[Tanya] He was supposed to fix things.
He didn't fix them.
The two of you were forced to move.
It was gettin' unsafer for our kids.
Absolutely not.
The basement looked like this.
What's that? Are there prisoners down there?
[announcer] Today on Tribunal Justice.
[theme music playing]
[announcer] This case was filed in Elbow Lake, Minnesota.
[Byrd] Your Honor, this is case number 1077 on the calendar
in the matter of Hansen versus Kincaid and Ferguson.
Parties have been sworn in. You may be seated.
-Thank you, Byrd. -[Byrd] You're welcome, Judge.
Mr. Hansen,
the defendants were your tenants for about a year and a half.
They moved in in August,
a couple of years ago.
A year later, their lease was up.
You went to inspect the premises,
you saw some damages that concerned you.
But you said, "You know what,
even though there are damages,
you two have been good paying tenants.
I'm going to renew the lease."
And they had agreed, according to you,
to pay for some of those damages.
They did not, however, return the new lease.
They didn't sign it, but they stayed there.
This was in August.
September, you notice
that they stopped paying utilities.
December, they give you 30-day notice.
January, they leave,
and you say, when they move out,
your place is destroyed.
Dog feces, dog urine.
The floors are ruined.
You say they really just made a mess of the place.
On top of that,
they didn't pay the last month's rent.
So in your complaint,
you are suing them for our jurisdictional maximum
of $10,000.
Mr. Kincaid and Miss Ferguson,
you maintain that you owe the plaintiff not one dollar,
because he failed to make repairs
that he was supposed to make on this property.
And because he didn't make those repairs,
the two of you were forced to move.
And you do, in fact, have a counterclaim against the plaintiff
for $9,985.
And that represents the return of four months of rent
and two months of propane,
for which you say he should reimburse you.
Let's start at the beginning, August 2020,
when they moved in.
What was the condition of the home, sir?
Just before they moved in,
we completely got done remodeling the house.
We put new flooring throughout the entire house,
in every room, we had refinished all the walls,
textured and painted them,
put new appliances and stuff like that in.
Does anybody have pictures of the home before they moved in?
I do not.
That would be an important thing for you to have
if you want me to hold them liable for damages.
So August of the next year,
you go in and you see damages in the home.
What do you see?
There was some flooring that looked like it's been wet,
some laminate flooring, separating and heaving a little bit.
There was three interior maple doors
that had dog scratches and dog chew marks on them.
[Tanya] So they've been there for a year.
You're going to let them renew if they pay for the damages
-that you've seen up to that point. -Correct.
[Tanya] All right, so let me talk to you,
Mr. Kincaid and Miss Ferguson.
Because, according to you,
the plaintiff hired you to get the home ready.
That's what you said in your answer.
Yes, I was paid to finish the home.
So if you were paid to finish the home,
then how is that consistent with your defense in this lawsuit,
which is that he was supposed to fix things,
and because he didn't fix things, you had to move out?
I was paid to fix only what I was able to fix
during that amount of time.
And then after that, once I moved in, it was all--
Where in the world in the evidence of this case
is there anything that would show that this plaintiff
was paying you to fix things in the home?
I see nothing. I saw nothing
-about it except in the answer. -[stammers] It was just-- It was cash.
So did you fix anything?
Uh, we put the plumbing in and we fixed the kitchen.
The whole kitchen got new countertops and everything.
And there was a point where you were considering
-buying this property? -There was a point, yes.
And you decided that you weren't going to buy it
because there were so many problems with it.
We found out that it's going to be
more than a hundred thousand dollars in damage.
Your whole defense in this case is that he was supposed to fix things,
he didn't fix them,
and as a consequence of his failure to fix these things,
the two of you were forced to move.
Now, the evidence so far is
that when you moved in, you were supposed to fix things.
There were some things you couldn't fix.
You, in fact, told him you were going to fix some things
and give him money for repairs.
-Didn't you? -Um, no.
-We weren't allowed to touch anything. -[Tanya] Yes, you did.
-You never told him-- -[Timothy] He told us--
-He told us that we're not allowed... -You never told him--
...to fix anything in the house.
You never told him,
"We'll have rent and a little further repairs,
but we'll get you a little further repairs
each month when we give you rent, if that is fine"?
And I started doing that.
Okay, so you did tell him you were going to fix...?
Yes. Until he stated
-that he was not gonna fix the basement. -[Tanya] You did tell him--
You need to let me finish my sentence before you try to answer.
We're not giving speeches. You're responding to my questions.
So you did, at some point in time,
make a representation to the plaintiff
that you were going to give him some money for repairs?
-Yes. -What was the damage
for which the defendant said he was going to compensate you,
when you agreed to let them continue to live there?
It was the three maple doors and parts of the flooring
that had been heaving and separating
from water damage.
And you acknowledge those damages?
[Timothy] Yeah, I acknowledge them.
And you acknowledge that you were going to pay him for those damages?
I told him we were going to give him as much as we can when we can.
So what are these repairs that he said he was going to make
that forced you to move?
The basement.
What did he tell you he was going to do to the basement?
[Timothy] He was supposed to get it all fixed up
and the walls put back together.
[Tanya] This is the basement.
[laughs] What kind of dragons do you have in that dungeon?
What the heck is... What's-- What's that?
Are there prisoners down there?
What's-- What lives there?
[Jason] It's just a dry storage basement.
When I bought the property, it was like that.
[Tanya laughs] What are you storing down there?
-Corpses? What-- -[Jason] It's just dry...
[audience laughing]
It's just dry storage. Nothing. [chuckles]
Was that basement like that when they moved in?
Yes, it was, and they were aware of that.
[Tanya] That's kind of my suspicion, Mr. Kincaid and Miss Ferguson,
'cause there's no way that just happened.
The problem was slowly getting worse.
-Yes. -Right.
The problem was getting worse.
Now, did you ever tell them you were going to fix it?
I did tell them I was going attempt to get it fixed by a contractor.
And due to COVID,
I did reach out to many contractors,
and being short-staffed, none would take it on.
Why do you think that gives you the right not to pay rent?
[Timothy] Because it was getting unsafer for our kids.
The walls were just going more down and down.
The bricks were falling more out of the ground.
The walls in the living room were actually cracking.
Right. But your remedy for that is not to withhold rent.
Your remedy for that is to put the rent in escrow,
and, further, you want him
to reimburse you four months of rent.
So according to you, because of this basement--
-Did you guys live in the basement? -[Timothy and Lisa] No.
-Nobody stayed in the basement? -[Timothy and Lisa] No.
So because of this basement
that was not a part of your living facility,
you think you should have four months of free rent?
The four months from when he said he was going to have it fixed.
A cruddy basement doesn't mean that you don't have to pay rent.
-And why are you suing for propane? -[Timothy] We had to find a safer place
-for us to live. -Why are you suing for propane?
We had to put more than once in two months,
four, four times, propane's in.
Why is that his fault? Maybe you just use
-a lot of energy. -Because the holes in the basement
are taking the heat out.
[Tanya] But you moved into this place
knowing that you had an uninsulated basement,
and now you want to redo the deal
and have him pay you back for things.
That was never his responsibility to pay for propane.
In fact, it was your responsibility when you moved out
to leave the tank, what, 15 percent full?
-Yes, Your Honor. -[Tanya] So I don't know how
he has anything to do with propane.
I do know that this didn't just happen
in six months or four months,
and I don't see a basis
for why the two of you should be allowed to live for free.
Judge DiMango?
This is kind of what I... I'm trying to put this all together,
having seen some of the evidence.
Looks like you bought a bad house.
How long did you own this house before you started renting it?
About three years.
-Were they your first tenants? -Yes, they were.
So when you bought that house,
it was falling apart in the basement.
You bought a bad foundation, a bad house.
You bought the ruins
-of Pompeii, it looks like. -[audience laughing]
[Patricia] Seriously. But you bought it.
Now, I would imagine that when you guys
went to that house to look at it,
you saw that in the basement.
Yes, I've seen it. And I told him right after I'd seen it.
-Well, I didn't see it. -[Patricia] You said...
"I see it, but we're going to take the place anyway."
-Well, I talked to him about that first. -[Patricia] Because--
Yeah, but you took it.
I mean, there's no way he was going to fix that.
I mean, you said you were going to fix it.
What were you going to do, start pulling in one brick at a time?
-You had to hire a company. -Yes.
To lift your house, basically. It was collapsing.
[announcer] Coming up on Tribunal Justice.
[Lisa] He said, "I will work on putting stabilizers up."
That was never done.
I couldn't see the basement at the time.
I moved to Minnesota with a broken foot.
Well, you didn't do any Zumba classes in that house,
because, let me tell you something,
you would have been right through the ground.
[theme music playing]
[announcer] Jason Hansen is suing his former tenants,
Timothy Kincaid and Lisa Ferguson,
for unpaid rent, utility bills, and property damage.
Timothy and Lisa are countersuing for the return of rent,
propane cost, and their security deposit.
They're paying 1300.
-You have kids too, right? -[Timothy] Yes.
Four children? Three or four?
We had four living there. Right now, we have two.
When we moved out, we only had two living with us.
-And you had pets, right? A few pets? -Yes. Three dogs.
But the real problem here is that's dangerous.
I'm sure that when you bought that place,
there weren't people living in it.
There actually was, yes.
Who was living in it?
Uh, the sheriff of the town, actually, and his wife.
-[audience laughing] -[Patricia] The town sheriff?
Yes, ma'am.
You're right about small towns.
[audience laughing]
They were using--
I'm being told now. It makes sense.
So they were using that, Judge Acker, for prisoners, right?
[audience laughing]
Okay, now that I'm getting past the broken basement,
which obviously was not your fault,
was not his fault,
but you have an obligation to fix certain things.
You say you fixed it. What did you do?
You would have some pictures of how great it looked.
Where are those pictures?
I guess I never take pictures, I guess, of my properties,
and I probably should.
-That's a bad answer. -[Jason] I remodel--
That's kind of like, you know,
"Let me see if I can push this one over on her.
I guess I should have really been doing this, but, you know, I didn't."
I remodeled about ten houses, and I don't--
Did he fix the property when you moved in?
-[Lisa] He was in the process... -Honestly?
-...of fixing the property. -He was in process of fixing it.
And there were some things that were left that he made a list,
and we agreed that he would work on it while we lived there.
Some of that stuff didn't get done.
Just like stabilizers in the basement were asked to be put up.
He said, "If I can't get someone to come in here,
I will work on putting stabilizers up."
That was never done.
I couldn't see the basement at the time.
I moved to Minnesota with a broken foot.
Well, you didn't do any Zumba classes in that house,
because, let me tell you something,
you would have been right through the ground.
[Lisa] So-- But when I did see,
there was a discussion about it,
and there were, "Yes, I'll take care of this,"
and things like that and that wasn't done.
[Patricia] Okay, so let's get to the walk-through
and the itemized list of damages.
There was an issue with regard to the walk-through
because you are entitled to do a walk-through with him,
but you wanted to record it.
And you didn't want 'em to. Why?
I simply told them I did not allow them to record me.
They could have recorded the property at any time.
So you didn't take still pictures?
I took stills, but not there in the walk-through,
because we didn't do a walk-through with him.
Did you ever get an itemized list?
I think so, but like a month later.
[Patricia] So you accepted the list.
-You took your own pictures, correct? -Yes.
Why did you not purchase more propane?
Um, we actually did. We were doing it--
Normally, it was only once a month we order propane.
And then at the end of this month, it was every--
Twice a month we were getting propane in there,
and we asked them to have them come out
to see if there was a leak.
Because it made no sense that we were paying $500
every time the propane tank was being filled up.
But the pipes froze. You said the pipes froze.
Yes, they let the propane run out.
And so the furnace went out and froze up.
So were they in the house when the pipes froze?
The pipes froze around January 1st, if I remember correctly,
and that was about one week
after they gave me their 30-day notice.
When did you physically leave the premises?
It was January 1st, is when we started
moving stuff out into the new place.
So we didn't actually know
that we were running low on propane,
because we had had it filled up...
-[Timothy] Nine days before that. -...twice.
Twice already between the end of Thanksgiving
-and that point. -[Patricia] Do you have those bills
to show that you had the tanks filled nine days before you left?
Um, no, I don't have any of that stuff.
[Patricia] Because that would actually help you.
My problem is, I think that each of you are responsible for some things here.
You're asking on your counterclaim for almost $10,000.
The propane, the four months of rent, and the security deposit.
And you're asking for $10,000
because they didn't pay their utility bills.
Which, of course, you've submitted proof of?
-Yes, ma'am. -[Patricia] And the last month's rent,
which you've agreed you didn't pay,
and the property damage,
which you're saying, beyond the three doors,
which was what?
You're not charging them for the basement.
-So what else? -[Jason chuckles] No. No.
Just the floors that all came up from the dog urine,
which you admit was caused by you,
because you wouldn't have agreed
to make payment after the first year.
So between that time that he inspected
and the end of the first year's lease,
and you moved out in January,
the only way that those flaws could have gotten worse
or more damage from water or urine
was based on things that you've done.
-Judge Levy? -[Adam] Mr. Kincaid.
You basically moved out January 1.
You gave notice December 26th.
-December 27th... -Right. That's correct.
...you gave him 30 days' notice.
But you actually had gone already in about a week.
-We were coming back and forth... -[Lisa] We had started moving.
-...every day to clean house. -Yeah.
[Adam] I get that.
And you said that, that as of January 1,
when you were pretty much out,
although coming back and forth,
you had put propane in like what, like a week before?
Like every two weeks we were putting it in.
As of January 1, 2022,
when do you recall placing propane in the tank
prior to that?
It was like the middle of December.
And your claim is that the house did not use
that much propane historically from the year before?
-Yes. -[Adam] Now, Minnesota, right,
-where you're from? -[Jason] Yeah. Very cold.
-Pretty cold in the wintertime? -[Jason] Yeah. Yeah.
-I'm from Wyoming. -[Jason laughs]
-[Timothy] You know then. -I know.
Where were you from before...
[Minnesota accent] you decided to move to Minnesota?
-California. -[Adam] California.
-[Timothy and Lisa] Yep. -[Adam] All right.
So I'm sure that you loved the cold weather in Minnesota...
-[Timothy] Yeah, it's fine. -...in January.
-Yeah, it's not bad. -[Adam] Because I'm looking
at the propane company report
that was provided to us by the plaintiff,
I think this morning.
So when you make the claim
that we shouldn't have been
filling it up that much more,
as you did in your answer,
what did you base that on?
Based it on the year before.
[Adam] Well, let's look at the year before.
A year of going...
We were paying each month for propane.
Well, the problem, Mr. Kincaid, is that it is the same exact number
as the year before.
You're not-- You're not a bad person.
But you've got to be careful about making representations
that aren't accurate,
the same way I'm going to say now to the plaintiff.
Plaintiff over here says you did a complete gut job.
That was the first thing that you said to Judge Acker.
All floors, walls, new appliances.
And Judge DiMango rightfully pointed out
and asked you where are the photographs of that.
And then we found out that your claim
that it was a complete gut job was false.
It wasn't a complete gut job.
Who's the witness that you have sitting to your right, my left?
[Jason] This is my brother, Michael Hansen.
Michael, did you do some work on the house?
[Michael] I did after they moved out.
Come on over.
So you helped your brother out when they moved out?
-I did. -Do you do any work
on any other of the houses that your brother has?
Yeah, I've been helping him out
-for the past ten years or so. -[Adam] Yeah?
And so let me ask, despite the fact he's standing right to your left.
This is just between us.
On the other jobs that you did the full gut jobs on,
or gut jobs and refurbishing and remodeling,
did you take photographs of those jobs?
-Typically not, no. -[Adam] Really?
Well, you know, the problem is,
and, as you know, you're the landlord,
that falls on you.
You know, no bueno.
That's not good, because you have to show
that the work that you had.
So you're, you basically lay out this picture of a pristine home,
that they come in with their kids and their dogs
and they scratch it up
and they mess up the floors and they do all that.
And you know, though, as a landlord,
that you have to prove what the before was.
But you don't prove that.
How come?
[stammering] I guess I should and I don't
-and I will from now on. -[Adam] Yeah. And that's part--
And that's part of the problem.
And I'm telling you that that's going to affect
part of your request for damages
because we don't know what the before was.
My problem is, you were putting lipstick on a pig.
[announcer] Coming up on Tribunal Justice...
The basement looked like Pompeii.
Now, the fact that you were willing to move in
when it was like that, even though he said
he was going to try to fix it, and I get that,
doesn't mean that you're able to withhold
four months' worth of rent.
[theme music playing]
You were puttin' in new floors,
new walls, new appliances,
but you had a foundation that was crumbling around you.
What'd you think was going to happen
to those brand-new floors when the foundation fell through?
And the walls that you had just redone?
And now what you're doing is, you're coming in,
and you're saying that you want them to make good
on what you have listed, is almost $13,000 worth of stuff.
There's no doubt that you guys did a lot of work.
The question that I'm going to have
is whether or not they're responsible for it or not.
That's it. Thank you.
I do appreciate it. You can have a seat.
I think I understand what happened.
And we're going to do it this way.
You rented the house from August 2020 to August of 2021.
That was the first lease.
And then you said that you wanted to renew the lease
and you agreed to renew the lease from August '21
to August '22.
But when Mr. Hansen went to go to the walk-through,
he noticed some of the damage in the home,
and that he agreed to allow you to stay for the extra year.
Although you didn't sign the lease,
there was an understanding that he would let you stay
if you agreed not only to continue paying the same rent,
1350, and the other conditions,
but also pay for those damages, pay for them along the way.
Pay for the doors, pay for the floors,
whatever else it was.
-Yes, that was in the lease. -[Adam] When did you start,
sir, Mr. Kincaid, making that additional payment?
-That first month. -[Adam] How much more
did you pay toward the 1350 rent?
I think it was-- I paid the 1350,
and then I paid 150, I believe,
extra for the damages.
-Did he pay 150? -[Jason] He did pay
one payment of $150, and that was it.
[Adam] Now, so you made one payment.
You never made the second payment.
And instead, come September, October of 2021,
you started looking for another place.
-Yes. -[Adam] Isn't that what happened?
And the reason that you did that,
in part, was because you didn't want to continue paying
the additional money each month for the repairs
that you weren't going to get the benefit of...
-It had nothing to do with the repairs. -Uh-uh.
-It had to do with the basement. -No? So it has to do with the basement.
Here's the problem, though.
You say it has to do with the basement,
but what you say in a text message on December 26th, 2021,
you write, "Hello. Good morning, Jason.
I just want to let you know we're going to be moving out.
So we're giving you 30 days' notice.
We want to thank you for letting us rent out your place.
It is a really nice house.
Thank you. Have a great day."
-Yeah, I remember that one. -[Adam] Okay.
So what you don't say there is,
"Hey, you never fixed the basement.
It wasn't safe."
Are there any text messages in which you complained to him
about the safety issues that you claim
were caused by the basement that you knew about
when you moved in in August of 2020?
I don't know about that. There should be a couple.
-[Adam] I don't-- -Mainly, all of it was--
I know, but the problem is, I don't have any of them.
So your claim that the reason you moved out
was because of a safety concern for your children,
based upon the basement and the photographs that we saw,
is belied by the fact that it was in the same condition
the basement was in when you moved in,
and you had no problem with it,
belied by this text message I just read from December 2021,
where you say, "You have a really nice house. Thank you."
And there are no other text messages,
by you, to him, in any way, shape, or form,
suggesting that you were concerned about your children's safety.
The fact is, it was clear that there were structural issues
in August of 2020.
What you know is that
the basement looked like Pompeii.
Now, the fact that you were willing to move in
when it was like that, even though he said
he was going to try to fix it, and I get that,
doesn't mean that you're able
to withhold four months' worth of rent.
It doesn't.
Thank you. I have nothing further.
[Patricia] We're going to retire to deliberate. Thank you all.
Court now stands in recess. Parties are excused.
[theme music playing]
So let's start with Mr. Hansen's complaint.
He goes in, August 2021,
says that there are damages.
They acknowledge those damages,
and say that they're going to compensate him for them.
So that included damages to the floors and the doors.
I would hold them liable for that, for sure...
[Patricia] Mm-hmm.
...because they acknowledge that they did it.
He also submitted evidence of extensive cleaning he had to do,
including disinfecting
-because of the urine. -Yes.
Um, I would give him that based on the testimony.
-Correct. -[Tanya] The rent is clear.
He submitted evidence of the unpaid utilities.
I would award him that.
I don't see anything on their countersuit.
I mean, Pompeian as that basement may have been,
-it was like that-- -What about the $2600
for the 130 hours of work that the plaintiff said
he and his brother were doing to do that work?
Even if you eliminate that, they're still over $10,000.
I think he's still at our jurisdictional max,
with the other damages, without even considering the work.
[Adam] Then where do we stand on the security?
So you still have $2700 in security.
I mean, we only, just for purposes of calculations,
I eliminated the 2600 for the hours of work.
I don't think we need to subtract anything,
-because this is... -Oh, because of the labor?
-Yeah, because we don't-- -Yeah, I'm with you.
-I'll give him his labor. -So I'd rather just give him...
-I'll give him the labor costs. -And therefore, there goes your 27
-if you want to subtract it. -[Adam] I have-- Listen.
I wasn't comfortable with the plaintiff coming in,
and the first thing he said to you, Tanya,
was he did a complete gut job of that house.
[Patricia] You just didn't say, "Put it back together again."
-He did a complete, a complete-- -[Patricia laughs]
And it was-- And it was anything but a complete gut job.
And what he was trying to do was to say that the house
was in pristine condition until they got it.
That was a bit of bad faith on his part.
And the fact that they did not take any photographs,
prior to, he acknowledged that that was a mistake.
Yeah, it was a mistake.
You're the landlord. You were going to do this work,
even though you are putting lipstick on a pig.
But the plaintiffs didn't say the walls weren't done.
They didn't say the floors weren't done,
and they didn't take any photographs either.
He was going to be doing the work anyway.
Now they're just trying to lay that cost off on the defendants.
-Not all of this work. Not all of it. -[Adam] No. No. No, no, no.
Well, the 2600 for the 130 hours
that they spent doing the work
is the work that they would have spent,
-and really, it-- -But he had to do it.
He had to pay it as a result
of these particular damages that they acknowledge.
I'd give him the labor on it.
I'd give him the $10,000
because that includes the labor
minus the 2700,
and I would dismiss the counterclaim.
And on behalf of the pigs, I want to say
they might be a protected class, with you insulting them like that.
Well, listen, I would love to make it unanimous.
I'm just going to dissent there, just on that one issue.
-[Tanya] Just with respect to that. -Just on that one issue.
-Very good. All righty. -I'm with you.
[theme music playing]
Court is back in session.
Parties are reminded you're still under oath.
-Thank you, Byrd. -You're welcome, Judge.
[Tanya] We've deliberated, and we've reached
a unanimous verdict as to your countersuit.
And we are not unanimous, Mr. Hansen,
as to your case-in-chief.
With respect to your countersuit,
we could not find that you were exonerated from paying rent
because of the problems in the home.
You have to pay rent.
And there was no evidence that the house
was uninhabitable or so dangerous
that you couldn't live there safely.
So we do have to dismiss your countersuit.
With respect to your complaints, sir,
now, here we were not unanimous.
We did agree that there were some damages
for which the defendants are responsible.
Judge Levy, however, would not compensate you
for the money that your brother spent
getting the property back up to snuff,
because, as we pointed out at the outset of the case,
his position was, you were going to have
to pay a laborer to do the labor,
either because they damaged it
or because of your remodel,
so he would not have given you that money.
Judge DiMango and I concluded that
because there were damages, that we do believe
were attributable to these defendants,
that you're entitled to receive the labor payment
for the work that was done to get the property back together.
So we are going to award you
the full $10,000 that you are seeking.
That is the judgment of this court.
We do wish you both the best of luck.
Good luck to you. Good luck to you.
Ten thousand dollars to the plaintiff.
-That's our verdict. -[Jason] Mm-hmm. Thank you.
[Byrd] This case is now concluded.
Parties are excused. You may step out.
I think it was not the right decision to make.
I think it was a very fair and just decision.
Landlords should be accountable for stuff
that the tenants didn't do.
I was really sad that the house can get destroyed
in 18 months of a tenant like that.
We found a way better place.
Yeah, much better.
I'm going to take a lot of pictures from now on
before people move in. [laughs]
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