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(birds chirping)
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Alex Gibney: In 2002, from
a secret location in Thailand,
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CIA officers
cabled headquarters
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with details
about the interrogation
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of a prisoner.
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Techniques to be used
might cause him to die,
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in which case
he would be cremated
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so his body
would not be found.
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But if he survived,
there was a concern.
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Would the agency give
reasonable assurances
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that the prisoner
would remain in isolation,
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possibly forever?
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Headquarters reassured
the team.
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The detainee "will never
be placed in a situation
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"where he has
any significant contact
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"with others
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"and should remain
incommunicado
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for the remainder
of his life."
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♪ ♪
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Nearly 20 years later,
the CIA has kept its promise.
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The detainee lives
in Camp 5
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in Guantanamo Prison
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on the southeastern tip
of Cuba,
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a few hundred yards
from an ocean
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he can hear
but is not allowed to see.
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(waves crashing)
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He's never been charged
with a crime.
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He's never been permitted
to challenge his detention.
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He's been told
that will never change.
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(somber music playing)
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(sirens wailing,
people shouting)
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(loud boom)
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(rumbling)
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(siren wailing)
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Alberto J. Mora:
There was a fear and fury
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that gripped the nation
after 9/11.
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I was in the Pentagon
the day the aircraft hit
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and then worked in the Pentagon
for the next four years.
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There was the fear
that the next attack
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would come tomorrow
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or that afternoon
or in the next half hour.
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And the fury
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at the sheer inhumanity
of 3,000 murders.
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There was
a bedrock conviction
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that the individuals
who had planned this attack
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and executed it
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had opted
out of the human race.
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I don't think there was
an American who didn't feel
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that we had
to go back hard.
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That was
the national emotion.
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And I think in the process,
we lost our bearings in time.
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Lawrence Wilkerson:
We did some really
stupid things
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in those first few days
based on our fear
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and based on an attempt
to try and secure the people.
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There was this expectation
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we're going
to get hit again,
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it's going to hit
the White House
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is going to hit
the State Department.
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I looked out my window
and saw National Airport,
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and I said, whoa,
that's about ten seconds away.
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And I didn't want to stay
in my office, you know.
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That's how,
that's how frenetic
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the atmosphere was
at that time.
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I think those
first few days
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were a struggle
in the mind
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for the President
and the Vice President.
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They had failed
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to the order
of Pearl Harbor.
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So they were very afraid
the American people
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were going
to throw them out.
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I want you all to know
this nation stands
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with the good people
of New York City
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and New Jersey
and Connecticut
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as we mourn the loss
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of thousands
of our citizens.
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Person (in crowd):
George, we can't hear you!
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President George W. Bush:
I can hear you.
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(cheering)
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I can hear you, the rest
of the world hears you,
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and the people who knocked
these buildings down
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will hear
all of us soon.
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(cheering)
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(whooping)
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Crowd (chanting):
USA! USA!
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USA! USA!
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USA!
USA!
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USA! USA!
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USA! USA!
USA! USA!
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USA! USA! USA!
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Gibney:
In its righteous anger,
America would strike back...
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with unmatched
fury and force.
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(explosions booming)
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The invasion
of Afghanistan.
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Peter Jennings:
If you're just tuning in
for the first time
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to watch another program,
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it-it's hard to begin
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where to tell you
how much has happened today.
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Gibney:
Shock and awe in Iraq...
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(people cheering)
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...which led to ISIS.
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Which led to more terror
and more targeted killing.
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The global war on terror
has cost us
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eight trillion dollars.
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Nine hundred thousand people
have been killed.
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Thirty-eight million
have been displaced.
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As President Bush promised,
we have made ourselves heard.
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(explosion booms)
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With all our money
and might,
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did we inspire the world
with our ideals?
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We retreated
from Afghanistan in defeat,
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leaving resentment
and betrayal in our wake.
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What led us
to this place?
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I would argue
that it all started
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as a failure
of intelligence,
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both of our
intelligence agencies
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and ourselves
as citizens
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in our refusal
to listen to anything
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but what we wanted
to hear.
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(triumphant theme playing)
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Announcer:
Live from Camp David,
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a special edition
of "Meet the Press"
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with Tim Russert.
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An exclusive interview with
Vice President Dick Cheney.
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And we are green top
in the shadows
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of the presidential retreat
at Camp David.
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Mr. Vice President,
good morning and welcome.
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Morning, Tim.
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There have been
restrictions placed
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on the United States
intelligence gathering,
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reluctance to use
unsavory characters,
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those who violated
human rights to assist
in intelligence gathering.
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Will we lift some
of those restrictions?
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Well, I think so.
I think, uh,
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if you're gonna deal only
with, uh, sort of, uh...
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officially approved
certified good guys,
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you're not going to find out
what the bad guys are doing.
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It is a mean, nasty, dangerous,
dirty business out there,
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and we have to operate
in that arena.
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Uh, I'm convinced
we can do it.
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We can do it successfully,
but we need to make certain
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that we have not tied
the hands, if you will,
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of our
intelligence communities
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in terms of accomplishing
their mission.
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John Rizzo: I knew
based on my experience
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that CIA would be directed,
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be given legal authorities
that it had never had.
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So I was trying to think
of every conceivable
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and legal action
we could take
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on a covert basis to counter
what had just happened
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and also,
above all, prevent
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another 9/11
from happening.
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Scatter, scatter,
please go home.
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Rizzo:
I remember that morning
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there was an evacuation
of the CIA headquarters.
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Let's go.
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Rizzo:
I saw my fellow
employees walking,
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many running,
to their cars.
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It quickly developed
a huge gridlock.
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So I thought to myself,
well, to hell with it,
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I'm just going
to stay here.
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So I closed the door
of my office.
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And honestly, in those
first few minutes,
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I started scribbling down
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uh, the implications
of what was happening
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and what CIA
might be asked to do
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in the wake
of these attacks.
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I was literally brainstorming
at that point.
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Wilkerson:
It was quite clear
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with a threat like Al-Qaeda,
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we were going to have
a problem with intelligence,
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especially the kind
you get on the battlefield.
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So people started
looking around
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for who could be
the best
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to interrogate anyone detained
on that battlefield.
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And lo and behold,
there weren't any.
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The best we could do
was 12 or 13
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who had done it before
at the FBI.
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Daniel J. Jones: I came
to the Senate from spending
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a number of years in the FBI
doing counter-terrorism work,
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specifically Al-Qaeda
international operations.
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And I think the CIA
truly believed,
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Tenet particularly,
that it was their fault
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for not catching 9/11.
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After all, they never
passed information
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about the hijackers
to the FBI.
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So they wanted to be the
individuals with the successes.
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They wanted to be
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the tip of the spear,
so to speak, in this fight,
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notwithstanding the fact
that they weren't prepared.
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And this wasn't
something the CIA
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has historically engaged in.
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But six days after 9/11,
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a covert action authority
was signed by the President
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giving different US
government agencies,
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particularly the CIA,
special secret powers
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to battle Al-Qaeda
and keep the country safe.
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Rizzo: Capture and detain
senior Al-Qaeda officials.
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These are words
I wrote that first morning.
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But of course,
prior to 9/11,
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CIA had never captured
or detained anybody.
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They would sometimes
question people
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that a foreign
allied government
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had captured overseas.
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But we had never
operated a system
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where we would do
the capturing
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and we would do the holding
and we would do the detaining.
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So again, this was
tabula rasa for us
at that point.
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It was decided
CIA would be responsible
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for the top echelon
of Al-Qaeda.
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By that point,
the military had stood up
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the detention facility
in Guantanamo Bay.
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The thought was that
would be largely preserved
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for lower-ranking officials
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but that the CIA
would take the lead
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for capturing
the higher-level officials.
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Jones: The CIA did do
research on detention
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and eventually concluded
it was a bad idea.
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Somebody said the thought
of holding someone endlessly
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is incredibly scary to me.
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00:11:00,752 --> 00:11:02,835
I don't want to be called back
from retirement to say,
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00:11:02,919 --> 00:11:04,377
what do I do with this guy?
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00:11:04,460 --> 00:11:07,460
And yet they begin a detention
interrogation program.
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Gibney: The interrogation
program was designed,
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00:11:09,794 --> 00:11:13,043
in the words of the CIA,
to do something different.
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When publicly revealed,
that difference set off
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a media firestorm.
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George Tenet:
It's been portrayed as this--
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we sat around
the campfire and said,
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00:11:22,085 --> 00:11:24,627
"Oh boy, now we go get
to torture people."
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Well, we don't
torture people.
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Let me say that again to you.
We don't torture people.
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-Okay.
-Come on, George.
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-We don't torture people--
-Khalid Shaikh Mohammed?
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We don't torture--
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-Waterboarding?
-We do not...
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-It's torture.
-I don't talk about techniques,
and we don't torture people.
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Now listen to--
No, listen to me.
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I want you to listen to me.
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I know that this program
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has saved lives.
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I know
we've disrupted plots.
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Gibney: For years,
the CIA promoted
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00:11:52,293 --> 00:11:56,335
its new interrogation program
as a success.
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George Tenet was awarded
the Presidential Medal
of Freedom.
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00:12:00,252 --> 00:12:03,252
The CIA worked closely with
celebrated Hollywood filmmakers
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00:12:03,335 --> 00:12:04,835
to promote a fable
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00:12:04,919 --> 00:12:06,710
that its
interrogation techniques
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00:12:06,794 --> 00:12:08,168
were tough but necessary
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00:12:08,252 --> 00:12:10,585
and were responsible
for locating the hideout
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00:12:10,669 --> 00:12:12,043
of Osama Bin Laden.
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00:12:12,126 --> 00:12:13,794
It's one of the great stories
of our time.
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00:12:13,877 --> 00:12:15,961
Gibney:
When critics tried to sort
truth from fiction,
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00:12:16,043 --> 00:12:18,085
they found
alternate accounts hidden
254
00:12:18,168 --> 00:12:20,460
behind the black lines
of redactions
255
00:12:20,543 --> 00:12:22,835
and at the bottom
of shredding machines.
256
00:12:24,543 --> 00:12:26,335
Finding out
what really happened
257
00:12:26,418 --> 00:12:27,752
would require
putting together
258
00:12:27,835 --> 00:12:29,460
bits and pieces
of evidence that remained
259
00:12:29,543 --> 00:12:33,710
along with testimony
not censored by the CIA.
260
00:12:34,961 --> 00:12:36,585
Rizzo: As soon as
the President signed
261
00:12:36,669 --> 00:12:38,669
the Presidential finding,
262
00:12:38,752 --> 00:12:40,919
CIA began planning.
263
00:12:41,002 --> 00:12:43,752
The way I was thinking was
to just pull everything
264
00:12:43,835 --> 00:12:44,961
out of the toolkit.
265
00:12:45,043 --> 00:12:46,710
I mean, we were starting
at square one.
266
00:12:46,794 --> 00:12:48,669
We were scouting
potential locations
267
00:12:48,752 --> 00:12:50,710
where these
Al-Qaeda officials,
268
00:12:50,794 --> 00:12:53,293
if captured,
would be held.
269
00:12:53,377 --> 00:12:55,293
And the event that really
propelled it, of course,
270
00:12:55,377 --> 00:12:58,502
was when we did capture
our first high-level official,
271
00:12:58,585 --> 00:13:01,168
a man named
Abu Zubaydah.
272
00:13:01,252 --> 00:13:03,126
News Anchor:
US officials tell NBC News
273
00:13:03,210 --> 00:13:05,794
Zubaydah may have been
nabbed just in time.
274
00:13:05,877 --> 00:13:08,835
Intelligence reports indicate
he was already planning
275
00:13:08,919 --> 00:13:10,835
the next wave
of terrorist attacks
276
00:13:10,919 --> 00:13:13,377
against US targets.
277
00:13:13,460 --> 00:13:15,877
Gibney: Abu Zubaydah
is the forever prisoner
278
00:13:15,961 --> 00:13:17,460
at the heart of this story.
279
00:13:17,543 --> 00:13:20,835
His capture, detention,
and interrogation by the CIA
280
00:13:20,919 --> 00:13:24,418
is the origin story
of America's failure
of intelligence
281
00:13:24,502 --> 00:13:26,252
and our retreat
from the ideals
282
00:13:26,335 --> 00:13:28,126
we claim to be fighting for.
283
00:13:28,210 --> 00:13:31,085
For many years, it was
an impossible story to tell
284
00:13:31,168 --> 00:13:34,585
because the CIA prevented
key witnesses from talking.
285
00:13:34,669 --> 00:13:38,543
One of those was
the ex-FBI agent Ali Soufan.
286
00:13:38,627 --> 00:13:40,377
When he first testified
in Congress,
287
00:13:40,460 --> 00:13:42,210
he was behind
a black screen.
288
00:13:42,293 --> 00:13:45,460
When he wrote his account
of interrogating Abu Zubaydah,
289
00:13:45,543 --> 00:13:47,710
he was ruthlessly redacted
by the CIA,
290
00:13:47,794 --> 00:13:50,043
which even censored the use
291
00:13:50,126 --> 00:13:52,543
of his own
first person pronoun.
292
00:13:52,627 --> 00:13:55,585
It's very difficult, to me,
to put it out for you
293
00:13:55,669 --> 00:13:57,293
when I cannot talk
about the story,
294
00:13:57,377 --> 00:13:59,502
the, you know
what's going on.
295
00:13:59,585 --> 00:14:01,585
So you can,
you can see that.
296
00:14:01,669 --> 00:14:03,585
You can see here
the one-letter word.
297
00:14:03,669 --> 00:14:05,961
Gibney: Rather than fight
an endless legal battle,
298
00:14:06,043 --> 00:14:10,126
Soufan chose to publish
with whole pages blacked out.
299
00:14:10,210 --> 00:14:12,460
It was the protest
that made my interview
300
00:14:12,543 --> 00:14:14,210
with Soufan very difficult.
301
00:14:14,293 --> 00:14:16,085
You call this guy Boris.
302
00:14:16,168 --> 00:14:18,710
-Is Boris his real name?
-No.
303
00:14:18,794 --> 00:14:21,961
I cannot talk about,
uh, about him,
304
00:14:22,043 --> 00:14:25,002
and I cannot even mention
his real name.
305
00:14:28,794 --> 00:14:31,002
Gibney:
This is Boris.
306
00:14:31,085 --> 00:14:32,752
His real name
is James Mitchell.
307
00:14:32,835 --> 00:14:36,293
He also wrote a book
about the interrogation
of Abu Zubaydah.
308
00:14:36,377 --> 00:14:40,835
But Mitchell's book had
the full cooperation
of the CIA.
309
00:14:40,919 --> 00:14:44,002
Because Mitchell was
the inventor of EITs,
310
00:14:44,085 --> 00:14:46,210
the acronym for what
the CIA called
311
00:14:46,293 --> 00:14:48,252
Enhanced
Interrogation Techniques
312
00:14:48,335 --> 00:14:51,377
and what the rest
of the world called torture.
313
00:14:52,502 --> 00:14:54,460
If my boss tells me
it's legal,
314
00:14:54,543 --> 00:14:57,377
especially if the President
has approved it,
315
00:14:57,460 --> 00:14:59,377
I'm not going to get
into the nuances
316
00:14:59,460 --> 00:15:01,752
about what some guy
in the basement
317
00:15:01,835 --> 00:15:04,210
or what some journalist
thinks about it.
318
00:15:04,293 --> 00:15:06,835
Because they're free
to trade places with me
319
00:15:06,919 --> 00:15:08,961
any time they think
they can do a better job
320
00:15:09,043 --> 00:15:11,627
of protecting Americans.
321
00:15:11,710 --> 00:15:13,669
Gibney: If you hear
a little bit of agitation
322
00:15:13,752 --> 00:15:15,002
in Mitchell's voice,
323
00:15:15,085 --> 00:15:16,835
it's on account
of his own frustration
324
00:15:16,919 --> 00:15:19,502
with how the CIA
has portrayed his role.
325
00:15:19,585 --> 00:15:22,293
So we agree
to an interview.
326
00:15:22,377 --> 00:15:25,877
Then I sued the CIA
to get Soufan's book
unredacted.
327
00:15:25,961 --> 00:15:29,543
Unexpectedly,
the CIA backed down.
328
00:15:29,627 --> 00:15:31,961
Soufan agreed to sit down
one more time,
329
00:15:32,043 --> 00:15:35,168
knowing he could now tell me
what really happened.
330
00:15:36,752 --> 00:15:38,085
Since 9/11,
331
00:15:38,168 --> 00:15:41,710
I was nonstop traveling
around the world,
332
00:15:41,794 --> 00:15:46,377
and finally, I came back
around Easter of 2002,
333
00:15:46,460 --> 00:15:50,168
and I was hoping to go with,
uh, spend some Easter time
334
00:15:50,252 --> 00:15:52,543
with the family
in Pennsylvania.
335
00:15:52,627 --> 00:15:54,043
But I got a phone call.
336
00:15:54,126 --> 00:15:55,752
They said, "You're going
to be going to
337
00:15:55,835 --> 00:15:58,335
interview Abu Zubaydah."
338
00:15:58,418 --> 00:16:01,377
They called me because
I've been investigating
339
00:16:01,460 --> 00:16:03,002
Al-Qaeda for a while.
340
00:16:03,085 --> 00:16:06,293
I was involved in the
East Africa embassy bombings,
341
00:16:06,377 --> 00:16:07,961
the "USS Cole" attack,
342
00:16:08,043 --> 00:16:11,377
and I had sources reporting
on Abu Zubaydah.
343
00:16:11,460 --> 00:16:12,961
So Abu Zubaydah wasn't
344
00:16:13,043 --> 00:16:15,085
a character that came
out of nowhere to me.
345
00:16:15,168 --> 00:16:16,961
Abu Zubaydah was
an individual,
346
00:16:17,043 --> 00:16:18,377
a terrorist, an operative,
347
00:16:18,460 --> 00:16:21,627
that I've been following,
uh, on for a while.
348
00:16:21,710 --> 00:16:25,961
And that's why, at the time,
the FBI and the CIA,
349
00:16:26,043 --> 00:16:28,210
they felt that
I should be there
350
00:16:28,293 --> 00:16:30,919
helping the CIA
interrogating Abu Zubaydah.
351
00:16:38,460 --> 00:16:40,460
Rizzo:
Abu Zubaydah was captured
352
00:16:40,543 --> 00:16:42,752
in a firefight
in Pakistan,
353
00:16:42,835 --> 00:16:44,961
and he was
immediately whisked
354
00:16:45,043 --> 00:16:50,627
to the then brand-new
first CIA detention facility.
355
00:16:50,710 --> 00:16:54,168
Personnel were assigned there
in, literally, days.
356
00:17:03,835 --> 00:17:06,418
Ali Soufan:
We came with the CIA,
357
00:17:06,502 --> 00:17:08,585
a couple of officers
358
00:17:08,669 --> 00:17:12,085
plus a medic
and two doctors.
359
00:17:12,168 --> 00:17:14,585
They made it clear to us,
me and Steve Gaudin
360
00:17:14,669 --> 00:17:16,252
who was my partner
at the time,
361
00:17:16,335 --> 00:17:18,502
that we're not there
to interrogate Abu Zubaydah.
362
00:17:18,585 --> 00:17:21,794
We're just there to assist
the CIA in the interrogation
363
00:17:21,877 --> 00:17:25,627
because of the knowledge
and the expertise
364
00:17:25,710 --> 00:17:27,543
we have on this subject.
365
00:17:27,627 --> 00:17:29,669
They basically read us
these instructions of,
366
00:17:29,752 --> 00:17:32,002
"Hey, listen, it's
a whole 'nother ball game.
367
00:17:32,085 --> 00:17:33,794
"It's a whole
another world now.
368
00:17:33,877 --> 00:17:37,502
"This is all about preventing
the next September 11th.
369
00:17:37,585 --> 00:17:39,543
This isn't about prosecution."
370
00:17:39,627 --> 00:17:41,627
It changed...
371
00:17:41,710 --> 00:17:45,460
the scope and nature
of pretty much everything
372
00:17:45,543 --> 00:17:48,710
Ali and I had probably
ever done before to that day.
373
00:17:50,460 --> 00:17:52,627
So we got to this location,
374
00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:54,794
pretty rural area.
375
00:17:54,877 --> 00:17:56,335
It wasn't like
we walked into
376
00:17:56,418 --> 00:17:59,002
this nice, beautiful "site,"
so to speak.
377
00:17:59,085 --> 00:18:01,252
It was just like a house.
378
00:18:01,335 --> 00:18:03,585
Next thing we know,
an ambulance gets there,
379
00:18:03,669 --> 00:18:06,794
and they carry Zubaydah
by Ali and I
380
00:18:06,877 --> 00:18:09,043
into the house.
381
00:18:09,126 --> 00:18:11,335
Soufan: Abu Zubaydah
was finally captured
382
00:18:11,418 --> 00:18:13,293
in Faisalabad, Pakistan.
383
00:18:13,377 --> 00:18:16,961
He tried to escape,
and he was shot in the process.
384
00:18:17,043 --> 00:18:21,168
So he required
intensive medical care.
385
00:18:21,252 --> 00:18:23,460
Steve Gaudin:
He had been shot
a number of times,
386
00:18:23,543 --> 00:18:26,377
mostly abdominal
and in the leg.
387
00:18:26,460 --> 00:18:29,543
But, and this was very strange
to both Ali and I,
388
00:18:29,627 --> 00:18:31,627
the folks in charge
for some reason
389
00:18:31,710 --> 00:18:33,168
were starting to doubt
whether or not
390
00:18:33,252 --> 00:18:34,710
he was actually Abu Zubaydah.
391
00:18:36,835 --> 00:18:39,002
Soufan:
We went to the chief of base,
392
00:18:39,085 --> 00:18:41,752
and we said, "When do you want
to start the interview?"
393
00:18:41,835 --> 00:18:43,377
And he said,
"Look, me and my guys,
394
00:18:43,460 --> 00:18:45,293
"we have no idea
who the guy is.
395
00:18:45,377 --> 00:18:48,126
"We don't know anything
about these groups.
396
00:18:48,210 --> 00:18:49,794
You know about this guy,
don't you?"
397
00:18:49,877 --> 00:18:51,377
We're like, "Yeah."
He said, "Well, pff,
398
00:18:51,460 --> 00:18:52,543
"what are you waiting for?
399
00:18:52,627 --> 00:18:54,627
Go and start
interrogating him."
400
00:18:55,835 --> 00:18:57,919
So Steve and I,
we go in.
401
00:18:58,002 --> 00:19:01,252
Abu Zubaydah was handcuffed
to the gurney.
402
00:19:01,335 --> 00:19:04,752
He has a bag, a big bag
on his, on his head.
403
00:19:06,002 --> 00:19:08,377
I said, "Salaam alaikum,
alaikum as-salaam,
404
00:19:08,460 --> 00:19:11,543
peace be upon you."
And I said,
"What's your name?"
405
00:19:11,627 --> 00:19:14,252
And he looked very different
than the pictures.
406
00:19:14,335 --> 00:19:15,919
He does not have a beard.
407
00:19:16,002 --> 00:19:17,961
It seems that he had
some procedure
408
00:19:18,043 --> 00:19:20,002
in order to alter
his, his shape.
409
00:19:20,085 --> 00:19:23,002
And he had a cloudy eye.
410
00:19:23,085 --> 00:19:25,335
One of his eyes was,
like, getting infected,
411
00:19:25,418 --> 00:19:28,293
and he was kind of
looking confused,
412
00:19:28,377 --> 00:19:31,252
"Who the heck is this guy
who's speaking Arabic to me
413
00:19:31,335 --> 00:19:33,543
and where the hell
am I, right?"
414
00:19:33,627 --> 00:19:35,126
So I said,
"What's your name?"
415
00:19:35,210 --> 00:19:38,585
And he said "Daoud,"
416
00:19:38,669 --> 00:19:39,794
one of his aliases.
417
00:19:39,877 --> 00:19:42,126
It means David in Arabic.
418
00:19:42,210 --> 00:19:45,293
And I said, "Okay,
so what if I call you Hani?
419
00:19:47,126 --> 00:19:50,752
He had that, "oh, my gig is up"
look on his face.
420
00:19:51,877 --> 00:19:53,752
Hani is the name
that his mother
421
00:19:53,835 --> 00:19:56,126
nicknamed him as a child.
422
00:19:56,210 --> 00:19:59,752
So he was shocked to hear
that name coming from me.
423
00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:11,085
Hesham Abu Zubaidah:
His birth name actually
is Zayn al-Abidin.
424
00:20:11,168 --> 00:20:13,085
But my mother
called him Hani.
425
00:20:16,002 --> 00:20:18,669
And he was five
or six years older than me.
426
00:20:18,752 --> 00:20:22,418
He was a really great artist.
He, he liked to draw.
427
00:20:24,377 --> 00:20:27,377
I remember the first drawing
I saw from him.
428
00:20:27,460 --> 00:20:30,752
He had a hand holding a pen
and drawing an eye.
429
00:20:30,835 --> 00:20:33,293
And the eye had
a tear coming out it.
430
00:20:33,377 --> 00:20:35,377
He carried pain with him.
431
00:20:35,460 --> 00:20:38,252
He used to express
his feeling by drawing.
432
00:20:40,669 --> 00:20:42,293
When I go
through his diary,
433
00:20:42,377 --> 00:20:46,293
I have so much good memory
with that guy.
434
00:20:46,377 --> 00:20:50,752
He was a really nice,
funny older brother.
435
00:20:50,835 --> 00:20:52,585
I don't remember
his being religious.
436
00:20:52,669 --> 00:20:53,752
He used to play piano,
437
00:20:53,835 --> 00:20:55,460
he used to have
a girlfriend upstairs,
438
00:20:55,543 --> 00:20:56,961
you know,
and he used to smoke,
439
00:20:57,043 --> 00:20:59,377
go out with his friends.
440
00:20:59,460 --> 00:21:02,002
Gibney: When Abu Zubaydah
was captured in Pakistan,
441
00:21:02,085 --> 00:21:04,835
FBI and CIA agents
thought they had nabbed
442
00:21:04,919 --> 00:21:07,126
a diabolical
Al-Qaeda mastermind.
443
00:21:07,210 --> 00:21:09,877
They found photos
of his many disguises,
444
00:21:09,961 --> 00:21:11,919
a bundle of fake passports,
445
00:21:12,002 --> 00:21:14,210
an address book
of Al-Qaeda operatives,
446
00:21:14,293 --> 00:21:15,794
and a videotape
447
00:21:15,877 --> 00:21:17,835
taken from a hideout
in Afghanistan.
448
00:21:24,585 --> 00:21:27,126
(speaking in foreign language)
449
00:21:37,252 --> 00:21:38,794
Gibney: If the video
was incriminating,
450
00:21:38,877 --> 00:21:41,252
there were other materials
that showed evidence
451
00:21:41,335 --> 00:21:42,919
of a more complex character.
452
00:21:43,002 --> 00:21:45,543
There was a diary in which
the young Hani spoke
453
00:21:45,627 --> 00:21:47,126
to himself in the future,
454
00:21:47,210 --> 00:21:50,293
hoping that that future Hani,
Hani number two,
455
00:21:50,377 --> 00:21:51,752
would have the wisdom
to understand
456
00:21:51,835 --> 00:21:53,961
the troubled life
of Hani one,
457
00:21:54,043 --> 00:21:55,794
a Palestinian in exile.
458
00:21:55,877 --> 00:21:56,919
♪ ♪
459
00:21:57,002 --> 00:22:00,126
♪ The ship
is like a ghost... ♪
460
00:22:00,210 --> 00:22:01,961
Gibney: After growing up
in Saudi Arabia,
461
00:22:02,043 --> 00:22:04,961
he left home
and spent a few years
traveling the world,
462
00:22:05,043 --> 00:22:06,710
gliding in and out
of colleges,
463
00:22:06,794 --> 00:22:09,126
odd jobs, and love affairs.
464
00:22:09,210 --> 00:22:12,043
His diaries are filled
with hookups and romances
465
00:22:12,126 --> 00:22:14,710
as he tries to reconcile
his sexual desires
466
00:22:14,794 --> 00:22:16,543
with the dictates of Islam.
467
00:22:16,627 --> 00:22:19,710
From Bangkok to Manila
to St. Louis,
468
00:22:19,794 --> 00:22:21,460
he was a rootless wanderer
469
00:22:21,543 --> 00:22:24,627
whose life soundtrack was
the music of Chris de Burgh.
470
00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:26,794
♪ Sailor ♪
471
00:22:27,669 --> 00:22:30,293
♪ Can you hear me? ♪
472
00:22:32,418 --> 00:22:34,085
♪ Sailor ♪
473
00:22:35,418 --> 00:22:38,543
♪ Hear my call ♪
474
00:22:38,627 --> 00:22:41,126
Gibney: In 1991,
he found himself in India,
475
00:22:41,210 --> 00:22:44,043
harboring a growing anger
over Israel's treatment
476
00:22:44,126 --> 00:22:45,502
of his fellow Palestinians.
477
00:22:46,585 --> 00:22:48,418
That sense
of injustice led him,
478
00:22:48,502 --> 00:22:52,585
like so many Muslim men,
to the land of jihad.
479
00:22:52,669 --> 00:22:55,085
"To hell with Chris de Burgh"
wrote Hani 1,
480
00:22:55,168 --> 00:22:57,502
"I desire to be a martyr."
481
00:22:58,627 --> 00:23:02,835
♪ Take me home ♪
482
00:23:03,585 --> 00:23:06,210
(mortars firing)
483
00:23:10,335 --> 00:23:12,293
Soufan: Abu Zubaydah
went to Afghanistan
484
00:23:12,377 --> 00:23:14,543
in the early '90s.
485
00:23:14,627 --> 00:23:18,669
And during a battle
against the Najibullah regime,
486
00:23:18,752 --> 00:23:23,627
he was hit with a bullet,
and he lost his memory.
487
00:23:29,168 --> 00:23:32,126
After he recovered,
he went to Al-Qaeda,
488
00:23:32,210 --> 00:23:35,002
and he said he wanted
to join Al-Qaeda.
489
00:23:35,085 --> 00:23:36,418
But they were very hesitant
490
00:23:36,502 --> 00:23:38,627
to allow somebody
like him to join
491
00:23:38,710 --> 00:23:40,877
because of his
state of mind.
492
00:23:40,961 --> 00:23:44,168
So the approval never came,
and he took it personal.
493
00:23:44,252 --> 00:23:45,460
(laughs)
494
00:23:45,543 --> 00:23:49,002
And I don't think he ever
forgave Al-Qaeda for that.
495
00:23:49,085 --> 00:23:52,043
So he started
to do it himself.
496
00:23:52,126 --> 00:23:54,002
Gibney: He became
an independent facilitator
497
00:23:54,085 --> 00:23:56,377
based in Pakistan,
forging passports
498
00:23:56,460 --> 00:23:59,002
and arranging travel
and connections.
499
00:23:59,085 --> 00:24:00,669
He established
a secret network
500
00:24:00,752 --> 00:24:02,043
among many of the jihadis,
501
00:24:02,126 --> 00:24:04,543
who wanted access to
the Khalden training camp
502
00:24:04,627 --> 00:24:06,002
in Afghanistan.
503
00:24:08,585 --> 00:24:10,293
While many came
from different groups
504
00:24:10,377 --> 00:24:11,835
and for different reasons,
505
00:24:11,919 --> 00:24:13,335
Khalden became
a recruiting pool
506
00:24:13,418 --> 00:24:15,126
of operatives
for Bin Laden.
507
00:24:15,210 --> 00:24:17,335
Khalden was not part
of Al-Qaeda,
508
00:24:17,418 --> 00:24:20,168
but many in Washington
were convinced it was.
509
00:24:27,961 --> 00:24:30,126
Rizzo: Abu Zubaydah,
in those early days,
510
00:24:30,210 --> 00:24:34,752
was deemed a very big fish
in the Al-Qaeda organization.
511
00:24:34,835 --> 00:24:36,627
He was one of the few names
512
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:40,543
that was certainly
recognizable to me.
513
00:24:42,460 --> 00:24:44,835
Prior to 9/11,
the intelligence we had
514
00:24:44,919 --> 00:24:50,210
on the Al-Qaeda hierarchy
was woefully lacking.
515
00:24:50,293 --> 00:24:53,961
Beyond Bin Laden
and his deputy al-Zawahiri,
516
00:24:54,043 --> 00:24:56,210
we really had picked up
the identities
517
00:24:56,293 --> 00:25:00,002
of very few
of the more senior
Al-Qaeda officials.
518
00:25:00,085 --> 00:25:02,168
Abu Zubaydah was
one of the few
519
00:25:02,252 --> 00:25:06,252
that had actually come up
on the radar screen.
520
00:25:06,335 --> 00:25:09,460
And he seemed
to be popping up constantly
521
00:25:09,543 --> 00:25:11,669
as a facilitator,
522
00:25:11,752 --> 00:25:13,752
perhaps operational commander.
523
00:25:13,835 --> 00:25:16,877
Every time, seemingly,
we would chase down
a possible lead
524
00:25:16,961 --> 00:25:19,502
to an Al-Qaeda facility
525
00:25:19,585 --> 00:25:20,919
or individual,
526
00:25:21,002 --> 00:25:23,627
Abu Zubaydah's name
would be attached to it.
527
00:25:28,502 --> 00:25:29,961
Gibney:
In his pre-9/11 diaries,
528
00:25:30,043 --> 00:25:32,794
Abu Zubaydah distanced
himself from Bin Laden.
529
00:25:32,877 --> 00:25:36,252
While he railed against America
for its support of Israel,
530
00:25:36,335 --> 00:25:38,168
he objected to the way
that Bin Laden
531
00:25:38,252 --> 00:25:40,752
was willing
to kill innocents.
532
00:25:40,835 --> 00:25:43,252
Still, he operated
as a kind of travel agent
533
00:25:43,335 --> 00:25:44,835
for all kinds of jihadis,
534
00:25:44,919 --> 00:25:47,418
including Al-Qaeda
foot soldiers.
535
00:25:47,502 --> 00:25:49,377
That confused the CIA.
536
00:25:49,460 --> 00:25:51,919
Field agents identified him
as an independent.
537
00:25:52,002 --> 00:25:54,710
But analysts in Washington
were determined to believe
538
00:25:54,794 --> 00:25:57,919
that he was the number three
or four in Al-Qaeda.
539
00:25:58,002 --> 00:26:01,710
It appears that they thought
he was a central character
540
00:26:01,794 --> 00:26:05,669
from whom they could extract
all manner of intelligence
541
00:26:05,752 --> 00:26:07,460
on Al-Qaeda
for the one hand
542
00:26:07,543 --> 00:26:10,418
and, more importantly,
for intelligence
543
00:26:10,502 --> 00:26:11,961
on what was coming next.
544
00:26:13,585 --> 00:26:15,293
Soufan:
Our main goal was to see
545
00:26:15,377 --> 00:26:16,669
if there is
imminent threat,
546
00:26:16,752 --> 00:26:20,168
so we didn't really
have time to play.
547
00:26:20,252 --> 00:26:22,669
So during that conversation,
we said,
548
00:26:22,752 --> 00:26:24,710
"How do you think
you get caught, Hani?
549
00:26:24,794 --> 00:26:27,335
"What were you doing
that led us to you?
550
00:26:27,418 --> 00:26:29,543
What mistakes did you do?"
551
00:26:29,627 --> 00:26:30,877
And all of a sudden,
552
00:26:30,961 --> 00:26:33,460
he talked about an operation
that he was planning to do.
553
00:26:33,543 --> 00:26:36,585
There was an attack in a country
friendly to the United States.
554
00:26:37,877 --> 00:26:39,502
Gibney:
We forced the US government
555
00:26:39,585 --> 00:26:42,126
to hand over a copy
of Ali Soufan's notes
556
00:26:42,210 --> 00:26:44,877
from his interrogation
of Abu Zubaydah.
557
00:26:44,961 --> 00:26:46,752
The plot revealed
by Zubaydah
558
00:26:46,835 --> 00:26:49,335
involved $100,000
from Saudi Arabia
559
00:26:49,418 --> 00:26:53,669
for an operation to be
conducted in Palestine.
560
00:26:53,752 --> 00:26:55,669
Soufan:
It was a pretty
advanced operation.
561
00:26:55,752 --> 00:26:57,460
So he thought because
of all these calls
562
00:26:57,543 --> 00:27:01,002
and what he was trying to do,
he got caught.
563
00:27:01,085 --> 00:27:03,293
We had no idea
about that operation.
564
00:27:03,377 --> 00:27:06,002
So we, uh, wrote it.
565
00:27:06,085 --> 00:27:08,877
We sent it back
to headquarters,
566
00:27:08,961 --> 00:27:10,085
and we waited.
567
00:27:11,585 --> 00:27:13,168
Gibney:
Back at CIA headquarters,
568
00:27:13,252 --> 00:27:16,252
George Tenet was thrilled
that Abu Zubaydah was talking
569
00:27:16,335 --> 00:27:18,669
and helping to prevent
future plots.
570
00:27:18,752 --> 00:27:21,669
He wanted to congratulate
the CIA agents involved.
571
00:27:21,752 --> 00:27:25,210
But when Tenet was told that
FBI agents were responsible,
572
00:27:25,293 --> 00:27:26,835
he flew into a rage.
573
00:27:26,919 --> 00:27:29,669
He ordered his subordinates
to find a CIA team
574
00:27:29,752 --> 00:27:32,002
to take over
the interrogation.
575
00:27:32,085 --> 00:27:34,335
Rizzo:
The FBI officials on the scene
576
00:27:34,418 --> 00:27:37,669
thought that Zubaydah
was cooperating
577
00:27:37,752 --> 00:27:40,961
and that they were building
a rapport with him.
578
00:27:41,043 --> 00:27:43,710
That was not articulated
to me at the time.
579
00:27:44,919 --> 00:27:47,210
CIA officials were convinced
580
00:27:47,293 --> 00:27:49,210
that he was withholding
581
00:27:49,293 --> 00:27:51,752
far more sensitive
and important stuff,
582
00:27:51,835 --> 00:27:53,752
so I was not told that,
583
00:27:53,835 --> 00:27:55,585
look, the FBI guys think
584
00:27:55,669 --> 00:27:57,418
Zubaydah is telling
everything he knows.
585
00:27:57,502 --> 00:27:59,794
It's just going
to take some time.
586
00:27:59,877 --> 00:28:02,085
But if I had been told
587
00:28:02,168 --> 00:28:06,126
and I'd relayed that
to my CIA management,
588
00:28:06,210 --> 00:28:08,502
I think the response would be,
from CIA management,
589
00:28:08,585 --> 00:28:11,210
"Well, time is
the one thing we don't have."
590
00:28:13,126 --> 00:28:16,252
Gibney: Time plays
a strange role in this story.
591
00:28:16,335 --> 00:28:18,418
There was enormous pressure
to get information
592
00:28:18,502 --> 00:28:21,752
out of Abu Zubaydah
to prevent future attacks.
593
00:28:21,835 --> 00:28:24,543
That's usually
the rationale for torture.
594
00:28:24,627 --> 00:28:26,919
It's called
the ticking time bomb theory.
595
00:28:27,002 --> 00:28:28,919
While the bomb is ticking,
there's no time
596
00:28:29,002 --> 00:28:31,377
to play nice
with bad guys.
597
00:28:31,460 --> 00:28:34,460
But strangely,
the CIA wasn't ready
598
00:28:34,543 --> 00:28:36,252
to take the gloves off.
599
00:28:36,335 --> 00:28:39,835
The agency needed to invent
a new kind of interrogation
600
00:28:39,919 --> 00:28:42,168
that would not land
its agents in jail,
601
00:28:42,252 --> 00:28:44,377
and that would take time.
602
00:28:45,502 --> 00:28:46,919
Meanwhile, in Thailand,
603
00:28:47,002 --> 00:28:48,627
FBI interrogators
were getting
604
00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:51,002
vital information
out of Abu Zubaydah
605
00:28:51,085 --> 00:28:53,293
Out of the blue,
the CIA sent a cable
606
00:28:53,377 --> 00:28:56,669
telling the agents
to stop the interrogation.
607
00:28:56,752 --> 00:28:58,669
That confused
the FBI agents.
608
00:28:58,752 --> 00:29:00,961
What happened
to all the urgency?
609
00:29:01,043 --> 00:29:02,710
But orders are orders.
610
00:29:02,794 --> 00:29:04,418
They were told
to wait for a team
611
00:29:04,502 --> 00:29:06,961
from CIA headquarters
to arrive.
612
00:29:08,669 --> 00:29:09,794
Back in Washington,
613
00:29:09,877 --> 00:29:12,252
the CIA was desperately
trying to figure out
614
00:29:12,335 --> 00:29:13,585
who should be on the team.
615
00:29:13,669 --> 00:29:17,126
And now, there was
no more time left to lose.
616
00:29:19,585 --> 00:29:23,210
The video you're about to see
is a deposition from a lawsuit
617
00:29:23,293 --> 00:29:24,835
brought against key players
618
00:29:24,919 --> 00:29:26,669
of the CIA
interrogation program.
619
00:29:26,752 --> 00:29:28,377
Woman: Can you raise
your right hand, please?
620
00:29:28,460 --> 00:29:30,126
Do you
solemnly swear that...
621
00:29:30,210 --> 00:29:32,210
Other right hand, please.
(laughs)
622
00:29:32,293 --> 00:29:34,168
Gibney: The man wearing
the blue and white tie
623
00:29:34,252 --> 00:29:35,919
is Jose Rodriguez.
624
00:29:36,002 --> 00:29:37,543
In 2002,
he was the head
625
00:29:37,627 --> 00:29:40,126
of the CIA's
Counterterrorism Center,
626
00:29:40,210 --> 00:29:41,168
or CTC.
627
00:29:41,252 --> 00:29:42,377
-Yes, I do.
-Gibney: He was the man
628
00:29:42,460 --> 00:29:44,002
Tenet leaned on to replace
629
00:29:44,085 --> 00:29:45,502
the FBI interrogators
630
00:29:45,585 --> 00:29:47,835
and to find someone
to invent overnight
631
00:29:47,919 --> 00:29:50,710
a new CIA
interrogation program.
632
00:29:50,794 --> 00:29:52,835
Lawyer: I want
to direct your attention
633
00:29:52,919 --> 00:29:54,418
to the time period
634
00:29:54,502 --> 00:29:56,543
in which, um,
doctors Mitchell
635
00:29:56,627 --> 00:29:58,126
and Jessen were hired.
636
00:29:58,210 --> 00:30:00,418
-Mm-hmm.
-Lawyer: Um...
637
00:30:02,252 --> 00:30:04,126
And, uh,
for the record,
638
00:30:04,210 --> 00:30:07,126
doctors Mitchell and Jessen
are here today.
639
00:30:07,210 --> 00:30:09,502
Um, did you select
640
00:30:09,585 --> 00:30:13,085
Dr. Mitchell
to work with CTC?
641
00:30:13,168 --> 00:30:16,752
Once he was recommended
and I met, uh, Dr. Mitchell,
642
00:30:16,835 --> 00:30:20,293
yes, I recommended him
to continue working with us.
643
00:30:20,377 --> 00:30:21,418
Lawyer: Okay.
644
00:30:21,502 --> 00:30:24,043
Um, I want to read you
645
00:30:24,126 --> 00:30:26,460
a passage from your book
"Hard Measures."
646
00:30:26,543 --> 00:30:28,085
-Do you see that there?
-Rodriguez: Mm-hmm.
647
00:30:28,168 --> 00:30:29,752
-Lawyer: That looks like you.
-Rodriguez: That looks like me?
648
00:30:29,835 --> 00:30:31,210
Lawyer:
Yeah. Um...
649
00:30:31,293 --> 00:30:35,710
and, um, if you could take
a look at page 55.
650
00:30:35,794 --> 00:30:37,418
-Rodriguez: Mm-hmm.
-Lawyer: You see that?
651
00:30:37,502 --> 00:30:39,502
And in the second
full paragraph
652
00:30:39,585 --> 00:30:43,377
is the sentence, "Within
two days of AZ's capture,
653
00:30:43,460 --> 00:30:45,627
"we tracked down
the contractor
654
00:30:45,710 --> 00:30:47,293
"and asked if he would
accompany a team
655
00:30:47,377 --> 00:30:49,919
"of CTC officers
to the black site
656
00:30:50,002 --> 00:30:52,460
where we hoped Abu Zubaydah
would be interrogated."
657
00:30:52,543 --> 00:30:53,794
-Do you see that?
-Rodriguez: Yes.
658
00:30:53,877 --> 00:30:56,877
Lawyer: First of all,
the reference to AZ
659
00:30:56,961 --> 00:30:58,418
is Abu Zubaydah, correct?
660
00:30:58,502 --> 00:31:00,002
-Rodriguez: Correct.
-Lawyer: And the reference
661
00:31:00,085 --> 00:31:03,460
to the contractor
is Dr. Mitchell.
Is that correct?
662
00:31:03,543 --> 00:31:04,585
-Rodriguez: Correct.
-Lawyer: Okay.
663
00:31:04,669 --> 00:31:06,919
How did you reach him
664
00:31:07,002 --> 00:31:09,752
within two days
of AZ's capture?
665
00:31:09,835 --> 00:31:11,543
Well, I assume that
he was at headquarters.
666
00:31:11,627 --> 00:31:14,085
Somebody, you know,
somebody reached him.
667
00:31:14,168 --> 00:31:15,418
I did not reach him myself.
668
00:31:15,502 --> 00:31:17,794
Somebody in
the Counterterrorism Center
669
00:31:17,877 --> 00:31:19,210
reached him.
670
00:31:22,919 --> 00:31:24,502
Jones:
Jim Mitchell was identified
671
00:31:24,585 --> 00:31:26,168
because one of
the chief lawyers
672
00:31:26,252 --> 00:31:27,794
in the
counterterrorism division
673
00:31:27,877 --> 00:31:30,794
happened to be married
to another CIA employee
674
00:31:30,877 --> 00:31:31,919
who was in something called
675
00:31:32,002 --> 00:31:34,335
the Office
of Technical Services.
676
00:31:34,418 --> 00:31:36,002
This involved psychologists.
677
00:31:36,085 --> 00:31:38,210
And there was
a psychologist on contract,
678
00:31:38,293 --> 00:31:42,126
Jim Mitchell,
who had written
a report for the CIA.
679
00:31:42,210 --> 00:31:44,085
This report was based
on what was believed
680
00:31:44,168 --> 00:31:45,460
to be an Al-Qaeda manual,
681
00:31:45,543 --> 00:31:48,126
and it included details
on interrogations.
682
00:31:48,210 --> 00:31:51,126
Gibney: The manual was called
"The Manchester Manual"
683
00:31:51,210 --> 00:31:54,460
in honor of where it was found
in Manchester, England,
684
00:31:54,543 --> 00:31:55,835
by Ali Soufan.
685
00:31:55,919 --> 00:31:58,293
Soufan: I was
in Manchester investigating
686
00:31:58,377 --> 00:32:00,043
a member of Al-Qaeda.
687
00:32:00,126 --> 00:32:02,919
And we did
a search of his house
688
00:32:03,002 --> 00:32:04,752
where we found
a handwritten book,
689
00:32:04,835 --> 00:32:07,543
"The Manchester Manual."
690
00:32:07,627 --> 00:32:10,418
It's mostly
about urban warfare.
691
00:32:10,502 --> 00:32:13,794
And it has a section about
what happens if you get caught.
692
00:32:13,877 --> 00:32:17,669
What should you
expect to endure?
693
00:32:17,752 --> 00:32:20,418
It talks about
very harsh techniques,
694
00:32:20,502 --> 00:32:23,669
beatings, rape,
they're going to be sodomized,
695
00:32:23,752 --> 00:32:26,126
their family going
to be tortured.
696
00:32:26,210 --> 00:32:28,627
These are the things
that were ingrained
697
00:32:28,710 --> 00:32:31,418
in the head
of Qaeda operatives.
698
00:32:32,752 --> 00:32:34,710
Gibney:
Soufan recognized it
as a kind of
699
00:32:34,794 --> 00:32:36,752
cut-and-paste
terrorist pamphlet.
700
00:32:36,835 --> 00:32:39,126
But the CIA imagined
it might be
701
00:32:39,210 --> 00:32:41,043
a window into
the Islamist mind.
702
00:32:41,126 --> 00:32:44,168
So they hired a psychologist
named James Mitchell
703
00:32:44,252 --> 00:32:45,502
to analyze it.
704
00:32:45,585 --> 00:32:47,335
He and his colleague,
Bruce Jessen,
705
00:32:47,418 --> 00:32:50,627
concluded that the manual
was a diabolical guide
706
00:32:50,710 --> 00:32:52,877
to play mind games
on interrogators,
707
00:32:52,961 --> 00:32:55,585
which could only be overcome
through harsh physical
708
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:58,502
and psychological
countermeasures.
709
00:32:58,585 --> 00:33:00,418
Even though those
techniques were milder
710
00:33:00,502 --> 00:33:02,752
than the torture
expected by the manual,
711
00:33:02,835 --> 00:33:05,168
the message found favor
at the agency.
712
00:33:05,252 --> 00:33:07,252
Mitchell, who had
no experience
713
00:33:07,335 --> 00:33:08,669
interrogating anyone,
714
00:33:08,752 --> 00:33:10,794
was the only candidate
considered
715
00:33:10,877 --> 00:33:12,293
for the job of inventing
716
00:33:12,377 --> 00:33:16,043
the CIA's new system
of interrogation.
717
00:33:16,126 --> 00:33:17,835
Jones: There was
no blue ribbon commission.
718
00:33:17,919 --> 00:33:20,043
There was no outreach
to the FBI
719
00:33:20,126 --> 00:33:22,043
or to the Department
of Defense
720
00:33:22,126 --> 00:33:24,085
or any other US agency,
721
00:33:24,168 --> 00:33:26,335
or foreign entity,
for that matter.
722
00:33:26,418 --> 00:33:28,168
Gibney:
The CIA's hiring policy
723
00:33:28,252 --> 00:33:29,252
was much more casual.
724
00:33:29,335 --> 00:33:31,460
A CTC lawyer whose pictures
725
00:33:31,543 --> 00:33:33,210
have been scrubbed
from the internet
726
00:33:33,293 --> 00:33:35,377
just asked his wife
if she knew anyone
727
00:33:35,460 --> 00:33:36,877
who might be good
for the job.
728
00:33:36,961 --> 00:33:39,627
Jones: This lawyer says,
"Abu Zubaydah's been captured.
729
00:33:39,710 --> 00:33:41,210
I don't know what we're going
to do with this guy."
730
00:33:41,293 --> 00:33:43,669
And she says, "Well,
I got a guy in my office
731
00:33:43,752 --> 00:33:45,293
"who just wrote a report
732
00:33:45,377 --> 00:33:47,877
"on this believed-to-be
an Al-Qaeda training manual.
733
00:33:47,961 --> 00:33:49,252
You should talk to him."
734
00:33:55,002 --> 00:33:57,794
Mitchell: I got
a phone call from the CIA
735
00:33:57,877 --> 00:34:00,961
and they said, "You need
to come in tomorrow."
736
00:34:01,043 --> 00:34:02,961
I was curious
because that was,
737
00:34:03,043 --> 00:34:06,502
you know, that sounds like
comic book, uh, material.
738
00:34:06,585 --> 00:34:07,794
So I went.
739
00:34:10,335 --> 00:34:12,418
I parked in the furthest space
in the parking lot,
740
00:34:12,502 --> 00:34:14,168
the only place
I could find.
741
00:34:14,252 --> 00:34:18,919
That building is a labyrinth
of hallways and rooms.
742
00:34:19,002 --> 00:34:20,002
I got to the door,
743
00:34:20,085 --> 00:34:22,168
and they rushed me
into the room,
744
00:34:22,252 --> 00:34:24,835
told me that they had
captured Abu Zubaydah,
745
00:34:24,919 --> 00:34:27,252
and asked me
if I would deploy
746
00:34:27,335 --> 00:34:29,710
with the interrogation team
747
00:34:29,794 --> 00:34:33,418
to help them... recognize
748
00:34:33,502 --> 00:34:36,085
if he was using
sophisticated resistance
749
00:34:36,168 --> 00:34:37,377
to interrogation techniques
750
00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:39,293
to resist
providing information.
751
00:34:39,377 --> 00:34:42,418
Lawyer: He said he provided
psychological support.
752
00:34:42,502 --> 00:34:43,669
What does that mean?
753
00:34:43,752 --> 00:34:46,418
He provided, uh, research
754
00:34:46,502 --> 00:34:49,418
and applied
psychological support,
755
00:34:49,502 --> 00:34:51,919
-uh, to the agency.
-Lawyer: Mm-hmm.
756
00:34:52,002 --> 00:34:53,543
Um, so he did research?
757
00:34:53,627 --> 00:34:55,168
I assume so.
758
00:34:55,252 --> 00:34:56,794
Lawyer:
You don't know?
759
00:34:57,543 --> 00:34:58,627
No.
760
00:34:58,710 --> 00:35:00,502
Jones: So Jim Mitchell
walks in the door,
761
00:35:00,585 --> 00:35:03,710
says that I have experience
in interrogations,
762
00:35:03,794 --> 00:35:05,752
describes what he would do,
763
00:35:05,835 --> 00:35:08,002
and Jose Rodriguez says,
"You're hired,
764
00:35:08,085 --> 00:35:09,794
"and we're going
to put you on a flight
765
00:35:09,877 --> 00:35:12,669
to the first detention site
right now."
766
00:35:13,961 --> 00:35:15,002
No other vetting.
767
00:35:15,085 --> 00:35:19,877
(airplane whooshing)
768
00:35:24,669 --> 00:35:28,210
(insects chirping)
769
00:35:28,293 --> 00:35:31,252
Gaudin:
Those first few days
were very chaotic.
770
00:35:31,335 --> 00:35:32,961
He was very wounded
771
00:35:33,043 --> 00:35:35,210
and sometimes while we
were talking to him,
772
00:35:35,293 --> 00:35:37,085
the doctors had to come in
and change bandages,
773
00:35:37,168 --> 00:35:38,460
or change dressings.
774
00:35:38,543 --> 00:35:40,627
And sometimes, the,
the medical folks would say,
775
00:35:40,710 --> 00:35:43,710
"You can't talk to him
for a little while.
We need to let him rest."
776
00:35:44,877 --> 00:35:46,877
Soufan:
They said he was dehydrated.
777
00:35:46,961 --> 00:35:49,543
So Stephen and I
were caring for him.
778
00:35:49,627 --> 00:35:52,043
We put ice on his lips.
779
00:35:52,126 --> 00:35:54,835
Ali is holding his hand.
Ali's rubbing his forehead.
780
00:35:54,919 --> 00:35:57,543
Ali's praying with him,
saying, "Hang in there, brother.
781
00:35:57,627 --> 00:35:59,752
"Don't worry. We're going
to take care of you.
782
00:35:59,835 --> 00:36:01,293
You're going to be okay."
783
00:36:01,377 --> 00:36:03,335
He defecates
all over himself.
784
00:36:05,002 --> 00:36:06,543
Soufan:
Later on, I don't know,
785
00:36:06,627 --> 00:36:09,335
two or three o'clock
in the morning,
the medic came in
786
00:36:09,418 --> 00:36:11,919
and he said,
"Is this guy important?"
787
00:36:12,002 --> 00:36:13,961
And I said,
"Yeah, I believe so."
788
00:36:14,043 --> 00:36:15,710
He said,
"Well, if, you know,
789
00:36:15,794 --> 00:36:18,585
"if you think
he knows information,
790
00:36:18,669 --> 00:36:19,919
"you better get it
from him now.
791
00:36:20,002 --> 00:36:21,460
You better go
and talk to him now."
792
00:36:21,543 --> 00:36:23,794
I said, "Why?"
He said, "Because he's septic.
793
00:36:23,877 --> 00:36:26,002
"I don't think he will live
794
00:36:26,085 --> 00:36:28,168
to see the morning."
795
00:36:28,252 --> 00:36:31,752
So the chief of base wrote
a cable about the situation,
796
00:36:31,835 --> 00:36:34,877
and the answer came back,
short and sweet:
797
00:36:34,961 --> 00:36:37,585
"Death is not an option."
798
00:36:37,669 --> 00:36:40,835
We had to come up
with a cover story
799
00:36:40,919 --> 00:36:43,627
to take him to a hospital.
800
00:36:43,710 --> 00:36:46,168
We were wearing
military uniforms,
801
00:36:46,252 --> 00:36:48,168
said he was one
of our soldiers,
802
00:36:48,252 --> 00:36:50,502
that he went crazy
and he got shot.
803
00:36:50,585 --> 00:36:53,835
And that's why we're
taking him for medical care.
804
00:36:53,919 --> 00:36:55,085
Reporter:
Abu Zubaydah,
805
00:36:55,168 --> 00:36:56,669
Al-Qaeda's
top field commander,
806
00:36:56,752 --> 00:36:57,794
is talking.
807
00:36:57,877 --> 00:36:59,460
The trouble is,
American interrogators
808
00:36:59,543 --> 00:37:01,669
are not sure
whether to believe him.
809
00:37:01,752 --> 00:37:03,085
Donald Rumsfeld:
I don't know
that I want to give
810
00:37:03,168 --> 00:37:05,961
a day-to-day report
on, on his, uh,
811
00:37:06,043 --> 00:37:09,835
how enthusiastic he is
about his situation.
812
00:37:09,919 --> 00:37:14,085
Um... he is not well.
813
00:37:14,168 --> 00:37:16,460
He's got
several bullet holes in him,
814
00:37:16,543 --> 00:37:17,961
and, uh...
815
00:37:19,377 --> 00:37:20,794
well, how fast he'll recover
816
00:37:20,877 --> 00:37:24,627
and when he'll start
cooperating, time will tell.
817
00:37:28,210 --> 00:37:30,377
Jones: While Abu Zubaydah
is in the hospital,
818
00:37:30,460 --> 00:37:32,002
things begin to change.
819
00:37:33,252 --> 00:37:35,002
It's during
this period of time
820
00:37:35,085 --> 00:37:37,961
that Jim Mitchell is sent
to the detention site.
821
00:37:39,085 --> 00:37:40,877
He goes merely
as an observer
822
00:37:40,961 --> 00:37:43,919
and to provide feedback
to CIA headquarters.
823
00:37:44,002 --> 00:37:46,252
But his influence
becomes very clear.
824
00:37:46,335 --> 00:37:48,043
They talk about
returning Abu Zubaydah
825
00:37:48,126 --> 00:37:50,210
to the detention site
in an all-white room,
826
00:37:50,293 --> 00:37:51,418
which is very bright,
827
00:37:51,502 --> 00:37:53,835
kept cold.
828
00:37:53,919 --> 00:37:56,835
He'll be kept naked
and sleep deprived.
829
00:37:56,919 --> 00:37:58,877
These are the ideas
that are coming about.
830
00:37:58,961 --> 00:38:00,835
Even though he's not
particularly doing
the interrogation,
831
00:38:00,919 --> 00:38:02,794
these are his ideas
that he's pushing forward.
832
00:38:02,877 --> 00:38:04,669
Gibney: They weren't
asking you at that time
833
00:38:04,752 --> 00:38:06,669
to help with interrogations,
or were they?
834
00:38:06,752 --> 00:38:08,502
Not to do
interrogations.
835
00:38:08,585 --> 00:38:11,168
They were help-- asking me
to help brainstorm
836
00:38:11,252 --> 00:38:14,543
with the interrogation team,
the whole interrogation team,
837
00:38:14,627 --> 00:38:17,669
uh, any countermeasures
that they might use,
838
00:38:17,752 --> 00:38:21,710
if he was employing
resistance techniques.
839
00:38:23,502 --> 00:38:26,252
Soufan: He stayed
in the hospital, recovering.
840
00:38:26,335 --> 00:38:29,043
We get a clearance
from the doctors
that we can talk to him,
841
00:38:29,126 --> 00:38:32,168
and we went back
to talking about
842
00:38:32,252 --> 00:38:33,794
what he knows
about a plot.
843
00:38:35,418 --> 00:38:37,043
So I asked him,
844
00:38:37,126 --> 00:38:40,752
"Do you know if Bin Laden
is planning to do anything?"
845
00:38:40,835 --> 00:38:42,585
He said, "Yes,
Al-Qaeda is planning
846
00:38:42,669 --> 00:38:43,961
"to do something.
847
00:38:44,043 --> 00:38:45,460
He has his own people."
848
00:38:45,543 --> 00:38:48,335
I said, "Are you aware of
an operation that's ongoing?"
849
00:38:48,418 --> 00:38:50,752
He said, "Yes,
there's an operation
850
00:38:50,835 --> 00:38:54,543
against an American facility
in a foreign country."
851
00:38:54,627 --> 00:38:56,585
So I said,
"Who's doing this operation?
852
00:38:56,669 --> 00:38:57,961
He said, "al-Zayyat."
853
00:38:58,043 --> 00:39:00,085
We know al-Zayyat
is an alias
854
00:39:00,168 --> 00:39:02,293
for Abu Mohamed al-Masri,
855
00:39:02,377 --> 00:39:03,585
who was the mastermind
856
00:39:03,669 --> 00:39:06,794
of the East Africa
embassy bombings.
857
00:39:06,877 --> 00:39:09,126
Gaudin: So Ali and I
came up with a plan
858
00:39:09,210 --> 00:39:11,293
to show him a photo
of this guy,
859
00:39:11,377 --> 00:39:14,460
and if he identifies him,
he's working with us.
860
00:39:14,543 --> 00:39:17,961
I'm not saying he's giving us
the keys to the kingdom,
861
00:39:18,043 --> 00:39:19,877
but we can walk out
of the room and go,
862
00:39:19,961 --> 00:39:21,293
"Hey, I think we're
at the point now we can
863
00:39:21,377 --> 00:39:24,794
start asking him questions
to answers we don't know."
864
00:39:24,877 --> 00:39:28,627
So I had
this electronic organizer,
865
00:39:28,710 --> 00:39:30,752
the HP Jordana.
866
00:39:30,835 --> 00:39:32,418
Soufan:
Steve had downloaded
867
00:39:32,502 --> 00:39:35,293
the poster of
the 22 most-wanted terrorists
868
00:39:35,377 --> 00:39:37,961
that the FBI released
after 9/11.
869
00:39:38,085 --> 00:39:39,794
It had the people
who were involved
870
00:39:39,877 --> 00:39:41,502
in the East Africa
embassy bombings,
871
00:39:41,585 --> 00:39:44,043
the "USS Cole,"
and the Khobar bombing.
872
00:39:44,126 --> 00:39:45,669
All these individuals,
873
00:39:45,752 --> 00:39:48,002
from Mugniyah
to Bin Laden.
874
00:39:48,085 --> 00:39:51,710
So, Steve clicks a photo,
gives me the Palm Pilot.
875
00:39:51,794 --> 00:39:54,835
I didn't look at it to check
if it's the right person,
876
00:39:54,919 --> 00:39:56,252
but I showed Abu Zubaydah.
877
00:39:56,335 --> 00:39:57,961
I said, "Is this the guy?"
878
00:39:58,043 --> 00:40:00,168
And Abu Zubaydah said,
879
00:40:00,252 --> 00:40:02,293
"No, it's not."
880
00:40:02,377 --> 00:40:05,293
I was convinced that al-Zayyat
is Abu Mohamed al-Masri,
881
00:40:05,377 --> 00:40:08,460
and I thought that
he's playing games.
882
00:40:08,543 --> 00:40:09,877
So I was really frustrated.
883
00:40:09,961 --> 00:40:12,293
I'm like, "Dude,
we saved your life.
884
00:40:12,377 --> 00:40:14,710
"We're sitting here
like your next of kin,
885
00:40:14,794 --> 00:40:16,293
and you're still
playing games with us."
886
00:40:16,377 --> 00:40:17,669
And Abu Zubaydah
had enough of me.
887
00:40:17,752 --> 00:40:19,919
He said, "Come on, brother,
I'm not playing games.
888
00:40:20,043 --> 00:40:21,210
You know who the guy is."
889
00:40:21,293 --> 00:40:23,543
I said,
"Who the fuck is he then?"
890
00:40:23,627 --> 00:40:27,252
And he said,
"Well, this is Mokhtar."
891
00:40:27,335 --> 00:40:31,627
And when he said "Mokhtar,"
my heart stopped.
892
00:40:31,710 --> 00:40:35,377
Mokhtar, as Abu Zubaydah
identified from the picture,
893
00:40:35,460 --> 00:40:37,794
was Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.
894
00:40:37,877 --> 00:40:39,919
(indistinct chatter)
895
00:40:42,418 --> 00:40:45,627
After 9/11, we had
an operation in Afghanistan
896
00:40:45,710 --> 00:40:47,752
where they found videotapes
897
00:40:47,835 --> 00:40:49,460
and documents
898
00:40:49,543 --> 00:40:52,585
in Al-Qaeda's
military community.
899
00:40:52,669 --> 00:40:54,877
One of the videos
is Bin Laden talking
900
00:40:54,961 --> 00:40:57,418
to a paraplegic mullah.
901
00:40:57,502 --> 00:40:59,126
He's talking about 9/11,
902
00:40:59,210 --> 00:41:02,293
praising the operatives
and the operation.
903
00:41:02,377 --> 00:41:04,669
And every time he talks,
he points towards
904
00:41:04,752 --> 00:41:07,252
an individual
next to the camera
905
00:41:07,335 --> 00:41:08,627
and he says, "Mokhtar."
906
00:41:08,710 --> 00:41:10,126
Mokhtar.
907
00:41:10,210 --> 00:41:11,794
Soufan: And then he starts
talking about people
908
00:41:11,877 --> 00:41:13,585
having dreams that
there is Al-Qaeda
909
00:41:13,669 --> 00:41:15,252
playing karate
with America
910
00:41:15,335 --> 00:41:16,835
and Mokhtar is the trainer,
911
00:41:16,919 --> 00:41:18,877
and he's pointing
at Mokhtar.
912
00:41:18,961 --> 00:41:21,085
So we knew that
Mokhtar is important,
913
00:41:21,168 --> 00:41:23,543
but we had no idea
who Mokhtar was.
914
00:41:23,627 --> 00:41:25,043
(monitor beeping)
915
00:41:25,126 --> 00:41:28,919
But we cannot show
Abu Zubaydah that we
did not know that.
916
00:41:29,002 --> 00:41:30,835
So I said,
"Oh, Mokhtar."
917
00:41:30,919 --> 00:41:34,126
He said, "Yeah, you know,
the guy who did
the plane operation."
918
00:41:35,126 --> 00:41:36,460
Basically 9/11.
919
00:41:37,710 --> 00:41:39,752
So he told me that
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed
920
00:41:39,835 --> 00:41:41,002
came to visit him.
921
00:41:41,085 --> 00:41:44,043
He had a plan
to take Cessna planes
922
00:41:44,126 --> 00:41:46,502
and fly them into
the World Trade Center,
923
00:41:46,585 --> 00:41:51,043
and he needed resources
for this operation.
924
00:41:51,126 --> 00:41:53,377
Zubaydah told him,
"This is way above me.
925
00:41:53,460 --> 00:41:56,835
I don't have this capability,
nor such resources."
926
00:41:56,919 --> 00:41:58,710
But according
to Abu Zubaydah,
927
00:41:58,794 --> 00:42:01,585
when KSM briefed
the idea later on
928
00:42:01,669 --> 00:42:03,210
to Osama Bin Laden
929
00:42:03,293 --> 00:42:05,877
and some of his
senior lieutenants,
930
00:42:05,961 --> 00:42:08,627
Bin Laden was
not excited about it.
931
00:42:08,710 --> 00:42:11,961
He commented, "Why do you
want to go to war
932
00:42:12,043 --> 00:42:13,502
"with an axe
933
00:42:13,585 --> 00:42:15,418
when you can go
with a bulldozer?"
934
00:42:15,502 --> 00:42:18,210
(sirens wailing)
935
00:42:18,293 --> 00:42:19,835
Man: You better
get out of the way!
936
00:42:21,752 --> 00:42:23,710
(monitor beeping)
937
00:42:26,877 --> 00:42:29,502
But again, we cannot
make him feel
938
00:42:29,585 --> 00:42:32,168
that he gave us something
we didn't know.
939
00:42:32,252 --> 00:42:34,669
So I looked at the picture,
I'm like,
940
00:42:34,752 --> 00:42:36,543
"Oh, Steve,
941
00:42:36,627 --> 00:42:39,293
you gave me KSM's photo,
come on, man."
942
00:42:39,377 --> 00:42:42,418
And Steve looked at it,
and then Steve realized
943
00:42:42,502 --> 00:42:43,835
exactly what was going on.
944
00:42:43,919 --> 00:42:46,835
We leave the room and Ali
and I are just shaking.
945
00:42:46,919 --> 00:42:48,794
Did that really just happen?
946
00:42:48,877 --> 00:42:51,794
We just identified
who did 9/11.
947
00:42:51,877 --> 00:42:53,961
That was a huge moment.
948
00:42:54,877 --> 00:42:57,627
So we send it to the CIA.
949
00:42:57,710 --> 00:42:59,794
We were kind of, like, high.
950
00:42:59,877 --> 00:43:02,418
We just identified KSM
as the mastermind of 9/11,
951
00:43:02,502 --> 00:43:03,710
and we get another plot.
952
00:43:03,794 --> 00:43:06,669
You know, we were doing our job
and you just feel that,
953
00:43:06,752 --> 00:43:09,293
you know, wow,
it's working well.
954
00:43:09,377 --> 00:43:11,210
Right. So you're pleased
about that.
955
00:43:14,335 --> 00:43:17,085
Rizzo: I was still hearing
progress reports nightly
956
00:43:17,168 --> 00:43:19,543
from our CIA people.
957
00:43:19,627 --> 00:43:22,210
And they were
increasingly convinced
958
00:43:22,293 --> 00:43:24,418
that while he was providing
959
00:43:25,335 --> 00:43:27,043
some good information,
960
00:43:27,126 --> 00:43:29,418
he was definitely
holding back
961
00:43:29,502 --> 00:43:31,252
on the more important stuff,
962
00:43:31,335 --> 00:43:34,418
namely the location
and timing
963
00:43:34,502 --> 00:43:37,877
of another
major terrorist attack.
964
00:43:37,961 --> 00:43:41,168
So that led to people from
our Counterterrorism Center
965
00:43:41,252 --> 00:43:44,752
deciding that the normal
interrogation techniques
966
00:43:44,835 --> 00:43:46,585
that had been applied
up to that point
967
00:43:46,669 --> 00:43:48,627
weren't going to work.
968
00:43:48,710 --> 00:43:51,252
Something more aggressive
had to be done.
969
00:43:53,418 --> 00:43:55,168
Soufan:
Abu Zubaydah was moved
970
00:43:55,252 --> 00:43:56,585
from the hospital,
971
00:43:56,669 --> 00:43:58,418
and they took him back
to the site
972
00:43:58,502 --> 00:44:01,877
that we originally were in.
973
00:44:01,961 --> 00:44:03,252
And, at the black site,
974
00:44:03,335 --> 00:44:06,627
a new team from CTC
had shown up.
975
00:44:09,210 --> 00:44:12,002
The team was comprised
of individuals
976
00:44:12,085 --> 00:44:13,794
that I will give aliases to,
977
00:44:13,877 --> 00:44:16,377
and these aliases
I used in my book.
978
00:44:17,460 --> 00:44:18,794
So there is Wilson,
979
00:44:18,877 --> 00:44:21,335
one of the top
CIA behavioral analysts.
980
00:44:21,418 --> 00:44:24,002
He had a lot of experience
in different regions,
981
00:44:24,085 --> 00:44:25,627
especially the Middle East.
982
00:44:25,710 --> 00:44:27,835
I worked with him before.
983
00:44:27,919 --> 00:44:31,168
Then there was Ed.
He's a CIA interrogator.
984
00:44:31,252 --> 00:44:33,794
We did a few
interrogations together.
985
00:44:33,877 --> 00:44:36,293
There was Frank.
He was a polygrapher.
986
00:44:36,377 --> 00:44:38,961
And then they had
a contractor.
987
00:44:39,043 --> 00:44:40,502
I call him Boris.
988
00:44:40,585 --> 00:44:45,919
But since then, he has been
actively vocal, uh, about this,
989
00:44:46,002 --> 00:44:48,002
so I don't think
anybody will mind me
990
00:44:48,085 --> 00:44:50,502
calling him with his real name,
James Mitchell.
991
00:44:50,585 --> 00:44:53,752
The people who had conducted
a lot of interrogations before
992
00:44:53,835 --> 00:44:57,460
failed to do the job
that the CIA wanted.
993
00:44:57,543 --> 00:45:00,710
So they were looking to use
what I knew about psychology
994
00:45:00,794 --> 00:45:02,502
as a weapon
against our enemies
995
00:45:02,585 --> 00:45:05,335
so that we could
get them to talk.
996
00:45:05,418 --> 00:45:07,043
Soufan:
Wilson introduced Mitchell,
997
00:45:07,126 --> 00:45:10,085
saying that he knows
about interrogation.
998
00:45:10,168 --> 00:45:14,502
He has a strategy.
The strategy can work.
999
00:45:14,585 --> 00:45:16,126
Steve and I were just
looking at each other.
1000
00:45:16,210 --> 00:45:19,210
I'm like,
"Well, it's working."
1001
00:45:19,293 --> 00:45:21,669
You know, "If, uh, if
it's working, why break it?"
1002
00:45:21,752 --> 00:45:24,835
Now, it was like,
"Stop what you're doing.
1003
00:45:24,919 --> 00:45:27,627
"'The A-Team' is coming in
and they're taking over.
1004
00:45:27,710 --> 00:45:28,961
You guys are done."
1005
00:45:41,877 --> 00:45:43,085
Soufan:
Mitchell said, look,
1006
00:45:43,168 --> 00:45:45,710
you take everything
away from him
1007
00:45:45,794 --> 00:45:49,210
to the point that
his life, his death,
1008
00:45:49,293 --> 00:45:52,502
his comfort all depends
on the interrogator.
1009
00:45:52,585 --> 00:45:55,168
Mitchell said,
and I'll never forget
1010
00:45:55,252 --> 00:45:56,835
the way his fingers moved,
1011
00:45:56,919 --> 00:46:00,418
"We need to diminish
his capacity to resist."
1012
00:46:00,502 --> 00:46:03,377
Soufan:
This way, he will immediately
start cooperating
1013
00:46:03,460 --> 00:46:05,669
and give you
everything you want.
1014
00:46:05,752 --> 00:46:09,252
And he will see
only one interrogator.
1015
00:46:09,335 --> 00:46:11,794
Only one interrogator.
Nobody else.
1016
00:46:11,877 --> 00:46:13,252
The next time
you meet with him,
1017
00:46:13,335 --> 00:46:16,002
you say, "Our boss
is upset with you."
1018
00:46:16,085 --> 00:46:19,669
You introduce the boss,
which is going to be Ed.
1019
00:46:19,752 --> 00:46:22,961
And then you walk
and you'll never see him again.
1020
00:46:23,043 --> 00:46:25,627
That's it.
So Ed is going to be his god.
1021
00:46:27,210 --> 00:46:30,460
Gibney: With a new god
came a new white Heaven.
1022
00:46:36,627 --> 00:46:38,502
Years later,
while in Guantanamo,
1023
00:46:38,585 --> 00:46:41,335
Abu Zubaydah penned
descriptions and drawings
1024
00:46:41,418 --> 00:46:43,377
of what happened
to him in Thailand.
1025
00:46:55,502 --> 00:46:57,460
(keys jingling,
gate clanks)
1026
00:47:09,919 --> 00:47:11,877
Soufan:
So they put him in the cell.
1027
00:47:11,961 --> 00:47:14,043
They put cameras,
hidden CCTV.
1028
00:47:14,126 --> 00:47:16,126
They were recording
everything.
1029
00:47:16,210 --> 00:47:18,877
He's totally naked.
He has nothing.
1030
00:47:18,961 --> 00:47:22,961
So then Ed walks in,
and Ed tells him,
1031
00:47:23,043 --> 00:47:24,919
"Tell me what
I want to know."
1032
00:47:25,002 --> 00:47:28,293
And Abu Zubaydah
looks at him and he said,
"What do you want to know?"
1033
00:47:28,377 --> 00:47:30,627
An Ed cannot
tell him anything.
1034
00:47:30,710 --> 00:47:33,126
The only thing,
the only thing that Ed can do,
1035
00:47:33,210 --> 00:47:36,293
the instructions
from "the expert"
1036
00:47:36,377 --> 00:47:38,418
is to turn and get out.
1037
00:47:38,502 --> 00:47:40,252
(keys jingling,
gate clanks)
1038
00:47:42,752 --> 00:47:45,752
So they add something
to make Abu Zubaydah's life
more uncomfortable:
1039
00:47:45,835 --> 00:47:46,669
loud music.
1040
00:47:46,752 --> 00:47:48,794
(rock music blaring)
1041
00:47:55,460 --> 00:47:58,502
Then, you wait
for 12 hours or so
1042
00:47:58,585 --> 00:47:59,835
and then he does it again.
1043
00:47:59,919 --> 00:48:01,085
"Tell me what
I want to know."
1044
00:48:01,168 --> 00:48:02,627
"Well, what do you
want to know?"
1045
00:48:02,710 --> 00:48:03,919
You walk out.
1046
00:48:05,085 --> 00:48:07,335
The music that
they played initially
1047
00:48:07,418 --> 00:48:10,543
was music
that the guards had.
1048
00:48:10,627 --> 00:48:12,002
(rock music playing)
1049
00:48:12,085 --> 00:48:14,043
And it was as bad for us
as it was for him
1050
00:48:14,126 --> 00:48:16,627
because we're
in that same building,
1051
00:48:16,710 --> 00:48:18,669
not far from where he's at,
and it's blaring.
1052
00:48:18,752 --> 00:48:20,835
(rock music blaring)
1053
00:48:31,252 --> 00:48:35,543
Eventually, we went
to white noise generators
1054
00:48:35,627 --> 00:48:38,377
because nobody wanted
to listen to that music.
1055
00:48:38,460 --> 00:48:41,585
(static hissing)
1056
00:48:46,627 --> 00:48:49,377
So it goes from this
to sleep deprivation,
1057
00:48:49,460 --> 00:48:52,002
"24 hours didn't work.
Maybe we need 48 hours.
1058
00:48:52,085 --> 00:48:54,710
Oh, 48 hours didn't work.
Maybe we need 72 hours."
1059
00:48:54,794 --> 00:48:56,210
And nothing's coming out.
1060
00:48:56,293 --> 00:49:00,585
(static hissing)
1061
00:49:00,669 --> 00:49:03,543
So they decided to go back
to the loud music,
1062
00:49:03,627 --> 00:49:07,627
the same song again
and again and again, very loud.
1063
00:49:07,710 --> 00:49:09,460
Gibney: Do you remember
what the song was?
1064
00:49:09,543 --> 00:49:12,669
I think it was, uh,
Red Hot Chili Peppers.
1065
00:49:12,752 --> 00:49:14,293
It was the only CD
that somebody had.
1066
00:49:14,377 --> 00:49:16,919
Something like, you know,
it was just going, going around.
1067
00:49:17,002 --> 00:49:19,460
♪ What I got you got
to give it to your mama ♪
1068
00:49:19,543 --> 00:49:23,002
♪ What I got you've got
to give it to your papa ♪
1069
00:49:23,085 --> 00:49:26,335
I used to like them until now.
I never listened to them again.
1070
00:49:26,418 --> 00:49:29,168
♪ Give it away, give it away,
give it away now ♪
1071
00:49:29,252 --> 00:49:31,752
♪ Give it away,
give it away,
give it away now ♪
1072
00:49:31,835 --> 00:49:34,043
♪ Give it away, give it away,
give it away now ♪
1073
00:49:34,126 --> 00:49:37,210
♪ I can't tell if I'm
a kingpin or a pauper ♪
1074
00:49:37,293 --> 00:49:40,002
♪ ♪
1075
00:49:41,502 --> 00:49:43,043
(water splashes)
1076
00:49:46,168 --> 00:49:48,543
Soufan:
I spoke with Wilson,
1077
00:49:48,627 --> 00:49:50,293
the other psychologist,
1078
00:49:50,377 --> 00:49:51,877
and I said,
"This is crazy."
1079
00:49:51,961 --> 00:49:54,002
And he said, "Look, this guy
is supposedly an expert.
1080
00:49:54,085 --> 00:49:55,293
"He knows what he's doing.
1081
00:49:55,377 --> 00:49:57,669
"What if he's successful?
That will be really good.
1082
00:49:57,752 --> 00:50:00,877
"You know, we don't have
the time and the experts
1083
00:50:00,961 --> 00:50:02,961
"to talk to
all these people.
1084
00:50:03,043 --> 00:50:04,627
Give him a chance."
1085
00:50:04,710 --> 00:50:05,961
But I looked at Wilson,
1086
00:50:06,043 --> 00:50:08,627
and I think
he was just being
1087
00:50:08,710 --> 00:50:09,669
a good soldier
1088
00:50:09,752 --> 00:50:12,126
and saying
the company line.
1089
00:50:12,210 --> 00:50:14,252
But a decision has been made
1090
00:50:14,335 --> 00:50:16,543
in a place way higher
than all of us.
1091
00:50:17,543 --> 00:50:18,460
At one point, they had
1092
00:50:18,543 --> 00:50:20,126
everything approved
by Gonzales.
1093
00:50:20,210 --> 00:50:21,293
And my thing is like,
1094
00:50:21,377 --> 00:50:23,043
"Who the hell is Gonzales?
Is he from DOJ?"
1095
00:50:23,126 --> 00:50:25,752
I had no idea
who Gonzales was at the time.
1096
00:50:25,835 --> 00:50:29,669
And he said, "No, I,
I think he's Bush's lawyer."
1097
00:50:29,752 --> 00:50:32,085
I was like,
"But is he part of DOJ?
1098
00:50:32,168 --> 00:50:34,543
He said,
"I... don't think so.
1099
00:50:34,627 --> 00:50:36,418
I think he's part
of the White House."
1100
00:50:36,502 --> 00:50:38,168
So I said,
"No, we need DOJ."
1101
00:50:38,252 --> 00:50:41,252
They came back and said,
"DOJ gave verbal approval."
1102
00:50:41,335 --> 00:50:43,460
"Verbal approval
don't mean anything.
1103
00:50:43,543 --> 00:50:45,085
"You're in the CIA.
I'm in the FBI.
1104
00:50:45,168 --> 00:50:46,460
"You know what
the saying is,
1105
00:50:46,543 --> 00:50:49,168
if it's not on paper,
it doesn't exist."
1106
00:50:49,252 --> 00:50:51,168
Gibney: The man
who gave verbal approval
1107
00:50:51,252 --> 00:50:53,585
was John Yoo from
the Department of Justice.
1108
00:50:53,669 --> 00:50:56,043
He provided
unofficial reassurance
1109
00:50:56,126 --> 00:50:57,669
to the CIA,
the White House,
1110
00:50:57,752 --> 00:50:59,418
and the US Attorney General
1111
00:50:59,502 --> 00:51:02,669
that Mitchell's experiments
need not be considered torture
1112
00:51:02,752 --> 00:51:05,168
as long as the interrogators
didn't intend
1113
00:51:05,252 --> 00:51:07,502
to cause severe pain
or suffering.
1114
00:51:16,377 --> 00:51:17,794
Soufan:
These things were going on
1115
00:51:17,877 --> 00:51:20,335
in April, in May.
1116
00:51:20,418 --> 00:51:21,710
Suddenly...
1117
00:51:23,877 --> 00:51:25,669
all intelligence
1118
00:51:25,752 --> 00:51:28,168
that was
flowing before stopped.
1119
00:51:29,377 --> 00:51:31,585
And people in D.C.
were asking...
1120
00:51:32,377 --> 00:51:33,752
"What's going on?"
1121
00:51:36,585 --> 00:51:39,877
A few days and nothing
is coming out from that base.
1122
00:51:39,961 --> 00:51:43,669
Even though everything
that they requested
has been approved.
1123
00:51:45,961 --> 00:51:47,794
And nothing's coming out.
1124
00:51:47,877 --> 00:51:50,335
So Wilson mounted
a campaign
1125
00:51:50,418 --> 00:51:53,335
to bring Steve and I back
to the interrogation room.
1126
00:51:53,418 --> 00:51:55,669
And this was
the first violation
1127
00:51:55,752 --> 00:51:57,752
of the cardinal rule
of Mitchell,
1128
00:51:57,835 --> 00:52:00,168
that he will only see
one person.
1129
00:52:00,252 --> 00:52:03,126
It is going to be Ed,
and he's his god.
1130
00:52:03,210 --> 00:52:06,502
Now, all of a sudden...
we're back.
1131
00:52:08,252 --> 00:52:11,252
I made a cup of tea, and I
brought it to Abu Zubaydah,
1132
00:52:11,335 --> 00:52:13,585
I said, "Take it.
That will make you feel better."
1133
00:52:13,669 --> 00:52:16,043
We covered him
to help him warm up.
1134
00:52:20,669 --> 00:52:23,335
That's something
I told Wilson
1135
00:52:23,418 --> 00:52:25,794
when he brought us back in.
1136
00:52:25,877 --> 00:52:28,502
I said, "I will never talk
to him naked. Period.
1137
00:52:28,585 --> 00:52:32,543
"I will never do that.
I know that's your rule.
1138
00:52:32,627 --> 00:52:36,543
It's approved by Langley,
but I won't go in."
1139
00:52:36,627 --> 00:52:38,877
Abu Zubaydah took the tea,
he drank some,
1140
00:52:38,961 --> 00:52:40,835
and he looked at me
and he smiled.
1141
00:52:47,377 --> 00:52:49,627
It was tough
to reengage Abu Zubaydah.
1142
00:52:49,710 --> 00:52:51,794
He really had no clue
what's happening,
1143
00:52:51,877 --> 00:52:54,377
But we tried
to reengage him,
1144
00:52:54,460 --> 00:52:55,794
and we were able
to bring him back.
1145
00:52:55,877 --> 00:52:58,543
We started the rapport again.
1146
00:52:58,627 --> 00:53:01,002
And sometimes
he's that guy
1147
00:53:01,085 --> 00:53:03,460
that you can sit down
and talk to about everything,
1148
00:53:03,543 --> 00:53:05,961
from social justice
to economic justice.
1149
00:53:06,043 --> 00:53:08,752
That guy wasn't
a typical Qaeda operative.
1150
00:53:08,835 --> 00:53:11,126
Rarely he talked
about religion.
1151
00:53:11,210 --> 00:53:13,502
He was more into
American corporations
1152
00:53:13,585 --> 00:53:14,794
controlling the world,
1153
00:53:14,877 --> 00:53:16,961
the United States
destroying grain
1154
00:53:17,043 --> 00:53:19,877
and agricultural products
to maintain prices,
1155
00:53:19,961 --> 00:53:22,377
and the fact that
Americans spend more money
1156
00:53:22,460 --> 00:53:26,168
on their pets
when people are hungry
around the world.
1157
00:53:26,252 --> 00:53:27,418
And I don't argue with him.
1158
00:53:27,502 --> 00:53:29,210
I take these opportunities
1159
00:53:29,293 --> 00:53:30,835
for us to build rapport.
1160
00:53:30,919 --> 00:53:33,210
So I can be lectured
about all these
kind of things,
1161
00:53:33,293 --> 00:53:34,335
you know,
I give him something.
1162
00:53:34,418 --> 00:53:36,168
This is one of the things
that I give him,
1163
00:53:36,252 --> 00:53:38,919
to lecture me
about his views
1164
00:53:39,002 --> 00:53:41,377
of the United States
and the world.
1165
00:53:41,460 --> 00:53:43,293
So I said, "Look, I'm going
to go and get a soda.
1166
00:53:43,377 --> 00:53:45,961
You want anything?"
He said, "Pepsi."
1167
00:53:46,043 --> 00:53:47,502
I said,
"Are you kidding me?
1168
00:53:47,585 --> 00:53:49,168
"After lecturing me
for an hour
1169
00:53:49,252 --> 00:53:51,043
"about American corporations,
1170
00:53:51,126 --> 00:53:52,335
you want Pepsi?"
1171
00:53:52,418 --> 00:53:54,627
He said, "Yeah,
I'm embarrassed,
but I like Pepsi."
1172
00:53:54,710 --> 00:53:55,835
(laughs)
1173
00:53:58,293 --> 00:54:00,710
But Mitchell continued
to interfere.
1174
00:54:03,543 --> 00:54:05,210
Like, one point,
for example,
1175
00:54:05,293 --> 00:54:07,585
we came to talk to him,
Steve and I.
1176
00:54:07,669 --> 00:54:09,252
We walked in the room,
in the cell,
1177
00:54:09,335 --> 00:54:10,835
and it was freezing cold.
1178
00:54:10,919 --> 00:54:12,252
Freezing cold.
1179
00:54:12,335 --> 00:54:14,794
And remember, Abu Zubaydah
was totally nude
1180
00:54:14,877 --> 00:54:17,335
and on the floor,
on a cement floor.
1181
00:54:18,418 --> 00:54:19,752
He looked bluish.
1182
00:54:19,835 --> 00:54:21,043
I went back and said,
1183
00:54:21,126 --> 00:54:22,543
"Are you playing
with the temperature?"
1184
00:54:22,627 --> 00:54:23,794
And he said,
"No, no, no."
1185
00:54:23,877 --> 00:54:25,085
I said, "Well, go
and check him out."
1186
00:54:25,168 --> 00:54:27,293
So he puts a mask,
he goes in,
1187
00:54:27,377 --> 00:54:29,293
he checks his vitals,
and he comes back.
1188
00:54:29,377 --> 00:54:31,043
And he was basically like,
1189
00:54:31,126 --> 00:54:33,418
"Pfah!
There's nothing going on.
1190
00:54:33,502 --> 00:54:34,460
He's fine."
1191
00:54:34,543 --> 00:54:36,585
As if we're making
that thing up.
1192
00:54:39,961 --> 00:54:42,043
Gibney: And it was
temperature manipulation--
1193
00:54:42,126 --> 00:54:44,168
Well, I saw
that temperature.
1194
00:54:44,252 --> 00:54:46,126
I saw the temperature
manipulation thing,
1195
00:54:46,210 --> 00:54:48,585
but I don't recall--
I don't actually re--
1196
00:54:48,669 --> 00:54:51,168
And I have no reason
to hide it. I--
1197
00:54:51,252 --> 00:54:53,126
because I don't,
you know what I mean?
1198
00:54:53,210 --> 00:54:55,543
But I don't remember
temperature manipulation.
1199
00:54:55,627 --> 00:54:56,919
I don't remember anybody
1200
00:54:57,002 --> 00:54:58,669
specifically manipulating
the temperature.
1201
00:54:58,752 --> 00:55:01,085
I don't remember that.
I've seen it in reports.
1202
00:55:01,168 --> 00:55:03,460
If it happened, it wasn't
while I was there.
1203
00:55:05,961 --> 00:55:07,877
He was nude a lot.
1204
00:55:07,961 --> 00:55:10,335
That was something that was
discussed with the physicians
1205
00:55:10,418 --> 00:55:12,377
because he had
a pretty severe leg wound,
1206
00:55:12,460 --> 00:55:14,418
and they were concerned
about infection.
1207
00:55:14,502 --> 00:55:16,627
(air conditioner rumbling)
1208
00:55:16,710 --> 00:55:18,710
I'm not saying that that's
the only reason he was nude.
1209
00:55:18,794 --> 00:55:22,585
He was nude to make him feel
vulnerable and uncomfortable.
1210
00:55:24,002 --> 00:55:25,418
Gaudin:
Mitchell seemed to be the one
1211
00:55:25,502 --> 00:55:27,377
that everybody
had to defer to,
1212
00:55:27,460 --> 00:55:29,710
and we would actually be
given questions saying,
1213
00:55:29,794 --> 00:55:31,418
"Okay, let's theorize.
1214
00:55:31,502 --> 00:55:33,585
"If you were going to do
an attack on the United States,
1215
00:55:33,669 --> 00:55:35,043
where would you do
an attack?"
1216
00:55:35,126 --> 00:55:36,794
And Zubaydah would say
something like,
1217
00:55:36,877 --> 00:55:39,126
"Well, you know,
I would look at your
biggest landmarks,
1218
00:55:39,210 --> 00:55:40,752
"something that would
hurt you.
1219
00:55:40,835 --> 00:55:41,961
"Maybe the Brooklyn Bridge
1220
00:55:42,043 --> 00:55:43,669
or maybe
the Statue of Liberty."
1221
00:55:43,752 --> 00:55:47,543
And then we would see on CNN
later that day or the next day,
1222
00:55:47,627 --> 00:55:48,961
the Statue of Liberty
is closed.
1223
00:55:49,043 --> 00:55:51,377
Brooklyn Bridge just closed.
1224
00:55:51,460 --> 00:55:53,168
My God.
(chuckles)
1225
00:55:53,252 --> 00:55:54,794
It was, it was nuts.
1226
00:55:56,377 --> 00:55:58,835
Soufan: Shows you what kind
of an operative he was, right?
1227
00:55:58,919 --> 00:56:00,669
He kinda figured out
what's going on.
1228
00:56:00,752 --> 00:56:03,543
But the cornerstone
of an interrogation is
1229
00:56:03,627 --> 00:56:06,710
what that suspect understands
1230
00:56:06,794 --> 00:56:08,752
the evidence
against them to be.
1231
00:56:09,627 --> 00:56:11,085
So, for example, we had
1232
00:56:11,168 --> 00:56:14,043
three taped calls
from Abu Zubaydah.
1233
00:56:14,126 --> 00:56:16,126
But having
Abu Zubaydah think
1234
00:56:16,210 --> 00:56:18,502
we only have
three conversation
1235
00:56:18,585 --> 00:56:19,752
does not work.
1236
00:56:19,835 --> 00:56:22,543
He's going to have
a different impression
1237
00:56:22,627 --> 00:56:25,710
of the information
that we have against him.
1238
00:56:25,794 --> 00:56:29,126
So we bought a few dozen
empty audiotapes,
1239
00:56:29,210 --> 00:56:31,502
painstakingly marked
all these tapes
1240
00:56:31,585 --> 00:56:34,377
and planned
the interrogation
1241
00:56:34,460 --> 00:56:36,961
so that every time he is trying
to lie about something,
1242
00:56:37,043 --> 00:56:39,543
we turned the conversation
into a tape
1243
00:56:39,627 --> 00:56:41,627
that we already have.
1244
00:56:41,710 --> 00:56:43,377
And by luck,
on one tape,
1245
00:56:43,460 --> 00:56:46,460
Abu Zubaydah forgot
to hang up.
1246
00:56:46,543 --> 00:56:48,877
So you can hear what's going on
in the background.
1247
00:56:50,543 --> 00:56:53,794
So Abu Zubaydah thought
that all these tapes
1248
00:56:53,877 --> 00:56:56,043
are not only phone calls.
1249
00:56:56,126 --> 00:56:58,669
He thought we had
a wire in his house.
1250
00:56:58,752 --> 00:57:02,835
So we changed his impression
of what we have on him.
1251
00:57:02,919 --> 00:57:03,877
And he starts talking.
1252
00:57:03,961 --> 00:57:07,543
(men singing
in foreign language)
1253
00:57:12,710 --> 00:57:16,168
Soufan:
After the "USS Cole,"
the Taliban shut down
1254
00:57:16,252 --> 00:57:19,043
all the Arab training camps
in Afghanistan.
1255
00:57:19,126 --> 00:57:21,126
So when Khalden
was shut down,
1256
00:57:21,210 --> 00:57:22,835
Abu Zubaydah doesn't have
a job anymore
1257
00:57:22,919 --> 00:57:24,418
to bring people
to Khalden.
1258
00:57:24,502 --> 00:57:26,502
So he came to Afghanistan.
1259
00:57:26,585 --> 00:57:28,669
And this is actually
the first time
1260
00:57:28,752 --> 00:57:30,627
that he met
Osama Bin Laden.
1261
00:57:34,085 --> 00:57:35,669
And when he arrived,
they said,
1262
00:57:35,752 --> 00:57:39,126
"Oh, so this is Abu Zubaydah
that we hear about."
1263
00:57:39,210 --> 00:57:42,210
He became very well known
in the jihadi networks.
1264
00:57:42,293 --> 00:57:44,627
He gets the money,
he gets the operatives.
1265
00:57:44,710 --> 00:57:46,585
He can smuggle people
left and right.
1266
00:57:46,669 --> 00:57:49,543
Anything you need,
Abu Zubaydah can get it.
1267
00:57:49,627 --> 00:57:51,919
So they gave him
protection in Kandahar,
1268
00:57:52,002 --> 00:57:54,877
and he was working with them
and he was trusted.
1269
00:57:56,168 --> 00:57:57,919
And then 9/11 happened,
1270
00:57:58,002 --> 00:58:01,835
and Abu Zubaydah decided
to also capitalize.
1271
00:58:01,919 --> 00:58:05,377
(speaking in foreign language)
1272
00:58:19,543 --> 00:58:22,085
Soufan: He wanted
to put a video out,
1273
00:58:22,168 --> 00:58:24,961
sell it
to Western media...
1274
00:58:25,043 --> 00:58:28,293
(speaking in foreign language)
1275
00:58:28,377 --> 00:58:30,460
Soufan: ...saying that
all the Arab Mujahideen
1276
00:58:30,543 --> 00:58:31,794
now are under Bin Laden.
1277
00:58:31,877 --> 00:58:33,460
He is their emir
in the fight
1278
00:58:33,543 --> 00:58:36,043
against the United States
and so forth,
1279
00:58:36,126 --> 00:58:38,627
and he wanted to do
different operations.
1280
00:58:40,377 --> 00:58:43,543
Mitchell:
They got intelligence
that Abu Zubaydah had sent
1281
00:58:43,627 --> 00:58:47,585
an American citizen
named Jose Padilla
1282
00:58:47,669 --> 00:58:48,752
to KSM
1283
00:58:48,835 --> 00:58:51,418
so that he could send him
to the United States
1284
00:58:51,502 --> 00:58:54,585
to join "the others
already on the ground"
1285
00:58:54,669 --> 00:58:57,585
and do possibly
a dirty bomb
1286
00:58:57,669 --> 00:59:00,543
or if not that,
some other kind of an attack.
1287
00:59:00,627 --> 00:59:03,752
And actually,
it was not, uh...
1288
00:59:05,168 --> 00:59:08,877
it was not
the Muslim FBI agent
1289
00:59:08,961 --> 00:59:11,002
that got the information
about Jose--
1290
00:59:11,085 --> 00:59:12,502
Gibney:
You mean Ali Soufan?
1291
00:59:12,585 --> 00:59:14,002
It was not Soufan,
it was the other one
1292
00:59:14,085 --> 00:59:15,168
whose name
I can't give you,
1293
00:59:15,252 --> 00:59:17,835
uh, because
it's still protected
1294
00:59:17,919 --> 00:59:20,502
by the government,
regardless of what's known
1295
00:59:20,585 --> 00:59:22,002
in the press, right?
1296
00:59:22,085 --> 00:59:25,627
So, uh, what happened
that night was
1297
00:59:25,710 --> 00:59:27,210
they had been, uh...
1298
00:59:27,293 --> 00:59:28,710
Gibney:
This was a strange moment
1299
00:59:28,794 --> 00:59:30,002
in the interview.
1300
00:59:30,085 --> 00:59:32,543
Mitchell felt he needed
to throw shade on Soufan,
1301
00:59:32,627 --> 00:59:34,877
whom he called
"the Muslim agent."
1302
00:59:34,961 --> 00:59:38,585
But he also acknowledged
that the FBI, not the CIA,
1303
00:59:38,669 --> 00:59:41,669
obtained critical information
about Jose Padilla.
1304
00:59:43,210 --> 00:59:46,168
Later on, the CIA would try
to rewrite the story
1305
00:59:46,252 --> 00:59:48,919
and claim EITs
caused Abu Zubaydah
1306
00:59:49,002 --> 00:59:51,418
to spill
the beans about Padilla.
1307
00:59:51,502 --> 00:59:53,543
That claim was false.
1308
00:59:53,627 --> 00:59:56,252
Soufan:
Padilla was arrested
1309
00:59:56,335 --> 00:59:59,002
because of smart police work.
1310
00:59:59,085 --> 01:00:00,877
We got some information
from Abu Zubaydah
1311
01:00:00,961 --> 01:00:02,543
about two individuals.
1312
01:00:02,627 --> 01:00:04,752
Put it in a cable
1313
01:00:04,835 --> 01:00:06,585
and some smart
intelligence officer
1314
01:00:06,669 --> 01:00:08,043
in Pakistan looked at it
and was like,
1315
01:00:08,126 --> 01:00:10,168
"Wait a second,
I just saw the passports
1316
01:00:10,252 --> 01:00:11,335
"of these two guys.
1317
01:00:11,418 --> 01:00:14,627
It seems they fit
the description."
1318
01:00:14,710 --> 01:00:15,835
Someone was able to say,
1319
01:00:15,919 --> 01:00:17,335
"You know what?
There were these two guys,
1320
01:00:17,418 --> 01:00:18,710
"there was an American
and British guy,
1321
01:00:18,794 --> 01:00:21,168
and the American was here
to get a new passport."
1322
01:00:21,252 --> 01:00:24,168
They just pulled on the thread
until they figured,
1323
01:00:24,252 --> 01:00:27,168
okay, is this the guy?
1324
01:00:27,252 --> 01:00:29,210
Gibney:
My understanding is that
Abu Zubaydah
1325
01:00:29,293 --> 01:00:31,585
had actually identified
the photo of Padilla.
1326
01:00:31,669 --> 01:00:35,085
And I think Padilla
was arrested in May 2002.
1327
01:00:35,168 --> 01:00:37,961
Well, he didn't identify
a picture of Padilla.
1328
01:00:38,043 --> 01:00:39,585
Your understanding
is incorrect.
1329
01:00:39,669 --> 01:00:41,043
-He mentions--
-Gibney: You're absolutely sure?
1330
01:00:41,126 --> 01:00:43,919
-I was there.
-Gibney: Uh-huh.
1331
01:00:44,002 --> 01:00:46,293
I was there...
1332
01:00:46,377 --> 01:00:48,961
for all of those interrogations
and watched all of them.
1333
01:00:49,043 --> 01:00:51,418
So, yeah,
I'm absolutely sure.
1334
01:00:51,502 --> 01:00:54,043
Gibney:
Actually, according to
declassified cables,
1335
01:00:54,126 --> 01:00:56,710
Abu Zubaydah
did identify Padilla's photo.
1336
01:00:56,794 --> 01:00:58,835
Zubaydah also revealed
1337
01:00:58,919 --> 01:01:01,543
that Padilla was not
the terrorist mastermind
1338
01:01:01,627 --> 01:01:03,460
the CIA imagined him to be.
1339
01:01:03,543 --> 01:01:06,293
Soufan: They wanted to go
to the United States,
1340
01:01:06,377 --> 01:01:08,043
hijack a uranium truck,
1341
01:01:08,126 --> 01:01:11,168
steal the uranium,
and build a dirty bomb.
1342
01:01:11,252 --> 01:01:13,961
And Abu Zubaydah said, "So how
do you enrich the uranium?"
1343
01:01:14,043 --> 01:01:16,418
And literally, they told him,
"We put it in a bucket
1344
01:01:16,502 --> 01:01:18,585
"and we turn
the bucket very fast,
1345
01:01:18,669 --> 01:01:20,543
and then that's how
it will be enriched."
1346
01:01:20,627 --> 01:01:23,418
And he was just like,
"Yeah, that does not work."
1347
01:01:23,502 --> 01:01:25,335
Zubaydah was like,
"Yeah, yeah, yeah,
1348
01:01:25,418 --> 01:01:26,961
that's exactly
what we should do."
1349
01:01:27,043 --> 01:01:28,043
But he was placating them.
1350
01:01:28,126 --> 01:01:30,168
I don't need this guy
to make a bomb.
1351
01:01:30,252 --> 01:01:33,043
I need this guy because
he has an American passport.
1352
01:01:33,126 --> 01:01:35,252
He knew the value
that it could have
1353
01:01:35,335 --> 01:01:38,460
to people that were actually
planning real operations.
1354
01:01:39,585 --> 01:01:42,252
Soufan: He called KSM
and he told him,
1355
01:01:42,335 --> 01:01:45,627
"I'm sending you these two
operatives, see what they have.
1356
01:01:45,710 --> 01:01:48,585
If you can use them in
an operation, they are yours."
1357
01:01:48,669 --> 01:01:51,877
Gibney:
KSM did send Jose Padilla
to the United States
1358
01:01:51,961 --> 01:01:55,710
allegedly to blow up a series
of apartment buildings.
1359
01:01:55,794 --> 01:01:58,168
He was arrested
in Chicago on May 8th,
1360
01:01:58,252 --> 01:02:01,252
just 15 days after
Abu Zubaydah identified him.
1361
01:02:05,043 --> 01:02:07,293
Despite Abu Zubaydah's
cooperation,
1362
01:02:07,377 --> 01:02:08,877
the CIA and Mitchell
1363
01:02:08,961 --> 01:02:12,085
kept pushing
to turn up the heat.
1364
01:02:12,168 --> 01:02:15,252
Soufan: Even when we
were allowed back in
under our condition,
1365
01:02:15,335 --> 01:02:16,752
they still
were playing games.
1366
01:02:16,835 --> 01:02:21,002
One day I walked in and
I saw a big coffin in the room.
1367
01:02:21,085 --> 01:02:22,460
I actually went in it.
1368
01:02:22,543 --> 01:02:24,543
I'm telling you,
it's not a good feeling.
1369
01:02:26,335 --> 01:02:27,585
You try to be professional.
1370
01:02:27,669 --> 01:02:30,377
You try to focus
on the mission.
1371
01:02:30,460 --> 01:02:33,460
But unfortunately, you know,
every day you bring him back,
1372
01:02:33,543 --> 01:02:36,043
and then they try
to play that game again.
1373
01:02:37,627 --> 01:02:40,168
And at this point,
everything that I was seeing
1374
01:02:40,252 --> 01:02:43,085
was kind of like
borderline torture.
1375
01:02:43,168 --> 01:02:45,502
But now we're even
crossing that line.
1376
01:02:48,085 --> 01:02:50,794
So I called
FBI headquarters.
1377
01:02:50,877 --> 01:02:53,168
I asked to speak
with my boss in New York.
1378
01:02:53,252 --> 01:02:55,043
I said, "Please,
I-I need to leave.
1379
01:02:55,126 --> 01:02:56,293
"I-I cannot stay here.
1380
01:02:56,377 --> 01:02:58,502
"If I stay here, I...
1381
01:02:58,585 --> 01:03:00,627
"I will probably
arrest that guy.
1382
01:03:00,710 --> 01:03:02,919
I mean, this is crazy."
1383
01:03:03,002 --> 01:03:06,794
So he said, "Okay,
I need you to leave
the location immediately."
1384
01:03:08,418 --> 01:03:12,210
And that was the end
of my involvement
in the black site.
1385
01:03:14,085 --> 01:03:16,585
Gibney: Soufan and
the CIA polygrapher returned
1386
01:03:16,669 --> 01:03:18,335
to the United States.
1387
01:03:18,418 --> 01:03:21,168
Mysteriously, the entire
interrogation team
1388
01:03:21,252 --> 01:03:22,543
soon followed.
1389
01:03:22,627 --> 01:03:25,002
All the questions
and answers stopped.
1390
01:03:25,085 --> 01:03:27,252
Abu Zubaydah was left alone
in his cell
1391
01:03:27,335 --> 01:03:31,126
where the only sound
was the hiss of
a white noise machine.
1392
01:03:34,543 --> 01:03:37,335
These are more than 100 pages
of interrogation notes
1393
01:03:37,418 --> 01:03:38,710
from Ali Soufan.
1394
01:03:38,794 --> 01:03:41,627
Though heavily redacted,
we can see they contain details
1395
01:03:41,710 --> 01:03:44,252
about future plots
and portraits of the people
1396
01:03:44,335 --> 01:03:47,043
in and around Al-Qaeda,
how they worked,
1397
01:03:47,126 --> 01:03:48,585
and what they were planning.
1398
01:03:48,669 --> 01:03:50,418
To the FBI,
it was a treasure trove
1399
01:03:50,502 --> 01:03:51,585
of evidence and proof
1400
01:03:51,669 --> 01:03:53,543
that Abu Zubaydah
was cooperating.
1401
01:03:53,627 --> 01:03:55,418
The CIA saw it differently.
1402
01:03:55,502 --> 01:03:57,002
Analysts in Washington
were certain
1403
01:03:57,085 --> 01:03:59,919
he was holding back
because he wasn't telling them
1404
01:04:00,002 --> 01:04:01,418
what they wanted to hear.
1405
01:04:01,502 --> 01:04:03,669
It was time to take
the gloves off.
1406
01:04:05,085 --> 01:04:07,210
Wilkerson:
We've tortured before.
1407
01:04:07,293 --> 01:04:09,877
We tortured
in the Philippines.
1408
01:04:09,961 --> 01:04:11,627
We tortured in Vietnam.
1409
01:04:13,752 --> 01:04:16,377
We are one of
the most violent people
1410
01:04:16,460 --> 01:04:18,126
on the face of the Earth.
1411
01:04:19,710 --> 01:04:24,293
To deny that is
to deny reality.
1412
01:04:24,377 --> 01:04:27,877
But we were the leaders
of the effort
1413
01:04:27,961 --> 01:04:30,085
to push through
the United Nations
1414
01:04:30,168 --> 01:04:31,919
the Convention against Torture
1415
01:04:32,002 --> 01:04:34,085
and Cruel
and Unusual Punishment.
1416
01:04:34,168 --> 01:04:36,252
We were the leaders
1417
01:04:36,335 --> 01:04:38,627
in getting
that phrase in there
1418
01:04:38,710 --> 01:04:40,293
that essentially says,
1419
01:04:40,377 --> 01:04:44,002
"No in extremis
national security conditions
1420
01:04:44,085 --> 01:04:46,877
warrant going beyond this."
1421
01:04:46,961 --> 01:04:49,877
After 9/11, we obviated
the whole thing.
1422
01:04:49,961 --> 01:04:52,877
We said, because of
national security concerns,
1423
01:04:52,961 --> 01:04:54,418
that's out the window.
1424
01:04:54,502 --> 01:04:58,335
This was the first time
that torture as a policy
1425
01:04:58,418 --> 01:04:59,543
was authorized
1426
01:04:59,627 --> 01:05:02,043
by the highest power
in the land.
1427
01:05:02,126 --> 01:05:04,293
Gibney: President Bush
paved the way for torture
1428
01:05:04,377 --> 01:05:07,126
when he signed an order saying
that the Geneva Conventions
1429
01:05:07,210 --> 01:05:08,961
did not apply
to Al-Qaeda.
1430
01:05:09,043 --> 01:05:11,877
That allowed George Tenet
to try something different
1431
01:05:11,961 --> 01:05:14,377
so long as Abu Zubaydah
was believed
1432
01:05:14,460 --> 01:05:16,335
to be a member
of Al-Qaeda.
1433
01:05:16,418 --> 01:05:18,835
President Bush today
has decided that Al-Qaeda
1434
01:05:18,919 --> 01:05:20,627
is an international
terrorist group
1435
01:05:20,710 --> 01:05:22,043
under the treaty.
1436
01:05:22,126 --> 01:05:24,168
Gibney: If members
of Al-Qaeda were different
1437
01:05:24,252 --> 01:05:25,710
from other prisoners of war,
1438
01:05:25,794 --> 01:05:28,126
then perhaps different
interrogation techniques
1439
01:05:28,210 --> 01:05:29,418
could be used,
1440
01:05:29,502 --> 01:05:32,252
but not so different as
to cause permanent damage,
1441
01:05:32,335 --> 01:05:34,877
which could be
evidence of torture.
1442
01:05:34,961 --> 01:05:37,377
That led the CIA
to retrofit a program
1443
01:05:37,460 --> 01:05:39,126
developed after
the Korean War,
1444
01:05:39,210 --> 01:05:41,335
in which we brutalized
our own soldiers
1445
01:05:41,418 --> 01:05:44,877
to prepare them to resist
the brutality of others.
1446
01:05:44,961 --> 01:05:48,961
If we did it to ourselves,
how bad could it be?
1447
01:05:49,043 --> 01:05:52,168
Col. Steven Kleinman:
When I started, I was
a human intelligence officer,
1448
01:05:52,252 --> 01:05:53,627
but then I had
an opportunity
1449
01:05:53,710 --> 01:05:55,252
to go on the other side
of the table
1450
01:05:55,335 --> 01:05:57,126
and work
in resistance training.
1451
01:05:57,210 --> 01:05:59,752
The CIA Enhanced
Interrogation Program
1452
01:05:59,835 --> 01:06:02,002
is the product
of the government's fear
1453
01:06:02,085 --> 01:06:04,252
of what they saw happen
during the Korean War.
1454
01:06:04,335 --> 01:06:05,710
Especially
the Chinese interrogators
1455
01:06:05,794 --> 01:06:07,877
were masterful
in their ability to manipulate.
1456
01:06:07,961 --> 01:06:10,210
They knew how to get people
to say things
1457
01:06:10,293 --> 01:06:12,460
that they didn't want to say,
and the CIA would say,
1458
01:06:12,543 --> 01:06:16,085
"Wow, if they can do that,
what else can they do?"
1459
01:06:16,168 --> 01:06:20,002
Allow me to introduce
our American visitors.
1460
01:06:20,085 --> 01:06:21,252
I must ask you to forgive
1461
01:06:21,335 --> 01:06:23,502
their somewhat
lackadaisical manners,
1462
01:06:23,585 --> 01:06:26,502
but I have conditioned them
or "brainwashed" them,
1463
01:06:26,585 --> 01:06:29,293
which I understand is
the new American word.
1464
01:06:29,377 --> 01:06:31,002
Take this scarf.
1465
01:06:34,085 --> 01:06:36,043
And strangle Ed Mavole.
1466
01:06:40,460 --> 01:06:42,293
-Hey, Sarge. Cut it out. What--
-Tut-tut-tut-tut.
1467
01:06:42,377 --> 01:06:44,126
Quiet, Ed, please.
1468
01:06:44,210 --> 01:06:46,043
Now you just
sit there quietly
1469
01:06:46,126 --> 01:06:47,794
and cooperate.
1470
01:06:48,543 --> 01:06:49,794
Yes, ma'am.
1471
01:06:52,210 --> 01:06:54,502
(choking)
1472
01:06:56,293 --> 01:06:58,585
Gibney:
The popular fear
of brainwashing,
1473
01:06:58,669 --> 01:07:01,252
making prisoners do
or say anything,
1474
01:07:01,335 --> 01:07:02,919
led every branch
of the military
1475
01:07:03,002 --> 01:07:04,961
to create schools
for soldiers
1476
01:07:05,043 --> 01:07:06,293
to learn how to survive,
1477
01:07:06,377 --> 01:07:08,752
evade capture,
resist interrogation
1478
01:07:08,835 --> 01:07:11,377
and, if possible, escape.
1479
01:07:11,460 --> 01:07:13,877
The so-called SERE School
for the Air Force
1480
01:07:13,961 --> 01:07:15,252
near Spokane, Washington,
1481
01:07:15,335 --> 01:07:18,460
is where James Mitchell
taught resistance.
1482
01:07:18,543 --> 01:07:21,252
Mitchell: The basic course
is several weeks long,
1483
01:07:21,335 --> 01:07:22,961
and there's two parts.
1484
01:07:23,043 --> 01:07:25,210
There's the bugs
and berries part of it
1485
01:07:25,293 --> 01:07:28,543
where, you know, they teach you
how to survive and evade.
1486
01:07:28,627 --> 01:07:30,961
And then there's
the second part of it,
1487
01:07:31,043 --> 01:07:33,919
which is the resistance
to interrogation lab.
1488
01:07:34,002 --> 01:07:36,210
And in that,
they essentially have
1489
01:07:36,293 --> 01:07:38,710
what I would call
an undergraduate course
1490
01:07:38,794 --> 01:07:41,335
for protecting secrets.
1491
01:07:41,418 --> 01:07:43,126
Our emotions
can marshal resources
1492
01:07:43,210 --> 01:07:45,002
that we never knew
that we had available.
1493
01:07:45,085 --> 01:07:46,627
But those
very same emotions,
1494
01:07:46,710 --> 01:07:48,961
either fear or anger
or anxiety,
1495
01:07:49,043 --> 01:07:51,335
can also cripple us
in survival situations.
1496
01:07:51,418 --> 01:07:53,835
Eyes on the ground!
1497
01:07:53,919 --> 01:07:56,460
Mitchell:
They expose you to a variety
1498
01:07:56,543 --> 01:07:58,627
of interrogation strategies
1499
01:07:58,710 --> 01:08:01,710
and teach you
how to resist.
1500
01:08:01,794 --> 01:08:04,460
It's a phenomenally
well-designed,
1501
01:08:04,543 --> 01:08:06,710
systematic,
professional program
1502
01:08:06,794 --> 01:08:09,002
from, from beginning to end.
1503
01:08:09,085 --> 01:08:12,335
And it was Jim Mitchell
who helped develop
that program.
1504
01:08:12,418 --> 01:08:15,877
He was actually known for being
a stickler for safety,
1505
01:08:15,961 --> 01:08:17,710
because when they're performing
as interrogators,
1506
01:08:17,794 --> 01:08:20,293
they were simulating torture.
1507
01:08:20,377 --> 01:08:23,252
What we tried
to teach people is
how to be resilient
1508
01:08:23,335 --> 01:08:26,043
in the face of stress,
of coercion, even torture,
1509
01:08:26,126 --> 01:08:30,085
so that you will not
create propaganda.
1510
01:08:30,168 --> 01:08:31,669
Gaudin:
I went to SERE School.
1511
01:08:31,752 --> 01:08:34,252
SERE School
is teaching people,
1512
01:08:34,335 --> 01:08:36,585
if you get captured,
how to stay alive.
1513
01:08:36,669 --> 01:08:39,126
It's teaching people
how to resist.
1514
01:08:39,210 --> 01:08:42,293
It's not eliciting information
from people.
1515
01:08:42,377 --> 01:08:45,585
Jones: These techniques
were used in a coercive way
1516
01:08:45,669 --> 01:08:48,002
to get someone to admit
to something they didn't do,
1517
01:08:48,085 --> 01:08:49,460
to get them
to say anything.
1518
01:08:49,543 --> 01:08:51,168
It was never devised
1519
01:08:51,252 --> 01:08:52,877
even by the worst regimes,
1520
01:08:52,961 --> 01:08:55,293
as a means to obtain
accurate intelligence.
1521
01:08:55,377 --> 01:08:57,335
And that was
Jim's experience.
1522
01:08:57,418 --> 01:08:59,919
He was observing
our US service members
1523
01:09:00,002 --> 01:09:02,126
being exposed to some
of these techniques
1524
01:09:02,210 --> 01:09:03,710
during training.
1525
01:09:03,794 --> 01:09:05,543
Gibney: So the purpose
of the school is not
1526
01:09:05,627 --> 01:09:07,168
to teach interrogation.
1527
01:09:07,252 --> 01:09:08,961
It was to teach people
how to resist interrogation.
1528
01:09:09,043 --> 01:09:11,085
-Is that right?
-Yeah, that's the purpose
of the...
1529
01:09:11,168 --> 01:09:13,002
That's the purpose
of the survival school,
1530
01:09:13,085 --> 01:09:14,877
is to teach people
how to resist interrogation.
1531
01:09:14,961 --> 01:09:17,460
But you know what, if you don't
understand interrogation,
1532
01:09:17,543 --> 01:09:19,543
you're not going to do
a very good job resisting it.
1533
01:09:19,627 --> 01:09:22,043
It isn't gonna happen.
1534
01:09:22,126 --> 01:09:24,710
Gibney:
The kind of interrogation
Mitchell was interested in
1535
01:09:24,794 --> 01:09:27,543
was rooted in another
psychological experiment
1536
01:09:27,627 --> 01:09:30,710
in which dogs were jolted
with electric shocks.
1537
01:09:30,794 --> 01:09:32,002
(dog whimpering)
1538
01:09:32,085 --> 01:09:33,961
The idea was to create,
in animals,
1539
01:09:34,043 --> 01:09:37,252
a feeling called
"learned helplessness."
1540
01:09:37,335 --> 01:09:39,543
To get humans
into that state,
1541
01:09:39,627 --> 01:09:41,460
interrogators would
subject prisoners
1542
01:09:41,543 --> 01:09:44,293
to SERE techniques
until they were helpless
1543
01:09:44,377 --> 01:09:46,460
and would do
or say anything.
1544
01:09:48,168 --> 01:09:51,710
Lawyer: Why did you think
Dr. Mitchell was qualified?
1545
01:09:51,794 --> 01:09:53,961
Because of his experience
with SERE
1546
01:09:54,043 --> 01:09:56,335
and because we needed
to do something different
1547
01:09:56,418 --> 01:09:57,752
than what had been
done before,
1548
01:09:57,835 --> 01:10:00,002
and he looked like
the right person to do it.
1549
01:10:00,085 --> 01:10:01,835
Lawyer: Why did he look like
the right person to do it?
1550
01:10:01,919 --> 01:10:04,377
Because he had
a tremendous expertise
1551
01:10:04,460 --> 01:10:06,585
and, uh...
1552
01:10:06,669 --> 01:10:09,919
he, uh, had
a good vision
1553
01:10:10,002 --> 01:10:11,752
for what needed
to be done.
1554
01:10:11,835 --> 01:10:13,168
Lawyer:
Okay.
1555
01:10:14,919 --> 01:10:17,669
What did he have
tremendous expertise in?
1556
01:10:18,252 --> 01:10:20,252
In SERE.
1557
01:10:20,335 --> 01:10:22,585
Lawyer: What was his,
uh, SERE experience,
1558
01:10:22,669 --> 01:10:23,835
to your knowledge in,
at that time?
1559
01:10:23,919 --> 01:10:25,961
He had spent
many years, uh,
1560
01:10:26,043 --> 01:10:28,669
with the Air Force,
uh, working on SERE.
1561
01:10:28,752 --> 01:10:30,126
Lawyer: Okay.
Did he have...
1562
01:10:30,210 --> 01:10:33,752
was there any other source
of his tremendous expertise?
1563
01:10:33,835 --> 01:10:37,210
Uh, the expertise I was
interested in was SERE.
1564
01:10:42,085 --> 01:10:43,710
Mitchell:
Once the CIA concluded
1565
01:10:43,794 --> 01:10:46,126
that he was
withholding information,
1566
01:10:46,210 --> 01:10:49,252
they pulled everybody back
in the early summer,
1567
01:10:49,335 --> 01:10:51,126
and it was clear to me
1568
01:10:51,210 --> 01:10:53,335
in the conversations that
were going around the table
1569
01:10:53,418 --> 01:10:55,335
that they had decided
they were going to use
1570
01:10:55,418 --> 01:10:58,043
physical coercion
against Abu Zubaydah.
1571
01:10:58,126 --> 01:10:59,293
And I thought...
1572
01:11:00,418 --> 01:11:01,877
well, if you're gonna use it,
1573
01:11:01,961 --> 01:11:03,210
then you ought
to use something--
1574
01:11:03,293 --> 01:11:04,585
not that you should use it
1575
01:11:04,669 --> 01:11:06,210
or even that
it was desirable
1576
01:11:06,293 --> 01:11:07,585
or even that it was legal.
1577
01:11:07,669 --> 01:11:09,043
But if you're going
to do that,
1578
01:11:09,126 --> 01:11:10,669
then you ought to consider
using the things
1579
01:11:10,752 --> 01:11:12,377
that they've been using
at the SERE schools
1580
01:11:12,460 --> 01:11:14,669
because they don't produce
a lot of lasting injuries.
1581
01:11:14,752 --> 01:11:17,418
They don't produce injuries.
1582
01:11:17,502 --> 01:11:20,961
So I gave them
a list of techniques
that they could consider.
1583
01:11:26,335 --> 01:11:29,126
Once they decided
they were going
to go forward with it,
1584
01:11:29,210 --> 01:11:30,794
they began to, I guess...
1585
01:11:30,877 --> 01:11:32,293
I mean, we've got
all of the documents
1586
01:11:32,377 --> 01:11:35,085
released from the CIA,
so it's perfectly...
1587
01:11:35,168 --> 01:11:36,210
We can trace it,
1588
01:11:36,293 --> 01:11:38,085
you don't have to depend
on my memory.
1589
01:11:38,168 --> 01:11:40,210
Interviewer: I'm just
trying to reconcile too,
1590
01:11:40,293 --> 01:11:42,418
because we interviewed
James Mitchell,
1591
01:11:42,502 --> 01:11:45,418
and he puts the timeline
more towards June, July
1592
01:11:45,502 --> 01:11:47,543
that he proposes
the EIT program.
1593
01:11:47,627 --> 01:11:49,126
So, I'm just trying
to figure out, I'm just trying--
1594
01:11:49,210 --> 01:11:51,627
Well, that's not--
Yeah, that's not correct.
1595
01:11:51,710 --> 01:11:54,669
I mean, uh,
by June and July,
1596
01:11:54,752 --> 01:11:56,961
I was heavy
into discussions with the,
1597
01:11:57,043 --> 01:11:59,377
with the, uh,
Justice Department.
1598
01:11:59,460 --> 01:12:01,877
All I can tell you was
1599
01:12:01,961 --> 01:12:04,669
I was first told
about this idea
1600
01:12:04,752 --> 01:12:06,585
of Enhanced
Interrogation Techniques
1601
01:12:06,669 --> 01:12:10,502
in... sometime
in early to mid April.
1602
01:12:12,126 --> 01:12:14,377
Gibney: When exactly were
the techniques invented?
1603
01:12:14,460 --> 01:12:17,085
The answer is the difference
between a wink and a nod
1604
01:12:17,168 --> 01:12:18,627
and a written plan.
1605
01:12:18,710 --> 01:12:20,794
In April and May,
Mitchell was experimenting
1606
01:12:20,877 --> 01:12:23,043
with SERE techniques
for which he had
1607
01:12:23,126 --> 01:12:25,293
no official legal approval.
1608
01:12:25,377 --> 01:12:27,002
To go further,
the techniques would have
1609
01:12:27,085 --> 01:12:29,543
to be codified
and approved in writing.
1610
01:12:29,627 --> 01:12:32,085
Rizzo: There was a team
that came up to my office
1611
01:12:32,168 --> 01:12:34,085
one afternoon,
you know, unannounced.
1612
01:12:34,168 --> 01:12:35,752
I mean,
I had no preview.
1613
01:12:35,835 --> 01:12:39,085
I was just told it was
a matter of some urgency
1614
01:12:39,168 --> 01:12:42,252
about an operational proposal.
That's all I knew.
1615
01:12:42,335 --> 01:12:44,043
And I was gobsmacked.
1616
01:12:45,502 --> 01:12:48,335
My very first reaction was,
you guys are crazy.
1617
01:12:48,418 --> 01:12:49,961
This is, we shouldn't
be doing this.
1618
01:12:50,043 --> 01:12:52,752
We've never done
this kind of thing before.
1619
01:12:52,835 --> 01:12:55,794
But I remember walking
around the CIA compound,
1620
01:12:55,877 --> 01:12:58,085
smoking a cigar,
trying to absorb
1621
01:12:58,168 --> 01:12:59,418
what I'd just been told.
1622
01:12:59,502 --> 01:13:02,002
And I started to play out
the scenarios in my head,
1623
01:13:02,085 --> 01:13:03,252
that, okay,
1624
01:13:03,335 --> 01:13:04,710
I go in to
the CIA director.
1625
01:13:04,794 --> 01:13:06,460
I say,
"We shouldn't do this.
1626
01:13:06,543 --> 01:13:07,961
"This is barbaric.
1627
01:13:08,043 --> 01:13:10,210
It may
or may not be legal."
1628
01:13:10,293 --> 01:13:14,085
And on the other hand,
I thought, well, here
are all the experts.
1629
01:13:14,168 --> 01:13:18,043
Saying that, that these kinds
of aggressive measures
1630
01:13:18,126 --> 01:13:19,710
are the only ones
1631
01:13:19,794 --> 01:13:21,627
that we believe
1632
01:13:21,710 --> 01:13:23,919
will cause Abu Zubaydah
1633
01:13:24,002 --> 01:13:25,293
to tell us completely
1634
01:13:25,377 --> 01:13:27,627
what he knows about
another terrorist attack.
1635
01:13:29,543 --> 01:13:31,460
And the idea
of the consequences
1636
01:13:31,543 --> 01:13:34,794
was something I couldn't
countenance on myself.
1637
01:13:34,877 --> 01:13:36,585
So that led
to a couple meetings
1638
01:13:36,669 --> 01:13:37,877
in George Tenet's office
1639
01:13:37,961 --> 01:13:40,335
with the senior
CIA leadership.
1640
01:13:42,168 --> 01:13:45,710
Lawyer: So did you propose
any other list
1641
01:13:45,794 --> 01:13:47,126
other than this list
1642
01:13:47,210 --> 01:13:49,710
-to Mr. Rizzo
or to the department?
-No.
1643
01:13:49,794 --> 01:13:51,877
Lawyer: So you never proposed
any other list
1644
01:13:51,961 --> 01:13:53,627
-other than this list
to Mr. Rizzo?
-No.
1645
01:13:53,710 --> 01:13:55,543
Lawyer: Did you propose
any other list
1646
01:13:55,627 --> 01:13:57,752
other than this list
to the Department of Justice?
1647
01:13:57,835 --> 01:13:58,961
No.
1648
01:14:02,293 --> 01:14:04,085
Mitchell: They began
to work back and forth
1649
01:14:04,168 --> 01:14:06,502
with the Justice Department,
but they needed approval
1650
01:14:06,585 --> 01:14:08,126
from Tenet to go forward.
1651
01:14:08,210 --> 01:14:10,961
And so I met
with Tenet, Rizzo.
1652
01:14:11,043 --> 01:14:13,335
Jose Rodriguez
took me up there,
1653
01:14:13,418 --> 01:14:15,585
and there were several
other people in the room.
1654
01:14:15,669 --> 01:14:19,418
He asked me to describe
the techniques,
and I described them.
1655
01:14:19,502 --> 01:14:22,085
Rizzo: They went through
each of these techniques.
1656
01:14:22,168 --> 01:14:24,168
Mitchell:
Attention grasps,
1657
01:14:24,252 --> 01:14:25,168
walling.
1658
01:14:25,252 --> 01:14:28,085
Sort of a shock and awe
technique.
1659
01:14:28,168 --> 01:14:32,377
Mitchell: Facial slaps,
a couple of stress positions...
1660
01:14:32,460 --> 01:14:34,752
Rizzo:
Extended sleep deprivation
1661
01:14:34,835 --> 01:14:36,043
for days.
1662
01:14:36,126 --> 01:14:37,627
And the most
controversial one was,
1663
01:14:37,710 --> 01:14:39,669
of course, waterboarding.
1664
01:14:39,752 --> 01:14:41,669
Rizzo: I'd never heard
of waterboarding.
1665
01:14:41,752 --> 01:14:43,377
I didn't even know
what the term meant.
1666
01:14:43,460 --> 01:14:46,252
Simulated drowning is the way
it was described to me.
1667
01:14:49,669 --> 01:14:53,043
And there was another one
that called for a mock burial.
1668
01:14:53,126 --> 01:14:55,794
It sounded something
out of Edgar Allan Poe.
1669
01:14:55,877 --> 01:14:57,043
I think it was.
1670
01:14:58,627 --> 01:15:00,835
Mitchell:
So Tenet gets up
to get a cigar.
1671
01:15:00,919 --> 01:15:02,126
He didn't smoke
in the building,
1672
01:15:02,210 --> 01:15:04,418
but he had a cigar
quite frequently.
1673
01:15:05,335 --> 01:15:06,627
He motions with his head
1674
01:15:06,710 --> 01:15:08,919
for Rizzo to walk
over there with him,
1675
01:15:09,002 --> 01:15:11,460
and he leans forward
and he says in a way
1676
01:15:11,543 --> 01:15:13,543
that I don't think
I'm supposed to hear.
1677
01:15:13,627 --> 01:15:16,752
"Make sure this is legal
before we go forward
with this."
1678
01:15:18,293 --> 01:15:19,919
Rizzo:
So that's when I decided
1679
01:15:20,002 --> 01:15:22,377
to seek
definitive legal guidance
1680
01:15:22,460 --> 01:15:23,877
from the Department
of Justice
1681
01:15:23,961 --> 01:15:25,627
as to whether any or all
1682
01:15:25,710 --> 01:15:27,794
of these techniques
were legal
1683
01:15:27,877 --> 01:15:30,502
and if any crossed
the line into torture.
1684
01:15:31,877 --> 01:15:33,585
Gibney: While the lawyers
in Washington worked
1685
01:15:33,669 --> 01:15:36,085
to make sure that
no one would be prosecuted
1686
01:15:36,168 --> 01:15:38,627
for using Mitchell's techniques
on Abu Zubaydah,
1687
01:15:38,710 --> 01:15:42,877
the prisoner himself
remained in Thailand, alone.
1688
01:15:57,168 --> 01:16:00,168
(birds chirping)
1689
01:16:20,460 --> 01:16:23,669
Soufan:
When all intelligence stopped
coming from Abu Zubaydah,
1690
01:16:23,752 --> 01:16:26,126
Mueller asked Tenet
1691
01:16:26,210 --> 01:16:28,961
why the intelligence stopped
from Abu Zubaydah,
1692
01:16:29,043 --> 01:16:30,627
what happened
with Abu Zubaydah.
1693
01:16:32,043 --> 01:16:34,210
And Tenet's response
to him was,
1694
01:16:34,293 --> 01:16:36,710
"Your guys
really messed him up.
1695
01:16:36,794 --> 01:16:39,710
So we're, we're trying
to fix him."
1696
01:16:41,085 --> 01:16:45,043
This was shocking to me,
because if you are trying
1697
01:16:45,126 --> 01:16:48,502
to get EITs approved,
1698
01:16:48,585 --> 01:16:50,835
even though you were
doing it before,
1699
01:16:50,919 --> 01:16:53,961
if you're trying
to get EITs approved...
1700
01:16:55,502 --> 01:16:58,794
because of the
ticking bomb scenario, right,
1701
01:16:58,877 --> 01:17:03,335
you don't leave a guy
with nobody interrogating him.
1702
01:17:03,418 --> 01:17:05,919
Mitchell: There's a difference
between a ticking time bomb
1703
01:17:06,002 --> 01:17:08,335
and a looming time bomb.
1704
01:17:08,418 --> 01:17:10,835
At some point,
we realized
1705
01:17:10,919 --> 01:17:13,085
that it was
a looming time bomb,
1706
01:17:13,168 --> 01:17:14,585
not a ticking time bomb.
1707
01:17:14,669 --> 01:17:17,210
Uh, and, um...
1708
01:17:20,210 --> 01:17:22,418
So that's-- Of course,
we didn't know it at that time.
1709
01:17:22,502 --> 01:17:25,085
You'd have to ask the CIA
why they had that long.
1710
01:17:25,168 --> 01:17:26,835
I didn't, you know,
I wasn't in charge.
1711
01:17:26,919 --> 01:17:29,752
I didn't do it.
I'm not making light of it.
It was a long time.
1712
01:17:29,835 --> 01:17:31,293
Lawyer 2: Do you know
whether Abu Zubaydah
1713
01:17:31,377 --> 01:17:34,210
was asked any questions
during the isolation phase?
1714
01:17:35,126 --> 01:17:36,377
Did I know?
1715
01:17:36,460 --> 01:17:38,210
-Lawyer 2: Do you know now?
-Do I know now?
1716
01:17:38,293 --> 01:17:39,794
Uh, I've come--
1717
01:17:39,877 --> 01:17:42,002
yeah, I've come to learn that
there was a period of time
1718
01:17:42,085 --> 01:17:43,835
where he was
not asked questions.
1719
01:17:43,919 --> 01:17:46,502
Lawyer 2: And at the time,
did you know that?
1720
01:17:46,585 --> 01:17:48,710
At, at the very beginning,
1721
01:17:48,794 --> 01:17:51,085
as the techniques
were being described to me?
1722
01:17:51,168 --> 01:17:54,460
-At that point in time?
-Lawyer 2: At the time
when you were seeking
1723
01:17:54,543 --> 01:17:57,335
the Department
of Justice's opinion
1724
01:17:57,418 --> 01:17:58,669
on the techniques?
1725
01:17:58,752 --> 01:18:00,418
No, I don't believe so.
1726
01:18:11,460 --> 01:18:15,377
Jones: The CIA is tasked
with stopping the next attack.
1727
01:18:15,460 --> 01:18:18,085
Abu Zubaydah has been
providing intelligence
1728
01:18:18,168 --> 01:18:19,627
up until this point.
1729
01:18:19,710 --> 01:18:21,126
And yet they leave him,
1730
01:18:21,210 --> 01:18:23,752
the only
high-value detainee,
1731
01:18:23,835 --> 01:18:25,835
alone without any contact.
1732
01:18:27,585 --> 01:18:31,585
During that period,
there are analysts still
sending in requirements.
1733
01:18:31,669 --> 01:18:32,919
One analyst says,
1734
01:18:33,002 --> 01:18:35,002
"I want to learn more
about an individual
1735
01:18:35,085 --> 01:18:36,961
"who is in
Abu Zubaydah's address book.
1736
01:18:37,043 --> 01:18:39,835
Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti."
1737
01:18:39,919 --> 01:18:41,502
Of course,
nobody is around
1738
01:18:41,585 --> 01:18:43,335
to ask about
Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti.
1739
01:18:43,418 --> 01:18:44,335
(helicopter blades whirring)
1740
01:18:44,418 --> 01:18:46,168
(indistinct radio conversation)
1741
01:18:46,252 --> 01:18:47,794
Nearly a decade later,
1742
01:18:47,877 --> 01:18:50,502
we finally obtained
Bin Laden's location,
1743
01:18:50,585 --> 01:18:54,168
and it's through a man
named Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti.
1744
01:18:54,252 --> 01:18:56,002
So this lost opportunity
1745
01:18:56,085 --> 01:18:59,794
to ask Abu Zubaydah
in July of 2002,
1746
01:18:59,877 --> 01:19:02,710
when he's providing information
about a man in his address book
1747
01:19:02,794 --> 01:19:05,710
who is Osama Bin Laden's
personal assistant
1748
01:19:05,794 --> 01:19:08,168
is a remarkable failure.
1749
01:19:08,252 --> 01:19:11,669
Abu Zubaydah's isolation
was not about Abu Zubaydah.
1750
01:19:11,752 --> 01:19:15,043
It was about the politics
and legal opinions, right?
1751
01:19:15,126 --> 01:19:17,418
This was the idea
that we need to go hard.
1752
01:19:17,502 --> 01:19:20,043
We want it on paper that
you will not prosecute us
1753
01:19:20,126 --> 01:19:21,543
for engaging in torture.
1754
01:19:26,377 --> 01:19:28,794
From the very beginning
in late 2001,
1755
01:19:28,877 --> 01:19:30,460
there were people
in the Agency,
1756
01:19:30,543 --> 01:19:32,168
in the
Counterterrorism Division,
1757
01:19:32,252 --> 01:19:35,627
in their legal department
discussing torture.
1758
01:19:35,710 --> 01:19:37,085
And they're using
the word "torture."
1759
01:19:37,168 --> 01:19:39,126
One email says
in the subject line,
1760
01:19:39,210 --> 01:19:40,335
"Torture update"
1761
01:19:40,418 --> 01:19:42,460
And the lawyers,
not the operators,
1762
01:19:42,543 --> 01:19:44,168
not people who are
out in the field,
1763
01:19:44,252 --> 01:19:45,585
lawyers are discussing
1764
01:19:45,669 --> 01:19:48,210
how the CIA
can engage in torture
1765
01:19:48,293 --> 01:19:50,168
without being prosecuted
later on.
1766
01:19:50,252 --> 01:19:52,335
And in fact, they reach out
to the Department of Justice
1767
01:19:52,418 --> 01:19:55,126
to try to obtain
a declination of prosecution,
1768
01:19:55,210 --> 01:19:56,835
which says, "If we engage
in torture,
1769
01:19:56,919 --> 01:19:59,002
will you agree
not to prosecute us?"
1770
01:20:00,377 --> 01:20:03,335
Rizzo:
After that initial
briefing by our people,
1771
01:20:03,418 --> 01:20:06,794
I convened a meeting
at the White House.
1772
01:20:06,877 --> 01:20:10,502
The initial reaction,
not just of the
Justice Department lawyers,
1773
01:20:10,585 --> 01:20:11,919
but the White House counsel,
1774
01:20:12,002 --> 01:20:13,961
and the National Security
Council legal advisors
1775
01:20:14,043 --> 01:20:17,335
was what
my initial reaction was.
1776
01:20:17,418 --> 01:20:19,418
What, what is this stuff,
I mean, you know,
1777
01:20:19,502 --> 01:20:21,085
it was just
so beyond anything
1778
01:20:21,168 --> 01:20:23,710
any of us could have
even contemplated.
1779
01:20:25,126 --> 01:20:27,543
None of the lawyers
assembled there said,
1780
01:20:27,627 --> 01:20:28,877
"You guys are crazy.
1781
01:20:28,961 --> 01:20:31,043
"This administration
is never going
1782
01:20:31,126 --> 01:20:32,710
"to do something
like that.
1783
01:20:32,794 --> 01:20:34,877
"This is immoral,
it is illegal.
1784
01:20:34,961 --> 01:20:36,043
End of story."
1785
01:20:36,126 --> 01:20:37,377
None of them did that.
1786
01:20:37,460 --> 01:20:38,502
There's two kinds of lawyers.
1787
01:20:38,585 --> 01:20:40,168
There's one
that comes in and says,
1788
01:20:40,252 --> 01:20:42,543
"What do you want to do, boss?
I'll tell you if it's legal."
1789
01:20:42,627 --> 01:20:44,460
And then there's the other one
that comes in and says,
1790
01:20:44,543 --> 01:20:46,335
"What do you want to do, boss?
I'll make it legal."
1791
01:20:46,418 --> 01:20:49,085
Well, I found out
there were six of those,
1792
01:20:49,168 --> 01:20:50,627
at least six of those
1793
01:20:50,710 --> 01:20:53,252
second type
in the administration.
1794
01:20:53,335 --> 01:20:57,377
Starts with White House
Counsel Alberto Gonzales.
1795
01:20:57,460 --> 01:21:00,002
But the real Machiavelli
in the whole thing,
1796
01:21:00,085 --> 01:21:01,919
and that's an insult
to Machiavelli,
1797
01:21:02,002 --> 01:21:04,335
was David Addington,
1798
01:21:04,418 --> 01:21:06,335
Dick Cheney's go-to man
1799
01:21:06,418 --> 01:21:09,418
for everything
of a legal nature.
1800
01:21:09,502 --> 01:21:12,460
We used to call him when he was
in the Pentagon, "Weird David."
1801
01:21:12,543 --> 01:21:14,168
We thought no one
would listen to David.
1802
01:21:14,252 --> 01:21:15,919
He's so crazy.
1803
01:21:16,002 --> 01:21:17,835
David was crafting
1804
01:21:17,919 --> 01:21:22,335
the, the whole business
of cover for torture
1805
01:21:22,418 --> 01:21:24,293
from the
Vice President's office,
1806
01:21:24,377 --> 01:21:27,002
using John Yoo
using Jay Bybee.
1807
01:21:27,085 --> 01:21:29,460
And the lawyers
are omnipresent.
1808
01:21:29,543 --> 01:21:33,043
If you get a bunch of them
whose whole philosophy is,
1809
01:21:33,126 --> 01:21:35,002
"Tell me what you want
to do, Mr. President,
1810
01:21:35,085 --> 01:21:37,794
and I'll make it legal,"
they mean it.
1811
01:21:37,877 --> 01:21:39,710
Jones: At the very end,
end of July,
1812
01:21:39,794 --> 01:21:41,293
Condoleezza Rice
is pushing back.
1813
01:21:41,377 --> 01:21:43,669
"How can you tell me
waterboarding,
1814
01:21:43,752 --> 01:21:44,961
"sleep deprivation,
1815
01:21:45,043 --> 01:21:46,293
"putting someone
in a coffin-shaped box,
1816
01:21:46,377 --> 01:21:47,961
"how can you tell me
this won't result
1817
01:21:48,043 --> 01:21:49,252
"in lasting harm?
1818
01:21:49,335 --> 01:21:51,585
How could you
possibly say that?"
1819
01:21:51,669 --> 01:21:55,252
So Mitchell and company
go back to the SERE Program
1820
01:21:55,335 --> 01:21:56,710
and they say,
"Has there ever been
1821
01:21:56,794 --> 01:21:59,126
any lasting harm
with these techniques?"
1822
01:21:59,210 --> 01:22:01,335
And the SERE Program says,
"Hold on.
1823
01:22:01,418 --> 01:22:03,794
"First of all,
this is a training scenario.
1824
01:22:03,877 --> 01:22:06,335
"We expose these members
very briefly
1825
01:22:06,418 --> 01:22:08,126
"to techniques used
by our enemies
1826
01:22:08,210 --> 01:22:09,418
"that don't believe
in Geneva.
1827
01:22:09,502 --> 01:22:11,085
"And second of all,
are you thinking
1828
01:22:11,168 --> 01:22:13,043
"about using this
for intelligence collection?
1829
01:22:13,126 --> 01:22:15,877
Because this doesn't--
this isn't for that."
1830
01:22:15,961 --> 01:22:17,210
Woman:
Raise your right hand.
1831
01:22:17,293 --> 01:22:19,710
Gibney: For some reason,
the CIA never consulted
1832
01:22:19,794 --> 01:22:20,961
its own experts.
1833
01:22:21,043 --> 01:22:22,460
One of them
was Charles Morgan,
1834
01:22:22,543 --> 01:22:23,919
a psychiatrist
who had studied
1835
01:22:24,002 --> 01:22:25,585
the effects of
the SERE Program
1836
01:22:25,669 --> 01:22:28,002
and knew that
some soldiers had died
1837
01:22:28,085 --> 01:22:30,710
and many others
suffered from PTSD.
1838
01:22:30,794 --> 01:22:33,043
With respect to stress,
it was well known
1839
01:22:33,126 --> 01:22:35,126
with the data
we had presented
1840
01:22:35,210 --> 01:22:37,168
and were publishing
in the science community
1841
01:22:37,252 --> 01:22:40,085
that the level of stress
in the training program
1842
01:22:40,168 --> 01:22:43,085
was creating hormone changes
and psychological changes
1843
01:22:43,168 --> 01:22:45,252
greater than we'd
ever measured in humans,
1844
01:22:45,335 --> 01:22:46,961
in human experiments
1845
01:22:47,043 --> 01:22:49,418
and that that stress
was capable
1846
01:22:49,502 --> 01:22:51,543
of being traumatic
1847
01:22:51,627 --> 01:22:54,627
in the training program,
that it had that capacity.
1848
01:22:54,710 --> 01:22:56,085
So, I would have said that.
1849
01:22:56,168 --> 01:22:57,752
The second point
would have been
1850
01:22:57,835 --> 01:22:59,252
that, um...
1851
01:22:59,335 --> 01:23:02,085
as a way of using techniques
to get information,
1852
01:23:02,168 --> 01:23:04,585
it was probably
a very dumb idea.
1853
01:23:04,669 --> 01:23:06,835
And I would
say that because
1854
01:23:06,919 --> 01:23:08,710
the impact of stress
on human cognition
1855
01:23:08,794 --> 01:23:10,377
degrades
cognitive functioning
1856
01:23:10,460 --> 01:23:12,543
and human memory.
1857
01:23:12,627 --> 01:23:14,710
Rapport-building techniques
is, is the way to go
1858
01:23:14,794 --> 01:23:17,168
if you want
to get accurate data.
1859
01:23:17,252 --> 01:23:19,752
That never gets reported
back to Rice.
1860
01:23:21,627 --> 01:23:23,210
Rizzo:
A month or two later,
1861
01:23:23,293 --> 01:23:25,835
we received the final
written opinion,
1862
01:23:25,919 --> 01:23:28,585
the first of many
over the years,
1863
01:23:28,669 --> 01:23:31,126
now euphemistically
referred to
1864
01:23:31,210 --> 01:23:33,502
as the torture memos.
1865
01:23:33,585 --> 01:23:35,085
Gibney:
The first memo was predicated
1866
01:23:35,168 --> 01:23:37,585
on facts presented
by the CIA.
1867
01:23:37,669 --> 01:23:40,961
But it also stated that
if those facts were to change,
1868
01:23:41,043 --> 01:23:43,627
the legal basis for torture
might disappear.
1869
01:23:43,710 --> 01:23:47,335
And what if the facts
weren't facts at all?
1870
01:23:47,418 --> 01:23:50,085
As support for EITs,
the CIA presented
1871
01:23:50,168 --> 01:23:53,002
a psychological assessment
of Abu Zubaydah
1872
01:23:53,085 --> 01:23:55,252
as a rationale
for why the agency
1873
01:23:55,335 --> 01:23:58,502
would have to subject him
to something different.
1874
01:23:58,585 --> 01:24:01,252
Here, take a look at this,
or-or scan through it quickly.
1875
01:24:01,335 --> 01:24:04,085
-Right.
-And talk about the
psychological assessment
1876
01:24:04,168 --> 01:24:05,585
of how important this was
1877
01:24:05,669 --> 01:24:07,794
in terms of setting up
this whole
1878
01:24:07,877 --> 01:24:10,043
enhanced interrogation program.
1879
01:24:11,126 --> 01:24:12,460
Yeah.
1880
01:24:12,543 --> 01:24:13,835
Yeah, this is it.
1881
01:24:13,919 --> 01:24:15,502
This is the document.
1882
01:24:16,752 --> 01:24:18,794
It's really overly generous
1883
01:24:18,877 --> 01:24:21,210
to call this
a psychological assessment.
1884
01:24:21,293 --> 01:24:23,627
That's the label
they give to it.
1885
01:24:23,710 --> 01:24:26,293
Um, but, um,
1886
01:24:26,377 --> 01:24:28,961
what it is,
an-an-and to this day,
1887
01:24:29,043 --> 01:24:32,335
so far as I know,
we don't know who wrote it.
1888
01:24:32,418 --> 01:24:35,961
What we know is that
it was faxed to John Yoo,
1889
01:24:36,043 --> 01:24:38,335
who is a lawyer in the Office
of Legal Counsel
1890
01:24:38,418 --> 01:24:41,418
on the 24th of July
of 2002,
1891
01:24:41,502 --> 01:24:45,252
when Yoo was drafting
the torture memo.
1892
01:24:45,335 --> 01:24:47,585
In the memo that approves
1893
01:24:47,669 --> 01:24:51,002
the enhanced interrogation
of Abu Zubaydah,
1894
01:24:51,085 --> 01:24:54,377
John Yoo recognizes
that these techniques
1895
01:24:54,460 --> 01:24:57,502
could have lasting
destructive effect
1896
01:24:57,585 --> 01:24:58,877
on Abu Zubaydah.
1897
01:24:58,961 --> 01:25:01,252
And for that reason,
it is important, he says,
1898
01:25:01,335 --> 01:25:04,168
to know something
about his background
1899
01:25:04,252 --> 01:25:06,085
and psychological profile.
1900
01:25:06,168 --> 01:25:08,585
So lo and behold,
this document appears,
1901
01:25:08,669 --> 01:25:12,293
which says, here's--
here's who he is.
1902
01:25:15,043 --> 01:25:16,669
Soufan: They made
their legal position
1903
01:25:16,752 --> 01:25:19,794
based on facts presented
to them by the CIA.
1904
01:25:20,877 --> 01:25:22,710
And their facts are what?
1905
01:25:22,794 --> 01:25:25,669
That Abu Zubaydah
was not cooperating.
1906
01:25:25,752 --> 01:25:27,377
Which is a lie.
He was.
1907
01:25:27,460 --> 01:25:30,126
There was a discussion
about the CIA representation
1908
01:25:30,210 --> 01:25:32,543
that Abu Zubaydah
is resisting interrogation
1909
01:25:32,627 --> 01:25:34,418
and that he's
a trained resister.
1910
01:25:34,502 --> 01:25:36,585
But there's no evidence
of that whatsoever.
1911
01:25:36,669 --> 01:25:38,418
In fact, all of
the documentary evidence
1912
01:25:38,502 --> 01:25:41,252
suggests that Abu Zubaydah
always cooperated.
1913
01:25:41,335 --> 01:25:43,293
Joe Margulies: It claims,
"Abu Zubaydah is currently
1914
01:25:43,377 --> 01:25:45,961
the third or fourth man
in Al-Qaeda." That's wrong.
1915
01:25:46,043 --> 01:25:47,710
He wasn't even
a member of Al-Qaeda,
1916
01:25:47,794 --> 01:25:48,752
and we knew that.
1917
01:25:48,835 --> 01:25:50,585
There was only one person
1918
01:25:50,669 --> 01:25:52,168
who ever identified
Abu Zubaydah
1919
01:25:52,252 --> 01:25:53,835
as number three
or four in Al-Qaeda.
1920
01:25:53,919 --> 01:25:56,168
And we know this
because CTC legal,
1921
01:25:56,252 --> 01:25:57,418
the top of CTC legal,
1922
01:25:57,502 --> 01:25:59,043
the people who's providing
this information
1923
01:25:59,126 --> 01:26:00,335
to the Department of Justice,
1924
01:26:00,418 --> 01:26:01,460
discussed the fact
1925
01:26:01,543 --> 01:26:03,126
that there was one person
who said this
1926
01:26:03,210 --> 01:26:04,710
and the person
retracted that
1927
01:26:04,794 --> 01:26:07,085
in June or July of 2002,
1928
01:26:07,168 --> 01:26:09,543
prior to
the DOJ legal opinion.
1929
01:26:09,627 --> 01:26:11,168
Yet they keep it in there.
1930
01:26:11,252 --> 01:26:13,460
"A planner of
the September 11 hijackings."
1931
01:26:13,543 --> 01:26:14,502
That's wrong.
1932
01:26:14,585 --> 01:26:16,126
"Alleged to have written
Al-Qaeda's manual
1933
01:26:16,210 --> 01:26:17,877
on resistance techniques."
That's wrong.
1934
01:26:17,961 --> 01:26:19,794
"Involved in every major
Al-Qaeda
1935
01:26:19,877 --> 01:26:21,627
terrorist operation."
That's wrong.
1936
01:26:21,710 --> 01:26:23,085
"Served as
the operational planner
1937
01:26:23,168 --> 01:26:25,085
for the Millennium plot."
That's wrong.
1938
01:26:25,168 --> 01:26:26,627
"Directed the startup
1939
01:26:26,710 --> 01:26:29,168
of a Bin Laden cell
in Jordan."
1940
01:26:29,252 --> 01:26:31,126
No.
"Managed a network
1941
01:26:31,210 --> 01:26:32,794
of training camps
for Al-Qaeda."
1942
01:26:32,877 --> 01:26:34,710
No. It's-- there's nothing.
1943
01:26:36,669 --> 01:26:39,043
Gibney:
The CIA claims
presented as facts
1944
01:26:39,126 --> 01:26:40,669
resulted in
official legal approval
1945
01:26:40,752 --> 01:26:44,335
for the new Enhanced
Interrogation Techniques.
1946
01:26:44,418 --> 01:26:47,669
The only question was
who would decide in the field
1947
01:26:47,752 --> 01:26:49,919
when to throw the prisoner
against the wall
1948
01:26:50,002 --> 01:26:52,085
and when to waterboard him.
1949
01:26:55,418 --> 01:26:56,627
Mitchell:
At some point,
1950
01:26:56,710 --> 01:26:59,627
Jose Rodriguez came up
to me and said,
1951
01:26:59,710 --> 01:27:02,085
"Will you do
these interrogations?"
1952
01:27:02,168 --> 01:27:04,835
And I said... "No."
1953
01:27:04,919 --> 01:27:07,961
And then one
of his senior guys
1954
01:27:08,043 --> 01:27:09,543
leaned into me and said,
1955
01:27:09,627 --> 01:27:11,335
"You've watched him now
for months.
1956
01:27:11,418 --> 01:27:12,961
"You've seen
all the intelligence.
1957
01:27:13,043 --> 01:27:14,460
"You know what
we're up against.
1958
01:27:14,543 --> 01:27:15,919
"And if you're not
willing to help,
1959
01:27:16,002 --> 01:27:17,835
how can we ask
somebody else to?"
1960
01:27:20,043 --> 01:27:22,293
I wasn't willing
to stand by.
1961
01:27:22,377 --> 01:27:25,794
I knew that I would feel
much worse about myself
1962
01:27:25,877 --> 01:27:29,418
if there had been
a big smoking hole
in Los Angeles
1963
01:27:29,502 --> 01:27:31,085
that had killed
a bunch of people
1964
01:27:31,168 --> 01:27:33,418
and I had walked away
from something
1965
01:27:33,502 --> 01:27:36,043
that the Justice Department
said was legal,
1966
01:27:36,126 --> 01:27:39,085
that I was unwilling
to help them with.
1967
01:27:39,168 --> 01:27:41,835
I said, "I will do it,
but I need help
1968
01:27:41,919 --> 01:27:44,919
because I don't know
everything I need to know."
1969
01:27:45,002 --> 01:27:46,627
And they had worked
with Doc Jessen,
1970
01:27:46,710 --> 01:27:48,252
so they agreed
to bring him in.
1971
01:27:48,335 --> 01:27:50,210
He had been through
several interrogation courses.
1972
01:27:50,293 --> 01:27:52,210
He's brilliant
and much more familiar
1973
01:27:52,293 --> 01:27:53,794
with these things
than I was.
1974
01:27:55,252 --> 01:27:56,877
I don't know exactly
how it happened,
1975
01:27:56,961 --> 01:28:00,002
but Jose Rodriguez...
What?
1976
01:28:00,085 --> 01:28:01,335
Is that okay?
1977
01:28:01,418 --> 01:28:04,168
Alright.
Jose Rodriguez, uh...
1978
01:28:05,585 --> 01:28:07,961
who already had
a relationship with Jim,
1979
01:28:08,502 --> 01:28:09,460
uh...
1980
01:28:10,919 --> 01:28:14,168
they had a discussion
about the tactics,
1981
01:28:14,252 --> 01:28:17,168
uh, that are used
at the SERE School to train
1982
01:28:18,085 --> 01:28:19,335
not just the standard folks
1983
01:28:19,418 --> 01:28:23,085
but the special operators
in particular.
1984
01:28:23,168 --> 01:28:26,460
Jose told me that
he asked Jim what he needed,
1985
01:28:26,543 --> 01:28:29,961
and Jim said that
he would like me to help him.
1986
01:28:30,043 --> 01:28:31,919
Lawyer: So what led you
to conclude that they were
1987
01:28:32,002 --> 01:28:33,752
quote,
"eminently qualified"?
1988
01:28:33,835 --> 01:28:35,335
I just took it for granted
that they knew
1989
01:28:35,418 --> 01:28:36,710
what they were doing.
1990
01:28:39,210 --> 01:28:42,126
Kleinman:
Jim Mitchell and Bruce Jessen
helped develop the best
1991
01:28:42,210 --> 01:28:43,794
Resistance
to Interrogation program
1992
01:28:43,877 --> 01:28:45,210
in the world, bar none.
1993
01:28:45,293 --> 01:28:46,835
But here's what
should have happened.
1994
01:28:46,919 --> 01:28:49,543
After their presentation,
George Tenet
should have said,
1995
01:28:49,627 --> 01:28:50,669
"Gentlemen,
1996
01:28:50,752 --> 01:28:52,043
"I really appreciate
you coming by,
1997
01:28:52,126 --> 01:28:53,710
"but just a few questions
before you leave.
1998
01:28:53,794 --> 01:28:56,168
"I didn't see here--
Tell me about the,
1999
01:28:56,252 --> 01:28:57,669
"the real-world interrogations
2000
01:28:57,752 --> 01:28:59,835
"that you've
actually conducted?
2001
01:28:59,919 --> 01:29:01,460
"Oh. None. Okay.
2002
01:29:01,543 --> 01:29:04,460
"Well, how about
the real-world interrogations
2003
01:29:04,543 --> 01:29:06,543
"that you've observed?
2004
01:29:06,627 --> 01:29:08,794
"Oh, well,
maybe a couple? Okay.
2005
01:29:08,877 --> 01:29:10,418
"Um, alright. Well,
2006
01:29:10,502 --> 01:29:13,210
"but you've worked in the
intelligence world before? No.
2007
01:29:13,293 --> 01:29:15,085
"But you do have
a deep understanding of--
2008
01:29:15,168 --> 01:29:16,502
"No, not that either.
2009
01:29:17,752 --> 01:29:19,043
"All right, well,
so you've actually,
2010
01:29:19,126 --> 01:29:20,919
"your experience is
all about teaching resistance,
2011
01:29:21,002 --> 01:29:23,377
"which was actually--
we were mimicking the
2012
01:29:23,460 --> 01:29:24,835
"what we call torture
2013
01:29:24,919 --> 01:29:27,585
"by countries that weren't
signatory to Geneva Convention.
2014
01:29:27,669 --> 01:29:29,794
"And the doctrine was,
if I recall,
2015
01:29:29,877 --> 01:29:31,043
"that that...
2016
01:29:31,126 --> 01:29:34,085
"is not useful
for anything but propaganda
2017
01:29:34,168 --> 01:29:36,877
"and false confessions,
which,
2018
01:29:36,961 --> 01:29:38,794
"I'm the, I'm the director
of Central Intelligence,
2019
01:29:38,877 --> 01:29:40,377
"I deal with information.
That'd be on the other end
2020
01:29:40,460 --> 01:29:42,335
"of the spectrum
from intelligence.
2021
01:29:42,418 --> 01:29:44,460
"So why is it that
we could switch...
2022
01:29:44,543 --> 01:29:46,502
"We really can't.
Well, gentlemen,
2023
01:29:46,585 --> 01:29:49,210
"you are the best at teaching
resistance to interrogation.
2024
01:29:49,293 --> 01:29:51,252
"We need to hire you
to train everybody
2025
01:29:51,335 --> 01:29:52,835
"in this room
that ever goes overseas.
2026
01:29:52,919 --> 01:29:56,377
"But when it comes
to interrogation,
thank you for your time."
2027
01:29:56,460 --> 01:29:59,418
Gibney: There's
that word again: time.
2028
01:29:59,502 --> 01:30:01,710
As it turned out,
the CIA was so grateful
2029
01:30:01,794 --> 01:30:03,543
for Mitchell
and Jessen's time
2030
01:30:03,627 --> 01:30:05,835
that the agency paid
the psychologists
2031
01:30:05,919 --> 01:30:07,335
$1,800 a day
2032
01:30:07,418 --> 01:30:10,335
to go back to Thailand
to interrogate Abu Zubaydah.
2033
01:30:10,418 --> 01:30:12,710
While they weren't
interrogators,
2034
01:30:12,794 --> 01:30:15,126
they were armed
with one important weapon,
2035
01:30:15,210 --> 01:30:16,961
a decision from
the Department of Justice
2036
01:30:17,043 --> 01:30:19,502
that would allow them
to torture Abu Zubaydah
2037
01:30:19,585 --> 01:30:23,502
within seconds of death
without fear of prosecution.
2038
01:30:23,585 --> 01:30:25,543
Rizzo:
A fateful decision was made
2039
01:30:25,627 --> 01:30:27,377
at the beginning
of his interrogation
2040
01:30:27,460 --> 01:30:29,168
to videotape the sessions.
2041
01:30:29,252 --> 01:30:32,669
We were just trying to ponder
every worst-case scenario.
2042
01:30:32,752 --> 01:30:35,669
That he dies
while in CIA custody.
2043
01:30:35,752 --> 01:30:37,043
The possibility would exist
2044
01:30:37,126 --> 01:30:39,043
that somewhere
somehow someone
2045
01:30:39,126 --> 01:30:42,210
would accuse CIA
of purposely killing him.
2046
01:30:48,794 --> 01:30:52,252
Jones:
They begin at 11:50 a.m.
on August 4th.
2047
01:30:52,335 --> 01:30:54,377
Abu Zubaydah is hooded.
2048
01:30:54,460 --> 01:30:57,168
A coffin-shaped box
is brought into the room.
2049
01:30:57,252 --> 01:31:00,293
Abu Zubaydah is unhooded
and shown the box...
2050
01:31:00,377 --> 01:31:02,377
the insinuation being,
of course,
2051
01:31:02,460 --> 01:31:05,877
that he could be killed
and buried there.
2052
01:31:05,961 --> 01:31:09,377
Within seven hours,
around six p.m. that night,
2053
01:31:09,460 --> 01:31:11,710
Abu Zubaydah is waterboarded
for the first time.
2054
01:31:13,377 --> 01:31:15,252
He's in isolation
for 47 days.
2055
01:31:15,335 --> 01:31:17,210
Within six hours,
he's waterboarded,
2056
01:31:17,293 --> 01:31:20,418
and he has these convulsions
and he vomits.
2057
01:31:22,585 --> 01:31:24,126
And for 17 days,
2058
01:31:24,210 --> 01:31:26,460
Abu Zubaydah
is tortured nonstop.
2059
01:31:32,168 --> 01:31:34,710
Lawyer: I was reading
through the cables
2060
01:31:34,794 --> 01:31:38,293
from Abu Zubaydah's
interrogation.
2061
01:31:38,377 --> 01:31:39,919
Do remember those cables?
2062
01:31:41,210 --> 01:31:42,710
Uh, it's been 15 years.
2063
01:31:42,794 --> 01:31:44,585
Lawyer: Okay, let's,
let's show them to you.
2064
01:31:45,877 --> 01:31:47,627
This is a cable regarding
2065
01:31:47,710 --> 01:31:50,168
the interrogation
of Abu Zubaydah, correct?
2066
01:31:50,252 --> 01:31:51,210
Yes.
2067
01:31:52,335 --> 01:31:54,252
Lawyer:
And it goes through a number
2068
01:31:54,335 --> 01:31:56,585
of Enhanced
Interrogation Techniques,
right?
2069
01:31:56,669 --> 01:31:58,210
-Rodriguez: Yes.
-Lawyer: It describes walling
2070
01:31:58,293 --> 01:32:02,293
and, um, and it describes
the confinement box.
2071
01:32:02,377 --> 01:32:06,460
And in paragraph nine,
it says,
2072
01:32:06,543 --> 01:32:09,168
the "subject has not provided
any new threat
2073
01:32:09,252 --> 01:32:11,335
or elaborated on
any old threat information."
2074
01:32:11,418 --> 01:32:13,043
-Do you see that?
-Yes.
2075
01:32:13,126 --> 01:32:15,752
Lawyer: Um, when you read
that kind of thing,
2076
01:32:15,835 --> 01:32:17,752
was there any sense
2077
01:32:17,835 --> 01:32:20,835
that the Enhanced
Interrogation Techniques
2078
01:32:20,919 --> 01:32:22,335
were not being effective?
2079
01:32:22,418 --> 01:32:24,377
-At that point.
-Lawyer: At that point what?
2080
01:32:24,460 --> 01:32:26,043
At that point,
they were not being effective.
2081
01:32:26,126 --> 01:32:27,669
-Eventually, they were.
-Lawyer: Okay.
2082
01:32:27,752 --> 01:32:30,585
In what regard
did you then dial it back?
2083
01:32:30,669 --> 01:32:32,502
Because I'm reading
these cables
2084
01:32:32,585 --> 01:32:33,961
and it looks like
for 17 days,
2085
01:32:34,043 --> 01:32:37,377
he's being waterboarded
and he's put in confined,
2086
01:32:37,460 --> 01:32:39,252
in-in a confinement box
2087
01:32:39,335 --> 01:32:41,835
and put in stress positions
and walled.
2088
01:32:41,919 --> 01:32:44,377
-Am I wrong about that?
-Man: Objection.
2089
01:32:46,252 --> 01:32:49,168
Jones: He spent 11 days
in the coffin-shaped box
2090
01:32:49,252 --> 01:32:51,210
several days
in a much smaller box.
2091
01:32:51,293 --> 01:32:54,669
If he wasn't in the smaller box
or in the coffin-shaped box,
2092
01:32:54,752 --> 01:32:58,126
he was on the waterboard
with a towel over his face
2093
01:32:58,210 --> 01:33:00,126
or in
a sleep deprivation position,
2094
01:33:00,210 --> 01:33:02,293
essentially hanging
from the cell.
2095
01:33:04,877 --> 01:33:06,460
Margulies: He was put
in these boxes,
2096
01:33:06,543 --> 01:33:08,126
not much wider
than his shoulders
2097
01:33:08,210 --> 01:33:09,460
and not much higher
than him.
2098
01:33:09,543 --> 01:33:12,710
And he was just left there,
260-some hours
2099
01:33:12,794 --> 01:33:15,377
to urinate
and defecate on himself.
2100
01:33:15,460 --> 01:33:18,210
That's not in the cables,
2101
01:33:18,293 --> 01:33:20,043
but his drawings capture that.
2102
01:33:40,627 --> 01:33:42,835
Mitchell:
Most people misunderstand
2103
01:33:42,919 --> 01:33:43,961
or they don't understand
2104
01:33:44,043 --> 01:33:46,418
or they haven't bothered
to understand
2105
01:33:46,502 --> 01:33:48,710
the way that EITs were used.
2106
01:33:48,794 --> 01:33:51,543
EITs were used
to shape cooperation.
2107
01:33:51,627 --> 01:33:54,752
So what you did is
you put them in a situation
2108
01:33:54,835 --> 01:33:56,585
where they were uncomfortable,
2109
01:33:56,669 --> 01:33:59,085
and then as soon as they started
working with you,
2110
01:33:59,168 --> 01:34:02,085
even a little bit,
you-you cut back on that
2111
01:34:02,168 --> 01:34:04,669
and shift to
social influence techniques.
2112
01:34:04,752 --> 01:34:06,418
Jones:
Mitchell and Jessen themselves
2113
01:34:06,502 --> 01:34:08,043
engaged in the waterboarding.
2114
01:34:08,126 --> 01:34:11,377
They engaged in
all of the Enhanced
Interrogation Techniques.
2115
01:34:11,460 --> 01:34:13,377
And yet they had never applied
these techniques
2116
01:34:13,460 --> 01:34:15,835
to any members
of the US military.
2117
01:34:15,919 --> 01:34:18,335
They were only observers.
2118
01:34:18,418 --> 01:34:19,919
The initial legal opinion
2119
01:34:20,002 --> 01:34:22,043
approved everything
but waterboarding.
2120
01:34:22,126 --> 01:34:24,669
But Jim Mitchell said
he would not do this
2121
01:34:24,752 --> 01:34:26,502
unless waterboarding
was approved
2122
01:34:26,585 --> 01:34:29,710
because it's an absolutely
convincing technique.
2123
01:34:31,543 --> 01:34:33,126
Mitchell:
The Justice Department said
2124
01:34:33,210 --> 01:34:36,877
you could waterboard from
20 to 40 seconds,
2125
01:34:36,961 --> 01:34:39,210
give them three full breaths
2126
01:34:39,293 --> 01:34:42,877
and then waterboard again
for 20 minutes.
2127
01:34:42,961 --> 01:34:45,460
The first time we waterboarded
Abu Zubaydah,
2128
01:34:45,543 --> 01:34:49,669
it was clear to me
that that was too much water
2129
01:34:49,752 --> 01:34:51,168
and it was too long.
2130
01:34:51,252 --> 01:34:53,835
So what we did was
we cut back
2131
01:34:53,919 --> 01:34:57,335
to pours that were
eight seconds.
2132
01:35:03,961 --> 01:35:07,252
You can easily hold
your breath for eight seconds.
2133
01:35:07,335 --> 01:35:09,085
And then there were
two pours
2134
01:35:09,168 --> 01:35:10,543
that were 20 seconds
2135
01:35:10,627 --> 01:35:12,919
and one pour
that was 40 seconds.
2136
01:35:14,877 --> 01:35:16,669
Gibney: Eighty-three times,
was that the number?
2137
01:35:16,752 --> 01:35:19,085
That's the number
of times it was poured.
2138
01:35:19,168 --> 01:35:21,418
We know now
that he was waterboarded
2139
01:35:21,502 --> 01:35:24,752
83 times in the month
of August alone
2140
01:35:24,835 --> 01:35:26,585
and what
the waterboarding is, right,
2141
01:35:26,669 --> 01:35:29,502
sometimes you'll
see it described as
"simulated drowning."
2142
01:35:29,585 --> 01:35:32,043
There's nothing "simulated"
about it at all.
2143
01:35:32,126 --> 01:35:33,585
It's drowning, right?
2144
01:35:33,669 --> 01:35:34,835
You are strapped to a board,
2145
01:35:34,919 --> 01:35:38,669
your legs,
your chest, your arms,
2146
01:35:38,752 --> 01:35:40,585
and your head
is strapped down
2147
01:35:40,669 --> 01:35:41,794
so you cannot move.
2148
01:35:41,877 --> 01:35:43,043
You're utterly immobilized.
2149
01:35:43,126 --> 01:35:46,168
And your neck
is lower than your feet.
2150
01:35:46,252 --> 01:35:47,418
Then they wrap your face
2151
01:35:47,502 --> 01:35:48,919
in something
to obstruct breathing,
2152
01:35:49,002 --> 01:35:51,418
but that allows water
to pass through.
2153
01:35:51,502 --> 01:35:54,794
And then they pour water
up your nose
2154
01:35:54,877 --> 01:35:58,502
and down your throat
so that you breathe the water.
2155
01:35:58,585 --> 01:36:01,543
And if you breathe water,
you will drown.
2156
01:36:01,627 --> 01:36:03,627
And so, straining
against the straps,
2157
01:36:03,710 --> 01:36:06,585
unable to move,
you begin to drown.
2158
01:36:06,669 --> 01:36:09,710
And the art of this
particular torture
2159
01:36:09,794 --> 01:36:12,543
is to know just the moment
2160
01:36:12,627 --> 01:36:15,168
when the brain
convinces the person
2161
01:36:15,252 --> 01:36:16,835
they are about to drown.
2162
01:36:16,919 --> 01:36:19,043
You are about to die.
2163
01:36:19,126 --> 01:36:21,377
And at just that instant,
2164
01:36:21,460 --> 01:36:24,835
when you have just given up
into hysteria
2165
01:36:24,919 --> 01:36:26,502
because you are
about to drown,
2166
01:36:26,585 --> 01:36:28,502
that's when they
raise the board
2167
01:36:28,585 --> 01:36:30,335
and you vomit.
2168
01:36:30,418 --> 01:36:32,335
And just as you take
the first breath,
2169
01:36:32,418 --> 01:36:35,293
they put it down again
and then do it again.
2170
01:36:36,710 --> 01:36:39,043
Mitchell: He wasn't
waterboarded on a board.
2171
01:36:39,126 --> 01:36:42,252
He was waterboarded
on a hospital surgical gurney.
2172
01:36:42,335 --> 01:36:46,126
Because that's what the CIA
wanted him waterboarded on.
2173
01:36:46,210 --> 01:36:48,627
I can't tell you the number,
but it took more than a handful
2174
01:36:48,710 --> 01:36:50,085
of security guards
to raise it up
2175
01:36:50,168 --> 01:36:52,502
so he could clear
his nasal passages.
2176
01:36:55,043 --> 01:36:57,919
Jones: The cables show that
he's having involuntary spasms.
2177
01:36:58,002 --> 01:37:01,085
He's weeping,
he's crying out for Allah.
2178
01:37:01,168 --> 01:37:03,168
Mitchell: We weren't interested
in drowning him.
2179
01:37:03,252 --> 01:37:05,543
We were interested
in getting him
2180
01:37:05,627 --> 01:37:07,377
to want to work with us.
2181
01:37:07,460 --> 01:37:09,377
We weren't interested
in making him suffer.
2182
01:37:09,460 --> 01:37:10,877
Nobody was interested
in that.
2183
01:37:10,961 --> 01:37:12,877
Now, you know,
because it is an art,
2184
01:37:12,961 --> 01:37:15,293
one time they waited
too long
2185
01:37:15,377 --> 01:37:17,752
and they didn't
raise him up fast enough.
2186
01:37:20,502 --> 01:37:24,710
And he actually did come
very, very close to dying.
2187
01:37:24,794 --> 01:37:26,543
Jones: During
one waterboarding session,
2188
01:37:26,627 --> 01:37:29,126
Abu Zubaydah became
completely unresponsive,
2189
01:37:29,210 --> 01:37:31,168
with bubbles rising
out of his mouth
2190
01:37:31,252 --> 01:37:33,377
and needed to have
medical intervention.
2191
01:37:36,877 --> 01:37:39,085
Gibney: Following
his near-death experience,
2192
01:37:39,168 --> 01:37:41,210
Abu Zubaydah
became compliant,
2193
01:37:41,293 --> 01:37:43,335
just like the dogs
who'd been shocked.
2194
01:37:43,418 --> 01:37:45,293
As Mitchell predicted,
2195
01:37:45,377 --> 01:37:47,835
Abu Zubaydah
learned helplessness.
2196
01:37:57,126 --> 01:38:00,293
Rizzo:
This is a perilous course
for the CIA to undertake.
2197
01:38:00,377 --> 01:38:02,335
So we made
a collective decision
2198
01:38:02,418 --> 01:38:03,877
that no one in CIA
2199
01:38:03,961 --> 01:38:06,627
would be required
to take part in it
2200
01:38:06,710 --> 01:38:08,752
if their moral, ethical,
2201
01:38:08,835 --> 01:38:11,043
or just personal dictates
2202
01:38:11,126 --> 01:38:12,919
could not do it.
2203
01:38:13,002 --> 01:38:15,335
They were hardcore
about continuing this,
2204
01:38:15,418 --> 01:38:17,835
but after 72 hours,
I became convinced
2205
01:38:17,919 --> 01:38:19,752
and Doc Jessen became convinced
2206
01:38:19,835 --> 01:38:21,919
that while he had
a lot of information
2207
01:38:22,002 --> 01:38:24,877
that could help us
stop threats in other countries
2208
01:38:24,961 --> 01:38:28,585
and help us identify
the structure of Al-Qaeda,
2209
01:38:28,669 --> 01:38:30,585
he didn't know anything
about attacks
2210
01:38:30,669 --> 01:38:32,377
that were on the ground
in place
2211
01:38:32,460 --> 01:38:33,627
in the United States.
2212
01:38:33,710 --> 01:38:35,710
And so Doc Jessen
and I said,
2213
01:38:35,794 --> 01:38:39,126
"Hey, we don't need
to do this."
2214
01:38:39,210 --> 01:38:40,752
Jones:
Within six days of using
2215
01:38:40,835 --> 01:38:42,418
the Enhanced
Interrogation Techniques,
2216
01:38:42,502 --> 01:38:45,543
there were calls by
the detention site team
2217
01:38:45,627 --> 01:38:48,919
requesting CIA headquarters'
permission to stop.
2218
01:38:49,002 --> 01:38:51,835
People at the detention site
are upset, choking up,
2219
01:38:51,919 --> 01:38:53,794
wanting to leave
the detention site,
2220
01:38:53,877 --> 01:38:56,794
wanting to quit the program,
wanting to go back home.
2221
01:38:56,877 --> 01:38:58,877
They wrote that
they were reaching
2222
01:38:58,961 --> 01:39:01,210
the legal limits
on what they could do.
2223
01:39:01,293 --> 01:39:03,961
Nonetheless,
Jose Rodriguez responds,
2224
01:39:04,043 --> 01:39:06,585
"Do not put your legal concerns
in writing.
2225
01:39:06,669 --> 01:39:08,210
Not helpful."
2226
01:39:10,252 --> 01:39:12,085
Lawyer: Were you involved
in ordering
2227
01:39:12,168 --> 01:39:13,335
Doctors Mitchell and Jessen
2228
01:39:13,418 --> 01:39:15,335
to continue to waterboard
Abu Zubaydah?
2229
01:39:15,418 --> 01:39:16,919
-Yes.
-Lawyer: Why?
2230
01:39:17,002 --> 01:39:20,085
Well, I was the head of it,
and my analysts were concerned
2231
01:39:20,168 --> 01:39:22,002
that perhaps
he was not compliant.
2232
01:39:22,085 --> 01:39:23,085
Lawyer: Mm-hmm.
2233
01:39:23,168 --> 01:39:24,669
It says,
"For several days,"
2234
01:39:24,752 --> 01:39:26,085
Dr. Mitchell writes,
"We questioned
2235
01:39:26,168 --> 01:39:28,502
"the necessity
of continuing the EITs,
2236
01:39:28,585 --> 01:39:30,543
"but every day
we received cables,
2237
01:39:30,627 --> 01:39:32,126
"phone calls, or emails
instructing us
2238
01:39:32,210 --> 01:39:34,752
"to continue waterboarding
Abu Zubaydah.
2239
01:39:34,835 --> 01:39:36,710
"At one point, Bruce
and I pushed back hard
2240
01:39:36,794 --> 01:39:38,085
"and threatened to quit.
2241
01:39:38,168 --> 01:39:40,002
"We were told, quote,
he's turning you.
2242
01:39:40,085 --> 01:39:41,585
"You are not turning him.
2243
01:39:41,669 --> 01:39:43,794
"The officers
we were dealing with,
2244
01:39:43,877 --> 01:39:45,752
"mid-level CTC officials
2245
01:39:45,835 --> 01:39:47,835
"really pissed us off by saying,
'You've lost your spine.'"
2246
01:39:47,919 --> 01:39:49,293
"You've lost your spine.
He's turned you."
2247
01:39:49,377 --> 01:39:50,961
They called us pussies.
They said--
2248
01:39:51,043 --> 01:39:53,043
Lawyer: "If we didn't keep
waterboarding Abu Zubaydah
2249
01:39:53,126 --> 01:39:54,919
"and another attack
happened in United States,
2250
01:39:55,002 --> 01:39:57,085
it would be, quote, unquote,
'Your fault.'"
2251
01:39:57,168 --> 01:39:58,919
Is that,
to your knowledge, true?
2252
01:39:59,002 --> 01:40:01,168
Uh, I don't know what
mid-level officials
2253
01:40:01,252 --> 01:40:04,418
will tell, were telling,
uh... Mitchell.
2254
01:40:04,502 --> 01:40:07,210
Lawyer: Mm-hmm. Did you direct
any mid-level officials
2255
01:40:07,293 --> 01:40:09,585
-to say that kind
of thing to Mitchell?
-No.
2256
01:40:11,543 --> 01:40:14,335
There came a point
when Dr. Jessen and I said,
2257
01:40:14,418 --> 01:40:16,669
"We're not going to continue
doing this, you know.
2258
01:40:16,752 --> 01:40:18,752
"We don't think
it's necessary to continue
2259
01:40:18,835 --> 01:40:20,669
to waterboard
Abu Zubaydah."
2260
01:40:20,752 --> 01:40:23,794
At one point, they requested
that CIA personnel travel
2261
01:40:23,877 --> 01:40:25,085
to the detention site
2262
01:40:25,168 --> 01:40:27,043
and observe
what they were doing.
2263
01:40:27,126 --> 01:40:29,210
CIA headquarters declined.
2264
01:40:29,293 --> 01:40:31,710
So the detention site
personnel decided
2265
01:40:31,794 --> 01:40:33,919
to put together
a "Best Of" tape.
2266
01:40:35,085 --> 01:40:37,168
And the purpose
of that tape was
2267
01:40:37,252 --> 01:40:39,627
to depict
the absolute worst moments
2268
01:40:39,710 --> 01:40:42,835
of torture of Abu Zubaydah,
to make it very visceral.
2269
01:40:42,919 --> 01:40:45,418
So CIA headquarters
would view this tape
2270
01:40:45,502 --> 01:40:46,752
and say,
"Okay, we need to stop.
2271
01:40:46,835 --> 01:40:49,002
We agree. Stop torturing
Abu Zubaydah."
2272
01:40:49,085 --> 01:40:52,002
Instead, headquarters
told them to keep going.
2273
01:40:52,085 --> 01:40:54,585
-Gibney:
After they viewed the tape?
-After they viewed the tape.
2274
01:40:55,877 --> 01:40:58,418
The detention site personnel
were surprised.
2275
01:40:58,502 --> 01:41:01,002
They blamed it on
a poor video link.
2276
01:41:01,085 --> 01:41:02,460
They can't quite see
the quality
2277
01:41:02,543 --> 01:41:05,335
of how bad it is
with this tape.
2278
01:41:05,418 --> 01:41:07,835
They couldn't believe
that anyone could view
2279
01:41:07,919 --> 01:41:10,168
what was happening
and tell them to keep going.
2280
01:41:11,585 --> 01:41:13,794
Gibney: In Washington,
psychologist Terry DeMay,
2281
01:41:13,877 --> 01:41:16,794
the head of CIA's Office
of Medical Services,
2282
01:41:16,877 --> 01:41:18,252
raised a ruckus.
2283
01:41:18,335 --> 01:41:20,710
After receiving
a series of secret messages
2284
01:41:20,794 --> 01:41:22,293
from nurses
at the black site,
2285
01:41:22,377 --> 01:41:24,794
DeMay would later
denounce the interrogation
2286
01:41:24,877 --> 01:41:26,710
as an amateurish experiment,
2287
01:41:26,794 --> 01:41:29,293
not safe or effective.
2288
01:41:29,377 --> 01:41:31,252
To get a firsthand assessment,
2289
01:41:31,335 --> 01:41:34,669
Jose Rodriguez sent a team
from headquarters to Thailand.
2290
01:41:34,752 --> 01:41:38,126
Among them were the lawyer
who had recommended
Mitchell for the job
2291
01:41:38,210 --> 01:41:40,669
and an analyst
named Alfreda Bikowsky,
2292
01:41:40,752 --> 01:41:43,252
whose enthusiasm
for harsh interrogations
2293
01:41:43,335 --> 01:41:47,168
would earn her the nickname
"The Queen of Torture."
2294
01:41:47,252 --> 01:41:49,126
Mitchell:
I suggested that they be
2295
01:41:49,210 --> 01:41:51,168
in the room
with us unmasked
2296
01:41:51,252 --> 01:41:52,627
while we did
the waterboarding
2297
01:41:52,710 --> 01:41:54,835
so they could see
what it was really like.
2298
01:41:54,919 --> 01:41:57,418
And we waterboarded him
one last time,
2299
01:41:57,502 --> 01:42:00,085
and the most senior person
there said,
2300
01:42:00,168 --> 01:42:02,502
"We don't need
to do this anymore.
2301
01:42:02,585 --> 01:42:05,126
"We concur that he probably
doesn't know anything
2302
01:42:05,210 --> 01:42:07,585
"about current threats
inside the United States
2303
01:42:07,669 --> 01:42:09,377
"or he's, you know, he's,
2304
01:42:09,460 --> 01:42:11,502
he's not going
to share them."
2305
01:42:11,585 --> 01:42:14,669
And, um... literally,
2306
01:42:14,752 --> 01:42:17,585
we bathed him and told him
we weren't going to,
2307
01:42:17,669 --> 01:42:19,752
you know, nothing bad
was going to happen to him,
2308
01:42:19,835 --> 01:42:21,961
uh, and, uh...
2309
01:42:22,043 --> 01:42:23,835
it was
a pretty touching moment.
2310
01:42:25,002 --> 01:42:27,126
Gibney:
The CIA cables from Thailand
2311
01:42:27,210 --> 01:42:29,168
struck a very different tone.
2312
01:42:40,210 --> 01:42:41,627
Jones:
The detention site never said
2313
01:42:41,710 --> 01:42:43,919
that Abu Zubaydah
had information.
2314
01:42:44,002 --> 01:42:45,877
In fact, Mitchell
and others say
2315
01:42:45,961 --> 01:42:49,002
the program was a success,
not because it produced
2316
01:42:49,085 --> 01:42:50,710
vital unavailable information,
2317
01:42:50,794 --> 01:42:52,543
but because it proved
from the very beginning
2318
01:42:52,627 --> 01:42:54,126
he never had that information.
2319
01:42:55,210 --> 01:42:57,085
Gibney:
There was one other success.
2320
01:42:57,168 --> 01:42:58,710
Toward the end
of the torture,
2321
01:42:58,794 --> 01:43:00,669
when the new team
from Washington was watching,
2322
01:43:00,752 --> 01:43:03,543
Abu Zubaydah said he made up
a number of plots
2323
01:43:03,627 --> 01:43:05,085
and admitted that, yes,
2324
01:43:05,168 --> 01:43:07,919
he really was the number three
in Al-Qaeda.
2325
01:43:08,002 --> 01:43:11,126
He knew it was false.
The CIA knew it was false.
2326
01:43:11,210 --> 01:43:14,835
But his confession confirmed
that the CIA's techniques
2327
01:43:14,919 --> 01:43:18,252
could get him to say anything
to make the torture stop.
2328
01:43:20,293 --> 01:43:21,877
Jones:
They finally get permission
2329
01:43:21,961 --> 01:43:23,752
to stop torturing
Abu Zubaydah,
2330
01:43:23,835 --> 01:43:26,126
and they call
the program a success.
2331
01:43:26,210 --> 01:43:29,502
And the cable recommends
using the same techniques
2332
01:43:29,585 --> 01:43:31,460
for other
high-value detainees.
2333
01:43:31,543 --> 01:43:34,502
And who wrote that cable?
Jim Mitchell.
2334
01:43:34,585 --> 01:43:36,543
Gibney:
Mitchell denies
writing the cable
2335
01:43:36,627 --> 01:43:38,126
but the techniques he devised
2336
01:43:38,210 --> 01:43:40,168
would become
standard operating procedure
2337
01:43:40,252 --> 01:43:42,168
for the CIA.
2338
01:43:42,252 --> 01:43:45,126
For a price
of over $180 million,
2339
01:43:45,210 --> 01:43:47,460
the CIA would contract
Mitchell and Jessen
2340
01:43:47,543 --> 01:43:49,669
to train and supervise
interrogators
2341
01:43:49,752 --> 01:43:52,460
at black sites
in eight foreign countries.
2342
01:43:52,543 --> 01:43:55,460
Despite Mitchell's attempts
to impose guidelines,
2343
01:43:55,543 --> 01:43:57,835
things would spin
out of control.
2344
01:43:57,919 --> 01:43:59,627
Following the torture
of Abu Zubaydah,
2345
01:43:59,710 --> 01:44:01,961
EITs mutated like a virus
2346
01:44:02,043 --> 01:44:04,919
and spread throughout the CIA
to Guantanamo
2347
01:44:05,002 --> 01:44:07,794
and military operations
in Afghanistan and Iraq.
2348
01:44:07,877 --> 01:44:10,710
What evolved
from Mitchell's techniques
2349
01:44:10,794 --> 01:44:12,627
was revealed
in the photographs
2350
01:44:12,710 --> 01:44:14,710
from the prison at Abu Ghraib.
2351
01:44:16,210 --> 01:44:18,543
The public uproar
over those images
2352
01:44:18,627 --> 01:44:20,126
caused the CIA to reckon
2353
01:44:20,210 --> 01:44:22,002
with its own
photographic record.
2354
01:44:22,085 --> 01:44:25,877
("The Blue Danube Waltz"
playing)
2355
01:44:25,961 --> 01:44:29,877
♪ ♪
2356
01:44:34,794 --> 01:44:36,669
Rizzo:
The first time I knew that
2357
01:44:36,752 --> 01:44:37,961
Zubaydah was being videotaped
2358
01:44:38,043 --> 01:44:40,585
is when Jose Rodriguez
came to me and said,
2359
01:44:40,669 --> 01:44:43,919
"We have these videotapes.
We want to destroy them."
2360
01:44:44,002 --> 01:44:48,002
So that was the first
I learned that they existed.
2361
01:44:48,085 --> 01:44:51,543
-Interviewer:
What was your reaction?
-(laughs)
2362
01:44:51,627 --> 01:44:53,794
"Whatever you do,
do not destroy them."
2363
01:44:53,877 --> 01:44:57,168
(waltz continues)
2364
01:45:02,460 --> 01:45:03,585
But, of course,
2365
01:45:03,669 --> 01:45:06,919
destroying evidence,
destroying videotapes,
2366
01:45:07,002 --> 01:45:09,377
would inevitably lead
2367
01:45:09,460 --> 01:45:12,669
sooner or later
to accusations of a cover-up.
2368
01:45:13,335 --> 01:45:17,752
♪ ♪
2369
01:45:17,835 --> 01:45:20,043
Rodriguez:
I felt it was important
to have the tapes destroyed
2370
01:45:20,126 --> 01:45:22,835
because I needed
to protect the people
2371
01:45:22,919 --> 01:45:25,919
who were there
in the black sites.
2372
01:45:26,002 --> 01:45:28,252
-That was the primary reason.
-Lawyer: Mm-hmm.
2373
01:45:28,335 --> 01:45:29,877
Was there
a secondary reason?
2374
01:45:29,961 --> 01:45:32,377
Well, the secondary reason,
as I have said publicly,
2375
01:45:32,460 --> 01:45:35,002
was that the, uh...
2376
01:45:36,460 --> 01:45:39,043
public, the media
would not make a distinction
2377
01:45:39,126 --> 01:45:41,293
once the tapes
were released
2378
01:45:41,377 --> 01:45:45,252
between a legally
approved program
like this was
2379
01:45:45,335 --> 01:45:47,293
and the Abu Ghraib scandal
2380
01:45:47,377 --> 01:45:50,502
that involved
illegal activity.
2381
01:45:50,585 --> 01:45:52,335
It would make
the CIA look bad,
2382
01:45:52,418 --> 01:45:54,794
and it would, actually,
in my view,
2383
01:45:54,877 --> 01:45:56,794
you know, almost destroy
2384
01:45:56,877 --> 01:45:58,418
the clandestine service
because of it.
2385
01:45:58,502 --> 01:45:59,752
Lawyer:
Mm-hmm.
2386
01:46:02,794 --> 01:46:04,794
Did you have anything
to do with the destruction
2387
01:46:04,877 --> 01:46:06,085
of those videotapes?
2388
01:46:06,168 --> 01:46:07,085
No.
2389
01:46:07,168 --> 01:46:08,835
Lawyer: Did you have
any conversations
2390
01:46:08,919 --> 01:46:10,168
with anybody
at any time
2391
01:46:10,252 --> 01:46:11,794
about the destruction
of those videotapes
2392
01:46:11,877 --> 01:46:12,835
other than your lawyers?
2393
01:46:12,919 --> 01:46:13,752
Yes.
2394
01:46:13,835 --> 01:46:16,085
Mitchell:
I told the...
2395
01:46:16,168 --> 01:46:17,502
I forget
what he's called,
2396
01:46:17,585 --> 01:46:19,418
I think the chief
of clandestine service,
2397
01:46:19,502 --> 01:46:22,752
that I thought those videotapes
should be destroyed
2398
01:46:22,835 --> 01:46:25,377
because I, I thought
they were ugly
2399
01:46:25,460 --> 01:46:27,877
and they would,
you know,
2400
01:46:27,961 --> 01:46:30,043
potentially endanger
our lives
2401
01:46:30,126 --> 01:46:31,919
by putting
our pictures out,
2402
01:46:32,002 --> 01:46:34,961
uh, so that the bad guys
could see us.
2403
01:46:35,043 --> 01:46:37,002
Rizzo: When I learned
that they had been destroyed,
2404
01:46:37,085 --> 01:46:39,543
I was beside myself.
2405
01:46:39,627 --> 01:46:42,502
But I was told, "Oh, your
lawyers signed off on this."
2406
01:46:42,585 --> 01:46:44,794
That piqued my interest,
needless to say.
2407
01:46:46,543 --> 01:46:48,293
But the final
approval authority
2408
01:46:48,377 --> 01:46:51,126
on the actual directive
to the field station
2409
01:46:51,210 --> 01:46:52,752
that was holding these tapes
2410
01:46:52,835 --> 01:46:54,168
was Mr. Rodriguez.
2411
01:46:54,252 --> 01:46:59,210
And it was drafted by
Mr. Rodriguez's chief of staff.
2412
01:46:59,293 --> 01:47:02,377
Gibney: Mr. Rodriguez's chief
of staff was Gina Haspel,
2413
01:47:02,460 --> 01:47:06,710
who would rise to become
the CIA director in 2017.
2414
01:47:06,794 --> 01:47:10,043
Neither she nor Mr. Rodriguez
was punished
2415
01:47:10,126 --> 01:47:13,002
or charged with a crime
for destroying evidence.
2416
01:47:13,085 --> 01:47:15,377
The tapes were destroyed
for one reason,
2417
01:47:15,460 --> 01:47:18,210
and that was because they were
so damned incriminating
2418
01:47:18,293 --> 01:47:19,835
with regard to going beyond,
2419
01:47:19,919 --> 01:47:21,669
going well beyond
anything that,
2420
01:47:21,752 --> 01:47:24,085
you know, you would have had
to have said, "That's torture."
2421
01:47:24,168 --> 01:47:26,418
That's torture,
clear and plain.
2422
01:47:26,502 --> 01:47:29,293
It is not covered by
the Bybee memo, the Yoo memo,
2423
01:47:29,377 --> 01:47:31,585
it's not covered
by anything, that's torture.
2424
01:47:33,043 --> 01:47:36,168
("The Blue Danube Waltz"
continues)
2425
01:47:43,835 --> 01:47:48,168
Margulies: The best evidence
of what happened is the video.
2426
01:47:48,252 --> 01:47:51,377
So the destruction
of the tapes was
2427
01:47:51,460 --> 01:47:53,335
an-an-an egregious abuse.
2428
01:47:54,627 --> 01:47:56,877
You could never capture
2429
01:47:56,961 --> 01:47:58,919
what took place
at Abu Ghraib
2430
01:47:59,002 --> 01:48:00,710
without the pictures.
2431
01:48:00,794 --> 01:48:03,877
We have a dialog
about Abu Ghraib
2432
01:48:03,961 --> 01:48:06,877
because the pictures exist.
2433
01:48:06,961 --> 01:48:09,210
Well, we don't have that
with Abu Zubaydah.
2434
01:48:09,293 --> 01:48:12,293
So we asked him to draw
what was done to him
2435
01:48:12,377 --> 01:48:13,877
as best he could
reconstruct it.
2436
01:48:13,961 --> 01:48:15,377
To understand it.
2437
01:48:20,835 --> 01:48:23,377
Jones: I came to the Senate
in January of 2007.
2438
01:48:23,460 --> 01:48:25,210
By the end of that year,
2439
01:48:25,293 --> 01:48:26,752
there was
a "New York Times" article
2440
01:48:26,835 --> 01:48:29,585
that came out that said
the CIA had destroyed
2441
01:48:29,669 --> 01:48:33,752
interrogation videotapes
from early 2002.
2442
01:48:33,835 --> 01:48:35,460
The Senate Intelligence
Committee had been looking
2443
01:48:35,543 --> 01:48:37,043
to learn more
about this program
2444
01:48:37,126 --> 01:48:38,710
for a very long time.
2445
01:48:38,794 --> 01:48:41,168
They had no idea
that tapes existed,
2446
01:48:41,252 --> 01:48:43,252
so they call the CIA
and demand
2447
01:48:43,335 --> 01:48:45,627
that the then CIA director,
Michael Hayden,
2448
01:48:45,710 --> 01:48:47,752
come to the Committee
to explain
2449
01:48:47,835 --> 01:48:49,585
the destruction of tapes.
2450
01:48:49,669 --> 01:48:51,335
I'm very delighted
to come on down
2451
01:48:51,418 --> 01:48:53,377
and lay out the facts
as we know them,
2452
01:48:53,460 --> 01:48:54,627
and we'll be very happy
2453
01:48:54,710 --> 01:48:56,877
to let the facts take us
where they will.
2454
01:48:56,961 --> 01:48:58,168
Michael Hayden testifies
2455
01:48:58,252 --> 01:49:00,252
that this was not
destruction of evidence.
2456
01:49:00,335 --> 01:49:02,085
In fact, the CIA has
2457
01:49:02,168 --> 01:49:03,961
very detailed
written records
2458
01:49:04,043 --> 01:49:06,377
of everything that happened
at the detention site,
2459
01:49:06,460 --> 01:49:08,252
so it didn't need
those videotapes.
2460
01:49:08,335 --> 01:49:09,961
There are written records.
2461
01:49:10,043 --> 01:49:12,002
And he says if the committee
wants to see those records,
2462
01:49:12,085 --> 01:49:13,669
of course it can see
those records.
2463
01:49:13,752 --> 01:49:15,835
So what does the committee
say immediately?
2464
01:49:15,919 --> 01:49:17,877
"We want to see
these records tomorrow."
2465
01:49:18,919 --> 01:49:20,585
The committee finally acquires
2466
01:49:20,669 --> 01:49:22,752
those heavily redacted cables
2467
01:49:22,835 --> 01:49:25,002
in May of 2008,
2468
01:49:25,085 --> 01:49:27,460
and myself and two other
Senate staffers
2469
01:49:27,543 --> 01:49:28,669
are sent to the CIA
2470
01:49:28,752 --> 01:49:31,377
to review these cables
and write a report.
2471
01:49:32,502 --> 01:49:33,794
The CIA eventually gave us
2472
01:49:33,877 --> 01:49:37,210
6.3 million pages
of documents.
2473
01:49:37,293 --> 01:49:41,002
We identified at least
119 CIA detainees.
2474
01:49:41,085 --> 01:49:43,418
Reporter: But at the heart
of this release today
2475
01:49:43,502 --> 01:49:45,877
is the conclusion
that the interrogations
2476
01:49:45,961 --> 01:49:48,377
did not make
the country safer
2477
01:49:48,460 --> 01:49:50,502
and that
the CIA misled
2478
01:49:50,585 --> 01:49:52,627
the Bush administration
about the program.
2479
01:49:52,710 --> 01:49:54,543
Jones:
We saw constant manipulation
2480
01:49:54,627 --> 01:49:56,460
of the White House,
the Department of Justice,
2481
01:49:56,543 --> 01:49:57,710
and Congress by the CIA.
2482
01:49:57,794 --> 01:49:59,293
I mean, this is what
I thought would be
2483
01:49:59,377 --> 01:50:00,627
the most important finding
2484
01:50:00,710 --> 01:50:03,210
coming out of the Senate
Intelligence Committee report.
2485
01:50:03,293 --> 01:50:05,919
You know, misleading Bush,
misleading Obama,
2486
01:50:06,002 --> 01:50:08,919
misleading the Congress,
repeatedly we see this.
2487
01:50:09,002 --> 01:50:11,543
John Brennan,
CIA director under Obama,
2488
01:50:11,627 --> 01:50:13,460
made a speech
after the report came out
2489
01:50:13,543 --> 01:50:15,043
and said we'll never know
2490
01:50:15,126 --> 01:50:17,627
if we could've gotten
this intelligence
in any other way.
2491
01:50:17,710 --> 01:50:20,293
...and the ultimate provision
of the information
2492
01:50:20,377 --> 01:50:22,669
is unknown and unknowable.
2493
01:50:22,752 --> 01:50:25,335
Jones: But we do know,
we have an entire report,
2494
01:50:25,418 --> 01:50:28,168
500 pages here
with almost 3,000 footnotes
2495
01:50:28,252 --> 01:50:30,335
and a 7,000-page
classified report
2496
01:50:30,418 --> 01:50:31,752
with 38,000 footnotes
2497
01:50:31,835 --> 01:50:33,710
that says
we do know that, in fact,
2498
01:50:33,794 --> 01:50:35,085
the capture of Jose Padilla
2499
01:50:35,168 --> 01:50:36,710
did not come
from the waterboarding
2500
01:50:36,794 --> 01:50:38,002
of Abu Zubaydah.
2501
01:50:38,085 --> 01:50:40,252
We do know that,
because the records
are there.
2502
01:50:40,335 --> 01:50:42,210
We tortured some folks.
2503
01:50:42,293 --> 01:50:45,002
We did some things that were
contrary to our values.
2504
01:50:45,085 --> 01:50:47,085
It's important for us
2505
01:50:47,168 --> 01:50:49,002
not to,
2506
01:50:49,085 --> 01:50:52,335
uh, feel too sanctimonious
2507
01:50:52,418 --> 01:50:53,919
in retrospect
2508
01:50:54,002 --> 01:50:56,126
about the tough job
that those folks have.
2509
01:50:56,210 --> 01:50:58,043
And a lot of those folks
2510
01:50:58,126 --> 01:51:00,669
were working hard,
2511
01:51:00,752 --> 01:51:04,877
under enormous pressure,
and are real patriots.
2512
01:51:04,961 --> 01:51:07,252
But having said all that...
2513
01:51:07,335 --> 01:51:10,460
we did some things
that were wrong.
2514
01:51:10,543 --> 01:51:12,710
Jones: I remember hearing
that line about patriots
2515
01:51:12,794 --> 01:51:14,418
and thinking
about the people
2516
01:51:14,502 --> 01:51:16,210
who said they were resigning
from the CIA,
2517
01:51:16,293 --> 01:51:18,335
people who said they didn't
want to be involved
in this program
2518
01:51:18,418 --> 01:51:21,085
and the people who engaged
in the torture,
2519
01:51:21,168 --> 01:51:22,335
who defended the torture.
2520
01:51:22,418 --> 01:51:26,585
And this is who Obama identifies
as real patriots.
2521
01:51:26,669 --> 01:51:29,085
Gibney: The word "patriot"
struck a chord with me.
2522
01:51:29,168 --> 01:51:31,543
So long as you believe
you're a patriot,
2523
01:51:31,627 --> 01:51:33,877
do the ends
always justify the means?
2524
01:51:33,961 --> 01:51:35,919
And if we all believe that,
2525
01:51:36,002 --> 01:51:38,460
are we prepared
to abandon our principles
2526
01:51:38,543 --> 01:51:40,002
in order to defend them?
2527
01:51:42,752 --> 01:51:44,585
Jose Rodriguez
and James Mitchell
2528
01:51:44,669 --> 01:51:45,919
both live in Florida.
2529
01:51:46,002 --> 01:51:48,377
Mitchell's company
grossed $81 million
2530
01:51:48,460 --> 01:51:50,168
for his interrogation services.
2531
01:51:50,252 --> 01:51:53,002
Rodriguez became
an intelligence consultant
2532
01:51:53,085 --> 01:51:54,669
working for IBM.
2533
01:51:54,752 --> 01:51:56,794
He has a fondness for
Corvettes and Harleys
2534
01:51:56,877 --> 01:51:58,835
and owns
a 30-foot powerboat
2535
01:51:58,919 --> 01:52:01,418
called "Shaken, Not Stirred."
2536
01:52:01,502 --> 01:52:02,835
It's a great thing
about this government,
2537
01:52:02,919 --> 01:52:04,293
the only people
that ever stand up
2538
01:52:04,377 --> 01:52:06,669
and tell the truth are who,
intelligence officers,
2539
01:52:06,752 --> 01:52:08,919
because our culture is never
break faith with the truth.
2540
01:52:09,002 --> 01:52:11,543
We'll tell you, you don't have
to drag it out of us.
2541
01:52:21,543 --> 01:52:22,961
Mitchell: You're not
going to get me
2542
01:52:23,043 --> 01:52:24,335
to say I think
it's torture.
2543
01:52:24,418 --> 01:52:25,961
You might as well
just quit.
2544
01:52:26,043 --> 01:52:28,377
If you want to think
it's torture, think
what you want to think.
2545
01:52:28,460 --> 01:52:30,627
I'm not in the business
of controlling your mind,
2546
01:52:30,710 --> 01:52:32,710
nor am I in the business
of trying to coerce you
2547
01:52:32,794 --> 01:52:34,627
into saying something
that you don't believe
2548
01:52:34,710 --> 01:52:36,919
or want to comment on.
2549
01:52:37,043 --> 01:52:40,085
This was the least worse
of two bad choices.
2550
01:52:40,168 --> 01:52:41,794
Both choices suck.
2551
01:52:41,877 --> 01:52:43,919
Both choices are bad.
2552
01:52:44,002 --> 01:52:45,710
But on the one hand,
you have
2553
01:52:45,794 --> 01:52:47,335
thousands of dead Americans
2554
01:52:47,418 --> 01:52:48,710
and on the other hand,
you have
2555
01:52:48,794 --> 01:52:50,877
the temporary discomfort
of a terrorist.
2556
01:52:52,418 --> 01:52:55,210
I thought there was going to be
a major catastrophic attack
2557
01:52:55,293 --> 01:52:58,002
that was going to kill
millions of Americans.
2558
01:52:58,085 --> 01:52:59,293
And, uh...
2559
01:53:04,460 --> 01:53:07,502
I thought that
my government had asked me
2560
01:53:07,585 --> 01:53:09,794
to stop it.
2561
01:53:09,877 --> 01:53:13,168
And I felt responsible...
for doing that.
2562
01:53:13,252 --> 01:53:14,752
That's what I thought.
2563
01:53:20,919 --> 01:53:22,418
Gibney: From near
his home in Florida,
2564
01:53:22,502 --> 01:53:24,961
Mitchell can paddle
to the Gulf of Mexico.
2565
01:53:26,293 --> 01:53:27,585
From there,
it's a straight shot
2566
01:53:27,669 --> 01:53:29,669
to Cuba
and Guantanamo,
2567
01:53:29,752 --> 01:53:32,377
where Abu Zubaydah
lives out his days.
2568
01:53:32,460 --> 01:53:34,043
As its creators intended,
2569
01:53:34,126 --> 01:53:36,502
Gitmo is a kind of
nowhere land
2570
01:53:36,585 --> 01:53:38,752
outside of time and place.
2571
01:53:38,835 --> 01:53:42,210
The images you see here
were shot by me in 2006.
2572
01:53:42,293 --> 01:53:44,335
The government
won't permit me to return,
2573
01:53:44,418 --> 01:53:46,502
so I depend on others
to tell me
2574
01:53:46,585 --> 01:53:47,919
not much has changed.
2575
01:53:48,002 --> 01:53:51,377
Fast food,
first-run movies,
2576
01:53:51,460 --> 01:53:53,543
the gift shop
where I bought my T-shirt,
2577
01:53:53,627 --> 01:53:57,502
sporting a local joke
about interrogators.
2578
01:53:57,585 --> 01:53:59,877
After Thailand,
Abu Zubaydah would be sent
2579
01:53:59,961 --> 01:54:01,460
to black sites
in Poland,
2580
01:54:01,543 --> 01:54:03,335
Lithuania, and Morocco.
2581
01:54:03,418 --> 01:54:05,377
When he first landed
in Gitmo,
2582
01:54:05,460 --> 01:54:08,126
he was imprisoned
in the secret CIA unit
2583
01:54:08,210 --> 01:54:10,377
known as Strawberry Fields,
2584
01:54:10,460 --> 01:54:11,961
as in forever.
2585
01:54:12,043 --> 01:54:15,085
♪ Strawberry fields forever ♪
2586
01:54:15,168 --> 01:54:17,293
Recently, along with
the 13 others
2587
01:54:17,377 --> 01:54:19,543
held in indefinite detention,
2588
01:54:19,627 --> 01:54:23,252
he was moved to
Guantanamo's Camp V.
2589
01:54:23,335 --> 01:54:26,418
No one will say what kind
of law governs Abu Zubaydah.
2590
01:54:26,502 --> 01:54:28,210
So he has two legal teams,
2591
01:54:28,293 --> 01:54:31,502
one civilian and one
for the military commissions.
2592
01:54:31,585 --> 01:54:33,794
His military lawyer,
Chantell Higgins,
2593
01:54:33,877 --> 01:54:35,210
sees him most often.
2594
01:54:37,043 --> 01:54:39,543
Zayn is
a colorful storyteller.
2595
01:54:40,335 --> 01:54:41,377
Very funny.
2596
01:54:41,460 --> 01:54:43,961
Always well-dressed.
Very particular.
2597
01:54:44,043 --> 01:54:47,835
He's a sort of a...
2598
01:54:47,919 --> 01:54:50,669
how do I say it, a diva.
(laughs)
2599
01:54:53,252 --> 01:54:56,002
Gibney: Does he suffer
from some kind of PTSD?
2600
01:54:56,085 --> 01:54:58,168
I don't know how anyone
could have endured that
2601
01:54:58,252 --> 01:55:00,627
and not suffered
from PTSD.
2602
01:55:00,710 --> 01:55:03,168
I know that he has nightmares
about drowning.
2603
01:55:04,210 --> 01:55:05,794
Waking up and drowning.
2604
01:55:17,002 --> 01:55:18,961
Gibney: To what extent
does Abu Zubaydah remember
2605
01:55:19,043 --> 01:55:20,794
anything about James Mitchell?
2606
01:55:20,877 --> 01:55:22,877
Does he remember
who he was?
2607
01:55:22,961 --> 01:55:24,293
(sighs)
2608
01:55:25,961 --> 01:55:29,168
Uh, yeah, he remembers
very clearly who he was.
2609
01:55:30,627 --> 01:55:31,794
Yeah.
2610
01:55:31,877 --> 01:55:34,252
Gibney:
And does he understand
that he was the guy
2611
01:55:34,335 --> 01:55:36,085
who designed
these techniques?
2612
01:55:36,168 --> 01:55:37,293
He does.
2613
01:55:37,377 --> 01:55:39,835
I think all the detainees
understand that by now.
2614
01:55:42,168 --> 01:55:45,585
Rizzo: Abu Zubaydah was
the first high-level detainee.
2615
01:55:45,669 --> 01:55:47,168
But he's not
one of the ones
2616
01:55:47,252 --> 01:55:50,585
who have actually been charged
by the military commissions.
2617
01:55:50,669 --> 01:55:55,002
So his status is...
really permanent limbo.
2618
01:55:55,085 --> 01:55:56,752
I can't imagine
any US President
2619
01:55:56,835 --> 01:55:59,293
in any US administration
ever letting him go.
2620
01:55:59,377 --> 01:56:02,377
But what do you do
with him?
2621
01:56:02,460 --> 01:56:04,210
Lt. Col. Chantell Higgins:
In America,
we have this thing
2622
01:56:04,293 --> 01:56:06,335
called innocent
until proven guilty.
2623
01:56:06,418 --> 01:56:08,293
If we think they're
guilty of something
2624
01:56:08,377 --> 01:56:10,293
we should take them
to trial,
2625
01:56:10,377 --> 01:56:12,919
give them opportunity
to be heard,
2626
01:56:13,002 --> 01:56:16,210
sentence them accordingly,
and send them on their way.
2627
01:56:17,585 --> 01:56:20,752
It's just inhumane
2628
01:56:20,835 --> 01:56:24,168
to... detain someone...
2629
01:56:25,002 --> 01:56:27,252
and not give them rights.
2630
01:56:27,919 --> 01:56:28,919
Period.
2631
01:56:31,126 --> 01:56:32,710
Mora: Almost half
of the American public believes
2632
01:56:32,794 --> 01:56:35,085
that the use of torture
is acceptable.
2633
01:56:35,168 --> 01:56:37,752
There's growing acceptance
of the use of cruelty
2634
01:56:37,835 --> 01:56:39,043
as a tool
2635
01:56:39,126 --> 01:56:41,543
to address
social situations
2636
01:56:41,627 --> 01:56:43,710
or national security crises.
2637
01:56:43,794 --> 01:56:45,585
And I think in the right
combination of situations,
2638
01:56:45,669 --> 01:56:48,877
you have other individuals
who'll say,
2639
01:56:48,961 --> 01:56:51,293
"This is another tool
we should use again,"
2640
01:56:51,377 --> 01:56:53,710
and we'll go back to use it
despite all the reasons
2641
01:56:53,794 --> 01:56:56,085
why it shouldn't be
countenanced again.
2642
01:56:59,710 --> 01:57:01,377
Gibney:
For nearly 20 years,
2643
01:57:01,460 --> 01:57:04,085
Abu Zubaydah has been
in US custody.
2644
01:57:04,168 --> 01:57:06,418
In all that time,
the man with one eye
2645
01:57:06,502 --> 01:57:07,794
and one good leg
2646
01:57:07,877 --> 01:57:11,669
has remained
mostly incommunicado.
2647
01:57:11,752 --> 01:57:13,669
I can see some
of his drawings.
2648
01:57:13,752 --> 01:57:15,502
I can read censored letters,
2649
01:57:15,585 --> 01:57:17,585
and the briefs
of his lawyers.
2650
01:57:17,669 --> 01:57:19,418
But I cannot talk to him.
2651
01:57:19,502 --> 01:57:21,043
His voice has been kept silent,
2652
01:57:21,126 --> 01:57:23,293
just as the CIA promised.
2653
01:57:24,460 --> 01:57:26,168
He's the forever prisoner
2654
01:57:26,252 --> 01:57:27,752
meant to fade from memory
2655
01:57:27,835 --> 01:57:30,585
like old photographs
left in the sun.
2656
01:57:42,085 --> 01:57:43,835
Twenty years after 9/11,
2657
01:57:43,919 --> 01:57:45,585
I'm stirred to remember
the innocents
2658
01:57:45,669 --> 01:57:47,835
who died on that day.
2659
01:57:47,919 --> 01:57:50,043
But I'm also stirred
to remember the purpose
2660
01:57:50,126 --> 01:57:52,252
of that vicious attack.
2661
01:57:52,335 --> 01:57:53,835
It wasn't to win a war.
2662
01:57:53,919 --> 01:57:55,460
It was to provoke us
to abandon
2663
01:57:55,543 --> 01:57:59,293
the principles of democracy
we claim to live by.
2664
01:57:59,377 --> 01:58:01,669
The forever prisoner
is a living reminder
2665
01:58:01,752 --> 01:58:03,919
of one of the ideals
we abandoned:
2666
01:58:04,002 --> 01:58:06,210
equal justice
under the law.
2667
01:58:06,293 --> 01:58:07,752
As the saying goes,
2668
01:58:07,835 --> 01:58:10,543
there is no them,
there is only us.
2669
01:58:11,543 --> 01:58:13,210
If we believe in that idea,
2670
01:58:13,293 --> 01:58:16,002
how can we imprison a man
without charge
2671
01:58:16,085 --> 01:58:18,210
for the remainder of his life?
2672
01:58:18,293 --> 01:58:20,252
Not for what he did to us...
2673
01:58:20,335 --> 01:58:22,710
but for what
we did to him.
2674
01:58:23,794 --> 01:58:26,669
♪ ♪
2675
01:58:28,377 --> 01:58:31,460
♪ ♪