1 00:00:03,655 --> 00:00:05,265 [gunfire] 2 00:00:05,309 --> 00:00:08,790 - In Waco, Texas, four law enforcement agents are dead 3 00:00:08,834 --> 00:00:10,270 and at least 12 injured 4 00:00:10,314 --> 00:00:13,752 in a shootout with a religious cult. 5 00:00:13,795 --> 00:00:15,797 - Through the beginning negotiations, 6 00:00:15,841 --> 00:00:16,624 you could hear rounds going off. 7 00:00:23,327 --> 00:00:25,416 [gunfire] 8 00:00:25,459 --> 00:00:27,113 - We wanted to get the kids out of there. 9 00:00:27,157 --> 00:00:29,637 - Cult leader David Koresh raised hopes 10 00:00:29,681 --> 00:00:32,074 that a peaceful end might be on the horizon. 11 00:00:32,118 --> 00:00:34,425 - He declared that he had heard from God 12 00:00:34,468 --> 00:00:36,862 that now is not the time to surrender. 13 00:00:36,905 --> 00:00:39,691 - It makes nobody's business whether we have a gun or not. 14 00:00:39,734 --> 00:00:41,649 - This is every law enforcement's worst nightmare. 15 00:00:41,693 --> 00:00:45,131 [sirens wailing] 16 00:00:45,175 --> 00:00:48,308 - The dangerous standoff drags on. 17 00:00:48,352 --> 00:00:50,136 - It was like a pressure, like a balloon. 18 00:00:50,180 --> 00:00:53,226 And every day, it gets more and more dangerous. 19 00:00:53,270 --> 00:00:55,010 - These are powerful signs of the government 20 00:00:55,054 --> 00:00:56,969 taking control of the situation. 21 00:00:57,012 --> 00:00:58,840 - There was one person 22 00:00:58,884 --> 00:01:01,365 that could have avoided this outcome... 23 00:01:07,806 --> 00:01:09,503 - And that was David Koresh. 24 00:01:09,547 --> 00:01:12,202 - If you're a true Christian and you believe the truth 25 00:01:12,245 --> 00:01:14,160 and you know the truth, the truth will set you free. 26 00:01:14,204 --> 00:01:17,859 - And the fire had started to consume the building. 27 00:01:17,903 --> 00:01:21,428 And I see a woman standing on the second floor. 28 00:01:21,472 --> 00:01:22,342 And then she jumped. 29 00:01:25,737 --> 00:01:27,217 [dramatic music] 30 00:01:27,260 --> 00:01:30,002 - In the FBI, we make a lot of headlines. 31 00:01:30,045 --> 00:01:33,223 ♪ 32 00:01:33,266 --> 00:01:34,920 Drug busts, 33 00:01:34,963 --> 00:01:37,357 mob stings, 34 00:01:37,401 --> 00:01:39,576 terrorist takedowns. 35 00:01:39,620 --> 00:01:41,405 - Get down! Get down! 36 00:01:41,448 --> 00:01:44,103 - We understand why people want to tell stories about us. 37 00:01:44,147 --> 00:01:45,147 - Mark it. 38 00:01:45,191 --> 00:01:46,627 - Freeze! - FBI. 39 00:01:46,671 --> 00:01:48,629 - FBI! - Action! 40 00:01:48,673 --> 00:01:51,763 - But they don't know the half of it. 41 00:01:51,806 --> 00:01:53,939 What really goes down, 42 00:01:53,982 --> 00:01:56,201 we save that for each other 43 00:01:56,246 --> 00:01:58,421 when we're talking agent to agent. 44 00:01:58,465 --> 00:02:01,425 ♪ 45 00:02:01,468 --> 00:02:04,254 This is "FBI True." 46 00:02:11,304 --> 00:02:13,959 - Cult leader David Koresh raised hopes 47 00:02:14,002 --> 00:02:16,788 that a peaceful end might be on the horizon. 48 00:02:16,831 --> 00:02:18,790 He promised to give up if authorities would 49 00:02:18,833 --> 00:02:21,619 allow a radio station to play an audio cassette 50 00:02:21,662 --> 00:02:23,838 in which he explained his religious views. 51 00:02:23,882 --> 00:02:25,971 - So here we are, at this point. 52 00:02:26,014 --> 00:02:30,105 You know, hostage negotiators have spoke to Koresh. 53 00:02:30,149 --> 00:02:32,107 There was a plan for him to give up. 54 00:02:33,544 --> 00:02:37,243 - I, David Koresh, agree, upon the broadcasting of this tape, 55 00:02:37,287 --> 00:02:41,987 to come out peacefully with all the people. 56 00:02:42,030 --> 00:02:43,858 - He doesn't. He blatantly lies to us. 57 00:02:43,902 --> 00:02:46,034 We now know that he's untrustworthy and he's a liar. 58 00:02:51,649 --> 00:02:54,259 - At this point in the investigation, 59 00:02:54,304 --> 00:02:55,609 what do we know now? 60 00:02:55,653 --> 00:02:58,656 - Well, we know we have a murderer 61 00:02:58,699 --> 00:03:00,832 who killed four federal agents without remorse. 62 00:03:05,924 --> 00:03:07,273 - We know we have a child molester, 63 00:03:07,317 --> 00:03:09,623 because we have a slew of people coming out 64 00:03:09,667 --> 00:03:12,757 and saying he's had sex with 14- and 13-year-old girls, 65 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,368 and the kids are there, in the compound with him. 66 00:03:15,412 --> 00:03:18,066 - A lot of beliefs people have may seem abnormal 67 00:03:18,110 --> 00:03:19,590 or strange to other people. 68 00:03:19,633 --> 00:03:22,984 That doesn't mean that it's not right, though. 69 00:03:23,028 --> 00:03:26,336 - He's demonstrated horrific faith, 70 00:03:26,379 --> 00:03:27,989 and he's not to be trusted. 71 00:03:28,033 --> 00:03:29,948 We need to kick the can down the road. 72 00:03:29,991 --> 00:03:32,603 - The dangerous standoff drags on. 73 00:03:32,646 --> 00:03:36,302 Cult members remain sealed inside the compound, 74 00:03:36,346 --> 00:03:40,698 and no one knows when or how this will all end. 75 00:03:40,741 --> 00:03:44,310 [tense music] 76 00:03:44,354 --> 00:03:47,879 ♪ 77 00:03:47,922 --> 00:03:51,012 - So when we talk about Koresh's wives 78 00:03:51,056 --> 00:03:53,754 and his underage "wives"... 79 00:03:53,798 --> 00:03:56,975 - How many wives do you have? - One. 80 00:03:57,018 --> 00:03:59,238 - One wife? - One wife. 81 00:03:59,282 --> 00:04:00,805 - Have you committed-- - I've always had-- 82 00:04:00,848 --> 00:04:02,763 have I committed adultery, is what you're fixing to ask? 83 00:04:02,807 --> 00:04:04,156 - Have you committed adultery? 84 00:04:04,199 --> 00:04:07,551 - [laughs] No, I don't commit adultery. 85 00:04:07,594 --> 00:04:08,987 - What's your understanding of that? 86 00:04:09,030 --> 00:04:10,467 - There was only one that 87 00:04:10,510 --> 00:04:12,164 he was legally married to, and that was Rachel, 88 00:04:12,207 --> 00:04:15,689 and she was 16 at the time that they were married. 89 00:04:15,733 --> 00:04:17,952 And the reason why that was legal 90 00:04:17,995 --> 00:04:20,259 is because her dad signed a agreement 91 00:04:20,303 --> 00:04:22,957 to allow her to marry him. 92 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:24,742 - And what is your understanding 93 00:04:24,785 --> 00:04:28,659 of some of his youngest "brides," in his eyes? 94 00:04:32,402 --> 00:04:33,533 - Bye. 95 00:04:37,276 --> 00:04:39,365 - God was telling him to marry them. 96 00:04:39,409 --> 00:04:44,370 And then his belief system was that if he had sex with them, 97 00:04:44,414 --> 00:04:46,067 then that meant they were married. 98 00:04:46,111 --> 00:04:48,374 It's not like they had to have some sort of formal ceremony. 99 00:04:48,418 --> 00:04:55,425 ♪ 100 00:04:56,034 --> 00:05:00,908 Raping these young girls, that then made them his wife. 101 00:05:00,952 --> 00:05:02,997 And that also included 102 00:05:03,041 --> 00:05:06,697 any of the women that joined the cult 103 00:05:06,740 --> 00:05:09,830 who were already married to other men. 104 00:05:09,874 --> 00:05:12,790 They surrendered their wives to Koresh. 105 00:05:12,833 --> 00:05:15,183 And they not only surrendered their wives, 106 00:05:15,227 --> 00:05:19,231 but any children that they already had with their wives 107 00:05:19,274 --> 00:05:21,929 became Koresh's children. 108 00:05:21,973 --> 00:05:25,019 So all children were his children. 109 00:05:28,371 --> 00:05:29,850 All women were his wives. 110 00:05:33,332 --> 00:05:36,204 - And the youngest age of one of his brides? 111 00:05:36,248 --> 00:05:37,423 - Ten. - Ten years old? 112 00:05:37,467 --> 00:05:38,511 - Yeah. 113 00:05:46,954 --> 00:05:52,264 ♪ 114 00:05:52,307 --> 00:05:53,787 - Law-enforcement officers described 115 00:05:53,831 --> 00:05:55,963 the present situation as static. 116 00:05:56,007 --> 00:05:58,313 They say they want to end this confrontation 117 00:05:58,357 --> 00:06:00,533 without bloodshed, and they are willing 118 00:06:00,577 --> 00:06:02,361 to wait as long as it takes 119 00:06:02,405 --> 00:06:06,365 as long as the delay does not endanger anyone's life. 120 00:06:06,409 --> 00:06:09,586 - So now we're at day 25. - Right. 121 00:06:09,629 --> 00:06:12,240 - Koresh has lied to us over and over and over again. 122 00:06:12,284 --> 00:06:13,981 What are you thinking? Ten more days? 123 00:06:14,025 --> 00:06:15,896 What's the passage of time feel like for you at this point? 124 00:06:15,940 --> 00:06:17,898 - Groundhog Day. 125 00:06:17,942 --> 00:06:22,512 - It became almost, you know, complacent. 126 00:06:22,555 --> 00:06:25,689 Day after day, we'd ride by the front of the compound, 127 00:06:25,732 --> 00:06:27,821 and sometimes Davidians would be waving at us 128 00:06:27,865 --> 00:06:28,735 through the window. 129 00:06:31,390 --> 00:06:32,478 - They knew they were running the show, 130 00:06:32,522 --> 00:06:33,871 it felt like, you know? 131 00:06:33,914 --> 00:06:36,003 And it was like a pressure, like a balloon. 132 00:06:36,047 --> 00:06:37,527 And every day this thing goes on, 133 00:06:37,570 --> 00:06:39,354 the more pressure gets in that balloon. 134 00:06:39,398 --> 00:06:41,835 And it gets more and more dangerous. 135 00:06:41,879 --> 00:06:44,011 Koresh was always trying to do little things 136 00:06:44,055 --> 00:06:46,013 to show that he was still in charge. 137 00:06:46,057 --> 00:06:48,886 And he would do stuff. Like, at 2:00 in the morning, 138 00:06:48,929 --> 00:06:52,367 he would start with his guitar, serenading us essentially. 139 00:07:08,209 --> 00:07:10,211 - I'm sitting there watching the compound, 140 00:07:10,255 --> 00:07:11,822 and I see Koresh sitting up 141 00:07:11,865 --> 00:07:14,651 on the second story on a windowsill. 142 00:07:14,694 --> 00:07:17,131 And he's playing his electric guitar. 143 00:07:17,175 --> 00:07:20,308 And he's intentionally showing the wound to his wrist 144 00:07:20,352 --> 00:07:22,528 and the wound to his side, 145 00:07:22,572 --> 00:07:24,965 trying to compare himself to Jesus Christ 146 00:07:25,009 --> 00:07:28,578 and the crucifixion. 147 00:07:28,621 --> 00:07:30,710 Then stops and eats a little bit of ramen noodles 148 00:07:30,754 --> 00:07:32,712 and drinks some Juicy Juice. 149 00:07:32,756 --> 00:07:34,409 It's like, "I can stay here forever. 150 00:07:34,452 --> 00:07:37,108 This is my kingdom, and I'm the king." 151 00:07:37,151 --> 00:07:40,415 [rock music] 152 00:07:47,074 --> 00:07:48,902 - What were some of the distraction tactics? 153 00:07:48,946 --> 00:07:50,338 With the music? 154 00:07:50,382 --> 00:07:52,123 And what kind of sounds is being thrown out 155 00:07:52,166 --> 00:07:53,777 to put the pressure back on them? 156 00:07:53,820 --> 00:07:56,257 - I mean, they were playing some pretty interesting songs, 157 00:07:56,301 --> 00:07:57,998 like Nancy Sinatra. 158 00:07:58,042 --> 00:07:59,304 [Nancy Sinatra's "These Boots Are Made for Walking"] 159 00:07:59,347 --> 00:08:00,740 - ♪ You keep playing 160 00:08:00,784 --> 00:08:02,699 ♪ Where you shouldn't be playing ♪ 161 00:08:02,742 --> 00:08:04,918 ♪ 162 00:08:04,962 --> 00:08:07,747 - And then, you know, rabbits being slaughtered. 163 00:08:07,791 --> 00:08:10,663 [foghorn blaring, dolphin chittering] 164 00:08:10,707 --> 00:08:12,317 I mean, that's always fun. 165 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,624 - Chanting monks. - Chanting monks. 166 00:08:14,667 --> 00:08:18,932 [chanting] 167 00:08:18,976 --> 00:08:20,586 I mean, I don't know where they came up with this stuff. 168 00:08:20,630 --> 00:08:22,153 We're sitting back in our position, 169 00:08:22,196 --> 00:08:24,764 listening to it and going, "OK, that would keep me awake." 170 00:08:24,808 --> 00:08:27,114 - Who set up the speakers for all this? 171 00:08:27,158 --> 00:08:29,595 - We did. HRT did. - Yeah, the HRT guys. 172 00:08:29,639 --> 00:08:31,118 - So when you guys are setting up the speakers, 173 00:08:31,162 --> 00:08:32,250 what are you thinking at this point? 174 00:08:32,293 --> 00:08:34,121 - "Don't get shot." [laughter] 175 00:08:34,164 --> 00:08:36,036 - Oh, so you were having to go right out front 176 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:37,472 and expose yourself? - Yes. 177 00:08:37,515 --> 00:08:38,517 - I'm thinking, "Charlie, cover me 178 00:08:38,561 --> 00:08:39,474 while we do this." - Yeah. 179 00:08:39,518 --> 00:08:43,477 [tense music] 180 00:08:43,522 --> 00:08:45,524 - During the day, there were military 181 00:08:45,568 --> 00:08:47,091 and medical helicopter flyovers 182 00:08:47,134 --> 00:08:49,615 and tank maneuvers on the compound grounds. 183 00:08:49,659 --> 00:08:51,574 These are powerful signs of the government 184 00:08:51,617 --> 00:08:53,793 taking control of the situation. 185 00:08:53,837 --> 00:08:56,143 Federal agents want David Koresh and his followers 186 00:08:56,187 --> 00:08:58,929 to get the message. 187 00:08:58,972 --> 00:09:01,409 - What else did we do to apply some pressure? 188 00:09:01,453 --> 00:09:03,455 - Power had been cut off. - Yeah. 189 00:09:03,498 --> 00:09:04,717 - How long was the power cut off? 190 00:09:04,761 --> 00:09:06,545 - Just almost the whole time. 191 00:09:06,589 --> 00:09:08,329 - That's typical in barricaded subject situations, 192 00:09:08,373 --> 00:09:09,330 as you know. - Yes. 193 00:09:09,374 --> 00:09:10,593 - That's not an unusual tactic. 194 00:09:10,636 --> 00:09:12,899 - We are trying to reinforce to them 195 00:09:12,943 --> 00:09:14,901 that we are in charge of the situation, 196 00:09:14,945 --> 00:09:16,337 that the compound is under 197 00:09:16,381 --> 00:09:18,339 the complete control of the government. 198 00:09:18,383 --> 00:09:19,732 - Right, they're gonna cut the power, 199 00:09:19,776 --> 00:09:21,212 they're gonna cut the phones. - Yeah. 200 00:09:21,255 --> 00:09:22,387 - They're gonna cut lights. - Make sure 201 00:09:22,430 --> 00:09:23,780 they don't have gas. - Right. 202 00:09:23,823 --> 00:09:25,216 - And then on top of that, they had no plumbing, 203 00:09:25,259 --> 00:09:29,133 so they were living in pretty primitive conditions. 204 00:09:29,176 --> 00:09:31,178 And then you add sleep deprivation to that, 205 00:09:31,222 --> 00:09:32,789 and, you know, you're making it 206 00:09:32,832 --> 00:09:34,833 a pretty miserable type of environment 207 00:09:34,878 --> 00:09:36,488 that hopefully, they're gonna try to come out. 208 00:09:36,531 --> 00:09:41,580 ♪ 209 00:09:41,624 --> 00:09:42,755 - Were there other moments 210 00:09:42,799 --> 00:09:44,670 where you felt like there was hope? 211 00:09:44,714 --> 00:09:46,803 - Well, there were a couple of times that they decided 212 00:09:46,846 --> 00:09:49,588 they needed to try to go up and do a face-to-face, 213 00:09:49,632 --> 00:09:52,286 with Koresh preferably, 214 00:09:52,330 --> 00:09:54,071 but it ended up being with Steve Schneider. 215 00:09:56,900 --> 00:09:59,076 We developed an approach 216 00:09:59,119 --> 00:10:02,993 to where we were going to try to convince Steve Schneider 217 00:10:03,036 --> 00:10:05,169 to break from Koresh. 218 00:10:05,212 --> 00:10:08,651 - He is like the aide-de-camp to David Koresh. 219 00:10:08,694 --> 00:10:11,741 And David Koresh had taken his wife, 220 00:10:11,784 --> 00:10:13,525 impregnated her... - Correct. 221 00:10:13,568 --> 00:10:15,266 - And had a baby with her. - Correct. 222 00:10:15,309 --> 00:10:18,051 - So what possibly could you say to Schneider 223 00:10:18,095 --> 00:10:22,360 to have him break from the bad messiah? 224 00:10:22,403 --> 00:10:25,885 - Well, we knew that Koresh had convinced the men 225 00:10:25,929 --> 00:10:28,540 that they needed to give up their wives 226 00:10:28,583 --> 00:10:30,150 so that they could all become his wives 227 00:10:30,194 --> 00:10:32,065 and have his children. 228 00:10:32,109 --> 00:10:33,763 And we knew that Steve Schneider's wife 229 00:10:33,806 --> 00:10:36,330 was one of those and that she had had a baby by him. 230 00:10:36,374 --> 00:10:38,028 - Huh. - What is your name? 231 00:10:38,071 --> 00:10:40,726 - My name is Judy Schneider-Koresh, 232 00:10:40,770 --> 00:10:42,380 and this is my daughter, Mynah. 233 00:10:48,778 --> 00:10:52,042 - And so we decided that our best shot at that 234 00:10:52,085 --> 00:10:53,913 was to try to go after Schneider 235 00:10:53,957 --> 00:10:57,569 and really get him upset about that aspect of it... 236 00:11:00,441 --> 00:11:02,835 - And really appeal to his emotional side 237 00:11:02,879 --> 00:11:05,751 and to his side as a husband 238 00:11:05,795 --> 00:11:09,146 and see if we could get him really, really angry 239 00:11:09,189 --> 00:11:11,888 to the point of where he would break away from Koresh. 240 00:11:11,931 --> 00:11:13,759 And so we went at him. 241 00:11:13,803 --> 00:11:16,240 We told him, you know, "How does it feel 242 00:11:16,283 --> 00:11:18,111 "knowing that the woman that you love 243 00:11:18,155 --> 00:11:19,591 "and your wife for several years 244 00:11:19,634 --> 00:11:22,463 "is no longer available to you 245 00:11:22,507 --> 00:11:25,075 "and really is not your wife anymore 246 00:11:25,118 --> 00:11:27,425 "and that he has taken her as his wife? 247 00:11:27,468 --> 00:11:30,297 "And in fact, how does it feel, you living there, 248 00:11:30,341 --> 00:11:31,734 "seeing that baby every day, 249 00:11:31,777 --> 00:11:33,997 knowing that that baby is his blood?" 250 00:11:42,657 --> 00:11:44,964 - And we kept hammering him with that, 251 00:11:45,008 --> 00:11:48,185 and he got pretty upset, 252 00:11:48,228 --> 00:11:51,797 because he knew what we were saying was definitely something 253 00:11:51,841 --> 00:11:53,799 that had been bothering him for a long time. 254 00:11:53,843 --> 00:11:56,367 - So man to man, you were able to tickle that man gene 255 00:11:56,410 --> 00:11:58,935 a little bit, like, "Yo, brother, that's not normal." 256 00:11:58,978 --> 00:12:01,546 - Correct. And we tickled it pretty hard. 257 00:12:01,589 --> 00:12:05,463 You know, he got upset, and then a very quick, 258 00:12:05,506 --> 00:12:08,901 complete reversal, like he flipped a switch. 259 00:12:08,945 --> 00:12:11,817 He went back to being the Steve Schneider, 260 00:12:11,861 --> 00:12:13,427 number two guy to David Koresh. 261 00:12:13,471 --> 00:12:15,429 And when he flipped that switch, 262 00:12:15,473 --> 00:12:17,605 it told us that we had wasted our time. 263 00:12:26,223 --> 00:12:27,485 - Were there other moments where you felt 264 00:12:27,528 --> 00:12:29,052 like there was hope? 265 00:12:29,095 --> 00:12:32,055 - He had told the attorneys that he would surrender 266 00:12:32,098 --> 00:12:34,840 once he had an opportunity to prepare his manuscript 267 00:12:34,884 --> 00:12:37,843 with his disclosing of the Seven Seals 268 00:12:37,887 --> 00:12:40,193 and prove that he was the Lamb of God. 269 00:12:40,237 --> 00:12:43,240 - All I care about in our judgment is one thing: 270 00:12:43,283 --> 00:12:46,809 do you want to know the Seven Seals? 271 00:12:46,852 --> 00:12:48,680 Do you want to know where they are? 272 00:12:48,723 --> 00:12:50,769 - But we were somewhat skeptical. 273 00:12:50,813 --> 00:12:53,685 That was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back, 274 00:12:53,728 --> 00:12:56,340 because from then on, it was a trust issue. 275 00:12:56,383 --> 00:12:58,472 - When did you guys start hearing 276 00:12:58,516 --> 00:13:02,302 that we were going to arrest and rescue? 277 00:13:02,346 --> 00:13:04,304 - I was on one of those 24-hour off. 278 00:13:04,348 --> 00:13:05,697 - Yeah. - And so 279 00:13:05,740 --> 00:13:07,525 I was at the hotel room, 280 00:13:07,568 --> 00:13:09,570 and another operator came and said, 281 00:13:09,614 --> 00:13:11,964 "Hey, we're doing it in the morning at 0600." 282 00:13:12,008 --> 00:13:14,445 And I'm like, "Are you serious?" 283 00:13:14,488 --> 00:13:16,882 - We could rescue the kids, get them out, 284 00:13:16,926 --> 00:13:18,492 put Koresh where he belonged, in prison, 285 00:13:18,536 --> 00:13:19,885 and do what we came there to do. 286 00:13:19,929 --> 00:13:22,105 - Yeah, and bring those to justice 287 00:13:22,148 --> 00:13:23,889 who had killed four ATF agents. - Exactly. 288 00:13:23,933 --> 00:13:25,021 - Start the process. 289 00:13:25,064 --> 00:13:26,152 - Ultimately, that was 290 00:13:26,196 --> 00:13:28,372 what the attorney general approved. 291 00:13:32,506 --> 00:13:37,207 ♪ 292 00:13:37,250 --> 00:13:39,296 - And take me from there, what you guys do. 293 00:13:39,339 --> 00:13:40,601 - It would have been probably, 294 00:13:40,645 --> 00:13:42,342 you know, 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning. 295 00:13:42,386 --> 00:13:46,694 And basically, the negotiators had announced to the Davidians 296 00:13:46,738 --> 00:13:49,219 that, "Look, there's gonna be a gas insertion." 297 00:13:59,490 --> 00:14:00,883 - "You're gonna want to come out of there 298 00:14:00,926 --> 00:14:02,710 "because it's gonna get very uncomfortable. 299 00:14:02,754 --> 00:14:04,190 "It's not gonna be good for the children 300 00:14:04,234 --> 00:14:05,888 to be exposed to that environment." 301 00:14:05,931 --> 00:14:07,933 And so 6:00 a.m. rolled around, 302 00:14:07,977 --> 00:14:11,545 and we all began the procession 303 00:14:11,589 --> 00:14:14,940 in the Bradleys and the M-88 tanks. 304 00:14:24,471 --> 00:14:26,821 - And the tanks, which had been configured 305 00:14:26,865 --> 00:14:30,173 so that they could crush a hole in the exterior wall 306 00:14:30,216 --> 00:14:33,002 and then spray gas into the compound. 307 00:14:38,398 --> 00:14:42,359 - Sure enough, we literally hadn't crossed the threshold, 308 00:14:42,402 --> 00:14:45,014 and an operator from one of the sniper positions 309 00:14:45,057 --> 00:14:46,754 said "compromise." 310 00:14:46,798 --> 00:14:48,800 And "compromise" means that the Davidians 311 00:14:48,843 --> 00:14:51,107 were in the tower with long weapons, 312 00:14:51,150 --> 00:14:53,065 and they were opening fire on us. 313 00:14:53,109 --> 00:14:54,675 [gunfire] 314 00:14:54,719 --> 00:14:58,070 Now we're under fire, and that meant, you know, 315 00:14:58,114 --> 00:15:00,377 our "rules of engagement" were gonna accelerate. 316 00:15:00,420 --> 00:15:04,076 Basically, any time a sniper called out and said, 317 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,297 "There's a Davidian in this window with a long weapon," 318 00:15:07,340 --> 00:15:09,560 then I would fire gas rounds into that window 319 00:15:09,603 --> 00:15:11,257 to try to run him out of there. 320 00:15:11,301 --> 00:15:14,782 - Sorry, in the sniper positions, you guys are-- 321 00:15:14,826 --> 00:15:18,264 - We were covering, 322 00:15:18,308 --> 00:15:22,399 but we couldn't identify targets and be certain 323 00:15:22,442 --> 00:15:25,837 that they didn't have a child underneath them as cover 324 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,361 or some other human being that was innocent. 325 00:15:30,363 --> 00:15:32,061 We wanted to be able to hit the target. 326 00:15:32,104 --> 00:15:33,497 So we couldn't fire. We wouldn't fire. 327 00:15:33,540 --> 00:15:36,326 We didn't fire even though we received gunfire 328 00:15:36,369 --> 00:15:38,893 the entire morning all around us. 329 00:15:40,808 --> 00:15:44,551 - The negotiators is reaching out to the Davidians, 330 00:15:44,595 --> 00:15:45,944 saying, you know, "Please come out"... 331 00:15:49,469 --> 00:15:51,297 - Thinking that maybe they'll start to file out 332 00:15:51,341 --> 00:15:53,386 through the doors and some of the openings 333 00:15:53,430 --> 00:15:55,388 made by the tanks. 334 00:15:55,432 --> 00:15:57,825 But there's nothing, no response. 335 00:15:57,869 --> 00:15:59,566 Nobody's coming out. Nothing. 336 00:16:08,619 --> 00:16:10,403 - Charlie, what's happening at this point? 337 00:16:10,447 --> 00:16:12,101 We've moved the Bradleys forward. 338 00:16:12,144 --> 00:16:13,711 We're pumping gas in. 339 00:16:13,754 --> 00:16:16,496 - The gas is ineffective. 340 00:16:16,540 --> 00:16:19,064 Windy day. Place was a barn. 341 00:16:19,108 --> 00:16:21,936 Windows open. Gas was just blowing. 342 00:16:21,980 --> 00:16:23,547 The wind was blowing it right out the windows. 343 00:16:23,590 --> 00:16:24,809 They had masks. I don't even know 344 00:16:24,852 --> 00:16:26,419 if they needed them, to be honest with you. 345 00:16:26,463 --> 00:16:28,769 It wasn't affecting them. They were still shooting at us. 346 00:16:28,813 --> 00:16:31,729 They were not responding the way we had hoped 347 00:16:31,772 --> 00:16:33,905 they would respond by letting the kids out. 348 00:16:36,125 --> 00:16:39,432 - Then I see on the red and white corner, a wisp of smoke. 349 00:16:43,436 --> 00:16:47,136 Another operator calls out that he sees a wisp of smoke. 350 00:16:47,179 --> 00:16:48,615 I can't see that corner. - Yeah. 351 00:16:48,659 --> 00:16:51,227 - He can't see mine. The compound is too big. 352 00:16:51,270 --> 00:16:54,099 So therefore, I know, OK, there's got to be 353 00:16:54,143 --> 00:16:56,145 two "wisps of smoke." - Yeah. 354 00:16:56,188 --> 00:16:58,190 - That means two fires have been set. 355 00:16:58,234 --> 00:17:01,976 And I'm like, they're starting fires in there. 356 00:17:02,020 --> 00:17:08,026 ♪ 357 00:17:08,070 --> 00:17:09,245 - I had a pretty unique perspective 358 00:17:09,287 --> 00:17:11,116 because I was in an angle 359 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,511 where I could see most of the structure. 360 00:17:14,554 --> 00:17:17,688 And I start seeing puffs of smoke, puffs of smoke, 361 00:17:17,731 --> 00:17:20,125 puffs of smoke in three different places 362 00:17:20,169 --> 00:17:23,650 simultaneously along the building. 363 00:17:23,694 --> 00:17:27,437 And the next thing you know, with that wind... 364 00:17:27,479 --> 00:17:29,613 - We can see flames from two miles away. 365 00:17:29,656 --> 00:17:31,876 Now the flames-- oh, my goodness. 366 00:17:33,791 --> 00:17:35,358 - And we wanted to get out. 367 00:17:35,401 --> 00:17:36,881 We said, "We've got to go get those kids." 368 00:17:36,924 --> 00:17:39,013 And we started to, but we could feel the rounds 369 00:17:39,057 --> 00:17:41,712 impacting the sandbags and hear them going off. 370 00:17:41,755 --> 00:17:43,409 We knew it was a death sentence to do that. 371 00:17:43,453 --> 00:17:45,194 [gunfire] 372 00:17:45,237 --> 00:17:48,153 [sirens wailing] 373 00:17:54,638 --> 00:17:58,163 - And the fire has started to consume the building, 374 00:17:58,207 --> 00:18:00,557 and I see a woman standing on the second floor. 375 00:18:04,256 --> 00:18:05,562 And then she jumps. 376 00:18:08,739 --> 00:18:10,828 And then she turns around and walks back in 377 00:18:10,871 --> 00:18:13,352 to the first floor of the compound, back into the flames. 378 00:18:17,269 --> 00:18:19,358 I climb back into the back of the Bradley. 379 00:18:19,402 --> 00:18:22,056 I tell the guy who's driving, I said, "Let's go over there. 380 00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:24,798 "I'm gonna see if I can get in there and get her. 381 00:18:24,842 --> 00:18:27,279 And maybe she's with the children." 382 00:18:33,242 --> 00:18:38,029 And I find her laying on the concrete floor facedown. 383 00:18:38,072 --> 00:18:41,163 And I shake her and identify myself. 384 00:18:41,206 --> 00:18:43,382 And I said, "Listen, where are the children?" 385 00:18:43,426 --> 00:18:46,124 And she just was nonresponsive. 386 00:18:46,168 --> 00:18:48,605 And I grab her, and I say, 387 00:18:48,648 --> 00:18:51,085 "Look, if we don't get out of here, we're gonna die as well." 388 00:18:54,263 --> 00:18:57,831 I'm having to drag her over the burning debris, 389 00:18:57,875 --> 00:19:01,444 back out to the back of the Bradley, 390 00:19:01,487 --> 00:19:03,620 and lay her on the back. 391 00:19:05,709 --> 00:19:07,145 I'm still asking her, "Where are the children?" 392 00:19:07,189 --> 00:19:09,321 She never does respond. 393 00:19:12,324 --> 00:19:15,327 - I was pissed 'cause I'm like, well, those kids aren't out. 394 00:19:15,371 --> 00:19:17,677 I'm praying now that there's a bunker 395 00:19:17,721 --> 00:19:19,331 or a tunnel or someplace safe. 396 00:19:26,860 --> 00:19:29,863 - As many as 86 people, including 17 children, 397 00:19:29,907 --> 00:19:31,082 are thought to have died 398 00:19:31,125 --> 00:19:33,171 in yesterday's inferno outside Waco. 399 00:19:33,215 --> 00:19:35,608 Today, investigators will search the ruins 400 00:19:35,652 --> 00:19:38,829 of the cult compound for remains of the victims. 401 00:19:46,924 --> 00:19:49,100 - And after the fires had kind of turned 402 00:19:49,143 --> 00:19:52,495 to just, you know, smoldering embers, 403 00:19:52,538 --> 00:19:54,453 I got tasked with being the first 404 00:19:54,497 --> 00:19:58,109 to go into that first-level concrete bunker. 405 00:20:00,546 --> 00:20:03,114 That was hell on Earth, 406 00:20:03,157 --> 00:20:05,072 a hell created by David Koresh. 407 00:20:07,945 --> 00:20:11,905 And then, in a pile, you see a-- 408 00:20:11,949 --> 00:20:14,430 you know, sort of bone fragment or skull. 409 00:20:19,130 --> 00:20:22,568 It was like 40 children and, you know, their mothers. 410 00:20:25,179 --> 00:20:26,659 - It looked like a lot of the children 411 00:20:26,703 --> 00:20:29,967 had died in their mother's arms. 412 00:20:30,010 --> 00:20:31,534 The forensics afterwards, we were told 413 00:20:31,577 --> 00:20:33,840 that some of the children had been killed by their mothers 414 00:20:33,884 --> 00:20:36,974 to escape the hell of dying in a fire like that. 415 00:20:41,195 --> 00:20:43,546 All we cared about were those kids. 416 00:20:43,589 --> 00:20:47,289 Once we knew they weren't coming out and they were dead, 417 00:20:47,332 --> 00:20:48,899 we were crushed. 418 00:21:01,694 --> 00:21:04,958 - This tragedy that's beyond even articulation 419 00:21:05,002 --> 00:21:07,091 is solely because of David Koresh. 420 00:21:07,134 --> 00:21:08,048 That's it. 421 00:21:12,749 --> 00:21:14,707 - The guy didn't want to come out 422 00:21:14,751 --> 00:21:16,361 because he was a pedophile. 423 00:21:16,405 --> 00:21:19,016 He had sexually assaulted underage girls-- 424 00:21:19,059 --> 00:21:22,149 14, 13-- had children with them. 425 00:21:22,193 --> 00:21:26,371 And every child of his was a living, breathing, 426 00:21:26,415 --> 00:21:29,374 walking piece of evidence against him in court. 427 00:21:29,418 --> 00:21:31,376 And he would have gone to jail for a very long time 428 00:21:31,420 --> 00:21:33,117 for child molestation, and he knew that. 429 00:21:56,706 --> 00:22:01,711 - The record of the Waco incident documents mistakes. 430 00:22:01,754 --> 00:22:05,497 What the record from Waco does not evidence, however, 431 00:22:05,541 --> 00:22:08,239 is any improper motive or intent 432 00:22:08,282 --> 00:22:10,981 on the part of law enforcement. 433 00:22:11,024 --> 00:22:15,072 David Koresh and the Davidians set fire to themselves 434 00:22:15,115 --> 00:22:16,856 and committed suicide. 435 00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:19,859 The government did not do that. 436 00:22:27,127 --> 00:22:30,087 [somber music] 437 00:22:30,130 --> 00:22:37,007 ♪ 438 00:22:40,619 --> 00:22:42,621 - How does this case rank in your career, 439 00:22:42,665 --> 00:22:44,580 and what are some of the thoughts you have? 440 00:22:44,623 --> 00:22:46,625 - I had a long career, 31 years. 441 00:22:46,669 --> 00:22:49,019 I enjoyed pretty much every minute of it. 442 00:22:49,062 --> 00:22:52,457 This was one of the most distasteful aspects, of course. 443 00:22:52,501 --> 00:22:55,155 And the reason it still sticks in my throat 444 00:22:55,199 --> 00:22:58,463 is the kids 445 00:22:58,507 --> 00:23:00,334 who had no choice in the matter 446 00:23:00,378 --> 00:23:02,946 and were essentially murdered by their biological father. 447 00:23:07,429 --> 00:23:09,343 And the four ATF agents... 448 00:23:16,176 --> 00:23:17,439 Nobody was really held accountable 449 00:23:17,482 --> 00:23:19,179 for their deaths, their murders. 450 00:23:19,223 --> 00:23:22,879 I've not spoken about this in over 30 years almost. 451 00:23:22,922 --> 00:23:25,142 It just breaks my heart, you know? 452 00:23:25,185 --> 00:23:26,970 - Yeah, I agree. - Anyway... 453 00:23:27,013 --> 00:23:28,493 - I think there were definitely 454 00:23:28,537 --> 00:23:31,931 some lessons learned by the FBI. 455 00:23:31,975 --> 00:23:35,413 And one of the big ones was to have a better relationship 456 00:23:35,457 --> 00:23:38,460 between the tactical side of the house and the negotiators. 457 00:23:38,503 --> 00:23:41,419 And I do think that was accomplished. 458 00:23:41,463 --> 00:23:43,595 Something that I think was not accomplished 459 00:23:43,639 --> 00:23:47,207 was how to deal with a cult. 460 00:23:47,251 --> 00:23:49,079 - "Thou shall break them with a rod of iron. 461 00:23:49,122 --> 00:23:51,864 Thou shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." 462 00:23:51,908 --> 00:23:53,866 The guy is tough. 463 00:23:53,910 --> 00:23:58,175 He's got more than guns. He's got God. 464 00:23:58,218 --> 00:24:00,786 - The bottom line is, there was one person 465 00:24:00,830 --> 00:24:03,310 that could have changed the outcome of it 466 00:24:03,354 --> 00:24:04,964 but chose not to do so, 467 00:24:05,008 --> 00:24:08,054 and that was David Koresh. 468 00:24:08,098 --> 00:24:11,231 And until people stop following false prophets, 469 00:24:11,275 --> 00:24:12,189 this will happen again. 470 00:24:20,327 --> 00:24:23,287 [dramatic music] 471 00:24:23,330 --> 00:24:30,250 ♪