[Judge Levy] You were looking for a contractor.
Correct.
You told her that you did have a license.
Not at all.
You never told her that you had a license?
No, sir.
"I am licensed as well."
[Judge DiMango] You're a scammer.
[narrator] Today on Tribunal Justice...
This case was filed in Spokane, Washington.
Your Honor, this is case number 1012 on account
in the matter of Winney versus Serrano.
Parties have been sworn in. You may be seated.
-Thank you, Byrd. -You're welcome.
Ms. Winney, you were looking for a contractor
to do some home improvements.
And you posted a request on Facebook.
-Is that correct? -Correct.
And Mr. Serrano, you responded,
indicating that you were available for Ms. Winney. Is that right?
-That I was available, yes, sir. -And my understanding,
from reading your complaint and your answer,
was there were basically two things that you needed done.
One was the removal of some exterior siding and bricks
from your home
and replacing them with new materials.
And then the other had to do with the removal of some attic insulation,
Vermiculite.
And the Vermiculite, as well as the siding, contained asbestos,
and that was something that you, sir, Mr. Serrano,
-were able to handle for the job. Right? -Yes, sir.
Okay. So, Ms. Winney,
prior to the written contract being prepared and signed,
what was your understanding of what the amount of money
that were going to be charged by the defendant for that job?
So my understanding was I was supposed to put,
it was supposed to be $9,000 to remove the asbestos siding,
including putting on the new indigo blue siding,
with insulation.
And removing the brick that was on the bottom of the house.
[Judge Levy] So you gave him a deposit for $3,500?
Yes.
Then something happened where you said, "I don't want you to do this job anymore."
Correct.
And you are suing Mr. Serrano for the return of your $3,500.
Correct.
[Judge Levy] That money was paid on May 24th.
And at the time that you bid on this job,
or you advised Ms. Winney, rather, what the expenses were gonna be,
how much this whole job was gonna cost,
had you seen the house yet?
I didn't give her a direct number until I had seen the house.
[Judge Levy] Hold on.
I reviewed the text messages and I don't wanna waste time
'cause there were quite a few.
So when you say, sir, Mr. Serrano, that you didn't give her a number,
-you did. -There were numbers down, I guess.
And the number that you gave her was $11,000, $11,300.
-Right? -Yes.
She told me the house was for her mother.
When I heard that, I said I'd give her a discount.
[Judge Levy] Forget about the fact... You gave her a discount?
I did, sir. I gave her a discount on used product. That's what it was.
It was product that we'd bought for a previous job.
[Judge Levy] So you gave him a deposit for $3,500.
What was it, can you tell us, that Mr. Serrano did or did not do
that caused you concern
and therefore requested the return of your deposit?
So, the day he came over
I asked him to bring his license,
his contractor license.
-May 24th? -May 24th.
He said, "Don't worry about it, I always have it on me."
That day he did not bring it with him.
-Okay. -He said, "I forgot it."
So what? He can give it to you afterwards. Why didn't you give it to her afterwards?
I, I don't have a contractor license, sir.
Oh. What's the name of your business?
I just do handyman side work, sir.
I don't have a business that I contract through.
Who's in your handyman business?
-That's, it's me. -Just you?
I go around, I find jobs, I do odd jobs, sir.
-Handyman work, that's it? -Handyman work, yes, sir.
-It's just you in your business? -Just me, sir.
-No employees? -No, sir, no employees.
-And, obviously, no partners. Okay. -No partners, no, sir.
When you were communicating with Ms. Winney online,
-did you think she was a stupid woman? -Not at all.
-[Judge Levy] Mm-hmm. -No.
Why was it then, if you don't mind me asking,
that during those communications that you had with her
you told her that you did have a license?
I said I could've done it through a company I worked for,
but that we agreed upon I'd do it just as side work.
Are you as sure of that fact
as you are about the rest of your testimony?
That you never told her that you had a license?
I told her I worked for a company that was licensed.
Those are two separate things, Mr. Serrano.
I want you to listen to me extremely carefully.
Because you know
that performing home improvements in your community without a license
is a crime.
That's why we agreed I do it as side work.
No, no, no. The question is, you are aware
that performing home improvements,
such as the removal of asbestos,
without a license, registration, and a bond,
is a crime in your jurisdiction, right?
-You know that. -I'm being made aware now, sir.
You're saying that you don't know that?
I'm saying I do handiwork on the side.
She asked me to do a job. I said I'd do it on the side.
That's what I'm saying.
Mr. Serrano, let me explain something to you.
You may think you're pretty smart, but you're not.
You know the difference between doing handyman work
and doing real home construction, right?
Getting up in an attic, putting stuff in a bag
to remove stuff from the attic,
did not seem like it's something I needed a license for.
Oh, anyone without a license, a bond, insurance, can go in...
-Could I... -Hold on.
And remove asbestos from an attic. That's what you're saying.
You are equating that to cutting grass. Is that what you're saying?
-I'm... -Is that what you're saying?
-If that's how you're taking it, sir, yes. -Oh, okay.
There are all too many people online, Mr. Serrano,
who scam honest, hard-working people willing to pay a fair price
-for the work. -I wasn't out to scam anyone.
-I go the materials... -You weren't... Okay.
You know what, Mr. Serrano? Let's do this.
Let's go through some of the text messages.
Prior to May 24th,
when you were negotiating back and forth with her,
she asked you to show her the materials that you offer.
And you said, "Yes, ma'am, I'm not in the office."
-Where's your office? -Where I keep all my... in my garage.
-In your garage? -Yeah.
I was trying to turn this into a legit business.
I... whoa, I'm not asking whether you had an intent or whether you didn't,
I'm asking what you told that woman when you were communicating with her.
You said that, "The trim around the windows is included in the price,
the fascia's not included,
but we could throw it in for next-to-nothing cheap."
-End cuts... -That's the text. Hold on. No, no.
I wanna make sure that I understand.
You said you weren't trying to take advantage of this woman,
you didn't lie to this woman. That's what you said.
And then you said, "I noted the trim you like,
I'll pass it on to my partner."
-Sounds like a business to me. -This was before...
I asked you, "On May 24th, did you have any partners?"
You said no, no partners and no employees.
You went on again.
You said, "If you did the demo, I could save you $1,300,
but my partner said if half is paid upfront,
we can stretch the other half out to 30 months."
Who is your partner you're referring to?
This is who I was trying to do work with.
Who was your partner?
[narrator] Coming up on Tribunal Justice...
I'm looking here at these medical records,
which say that you are back for chronic upset stomach, headache,
you internalize your stress. Yes.
I just took two Tylenol.
But that doesn't mean I can sue the two of you
-for the headache I have right now. -[audience laughing]
[narrator] Karen Winney is suing contractor Daniel Serrano
for building materials, emotional distress,
as well as pain and suffering.
Daniel claims he only purchased materials needed for Karen's job.
You said, "If you did the demo, I could save you $1,300,
but my partner said if half is paid upfront
we can stretch the other half out to 30 months."
Who is your partner you were referring to?
This is who I was trying to do work with.
Who was your partner?
It was a construction company I worked for, sir.
I didn't ask whether you worked as a subcontractor,
I said who was your partner?
That's what you wrote to her.
"But my partner said."
-When you said... -If you read further down, sir,
-it clarifies... -Hold on. Mr. Serrano. Mr. Serrano.
-I wasn't... -Mr. Serrano, the problem is this.
-[indistinct] -Mr. Serrano, here's the problem.
Mr. Serrano, I'm gonna try to help you right now.
I prosecuted people for years
for doing home improvements without licenses.
I made examples out of them.
Because good people like Ms. Winney here rely on people like you
to do the work that you promised to do
and they do their due diligence
by asking for references, asking for licenses.
And they get ripped off time and time again.
It was never an intent to rip her off. I showed you...
[Judge Levy] Well, that's something for a jury to decide.
Do we have one of those here today?
No, but my feeling is that when Ms. Winney's done here,
she's gonna end up taking a walk
over to the Lincoln County Sheriff's Department
and file a formal complaint.
And then you can then make whatever defenses you want.
All I'm here telling you
is what the text messages that you sent to her
and the representations that you made,
were just an outright lie.
But you should remember not everyone is stupid.
And juries get it more right than they get it wrong.
-Judge Acker. -Thank you, Judge.
[Judge Acker] Mr. Serrano,
when the plaintiff wanted her deposit back,
isn't it true that you told her that you couldn't give it back
because the materials had already been purchased that day?
Yes, ma'am.
So you spent all of her money?
-Yes, ma'am. -Where are the receipts?
-I don't have any receipts. -Why?
I have a phone change in the process, everything was done online, ma'am.
Everything was done online, so you didn't have a computer?
-You had no access... -I had to get into emails...
So you had access to digital technology,
I guess, to receive the receipts in the first instance.
So when you asked the defendant for receipts, what did he tell you?
He told me that it doesn't work like that.
That they just do invoices and...
[Judge Acker] Yeah, I find that troubling.
You don't provide receipts to people who pay you to do things?
Most of the time they provide the materials themselves.
You said here in your answer, I'm gonna read it,
"Karen refused to take care of the black mold
that somehow came up
and demanded her deposit back
after materials had been bought that day."
So I find it odd, sir,
that if you bought all the materials the same day,
that all of a sudden all of the receipts have disappeared?
So what did you spend all of this money on?
There's invoices with the materials on, ma'am.
-Like when they came shipped in. -Where? Where?
-I don't have it with me today. -So what good is that?
-It's not good at all. -No, it means nothing.
-Exactly. -One could reasonably draw an inference
that you were just a thief. But I'm gonna move on.
You filed a TRO against him.
Now that, to me, seems excessive.
Because you're also suing him for pain and suffering,
-for emotional distress. -Correct.
Let's assume that everything that you are arguing to us is true.
He just took your money.
Didn't give you the supplies that you purchased.
That does not strike me as a basis for going to court
and seeking a restraining order against someone.
So tell me why you sought a restraining order?
I did the restraining order because he kept calling and harassing me.
And I already have PTSD.
And so it just...
What's your PTSD from?
I've had a lot of childhood trauma.
All the way up until 2016.
But you've got a case to prove
and just because you had a handyman who may have stolen your money,
that does not mean that he's an inherently dangerous person.
and he's responsible for all of your trauma.
[Karen] No, it doesn't.
And I have a lot of... I internalize my stress.
And so, when I internalize my stress I had to go to the doctor.
I have, I ended up getting, um, myositis.
Um, the muscles in my neck...
And couldn't move my neck for two, just over two weeks.
[Judge Acker] It's a lot of money, so I don't wanna be cavalier.
I'm also concerned about some of these communications.
Because, Mr. Serrano, when she went back to you about the black mold,
you said, "Oh, there's black mold. You've gotta pay me more for this."
And then you said, I saw the text,
"What if you pull if off and there isn't any mold?"
Your response is, "You said it was for your mother.
Then it changed that she's in Mexico."
What does this have to do with anything?
Who cares if it was for her mother?
It does not make a difference, ma'am. It doesn't matter...
So why did you keep throwing that back at her?
You kept suggesting in your text communications...
You kept suggesting in your text communications
that she was somehow trying to cheat you.
Because you were like, oh, you said it was for your mom.
-Can I answer? -You can when I'm done talking.
Okay.
If he's being that intentionally obtuse now here with me,
and when I see this attitude
and when I see these text messages,
you may almost have me at emotional distress,
but not quite. Judge DiMango.
You're a scammer.
Everything about every one of these messages in here
jumps out "scammer".
First of all, you had no license.
You played around with that question that she asked you repeatedly.
Never directly answered it. You know why?
Because you could've been Michelangelo painting the Sistine Chapel,
if you didn't have a license, she could sue you
and get every penny she's ever paid you if she did or never pay you at all.
That's number one.
Number two, you've been asked twice,
what did you buy for $3,500? Tell me.
-Siding, fascia... -You didn't buy siding.
You know why I know that?
Because you said, "I already have blue siding.
I have it left over from another job."
So you bought nothing with the $3,500.
And you're carrying on about how,
"Oh, I don't wanna be out of pocket.
I had this huge job once.
'Cause I'm only a handyman, of course.
But I had this huge $40,000 job and they ripped me off."
Scammer. Scammer. Scammer.
That's what's written all over your text messages.
I know you know.
So you didn't buy anything.
This thing about your senior citizen discount?
"Oh, I thought this was for your mother?"
I never heard of a senior citizen discount.
Not in one of these messages here.
Where would I pull that from?
She did tell you her mother was giving her the money.
-That's where you pulled it from. -It was her mother's house.
-Then her mother didn't live there... -What's the big deal?
I was trying to help someone out that needed their mother to have help.
You're a freaking scammer, for God's sakes.
-You're not helping anybody out. -I'm not, ma'am.
-I won't be labeled as one either. -That's that with the license.
Now, you've had head problems, neck problems,
back problems, side problems,
weight problems, medical problems,
from before you ever heard this guy's name.
I'm looking here at these medical records,
which say that you are back for treatment
for chronic upset stomach, headache, number of other things.
You internalize your stress. Yes.
I just took two Tylenol, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna blame him
and it doesn't mean I can sue you for the headache I have.
-[audience laughing] -That was from...
That was the last visit I went in.
[Judge DiMango] Because you've had a history of this.
You've never had a headache before him?
Well, yeah, but I'm just saying, the myositis I've not had before.
That just... It's all the same thing.
It's all an exaggeration of the same thing.
So, I'm calling him a scammer, I'm calling you a hypochondriac.
[audience chuckles]
[narrator] Coming up on Tribunal Justice...
"CRM Custom Builders has been receiving complaints.
Daniel Serrano has been using our company's name
to gain the trust of our company's citizens
to scam money from them."
It's my aunt and my uncle who own it.
So they are so fond of you, they themselves call you a scammer?
[Judge DiMango] You have a legitimate cause of action
for somebody who held themselves out...
"Gotta check with my partner."
I must've marked off, I don't know how many text messages,
about you saying, "Gotta check with my partner."
"I work for this guy. Oh, call these people. Check these people."
Nothing. She has nothing.
Nothing. You know why?
-'Cause you don't have anything. -I do.
I even bought the material, ma'am.
You have nothing. Where's your receipt?
You have nothing.
And you could keep talking all you want.
You've got, as we would say, niente, nada.
I'm done.
[Judge Levy] I wanna pick up one thing, Mr. Serrano.
'Cause I'm not done.
You, in your text, "My partner said if you go with light blue siding
we have about 2,000 square feet left over from another job.
-Could save you $2,000." -I still had to pay for it.
I'm not saying whether you did or whether you didn't.
She wanted her money back that was for materials.
You said you couldn't give it to her 'cause you had already placed an order.
You had that material.
I'm not saying you got that material for free, sir.
If, in fact, you had it,
which I don't believe even that you did.
But you had already paid for that from another job.
You could've given her back her $3,500.
Because you weren't going to give that money to another supply house.
You had that on site.
I didn't pay for that already for a previous job.
It had been paid for on a previous job, I had to pay for it for this job.
Okay. You know what, that's obviously ridiculous.
The other thing is when you said a moment ago,
at least with my questions, that you were not licensed,
Ms. Winney said, "Are you licensed and insured?"
She's doing her due diligence.
You responded, "The companies I subcontract for are.
I am licensed as well."
-Through the companies, yes, sir. -Nope.
You said, "I am licensed as well."
And you know that's not true.
-I was licensed... -Okay.
And you also are aware that CRM, by the way, submitted an email.
It's my family, so I'm aware.
"CRM Custom Builders has no affiliation with Daniel Serrano.
Our company has been receiving complaints from various home owners
requesting monies be returned to them from Daniel Serrano
who has falsely been using our company's name and license
to gain the trust of our company's citizens
to scam money from them."
It's my aunt and my uncle who own it and...
So they are so fond of you, your aunt and uncle,
that they submitted to the plaintiff here
a letter in which they themselves call you a scammer?
I have nothing further. I think we're ready.
[Judge DiMango] We're gonna retire to deliberate. Thank you both.
This court stands in recess, parties are excused.
The guy's a complete scammer.
Pat, you said it. I said it.
Couldn't be clearer.
His own aunt and uncle said it.
And I spent years in the DA's office
prosecuting people for doing just what he did.
And I'm surprised.
Because Ms. Winney, you know, you saw the evidence.
She should be a private investigator.
The work that she was able to do to put this case together
and to provide us with the evidence we needed
to show exactly who she was dealing with.
Because the only way that someone like Ms. Winney is gonna know
that Mr. Serrano has a record of doing this,
is if he's criminally prosecuted.
He's fingerprinted, he's photographed,
he has a criminal record.
No one says he has to go to jail.
People who I prosecuted didn't go to jail for this.
They paid restitution and it was on their record.
So they would be less likely to do it to someone else in the future.
And the sad part is Ms. Winney actually
went to the Lincoln County Sheriff's Department
and they sent her on her way.
My hope is that she'll be able to take what she learned today
and meet with the sheriff
and say, "This guy's gotta be held accountable
or there will be more victims in your jurisdiction."
I think that she's entitled to that $3,500 back.
As far as the emotional distress,
I don't wanna get into details with her,
but the document that she provided that was reviewed with her,
it said that the anxiety was caused by an issue with her son.
I didn't feel it necessary to go into that with her,
but the $3,500 I would feel comfortable giving to her.
Um, as well as the name of the sheriff over in Lincoln County.
Yeah, there's nothing in this case
that I think warrants emotional distress damages,
but I'm right there with you,
um, on the fact that he defrauded her.
I mean, it couldn't be more clear that it was intentional.
And if you look at these text messages
where's she's like, "Okay, what happens if after I pay you for the mold,
there's no mold?" He doesn't answer her.
He's like, "I thought you said it was your mother's house."
And this and that. Like, just a whole bunch of nonsense, really.
He owes her the money.
If he had to pay somebody for some material that he already had,
that's on him.
I'd give her back the $3,500, no doubt.
I would absolutely give her back the $3,500, but honestly,
it was just too convenient
that somebody actually left siding in light blue that she needed.
So I'm gonna guess that he had nothing.
He bought nothing.
And he was just gonna keep her $3,500 and walk away
but for the fact that she brought him here.
I also have an issue with her request for pain and suffering.
I know you might've thought it got a little worse, but, you know,
it's just not a recoverable amount from my perspective.
So clearly we're all on board with the $3,500.
I said it, first words out of my mouth,
he's a scammer and he's a scammer who's been caught.
-So we have a verdict. -All right. Thank you.
Court is back in session.
Parties are reminded you're still under oath.
[Judge Levy] Thank you, Byrd.
Ms. Winney, what do you do?
I'm... used to be a phlebotomist.
-And right now, are you currently working? -No.
If you were ever looking for a job,
you'd be a great private investigator.
[laughs] Thank you.
The packet of material you put together, the evidence that you acquired,
the people that you contacted,
was nothing short of remarkable
for one of these home improvement cases.
I can tell you, having done these cases for years,
we prosecuted cases with less evidence than what you provided us with.
Wow.
The verdict of this court is unanimous.
And that is that you are entitled to your $3,500 back.
However, the $2,500 that you're seeking for emotional distress,
-that is being denied. -Okay.
That if, as you go through life, this is the worst
that you have to deal with Mr. Serrano or someone like him,
you're not doing too badly.
You're not.
Mr. Serrano, you may not know who Gabe Gants is.
Gabe Gants is the elected sheriff of Lincoln County
and he's the only elected law enforcement officer in the state.
And according to his website
he says he's accountable to the citizens and the voters of Lincoln County.
You should have a discussion with him.
Okay.
[jude Levy] Because my sense is this isn't the first time
-that Mr. Serrano has done this. -No.
And he's gonna do it again.
And if you go file those charges,
maybe someone else won't be standing in the same position you are.
-Okay. -The verdict of this court
-is $3,500 in your favor. -Thank you.
[Byrd] This case is completed. Parties are excused.
It is what it is. We came here, we went to court,
they decided what they decided and that's what it is.
I think he's just trying to scam anybody and everybody he can
'cause I'm not the only one.
I'm an honest worker.
He's not an honest worker at all.
I'm willing to still do the job for Ms. Karen.
Oh, no. Not at all.
My work speaks for itself and I hope to continue to do work like this.
Hopefully, everybody knows who he is and he won't do it again.
[narrator] Are you a victim of a scam?
Let Tribunal Justice decide your case.
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