1 00:00:03,612 --> 00:00:05,222 [gunfire] 2 00:00:05,266 --> 00:00:08,747 - In Waco, Texas, four law enforcement agents are dead 3 00:00:08,791 --> 00:00:10,227 and at least 12 injured 4 00:00:10,271 --> 00:00:13,709 in a shootout with a religious cult. 5 00:00:13,752 --> 00:00:15,754 - Through the beginning negotiations, 6 00:00:15,798 --> 00:00:16,581 you could hear rounds going off. 7 00:00:23,284 --> 00:00:25,373 [gunfire] 8 00:00:25,416 --> 00:00:27,070 - We wanted to get the kids out of there. 9 00:00:27,114 --> 00:00:29,594 - Cult leader David Koresh raised hopes 10 00:00:29,638 --> 00:00:32,031 that a peaceful end might be on the horizon. 11 00:00:32,075 --> 00:00:34,382 - He declared that he had heard from God 12 00:00:34,425 --> 00:00:36,819 that now is not the time to surrender. 13 00:00:36,862 --> 00:00:39,648 - It makes nobody's business whether we have a gun or not. 14 00:00:39,691 --> 00:00:41,606 - This is every law enforcement's worst nightmare. 15 00:00:41,650 --> 00:00:45,088 [sirens wailing] 16 00:00:45,132 --> 00:00:48,265 - The dangerous standoff drags on. 17 00:00:48,309 --> 00:00:50,093 - It was like a pressure, like a balloon. 18 00:00:50,137 --> 00:00:53,183 And every day, it gets more and more dangerous. 19 00:00:53,227 --> 00:00:54,967 - These are powerful signs of the government 20 00:00:55,011 --> 00:00:56,926 taking control of the situation. 21 00:00:56,969 --> 00:00:58,797 - There was one person 22 00:00:58,841 --> 00:01:01,322 that could have avoided this outcome... 23 00:01:07,763 --> 00:01:09,460 - And that was David Koresh. 24 00:01:09,504 --> 00:01:12,159 - If you're a true Christian and you believe the truth 25 00:01:12,202 --> 00:01:14,117 and you know the truth, the truth will set you free. 26 00:01:14,161 --> 00:01:17,816 - And the fire had started to consume the building. 27 00:01:17,860 --> 00:01:21,385 And I see a woman standing on the second floor. 28 00:01:21,429 --> 00:01:22,299 And then she jumped. 29 00:01:25,694 --> 00:01:27,174 [dramatic music] 30 00:01:27,217 --> 00:01:29,959 - In the FBI, we make a lot of headlines. 31 00:01:30,002 --> 00:01:33,180 ♪ 32 00:01:33,223 --> 00:01:34,877 Drug busts, 33 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,314 mob stings, 34 00:01:37,358 --> 00:01:39,533 terrorist takedowns. 35 00:01:39,577 --> 00:01:41,362 - Get down! Get down! 36 00:01:41,405 --> 00:01:44,060 - We understand why people want to tell stories about us. 37 00:01:44,104 --> 00:01:45,104 - Mark it. 38 00:01:45,148 --> 00:01:46,584 - Freeze! - FBI. 39 00:01:46,628 --> 00:01:48,586 - FBI! - Action! 40 00:01:48,630 --> 00:01:51,720 - But they don't know the half of it. 41 00:01:51,763 --> 00:01:53,896 What really goes down, 42 00:01:53,939 --> 00:01:56,158 we save that for each other 43 00:01:56,203 --> 00:01:58,378 when we're talking agent to agent. 44 00:01:58,422 --> 00:02:01,382 ♪ 45 00:02:01,425 --> 00:02:04,211 This is "FBI True." 46 00:02:11,261 --> 00:02:13,916 - Cult leader David Koresh raised hopes 47 00:02:13,959 --> 00:02:16,745 that a peaceful end might be on the horizon. 48 00:02:16,788 --> 00:02:18,747 He promised to give up if authorities would 49 00:02:18,790 --> 00:02:21,576 allow a radio station to play an audio cassette 50 00:02:21,619 --> 00:02:23,795 in which he explained his religious views. 51 00:02:23,839 --> 00:02:25,928 - So here we are, at this point. 52 00:02:25,971 --> 00:02:30,062 You know, hostage negotiators have spoke to Koresh. 53 00:02:30,106 --> 00:02:32,064 There was a plan for him to give up. 54 00:02:33,501 --> 00:02:37,200 - I, David Koresh, agree, upon the broadcasting of this tape, 55 00:02:37,244 --> 00:02:41,944 to come out peacefully with all the people. 56 00:02:41,987 --> 00:02:43,815 - He doesn't. He blatantly lies to us. 57 00:02:43,859 --> 00:02:45,991 We now know that he's untrustworthy and he's a liar. 58 00:02:51,606 --> 00:02:54,216 - At this point in the investigation, 59 00:02:54,261 --> 00:02:55,566 what do we know now? 60 00:02:55,610 --> 00:02:58,613 - Well, we know we have a murderer 61 00:02:58,656 --> 00:03:00,789 who killed four federal agents without remorse. 62 00:03:05,881 --> 00:03:07,230 - We know we have a child molester, 63 00:03:07,274 --> 00:03:09,580 because we have a slew of people coming out 64 00:03:09,624 --> 00:03:12,714 and saying he's had sex with 14- and 13-year-old girls, 65 00:03:12,757 --> 00:03:15,325 and the kids are there, in the compound with him. 66 00:03:15,369 --> 00:03:18,023 - A lot of beliefs people have may seem abnormal 67 00:03:18,067 --> 00:03:19,547 or strange to other people. 68 00:03:19,590 --> 00:03:22,941 That doesn't mean that it's not right, though. 69 00:03:22,985 --> 00:03:26,293 - He's demonstrated horrific faith, 70 00:03:26,336 --> 00:03:27,946 and he's not to be trusted. 71 00:03:27,990 --> 00:03:29,905 We need to kick the can down the road. 72 00:03:29,948 --> 00:03:32,560 - The dangerous standoff drags on. 73 00:03:32,603 --> 00:03:36,259 Cult members remain sealed inside the compound, 74 00:03:36,303 --> 00:03:40,655 and no one knows when or how this will all end. 75 00:03:40,698 --> 00:03:44,267 [tense music] 76 00:03:44,311 --> 00:03:47,836 ♪ 77 00:03:47,879 --> 00:03:50,969 - So when we talk about Koresh's wives 78 00:03:51,013 --> 00:03:53,711 and his underage "wives"... 79 00:03:53,755 --> 00:03:56,932 - How many wives do you have? - One. 80 00:03:56,975 --> 00:03:59,195 - One wife? - One wife. 81 00:03:59,239 --> 00:04:00,762 - Have you committed... - I've always had... 82 00:04:00,805 --> 00:04:02,720 have I committed adultery, is what you're fixing to ask? 83 00:04:02,764 --> 00:04:04,113 - Have you committed adultery? 84 00:04:04,156 --> 00:04:07,508 - [laughs] No, I don't commit adultery. 85 00:04:07,551 --> 00:04:08,944 - What's your understanding of that? 86 00:04:08,987 --> 00:04:10,424 - There was only one that 87 00:04:10,467 --> 00:04:12,121 he was legally married to, and that was Rachel, 88 00:04:12,164 --> 00:04:15,646 and she was 16 at the time that they were married. 89 00:04:15,690 --> 00:04:17,909 And the reason why that was legal 90 00:04:17,952 --> 00:04:20,216 is because her dad signed a agreement 91 00:04:20,260 --> 00:04:22,914 to allow her to marry him. 92 00:04:22,957 --> 00:04:24,699 - And what is your understanding 93 00:04:24,742 --> 00:04:28,616 of some of his youngest "brides," in his eyes? 94 00:04:32,359 --> 00:04:33,490 - Bye. 95 00:04:37,233 --> 00:04:39,322 - God was telling him to marry them. 96 00:04:39,366 --> 00:04:44,327 And then his belief system was that if he had sex with them, 97 00:04:44,371 --> 00:04:46,024 then that meant they were married. 98 00:04:46,068 --> 00:04:48,331 It's not like they had to have some sort of formal ceremony. 99 00:04:48,375 --> 00:04:55,382 ♪ 100 00:04:55,991 --> 00:05:00,865 Raping these young girls, that then made them his wife. 101 00:05:00,909 --> 00:05:02,954 And that also included 102 00:05:02,998 --> 00:05:06,654 any of the women that joined the cult 103 00:05:06,697 --> 00:05:09,787 who were already married to other men. 104 00:05:09,831 --> 00:05:12,747 They surrendered their wives to Koresh. 105 00:05:12,790 --> 00:05:15,140 And they not only surrendered their wives, 106 00:05:15,184 --> 00:05:19,188 but any children that they already had with their wives 107 00:05:19,231 --> 00:05:21,886 became Koresh's children. 108 00:05:21,930 --> 00:05:24,976 So all children were his children. 109 00:05:28,328 --> 00:05:29,807 All women were his wives. 110 00:05:33,289 --> 00:05:36,161 - And the youngest age of one of his brides? 111 00:05:36,205 --> 00:05:37,380 - Ten. - Ten years old? 112 00:05:37,424 --> 00:05:38,468 - Yeah. 113 00:05:46,911 --> 00:05:52,221 ♪ 114 00:05:52,264 --> 00:05:53,744 - Law-enforcement officers described 115 00:05:53,788 --> 00:05:55,920 the present situation as static. 116 00:05:55,964 --> 00:05:58,270 They say they want to end this confrontation 117 00:05:58,314 --> 00:06:00,490 without bloodshed, and they are willing 118 00:06:00,534 --> 00:06:02,318 to wait as long as it takes 119 00:06:02,362 --> 00:06:06,322 as long as the delay does not endanger anyone's life. 120 00:06:06,366 --> 00:06:09,543 - So now we're at day 25. - Right. 121 00:06:09,586 --> 00:06:12,197 - Koresh has lied to us over and over and over again. 122 00:06:12,241 --> 00:06:13,938 What are you thinking? Ten more days? 123 00:06:13,982 --> 00:06:15,853 What's the passage of time feel like for you at this point? 124 00:06:15,897 --> 00:06:17,855 - Groundhog Day. 125 00:06:17,899 --> 00:06:22,469 - It became almost, you know, complacent. 126 00:06:22,512 --> 00:06:25,646 Day after day, we'd ride by the front of the compound, 127 00:06:25,689 --> 00:06:27,778 and sometimes Davidians would be waving at us 128 00:06:27,822 --> 00:06:28,692 through the window. 129 00:06:31,347 --> 00:06:32,435 - They knew they were running the show, 130 00:06:32,479 --> 00:06:33,828 it felt like, you know? 131 00:06:33,871 --> 00:06:35,960 And it was like a pressure, like a balloon. 132 00:06:36,004 --> 00:06:37,484 And every day this thing goes on, 133 00:06:37,527 --> 00:06:39,311 the more pressure gets in that balloon. 134 00:06:39,355 --> 00:06:41,792 And it gets more and more dangerous. 135 00:06:41,836 --> 00:06:43,968 Koresh was always trying to do little things 136 00:06:44,012 --> 00:06:45,970 to show that he was still in charge. 137 00:06:46,014 --> 00:06:48,843 And he would do stuff. Like, at 2:00 in the morning, 138 00:06:48,886 --> 00:06:52,324 he would start with his guitar, serenading us essentially. 139 00:07:08,166 --> 00:07:10,168 - I'm sitting there watching the compound, 140 00:07:10,212 --> 00:07:11,779 and I see Koresh sitting up 141 00:07:11,822 --> 00:07:14,608 on the second story on a windowsill. 142 00:07:14,651 --> 00:07:17,088 And he's playing his electric guitar. 143 00:07:17,132 --> 00:07:20,265 And he's intentionally showing the wound to his wrist 144 00:07:20,309 --> 00:07:22,485 and the wound to his side, 145 00:07:22,529 --> 00:07:24,922 trying to compare himself to Jesus Christ 146 00:07:24,966 --> 00:07:28,535 and the crucifixion. 147 00:07:28,578 --> 00:07:30,667 Then stops and eats a little bit of ramen noodles 148 00:07:30,711 --> 00:07:32,669 and drinks some Juicy Juice. 149 00:07:32,713 --> 00:07:34,366 It's like, "I can stay here forever. 150 00:07:34,409 --> 00:07:37,065 This is my kingdom, and I'm the king." 151 00:07:37,108 --> 00:07:40,372 [rock music] 152 00:07:47,031 --> 00:07:48,859 - What were some of the distraction tactics? 153 00:07:48,903 --> 00:07:50,295 With the music? 154 00:07:50,339 --> 00:07:52,080 And what kind of sounds is being thrown out 155 00:07:52,123 --> 00:07:53,734 to put the pressure back on them? 156 00:07:53,777 --> 00:07:56,214 - I mean, they were playing some pretty interesting songs, 157 00:07:56,258 --> 00:07:57,955 like Nancy Sinatra. 158 00:07:57,999 --> 00:07:59,261 [Nancy Sinatra's "These Boots Are Made for Walking"] 159 00:07:59,304 --> 00:08:00,697 - ♪ You keep playing 160 00:08:00,741 --> 00:08:02,656 ♪ Where you shouldn't be playing ♪ 161 00:08:02,699 --> 00:08:04,875 ♪ 162 00:08:04,919 --> 00:08:07,704 - And then, you know, rabbits being slaughtered. 163 00:08:07,748 --> 00:08:10,620 [foghorn blaring, dolphin chittering] 164 00:08:10,664 --> 00:08:12,274 I mean, that's always fun. 165 00:08:12,317 --> 00:08:14,581 - Chanting monks. - Chanting monks. 166 00:08:14,624 --> 00:08:18,889 [chanting] 167 00:08:18,933 --> 00:08:20,543 I mean, I don't know where they came up with this stuff. 168 00:08:20,587 --> 00:08:22,110 We're sitting back in our position, 169 00:08:22,153 --> 00:08:24,721 listening to it and going, "OK, that would keep me awake." 170 00:08:24,765 --> 00:08:27,071 - Who set up the speakers for all this? 171 00:08:27,115 --> 00:08:29,552 - We did. HRT did. - Yeah, the HRT guys. 172 00:08:29,596 --> 00:08:31,075 - So when you guys are setting up the speakers, 173 00:08:31,119 --> 00:08:32,207 what are you thinking at this point? 174 00:08:32,250 --> 00:08:34,078 - "Don't get shot." [laughter] 175 00:08:34,121 --> 00:08:35,993 - Oh, so you were having to go right out front 176 00:08:36,037 --> 00:08:37,429 and expose yourself? - Yes. 177 00:08:37,472 --> 00:08:38,474 - I'm thinking, "Charlie, cover me 178 00:08:38,518 --> 00:08:39,431 while we do this." - Yeah. 179 00:08:39,475 --> 00:08:43,434 [tense music] 180 00:08:43,479 --> 00:08:45,481 - During the day, there were military 181 00:08:45,525 --> 00:08:47,048 and medical helicopter flyovers 182 00:08:47,091 --> 00:08:49,572 and tank maneuvers on the compound grounds. 183 00:08:49,616 --> 00:08:51,531 These are powerful signs of the government 184 00:08:51,574 --> 00:08:53,750 taking control of the situation. 185 00:08:53,794 --> 00:08:56,100 Federal agents want David Koresh and his followers 186 00:08:56,144 --> 00:08:58,886 to get the message. 187 00:08:58,929 --> 00:09:01,366 - What else did we do to apply some pressure? 188 00:09:01,410 --> 00:09:03,412 - Power had been cut off. - Yeah. 189 00:09:03,455 --> 00:09:04,674 - How long was the power cut off? 190 00:09:04,718 --> 00:09:06,502 - Just almost the whole time. 191 00:09:06,546 --> 00:09:08,286 - That's typical in barricaded subject situations, 192 00:09:08,330 --> 00:09:09,287 as you know. - Yes. 193 00:09:09,331 --> 00:09:10,550 - That's not an unusual tactic. 194 00:09:10,593 --> 00:09:12,856 - We are trying to reinforce to them 195 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:14,858 that we are in charge of the situation, 196 00:09:14,902 --> 00:09:16,294 that the compound is under 197 00:09:16,338 --> 00:09:18,296 the complete control of the government. 198 00:09:18,340 --> 00:09:19,689 - Right, they're gonna cut the power, 199 00:09:19,733 --> 00:09:21,169 they're gonna cut the phones. - Yeah. 200 00:09:21,212 --> 00:09:22,344 - They're gonna cut lights. - Make sure 201 00:09:22,387 --> 00:09:23,737 they don't have gas. - Right. 202 00:09:23,780 --> 00:09:25,173 - And then on top of that, they had no plumbing, 203 00:09:25,216 --> 00:09:29,090 so they were living in pretty primitive conditions. 204 00:09:29,133 --> 00:09:31,135 And then you add sleep deprivation to that, 205 00:09:31,179 --> 00:09:32,746 and, you know, you're making it 206 00:09:32,789 --> 00:09:34,790 a pretty miserable type of environment 207 00:09:34,835 --> 00:09:36,445 that hopefully, they're gonna try to come out. 208 00:09:36,488 --> 00:09:41,537 ♪ 209 00:09:41,581 --> 00:09:42,712 - Were there other moments 210 00:09:42,756 --> 00:09:44,627 where you felt like there was hope? 211 00:09:44,671 --> 00:09:46,760 - Well, there were a couple of times that they decided 212 00:09:46,803 --> 00:09:49,545 they needed to try to go up and do a face-to-face, 213 00:09:49,589 --> 00:09:52,243 with Koresh preferably, 214 00:09:52,287 --> 00:09:54,028 but it ended up being with Steve Schneider. 215 00:09:56,857 --> 00:09:59,033 We developed an approach 216 00:09:59,076 --> 00:10:02,950 to where we were going to try to convince Steve Schneider 217 00:10:02,993 --> 00:10:05,126 to break from Koresh. 218 00:10:05,169 --> 00:10:08,608 - He is like the aide-de-camp to David Koresh. 219 00:10:08,651 --> 00:10:11,698 And David Koresh had taken his wife, 220 00:10:11,741 --> 00:10:13,482 impregnated her... - Correct. 221 00:10:13,525 --> 00:10:15,223 - And had a baby with her. - Correct. 222 00:10:15,266 --> 00:10:18,008 - So what possibly could you say to Schneider 223 00:10:18,052 --> 00:10:22,317 to have him break from the bad messiah? 224 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,842 - Well, we knew that Koresh had convinced the men 225 00:10:25,886 --> 00:10:28,497 that they needed to give up their wives 226 00:10:28,540 --> 00:10:30,107 so that they could all become his wives 227 00:10:30,151 --> 00:10:32,022 and have his children. 228 00:10:32,066 --> 00:10:33,720 And we knew that Steve Schneider's wife 229 00:10:33,763 --> 00:10:36,287 was one of those and that she had had a baby by him. 230 00:10:36,331 --> 00:10:37,985 - Huh. - What is your name? 231 00:10:38,028 --> 00:10:40,683 - My name is Judy Schneider-Koresh, 232 00:10:40,727 --> 00:10:42,337 and this is my daughter, Mynah. 233 00:10:48,735 --> 00:10:51,999 - And so we decided that our best shot at that 234 00:10:52,042 --> 00:10:53,870 was to try to go after Schneider 235 00:10:53,914 --> 00:10:57,526 and really get him upset about that aspect of it... 236 00:11:00,398 --> 00:11:02,792 - And really appeal to his emotional side 237 00:11:02,836 --> 00:11:05,708 and to his side as a husband 238 00:11:05,752 --> 00:11:09,103 and see if we could get him really, really angry 239 00:11:09,146 --> 00:11:11,845 to the point of where he would break away from Koresh. 240 00:11:11,888 --> 00:11:13,716 And so we went at him. 241 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,197 We told him, you know, "How does it feel 242 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,068 "knowing that the woman that you love 243 00:11:18,112 --> 00:11:19,548 "and your wife for several years 244 00:11:19,591 --> 00:11:22,420 "is no longer available to you 245 00:11:22,464 --> 00:11:25,032 "and really is not your wife anymore 246 00:11:25,075 --> 00:11:27,382 "and that he has taken her as his wife? 247 00:11:27,425 --> 00:11:30,254 "And in fact, how does it feel, you living there, 248 00:11:30,298 --> 00:11:31,691 "seeing that baby every day, 249 00:11:31,734 --> 00:11:33,954 knowing that that baby is his blood?" 250 00:11:42,614 --> 00:11:44,921 - And we kept hammering him with that, 251 00:11:44,965 --> 00:11:48,142 and he got pretty upset, 252 00:11:48,185 --> 00:11:51,754 because he knew what we were saying was definitely something 253 00:11:51,798 --> 00:11:53,756 that had been bothering him for a long time. 254 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,324 - So man to man, you were able to tickle that man gene 255 00:11:56,367 --> 00:11:58,892 a little bit, like, "Yo, brother, that's not normal." 256 00:11:58,935 --> 00:12:01,503 - Correct. And we tickled it pretty hard. 257 00:12:01,546 --> 00:12:05,420 You know, he got upset, and then a very quick, 258 00:12:05,463 --> 00:12:08,858 complete reversal, like he flipped a switch. 259 00:12:08,902 --> 00:12:11,774 He went back to being the Steve Schneider, 260 00:12:11,818 --> 00:12:13,384 number two guy to David Koresh. 261 00:12:13,428 --> 00:12:15,386 And when he flipped that switch, 262 00:12:15,430 --> 00:12:17,562 it told us that we had wasted our time. 263 00:12:26,180 --> 00:12:27,442 - Were there other moments where you felt 264 00:12:27,485 --> 00:12:29,009 like there was hope? 265 00:12:29,052 --> 00:12:32,012 - He had told the attorneys that he would surrender 266 00:12:32,055 --> 00:12:34,797 once he had an opportunity to prepare his manuscript 267 00:12:34,841 --> 00:12:37,800 with his disclosing of the Seven Seals 268 00:12:37,844 --> 00:12:40,150 and prove that he was the Lamb of God. 269 00:12:40,194 --> 00:12:43,197 - All I care about in our judgment is one thing: 270 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,766 do you want to know the Seven Seals? 271 00:12:46,809 --> 00:12:48,637 Do you want to know where they are? 272 00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:50,726 - But we were somewhat skeptical. 273 00:12:50,770 --> 00:12:53,642 That was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back, 274 00:12:53,685 --> 00:12:56,297 because from then on, it was a trust issue. 275 00:12:56,340 --> 00:12:58,429 - When did you guys start hearing 276 00:12:58,473 --> 00:13:02,259 that we were going to arrest and rescue? 277 00:13:02,303 --> 00:13:04,261 - I was on one of those 24-hour off. 278 00:13:04,305 --> 00:13:05,654 - Yeah. - And so 279 00:13:05,697 --> 00:13:07,482 I was at the hotel room, 280 00:13:07,525 --> 00:13:09,527 and another operator came and said, 281 00:13:09,571 --> 00:13:11,921 "Hey, we're doing it in the morning at 0600." 282 00:13:11,965 --> 00:13:14,402 And I'm like, "Are you serious?" 283 00:13:14,445 --> 00:13:16,839 - We could rescue the kids, get them out, 284 00:13:16,883 --> 00:13:18,449 put Koresh where he belonged, in prison, 285 00:13:18,493 --> 00:13:19,842 and do what we came there to do. 286 00:13:19,886 --> 00:13:22,062 - Yeah, and bring those to justice 287 00:13:22,105 --> 00:13:23,846 who had killed four ATF agents. - Exactly. 288 00:13:23,890 --> 00:13:24,978 - Start the process. 289 00:13:25,021 --> 00:13:26,109 - Ultimately, that was 290 00:13:26,153 --> 00:13:28,329 what the attorney general approved. 291 00:13:32,463 --> 00:13:37,164 ♪ 292 00:13:37,207 --> 00:13:39,253 - And take me from there, what you guys do. 293 00:13:39,296 --> 00:13:40,558 - It would have been probably, 294 00:13:40,602 --> 00:13:42,299 you know, 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning. 295 00:13:42,343 --> 00:13:46,651 And basically, the negotiators had announced to the Davidians 296 00:13:46,695 --> 00:13:49,176 that, "Look, there's gonna be a gas insertion." 297 00:13:59,447 --> 00:14:00,840 - "You're gonna want to come out of there 298 00:14:00,883 --> 00:14:02,667 "because it's gonna get very uncomfortable. 299 00:14:02,711 --> 00:14:04,147 "It's not gonna be good for the children 300 00:14:04,191 --> 00:14:05,845 to be exposed to that environment." 301 00:14:05,888 --> 00:14:07,890 And so 6:00 a.m. rolled around, 302 00:14:07,934 --> 00:14:11,502 and we all began the procession 303 00:14:11,546 --> 00:14:14,897 in the Bradleys and the M-88 tanks. 304 00:14:24,428 --> 00:14:26,778 - And the tanks, which had been configured 305 00:14:26,822 --> 00:14:30,130 so that they could crush a hole in the exterior wall 306 00:14:30,173 --> 00:14:32,959 and then spray gas into the compound. 307 00:14:38,355 --> 00:14:42,316 - Sure enough, we literally hadn't crossed the threshold, 308 00:14:42,359 --> 00:14:44,971 and an operator from one of the sniper positions 309 00:14:45,014 --> 00:14:46,711 said "compromise." 310 00:14:46,755 --> 00:14:48,757 And "compromise" means that the Davidians 311 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,064 were in the tower with long weapons, 312 00:14:51,107 --> 00:14:53,022 and they were opening fire on us. 313 00:14:53,066 --> 00:14:54,632 [gunfire] 314 00:14:54,676 --> 00:14:58,027 Now we're under fire, and that meant, you know, 315 00:14:58,071 --> 00:15:00,334 our "rules of engagement" were gonna accelerate. 316 00:15:00,377 --> 00:15:04,033 Basically, any time a sniper called out and said, 317 00:15:04,077 --> 00:15:07,254 "There's a Davidian in this window with a long weapon," 318 00:15:07,297 --> 00:15:09,517 then I would fire gas rounds into that window 319 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,214 to try to run him out of there. 320 00:15:11,258 --> 00:15:14,739 - Sorry, in the sniper positions, you guys are... 321 00:15:14,783 --> 00:15:18,221 - We were covering, 322 00:15:18,265 --> 00:15:22,356 but we couldn't identify targets and be certain 323 00:15:22,399 --> 00:15:25,794 that they didn't have a child underneath them as cover 324 00:15:25,837 --> 00:15:28,318 or some other human being that was innocent. 325 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,018 We wanted to be able to hit the target. 326 00:15:32,061 --> 00:15:33,454 So we couldn't fire. We wouldn't fire. 327 00:15:33,497 --> 00:15:36,283 We didn't fire even though we received gunfire 328 00:15:36,326 --> 00:15:38,850 the entire morning all around us. 329 00:15:40,765 --> 00:15:44,508 - The negotiators is reaching out to the Davidians, 330 00:15:44,552 --> 00:15:45,901 saying, you know, "Please come out"... 331 00:15:49,426 --> 00:15:51,254 - Thinking that maybe they'll start to file out 332 00:15:51,298 --> 00:15:53,343 through the doors and some of the openings 333 00:15:53,387 --> 00:15:55,345 made by the tanks. 334 00:15:55,389 --> 00:15:57,782 But there's nothing, no response. 335 00:15:57,826 --> 00:15:59,523 Nobody's coming out. Nothing. 336 00:16:08,576 --> 00:16:10,360 - Charlie, what's happening at this point? 337 00:16:10,404 --> 00:16:12,058 We've moved the Bradleys forward. 338 00:16:12,101 --> 00:16:13,668 We're pumping gas in. 339 00:16:13,711 --> 00:16:16,453 - The gas is ineffective. 340 00:16:16,497 --> 00:16:19,021 Windy day. Place was a barn. 341 00:16:19,065 --> 00:16:21,893 Windows open. Gas was just blowing. 342 00:16:21,937 --> 00:16:23,504 The wind was blowing it right out the windows. 343 00:16:23,547 --> 00:16:24,766 They had masks. I don't even know 344 00:16:24,809 --> 00:16:26,376 if they needed them, to be honest with you. 345 00:16:26,420 --> 00:16:28,726 It wasn't affecting them. They were still shooting at us. 346 00:16:28,770 --> 00:16:31,686 They were not responding the way we had hoped 347 00:16:31,729 --> 00:16:33,862 they would respond by letting the kids out. 348 00:16:36,082 --> 00:16:39,389 - Then I see on the red and white corner, a wisp of smoke. 349 00:16:43,393 --> 00:16:47,093 Another operator calls out that he sees a wisp of smoke. 350 00:16:47,136 --> 00:16:48,572 I can't see that corner. - Yeah. 351 00:16:48,616 --> 00:16:51,184 - He can't see mine. The compound is too big. 352 00:16:51,227 --> 00:16:54,056 So therefore, I know, OK, there's got to be 353 00:16:54,100 --> 00:16:56,102 two "wisps of smoke." - Yeah. 354 00:16:56,145 --> 00:16:58,147 - That means two fires have been set. 355 00:16:58,191 --> 00:17:01,933 And I'm like, they're starting fires in there. 356 00:17:01,977 --> 00:17:07,983 ♪ 357 00:17:08,027 --> 00:17:09,202 - I had a pretty unique perspective 358 00:17:09,244 --> 00:17:11,073 because I was in an angle 359 00:17:11,117 --> 00:17:14,468 where I could see most of the structure. 360 00:17:14,511 --> 00:17:17,645 And I start seeing puffs of smoke, puffs of smoke, 361 00:17:17,688 --> 00:17:20,082 puffs of smoke in three different places 362 00:17:20,126 --> 00:17:23,607 simultaneously along the building. 363 00:17:23,651 --> 00:17:27,394 And the next thing you know, with that wind... 364 00:17:27,436 --> 00:17:29,570 - We can see flames from two miles away. 365 00:17:29,613 --> 00:17:31,833 Now the flames... oh, my goodness. 366 00:17:33,748 --> 00:17:35,315 - And we wanted to get out. 367 00:17:35,358 --> 00:17:36,838 We said, "We've got to go get those kids." 368 00:17:36,881 --> 00:17:38,970 And we started to, but we could feel the rounds 369 00:17:39,014 --> 00:17:41,669 impacting the sandbags and hear them going off. 370 00:17:41,712 --> 00:17:43,366 We knew it was a death sentence to do that. 371 00:17:43,410 --> 00:17:45,151 [gunfire] 372 00:17:45,194 --> 00:17:48,110 [sirens wailing] 373 00:17:54,595 --> 00:17:58,120 - And the fire has started to consume the building, 374 00:17:58,164 --> 00:18:00,514 and I see a woman standing on the second floor. 375 00:18:04,213 --> 00:18:05,519 And then she jumps. 376 00:18:08,696 --> 00:18:10,785 And then she turns around and walks back in 377 00:18:10,828 --> 00:18:13,309 to the first floor of the compound, back into the flames. 378 00:18:17,226 --> 00:18:19,315 I climb back into the back of the Bradley. 379 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,013 I tell the guy who's driving, I said, "Let's go over there. 380 00:18:22,057 --> 00:18:24,755 "I'm gonna see if I can get in there and get her. 381 00:18:24,799 --> 00:18:27,236 And maybe she's with the children." 382 00:18:33,199 --> 00:18:37,986 And I find her laying on the concrete floor facedown. 383 00:18:38,029 --> 00:18:41,120 And I shake her and identify myself. 384 00:18:41,163 --> 00:18:43,339 And I said, "Listen, where are the children?" 385 00:18:43,383 --> 00:18:46,081 And she just was nonresponsive. 386 00:18:46,125 --> 00:18:48,562 And I grab her, and I say, 387 00:18:48,605 --> 00:18:51,042 "Look, if we don't get out of here, we're gonna die as well." 388 00:18:54,220 --> 00:18:57,788 I'm having to drag her over the burning debris, 389 00:18:57,832 --> 00:19:01,401 back out to the back of the Bradley, 390 00:19:01,444 --> 00:19:03,577 and lay her on the back. 391 00:19:05,666 --> 00:19:07,102 I'm still asking her, "Where are the children?" 392 00:19:07,146 --> 00:19:09,278 She never does respond. 393 00:19:12,281 --> 00:19:15,284 - I was pissed 'cause I'm like, well, those kids aren't out. 394 00:19:15,328 --> 00:19:17,634 I'm praying now that there's a bunker 395 00:19:17,678 --> 00:19:19,288 or a tunnel or someplace safe. 396 00:19:26,817 --> 00:19:29,820 - As many as 86 people, including 17 children, 397 00:19:29,864 --> 00:19:31,039 are thought to have died 398 00:19:31,082 --> 00:19:33,128 in yesterday's inferno outside Waco. 399 00:19:33,172 --> 00:19:35,565 Today, investigators will search the ruins 400 00:19:35,609 --> 00:19:38,786 of the cult compound for remains of the victims. 401 00:19:46,881 --> 00:19:49,057 - And after the fires had kind of turned 402 00:19:49,100 --> 00:19:52,452 to just, you know, smoldering embers, 403 00:19:52,495 --> 00:19:54,410 I got tasked with being the first 404 00:19:54,454 --> 00:19:58,066 to go into that first-level concrete bunker. 405 00:20:00,503 --> 00:20:03,071 That was hell on Earth, 406 00:20:03,114 --> 00:20:05,029 a hell created by David Koresh. 407 00:20:07,902 --> 00:20:11,862 And then, in a pile, you see a... 408 00:20:11,906 --> 00:20:14,387 you know, sort of bone fragment or skull. 409 00:20:19,087 --> 00:20:22,525 It was like 40 children and, you know, their mothers. 410 00:20:25,136 --> 00:20:26,616 - It looked like a lot of the children 411 00:20:26,660 --> 00:20:29,924 had died in their mother's arms. 412 00:20:29,967 --> 00:20:31,491 The forensics afterwards, we were told 413 00:20:31,534 --> 00:20:33,797 that some of the children had been killed by their mothers 414 00:20:33,841 --> 00:20:36,931 to escape the hell of dying in a fire like that. 415 00:20:41,152 --> 00:20:43,503 All we cared about were those kids. 416 00:20:43,546 --> 00:20:47,246 Once we knew they weren't coming out and they were dead, 417 00:20:47,289 --> 00:20:48,856 we were crushed. 418 00:21:01,651 --> 00:21:04,915 - This tragedy that's beyond even articulation 419 00:21:04,959 --> 00:21:07,048 is solely because of David Koresh. 420 00:21:07,091 --> 00:21:08,005 That's it. 421 00:21:12,706 --> 00:21:14,664 - The guy didn't want to come out 422 00:21:14,708 --> 00:21:16,318 because he was a pedophile. 423 00:21:16,362 --> 00:21:18,973 He had sexually assaulted underage girls... 424 00:21:19,016 --> 00:21:22,106 14, 13... had children with them. 425 00:21:22,150 --> 00:21:26,328 And every child of his was a living, breathing, 426 00:21:26,372 --> 00:21:29,331 walking piece of evidence against him in court. 427 00:21:29,375 --> 00:21:31,333 And he would have gone to jail for a very long time 428 00:21:31,377 --> 00:21:33,074 for child molestation, and he knew that. 429 00:21:56,663 --> 00:22:01,668 - The record of the Waco incident documents mistakes. 430 00:22:01,711 --> 00:22:05,454 What the record from Waco does not evidence, however, 431 00:22:05,498 --> 00:22:08,196 is any improper motive or intent 432 00:22:08,239 --> 00:22:10,938 on the part of law enforcement. 433 00:22:10,981 --> 00:22:15,029 David Koresh and the Davidians set fire to themselves 434 00:22:15,072 --> 00:22:16,813 and committed suicide. 435 00:22:16,857 --> 00:22:19,816 The government did not do that. 436 00:22:27,084 --> 00:22:30,044 [somber music] 437 00:22:30,087 --> 00:22:36,964 ♪ 438 00:22:40,576 --> 00:22:42,578 - How does this case rank in your career, 439 00:22:42,622 --> 00:22:44,537 and what are some of the thoughts you have? 440 00:22:44,580 --> 00:22:46,582 - I had a long career, 31 years. 441 00:22:46,626 --> 00:22:48,976 I enjoyed pretty much every minute of it. 442 00:22:49,019 --> 00:22:52,414 This was one of the most distasteful aspects, of course. 443 00:22:52,458 --> 00:22:55,112 And the reason it still sticks in my throat 444 00:22:55,156 --> 00:22:58,420 is the kids 445 00:22:58,464 --> 00:23:00,291 who had no choice in the matter 446 00:23:00,335 --> 00:23:02,903 and were essentially murdered by their biological father. 447 00:23:07,386 --> 00:23:09,300 And the four ATF agents... 448 00:23:16,133 --> 00:23:17,396 Nobody was really held accountable 449 00:23:17,439 --> 00:23:19,136 for their deaths, their murders. 450 00:23:19,180 --> 00:23:22,836 I've not spoken about this in over 30 years almost. 451 00:23:22,879 --> 00:23:25,099 It just breaks my heart, you know? 452 00:23:25,142 --> 00:23:26,927 - Yeah, I agree. - Anyway... 453 00:23:26,970 --> 00:23:28,450 - I think there were definitely 454 00:23:28,494 --> 00:23:31,888 some lessons learned by the FBI. 455 00:23:31,932 --> 00:23:35,370 And one of the big ones was to have a better relationship 456 00:23:35,414 --> 00:23:38,417 between the tactical side of the house and the negotiators. 457 00:23:38,460 --> 00:23:41,376 And I do think that was accomplished. 458 00:23:41,420 --> 00:23:43,552 Something that I think was not accomplished 459 00:23:43,596 --> 00:23:47,164 was how to deal with a cult. 460 00:23:47,208 --> 00:23:49,036 - "Thou shall break them with a rod of iron. 461 00:23:49,079 --> 00:23:51,821 Thou shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." 462 00:23:51,865 --> 00:23:53,823 The guy is tough. 463 00:23:53,867 --> 00:23:58,132 He's got more than guns. He's got God. 464 00:23:58,175 --> 00:24:00,743 - The bottom line is, there was one person 465 00:24:00,787 --> 00:24:03,267 that could have changed the outcome of it 466 00:24:03,311 --> 00:24:04,921 but chose not to do so, 467 00:24:04,965 --> 00:24:08,011 and that was David Koresh. 468 00:24:08,055 --> 00:24:11,188 And until people stop following false prophets, 469 00:24:11,232 --> 00:24:12,146 this will happen again. 470 00:24:20,284 --> 00:24:23,244 [dramatic music] 471 00:24:23,287 --> 00:24:30,207 ♪