1 00:00:00,567 --> 00:00:02,867 [Judge Levy] You were looking for a contractor. 2 00:00:02,934 --> 00:00:03,900 Correct. 3 00:00:03,967 --> 00:00:06,633 You told her that you did have a license. 4 00:00:06,700 --> 00:00:07,567 Not at all. 5 00:00:07,633 --> 00:00:09,867 You never told her that you had a license? 6 00:00:09,934 --> 00:00:10,800 No, sir. 7 00:00:10,867 --> 00:00:14,500 "I am licensed as well." 8 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:16,700 [Judge DiMango] You're a scammer. 9 00:00:16,767 --> 00:00:19,433 [narrator] Today on Tribunal Justice... 10 00:00:40,567 --> 00:00:43,100 This case was filed in Spokane, Washington. 11 00:00:43,166 --> 00:00:46,300 Your Honor, this is case number 1012 on account 12 00:00:46,367 --> 00:00:48,467 in the matter of Winney versus Serrano. 13 00:00:48,533 --> 00:00:51,000 Parties have been sworn in. You may be seated. 14 00:00:51,767 --> 00:00:53,133 -Thank you, Byrd. -You're welcome. 15 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,367 Ms. Winney, you were looking for a contractor 16 00:00:57,433 --> 00:00:59,700 to do some home improvements. 17 00:00:59,767 --> 00:01:02,367 And you posted a request on Facebook. 18 00:01:02,433 --> 00:01:03,633 -Is that correct? -Correct. 19 00:01:03,700 --> 00:01:06,333 And Mr. Serrano, you responded, 20 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,767 indicating that you were available for Ms. Winney. Is that right? 21 00:01:09,834 --> 00:01:12,600 -That I was available, yes, sir. -And my understanding, 22 00:01:12,667 --> 00:01:15,433 from reading your complaint and your answer, 23 00:01:15,500 --> 00:01:17,800 was there were basically two things that you needed done. 24 00:01:17,867 --> 00:01:21,233 One was the removal of some exterior siding and bricks 25 00:01:21,300 --> 00:01:22,166 from your home 26 00:01:22,233 --> 00:01:24,200 and replacing them with new materials. 27 00:01:24,265 --> 00:01:28,467 And then the other had to do with the removal of some attic insulation, 28 00:01:28,533 --> 00:01:30,100 Vermiculite. 29 00:01:30,166 --> 00:01:35,333 And the Vermiculite, as well as the siding, contained asbestos, 30 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,533 and that was something that you, sir, Mr. Serrano, 31 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,000 -were able to handle for the job. Right? -Yes, sir. 32 00:01:40,066 --> 00:01:42,033 Okay. So, Ms. Winney, 33 00:01:42,100 --> 00:01:45,366 prior to the written contract being prepared and signed, 34 00:01:45,433 --> 00:01:48,500 what was your understanding of what the amount of money 35 00:01:48,567 --> 00:01:51,667 that were going to be charged by the defendant for that job? 36 00:01:51,734 --> 00:01:54,934 So my understanding was I was supposed to put, 37 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:00,166 it was supposed to be $9,000 to remove the asbestos siding, 38 00:02:00,233 --> 00:02:05,600 including putting on the new indigo blue siding, 39 00:02:05,667 --> 00:02:07,233 with insulation. 40 00:02:07,300 --> 00:02:11,233 And removing the brick that was on the bottom of the house. 41 00:02:11,300 --> 00:02:13,734 [Judge Levy] So you gave him a deposit for $3,500? 42 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:14,667 Yes. 43 00:02:14,734 --> 00:02:18,100 Then something happened where you said, "I don't want you to do this job anymore." 44 00:02:18,166 --> 00:02:19,033 Correct. 45 00:02:19,100 --> 00:02:22,266 And you are suing Mr. Serrano for the return of your $3,500. 46 00:02:22,333 --> 00:02:23,200 Correct. 47 00:02:23,266 --> 00:02:25,233 [Judge Levy] That money was paid on May 24th. 48 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:27,700 And at the time that you bid on this job, 49 00:02:27,767 --> 00:02:31,600 or you advised Ms. Winney, rather, what the expenses were gonna be, 50 00:02:31,667 --> 00:02:34,166 how much this whole job was gonna cost, 51 00:02:34,233 --> 00:02:35,867 had you seen the house yet? 52 00:02:35,934 --> 00:02:39,200 I didn't give her a direct number until I had seen the house. 53 00:02:39,266 --> 00:02:40,133 [Judge Levy] Hold on. 54 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,800 I reviewed the text messages and I don't wanna waste time 55 00:02:42,867 --> 00:02:44,200 'cause there were quite a few. 56 00:02:44,266 --> 00:02:47,700 So when you say, sir, Mr. Serrano, that you didn't give her a number, 57 00:02:47,767 --> 00:02:49,633 -you did. -There were numbers down, I guess. 58 00:02:49,700 --> 00:02:52,900 And the number that you gave her was $11,000, $11,300. 59 00:02:52,966 --> 00:02:54,033 -Right? -Yes. 60 00:02:54,100 --> 00:02:55,767 She told me the house was for her mother. 61 00:02:55,834 --> 00:02:58,133 When I heard that, I said I'd give her a discount. 62 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,800 [Judge Levy] Forget about the fact... You gave her a discount? 63 00:03:00,867 --> 00:03:04,367 I did, sir. I gave her a discount on used product. That's what it was. 64 00:03:04,433 --> 00:03:07,066 It was product that we'd bought for a previous job. 65 00:03:07,133 --> 00:03:09,567 [Judge Levy] So you gave him a deposit for $3,500. 66 00:03:09,633 --> 00:03:13,467 What was it, can you tell us, that Mr. Serrano did or did not do 67 00:03:13,533 --> 00:03:15,066 that caused you concern 68 00:03:15,133 --> 00:03:18,033 and therefore requested the return of your deposit? 69 00:03:18,100 --> 00:03:20,466 So, the day he came over 70 00:03:20,533 --> 00:03:23,133 I asked him to bring his license, 71 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:24,433 his contractor license. 72 00:03:24,500 --> 00:03:26,400 -May 24th? -May 24th. 73 00:03:26,466 --> 00:03:29,633 He said, "Don't worry about it, I always have it on me." 74 00:03:29,700 --> 00:03:31,800 That day he did not bring it with him. 75 00:03:31,867 --> 00:03:33,633 -Okay. -He said, "I forgot it." 76 00:03:33,700 --> 00:03:37,567 So what? He can give it to you afterwards. Why didn't you give it to her afterwards? 77 00:03:37,633 --> 00:03:39,433 I, I don't have a contractor license, sir. 78 00:03:39,500 --> 00:03:41,400 Oh. What's the name of your business? 79 00:03:41,466 --> 00:03:43,133 I just do handyman side work, sir. 80 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,533 I don't have a business that I contract through. 81 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:47,466 Who's in your handyman business? 82 00:03:47,533 --> 00:03:48,900 -That's, it's me. -Just you? 83 00:03:48,966 --> 00:03:51,633 I go around, I find jobs, I do odd jobs, sir. 84 00:03:51,700 --> 00:03:53,500 -Handyman work, that's it? -Handyman work, yes, sir. 85 00:03:53,567 --> 00:03:55,433 -It's just you in your business? -Just me, sir. 86 00:03:55,500 --> 00:03:57,233 -No employees? -No, sir, no employees. 87 00:03:57,300 --> 00:03:59,667 -And, obviously, no partners. Okay. -No partners, no, sir. 88 00:03:59,734 --> 00:04:03,033 When you were communicating with Ms. Winney online, 89 00:04:03,100 --> 00:04:05,567 -did you think she was a stupid woman? -Not at all. 90 00:04:05,633 --> 00:04:07,500 -[Judge Levy] Mm-hmm. -No. 91 00:04:07,567 --> 00:04:09,900 Why was it then, if you don't mind me asking, 92 00:04:09,967 --> 00:04:12,433 that during those communications that you had with her 93 00:04:12,500 --> 00:04:15,000 you told her that you did have a license? 94 00:04:15,066 --> 00:04:17,800 I said I could've done it through a company I worked for, 95 00:04:17,867 --> 00:04:20,166 but that we agreed upon I'd do it just as side work. 96 00:04:20,233 --> 00:04:21,800 Are you as sure of that fact 97 00:04:21,867 --> 00:04:24,000 as you are about the rest of your testimony? 98 00:04:24,066 --> 00:04:26,600 That you never told her that you had a license? 99 00:04:26,667 --> 00:04:29,200 I told her I worked for a company that was licensed. 100 00:04:29,266 --> 00:04:30,967 Those are two separate things, Mr. Serrano. 101 00:04:31,033 --> 00:04:33,166 I want you to listen to me extremely carefully. 102 00:04:33,233 --> 00:04:34,100 Because you know 103 00:04:34,166 --> 00:04:37,734 that performing home improvements in your community without a license 104 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:38,767 is a crime. 105 00:04:38,834 --> 00:04:40,500 That's why we agreed I do it as side work. 106 00:04:40,567 --> 00:04:43,567 No, no, no. The question is, you are aware 107 00:04:43,633 --> 00:04:46,233 that performing home improvements, 108 00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:49,367 such as the removal of asbestos, 109 00:04:49,433 --> 00:04:53,300 without a license, registration, and a bond, 110 00:04:53,367 --> 00:04:55,967 is a crime in your jurisdiction, right? 111 00:04:56,033 --> 00:04:58,800 -You know that. -I'm being made aware now, sir. 112 00:04:58,867 --> 00:05:00,567 You're saying that you don't know that? 113 00:05:00,633 --> 00:05:02,500 I'm saying I do handiwork on the side. 114 00:05:02,567 --> 00:05:04,300 She asked me to do a job. I said I'd do it on the side. 115 00:05:04,367 --> 00:05:05,266 That's what I'm saying. 116 00:05:05,333 --> 00:05:06,700 Mr. Serrano, let me explain something to you. 117 00:05:06,767 --> 00:05:08,500 You may think you're pretty smart, but you're not. 118 00:05:08,567 --> 00:05:11,667 You know the difference between doing handyman work 119 00:05:11,734 --> 00:05:13,934 and doing real home construction, right? 120 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,300 Getting up in an attic, putting stuff in a bag 121 00:05:16,367 --> 00:05:17,734 to remove stuff from the attic, 122 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,332 did not seem like it's something I needed a license for. 123 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,066 Oh, anyone without a license, a bond, insurance, can go in... 124 00:05:24,133 --> 00:05:25,166 -Could I... -Hold on. 125 00:05:25,233 --> 00:05:28,900 And remove asbestos from an attic. That's what you're saying. 126 00:05:28,967 --> 00:05:32,233 You are equating that to cutting grass. Is that what you're saying? 127 00:05:32,300 --> 00:05:33,900 -I'm... -Is that what you're saying? 128 00:05:33,967 --> 00:05:36,533 -If that's how you're taking it, sir, yes. -Oh, okay. 129 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,233 There are all too many people online, Mr. Serrano, 130 00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:43,133 who scam honest, hard-working people willing to pay a fair price 131 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:44,933 -for the work. -I wasn't out to scam anyone. 132 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,933 -I go the materials... -You weren't... Okay. 133 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:48,600 You know what, Mr. Serrano? Let's do this. 134 00:05:48,667 --> 00:05:50,867 Let's go through some of the text messages. 135 00:05:50,933 --> 00:05:52,567 Prior to May 24th, 136 00:05:52,633 --> 00:05:55,700 when you were negotiating back and forth with her, 137 00:05:55,767 --> 00:05:59,467 she asked you to show her the materials that you offer. 138 00:05:59,533 --> 00:06:02,533 And you said, "Yes, ma'am, I'm not in the office." 139 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,934 -Where's your office? -Where I keep all my... in my garage. 140 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:06,867 -In your garage? -Yeah. 141 00:06:06,934 --> 00:06:09,300 I was trying to turn this into a legit business. 142 00:06:09,367 --> 00:06:12,834 I... whoa, I'm not asking whether you had an intent or whether you didn't, 143 00:06:12,900 --> 00:06:15,934 I'm asking what you told that woman when you were communicating with her. 144 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,166 You said that, "The trim around the windows is included in the price, 145 00:06:19,233 --> 00:06:21,000 the fascia's not included, 146 00:06:21,066 --> 00:06:23,600 but we could throw it in for next-to-nothing cheap." 147 00:06:23,667 --> 00:06:25,867 -End cuts... -That's the text. Hold on. No, no. 148 00:06:25,934 --> 00:06:27,500 I wanna make sure that I understand. 149 00:06:27,567 --> 00:06:29,500 You said you weren't trying to take advantage of this woman, 150 00:06:29,567 --> 00:06:31,600 you didn't lie to this woman. That's what you said. 151 00:06:31,667 --> 00:06:34,000 And then you said, "I noted the trim you like, 152 00:06:34,066 --> 00:06:35,967 I'll pass it on to my partner." 153 00:06:36,033 --> 00:06:38,400 -Sounds like a business to me. -This was before... 154 00:06:38,467 --> 00:06:41,100 I asked you, "On May 24th, did you have any partners?" 155 00:06:41,166 --> 00:06:44,600 You said no, no partners and no employees. 156 00:06:44,667 --> 00:06:45,867 You went on again. 157 00:06:45,933 --> 00:06:48,867 You said, "If you did the demo, I could save you $1,300, 158 00:06:48,933 --> 00:06:51,667 but my partner said if half is paid upfront, 159 00:06:51,734 --> 00:06:54,133 we can stretch the other half out to 30 months." 160 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:55,800 Who is your partner you're referring to? 161 00:06:55,867 --> 00:06:57,500 This is who I was trying to do work with. 162 00:06:57,567 --> 00:06:58,767 Who was your partner? 163 00:06:59,834 --> 00:07:01,934 [narrator] Coming up on Tribunal Justice... 164 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,200 I'm looking here at these medical records, 165 00:07:04,266 --> 00:07:09,200 which say that you are back for chronic upset stomach, headache, 166 00:07:09,266 --> 00:07:11,333 you internalize your stress. Yes. 167 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:12,834 I just took two Tylenol. 168 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:14,967 But that doesn't mean I can sue the two of you 169 00:07:15,033 --> 00:07:17,567 -for the headache I have right now. -[audience laughing] 170 00:07:24,100 --> 00:07:27,867 [narrator] Karen Winney is suing contractor Daniel Serrano 171 00:07:27,934 --> 00:07:30,867 for building materials, emotional distress, 172 00:07:30,934 --> 00:07:32,867 as well as pain and suffering. 173 00:07:32,933 --> 00:07:37,767 Daniel claims he only purchased materials needed for Karen's job. 174 00:07:37,834 --> 00:07:41,332 You said, "If you did the demo, I could save you $1,300, 175 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,800 but my partner said if half is paid upfront 176 00:07:43,867 --> 00:07:46,233 we can stretch the other half out to 30 months." 177 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:48,266 Who is your partner you were referring to? 178 00:07:48,332 --> 00:07:49,600 This is who I was trying to do work with. 179 00:07:49,667 --> 00:07:51,000 Who was your partner? 180 00:07:51,066 --> 00:07:53,200 It was a construction company I worked for, sir. 181 00:07:53,266 --> 00:07:55,467 I didn't ask whether you worked as a subcontractor, 182 00:07:55,533 --> 00:07:57,166 I said who was your partner? 183 00:07:57,233 --> 00:07:58,700 That's what you wrote to her. 184 00:07:58,767 --> 00:08:00,233 "But my partner said." 185 00:08:00,300 --> 00:08:02,400 -When you said... -If you read further down, sir, 186 00:08:02,467 --> 00:08:04,900 -it clarifies... -Hold on. Mr. Serrano. Mr. Serrano. 187 00:08:04,967 --> 00:08:07,433 -I wasn't... -Mr. Serrano, the problem is this. 188 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:08,967 -[indistinct] -Mr. Serrano, here's the problem. 189 00:08:09,033 --> 00:08:11,400 Mr. Serrano, I'm gonna try to help you right now. 190 00:08:11,467 --> 00:08:14,233 I prosecuted people for years 191 00:08:14,300 --> 00:08:16,433 for doing home improvements without licenses. 192 00:08:16,500 --> 00:08:18,000 I made examples out of them. 193 00:08:18,066 --> 00:08:21,934 Because good people like Ms. Winney here rely on people like you 194 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,667 to do the work that you promised to do 195 00:08:24,734 --> 00:08:26,567 and they do their due diligence 196 00:08:26,633 --> 00:08:28,867 by asking for references, asking for licenses. 197 00:08:28,934 --> 00:08:31,066 And they get ripped off time and time again. 198 00:08:31,133 --> 00:08:33,433 It was never an intent to rip her off. I showed you... 199 00:08:33,500 --> 00:08:36,133 [Judge Levy] Well, that's something for a jury to decide. 200 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:37,467 Do we have one of those here today? 201 00:08:37,533 --> 00:08:40,265 No, but my feeling is that when Ms. Winney's done here, 202 00:08:40,332 --> 00:08:42,200 she's gonna end up taking a walk 203 00:08:42,265 --> 00:08:44,033 over to the Lincoln County Sheriff's Department 204 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:45,367 and file a formal complaint. 205 00:08:45,433 --> 00:08:48,300 And then you can then make whatever defenses you want. 206 00:08:48,367 --> 00:08:49,767 All I'm here telling you 207 00:08:49,834 --> 00:08:52,165 is what the text messages that you sent to her 208 00:08:52,233 --> 00:08:53,934 and the representations that you made, 209 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,567 were just an outright lie. 210 00:08:55,633 --> 00:08:58,066 But you should remember not everyone is stupid. 211 00:08:58,133 --> 00:09:01,033 And juries get it more right than they get it wrong. 212 00:09:01,100 --> 00:09:02,400 -Judge Acker. -Thank you, Judge. 213 00:09:03,233 --> 00:09:04,767 [Judge Acker] Mr. Serrano, 214 00:09:04,834 --> 00:09:07,867 when the plaintiff wanted her deposit back, 215 00:09:07,934 --> 00:09:11,000 isn't it true that you told her that you couldn't give it back 216 00:09:11,066 --> 00:09:13,266 because the materials had already been purchased that day? 217 00:09:13,333 --> 00:09:14,333 Yes, ma'am. 218 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,033 So you spent all of her money? 219 00:09:16,100 --> 00:09:17,600 -Yes, ma'am. -Where are the receipts? 220 00:09:17,667 --> 00:09:19,000 -I don't have any receipts. -Why? 221 00:09:19,066 --> 00:09:22,400 I have a phone change in the process, everything was done online, ma'am. 222 00:09:22,467 --> 00:09:24,867 Everything was done online, so you didn't have a computer? 223 00:09:24,934 --> 00:09:27,133 -You had no access... -I had to get into emails... 224 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,200 So you had access to digital technology, 225 00:09:30,266 --> 00:09:33,900 I guess, to receive the receipts in the first instance. 226 00:09:33,967 --> 00:09:39,233 So when you asked the defendant for receipts, what did he tell you? 227 00:09:39,300 --> 00:09:41,467 He told me that it doesn't work like that. 228 00:09:41,533 --> 00:09:43,934 That they just do invoices and... 229 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,600 [Judge Acker] Yeah, I find that troubling. 230 00:09:46,667 --> 00:09:50,533 You don't provide receipts to people who pay you to do things? 231 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:52,700 Most of the time they provide the materials themselves. 232 00:09:52,767 --> 00:09:55,165 You said here in your answer, I'm gonna read it, 233 00:09:55,233 --> 00:09:58,033 "Karen refused to take care of the black mold 234 00:09:58,100 --> 00:09:59,533 that somehow came up 235 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,600 and demanded her deposit back 236 00:10:01,667 --> 00:10:04,934 after materials had been bought that day." 237 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,633 So I find it odd, sir, 238 00:10:06,700 --> 00:10:09,400 that if you bought all the materials the same day, 239 00:10:09,467 --> 00:10:12,400 that all of a sudden all of the receipts have disappeared? 240 00:10:12,467 --> 00:10:15,033 So what did you spend all of this money on? 241 00:10:15,100 --> 00:10:16,700 There's invoices with the materials on, ma'am. 242 00:10:16,767 --> 00:10:19,100 -Like when they came shipped in. -Where? Where? 243 00:10:19,166 --> 00:10:22,000 -I don't have it with me today. -So what good is that? 244 00:10:22,066 --> 00:10:24,133 -It's not good at all. -No, it means nothing. 245 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,367 -Exactly. -One could reasonably draw an inference 246 00:10:26,433 --> 00:10:29,233 that you were just a thief. But I'm gonna move on. 247 00:10:29,300 --> 00:10:31,367 You filed a TRO against him. 248 00:10:31,433 --> 00:10:32,867 Now that, to me, seems excessive. 249 00:10:32,934 --> 00:10:35,800 Because you're also suing him for pain and suffering, 250 00:10:35,867 --> 00:10:37,734 -for emotional distress. -Correct. 251 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,033 Let's assume that everything that you are arguing to us is true. 252 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:42,567 He just took your money. 253 00:10:42,633 --> 00:10:46,333 Didn't give you the supplies that you purchased. 254 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,100 That does not strike me as a basis for going to court 255 00:10:49,165 --> 00:10:51,934 and seeking a restraining order against someone. 256 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,300 So tell me why you sought a restraining order? 257 00:10:54,367 --> 00:10:59,834 I did the restraining order because he kept calling and harassing me. 258 00:10:59,900 --> 00:11:02,734 And I already have PTSD. 259 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,734 And so it just... 260 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,133 What's your PTSD from? 261 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,033 I've had a lot of childhood trauma. 262 00:11:09,100 --> 00:11:12,633 All the way up until 2016. 263 00:11:12,700 --> 00:11:14,266 But you've got a case to prove 264 00:11:14,333 --> 00:11:17,767 and just because you had a handyman who may have stolen your money, 265 00:11:17,834 --> 00:11:22,333 that does not mean that he's an inherently dangerous person. 266 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,834 and he's responsible for all of your trauma. 267 00:11:24,900 --> 00:11:26,133 [Karen] No, it doesn't. 268 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:31,133 And I have a lot of... I internalize my stress. 269 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,533 And so, when I internalize my stress I had to go to the doctor. 270 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,367 I have, I ended up getting, um, myositis. 271 00:11:38,433 --> 00:11:40,200 Um, the muscles in my neck... 272 00:11:40,266 --> 00:11:43,867 And couldn't move my neck for two, just over two weeks. 273 00:11:43,934 --> 00:11:46,967 [Judge Acker] It's a lot of money, so I don't wanna be cavalier. 274 00:11:47,033 --> 00:11:50,300 I'm also concerned about some of these communications. 275 00:11:50,367 --> 00:11:53,734 Because, Mr. Serrano, when she went back to you about the black mold, 276 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,233 you said, "Oh, there's black mold. You've gotta pay me more for this." 277 00:11:57,300 --> 00:11:59,367 And then you said, I saw the text, 278 00:11:59,433 --> 00:12:02,033 "What if you pull if off and there isn't any mold?" 279 00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:04,667 Your response is, "You said it was for your mother. 280 00:12:04,734 --> 00:12:06,567 Then it changed that she's in Mexico." 281 00:12:06,633 --> 00:12:08,433 What does this have to do with anything? 282 00:12:08,500 --> 00:12:10,367 Who cares if it was for her mother? 283 00:12:10,433 --> 00:12:13,166 It does not make a difference, ma'am. It doesn't matter... 284 00:12:13,233 --> 00:12:15,700 So why did you keep throwing that back at her? 285 00:12:15,767 --> 00:12:17,967 You kept suggesting in your text communications... 286 00:12:18,033 --> 00:12:21,000 You kept suggesting in your text communications 287 00:12:21,066 --> 00:12:24,000 that she was somehow trying to cheat you. 288 00:12:24,066 --> 00:12:26,266 Because you were like, oh, you said it was for your mom. 289 00:12:26,333 --> 00:12:28,500 -Can I answer? -You can when I'm done talking. 290 00:12:28,567 --> 00:12:29,433 Okay. 291 00:12:29,500 --> 00:12:32,600 If he's being that intentionally obtuse now here with me, 292 00:12:32,667 --> 00:12:34,400 and when I see this attitude 293 00:12:34,467 --> 00:12:37,066 and when I see these text messages, 294 00:12:37,133 --> 00:12:39,266 you may almost have me at emotional distress, 295 00:12:40,633 --> 00:12:42,333 but not quite. Judge DiMango. 296 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:43,767 You're a scammer. 297 00:12:44,266 --> 00:12:47,266 Everything about every one of these messages in here 298 00:12:47,734 --> 00:12:49,500 jumps out "scammer". 299 00:12:49,567 --> 00:12:51,834 First of all, you had no license. 300 00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:55,533 You played around with that question that she asked you repeatedly. 301 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,934 Never directly answered it. You know why? 302 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,800 Because you could've been Michelangelo painting the Sistine Chapel, 303 00:13:00,867 --> 00:13:03,066 if you didn't have a license, she could sue you 304 00:13:03,133 --> 00:13:06,667 and get every penny she's ever paid you if she did or never pay you at all. 305 00:13:06,734 --> 00:13:07,934 That's number one. 306 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,166 Number two, you've been asked twice, 307 00:13:10,233 --> 00:13:13,667 what did you buy for $3,500? Tell me. 308 00:13:13,734 --> 00:13:15,333 -Siding, fascia... -You didn't buy siding. 309 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:16,800 You know why I know that? 310 00:13:16,867 --> 00:13:18,967 Because you said, "I already have blue siding. 311 00:13:19,033 --> 00:13:20,900 I have it left over from another job." 312 00:13:20,967 --> 00:13:22,867 So you bought nothing with the $3,500. 313 00:13:22,934 --> 00:13:24,367 And you're carrying on about how, 314 00:13:24,433 --> 00:13:26,266 "Oh, I don't wanna be out of pocket. 315 00:13:26,333 --> 00:13:28,400 I had this huge job once. 316 00:13:28,467 --> 00:13:30,333 'Cause I'm only a handyman, of course. 317 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,100 But I had this huge $40,000 job and they ripped me off." 318 00:13:34,165 --> 00:13:35,633 Scammer. Scammer. Scammer. 319 00:13:35,700 --> 00:13:38,467 That's what's written all over your text messages. 320 00:13:38,533 --> 00:13:39,600 I know you know. 321 00:13:39,667 --> 00:13:41,066 So you didn't buy anything. 322 00:13:41,133 --> 00:13:43,400 This thing about your senior citizen discount? 323 00:13:43,467 --> 00:13:45,066 "Oh, I thought this was for your mother?" 324 00:13:45,133 --> 00:13:46,900 I never heard of a senior citizen discount. 325 00:13:46,967 --> 00:13:48,300 Not in one of these messages here. 326 00:13:48,367 --> 00:13:50,367 Where would I pull that from? 327 00:13:50,433 --> 00:13:53,165 She did tell you her mother was giving her the money. 328 00:13:53,233 --> 00:13:55,233 -That's where you pulled it from. -It was her mother's house. 329 00:13:55,300 --> 00:13:57,600 -Then her mother didn't live there... -What's the big deal? 330 00:13:57,667 --> 00:14:00,633 I was trying to help someone out that needed their mother to have help. 331 00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:02,533 You're a freaking scammer, for God's sakes. 332 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,667 -You're not helping anybody out. -I'm not, ma'am. 333 00:14:04,734 --> 00:14:07,600 -I won't be labeled as one either. -That's that with the license. 334 00:14:07,667 --> 00:14:10,867 Now, you've had head problems, neck problems, 335 00:14:10,934 --> 00:14:12,433 back problems, side problems, 336 00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:14,600 weight problems, medical problems, 337 00:14:14,667 --> 00:14:16,567 from before you ever heard this guy's name. 338 00:14:16,633 --> 00:14:19,166 I'm looking here at these medical records, 339 00:14:19,233 --> 00:14:21,734 which say that you are back for treatment 340 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:26,333 for chronic upset stomach, headache, number of other things. 341 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,500 You internalize your stress. Yes. 342 00:14:28,567 --> 00:14:31,867 I just took two Tylenol, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna blame him 343 00:14:31,934 --> 00:14:34,934 and it doesn't mean I can sue you for the headache I have. 344 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,266 -[audience laughing] -That was from... 345 00:14:37,333 --> 00:14:39,367 That was the last visit I went in. 346 00:14:39,433 --> 00:14:42,133 [Judge DiMango] Because you've had a history of this. 347 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,400 You've never had a headache before him? 348 00:14:44,867 --> 00:14:48,867 Well, yeah, but I'm just saying, the myositis I've not had before. 349 00:14:48,934 --> 00:14:50,633 That just... It's all the same thing. 350 00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:52,700 It's all an exaggeration of the same thing. 351 00:14:52,767 --> 00:14:56,800 So, I'm calling him a scammer, I'm calling you a hypochondriac. 352 00:14:56,867 --> 00:14:58,400 [audience chuckles] 353 00:14:58,867 --> 00:15:00,967 [narrator] Coming up on Tribunal Justice... 354 00:15:01,033 --> 00:15:04,367 "CRM Custom Builders has been receiving complaints. 355 00:15:04,433 --> 00:15:07,734 Daniel Serrano has been using our company's name 356 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,066 to gain the trust of our company's citizens 357 00:15:10,133 --> 00:15:11,834 to scam money from them." 358 00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:14,166 It's my aunt and my uncle who own it. 359 00:15:14,233 --> 00:15:17,500 So they are so fond of you, they themselves call you a scammer? 360 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,200 [Judge DiMango] You have a legitimate cause of action 361 00:15:28,266 --> 00:15:30,567 for somebody who held themselves out... 362 00:15:30,633 --> 00:15:32,200 "Gotta check with my partner." 363 00:15:32,266 --> 00:15:34,600 I must've marked off, I don't know how many text messages, 364 00:15:34,667 --> 00:15:37,200 about you saying, "Gotta check with my partner." 365 00:15:37,266 --> 00:15:40,165 "I work for this guy. Oh, call these people. Check these people." 366 00:15:40,233 --> 00:15:41,800 Nothing. She has nothing. 367 00:15:41,867 --> 00:15:43,100 Nothing. You know why? 368 00:15:43,567 --> 00:15:45,600 -'Cause you don't have anything. -I do. 369 00:15:45,667 --> 00:15:47,667 I even bought the material, ma'am. 370 00:15:47,734 --> 00:15:49,633 You have nothing. Where's your receipt? 371 00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:51,000 You have nothing. 372 00:15:51,066 --> 00:15:53,266 And you could keep talking all you want. 373 00:15:53,333 --> 00:15:56,533 You've got, as we would say, niente, nada. 374 00:15:57,233 --> 00:15:58,100 I'm done. 375 00:15:58,165 --> 00:16:00,467 [Judge Levy] I wanna pick up one thing, Mr. Serrano. 376 00:16:00,533 --> 00:16:01,867 'Cause I'm not done. 377 00:16:01,934 --> 00:16:06,934 You, in your text, "My partner said if you go with light blue siding 378 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:11,633 we have about 2,000 square feet left over from another job. 379 00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:14,533 -Could save you $2,000." -I still had to pay for it. 380 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,934 I'm not saying whether you did or whether you didn't. 381 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,000 She wanted her money back that was for materials. 382 00:16:20,066 --> 00:16:23,500 You said you couldn't give it to her 'cause you had already placed an order. 383 00:16:23,567 --> 00:16:24,667 You had that material. 384 00:16:24,734 --> 00:16:27,066 I'm not saying you got that material for free, sir. 385 00:16:27,133 --> 00:16:28,467 If, in fact, you had it, 386 00:16:28,533 --> 00:16:30,367 which I don't believe even that you did. 387 00:16:30,433 --> 00:16:33,100 But you had already paid for that from another job. 388 00:16:33,165 --> 00:16:35,367 You could've given her back her $3,500. 389 00:16:35,433 --> 00:16:39,567 Because you weren't going to give that money to another supply house. 390 00:16:39,633 --> 00:16:41,266 You had that on site. 391 00:16:41,333 --> 00:16:43,767 I didn't pay for that already for a previous job. 392 00:16:43,834 --> 00:16:47,066 It had been paid for on a previous job, I had to pay for it for this job. 393 00:16:47,133 --> 00:16:49,867 Okay. You know what, that's obviously ridiculous. 394 00:16:49,934 --> 00:16:52,567 The other thing is when you said a moment ago, 395 00:16:52,633 --> 00:16:54,867 at least with my questions, that you were not licensed, 396 00:16:54,934 --> 00:16:58,133 Ms. Winney said, "Are you licensed and insured?" 397 00:16:58,200 --> 00:16:59,467 She's doing her due diligence. 398 00:16:59,533 --> 00:17:03,667 You responded, "The companies I subcontract for are. 399 00:17:03,734 --> 00:17:07,300 I am licensed as well." 400 00:17:07,367 --> 00:17:09,733 -Through the companies, yes, sir. -Nope. 401 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,800 You said, "I am licensed as well." 402 00:17:11,867 --> 00:17:13,266 And you know that's not true. 403 00:17:13,733 --> 00:17:14,900 -I was licensed... -Okay. 404 00:17:14,967 --> 00:17:18,867 And you also are aware that CRM, by the way, submitted an email. 405 00:17:18,934 --> 00:17:20,599 It's my family, so I'm aware. 406 00:17:20,666 --> 00:17:24,467 "CRM Custom Builders has no affiliation with Daniel Serrano. 407 00:17:24,532 --> 00:17:28,767 Our company has been receiving complaints from various home owners 408 00:17:28,834 --> 00:17:32,700 requesting monies be returned to them from Daniel Serrano 409 00:17:32,767 --> 00:17:36,900 who has falsely been using our company's name and license 410 00:17:36,967 --> 00:17:39,200 to gain the trust of our company's citizens 411 00:17:39,266 --> 00:17:40,967 to scam money from them." 412 00:17:41,033 --> 00:17:43,600 It's my aunt and my uncle who own it and... 413 00:17:43,667 --> 00:17:46,500 So they are so fond of you, your aunt and uncle, 414 00:17:46,567 --> 00:17:48,533 that they submitted to the plaintiff here 415 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,367 a letter in which they themselves call you a scammer? 416 00:17:51,433 --> 00:17:53,133 I have nothing further. I think we're ready. 417 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,867 [Judge DiMango] We're gonna retire to deliberate. Thank you both. 418 00:17:55,934 --> 00:17:58,767 This court stands in recess, parties are excused. 419 00:18:00,433 --> 00:18:02,266 The guy's a complete scammer. 420 00:18:02,333 --> 00:18:04,934 Pat, you said it. I said it. 421 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:06,066 Couldn't be clearer. 422 00:18:06,133 --> 00:18:07,734 His own aunt and uncle said it. 423 00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:11,533 And I spent years in the DA's office 424 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,000 prosecuting people for doing just what he did. 425 00:18:15,066 --> 00:18:16,266 And I'm surprised. 426 00:18:16,333 --> 00:18:19,066 Because Ms. Winney, you know, you saw the evidence. 427 00:18:19,133 --> 00:18:21,233 She should be a private investigator. 428 00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:24,300 The work that she was able to do to put this case together 429 00:18:24,367 --> 00:18:26,433 and to provide us with the evidence we needed 430 00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:29,633 to show exactly who she was dealing with. 431 00:18:29,700 --> 00:18:33,300 Because the only way that someone like Ms. Winney is gonna know 432 00:18:33,367 --> 00:18:36,200 that Mr. Serrano has a record of doing this, 433 00:18:36,734 --> 00:18:38,967 is if he's criminally prosecuted. 434 00:18:39,033 --> 00:18:40,533 He's fingerprinted, he's photographed, 435 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:41,700 he has a criminal record. 436 00:18:41,767 --> 00:18:43,834 No one says he has to go to jail. 437 00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:46,166 People who I prosecuted didn't go to jail for this. 438 00:18:46,233 --> 00:18:48,033 They paid restitution and it was on their record. 439 00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:51,533 So they would be less likely to do it to someone else in the future. 440 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,834 And the sad part is Ms. Winney actually 441 00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:55,667 went to the Lincoln County Sheriff's Department 442 00:18:55,734 --> 00:18:57,333 and they sent her on her way. 443 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,667 My hope is that she'll be able to take what she learned today 444 00:19:01,734 --> 00:19:02,867 and meet with the sheriff 445 00:19:02,934 --> 00:19:04,800 and say, "This guy's gotta be held accountable 446 00:19:04,867 --> 00:19:07,734 or there will be more victims in your jurisdiction." 447 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,133 I think that she's entitled to that $3,500 back. 448 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,266 As far as the emotional distress, 449 00:19:13,333 --> 00:19:15,133 I don't wanna get into details with her, 450 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,233 but the document that she provided that was reviewed with her, 451 00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:21,300 it said that the anxiety was caused by an issue with her son. 452 00:19:21,367 --> 00:19:23,900 I didn't feel it necessary to go into that with her, 453 00:19:23,967 --> 00:19:26,533 but the $3,500 I would feel comfortable giving to her. 454 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,400 Um, as well as the name of the sheriff over in Lincoln County. 455 00:19:30,467 --> 00:19:32,233 Yeah, there's nothing in this case 456 00:19:32,300 --> 00:19:34,600 that I think warrants emotional distress damages, 457 00:19:34,667 --> 00:19:36,800 but I'm right there with you, 458 00:19:36,867 --> 00:19:38,934 um, on the fact that he defrauded her. 459 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,567 I mean, it couldn't be more clear that it was intentional. 460 00:19:41,633 --> 00:19:43,433 And if you look at these text messages 461 00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:46,767 where's she's like, "Okay, what happens if after I pay you for the mold, 462 00:19:46,834 --> 00:19:48,600 there's no mold?" He doesn't answer her. 463 00:19:48,667 --> 00:19:51,033 He's like, "I thought you said it was your mother's house." 464 00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:54,500 And this and that. Like, just a whole bunch of nonsense, really. 465 00:19:54,567 --> 00:19:56,600 He owes her the money. 466 00:19:56,667 --> 00:19:59,900 If he had to pay somebody for some material that he already had, 467 00:19:59,967 --> 00:20:01,133 that's on him. 468 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,667 I'd give her back the $3,500, no doubt. 469 00:20:03,734 --> 00:20:06,300 I would absolutely give her back the $3,500, but honestly, 470 00:20:06,367 --> 00:20:07,633 it was just too convenient 471 00:20:07,700 --> 00:20:11,667 that somebody actually left siding in light blue that she needed. 472 00:20:11,734 --> 00:20:14,066 So I'm gonna guess that he had nothing. 473 00:20:14,133 --> 00:20:15,300 He bought nothing. 474 00:20:15,367 --> 00:20:18,333 And he was just gonna keep her $3,500 and walk away 475 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,100 but for the fact that she brought him here. 476 00:20:20,166 --> 00:20:23,200 I also have an issue with her request for pain and suffering. 477 00:20:23,266 --> 00:20:26,333 I know you might've thought it got a little worse, but, you know, 478 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,867 it's just not a recoverable amount from my perspective. 479 00:20:29,934 --> 00:20:32,200 So clearly we're all on board with the $3,500. 480 00:20:32,266 --> 00:20:34,433 I said it, first words out of my mouth, 481 00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:36,867 he's a scammer and he's a scammer who's been caught. 482 00:20:37,467 --> 00:20:40,367 -So we have a verdict. -All right. Thank you. 483 00:20:43,133 --> 00:20:44,533 Court is back in session. 484 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,367 Parties are reminded you're still under oath. 485 00:20:46,433 --> 00:20:47,567 [Judge Levy] Thank you, Byrd. 486 00:20:47,633 --> 00:20:49,467 Ms. Winney, what do you do? 487 00:20:49,533 --> 00:20:52,300 I'm... used to be a phlebotomist. 488 00:20:52,367 --> 00:20:54,300 -And right now, are you currently working? -No. 489 00:20:54,367 --> 00:20:56,200 If you were ever looking for a job, 490 00:20:56,266 --> 00:20:57,967 you'd be a great private investigator. 491 00:20:58,033 --> 00:20:59,200 [laughs] Thank you. 492 00:20:59,266 --> 00:21:02,567 The packet of material you put together, the evidence that you acquired, 493 00:21:02,633 --> 00:21:04,033 the people that you contacted, 494 00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:05,700 was nothing short of remarkable 495 00:21:05,767 --> 00:21:07,934 for one of these home improvement cases. 496 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,533 I can tell you, having done these cases for years, 497 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,467 we prosecuted cases with less evidence than what you provided us with. 498 00:21:14,533 --> 00:21:15,567 Wow. 499 00:21:15,633 --> 00:21:18,333 The verdict of this court is unanimous. 500 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,367 And that is that you are entitled to your $3,500 back. 501 00:21:22,066 --> 00:21:25,934 However, the $2,500 that you're seeking for emotional distress, 502 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,300 -that is being denied. -Okay. 503 00:21:28,367 --> 00:21:30,233 That if, as you go through life, this is the worst 504 00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:32,934 that you have to deal with Mr. Serrano or someone like him, 505 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:34,300 you're not doing too badly. 506 00:21:34,367 --> 00:21:35,367 You're not. 507 00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:39,667 Mr. Serrano, you may not know who Gabe Gants is. 508 00:21:39,734 --> 00:21:42,567 Gabe Gants is the elected sheriff of Lincoln County 509 00:21:42,633 --> 00:21:45,834 and he's the only elected law enforcement officer in the state. 510 00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:47,300 And according to his website 511 00:21:47,367 --> 00:21:52,100 he says he's accountable to the citizens and the voters of Lincoln County. 512 00:21:52,166 --> 00:21:54,133 You should have a discussion with him. 513 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:55,066 Okay. 514 00:21:55,133 --> 00:21:57,500 [jude Levy] Because my sense is this isn't the first time 515 00:21:57,567 --> 00:21:59,400 -that Mr. Serrano has done this. -No. 516 00:21:59,467 --> 00:22:01,233 And he's gonna do it again. 517 00:22:01,300 --> 00:22:02,967 And if you go file those charges, 518 00:22:03,033 --> 00:22:05,667 maybe someone else won't be standing in the same position you are. 519 00:22:05,734 --> 00:22:07,200 -Okay. -The verdict of this court 520 00:22:07,266 --> 00:22:09,700 -is $3,500 in your favor. -Thank you. 521 00:22:11,066 --> 00:22:14,100 [Byrd] This case is completed. Parties are excused. 522 00:22:16,266 --> 00:22:18,700 It is what it is. We came here, we went to court, 523 00:22:18,767 --> 00:22:20,734 they decided what they decided and that's what it is. 524 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,900 I think he's just trying to scam anybody and everybody he can 525 00:22:23,967 --> 00:22:25,233 'cause I'm not the only one. 526 00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:26,166 I'm an honest worker. 527 00:22:26,233 --> 00:22:27,800 He's not an honest worker at all. 528 00:22:27,867 --> 00:22:29,700 I'm willing to still do the job for Ms. Karen. 529 00:22:29,767 --> 00:22:31,500 Oh, no. Not at all. 530 00:22:31,567 --> 00:22:34,200 My work speaks for itself and I hope to continue to do work like this. 531 00:22:34,266 --> 00:22:38,700 Hopefully, everybody knows who he is and he won't do it again. 532 00:22:38,767 --> 00:22:41,133 [narrator] Are you a victim of a scam? 533 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,567 Let Tribunal Justice decide your case. 534 00:22:44,633 --> 00:22:47,533 Find us on social media at Tribunal Justice.