1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,120 (POWERFUL CHORAL MUSIC) 2 00:00:08,040 --> 00:00:11,160 When you join a sacred image to excrement, 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:15,240 everybody understands that that is taken to be insulting. 4 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:15,480 everybody understands that Art often provokes, 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:17,240 Art often provokes, 6 00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:17,480 depending on how you feel about what you're looking at. Art often provokes, 7 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,200 depending on how you feel about what you're looking at. 8 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:20,480 depending on how you feel about what you're looking at. It says more about you than about me. 9 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:22,440 It says more about you than about me. 10 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:33,800 Hi, I'm Brook Andrew. 11 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,480 I hail from Wiradjuri and Ngunnawal peoples 12 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:39,680 who have inspired and nurtured me on my life journey. 13 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:39,960 who have inspired and nurtured me on my life journey. I'm an artist and have had the honour of exhibiting my work, 14 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,760 I'm an artist and have had the honour of exhibiting my work, 15 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,440 collaborating with Indigenous and other communities 16 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:45,680 collaborating with Indigenous and curating on a global stage, 17 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:47,320 and curating on a global stage, 18 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,840 from Colombia, France, Japan to the Sharjah and Sydney Biennales. 19 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,320 As an artist, I dig deep to reflect on how we exist 20 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,440 in the world and confront painful truths. 21 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:01,960 This journey often leads into sensitive 22 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,560 and sometimes challenging places of taboo. 23 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,080 When I was a younger artist in the '90s, 24 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:11,320 When I was a younger artist I was very passionate about 25 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:13,720 I was very passionate about 26 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,560 the visibility of us, you know, about Indigenous culture. 27 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,320 And so I made a work called Sexy and Dangerous. 28 00:01:22,320 --> 00:01:25,280 And then at one point it became almost taboo, 29 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,400 like, you know, do I have a right to show this photo or not? 30 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,520 I currently don't use ethnographic imagery any more in my work. 31 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:33,760 I currently don't use ethnographic I feel that I've dealt with this. 32 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:35,080 I feel that I've dealt with this. 33 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:36,480 Throughout my work, 34 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,960 I've witnessed how subjects deemed taboo 35 00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:43,720 can trigger intense emotions that extend far beyond the world of art. 36 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,480 Over like a 30-year span of someone's career, 37 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:53,000 histories change or politics and religion changes or society changes. 38 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:54,480 And so there's always a context around taboo. 39 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,800 And I think one of the most challenging things about 40 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,920 an artist that works from a very personal viewpoint 41 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:01,160 an artist that works of wanting to know more 42 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,400 of wanting to know more 43 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,880 is that once you expose yourself publicly, 44 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,800 that thing has its own life and you cannot be in charge of it. 45 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:15,120 I've been long aware of the nature and power of taboo ideas, 46 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:20,040 so much so that, in 2012, I curated an exhibition called Taboo 47 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,600 at the Museum of Contemporary Art Australia. 48 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,160 When we were doing the catalogue, 49 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,960 there's a very early British watercolour 50 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,840 that showed a golliwog getting married to a, you know, 51 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,880 a pretty white girl with curls and she's crying and crying. 52 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,120 Yet I couldn't put it on the front cover 53 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,360 without it being concealed somehow. 54 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,160 So we concealed it with a plastic wrapping. 55 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:50,400 So we concealed it But you can take the cover off. 56 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:51,920 But you can take the cover off. 57 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:53,720 So there's this thing where, 58 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:55,360 you know, if you want to, 59 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,400 you can reveal it yourself or not reveal it yourself. 60 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,400 There's still so much I want to understand 61 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,800 about how we interpret and live taboos. 62 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:04,040 about how we interpret How do we talk to each other 63 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:05,400 How do we talk to each other 64 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:05,640 about sensitive subjects How do we talk to each other 65 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:08,560 about sensitive subjects without drawing battle lines? 66 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:08,800 about sensitive subjects Or is this always inevitable? 67 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,200 Or is this always inevitable? 68 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,680 And how can artists protect themselves 69 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,080 and each other in a polarised world, 70 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,560 where their livelihoods are under threat 71 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,880 from moral crusades or just basic differences? 72 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,560 I want to know who is in charge of taboo, 73 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,600 because I think that often we're just making our work. 74 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,720 All of a sudden we're placed in something 75 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:31,960 All of a sudden and all the spotlight is on us, 76 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:33,880 and all the spotlight is on us, 77 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:34,120 and we think, "Whoa, hang on and all the spotlight is on us, 78 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,880 and we think, "Whoa, hang on a minute. How did I get here?" 79 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:39,120 I want to start my journey 80 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,600 by talking to an artist who found themselves 81 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,600 in the eye of a taboo storm, 82 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:43,840 and who stands their own ground in the eye of a taboo storm, 83 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,400 and who stands their own ground of this tale. 84 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,960 In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. 85 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:51,200 In the name of the Father, and Amen. 86 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:52,040 Amen. 87 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,280 It's blasphemous. It's insulting. 88 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,760 Two staff have already been injured in this incident. 89 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,080 I'm not going to put their lives at risk. 90 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,480 Piss Christ is a monumental and provocative photograph 91 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:04,720 Piss Christ is a monumental of Jesus on the crucifix 92 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:06,480 of Jesus on the crucifix 93 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:08,480 immersed in the artist's own urine. 94 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,280 Though the work was already a decade old, 95 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,160 Cardinal George Pell sought to ban it from Australian audiences, 96 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,000 denouncing the artist as blasphemous. 97 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:18,240 denouncing the artist His injunction failed, 98 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:19,400 His injunction failed, 99 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:19,640 but the surrounding media storm His injunction failed, 100 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,280 but the surrounding media storm incited two teenagers 101 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:22,520 but the surrounding media storm to vandalise the piece with a hammer. 102 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,400 to vandalise the piece with a hammer. 103 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,040 After three days of escalating threats 104 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,400 and intimidation from some Christian groups, 105 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,400 the National Gallery of Victoria ultimately capitulated 106 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:33,640 the National Gallery of Victoria and closed the exhibition. 107 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:35,960 and closed the exhibition. 108 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,800 For me, what the children did was foolish, 109 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:44,080 but what the National Gallery has done is irresponsible and criminal. 110 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,320 Andres, it's great to see you. 111 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:58,840 Great to see you. 112 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,800 Andres Serrano's work confronts the raw realities of human existence, 113 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,840 sex, death, ethnicity, religion, and violence, 114 00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:11,600 territories where the notion of taboo is constantly at play. 115 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,200 Through his unwavering commitment to his beliefs 116 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,880 and his probing of humanity's complexities, 117 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:17,120 and his probing Serrano has developed a practice 118 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:18,440 Serrano has developed a practice 119 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:22,000 that is both prolific and internationally acclaimed. 120 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,080 His New York home is a shrine 121 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,800 and houses a vast collection of religious relics and antiquities, 122 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,800 an irony given that his art is often seen 123 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:37,320 as provocative or even antithetical to contemporary Christian values. 124 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,560 I was born and raised a Christian, 125 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,360 but I was born and raised a poor Christian, you know? 126 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:43,640 but I was born and raised a poor Christian, you know? And so, uh, this came after I made enough money 127 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,240 And so, uh, this came after I made enough money 128 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:47,480 And so, uh, this came to be able to buy things. 129 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,440 to be able to buy things. 130 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,760 28 years on from this complex cancellation of his work, 131 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:55,120 I'm curious how Andres' experience 132 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,960 has shaped his thoughts on who's in charge of taboo. 133 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,880 If we could transport ourselves back to 1997 134 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:02,120 If we could transport and the National Gallery of Victoria 135 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:03,480 and the National Gallery of Victoria 136 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,240 was showing your really incredible work, Piss Christ, 137 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,280 what was it like to experience, 138 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:11,120 dare I say, the controversy? 139 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,360 The bad part was the show was cancelled. 140 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,520 The good part was everybody in Australia heard about it. 141 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:15,760 The good part was everybody You know, 142 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:16,600 You know, 143 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:16,840 more people heard about it than You know, 144 00:06:16,840 --> 00:06:18,680 more people heard about it than would have gone to see the show. 145 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:18,920 more people heard about it than So that's the thing where I say, 146 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:20,000 So that's the thing where I say, 147 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,200 sometimes you got to take the good with the bad. 148 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,920 I mean, was that something that was really, I mean, 149 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,440 disappointing on a personal level that you hoped 150 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,160 that people would kind of maybe expand their minds 151 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:31,400 that people would kind of about why you make this work? 152 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:32,800 about why you make this work? 153 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,760 Art often provokes. 154 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:35,960 There's always the new, 155 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:37,440 and sometimes the new 156 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:37,680 is unfamiliar enough and sometimes the new 157 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:42,520 is unfamiliar enough to make people feel uncomfortable. 158 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,560 In my case, I've always said my work is open to interpretation. 159 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,400 When you join a sacred image to excrement, 160 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,320 everybody understands that that is taken to be insulting. 161 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:53,600 Well, actually, no, because I thought he was saying, everybody understands that that is taken to be insulting. 162 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,360 Well, actually, no, because I thought he was saying, 163 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,320 "This is what we are doing to Christ. 164 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,040 "We're not treating him with reverence. 165 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:01,280 "We live very vulgar lives. with reverence. 166 00:07:01,280 --> 00:07:03,720 "We live very vulgar lives. 167 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,520 "We put Christ in a bottle of urine, in practice." 168 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:07,800 "We put Christ in a bottle of urine, in practice." Depending on how you feel about what you're looking at, 169 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,960 Depending on how you feel about what you're looking at, 170 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,760 whether it's a picture of someone in a morgue or Ku Klux Klan, 171 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:15,000 whether it's a picture of someone even Donald Trump... 172 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:15,920 even Donald Trump... 173 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,840 I took a picture of Donald Trump for my America series. 174 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,960 So depending on how you feel about that subject, 175 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:22,200 So depending on how you feel that particular person, 176 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,000 that particular person, 177 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,440 it says more about you than about me, 178 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,240 because in my work I don't judge. 179 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,480 I treat everyone the same, and I try to make them all look good. 180 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:32,720 I treat everyone the same, and I try So who is in charge of taboos then? 181 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,560 So who is in charge of taboos then? 182 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:36,640 I don't know who's in charge of taboo. 183 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:36,880 I don't know I'm not in charge of taboo. 184 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:38,360 I'm not in charge of taboo. 185 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:39,200 (LAUGHS) 186 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,960 I'm inspired by Andres' perspective and stamina, 187 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,000 how he invites us to form our own engagement with the subjects 188 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:46,240 how he invites us to form our own regardless of where we draw the line. 189 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,480 regardless of where we draw the line. 190 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,840 Even if we think his images are taboo, 191 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:51,080 Even if we think his images their real power is in asking 192 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:52,840 their real power is in asking 193 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,280 how we chose to interpret the world around us. 194 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:00,040 For some, taboo can be interpreted as cultural or personal freedom 195 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:00,280 For some, taboo can be interpreted against the status quo. 196 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:01,960 against the status quo. 197 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,160 But on the fine margins of someone else's morality, 198 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,320 taboo can bring controversy and even disgust. 199 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,000 One famous provocateur knew this all too well, 200 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:13,240 One famous provocateur and in 1785, 201 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:14,920 and in 1785, 202 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:15,160 the controversial Marquis de Sade and in 1785, 203 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:20,200 the controversial Marquis de Sade created 120 Days Of Sodom, 204 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,480 the shocking and transgressive novel exploring extreme human cruelty, 205 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:24,720 the shocking and transgressive novel power and perversion. 206 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:26,320 power and perversion. 207 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:31,160 But was there method behind the apparent madness of the Marquis? 208 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:31,400 Who was the Marquis de Sade? But was there method behind the apparent madness of the Marquis? 209 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,520 Who was the Marquis de Sade? 210 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,360 He's alternatively been described 211 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,480 as one of the greatest artistic minds that's ever lived, 212 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,880 and one of the most deranged and monstrous human beings. 213 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:43,120 and one of the most deranged and monstrous human beings. OK. 214 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:44,200 OK. 215 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,400 He spent 30-plus years of his life imprisoned, 216 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,000 was never formally charged for anything, 217 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:49,240 was never formally charged but was essentially put away 218 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:50,240 but was essentially put away 219 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,240 because he was seen as dangerous under three different governments. 220 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:53,480 because he was seen as dangerous What an achievement! 221 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,080 What an achievement! 222 00:08:55,080 --> 00:09:00,040 He wrote some of his works while witnessing 223 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,640 the daily executions during the Reign of Terror. 224 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,720 His prison cell was positioned right above the guillotine. 225 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,000 Can you tell me what taboos does the Marquis explore 226 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:11,240 Can you tell me what taboos in 120 Days Of Sodom? 227 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:12,800 in 120 Days Of Sodom? 228 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:13,040 It might be an easier question in 120 Days Of Sodom? 229 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:14,160 It might be an easier question to say 230 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,320 what taboos AREN'T covered in this book, frankly. 231 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,960 The book is set around four men of power 232 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,320 that document the various sexual taboos that exist. 233 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:23,560 that document the various We have cannibalism, incest, 234 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:26,760 We have cannibalism, incest, 235 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,800 bodily mutilation, 236 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,800 flagellation, scatology and murder. 237 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,880 To this day, this is one of the most censored works 238 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,400 of pornographic literature that we have. 239 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:44,560 What do you think the legacy of 120 Days Of Sodom is today? 240 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:46,800 If people say it's too vile and it's too monstrous, 241 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:47,040 If people say it's too vile there's an argument to be had there. 242 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:48,680 there's an argument to be had there. 243 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:53,920 At the same time, is this meant to be an allegorical story 244 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:54,160 At the same time, is this of how power corrupts? 245 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,040 of how power corrupts? 246 00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:00,200 Pornographers in the 18th century were writing to inspire revolution. 247 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:00,480 And this is the man who, while in the Bastille prison, Pornographers in the 18th century were writing to inspire revolution. 248 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,240 And this is the man who, while in the Bastille prison, 249 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,000 yells outside of his window through his piss tube, 250 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,200 saying they're killing the prisoners inside, "You must help us," 251 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:10,480 saying they're killing the prisoners inside, "You must help us," and literally inspires the storming of the Bastille. 252 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,640 and literally inspires the storming of the Bastille. 253 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:13,880 and literally inspires So, in every sense, 254 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,560 So, in every sense, 255 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:16,800 you've got this person who is in So, in every sense, 256 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:23,120 you've got this person who is in the midst of this momentous change, 257 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,520 but again, takes it too far at every single moment. 258 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:31,560 While I don't recommend adding 120 Days Of Sodom to your book club, 259 00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:34,840 if we look past the Marquis de Sade's depravity, 260 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,680 maybe we can see the familiar modern figure of a whistleblower, 261 00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:40,920 even if that whistle was a piss tube. 262 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,200 Challenging ignorance and prejudice head on 263 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,440 can put artists on a collision course 264 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:47,680 can put artists that may come across as taboo, 265 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:49,560 that may come across as taboo, 266 00:10:49,560 --> 00:10:49,800 even though there is reason that may come across as taboo, 267 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,840 even though there is reason for doing this - 268 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:56,560 to deliberately create situations to shock others into their reality. 269 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,360 But for some, ambiguity isn't on the menu. 270 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,160 Sam Petersen is a visual artist, writer, and performer. 271 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,600 The Slow Violence Cook Book is a collection of Sam's writings, 272 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,400 interspersed with variations of the same cake recipe 273 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:12,640 interspersed with variations repeated over and over. 274 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,080 repeated over and over. 275 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,920 I hope they are meant to look like this. 276 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:21,240 Hey, Sam. 277 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,000 How are you? 278 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,880 Look, I made one of your cakes. A peanut butter cake. 279 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:27,120 Look, I made one of your cakes. Ooh. 280 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:28,040 Ooh. 281 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:30,720 But I think it looks like a turd. 282 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:32,880 (LAUGHS) 283 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,160 ELECTRONIC VOICE: Very curious to taste. 284 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:35,400 ELECTRONIC VOICE: They weren't all meant to work. 285 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,440 They weren't all meant to work. 286 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:37,640 The recipes are all the same cake, They weren't all meant to work. 287 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,880 The recipes are all the same cake, 288 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,120 but with different flavours to represent 289 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,400 the sameness of the constant ableism. 290 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:44,640 the sameness of the constant ableism. Or the constant turds. 291 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:45,840 Or the constant turds. 292 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:47,400 (LAUGHS) 293 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,160 (LAUGHS) 294 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:54,520 Apocalypse Vulture is Sam's latest sculpture. 295 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,840 The rigged out chair features a modified disabled logo, 296 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,520 loudspeakers, catheter piss guns, and a poo chute. 297 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,960 It's being used in a photo shoot for Sam's upcoming short film. 298 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,120 I could really see you burning up the film set 299 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:10,360 I could really see you with a new version of, I don't know, 300 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:11,520 with a new version of, I don't know, 301 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,080 Tina Turner's appearance in... 302 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,360 (BOTH LAUGH) 303 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:17,840 Is it Beyond Thunderdome? 304 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:19,960 It will be over political, 305 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,880 containing every bit of taboo I've done and then some. 306 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:25,120 containing every bit of taboo I would say wrapped in grossness. 307 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,360 I would say wrapped in grossness. 308 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,880 But a lot of what I've written about is pretty bad. 309 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,760 It will have pee, defaecation, road kill, 310 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:35,000 It will have pee, defaecation, ugliness, neglect, 311 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,040 ugliness, neglect, 312 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,160 loneliness, bullying, 313 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:40,600 infantilization, 314 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,280 and plain old abuse, 315 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:42,520 reflecting treatment I have endured and plain old abuse, 316 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,800 reflecting treatment I have endured in real-world scenarios. 317 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,160 In doing so, hopefully showing the world how horrible it can be. 318 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:52,400 In doing so, hopefully showing Sam, is taboo your secret weapon? 319 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,920 Sam, is taboo your secret weapon? 320 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,800 Not sure what is secret about it, but yes, 321 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:00,600 I do use it like a weapon, 322 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:02,680 because I have every reason to. 323 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,880 As well as sculpture and performance and recently used collage, 324 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:08,120 As well as sculpture and performance this piece, You Need Us, 325 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,200 this piece, You Need Us, 326 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:11,760 is a series of ransom letters 327 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,600 detailing Sam's demands to an ableist society. 328 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,440 Art is a powerful communication tool, 329 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,680 and how Sam mixes playfulness with genuine anger 330 00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:25,680 to force us to respond is an important act of dignity. 331 00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:28,240 The work confronts deep-lying taboos 332 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,440 about how people with disabilities are viewed. 333 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:31,680 about how people with disabilities Because there is this concept 334 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:33,240 Because there is this concept 335 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,920 that we have to be grateful for everything. 336 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,600 I laugh the hardest in the grimmest points of my life. 337 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,280 Humour is rage, humour is shock, 338 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:46,640 and we like to shock 339 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,640 because we are so full of rage. 340 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,480 And when you are driven to the brink lots of times, 341 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,000 you start to see things 342 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:57,080 and it is all too tempting to use them in your work. 343 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:57,320 and it is all too tempting So, Sam, who is in charge of taboo? 344 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,360 So, Sam, who is in charge of taboo? 345 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:01,560 I am. 346 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,320 Because I don't care. 347 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,840 Well, I do a little. 348 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,280 When I come up with a concept, I think, 349 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:12,520 When I come up with a concept, "Hehe, great idea." 350 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,360 "Hehe, great idea." 351 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,440 But then I start to doubt myself. 352 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:17,680 Because I'm not the only one But then I start to doubt myself. 353 00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:22,160 Because I'm not the only one with disabilities in this world, 354 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,440 and I've been through so much indignity... 355 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,920 ..that I start to wonder whether I'm doing the right thing. 356 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:32,720 But inevitably, I do the taboo 357 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:32,960 because I know But inevitably, I do the taboo 358 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,320 because I know it's the only way forward. 359 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,800 And it feels so powerful to take it back. 360 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,680 (ELECTRONIC SCREAMING) 361 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,440 OK, are we all dying to have a piece of this cake? 362 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:54,720 Oh, my. 363 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,400 It's a little soft inside. OK, here we go. 364 00:14:59,400 --> 00:14:59,640 It's a little soft inside. Who wants to try some turd? 365 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,600 Who wants to try some turd? 366 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,120 Do you think that's what taboo tastes like? 367 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:11,360 Do you think An aspect. 368 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:12,360 An aspect. 369 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,800 Watching Sam take charge of taboo so powerfully 370 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:16,040 Watching Sam take charge of taboo is compelling and important. 371 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:17,960 is compelling and important. 372 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,200 Another artist who understands the delicate balance 373 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:24,440 Another artist of sharing personal stories 374 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:25,920 of sharing personal stories 375 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:31,880 is Australia's representative at the 2026 Venice Biennale. 376 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:33,440 Hey, brother. Hey, bro. 377 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,680 My dear friend Khaled Sabsabi, 378 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,320 whose work I included in the curated exhibition Taboo 379 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,520 at the Museum of Contemporary Art Australia in 2012. 380 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:42,760 at the Museum of Contemporary Art Welcome, Brook. Come in. 381 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:44,440 Welcome, Brook. Come in. 382 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,880 And we might have a look at content from the archive. 383 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:50,960 I'm curious to get Khaled's understanding 384 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:51,200 I'm curious to get of what taboo means to him, 385 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,440 of what taboo means to him, 386 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,520 especially in the context of a global view of migration, 387 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,640 spiritual growth, and freedom of speech. 388 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,320 No way. This is from Taboo. 389 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,880 In 2012, he contributed A Bird Of Peace 390 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:06,120 In 2012, to a work called Vitrines, 391 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:07,680 to a work called Vitrines, 392 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,920 which collected various mementos from artists 393 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,880 along with photographs of war, genocide and conflict. 394 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:16,720 Look at that. Being happy. 395 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:16,920 Yeah, I was really happy. Look at that. Being happy. 396 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,880 Yeah, I was really happy. 397 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:19,880 Peace vendor. 398 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:21,000 I'm still happy, bro. 399 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,960 His family emigrated to Australia in the 1970s, 400 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:26,200 His family emigrated to Australia fleeing the civil war in Lebanon. 401 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,440 fleeing the civil war in Lebanon. 402 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,000 I remember being in a boot of a car 403 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:34,560 and then nothing after that, 404 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:36,120 and then just waking up at a border. 405 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,680 Khaled Sabsabi's remarkable life journey deeply informs his art. 406 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,720 Guided by a commitment to social justice, 407 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,240 his immersive installations delve into themes 408 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,040 of displacement and belonging, 409 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:50,680 the persistence of hope, 410 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,600 and the spiritual dimensions of mysticism and Sufism. 411 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:54,880 and the spiritual dimensions of mysticism and Sufism. Music and sound is so important to me. 412 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:56,800 Music and sound is so important to me. 413 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:57,040 Music and sound Sort of multi-sensory experience. 414 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,360 Sort of multi-sensory experience. 415 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,520 Khaled Sabsabi's artistic journey began in the 1990s, 416 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,800 when he was working as a youth worker 417 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,640 and became immersed in Sydney's hip-hop scene. 418 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,440 It was here that he discovered his voice, 419 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,000 blending his commitment to activism 420 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,480 with his passion for creative expression. 421 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,720 You talk about peace and you talk about collaboration. 422 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,880 How is taboo tied up in that for you? 423 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,760 Through my memories of childhood, yes, 424 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,560 there was memory of war and trauma, 425 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:31,800 but there was also moments of religious spiritual ceremonies. there was memory of war and trauma, 426 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:37,760 but there was also moments of religious spiritual ceremonies. 427 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,120 Khaled's art is an invitation 428 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:41,360 to step into the delicate terrain of ideas Khaled's art is an invitation 429 00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:43,640 to step into the delicate terrain of ideas 430 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,280 often left unspoken, even taboo. 431 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:46,520 often left unspoken, even taboo. Yet here they become spaces for dialogue and reflection. 432 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,600 Yet here they become spaces for dialogue and reflection. 433 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:50,840 Rooted in the Sufi path, Yet here they become spaces for dialogue and reflection. 434 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,520 Rooted in the Sufi path, 435 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,920 his work reaches towards the divine 436 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:55,160 his work reaches towards the divine through the languages of love, learning and devotion, 437 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,000 through the languages of love, learning and devotion, 438 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,320 offering a journey that is at once personal and universal. 439 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,760 If we're going to speak about Tasawwuf - Sufism... 440 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:14,600 ..then we have to open the discussion, 441 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,880 and the only way you can actually open the discussion... 442 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:21,600 ..is to cleanse. 443 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,880 Give me your right hand. Turn it over. 444 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,520 Now we can talk about Sufism and Tasawwuf. 445 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:45,760 The idea of a guide and a teacher in Tasawwuf... 446 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,160 ..is so critical to the point 447 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,200 of what is taboo? 448 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,360 With taboo comes knowledge. 449 00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,680 You are a custodian of knowledge. 450 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:05,000 But when you are a custodian of knowledge... 451 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:11,360 ..there comes responsibility and accountability. 452 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,360 How much of that knowledge do you share? 453 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:17,880 And with whom are you sharing it with? 454 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,800 Is there a way in which that you thought 455 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:25,040 people might receive your work? in which that you thought 456 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:26,560 people might receive your work? 457 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:26,800 people might receive your work? And there's been a difference in which it has been received? 458 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,320 And there's been a difference in which it has been received? 459 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:35,440 I don't particularly make work for one type of audience. 460 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,920 It does ask questions, 461 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,320 which relates back to the idea of taboo, 462 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:43,880 because there's some things that you say, 463 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:44,120 because there's some things "Well, that's shame 464 00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:45,680 "Well, that's shame 465 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,360 "or that's, like, mahzur or muharam," 466 00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:52,240 which are two Arabic words, which means forbidden. 467 00:19:55,360 --> 00:20:00,840 To make work is about broadening conversations... 468 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,000 ..regardless of ethnicity, 469 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:04,240 regardless of faith, ..regardless of ethnicity, 470 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,360 regardless of faith, regardless of gender. 471 00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:07,640 And part of making artwork is part of a healing process for me. regardless of faith, regardless of gender. 472 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:13,080 And part of making artwork is part of a healing process for me. 473 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:13,360 And part of making artwork is part of a healing process for me. So, Khaled, who is in control of taboo? 474 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:16,160 So, Khaled, who is in control of taboo? 475 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,160 The person that holds the knowledge. 476 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:23,960 That's who I feel is in control of taboo. 477 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:29,200 Cut. 478 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,360 Conversations with Khaled 479 00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:31,600 remind me that engaging with taboos Conversations with Khaled 480 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,520 remind me that engaging with taboos always carries risk, 481 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,280 both for the subjects and for the artists themselves. 482 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,520 It also raises questions I'm often asked. 483 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,720 "What is it that artists seek from their audiences 484 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:45,960 "What is it that artists seek "when we confront the taboo?" 485 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:47,120 "when we confront the taboo?" 486 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,160 All opposing sides, they're all part of the same thing. 487 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:51,400 All opposing sides, they're all part of the same thing. We're all part of this planet. 488 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,160 We're all part of this planet. 489 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,960 And if you think about what they say about the universal mind, 490 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,160 we're even more connected than we know. 491 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,400 I was one of 200 artists 492 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,240 and creators and writers who were invited to the Vatican 493 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:06,480 and creators and writers to hear Pope Francis speak. 494 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,480 to hear Pope Francis speak. 495 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,200 And when I went up to the Pope and I said to him, 496 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,000 "Your Holiness, my name is Andres Serrano, 497 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,360 "and I've come here to ask for your blessing." 498 00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:17,600 "and I've come here And the Pope smiled. 499 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,400 And the Pope smiled. 500 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:20,960 He took my hand. 501 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,480 He tapped it twice, and then he went like that. 502 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:23,720 He tapped it twice, And afterwards the press said to me, 503 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,160 And afterwards the press said to me, 504 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:26,400 "You were the only one And afterwards the press said to me, 505 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,280 "You were the only one he gave a thumbs up to." 506 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,320 I got what I always wanted from Pope Francis, 507 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,240 not only an acknowledgement that I was an artist, 508 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:36,480 not only an acknowledgement that I'm a Christian, 509 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:37,560 that I'm a Christian, 510 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,840 but also a thumbs up. (LAUGHS) 511 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:41,800 And this is what we need, right, as artists? 512 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:42,040 And this is what we need, right, I mean, even when things get tough, 513 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,520 I mean, even when things get tough, 514 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:48,040 we need to know that people that we respect are respecting us back. 515 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,400 I think even when you're on opposing sides, you know... 516 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,400 Because I feel like things are very polarised right now. 517 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,000 There's that group and that group, and they hate each other. 518 00:21:59,000 --> 00:21:59,240 There's that group and that group, And you need to come to terms 519 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,720 And you need to come to terms 520 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,000 with speaking to each other without hate. 521 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,800 The need for respect and understanding 522 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,200 is something I think about constantly 523 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,680 when creating work with sensitive material. 524 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,560 So this is called Vox: Beyond Tasmania, 525 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:26,960 and it was really a way to resonate the human remains trade 526 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,200 and the scientific racism 527 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,200 that happened during those periods of colonialism 528 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:32,440 that happened during those periods in Australia specifically. 529 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,040 in Australia specifically. 530 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,440 This voxel, this voice, 531 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,280 is really a kind of opportunity for these skeletons, 532 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,920 these ancestors, to speak back to us today. 533 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:44,160 these ancestors, So it has books, it has research, 534 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,160 So it has books, it has research, 535 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,680 but it also has originally a human remain like a skeleton. 536 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,920 But recently I decided that scanning it 537 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:54,160 But recently I decided and doing a replica in plastic 538 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,200 and doing a replica in plastic 539 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,040 was the most honourable thing to do, 540 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,520 especially that, internationally and within Australia, 541 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,560 there's a huge movement of repatriation of human remains. 542 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:04,800 there's a huge movement To confront taboos 543 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,080 To confront taboos 544 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,680 is to step into uneasy territory when no answer is ever clear. 545 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,640 For artists, the challenge is urgent. 546 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:12,880 For artists, When does the pursuit of truth 547 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,200 When does the pursuit of truth 548 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,480 cross into exploitation or misunderstanding? 549 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,400 Like, I even had people from Tasmania saying, 550 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,280 "Is that a Tasmanian Aboriginal skull?" 551 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:22,560 So the Aboriginal community from there 552 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,640 ringing me up, thinking that I'd done that. 553 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:24,880 ringing me up, Yeah, there's a lot to consider. 554 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,120 Yeah, there's a lot to consider. 555 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,720 Today it can sometimes seem 556 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:29,960 that engaging with taboos Today it can sometimes seem 557 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,480 that engaging with taboos only fuels ongoing cultural wars, 558 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:33,720 that engaging with taboos where delicate and meaningful ideas 559 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,960 where delicate and meaningful ideas 560 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,520 are too easily dismissed or reduced to offences. 561 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:39,760 are too easily dismissed This makes me wonder 562 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,080 This makes me wonder 563 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,960 how did taboo come to stand as shorthand for conflict 564 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:46,600 rather than understanding? 565 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,160 To explore this, I turned to Sione Napi Francis, 566 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,680 a collections manager at Melbourne Museum, 567 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,720 whose insights can help trace the deeper origins of taboo. 568 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,000 So, Sione, where does the word 'taboo' come from? 569 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:00,280 The word was originally popularised by Captain Cook in 1777. So, Sione, where does the word 'taboo' come from? 570 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:05,360 The word was originally popularised by Captain Cook in 1777. 571 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:09,480 He came to Tongatapu, which is the main island of the Tonga group, 572 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:14,200 and it became to mean something very different to the original word, 573 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:14,440 which is 'tapu'. very different to the original word, 574 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,040 which is 'tapu'. 575 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:16,240 which is 'tapu'. 'Tapu' is a relational word. 576 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,240 'Tapu' is a relational word. 577 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,720 It's about the sacredness of people and places 578 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:22,960 It's about the sacredness of people and your relationship to it. 579 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,880 and your relationship to it. 580 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,120 Very important to mention the word 'tulou'. 581 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:28,360 Very important to mention the word Uh, 'tulou' is a word of respect. 582 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:32,160 Uh, 'tulou' is a word of respect. 583 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,080 So, for example, 584 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,480 a, uh, local First Nations elder, 585 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,040 if I was going to walk past them, 586 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:44,520 I would say, "Tulou," to show that that person has tapu within them. 587 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,360 And it's something that you need to respect. 588 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:50,440 So reflecting on the artists we've been speaking with and meeting, 589 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:50,680 So reflecting on the artists taboo seems to be about power. 590 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,920 taboo seems to be about power. 591 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,360 Yes, it's more about having difficult conversations 592 00:24:56,360 --> 00:24:56,600 Yes, it's more about about the context that you're in. 593 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,640 about the context that you're in. 594 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,640 For example, acknowledgement of country. 595 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,320 It's a way of balancing that power dynamic 596 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:10,080 and creating space for a real dialogue around difficult questions. 597 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:16,680 OK, if tapu is a way of protecting rather than persecuting, 598 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:16,920 OK, if tapu is a way of protecting then maybe taking control of taboo 599 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,800 then maybe taking control of taboo 600 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:19,040 means bringing togetherness then maybe taking control of taboo 601 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,080 means bringing togetherness rather than division. 602 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:25,680 When embraced in this way, 603 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,320 can tapu be understood not as a barrier, 604 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:28,560 can tapu be understood but as a healing force? 605 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,040 but as a healing force? 606 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:30,280 One that restores balance but as a healing force? 607 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,000 One that restores balance and honours connection. 608 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,000 To continue this journey, I turn to an artist 609 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,280 whose work is deeply rooted in her cultural traditions, 610 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,240 carrying forward the living meaning of tapu. 611 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,760 South Pacific Prints Kingdom of Tonga. 612 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:46,000 South Pacific Prints Where is this from? 613 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,160 Where is this from? 614 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,760 This is from Tonga. It was my mum's. 615 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:50,000 This is from Tonga. This is where the word 'taboo'... 616 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,280 This is where the word 'taboo'... 617 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:55,520 Ah! OK. 618 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:55,760 Ah! OK. is used today internationally, 619 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,400 The way in which 'taboo' is used today internationally, 620 00:25:58,400 --> 00:25:58,640 how does that feel? is used today internationally, 621 00:25:58,640 --> 00:25:59,880 how does that feel? 622 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,600 The word 'taboo' is very limited 623 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:02,840 The word 'taboo' is very limited something is really forbidden. 624 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,440 in the way that it can just mean something is really forbidden. 625 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:06,680 But for 'tapu', something is really forbidden. 626 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,240 But for 'tapu', 627 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,760 this describes how one would sanctify a space as well. 628 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,720 Maybe bringing community. Exactly. 629 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:15,960 Maybe bringing community. When communities understand 630 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,360 When communities understand 631 00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:20,640 when something has been sanctified as sacred, 632 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,320 it determines how they behave with each other 633 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:23,560 it determines how they behave and with the space that they're in. 634 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:24,920 and with the space that they're in. 635 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:25,160 So there's like an understanding and with the space that they're in. 636 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,880 So there's like an understanding in a way? 637 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:27,120 So there's like an understanding Totally. And it keeps them safe. 638 00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:28,520 Totally. And it keeps them safe. 639 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,760 Latai Taumoepeau is a Tongan punake and multidisciplinary artist 640 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,280 whose practice is grounded in faiva, 641 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:40,600 a body-centred tradition 642 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,240 that weaves together ritual, protest and ceremony. 643 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:44,480 that weaves together ritual, She addresses climate, justice, 644 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:45,880 She addresses climate, justice, 645 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,080 ancestral memory and Pacific sovereignty. 646 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,560 What does taboo, or tapu, mean to you? 647 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,800 You know, as an artist and as a woman 648 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,240 who works with performance and with my body, 649 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:57,480 who works with performance I have to take some of those risks. 650 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,000 I have to take some of those risks. 651 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,680 So risks are not always only dangerous risks, 652 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:03,920 So risks but social risks. 653 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,040 but social risks. 654 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:05,280 And I think but social risks. 655 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,680 And I think when you work with culture, 656 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:08,920 And I think I think you have to understand 657 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,160 I think you have to understand 658 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,960 that you are making that kind of commitment. 659 00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:17,920 Latai's works are complex physical compositions 660 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:18,200 Latai's works are complex physical compositions that allow or even require an audience to participate. 661 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,960 that allow or even require an audience to participate. 662 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,720 And today I get to see Latai's latest performance in person. 663 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,680 Usually I've done endurance performance work, 664 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,720 but this time it's a 15-minute choreographed score. 665 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,400 I work with young people and they learn it. 666 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,400 They rehearse it very quickly, and then they perform it. 667 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,280 Through the motion of rowing machines, 668 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:41,520 Through the motion high-school students activate voices 669 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,760 high-school students activate voices 670 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,520 recorded in the Latai's Tongan village. 671 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,080 This participatory work 672 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,400 immerses audiences in rhythms of tradition, 673 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,960 evoking ancestral ties and a living connection with the ocean. 674 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,640 Central to this work is an ancient prayer, 675 00:27:59,640 --> 00:27:59,880 Central to this work or a himo lotu. 676 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:00,840 or a himo lotu. 677 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:01,080 I wanted to use that or a himo lotu. 678 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,360 I wanted to use that as a way of continuing 679 00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:08,080 a communion with the deep sea sediment. 680 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,640 Experiencing the work feels almost hypnotic. 681 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:12,880 Experiencing the work I am not only transported, 682 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,320 I am not only transported, 683 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:14,560 but also enveloped I am not only transported, 684 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,520 but also enveloped in a sense of tapu 685 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,080 for the ocean and connection to ancestors, 686 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:20,320 for the ocean sacred realms, 687 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:21,560 sacred realms, 688 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:26,080 precious and fragile, under threat from forces of climate change. 689 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,080 This work is looking at all kinds of different ways 690 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:30,840 of exploring the sacred, 691 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,360 and also as a way into our custodianship of the ocean 692 00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:37,600 and our work to defend it. 693 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,640 The deep sea is a very sacred space. It's where we began. 694 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:41,880 The deep sea is a very sacred space. And so that sense of communion 695 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,800 And so that sense of communion 696 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:44,040 is something And so that sense of communion 697 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,960 is something that I wanted people to experience. 698 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,160 (APPLAUSE) 699 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,360 What I admire most about Latai's work 700 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,480 is how it comes alive through participation. 701 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,720 It calls us to rise, to engage, 702 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,360 and, through the transformative power of tapu, 703 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,000 to protect the fragile world we share. 704 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,560 And if that isn't reclaiming the meaning of taboo, 705 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:05,800 And if that isn't reclaiming I'm not sure what is. 706 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,240 I'm not sure what is. 707 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,760 It is serious reflection on history, identity, 708 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,640 and alternative views that continues to drive my work. 709 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,560 And sharing time with the extraordinary and brave artists 710 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:19,800 And sharing time with the I've encountered on this journey 711 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,320 I've encountered on this journey 712 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:21,560 has only deepened I've encountered on this journey 713 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,080 has only deepened that sense of respect 714 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:23,320 has only deepened and revealing truths 715 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:24,840 and revealing truths 716 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,440 that are sometimes difficult to reconcile and heal. 717 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,600 Taboos often signal areas of sensitivity and respect, 718 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,280 but they need not stand as roadblocks in life. 719 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,080 If we approach them with courage, imagination, 720 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:38,320 If we approach them with courage, care, and a willingness to listen, 721 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,560 care, and a willingness to listen, 722 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,440 taboos can become guides, 723 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:42,680 opening pathways to new ideas and new worlds taboos can become guides, 724 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,400 opening pathways to new ideas and new worlds 725 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:45,640 through art and beyond. and new worlds 726 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,840 through art and beyond.