He owes you money for those rims and wheels.
-Yes. -Honestly, I thought they were a gift.
I guess because she loved me.
The agreement was always that he was supposed to pay me back.
I'm not making that up. He knows it.
Here's the problem though; you're a liar.
And you know you're a liar, don't you?
That's your opinion.
You sure about that?
[narrator] Today on Tribunal Justice...
[theme music playing]
This case was filed in Savannah, Georgia.
[Byrd] Your Honor, this is case #1104 on the calendar
in the matter of Sanders vs. Mack. Parties have been sworn in.
You may be seated.
-[Acker] Thank you, Byrd. -[Byrd] Mm-hmm.
Ms. Sanders and Mr. Mack.
So, at one point, the two of you were married, then you divorced.
But after your divorce, you decided to rekindle.
You moved in together, you were splitting the rent.
And you, ma'am, say that the Defendant wanted some new rims and tires.
You said, "All right, I'll put them on my credit card."
He was to pay you back.
After that, you decided
that you wanted to take a lesser paying job.
Because of the help you were getting from the Defendant,
you were able to do that, and then the two of you broke up.
You then experienced a tragedy. Your son passed away.
I'm sorry for your loss. And I think I can speak on behalf of my colleagues.
However, what you tell us is that the Defendant still said
that he was going to pay $400 a month for six months towards your rent.
And then, after that, he was going to continue paying you $400 a month
until the costs of the rims and the tires were paid off.
According to your complaint, you believed that the Defendant
then thought that you were doing all right
and he no longer had to fulfill his obligations towards you.
You're now suing him for $5,519 because you say he owes you
for three months of rent
and also, the remaining balance of the wheels and the tires.
Mr. Mack, your defense is that you agreed to help her with the rent
because the two of you were together.
Now, what you suggest is that after this unfortunate tragedy,
the additional payments slipped your mind, you just forgot.
But the Plaintiff, at some point came to your home,
became threatening and antagonistic. You had to call the police.
You were trying to be indulgent because of the tragedy.
Your position now is that you don't owe her any money.
-She's filed a lawsuit; she's on her own. -Yes, ma'am.
Now, 2018, you get divorced. 2021, you move back in together.
This is when you wanted the rims and tires.
-Yes. -These were going on a 2017 Dodge Ram.
Are these the fancy rims and tires?
Yes.
[Acker] And I note, Ms. Sanders, that you've submitted a receipt.
-You put this on your credit card? -Yes.
Now, why is this just not something nice that you did for your partner,
who you were back together with?
Um, well, first, we didn't discuss that was gonna be something nice,
that I did for him, 'cause I would do...
-[Acker] But you did it. -I did, because he asked me to.
So, I did it. I'm nice like that and he knows that.
And the agreement was always he was supposed to pay me back.
-But, um, it was supposed to be... -But talk to me about that agreement.
Because I don't necessarily see evidence of that agreement.
Okay. So, it was a verbal agreement.
And then, he started making the payments through CashApp.
So, I have those receipts.
And then, my daughter, she also witnessed us discussing it
when he decided to move out.
Did you tell her you were gonna pay her back?
No, ma'am, not for the wheels and tires.
You never said you were gonna pay her back?
-No, ma'am. -Were you ever making payments
-to her on CashApp? -Yes.
I was making CashApp payments on the six months of rent
that I agreed to pay.
[Acker] Let's look at the CashApp payments that you submitted.
Ma'am, show me which payments from the Defendant
represent payments to you for the wheels, as opposed to the rent.
He didn't make the payment for the wheels and tires yet
because the six months wasn't up.
The agreement was, once he fulfilled the six months...
[Acker] So, what was this agreement?
Once he fulfilled the six months of rent, then he would continue to pay
until that balance was paid off for the wheels and tires.
And you're saying that such agreement never existed.
-No, ma'am. I was under the impression... -[Acker] Never existed.
...those rims and tires were a gift.
And at the time that you got these rims and tires,
the two of you were splitting the rent?
Uh, I was giving her like $1,000 a month, I believe it was.
[Acker] And after the breakup, do you tell her,
Mr. Mack, that you are still going to help her pay the rent?
-Uh, yes, about a month or so later. -Yes, you did.
-[Acker] Yes, you did. -Yes.
[Acker] Why did you stop making payments toward the rent?
Honestly, uh, the end of... what was it, August,
beginning of September, I totally forgot about it because her son passed away.
So, I ended up moving back in, I think.
Well, I'm not gonna say moved back in, but I was there a lot.
I was helping her out. And I told her,
it totally slipped my mind.
-[Acker] So, you forgot about it. -I did.
And then, at some point, you remember it. Why not pay the rent?
When I remembered, at that point I was being sued.
So, I said I wasn't gonna pay anything.
And the police officer also told me that.
He said, "Hey, look, don't pay anything else because..." He didn't tell me why.
The fact that somebody sues you doesn't mean that you don't have to do it.
You could've given her the money and then showed up in court and said,
you don't have a case, I already did
-what I'm supposed to do. -Mm-hmm.
How did the police get involved?
Well, initially the police got involved... One night I invited a visitor over.
And she ended up coming over to my place and blocking my truck in.
-So, I called the police... -[Acker] When was this?
[LaThomas] About the first or second week of October.
-When did your son pass away? -August 29th.
[Acker] When did he not give you money for the rent?
He didn't give me money for October.
And October is the same month that we have the altercation
and you block the vehicle in.
-Correct. -[Acker] Why'd you do that?
I went over there to talk to him about the money.
Um, because he said he wanted to go back home.
Because he was living over there since my son passed away.
So, he wanted to go back home and I thought that was kinda strange.
So, when I got over there, he was like,
cursing me out, "I need to leave."
I didn't know why he was acting like that.
Then, next thing I know, he called the police on me.
Because I'm like, "No, you're gonna talk to me, tell me what's going on,"
because I just lost my son. He know I didn't want to be alone.
Now you playing games, that's not right to do that to somebody.
And then you call the police on me? That was wrong.
He know he owes me money for the, um, for the wheels and tires.
He doesn't want to pay for it. He doesn't want to be embarrassed.
That's what that's about.
You may have, in your head, wanted him to.
You may have had a deep expectation for this money.
But that does not a legal case make.
And look at the facts here. At the time of this transaction,
the two of you are together, you're sharing expenses.
Maybe you owe half, but maybe it's a gift.
Now, when you agree to do something and you don't do it
and the person sues you, you can't just throw a tantrum
because somebody files a lawsuit because of a failing,
and then say, well now, I'm not gonna do it at all. Judge DiMango.
[DiMango] Ms. Sanders, I just want to say that I think that sometimes
when people's lives are kinda collapsing around them,
losing a son, losing a relationship,
feeling jilted by not getting money,
or cheating or whatever,
they do things that are outside their character.
That doesn't affect how I would view you.
We kind of have a way of finding out
who you're about in this courtroom, so, just so you know.
So, there's a lot of discrepancies in the testimony I've just heard.
And actually, ma'am, more from you. So, let's start off.
You said the last time he paid you rent was in September.
-Correct? That's what you testified to. -[Lisa] Correct.
He paid August 28th, the day right before my son passed away.
He owes for October, November and December.
So, sir, you owe for three months.
You agreed. Even in your papers you say it.
But you didn't pay rent for three months, right?
Four hundred times three is how much? Quick.
-Twelve hundred. Mm-hmm. -[DiMango] Very good.
The real issue for me is the rims.
First of all, that's a good looking truck.
[LaThomas] Thank you.
[DiMango] Why would a woman go out and buy you those things?
Of all the gifts to give somebody, why would she buy you rims and tires?
[narrator] Coming up on Tribunal Justice...
What the Plaintiff here just said,
she had already fully made payments on those
and that's why she was asking you for reimbursement.
Yes, it was always the agreement.
Here's the problem, though, Ms. Sanders, you're a liar.
Remember what you did in May of 2022?
No.
Do you know a bankruptcy lawyer?
[narrator] Lisa Sanders is suing her ex-husband,
LaThomas Mack, for unpaid rent
and the cost of rims and tires for his truck.
LaThomas claims Lisa is overreacting
and the rims and tires were always a gift.
Why would a woman go out and buy you those things?
Of all the gifts to give somebody.
Why would she buy you rims and tires?
I guess because she loved me.
Aww, that's cute, but I don't think that's necessarily true.
I don't have any other answer.
Well, maybe she didn't buy them for you as a gift unless you asked her for them.
And you said you'd pay her back. How 'bout that as an answer?
-That's not the answer, though. -Why not?
Because I never asked her to buy anything for me.
How did she know what to get? There must be a million different types
-of rims and tires. -Because I told her about 'em.
You sat there and you had this conversation with this woman
who you knew loved you, who was taking you back in
and you were like, let me put this idea in her head.
-[LaThomas] No, that was not the case. -Yeah, come on.
-That was not the case. -[DiMango] You're smiling at it.
-Yeah, because that was not the case. -You're smiling, why?
I'm not that entertaining. Why are you smiling?
I was talking about the fact that, hey, I was going to make
-some alterations to my vehicle. -[DiMango] Mm-hmm.
And she started looking up rims and tires.
I was like, "Hey, look, I got this, I'll take care of it."
So, she kept sending me pictures back and forth.
She kept sending you pictures. You got any of that on your phone?
-[LaThomas] Uhh... -'Cause I didn't see any evidence of that.
I'm sure I do, somewhere back in there...
-You're sure it's in there? -Yeah, I'm sure it's there.
-Think it is? -I think it is.
I think I'm gonna switch over to her and maybe harass her a little bit.
While I'm doing that, why don't you find proof of what you just said.
Okay.
Now, if you bought them for him and you wanted the money back on them,
there'd be some evidence of an agreement.
Because from January, the date when they were purchased in January,
until he made the agreement with you to pay the rent,
when Judge Acker asked you, you said, yeah, he did make payments
for rent and rims and tires.
But he never made you a double payment, ever,
based on what we see here.
So, why would you let it go for almost a year
if you made an agreement with him to pay you back.
Especially when you kept breaking up back and forth.
Where's your agreement?
It wasn't a year, um, 'cause when I got it,
he was making extra payments from the CashApp,
which I didn't provide that.
I just gave the evidence that he didn't pay.
But he could pull all that up.
He was giving extra money to go towards it because it was a lease.
[DiMango] But it's not his job, it's yours to show me where he was...
Well, I understand, but...
[DiMango] It was a lease. I saw it was a lease.
So, he was giving me extra money, so I didn't have
to pay that much into the lease. So, I paid that monthly.
And that was a part of the money he was giving me.
But where do we see any of this? Why wouldn't you just kind of say,
well, normally he gives me $1,100, see here he gave me $1,500.
-We don't have any of that. -Okay, well, he still payed it.
So, all of this is included inside the rent...
So, how much has he paid you towards those rims and tires?
Um, I think just... I don't even know how much he paid me for 'em.
Because if you're telling us that he paid you and you're suing for the full value...
which you are, 'cause I've looked at the documents here.
$419 a month for four months. That's the tires.
And then, the rims are pricey. The rims were $2,640.
[Lisa] Right. And that's not even the interest they add on it.
So, that's why I just gave the exact amount.
Because he was already paying something but he didn't pay for all of it.
'Cause interest goes on that, and it's high interest.
I know you're saying this and I want to believe you
because, you know, you've had things going tough.
-Yeah. -But I don't see evidence of payment.
So, whatcha got going there?
I mean, I just have one where she sent me a picture
and I sent her one back
of the actual rims that I have on my truck.
What is she, clairvoyant? I mean, is she a mind reader?
How does she know what this... And you're saying this is what I want?
We were on the phone having a conversation.
[DiMango] Was there a final decision on that?
-[LaThomas] Yes. -[DiMango] What's that?
She ended up buying those rims.
Ma'am... Dun-dun-dun dun. Judge Levy.
[Levy] If I understand you correctly, Ms. Sanders, what you're saying is that
he needs to be a man of his word
and pay you the $4,319 for those rims and tires.
-And he won't do it, correct? -Yes.
[Levy] Because you've already paid off all of those charges
-and you're out of pocket that money. -Yes, that's correct.
And Mr. Mack, you're saying that you're not gonna do it because it was a gift
and not something that was known to you to be a loan
-and something that you had to pay back. -Correct.
[Levy] But you don't have any proof of that.
-I don't. -Who is this over here, by the way?
This is my daughter, Matice.
[Levy] Matice, would you mind stepping up, please?
-[Matice] Yes, Your Honor. -Matice, do you know anything about
these rims and tires that your mom's talking about?
Yes, Your Honor.
Tell me what you know about those.
Um, back in June of this year, LaThomas and my mother,
they talked about him paying her for the rims and the rent,
the $400 for the rent.
[Levy] I'm sorry, you said that was in June?
-That conversation? -[Matice] Yes.
And were you present for that conversation?
-Yes, Your Honor. -Was that face to face or over the phone?
Um, they were talking face to face.
[Levy] And where did that conversation take place?
At my mother's house.
All right, thank you.
[Levy] What do you have to say for yourself, Mr. Mack?
Honestly, I thought they were a gift. Thought the rims and tires were a gift.
But what the Plaintiff here just said, corroborated by her daughter,
is that by June of this year, she had already fully made payments on those.
And that's why she was asking you for reimbursement. That's right, ma'am?
Yes, it was always the agreement.
Here's the problem though, Ms. Sanders... You're a liar.
-And you know you're a liar, don't you? -Nope.
-[Levy] You sure about that? -I'm sure.
In June of 2022, you say you made full payment
on that credit card debt for those wheels and rims.
Yes.
-Remember what you did in May of 2022? -No.
With respect to those rims and tires?
-You don't remember? -[Lisa] No.
Do you know a bankruptcy lawyer?
Those didn't go on there because those were a lease.
-[sighs] -[Lisa] You can't put a lease on there.
-Ms. Sanders... -[Lisa] You cannot.
So I had to pay those off.
Ms. Sanders, the problem with your story
is that it is easily contradicted by the bankruptcy petition
that you filed on May 13th, 2022
in the United States Bankruptcy Court in the Southern District of Georgia
in which you signed, under the penalties of perjury,
that you owed for those tires, $1,164.
For rims, $4,721.
You were looking to discharge that debt.
You listed $77,000 worth of unsecured debt
that was discharged in November, including the lease for the rims
and the credit card debt for the tires.
-[Levy] So why--? -No.
Don't tell me no, that...
Well, I'm telling you no because my tires are on there.
And they know that I purchased tires as well, so that's for my vehicle.
Let me put it this way: You're the Plaintiff in this proceeding.
And you know that as the Plaintiff, it's your burden to prove
that you paid off all that debt for those rims and those tires
by June of 2022. Show it to me.
[narrator] Coming up on Tribunal Justice...
You really thought you were gonna come in here and BS us?
Why don't you tell everyone how many times you've filed bankruptcy since 2005.
Let me help you out and refresh your recollection, Ms. Sanders.
And you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
[theme music playing]
You're the Plaintiff in this proceeding and you know that as the Plaintiff
it's your burden to prove that you paid off all that debt
for those rims and those tires by June of 2022. Show it to me.
Okay, well, I didn't bring that, so... He owes me for that.
As a matter of fact, you were asked, Mr. Mack, why would the Plaintiff
buy you rims and do it as a gift?
-And you said, I don't know, she loves me. -[DiMango scoffs]
-That's what you said, right? -Yes.
-[Levy] There's another answer to that. -What's the answer?
'Cause she had absolutely no expectation of paying that off.
She was simply gonna file bankruptcy and discharge that debt.
That's how you do business, Ms. Sanders, isn't it?
That's your opinion.
-[Levy] In my opinion? -Yes.
Why don't you tell everyone how many times you've filed bankruptcy since 2005.
You really thought you were gonna come in here and BS us,
and try to get him to pay you stuff that you discharged in bankruptcy?
Let me help you out and refresh your recollection, Ms. Sanders.
2005, you filed Chapter 13.
2008, you filed Chapter 13.
2010, you filed a Chapter 13. 2014, you filed a Chapter 7.
So, what you do is you charge as much as you can on credit cards
and then you go to bankruptcy court and you stiff everybody.
That's how you do business, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
-No, I shouldn't, because if I'm in debt -[Levy] Yeah, you should.
-...I'm gonna get help. -I got nothing further.
-You don't have to but if I'm in debt... -[DiMango] If you don't have questions...
we're gonna retire to deliberate. Thank you both.
[Byrd] Court now stands in recess. Parties are excused.
I feel like he owes the rent, I'm pretty clear about that.
I have to say, I had planned to start this deliberation by saying to the two of you,
I would really like to find a legally justifiable way
to order him to pay for these rims and tires.
But I'm not so inclined to do that, and I don't feel like I'd have any takers.
I actually think they were a gift. I think that they got back together.
When she said she'd actually bought her own rims and tires,
I think, Adam, at one point when you were pointing out some of the disclosures
on her filing, she was like, "No, that was for my rims and tires."
She knows rims and tires,
but even if she didn't, they were together, it was a gift.
I see it as a gift. I wouldn't order him to repay that.
I would order him to repay her for the three months of rent.
I mean, the fact that you get mad 'cause somebody sues you
doesn't mean that you don't owe them anymore.
Yeah, I think he was pretty much in agreement.
Whether he folded on that or whether he just thought
he was gonna prevail in the end,
I think he owes her the three months of rent, that's about $1,200.
But I think she lied when she said, "Oh, no, those were my rims and tires."
I mean, how many rims and tires does woman go out and buy?
But when she said that she took out a loan and she was doing all this,
the bottom line is, she was asking for exactly the cost of what they were:
$1,680 for four tires and $2,640 for the rims.
So, had she really paid all this extra money,
she would've at least been asking for that.
So, I knew right then and there that she was not telling the truth
about what was going on.
And until you came up with the bankruptcy,
which explained why she did this, it made sense.
So, at this point, I had proof by preponderance.
And then, after you finished, I had proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
No money for the rims or tires.
I've said it before, you come into court and you lie under oath,
you perjure yourself.
Perjury includes
not just saying something that someone says is not true,
but having evidence, like a bankruptcy petition,
which listed $77,000 worth of debt, including the leasing company
that she leased these rims through, not her rims, his,
and then you lie about that, that is a perjury charge.
You need corroboration and we have it.
So, when that happens,
when a litigant comes in, a Plaintiff comes in and does that,
then she doesn't get the other money, either.
That's my position.
I don't care whether he said he was gonna make those payments and he did it.
My position is, you come into court and you perjure yourself,
you get zippo. Nothing.
That's my position. I don't mind dissenting.
But it is offensive. This is how this woman does business.
She racks up huge credit card bills
and then simply discharges them in bankruptcy.
And she came in here, and but for the background research that we did,
she woulda gotten away with it.
We need to send her with her tail between her legs
back to where she's from and hopefully learns the lesson
don't lie when you go to court.
So, you basically, are saying we should deny her the $1,200
as a punitive measure.
I love sending that sort of message.
I just don't know if it's an overreach
in this case, for me. I have to think about that.
If you want to think about it, perhaps this is a way to look at it.
Okay, give me a better way.
-'Cause I thought about it in my head... -[Levy] I get it.
and I basically... pushed it out of my head
'cause I said listen, she proved her case.
The charges that we always give juries are you can
-believe some of what they say... -[Acker] Correct.
-or you can disregard everything... -You can take a piece of it.
Once I went through that game in my head with that, you know, with the law,
I said, well, do I need to penalize her?
Now that I hear these eight bankruptcy proceedings, six bankruptcies...
The bankruptcy laws are in place to help people who get behind the eight ball,
who, based upon medical debt and student loan debt,
and a change in circumstances regarding employment and things of that nature,
it gives them a way out.
And there are people who wait a long time
to get heard by a bankruptcy judge to get those debts discharged.
And that's where that would be relevant in this proceeding.
And so, what she's doing is she's clogging up the bankruptcy proceedings.
She's clogging up the civil proceedings, like this one, making false claims,
and yet she still expects us to come in and to force the Defendant
to pay her money, even though she is a master manipulator...
Let me ask you this one question...
She made some material misrepresentations in this case about her claim.
I said to her, look, I'm not sure that you've proven that this is a loan,
it's a gift. And then she doubled down, she doubled down.
She made some material misrepresentations.
Let me say one other thing. Had she just come in with the rent,
and we still had proof that she had all of these prior proceedings
and had her debt for other things than this case,
discharged in bankruptcy, would we feel the same way?
I don't think so. I think it's because the misrepresentations
pertaining to an attempt by her to get thousands of dollars...
what is a fraudulent part of the claim.
So therefore, then, we should perhaps then just dismiss the whole case.
I could live with that, based on that.
-I can live with that. -Dismissed, unanimous.
[Byrd] Court is back in session.
Parties are reminded you're still under oath.
Thank you, Byrd. We've deliberated and we've reached a unanimous verdict.
You know, when you come to court, there's an obligation to tell the truth.
And when you don't,
courts have the discretion to issue sanctions.
And there are different types of sanctions that a court can award.
They can dismiss part of a case, they can dismiss all of a case.
And ma'am, we are unanimous in believing
that you came to court on a $5,519 claim
and you made material misrepresentations
regarding $4,300 of that claim.
You said you paid it all off.
Judge DiMango indicated at one point in the case,
you know, why would the Plaintiff undertake such a massive obligation,
such a massive debt obligation?
Well, you weren't honest with us
about what that debt was, you weren't honest with us about those payments.
And as a sanction, not only are we dismissing that claim,
your claim for the rims and tires,
we are dismissing your case in its entirety.
And that's our unanimous judgment. Thank you.
[Byrd] This case is now concluded. Parties are excused, you may step out.
If he did what he was supposed to, I wouldn't have to sue him.
I was not aware that she filed bankruptcy, at all.
I paid it off.
As far as the rims and tires, I thought they were a gift,
so I'm not gonna pay anything on that.
He's gonna pay me.
I'm not financially responsible for anything.
I'm gonna talk to him about it. He's gonna pay me.
She's seeking funds from me that was already taken care of.
I'm gonna get my money from him.
If they say it's a gift, it's a gift, get it in writing.
I'm gonna take it further because he's gonna pay me my money.
No, she's not gonna be happy at all. She's not gonna be happy.
[narrator] Does someone owe you money?
Let Tribunal Justice decide your case.
Find us on social media at Tribunal Justice.
[theme music playing]