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00:00:00,700 --> 00:00:03,066
He owes you money
for those rims and wheels.

2
00:00:03,133 --> 00:00:05,100
-Yes.
-Honestly, I thought they were a gift.

3
00:00:05,166 --> 00:00:06,667
I guess because she loved me.

4
00:00:06,734 --> 00:00:08,900
The agreement was always
that he was supposed to pay me back.

5
00:00:08,967 --> 00:00:10,433
I'm not making that up. He knows it.

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00:00:10,500 --> 00:00:13,100
Here's the problem though; you're a liar.

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00:00:13,166 --> 00:00:14,400
And you know you're a liar, don't you?

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00:00:14,467 --> 00:00:15,533
That's your opinion.

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00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:16,633
You sure about that?

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00:00:16,700 --> 00:00:19,900
[narrator]
Today on Tribunal Justice...

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[theme music playing]

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This case was filed
in Savannah, Georgia.

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[Byrd] Your Honor, this is
case #1104 on the calendar

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in the matter of Sanders vs. Mack.
Parties have been sworn in.

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00:00:50,333 --> 00:00:51,400
You may be seated.

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00:00:51,467 --> 00:00:52,867
-[Acker] Thank you, Byrd.
-[Byrd] Mm-hmm.

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00:00:52,934 --> 00:00:55,233
Ms. Sanders and Mr. Mack.

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00:00:55,300 --> 00:00:58,867
So, at one point, the two of you
were married, then you divorced.

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00:00:58,934 --> 00:01:02,166
But after your divorce,
you decided to rekindle.

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00:01:02,233 --> 00:01:04,967
You moved in together,
you were splitting the rent.

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00:01:05,033 --> 00:01:10,066
And you, ma'am, say that the Defendant
wanted some new rims and tires.

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00:01:10,133 --> 00:01:13,033
You said, "All right,
I'll put them on my credit card."

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He was to pay you back.

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00:01:14,834 --> 00:01:16,600
After that, you decided

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00:01:16,667 --> 00:01:18,900
that you wanted to take
a lesser paying job.

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00:01:18,967 --> 00:01:21,600
Because of the help you were getting
from the Defendant,

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00:01:21,667 --> 00:01:24,166
you were able to do that,
and then the two of you broke up.

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You then experienced a tragedy.
Your son passed away.

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I'm sorry for your loss. And I think I can
speak on behalf of my colleagues.

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00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,166
However, what you tell us
is that the Defendant still said

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00:01:36,233 --> 00:01:41,333
that he was going to pay $400 a month
for six months towards your rent.

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00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,967
And then, after that, he was going
to continue paying you $400 a month

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00:01:46,033 --> 00:01:49,533
until the costs of the rims
and the tires were paid off.

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00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,300
According to your complaint,
you believed that the Defendant

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00:01:53,366 --> 00:01:55,433
then thought that you were doing all right

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00:01:55,500 --> 00:01:58,500
and he no longer had
to fulfill his obligations towards you.

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00:01:58,567 --> 00:02:03,767
You're now suing him for $5,519
because you say he owes you

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00:02:03,834 --> 00:02:05,133
for three months of rent

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00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,667
and also, the remaining balance
of the wheels and the tires.

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00:02:08,734 --> 00:02:13,834
Mr. Mack, your defense is that
you agreed to help her with the rent

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00:02:13,900 --> 00:02:15,567
because the two of you were together.

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00:02:15,633 --> 00:02:19,767
Now, what you suggest is that
after this unfortunate tragedy,

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00:02:19,834 --> 00:02:22,867
the additional payments slipped
your mind, you just forgot.

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00:02:22,934 --> 00:02:27,066
But the Plaintiff,
at some point came to your home,

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00:02:27,133 --> 00:02:30,367
became threatening and antagonistic.
You had to call the police.

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00:02:30,433 --> 00:02:32,800
You were trying to be indulgent
because of the tragedy.

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00:02:32,867 --> 00:02:35,500
Your position now is that
you don't owe her any money.

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00:02:35,567 --> 00:02:38,600
-She's filed a lawsuit; she's on her own.
-Yes, ma'am.

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00:02:38,667 --> 00:02:44,000
Now, 2018, you get divorced.
2021, you move back in together.

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00:02:44,066 --> 00:02:47,700
This is when you wanted
the rims and tires.

51
00:02:47,767 --> 00:02:51,300
-Yes.
-These were going on a 2017 Dodge Ram.

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00:02:51,367 --> 00:02:53,433
Are these the fancy rims and tires?

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00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:54,533
Yes.

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00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:59,533
[Acker] And I note, Ms. Sanders,
that you've submitted a receipt.

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00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,467
-You put this on your credit card?
-Yes.

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00:03:01,533 --> 00:03:05,967
Now, why is this just not something nice
that you did for your partner,

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00:03:06,033 --> 00:03:07,533
who you were back together with?

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00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,500
Um, well, first, we didn't discuss
that was gonna be something nice,

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00:03:10,567 --> 00:03:12,166
that I did for him, 'cause I would do...

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00:03:12,233 --> 00:03:14,333
-[Acker] But you did it.
-I did, because he asked me to.

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00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,433
So, I did it. I'm nice like that
and he knows that.

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00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:20,100
And the agreement was always
he was supposed to pay me back.

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00:03:20,166 --> 00:03:23,300
-But, um, it was supposed to be...
-But talk to me about that agreement.

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00:03:23,367 --> 00:03:25,900
Because I don't necessarily see evidence
of that agreement.

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00:03:25,966 --> 00:03:27,266
Okay. So, it was a verbal agreement.

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00:03:27,333 --> 00:03:30,367
And then, he started making
the payments through CashApp.

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00:03:30,433 --> 00:03:32,533
So, I have those receipts.

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00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,066
And then, my daughter,
she also witnessed us discussing it

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00:03:35,133 --> 00:03:36,466
when he decided to move out.

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00:03:36,533 --> 00:03:38,200
Did you tell her
you were gonna pay her back?

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00:03:38,266 --> 00:03:39,567
No, ma'am, not for the wheels and tires.

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00:03:39,633 --> 00:03:41,166
You never said
you were gonna pay her back?

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00:03:41,233 --> 00:03:43,033
-No, ma'am.
-Were you ever making payments

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00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:44,834
-to her on CashApp?
-Yes.

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00:03:44,900 --> 00:03:47,033
I was making CashApp payments
on the six months of rent

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00:03:47,100 --> 00:03:48,133
that I agreed to pay.

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00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,834
[Acker] Let's look at the CashApp payments
that you submitted.

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00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:53,734
Ma'am, show me which payments
from the Defendant

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00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:58,033
represent payments to you for the wheels,
as opposed to the rent.

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00:03:58,100 --> 00:04:00,633
He didn't make the payment
for the wheels and tires yet

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00:04:00,700 --> 00:04:02,066
because the six months wasn't up.

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00:04:02,133 --> 00:04:04,266
The agreement was,
once he fulfilled the six months...

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00:04:04,333 --> 00:04:06,533
[Acker] So, what was this agreement?

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00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,166
Once he fulfilled the six months of rent,
then he would continue to pay

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00:04:09,233 --> 00:04:11,333
until that balance was paid off
for the wheels and tires.

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00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,900
And you're saying that
such agreement never existed.

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00:04:13,967 --> 00:04:15,200
-No, ma'am. I was under the impression...
-[Acker] Never existed.

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00:04:15,300 --> 00:04:16,700
...those rims and tires were a gift.

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00:04:16,767 --> 00:04:20,065
And at the time that
you got these rims and tires,

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00:04:20,132 --> 00:04:22,200
the two of you were splitting the rent?

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00:04:22,266 --> 00:04:25,166
Uh, I was giving her like $1,000 a month,
I believe it was.

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00:04:25,233 --> 00:04:27,700
[Acker] And after the breakup,
do you tell her,

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00:04:27,767 --> 00:04:30,967
Mr. Mack, that you are still
going to help her pay the rent?

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00:04:31,033 --> 00:04:33,800
-Uh, yes, about a month or so later.
-Yes, you did.

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00:04:33,867 --> 00:04:35,100
-[Acker] Yes, you did.
-Yes.

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00:04:35,166 --> 00:04:38,100
[Acker] Why did you stop making payments
toward the rent?

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00:04:38,166 --> 00:04:41,100
Honestly, uh, the end of...
what was it, August,

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00:04:41,166 --> 00:04:44,667
beginning of September, I totally forgot
about it because her son passed away.

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00:04:44,734 --> 00:04:46,332
So, I ended up moving back in, I think.

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00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,300
Well, I'm not gonna say moved back in,
but I was there a lot.

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00:04:49,367 --> 00:04:50,767
I was helping her out.
And I told her,

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00:04:50,834 --> 00:04:51,967
it totally slipped my mind.

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00:04:52,033 --> 00:04:53,567
-[Acker] So, you forgot about it.
-I did.

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00:04:53,633 --> 00:04:57,100
And then, at some point, you remember it.
Why not pay the rent?

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00:04:57,166 --> 00:04:59,867
When I remembered,
at that point I was being sued.

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00:04:59,933 --> 00:05:01,934
So, I said I wasn't gonna pay anything.

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00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:03,600
And the police officer also told me that.

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00:05:03,667 --> 00:05:06,900
He said, "Hey, look, don't pay anything
else because..." He didn't tell me why.

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00:05:06,967 --> 00:05:10,200
The fact that somebody sues you
doesn't mean that you don't have to do it.

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00:05:10,266 --> 00:05:13,233
You could've given her the money
and then showed up in court and said,

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you don't have a case,
I already did

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00:05:14,767 --> 00:05:16,200
-what I'm supposed to do.
-Mm-hmm.

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00:05:16,266 --> 00:05:17,934
How did the police get involved?

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00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,400
Well, initially the police got involved...
One night I invited a visitor over.

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00:05:22,467 --> 00:05:26,100
And she ended up coming over to my place
and blocking my truck in.

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-So, I called the police...
-[Acker] When was this?

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00:05:28,233 --> 00:05:29,967
[LaThomas] About the first
or second week of October.

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00:05:30,033 --> 00:05:32,467
-When did your son pass away?
-August 29th.

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00:05:32,533 --> 00:05:34,567
[Acker] When did he not give you money
for the rent?

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00:05:34,633 --> 00:05:36,200
He didn't give me money for October.

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00:05:36,266 --> 00:05:39,400
And October is the same month
that we have the altercation

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00:05:39,467 --> 00:05:41,033
and you block the vehicle in.

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00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:42,533
-Correct.
-[Acker] Why'd you do that?

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00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:44,900
I went over there to talk to him
about the money.

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00:05:44,967 --> 00:05:47,000
Um, because he said he wanted
to go back home.

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00:05:47,066 --> 00:05:49,533
Because he was living over there
since my son passed away.

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00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,667
So, he wanted to go back home
and I thought that was kinda strange.

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00:05:52,734 --> 00:05:54,700
So, when I got over there, he was like,

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00:05:54,767 --> 00:05:56,600
cursing me out, "I need to leave."

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I didn't know why he was acting like that.

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Then, next thing I know,
he called the police on me.

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00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:03,500
Because I'm like, "No, you're gonna
talk to me, tell me what's going on,"

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00:06:03,567 --> 00:06:06,600
because I just lost my son.
He know I didn't want to be alone.

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00:06:06,667 --> 00:06:09,867
Now you playing games, that's not right
to do that to somebody.

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00:06:09,934 --> 00:06:11,967
And then you call the police on me?
That was wrong.

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00:06:12,033 --> 00:06:14,300
He know he owes me money
for the, um, for the wheels and tires.

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00:06:14,367 --> 00:06:16,266
He doesn't want to pay for it.
He doesn't want to be embarrassed.

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00:06:16,332 --> 00:06:17,633
That's what that's about.

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00:06:17,700 --> 00:06:19,500
You may have, in your head, wanted him to.

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00:06:19,567 --> 00:06:22,600
You may have had
a deep expectation for this money.

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00:06:22,667 --> 00:06:27,066
But that does not
a legal case make.

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00:06:27,133 --> 00:06:30,633
And look at the facts here.
At the time of this transaction,

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00:06:30,700 --> 00:06:33,800
the two of you are together,
you're sharing expenses.

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00:06:33,867 --> 00:06:36,266
Maybe you owe half,
but maybe it's a gift.

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00:06:36,332 --> 00:06:39,066
Now, when you agree to do something
and you don't do it

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00:06:39,133 --> 00:06:42,233
and the person sues you,
you can't just throw a tantrum

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00:06:42,300 --> 00:06:45,667
because somebody files a lawsuit
because of a failing,

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00:06:45,734 --> 00:06:49,433
and then say, well now,
I'm not gonna do it at all. Judge DiMango.

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00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:52,933
[DiMango] Ms. Sanders, I just want to say
that I think that sometimes

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00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,900
when people's lives are
kinda collapsing around them,

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00:06:55,967 --> 00:06:58,033
losing a son, losing a relationship,

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00:06:58,100 --> 00:07:00,667
feeling jilted by not getting money,

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00:07:00,734 --> 00:07:02,200
or cheating or whatever,

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00:07:02,266 --> 00:07:04,367
they do things
that are outside their character.

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00:07:04,433 --> 00:07:06,233
That doesn't affect how I would view you.

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00:07:06,300 --> 00:07:08,500
We kind of have a way of finding out

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00:07:08,567 --> 00:07:11,700
who you're about in this courtroom,
so, just so you know.

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00:07:11,767 --> 00:07:14,867
So, there's a lot of discrepancies
in the testimony I've just heard.

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00:07:14,934 --> 00:07:18,100
And actually, ma'am, more from you.
So, let's start off.

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00:07:18,166 --> 00:07:21,100
You said the last time he paid you rent
was in September.

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00:07:21,166 --> 00:07:22,867
-Correct? That's what you testified to.
-[Lisa] Correct.

162
00:07:22,934 --> 00:07:26,633
He paid August 28th, the day
right before my son passed away.

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00:07:26,700 --> 00:07:28,867
He owes for October,
November and December.

164
00:07:28,934 --> 00:07:31,266
So, sir, you owe for three months.

165
00:07:31,332 --> 00:07:33,967
You agreed. Even in your papers
you say it.

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00:07:34,033 --> 00:07:36,367
But you didn't pay rent
for three months, right?

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00:07:36,433 --> 00:07:38,734
Four hundred times three
is how much? Quick.

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00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:40,400
-Twelve hundred. Mm-hmm.
-[DiMango] Very good.

169
00:07:40,467 --> 00:07:42,967
The real issue for me is the rims.

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00:07:43,033 --> 00:07:44,266
First of all, that's a good looking truck.

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00:07:44,332 --> 00:07:45,367
[LaThomas]
Thank you.

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00:07:45,433 --> 00:07:47,332
[DiMango] Why would a woman
go out and buy you those things?

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00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,332
Of all the gifts to give somebody,
why would she buy you rims and tires?

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[narrator]
Coming up on Tribunal Justice...

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00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,367
What the Plaintiff here just said,

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00:07:57,433 --> 00:08:00,233
she had already fully
made payments on those

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00:08:00,300 --> 00:08:03,300
and that's why she was asking you
for reimbursement.

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00:08:03,367 --> 00:08:04,900
Yes, it was always the agreement.

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00:08:04,967 --> 00:08:07,700
Here's the problem, though,
Ms. Sanders, you're a liar.

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00:08:07,767 --> 00:08:09,867
Remember what you did
in May of 2022?

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00:08:09,934 --> 00:08:10,967
No.

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00:08:11,033 --> 00:08:12,767
Do you know a bankruptcy lawyer?

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00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,767
[narrator] Lisa Sanders
is suing her ex-husband,

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00:08:22,834 --> 00:08:25,300
LaThomas Mack, for unpaid rent

185
00:08:25,367 --> 00:08:28,700
and the cost of rims
and tires for his truck.

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00:08:28,767 --> 00:08:31,900
LaThomas claims Lisa is overreacting

187
00:08:31,967 --> 00:08:35,299
and the rims and tires
were always a gift.

188
00:08:35,366 --> 00:08:37,633
Why would a woman go out
and buy you those things?

189
00:08:37,700 --> 00:08:39,500
Of all the gifts to give somebody.

190
00:08:39,567 --> 00:08:41,834
Why would she buy you rims and tires?

191
00:08:41,900 --> 00:08:43,332
I guess because she loved me.

192
00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,300
Aww, that's cute, but I don't think
that's necessarily true.

193
00:08:47,367 --> 00:08:48,767
I don't have any other answer.

194
00:08:48,834 --> 00:08:52,233
Well, maybe she didn't buy them for you
as a gift unless you asked her for them.

195
00:08:52,300 --> 00:08:54,834
And you said you'd pay her back.
How 'bout that as an answer?

196
00:08:54,900 --> 00:08:56,266
-That's not the answer, though.
-Why not?

197
00:08:56,333 --> 00:08:58,367
Because I never asked her
to buy anything for me.

198
00:08:58,433 --> 00:09:01,400
How did she know what to get?
There must be a million different types

199
00:09:01,467 --> 00:09:03,667
-of rims and tires.
-Because I told her about 'em.

200
00:09:03,734 --> 00:09:06,800
You sat there and you
had this conversation with this woman

201
00:09:06,867 --> 00:09:09,600
who you knew loved you,
who was taking you back in

202
00:09:09,667 --> 00:09:12,467
and you were like,
let me put this idea in her head.

203
00:09:12,533 --> 00:09:14,233
-[LaThomas] No, that was not the case.
-Yeah, come on.

204
00:09:14,300 --> 00:09:16,667
-That was not the case.
-[DiMango] You're smiling at it.

205
00:09:16,734 --> 00:09:19,667
-Yeah, because that was not the case.
-You're smiling, why?

206
00:09:19,734 --> 00:09:21,967
I'm not that entertaining.
Why are you smiling?

207
00:09:22,033 --> 00:09:23,800
I was talking about the fact that, hey,
I was going to make

208
00:09:23,867 --> 00:09:25,600
-some alterations to my vehicle.
-[DiMango] Mm-hmm.

209
00:09:25,667 --> 00:09:27,867
And she started looking up
rims and tires.

210
00:09:27,934 --> 00:09:30,567
I was like, "Hey, look,
I got this, I'll take care of it."

211
00:09:30,633 --> 00:09:32,433
So, she kept sending me pictures
back and forth.

212
00:09:32,500 --> 00:09:34,934
She kept sending you pictures.
You got any of that on your phone?

213
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,200
-[LaThomas] Uhh...
-'Cause I didn't see any evidence of that.

214
00:09:37,266 --> 00:09:38,967
I'm sure I do, somewhere back in there...

215
00:09:39,033 --> 00:09:40,533
-You're sure it's in there?
-Yeah, I'm sure it's there.

216
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,165
-Think it is?
-I think it is.

217
00:09:42,233 --> 00:09:45,100
I think I'm gonna switch over to her
and maybe harass her a little bit.

218
00:09:45,165 --> 00:09:48,100
While I'm doing that, why don't
you find proof of what you just said.

219
00:09:48,165 --> 00:09:49,233
Okay.

220
00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:52,900
Now, if you bought them for him and
you wanted the money back on them,

221
00:09:52,967 --> 00:09:54,800
there'd be some evidence of an agreement.

222
00:09:54,867 --> 00:09:58,600
Because from January, the date
when they were purchased in January,

223
00:09:58,667 --> 00:10:01,934
until he made the agreement
with you to pay the rent,

224
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,667
when Judge Acker asked you,
you said, yeah, he did make payments

225
00:10:04,734 --> 00:10:06,867
for rent and rims and tires.

226
00:10:06,934 --> 00:10:08,967
But he never made you
a double payment, ever,

227
00:10:09,033 --> 00:10:10,734
based on what we see here.

228
00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,100
So, why would you let it go
for almost a year

229
00:10:14,166 --> 00:10:16,700
if you made an agreement with him
to pay you back.

230
00:10:16,767 --> 00:10:19,400
Especially when you kept breaking up
back and forth.

231
00:10:19,467 --> 00:10:20,467
Where's your agreement?

232
00:10:20,533 --> 00:10:22,934
It wasn't a year, um,
'cause when I got it,

233
00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,500
he was making extra payments
from the CashApp,

234
00:10:26,567 --> 00:10:27,633
which I didn't provide that.

235
00:10:27,700 --> 00:10:29,633
I just gave the evidence
that he didn't pay.

236
00:10:29,700 --> 00:10:31,133
But he could pull all that up.

237
00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,266
He was giving extra money
to go towards it because it was a lease.

238
00:10:34,333 --> 00:10:37,467
[DiMango] But it's not his job, it's yours
to show me where he was...

239
00:10:37,533 --> 00:10:38,600
Well, I understand, but...

240
00:10:38,667 --> 00:10:40,700
[DiMango] It was a lease.
I saw it was a lease.

241
00:10:40,767 --> 00:10:42,734
So, he was giving me extra money,
so I didn't have

242
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,266
to pay that much into the lease.
So, I paid that monthly.

243
00:10:46,333 --> 00:10:48,433
And that was a part of the money
he was giving me.

244
00:10:48,500 --> 00:10:51,767
But where do we see any of this?
Why wouldn't you just kind of say,

245
00:10:51,834 --> 00:10:55,433
well, normally he gives me $1,100,
see here he gave me $1,500.

246
00:10:55,500 --> 00:10:59,066
-We don't have any of that.
-Okay, well, he still payed it.

247
00:10:59,133 --> 00:11:01,100
So, all of this is included
inside the rent...

248
00:11:01,166 --> 00:11:04,100
So, how much has he paid you
towards those rims and tires?

249
00:11:04,166 --> 00:11:07,667
Um, I think just... I don't even know
how much he paid me for 'em.

250
00:11:07,734 --> 00:11:11,533
Because if you're telling us that he paid
you and you're suing for the full value...

251
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,533
which you are, 'cause I've
looked at the documents here.

252
00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,000
$419 a month for four months.
That's the tires.

253
00:11:18,066 --> 00:11:22,033
And then, the rims are pricey.
The rims were $2,640.

254
00:11:22,100 --> 00:11:24,967
[Lisa] Right. And that's not even
the interest they add on it.

255
00:11:25,033 --> 00:11:26,867
So, that's why I just gave
the exact amount.

256
00:11:26,934 --> 00:11:30,600
Because he was already paying something
but he didn't pay for all of it.

257
00:11:30,667 --> 00:11:33,367
'Cause interest goes on that,
and it's high interest.

258
00:11:33,433 --> 00:11:36,100
I know you're saying this
and I want to believe you

259
00:11:36,165 --> 00:11:38,500
because, you know,
you've had things going tough.

260
00:11:38,567 --> 00:11:41,967
-Yeah.
-But I don't see evidence of payment.

261
00:11:42,033 --> 00:11:43,367
So, whatcha got going there?

262
00:11:43,433 --> 00:11:45,700
I mean, I just have one
where she sent me a picture

263
00:11:45,767 --> 00:11:46,834
and I sent her one back

264
00:11:46,900 --> 00:11:48,667
of the actual rims
that I have on my truck.

265
00:11:48,734 --> 00:11:51,467
What is she, clairvoyant?
I mean, is she a mind reader?

266
00:11:51,533 --> 00:11:54,800
How does she know what this...
And you're saying this is what I want?

267
00:11:54,867 --> 00:11:56,433
We were on the phone
having a conversation.

268
00:11:56,500 --> 00:11:57,734
[DiMango]
Was there a final decision on that?

269
00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,300
-[LaThomas] Yes.
-[DiMango] What's that?

270
00:11:59,367 --> 00:12:00,967
She ended up buying those rims.

271
00:12:01,033 --> 00:12:05,734
Ma'am... Dun-dun-dun dun.
Judge Levy.

272
00:12:06,734 --> 00:12:10,400
[Levy] If I understand you correctly,
Ms. Sanders, what you're saying is that

273
00:12:10,467 --> 00:12:13,633
he needs to be a man of his word

274
00:12:13,700 --> 00:12:18,700
and pay you the $4,319
for those rims and tires.

275
00:12:18,767 --> 00:12:20,467
-And he won't do it, correct?
-Yes.

276
00:12:20,533 --> 00:12:23,266
[Levy] Because you've already
paid off all of those charges

277
00:12:23,333 --> 00:12:26,266
-and you're out of pocket that money.
-Yes, that's correct.

278
00:12:26,333 --> 00:12:30,433
And Mr. Mack, you're saying that you're
not gonna do it because it was a gift

279
00:12:30,500 --> 00:12:34,367
and not something that was
known to you to be a loan

280
00:12:34,433 --> 00:12:36,700
-and something that you had to pay back.
-Correct.

281
00:12:36,767 --> 00:12:38,467
[Levy] But you don't have
any proof of that.

282
00:12:38,533 --> 00:12:40,533
-I don't.
-Who is this over here, by the way?

283
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,165
This is my daughter, Matice.

284
00:12:42,233 --> 00:12:43,600
[Levy] Matice, would you mind
stepping up, please?

285
00:12:43,667 --> 00:12:46,600
-[Matice] Yes, Your Honor.
-Matice, do you know anything about

286
00:12:46,667 --> 00:12:49,000
these rims and tires
that your mom's talking about?

287
00:12:49,066 --> 00:12:50,133
Yes, Your Honor.

288
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:51,633
Tell me what you know about those.

289
00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:55,133
Um, back in June of this year,
LaThomas and my mother,

290
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,834
they talked about him paying her
for the rims and the rent,

291
00:12:58,900 --> 00:13:00,200
the $400 for the rent.

292
00:13:00,266 --> 00:13:01,900
[Levy] I'm sorry,
you said that was in June?

293
00:13:01,967 --> 00:13:03,767
-That conversation?
-[Matice] Yes.

294
00:13:03,834 --> 00:13:05,767
And were you present
for that conversation?

295
00:13:05,834 --> 00:13:08,066
-Yes, Your Honor.
-Was that face to face or over the phone?

296
00:13:08,133 --> 00:13:10,333
Um, they were talking face to face.

297
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,400
[Levy] And where did
that conversation take place?

298
00:13:12,467 --> 00:13:14,200
At my mother's house.

299
00:13:14,266 --> 00:13:15,834
All right, thank you.

300
00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:18,233
[Levy] What do you have
to say for yourself, Mr. Mack?

301
00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:21,600
Honestly, I thought they were a gift.
Thought the rims and tires were a gift.

302
00:13:21,667 --> 00:13:25,266
But what the Plaintiff here just said,
corroborated by her daughter,

303
00:13:25,333 --> 00:13:30,600
is that by June of this year, she had
already fully made payments on those.

304
00:13:30,667 --> 00:13:35,200
And that's why she was asking you
for reimbursement. That's right, ma'am?

305
00:13:35,266 --> 00:13:37,033
Yes, it was always the agreement.

306
00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:41,500
Here's the problem though, Ms. Sanders...
You're a liar.

307
00:13:41,567 --> 00:13:43,934
-And you know you're a liar, don't you?
-Nope.

308
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,433
-[Levy] You sure about that?
-I'm sure.

309
00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:51,200
In June of 2022, you say
you made full payment

310
00:13:51,266 --> 00:13:54,567
on that credit card debt
for those wheels and rims.

311
00:13:54,633 --> 00:13:55,667
Yes.

312
00:13:55,734 --> 00:13:58,467
-Remember what you did in May of 2022?
-No.

313
00:13:58,533 --> 00:14:00,633
With respect to those rims and tires?

314
00:14:01,633 --> 00:14:03,300
-You don't remember?
-[Lisa] No.

315
00:14:03,367 --> 00:14:05,900
Do you know a bankruptcy lawyer?

316
00:14:05,967 --> 00:14:08,567
Those didn't go on there
because those were a lease.

317
00:14:08,633 --> 00:14:11,166
-[sighs]
-[Lisa] You can't put a lease on there.

318
00:14:11,233 --> 00:14:13,367
-Ms. Sanders...
-[Lisa] You cannot.

319
00:14:13,433 --> 00:14:15,500
So I had to pay those off.

320
00:14:15,567 --> 00:14:19,800
Ms. Sanders, the problem with your story

321
00:14:19,867 --> 00:14:24,533
is that it is easily contradicted
by the bankruptcy petition

322
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,633
that you filed on May 13th, 2022

323
00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:33,133
in the United States Bankruptcy Court
in the Southern District of Georgia

324
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,000
in which you signed,
under the penalties of perjury,

325
00:14:37,066 --> 00:14:43,066
that you owed for those tires, $1,164.

326
00:14:43,133 --> 00:14:47,700
For rims, $4,721.

327
00:14:47,767 --> 00:14:50,734
You were looking to discharge that debt.

328
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:56,533
You listed $77,000 worth
of unsecured debt

329
00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:02,333
that was discharged in November,
including the lease for the rims

330
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,900
and the credit card debt for the tires.

331
00:15:04,967 --> 00:15:06,633
-[Levy] So why--?
-No.

332
00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:08,400
Don't tell me no, that...

333
00:15:08,467 --> 00:15:11,200
Well, I'm telling you no
because my tires are on there.

334
00:15:11,266 --> 00:15:16,567
And they know that I purchased tires
as well, so that's for my vehicle.

335
00:15:16,633 --> 00:15:19,500
Let me put it this way:
You're the Plaintiff in this proceeding.

336
00:15:19,567 --> 00:15:22,667
And you know that as the Plaintiff,
it's your burden to prove

337
00:15:22,734 --> 00:15:26,700
that you paid off all that debt
for those rims and those tires

338
00:15:26,767 --> 00:15:30,000
by June of 2022. Show it to me.

339
00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:33,734
[narrator]
Coming up on Tribunal Justice...

340
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,367
You really thought you were gonna
come in here and BS us?

341
00:15:37,433 --> 00:15:43,033
Why don't you tell everyone how many times
you've filed bankruptcy since 2005.

342
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:46,734
Let me help you out and refresh
your recollection, Ms. Sanders.

343
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,734
And you ought
to be ashamed of yourself.

344
00:15:53,333 --> 00:15:55,467
[theme music playing]

345
00:15:57,367 --> 00:16:00,500
You're the Plaintiff in this proceeding
and you know that as the Plaintiff

346
00:16:00,567 --> 00:16:03,934
it's your burden to prove
that you paid off all that debt

347
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:09,367
for those rims and those tires
by June of 2022. Show it to me.

348
00:16:09,433 --> 00:16:13,767
Okay, well, I didn't bring that, so...
He owes me for that.

349
00:16:13,834 --> 00:16:17,800
As a matter of fact, you were asked,
Mr. Mack, why would the Plaintiff

350
00:16:17,867 --> 00:16:20,233
buy you rims and do it as a gift?

351
00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:22,500
-And you said, I don't know, she loves me.
-[DiMango scoffs]

352
00:16:22,567 --> 00:16:24,200
-That's what you said, right?
-Yes.

353
00:16:24,266 --> 00:16:26,500
-[Levy] There's another answer to that.
-What's the answer?

354
00:16:26,567 --> 00:16:30,633
'Cause she had absolutely
no expectation of paying that off.

355
00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:33,800
She was simply gonna file bankruptcy
and discharge that debt.

356
00:16:33,867 --> 00:16:36,533
That's how you do business,
Ms. Sanders, isn't it?

357
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:37,800
That's your opinion.

358
00:16:37,867 --> 00:16:39,233
-[Levy] In my opinion?
-Yes.

359
00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:44,800
Why don't you tell everyone how many times
you've filed bankruptcy since 2005.

360
00:16:46,867 --> 00:16:50,333
You really thought you were gonna
come in here and BS us,

361
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,033
and try to get him to pay you stuff
that you discharged in bankruptcy?

362
00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:58,667
Let me help you out and
refresh your recollection, Ms. Sanders.

363
00:16:58,734 --> 00:17:02,266
2005, you filed Chapter 13.

364
00:17:02,333 --> 00:17:05,633
2008, you filed Chapter 13.

365
00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:11,567
2010, you filed a Chapter 13.
2014, you filed a Chapter 7.

366
00:17:11,633 --> 00:17:16,467
So, what you do is you charge
as much as you can on credit cards

367
00:17:16,532 --> 00:17:21,266
and then you go to bankruptcy court
and you stiff everybody.

368
00:17:21,333 --> 00:17:25,099
That's how you do business,
and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

369
00:17:25,165 --> 00:17:27,733
-No, I shouldn't, because if I'm in debt
-[Levy] Yeah, you should.

370
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,133
-...I'm gonna get help.
-I got nothing further.

371
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,000
-You don't have to but if I'm in debt...
-[DiMango] If you don't have questions...

372
00:17:31,066 --> 00:17:33,166
we're gonna retire to deliberate.
Thank you both.

373
00:17:33,233 --> 00:17:36,066
[Byrd] Court now stands in recess.
Parties are excused.

374
00:17:39,133 --> 00:17:42,967
I feel like he owes the rent,
I'm pretty clear about that.

375
00:17:43,033 --> 00:17:47,767
I have to say, I had planned to start this
deliberation by saying to the two of you,

376
00:17:47,834 --> 00:17:52,533
I would really like to find
a legally justifiable way

377
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,300
to order him to pay
for these rims and tires.

378
00:17:55,367 --> 00:17:59,100
But I'm not so inclined to do that,
and I don't feel like I'd have any takers.

379
00:17:59,166 --> 00:18:03,467
I actually think they were a gift.
I think that they got back together.

380
00:18:03,533 --> 00:18:07,133
When she said she'd actually
bought her own rims and tires,

381
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,033
I think, Adam, at one point when you
were pointing out some of the disclosures

382
00:18:11,100 --> 00:18:13,967
on her filing, she was like,
"No, that was for my rims and tires."

383
00:18:14,033 --> 00:18:15,533
She knows rims and tires,

384
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,233
but even if she didn't,
they were together, it was a gift.

385
00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:21,100
I see it as a gift.
I wouldn't order him to repay that.

386
00:18:21,166 --> 00:18:24,433
I would order him to repay her
for the three months of rent.

387
00:18:24,500 --> 00:18:26,967
I mean, the fact that you get mad
'cause somebody sues you

388
00:18:27,033 --> 00:18:28,400
doesn't mean that
you don't owe them anymore.

389
00:18:28,467 --> 00:18:30,333
Yeah, I think he was
pretty much in agreement.

390
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,500
Whether he folded on that
or whether he just thought

391
00:18:32,567 --> 00:18:34,066
he was gonna prevail in the end,

392
00:18:34,133 --> 00:18:38,066
I think he owes her the three months
of rent, that's about $1,200.

393
00:18:38,133 --> 00:18:41,333
But I think she lied when she said,
"Oh, no, those were my rims and tires."

394
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,000
I mean, how many rims and tires
does woman go out and buy?

395
00:18:44,066 --> 00:18:48,367
But when she said that she took out a loan
and she was doing all this,

396
00:18:48,433 --> 00:18:52,033
the bottom line is, she was asking
for exactly the cost of what they were:

397
00:18:52,100 --> 00:18:55,633
$1,680 for four tires
and $2,640 for the rims.

398
00:18:55,700 --> 00:18:58,667
So, had she really paid
all this extra money,

399
00:18:58,734 --> 00:19:00,600
she would've at least
been asking for that.

400
00:19:00,667 --> 00:19:04,166
So, I knew right then and there
that she was not telling the truth

401
00:19:04,233 --> 00:19:05,400
about what was going on.

402
00:19:05,467 --> 00:19:08,400
And until you came up
with the bankruptcy,

403
00:19:08,467 --> 00:19:11,333
which explained why she did this,
it made sense.

404
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,233
So, at this point,
I had proof by preponderance.

405
00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:17,033
And then, after you finished,
I had proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

406
00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:18,734
No money for the rims or tires.

407
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:23,934
I've said it before, you come into court
and you lie under oath,

408
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,500
you perjure yourself.

409
00:19:25,567 --> 00:19:27,233
Perjury includes

410
00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:31,200
not just saying something
that someone says is not true,

411
00:19:31,266 --> 00:19:34,767
but having evidence,
like a bankruptcy petition,

412
00:19:34,834 --> 00:19:40,066
which listed $77,000 worth of debt,
including the leasing company

413
00:19:40,133 --> 00:19:43,900
that she leased these rims through,
not her rims, his,

414
00:19:43,967 --> 00:19:47,333
and then you lie about that,
that is a perjury charge.

415
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,133
You need corroboration and we have it.

416
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:50,600
So, when that happens,

417
00:19:50,667 --> 00:19:54,100
when a litigant comes in,
a Plaintiff comes in and does that,

418
00:19:54,166 --> 00:19:57,133
then she doesn't get
the other money, either.

419
00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:58,667
That's my position.

420
00:19:58,734 --> 00:20:02,600
I don't care whether he said he was gonna
make those payments and he did it.

421
00:20:02,667 --> 00:20:06,600
My position is, you come into court
and you perjure yourself,

422
00:20:06,667 --> 00:20:09,667
you get zippo. Nothing.

423
00:20:09,734 --> 00:20:12,400
That's my position.
I don't mind dissenting.

424
00:20:12,467 --> 00:20:16,367
But it is offensive.
This is how this woman does business.

425
00:20:16,433 --> 00:20:19,567
She racks up huge credit card bills

426
00:20:19,633 --> 00:20:22,500
and then simply discharges them
in bankruptcy.

427
00:20:22,567 --> 00:20:28,567
And she came in here, and but for
the background research that we did,

428
00:20:28,633 --> 00:20:30,133
she woulda gotten away with it.

429
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,700
We need to send her
with her tail between her legs

430
00:20:33,767 --> 00:20:37,467
back to where she's from
and hopefully learns the lesson

431
00:20:37,533 --> 00:20:39,967
don't lie when you go to court.

432
00:20:40,033 --> 00:20:44,233
So, you basically, are saying
we should deny her the $1,200

433
00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:45,767
as a punitive measure.

434
00:20:45,834 --> 00:20:48,900
I love sending that sort of message.

435
00:20:48,967 --> 00:20:51,367
I just don't know if it's an overreach

436
00:20:51,433 --> 00:20:54,066
in this case, for me.
I have to think about that.

437
00:20:54,133 --> 00:20:56,867
If you want to think about it,
perhaps this is a way to look at it.

438
00:20:56,934 --> 00:20:57,934
Okay, give me a better way.

439
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,500
-'Cause I thought about it in my head...
-[Levy] I get it.

440
00:21:00,567 --> 00:21:03,533
and I basically...
pushed it out of my head

441
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,266
'cause I said listen,
she proved her case.

442
00:21:05,333 --> 00:21:07,400
The charges that
we always give juries are you can

443
00:21:07,467 --> 00:21:09,500
-believe some of what they say...
-[Acker] Correct.

444
00:21:09,567 --> 00:21:13,233
-or you can disregard everything...
-You can take a piece of it.

445
00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:17,000
Once I went through that game in my head
with that, you know, with the law,

446
00:21:17,066 --> 00:21:19,333
I said, well, do I need to penalize her?

447
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,800
Now that I hear these eight bankruptcy
proceedings, six bankruptcies...

448
00:21:23,867 --> 00:21:28,633
The bankruptcy laws are in place to
help people who get behind the eight ball,

449
00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:32,000
who, based upon medical debt
and student loan debt,

450
00:21:32,066 --> 00:21:35,500
and a change in circumstances regarding
employment and things of that nature,

451
00:21:35,567 --> 00:21:36,667
it gives them a way out.

452
00:21:36,734 --> 00:21:38,667
And there are people
who wait a long time

453
00:21:38,734 --> 00:21:43,000
to get heard by a bankruptcy judge
to get those debts discharged.

454
00:21:43,066 --> 00:21:45,800
And that's where that would be relevant
in this proceeding.

455
00:21:45,867 --> 00:21:50,233
And so, what she's doing is she's
clogging up the bankruptcy proceedings.

456
00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:54,300
She's clogging up the civil proceedings,
like this one, making false claims,

457
00:21:54,367 --> 00:21:58,433
and yet she still expects us to come in
and to force the Defendant

458
00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:02,633
to pay her money, even though
she is a master manipulator...

459
00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:04,133
Let me ask you this one question...

460
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,934
She made some material misrepresentations
in this case about her claim.

461
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,500
I said to her, look, I'm not sure
that you've proven that this is a loan,

462
00:22:12,567 --> 00:22:15,133
it's a gift. And then she doubled down,
she doubled down.

463
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,000
She made some material misrepresentations.

464
00:22:17,066 --> 00:22:19,900
Let me say one other thing.
Had she just come in with the rent,

465
00:22:19,967 --> 00:22:23,333
and we still had proof that she had
all of these prior proceedings

466
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,400
and had her debt for other things
than this case,

467
00:22:26,467 --> 00:22:29,200
discharged in bankruptcy,
would we feel the same way?

468
00:22:29,266 --> 00:22:32,767
I don't think so. I think it's
because the misrepresentations

469
00:22:32,834 --> 00:22:36,767
pertaining to an attempt by her
to get thousands of dollars...

470
00:22:36,834 --> 00:22:38,633
what is a fraudulent part of the claim.

471
00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:41,767
So therefore, then, we should perhaps
then just dismiss the whole case.

472
00:22:41,834 --> 00:22:43,567
I could live with that, based on that.

473
00:22:43,633 --> 00:22:46,367
-I can live with that.
-Dismissed, unanimous.

474
00:22:50,567 --> 00:22:52,133
[Byrd] Court is back in session.

475
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,000
Parties are reminded
you're still under oath.

476
00:22:54,066 --> 00:22:57,433
Thank you, Byrd. We've deliberated
and we've reached a unanimous verdict.

477
00:22:57,500 --> 00:23:01,266
You know, when you come to court,
there's an obligation to tell the truth.

478
00:23:01,333 --> 00:23:03,033
And when you don't,

479
00:23:03,100 --> 00:23:05,800
courts have the discretion
to issue sanctions.

480
00:23:05,867 --> 00:23:08,400
And there are different types of sanctions
that a court can award.

481
00:23:08,467 --> 00:23:11,300
They can dismiss part of a case,
they can dismiss all of a case.

482
00:23:11,367 --> 00:23:14,433
And ma'am, we are unanimous in believing

483
00:23:14,500 --> 00:23:18,734
that you came to court on a $5,519 claim

484
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,166
and you made material misrepresentations

485
00:23:21,233 --> 00:23:23,700
regarding $4,300 of that claim.

486
00:23:23,767 --> 00:23:25,500
You said you paid it all off.

487
00:23:25,567 --> 00:23:28,300
Judge DiMango indicated
at one point in the case,

488
00:23:28,367 --> 00:23:31,834
you know, why would the Plaintiff
undertake such a massive obligation,

489
00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:33,867
such a massive debt obligation?

490
00:23:33,934 --> 00:23:35,467
Well, you weren't honest with us

491
00:23:35,533 --> 00:23:39,100
about what that debt was, you weren't
honest with us about those payments.

492
00:23:39,166 --> 00:23:42,467
And as a sanction,
not only are we dismissing that claim,

493
00:23:42,533 --> 00:23:44,166
your claim for the rims and tires,

494
00:23:44,233 --> 00:23:46,633
we are dismissing
your case in its entirety.

495
00:23:46,700 --> 00:23:49,133
And that's our unanimous judgment.
Thank you.

496
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,033
[Byrd] This case is now concluded.
Parties are excused, you may step out.

497
00:23:56,767 --> 00:23:59,133
If he did what he was supposed to,
I wouldn't have to sue him.

498
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,567
I was not aware
that she filed bankruptcy, at all.

499
00:24:01,633 --> 00:24:02,633
I paid it off.

500
00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:05,000
As far as the rims and tires,
I thought they were a gift,

501
00:24:05,066 --> 00:24:06,533
so I'm not gonna pay anything on that.

502
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:07,633
He's gonna pay me.

503
00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:09,667
I'm not financially responsible
for anything.

504
00:24:09,734 --> 00:24:11,834
I'm gonna talk to him about it.
He's gonna pay me.

505
00:24:11,900 --> 00:24:14,600
She's seeking funds from me
that was already taken care of.

506
00:24:14,667 --> 00:24:16,000
I'm gonna get my money from him.

507
00:24:16,066 --> 00:24:19,133
If they say it's a gift, it's a gift,
get it in writing.

508
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,767
I'm gonna take it further
because he's gonna pay me my money.

509
00:24:21,834 --> 00:24:24,567
No, she's not gonna be happy at all.
She's not gonna be happy.

510
00:24:24,633 --> 00:24:26,867
[narrator] Does someone owe you money?

511
00:24:26,934 --> 00:24:30,367
Let Tribunal Justice decide your case.

512
00:24:30,433 --> 00:24:33,400
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513
00:24:33,467 --> 00:24:35,467
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