1 00:00:02,003 --> 00:00:04,336 (dramatic music) 2 00:00:05,914 --> 00:00:09,399 - A man from the town of varick was killed accidentally 3 00:00:09,418 --> 00:00:10,676 When a truck fell on him. 4 00:00:13,922 --> 00:00:16,590 - [narrator] a mysterious death turns into a homicide. 5 00:00:16,742 --> 00:00:20,352 - She believed that her husband had killed his son, levi. 6 00:00:20,579 --> 00:00:22,504 - [narrator] a troubling pattern emerges. 7 00:00:22,523 --> 00:00:24,081 - There was a suspicious death 8 00:00:24,099 --> 00:00:26,007 With karl karlsen's first wife. 9 00:00:26,027 --> 00:00:27,860 - She was taking a bath. 10 00:00:32,941 --> 00:00:35,868 - He collected a million and half dollars of tax-free money. 11 00:00:36,095 --> 00:00:38,353 - If he's the person we think he is, 12 00:00:38,372 --> 00:00:40,706 Then other people are at risk. 13 00:00:40,933 --> 00:00:43,375 - [narrator] investigators searching for answers 14 00:00:43,527 --> 00:00:45,210 In the interrogation room. 15 00:00:48,698 --> 00:00:51,550 (dramatic music) (clock ticking) 16 00:00:55,372 --> 00:00:56,871 - [narrator] every suspect accused 17 00:00:56,891 --> 00:00:59,374 Of a crime has the right to remain silent. 18 00:00:59,393 --> 00:01:02,061 Many agree to be interrogated anyway, 19 00:01:02,288 --> 00:01:05,046 But they can stop the interview at any moment, 20 00:01:05,066 --> 00:01:07,191 Making it a race against time. 21 00:01:09,070 --> 00:01:11,236 Justice hangs in the balance. 22 00:01:15,317 --> 00:01:17,868 (ominous music) 23 00:01:22,324 --> 00:01:24,208 (phone ringing) 24 00:01:50,444 --> 00:01:53,612 - Deputies say that 23 year old, levi karlsen was working 25 00:01:53,839 --> 00:01:56,097 On a full size chevrolet pickup truck 26 00:01:56,117 --> 00:01:57,691 When the jacks apparently slipped, 27 00:01:57,843 --> 00:01:59,767 Trapping karlsen underneath. 28 00:01:59,862 --> 00:02:01,528 Karlsen was discovered by his father 29 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,123 And was transported to the geneva general hospital, 30 00:02:04,350 --> 00:02:06,125 Where he was pronounced dead upon arrival. 31 00:02:07,962 --> 00:02:09,353 - The initial report was 32 00:02:09,371 --> 00:02:11,538 That karl karlsen and his wife, cindy karlsen, 33 00:02:11,690 --> 00:02:13,132 Were at their home in the morning 34 00:02:13,283 --> 00:02:16,026 When levi karlsen came over to work on a truck 35 00:02:16,044 --> 00:02:19,621 That was in a detached garage barn. 36 00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:22,215 Karl and his wife had left at around noon that day 37 00:02:22,309 --> 00:02:25,035 To go to a funeral down in penn yan, new york, 38 00:02:25,053 --> 00:02:27,295 Which is about 45 minutes away. 39 00:02:27,389 --> 00:02:30,874 They returned sometime after four o'clock that afternoon. 40 00:02:30,967 --> 00:02:32,467 And then cindy went in the house. 41 00:02:32,561 --> 00:02:34,878 Karl went out into the barn. 42 00:02:34,971 --> 00:02:37,472 - Karl said he found levi on the floor, 43 00:02:37,491 --> 00:02:39,307 The truck on top of him. 44 00:02:39,401 --> 00:02:41,326 - And he told cindy, "call 911. 45 00:02:41,478 --> 00:02:45,164 Levi is crushed under the truck, unresponsive." 46 00:02:47,317 --> 00:02:49,334 (solemn music) 47 00:02:49,486 --> 00:02:51,395 Levi was 23, when he died, 48 00:02:51,488 --> 00:02:54,414 He had left behind two young kids, 49 00:02:54,566 --> 00:02:57,083 And was trying to make a life for himself 50 00:02:57,236 --> 00:02:58,302 After a troubled childhood. 51 00:02:59,588 --> 00:03:02,848 (soft, somber music) 52 00:03:09,673 --> 00:03:11,673 - Levi married very young. 53 00:03:11,692 --> 00:03:14,676 He was a hard-working young man, 54 00:03:14,695 --> 00:03:16,195 Worked hard to support his family. 55 00:03:17,606 --> 00:03:20,991 (soft instrumental music) 56 00:03:23,019 --> 00:03:26,688 - And I think most people would say unfortunate. 57 00:03:26,707 --> 00:03:31,376 What a tragedy, a 23 year old boy is killed for no reason. 58 00:03:37,626 --> 00:03:40,777 Based upon all the information that was given to the police, 59 00:03:40,870 --> 00:03:43,113 It was clearly, in everybody's mind, 60 00:03:43,206 --> 00:03:44,539 It was an accident that happened 61 00:03:44,558 --> 00:03:47,226 When levi was alone in this barn. 62 00:03:48,787 --> 00:03:51,121 - The medical examiner signed off on it 63 00:03:51,139 --> 00:03:52,880 As an accidental death. 64 00:03:52,975 --> 00:03:55,642 (dramatic percussive music) 65 00:03:55,736 --> 00:03:57,794 - Investigators in the seneca county sheriff's department 66 00:03:57,813 --> 00:03:59,646 Have decided that a man 67 00:03:59,798 --> 00:04:02,799 From the town of varick was killed accidentally 68 00:04:02,818 --> 00:04:04,392 When a truck fell on him. 69 00:04:04,411 --> 00:04:06,803 - Deputies say the cause of death was massive trauma 70 00:04:06,896 --> 00:04:09,206 To the chest due to a crush injury. 71 00:04:14,496 --> 00:04:17,089 (clock ticking) 72 00:04:28,494 --> 00:04:30,918 - She said she had heard from karl's second wife, 73 00:04:30,938 --> 00:04:33,588 Cindy karlsen, and that cindy had told her 74 00:04:33,607 --> 00:04:35,923 That she had left her husband, 75 00:04:35,943 --> 00:04:38,685 And that she was afraid he was gonna come after her. 76 00:04:38,779 --> 00:04:39,945 And that she believed 77 00:04:40,172 --> 00:04:42,281 That her husband had killed his son, levi. 78 00:04:44,676 --> 00:04:47,010 It was really kind of hearsay at that point, 79 00:04:47,029 --> 00:04:51,773 But we decided to take another look at it, nonetheless. 80 00:04:51,792 --> 00:04:54,293 (tense music) 81 00:05:03,529 --> 00:05:05,620 - 17 days before the death of levi, 82 00:05:05,714 --> 00:05:07,806 Karl takes levi up to a bank 83 00:05:08,033 --> 00:05:10,976 And he takes out a life insurance policy on levi, 84 00:05:12,313 --> 00:05:13,887 But with a rider 85 00:05:13,981 --> 00:05:18,558 That makes the value of life insurance policy $700,000. 86 00:05:18,652 --> 00:05:21,711 - When I first reviewed the report from 2008, 87 00:05:21,730 --> 00:05:24,489 There was no mention of an insurance policy. 88 00:05:24,641 --> 00:05:27,284 (dramatic music) 89 00:05:33,149 --> 00:05:37,060 - Of that money, karl just spent money freely 90 00:05:37,153 --> 00:05:40,005 And didn't put away any savings for levi's kids. 91 00:05:41,750 --> 00:05:44,343 We realized we need to take a look at this karl karlsen 92 00:05:44,494 --> 00:05:46,994 And see what this person's really like. 93 00:05:47,014 --> 00:05:49,639 (dramatic music) 94 00:05:59,267 --> 00:06:01,360 - In 1991, karl and christina lived 95 00:06:01,511 --> 00:06:04,421 With their three children in a very small house 96 00:06:04,514 --> 00:06:07,866 On a very rural property in the woods. 97 00:06:08,093 --> 00:06:11,094 Karl said that the children were down for a nap 98 00:06:11,113 --> 00:06:13,163 And that christina was taking a bath. 99 00:06:14,875 --> 00:06:18,025 - Karl was out in a work shed and he hears the screams. 100 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,214 (dramatic music) (fire crackling) 101 00:06:22,441 --> 00:06:25,108 He just said he managed to rescue his children, 102 00:06:25,127 --> 00:06:27,844 And pull them out of their windows of their bedrooms, 103 00:06:29,281 --> 00:06:31,706 But he was driven back by the flames and the heat 104 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:33,850 When he tried to rescue his wife. 105 00:06:35,562 --> 00:06:38,230 (dramatic music) 106 00:06:39,716 --> 00:06:41,975 - Christina was a small-town girl 107 00:06:42,127 --> 00:06:44,719 From rural calaveras county. 108 00:06:44,738 --> 00:06:48,131 Her daughter, erin, recalled the lightness and love 109 00:06:48,150 --> 00:06:50,575 That was in the home when christina was there, 110 00:06:50,727 --> 00:06:53,803 She would take the kids for long walks through nature, 111 00:06:53,822 --> 00:06:56,230 She'd take 'em to the ice cream shop. 112 00:06:56,250 --> 00:06:59,309 - She was a mother that just showered her children 113 00:06:59,327 --> 00:07:01,545 With love and support and guidance. 114 00:07:05,408 --> 00:07:07,426 I put a call into the investigator 115 00:07:07,577 --> 00:07:10,336 That was very passionate about the case back then, 116 00:07:10,489 --> 00:07:11,821 And he literally almost broke down crying 117 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:13,247 When he received my call. 118 00:07:13,267 --> 00:07:16,342 "oh my god, I always dreamed that someday, 119 00:07:16,437 --> 00:07:19,663 Someday this call would come, and here it is." 120 00:07:19,756 --> 00:07:21,347 - Karl gave three different versions 121 00:07:21,500 --> 00:07:24,668 Of what happened that day, how that fire started. 122 00:07:24,686 --> 00:07:26,670 - He was a volunteer firefighter at one point. 123 00:07:26,763 --> 00:07:30,190 So he has some knowledge of fire. 124 00:07:30,342 --> 00:07:34,177 He claimed that the dog had knocked over a jug of kerosene. 125 00:07:34,196 --> 00:07:37,789 Later, he said that this light blew out. 126 00:07:38,016 --> 00:07:40,533 There's different stories as to what the cause was, 127 00:07:40,627 --> 00:07:43,444 But it was suspicious. 128 00:07:43,538 --> 00:07:46,131 (suspenseful music) 129 00:08:02,316 --> 00:08:05,466 - Karl claims that he had boarded this window up 130 00:08:05,486 --> 00:08:06,985 Because the window was broken. 131 00:08:09,231 --> 00:08:10,947 He used 17 nails. 132 00:08:12,659 --> 00:08:16,886 - Christina had a $150,000 life insurance policy on her 133 00:08:16,905 --> 00:08:18,663 At the time of her death. 134 00:08:18,815 --> 00:08:20,332 Karl got the money 135 00:08:20,483 --> 00:08:24,503 And used it largely to finance his move back to new york 136 00:08:24,730 --> 00:08:27,339 And kind of start over again with the kids. 137 00:08:29,510 --> 00:08:32,493 - The investigator said he was told karl went to new york, 138 00:08:32,587 --> 00:08:34,087 He's new york's problem now, 139 00:08:34,181 --> 00:08:36,406 And we're not putting the money into this case anymore. 140 00:08:36,424 --> 00:08:38,258 Just let it go. 141 00:08:38,352 --> 00:08:42,854 But he then said that he photocopied every single record, 142 00:08:43,006 --> 00:08:44,648 And, "they're in a box in my basement." 143 00:08:53,258 --> 00:08:55,108 - We didn't want karl to get tipped off, 144 00:08:55,202 --> 00:08:56,943 But it came pretty clear 145 00:08:57,037 --> 00:08:59,279 That if we were gonna make any kind of progress with this, 146 00:08:59,431 --> 00:09:02,282 We had to talk to somebody close to karl. 147 00:09:02,376 --> 00:09:05,192 We make the decision to reach out to cindy karlsen. 148 00:09:05,212 --> 00:09:06,193 And she said, 149 00:09:06,288 --> 00:09:07,937 "I left and got out of there 150 00:09:08,031 --> 00:09:10,940 Because I think I might be next." 151 00:09:10,959 --> 00:09:13,459 She said she had hired a private investigator 152 00:09:13,554 --> 00:09:15,111 Because of her fears. 153 00:09:15,130 --> 00:09:17,447 So we brought her in for an interview 154 00:09:17,465 --> 00:09:19,516 And she was good at supplying us information. 155 00:09:20,969 --> 00:09:23,469 She said he was emotionally and mentally cruel to her 156 00:09:23,564 --> 00:09:25,121 During their marriage. 157 00:09:25,140 --> 00:09:26,714 Same with the children. 158 00:09:26,808 --> 00:09:29,626 - Most of the aggression was focused on levi growing up, 159 00:09:29,644 --> 00:09:31,218 Even when he was a small child. 160 00:09:31,238 --> 00:09:32,887 At one point, 161 00:09:32,981 --> 00:09:35,982 He actually broke a cutting board over levi's backside. 162 00:09:36,076 --> 00:09:39,135 - And if he wanted something, he wanted it now. 163 00:09:39,154 --> 00:09:42,322 So, very, very poor impulse control type of person, 164 00:09:42,474 --> 00:09:44,541 That if you gave him $20, he'd spend 40. 165 00:09:46,420 --> 00:09:49,045 (dramatic music) 166 00:09:56,338 --> 00:09:59,489 Cindy told us that when they got back from this funeral, 167 00:09:59,507 --> 00:10:01,082 The radio in the garage 168 00:10:01,101 --> 00:10:04,327 Where levi was working was blasting on full volume 169 00:10:04,420 --> 00:10:07,013 And it was on a country music station. 170 00:10:07,107 --> 00:10:08,440 - But the one thing that 171 00:10:08,667 --> 00:10:10,516 Cindy was questioning is, why country music? 172 00:10:10,669 --> 00:10:12,093 Levi hated country music. 173 00:10:12,112 --> 00:10:14,595 He only listened to hard rock music. 174 00:10:14,615 --> 00:10:17,340 - When you put it in context to the investigation, 175 00:10:17,359 --> 00:10:19,784 You think, well, if he's crushed under this truck 176 00:10:20,011 --> 00:10:22,178 And he's dying and he's making noise, 177 00:10:22,271 --> 00:10:24,364 Could karl have cranked up that radio 178 00:10:24,516 --> 00:10:25,749 To cover up those noises? 179 00:10:27,519 --> 00:10:30,253 That really puts it in a more sinister light. 180 00:10:38,380 --> 00:10:41,806 (dramatic percussive music) 181 00:10:43,702 --> 00:10:45,459 - The patterns were simple. 182 00:10:45,479 --> 00:10:50,131 They were easy to see once you really dug into karl's life. 183 00:10:50,150 --> 00:10:52,776 (fire crackling) 184 00:10:58,049 --> 00:11:01,809 Between the insurance money he collected on levi 185 00:11:01,903 --> 00:11:05,312 And on christina and the fires, 186 00:11:05,332 --> 00:11:06,831 He collected somewhere probably in the neighborhood 187 00:11:06,983 --> 00:11:10,835 Of a million and a half dollars of tax-free money, 188 00:11:11,062 --> 00:11:13,463 And he spent through that money immediately. 189 00:11:15,066 --> 00:11:17,583 - We do have a lot of alarming information, 190 00:11:17,736 --> 00:11:20,512 But it's still all circumstantial evidence. 191 00:11:20,739 --> 00:11:22,681 It's possible to get a conviction on a case 192 00:11:22,832 --> 00:11:24,407 With just circumstantial evidence, 193 00:11:24,426 --> 00:11:26,333 But you need a lot of it. 194 00:11:26,353 --> 00:11:28,520 - And that's why we took months to investigate karl. 195 00:11:28,671 --> 00:11:30,689 We were not gonna rush this and screw this up. 196 00:11:36,697 --> 00:11:39,322 (dramatic music) 197 00:11:45,430 --> 00:11:48,932 - Cindy says, "look, he keeps calling me and texting me. 198 00:11:48,950 --> 00:11:50,709 He wants to get back together." 199 00:11:50,860 --> 00:11:52,377 And she goes, "karl and I, 200 00:11:52,528 --> 00:11:55,605 We were having lunch and he admitted to killing levi 201 00:11:55,698 --> 00:11:57,215 'cause he was a burden on the family." 202 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:00,201 She brings in a recorder. 203 00:12:00,295 --> 00:12:01,627 I'm excited at this point, 204 00:12:01,780 --> 00:12:04,113 Maybe we finally have what we need, 205 00:12:04,132 --> 00:12:06,950 And we try it and the recorder failed. 206 00:12:07,043 --> 00:12:09,469 It didn't pick up any of that. 207 00:12:09,621 --> 00:12:11,804 So, we had a team meeting about it. 208 00:12:11,957 --> 00:12:14,457 Do we see this as an opportunity? 209 00:12:14,476 --> 00:12:16,192 'cause he wants to get back together. 210 00:12:17,571 --> 00:12:19,571 We end up deciding to take a calculated risk. 211 00:12:21,466 --> 00:12:24,534 We picked a place, abigail's restaurant in seneca falls. 212 00:12:26,304 --> 00:12:29,414 - We worked with cindy for many days to plan this thing. 213 00:12:31,977 --> 00:12:35,378 (dramatic percussive music) 214 00:12:40,427 --> 00:12:41,985 - Inside the restaurant, 215 00:12:42,078 --> 00:12:44,763 We put four undercover officers nearby 216 00:12:44,914 --> 00:12:47,223 So they can testify they at least heard parts of it. 217 00:12:49,177 --> 00:12:52,103 (indistinct chatter) (dinnerware clattering) 218 00:13:21,042 --> 00:13:22,692 - Levi karlsen. 219 00:13:22,710 --> 00:13:25,136 We came to know him as a man who had a troubled youth. 220 00:13:25,363 --> 00:13:27,305 He didn't see eye to eye with his father. 221 00:13:27,456 --> 00:13:30,958 So it kind of stood out to us that this death occurs 222 00:13:30,977 --> 00:13:34,128 Right when they've kind of reconciled. 223 00:13:34,147 --> 00:13:36,481 (dramatic music) 224 00:14:00,323 --> 00:14:02,248 - We have investigators in abigail's. 225 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,084 We have investigators outside of abigail's. 226 00:14:05,236 --> 00:14:07,512 But ultimately it's cindy who's gonna try 227 00:14:07,663 --> 00:14:11,349 To convince her husband that it's okay for him to tell her 228 00:14:11,500 --> 00:14:14,018 How he had murdered his son, levi. 229 00:15:07,908 --> 00:15:11,134 - Right away in my mind, that sealed the deal 230 00:15:11,227 --> 00:15:13,244 That what kind of person he was. 231 00:15:13,471 --> 00:15:15,488 I'm a parent, I have four children, 232 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,250 No parent refers to the death of a child as an opportunity. 233 00:15:51,284 --> 00:15:54,953 - Karl had offered his son $50 to do some work 234 00:15:55,180 --> 00:15:57,956 On the undercarriage of this farm truck. 235 00:16:59,744 --> 00:17:02,520 - He doesn't exactly repeat that he killed levi, 236 00:17:02,747 --> 00:17:06,173 But now he expects her to take him back, 237 00:17:06,192 --> 00:17:08,192 And we can't put her in that type of risk. 238 00:17:08,344 --> 00:17:11,678 So, we make the decision to go forward with his interview, 239 00:17:11,698 --> 00:17:13,606 But we're not going to arrest him. 240 00:17:13,758 --> 00:17:16,275 We're gonna see if he'll come in voluntarily. 241 00:17:16,369 --> 00:17:17,760 (dramatic music) 242 00:17:17,779 --> 00:17:20,371 (clock ticking) 243 00:17:30,441 --> 00:17:32,717 We introduce ourselves and say "you know, 244 00:17:32,868 --> 00:17:36,220 We'd really like to talk to you back at our office." 245 00:17:36,447 --> 00:17:41,300 And he says, "okay," readily, almost cheerfully. 246 00:17:41,452 --> 00:17:43,877 And I remember investigator crowley saying, 247 00:17:43,971 --> 00:17:46,806 "don't you want to know what we're gonna talk to you about?" 248 00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:48,457 He goes, "oh, I know what you wanna talk about. 249 00:17:48,476 --> 00:17:51,569 You wanna talk about my dead wife and my dead son." 250 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,238 (dramatic music) 251 00:18:11,999 --> 00:18:13,833 (clock ticking) 252 00:18:13,985 --> 00:18:18,078 - The onset is simply to focus on the death of levi karlsen. 253 00:18:18,098 --> 00:18:21,599 Equally as important was the death of christina karlsen 254 00:18:21,826 --> 00:18:25,269 In 1991, 3,000 miles away in california. 255 00:18:26,681 --> 00:18:28,514 - I was very nervous 256 00:18:28,608 --> 00:18:32,944 Because so much was relying on this interview. 257 00:18:33,095 --> 00:18:34,946 And there was a lot at stake here. 258 00:18:36,449 --> 00:18:38,616 If he is the person we think he is, 259 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:42,620 Then other people are at risk. 260 00:18:44,866 --> 00:18:48,126 (tense, percussive music) 261 00:19:15,155 --> 00:19:16,946 (dramatic music) 262 00:19:21,995 --> 00:19:24,162 (soft bass music) 263 00:19:37,418 --> 00:19:39,235 - I'd had some consultation 264 00:19:39,253 --> 00:19:42,405 With the behavioral sciences unit in quantico, 265 00:19:42,423 --> 00:19:44,573 And they said, well, if he's a sociopath, 266 00:19:44,592 --> 00:19:46,909 You're probably not gonna get a full confession, 267 00:19:46,928 --> 00:19:50,429 But focus on documenting as many lies as you can. 268 00:19:50,581 --> 00:19:54,266 So, we were planning for the worst, but hoping for the best. 269 00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:55,860 (clock ticking) 270 00:20:55,496 --> 00:20:57,663 - We weren't at all surprised he was sticking his story. 271 00:20:57,757 --> 00:21:00,907 You know, a lie stuck to becomes the truth, right? 272 00:21:00,927 --> 00:21:03,152 If he doesn't falter off that, 273 00:21:03,170 --> 00:21:05,263 It makes it difficult for us to put the case together. 274 00:21:18,503 --> 00:21:21,170 - So, he's admitting that he made these admissions, 275 00:21:21,263 --> 00:21:23,188 But he's saying he did it for a reason. 276 00:21:23,283 --> 00:21:26,175 He did it to, you know, play this game with her. 277 00:21:26,193 --> 00:21:27,693 It's illogical what he's telling us 278 00:21:27,845 --> 00:21:28,935 Because we already knew 279 00:21:28,955 --> 00:21:30,788 That he was desperate to get her back. 280 00:21:31,015 --> 00:21:32,957 Well, the way you get your loved one back is not 281 00:21:33,108 --> 00:21:35,126 By telling him you killed someone. 282 00:21:55,815 --> 00:21:58,482 (dramatic music) 283 00:22:00,378 --> 00:22:01,560 - There's different interview techniques. 284 00:22:01,712 --> 00:22:03,395 One is rationalization. 285 00:22:03,548 --> 00:22:05,064 People wanna save face. 286 00:22:05,158 --> 00:22:10,644 They want to explain why they did the terrible thing 287 00:22:10,663 --> 00:22:11,996 That they're accused of doing. 288 00:23:11,874 --> 00:23:16,227 - A lot of interrogation techniques involve appealing 289 00:23:16,378 --> 00:23:20,398 To a person's sense of honor, honesty, your conscience, 290 00:23:20,549 --> 00:23:24,068 Their sense of empathy and guilt. 291 00:23:24,219 --> 00:23:26,737 The problem is if a person doesn't have a lot of that, 292 00:23:27,907 --> 00:23:29,314 It's gonna be difficult. 293 00:23:29,409 --> 00:23:31,033 (clock ticking) 294 00:24:06,428 --> 00:24:09,113 - So, at that point it's like, well, did he just lawyer up? 295 00:24:09,264 --> 00:24:11,740 I thought there was a good chance we were done. 296 00:24:18,774 --> 00:24:19,957 (dramatic music) 297 00:24:26,190 --> 00:24:28,924 (soft instrumental music) 298 00:24:36,976 --> 00:24:38,642 (clock ticking) 299 00:25:07,248 --> 00:25:09,840 I was very aware that the current case law says 300 00:25:09,992 --> 00:25:11,567 That when they ask for an attorney, 301 00:25:11,660 --> 00:25:13,402 It has to be a clear declaration. 302 00:25:13,420 --> 00:25:16,347 So, that was a deliberate way I phrased it to him. 303 00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:43,707 - I felt we were on solid ground on that once he indicated 304 00:25:43,934 --> 00:25:45,709 That he did wanna continue talking to us. 305 00:26:08,234 --> 00:26:10,401 My background was mostly child abuse cases 306 00:26:10,552 --> 00:26:11,735 And getting child molesters to talk 307 00:26:11,962 --> 00:26:13,404 About what they did was very difficult. 308 00:26:13,631 --> 00:26:15,573 So I was used to giving that sympathy, 309 00:26:15,724 --> 00:26:17,908 Rationalizing, minimizing. 310 00:26:52,336 --> 00:26:54,019 - We're trying to give karl a reason 311 00:26:54,171 --> 00:26:56,021 To tell us what truly happened. 312 00:26:56,115 --> 00:26:58,598 We realize that he didn't do this because of the methadone, 313 00:26:58,618 --> 00:27:00,843 But nobody wants to admit they did it 314 00:27:00,861 --> 00:27:02,694 Because they took out a life insurance policy 315 00:27:02,788 --> 00:27:03,954 On their son, either. 316 00:27:39,550 --> 00:27:42,826 - He quickly turns the conversation to himself, 317 00:27:43,053 --> 00:27:46,388 Which shows signs that he's narcissistic. 318 00:27:46,407 --> 00:27:48,240 We knew it was gonna probably be a marathon, 319 00:27:48,334 --> 00:27:49,391 Not a sprint. 320 00:27:49,484 --> 00:27:51,335 (dramatic music) (clock ticking) 321 00:28:36,774 --> 00:28:38,290 - He deflects a lot. 322 00:28:38,442 --> 00:28:39,958 You'll hit him up with something, 323 00:28:40,110 --> 00:28:42,219 And then he'll just kind of switch the topic. 324 00:28:44,056 --> 00:28:47,224 (dramatic music) 325 00:28:47,375 --> 00:28:49,284 We talked, nothing else is working. 326 00:28:49,303 --> 00:28:50,728 We can try some deception. 327 00:28:50,955 --> 00:28:53,789 Now, when you use deception in an interview, 328 00:28:53,807 --> 00:28:55,807 It's allowable to a point, 329 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:57,793 But where that point is, is in a gray area. 330 00:28:57,886 --> 00:28:59,403 So you're taking a risk when you do it. 331 00:29:01,890 --> 00:29:04,483 - Now, we already knew there was no concrete time of death 332 00:29:04,577 --> 00:29:05,968 On this case. 333 00:29:06,061 --> 00:29:07,819 - Tom came up with this concept, 334 00:29:07,972 --> 00:29:10,989 That through medical technology, 335 00:29:11,083 --> 00:29:13,733 We were able to tell exactly what time he died, 336 00:29:13,753 --> 00:29:16,253 And we knew what time karl had left. 337 00:29:59,298 --> 00:30:01,089 (somber music) 338 00:30:09,033 --> 00:30:11,475 (suspenseful music) 339 00:30:15,889 --> 00:30:17,773 (clock ticking) 340 00:30:53,093 --> 00:30:54,743 - I think he's not crying here. 341 00:30:54,761 --> 00:30:57,354 He's trying to put on a show for the camera 342 00:30:57,581 --> 00:30:59,690 And for all of us that he's emotional here, 343 00:30:59,841 --> 00:31:01,266 But the walls are closing in on him. 344 00:31:01,418 --> 00:31:03,694 That's what his body language is telling us. 345 00:31:40,733 --> 00:31:43,400 (dramatic music) 346 00:32:01,403 --> 00:32:03,736 When I come in, I play it off as naive. 347 00:32:03,756 --> 00:32:05,905 Like, I know nothing about this case. 348 00:32:05,925 --> 00:32:07,758 And I go in there with a goal 349 00:32:07,985 --> 00:32:10,076 That I want karl to repeat every detail 350 00:32:10,095 --> 00:32:12,763 Of the 1991 death of his wife. 351 00:32:25,335 --> 00:32:27,927 - It's not so much about getting a confession. 352 00:32:27,947 --> 00:32:31,782 It's about getting the inconsistencies. 353 00:32:31,933 --> 00:32:34,451 (dramatic music) 354 00:32:59,536 --> 00:33:01,386 The reason why I had karl draw out the picture 355 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,814 Of the home is, it's gonna contradict things 356 00:33:04,041 --> 00:33:07,275 That he said to the investigators in 1991. 357 00:33:16,829 --> 00:33:18,737 - But we knew that it was plenty big enough 358 00:33:18,889 --> 00:33:20,388 For an adult to go through. 359 00:33:20,482 --> 00:33:22,791 So why is he lying about that? 360 00:34:01,765 --> 00:34:03,856 - Karl karlsen can't keep track of the lies. 361 00:34:03,876 --> 00:34:06,043 He can't remember all the lies he's told. 362 00:34:33,647 --> 00:34:35,313 Karl's a trained fireman. 363 00:34:35,407 --> 00:34:38,724 He has access to a pickaxe, a truckload of tools. 364 00:34:38,744 --> 00:34:41,486 He makes no attempt to pop this plywood off 365 00:34:41,580 --> 00:34:42,971 And get his wife out. 366 00:34:42,989 --> 00:34:46,083 He sits in the vehicle with his children, 367 00:34:46,310 --> 00:34:48,251 Listening to the screams of their mother. 368 00:34:49,922 --> 00:34:52,589 (dramatic music) 369 00:35:03,677 --> 00:35:06,103 (clock ticking) 370 00:35:31,446 --> 00:35:34,689 This is about bringing the facts of the case to light. 371 00:35:34,782 --> 00:35:36,466 Also, we know that this is recorded 372 00:35:36,618 --> 00:35:38,802 And we want the jury to see this. 373 00:35:55,395 --> 00:35:56,820 - Nonverbals are striking. 374 00:35:56,971 --> 00:35:59,714 I mean, when you did that, you could see his demeanor, 375 00:35:59,807 --> 00:36:01,974 His head's hanging almost in shame. 376 00:36:01,994 --> 00:36:05,069 Either that or feeling terrible because he's thinking, 377 00:36:05,222 --> 00:36:06,663 "uh oh, I might be caught here." 378 00:36:33,525 --> 00:36:35,150 (ominous music) 379 00:36:43,518 --> 00:36:45,535 (suspenseful music) 380 00:36:58,717 --> 00:37:00,884 (clock ticking) 381 00:37:41,985 --> 00:37:44,986 - John's connection with karl is almost 382 00:37:45,079 --> 00:37:48,581 Like a father-son relationship 383 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,826 That started early on into this interview. 384 00:37:51,845 --> 00:37:54,012 We know that we have our best opportunity 385 00:37:54,106 --> 00:37:56,606 To get to the truth by leaving john in that room alone. 386 00:38:31,643 --> 00:38:33,217 I could tell, 387 00:38:33,370 --> 00:38:36,220 He's ready to tell me something really big here, 388 00:38:36,373 --> 00:38:39,482 And gave him all the encouragement I could. 389 00:38:55,316 --> 00:38:57,292 (tense music) 390 00:39:12,017 --> 00:39:14,684 (dramatic music) 391 00:39:18,190 --> 00:39:20,523 (karl crying) 392 00:39:41,046 --> 00:39:43,454 - He comes out with his final version 393 00:39:43,607 --> 00:39:47,108 That he caused the truck to fall on his son, 394 00:39:48,461 --> 00:39:51,888 And then basically walked out and left him dying on the floor. 395 00:40:04,569 --> 00:40:07,311 I was disappointed we didn't get an admission 396 00:40:07,406 --> 00:40:10,573 On the reason he took out the insurance policy. 397 00:40:10,725 --> 00:40:12,075 I kind of wanted to just keep going, 398 00:40:12,302 --> 00:40:14,652 But I knew that it was not the right thing to do. 399 00:40:14,804 --> 00:40:17,396 So at that point, we decided that we'd call it 400 00:40:17,416 --> 00:40:20,141 And put an end to it. 401 00:40:20,234 --> 00:40:21,643 - There is never gonna be justice, 402 00:40:21,661 --> 00:40:24,087 But we had to bring some type of closure 403 00:40:24,238 --> 00:40:27,573 To the family who had been tormented for so many years 404 00:40:27,592 --> 00:40:30,760 And so many times by this evil monster. 405 00:40:36,101 --> 00:40:38,601 (dramatic music) 406 00:40:46,761 --> 00:40:50,930 - [jeff] karl karlsen is a sociopath, pathetic human being. 407 00:40:50,949 --> 00:40:52,449 And he was a budding serial killer. 408 00:40:54,286 --> 00:40:56,527 I think he derived a high for murder. 409 00:40:56,621 --> 00:40:58,413 I think he enjoyed it. 410 00:41:04,463 --> 00:41:06,963 (clock ticking) 411 00:41:11,470 --> 00:41:14,286 - Karl karlsen will spend 15 years to life in prison 412 00:41:14,380 --> 00:41:16,288 For murdering his own son. 413 00:41:16,308 --> 00:41:17,699 Well, today karlsen's brother said 414 00:41:17,717 --> 00:41:19,050 While he's happy to have closure, 415 00:41:19,202 --> 00:41:21,961 There is still one thing that bothers him. 416 00:41:21,980 --> 00:41:24,147 - I think the most troubling part for me personally, 417 00:41:24,374 --> 00:41:25,723 Not speaking for the rest of the family, 418 00:41:25,817 --> 00:41:30,302 Is he showed no remorse today, and that bothers me. 419 00:41:30,322 --> 00:41:31,654 The smirks, the grins, 420 00:41:31,806 --> 00:41:35,066 It's like it was a game, 421 00:41:35,218 --> 00:41:37,994 And it wasn't a game, it was people's lives. 422 00:41:39,906 --> 00:41:43,166 (soft instrumental music) 423 00:41:56,256 --> 00:41:58,163 - This wasn't a job, this case. 424 00:41:58,258 --> 00:41:59,665 This was about levi. 425 00:41:59,759 --> 00:42:01,409 This was about christina. 426 00:42:01,427 --> 00:42:03,077 It was about all the people 427 00:42:03,096 --> 00:42:05,522 That got their lives destroyed by karl karlsen. 428 00:42:07,341 --> 00:42:11,677 The scary part was he took out life insurance policies 429 00:42:11,771 --> 00:42:13,363 On his two granddaughters. 430 00:42:15,182 --> 00:42:16,699 - It's insane to even think 431 00:42:16,926 --> 00:42:18,926 That you could take out a policy like that 432 00:42:18,945 --> 00:42:22,187 And not inform the mother, but he did it. 433 00:42:22,207 --> 00:42:24,782 And I have no doubt they were next. 434 00:42:24,876 --> 00:42:27,544 (dramatic music) 435 00:42:30,607 --> 00:42:32,957 - When I think of both christina and levi, 436 00:42:33,109 --> 00:42:36,294 I think of people who were never fully able 437 00:42:36,446 --> 00:42:38,446 To reach their potential, 438 00:42:38,464 --> 00:42:40,615 Not just because their lives were cut short, 439 00:42:40,633 --> 00:42:43,375 But because they lived with karl to begin with. 440 00:42:43,395 --> 00:42:46,062 I just wish they could have gotten away 441 00:42:46,213 --> 00:42:47,564 And lived their lives. 442 00:42:50,569 --> 00:42:52,569 - Sometime after the conviction, 443 00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:55,738 Levi's ex-wife came to our office with her two daughters 444 00:42:57,409 --> 00:42:59,409 And she said, "I want them to meet 445 00:42:59,636 --> 00:43:01,411 The officers that saved their lives." 446 00:43:03,064 --> 00:43:04,414 I'll always remember that. 447 00:43:04,565 --> 00:43:07,041 (somber music)