You rented the defendant's home?
Silly move, yes.
Excessive wear and tear, and lots of trash removal.
Exactly.
All the towel racks were off, the shower was a mess,
the vanity was broken.
He wanted me to go in there and spit shine it.
When you are renting a home and you move out of the home,
you have to clean it up.
[announcer] Now on Tribunal Justice.
["Ride of the Valkyries" plays]
[announcer] Today's case was filed in Fontana, California.
Your Honor, this is case number 2068 Kirkland versus Kutz.
All parties have been sworn in.
You may be seated.
[Judge Levy] Thank you, Cassandra.
- [Cassandra] You're welcome. - [Judge Levy] All right, Ms. Kirkland.
You, according to your complaint, rented the defendant's home
and prior to you moving out,
you claim that he or people on his behalf threw away several of your personal items,
and you're suing him for those items that you value at $4,000.
Correct, Your Honor.
[Judge Levy] And Mr. Kutz, you say that she was provided
with appropriate notice to vacate the home
and that she took everything that she wanted.
What was left was considered broken, abandoned,
and you had people come in and they removed it?
Yes.
[Judge Levy] And now, you're countersuing her for $4,000...
Correct.
... due to excessive wear and tear, and lots of trash removal.
- Exactly. - [Judge Levy] All right.
Ms. Kirkland, let's start with you.
Tell us how you met the defendant.
Um, I actually met his wife, his ex-wife first.
Um, I'm a groomer and they used to bring their dogs
to the shop that I work with my friend.
And he was looking for someone to take care of his dog.
So I offered to do that for him while he was down the hill working.
It then got to the point where we have lots of weather out there
- and he couldn't... - [Judge Levy] Where?
Where are we talking about?
- Lake Arrowhead. - [Judge Levy] Lake Arrowhead?
- Yes. - Uh-hmm. Snow country?
- [Josie] Yes. - Yes.
So I offered to look after the dog while he was away.
And then I was moving out of the house I was at.
Win decided that he was possibly going to either be at the house part-time
or completely move down the hill.
So he wanted to...
When you say down the hill, this was more of a mountain home?
In the mountains?
It was my sole home.
However, it would take me two and a half hours to get to work.
And being a pilot, uh, with the weather,
I ended up renting an apartment. She needed a place to stay.
Was this a rental pursuant to a lease, was it oral?
- What was it? - Uh, it was verbal at first...
[Judge Levy] Uh-hmm.
... and then, um, it was written up in the lease, but it was never signed.
But in this case, it's really not that big of a deal...
Right.
... because the terms of the lease were understood by both of you.
Right.
[Judge Levy] The terms of the lease were starting in November of 2021...
- Yes. - [Judge Levy] ... to November 2022?
- Yes. - So in your complaint, Ms. Kirkland,
- you said it was $2,300 a month. - Yes, I--
yeah, I paid 1,150 a month and so did the tenant downstairs.
Okay. And that you were going to split the rent with your boyfriend
- at the time? - My ex.
- [Judge Levy] Your ex-boyfriend? - Uh-hmm.
You moved in your ex?
Daring. Okay.
- Silly move, yes. - [Judge Levy] Well, well, okay.
[laughs]
[Judge Levy] And there was a security deposit of how much?
$500.
- [Judge Levy] Correct so far? - That's correct.
All right. So there came a time where your ex moved out.
Uh-hmm.
And then your 26-year-old son moved in,
- correct? - [Josie] Yes.
And Win made me guarantee that he would be there
for at least between 12 and 24 months.
But then come June of the following year, Win turned around and said
he's decided to sell and we needed to move out.
So it was--you say June, it could be July.
I'm just looking at your paper...
Well, I have a text message at the end of June
- and I gave her two months. - [Judge Levy] Okay.
What did you put in that text?
Um, I put that I decided to sell my house because I was traveling
so much distance for work, that I was gonna rent an apartment,
and it was gonna take me a while to clean it up.
And so I gave her until September 1st and she didn't actually get out
till almost the 15th of September.
[Judge Levy] Okay. So now, you tell her in June 6, '21
that the move-out date becomes September 1.
Yes.
And that in order for them to show the home,
the home had to be completely cleaned out.
- Exactly. - Uh-hmm.
[Judge Levy] All right.
We have some photographs of what the backyard looked like.
Is that the way the backyard looked like on June 21st
when you got notice that September 1 was gonna be your move-out date?
Uh, yes.
So what we have, so everyone's clear,
we got a wheelbarrow, we got a bike, we have lots, lots of wood.
Whose wood is that?
There were some wood from underneath the house that belonged to Win.
There were some wood that was there previously.
It was all piled together.
Was anyone working, like a woodworker in your--in your home?
- Her son. - My son did--is a contractor.
[Judge Levy] Hold on.
You're saying that this was none of your son's contracting...
[Josie] Some of it was, yes.
My son would come in and take a load, uh, to the dump,
but you're only allowed to take so much.
What happened was we got the snow, that big, like, 12 feet of snow,
so that's why most of that wood couldn't be moved.
[Judge Levy] I got it. Whose bike was that?
[Josie] I think that was his bike.
- I don't know whose bike that was. - [Alan] It was my bike.
- Eventually, the trash people took... - [Judge Levy] Okay.
And what about the rabbit cage?
- 'Cause I know that that... - [Josie] The rabbit cage was mine.
That cage collapsed, so we put it all in that area.
The wheelbarrow was Win's and we were taking it all to the dump.
And the notice that you had gotten on June 21st
indicated that you had to be out September 1st...
Right.
... that the realtors needed the place completely clean
- so they could photograph it... - [Josie] Right.
... and get it up for sale.
- So September 1st... - Uh-hmm.
[Judge Levy] ... were you completely moved out?
No.
September 1st was on a Friday and so Win had messaged me and said,
"Don't worry, you got a few extra days
'cause I'm not even gonna be coming back up the hill until next week."
So I had a crew, um, that was coming by on the Monday
who didn't show up and it was a holiday weekend,
so I couldn't get anyone to come to the house
until Wednesday, which is what I did and I was out.
[Judge Levy] Okay. And what do you say, sir?
What's your position?
Uh, my--I did give her a couple extra days 'cause I'm a pilot,
I was on a trip, and I gave her some grace.
And I got back to the house after she said she was out
and I almost cried because my house was...
- [Judge Levy] What date? - It smelled--uh, September 5th.
It smelled like animal urine.
Even my realtors said, "This house is in horrible condition."
Uh, all the towel racks were off, the shower was a mess,
the vanity was broken, fireplace stones were broken.
This is the way that one of the showers was left?
- [Alan] Yup. - [Judge Levy] Which shower is that?
[Josie] That's the-- where my son was, downstairs.
[Judge Levy] Downstairs.
Yeah, and I did say to him, I said, "Yes, he's a 26-year-old boy
and he's a slob. I don't know what to tell you."
Well, first of all, he's a 26-year-old man.
Oh, okay. A man.
But the reason why I was, um, not going to clean it for him
was because when he moved out, I cleaned the house.
When, uh, the tenant downstairs moved out, I cleaned the house.
When I moved out, he wanted me to go in there
and spit shine it so he didn't have to worry about coming up the hill
and they could walk in and take pictures.
- That--that's not true. - Okay.
- I had three cleaners come. - [Judge Levy] Uh, hold on. Hold on.
The gravamen of your claim, ma'am, is that the defendant threw away $4,000
- worth of your property. - Right.
[Judge Levy] Now, you provided us with a photograph.
That's a chandelier that appears to be broken
and it's never getting put back to together again.
Oh, no.
[Judge Levy] How much did you pay for that?
$360.
- [Judge Levy] Show me proof. - I don't have proof.
It was, like, three years ago.
What we cannot do is simply accept what you said as being the value.
- [Josie] Right. - You can say absolutely anything.
Well, I tried to go online and find something comparable,
but it was from an antique store.
[Judge Levy] And this was a prized possession of yours?
[Josie] Yes.
[Judge Levy] So where in the house did you keep this prized possession
that he ended up destroying?
I kept it in the crawlspace underneath the house.
- [Judge Levy] Underneath the house? - Underneath the house.
[Judge Levy] Okay.
What's this a photograph of?
[Josie] That--the table and chair belongs to the tenant
that used to live downstairs
who refused to come back and pick it up.
[Judge Levy] And that's a carjack, that's a table, that's a chair,
- so that's not your property? - [Josie] No.
[Judge Levy] What other evidence do you have
of items to establish the $4,000 value that you're suing him for?
I don't have anything because when I got there,
the stuff in the yard that was mine, all my furniture, all my statues,
and the chandeliers that were under the house
were in the back of a dump truck.
The only item that you provided us with was the chandelier
that you kept under the crawlspace of the house?
- Yes. - [Judge Levy] Okay.
Thank you. Judge Acker.
I just wanna make sure that we're clear.
Your move-out date was September 1st.
Yes.
It is undisputed that the property over which you're suing,
you didn't come back and try to get it until September 9th or 10th.
Right. I had all my items in the back...
Why didn't you get these things out when the lease ended?
[announcer] Coming up on Tribunal Justice.
- Who's your witness, sir? - Uh, my witness is her ex-boyfriend...
Yeah.
... who lived in my house for six months.
[dramatic musical sting]
[theme music plays]
[announcer] Josie Kirkland is suing former landlord and friend Alan Kutz
for $4,000, claiming he trashed her property while she was moving out.
Alan is countersuing for $4,000, claiming Josie left his mountain home
damaged and in a mess.
Why didn't you get these things out when the lease ended?
I agreed with him
'cause he said, "I need to get in the house to take pictures."
And I said, "Okay."
I got out of the house, I cleaned everything,
I swept, I wiped everything down.
He said, "I need to get in and take pictures."
And I said, "Okay. But I still got some stuff in the backyard."
He said, "Don't worry about that.
I've got--I got crew guys coming in, take what you're gonna take," he said,
"And then we'll sort you out."
So I got everything out of the house, I sent him a message saying,
"Everything down in the backyard, I would put down in the back
and I will come pick it up."
I put it out of the way towards the Jeep.
But I'm trying to understand, ma'am, why it is you believe
that somebody would have any liability for property that was left
days and days and days after the termination date.
Like, dates actually mean something.
Because I spoke to an attorney and they said,
"By law, he can't touch your stuff for 19 days."
Who's your witness, ma'am?
This is Patty who I work with.
How do you know the defendant?
I've been his dog groomer for several years.
[Judge Acker] So you own the grooming shop...
Yes, I do.
[Judge Acker] ... which is how he met her?
- Yes. - And who's your witness, sir?
- Uh, my witness is her ex-boyfriend... - Take the stand.
Yeah.
... who lived in my house for six months.
- [Judge Acker] Yeah. So I saw that. - Peter.
If you think that I'm going to take with anything but a grain of salt
what somebody's ex-boyfriend says, uh...
[Josie] Thank you.
[Judge Acker] ... when they're showing up on opposite side of them in court...
Thank you, Judge.
... uh, you have to take another think.
But you're here to testify so I'll hear what you have to say.
Um, what I'm gonna testify to is she sent me an email
saying the things that I had left there, I could come and get
'cause she's moving out of the house, she's buying a house, is what she told me.
And I said, "Congratulations."
She said, "You need to contact Win." I haven't spoke to Win in months.
I contacted him.
He said, "Yes, you have permission to go back over there. Josie's gone."
Also, Win did say, "Josie said that you left wood there."
And I thought, "I don't know anything about this wood."
I was dumbfounded when I got there and saw the state of the place.
So anyway, I go out in the back, I saw there's somebody in the house.
So I opened the sliding glass door.
I said, "Hello, anybody home?"
Josie comes walking down the stairs and proceeds to tell me
that the coyote got a cat, but the cat's okay.
And I left because I didn't wanna be there with her.
And then I told Win she's not out, and he thought she was out.
- [Judge Acker] Okay. - And that's why I went over there.
[Judge Acker] Thank you for that.
Ma'am, what do you have to offer in this case?
Well, I'm aware of everything that went on between...
[Judge Acker] You're not aware of everything.
You weren't there 24/7.
- I mean... - To be perfectly hon...
... you put it in the statement-- yeah, be perfectly honest.
[Patricia] I'm gonna be perfectly honest with you.
Don't be imperfectly honest.
I wouldn't have lived in that house on a bet.
The, uh, deck upstairs was dangerous to anybody.
And he was aware of that.
She told him.
It was in complete disarray.
If somebody fell through it, they would've been hurt terribly.
So the smell of dog urine on untreated old rotted wood.
Okay.
That was inside the house.
Uh, he expected her
- to really be his house cleaner. - Yeah.
[Judge Acker] Okay. I'm gonna stop that...
- She treated him... - [Judge Acker] No, no, no, stop.
Because when you are renting a home and you move out of the home,
you have to clean it up.
And now you can sit down, unless one of my...
Okay.
[Judge Acker] ... colleagues wants to hear from you.
He would also call me...
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.
Can we put up the defendant's pictures of damage?
Now, tell me, what's she liable for here?
[Alan] You see all the scratches on the floor?
The floor was uh, less than a year old when they moved in.
[Judge Acker] How do I know this?
Look, I've been to Arrowhead.
It's a place where there's mountain.
It's a place where there's weather.
People come and tramp in and out of the houses.
They leave snow. They're a mess.
I don't have any basis of knowing if that was her damage
or pre-existing damage.
Now, this was, you said, your 26-year-old baby man's bathroom?
Yes.
So you admit that you did that or that it was left...
- Well, I didn't do that. - It doesn't matter if you did it.
It was done under your auspices.
You and your son are jointly and severally liable.
Yes.
[Judge Acker] That means that he can go after you, he can go after your son...
Yes.
- ... he can go after you and your son. - [Josie] Yes.
He's going after you.
Yes.
So I think you've got some things to prove here.
Judge DiMango.
[Judge DiMango] Sir, you can have a seat, ex-boyfriend/...
Okay.
- [Judge DiMango] ... whatever. - Thank you.
Now, I'm confused about who was living where
and what the property looked like at what point in time.
Okay.
Is this before or after pictures?
[Josie] That was when I moved out.
- [Judge DiMango] That was when you moved? - [Josie] Yes.
[Judge DiMango] You agree? And it looked like this when she left?
Uh, yes, the upstairs was nice.
[Judge DiMango] Okay, so upstairs was nice where she lived.
Yes.
Now, we look to the room downstairs
that you say you didn't wanna clean
but your lease said that you need to restore.
Paragraph 31,
"You shall restore the premises to the same condition that it existed
when the lease commenced."
And that was spit shine clean.
All right.
What about this filthy shower?
[Josie] Yes. That shower should have been cleaned.
- Yes. - And it wasn't cleaned?
No.
[Judge DiMango] And what about this broken deck.
Who drove on the deck and broke it?
[Alan] My neighbor said that they drove a truck on it.
We don't own a truck.
I don't know what the neighbor's talking about.
- [Judge DiMango] Was this... - Her car, Your--a car...
- The neighbor--the neighbor... - [Judge DiMango] Okay.
First of all, your neighbors are not here to testify...
- [Alan] Right. - ... so that's hearsay.
[Alan] Right.
So the bottom line is we have this damaged deck.
- Yes. - Which my son fixed.
And then with the snow
when they were shoveling, it was broken again.
[Judge DiMango] And we have this stove.
- This is pretty filthy. - [Josie] Yeah.
And pretty disgusting, but the kitchen was clean.
[Josie] That's how it was when I went in...
[Judge DiMango] So I'm not so sure, sir...
- No. - [Judge DiMango] ... uh, based on...
That's was the way it was left that way.
So you want $4,000 for the mess.
And he's already sent me
- an invoice for 2,000. - [Judge DiMango] And you want $4,000.
He had already agreed to give me $2,000.
Aha. That is absolutely true.
[announcer] Coming up on Tribunal Justice.
- Why didn't you accept the $2,000? - I did.
- Uh-uh. - [Josie] Yes, I did.
- Well, you're gonna show me... - [Josie] Okay.
... and then I'll be wrong.
[dramatic musical sting]
[theme music plays]
[announcer] Josie Kirkland is suing landlord Alan Kutz
after her personal items were thrown away while she was moving out.
But Alan claims he gave Josie ample time to pack up and get out.
There is a text message here where you say,
"I'll Zelle you $2,000 today if you leave me and my property alone
as well as sign an agreement as such."
I was trying to sell my house.
[Judge DiMango] Because it wasn't worth it for you
to keep her and that junk there.
[Alan] I didn't--I didn't know...
- There. - [Alan] ... what else to do.
[Judge DiMango] Why didn't you accept
- the $2,000? - [Josie] I did.
- Uh-uh. - Yes, I did.
[Judge DiMango] Well, you're gonna show me
- and then I'll be wrong. - Okay.
By the way, did you speak to your lawyer?
Yes, I went [indistinct].
[Judge DiMango] And what did the lawyer say?
They're the ones that told me that he shouldn't have got rid of my items.
I had 19 days and they said...
I don't know where you get that from.
... "If you agree to it, then take the $2,000 and be done with it."
- And you didn't? - No.
- I--ugh... - You didn't.
Okay, hang on.
[Alan] And, Your Honor, after I...
- [Judge DiMango] Yes? - ... thought about that offer,
I went back and looked at my house and almost cried
and I said, "I'm--I can't give her that money.
That's almost like extortion,
because I'm just trying to get her out of my house."
So then he messaged me and said,
"I'm going to have to borrow the money. Please do it today."
I said, "I will stop by the house on my way to see if there are any items
that you have, but you have a deal."
- [Judge DiMango] Can I have that, please? - [Josie] Yeah, sure.
Thanks, Cassandra.
[Josie] You can scroll up and down.
[Judge DiMango] Uh, he writes,
"I'm going to have to borrow the money so please do it today."
[Josie] Right.
[Judge DiMango] "I will stop by the house on my way home.
And if the items are there, you have a deal."
- Yeah. - Did you stop by?
- Yes. - Did she stop by?
Not that I know of.
He says he doesn't know you stopped by. Did you respond?
No.
[Judge DiMango] I don't see a response.
You didn't respond to him like you said you would.
I'm ready if you're ready.
Okay. So September 23rd, sir, you did prepare, as the landlord,
a list of items that you had spent money on to fix
along with the $500 security deposit and you gave her a copy of that, correct?
Yes.
My sense, sir, is that you just wanted her out.
You just wanted to sell-- did you sell the house by the way?
- Yes, sir. - [Judge Levy] Congratulations.
So, you just wanted her out.
And the reason that you filed the countersuit
is because you know that she was trying to rake you over the coals
and that she was trying to extort you for 4 grand.
- [Alan] Yeah. - And that you didn't owe it.
You never would've brought up the other four--
true? Okay.
Thank you so much for being honest.
- I have nothing further. - We're gonna retire to deliberate.
Thank you both.
This case is now in recess. Parties will be recalled.
[dramatic musical sting]
[Judge Levy] Word to the wise.
If you're gonna file a lawsuit as a tenant against your landlord
claiming that they threw away items of yours,
you should prepare a list and have values and receipts to support your claim.
Unless you don't. [laughs]
And if you don't, then you end up with a big goose egg.
Unless you got nothing to prove.
I really couldn't place my finger on why she was doing what she was doing.
There was obviously something else that was going on that she was upset.
And I think maybe we got a glimmer of it.
She spoke to someone. She said it was a lawyer.
So perhaps she was just given some bad advice
and then overplayed her hand,
and that's why she ended up where she is, 'cause I do not believe
based upon her testimony that she's entitled to anything whatsoever.
As far as the counterclaim goes, listen, the defendant said,
"I felt like I was being shaken down,
you know, it was like extortion and I had to get her out.
The only reason why I ended up filing this counterclaim against her is
'cause she filed this nonsense $4,000 claim against me."
The problem is that he kept the $500 security
and he provided us with no evidence
of the way that the house looked, the grounds looked prior to her moving in.
So there would really be no way to prove what was there, what wasn't there.
We just know that there was a lot of comingled stuff there.
And this will not come as a surprise to him.
If you two agree with me, I would dismiss his counterclaim as well.
I'm right there with you.
I mean, notwithstanding the fact that her ex-boyfriend says,
"But no, no, it wasn't like that."
You know, a mountain house like this
is going to have more normal wear and tear than another place might.
So like picking on these scratches, uh, I have no basis of knowing
if she caused them, if they're pre-existing.
I agree that his case should be dismissed
because it's pretty hard to establish mess and filth all over the place.
And her, I didn't see one thing in total that was worth $500 that she had there.
And I have a statement here.
This is on the 10th of September.
He tells her, "You told me everything was out.
The house isn't empty and I'm gonna have to be forced
to throw your things in the backyard.
I'm gonna have somebody come tomorrow", that would've been on the 11th.
So anything that she complained that they destroyed on her
was really something that she should have expected at the time.
I wanna dismiss both cases.
Well said. I'm with you.
All right, unanimous.
[dramatic musical sting]
[Cassandra] Court is back in session.
All parties are reminded that you're still under oath.
[Judge Levy] Thank you, Cassandra.
All right, Ms. Kirkland, one of the most important things
that a plaintiff in your position would've provided was an itemized list.
Uh-hmm.
[Judge Levy] Those items, their value, and proof of those values.
If you had it, I'm sure you would've brought it,
but it's as a result of that failure on your part
that it's the unanimous decision of the court
that we have to dismiss your claim.
Okay.
[Judge Levy] As far as the counterclaim goes,
the reason in part that we're dismissing the counterclaim
is one thing that we did not see
was the condition of the home before the plaintiff moved in.
What we did hear was that there was a lot of, uh,
comingling of old wood with new wood, new junk with some older junk,
and there was really no way to parse that out.
- You sold the home, congratulations. - Thank you.
You found a new home, congratulations.
You both seem like really nice people.
We thank you for coming in and both of the matters are dismissed.
- Thank you so much. - Thank you, Judge.
- Thank you. - [gavel bangs]
This case has concluded. All parties are dismissed.
[theme music plays]
I'm upset that I've now lost my deposit and all my items.
I feel like I was being extorted for money.
I'm an extortionist.
No.
Lesson learned. Yeah.
And now, I bought a house and I'm never gonna rent it out.
I'm gonna stay there. Life is good.
Lose-lose for me, I guess.
[announcer] Are you being sued?
Let Tribunal Justice decide your case.
Find us on social media at Tribunal Justice.
["Ride of the Valkyries" plays]