,650 --> 00:31:01,737
had weathered
four years of disappointment.

685
00:31:01,820 --> 00:31:06,575
And neither Worf's whimsical ways,
Captain Sisko's shiny head,

686
00:31:06,658 --> 00:31:12,539
nor Ira's blue beard were enough
to stop Star Trek trying one last thing.

687
00:31:12,623 --> 00:31:16,585
Unfortunately,
it had nothing to do with Deep Space Nine.

688
00:31:16,668 --> 00:31:18,420
They got busy with the next show.

689
00:31:18,503 --> 00:31:22,507
[McFadden] Paramount had already
begun developing Star Trek: Voyager,

690
00:31:22,591 --> 00:31:25,135
putting DS9 further in the shade.

691
00:31:25,218 --> 00:31:29,348
Well, we were never the shiny, new thing,
so the idea of Voyager coming along

692
00:31:29,431 --> 00:31:32,309
was like, "Yeah, they're gonna try again
'cause they didn't get it with us."

693
00:31:32,392 --> 00:31:36,063
[Lofton] And because they were network,
they got more money,

694
00:31:36,146 --> 00:31:40,192
bigger budget, better trailers,
the whole gambit.

695
00:31:40,275 --> 00:31:41,735
Their craft service was amazing.

696
00:31:41,818 --> 00:31:44,488
I mean, everything that could be better
was better for Voyager.

697
00:31:44,571 --> 00:31:46,198
And we were sitting there like,
"Wait, wait a minute.

698
00:31:46,281 --> 00:31:47,658
We've been here for,
you know, all this time.

699
00:31:47,741 --> 00:31:49,368
How come we didn't get
the brand-new trailers?"

700
00:31:49,451 --> 00:31:51,203
[McFadden]
Not everything was better,

701
00:31:51,286 --> 00:31:53,747
but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

702
00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:58,502
Producer Ira Behr felt his show
had been abandoned by Paramount brass

703
00:31:58,585 --> 00:32:02,422
and left to fend for itself
in the war of ratings.

704
00:32:02,506 --> 00:32:06,927
He just felt like Voyager was getting
all the attention for being a network show

705
00:32:07,010 --> 00:32:10,847
and no one, he felt like no one
was paying attention to little DS9.

706
00:32:10,931 --> 00:32:14,059
[McFadden]
Oh, no one is paying attention you say?

707
00:32:14,142 --> 00:32:17,229
With Paramount no longer
breathing down its neck,

708
00:32:17,312 --> 00:32:21,274
DS9 had a unique opportunity
to spread his wings.

709
00:32:21,358 --> 00:32:23,985
[Moore] At some point,
Paramount just threw up their hands.

710
00:32:24,069 --> 00:32:26,029
Paramount left us alone.

711
00:32:26,113 --> 00:32:27,823
"The show's still dark.
The ratings are okay.

712
00:32:27,906 --> 00:32:29,533
They're never gonna pick up the ratings.

713
00:32:29,616 --> 00:32:31,910
Ah, whatever.
Let 'em do whatever they want."

714
00:32:31,993 --> 00:32:33,412
And they just started leaving us alone.

715
00:32:33,495 --> 00:32:38,166
DS9 got to do
pretty much what it wanted to do.

716
00:32:38,250 --> 00:32:43,380
[McFadden] With a free hand creatively,
DS9 was able to ask questions of itself,

717
00:32:43,463 --> 00:32:46,299
of Star Trek,
and ultimately of its audience.

718
00:32:46,383 --> 00:32:49,845
For example,
in the episode "Far Beyond the Stars,"

719
00:32:49,928 --> 00:32:52,013
they asked a lot of questions.

720
00:32:52,097 --> 00:32:53,432
-[tires screech]
-[groans]

721
00:32:53,515 --> 00:32:55,684
That was one of the most special episodes.

722
00:32:55,767 --> 00:32:57,227
Take a look at these readings.

723
00:32:59,146 --> 00:33:02,691
[boy] Hey, you gonna buy that or not?

724
00:33:02,774 --> 00:33:06,153
It was a period piece.
We're talking about police brutality.

725
00:33:06,236 --> 00:33:08,447
-[grunting]
-Stop it! Stop it!

726
00:33:08,530 --> 00:33:10,490
[Lofton]
This was a special subject matter

727
00:33:10,574 --> 00:33:12,701
that you wanted to make sure
you were getting right.

728
00:33:12,784 --> 00:33:17,038
[sobbing] I am a human being, damn it.

729
00:33:17,122 --> 00:33:19,708
In case you haven't been
paying attention to the headlines,

730
00:33:19,791 --> 00:33:21,209
but it hasn't gone away.

731
00:33:21,293 --> 00:33:23,420
Star Trek is the future.

732
00:33:23,503 --> 00:33:26,423
And that means that
these people who are writing these,

733
00:33:26,506 --> 00:33:30,010
they are hopeful in heart
that the future,

734
00:33:30,093 --> 00:33:33,805
people will eventually see the world
the way the world truly is.

735
00:33:33,889 --> 00:33:35,766
Things are going to change. They have to.

736
00:33:35,849 --> 00:33:38,393
[McFadden]
This was the original Star Trek ethos

737
00:33:38,477 --> 00:33:41,563
of infinite diversity, warts and all.

738
00:33:41,646 --> 00:33:42,981
[Penny Johnson Jerald]
The world full of people

739
00:33:43,064 --> 00:33:47,611
who have red skin, brown skin,
black skin, and white skin,

740
00:33:47,694 --> 00:33:50,781
and if any skin I left out,
that's in that too.

741
00:33:50,864 --> 00:33:54,534
[McFadden] But don't worry, Ira, Ron,
and the writers were not done yet.

742
00:33:54,618 --> 00:33:57,287
[Moore] "Let's push further
than anyone thinks we can.

743
00:33:57,370 --> 00:33:59,164
Let's challenge what Star Trek is.

744
00:33:59,247 --> 00:34:02,292
How good is the Federation?
Don't they have their own problems?

745
00:34:02,375 --> 00:34:04,920
What happens when they face
this kind of crisis? What about this?"

746
00:34:05,003 --> 00:34:08,173
[McFadden] Well, Ron was about
to get the chance to find out.

747
00:34:11,301 --> 00:34:13,220
[McFadden]
With Ira Behr in the driver's seat...

748
00:34:13,303 --> 00:34:17,641
That's when we really started to feel
like we were a sailing ship

749
00:34:17,724 --> 00:34:20,060
and Ira was at the wheel.

750
00:34:20,143 --> 00:34:22,604
[McFadden] A wheel that Ira
had been spinning in the background

751
00:34:22,687 --> 00:34:24,314
for quite awhile.

752
00:34:24,397 --> 00:34:25,857
Because if you remember...

753
00:34:25,941 --> 00:34:27,776
Ira got very involved

754
00:34:27,859 --> 00:34:33,198
in wanting to do
long strings of continuing episodes.

755
00:34:33,281 --> 00:34:36,201
The studio absolutely said no.

756
00:34:36,284 --> 00:34:38,370
[McFadden]
But with the studio's attention elsewhere,

757
00:34:38,453 --> 00:34:40,705
Ira really only had Rick to convince.

758
00:34:40,789 --> 00:34:42,541
That wouldn't be too much of a problem.

759
00:34:42,624 --> 00:34:45,377
Ira was really good
at pulling the wool over your eyes.

760
00:34:45,460 --> 00:34:51,424
He would say, "We're not gonna have
a continual long series of episodes

761
00:34:51,508 --> 00:34:54,511
that aren't standalone,"
and all of a sudden,

762
00:34:54,594 --> 00:34:55,595
they would occur.

763
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:59,224
[McFadden] Ira had planted the seed
of one such arc way back in season two.

764
00:34:59,307 --> 00:35:00,809
Right here.

765
00:35:00,892 --> 00:35:03,895
Let's just say, if you want to do business
in the Gamma Quadrant,

766
00:35:03,979 --> 00:35:06,606
you have to do business
with the Dominion.

767
00:35:06,690 --> 00:35:08,358
Uh, the Dominion?
What's that?

768
00:35:08,441 --> 00:35:11,653
[McFadden] With this
tiny mention of the Dominion,

769
00:35:11,736 --> 00:35:16,950
Ira would spawn one of Deep Space Nine 's
biggest arcing plotlines.

770
00:35:17,033 --> 00:35:18,827
You belong to the Dominion, don't you?

771
00:35:18,910 --> 00:35:21,580
[McFadden] Which would not only
fly in the face of the network's wishes...

772
00:35:21,663 --> 00:35:22,497
May it keep you strong.

773
00:35:22,581 --> 00:35:25,000
[McFadden] ...but possibly
Gene Roddenberry's as well.

774
00:35:25,083 --> 00:35:27,335
[Moore] The Dominion War,
Rick said so at the time,

775
00:35:27,419 --> 00:35:29,963
he said Gene would absolutely
have killed this story.

776
00:35:30,046 --> 00:35:32,841
But we were able to get it done
and we did talk him into it.

777
00:35:32,924 --> 00:35:36,052
And so, you know, even though
he would draw these lines,

778
00:35:36,136 --> 00:35:38,847
he was willing to kind of move
the lines and move the goal posts

779
00:35:38,930 --> 00:35:40,390
with us every once
in a while to kind of...

780
00:35:40,473 --> 00:35:43,018
'cause he could recognize
that this was a really good story.

781
00:35:43,101 --> 00:35:47,606
[McFadden] Ron Moore and Ira Behr
were waging a war on Star Trek tradition.

782
00:35:47,689 --> 00:35:50,901
They would push the series' boundaries
into new territory

783
00:35:50,984 --> 00:35:53,570
with a season-six
Dominion War episode

784
00:35:53,653 --> 00:35:57,073
that was unlike anything
Star Trek had done before.

785
00:35:57,157 --> 00:35:58,783
I can see where it all went wrong.

786
00:35:58,867 --> 00:36:01,870
"In the Pale Moonlight,"
it's a controversial episode.

787
00:36:01,953 --> 00:36:03,622
Michael Taylor wrote the first draft.

788
00:36:03,705 --> 00:36:05,916
[McFadden]
That's freelance writer Michael Taylor,

789
00:36:05,999 --> 00:36:08,084
who would later join the writing staff.

790
00:36:08,168 --> 00:36:11,296
We were having trouble making it work
and it got handed to me,

791
00:36:11,379 --> 00:36:13,381
and I came up
with the wraparound structure

792
00:36:13,465 --> 00:36:15,216
and Sisko talking to the camera.

793
00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:16,843
Captain's personal log.

794
00:36:16,927 --> 00:36:20,347
Recording a captain's log and that
that was gonna be the frame.

795
00:36:20,430 --> 00:36:25,393
Maybe if I just lay it all out in my log,
it'll finally make sense.

796
00:36:25,477 --> 00:36:28,980
[McFadden] Ron Moore thought the title
of the episode made sense too

797
00:36:29,064 --> 00:36:32,943
because everybody knows
about the pale moonlight, right?

798
00:36:33,026 --> 00:36:34,653
When I wrote that title,

799
00:36:34,736 --> 00:36:37,322
I was under the impression that
that was just a saying.

800
00:36:37,405 --> 00:36:39,741
You ever dance with the devil
in the pale moonlight?

801
00:36:39,824 --> 00:36:42,535
And everybody kept coming up to me
and saying,

802
00:36:42,619 --> 00:36:44,913
"Oh, so it's a Batman reference?"

803
00:36:44,996 --> 00:36:47,666
And I said, "No.
I mean, no, it's not about Batman .

804
00:36:47,749 --> 00:36:49,334
It's just about the phrase,
about the saying,

805
00:36:49,417 --> 00:36:50,835
'Dance with the devil
in the pale moonlight.'"

806
00:36:50,919 --> 00:36:53,964
And then later came to find that,
well, it's not really a phrase.

807
00:36:54,047 --> 00:36:57,092
It's really just something
that was said in Batman .

808
00:36:57,175 --> 00:36:58,551
I just like the sound of it.

809
00:36:58,635 --> 00:37:00,637
[McFadden]
Whatever Ron thought it meant,

810
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:03,223
the episode was a radical departure,

811
00:37:03,306 --> 00:37:06,434
with Star Trek 's heroes
taking a devilish turn.

812
00:37:06,518 --> 00:37:09,646
[Sisko] I was going to bring
the Romulan's into the war.

813
00:37:09,729 --> 00:37:11,147
[McFadden]
The Dominion War.

814
00:37:11,231 --> 00:37:13,650
With the Federation losing,

815
00:37:13,733 --> 00:37:18,613
Captain Sisko conspires with Garak
in a dance of disinformation.

816
00:37:18,697 --> 00:37:21,825
It was willing to push characters
into darker,

817
00:37:21,908 --> 00:37:25,161
more ambiguous territory
than the other Star Treks did.

818
00:37:25,245 --> 00:37:31,042
You have Sisko and Garak both engaged
in this really untoward tale of darkness.

819
00:37:31,126 --> 00:37:36,423
And it may be a very messy,
very bloody business.

820
00:37:36,506 --> 00:37:38,383
When Sisko asks him for help,

821
00:37:38,466 --> 00:37:42,637
he has a pretty good idea of the lengths
to which Garak is going to go.

822
00:37:42,721 --> 00:37:46,808
Sometimes,
fairness doesn't win the day

823
00:37:46,891 --> 00:37:49,811
and there are dirty tricks
that have to be used.

824
00:37:49,894 --> 00:37:54,733
You knew I could do those things
that you weren't capable of doing.

825
00:37:54,816 --> 00:37:58,528
[McFadden] So perhaps
for the first time in Star Trek's history,

826
00:37:58,611 --> 00:38:01,948
the dirty tricks
weren't being played by the villains,

827
00:38:02,032 --> 00:38:04,659
and the consequences were deadly.

828
00:38:07,203 --> 00:38:10,874
[McFadden] "In the Pale Moonlight"
was a Star Trek episode unlike any other.

829
00:38:10,957 --> 00:38:13,626
[Moore]
And it is about a disinformation campaign.

830
00:38:13,710 --> 00:38:15,837
It's about fake news
that the good guys use

831
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,089
in order to start a war, you know,

832
00:38:18,173 --> 00:38:20,550
or a different part of the war
with the Romulans.

833
00:38:20,633 --> 00:38:23,470
[McFadden] Five years before
the second war in Iraq,

834
00:38:23,553 --> 00:38:28,391
Star Trek actually foreshadowed
the rise of manufactured truths.

835
00:38:28,475 --> 00:38:29,893
It's a fake!

836
00:38:29,976 --> 00:38:30,810
"It's a fake!"

837
00:38:30,894 --> 00:38:32,062
"It's a fake!"

838
00:38:32,145 --> 00:38:33,730
"It's a fake!"

839
00:38:33,813 --> 00:38:38,151
We're dealing with fake news
and the use of fake news.

840
00:38:38,234 --> 00:38:41,738
How, you know, news and information
could be used by governments

841
00:38:41,821 --> 00:38:44,324
and people in power
to get what they wanted,

842
00:38:44,407 --> 00:38:48,912
and you don't usually see
the good guys do that on television.

843
00:38:48,995 --> 00:38:51,289
And if I had to do it all over again...

844
00:38:52,582 --> 00:38:53,792
I would.

845
00:38:53,875 --> 00:38:56,544
[McFadden]
Freed from the traditional scruples,

846
00:38:56,628 --> 00:39:01,091
"In the Pale Moonlight" took fans
into the darkest territory of them all.

847
00:39:01,174 --> 00:39:02,801
Garak kills the forger.

848
00:39:02,884 --> 00:39:03,885
I mean, he murders him.

849
00:39:03,968 --> 00:39:06,471
And I deliberately played it off camera

850
00:39:06,554 --> 00:39:09,974
because the episode as a whole
is already pretty dark.

851
00:39:10,058 --> 00:39:13,186
I'll be along shortly to say hello.

852
00:39:13,269 --> 00:39:15,772
And I just sort of had an intuitive sense

853
00:39:15,855 --> 00:39:20,693
that if I have one of our semi-regulars
who we love, in cold blood,

854
00:39:20,777 --> 00:39:24,906
murder another character on camera,
it was gonna be a whole thing.

855
00:39:24,989 --> 00:39:28,326
So I just buried it in the story
and it happens off camera.

856
00:39:28,409 --> 00:39:31,955
And I just knew that
that would make it easier to slip by.

857
00:39:32,038 --> 00:39:35,917
The joy of playing Garak
was derived so much

858
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,463
from his lack of what we think
as being moral or ethical.

859
00:39:40,547 --> 00:39:42,715
Well, I suppose that depends
on how you look at it.

860
00:39:42,799 --> 00:39:46,344
[McFadden] And the captain too
was suddenly Machiavellian,

861
00:39:46,427 --> 00:39:49,514
light years from
Star Trek 's original hero.

862
00:39:49,597 --> 00:39:52,767
[Moore] Sisko does things in that show
that you can't imagine Kirk doing

863
00:39:52,851 --> 00:39:54,978
or any of the other Starship captains.

864
00:39:55,061 --> 00:39:58,731
We took that character pretty far
and engaged in deception

865
00:39:58,815 --> 00:40:02,193
and murder and, you know, criminality
and all kinds of things,

866
00:40:02,318 --> 00:40:03,653
in service of a higher goal,

867
00:40:03,736 --> 00:40:05,947
and I think that's an interesting place
to take a character.

868
00:40:06,030 --> 00:40:06,948
[groans]

869
00:40:07,031 --> 00:40:08,908
[McFadden] And when Sisko's
dance with the devil...

870
00:40:08,992 --> 00:40:10,160
Get up!

871
00:40:10,243 --> 00:40:11,494
[McFadden]
...spins out of control...

872
00:40:11,578 --> 00:40:12,412
You killed him!

873
00:40:12,495 --> 00:40:13,872
[McFadden]
...he faces a reckoning.

874
00:40:13,955 --> 00:40:17,792
Sisko might have even expected it
to have been a worse price.

875
00:40:17,876 --> 00:40:20,962
Like, Cisco might have had a deeper,
darker fear in the back of his head that,

876
00:40:21,045 --> 00:40:24,257
"Once I go to Garak,
who knows what the price is gonna be?"

877
00:40:24,340 --> 00:40:27,510
You may have just saved
the entire Alpha Quadrant,

878
00:40:27,594 --> 00:40:32,223
and all it cost was the life
of one Romulan senator,

879
00:40:32,307 --> 00:40:33,474
one criminal...

880
00:40:34,893 --> 00:40:39,856
...and the self-respect
of one Starfleet officer.

881
00:40:39,939 --> 00:40:42,400
[McFadden]
And so we see a Starfleet captain

882
00:40:42,483 --> 00:40:46,112
forced to make peace with himself
before his enemies.

883
00:40:46,196 --> 00:40:50,074
So I will learn to live with it.

884
00:40:50,158 --> 00:40:52,952
At the end, when he says,
"And I can live with it,"

885
00:40:53,036 --> 00:40:55,914
he can live with the fact
that he made those choices.

886
00:40:55,997 --> 00:40:57,332
That's the moral to the story.

887
00:40:57,415 --> 00:40:58,875
And he embraces it,

888
00:40:58,958 --> 00:41:01,336
and he hates himself for it
at the same time.

889
00:41:01,419 --> 00:41:03,254
I can live with it.

890
00:41:03,338 --> 00:41:07,634
Someone breaks the fourth wall
and speaks directly into the camera,

891
00:41:07,717 --> 00:41:09,135
that's the deepest you can go.

892
00:41:09,219 --> 00:41:12,430
What makes Sisko such a great leader
is that he deliberates

893
00:41:12,513 --> 00:41:14,432
and he tries to do the right thing

894
00:41:14,515 --> 00:41:17,185
even when it means
that he has to do the wrong thing.

895
00:41:17,268 --> 00:41:19,979
It's a great morality tale
of "how far is too far?"

896
00:41:20,063 --> 00:41:22,649
[Moore]
I think you go with them on the ride.

897
00:41:22,732 --> 00:41:25,151
You feel the pressure,
you understand the stakes

898
00:41:25,235 --> 00:41:27,862
of this galactic war
that's happening.

899
00:41:27,946 --> 00:41:30,865
Step by step, you understand
why they keep doing what they're doing,

900
00:41:30,949 --> 00:41:32,867
even as part of you is repelled by them.

901
00:41:32,951 --> 00:41:34,786
The truth is,
you can live with it too,

902
00:41:34,869 --> 00:41:36,871
and that says something about you
and that says...

903
00:41:36,955 --> 00:41:39,874
and that's a fantastic,
interesting interaction

904
00:41:39,958 --> 00:41:41,626
between show and audience.

905
00:41:41,709 --> 00:41:45,421
When it deals with complex issues
and dives into things that are meaningful,

906
00:41:45,505 --> 00:41:47,048
that's when Star Trek really works.

907
00:41:47,131 --> 00:41:49,300
[Moore]
Only Deep Space Nine could do that,

908
00:41:49,384 --> 00:41:52,553
and I think it is one of the very best
Deep Space Nine episodes.

909
00:41:52,637 --> 00:41:54,055
I'm very proud of that.

910
00:41:54,138 --> 00:41:56,808
[McFadden]
But no matter how proud or how good,

911
00:41:56,891 --> 00:41:58,559
ratings remained uneven

912
00:41:58,643 --> 00:42:02,021
as one of Star Trek 's
most creatively ambitious chapters

913
00:42:02,105 --> 00:42:03,314
neared its end.

914
00:42:03,398 --> 00:42:06,859
We sort of knew that it probably
was only gonna go one more year.

915
00:42:06,943 --> 00:42:08,820
TNG got seven years.

916
00:42:08,903 --> 00:42:12,282
Stood to reason that we probably
weren't gonna get more than seven years

917
00:42:12,365 --> 00:42:15,618
'cause we weren't ratings-wise
as successful as they were.

918
00:42:15,702 --> 00:42:19,789
[McFadden] With the end in sight,
they began tying up all the loose ends.

919
00:42:19,872 --> 00:42:22,834
You're trying to give
these actors a satisfying end.

920
00:42:22,917 --> 00:42:25,128
There was a melancholy sadness to it.

921
00:42:25,211 --> 00:42:27,338
"Next year's your senior year
and that's gonna be it."

922
00:42:27,422 --> 00:42:30,466
[McFadden] All the pieces were in place
for Deep Space Nine 's

923
00:42:30,550 --> 00:42:34,178
seventh and last season
to go out with a bang.

924
00:42:34,262 --> 00:42:39,392
Unfortunately, before they
could even start, there was a bombshell.

925
00:42:39,475 --> 00:42:41,602
Heading into its final season,

926
00:42:41,686 --> 00:42:46,399
Deep Space Nine was dealing
with the loss of a key cast member.

927
00:42:46,482 --> 00:42:48,985
Dax would not see a seventh season.

928
00:42:49,068 --> 00:42:51,404
You go into a seventh season,
you know it's gonna be your last season,

929
00:42:51,487 --> 00:42:54,907
so the network isn't gonna start throwing
more money at you because this is it.

930
00:42:54,991 --> 00:42:56,659
So she got squeezed.

931
00:42:56,743 --> 00:42:58,286
[McFadden]
Unimpressed with her offer,

932
00:42:58,369 --> 00:43:00,872
actress Terry Farrell checked out.

933
00:43:00,955 --> 00:43:04,208
DS9 's writers had a problem
they never saw coming.

934
00:43:04,292 --> 00:43:07,253
We made no accommodation
for what it would mean

935
00:43:07,337 --> 00:43:11,591
to pull Dax as a character completely out
of the structure of the show,

936
00:43:11,674 --> 00:43:15,219
and I don't think any of us
were really ready to do that.

937
00:43:15,303 --> 00:43:16,971
[McFadden]
Terry Farrell walked out.

938
00:43:17,055 --> 00:43:21,476
But if you can't change the character,
you can always change the actress.

939
00:43:21,559 --> 00:43:26,397
And Nicole de Boer wormed her way in,
so to speak, as the same character

940
00:43:26,481 --> 00:43:28,191
but of course in a different body.

941
00:43:28,274 --> 00:43:30,193
There was something of a scramble.

942
00:43:30,276 --> 00:43:32,320
And it became, "Oh, my God.
Okay, wait a minute, how does this work?

943
00:43:32,403 --> 00:43:33,446
How are we gonna go about this?"

944
00:43:33,529 --> 00:43:34,947
And there was a certain like,
"Oh, my God."

945
00:43:35,031 --> 00:43:37,575
[McFadden]
Basically, an alien slug named Dax

946
00:43:37,658 --> 00:43:41,454
found a new alien host,
and Nicole was that host.

947
00:43:41,537 --> 00:43:43,206
It's me.

948
00:43:43,289 --> 00:43:44,123
Dax.

949
00:43:44,207 --> 00:43:46,584
[McFadden]
But she had some questions.

950
00:43:46,667 --> 00:43:49,128
"What kind of alien is it?" [laughs]

951
00:43:49,212 --> 00:43:51,964
Because I had done
some prosthetic work before

952
00:43:52,048 --> 00:43:53,633
on an episode of Outer Limits.

953
00:43:53,716 --> 00:43:55,343
[McFadden]
Which had proved to be at the outer limits

954
00:43:55,426 --> 00:43:57,136
of Nicole's tolerance for makeup.

955
00:43:57,220 --> 00:44:00,681
I would not probably be able to do that
on a daily basis,

956
00:44:00,765 --> 00:44:03,434
so he said, "Don't worry,
it's very minimal makeup,"

957
00:44:03,518 --> 00:44:05,269
and I said, "Okay, I'd love that."

958
00:44:05,353 --> 00:44:08,606
[McFadden] It's a relatively complicated
symbiotic relationship.

959
00:44:08,689 --> 00:44:11,609
I was told to look at it
as a new character,

960
00:44:11,692 --> 00:44:14,112
although I would have
the memories of Jadzia

961
00:44:14,195 --> 00:44:17,698
as well as all these other people before
with the symbiont.

962
00:44:17,782 --> 00:44:20,618
[McFadden]
So Nicole had a lot on her mind.

963
00:44:20,701 --> 00:44:23,871
And the whole thing is that
she wasn't trained to be joined,

964
00:44:23,955 --> 00:44:25,706
so that is going to be
complicated for her.

965
00:44:25,790 --> 00:44:27,959
People need time
to get over losing Jadzia.

966
00:44:28,042 --> 00:44:31,129
[McFadden] But an even more complicated
relationship for Worf.

967
00:44:31,212 --> 00:44:33,714
Now, of course,
Worf wasn't too excited about me.

968
00:44:33,798 --> 00:44:35,383
I was your wife.

969
00:44:35,466 --> 00:44:36,717
You are not Jadzia.

970
00:44:36,801 --> 00:44:40,555
[McFadden] A fact that allowed
the writers to explore new territory.

971
00:44:40,638 --> 00:44:43,099
"Oh, there's an opportunity
to do different Dax stories,

972
00:44:43,182 --> 00:44:44,016
change relationships.

973
00:44:44,100 --> 00:44:45,435
Now she has a different host."

974
00:44:45,518 --> 00:44:48,020
We just kind of embraced it
as an opportunity to expand

975
00:44:48,104 --> 00:44:49,397
instead of contract.

976
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,107
[McFadden]
Now in its final season,

977
00:44:51,190 --> 00:44:54,527
the production
raced to complete its 26 episodes.

978
00:44:54,610 --> 00:44:55,903
They're getting kind of tired.

979
00:44:55,987 --> 00:44:58,614
It's, like, the seventh season,
and the hours were grueling.

980
00:44:58,698 --> 00:45:02,743
For at least 16 hours a day and longer,

981
00:45:02,827 --> 00:45:04,120
it was insane.

982
00:45:04,203 --> 00:45:06,956
There were people there
that didn't see their children grow up.

983
00:45:07,039 --> 00:45:10,585
[McFadden] And it all came together
for the very last episode.

984
00:45:10,668 --> 00:45:13,254
You always said I looked good in a tuxedo.

985
00:45:13,337 --> 00:45:15,548
They just went where
they felt the story took them

986
00:45:15,631 --> 00:45:19,510
and then finally landed this sucker
at the end with an amazing finale.

987
00:45:19,594 --> 00:45:22,722
[McFadden] In arguably
the biggest story arc of them all,

988
00:45:22,805 --> 00:45:25,141
teased from the very first episode,

989
00:45:25,224 --> 00:45:29,854
Captain Sisko finally takes his place
among the Bajoran Prophets.

990
00:45:29,979 --> 00:45:32,356
Your time of trial has ended.

991
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,150
[McFadden]
The Dominion War comes to an end,

992
00:45:34,233 --> 00:45:37,653
and the crew live it up
for one last night.

993
00:45:37,737 --> 00:45:40,198
To the best crew any captain ever had.

994
00:45:40,281 --> 00:45:43,701
People like myself, other members
of the support staff,

995
00:45:43,784 --> 00:45:45,912
got to be in the episode.

996
00:45:45,995 --> 00:45:49,540
So all of us were the extras
for those scenes,

997
00:45:49,624 --> 00:45:53,878
and Ira planned it perfectly to be shot
the very last day of shooting.

998
00:45:53,961 --> 00:45:55,421
It was just an amazing day.

999
00:45:55,505 --> 00:45:57,215
This one's from the heart.

1000
00:45:57,298 --> 00:45:59,967
[McFadden] The final episode
of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

1001
00:46:00,051 --> 00:46:05,723
went out on June 2nd, 1999,
leaving the audience wanting more.

1002
00:46:05,806 --> 00:46:08,726
Which now, thanks to streaming,
they can have.

1003
00:46:08,809 --> 00:46:14,398
DS9 has definitely stood up over time,
more so than the other shows,

1004
00:46:14,482 --> 00:46:19,612
which is ironic because, at the time,
it was thought of as the lesser show.

1005
00:46:19,695 --> 00:46:23,824
[McFadden] And as it happens,
that controversial serialized format

1006
00:46:23,908 --> 00:46:25,993
turned out to be ahead of its time,

1007
00:46:26,077 --> 00:46:29,080
and the vast story arc
gave the show a long life.

1008
00:46:29,163 --> 00:46:31,290
Today, the definition
of the word "streaming"

1009
00:46:31,374 --> 00:46:33,209
shows that people watch these shows

1010
00:46:33,292 --> 00:46:36,629
because they are continuing arcs,
continuing storylines.

1011
00:46:36,712 --> 00:46:42,051
I think the fact that the way
people view shows is different,

1012
00:46:42,134 --> 00:46:48,140
and binge-watching a show
is the way DS9 needed to be seen.

1013
00:46:48,224 --> 00:46:51,185
And Deep Space Nine
is bigger than ever now.

1014
00:46:51,269 --> 00:46:53,271
It's found a whole new following.

1015
00:46:53,354 --> 00:46:57,692
[McFadden] Routinely landing at the top
of the best Star Trek series lists,

1016
00:46:57,775 --> 00:47:02,446
thanks largely to its wide-ranging
and eclectic storylines.

1017
00:47:02,530 --> 00:47:06,826
And now I get a lot
of transgender people coming up to me

1018
00:47:06,909 --> 00:47:09,412
and saying, you know,
"Do you know how important

1019
00:47:09,495 --> 00:47:11,706
this character has been for me?

1020
00:47:11,789 --> 00:47:14,709
It was someone I could turn to
that was like me."

1021
00:47:14,792 --> 00:47:19,422
Out of the entire franchise,
I think Deep Space Nine was the best

1022
00:47:19,505 --> 00:47:23,384
because it dealt with issues that
a whole bunch of people were facing,

1023
00:47:23,467 --> 00:47:24,802
especially people of color.

1024
00:47:24,885 --> 00:47:27,096
[McFadden]
With Captain Benjamin Sisko,

1025
00:47:27,179 --> 00:47:29,890
Avery Brooks had made Star Trek history.

1026
00:47:29,974 --> 00:47:32,935
Avery, he just put his heart
and soul into it.

1027
00:47:33,019 --> 00:47:36,188
It was really stunning to watch.

1028
00:47:36,272 --> 00:47:37,315
[Lofton]
He taught me a lot.

1029
00:47:37,398 --> 00:47:39,358
The advice that he gave me
along the way

1030
00:47:39,442 --> 00:47:42,570
were life lessons
that just make you a better man.

1031
00:47:43,779 --> 00:47:48,743
He, by example, led in so many ways
that I believe without it,

1032
00:47:48,826 --> 00:47:50,286
I would have been on a different path.

1033
00:47:50,369 --> 00:47:53,289
[McFadden] As deep Space Nine
completed its mission,

1034
00:47:53,372 --> 00:47:56,626
a new Star Trek show
was already on air,

1035
00:47:56,709 --> 00:47:59,545
with its own first to boast of.

1036
00:47:59,629 --> 00:48:03,049
I was the first female captain.
It was an established fact.

1037
00:48:03,132 --> 00:48:04,216
You're serious.

1038
00:48:04,300 --> 00:48:05,134
Very.

1039
00:48:05,217 --> 00:48:09,138
[McFadden] But like all firsts,
this one wouldn't come easy.

1040
00:48:09,221 --> 00:48:12,350
This was an unprecedented moment
in the history of television.

1041
00:48:13,351 --> 00:48:15,436
[theme music playing]