You show up to your home
and you find other people living there.
-Correct. -She said she was gonna be out.
I'd already paid for the month.
Once you cash her check, then it is her home.
[narrator] Today on Tribunal Justice…
[theme music playing]
[narrator] This case was filed in Barron, Wisconsin.
Your Honor, this is case number 1057 on account
in the matter of Catron versus Wheeler.
Parties have been sworn in, you may be seated.
-[Judge Acker] Thank you, Byrd. -[Byrd] Mm-hmm.
Ms. Catron, you rented a home from the defendant for about four years.
And then you got a new job and you needed to end your lease early.
So you are suing for $8,550.
Mr. Wheeler, you say you have been renting properties for a number of years.
Some tenants are good, some tenants are not.
And the plaintiff, according to you,
was simply a non-stop litany of problems.
Yes, Your Honor.
Ms. Catron, you listed a number of problems with the tenancy.
You say you signed many leases.
And there were some leases that he didn't give you.
Tell me what's the relevance of your not having earlier leases.
They never gave me a lease all the way across the board.
-And with Wisconsin law… -[Judge Acker] How can that… Wait.
I'm not trying to give you short shrift,
but there's only one lease that was in effect.
Correct.
-And we have that lease. -Yes.
-And you have that lease. -Yes.
And according to that lease,
you moved out, what, six months before the lease terminated.
I moved out and started my new job on August 16th.
So that lease started when and ended when?
Started on June 1st.
-Of what year? -Of 2020.
-And it ended… -2021, sorry.
And it was to go until June 1st, 2022?
2022, correct.
[Judge Acker] Mr. Wheeler, you were apparently fine with that
because you had a new tenant coming in at some point, correct?
Correct, Your Honor.
Now, according to you, Ms. Catron,
another problem with this defendant is that
he charged you, what you describe as a non-refundable pet deposit.
It was written as a pet deposit in all of the leases that I signed,
-six years' worth. -How is written in the current lease?
In the current lease, as a pet deposit.
In the current lease is it described as a pet deposit or as pet rent?
[Blaine] In the next line below that it says non-refundable pet deposit.
[Judge Acker] But I saw it was referred to as a pet deposit,
but it seems as if you want to describe it now as pet rent.
You were moving out in August because of the new job.
And, according to your complaint,
the defendant said that you had to pay September.
Even though he had new tenants, but you had to pay September
because those tenants weren't going to be able to move in
-until after September, correct? -Correct.
So you paid September rent?
I did, including a late fee
because I didn't have my check book with me.
And then this completely bizarre situation happens
where you show up to your home,
that you've paid for for the month of September,
and you find your property out on the street,
-and other people living there. -Correct.
Tell us what happened.
I got there at two o'clock in the morning
and I walk in and the refrigerators are gone.
Every window's open, all the lights are on.
I didn't know who was in the house, so I did call the police.
The police officer walked around with me.
After that, on September 6th,
we had spent the weekend cleaning the house,
getting it deodorized, things like that.
We were just about to leave,
and as we're leaving, we see a car pull up in front of the house.
And three people start walking up to the front porch.
We were like, "Can we help you?"
"Well, we're the new tenants. He gave us a key.
We brought our paint chips
and the kids wanna pick out what color they're gonna do the bedroom."
So let me stop you right there.
Mr. Wheeler.
According to this plaintiff, she paid for September.
You told her that the new people were not going to be there
until after September.
-No… -And then when she went to her home,
there are new people there, running around,
trying to compare paint chips.
When did your new tenants arrive?
Okay, let me start…
In August, she said she was gonna be out by September.
So then we hustled around and found new renters
to move in September 1st.
But wait, that's a little different, sir, from what you said in your answer.
Because in your answer you said that she actually didn't leave
-until October 1st. -She didn't.
-We had… -So she was still there?
Yeah, so we had to find places for the other renters, and--
So, when did you actually move out?
We had all of our stuff out by the 16th.
On the 29th I met with the defendant's wife.
We went to the house, she brought a cleaning lady friend.
The cleaner said, "I can get this done by the 1st of September.
I could've hired somebody to do it."
The plaintiff says, "No,
I don't have tenants to move in on September 1st.
You have to pay September 1st's rent."
You don't dispute that she paid September's rent, do you?
-No. -Let me just ask you this.
Do you dispute that your new tenants were there
during the month of September
with access to the property and had they been given a key?
Yes, they'd been given a key.
Why would you give your new tenants a key
and let them come in September?
If she paid September rent,
then she's got use of the premises for that month.
It's still her home.
I don't believe she had paid for the September…
I just asked you if she did.
She did, but after she realized that she wasn't going to be able to get…
Okay, but did you take her money for September rent?
Yes.
So then that means it was her home for September.
You cannot give keys to a new tenant
when you're still collecting money from the last one.
That's not how it works.
We've got much more to get into, but I'm gonna give my colleagues
a dig at this. Judge DiMango?
[DiMango] Okay.
I'm confused. So let me start by…
When did you actually pay September's rent? What date?
The date I paid was on September 4th
-and I included… -[DiMango] Okay.
So you paid after you had the discussion
as to whether or not you were gonna stay in September?
-Correct. -By the time
she paid that rent you already had an agreement
with the new tenant that she could move in.
'Cause you assumed that she was following through
with her original statement to you,
which is, "I will be out in September."
-You're correct. -Is that correct?
-No.
When did you tell him, "I'm staying," in September?
-When I didn't have a choice… -You didn't.
You didn't.
-I never said… -That's the point.
[narrator] Coming up on Tribunal Justice…
You provided a police report today. What was the relevance of that?
[Angela] Because they were going in the house without notifying me
and then all of a sudden my lawn mower and my weed eater went missing.
[Judge Levy] You know, my concern is that
that wasn't even a suspicion that you made to the police department.
And if you did, they didn't put it in their report.
[narrator] Angela Catron is suing her landlord, Blaine Wheeler,
for a security and pet deposit.
Blaine claims Angela's pets caused more damage
than the amount of her deposits.
Let me clear this up in a way for you.
You were responsible on this lease until it ended.
Which would've been June.
He let you out.
He mitigated the damages that you would've owed.
If he didn't find somebody to rent to,
you would've been having to pay September, October,
until either you or he mitigated those damages
by finding a new tenant.
And the bottom line is, these people did not move in
because you, ultimately he deferred back to you to let you go back.
-Would that be correct? -[Blaine] That is correct.
[Judge DiMango] Okay, that's number one.
Number two,
this thing you keep talking about with the pet deposit.
The pet deposit thing was very strange in the Wisconsin law.
I must've read it ten times 'cause I couldn't figure out.
One, it is "legal" to charge pet rent in Wisconsin.
You kept saying to Judge Acker,
and I think this is what was getting confusing,
it said $25 deposit,
and you said but underneath it it says "non-refundable".
But did you fill out that underneath portion?
'Cause I don't see that on the lease.
You didn't fill out that is was non-refundable,
-did you? -No, we did not.
You made that pet deposit, let's call it a deposit, refundable.
So that means that's treated like every other security deposit.
But there is a distinction with the pet deposit.
Because…
And this is another wacky thing that I couldn't…
Carpet cleaning?
They make a big thing about carpet cleaning in Wisconsin.
-Are carpets a big thing there? -They do.
Oh, my God, there was, like, paragraphs on carpet cleaning.
And I'm just gonna briefly get into it.
Okay, so now,
excess carpet damage can be deducted from your security deposit.
And you're claiming you had to replace the whole carpet.
Yes, Your Honor.
So that would fall within the security deposit.
So whether we look at it as pet rent or pet deposit,
you are entitled to use that money to replace the carpet
and any damages that the pet caused.
That's how I read all this. So, that's it.
I wanna get into this… non-refundable pet business,
she doesn't have a current lease…
I saw now reason why you needed a current lease.
It shouldn't say the same thing as the upcoming lease.
It should have a higher rent. It should have different things.
It's done. That lease is gone.
You signed a new lease, it supersedes.
So, what we're looking at here is damages.
Did you do a walk-through with her?
No, she never did a walk-through.
-Did you ask her to do a walk-through? -Many times…
Do you have proof that you asked her?
In the text messages…
Mr. Wheeler, did you give her an itemized list within 21 days?
[Blaine] From what 21 days do we start from?
[Judge DiMango] October 1st.
Uh, I believe her thing was given on November 11th.
That's a bit late.
You have 21 days.
Now, 21 days after she moves out
or the end of the lease, whichever is later for you,
-is where the itemized list is required. -Well...
If you didn't do a walk-through with him and he asked you to
then it's hard for him to follow through with that.
And Wisconsin law does permit double the security deposit
for your failure to give an itemized list, sir.
Well…
Just direct me to those text messages before I pass.
[Blaine] Okay, uh…
-Page 15… -Is it on your evidence?
-Yes, on my evidence. Page 15… -Page 15.
…is the list that she gave us that she would agree to
-for the damages. -Yeah, I did see that.
On September 29th, you give him a list.
You say these are the things I'm willing to give you money for.
Did you not?
It's directly related to the things that he was charging me for
-on the security deposit. -Okay.
-I'm gonna pass to Judge Levy. -Okay.
-Thank you. -[Judge Levy] Thank you.
Ms. Catron, you provided a police report today?
Correct.
And what was the relevance of that?
[Angela] Because they were going in the house
without notifying me.
And then all of a sudden my lawn mower and my weed eater went missing.
Well, you know, my concern is that, you know,
you're trying to make that leap
that somehow they or the tenants were responsible for that.
But you never even made mention of that to the police department
when they prepared that report.
And if you did, they didn't put it in their report.
You would agree with that?
I would, except for it became relevant
and it was reported when I found out the tenants had the new key.
And I do have a voicemail message from the police officer.
He's the one that suggested it, not me.
-Oh, he suggested… -The police officer thought
that's what went on, but they couldn't prove it.
Well, you know, it's easy for the police department to say that.
Let me explain what happens.
Police departments don't wanna deal with complainants
if they can get rid of them.
So what they say to you is, this is what you should do
and go tell the judges in the small claims court
-and have a nice day. -Mm-hmm.
-Is that pretty much what happened? -Pretty much.
Yeah, I… You see.
-Not my first rodeo. -Yeah, no.
Um, here's the way I see it, Ms. Catron.
You clearly know the laws in the state of Wisconsin
regarding your rights and responsibilities as a tenant.
And I congratulate you on that. You really get it.
But the one thing that I couldn't help but notice
is that when you decided that you wanted to break your lease
-in July of 2021... -Mm-hmm?
you knew that you were still on the hook for the rest of that money,
unless the defendants went out of their way
and found another tenant.
-Right? -Yes,
but I also knew the people that wanted to move in.
I-I-I get that, but if the defendants wanted to be sneaky,
if they wanted to be, mmm, hurtful,
if they wanted to give you the business,
they'd have said, you know what, we're not happy with them,
we're gonna keep looking,
and you can keep paying us.
They could've. But they didn't.
What they did was that they found someone.
And you appreciated that, didn't you?
[Angela] I did, but I would not have been on the hook for the whole lease
by wonky Wisconsin law.
If there's a provision in the lease that includes attorney's fees,
the entire lease is void and unenforceable.
Yeah, well, you know, that would've been up to you
-to make that claim... -Right.
-and keep your fingers crossed... -Correct.
that a judge would've followed through with that.
But the point that I'm trying to make, though,
is that you appreciated the fact
that the defendant and his wife agreed to
-remove that financial responsibility. -Correct. Yes.
And that's when you guys were communicating with each other
via text.
For instance, July 28th,
on page 13 of the text that the defendant supplied,
he says, "I will need to show the house soon.
Is it in good shape?"
And that's him, at that time,
trying to reduce your financial responsibility
by finding another tenant on July 28th.
-That's what that text meant to you? -Mm-hmm.
On August 10th,
you say, "I'm sorry, things chaotic right now,
still haven't found a new place."
-Right. -Right.
And that job that you had in Illinois, that's why you were moving,
something had fallen through with that?
-No. -Oh, no? So…
I never had a place and that's why I agreed to the damages.
She said you do this and I will give you a good reference.
If you agree to these terms.
I-I get that. Hold on one sec.
[narrator] Coming up on Tribunal Justice…
You say that you were basically moved out the end of August.
Which means that when the new tenants had the key,
they weren't walking around, like, digging in all your stuff.
-Your stuff was mostly out at that time. -Mostly out.
You weren't living there. Were you sleeping there at night?
Not on a every day basis, no.
When was the last time you slept in the home?
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So, on August 10th, um, again, you're saying that things are chaotic,
"I still haven't found a place yet,
I can't even find a place to house my stuff,"
and he's not putting pressure on you in any way.
At least, that was in the text.
'Cause that's what I'm looking at right now. Would that be fair?
-For portions you probably have, yes. -On August 10th?
[Judge Levy] And then, on September 29th,
you say, "How about this?
Hire the new tenant to clean for $300.
Use the carpet I left upstairs bedroom and grab padding. Should be under 30.
The exact same carpet downstairs is on sale at Menards
-for 88 cents a square foot. -[Angela] Mm-hmm.
Have your friend install for $330.
As far as the screens, I will pay for five of them
to be repaired as a goodwill gesture.
Does that sound fair to you?"
You remember sending that text?
I do, but that's directly to the untruth of there not being a walk-through.
There was a walk-through on the 29th.
[Judge Levy] That's, I-I get that, but my point, though,
is that you laid out, very clearly, in that text
what you were prepared to pay for out of your security.
So, while it's true that Wisconsin law does require
certain things to be laid out crystal clear,
there's nothing in Wisconsin law that prohibits a tenant from waiving that.
-Correct. -If a tenant agrees
to pay certain things,
it would be a waste of time for any landlord to then go back
and put in writing what the agreement already was.
Especially when it is in writing. Do you understand?
-I do. -Thank you.
I have nothing further.
[Judge Acker] I wanna follow up on something.
Just so I'm clear, Ms. Catron,
you say that you were basically moved out
-the end of August. -Mm-hmm.
Which means that when the new tenants had the key
and if they had access to the property,
they weren't walking around, like, digging in all your stuff.
-Your stuff was mostly out at that time. -Mostly out.
You weren't living there. Were you sleeping there at night?
-We had an air mattress there… -But were you sleeping there?
Not on a every day basis, no.
So you were not still living there?
When was the last time you slept in the home?
I slept in there the night of the 29th.
-That night I slept… -Did you sleep there at any moment
-in September? -In September.
Yes, I did.
I slept there, and my sister, who was going up and doing painting trim
and things like that, slept there as well when we would go up there.
Mr. Wheeler, in your answer,
you say that the money you were collecting for the pets
-was pet rent? -Yes.
[Judge Acker] And not a deposit.
Explain to us why you want us to interpret that amount of money as pet rent.
Well, because…
a deposit, you know, is only paid one time.
The pet deposit is like a rent when they're paying it every month.
So you were paying this money every month?
-Correct. -It wasn't just one sum of money
that you paid at the outset of the tenancy?
No, because it changed with the number of pets.
Very good. I'm all good, thank you.
We're gonna retire to deliberate. Thank you both.
[Byrd] Court now stands in recess. Parties are excused.
Here's what I'm thinking.
Uh, I'd like to dismiss.
With respect to the pet deposit,
which is described in the lease as a deposit,
I'm prepared to treat that as pet rent.
So, I think that even though the words say "deposit",
it wasn't a deposit.
I mean, when you pay something every month, it's rent.
So I don't think she's entitled to that back.
Now, interesting point about him giving the new tenants the key,
because I thought that the point that you made, Patricia,
was really spot on.
Because he thought she was leaving, that's why he gave them the key.
I don't think he did anything inappropriate.
He gave the new people the key
when he thought she was leaving.
And she said she was mostly out in any event.
So, I'm inclined to dismiss.
[Judge DiMango] Okay. I'm totally on board.
I think it was pretty obvious too when I was questioning.
I agree, first of all, that the September rent…
I mean, he did her a favor. He could've dragged his feet.
He could've said listen, I'll mitigate, you mitigate.
You're staying here, you owe me till June. I can do whatever I want.
But no, instead, he came in with someone.
So I think that the September rent was due and owing to him,
as would any other month have been afterwards for that.
With regard to the pet money,
I clearly thought that that was a pet rent as well.
It was paid every month, so it was tacked on to the rental.
And I think that we should dismiss her case.
I think that she denied him the opportunity
to do anything further with regard to damages and all.
I don't think he stole anything from her either.
I agree 100%. I have nothing to add. 100%.
So we are very unanimous.
-Great. -Yes.
Court is back in session. I remind parties you're still under oath.
-[Judge Acker] Thank you, Byrd. -[Byrd] Mm-hmm.
Ms. Catron, uh, we are unanimous
and we're dismissing your case.
Um, I'm going to explain to you why.
Even though the lease says pet deposit,
the practice was they were collected every month, they were treated as rent.
Deposits you collect at the outset.
So the money was, in practice, treated as rent.
And we are going to so treat it.
Uh, with respect to your request for your security deposit back,
in fact, double,
we're also denying that.
As Judge Levy pointed out,
a tenant can waive that provision
whereby the landlord has to provide the itemized list,
and you waived it.
Furthermore, while the defendant did give the new tenants that key,
that was at a time that you'd indicated that you were going to be out.
So we don't find that he acted at all improperly.
But, frankly, to come to court and suggest that you were treated wrongly,
when the landlord worked really hard
to let you out of the lease six months early,
um, that is not a claim that we're prepared to accept.
So your complaint is denied. Good luck to you.
[Byrd] This case is concluded. Parties are excused.
You may step out.
I have nothing against the defendant.
We could've had this all settled out.
I just wanted a list of the receipts,
what did you charge me for, let's work this out amicably.
Everything she was saying, there wasn't half truth.
The $300 worth of cleaning, they walked out on the walk-through.
Well, she wouldn't do the walk-through
and, yes, we did charge her to clean the house.
She said you agree to this, or I'm not giving you a good reference.
And not be as nice a guy.
Read the laws.
Especially in a wonky state, like Wisconsin.
And for landlords, follow the law.
[narrator] Does someone owe you money?
Let Tribunal Justice decide your case.
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