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You rented the defendant's home?
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Silly move, yes.
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Excessive wear and tear,
and lots of trash removal.
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Exactly.
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All the towel racks were off,
the shower was a mess,
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the vanity was broken.
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He wanted me to go in there
and spit shine it.
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When you are renting a home
and you move out of the home,
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you have to clean it up.
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[announcer] Now on Tribunal Justice.
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{\an8}["Ride of the Valkyries" plays]
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[announcer] Today's case
was filed in Fontana, California.
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{\an8}Your Honor, this is case number 2068
Kirkland versus Kutz.
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{\an8}All parties have been sworn in.
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{\an8}You may be seated.
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[Judge Levy] Thank you, Cassandra.
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- [Cassandra] You're welcome.
- [Judge Levy] All right, Ms. Kirkland.
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{\an8}You, according to your complaint,
rented the defendant's home
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and prior to you moving out,
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you claim that he or people on his behalf
threw away several of your personal items,
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{\an8}and you're suing him for those items
that you value at $4,000.
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{\an8}Correct, Your Honor.
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{\an8}[Judge Levy] And Mr. Kutz,
you say that she was provided
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{\an8}with appropriate notice to vacate the home
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{\an8}and that she took
everything that she wanted.
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What was left was considered
broken, abandoned,
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and you had people come in
and they removed it?
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Yes.
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[Judge Levy] And now,
you're countersuing her for $4,000...
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Correct.
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... due to excessive wear and tear,
and lots of trash removal.
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{\an8}- Exactly.
- [Judge Levy] All right.
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{\an8}Ms. Kirkland, let's start with you.
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{\an8}Tell us how you met the defendant.
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Um, I actually met his wife,
his ex-wife first.
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Um, I'm a groomer
and they used to bring their dogs
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to the shop that I work with my friend.
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And he was looking for someone
to take care of his dog.
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So I offered to do that for him
while he was down the hill working.
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It then got to the point
where we have lots of weather out there
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- and he couldn't...
- [Judge Levy] Where?
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Where are we talking about?
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- Lake Arrowhead.
- [Judge Levy] Lake Arrowhead?
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- Yes.
- Uh-hmm. Snow country?
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00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:17,533
- [Josie] Yes.
- Yes.
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So I offered to look after the dog
while he was away.
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And then I was moving
out of the house I was at.
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Win decided that he was possibly
going to either be at the house part-time
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or completely move down the hill.
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So he wanted to...
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When you say down the hill,
this was more of a mountain home?
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In the mountains?
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{\an8}It was my sole home.
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{\an8}However, it would take me
two and a half hours to get to work.
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{\an8}And being a pilot, uh, with the weather,
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I ended up renting an apartment.
She needed a place to stay.
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Was this a rental
pursuant to a lease, was it oral?
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- What was it?
- Uh, it was verbal at first...
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[Judge Levy] Uh-hmm.
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... and then, um, it was written up
in the lease, but it was never signed.
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But in this case,
it's really not that big of a deal...
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Right.
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... because the terms of the lease
were understood by both of you.
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Right.
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[Judge Levy] The terms of the lease
were starting in November of 2021...
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- Yes.
- [Judge Levy] ... to November 2022?
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- Yes.
- So in your complaint, Ms. Kirkland,
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- you said it was $2,300 a month.
- Yes, I--
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yeah, I paid 1,150 a month
and so did the tenant downstairs.
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Okay. And that you were going to split
the rent with your boyfriend
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- at the time?
- My ex.
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- [Judge Levy] Your ex-boyfriend?
- Uh-hmm.
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You moved in your ex?
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Daring. Okay.
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{\an8}- Silly move, yes.
- [Judge Levy] Well, well, okay.
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{\an8}[laughs]
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{\an8}[Judge Levy] And there was
a security deposit of how much?
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$500.
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- [Judge Levy] Correct so far?
- That's correct.
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All right. So there came a time
where your ex moved out.
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Uh-hmm.
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And then your 26-year-old son moved in,
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- correct?
- [Josie] Yes.
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And Win made me guarantee
that he would be there
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for at least between 12 and 24 months.
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But then come June of the following year,
Win turned around and said
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he's decided to sell
and we needed to move out.
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So it was--you say June, it could be July.
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I'm just looking at your paper...
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Well, I have a text message
at the end of June
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- and I gave her two months.
- [Judge Levy] Okay.
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What did you put in that text?
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Um, I put that I decided to sell my house
because I was traveling
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so much distance for work,
that I was gonna rent an apartment,
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and it was gonna take me
a while to clean it up.
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{\an8}And so I gave her until September 1st
and she didn't actually get out
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{\an8}till almost the 15th of September.
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[Judge Levy] Okay.
So now, you tell her in June 6, '21
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that the move-out date
becomes September 1.
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Yes.
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And that in order
for them to show the home,
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the home had to be completely cleaned out.
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- Exactly.
- Uh-hmm.
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[Judge Levy] All right.
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We have some photographs
of what the backyard looked like.
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Is that the way the backyard
looked like on June 21st
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when you got notice that September 1
was gonna be your move-out date?
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Uh, yes.
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So what we have, so everyone's clear,
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we got a wheelbarrow,
we got a bike, we have lots, lots of wood.
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Whose wood is that?
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There were some wood from underneath
the house that belonged to Win.
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There were some wood
that was there previously.
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It was all piled together.
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Was anyone working,
like a woodworker in your--in your home?
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- Her son.
- My son did--is a contractor.
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[Judge Levy] Hold on.
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You're saying that this was none
of your son's contracting...
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[Josie] Some of it was, yes.
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{\an8}My son would come in
and take a load, uh, to the dump,
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but you're only allowed to take so much.
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What happened was we got the snow,
that big, like, 12 feet of snow,
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so that's why most of that wood
couldn't be moved.
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[Judge Levy] I got it.
Whose bike was that?
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[Josie] I think that was his bike.
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- I don't know whose bike that was.
- [Alan] It was my bike.
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- Eventually, the trash people took...
- [Judge Levy] Okay.
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And what about the rabbit cage?
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- 'Cause I know that that...
- [Josie] The rabbit cage was mine.
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That cage collapsed,
so we put it all in that area.
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The wheelbarrow was Win's
and we were taking it all to the dump.
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And the notice
that you had gotten on June 21st
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indicated that you had to be out
September 1st...
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Right.
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... that the realtors
needed the place completely clean
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- so they could photograph it...
- [Josie] Right.
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... and get it up for sale.
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- So September 1st...
- Uh-hmm.
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[Judge Levy]
... were you completely moved out?
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No.
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September 1st was on a Friday
and so Win had messaged me and said,
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"Don't worry, you got a few extra days
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'cause I'm not even gonna be
coming back up the hill until next week."
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So I had a crew, um, that was coming by
on the Monday
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who didn't show up
and it was a holiday weekend,
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so I couldn't get anyone
to come to the house
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{\an8}until Wednesday,
which is what I did and I was out.
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[Judge Levy] Okay.
And what do you say, sir?
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00:06:27,767 --> 00:06:28,900
What's your position?
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Uh, my--I did give her a couple extra days
'cause I'm a pilot,
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I was on a trip,
and I gave her some grace.
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And I got back to the house
after she said she was out
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and I almost cried because my house was...
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- [Judge Levy] What date?
- It smelled--uh, September 5th.
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It smelled like animal urine.
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Even my realtors said,
"This house is in horrible condition."
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{\an8}Uh, all the towel racks were off,
the shower was a mess,
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{\an8}the vanity was broken,
fireplace stones were broken.
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This is the way
that one of the showers was left?
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- [Alan] Yup.
- [Judge Levy] Which shower is that?
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00:06:59,433 --> 00:07:01,166
[Josie] That's the--
where my son was, downstairs.
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[Judge Levy] Downstairs.
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00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,900
Yeah, and I did say to him, I said,
"Yes, he's a 26-year-old boy
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and he's a slob.
I don't know what to tell you."
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00:07:07,266 --> 00:07:09,100
Well, first of all,
he's a 26-year-old man.
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Oh, okay. A man.
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But the reason why
I was, um, not going to clean it for him
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was because when he moved out,
I cleaned the house.
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00:07:18,300 --> 00:07:22,166
When, uh, the tenant downstairs moved out,
I cleaned the house.
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00:07:22,233 --> 00:07:25,000
When I moved out,
he wanted me to go in there
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00:07:25,066 --> 00:07:28,867
and spit shine it so he didn't have
to worry about coming up the hill
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00:07:28,934 --> 00:07:30,233
and they could walk in and take pictures.
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- That--that's not true.
- Okay.
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- I had three cleaners come.
- [Judge Levy] Uh, hold on. Hold on.
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The gravamen of your claim, ma'am,
is that the defendant threw away $4,000
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- worth of your property.
- Right.
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00:07:39,767 --> 00:07:41,967
[Judge Levy] Now, you provided us
with a photograph.
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00:07:42,033 --> 00:07:44,500
That's a chandelier
that appears to be broken
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and it's never getting put back
to together again.
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00:07:46,700 --> 00:07:47,700
Oh, no.
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00:07:47,767 --> 00:07:49,033
[Judge Levy]
How much did you pay for that?
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$360.
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00:07:50,500 --> 00:07:52,433
- [Judge Levy] Show me proof.
- I don't have proof.
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00:07:52,500 --> 00:07:54,367
It was, like, three years ago.
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00:07:54,433 --> 00:07:58,133
What we cannot do is simply accept
what you said as being the value.
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{\an8}- [Josie] Right.
- You can say absolutely anything.
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00:07:59,567 --> 00:08:02,433
{\an8}Well, I tried to go online
and find something comparable,
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00:08:02,500 --> 00:08:03,767
{\an8}but it was from an antique store.
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[Judge Levy] And this was
a prized possession of yours?
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00:08:06,266 --> 00:08:07,400
[Josie] Yes.
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00:08:07,467 --> 00:08:09,667
[Judge Levy] So where in the house
did you keep this prized possession
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00:08:09,734 --> 00:08:10,734
that he ended up destroying?
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00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,400
I kept it in the crawlspace
underneath the house.
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00:08:13,467 --> 00:08:14,600
- [Judge Levy] Underneath the house?
- Underneath the house.
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00:08:14,667 --> 00:08:15,667
[Judge Levy] Okay.
196
00:08:15,734 --> 00:08:17,233
What's this a photograph of?
197
00:08:18,066 --> 00:08:20,500
{\an8}[Josie] That--the table and chair
belongs to the tenant
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00:08:20,567 --> 00:08:21,967
{\an8}that used to live downstairs
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00:08:22,033 --> 00:08:24,533
who refused to come back and pick it up.
200
00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,433
{\an8}[Judge Levy] And that's a carjack,
that's a table, that's a chair,
201
00:08:26,500 --> 00:08:28,433
{\an8}- so that's not your property?
- [Josie] No.
202
00:08:28,500 --> 00:08:29,734
{\an8}[Judge Levy]
What other evidence do you have
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00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,867
of items to establish the $4,000 value
that you're suing him for?
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00:08:34,934 --> 00:08:37,467
I don't have anything
because when I got there,
205
00:08:37,533 --> 00:08:43,533
the stuff in the yard that was mine,
all my furniture, all my statues,
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00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,400
and the chandeliers
that were under the house
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00:08:45,467 --> 00:08:47,133
were in the back of a dump truck.
208
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,700
The only item that you provided us with
was the chandelier
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00:08:50,767 --> 00:08:52,200
that you kept
under the crawlspace of the house?
210
00:08:52,266 --> 00:08:53,600
- Yes.
- [Judge Levy] Okay.
211
00:08:53,667 --> 00:08:55,200
Thank you. Judge Acker.
212
00:08:55,266 --> 00:08:57,233
I just wanna make sure that we're clear.
213
00:08:57,300 --> 00:08:59,433
Your move-out date was September 1st.
214
00:08:59,500 --> 00:09:00,567
Yes.
215
00:09:00,633 --> 00:09:04,800
{\an8}It is undisputed
that the property over which you're suing,
216
00:09:04,867 --> 00:09:09,500
you didn't come back and try to get it
until September 9th or 10th.
217
00:09:09,567 --> 00:09:11,533
Right. I had all my items in the back...
218
00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,900
Why didn't you get these things out
when the lease ended?
219
00:09:16,900 --> 00:09:19,433
[announcer] Coming up on Tribunal Justice.
220
00:09:19,500 --> 00:09:22,266
- Who's your witness, sir?
- Uh, my witness is her ex-boyfriend...
221
00:09:22,333 --> 00:09:23,333
Yeah.
222
00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:24,400
... who lived in my house
for six months.
223
00:09:24,467 --> 00:09:26,000
[dramatic musical sting]
224
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,734
{\an8}[theme music plays]
225
00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,867
{\an8}[announcer] Josie Kirkland is suing
former landlord and friend Alan Kutz
226
00:09:33,934 --> 00:09:39,166
for $4,000, claiming he trashed
her property while she was moving out.
227
00:09:39,233 --> 00:09:43,967
Alan is countersuing for $4,000,
claiming Josie left his mountain home
228
00:09:44,033 --> 00:09:46,834
damaged and in a mess.
229
00:09:46,900 --> 00:09:50,000
{\an8}Why didn't you get these things out
when the lease ended?
230
00:09:50,066 --> 00:09:51,100
{\an8}I agreed with him
231
00:09:51,166 --> 00:09:52,867
{\an8}'cause he said, "I need to get
in the house to take pictures."
232
00:09:52,934 --> 00:09:54,000
{\an8}And I said, "Okay."
233
00:09:54,066 --> 00:09:56,600
I got out of the house,
I cleaned everything,
234
00:09:56,667 --> 00:09:58,867
{\an8}I swept, I wiped everything down.
235
00:09:58,934 --> 00:10:00,567
{\an8}He said,
"I need to get in and take pictures."
236
00:10:00,633 --> 00:10:03,400
And I said, "Okay. But I still got
some stuff in the backyard."
237
00:10:03,467 --> 00:10:05,633
He said, "Don't worry about that.
238
00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:08,867
I've got--I got crew guys coming in,
take what you're gonna take," he said,
239
00:10:08,934 --> 00:10:09,934
"And then we'll sort you out."
240
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,367
So I got everything out of the house,
I sent him a message saying,
241
00:10:14,433 --> 00:10:17,300
{\an8}"Everything down in the backyard,
I would put down in the back
242
00:10:17,367 --> 00:10:18,400
{\an8}and I will come pick it up."
243
00:10:18,467 --> 00:10:20,400
{\an8}I put it out of the way towards the Jeep.
244
00:10:20,467 --> 00:10:23,834
But I'm trying to understand, ma'am,
why it is you believe
245
00:10:23,900 --> 00:10:27,667
that somebody would have any liability
for property that was left
246
00:10:27,734 --> 00:10:30,467
days and days and days
after the termination date.
247
00:10:30,533 --> 00:10:31,800
Like, dates actually mean something.
248
00:10:31,867 --> 00:10:33,767
Because I spoke to an attorney
and they said,
249
00:10:33,834 --> 00:10:37,133
"By law, he can't touch your stuff
for 19 days."
250
00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:38,300
Who's your witness, ma'am?
251
00:10:38,367 --> 00:10:39,734
This is Patty who I work with.
252
00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,867
How do you know the defendant?
253
00:10:41,934 --> 00:10:45,734
I've been his dog groomer
for several years.
254
00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:46,934
[Judge Acker]
So you own the grooming shop...
255
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:48,166
{\an8}Yes, I do.
256
00:10:48,233 --> 00:10:49,233
{\an8}[Judge Acker] ... which is how he met her?
257
00:10:49,300 --> 00:10:51,467
{\an8}- Yes.
- And who's your witness, sir?
258
00:10:51,533 --> 00:10:53,667
- Uh, my witness is her ex-boyfriend...
- Take the stand.
259
00:10:53,734 --> 00:10:54,767
Yeah.
260
00:10:54,834 --> 00:10:55,900
... who lived in my house
for six months.
261
00:10:55,967 --> 00:10:57,967
- [Judge Acker] Yeah. So I saw that.
- Peter.
262
00:10:58,033 --> 00:11:01,700
{\an8}If you think that I'm going to take
with anything but a grain of salt
263
00:11:02,300 --> 00:11:04,533
{\an8}what somebody's ex-boyfriend says, uh...
264
00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:05,600
{\an8}[Josie] Thank you.
265
00:11:05,667 --> 00:11:07,533
[Judge Acker] ... when they're showing up
on opposite side of them in court...
266
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:08,600
Thank you, Judge.
267
00:11:08,667 --> 00:11:10,000
... uh, you have to take another think.
268
00:11:10,066 --> 00:11:12,066
But you're here to testify
so I'll hear what you have to say.
269
00:11:12,133 --> 00:11:16,800
Um, what I'm gonna testify to
is she sent me an email
270
00:11:16,867 --> 00:11:20,066
saying the things that I had left there,
I could come and get
271
00:11:20,133 --> 00:11:23,734
'cause she's moving out of the house,
she's buying a house, is what she told me.
272
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,066
And I said, "Congratulations."
273
00:11:25,133 --> 00:11:28,700
She said, "You need to contact Win."
I haven't spoke to Win in months.
274
00:11:28,767 --> 00:11:29,800
I contacted him.
275
00:11:29,867 --> 00:11:32,567
He said, "Yes, you have permission
to go back over there. Josie's gone."
276
00:11:32,633 --> 00:11:35,900
Also, Win did say,
"Josie said that you left wood there."
277
00:11:35,967 --> 00:11:38,266
And I thought,
"I don't know anything about this wood."
278
00:11:39,133 --> 00:11:41,734
I was dumbfounded when I got there
and saw the state of the place.
279
00:11:42,333 --> 00:11:45,300
So anyway, I go out in the back,
I saw there's somebody in the house.
280
00:11:45,367 --> 00:11:46,500
So I opened the sliding glass door.
281
00:11:46,567 --> 00:11:47,600
{\an8}I said, "Hello, anybody home?"
282
00:11:47,667 --> 00:11:49,500
{\an8}Josie comes walking down the stairs
and proceeds to tell me
283
00:11:49,567 --> 00:11:51,567
{\an8}that the coyote got a cat,
but the cat's okay.
284
00:11:51,633 --> 00:11:55,667
And I left
because I didn't wanna be there with her.
285
00:11:55,734 --> 00:11:58,033
And then I told Win she's not out,
and he thought she was out.
286
00:11:58,100 --> 00:11:59,300
- [Judge Acker] Okay.
- And that's why I went over there.
287
00:11:59,367 --> 00:12:00,734
[Judge Acker] Thank you for that.
288
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,867
Ma'am, what do you have
to offer in this case?
289
00:12:02,934 --> 00:12:06,033
Well, I'm aware of everything
that went on between...
290
00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:07,433
[Judge Acker]
You're not aware of everything.
291
00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:08,834
You weren't there 24/7.
292
00:12:08,900 --> 00:12:10,166
- I mean...
- To be perfectly hon...
293
00:12:10,233 --> 00:12:12,166
... you put it in the statement--
yeah, be perfectly honest.
294
00:12:12,233 --> 00:12:13,233
[Patricia] I'm gonna be
perfectly honest with you.
295
00:12:13,300 --> 00:12:14,300
Don't be imperfectly honest.
296
00:12:14,367 --> 00:12:16,600
I wouldn't have lived
in that house on a bet.
297
00:12:17,066 --> 00:12:21,200
{\an8}The, uh, deck upstairs
was dangerous to anybody.
298
00:12:21,266 --> 00:12:22,667
{\an8}And he was aware of that.
299
00:12:22,734 --> 00:12:23,734
{\an8}She told him.
300
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,800
It was in complete disarray.
301
00:12:25,867 --> 00:12:29,133
If somebody fell through it,
they would've been hurt terribly.
302
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:34,633
So the smell of dog urine
on untreated old rotted wood.
303
00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:36,100
Okay.
304
00:12:36,166 --> 00:12:37,467
That was inside the house.
305
00:12:37,533 --> 00:12:39,200
Uh, he expected her
306
00:12:39,266 --> 00:12:41,233
- to really be his house cleaner.
- Yeah.
307
00:12:41,300 --> 00:12:42,367
[Judge Acker] Okay. I'm gonna stop that...
308
00:12:42,433 --> 00:12:43,867
- She treated him...
- [Judge Acker] No, no, no, stop.
309
00:12:43,934 --> 00:12:48,200
Because when you are renting a home
and you move out of the home,
310
00:12:48,266 --> 00:12:49,734
you have to clean it up.
311
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,133
And now you can sit down,
unless one of my...
312
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:52,200
Okay.
313
00:12:52,266 --> 00:12:53,266
[Judge Acker]
... colleagues wants to hear from you.
314
00:12:53,333 --> 00:12:54,567
He would also call me...
315
00:12:54,633 --> 00:12:55,667
Hold on, hold on, hold on,
hold on, hold on.
316
00:12:55,734 --> 00:12:59,400
Can we put up
the defendant's pictures of damage?
317
00:12:59,467 --> 00:13:01,967
Now, tell me, what's she liable for here?
318
00:13:02,033 --> 00:13:03,700
[Alan] You see
all the scratches on the floor?
319
00:13:03,767 --> 00:13:06,567
The floor was uh, less than a year old
when they moved in.
320
00:13:06,633 --> 00:13:07,633
[Judge Acker] How do I know this?
321
00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:08,967
Look, I've been to Arrowhead.
322
00:13:09,033 --> 00:13:10,400
It's a place where there's mountain.
323
00:13:10,467 --> 00:13:12,000
It's a place where there's weather.
324
00:13:12,066 --> 00:13:13,633
People come and tramp
in and out of the houses.
325
00:13:13,700 --> 00:13:15,333
They leave snow. They're a mess.
326
00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,000
I don't have any basis of knowing
if that was her damage
327
00:13:18,066 --> 00:13:19,767
or pre-existing damage.
328
00:13:19,834 --> 00:13:22,767
Now, this was, you said,
your 26-year-old baby man's bathroom?
329
00:13:22,834 --> 00:13:23,867
Yes.
330
00:13:23,934 --> 00:13:25,567
So you admit
that you did that or that it was left...
331
00:13:25,633 --> 00:13:27,934
- Well, I didn't do that.
- It doesn't matter if you did it.
332
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,700
It was done under your auspices.
333
00:13:29,767 --> 00:13:32,300
You and your son are jointly
and severally liable.
334
00:13:32,367 --> 00:13:33,367
{\an8}Yes.
335
00:13:33,433 --> 00:13:35,233
{\an8}[Judge Acker] That means that he can go
after you, he can go after your son...
336
00:13:35,300 --> 00:13:36,300
{\an8}Yes.
337
00:13:36,367 --> 00:13:37,834
- ... he can go after you and your son.
- [Josie] Yes.
338
00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:38,934
He's going after you.
339
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,000
Yes.
340
00:13:40,066 --> 00:13:41,400
So I think you've got
some things to prove here.
341
00:13:41,467 --> 00:13:42,467
Judge DiMango.
342
00:13:42,533 --> 00:13:43,867
[Judge DiMango] Sir, you can
have a seat, ex-boyfriend/...
343
00:13:43,934 --> 00:13:45,066
Okay.
344
00:13:45,133 --> 00:13:46,367
- [Judge DiMango] ... whatever.
- Thank you.
345
00:13:46,433 --> 00:13:48,900
{\an8}Now, I'm confused
about who was living where
346
00:13:48,967 --> 00:13:51,400
{\an8}and what the property looked like
at what point in time.
347
00:13:51,467 --> 00:13:52,467
Okay.
348
00:13:52,533 --> 00:13:54,100
Is this before or after pictures?
349
00:13:54,166 --> 00:13:55,367
[Josie] That was when I moved out.
350
00:13:55,433 --> 00:13:56,433
- [Judge DiMango] That was when you moved?
- [Josie] Yes.
351
00:13:56,500 --> 00:13:57,500
[Judge DiMango] You agree?
And it looked like this when she left?
352
00:13:57,567 --> 00:13:59,500
Uh, yes, the upstairs was nice.
353
00:13:59,567 --> 00:14:02,033
[Judge DiMango] Okay,
so upstairs was nice where she lived.
354
00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:03,100
Yes.
355
00:14:03,166 --> 00:14:05,400
Now, we look to the room downstairs
356
00:14:05,467 --> 00:14:07,200
that you say you didn't wanna clean
357
00:14:07,266 --> 00:14:10,967
but your lease said
that you need to restore.
358
00:14:11,033 --> 00:14:13,066
Paragraph 31,
359
00:14:13,133 --> 00:14:16,467
"You shall restore the premises
to the same condition that it existed
360
00:14:16,533 --> 00:14:18,166
when the lease commenced."
361
00:14:18,233 --> 00:14:21,200
And that was spit shine clean.
362
00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:22,700
All right.
363
00:14:22,767 --> 00:14:24,300
What about this filthy shower?
364
00:14:24,367 --> 00:14:25,500
[Josie] Yes.
That shower should have been cleaned.
365
00:14:25,567 --> 00:14:26,600
- Yes.
- And it wasn't cleaned?
366
00:14:26,667 --> 00:14:27,700
No.
367
00:14:27,767 --> 00:14:29,166
[Judge DiMango]
And what about this broken deck.
368
00:14:29,233 --> 00:14:31,333
{\an8}Who drove on the deck and broke it?
369
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,867
{\an8}[Alan] My neighbor said
that they drove a truck on it.
370
00:14:33,934 --> 00:14:35,000
We don't own a truck.
371
00:14:35,066 --> 00:14:36,333
I don't know
what the neighbor's talking about.
372
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:37,533
- [Judge DiMango] Was this...
- Her car, Your--a car...
373
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:38,700
- The neighbor--the neighbor...
- [Judge DiMango] Okay.
374
00:14:38,767 --> 00:14:40,800
First of all,
your neighbors are not here to testify...
375
00:14:40,867 --> 00:14:41,934
- [Alan] Right.
- ... so that's hearsay.
376
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,000
[Alan] Right.
377
00:14:43,066 --> 00:14:44,367
So the bottom line is
we have this damaged deck.
378
00:14:44,433 --> 00:14:46,867
- Yes.
- Which my son fixed.
379
00:14:46,934 --> 00:14:48,734
And then with the snow
380
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,533
when they were shoveling,
it was broken again.
381
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,500
[Judge DiMango] And we have this stove.
382
00:14:52,567 --> 00:14:53,867
- This is pretty filthy.
- [Josie] Yeah.
383
00:14:53,934 --> 00:14:55,433
{\an8}And pretty disgusting,
but the kitchen was clean.
384
00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:56,500
{\an8}[Josie] That's how it was
when I went in...
385
00:14:56,567 --> 00:14:57,967
{\an8}[Judge DiMango] So I'm not so sure, sir...
386
00:14:58,033 --> 00:14:59,100
- No.
- [Judge DiMango] ... uh, based on...
387
00:14:59,166 --> 00:15:01,400
That's was the way it was left that way.
388
00:15:01,467 --> 00:15:04,500
So you want $4,000 for the mess.
389
00:15:04,567 --> 00:15:05,600
And he's already sent me
390
00:15:05,667 --> 00:15:07,066
- an invoice for 2,000.
- [Judge DiMango] And you want $4,000.
391
00:15:07,133 --> 00:15:09,800
He had already agreed to give me $2,000.
392
00:15:09,867 --> 00:15:12,266
Aha. That is absolutely true.
393
00:15:14,033 --> 00:15:16,200
[announcer] Coming up on Tribunal Justice.
394
00:15:16,266 --> 00:15:18,767
- Why didn't you accept the $2,000?
- I did.
395
00:15:18,834 --> 00:15:20,233
- Uh-uh.
- [Josie] Yes, I did.
396
00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:21,333
- Well, you're gonna show me...
- [Josie] Okay.
397
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:22,433
... and then I'll be wrong.
398
00:15:22,500 --> 00:15:24,200
[dramatic musical sting]
399
00:15:26,133 --> 00:15:27,867
{\an8}[theme music plays]
400
00:15:27,934 --> 00:15:30,767
{\an8}[announcer] Josie Kirkland
is suing landlord Alan Kutz
401
00:15:30,834 --> 00:15:34,834
{\an8}after her personal items were thrown away
while she was moving out.
402
00:15:35,734 --> 00:15:40,867
But Alan claims he gave Josie
ample time to pack up and get out.
403
00:15:40,934 --> 00:15:43,934
{\an8}There is a text message here
where you say,
404
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:50,000
"I'll Zelle you $2,000 today
if you leave me and my property alone
405
00:15:50,433 --> 00:15:53,233
as well as sign an agreement as such."
406
00:15:53,300 --> 00:15:54,567
{\an8}I was trying to sell my house.
407
00:15:54,633 --> 00:15:55,834
{\an8}[Judge DiMango]
Because it wasn't worth it for you
408
00:15:55,900 --> 00:15:58,467
{\an8}to keep her and that junk there.
409
00:15:58,533 --> 00:15:59,533
[Alan] I didn't--I didn't know...
410
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:00,667
- There.
- [Alan] ... what else to do.
411
00:16:00,734 --> 00:16:01,734
[Judge DiMango] Why didn't you accept
412
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,166
- the $2,000?
- [Josie] I did.
413
00:16:03,233 --> 00:16:04,300
- Uh-uh.
- Yes, I did.
414
00:16:04,367 --> 00:16:05,367
[Judge DiMango] Well, you're gonna show me
415
00:16:05,433 --> 00:16:06,433
- and then I'll be wrong.
- Okay.
416
00:16:08,066 --> 00:16:09,433
By the way, did you speak to your lawyer?
417
00:16:09,500 --> 00:16:10,533
Yes, I went [indistinct].
418
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,133
[Judge DiMango]
And what did the lawyer say?
419
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,834
{\an8}They're the ones that told me that
he shouldn't have got rid of my items.
420
00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:17,400
{\an8}I had 19 days and they said...
421
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,233
{\an8}I don't know where you get that from.
422
00:16:19,300 --> 00:16:22,900
... "If you agree to it,
then take the $2,000 and be done with it."
423
00:16:22,967 --> 00:16:23,967
- And you didn't?
- No.
424
00:16:24,033 --> 00:16:25,166
- I--ugh...
- You didn't.
425
00:16:25,233 --> 00:16:26,300
Okay, hang on.
426
00:16:26,367 --> 00:16:28,200
[Alan] And, Your Honor, after I...
427
00:16:28,734 --> 00:16:30,266
- [Judge DiMango] Yes?
- ... thought about that offer,
428
00:16:30,333 --> 00:16:32,633
{\an8}I went back and looked at my house
and almost cried
429
00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:35,100
{\an8}and I said,
"I'm--I can't give her that money.
430
00:16:35,166 --> 00:16:36,500
That's almost like extortion,
431
00:16:36,567 --> 00:16:39,333
because I'm just trying
to get her out of my house."
432
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:40,934
So then he messaged me and said,
433
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,700
"I'm going to have to borrow the money.
Please do it today."
434
00:16:44,767 --> 00:16:47,700
I said, "I will stop by the house
on my way to see if there are any items
435
00:16:47,767 --> 00:16:49,934
that you have, but you have a deal."
436
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:51,500
- [Judge DiMango] Can I have that, please?
- [Josie] Yeah, sure.
437
00:16:53,734 --> 00:16:54,867
Thanks, Cassandra.
438
00:16:54,934 --> 00:16:56,100
[Josie] You can scroll up and down.
439
00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:58,000
[Judge DiMango] Uh, he writes,
440
00:16:58,066 --> 00:17:00,367
"I'm going to have to borrow the money
so please do it today."
441
00:17:00,433 --> 00:17:01,567
[Josie] Right.
442
00:17:01,633 --> 00:17:03,867
{\an8}[Judge DiMango] "I will stop by the house
on my way home.
443
00:17:03,934 --> 00:17:06,066
{\an8}And if the items are there,
you have a deal."
444
00:17:06,133 --> 00:17:08,166
- Yeah.
- Did you stop by?
445
00:17:08,233 --> 00:17:10,166
- Yes.
- Did she stop by?
446
00:17:10,233 --> 00:17:11,233
Not that I know of.
447
00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:13,867
He says he doesn't know you stopped by.
Did you respond?
448
00:17:13,934 --> 00:17:14,934
No.
449
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,433
[Judge DiMango] I don't see a response.
450
00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:19,000
You didn't respond to him
like you said you would.
451
00:17:19,066 --> 00:17:20,200
I'm ready if you're ready.
452
00:17:20,266 --> 00:17:23,867
Okay. So September 23rd, sir,
you did prepare, as the landlord,
453
00:17:23,934 --> 00:17:27,800
a list of items that you had
spent money on to fix
454
00:17:27,867 --> 00:17:30,734
{\an8}along with the $500 security deposit
and you gave her a copy of that, correct?
455
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:31,900
Yes.
456
00:17:31,967 --> 00:17:34,500
My sense, sir,
is that you just wanted her out.
457
00:17:34,567 --> 00:17:36,800
You just wanted to sell--
did you sell the house by the way?
458
00:17:36,867 --> 00:17:38,033
- Yes, sir.
- [Judge Levy] Congratulations.
459
00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:40,066
So, you just wanted her out.
460
00:17:40,133 --> 00:17:42,066
And the reason
that you filed the countersuit
461
00:17:42,133 --> 00:17:45,066
is because you know that she was
trying to rake you over the coals
462
00:17:45,133 --> 00:17:47,100
and that she was trying
to extort you for 4 grand.
463
00:17:47,166 --> 00:17:48,200
- [Alan] Yeah.
- And that you didn't owe it.
464
00:17:48,266 --> 00:17:50,233
You never would've brought up
the other four--
465
00:17:50,300 --> 00:17:51,233
true? Okay.
466
00:17:51,300 --> 00:17:52,600
Thank you so much for being honest.
467
00:17:52,667 --> 00:17:54,300
- I have nothing further.
- We're gonna retire to deliberate.
468
00:17:54,367 --> 00:17:55,400
Thank you both.
469
00:17:55,467 --> 00:17:58,333
This case is now in recess.
Parties will be recalled.
470
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,033
[dramatic musical sting]
471
00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:03,100
[Judge Levy] Word to the wise.
472
00:18:03,166 --> 00:18:06,934
If you're gonna file a lawsuit
as a tenant against your landlord
473
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,633
claiming that they
threw away items of yours,
474
00:18:09,700 --> 00:18:14,567
you should prepare a list and have values
and receipts to support your claim.
475
00:18:14,633 --> 00:18:15,734
Unless you don't. [laughs]
476
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,600
And if you don't,
then you end up with a big goose egg.
477
00:18:19,667 --> 00:18:20,667
Unless you got nothing to prove.
478
00:18:20,734 --> 00:18:24,900
I really couldn't place my finger
on why she was doing what she was doing.
479
00:18:24,967 --> 00:18:27,800
There was obviously something else
that was going on that she was upset.
480
00:18:27,867 --> 00:18:31,033
And I think maybe we got a glimmer of it.
481
00:18:31,100 --> 00:18:34,033
She spoke to someone.
She said it was a lawyer.
482
00:18:34,100 --> 00:18:36,600
So perhaps she was just
given some bad advice
483
00:18:36,667 --> 00:18:38,433
and then overplayed her hand,
484
00:18:38,500 --> 00:18:41,000
and that's why she ended up where she is,
'cause I do not believe
485
00:18:41,066 --> 00:18:43,934
based upon her testimony that
she's entitled to anything whatsoever.
486
00:18:44,700 --> 00:18:48,900
As far as the counterclaim goes,
listen, the defendant said,
487
00:18:48,967 --> 00:18:50,633
"I felt like I was being shaken down,
488
00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:53,333
you know, it was like extortion
and I had to get her out.
489
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,567
The only reason why I ended up
filing this counterclaim against her is
490
00:18:56,633 --> 00:18:59,200
'cause she filed this nonsense
$4,000 claim against me."
491
00:18:59,967 --> 00:19:02,367
The problem is that
he kept the $500 security
492
00:19:02,433 --> 00:19:04,867
and he provided us with no evidence
493
00:19:04,934 --> 00:19:08,166
of the way that the house looked,
the grounds looked prior to her moving in.
494
00:19:08,233 --> 00:19:11,700
So there would really be no way to prove
what was there, what wasn't there.
495
00:19:11,767 --> 00:19:14,734
We just know that there was
a lot of comingled stuff there.
496
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:16,967
And this will not come
as a surprise to him.
497
00:19:17,033 --> 00:19:20,066
If you two agree with me,
I would dismiss his counterclaim as well.
498
00:19:20,133 --> 00:19:21,400
I'm right there with you.
499
00:19:21,467 --> 00:19:24,166
I mean, notwithstanding the fact
that her ex-boyfriend says,
500
00:19:24,233 --> 00:19:26,200
"But no, no, it wasn't like that."
501
00:19:26,266 --> 00:19:27,834
You know, a mountain house like this
502
00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:31,400
is going to have more normal wear and tear
than another place might.
503
00:19:31,467 --> 00:19:34,834
So like picking on these scratches,
uh, I have no basis of knowing
504
00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:37,166
if she caused them,
if they're pre-existing.
505
00:19:37,233 --> 00:19:39,567
I agree that his case should be dismissed
506
00:19:39,633 --> 00:19:43,133
because it's pretty hard to establish
mess and filth all over the place.
507
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:49,000
And her, I didn't see one thing in total
that was worth $500 that she had there.
508
00:19:49,066 --> 00:19:50,333
And I have a statement here.
509
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,033
This is on the 10th of September.
510
00:19:52,100 --> 00:19:53,533
He tells her,
"You told me everything was out.
511
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,834
The house isn't empty
and I'm gonna have to be forced
512
00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:57,734
to throw your things in the backyard.
513
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,667
I'm gonna have somebody come tomorrow",
that would've been on the 11th.
514
00:20:00,734 --> 00:20:03,000
So anything that she complained
that they destroyed on her
515
00:20:03,066 --> 00:20:05,800
was really something
that she should have expected at the time.
516
00:20:05,867 --> 00:20:07,667
I wanna dismiss both cases.
517
00:20:07,734 --> 00:20:09,066
Well said. I'm with you.
518
00:20:09,133 --> 00:20:11,300
All right, unanimous.
519
00:20:11,367 --> 00:20:14,233
[dramatic musical sting]
520
00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:15,467
[Cassandra] Court is back in session.
521
00:20:15,533 --> 00:20:17,800
All parties are reminded
that you're still under oath.
522
00:20:17,867 --> 00:20:18,867
[Judge Levy] Thank you, Cassandra.
523
00:20:18,934 --> 00:20:20,934
All right, Ms. Kirkland,
one of the most important things
524
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,367
that a plaintiff in your position
would've provided was an itemized list.
525
00:20:24,433 --> 00:20:25,433
Uh-hmm.
526
00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:28,433
[Judge Levy] Those items, their value,
and proof of those values.
527
00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:29,900
If you had it,
I'm sure you would've brought it,
528
00:20:29,967 --> 00:20:32,900
but it's as a result
of that failure on your part
529
00:20:32,967 --> 00:20:34,633
that it's the unanimous decision
of the court
530
00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:36,367
that we have to dismiss your claim.
531
00:20:36,433 --> 00:20:37,433
Okay.
532
00:20:37,500 --> 00:20:39,367
[Judge Levy]
As far as the counterclaim goes,
533
00:20:39,433 --> 00:20:42,133
the reason in part
that we're dismissing the counterclaim
534
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,533
is one thing that we did not see
535
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,433
was the condition of the home
before the plaintiff moved in.
536
00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:51,200
What we did hear
was that there was a lot of, uh,
537
00:20:51,266 --> 00:20:56,533
comingling of old wood with new wood,
new junk with some older junk,
538
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,734
and there was really
no way to parse that out.
539
00:20:59,367 --> 00:21:02,100
- You sold the home, congratulations.
- Thank you.
540
00:21:02,166 --> 00:21:04,633
You found a new home, congratulations.
541
00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:06,867
You both seem like really nice people.
542
00:21:06,934 --> 00:21:09,934
{\an8}We thank you for coming in
and both of the matters are dismissed.
543
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,033
{\an8}- Thank you so much.
- Thank you, Judge.
544
00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:12,467
{\an8}- Thank you.
- [gavel bangs]
545
00:21:12,533 --> 00:21:15,066
{\an8}This case has concluded.
All parties are dismissed.
546
00:21:15,133 --> 00:21:16,033
{\an8}[theme music plays]
547
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,834
{\an8}I'm upset that I've now lost my deposit
and all my items.
548
00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:25,233
{\an8}I feel like I was being
extorted for money.
549
00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:26,834
{\an8}I'm an extortionist.
550
00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:27,900
{\an8}No.
551
00:21:27,967 --> 00:21:29,867
{\an8}Lesson learned. Yeah.
552
00:21:29,934 --> 00:21:32,266
{\an8}And now, I bought a house
and I'm never gonna rent it out.
553
00:21:32,333 --> 00:21:34,367
{\an8}I'm gonna stay there. Life is good.
554
00:21:34,433 --> 00:21:36,000
{\an8}Lose-lose for me, I guess.
555
00:21:36,533 --> 00:21:37,800
{\an8}[announcer] Are you being sued?
556
00:21:37,867 --> 00:21:41,133
{\an8}Let Tribunal Justice decide your case.
557
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,367
{\an8}Find us on social media
at Tribunal Justice.
558
00:21:45,433 --> 00:21:48,700
{\an8}["Ride of the Valkyries" plays]