Steve Kilbey.
I'm great.
Jess, how are you? I'm good. I'm great.
You grew up when the moon landings were actually happening.
Yeah, yeah. What was that like?
Yeah, yeah. Extraordinary. It was 1969.
ARMSTRONG: (OVER TV) Extraordinary. It was 1969.
ARMSTRONG: (OVER TV) The Eagle has landed.
And I remember it was during a maths class,
And I remember it was and we had a little TV up there,
and we watched them walk on the moon.
and we watched them That's one small step for man,
one giant leap for mankind.
It was strange, we all just sat there and watched it and went,
"Oh, yeah, we've landed on the moon."
And then he just went on with the day.
Yeah. Isn't that bizarre?
And then back out in the playground,
having your milk at 11:00 and trying to chat up a girl.
having your milk at 11:00 (LAUGHS)
It was a very different world.
WOMAN: Lift-off for a group It was a very different world.
WOMAN: Lift-off for a group of six women...
Seeing as we are going out in reality...
Seeing as we are MAN: Back to the moon and beyond.
..how do we make sure that we do that well?
..how do we make sure We won't.
Look, I know what you're thinking -
it looks like I'm prepping for zero gravity.
But no, I'm not leaving Earth, I'm making a sculpture.
And I built this piece to celebrate one of Earth's smallest superheroes -
the bee. And I built this piece to celebrate one of Earth's smallest superheroes -
the bee.
The inspiration was helping people to stay connected
to their own love for the environment.
Because I've always believed that art can speak to the urgent things -
Because I've always believed that climate, care, connection.
And I've spent most of my time
focused on the space beneath the clouds.
On the series Star Trek: Strange New Worlds,
she stars as Nurse Chapel.
Her body's rejecting the serum.
That is until I joined the cast of Her body's rejecting the serum.
That is until I joined the cast of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds,
because suddenly then I was surrounded by scientists,
because suddenly then I was futurists, thinkers,
people who opened my mind to what's happening up there.
I can't wait for us to hear the sonic boom.
Oh, the moon!
You guys, I will have to tell you, look at the moon.
Yep, we are entering a new era of space exploration.
Yep, we are entering a new ALL: Taking Up Space!
(ALL CHEER)
I'm not gonna lie, it's a bit surreal and also a little terrifying. (ALL CHEER)
I'm not gonna lie, it's a bit surreal and also a little terrifying.
MAN: This is not right. Something happened.
WOMAN: We have lost the ship.
MAN: We appear to have had a launch vehicle failure.
But most of all, it's got me thinking.
How many resources went into putting these women into space? But most of all, it's got me thinking.
How many resources went into putting these women into space?
With our track record here on Earth:
And can art help guide the way?
I've heard you've got five albums coming out.
Yeah. Not slowing down at all?
I can't. I'm wired into this thing 24 hours a day. Yeah. Not slowing down at all?
I can't. I'm wired into this thing 24 hours a day.
Why are we so obsessed with space, anyway?
Why are we so obsessed with space, It's a planet in a spiritual sky.
To find out, I've come to chat with
one of Australia's greatest songwriters, Steve Kilbey.
# You won't get some things outta my time
# I got no reservations
# You won't get something out of mind... # # I got no reservations
# You won't get something out of mind... #
He's world renowned as leader of the band The Church
and co-writer of their smash hit Under The Milky Way...
# Under the Milky Way tonight... #
..with a musical imagination
that's taken listeners to other times and other worlds.
# Nothing moved as it slept in space... #
I'm keen to hear why Steve thinks space has inspired so many artists.
Space and sci-fi has been something that is fairly new to me,
and it seems that you share that interest,
but maybe it goes back a little further.
All the way, yeah. Yeah?
All the way, yeah. I remember when I was 18,
suddenly this genre of space rock just came out of nowhere.
suddenly this genre of space rock (HEAVY ROCK MUSIC PLAYS)
It was Hawkwind and Pink Floyd, and then Ziggy Stardust.
It was Hawkwind and Pink Floyd, (HEAVY ROCK MUSIC CONTINUES)
For the first time ever, musicians were exploring
not just the idea of space, but the feeling of space.
not just the idea of space, That really got me in.
And this band Hawkwind, have you ever listened to them?
I have had a little listen to them. Yeah, they're awesome.
Yeah. So cool.
# I Yeah. So cool.
# I
# I just took a ride
# In a silver machine... #
Well, they were the first band I ever heard
who were trying to give you the feeling
who were trying to give you of what space travel might be like.
And it sort of had this,
for want of a better word, druggie feeling.
The stars and the comets are all translated
The stars and the comets as synthesisers and oscillators.
(SPACE-AGE SYNTHESISER SOUNDS)
It's like... (MIMICS SYNTHESISER)
(SYNTHESISER CONTINUES)
..whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo.
(HEAVY ROCK GUITAR SOLO PLAYS)
(CHEERING, APPLAUSE)
So, exploring space imaginatively for you
So, exploring space imaginatively is more about the escapism of it?
Yes. is more about the escapism of it?
Yes. Yeah.
In music and art, I'm not really interested in reality,
I'm interested in this poetic aspect of space.
And when you're immersed in this weird,
spiritual, magical world,
that's music that gives you ample opportunities for weirdness.
Yeah. Because space is weird.
Yeah. Different.
So, that's where I go back
to find the things I want to give out to the audience.
Yeah. This other world.
Yeah. Yeah.
# Wish I knew what you were looking for... #
And you can definitely feel that expansive, otherworldly quality
in the Church's biggest song, Under The Milky Way.
So, what do you think about the song
is so accessible, universally connective?
is so accessible, I think it's ambiguous,
and I think ambiguity is a really interesting thing,
and it's one of the things I kind of specialise in.
and it's one of the things # And it's something quite... #
You've got this line of ambiguity.
If you go too far and it's too specific,
you're going to block a lot of people out.
They're going to go, "That can't be me."
But if you can fall right on the line and people love it.
But if you can fall right on Under The Milky Way is that.
Anybody can inhabit that song.
I happen to think that because it's under the stars
I happen to think that that people can look up and realise
that we're all seeing the same thing,
and so it's unifying in a way. There you go.
It's really beautiful. No-one's ever said that before.
Really?! No.
Really?! That's very surprising to me.
No, looking up, the cosmos reduces us all to one.
Yeah, exactly.
Looking up at the stars is kind of an equaliser.
No matter who we are, we're all staring up at the same sky.
And maybe that shared perspective is exactly
what we need as we head back into space.
You write your own story about yourself.
At the start of this episode, I asked Steve...
How do we make sure that we do that well?
How do we make sure We won't.
And let's just say he didn't sugar coat it.
And let's just say We will go to other planets,
we will pollute them and burn them out.
And if there are people there, we will enslave them and kill them
and try and make them believe in Jesus.
And that sort of seems to be what humanity does.
Which brings me to the real question.
Do you think that the art that we make
can have an impact on how things play out?
can have an impact on Yes, I do.
You can get a glimpse of the world we could have through art.
Now, that's something I can work with.
Because, sure, art reflects the world we live in,
but I'm interested in how it can offer an alternative.
Right now, it's easy to feel like the future
is being built for the few, not the many.
I want to thank every Amazon employee
and every Amazon customer,
because you guys paid for all this.
And while billionaires turn space into their next big business...
..down here on Earth, one artist is imagining something else entirely.
Hello?
Hey. Hello. Hello?
Hey. Hello.
How are you going? Serwah, what's up?
We out here. This is so cool.
We out here. Thank you.
Serwah Attafuah's studio feels like Thank you.
Serwah Attafuah's studio feels like stepping into a time portal.
Serwah Attafuah's studio feels like Whoa, that's cool.
On one side, piles of vintage tech.
So, these are bits and pieces On one side, piles of vintage tech.
So, these are bits and pieces of e-waste and, like, scrap tech.
So, these are bits and pieces Epic.
On the other...
This monitor is crazy.
..this sleek, high-powered workstation
with surreal new worlds in progress.
This is my spaceship.
It's where she builds her digital dreamscapes.
Not as a visitor, but as the main character.
Growing up, I was obsessed with, like, avatar-based games...
..but I felt like I could never totally be myself
..but I felt like I could or do what I wanted.
So, I just started making my own little metaverses,
and trying to create visions of our future
where I could actually see myself. and trying to create visions of our future
where I could actually see myself.
Serwah's futures aren't billionaires' playgrounds,
Serwah's futures aren't that's for sure.
They're a lush, layered that's for sure.
They're a lush, layered black perspective
on what our journey to space could look like. They're a lush, layered black perspective
on what our journey to space could look like.
on what our journey to Displayed across five screens,
this one features female warriors
rising from burning slave castles and shipwrecked colonial vessels.
In Serwah's words,
"a futuristic realm of resilience and reclamation".
Like, I'm noticing that you have, like,
Like, I'm noticing a real interest in vintage future.
Yes. Like, old imaginings of the future.
Mm-hm. Mm-hm.
You can't look to the future without looking to the past.
You can't look to the future I think that's where we mess it up,
is dreaming up futures that have nothing to do with our past.
So, I think that's why I'm really into
those, like, older depictions of the future,
because they give us an indication of what we've wanted,
what our dreams were, why we want to make these things.
Yeah. I guess, yeah.
And Serwah's work is part of a tradition
that digs deep into those dreams.
It's called Afrofuturism,
a reimagining of the future through a black cultural lens.
It first emerged during the civil rights movement of the '60s,
partly in response to a very white space program.
We choose to go to the moon in this decade
We choose to go to the moon and do the other things...
From the cosmic jazz of Sun Ra
to the science fiction of Octavia Butler,
to Janelle Monae and Black Panther,
it's about depicting a future where African history,
culture, mythology and tradition thrive.
Your work has been described as Afrofuturistic quite a bit.
How do you feel about being included in that tradition of art-making,
like, that world?
It feels great.
Like, the more I can sort of create visions like that,
that can hopefully inspire, that really means a lot to me.
For me, I make my artwork not really for the people of today,
I make it for the people of the future.
I make it for I make it for my future ancestors.
Sort of like the opposite of an elder.
Like, as insane as it sounds, I feel like I'm trying
to learn from people that aren't here yet.
Instead of... That's so cool.
You know, like, learn from my elders,
but I also try and think about my great-great-grandchild,
trying to make a world that she would want to live in.
I love Serwah's works. She calls them heavenly dystopias.
They're beautiful, bold,
and they make space feel like it belongs to all of us,
not just the richest, the fastest, or the first.
They're not just visions of survival,
they're visions of joy, of care, of possibility.
But I know what you might be thinking.
Can art really help shape the future?
Can art really help Like, really?
MAN: I controlled myself and didn't wear my Star Trek uniform.
Oh, that would have been so good! I would have loved that.
It's in the closet. You tell me.
(LAUGHS)
I'm nowhere near as much of a sci-fi fan as you.
Probably why you had friends in high school.
Probably why you had friends (LAUGHS)
WOMAN: Whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo! (LAUGHS)
WOMAN: Whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo!
We have Mike Gold.
Through Star Trek, I've met some amazing people
working in the space industry, and Mike Gold is one of them.
He is one of the biggest Star Trek fans around in the industry.
He's not just a sci-fi fan,
Mike spent his career turning science fiction into science fact,
Mike spent his career turning from NASA to Redwire,
a company building tech from NASA to Redwire,
a company building tech for life beyond Earth.
a company building tech And he's got me wondering,
can a TV show really shape what we build in space?
You are, without a doubt,
the biggest Star Trek fan that I've ever met.
Did it influence you to embark on the career path that you've taken?
Absolutely.
My life wouldn't be what it is without Star Trek. Absolutely.
My life wouldn't be what it is without Star Trek.
Not just the inspiration and awe and wonder of space,
but the optimistic society that Star Trek portrayed.
While I may be the biggest Star Trek fan you know,
if you go to NASA headquarters, I wouldn't be alone.
That so many of us at NASA, so many of us in the private sector,
were inspired by Star Trek.
Could you, like, give us some insight into some ways
Could you, like, give us that Star Trek has influenced NASA
and Redwire's approach to space exploration?
Absolutely.
And you'll have to stop me,
because we could do a show just on this question alone.
It was because of the diversity of Star Trek,
and particularly the work of Nichelle Nichols,
who played Lieutenant Uhura in the original series -
she spent, I think, the better part of six months
under contract from NASA, crisscrossing the country
to find female and African-American astronauts, minority astronauts.
And those became the first female and minority astronaut candidates
And those became the first female in the history of NASA.
This is your NASA.
The name of the first space shuttle was originally, I believe,
The name of the first space shuttle going to be Constellation,
and it was because of Star Trek fans writing in and complaining
that they made the name of the first space shuttle Enterprise.
At Redwire, we're building a system
that can take the dirt from the moon and turn it into roads,
that can take the dirt from the moon turn it into housing,
and that very much is modelled off of
the Star Trek Replicator technology.
They're all fantastic examples
of Star Trek influencing our future in space.
But there's another one, a big one,
But there's another one, that Mike himself helped bring about.
If you had 15 seconds that Mike himself helped bring about.
If you had 15 seconds in an elevator to tell me
what the Artemis Accords are, what would you say?
The Artemis Accords are a global commitment
The Artemis Accords are by now 53 nations
to explore space in a peaceful, safe,
sustainable and transparent fashion.
I would say they're the vehicle
to achieve the dream that is Star Trek.
to achieve the dream Wow. And what was your part in it?
Well, as you might note from the name,
I named the Artemis Accords.
(LAUGHS) Just that little thing. Yeah.
I had to get my Star Trek reference in.
You can't really get more direct than that, can you? (LAUGHS)
You can't really get more direct Whoa. Can we just take a moment?
That's a remarkable example of our journey into space
being shaped by art and storytelling.
It's such a magic, symbiotic kind of relationship, isn't it,
between art and reality?
It's very cool. Yes.
I consider you and your colleagues part of the space program,
because you play a role that is as important
as any engineer, as any rocket science.
as any engineer, Whoo!
Whoa. Talking to Mike, it really hits me.
Art doesn't just imagine space,
sometimes it helps us actually get there.
A TV show became a blueprint, a story turned into a strategy.
But while 20th-century sci-fi may have helped
launch us toward the stars,
the world's oldest continuous culture has had a deep relationship
the world's oldest continuous with space for millennia.
To explore those stories, art historian Mary McGillivray
is teaming up with astrophysicist
and proud Wiradjuri woman Dr Kirsten Banks.
So this is an early 18th-century star atlas.
And Orion's belt, I think, is one of the most well-known constellations.
Yes. In Wiradjuri we actually see the stars of Orion
as the same sort of pattern representing a human or a man.
For us, though, we see it as the Creator spirit Baiame.
And in one of the stories,
he's running along and chasing an emu called Dinewan.
And he trips on a log...
..and falls flat on his face.
And that is illustrated in how the stars move.
When Orion sets in the sky, from Australia's perspective,
When Orion sets in the sky, he sets headfirst.
So, Baiame is... Falling over the log.
Yeah, headfirst into the ground. That's fantastic.
So, it illustrates the story quite well.
I love it.
In Wiradjuri culture, the Southern Cross isn't a cross.
We actually see it as Yarran, which is a tree.
But the two stars next to the cross, the Southern Pointers,
we call them Mouyi Mouyi, which represent two cockatoos.
And what's going on is that Yarran is their home,
And what's going on is the tree is their home.
And they're following their home in the sky.
And, again, it's illustrated in how the sky moves
because of the rotation of the Earth.
Mouyi Mouyi are always following their home in the sky.
What's different about the dark emu compared to
the constellations we've looked at here
is that the patterns we look for with the dark emu
are the negative spaces,
the patches of gas and dust that naturally block
the light from more distant stars in the Milky Way galaxy.
And I can see it here.
So, underneath the Southern Cross, And I can see it here.
So, underneath the Southern Cross, you see this little patch here?
It's kind of like the head and the beak of the emu.
It's kind of like the head Yeah, yeah.
And then if you continue along this way
towards the centre of the Milky Way, that's kind of, like, the neck.
And then the... I can see it!
..bulge of the Milky Way is the body.
It's a very kind of long, lean emu.
Oh, it's huge. It's incredible.
Once you see this constellation, you can't unsee it. It is amazing.
And in Wiradjuri, we call him Gugurmin.
It's also really useful in Wiradjuri culture.
Its position in the night sky indicates
when is the right time to go looking for emu eggs.
Fantastic.
Our fascination with the night sky has inspired incredible stories
and exploration.
But with the commercialisation of space travel,
how do we protect these new frontiers?
how do we protect This year, even the moon was listed
as a threatened cultural heritage site.
Amos. Jess, hi.
Amos. Hey. I'm Jess. Nice to meet you.
This is Amos Gebhardt,
an award-winning artist and cinematographer. This is Amos Gebhardt,
an award-winning artist and cinematographer.
And I've come to visit an installation
that treats the moon not as a place to conquer, but as a collaborator.
And this is Alexis.
These works, like this award-winning portrait And this is Alexis.
These works, like this award-winning portrait
of Waanyi writer Alexis Wright,
were all created using the moon as the only light source.
It's not the easiest thing to work with with film,
but it's got this exquisite potential.
Goodness gracious. It's beautiful.
They're not just beautiful, they're quietly powerful.
There's a deep intimacy to them.
I'm left with this visceral feeling of stillness.
(SIGHS) I don't know, when I stand in this room,
like, when we walked in, I felt, like, a release.
like, when we walked in, Yeah, yeah.
You know, like, there was just, like, relaxation into the space.
Yeah. Yeah.
There's something about being under the moonlight together,
in the darkness and the quietness of the nervous system.
in the darkness and And to be there with a camera,
to kind of feel into what might be able
to be photographed, because you can't see everything.
There are kind of mysteries that are hovering
There are kind of mysteries on the edges of your vision.
There was an almost childlike awe that kept coming out.
This body of work is called Mangata,
a word that I haven't heard before but won't be forgetting in a hurry.
a word that I haven't heard before Mangata is a Swedish word
that translates literally to "moon road".
It signifies that extraordinary image
that the moon creates when it's hanging over a body of water.
that the moon creates when it's That kind of pathway towards itself
speaks to this idea of a pathway into the unknown.
And the subjects of Amos's portraits are all on that pathway.
They're visionaries, imagining liberated collective futures.
Why do you think the moon is such a potent symbol for change?
I think one of the things that really struck me
was this idea of renewal,
where we see this celestial companion constantly shrinking
and expanding, and reminding us of change.
How do you feel about human expansion into space?
Um, it strikes me as a pathology, actually.
Um, in Aileen Moreton-Robinson's interview, actually,
her grandparents raised her on Quandamooka Country, Um, in Aileen Moreton-Robinson's interview, actually,
her grandparents raised her on Quandamooka Country,
and, um, she came home one day, as a little kid,
when man landed on the moon.
She was very excited to her grandfather,
and he was just devastated.
Because he knew what it meant,
he knew that the implications of conquest,
to expand into space in that way,
and that the arrogance to expand into space in that way,
and that the arrogance and the audacity.
and that the arrogance Yeah, I sit on that fence, I think.
Yeah.
I think if you can't experience awe from the place that we're born into
I think if you can't experience awe and onto, in balance with the Earth,
then I think there's and onto, in balance with the Earth,
then I think there's something out of whack.
then I think there's Mm-hm. Mm.
Amos's words are so valid.
A reminder that our dreams of space travel
are often intertwined with the language of colonialism and empire.
MAN: Because that challenge is one that we intend to win.
Those connections can be hard to shake.
But what if we had a stronger relationship with the stars
But what if we had a stronger from here on Earth?
How would that change the way we think about space?
Hi. Hi, Jess.
Hey, Shireen. Nice to meet you. Come in.
Nice to meet you, too. How are you doing?
Great. Is it always this tidy, or did...
Well, I mean, it's pretty messy over there, but...
Well, I mean, it's pretty messy Come on, it's beautiful in here.
It feels like a display home. Come on, it's beautiful in here.
It feels like a display home. Oh, no. (LAUGHS)
Shireen Taweel is an artist whose connection to the stars
has taken her on an extraordinary journey
and has forged a link between her Lebanese-Australian heritage
and a science-fiction vision of the future.
So, in the studio, I've been investigating
So, in the studio, celestial navigation technologies.
And, really, it comes back to the core materiality of copper
And, really, it comes back to and its connection to science
and astronomy and practice of time, and its cultural connections.
The navigation devices I've been delving into
The navigation devices are from the Arabic sciences,
and they're made also from precious metals,
and they're made also like copper and brass and silver.
Shireen hand-crafted these three devices
used for navigating by the stars -
a quadrant, an astrolabe, and a compass.
My tools are literally the same as the astronomers' tools
you would have found at an observatory
you would have found up until, like, the last century.
Wow. Yeah.
And, so, this is a rete, which is the front face of an astrolabe.
But what's so beautiful about an astrolabe
is, like, you're holding the universe in the palm of your hands.
And, so, within a device of an astrolabe,
And, so, within a device of which is kind of like a computer,
each point you would find which is kind of like a computer,
each point you would find on the device
is actually pointing to a specific star, yeah.
Wow. Yeah.
There's something so beautiful about how tactile and elemental it is,
and you're also exploring ideas of, like...
Yeah. ..things that are so far beyond.
Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
And this materiality has had such a play in astronomy.
Last year, Shireen went on a pilgrimage,
a Hajj, following a line towards Mecca
across Australia and New Zealand for over 5,000 nautical miles.
And she used those handmade instruments
and ancient navigation techniques
to plot a course using the stars and ancient navigation techniques
to plot a course using the stars in the night sky.
It was such an extraordinary experience,
constantly being connected to the night sky
and just literally, like, eyeballing the star you're relating to.
It must be an incredible feeling to be
so aware of your global location in such a tactile way.
so aware of your global location Oh, absolutely.
Like, you're so connected to the whole of Earth at any time.
Shireen's journey was part of an artwork called
Shireen's journey was part of Pilgrimage Of A Hajjanaut,
taking age-old practices of faith and migration
and imagining what they would look like on a journey into space.
Within, like, the Arab region, for millennia,
Within, like, the Arab region, we've been extraordinary travellers.
We know the iconic pilgrim for Hajj wears, like, the white garments.
I was wanting to fold in the space garments,
but also it, like, unzips and becomes a sacred space for prayer.
Did you get any, like, profound insights from your process?
Well, it's definitely an experience I'm still reflecting on.
Myself, being Lebanese Australian,
where my parents migrated here, and having grown up here,
we've always had to think of the future
and work towards that sense of kind of survival
and establishing a sense of place and belonging.
and establishing a sense of place So, it's been really beautiful
to think about future practices
that are also connected to off-Earth experiences of the sacred.
If we are to journey out into space as a species,
If we are to journey out how do we not mess it up?
There needs to be far more diverse voices in the activity of space,
because we're all connected to the night sky
and we all come from paths that have involved
and we all come from paths really beautiful dialogues
and contributions to our understanding of astronomy.
and contributions Mm-hm.
It's incredible how Shireen's deep research into the ancient past
brings us to the moment we're in right now,
standing on the threshold of the universe.
Why is it important for us to go into space
with a collective approach, as opposed to a competitive one?
Space is hard. Really hard.
Quote of the day.
Everything in space wants to kill you,
Everything in space from the vacuum to radiation.
It's extremely dangerous, and that requires innovation.
And diversity is the fuel for innovation.
The more diverse a group is, the more likely it is to be creative
and come up with solutions that we never thought of before.
And that's why diversity isn't just the right thing to do,
it's mission critical to achieve the dreams that we have in space.
I set out on this journey to see if there was a way
we could explore space without messing it up.
we could explore space And like everything we humans do,
it's complicated with no easy answers.
But I do think art offers a way to keep our eyes open
But I do think art offers a way and steer us in the right direction.
And if our vision of the future can make room for more voices,
then our next giant leap into the unknown And if our vision of the future can make room for more voices,
then our next giant leap into the unknown
could land us somewhere truly incredible.