1 00:00:01,435 --> 00:00:03,220 Previously on Women Who Rock... 2 00:00:03,350 --> 00:00:05,091 The Wilson Sisters of Heart-- 3 00:00:05,222 --> 00:00:06,484 they were women who 4 00:00:06,614 --> 00:00:08,268 carved the way for a lot of us. 5 00:00:08,399 --> 00:00:10,053 At the time, there weren't very many 6 00:00:10,183 --> 00:00:11,141 bands with girls in. 7 00:00:11,271 --> 00:00:12,925 Joni Mitchell was my queen. 8 00:00:13,056 --> 00:00:15,145 Her voice soared through. 9 00:00:15,275 --> 00:00:16,494 Women had started 10 00:00:16,624 --> 00:00:18,583 asserting their power through music. 11 00:00:18,713 --> 00:00:21,890 I wanted to be a musician who happened to be a girl, 12 00:00:22,021 --> 00:00:23,588 not girl musician. 13 00:00:23,718 --> 00:00:25,938 There was suddenly, like, an underground punk scene, 14 00:00:26,069 --> 00:00:28,114 and it was Blondie, and Patti. 15 00:00:28,245 --> 00:00:30,160 We thought Patti was the punk priestess, 16 00:00:30,290 --> 00:00:32,814 and Debbie, she was the punk princess. 17 00:00:32,945 --> 00:00:35,034 I got more power during my solo career 18 00:00:35,165 --> 00:00:36,166 'cause it was just me. 19 00:00:36,296 --> 00:00:40,257 MTV was a massive culture shift. 20 00:00:40,387 --> 00:00:41,649 It changed everything. 21 00:00:43,260 --> 00:00:46,785 [amplifier feedback] 22 00:00:46,915 --> 00:00:49,831 [electric guitar strum] 23 00:00:54,097 --> 00:00:56,186 Growing up, when I discovered 24 00:00:56,316 --> 00:01:00,364 these incredible women making rock music, 25 00:01:00,494 --> 00:01:02,409 I mean, that's, like-- that's the dream. 26 00:01:04,759 --> 00:01:06,370 People would be like, "Whoa, 27 00:01:06,500 --> 00:01:07,806 look at that little gal with that big guitar," 28 00:01:07,936 --> 00:01:10,417 like a novelty. 29 00:01:10,548 --> 00:01:12,854 [Benatar] I wanted to break the boys' club. 30 00:01:12,985 --> 00:01:17,337 I wanted to break down that bullshit. 31 00:01:17,468 --> 00:01:19,078 [Khan] I said, "Let me tell you something. 32 00:01:19,209 --> 00:01:23,126 I'm going to be a star with or without you." 33 00:01:24,257 --> 00:01:25,302 [Jett] Growing up, I thought, 34 00:01:25,432 --> 00:01:26,477 "There's gotta be other girls 35 00:01:26,607 --> 00:01:28,522 that wanna play rock 'n' roll. 36 00:01:28,653 --> 00:01:30,350 I can't be the only one." 37 00:01:30,481 --> 00:01:31,743 [Twain] There's something very liberating 38 00:01:31,873 --> 00:01:36,791 about being able to take on a rock 'n' roll attitude 39 00:01:36,922 --> 00:01:39,838 and not have to abandon your femininity at the same time. 40 00:01:39,968 --> 00:01:42,797 [Crow] There were lots of obstacles along the way for me, 41 00:01:42,928 --> 00:01:44,582 but I knew the only person that could drive my ship 42 00:01:44,712 --> 00:01:47,019 that I felt I could trust was me. 43 00:01:47,150 --> 00:01:49,108 [Staples] I'm not a diva. 44 00:01:49,239 --> 00:01:50,979 I love people. I'm a people person. 45 00:01:51,110 --> 00:01:52,938 I'm just Mavis. 46 00:01:53,068 --> 00:01:54,418 Just Mavis. 47 00:01:54,548 --> 00:01:55,723 Yep. 48 00:02:02,077 --> 00:02:09,302 ♪♪♪ 49 00:02:16,353 --> 00:02:19,225 Mm-hmm. I still have those curtains. 50 00:02:19,356 --> 00:02:21,140 Well, I really like her. 51 00:02:21,271 --> 00:02:23,534 She had a lot of sass, so I really like her. 52 00:02:23,664 --> 00:02:24,839 [chuckles] 53 00:02:30,889 --> 00:02:33,108 [Pat Benetar's "Heartbreaker" plays] 54 00:02:33,239 --> 00:02:39,419 ♪♪♪ 55 00:02:39,550 --> 00:02:40,638 Love me some Pat. 56 00:02:40,768 --> 00:02:42,988 ["Heartbreaker" continues] 57 00:02:43,118 --> 00:02:45,599 ♪ Your love is like a tidal wave ♪ 58 00:02:45,730 --> 00:02:49,299 ♪ Spinning over my head 59 00:02:49,429 --> 00:02:51,388 I know every word to that song, yeah. 60 00:02:51,518 --> 00:02:52,867 Badass. [laughs] 61 00:02:54,956 --> 00:02:57,263 ♪ You're the right kind of sinner ♪ 62 00:02:57,394 --> 00:03:00,962 ♪ To release my inner fantasy 63 00:03:01,093 --> 00:03:03,182 I love the tone of voices. 64 00:03:03,313 --> 00:03:04,749 There's a clarity there, 65 00:03:04,879 --> 00:03:06,533 but at the same time, she's got that rasp. 66 00:03:06,664 --> 00:03:09,101 [Benatar holding note] 67 00:03:09,232 --> 00:03:10,407 -[lip syncs] - ♪ You're a heartbreaker 68 00:03:10,537 --> 00:03:12,060 ♪ Dream maker 69 00:03:12,191 --> 00:03:13,453 ♪ Love taker 70 00:03:13,584 --> 00:03:14,628 ♪ Don't you mess around with me ♪ 71 00:03:14,759 --> 00:03:16,369 ♪ You're a heartbreaker 72 00:03:16,500 --> 00:03:18,328 ♪ Dream maker 73 00:03:18,458 --> 00:03:20,373 ♪ Love taker Don't you mess around ♪ 74 00:03:20,504 --> 00:03:21,679 ♪ No, no, no 75 00:03:21,809 --> 00:03:23,376 [Benatar] People say, "Which ones 76 00:03:23,507 --> 00:03:24,464 will you never get tired of playing?" 77 00:03:24,595 --> 00:03:26,945 That's definitely number one. 78 00:03:27,075 --> 00:03:28,468 Never tired of it. 79 00:03:30,862 --> 00:03:33,734 Pat Benatar could really put it across. 80 00:03:33,865 --> 00:03:36,955 She sang rockin' songs, and yet she was 81 00:03:37,085 --> 00:03:39,871 this petite, cool-looking, 82 00:03:40,001 --> 00:03:42,439 take-no-prisoners kind of artist. 83 00:03:43,614 --> 00:03:45,572 Those songs, still, when you hear them, 84 00:03:45,703 --> 00:03:48,532 they are as fresh and as real as they were then. 85 00:03:48,662 --> 00:03:49,837 They transcend. 86 00:03:51,839 --> 00:03:54,581 From '80 to '84, I was in a cover band. 87 00:03:54,712 --> 00:03:55,843 I was the keyboard player, 88 00:03:55,974 --> 00:03:57,758 and then our front singer quit, 89 00:03:57,889 --> 00:04:00,413 and I got catapulted to the leader of the band, 90 00:04:00,544 --> 00:04:02,328 and it took me a while to get adjusted 91 00:04:02,459 --> 00:04:03,547 to being the front person, 92 00:04:03,677 --> 00:04:04,852 and at that time, 93 00:04:04,983 --> 00:04:06,898 the music that was out was Pat Benatar, 94 00:04:07,028 --> 00:04:09,335 and that was what I cut my teeth on 95 00:04:09,466 --> 00:04:11,119 as far as performing for audiences. 96 00:04:11,250 --> 00:04:15,341 And you stepped into the rock chick persona 97 00:04:15,472 --> 00:04:17,909 when you sang those songs. 98 00:04:18,039 --> 00:04:21,216 To sing Pat Benatar, you had to own it. 99 00:04:21,347 --> 00:04:22,479 You know, you had to step into it. 100 00:04:24,045 --> 00:04:25,395 She was a standout, 101 00:04:25,525 --> 00:04:28,398 and, you know, she's had quite a story. 102 00:04:31,662 --> 00:04:32,619 [Benatar] It just used to irritate me 103 00:04:32,750 --> 00:04:34,360 that so early in life, 104 00:04:34,491 --> 00:04:35,927 you had already been given 105 00:04:36,057 --> 00:04:38,364 a little, like, thing that you had to be 106 00:04:38,495 --> 00:04:39,974 because you were small, 107 00:04:40,105 --> 00:04:41,454 or a girl, or whatever, that kind of thing. 108 00:04:41,585 --> 00:04:43,500 So I'm sure that had a lot to do with it. 109 00:04:43,630 --> 00:04:44,762 So how did you react? 110 00:04:45,893 --> 00:04:47,982 Um, usually punching. [laughs] 111 00:04:51,725 --> 00:04:54,511 [Benatar] My family were working-class people. 112 00:04:54,641 --> 00:04:57,427 We were just kind of scraping by all the time. 113 00:04:57,557 --> 00:04:58,689 My mother had to work as well, 114 00:04:58,819 --> 00:05:01,996 and I saw women wallpapering, 115 00:05:02,127 --> 00:05:03,302 mowing the lawn, 116 00:05:03,433 --> 00:05:04,477 fixing the plumbing, 117 00:05:04,608 --> 00:05:07,001 you know, doing every single thing. 118 00:05:07,132 --> 00:05:10,309 My mother's paycheck counted in our house. 119 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:11,484 The biggest shock of all 120 00:05:11,615 --> 00:05:13,356 was when I got out in the real world 121 00:05:13,486 --> 00:05:15,314 and somebody was telling me I couldn't do something 122 00:05:15,445 --> 00:05:17,142 because I was a girl, 123 00:05:17,272 --> 00:05:19,710 and I was like, "What are you talking about?" 124 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:20,928 You know what I mean? 125 00:05:21,059 --> 00:05:21,755 Like, what are we talking about here? 126 00:05:21,886 --> 00:05:23,017 That's not my experience. 127 00:05:24,932 --> 00:05:25,890 In the '70s, 128 00:05:26,020 --> 00:05:27,587 I left New York 129 00:05:27,718 --> 00:05:29,415 and I was working in a bank. 130 00:05:29,546 --> 00:05:31,025 I was planning on going to school, 131 00:05:31,156 --> 00:05:33,201 but I joined a band. I just joined a band, 132 00:05:33,332 --> 00:05:34,594 and, you know, it was, like, a lounge band. 133 00:05:34,725 --> 00:05:37,118 We were, you know, singing at the Holiday Inn 134 00:05:37,249 --> 00:05:39,251 at the airport in Richmond, Virginia. 135 00:05:40,339 --> 00:05:41,601 You know, I just thought that, "This isn't enough." 136 00:05:41,732 --> 00:05:42,820 Like, if you're going to do this, 137 00:05:42,950 --> 00:05:45,083 you need to really go back to New York. 138 00:05:46,171 --> 00:05:49,348 And I just decided one day to go back to New York 139 00:05:49,479 --> 00:05:52,046 and try singing professionally, so I went, um... 140 00:05:52,177 --> 00:05:54,005 I went to this place called Catch a Rising Star. 141 00:05:54,135 --> 00:05:56,790 It's a comedy club in New York, 142 00:05:56,921 --> 00:05:58,401 and I went for an audition, 143 00:05:58,531 --> 00:05:59,271 and I just started singing there, 144 00:05:59,402 --> 00:06:00,533 and then, I don't know, 145 00:06:00,664 --> 00:06:03,144 it just started to happen after that. 146 00:06:04,189 --> 00:06:07,801 I sang "Rock-a-bye Your Baby with a Dixie Melody," 147 00:06:07,932 --> 00:06:09,499 and I was so scared that when I finished, 148 00:06:09,629 --> 00:06:12,545 I sang the last notes, you know, with my eyes closed like that, 149 00:06:12,676 --> 00:06:16,593 and people were screaming, and I was like, 150 00:06:16,723 --> 00:06:17,768 you know, one eye, like, 151 00:06:17,898 --> 00:06:19,987 "What's happening here?" you know. 152 00:06:20,118 --> 00:06:21,815 And the guy who owned the club, 153 00:06:21,946 --> 00:06:23,469 he, like, swung the door open, 154 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,863 and he said, "Come here," then he said, 155 00:06:25,993 --> 00:06:26,820 "How come I don't know who you are?" 156 00:06:26,951 --> 00:06:28,256 I go, "'Cause I just got here," 157 00:06:28,387 --> 00:06:30,041 and that was the beginning of everything. 158 00:06:31,782 --> 00:06:33,827 The minute that I met Neil, 159 00:06:33,958 --> 00:06:37,483 it was just insanity. [laughs] 160 00:06:37,614 --> 00:06:40,312 The minute he played one note, I knew that was it. 161 00:06:40,443 --> 00:06:43,794 I knew that was exactly what I was hearing in my head. 162 00:06:43,924 --> 00:06:45,491 And we just went to work, you know. 163 00:06:45,622 --> 00:06:47,058 We were players first, 164 00:06:47,188 --> 00:06:49,887 before we were ever together as lovers, 165 00:06:50,017 --> 00:06:52,455 and, uh, 40 years married now. 166 00:06:54,195 --> 00:06:56,328 It was Halloween, and I dressed up 167 00:06:56,459 --> 00:06:59,287 from this ridiculous movie called Cat-Women of the Moon. 168 00:06:59,418 --> 00:07:01,202 So I put, like, on this leotard and these tights 169 00:07:01,333 --> 00:07:03,509 and these little short boots, so we went, 170 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,120 "Let's all go back up to Catch and perform in our costumes." 171 00:07:06,251 --> 00:07:07,687 I'm like, "Okay." 172 00:07:07,818 --> 00:07:09,689 I did the same songs that I had been doing 173 00:07:09,820 --> 00:07:11,561 for, you know, six, seven months. 174 00:07:11,691 --> 00:07:12,953 Something changed. 175 00:07:13,084 --> 00:07:14,868 People went nuts. Like, crazy nuts. 176 00:07:14,999 --> 00:07:16,914 ♪♪♪ 177 00:07:17,044 --> 00:07:18,089 It did something for them, 178 00:07:18,219 --> 00:07:19,307 but it also did something for me. 179 00:07:19,438 --> 00:07:21,658 I was playing a part-- 180 00:07:21,788 --> 00:07:23,703 this other alter ego. 181 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,141 It felt like armor. 182 00:07:27,272 --> 00:07:29,622 It made me feel like, 183 00:07:29,753 --> 00:07:31,015 you know, that. 184 00:07:31,145 --> 00:07:33,234 My way, my terms. 185 00:07:33,365 --> 00:07:35,933 I'm showing you my body because I want to. 186 00:07:36,063 --> 00:07:38,892 And it worked for a really long time, 187 00:07:39,023 --> 00:07:40,894 until they wanted it like that, 188 00:07:41,025 --> 00:07:42,330 and then when they wanted it like that, 189 00:07:42,461 --> 00:07:43,680 I was like, "Mm-mm. 190 00:07:43,810 --> 00:07:44,768 My thing, not yours." 191 00:07:44,898 --> 00:07:47,074 That was it. Done. No more. 192 00:07:49,424 --> 00:07:51,514 I threw many record company executives 193 00:07:51,644 --> 00:07:53,428 out of our house-- 194 00:07:53,559 --> 00:07:56,388 literally out the door-- for being assholes. 195 00:07:56,519 --> 00:08:00,566 I knew that I had something they wanted really badly, 196 00:08:00,697 --> 00:08:01,828 and if they were going to get it, 197 00:08:01,959 --> 00:08:03,351 they were going to have to do it-- 198 00:08:03,482 --> 00:08:05,832 at least halfway my way. 199 00:08:08,269 --> 00:08:10,315 I wanted to break the boys' club. 200 00:08:10,445 --> 00:08:11,795 I did. 201 00:08:11,925 --> 00:08:14,537 I wanted to break down that bullshit. 202 00:08:15,581 --> 00:08:18,018 ♪♪♪ 203 00:08:18,149 --> 00:08:20,107 We had no idea what was about to happen 204 00:08:20,238 --> 00:08:21,848 because of MTV. 205 00:08:21,979 --> 00:08:23,502 It was a tremendous culture shift. 206 00:08:23,633 --> 00:08:25,548 Up until that point, 207 00:08:25,678 --> 00:08:27,245 people could see you in concert, 208 00:08:27,375 --> 00:08:29,595 and they could see you on Don Kirshner's Rock Concert, 209 00:08:29,726 --> 00:08:30,944 and Midnight Special. 210 00:08:31,075 --> 00:08:32,772 That was it. 211 00:08:32,903 --> 00:08:34,818 I was from a really small town, 212 00:08:34,948 --> 00:08:37,560 and I would go to Blightmore Drugs, 213 00:08:37,690 --> 00:08:38,822 and all of us kids, on Saturdays, 214 00:08:38,952 --> 00:08:40,911 would sit there by this big magazine rack, 215 00:08:41,041 --> 00:08:44,175 and look at all these magazines, 216 00:08:44,305 --> 00:08:45,393 like Rolling Stoneand Creem 217 00:08:45,524 --> 00:08:47,657 and Teen Beatand 16, 218 00:08:47,787 --> 00:08:50,268 and what we thought of as rock 'n' roll 219 00:08:50,398 --> 00:08:51,399 were in those pictures. 220 00:08:51,530 --> 00:08:52,400 We didn't have MTV. 221 00:08:52,531 --> 00:08:53,401 We didn't have cable. 222 00:08:53,532 --> 00:08:55,882 We didn't have tabloids. 223 00:08:56,013 --> 00:08:56,796 There was none of that, 224 00:08:56,927 --> 00:08:58,842 so it was very imagined 225 00:08:58,972 --> 00:09:03,194 by these incredible portrayals of who they were in magazines. 226 00:09:03,324 --> 00:09:04,804 ♪♪♪ 227 00:09:04,935 --> 00:09:06,153 [Benatar] We became the second video 228 00:09:06,284 --> 00:09:07,677 ever played on MTV. 229 00:09:07,807 --> 00:09:10,027 I'm the first female to ever be on MTV, 230 00:09:10,157 --> 00:09:11,942 and Neil was the first guitar player 231 00:09:12,072 --> 00:09:13,639 to ever play on MTV. 232 00:09:13,770 --> 00:09:16,599 The first day that it was on, we all sat glued to the TV. 233 00:09:16,729 --> 00:09:19,732 We're sitting on the, you know, horrible bedspread 234 00:09:19,863 --> 00:09:21,255 that's in that crappy motel that we're in, 235 00:09:21,386 --> 00:09:22,648 you know what I mean? 236 00:09:22,779 --> 00:09:24,171 Watching the TV, because they had cable, 237 00:09:25,564 --> 00:09:27,522 And after 10 days 238 00:09:27,653 --> 00:09:31,614 of MTV being open and on the air, 239 00:09:31,744 --> 00:09:32,919 couldn't go anywhere. 240 00:09:35,922 --> 00:09:37,358 We were in Virginia Beach, 241 00:09:37,489 --> 00:09:40,274 and the record was just flying up the charts 242 00:09:40,405 --> 00:09:42,059 and going crazy. 243 00:09:42,189 --> 00:09:43,974 We were pulling up to a club, 244 00:09:44,104 --> 00:09:45,453 and I'm looking out the window, 245 00:09:45,584 --> 00:09:47,978 and I see cops everywhere, barricades up. 246 00:09:48,108 --> 00:09:49,588 People are running all over, screaming, yelling. 247 00:09:49,719 --> 00:09:51,111 I'm thinking, "Oh, my God, 248 00:09:51,242 --> 00:09:52,330 there must have been a terrible accident. 249 00:09:52,460 --> 00:09:54,506 What happened?" 250 00:09:54,637 --> 00:09:57,552 Well, they oversold the club by a thousand people, 251 00:09:57,683 --> 00:10:00,164 and they were throwing things through the windows of the club, 252 00:10:00,294 --> 00:10:01,426 and people were going crazy 253 00:10:01,556 --> 00:10:03,123 because they wouldn't let them go in. 254 00:10:03,254 --> 00:10:04,690 It was insane. 255 00:10:04,821 --> 00:10:06,257 MTV changed everything. 256 00:10:07,911 --> 00:10:09,434 It was nonstop. 257 00:10:09,564 --> 00:10:12,350 The American living room, all day, all night. 258 00:10:13,394 --> 00:10:14,918 I learned how to play the guitar from MTV. 259 00:10:15,048 --> 00:10:16,484 I used to watch the guitar players. 260 00:10:16,615 --> 00:10:18,486 I used to watch where they put their fingers, 261 00:10:18,617 --> 00:10:19,705 and I was obsessed with MTV. 262 00:10:19,836 --> 00:10:21,533 I used to run home from school 263 00:10:21,664 --> 00:10:23,361 and just sit there for hours and watch these videos. 264 00:10:24,623 --> 00:10:26,669 In the big MTV era, 265 00:10:26,799 --> 00:10:29,628 when you had people like Cyndi Lauper and Madonna, 266 00:10:29,759 --> 00:10:32,109 they came out of this punk tradition 267 00:10:32,239 --> 00:10:34,546 that was very New York-centric, 268 00:10:34,677 --> 00:10:36,983 that was very loud and brash. 269 00:10:37,114 --> 00:10:39,072 [interviewer] How do you feel about being chosen 270 00:10:39,203 --> 00:10:40,857 as one of Ms.magazine's Women of the Year? 271 00:10:40,987 --> 00:10:44,251 Um, I'm flattered. I really am. 272 00:10:44,382 --> 00:10:45,862 Um, I thought it was a slumber party, 273 00:10:45,992 --> 00:10:47,820 so I wore some pajamas. 274 00:10:50,344 --> 00:10:54,261 ♪ All the men come in these places ♪ 275 00:10:54,392 --> 00:10:58,788 ♪ And the men are all the same 276 00:10:58,918 --> 00:11:02,879 ♪ You don't look at their faces ♪ 277 00:11:03,009 --> 00:11:06,273 ♪ And you don't ask their name 278 00:11:06,404 --> 00:11:08,711 ♪ I'm your private dancer 279 00:11:08,841 --> 00:11:11,017 ♪ A dancer for money 280 00:11:11,148 --> 00:11:14,978 ♪ I'll do what you want me to do ♪ 281 00:11:15,108 --> 00:11:17,458 ♪ I'm your private dancer 282 00:11:17,589 --> 00:11:19,722 ♪ A dancer for money 283 00:11:19,852 --> 00:11:23,595 ♪ And any old music will do 284 00:11:23,726 --> 00:11:25,989 ♪ I'm your private dancer 285 00:11:26,119 --> 00:11:28,208 ♪ Dancer for money... 286 00:11:28,339 --> 00:11:31,168 Tina Turner becomes a full-on rock star, 287 00:11:31,298 --> 00:11:33,387 and she does it by creating a new sound, 288 00:11:33,518 --> 00:11:36,564 but also through this look that she adopts, 289 00:11:36,695 --> 00:11:39,002 which is the archetypal look of the mid-'80s 290 00:11:39,132 --> 00:11:40,307 for women in rock. 291 00:11:40,438 --> 00:11:42,353 So she has the wig 292 00:11:42,483 --> 00:11:45,965 that is just her reclaiming everything 293 00:11:46,096 --> 00:11:48,881 that all those '60s rock dudes took from her. 294 00:11:49,012 --> 00:11:52,189 It's more Rod Stewart than Rod Stewart ever could be. 295 00:11:52,319 --> 00:11:54,452 This is a chic designer look. 296 00:11:54,582 --> 00:11:56,193 She's wearing leather, 297 00:11:56,323 --> 00:11:58,630 but it's classy leather, you know? 298 00:11:58,761 --> 00:12:00,284 It's like North Beach leather. 299 00:12:00,414 --> 00:12:02,068 The spiked heels. 300 00:12:02,199 --> 00:12:04,027 This is, like, high fashion. 301 00:12:04,157 --> 00:12:05,115 We look at it now, 302 00:12:05,245 --> 00:12:07,117 and it just looks excessive to us, 303 00:12:07,247 --> 00:12:10,033 but at the time, this was money. 304 00:12:10,163 --> 00:12:11,817 This was power. 305 00:12:13,210 --> 00:12:15,603 This was everything rock could buy. 306 00:12:15,734 --> 00:12:17,910 They were women really asserting themselves 307 00:12:18,041 --> 00:12:20,652 in big ways. 308 00:12:20,783 --> 00:12:22,959 Really distinct personas, 309 00:12:23,089 --> 00:12:24,961 and distinct fashion, 310 00:12:25,091 --> 00:12:27,267 and signature outfits, 311 00:12:27,398 --> 00:12:28,529 and hairdos, 312 00:12:28,660 --> 00:12:31,445 and, you know, crucifixes. 313 00:12:31,576 --> 00:12:33,447 ♪♪♪ 314 00:12:33,578 --> 00:12:37,669 Madonna was a video star as much as a music star. 315 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:39,497 She was creating fantasies. 316 00:12:39,627 --> 00:12:43,283 She was projecting an eroticism that worked on a screen, 317 00:12:43,414 --> 00:12:44,937 and that's what people needed in the '80s. 318 00:12:47,418 --> 00:12:49,159 [interviewer] Now, with the single "Like a Virgin," 319 00:12:49,289 --> 00:12:51,422 how did this song come about and why? 320 00:12:51,552 --> 00:12:54,468 Well, I was laying in my bed one night, and... 321 00:12:56,601 --> 00:12:59,473 Well, I mean, it takes one to know one, doesn't it? 322 00:12:59,604 --> 00:13:01,519 - Um... - [laughs] 323 00:13:01,649 --> 00:13:03,129 [laughs] Probably. 324 00:13:05,044 --> 00:13:06,132 People started talking about her, 325 00:13:06,263 --> 00:13:07,699 and writing about her, 326 00:13:07,830 --> 00:13:10,658 and the word "empowered" arrives. 327 00:13:10,789 --> 00:13:13,661 She's making herself into a sexual object, 328 00:13:13,792 --> 00:13:15,141 so that's okay. 329 00:13:15,272 --> 00:13:17,230 It was kind of an interesting moment, 330 00:13:17,361 --> 00:13:20,320 and it definitely changed things from there on. 331 00:13:21,974 --> 00:13:23,933 Everybody knew in the business 332 00:13:24,063 --> 00:13:25,978 that Madonna was calling the shots. 333 00:13:26,109 --> 00:13:29,199 She was in control of her career. 334 00:13:30,461 --> 00:13:35,031 Madonna projected just absolute self-possession. 335 00:13:35,161 --> 00:13:37,511 She was ultra-feminine. 336 00:13:37,642 --> 00:13:42,299 She had that alpha attitude associated with men, 337 00:13:42,429 --> 00:13:45,650 and she was not going to be anybody's good girl 338 00:13:45,780 --> 00:13:47,521 or anybody's victim. 339 00:13:47,652 --> 00:13:50,046 Nobody was quite as bold 340 00:13:50,176 --> 00:13:52,396 in the way that Madonna was bold. 341 00:14:05,322 --> 00:14:10,022 Berklee had a summer session that anyone could go to. 342 00:14:10,153 --> 00:14:11,632 At that point, it was a jazz school. 343 00:14:11,763 --> 00:14:13,939 There were, like, three people who were into punk and new wave, 344 00:14:14,070 --> 00:14:15,767 so we basically formed a band. 345 00:14:16,855 --> 00:14:18,813 And so that was the first band that I was ever in. 346 00:14:18,944 --> 00:14:20,206 It was called The Young Snakes. 347 00:14:21,425 --> 00:14:22,817 The songs we wrote were just, 348 00:14:22,948 --> 00:14:27,387 you know, atonal, angular, kind of ridiculous. 349 00:14:28,432 --> 00:14:29,912 I was feeling kind of hemmed in by, like, 350 00:14:30,042 --> 00:14:33,002 having to keep it angular and weird all the time, 351 00:14:33,132 --> 00:14:37,615 so the idea of starting a band that was more song-based 352 00:14:37,745 --> 00:14:39,225 became really appealing, 353 00:14:39,356 --> 00:14:41,401 and that was 'Til Tuesday. 354 00:14:42,881 --> 00:14:44,535 At that point, you know, 355 00:14:44,665 --> 00:14:47,233 the holy grail was, like, to get signed. 356 00:14:47,364 --> 00:14:51,759 We had a really arresting '80s new wave look, 357 00:14:51,890 --> 00:14:54,545 and the record company was like, 358 00:14:54,675 --> 00:14:56,416 "We're getting on this new wave train!" 359 00:14:58,244 --> 00:14:59,898 But they didn't understand it. 360 00:15:00,029 --> 00:15:03,989 You know, they were sort of used to a sexy '70s look. 361 00:15:05,164 --> 00:15:07,558 So I would get, like, a lot of, 362 00:15:07,688 --> 00:15:08,776 I'm not going to say "advice"-- 363 00:15:08,907 --> 00:15:11,823 "criticism" is more the word-- 364 00:15:11,954 --> 00:15:14,521 and then we'd be subjected to 365 00:15:14,652 --> 00:15:17,568 doofuses coming down to the studio 366 00:15:17,698 --> 00:15:18,873 and making comments. 367 00:15:19,004 --> 00:15:20,266 They don't know what they're talking about. 368 00:15:21,528 --> 00:15:24,053 I just could not understand 369 00:15:24,183 --> 00:15:25,750 other people putting their two cents in 370 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:27,970 who were not either musicians, 371 00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:29,797 or producers, or... 372 00:15:29,928 --> 00:15:31,408 music fans, even, 373 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:34,498 And to have that, like, 374 00:15:34,628 --> 00:15:36,152 "the madmen are running the asylum" feeling 375 00:15:36,282 --> 00:15:37,327 all the time, 376 00:15:37,457 --> 00:15:39,024 or just that, like, 377 00:15:39,155 --> 00:15:40,808 you're being told "no" 378 00:15:40,939 --> 00:15:43,420 by people who don't know what they're fucking doing, 379 00:15:43,550 --> 00:15:45,248 and who were trying to act 380 00:15:45,378 --> 00:15:47,728 like their jobs are some mystical secret, 381 00:15:47,859 --> 00:15:49,121 was just very frustrating. 382 00:15:51,123 --> 00:15:52,472 I got a lot of pushback. 383 00:15:52,603 --> 00:15:54,779 You know, they just did not expect me to say "no" 384 00:15:54,909 --> 00:15:56,694 to anything. 385 00:15:56,824 --> 00:15:58,652 That thing of, like, 386 00:15:58,783 --> 00:16:00,828 not wanting to be seen as difficult to work with, 387 00:16:00,959 --> 00:16:04,571 is really, you know, like, really powerful. 388 00:16:04,702 --> 00:16:06,878 So much of our lives, we don't really get listened to 389 00:16:07,009 --> 00:16:09,011 and acknowledged for our thoughts and our feelings, 390 00:16:09,141 --> 00:16:11,187 and here were all these people, 391 00:16:11,317 --> 00:16:14,407 and they want to hear you get real with them, 392 00:16:14,538 --> 00:16:19,151 and the business itself gets between you and the fans. 393 00:16:19,282 --> 00:16:20,631 The music business and the marketing people 394 00:16:20,761 --> 00:16:23,460 come in the way and say, "Oh, wait, stop. 395 00:16:23,590 --> 00:16:25,940 We can't have her out there representing our label," 396 00:16:26,071 --> 00:16:27,464 or whatever. "That won't sell." 397 00:16:27,594 --> 00:16:31,250 ♪♪♪ 398 00:16:31,381 --> 00:16:32,469 When MTV started, 399 00:16:32,599 --> 00:16:33,731 I felt almost like there were bands 400 00:16:33,861 --> 00:16:36,038 that were playing to MTV. 401 00:16:36,168 --> 00:16:38,736 They were playing up, like, more of the visuals. 402 00:16:38,866 --> 00:16:41,782 And it wasn't just about, like, the live performance. 403 00:16:43,001 --> 00:16:44,481 Back in the day, 404 00:16:44,611 --> 00:16:48,093 you know, the idea of videos was they're movies. 405 00:16:48,224 --> 00:16:49,355 They're three-minute movies. 406 00:16:49,486 --> 00:16:51,096 So you tell a story. 407 00:16:51,227 --> 00:16:52,315 You have a narrative story. 408 00:16:52,445 --> 00:16:54,882 ♪ Hush, hush 409 00:16:55,013 --> 00:16:56,884 ♪ Keep it down now 410 00:16:57,015 --> 00:16:58,843 ♪ Voices carry 411 00:16:58,973 --> 00:17:01,628 ♪♪♪ 412 00:17:01,759 --> 00:17:03,761 ♪ Hush, hush 413 00:17:03,891 --> 00:17:06,024 ♪ Keep it down now 414 00:17:06,155 --> 00:17:08,722 ♪ Voices carry 415 00:17:08,853 --> 00:17:09,767 ♪ Ah, ah 416 00:17:11,073 --> 00:17:12,335 I would not have cast that guy. 417 00:17:12,465 --> 00:17:14,206 Like, when they came up with that guy, 418 00:17:14,337 --> 00:17:15,947 I was like, "What? 419 00:17:16,078 --> 00:17:17,688 Are you out of your mind?" 420 00:17:17,818 --> 00:17:19,255 Like, he was very beefy. 421 00:17:21,039 --> 00:17:22,345 What happened? 422 00:17:22,475 --> 00:17:24,434 Practice run late? 423 00:17:24,564 --> 00:17:26,305 You know, this little hobby of yours 424 00:17:26,436 --> 00:17:27,959 has gone too far. 425 00:17:29,221 --> 00:17:32,050 Why can't you for once do something for me? 426 00:17:32,181 --> 00:17:33,573 Like what? 427 00:17:36,837 --> 00:17:37,925 ♪ Oh! 428 00:17:38,056 --> 00:17:41,146 ♪ He wants me 429 00:17:41,277 --> 00:17:42,713 ♪ But only part of the time 430 00:17:42,843 --> 00:17:44,715 You know, that video's kind of a perfect example 431 00:17:44,845 --> 00:17:47,935 of stuff I did not have control over. 432 00:17:48,066 --> 00:17:49,894 ♪ He wants me 433 00:17:50,024 --> 00:17:51,504 Classic standard things, like, 434 00:17:51,635 --> 00:17:54,725 if you're a band that's fronted by a woman, 435 00:17:54,855 --> 00:17:57,728 the record cover is a picture of the woman. 436 00:17:59,512 --> 00:18:03,125 There's no interesting art piece painting. 437 00:18:03,255 --> 00:18:04,474 It's kind of understood, like, well, 438 00:18:04,604 --> 00:18:06,345 the whole point of having a woman in the band 439 00:18:06,476 --> 00:18:08,391 is, like, you know, that you can look at her. 440 00:18:09,870 --> 00:18:13,004 When we got signed, you're in a room. 441 00:18:13,135 --> 00:18:15,398 There are a lot of men in suits 442 00:18:15,528 --> 00:18:16,703 looking at you, 443 00:18:16,834 --> 00:18:19,141 sort of sizing you up in a way, 444 00:18:19,271 --> 00:18:21,099 and it was just this feeling of, 445 00:18:21,230 --> 00:18:23,319 "Is there something expected 446 00:18:23,449 --> 00:18:26,148 that we have to be glamorous, 447 00:18:26,278 --> 00:18:29,586 or look a certain way? 448 00:18:29,716 --> 00:18:31,849 Or is there an expectation 449 00:18:31,979 --> 00:18:36,767 that any sexuality is something that we'll be selling?" 450 00:18:37,942 --> 00:18:39,944 You're talking about a time in the music industry, 451 00:18:40,074 --> 00:18:43,252 and this is still kind of how it is-- 452 00:18:43,382 --> 00:18:44,992 it's basically run by men. 453 00:18:45,123 --> 00:18:47,604 You know, the heads of the record labels are men. 454 00:18:47,734 --> 00:18:50,041 The radio programmers are men. 455 00:18:50,172 --> 00:18:52,130 The marketing heads are men. 456 00:18:52,261 --> 00:18:53,827 The agents are men. 457 00:18:53,958 --> 00:18:55,351 The promoters are men. 458 00:18:55,481 --> 00:18:57,179 So when I was coming up, 459 00:18:57,309 --> 00:18:58,832 I was constantly working 460 00:18:58,963 --> 00:19:01,052 against what people 461 00:19:01,183 --> 00:19:03,185 that were making the decisions for my career 462 00:19:03,315 --> 00:19:05,317 perceived me to be, 463 00:19:05,448 --> 00:19:07,798 and how they could make that lucrative. 464 00:19:10,017 --> 00:19:12,716 When you first sign, they try everything, literally, 465 00:19:12,846 --> 00:19:14,152 because they know they can. 466 00:19:14,283 --> 00:19:15,414 It never stopped. 467 00:19:15,545 --> 00:19:17,155 It was just a continual thing. 468 00:19:17,286 --> 00:19:19,853 It was like, "Can't you wear this?" 469 00:19:19,984 --> 00:19:23,640 Or, "You know, I'd like it if you put this makeup on." 470 00:19:23,770 --> 00:19:24,771 Why are you talking to me about this? 471 00:19:24,902 --> 00:19:26,033 You're not talking to him about this. 472 00:19:26,164 --> 00:19:27,426 Like, why don't you mind your business? 473 00:19:29,559 --> 00:19:31,648 There was a lot of sexualization of women 474 00:19:31,778 --> 00:19:35,042 in the '80s, and sort of sexploitation. 475 00:19:35,173 --> 00:19:37,306 It seemed like women were expected to, you know, 476 00:19:37,436 --> 00:19:39,699 pump up the volume, pump up the breasts, 477 00:19:39,830 --> 00:19:42,920 pump up the lips, you know, pump up the hair. 478 00:19:43,050 --> 00:19:44,748 It was fun, but I noticed 479 00:19:44,878 --> 00:19:48,317 that we started out being not really sexualized, 480 00:19:48,447 --> 00:19:51,407 and then as the '80s crept on, and MTV, 481 00:19:51,537 --> 00:19:53,496 we started wearing much more sexy outfits. 482 00:19:55,585 --> 00:19:57,064 It was, like, such a turnaround 483 00:19:57,195 --> 00:19:58,501 from where we'd started, 484 00:19:58,631 --> 00:20:00,546 because, suddenly, 485 00:20:00,677 --> 00:20:03,332 everything that mattered was about the image, 486 00:20:03,462 --> 00:20:04,942 and if somebody was overweight, 487 00:20:05,072 --> 00:20:07,249 or had imperfect skin, 488 00:20:07,379 --> 00:20:08,946 or you didn't have enough hair, 489 00:20:09,076 --> 00:20:10,469 that all had to be fixed, you know. 490 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,081 So for Heart, me and Ann, 491 00:20:14,212 --> 00:20:15,561 we'd always felt like 492 00:20:15,692 --> 00:20:19,478 we could be accepted for exactly who we are, 493 00:20:19,609 --> 00:20:22,786 and how we look, and how we feel, 494 00:20:22,916 --> 00:20:26,398 but MTV took that away from us in a lot of ways. 495 00:20:27,573 --> 00:20:30,707 But it's really what they don't tell you 496 00:20:30,837 --> 00:20:32,883 that comes back to bite you later. 497 00:20:34,624 --> 00:20:37,496 Record companies and MTV, 498 00:20:37,627 --> 00:20:40,020 they couldn't come up with content fast enough, 499 00:20:40,151 --> 00:20:42,588 so it became super spendy. 500 00:20:43,894 --> 00:20:47,114 The record companies make the bands responsible 501 00:20:47,245 --> 00:20:50,553 for a really large portion of their promotion budget. 502 00:20:50,683 --> 00:20:52,642 You were just digging a hole for yourself 503 00:20:52,772 --> 00:20:57,516 that was $400,000 deeper than the day before. 504 00:20:57,647 --> 00:20:59,475 And these video shoots would take one day, 505 00:20:59,605 --> 00:21:01,999 cost $400,000 to $800,000, 506 00:21:02,129 --> 00:21:04,349 which was sometimes more than you'd spend on your album, 507 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,133 and then you'd find out that you were responsible. 508 00:21:06,264 --> 00:21:08,658 It was recoupable against your royalties. 509 00:21:08,788 --> 00:21:11,661 That's one of the ways that MTV really just 510 00:21:11,791 --> 00:21:14,185 put the screws to the artists, 511 00:21:14,316 --> 00:21:16,622 But then, you know, if your video did get played, 512 00:21:16,753 --> 00:21:18,058 then it was great promotion. 513 00:21:19,756 --> 00:21:22,411 To be on MTV was everything. 514 00:21:22,541 --> 00:21:24,587 It was everything, and it meant, again, 515 00:21:24,717 --> 00:21:26,719 that you made it if you were able to get on MTV. 516 00:21:28,634 --> 00:21:30,157 When I first started playing, 517 00:21:30,288 --> 00:21:32,203 my dad was in Santana, 518 00:21:32,334 --> 00:21:34,074 and so I knew all the songs. 519 00:21:34,205 --> 00:21:37,034 My dad played every single day in the home, 520 00:21:37,164 --> 00:21:39,297 practicing the vinyl, 521 00:21:39,428 --> 00:21:42,648 and we hardly turned on the television at all, 522 00:21:42,779 --> 00:21:43,649 And then he would have jam sessions 523 00:21:43,780 --> 00:21:45,782 with other percussionists. 524 00:21:45,912 --> 00:21:48,480 He would have his band rehearse in the living room. 525 00:21:49,916 --> 00:21:51,657 I never took a drum lesson. 526 00:21:51,788 --> 00:21:56,401 I never practiced a day in my life, ever. 527 00:21:56,532 --> 00:21:59,883 My practicing was watching him play, 528 00:22:00,013 --> 00:22:02,581 and he noticed that I loved playing percussion. 529 00:22:04,366 --> 00:22:07,238 My parents never said because you're a young girl, 530 00:22:07,369 --> 00:22:09,153 or you're a young lady, 531 00:22:09,283 --> 00:22:11,416 that you're not supposed to play percussion. 532 00:22:11,547 --> 00:22:13,157 That was never mentioned in my home. 533 00:22:17,944 --> 00:22:20,251 I loved playing with different people. 534 00:22:20,382 --> 00:22:21,774 I loved being a part of a team, 535 00:22:21,905 --> 00:22:24,821 a part of a group as a percussionist, 536 00:22:24,951 --> 00:22:26,518 whether it be Marvin Gaye, 537 00:22:26,649 --> 00:22:28,215 Diana Ross, 538 00:22:28,346 --> 00:22:29,956 or Lionel Richie, 539 00:22:30,087 --> 00:22:32,568 you know, all the different people I've performed with. 540 00:22:32,698 --> 00:22:33,960 At one point, 541 00:22:34,091 --> 00:22:35,222 I was playing with Lionel Richie, 542 00:22:35,353 --> 00:22:37,442 and Prince was coming out to see the shows, 543 00:22:37,573 --> 00:22:39,444 and he just said, "Aren't you tired of, 544 00:22:39,575 --> 00:22:41,272 you know, playing behind other artists?" 545 00:22:42,491 --> 00:22:45,537 Prince would take on these women protégés. 546 00:22:45,668 --> 00:22:48,888 They all had great beauty, great style, 547 00:22:49,019 --> 00:22:51,587 but they were also incredible musicians, 548 00:22:51,717 --> 00:22:53,371 incredible songwriters. 549 00:22:53,502 --> 00:22:55,242 Someone like Susanna Hoffs, 550 00:22:55,373 --> 00:22:57,897 who had a vocal tone that no one else could imitate. 551 00:22:59,638 --> 00:23:02,075 The week that I heard "When Doves Cry" 552 00:23:02,206 --> 00:23:03,512 was the same week 553 00:23:03,642 --> 00:23:04,991 that I got word 554 00:23:05,122 --> 00:23:08,342 that Prince had a song for The Bangles, 555 00:23:08,473 --> 00:23:11,824 and would I go to Sunset Sound, the studio, and pick it up? 556 00:23:13,435 --> 00:23:16,176 I still have the very cassette that I got. 557 00:23:16,307 --> 00:23:17,569 We all hovered around a cassette player 558 00:23:17,700 --> 00:23:19,745 to play the song. 559 00:23:19,876 --> 00:23:21,573 It was "Manic Monday". 560 00:23:21,704 --> 00:23:23,488 You know, it felt like I slipped my foot 561 00:23:23,619 --> 00:23:24,489 into the glass slipper. 562 00:23:24,620 --> 00:23:26,317 ["Manic Monday" plays] 563 00:23:26,448 --> 00:23:27,927 ♪ I was kissing Valentino 564 00:23:28,058 --> 00:23:31,017 ♪ By a crystal-blue Italian stream ♪ 565 00:23:31,148 --> 00:23:33,890 ♪♪♪ 566 00:23:34,020 --> 00:23:35,674 ♪ But I can't be late 567 00:23:35,805 --> 00:23:38,895 ♪ So then I guess I just won't get paid ♪ 568 00:23:39,025 --> 00:23:40,897 He wrote so beautifully for women. 569 00:23:41,027 --> 00:23:42,899 You know, I mean, he just got it. 570 00:23:43,029 --> 00:23:44,074 ♪ These are the days... 571 00:23:44,204 --> 00:23:45,467 And he loved to give these songs away. 572 00:23:45,597 --> 00:23:46,468 He loved doing this. 573 00:23:46,598 --> 00:23:48,295 It was a generous act. 574 00:23:48,426 --> 00:23:51,124 ♪ It's just another manic Monday ♪ 575 00:23:51,255 --> 00:23:52,909 ♪ Oh, whoa 576 00:23:53,039 --> 00:23:55,302 ♪ I wish it were Sunday 577 00:23:55,433 --> 00:23:56,869 ♪ Oh, whoa 578 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,132 ♪ That's my fun day 579 00:23:59,263 --> 00:24:00,917 ♪ Oh, whoa 580 00:24:01,047 --> 00:24:02,745 ♪ My I-don't-have-to-run day 581 00:24:02,875 --> 00:24:04,311 ♪ Oh, whoa 582 00:24:04,442 --> 00:24:07,010 ♪ It's just another manic Monday ♪ 583 00:24:07,140 --> 00:24:08,707 ♪ Oh, whoa 584 00:24:08,838 --> 00:24:10,709 ♪ I wish it were Sunday 585 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:12,668 ♪ Oh, whoa 586 00:24:12,798 --> 00:24:16,149 ♪ Because that's my fun day 587 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,805 ♪ It's just another manic Monday ♪ 588 00:24:19,936 --> 00:24:21,720 Prince was able to realize 589 00:24:21,851 --> 00:24:24,680 that these women deserved to be taken seriously. 590 00:24:24,810 --> 00:24:26,899 Who is a better percussionist than Sheila E? 591 00:24:27,030 --> 00:24:28,553 I mean, there really isn't one. 592 00:24:30,773 --> 00:24:33,471 I always wanted to be a solo artist, 593 00:24:33,602 --> 00:24:35,517 so he said, "Well, let's just make it happen." 594 00:24:35,647 --> 00:24:37,344 I was like, "Okay." 595 00:24:37,475 --> 00:24:39,782 Well, the next thing I know, I had a record deal. 596 00:24:39,912 --> 00:24:40,826 He's like, "Let's just go in the studio 597 00:24:40,957 --> 00:24:42,611 and record the record." 598 00:24:42,741 --> 00:24:44,482 And it was done in a week. 599 00:24:44,613 --> 00:24:45,875 "Glamorous Life," 600 00:24:46,005 --> 00:24:47,093 I knew it was a hit the first time 601 00:24:47,224 --> 00:24:49,400 I heard the song on the radio. 602 00:24:49,531 --> 00:24:53,056 ["Glamorous Life" plays] 603 00:24:53,186 --> 00:24:55,624 I was driving down Sunset Boulevard in a Mercedes 604 00:24:55,754 --> 00:24:57,539 'cause I'm living "the glamorous life". 605 00:24:57,669 --> 00:24:59,149 The top was down. 606 00:24:59,279 --> 00:25:01,325 -Bam! -[screeching wheels, collision] 607 00:25:01,455 --> 00:25:04,763 A car comes dashing down, and he hits me. 608 00:25:04,894 --> 00:25:05,503 I get out of the car, and I'm shaking. 609 00:25:05,634 --> 00:25:07,070 I'm like, "Oh, my God." 610 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,072 I mean, he really smashed the whole front end of the car. 611 00:25:09,202 --> 00:25:09,986 Cars are stopped, 612 00:25:10,116 --> 00:25:11,857 and no one knows what's happening, 613 00:25:11,988 --> 00:25:12,902 and I was like, "Are you okay?" 614 00:25:13,032 --> 00:25:14,425 He's like, "Yeah. Are you okay?" 615 00:25:14,556 --> 00:25:15,687 and I was like, "Yeah," 616 00:25:15,818 --> 00:25:17,646 and then I realized for one second, 617 00:25:17,776 --> 00:25:19,691 I could hear "Glamorous Life" playing on the radio. 618 00:25:19,822 --> 00:25:21,606 I'm like, "Do you know this is my song? 619 00:25:21,737 --> 00:25:23,216 This is it! Oh, my God! 620 00:25:23,347 --> 00:25:25,871 This is me, my first time ever hearing my song, 621 00:25:26,002 --> 00:25:27,003 'Glamorous Life,' ah!" 622 00:25:27,133 --> 00:25:28,787 I'm like, "Okay, now I've made it. 623 00:25:28,918 --> 00:25:30,963 I get to hear my song on the radio." 624 00:25:31,094 --> 00:25:34,576 ♪ She wants to lead a glamorous life ♪ 625 00:25:34,706 --> 00:25:38,231 ♪ She don't need a man's touch 626 00:25:38,362 --> 00:25:41,931 ♪ She wants to lead a glamorous life ♪ 627 00:25:42,061 --> 00:25:44,411 ♪ Without love, it ain't much 628 00:25:44,542 --> 00:25:45,848 And I was like, 629 00:25:45,978 --> 00:25:47,850 "You have to show me as who I am first." 630 00:25:47,980 --> 00:25:49,416 That is important. 631 00:25:49,547 --> 00:25:51,157 I am a percussion player 632 00:25:51,288 --> 00:25:52,768 who happens to sing a little bit, 633 00:25:52,898 --> 00:25:55,814 and can dance, and loves what I do, 634 00:25:55,945 --> 00:25:57,686 but if I just come out as a singer, 635 00:25:57,816 --> 00:25:58,600 then I'm like everyone else, 636 00:25:58,730 --> 00:26:00,384 and that's not who I am. 637 00:26:00,514 --> 00:26:02,429 And that was important to share with the people, 638 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,649 but really, to make sure 639 00:26:04,780 --> 00:26:06,520 that the record company understood. 640 00:26:06,651 --> 00:26:09,262 ♪ Without love, it ain't much 641 00:26:12,178 --> 00:26:15,268 ♪♪♪ 642 00:26:15,399 --> 00:26:16,530 My thing was 643 00:26:16,661 --> 00:26:18,707 I'm going to have a strong vision 644 00:26:18,837 --> 00:26:21,231 of what I want to do as a solo artist, 645 00:26:21,361 --> 00:26:23,668 I don't want to go in to any label, 646 00:26:23,799 --> 00:26:26,062 like, not knowing who I am, 647 00:26:26,192 --> 00:26:27,803 I know who I am, 648 00:26:27,933 --> 00:26:29,848 and I want that to be known from the get-go. 649 00:26:29,979 --> 00:26:31,763 This is what I want to look like, 650 00:26:31,894 --> 00:26:33,286 these are the songs I'm going to be writing, 651 00:26:33,417 --> 00:26:34,897 this is who I'm going to be working with. 652 00:26:36,072 --> 00:26:37,203 Being a Black artist, 653 00:26:37,334 --> 00:26:40,511 it's, like, there are certain boxes 654 00:26:40,642 --> 00:26:44,558 that immediately, you know, people want to put you in. 655 00:26:44,689 --> 00:26:46,778 I love rock music. Like I say, 656 00:26:46,909 --> 00:26:47,910 I love jazz music. 657 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,390 I love punk music, 658 00:26:50,521 --> 00:26:53,698 and so I wanted to just bring all of it in. 659 00:26:53,829 --> 00:26:55,700 I didn't want to be like anyone else, 660 00:26:55,831 --> 00:26:57,746 and I was very specific about that 661 00:26:57,876 --> 00:26:59,661 with the label when I signed. 662 00:26:59,791 --> 00:27:01,837 ♪ Friends will let you down 663 00:27:01,967 --> 00:27:04,230 ♪ Friends won't be around 664 00:27:04,361 --> 00:27:05,884 ♪ When you need them most 665 00:27:06,015 --> 00:27:08,191 ♪ Where are your friends? 666 00:27:08,321 --> 00:27:10,497 - ♪ Yeah, yeah - When I did "Friends," 667 00:27:10,628 --> 00:27:14,850 I thought it would be great to have Rakim do the verse. 668 00:27:14,980 --> 00:27:18,157 He's one of my favorite lyricists, rappers, 669 00:27:18,288 --> 00:27:19,811 just one of the best to ever do it. 670 00:27:20,986 --> 00:27:23,249 I pitched the concept to MCA. 671 00:27:23,380 --> 00:27:25,774 At first, they didn't get it. 672 00:27:25,904 --> 00:27:27,645 There were no collaborations, really. 673 00:27:27,776 --> 00:27:28,777 There were a couple, 674 00:27:28,907 --> 00:27:30,604 but they hadn't really done well. 675 00:27:30,735 --> 00:27:32,258 They didn't see how it would work 676 00:27:32,389 --> 00:27:33,869 because he's Rakim. "That's hip hop. 677 00:27:33,999 --> 00:27:35,131 Like, how is it going to work? 678 00:27:35,261 --> 00:27:36,872 You're an R&B, pop singer. 679 00:27:37,002 --> 00:27:38,003 Like, we don't get it." 680 00:27:39,222 --> 00:27:41,267 ♪ Friends are hard to find 681 00:27:41,398 --> 00:27:44,967 ♪ Friends, yours and mine 682 00:27:45,097 --> 00:27:46,969 ♪ I'm talking about your friends ♪ 683 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,494 ♪ You used to kiss me Tell me you missed me ♪ 684 00:27:50,624 --> 00:27:51,713 ♪ But now you try to glaze me ♪ 685 00:27:51,843 --> 00:27:53,018 ♪ Play me, and dis me 686 00:27:53,149 --> 00:27:54,324 ♪ I'm wide awake 687 00:27:54,454 --> 00:27:55,760 ♪ Ready to break so we'd argue ♪ 688 00:27:55,891 --> 00:27:56,718 ♪ What happened to the kisses 689 00:27:56,848 --> 00:27:57,762 ♪ And "Ra, how are you?" 690 00:27:57,893 --> 00:27:59,155 It really set the tone 691 00:27:59,285 --> 00:28:01,592 for what we still hear in music today 692 00:28:01,723 --> 00:28:03,246 with rap song collaborations. 693 00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:07,859 It was a top 10 on multiple charts. 694 00:28:07,990 --> 00:28:09,774 That really kind of opened the door 695 00:28:09,905 --> 00:28:10,906 for other artists and labels 696 00:28:11,036 --> 00:28:13,604 to know that this, it works. 697 00:28:13,735 --> 00:28:17,347 Jody Watley, as a writer, I always thought was amazing, 698 00:28:17,477 --> 00:28:18,609 you know what I mean? Like, it was soul 699 00:28:18,740 --> 00:28:20,306 in a whole different way. 700 00:28:20,437 --> 00:28:23,179 From disco, like, Donna Summer, and, like, it was-- 701 00:28:23,309 --> 00:28:25,224 it was, like, a very smooth transition, 702 00:28:25,355 --> 00:28:27,444 and to me, it was because it all-- 703 00:28:27,574 --> 00:28:29,533 it all came from this one source, you know what I mean? 704 00:28:29,663 --> 00:28:31,535 It was all this one thing. It was all so Black. 705 00:28:31,665 --> 00:28:33,189 I loved it. 706 00:28:37,889 --> 00:28:39,978 In the late '80s, 707 00:28:40,109 --> 00:28:42,459 Black music was just coming into its own, 708 00:28:42,589 --> 00:28:45,462 and hip-hop was just becoming what it was going to be. 709 00:28:45,592 --> 00:28:48,770 That scene doesn't get the credit that it deserves 710 00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:50,772 for changing pop culture forever. 711 00:28:51,860 --> 00:28:52,730 MC Lyte, 712 00:28:52,861 --> 00:28:54,340 Monie Love, 713 00:28:54,471 --> 00:28:55,733 Salt-N-Pepa, 714 00:28:55,864 --> 00:28:57,169 Queen Latifah, 715 00:28:57,300 --> 00:28:59,868 they were really pioneering, 716 00:28:59,998 --> 00:29:01,260 and they busted their way through. 717 00:29:02,740 --> 00:29:03,785 You have Sha-Rock. 718 00:29:03,915 --> 00:29:04,829 You have Roxanne Shante. 719 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,223 You have a lot of 14-year-olds 720 00:29:07,353 --> 00:29:09,616 in, like, the late '70s in the Bronx, 721 00:29:09,747 --> 00:29:12,794 like, innovating, like Sha-Rock, just spitting rhymes. 722 00:29:12,924 --> 00:29:14,534 You began to see 723 00:29:14,665 --> 00:29:16,623 the impact that women were starting to make 724 00:29:16,754 --> 00:29:17,450 on the world of rap, 725 00:29:17,581 --> 00:29:18,930 and the world of pop. 726 00:29:20,149 --> 00:29:21,280 You realize, "Oh, my God. 727 00:29:21,411 --> 00:29:23,152 M.C. Lyte's playing Carnegie Hall." 728 00:29:25,284 --> 00:29:26,546 You started to see these kind of, 729 00:29:26,677 --> 00:29:28,026 like, different characters, 730 00:29:28,157 --> 00:29:29,462 and these different personalities, 731 00:29:29,593 --> 00:29:31,900 and it wasn't, you know, they weren't all ladylike. 732 00:29:32,030 --> 00:29:32,814 ♪♪♪ 733 00:29:32,944 --> 00:29:34,380 ♪ Push it 734 00:29:34,511 --> 00:29:36,295 ♪ Push it good 735 00:29:36,426 --> 00:29:37,688 ♪ Push it 736 00:29:37,819 --> 00:29:39,603 ♪ Push it real good 737 00:29:39,733 --> 00:29:41,605 Salt-N-Pepa, when they came out with "Push It," 738 00:29:41,735 --> 00:29:47,002 they basically pushed hip-hop to pop radio. 739 00:29:47,132 --> 00:29:48,394 And they had the dance moves, 740 00:29:48,525 --> 00:29:50,135 and they were cute, 741 00:29:50,266 --> 00:29:51,615 and the videos looked cool. 742 00:29:51,745 --> 00:29:55,010 Salt-N-Pepa, it was so in-your-face, 743 00:29:55,140 --> 00:29:57,447 and they looked like girls 744 00:29:57,577 --> 00:30:00,929 that I saw every day in my neighborhood. 745 00:30:01,059 --> 00:30:02,931 You felt them. 746 00:30:03,061 --> 00:30:04,715 Visually, they were so fly. 747 00:30:04,846 --> 00:30:06,891 They had amazing haircuts, and they were colorful, 748 00:30:07,022 --> 00:30:08,588 and they were wearing men's jackets. 749 00:30:08,719 --> 00:30:10,242 It was women talking about 750 00:30:10,373 --> 00:30:12,331 stuff you didn't hear women talking about. 751 00:30:12,462 --> 00:30:15,291 "Oh, push it!" We were like, "Push what?" 752 00:30:15,421 --> 00:30:17,510 We're like, "Are they saying this? This is amazing." 753 00:30:17,641 --> 00:30:18,947 ♪ Can't you hear the music pumping hard ♪ 754 00:30:19,077 --> 00:30:20,426 ♪ Like I wish you would 755 00:30:20,557 --> 00:30:21,514 ♪ Now push it 756 00:30:21,645 --> 00:30:23,560 ♪♪♪ 757 00:30:23,690 --> 00:30:24,996 ♪ Push it good 758 00:30:25,127 --> 00:30:27,172 Ha, ha, ha, yeah! 759 00:30:27,303 --> 00:30:29,087 ♪ Push it real good! 760 00:30:29,218 --> 00:30:31,437 There's a little bit of them still in me, 761 00:30:31,568 --> 00:30:33,787 in all-- in all parts of my life. 762 00:30:33,918 --> 00:30:37,182 I think there was something very empowering 763 00:30:37,313 --> 00:30:42,057 about their approach to music and to lyricism. 764 00:30:42,187 --> 00:30:45,582 Their approach is, "We're ladies. 765 00:30:45,712 --> 00:30:46,713 We're out to get it," 766 00:30:46,844 --> 00:30:48,715 and I was like, 767 00:30:48,846 --> 00:30:50,674 "I want to take this much friggin' control 768 00:30:50,804 --> 00:30:53,633 over my general sexual being." 769 00:30:53,764 --> 00:30:54,678 That's what I got from them, 770 00:30:54,808 --> 00:30:56,462 a sense of command. 771 00:30:57,855 --> 00:30:58,725 So it was this, like, 772 00:30:58,856 --> 00:31:00,336 wonderful mesh of, like, 773 00:31:00,466 --> 00:31:02,773 obviously really creative and really good, 774 00:31:02,904 --> 00:31:03,905 but then really empowering, 775 00:31:04,035 --> 00:31:05,471 and interesting, 776 00:31:05,602 --> 00:31:07,169 and fresh, and new. 777 00:31:07,299 --> 00:31:09,258 Music was really evolving at that time, 778 00:31:09,388 --> 00:31:10,781 especially for women. 779 00:31:10,912 --> 00:31:12,087 You felt something changing. 780 00:31:12,217 --> 00:31:13,653 You felt something moving. 781 00:31:13,784 --> 00:31:15,525 It wasn't only crooning and crying, 782 00:31:15,655 --> 00:31:17,005 and sadness and romance. 783 00:31:17,135 --> 00:31:19,746 ♪♪♪ 784 00:31:19,877 --> 00:31:21,009 In the mid-to-late '80s, 785 00:31:21,139 --> 00:31:24,142 hip-hop is bubbling under and taking over, 786 00:31:24,273 --> 00:31:26,231 redefining music, 787 00:31:26,362 --> 00:31:29,539 but outside of that crucial movement, 788 00:31:29,669 --> 00:31:32,281 we really have these new archetypes, 789 00:31:32,411 --> 00:31:35,327 who emanate authenticity 790 00:31:35,458 --> 00:31:38,940 and a real sense of independence. 791 00:31:41,159 --> 00:31:42,769 I always had a lot of admiration 792 00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:43,901 for Annie Lennox. 793 00:31:44,032 --> 00:31:46,338 She was style. 794 00:31:46,469 --> 00:31:48,732 She was just this voice 795 00:31:48,862 --> 00:31:51,778 that could do anything, sing anything. 796 00:31:51,909 --> 00:31:57,349 She's a strong representative of a very liberated thinker, 797 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,614 a very creative, bold artist. 798 00:32:01,745 --> 00:32:06,010 ♪♪♪ 799 00:32:06,141 --> 00:32:09,492 ♪ It seems years since you held the baby... ♪ 800 00:32:09,622 --> 00:32:10,797 Sinead O'Connor 801 00:32:10,928 --> 00:32:15,193 is an incredibly ruthlessly truthful artist 802 00:32:15,324 --> 00:32:18,109 in revealing her innermost emotional world 803 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,851 and laying it all out on the line. 804 00:32:20,982 --> 00:32:23,854 She rocked my world when she first came out. 805 00:32:23,985 --> 00:32:25,595 ♪ Maybe I was mean 806 00:32:27,553 --> 00:32:29,729 ♪ But I really don't think so 807 00:32:31,993 --> 00:32:33,559 ♪ You asked if I'm scared 808 00:32:33,690 --> 00:32:34,996 ♪ And I... 809 00:32:36,693 --> 00:32:38,651 ♪ Said so 810 00:32:38,782 --> 00:32:40,523 As young women, 811 00:32:40,653 --> 00:32:42,612 still trying to figure out what our identity was, 812 00:32:42,742 --> 00:32:46,181 Sinead O'Connor was, like, profound to us. 813 00:32:46,311 --> 00:32:47,443 She just sort of seemed 814 00:32:47,573 --> 00:32:49,662 completely unlike any other woman. 815 00:32:53,188 --> 00:32:54,493 These are the young women 816 00:32:54,624 --> 00:32:56,234 who are the spiritual and the real children 817 00:32:56,365 --> 00:32:58,236 of second-wave feminists, 818 00:32:58,367 --> 00:32:59,977 and this is the first generation 819 00:33:00,108 --> 00:33:04,068 that really grows up with feminism from childhood on. 820 00:33:05,591 --> 00:33:08,333 A lot of us were taking women's studies classes, 821 00:33:08,464 --> 00:33:10,292 or, you know, reading 822 00:33:10,422 --> 00:33:12,207 feminist literature and stuff like that, 823 00:33:12,337 --> 00:33:16,559 or, for me, seeing my mom be, I guess, a second-wave feminist, 824 00:33:16,689 --> 00:33:19,040 but it didn't always speak to our personal lives, 825 00:33:19,170 --> 00:33:20,345 or to our daily lives. 826 00:33:20,476 --> 00:33:22,869 The '90s were just, like, I don't know. 827 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,871 If you were at all feminist, 828 00:33:25,002 --> 00:33:28,919 or had learned about feminism and knew anything about it, 829 00:33:29,050 --> 00:33:30,747 you were just kind of adrift, is what I felt like. 830 00:33:30,877 --> 00:33:33,837 Like, there was nothing going on. 831 00:33:33,967 --> 00:33:36,753 I mean, Timemagazine declared feminism dead. 832 00:33:36,883 --> 00:33:38,842 It was very lonely. 833 00:33:40,496 --> 00:33:43,760 This is the era of Anita Hill, let's not forget. 834 00:33:44,891 --> 00:33:47,372 I was very uncomfortable, and told him so. 835 00:33:47,503 --> 00:33:49,157 However, 836 00:33:49,287 --> 00:33:50,375 to my regret, 837 00:33:50,506 --> 00:33:51,898 in the following few weeks, 838 00:33:52,029 --> 00:33:54,901 he continued to ask me out on several occasions. 839 00:33:55,032 --> 00:33:56,164 This is the era 840 00:33:56,294 --> 00:34:00,081 of watching a woman tell her truth 841 00:34:00,211 --> 00:34:02,518 and be shot down 842 00:34:02,648 --> 00:34:06,783 on the biggest stage of our governmental system, 843 00:34:06,913 --> 00:34:10,526 and there's a direct connection between this moment 844 00:34:10,656 --> 00:34:12,397 where young women are saying, 845 00:34:12,528 --> 00:34:15,357 "I have to fight for and demand my own authority, 846 00:34:15,487 --> 00:34:18,099 and I'm going to start with my own story." 847 00:34:18,229 --> 00:34:20,536 This leads us to artists 848 00:34:20,666 --> 00:34:25,106 who can express themselves so deeply in their music-- 849 00:34:25,236 --> 00:34:27,499 artists like the bands of Riot Grrrl. 850 00:34:27,630 --> 00:34:32,287 ♪♪♪ 851 00:34:34,941 --> 00:34:36,160 Riot Grrrl was like 852 00:34:36,291 --> 00:34:40,382 a loose-knit feminist punk movement. 853 00:34:40,512 --> 00:34:44,777 It was really about a moment in the '90s 854 00:34:44,908 --> 00:34:46,997 where girls were trying to support each other, 855 00:34:47,128 --> 00:34:48,433 and support each other's work. 856 00:34:50,740 --> 00:34:52,959 One night, I was walking around downtown, 857 00:34:53,090 --> 00:34:57,225 and I heard this woman singing and yelling, 858 00:34:57,355 --> 00:34:59,009 so I walked up and peeked in the door, 859 00:34:59,140 --> 00:35:01,577 and it was Kathleen Hanna. 860 00:35:01,707 --> 00:35:03,579 She was just screaming these lyrics. 861 00:35:03,709 --> 00:35:05,798 I was totally afraid of her. 862 00:35:09,541 --> 00:35:12,675 She had this big vein sticking out of her neck. 863 00:35:12,805 --> 00:35:15,591 I just really saw this person letting it all hang out. 864 00:35:15,721 --> 00:35:17,593 She wasn't trying to sit pretty, 865 00:35:17,723 --> 00:35:19,595 or be behaved, or anything, 866 00:35:19,725 --> 00:35:22,424 and I thought, "Wow, that's so cool." 867 00:35:22,554 --> 00:35:25,818 You can't really get away from the fact that, like, 868 00:35:25,949 --> 00:35:27,429 Kathleen Hanna rules. 869 00:35:27,559 --> 00:35:29,431 The first time I heard Bikini Kill records, 870 00:35:29,561 --> 00:35:31,737 my ears were shredded, and I was blown away. 871 00:35:31,868 --> 00:35:34,392 It was like, "Whoa. You can do this? 872 00:35:34,523 --> 00:35:35,915 You can put all this out here?" 873 00:35:36,046 --> 00:35:38,744 You can be, like, absolutely defiant, 874 00:35:38,875 --> 00:35:43,227 demented, transgressive, confrontational. 875 00:35:46,187 --> 00:35:49,625 The Riot Grrrls were unfollowing the rules, you know. 876 00:35:49,755 --> 00:35:54,499 They were going for the raw energy of rock itself, 877 00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:56,806 and instead of anything pretentious whatsoever. 878 00:35:56,936 --> 00:35:58,590 Kathleen was saying, 879 00:35:58,721 --> 00:36:01,419 "Hey, enough of this love rock stuff. 880 00:36:01,550 --> 00:36:02,768 What about the girls? 881 00:36:02,899 --> 00:36:04,292 What if we don't want to be sensitive? 882 00:36:04,422 --> 00:36:06,642 What if we want to, like, scream about what's happening?" 883 00:36:08,513 --> 00:36:09,775 Bikini Kill, you know, 884 00:36:09,906 --> 00:36:11,516 was saying something important, 885 00:36:11,647 --> 00:36:13,779 like the next level up, for sure, 886 00:36:13,910 --> 00:36:15,607 from The Runaways. 887 00:36:15,738 --> 00:36:18,567 You know, they were taking it in a political direction, 888 00:36:18,697 --> 00:36:21,657 which was, by this time, I think, necessary. 889 00:36:23,441 --> 00:36:26,052 A lot of those kind of cool girl bands 890 00:36:26,183 --> 00:36:27,358 were coming up, 891 00:36:27,489 --> 00:36:28,794 and it was really great to see it, 892 00:36:28,925 --> 00:36:30,405 because that was 893 00:36:30,535 --> 00:36:34,017 the next logical step for women 894 00:36:34,147 --> 00:36:37,673 to be taking in music after the '80s. 895 00:36:37,803 --> 00:36:39,240 It was like, "Hey, it's about time." 896 00:36:39,370 --> 00:36:42,634 You know, the '80s postponed it somehow, you know? 897 00:36:45,811 --> 00:36:47,857 Kathleen Hanna and Allison Wolfe 898 00:36:47,987 --> 00:36:51,077 gave young girls a sense of place, 899 00:36:51,208 --> 00:36:53,906 and a sense that they belonged in punk. 900 00:36:55,647 --> 00:36:57,910 If anybody is fucking with you at this show, 901 00:36:58,041 --> 00:37:00,478 then you need to come up front and sit on the stage. 902 00:37:00,609 --> 00:37:02,654 It was really important when Kathleen 903 00:37:02,785 --> 00:37:05,831 started announcing girls to the front. 904 00:37:05,962 --> 00:37:07,311 It prioritized women 905 00:37:07,442 --> 00:37:10,314 in a scene where we weren't used to being prioritized. 906 00:37:10,445 --> 00:37:11,576 If you're going to mosh, 907 00:37:11,707 --> 00:37:12,969 why don't you just mosh in the back 908 00:37:13,099 --> 00:37:15,406 so that the girls can see people playing instruments 909 00:37:15,537 --> 00:37:17,103 and get inspired? 910 00:37:17,234 --> 00:37:19,628 So I just would invite girls to the front 911 00:37:19,758 --> 00:37:21,282 and say, "Why don't you guys come up to the front 912 00:37:21,412 --> 00:37:22,935 and watch for once 913 00:37:23,066 --> 00:37:24,372 instead of holding your boyfriend's fucking coats 914 00:37:24,502 --> 00:37:25,286 in the back?" 915 00:37:25,416 --> 00:37:26,983 And it worked. 916 00:37:33,381 --> 00:37:34,382 Hit it. 917 00:37:34,512 --> 00:37:35,992 ♪♪♪ 918 00:37:36,122 --> 00:37:37,036 This ain't no disco. 919 00:37:37,167 --> 00:37:39,909 ♪♪♪ 920 00:37:40,039 --> 00:37:41,345 It ain't no country club either. 921 00:37:44,087 --> 00:37:45,393 This is L.A. 922 00:37:46,872 --> 00:37:48,439 ♪ "All I want to do 923 00:37:48,570 --> 00:37:50,180 ♪ Is have a little fun before I die" ♪ 924 00:37:50,311 --> 00:37:52,008 ♪ Says the man next to me 925 00:37:52,138 --> 00:37:52,965 ♪ Out of nowhere 926 00:37:53,096 --> 00:37:55,185 ♪♪♪ 927 00:37:55,316 --> 00:37:56,752 Sheryl Crow is the shit. So good. 928 00:37:56,882 --> 00:37:59,363 ♪ He says his name is William 929 00:37:59,494 --> 00:38:00,712 She's the epitome of, like, a badass. 930 00:38:00,843 --> 00:38:02,627 That is, like, the word that comes to me 931 00:38:02,758 --> 00:38:04,107 when I think of Sheryl Crow. 932 00:38:04,237 --> 00:38:08,372 She is the reason why I do what I do. 933 00:38:08,503 --> 00:38:09,939 Never mind what you feel like. 934 00:38:10,069 --> 00:38:11,332 She's lying to you. 935 00:38:11,462 --> 00:38:12,855 Everything you hear her saying, 936 00:38:12,985 --> 00:38:14,117 you're like, "I believe you." 937 00:38:14,247 --> 00:38:15,988 ♪♪♪ 938 00:38:16,119 --> 00:38:18,034 ♪ They ain't nothing like Billy and me ♪ 939 00:38:18,164 --> 00:38:22,386 ♪ 'Cause all I want to do is have some fun ♪ 940 00:38:22,517 --> 00:38:27,522 ♪ Until the sun comes up over Santa Monica Boulevard ♪ 941 00:38:27,652 --> 00:38:29,175 Sheryl Crow had some of 942 00:38:29,306 --> 00:38:33,832 the most classic blues Americana rock songs, 943 00:38:33,963 --> 00:38:35,704 in league with, like, Tom Petty. 944 00:38:35,834 --> 00:38:39,055 She has some Tom Petty-level songs. 945 00:38:39,185 --> 00:38:40,796 Does that sound weird? 946 00:38:40,926 --> 00:38:41,710 That sounds a little fucked up. 947 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,103 She's almost as good-- 948 00:38:44,234 --> 00:38:45,409 She's almost as good as man. 949 00:38:45,540 --> 00:38:47,280 Um... 950 00:38:47,411 --> 00:38:48,934 No, Sheryl Crow is unmistakable. 951 00:38:49,065 --> 00:38:52,938 ♪♪♪ 952 00:38:53,069 --> 00:38:56,072 Growing up and, like, hearing her songs on the radio 953 00:38:56,202 --> 00:38:58,640 was so important to me. 954 00:38:58,770 --> 00:39:01,686 She took poetic license in her verses 955 00:39:01,817 --> 00:39:03,384 to talk about things, 956 00:39:03,514 --> 00:39:06,474 to go into territory that, like, Bob Dylan would. 957 00:39:06,604 --> 00:39:08,258 I needed that. 958 00:39:08,389 --> 00:39:09,825 I needed to see those things. 959 00:39:11,653 --> 00:39:14,873 I look at power as being freedom. 960 00:39:15,004 --> 00:39:17,441 You know, for me, power wasn't dominance. 961 00:39:17,572 --> 00:39:20,183 It was the permission to do what I knew I could do, 962 00:39:20,313 --> 00:39:22,359 and I had to do a lot of things wrong 963 00:39:22,490 --> 00:39:23,621 in order to figure out 964 00:39:23,752 --> 00:39:24,883 how to make that happen for myself. 965 00:39:27,538 --> 00:39:29,540 I toured as a back-up singer with Michael Jackson, 966 00:39:29,671 --> 00:39:32,717 or for other artists. 967 00:39:32,848 --> 00:39:33,675 You know, the woman stood in the back 968 00:39:33,805 --> 00:39:35,241 and did sexy moves 969 00:39:35,372 --> 00:39:36,634 and wore a tight black dress. 970 00:39:36,765 --> 00:39:38,157 You know, that was just never who I was. 971 00:39:40,029 --> 00:39:42,074 Knowing that you have so much talent, 972 00:39:42,205 --> 00:39:44,860 and standing behind someone else is pretty-- 973 00:39:44,990 --> 00:39:46,514 That's a strong person, you know, 974 00:39:46,644 --> 00:39:47,906 and being, like, "One day, 975 00:39:48,037 --> 00:39:49,255 you motherfuckers don't even know." 976 00:39:49,386 --> 00:39:50,605 Sorry for my language, but it's the truth. 977 00:39:50,735 --> 00:39:52,128 It's like, "One day." 978 00:39:54,870 --> 00:39:56,915 I wanted to be taken seriously, like the artists 979 00:39:57,046 --> 00:39:58,874 that I had absolutely loved and adored-- 980 00:39:59,004 --> 00:40:01,050 women like Emmylou Harris, 981 00:40:01,180 --> 00:40:02,965 and Rickie Lee Jones, 982 00:40:03,095 --> 00:40:04,923 and certainly Bonnie Raitt, 983 00:40:05,054 --> 00:40:09,101 all these incredible women who made music that 984 00:40:09,232 --> 00:40:11,930 paved the way for me to do what I was doing. 985 00:40:13,802 --> 00:40:15,194 Stevie Nicks illustrated 986 00:40:15,325 --> 00:40:17,980 what I felt like I could be someday. 987 00:40:18,110 --> 00:40:20,939 Her songs were very steeped in not just rock 'n' roll, 988 00:40:21,070 --> 00:40:22,550 but, like, Everly Brothers harmonies, 989 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,682 and just great songwriting. 990 00:40:24,813 --> 00:40:26,989 I really saw myself in that. 991 00:40:28,207 --> 00:40:30,296 Cut to, you know, 25 years later, 992 00:40:30,427 --> 00:40:33,865 meeting Stevie Nicks at a Grammys party, 993 00:40:33,996 --> 00:40:34,605 and she said, "We should get together. 994 00:40:34,736 --> 00:40:35,998 I love what you do. 995 00:40:36,128 --> 00:40:37,956 I would love to have you come in and produce me." 996 00:40:39,305 --> 00:40:40,872 It's often been said 997 00:40:41,003 --> 00:40:42,439 that we should never meet our heroes 998 00:40:42,570 --> 00:40:45,094 for fear of disappointment. 999 00:40:45,224 --> 00:40:48,576 I'm proud to say I have met my hero, 1000 00:40:48,706 --> 00:40:51,927 and she's more wonderful than I could ever have imagined. 1001 00:40:52,057 --> 00:40:55,191 She's an inspiration, a hero, a friend, 1002 00:40:55,321 --> 00:40:57,149 an open, beautiful person. 1003 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:58,977 [applause] 1004 00:40:59,108 --> 00:41:00,849 You know, all the awards in the world 1005 00:41:00,979 --> 00:41:02,720 can't measure up to meeting somebody 1006 00:41:02,851 --> 00:41:04,896 that really brought you to where you are. 1007 00:41:05,027 --> 00:41:08,596 For them to ask for you to be a part of their story, 1008 00:41:08,726 --> 00:41:11,337 one of the greatest artists of all time, 1009 00:41:11,468 --> 00:41:15,603 was such a monumental moment in my career, 1010 00:41:15,733 --> 00:41:17,300 and it stays with me always. 1011 00:41:18,954 --> 00:41:22,174 ♪ And the days go by 1012 00:41:22,305 --> 00:41:23,567 ♪ Whoa 1013 00:41:23,698 --> 00:41:27,179 ♪ Doing nothing about them 1014 00:41:27,310 --> 00:41:30,095 ♪ How much time 1015 00:41:30,226 --> 00:41:31,619 ♪ Whoa 1016 00:41:31,749 --> 00:41:34,665 ♪ Will I have to spend 1017 00:41:40,279 --> 00:41:42,020 Tuesday Night Music Club sessions, 1018 00:41:42,151 --> 00:41:44,719 a bunch of guys hanging out in the studio. 1019 00:41:44,849 --> 00:41:46,155 We all jammed together. 1020 00:41:46,285 --> 00:41:49,593 I was the only girl, very misfit-y, 1021 00:41:49,724 --> 00:41:53,205 kind of "us against the world" attitude about making music. 1022 00:41:55,077 --> 00:41:56,774 When the record took off, 1023 00:41:56,905 --> 00:42:00,604 I had a ton of press that turned sour, 1024 00:42:00,735 --> 00:42:03,302 claiming that the men on my record wrote my record. 1025 00:42:05,696 --> 00:42:09,918 Sheryl Crow was not given her due in her first record 1026 00:42:10,048 --> 00:42:13,878 as the truly crucial force she was and is. 1027 00:42:14,009 --> 00:42:17,621 She is just a crucial figure 1028 00:42:17,752 --> 00:42:19,797 in the rise of equality 1029 00:42:19,928 --> 00:42:22,104 for women in mainstream popular music. 1030 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:25,411 [Crow] There were a lot of things 1031 00:42:25,542 --> 00:42:26,891 that I just felt, like, were so unfair, 1032 00:42:27,022 --> 00:42:28,806 and that I look at now, and think 1033 00:42:28,937 --> 00:42:30,852 it's just the product of sexism. 1034 00:42:30,982 --> 00:42:33,681 What do we do with a woman who looks really strong? 1035 00:42:33,811 --> 00:42:35,726 "Well, we can't have that." 1036 00:42:37,815 --> 00:42:40,209 After selling nine million copies, 1037 00:42:40,339 --> 00:42:42,733 the pressure of following that up, 1038 00:42:42,864 --> 00:42:45,910 it was daunting, going in and making a second record, 1039 00:42:46,041 --> 00:42:47,651 but I knew I could make that record. 1040 00:42:49,131 --> 00:42:51,089 I walked into a studio. 1041 00:42:51,220 --> 00:42:52,917 My producer, who I was counting on, 1042 00:42:53,048 --> 00:42:55,180 left after 24 hours, 1043 00:42:55,311 --> 00:42:57,792 and out rolls Trina Shoemaker from underneath the board, 1044 00:42:57,922 --> 00:43:00,359 who is a female engineer, 1045 00:43:00,490 --> 00:43:02,623 and the next day, we started working. 1046 00:43:02,753 --> 00:43:04,450 It felt natural. 1047 00:43:04,581 --> 00:43:05,756 It felt right. 1048 00:43:05,887 --> 00:43:08,150 It felt badass. 1049 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,108 It felt "eff you." 1050 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,807 You know, it felt all of those things, 1051 00:43:12,937 --> 00:43:14,156 but mostly empowering, 1052 00:43:14,286 --> 00:43:15,984 to be able to close the door, 1053 00:43:16,114 --> 00:43:22,251 and to dig in to making a record with allies, 1054 00:43:22,381 --> 00:43:24,340 and equals, and women. 1055 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,606 It feels like a proclamation of, 1056 00:43:29,737 --> 00:43:31,173 "I did this, 1057 00:43:31,303 --> 00:43:34,655 and you guys didn't believe in a woman producing, 1058 00:43:34,785 --> 00:43:36,308 but here it is, 1059 00:43:36,439 --> 00:43:40,138 and, you know, do what you will with it." 1060 00:43:41,531 --> 00:43:44,316 In a lot of ways, it became my first album. 1061 00:43:44,447 --> 00:43:46,144 It became my real... 1062 00:43:47,450 --> 00:43:48,930 expression of who I was. 1063 00:43:51,889 --> 00:43:53,630 This is a song about a jerk. 1064 00:43:53,761 --> 00:43:54,892 I hexed him. 1065 00:43:55,023 --> 00:43:56,328 Now he's losing his hair. 1066 00:43:57,590 --> 00:44:00,985 ♪♪♪ 1067 00:44:01,116 --> 00:44:06,251 ♪ The sky was made of amethyst ♪ 1068 00:44:06,382 --> 00:44:09,298 ♪ And all the stars were just like little fish ♪ 1069 00:44:09,428 --> 00:44:11,822 In the '90s, it was really easy 1070 00:44:11,953 --> 00:44:14,390 to find male bands that we were attached to, 1071 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:15,826 but we had to look a little harder 1072 00:44:15,957 --> 00:44:18,002 for women who sounded like those bands, 1073 00:44:18,133 --> 00:44:19,656 and what those bands sounded like to us 1074 00:44:19,787 --> 00:44:21,876 was angry, and confident, 1075 00:44:22,006 --> 00:44:23,355 and I think we were looking 1076 00:44:23,486 --> 00:44:25,183 for women who scared people and didn't care. 1077 00:44:25,314 --> 00:44:27,533 To us, finding Courtney Love was like finding a universe. 1078 00:44:27,664 --> 00:44:28,926 She was our example 1079 00:44:29,057 --> 00:44:32,060 of, like, a woman who intimidated people, 1080 00:44:32,190 --> 00:44:33,757 and so we wanted to be intimidating, 1081 00:44:33,888 --> 00:44:35,585 and we wanted to act like that. 1082 00:44:35,716 --> 00:44:38,719 ♪ You never want it again 1083 00:44:38,849 --> 00:44:41,112 ♪ Go on, take everything 1084 00:44:41,243 --> 00:44:43,071 ♪ Take everything 1085 00:44:43,201 --> 00:44:44,942 ♪ I want you to 1086 00:44:45,073 --> 00:44:47,336 ♪ Go on, take everything... 1087 00:44:47,466 --> 00:44:49,120 Courtney Love was the first woman 1088 00:44:49,251 --> 00:44:50,948 we'd ever seen talk about things like 1089 00:44:51,079 --> 00:44:52,733 sexual assault and... 1090 00:44:52,863 --> 00:44:54,125 -...abortion. -Abortion. 1091 00:44:54,256 --> 00:44:58,086 And she, like, had such a specific level of, 1092 00:44:58,216 --> 00:44:59,827 like, middle finger to the air, 1093 00:44:59,957 --> 00:45:01,219 "I don't give a fuck about anything." 1094 00:45:03,352 --> 00:45:05,310 I remember seeing the "Miss World" video 1095 00:45:05,441 --> 00:45:07,008 and kind of being scared of it. 1096 00:45:08,749 --> 00:45:11,882 Courtney shows her true mastery of songcraft, 1097 00:45:12,013 --> 00:45:15,756 and her ability to write incredible lyrics 1098 00:45:15,886 --> 00:45:18,584 about what it feels like 1099 00:45:18,715 --> 00:45:21,762 to want so desperately 1100 00:45:21,892 --> 00:45:23,851 to fit in 1101 00:45:23,981 --> 00:45:26,244 with those ideals 1102 00:45:26,375 --> 00:45:28,159 that have oppressed women for so many years, 1103 00:45:28,290 --> 00:45:30,901 but at the same time, to want to destroy them. 1104 00:45:32,816 --> 00:45:34,470 A lot of what the '90s was about 1105 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,820 was this huge question of 1106 00:45:36,951 --> 00:45:38,387 how do we live as women 1107 00:45:38,517 --> 00:45:42,826 within some kind of idea of the feminine, 1108 00:45:42,957 --> 00:45:46,482 but not have it wreck us? 1109 00:45:46,612 --> 00:45:50,834 It's such a core problem of the feminine experience. 1110 00:45:50,965 --> 00:45:52,662 Few artists have expressed it 1111 00:45:52,793 --> 00:45:56,361 with such open eyes as Courtney Love has. 1112 00:45:58,059 --> 00:46:01,279 Courtney Love told me one time, just, like, "Just fuck it." 1113 00:46:01,410 --> 00:46:03,325 Like, "If something bothers you, just fuck it. 1114 00:46:03,455 --> 00:46:05,893 Like, just get up there and just kick ass," 1115 00:46:06,023 --> 00:46:08,243 and I loved that because, first of all, 1116 00:46:08,373 --> 00:46:09,984 I wanted to show all the boys in pop rock 1117 00:46:10,114 --> 00:46:11,246 that I could whup their asses. 1118 00:46:12,813 --> 00:46:14,727 The landscape of the industry, 1119 00:46:14,858 --> 00:46:16,599 when I came out, 1120 00:46:16,729 --> 00:46:18,470 was girls just being vulnerable, 1121 00:46:18,601 --> 00:46:19,645 being honest, 1122 00:46:19,776 --> 00:46:21,691 showing true emotion, 1123 00:46:21,822 --> 00:46:23,998 and being unapologetic about it, 1124 00:46:24,128 --> 00:46:26,870 which I love, so it was perfect timing for me 1125 00:46:27,001 --> 00:46:28,959 because I needed to do the same thing. 1126 00:46:30,134 --> 00:46:31,832 Women like Courtney Love 1127 00:46:31,962 --> 00:46:33,703 and the band Hole. 1128 00:46:33,834 --> 00:46:35,270 You had Alanis Morissette, 1129 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:36,445 Fiona Apple, 1130 00:46:36,575 --> 00:46:37,489 Tori Amos, 1131 00:46:37,620 --> 00:46:39,100 PJ Harvey, 1132 00:46:39,230 --> 00:46:41,972 really channeling this righteous feminist rage 1133 00:46:42,103 --> 00:46:44,061 of the era. 1134 00:46:44,192 --> 00:46:47,848 And then you had Liz Phair speaking truth 1135 00:46:47,978 --> 00:46:49,458 in these really funny 1136 00:46:49,588 --> 00:46:53,636 but extremely honest confessional songs. 1137 00:46:53,766 --> 00:46:57,335 What made their rage so distinctive was 1138 00:46:57,466 --> 00:47:00,599 the simultaneous vulnerability of it all. 1139 00:47:00,730 --> 00:47:03,559 Women have been given this powerful role 1140 00:47:03,689 --> 00:47:06,170 to scream and yell 1141 00:47:06,301 --> 00:47:09,217 during times of transition 1142 00:47:09,347 --> 00:47:12,916 or grief or pain for communities. 1143 00:47:13,047 --> 00:47:13,961 It's not just something that happens 1144 00:47:14,091 --> 00:47:15,353 in rituals around the world. 1145 00:47:15,484 --> 00:47:18,835 It's something that we see in popular music, 1146 00:47:18,966 --> 00:47:22,012 whether it's Janis Joplin, 1147 00:47:22,143 --> 00:47:24,014 Yoko Ono screaming, 1148 00:47:24,145 --> 00:47:25,581 Nina Simone. 1149 00:47:25,711 --> 00:47:27,191 All of these artists 1150 00:47:27,322 --> 00:47:29,628 are also playing that role 1151 00:47:29,759 --> 00:47:32,980 as a way for us to process how we feel. 1152 00:47:34,982 --> 00:47:37,288 Alanis Morissette was an absolute game changer, 1153 00:47:37,419 --> 00:47:39,682 who ends up epitomizing 1154 00:47:39,812 --> 00:47:43,860 angry women in rock in the mid-'90s 1155 00:47:43,991 --> 00:47:45,427 with Jagged Little Pill. 1156 00:47:46,602 --> 00:47:48,256 The first time I remember hearing Alanis Morissette 1157 00:47:48,386 --> 00:47:50,127 was actually seeing her music video 1158 00:47:50,258 --> 00:47:52,216 for "You Oughta Know" on MuchMusic, 1159 00:47:52,347 --> 00:47:55,045 and when they debuted it, we flipped out, 1160 00:47:55,176 --> 00:47:57,352 like, flipped out. 1161 00:47:57,482 --> 00:47:59,615 Her frustration and anger, 1162 00:47:59,745 --> 00:48:01,617 poof, just, like, exploded our mind. 1163 00:48:01,747 --> 00:48:02,748 She seemed so pissed off, 1164 00:48:02,879 --> 00:48:04,925 and it was perfect. 1165 00:48:05,055 --> 00:48:06,796 I'd repressed a lot of my anger for a long time. 1166 00:48:06,927 --> 00:48:08,363 It wasn't something that women, 1167 00:48:08,493 --> 00:48:09,930 or people in general in society, 1168 00:48:10,060 --> 00:48:11,453 were encouraged to do. 1169 00:48:11,583 --> 00:48:13,455 If something was bothering me, I'd hold it in, 1170 00:48:13,585 --> 00:48:14,978 and the only way that I knew how to express it 1171 00:48:15,109 --> 00:48:16,545 was through my journal, 1172 00:48:16,675 --> 00:48:18,416 and then eventually through music. 1173 00:48:18,547 --> 00:48:20,592 So I think because I'd repressed it for so long, 1174 00:48:20,723 --> 00:48:22,681 there was this urgency when it first came out. 1175 00:48:24,509 --> 00:48:26,642 I was obsessed with her vulnerability 1176 00:48:26,772 --> 00:48:27,817 at the same time, 1177 00:48:27,948 --> 00:48:29,645 just, like, kicking doors down, 1178 00:48:29,775 --> 00:48:32,343 and just being fearless, 1179 00:48:32,474 --> 00:48:35,346 and her lyrics were gnarly. 1180 00:48:35,477 --> 00:48:37,566 I'd never heard lyrics like that before. 1181 00:48:37,696 --> 00:48:42,266 ♪ Did you forget about me Mr. Duplicity? ♪ 1182 00:48:42,397 --> 00:48:45,530 ♪ I hate to bug you in the middle of dinner ♪ 1183 00:48:46,967 --> 00:48:48,881 ♪ It was a slap in the face 1184 00:48:49,012 --> 00:48:51,232 ♪ How quickly I was replaced 1185 00:48:51,362 --> 00:48:53,364 ♪ And are you thinking of me 1186 00:48:53,495 --> 00:48:55,584 ♪ When you fuck her? 1187 00:48:56,672 --> 00:48:57,586 ♪ 'Cause the love that you gave... ♪ 1188 00:48:57,716 --> 00:49:00,806 Alanis Morissette gave us true commitment. 1189 00:49:00,937 --> 00:49:03,157 She committed to her music. 1190 00:49:03,287 --> 00:49:04,767 You can hear it. 1191 00:49:05,855 --> 00:49:07,726 ♪ And every time you speak her name ♪ 1192 00:49:07,857 --> 00:49:08,989 ♪ Does she know how you told me ♪ 1193 00:49:09,119 --> 00:49:11,165 ♪ You'd hold me until you died 1194 00:49:11,295 --> 00:49:12,383 ♪ Until you died 1195 00:49:12,514 --> 00:49:14,168 ♪ But you're still alive 1196 00:49:14,298 --> 00:49:18,650 ♪ And I'm here to remind you 1197 00:49:18,781 --> 00:49:23,264 ♪ Of the mess you left when you went away ♪ 1198 00:49:23,394 --> 00:49:27,790 ♪ It's not fair to deny me 1199 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:32,099 ♪ Of the cross I bear that you gave to me ♪ 1200 00:49:32,229 --> 00:49:35,232 ♪ You, you, you oughta know 1201 00:49:39,149 --> 00:49:40,411 Women in the '90s 1202 00:49:40,542 --> 00:49:42,326 and the music that they were making 1203 00:49:42,457 --> 00:49:44,415 finally fully spoke 1204 00:49:44,546 --> 00:49:49,899 to the spectrum of women. 1205 00:49:50,030 --> 00:49:53,120 Like, they were finally allowed to sort of be seen, 1206 00:49:53,250 --> 00:49:56,471 and the '90s was really where 1207 00:49:56,601 --> 00:49:58,864 we saw women at the top of the charts, 1208 00:49:58,995 --> 00:50:02,651 at the top of sales figures, 1209 00:50:02,781 --> 00:50:04,044 getting radio play. 1210 00:50:05,262 --> 00:50:08,309 I had never seen a front woman. 1211 00:50:08,439 --> 00:50:09,484 Honestly, I think Gwen Stefani 1212 00:50:09,614 --> 00:50:12,269 is the first front woman I ever saw. 1213 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:13,705 I didn't know that, like, 1214 00:50:13,836 --> 00:50:16,143 girls could be 1215 00:50:16,273 --> 00:50:18,449 that level of, like, in your face, 1216 00:50:18,580 --> 00:50:21,626 because I just didn't see it a lot growing up. 1217 00:50:21,757 --> 00:50:24,325 Like, I remember seeing, like, Nirvana, and being like, 1218 00:50:24,455 --> 00:50:25,804 "Oh, you can, like, have your hair in your face, 1219 00:50:25,935 --> 00:50:27,502 and, like, headbang, and that's a vibe," 1220 00:50:27,632 --> 00:50:28,633 but I didn't realize that, like, 1221 00:50:28,764 --> 00:50:31,332 women could be so, like, tough, 1222 00:50:31,462 --> 00:50:34,117 with the ab-baring crop tops. 1223 00:50:34,248 --> 00:50:35,466 Like, there was this very, like, 1224 00:50:35,597 --> 00:50:36,815 feminine thing about her, 1225 00:50:36,946 --> 00:50:39,905 but also this just, like, punk attitude. 1226 00:50:41,081 --> 00:50:42,952 I remember she would, like, spit up in the air on stage, 1227 00:50:43,083 --> 00:50:45,911 and I was like, "That's so cool. I've never seen..." 1228 00:50:46,042 --> 00:50:47,957 Like, I had never seen a girl do that before, 1229 00:50:48,088 --> 00:50:49,480 especially at that age. Like, it was like, 1230 00:50:49,611 --> 00:50:51,439 "Don't spit. It's not girly." 1231 00:50:51,569 --> 00:50:53,832 She was punk, but she was also, 1232 00:50:53,963 --> 00:50:56,096 you know, a girly girl. 1233 00:51:01,275 --> 00:51:02,711 The first time that I heard Fiona Apple 1234 00:51:02,841 --> 00:51:04,539 and that first album that came out, 1235 00:51:04,669 --> 00:51:05,844 it was like 1236 00:51:05,975 --> 00:51:08,499 she wasn't shying away from the darkness, 1237 00:51:08,630 --> 00:51:10,675 and she didn't seem like she had to, like, 1238 00:51:10,806 --> 00:51:13,548 put on this, like, happy face. 1239 00:51:13,678 --> 00:51:15,680 Like, she could talk about her feelings 1240 00:51:15,811 --> 00:51:17,552 in a way that felt really real, 1241 00:51:17,682 --> 00:51:19,293 and that I really connected to. 1242 00:51:19,423 --> 00:51:21,382 It was just so cathartic. 1243 00:51:21,512 --> 00:51:23,166 I just listened to that album on repeat. 1244 00:51:24,341 --> 00:51:27,039 I was, like, 14 or 15 when Tidalcame out, 1245 00:51:27,170 --> 00:51:29,216 and she was only a few years older. 1246 00:51:29,346 --> 00:51:30,565 I, at that point, already knew 1247 00:51:30,695 --> 00:51:32,132 that I wanted to make music, 1248 00:51:32,262 --> 00:51:33,916 and I was here listening to someone 1249 00:51:34,046 --> 00:51:37,659 who's so genius, and so wise beyond her years, 1250 00:51:37,789 --> 00:51:42,490 and so, like, absolutely vulnerable and tough, 1251 00:51:42,620 --> 00:51:44,579 and seemed to only do things on her own terms, 1252 00:51:44,709 --> 00:51:47,147 even as, like. a 19-, 20-year-old, 1253 00:51:47,277 --> 00:51:49,061 and I was just like, 1254 00:51:49,192 --> 00:51:50,367 "Oh, man. 1255 00:51:50,498 --> 00:51:53,544 If she's making this at this age, 1256 00:51:53,675 --> 00:51:55,807 like, whoa, I got a lot of work to do." 1257 00:51:55,938 --> 00:51:57,113 I was like... 1258 00:51:57,244 --> 00:52:02,118 Very few artists can sort of live without skin, 1259 00:52:02,249 --> 00:52:03,989 and I feel like Fiona Apple is one of those... 1260 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:05,208 one of those artists. 1261 00:52:07,384 --> 00:52:10,126 Fiona and early Tori Amos records, 1262 00:52:10,257 --> 00:52:12,998 like Little Earthquakes, 1263 00:52:13,129 --> 00:52:14,826 they were dangerous. 1264 00:52:14,957 --> 00:52:16,611 They talked about things that were very dark. 1265 00:52:16,741 --> 00:52:18,134 They talked about sexual assault. 1266 00:52:18,265 --> 00:52:20,745 They talked about very deep, very raw emotions. 1267 00:52:24,227 --> 00:52:26,360 My first pro job as a piano player 1268 00:52:26,490 --> 00:52:29,580 was at Mr. Henry's, the gay bar, 1269 00:52:29,711 --> 00:52:32,279 and I guess as a teenage girl, 1270 00:52:32,409 --> 00:52:34,368 I needed the gay waiters to tell me, 1271 00:52:34,498 --> 00:52:37,022 "How do you deal with a man 1272 00:52:37,153 --> 00:52:39,677 whose hand is kind of slipping down your back? 1273 00:52:39,808 --> 00:52:42,898 How do you place a hand somewhere else, 1274 00:52:43,028 --> 00:52:45,814 and not lose a customer?" 1275 00:52:45,944 --> 00:52:48,295 Because you couldn't lose a customer, 1276 00:52:48,425 --> 00:52:50,384 or you would lose your job, 1277 00:52:50,514 --> 00:52:52,255 but I said to myself, 1278 00:52:52,386 --> 00:52:53,778 "If I don't do something, 1279 00:52:53,909 --> 00:52:56,128 I'm going to die in this bar room 1280 00:52:56,259 --> 00:52:57,304 at a piano, 1281 00:52:57,434 --> 00:52:58,696 smelling of beer," 1282 00:52:58,827 --> 00:52:59,915 and I hate beer. 1283 00:53:01,612 --> 00:53:04,006 So, I didn't do the clever thing. 1284 00:53:04,136 --> 00:53:06,704 I started trying to become everybody else. 1285 00:53:08,140 --> 00:53:10,882 I had sent my songs out since I was 13 1286 00:53:11,013 --> 00:53:12,406 to record people, 1287 00:53:12,536 --> 00:53:13,798 and they said, 1288 00:53:13,929 --> 00:53:15,931 "You can't be serious about this. 1289 00:53:16,061 --> 00:53:19,239 This girl and her piano thing is never going to happen." 1290 00:53:19,369 --> 00:53:20,762 And after seven years, 1291 00:53:20,892 --> 00:53:22,590 I started to believe, "Well, maybe they're right." 1292 00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:24,069 They said, "You know, get a band, 1293 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:25,070 do dance music, 1294 00:53:25,201 --> 00:53:26,681 do metal music, 1295 00:53:26,811 --> 00:53:28,465 do anything but what you're doing," 1296 00:53:28,596 --> 00:53:30,641 and I listened to them. 1297 00:53:30,772 --> 00:53:34,123 When I did what everybody's opinion was, 1298 00:53:34,254 --> 00:53:35,603 they called me a bimbo. 1299 00:53:37,822 --> 00:53:40,042 The music industry in the late '80s 1300 00:53:40,172 --> 00:53:42,305 didn't know what they wanted. 1301 00:53:42,436 --> 00:53:44,438 They wanted what happened last month. 1302 00:53:46,614 --> 00:53:48,920 So I didn't listen to that lesson 1303 00:53:49,051 --> 00:53:51,706 that Rickie Lee was trying to tell us all, 1304 00:53:51,836 --> 00:53:53,447 that if you're you and you're unique, 1305 00:53:53,577 --> 00:53:54,752 there is a place for you. 1306 00:53:57,233 --> 00:53:59,627 Rickie Lee blew my mind. 1307 00:54:00,715 --> 00:54:04,371 She was saying, "Tori, you can be Tori. 1308 00:54:04,501 --> 00:54:06,460 You just have to go find what that is." 1309 00:54:09,506 --> 00:54:11,421 Central in making Little Earthquakes 1310 00:54:11,552 --> 00:54:14,381 was unzip the skin-- 1311 00:54:14,511 --> 00:54:16,121 that's what this record's about-- 1312 00:54:16,252 --> 00:54:18,689 and I sort of made an oath, 1313 00:54:18,820 --> 00:54:21,083 a promise to the muses, 1314 00:54:21,213 --> 00:54:23,825 to document life as I saw it. 1315 00:54:24,913 --> 00:54:28,003 When you suddenly go from playing in a club 1316 00:54:28,133 --> 00:54:30,701 to being on a label, 1317 00:54:30,832 --> 00:54:32,573 and what is the expectation? 1318 00:54:32,703 --> 00:54:34,139 You're an artist, 1319 00:54:34,270 --> 00:54:36,098 you're creating something, 1320 00:54:36,228 --> 00:54:38,840 and you're trying to honor what that is, 1321 00:54:38,970 --> 00:54:41,146 and then there's the selling part of the thing. 1322 00:54:41,277 --> 00:54:42,017 "You've made this thing. 1323 00:54:42,147 --> 00:54:43,018 How do we sell it? 1324 00:54:43,148 --> 00:54:44,585 And how do we sell you?" 1325 00:54:45,673 --> 00:54:47,718 When women come together, 1326 00:54:47,849 --> 00:54:49,459 women talk, women form ideas, 1327 00:54:49,590 --> 00:54:51,722 women form coalitions. 1328 00:54:51,853 --> 00:54:53,811 We create change. Women get shit done. 1329 00:54:53,942 --> 00:54:58,381 That was innately intimidating to men 1330 00:54:58,512 --> 00:55:00,905 and to the old structure, 1331 00:55:01,036 --> 00:55:02,559 which they just-- 1332 00:55:02,690 --> 00:55:04,082 Everything, they wanted things to stay the same, 1333 00:55:04,213 --> 00:55:06,215 and... 1334 00:55:06,346 --> 00:55:08,609 we wanted things to change. 1335 00:55:09,871 --> 00:55:15,659 ♪♪♪