1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,162 WWW.MY-SUBS.CO 1 00:00:09,300 --> 00:00:12,137 After the first time that Mr. Dahmer killed, 2 00:00:12,929 --> 00:00:15,348 he then went for nine years without killing. 3 00:00:16,516 --> 00:00:18,393 But then after this hiatus, 4 00:00:18,476 --> 00:00:22,939 he wakes up in the Ambassador Hotel with a dead body next to him. 5 00:00:24,858 --> 00:00:29,279 He then had what I'd refer to as a religious conversion in reverse. 6 00:00:30,238 --> 00:00:32,574 He began to think, "Maybe there's a devil." 7 00:00:32,657 --> 00:00:34,993 "Maybe it's my destiny to carry out the work of the devil." 8 00:00:36,369 --> 00:00:39,998 He began engaging in all kinds of bizarre incantations. 9 00:00:41,291 --> 00:00:44,586 He began relating to parts of movies 10 00:00:44,669 --> 00:00:48,923 that seemed to suggest there were evil forces out there. 11 00:00:49,799 --> 00:00:51,926 Return of the Jedi was one of them. 12 00:00:52,802 --> 00:00:55,055 He really identified with the Emperor. 13 00:00:55,555 --> 00:00:57,223 He wanted like that mind control. 14 00:00:58,183 --> 00:01:00,560 He had those, you know, yellow eyes. 15 00:01:01,186 --> 00:01:05,148 So Jeff found some place where he could get contacts that were yellow eyes. 16 00:01:06,399 --> 00:01:08,902 And so before he would go out at night, 17 00:01:08,985 --> 00:01:11,154 he would put the contacts in. 18 00:01:11,237 --> 00:01:13,490 He had to get himself charged up 19 00:01:13,573 --> 00:01:15,575 by trying to emulate 20 00:01:15,658 --> 00:01:17,410 a devil or evil person 21 00:01:17,911 --> 00:01:21,039 to fulfill his fantasies. 22 00:01:21,122 --> 00:01:23,166 People go to 23 00:01:23,249 --> 00:01:25,585 these gory horror movies to... 24 00:01:26,878 --> 00:01:30,548 to get a glimpse of what... of what they show in the movies. 25 00:01:32,383 --> 00:01:34,135 The only difference is 26 00:01:34,928 --> 00:01:36,346 I did it for real. 27 00:02:07,210 --> 00:02:10,130 My relationship with Jeff grew over time. 28 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:13,007 As we went on, 29 00:02:13,591 --> 00:02:15,677 I got to know different facets of him. 30 00:02:17,554 --> 00:02:19,764 There was a lot of conflict within him. 31 00:02:20,932 --> 00:02:22,475 He went a very long time 32 00:02:23,059 --> 00:02:25,145 where he didn't commit any murders. 33 00:02:25,228 --> 00:02:27,522 But after he met Steven Tuomi, 34 00:02:27,605 --> 00:02:30,692 his control over the issue was gone. 35 00:02:31,192 --> 00:02:32,569 And that's a slippery slope. 36 00:02:33,153 --> 00:02:35,033 So at what point in time 37 00:02:36,072 --> 00:02:39,617 did you totally give in to these feelings altogether 38 00:02:39,701 --> 00:02:41,744 and not try and change anything? 39 00:02:41,828 --> 00:02:44,205 After the Ambassador. 40 00:02:44,289 --> 00:02:47,333 That really got things in full swing. 41 00:02:48,376 --> 00:02:51,880 Eventually, he got to a point where he went over the cliff. 42 00:02:51,963 --> 00:02:53,214 And there's no coming back. 43 00:02:53,965 --> 00:02:55,842 And four years later, 44 00:02:55,925 --> 00:02:59,512 that reckless behavior is what ultimately led to his arrest. 45 00:03:10,315 --> 00:03:14,110 The Dahmer case is something we had never seen in Milwaukee. 46 00:03:15,236 --> 00:03:20,116 It was an unreal moment in my reporting career. 47 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,787 That night back in July of '91, 48 00:03:25,496 --> 00:03:27,665 on the 22nd, 49 00:03:29,918 --> 00:03:34,923 Milwaukee police officers were on their nightly tour of duty. 50 00:03:36,007 --> 00:03:38,593 They came outside of... of Dahmer's apartment 51 00:03:38,676 --> 00:03:41,221 just down the street in their cruiser. 52 00:03:41,721 --> 00:03:46,601 And that's when Tracy Edwards approached them. 53 00:03:46,684 --> 00:03:50,855 Tracy Edwards was wearing boxer shorts, 54 00:03:51,564 --> 00:03:54,901 and a handcuff hanging down on his wrist. 55 00:03:56,694 --> 00:04:01,199 So the officers were talking to him, 56 00:04:01,783 --> 00:04:03,326 and he started to share 57 00:04:03,409 --> 00:04:06,037 this kind of fantastical story 58 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:07,956 about where he had just been. 59 00:04:08,039 --> 00:04:10,375 About this weird white dude 60 00:04:10,458 --> 00:04:13,211 that he had just had contact with. 61 00:04:15,630 --> 00:04:17,882 Dahmer chose his victims 62 00:04:17,966 --> 00:04:20,176 by a certain body structure. 63 00:04:22,011 --> 00:04:24,055 He would offer them money, 64 00:04:24,138 --> 00:04:27,141 and they would let Dahmer take photos of them. 65 00:04:27,225 --> 00:04:29,560 But he'd say, "You have to come to my apartment." 66 00:04:31,396 --> 00:04:36,234 That night, Tracy Edwards agreed to come over to Dahmer's apartment. 67 00:04:39,112 --> 00:04:41,990 Tracy, first of all, he's a very nice fella, 68 00:04:42,073 --> 00:04:44,325 and he was very, very street-smart. 69 00:04:45,576 --> 00:04:48,913 And he told us about how Jeffrey was acting that night. 70 00:04:50,081 --> 00:04:52,083 And he'd suddenly realized 71 00:04:52,667 --> 00:04:55,253 that he wasn't going there for photography. 72 00:04:56,421 --> 00:04:58,631 He was going there for something worse. 73 00:04:59,799 --> 00:05:02,260 When they were in the bedroom, 74 00:05:02,844 --> 00:05:05,388 Dahmer slapped one cuff on him, 75 00:05:05,471 --> 00:05:09,851 and Edwards moved so he couldn't get the other cuff on him. 76 00:05:11,853 --> 00:05:15,189 And Jeffrey put on that Exorcist III movie. 77 00:05:15,815 --> 00:05:18,609 Dahmer was starting to get into the movie. 78 00:05:18,693 --> 00:05:21,237 So he wasn't concerned about the other cuff. 79 00:05:22,488 --> 00:05:24,574 He started this crazy motion, 80 00:05:24,657 --> 00:05:27,410 sitting and rocking back and forth in a chair, 81 00:05:27,493 --> 00:05:29,537 and making these strange noises, 82 00:05:29,620 --> 00:05:31,998 and talking like in tongues. 83 00:05:32,999 --> 00:05:36,210 Tracy started acting like they were buddies, 84 00:05:36,294 --> 00:05:39,714 'cause he knew he had to get away or he was gonna get killed. 85 00:05:42,884 --> 00:05:47,472 I told him I gotta go to the bathroom. As I was walking past the guy, I hit him. 86 00:05:47,555 --> 00:05:50,892 Then I ran for the door, and God had to be with me, right? 87 00:05:50,975 --> 00:05:53,019 'Cause he had, like, eight different locks on that, 88 00:05:53,102 --> 00:05:55,229 and I just picked the right lock out of all of them. 89 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,695 Tracy flagged down a Milwaukee police squad. 90 00:06:03,946 --> 00:06:06,074 At first, he just wanted the handcuff off. 91 00:06:06,157 --> 00:06:08,868 I don't think he wanted to give a lot of information 92 00:06:08,951 --> 00:06:11,120 as to how the handcuff was put on him. 93 00:06:13,164 --> 00:06:16,584 Because it was different handcuffs than Milwaukee police used, 94 00:06:16,667 --> 00:06:18,753 their keys actually didn't even work in it. 95 00:06:19,253 --> 00:06:22,215 So they went back to the apartment, both to get a handcuff key, 96 00:06:22,298 --> 00:06:23,925 and also to investigate. 97 00:06:29,013 --> 00:06:32,100 When Dahmer answered the door, he was intoxicated. 98 00:06:34,018 --> 00:06:35,853 He allowed the officers in. 99 00:06:37,772 --> 00:06:40,108 The officers checked the bedroom, 100 00:06:40,191 --> 00:06:42,068 found a knife under the bed 101 00:06:42,151 --> 00:06:45,279 that Dahmer threatened Tracy Edwards with. 102 00:06:46,823 --> 00:06:49,117 Tracy Edwards had made the comment 103 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,537 about Dahmer saying that there was 104 00:06:53,538 --> 00:06:56,165 a head or heads in the refrigerator. 105 00:06:58,876 --> 00:07:00,962 The officer opened it 106 00:07:02,588 --> 00:07:06,134 and saw the head in the refrigerator with the head looking up, 107 00:07:06,217 --> 00:07:07,635 and he screamed. 108 00:07:07,718 --> 00:07:09,846 He literally screamed. 109 00:07:11,514 --> 00:07:15,309 He eventually retired, kept dreaming about it. 110 00:07:16,686 --> 00:07:18,020 He couldn't handle it. 111 00:07:21,899 --> 00:07:23,860 Dahmer was taken into custody. 112 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,113 He was taken down to police headquarters. 113 00:07:28,239 --> 00:07:31,576 When I arrived at the scene and met the night shift lieutenant, 114 00:07:31,659 --> 00:07:35,955 Roosevelt Harrell, he was just shaking his head and gave me a briefing 115 00:07:36,038 --> 00:07:37,457 how unbelievable it was. 116 00:07:37,540 --> 00:07:41,627 It's a very, very small apartment, but a tremendous amount of evidence. 117 00:07:44,255 --> 00:07:46,382 The scene itself was gruesome. 118 00:07:47,258 --> 00:07:49,427 The tools that were at the apartment 119 00:07:49,510 --> 00:07:52,221 were hacksaws, screwdrivers, 120 00:07:52,305 --> 00:07:54,390 other tools that he would use 121 00:07:54,474 --> 00:07:57,351 while he was dissecting the victims. 122 00:08:00,605 --> 00:08:04,150 I thought it was gonna be a routine scene, and when I arrived, 123 00:08:04,233 --> 00:08:08,321 the, uh, law enforcement officer took me into Dahmer's apartment. 124 00:08:10,656 --> 00:08:14,869 Forensic pathologists are used to seeing trauma, 125 00:08:15,745 --> 00:08:17,538 but this was something different. 126 00:08:19,123 --> 00:08:23,085 Looking around the room, you could tell people had fear on their face. 127 00:08:24,045 --> 00:08:27,173 And in the years that have passed, 128 00:08:27,256 --> 00:08:29,759 I have come to believe 129 00:08:29,842 --> 00:08:32,220 that that is a time 130 00:08:32,303 --> 00:08:35,389 that I actually encountered evil. 131 00:08:36,557 --> 00:08:38,392 And I can't describe it, 132 00:08:38,476 --> 00:08:42,396 but it is a feeling of human depravity. 133 00:08:44,106 --> 00:08:48,861 As we went through these various drawers and containers, 134 00:08:48,945 --> 00:08:52,073 my feeling is that I was not doing a crime scene, 135 00:08:52,156 --> 00:08:55,159 but I was dismantling Dahmer's museum. 136 00:08:57,995 --> 00:09:01,749 It was obvious that Dahmer had collected 137 00:09:01,832 --> 00:09:05,461 some of the body parts from the individuals that he had killed. 138 00:09:05,962 --> 00:09:09,674 Desiccated genitals, you know, human hair. 139 00:09:12,343 --> 00:09:14,679 We found plastic bags 140 00:09:14,762 --> 00:09:16,847 that contained tissue. 141 00:09:17,598 --> 00:09:19,475 I was able to identify 142 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,269 a human heart, 143 00:09:21,811 --> 00:09:25,147 and other types of skeletal muscle tissue. 144 00:09:26,857 --> 00:09:28,859 And then, in that bedroom, 145 00:09:28,943 --> 00:09:31,988 there was three intact skeletons 146 00:09:32,071 --> 00:09:34,031 that had been decapitated. 147 00:09:35,032 --> 00:09:36,993 And 11 human skulls. 148 00:09:38,202 --> 00:09:39,996 Then it all of a sudden hit me. 149 00:09:40,496 --> 00:09:43,666 "We have a serial killer in Milwaukee." 150 00:09:46,294 --> 00:09:48,087 It was just so extreme. 151 00:09:49,672 --> 00:09:51,549 It was almost unbelievable. 152 00:09:51,632 --> 00:09:54,719 But you knew it was believable because we had all the evidence there. 153 00:09:56,053 --> 00:09:57,888 When I was in the bedroom, 154 00:09:57,972 --> 00:10:00,641 I noticed this large, plastic blue vat. 155 00:10:01,267 --> 00:10:03,728 And as I moved it and shook it, 156 00:10:03,811 --> 00:10:06,647 there was a sloshing of liquid, 157 00:10:06,731 --> 00:10:09,191 as well as some heavy weight. 158 00:10:10,109 --> 00:10:13,863 So I asked to have the HAZMAT team come in 159 00:10:13,946 --> 00:10:16,907 and remove that in case there was any chemicals 160 00:10:16,991 --> 00:10:19,827 or other harmful materials that were there. 161 00:10:23,581 --> 00:10:25,207 Early the next morning, 162 00:10:25,291 --> 00:10:27,960 I headed to the police headquarters 163 00:10:28,711 --> 00:10:33,341 and got a rundown on what Dahmer had been saying. 164 00:10:34,759 --> 00:10:38,262 And so then we started to go through the time frame. 165 00:10:38,346 --> 00:10:41,390 That started what was many weeks, 166 00:10:41,474 --> 00:10:44,769 in fact, uh, months of investigation. 167 00:10:47,605 --> 00:10:49,523 His attorney would be there and say, 168 00:10:49,607 --> 00:10:51,400 "Jeffrey, I'm gonna advise you not to talk." 169 00:10:51,484 --> 00:10:54,278 And every day he would sign a waiver saying, "No, I wanna talk." 170 00:10:58,407 --> 00:10:59,825 We were in the jail, 171 00:11:00,493 --> 00:11:04,121 and he was just going through each of them 172 00:11:04,205 --> 00:11:06,832 as he could remember, going back in time. 173 00:11:07,416 --> 00:11:09,656 I always kept my feelings 174 00:11:09,710 --> 00:11:11,045 completely to myself. 175 00:11:11,671 --> 00:11:15,549 And, uh, so this is a sort of learning experience for me. 176 00:11:16,092 --> 00:11:18,094 It feels like you've been open with me. 177 00:11:18,177 --> 00:11:21,514 Mm-hmm. It gets easier as you practice. 178 00:11:24,225 --> 00:11:28,396 Can you answer for me what was it that caused you to wanna kill them? 179 00:11:29,105 --> 00:11:31,273 The underlying force, I think, 180 00:11:31,357 --> 00:11:35,569 was obviously a warped sexual drive. 181 00:11:37,571 --> 00:11:40,408 Just a constant feeling of emptiness, 182 00:11:40,491 --> 00:11:42,284 and not being able to find 183 00:11:43,285 --> 00:11:45,663 anything in life that really gave me 184 00:11:45,746 --> 00:11:49,834 a sense of hap... happiness, peace, or fulfillment. 185 00:11:51,669 --> 00:11:54,171 I was always searching for something more. 186 00:12:09,145 --> 00:12:11,355 One night I went out, 187 00:12:11,439 --> 00:12:15,151 and I met this... I guess he's Indian. 188 00:12:15,234 --> 00:12:18,904 And he was standing there. Said he was waiting for the bus. 189 00:12:18,988 --> 00:12:20,668 Do you remember what his name was? 190 00:12:20,698 --> 00:12:21,991 No, I don't. 191 00:12:24,910 --> 00:12:27,246 In January of 1988, 192 00:12:27,329 --> 00:12:31,125 Jeffrey Dahmer, while living at his grandma's house, went out, 193 00:12:31,208 --> 00:12:34,754 and he met James Doxtator, who was 14. 194 00:12:35,588 --> 00:12:38,507 He was in front of a gay bar at the bus stop. 195 00:12:39,467 --> 00:12:43,512 Dahmer asked him to come back to his grandmother's house with him. 196 00:12:44,096 --> 00:12:47,641 Doxtator named his price, which was $50 for sex. 197 00:12:48,893 --> 00:12:52,354 - Where was Grandma? - She was upstairs, sound asleep. 198 00:12:53,022 --> 00:12:55,357 I asked him, "How late can you stay?" 199 00:12:55,441 --> 00:12:59,987 And he said, "Uh, not later than early morning." 200 00:13:00,070 --> 00:13:02,448 And it was already approaching early morning. 201 00:13:02,531 --> 00:13:03,531 Okay. 202 00:13:03,908 --> 00:13:05,951 What was going through your mind? 203 00:13:06,035 --> 00:13:07,119 I just... 204 00:13:09,663 --> 00:13:12,875 ...wanted to keep him. I guess that's the best way to describe it. 205 00:13:14,543 --> 00:13:18,380 He would mix the potions that would render the person asleep. 206 00:13:18,464 --> 00:13:20,216 and use the sleeping pills. 207 00:13:20,299 --> 00:13:23,594 He would give them five or seven of them in a coffee drink. 208 00:13:23,677 --> 00:13:26,514 Maybe... maybe with some alcohol put in there. 209 00:13:27,848 --> 00:13:31,060 My thoughts obviously weren't, uh... 210 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:34,313 the thoughts of a sane person at the time. 211 00:13:34,396 --> 00:13:38,067 Uh, I would've rather he'd stayed alive, 212 00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:41,654 but strangling seemed to be the way to keep him. 213 00:13:42,321 --> 00:13:46,283 He would kill somebody. The body would be upstairs in the bedroom. 214 00:13:46,367 --> 00:13:49,411 The grandmother would wake up, and Jeffrey would come down 215 00:13:49,495 --> 00:13:51,205 and have breakfast with her. 216 00:13:51,288 --> 00:13:53,624 The body's upstairs in the bedroom. 217 00:13:53,707 --> 00:13:55,835 Jeffrey would chitchat with his grandmother 218 00:13:55,918 --> 00:13:57,545 and send her off to church. 219 00:13:59,380 --> 00:14:01,549 There's just a total detachment. 220 00:14:02,967 --> 00:14:06,178 He kept the corpse of Doxtator 221 00:14:06,262 --> 00:14:10,307 in his grandmother's fruit cellar for about a week. 222 00:14:10,391 --> 00:14:13,060 And when alone in the house 223 00:14:13,143 --> 00:14:16,981 would bring out the body and make sexual use of it. 224 00:14:18,858 --> 00:14:22,695 What corpses, mannequins, and unconscious people 225 00:14:22,778 --> 00:14:24,405 all have in common 226 00:14:24,488 --> 00:14:27,032 is they don't make demands, 227 00:14:27,116 --> 00:14:28,534 they don't complain, 228 00:14:29,159 --> 00:14:30,536 and they don't leave. 229 00:14:31,203 --> 00:14:33,289 For Dahmer, that's the big one. 230 00:14:36,083 --> 00:14:39,128 There's no person I've ever known of 231 00:14:39,211 --> 00:14:42,423 that was as lonely a human being as Jeffrey Dahmer. 232 00:14:43,883 --> 00:14:45,009 I'd say, 233 00:14:45,092 --> 00:14:47,303 "Jeffrey, do you have any friends?" 234 00:14:48,262 --> 00:14:49,096 "No." 235 00:14:49,179 --> 00:14:51,557 "Did you ever go to a movie with a guy?" 236 00:14:52,141 --> 00:14:52,975 "No." 237 00:14:53,058 --> 00:14:55,603 "Do you ever go to a party?" "No." 238 00:14:57,229 --> 00:15:00,983 He had no friends, so he wasn't talking to anybody. 239 00:15:02,860 --> 00:15:06,906 All I got was a picture of a shell of a human being. 240 00:15:08,282 --> 00:15:10,409 He had no sense about anything 241 00:15:10,492 --> 00:15:13,746 other than satisfying this desire 242 00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:17,625 to have sex with a dead or an unconscious human being. 243 00:15:23,130 --> 00:15:25,411 This whole situation has forced me 244 00:15:25,466 --> 00:15:27,927 at how I've lived my life. 245 00:15:28,427 --> 00:15:30,429 You never saw that at the time? 246 00:15:30,512 --> 00:15:34,475 I may have seen it. I chose to ignore it, bury it, 247 00:15:35,351 --> 00:15:39,229 submerge it under the compulsion that was driving me. 248 00:15:41,398 --> 00:15:44,944 Jeffrey was very intellectually curious about anatomy. 249 00:15:45,945 --> 00:15:50,449 The interest occurred very young, even when he was in third or fourth grade. 250 00:15:57,873 --> 00:16:02,461 When Jeff and I were young, we would often go hiking in the woods. 251 00:16:02,544 --> 00:16:07,716 And we'd often come across bones in the ground, 252 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,427 and he just took a particular interest 253 00:16:10,511 --> 00:16:12,680 in some of the anatomy of these animals. 254 00:16:14,014 --> 00:16:18,227 He would spend time out in this little shack in the yard, 255 00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:20,562 where he collected animals. 256 00:16:21,897 --> 00:16:24,233 And that garden shed was at one point 257 00:16:24,316 --> 00:16:26,860 used to hold a bone collection. 258 00:16:27,736 --> 00:16:30,280 Squirrel bones or rabbit bones, 259 00:16:30,364 --> 00:16:33,200 or whatever you find out in the woods. 260 00:16:33,283 --> 00:16:37,037 He had it all nicely displayed on some building tables in this shed. 261 00:16:37,621 --> 00:16:40,207 He'd already cleaned off any flesh that was on them. 262 00:16:40,290 --> 00:16:43,168 Personally, it was nothing that I was interested in collecting myself. 263 00:16:43,252 --> 00:16:45,129 Jeff found it interesting. 264 00:16:45,713 --> 00:16:48,132 What he was interested in at that age 265 00:16:48,215 --> 00:16:51,969 was more along the lines of amateur taxidermy. 266 00:16:52,594 --> 00:16:54,513 But in the process of that, 267 00:16:55,180 --> 00:16:56,598 it happened to him 268 00:16:56,682 --> 00:16:59,476 that he became interested 269 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,478 in the internal organs. 270 00:17:03,564 --> 00:17:06,244 It was a morbid interest, obviously. 271 00:17:06,275 --> 00:17:08,610 All right. And what did you start with? 272 00:17:09,987 --> 00:17:12,197 Just, uh, roadkill, 273 00:17:12,281 --> 00:17:13,741 dogs, 274 00:17:13,824 --> 00:17:15,409 uh, possums. 275 00:17:15,909 --> 00:17:18,996 He certainly had a fascination with cutting open the animals, 276 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:20,956 wanting to look at the insides. 277 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,542 You know, see how everything laid out. 278 00:17:24,293 --> 00:17:30,507 In ninth grade, I dissected a baby pig. 279 00:17:30,591 --> 00:17:32,926 After we were done with dissection, 280 00:17:33,010 --> 00:17:34,762 took the pig's head home 281 00:17:34,845 --> 00:17:36,555 and took the flesh off, 282 00:17:37,222 --> 00:17:39,975 and kept the skull for a while. 283 00:17:40,059 --> 00:17:41,477 Why, I don't know. 284 00:17:43,020 --> 00:17:45,939 He wouldn't kill any animals. He would find dead animals, 285 00:17:46,023 --> 00:17:47,107 and he would do it. 286 00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:50,861 This was all part of his fascination 287 00:17:50,944 --> 00:17:52,321 with a dead body. 288 00:17:55,115 --> 00:17:56,992 It's all that he was interested in. 289 00:17:57,868 --> 00:17:59,578 It became an obsession for him. 290 00:18:00,496 --> 00:18:04,291 He had this wall between himself and other people. 291 00:18:04,374 --> 00:18:06,085 No emotionality at all. 292 00:18:06,168 --> 00:18:09,838 Somebody who is unable to attach himself to other people. 293 00:18:11,507 --> 00:18:14,218 I'm not even sure whether or not 294 00:18:14,301 --> 00:18:16,053 I was capable of a real... 295 00:18:16,887 --> 00:18:19,223 sense of love, even back then. 296 00:18:20,182 --> 00:18:21,642 I ain't sure if I am now. 297 00:18:22,226 --> 00:18:25,395 You don't know how to love. Is that what you're saying? 298 00:18:25,479 --> 00:18:26,855 I'm not sure I do, no. 299 00:18:26,939 --> 00:18:30,567 A person who can love, I don't think would do these things. 300 00:18:41,662 --> 00:18:44,456 The morning after Dahmer had been arrested, 301 00:18:44,540 --> 00:18:46,125 the sun was rising, 302 00:18:46,208 --> 00:18:48,627 the nighttime police officers were heading off, 303 00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:50,796 and the daytime officers were coming on. 304 00:18:54,925 --> 00:18:58,220 The alley behind Dahmer's apartment was crowded now 305 00:18:58,303 --> 00:19:01,140 with some media people, but mostly with residents 306 00:19:01,223 --> 00:19:03,976 who'd been evacuated from Dahmer's apartment building. 307 00:19:06,436 --> 00:19:09,523 It's important for a crime reporter to have connections, 308 00:19:09,606 --> 00:19:11,900 the inside scoop in a police department. 309 00:19:12,568 --> 00:19:15,028 And one of my friends in the police department 310 00:19:15,112 --> 00:19:16,738 told me Dahmer's name. 311 00:19:17,239 --> 00:19:19,324 And that was not public at the time. 312 00:19:20,325 --> 00:19:22,870 I wanted to get away from the crime scene 313 00:19:22,953 --> 00:19:26,957 to the computer system at the district attorney's office. 314 00:19:28,375 --> 00:19:30,127 In that computer system, 315 00:19:30,210 --> 00:19:33,380 I could type in Dahmer's name and find out his history. 316 00:19:34,423 --> 00:19:37,885 And sure enough, there's a case, a felony case, of sexual assault. 317 00:19:39,428 --> 00:19:43,098 I was able to go through the records and find out he was represented 318 00:19:43,182 --> 00:19:45,851 in that case by an attorney named Gerry Boyle. 319 00:19:46,393 --> 00:19:49,396 Dahmer had been a known commodity to the police department. 320 00:19:57,905 --> 00:20:01,200 I met Dahmer for the first time in 1988. 321 00:20:02,492 --> 00:20:07,289 He had been charged with sexual misconduct with a young boy. 322 00:20:08,457 --> 00:20:11,919 Saw this, uh, Eurasian guy 323 00:20:12,002 --> 00:20:15,047 walking down the street in the afternoon. 324 00:20:15,130 --> 00:20:18,967 Asked him if he wanted to make some money, $50. He said, "Yes." 325 00:20:19,676 --> 00:20:21,511 "For pictures." We went back. 326 00:20:23,764 --> 00:20:25,599 He stripped down to his underwear. 327 00:20:26,266 --> 00:20:28,101 I took two pictures of him, 328 00:20:28,185 --> 00:20:30,145 one on the bed and one standing up, I think. 329 00:20:31,563 --> 00:20:35,484 And I was drinking some coffee with Irish Cream Mist in it. 330 00:20:35,984 --> 00:20:39,071 And I gave him some, and it had sleeping pills in it. 331 00:20:39,655 --> 00:20:41,990 And, uh, he drank some. 332 00:20:42,991 --> 00:20:46,370 The whole time, he stayed there maybe an hour at the most. 333 00:20:47,621 --> 00:20:50,540 Said he had to be going. I paid him the $50. 334 00:20:51,500 --> 00:20:53,043 And he left. 335 00:20:56,463 --> 00:20:58,048 Why did you let him go? 336 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,719 Because I had no knife. I had no intention of... of injuring him. 337 00:21:02,803 --> 00:21:05,097 I just wanted to stay with him 338 00:21:05,180 --> 00:21:07,391 and... and, uh, lay with him for a while. 339 00:21:09,518 --> 00:21:14,273 He told me he liked listening to people's stomach. 340 00:21:14,356 --> 00:21:16,400 Then I was on the bed still, 341 00:21:16,483 --> 00:21:19,987 and then he came more like leaning down, and then he start... 342 00:21:20,696 --> 00:21:22,614 He put his ears to my stomach. 343 00:21:24,074 --> 00:21:25,701 The boy was able to escape. 344 00:21:25,784 --> 00:21:28,161 Got to his home in a drugged condition. 345 00:21:28,245 --> 00:21:29,955 His parents were quite concerned. 346 00:21:30,038 --> 00:21:32,319 Eventually, took him to the hospital and called the police 347 00:21:32,374 --> 00:21:34,209 because he appeared to be drugged. 348 00:21:36,712 --> 00:21:40,382 Our office prosecuted Dahmer for the boy's victimization. 349 00:21:41,341 --> 00:21:45,220 Dahmer was convicted of drugging and sexual enticement of the youngster. 350 00:21:46,305 --> 00:21:49,808 At the time, Dahmer was brought to my attention, 351 00:21:49,891 --> 00:21:52,519 I was chief psychologist 352 00:21:52,602 --> 00:21:55,147 for Department of Corrections, Milwaukee region. 353 00:21:57,274 --> 00:21:59,901 While he was awaiting sentencing, 354 00:22:00,402 --> 00:22:03,780 I said I would just do a brief evaluation 355 00:22:04,448 --> 00:22:08,118 to get a sense of the status of what we were working with. 356 00:22:09,870 --> 00:22:15,834 Jeffrey was guarded, angry, and uncooperative from the start, 357 00:22:15,917 --> 00:22:17,919 showing up a half hour late, 358 00:22:18,003 --> 00:22:20,547 hoping that I wouldn't have waited for him. 359 00:22:21,256 --> 00:22:23,967 He would just stare at me, 360 00:22:24,051 --> 00:22:27,596 uh, with a very cold, icy, angry stare 361 00:22:27,679 --> 00:22:29,723 for the entire interview. 362 00:22:30,891 --> 00:22:34,436 But he still gave a lot of very important information, 363 00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:36,521 just based on his behavior. 364 00:22:37,814 --> 00:22:39,441 His personality pattern 365 00:22:39,524 --> 00:22:43,070 was of an individual who uses people, 366 00:22:43,987 --> 00:22:49,117 sees them as objects, does not have any empathy. 367 00:22:49,701 --> 00:22:54,331 My recommendation said that this person is too dangerous to be in the community. 368 00:22:54,414 --> 00:22:57,042 This person should be incarcerated at this point. 369 00:22:58,377 --> 00:23:02,756 The judge, in the end, listened to Jeffrey's speech, 370 00:23:02,839 --> 00:23:05,342 which was quite moving. 371 00:23:06,551 --> 00:23:10,680 He basically in a nutshell said, "Oh, this is terrible." 372 00:23:10,764 --> 00:23:14,017 "Uh, I'm sorry. It's never going to happen again." 373 00:23:15,727 --> 00:23:18,188 His sentence was a year work release. 374 00:23:19,981 --> 00:23:22,150 Work release in our state is a program 375 00:23:22,234 --> 00:23:24,486 where you can work during the day the regular work hours, 376 00:23:24,569 --> 00:23:26,769 and then you're in county jail while you're not working. 377 00:23:26,822 --> 00:23:30,325 Jeffrey Dahmer was employed at the Ambrosia chocolate factory. 378 00:23:35,163 --> 00:23:38,125 Our office took the position said he should be sentenced for six years. 379 00:23:38,208 --> 00:23:40,210 So we disagreed with the judge on that. 380 00:23:41,628 --> 00:23:45,465 I thought I was pretty aware of people that I couldn't be fooled. 381 00:23:45,549 --> 00:23:47,759 He plenty fooled me, I'll tell ya. 382 00:23:48,677 --> 00:23:50,095 He fooled everyone. 383 00:23:51,054 --> 00:23:53,181 When we look at the Jeffrey Dahmer case, 384 00:23:53,265 --> 00:23:56,685 there are a number of failures by the system, 385 00:23:57,477 --> 00:23:59,271 whether it's probation and parole, 386 00:23:59,354 --> 00:24:02,399 whether it's law enforcement, or whether it's the courts, 387 00:24:02,482 --> 00:24:06,069 that failed to protect the victims. 388 00:24:06,736 --> 00:24:10,198 The boy was only 13 years old when this happened. 389 00:24:11,450 --> 00:24:12,617 Thirteen years old. 390 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,539 There was no way of really knowing 391 00:24:18,165 --> 00:24:21,376 that he had already murdered people. 392 00:24:23,670 --> 00:24:26,298 But when I initially heard 393 00:24:26,381 --> 00:24:28,091 what the judge had done, 394 00:24:28,592 --> 00:24:32,888 my sense was, "Oh okay. Well, we're gonna get him back." 395 00:24:33,597 --> 00:24:36,725 "There's no way we're not gonna see him again." 396 00:24:40,395 --> 00:24:43,523 He had months between the time he was convicted, 397 00:24:43,607 --> 00:24:46,276 and the time he would start to serve his sentence. 398 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,445 It was in that interval 399 00:24:48,528 --> 00:24:51,615 that he continued cruising gay bars 400 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,828 and was doing one-night hookups. 401 00:24:57,579 --> 00:25:00,457 - Still living at Grandma's? - Right. 402 00:25:00,540 --> 00:25:01,540 Okay. 403 00:25:07,756 --> 00:25:11,343 Two months before I was to go into the work release center, 404 00:25:14,304 --> 00:25:16,598 it was closing time at La Cage. 405 00:25:17,098 --> 00:25:18,975 Was it one of your regular bars? 406 00:25:20,352 --> 00:25:24,105 And struck up a conversation with this, uh, Black guy. 407 00:25:25,690 --> 00:25:28,443 - What was his name? - I think his name was Tony. 408 00:25:28,527 --> 00:25:29,945 I think. 409 00:25:30,028 --> 00:25:32,572 That's what he told me his name was anyway. 410 00:25:32,656 --> 00:25:33,698 Tony. 411 00:25:40,872 --> 00:25:44,626 Tony Sears was about 23 or 24. 412 00:25:44,709 --> 00:25:46,711 Tony Sears was a model. 413 00:25:46,795 --> 00:25:48,505 He was very attractive, 414 00:25:49,089 --> 00:25:52,259 and he was always immaculately dressed. 415 00:25:52,342 --> 00:25:54,719 Had the most beautiful hair. 416 00:25:54,803 --> 00:25:57,389 Back in the day, we called them Jheri curls. 417 00:25:58,265 --> 00:26:00,642 He was always upbeat, always energetic. 418 00:26:01,685 --> 00:26:06,273 He was always out for an adventure, always wanted to do something new. 419 00:26:06,356 --> 00:26:09,401 You just never knew where your night was gonna go, 420 00:26:09,484 --> 00:26:11,778 but you knew you were gonna have a good time. 421 00:26:12,988 --> 00:26:14,406 Tony did not have a car, 422 00:26:14,990 --> 00:26:16,783 and so I would go pick him up, 423 00:26:16,866 --> 00:26:18,952 and we would go out to the bars. 424 00:26:24,165 --> 00:26:26,251 So it was a typical Saturday night. 425 00:26:26,334 --> 00:26:28,044 I picked him up at his apartment. 426 00:26:29,170 --> 00:26:31,047 And we were barhopping. 427 00:26:32,340 --> 00:26:35,760 Some point through the evening, we decided to go our separate ways. 428 00:26:36,845 --> 00:26:39,139 We had our agreement that at the end of the night, 429 00:26:39,222 --> 00:26:41,182 we're gonna meet at this spot. 430 00:26:42,976 --> 00:26:44,102 So that's what we did. 431 00:26:47,355 --> 00:26:49,316 When the end of the evening came, 432 00:26:49,399 --> 00:26:52,736 we met up back right on the corner that we always did. 433 00:26:54,696 --> 00:26:56,781 And he had this other guy with him. 434 00:26:59,034 --> 00:27:02,495 He wasn't over good-looking. I wouldn't say he was ugly. 435 00:27:02,579 --> 00:27:04,372 He had just blond hair. 436 00:27:04,873 --> 00:27:06,708 Uh, he was wearing glasses. 437 00:27:08,126 --> 00:27:11,421 We just sat on the corner and talked a bit about our evenings, 438 00:27:11,504 --> 00:27:14,674 who we bumped into, where we went. That sort of thing. 439 00:27:15,717 --> 00:27:17,260 Tony wanted to go to breakfast 440 00:27:17,344 --> 00:27:20,722 'cause he always wanted to have fun, never wanted the night to end. 441 00:27:22,724 --> 00:27:24,559 We had a really nice breakfast, 442 00:27:24,643 --> 00:27:27,145 and then we're dropping them off. 443 00:27:27,228 --> 00:27:29,105 He said it was at his house. 444 00:27:30,357 --> 00:27:33,044 He had a friend, a white man, with him. 445 00:27:33,068 --> 00:27:34,986 And his friend had a car. 446 00:27:35,695 --> 00:27:37,989 And then during the car ride, 447 00:27:38,073 --> 00:27:41,326 he's very affectionate, apparently very drunk. 448 00:27:42,410 --> 00:27:43,620 And we drove 449 00:27:45,205 --> 00:27:46,956 to 57th and Lincoln. 450 00:27:48,375 --> 00:27:51,461 He had me drop them off just at the corner. 451 00:27:53,338 --> 00:27:57,133 There was no specific house or anything. It was literally an intersection. 452 00:27:57,926 --> 00:28:00,595 Then they hopped out. I said goodbye to Tony 453 00:28:00,679 --> 00:28:03,264 and reminded him that if he needed a ride to call me 454 00:28:03,348 --> 00:28:05,225 before such and such a time. 455 00:28:05,308 --> 00:28:07,894 They just walked up the street, and I drove off. 456 00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:16,295 When you did go out that night, though, 457 00:28:16,319 --> 00:28:19,364 and you met this guy, and you decided he seemed a nice guy. 458 00:28:19,447 --> 00:28:20,323 Hmm. 459 00:28:20,407 --> 00:28:23,618 What came into your mind that you wanted to ask him back? 460 00:28:23,702 --> 00:28:27,872 Did you become fearful in any way that it was gonna happen again? 461 00:28:28,957 --> 00:28:32,794 Hm. No. I... I thought that it would just be a regular night. 462 00:28:33,503 --> 00:28:34,671 I brought him back. 463 00:28:34,754 --> 00:28:37,465 My judgment isn't always so good when I'm drinking, 464 00:28:37,549 --> 00:28:39,134 especially when I drink a lot. 465 00:28:39,884 --> 00:28:42,971 Jeffrey brought Tony Sears to his grandmother's house 466 00:28:43,054 --> 00:28:45,473 in West Allis, where he was residing at the time. 467 00:28:48,393 --> 00:28:50,473 And we went up to the bedroom 468 00:28:50,895 --> 00:28:52,605 and laid around. 469 00:28:53,314 --> 00:28:55,233 He was making some comments 470 00:28:55,316 --> 00:28:58,153 about it getting to be early, and he'd have to leave. 471 00:28:59,821 --> 00:29:03,450 I went down and made a cup of coffee 472 00:29:03,533 --> 00:29:04,826 with the pills. 473 00:29:08,913 --> 00:29:10,165 He fell asleep, 474 00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:14,335 and that's when I strangled him. 475 00:29:16,504 --> 00:29:18,423 His grandmother slept through it, had no idea. 476 00:29:20,884 --> 00:29:23,470 His wanting to have a companion 477 00:29:23,553 --> 00:29:25,305 but not wanting them to leave 478 00:29:25,805 --> 00:29:28,266 was very big. It was very powerful for him. 479 00:29:30,685 --> 00:29:33,730 Did it ever get into your mind at that time 480 00:29:33,813 --> 00:29:36,900 that in fact, you had lost him rather than keeping him? 481 00:29:37,484 --> 00:29:38,484 Hmm. 482 00:29:39,319 --> 00:29:42,572 I suppose that that realization did hit me, yeah, but... 483 00:29:42,655 --> 00:29:44,741 - When? - After they were dead. 484 00:29:44,824 --> 00:29:46,159 How did that feel? 485 00:29:46,910 --> 00:29:49,454 Unfulfilling. It felt like a waste. 486 00:29:50,872 --> 00:29:53,833 He always had a way that he found 487 00:29:53,917 --> 00:29:55,919 to dispose of the bodies. 488 00:29:56,419 --> 00:29:58,898 He had a nice-looking face, so I... 489 00:29:58,922 --> 00:30:01,216 With the head, I cut that off, 490 00:30:01,758 --> 00:30:04,886 put it in a large, white barrel, 491 00:30:04,969 --> 00:30:06,846 filled it up with acetone, 492 00:30:07,847 --> 00:30:09,849 and that preserved the head. 493 00:30:10,642 --> 00:30:12,268 Why did you do that this time? 494 00:30:12,352 --> 00:30:16,189 Well, just branching out into different variations. 495 00:30:21,236 --> 00:30:24,405 He kept the full head, not just the skull, 496 00:30:24,489 --> 00:30:26,574 and he also kept his genitals. 497 00:30:27,283 --> 00:30:30,370 And he put them in an airtight container. 498 00:30:31,037 --> 00:30:33,581 And he put it in his locker 499 00:30:33,665 --> 00:30:35,959 at the chocolate plant where he worked. 500 00:30:36,459 --> 00:30:37,752 Most of this time, 501 00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:40,922 Dahmer was sitting in a correctional institution, 502 00:30:41,005 --> 00:30:44,384 at least at night, and was on work release. 503 00:30:44,467 --> 00:30:47,345 This was safer than having it at Grandma's house, 504 00:30:47,428 --> 00:30:49,973 where somebody could stumble upon it. 505 00:30:52,350 --> 00:30:54,990 You kept the genitals, and you kept the head? 506 00:30:55,019 --> 00:30:55,854 Mm-hmm. 507 00:30:55,937 --> 00:30:58,356 Did you still feel as though you had your companion? 508 00:30:59,065 --> 00:31:02,026 This all is so bizarre sounding now to me. 509 00:31:06,322 --> 00:31:07,740 You think you loved Tony? 510 00:31:07,824 --> 00:31:11,953 Yeah, I could say that if I knew how to love, I would have loved him. 511 00:31:12,036 --> 00:31:15,039 It was a matter of trying to preserve what I had left of him. 512 00:31:15,123 --> 00:31:17,101 - What were you hoping for? - Um... 513 00:31:17,125 --> 00:31:20,587 I hoped he would just dry out and stay looking like he did in life, 514 00:31:20,670 --> 00:31:23,006 but it didn't work out that way. 515 00:31:23,089 --> 00:31:27,510 By that time, it was fairly obvious that it didn't look like Tony anymore. 516 00:31:27,594 --> 00:31:30,221 - It was just all shriveled up. - Okay. 517 00:31:31,764 --> 00:31:33,433 But did it still excite you? 518 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,565 No, not as much. The excitement was wearing off. 519 00:31:50,366 --> 00:31:53,453 I was contacted by Tony's sister. 520 00:31:53,536 --> 00:31:56,956 They called and just asked if I'd heard anything from Tony. 521 00:31:57,457 --> 00:32:00,126 And I told them, I said, "No. We were out on Saturday." 522 00:32:00,209 --> 00:32:03,171 "I haven't heard from him." And that was kind of our conversation. 523 00:32:03,755 --> 00:32:06,090 I would say probably a day or two later, 524 00:32:06,174 --> 00:32:09,719 I got another call that they wanted to file a missing persons report. 525 00:32:11,304 --> 00:32:13,473 Because they hadn't heard anything at all. 526 00:32:17,185 --> 00:32:20,104 In the beginning, I was the... the prime suspect 527 00:32:20,188 --> 00:32:22,607 for the reason that I was the last person to see Tony alive. 528 00:32:25,151 --> 00:32:28,196 Tony's family would ask me things like, 529 00:32:28,905 --> 00:32:31,199 "Are you giving us all the details?" 530 00:32:31,282 --> 00:32:33,826 "Does this other person really exist?" 531 00:32:33,910 --> 00:32:35,828 "Or were you just with Tony?" 532 00:32:35,912 --> 00:32:39,916 It was questions like that that started to take a turn with the family. 533 00:32:42,168 --> 00:32:45,088 I also had a lot of friends that I had for quite some time 534 00:32:45,171 --> 00:32:47,298 that started thinking the same thing. 535 00:32:47,382 --> 00:32:50,301 That, you know, maybe I had done something to Tony. 536 00:32:51,427 --> 00:32:54,722 Then the police came back and started coming to visit me, 537 00:32:54,806 --> 00:32:56,641 and starting asking questions. 538 00:32:56,724 --> 00:33:01,479 More about what happened that night, where we went, where he was dropped off. 539 00:33:02,939 --> 00:33:06,025 One of the things that I was forced to do 540 00:33:06,109 --> 00:33:07,694 during the investigation 541 00:33:08,194 --> 00:33:10,780 was go with police officers 542 00:33:11,447 --> 00:33:13,199 to the different bars 543 00:33:13,282 --> 00:33:15,243 to see if I could recognize 544 00:33:15,326 --> 00:33:18,162 who this blond mystery person was. 545 00:33:20,915 --> 00:33:24,794 At that time, the relationship between the gay community and the police 546 00:33:24,877 --> 00:33:26,421 was not the greatest at all. 547 00:33:26,504 --> 00:33:30,967 I thought for sure they would send at least plain-clothed officers. 548 00:33:31,050 --> 00:33:34,220 They were in full uniform. Guns, hats, badges. 549 00:33:34,303 --> 00:33:35,763 You know, he whole thing. 550 00:33:37,765 --> 00:33:40,226 I actually had some of the bar owners ask me, 551 00:33:40,309 --> 00:33:43,104 "You really don't need to come back here," type thing. 552 00:33:43,938 --> 00:33:47,275 The friends are all questioning what's going on and what's happening. 553 00:33:47,358 --> 00:33:50,486 So at... at some point through all that, 554 00:33:50,570 --> 00:33:54,782 um, I decided I had to kind of just get a fresh start. 555 00:33:56,409 --> 00:33:59,495 I basically left my life in Milwaukee behind 556 00:33:59,579 --> 00:34:01,289 and moved out of the city. 557 00:34:04,375 --> 00:34:05,960 I really cared for Tony. 558 00:34:07,211 --> 00:34:08,921 Tony was a great guy. 559 00:34:09,005 --> 00:34:12,550 You know, I figured he and I were gonna be friends for quite some time, 560 00:34:13,051 --> 00:34:14,052 and, um... 561 00:34:14,969 --> 00:34:16,054 I'm sorry. 562 00:34:19,265 --> 00:34:21,184 You know, there's a lot of "what-ifs." 563 00:34:25,188 --> 00:34:26,814 Just the fact that 564 00:34:27,899 --> 00:34:30,485 some of my actions that I did that evening... 565 00:34:31,194 --> 00:34:32,194 Um... 566 00:34:34,655 --> 00:34:36,449 I helped this happen to Tony. 567 00:34:37,533 --> 00:34:40,745 You know, I kinda wish... I wish could take it all back 568 00:34:40,828 --> 00:34:43,456 and make the evening end in a different way. 569 00:34:57,386 --> 00:34:59,806 While Jeff Dahmer remains in police custody, 570 00:34:59,889 --> 00:35:02,266 held on multiple homicide charges, 571 00:35:02,350 --> 00:35:05,269 the DA's office has already started its investigation 572 00:35:05,353 --> 00:35:08,940 into the formal case against the alleged murderer. 573 00:35:10,024 --> 00:35:12,693 A few days after he was arrested, 574 00:35:12,777 --> 00:35:16,697 my boss, Gerry Boyle, wanted someone to walk through the apartment. 575 00:35:16,781 --> 00:35:20,785 He just wanted to make sure that we were watching what they were doing. 576 00:35:21,828 --> 00:35:23,955 And I was nominated as such. 577 00:35:25,123 --> 00:35:28,793 Walking up to the door to his apartment 578 00:35:28,876 --> 00:35:30,378 and going inside, 579 00:35:30,461 --> 00:35:34,465 what went through my mind was, "How could anybody ever live in here?" 580 00:35:36,050 --> 00:35:39,137 The mattress was still there, sopping in blood. 581 00:35:40,221 --> 00:35:42,723 The carpeting, uh, bloodstains. 582 00:35:43,224 --> 00:35:44,976 Wall, bloodstains. 583 00:35:46,060 --> 00:35:50,481 The odor in there was a culmination of death, 584 00:35:50,565 --> 00:35:52,817 with the humidity, the blood. 585 00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:53,985 It was awful. 586 00:35:55,528 --> 00:35:57,572 I had to leave and luckily, 587 00:35:57,655 --> 00:35:59,407 at the end of the hallway 588 00:35:59,490 --> 00:36:01,826 was a fire exit with a staircase, 589 00:36:01,909 --> 00:36:04,162 so I could run out there and, um... 590 00:36:05,288 --> 00:36:07,081 the gagging turned into throwing up. 591 00:36:08,624 --> 00:36:10,126 I was the only woman. 592 00:36:10,626 --> 00:36:12,503 The male officers that were there, 593 00:36:12,587 --> 00:36:14,881 they all stood there, and they all laughed. 594 00:36:14,964 --> 00:36:16,966 They're like, "How you doing on this now?" 595 00:36:17,049 --> 00:36:19,594 "You wanted to come to a crime scene. This is what we get." 596 00:36:21,304 --> 00:36:22,638 It was, um... 597 00:36:23,389 --> 00:36:24,974 terrifying to see 598 00:36:25,057 --> 00:36:26,934 that this was real. 599 00:36:29,395 --> 00:36:30,897 Who knows? At that point, 600 00:36:30,980 --> 00:36:34,483 you know, maybe all of this was a facade and him being polite to me. 601 00:36:34,567 --> 00:36:36,569 And I started to think about that. 602 00:36:37,236 --> 00:36:39,238 What he couldn't control, 603 00:36:39,322 --> 00:36:41,199 his own little demon inside, 604 00:36:41,282 --> 00:36:43,951 is what we actually saw in his apartment. 605 00:36:58,674 --> 00:37:01,111 After I got out of the work release center, 606 00:37:01,135 --> 00:37:04,055 I moved out of Grandma's and into this apartment. 607 00:37:05,556 --> 00:37:08,935 While I was looking for an apartment that looked halfway decent, 608 00:37:10,186 --> 00:37:13,606 I saw the Oxford Apartments, and, uh walked in. 609 00:37:13,689 --> 00:37:16,525 They had a "for rent" sign in front. 610 00:37:16,609 --> 00:37:18,986 And, uh, I moved in 611 00:37:19,070 --> 00:37:20,863 in May of '90, I guess. 612 00:37:22,365 --> 00:37:24,909 Had the movers bring my TV, and uh... 613 00:37:25,868 --> 00:37:30,748 and a big chest that I had with all my possessions in it. 614 00:37:30,831 --> 00:37:32,511 Things you had at Grandma's house? 615 00:37:32,541 --> 00:37:35,962 Mm-hmm. In my mind, I had my own place, 616 00:37:36,045 --> 00:37:38,089 someplace nice and private 617 00:37:38,172 --> 00:37:40,967 where I could just take someone back, 618 00:37:41,050 --> 00:37:43,678 drug them, and then strangle them. 619 00:37:52,186 --> 00:37:55,398 Milwaukee has always been one of those types of cities 620 00:37:55,481 --> 00:37:57,525 where it's very hypersegregated. 621 00:37:59,652 --> 00:38:02,113 Blacks lived on one side of the town, 622 00:38:02,196 --> 00:38:05,574 while whites lived on the other side of the town and in the suburbs. 623 00:38:06,993 --> 00:38:11,372 And Dahmer lived in this apartment complex called the Oxford Apartments, 624 00:38:12,498 --> 00:38:16,544 but it was a lot of African Americans who lived in that building. 625 00:38:22,550 --> 00:38:24,802 The first time that I met Jeff 626 00:38:26,178 --> 00:38:30,266 we had been living there for maybe... maybe two weeks or so. 627 00:38:31,559 --> 00:38:34,270 And he made it known to me 628 00:38:34,353 --> 00:38:37,273 that he had just moved from West Allis, 629 00:38:37,356 --> 00:38:40,067 and that he had broken up with his girlfriend. 630 00:38:41,694 --> 00:38:43,404 And I took a liking to him 631 00:38:43,988 --> 00:38:46,282 because he looked so clean-cut. 632 00:38:47,033 --> 00:38:48,534 He looked so mild. 633 00:38:49,535 --> 00:38:51,871 He looked like a young Clark Kent. 634 00:38:53,122 --> 00:38:56,876 He was the only single white male in the building. 635 00:38:58,627 --> 00:39:02,298 I never thought it to be strange or weird 636 00:39:03,007 --> 00:39:04,383 that he was there. 637 00:39:04,467 --> 00:39:06,677 To me, he was just an average guy 638 00:39:07,345 --> 00:39:09,221 trying to keep his head above water. 639 00:39:10,931 --> 00:39:12,350 There was one time 640 00:39:13,059 --> 00:39:15,353 when I did try to introduce him 641 00:39:15,436 --> 00:39:16,645 to a lady. 642 00:39:18,314 --> 00:39:21,692 She lived downstairs, and she had a crush on Jeff. 643 00:39:22,985 --> 00:39:24,862 And so she told me, she said, 644 00:39:24,945 --> 00:39:27,615 "Why don't you see if your neighbor across the hall 645 00:39:27,698 --> 00:39:29,784 wanna come over and play cards with us?" 646 00:39:31,619 --> 00:39:33,496 So I went and knocked on his door. 647 00:39:34,455 --> 00:39:38,501 I said, "I'm over here playing cards. Hey, man, I'm getting my butt kicked." 648 00:39:39,168 --> 00:39:40,669 "You know, by these women." 649 00:39:40,753 --> 00:39:44,131 "I could really use another guy who would come and help me." 650 00:39:45,591 --> 00:39:48,677 And he straight out told me that he didn't wanna come over. 651 00:39:49,428 --> 00:39:53,182 So I said, "Well, one of the women there, she kind of like you." 652 00:39:53,265 --> 00:39:56,018 "And it'd be a chance for you guys to talk." 653 00:39:57,728 --> 00:40:00,773 He flat-out told me that he was not interested 654 00:40:00,856 --> 00:40:02,733 in talking to her. 655 00:40:02,817 --> 00:40:06,904 I thought, "Well, hey. This guy must really, really be stuck on 656 00:40:06,987 --> 00:40:09,657 that other woman in West Allis." 657 00:40:11,951 --> 00:40:14,870 It didn't take very long for me to notice 658 00:40:14,954 --> 00:40:16,789 that Jeff was a loner, 659 00:40:16,872 --> 00:40:19,125 and that he kept to himself. 660 00:40:19,208 --> 00:40:22,753 And he... he wasn't a party type guy. 661 00:40:23,587 --> 00:40:25,548 - You and Timmy. - That's right. 662 00:40:25,631 --> 00:40:27,191 - And who is this? - Jeff. 663 00:40:27,216 --> 00:40:28,616 - That's cousin Jeff. - Hey. 664 00:40:28,676 --> 00:40:29,510 Yes. 665 00:40:31,679 --> 00:40:33,931 Jeffrey was able to fool people 666 00:40:34,014 --> 00:40:36,642 in situations where it was critically important to do that. 667 00:40:40,187 --> 00:40:43,649 Looks like a bunch of satisfied people sitting around here. 668 00:40:44,567 --> 00:40:46,944 Even with Grandma or his dad. 669 00:40:47,528 --> 00:40:50,698 Of course, you woke up at what, eight this morning? 670 00:40:50,781 --> 00:40:55,578 Then you... you cleaned up your apartment so you could show us what it looks like. 671 00:40:55,661 --> 00:40:58,122 Yeah, I want you to come over if you feel like it. 672 00:40:58,205 --> 00:41:01,834 I haven't done any dusting or vacuuming. I do that on Sundays. 673 00:41:03,169 --> 00:41:06,922 Dahmer could be an engaging person. He enticed many people into his apartment. 674 00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:10,718 But they had no idea 675 00:41:10,801 --> 00:41:14,096 they were walking into a viper's nest when they went to his apartment. 676 00:41:17,349 --> 00:41:20,561 Is this the first person you took pictures of? 677 00:41:20,644 --> 00:41:21,896 Yeah, yeah. 678 00:41:22,730 --> 00:41:26,317 The nickname was "Cash D," I think. I don't know his real name. 679 00:41:27,985 --> 00:41:31,363 What did you use to take the pictures? You had a camera? 680 00:41:32,114 --> 00:41:35,159 It was a Polaroid. A Polaroid camera. 681 00:41:36,702 --> 00:41:38,412 In Dahmer's apartment, 682 00:41:38,496 --> 00:41:41,290 there were a number of albums that were present, 683 00:41:41,373 --> 00:41:46,337 and these were a series of organized Polaroid photographs 684 00:41:46,420 --> 00:41:49,590 that depicted Dahmer's previous victims 685 00:41:50,132 --> 00:41:53,552 before, during, and after dissection. 686 00:41:54,845 --> 00:41:57,348 Jeffrey took the photos 687 00:41:57,431 --> 00:42:00,851 of individuals that he favored the most. 688 00:42:01,435 --> 00:42:05,231 He put them in different poses because it would show the physique. 689 00:42:05,314 --> 00:42:08,484 There were various parts of various individuals 690 00:42:08,567 --> 00:42:12,905 that he favored more than other ones, and so he took photos of it. 691 00:42:14,323 --> 00:42:17,535 - How long did this last? - About an hour. 692 00:42:17,618 --> 00:42:19,858 - Of just taking photographs? - Mm-hmm. 693 00:42:21,163 --> 00:42:23,749 When I saw the Polaroids that Jeffrey took, 694 00:42:23,832 --> 00:42:25,125 I... I was horrified. 695 00:42:25,834 --> 00:42:28,045 Some of them were very intense. 696 00:42:29,004 --> 00:42:31,757 To see people cut in real life, 697 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:36,637 it takes on a whole different, uh, scope, a whole different level. 698 00:42:38,138 --> 00:42:39,640 I had nightmares with it. 699 00:42:42,017 --> 00:42:43,769 But I wanted to stay professional. 700 00:42:46,188 --> 00:42:49,942 I... I was just thinking, you know, "How am I gonna get through this?" 701 00:42:51,068 --> 00:42:52,903 "I don't have anybody to talk to about it." 702 00:42:54,822 --> 00:42:58,200 It just felt like a waste to me to destroy someone 703 00:42:58,284 --> 00:43:01,078 that looked so nice. 704 00:43:01,161 --> 00:43:03,539 But by that time, I had no choice. 705 00:43:03,622 --> 00:43:04,957 He was dead, 706 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,210 and I had to find some way to dispose of the remains. 707 00:43:10,296 --> 00:43:14,883 He now realized he had a different problem than at he had at his grandmother's house 708 00:43:14,967 --> 00:43:17,386 because he wasn't gonna be able to use a sledgehammer 709 00:43:17,469 --> 00:43:19,722 to break up bones in an apartment. 710 00:43:20,764 --> 00:43:22,766 A day or two later, 711 00:43:22,850 --> 00:43:27,104 I went out and bought this large, 80-gallon kettle 712 00:43:27,855 --> 00:43:30,024 from one of the restaurant's supply. 713 00:43:31,108 --> 00:43:32,943 He could then boil 714 00:43:33,027 --> 00:43:35,404 what was left of the body. 715 00:43:36,572 --> 00:43:40,701 And this began his more sophisticated production 716 00:43:40,784 --> 00:43:42,453 of body disposal. 717 00:43:44,330 --> 00:43:46,874 I mean, makes you sick even talking about it, 718 00:43:46,957 --> 00:43:50,044 but he'd get rid of the... the bones in acid. 719 00:43:50,586 --> 00:43:52,838 That's why you got a huge barrel? 720 00:43:52,921 --> 00:43:54,798 So you could put the acid in for the bones? 721 00:43:55,299 --> 00:43:57,217 Yeah, that... It was 722 00:43:57,843 --> 00:43:59,637 a trash barrel. It's... 723 00:44:00,137 --> 00:44:02,890 So you put the bones in there, and it would just... 724 00:44:02,973 --> 00:44:05,059 Turn into a slush 725 00:44:05,142 --> 00:44:08,270 that then could be scooped out into the toilet 726 00:44:08,354 --> 00:44:09,521 and flushed down. 727 00:44:10,522 --> 00:44:13,067 - What did you do with the skull? - Kept that. 728 00:44:13,150 --> 00:44:15,903 - Where'd you keep it? - In the closet area. 729 00:44:21,450 --> 00:44:25,496 Jeff became more than just the neighbor across the hall. 730 00:44:28,499 --> 00:44:31,752 I liked him because I felt that he had a soft heart. 731 00:44:32,753 --> 00:44:34,463 There was one time 732 00:44:34,546 --> 00:44:37,591 when my sister was getting married. 733 00:44:38,717 --> 00:44:41,261 I didn't have any money to get a gift for her. 734 00:44:42,596 --> 00:44:44,348 I knocked on Jeff's door, 735 00:44:45,015 --> 00:44:49,228 and I told him, "You know, I'm getting ready to go to my sister's wedding." 736 00:44:49,311 --> 00:44:53,148 And I said, "Is it possible you can loan me some money to get her a gift?" 737 00:44:55,234 --> 00:44:56,777 He gave me $60. 738 00:44:57,319 --> 00:44:59,488 Told me, "Don't even worry about it." 739 00:45:00,364 --> 00:45:02,950 He said, "Get your sister something nice." 740 00:45:03,867 --> 00:45:06,328 I knew nothing about his past. 741 00:45:07,538 --> 00:45:10,582 How many people know what their neighbor does 742 00:45:10,666 --> 00:45:13,252 once they go inside and close their door? 743 00:45:13,752 --> 00:45:16,797 You can only go by 744 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:18,298 what you see, 745 00:45:18,924 --> 00:45:22,261 and what you hear from out of their mouth. 746 00:45:33,814 --> 00:45:37,359 Jeff, what do we know about the suspect? He's 31 years old? 747 00:45:37,443 --> 00:45:38,694 He's 31 years old. 748 00:45:38,777 --> 00:45:41,655 Neighbors talked briefly about him to me during the night. 749 00:45:41,739 --> 00:45:45,284 They said they didn't really know him. They described him as strange, a loner, 750 00:45:45,367 --> 00:45:48,245 uh, but they did say he had a job and worked every day. 751 00:45:50,497 --> 00:45:52,291 The night of his arrest, 752 00:45:53,917 --> 00:45:56,628 we had no idea of why they were there. 753 00:45:57,463 --> 00:46:00,132 And when I asked one of the officers, 754 00:46:00,841 --> 00:46:02,176 "Is Jeff okay?" 755 00:46:02,801 --> 00:46:05,095 He said, "Yeah, that fucker's okay." 756 00:46:08,307 --> 00:46:09,808 I was standing there 757 00:46:10,893 --> 00:46:13,687 watching them take the body parts 758 00:46:13,771 --> 00:46:16,148 that were in little small boxes. 759 00:46:16,732 --> 00:46:19,568 A little bit bigger than a shoe box, all brown. 760 00:46:19,651 --> 00:46:22,404 Taking the boxes out two and three at a time. 761 00:46:22,488 --> 00:46:24,782 Two and three at a time, taking the boxes out. 762 00:46:26,325 --> 00:46:29,369 Turns out that Jeff 763 00:46:29,453 --> 00:46:31,955 is actually Jeffrey Dahmer, 764 00:46:32,039 --> 00:46:34,249 who has murdered men 765 00:46:34,333 --> 00:46:36,752 inside apartment 213. 766 00:46:39,087 --> 00:46:42,299 The parts, box after box of dismembered human remains, 767 00:46:42,382 --> 00:46:43,383 were taken away 768 00:46:43,467 --> 00:46:46,094 Now the job is to identify the victims. 769 00:46:46,178 --> 00:46:48,722 At this time, we have no identifications 770 00:46:48,806 --> 00:46:52,184 on any of the, uh, specimens that we have recovered. 771 00:46:54,228 --> 00:46:57,773 At that time, there was no such thing as DNA 772 00:46:57,856 --> 00:47:01,693 that was accessible to a routine, regular medical examiner. 773 00:47:02,444 --> 00:47:05,697 So we were using dental analysis, 774 00:47:05,781 --> 00:47:07,533 and fingerprints, 775 00:47:07,616 --> 00:47:09,535 and personal effects, 776 00:47:09,618 --> 00:47:13,372 uh, tattoos, surgical scars, etc. 777 00:47:13,455 --> 00:47:16,083 in our trying to identify these victims. 778 00:47:19,086 --> 00:47:21,588 Putting the skeletons back together 779 00:47:21,672 --> 00:47:23,674 was like putting a puzzle together. 780 00:47:25,551 --> 00:47:29,221 Forensic anthropologists could tell us age, race, sex, 781 00:47:29,304 --> 00:47:33,433 and also help us interpret some of the injuries that we were seeing. 782 00:47:33,517 --> 00:47:35,060 Once investigators here 783 00:47:35,143 --> 00:47:38,772 are able to put together physical descriptions of the victims, 784 00:47:38,856 --> 00:47:41,775 that information will be fed into a computer 785 00:47:41,859 --> 00:47:45,988 and cross-referenced with the descriptions of missing persons around the country. 786 00:47:46,905 --> 00:47:49,408 Now there had been reports 787 00:47:49,491 --> 00:47:52,286 of a number of missing persons 788 00:47:52,369 --> 00:47:54,705 over the previous year and a half. 789 00:47:55,330 --> 00:47:57,791 And so we had a manifest 790 00:47:57,875 --> 00:47:59,877 of potential victims. 791 00:48:00,502 --> 00:48:02,546 After Jeffrey was arrested, 792 00:48:02,629 --> 00:48:04,840 we have 300 calls a day from people 793 00:48:04,923 --> 00:48:07,759 asking what happened to their child, 794 00:48:07,843 --> 00:48:10,304 or if he knew anything about their children. 795 00:48:10,888 --> 00:48:13,649 People are concerned tonight, people who lived in the area, 796 00:48:13,682 --> 00:48:16,310 people who have loved ones who have been missing in this case. 797 00:48:16,393 --> 00:48:18,270 They have started showing up this afternoon 798 00:48:18,353 --> 00:48:21,315 at the scene of that crime at 25th and Kilbourn. 799 00:48:21,398 --> 00:48:24,109 We were just out here looking, just by chance. 800 00:48:24,192 --> 00:48:27,696 It might not be so, but it might be so. We're looking for leads ourself. 801 00:48:28,488 --> 00:48:32,910 We would check with the medical examiner 802 00:48:32,993 --> 00:48:35,370 who tried to put the parts together. 803 00:48:36,413 --> 00:48:38,540 Once we had that information, 804 00:48:39,333 --> 00:48:41,376 and if we had a picture of him, 805 00:48:41,460 --> 00:48:43,503 we would show the photos to Dahmer 806 00:48:43,587 --> 00:48:46,423 in an attempt to identify these people. 807 00:48:47,424 --> 00:48:49,176 It was a monumental task. 808 00:48:49,718 --> 00:48:53,013 He would explain in great detail every victim. 809 00:48:53,805 --> 00:48:57,809 There certainly were victims that we would not have been able 810 00:48:57,893 --> 00:49:01,647 to connect to Dahmer without his cooperation. 811 00:49:01,730 --> 00:49:04,208 Henry Smith has searched for his brother in gay bars 812 00:49:04,232 --> 00:49:06,234 in both Milwaukee and Chicago, 813 00:49:06,318 --> 00:49:08,195 but so far has turned up nothing. 814 00:49:09,154 --> 00:49:12,741 It was often you walk in a bar and people say, 815 00:49:13,742 --> 00:49:16,036 "Child! Another one missing." 816 00:49:16,119 --> 00:49:18,789 And you say, "What? Who's missing now?" 817 00:49:18,872 --> 00:49:21,291 Because Milwaukee's so small, 818 00:49:22,125 --> 00:49:24,002 especially the Black gays. 819 00:49:24,836 --> 00:49:28,548 So if you didn't see somebody for two, three weeks, 820 00:49:28,632 --> 00:49:30,175 you figured they'd moved. 821 00:49:32,219 --> 00:49:34,388 But then it was almost 822 00:49:34,972 --> 00:49:38,225 I would say weekly, somebody else was saying, 823 00:49:38,308 --> 00:49:39,726 "So and so is gone." 824 00:49:41,061 --> 00:49:44,022 I was seeing Eddie Smith all the time. 825 00:49:44,773 --> 00:49:47,943 And all of a sudden, he was gone. 826 00:49:48,527 --> 00:49:51,780 Me myself, I don't... I don't think he's out there. 827 00:49:51,863 --> 00:49:55,200 Carolyn Smith is praying that her fears don't come true. 828 00:49:55,283 --> 00:49:59,496 Her 28-year-old brother Eddie was last seen a year ago on June 16, 829 00:49:59,579 --> 00:50:02,624 the day he went to go watch Milwaukee's Gay Pride parade. 830 00:50:03,208 --> 00:50:05,544 Eddie's sister came to the bar. 831 00:50:06,628 --> 00:50:09,423 She would ask people. She had pictures. 832 00:50:09,506 --> 00:50:12,509 She was like, "He would have called somebody." 833 00:50:12,592 --> 00:50:15,804 "I know he would have called me. I talk to my brother every day." 834 00:50:16,763 --> 00:50:19,307 While Ernest Miller grew up here in Milwaukee, 835 00:50:19,391 --> 00:50:22,352 he was about to return to Chicago when he suddenly disappeared. 836 00:50:23,645 --> 00:50:26,231 Ernest Miller, another young man. 837 00:50:26,314 --> 00:50:28,400 Ernest had a good soul. 838 00:50:28,942 --> 00:50:30,485 He was very creative. 839 00:50:30,569 --> 00:50:34,906 So of course, when Ernest came up missing, that was talk in the bars too. 840 00:50:35,657 --> 00:50:38,217 Eighteen-year-old Curtis Straughter lived in this home 841 00:50:38,243 --> 00:50:39,828 with his grandmother on the north side. 842 00:50:39,911 --> 00:50:42,539 She last saw him about five months ago. 843 00:50:45,876 --> 00:50:47,335 In those days, 844 00:50:47,419 --> 00:50:51,256 you could buy cigarettes in a cigarette machine in the bars. 845 00:50:52,799 --> 00:50:58,263 They used to have missing persons posters on the cigarette machine. 846 00:50:59,139 --> 00:51:02,601 These were missing posters of adults who had completely vanished. 847 00:51:02,684 --> 00:51:06,313 And their family members, their friends were trying to track them down. 848 00:51:06,396 --> 00:51:08,607 Fight back! Fight AIDS! 849 00:51:08,690 --> 00:51:12,110 But the years in which Dahmer was most active in Milwaukee 850 00:51:12,194 --> 00:51:13,737 coincide with years 851 00:51:13,820 --> 00:51:17,908 where the number of AIDS deaths in Wisconsin increased ten times over. 852 00:51:19,117 --> 00:51:21,578 So people would literally just disappear. 853 00:51:22,996 --> 00:51:24,456 Were they dead? 854 00:51:24,539 --> 00:51:27,626 Were they sick? Had they moved away? No one would know. 855 00:51:27,709 --> 00:51:30,212 Gay rights right now! Gay rights right now! 856 00:51:30,295 --> 00:51:31,797 Gay rights right now! 857 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:33,715 Dahmer had a rare opportunity, 858 00:51:34,674 --> 00:51:36,593 a rare window in time 859 00:51:38,970 --> 00:51:41,389 where people were vanishing in the community, 860 00:51:43,225 --> 00:51:44,518 but no one knew why. 861 00:51:45,477 --> 00:51:48,021 Jeffrey Dahmer was known to the Hughes family too. 862 00:51:48,105 --> 00:51:50,440 Friends of Tony Hughes, a deaf-mute, 863 00:51:50,524 --> 00:51:53,485 have told Tony's mother and sister that they saw Tony leave this bar 864 00:51:53,568 --> 00:51:54,903 with a blond man. 865 00:52:04,121 --> 00:52:07,415 Tony was unable to hear or speak, 866 00:52:07,499 --> 00:52:09,000 but he'd write notes. 867 00:52:09,084 --> 00:52:11,711 He always had a pad and paper. 868 00:52:12,504 --> 00:52:15,340 Whenever you were in his presence, you wanted to have fun 869 00:52:15,423 --> 00:52:17,008 because he was having fun. 870 00:52:18,927 --> 00:52:22,514 Tony knew Jeff for a long time. 871 00:52:23,723 --> 00:52:28,019 And Tony and Jeff had had relations. 872 00:52:28,103 --> 00:52:30,063 Tony told me so. 873 00:52:32,190 --> 00:52:35,777 It was Memorial Day weekend of 1991. 874 00:52:38,321 --> 00:52:39,948 Tony Hughes and I 875 00:52:40,490 --> 00:52:43,660 were together in a bar called The Phoenix. 876 00:52:44,911 --> 00:52:47,539 We were sitting at the bar having cocktails, 877 00:52:48,165 --> 00:52:50,834 and Jeff came in the back door. Jeffrey Dahmer. 878 00:52:52,669 --> 00:52:54,212 When Jeff walked in, 879 00:52:54,754 --> 00:52:58,341 Tony got up from the bar and approached him. 880 00:53:00,385 --> 00:53:05,182 Tony left me and went to follow Jeff on the dance floor. 881 00:53:06,933 --> 00:53:09,644 And that was the last time I saw Tony Hughes. 882 00:53:19,404 --> 00:53:21,907 Jeff discussed all of the victims with me. 883 00:53:22,991 --> 00:53:26,453 However, it takes time to get that rapport and that trust 884 00:53:26,536 --> 00:53:29,247 until you really feel like you can discuss 885 00:53:29,331 --> 00:53:32,500 all those inside secrets with people. 886 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,172 With the deaf-mute guy, 887 00:53:37,881 --> 00:53:40,217 I wanted to keep him with me, 888 00:53:41,176 --> 00:53:44,763 so I gave him the drink with the pills in it. 889 00:53:45,305 --> 00:53:46,806 He fell asleep, 890 00:53:46,890 --> 00:53:49,851 and I wanted to see 891 00:53:49,935 --> 00:53:52,145 if I could, uh, think of a way 892 00:53:52,229 --> 00:53:53,939 to keep him with me 893 00:53:54,022 --> 00:53:57,025 without actually, you know, killing him. 894 00:53:57,859 --> 00:54:02,030 Once we got to that point where he felt real comfortable with me, 895 00:54:02,113 --> 00:54:05,200 there was, in fact, additional things that came out from him 896 00:54:05,283 --> 00:54:07,494 that didn't come out with the police. 897 00:54:08,453 --> 00:54:10,247 And so, uh... 898 00:54:10,330 --> 00:54:11,665 I had a drill at home. 899 00:54:12,457 --> 00:54:13,833 And, uh... 900 00:54:13,917 --> 00:54:15,627 It's gonna sound bad, 901 00:54:16,253 --> 00:54:17,253 but, uh... 902 00:54:18,004 --> 00:54:20,173 Should I say it or not? 903 00:54:21,841 --> 00:54:23,843 I took the drill while he was asleep 904 00:54:23,927 --> 00:54:27,013 and drilled a small hole in his skull, 905 00:54:27,639 --> 00:54:28,974 to see if I could, 906 00:54:29,975 --> 00:54:32,102 uh, make it so that he would, uh... 907 00:54:32,894 --> 00:54:36,106 just sorta be like, uh, in a zombie state. 908 00:54:37,941 --> 00:54:41,069 I think he truly believed that if he could keep one of them alive, 909 00:54:41,152 --> 00:54:43,280 like doing this crude lobotomy, 910 00:54:43,363 --> 00:54:46,741 that it would be sufficient to satisfy his needs. 911 00:54:48,535 --> 00:54:50,036 I was flabbergasted. 912 00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:53,498 I mean, to hear that was more than I could stand. 913 00:54:53,581 --> 00:54:56,751 In fact, one of the psychologists, uh, 914 00:54:56,835 --> 00:54:59,045 that we were working with, 915 00:54:59,129 --> 00:55:01,965 uh, Kenneth Smail, I... I made him stay. 916 00:55:02,048 --> 00:55:04,402 Jeff, where did you get that idea? 917 00:55:04,426 --> 00:55:07,595 Uh, it came from my own thoughts. 918 00:55:08,972 --> 00:55:10,056 Uh... 919 00:55:10,140 --> 00:55:13,685 Just in my own thinking that I thought maybe it would work, 920 00:55:13,768 --> 00:55:15,437 because I didn't wanna keep 921 00:55:16,396 --> 00:55:20,233 killing people and not have anything left except the skull. 922 00:55:22,736 --> 00:55:26,114 He wanted to take the person's will away is the way he would put it. 923 00:55:26,197 --> 00:55:28,575 It's astounding. It's jaw-dropping. 924 00:55:29,909 --> 00:55:33,204 He then injected muriatic acid 925 00:55:33,288 --> 00:55:35,248 through that hole in the skull. 926 00:55:36,916 --> 00:55:39,836 Mr. Hughes died from that injection. 927 00:55:39,919 --> 00:55:42,297 It wasn't necessary to strangle him later. 928 00:55:43,465 --> 00:55:46,217 And Dahmer kept the skull long term. 929 00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:48,678 In fact, that was one of the skulls 930 00:55:48,762 --> 00:55:51,097 still in his apartment at the time of his arrest. 931 00:55:57,854 --> 00:55:59,439 It saddens me 932 00:55:59,522 --> 00:56:01,191 every time I think about 933 00:56:01,274 --> 00:56:03,026 any of those gentlemen. 934 00:56:04,277 --> 00:56:07,072 Because like everybody else during that time, 935 00:56:07,155 --> 00:56:09,115 they were trying to find themselves. 936 00:56:10,408 --> 00:56:12,619 They weren't expecting to get killed. 937 00:56:13,578 --> 00:56:15,705 These were, in most cases, 938 00:56:15,789 --> 00:56:18,917 uh, poor, gay men 939 00:56:19,501 --> 00:56:22,504 who probably didn't have a large support system, 940 00:56:23,129 --> 00:56:26,424 or whose support system when they said that, 941 00:56:26,508 --> 00:56:28,009 "My loved one is missing," 942 00:56:28,093 --> 00:56:31,429 the attention was not given to them the way it should've been. 943 00:56:32,972 --> 00:56:35,725 Authorities are wondering how anyone could have committed 944 00:56:35,809 --> 00:56:36,643 these gruesome acts, 945 00:56:36,726 --> 00:56:40,063 just as others in Milwaukee are wondering how police couldn't have known. 946 00:56:40,146 --> 00:56:44,192 Especially since Dahmer was a convicted sex offender out on parole. 947 00:56:47,904 --> 00:56:49,906 I was in the bars often. 948 00:56:50,698 --> 00:56:52,826 Nobody asked me about anybody. 949 00:56:53,410 --> 00:56:57,038 I didn't have any police officer, any detective, 950 00:56:57,122 --> 00:56:58,540 come up to me and say, 951 00:56:58,623 --> 00:57:01,251 "What do you know about this person or that person?" 952 00:57:02,460 --> 00:57:05,463 This wasn't a couple of months or a couple of weeks. 953 00:57:06,589 --> 00:57:08,133 This went on for years. 954 00:57:08,925 --> 00:57:11,678 How could one man kill so many for so long 955 00:57:11,761 --> 00:57:13,805 without being detected by police? 956 00:57:13,888 --> 00:57:17,600 The answer in part, according to some, is a law-enforcement community 957 00:57:17,684 --> 00:57:20,478 which is slow to investigate gay-related crime. 958 00:57:21,563 --> 00:57:24,441 If the victims had been white 959 00:57:24,524 --> 00:57:25,733 and straight, 960 00:57:26,818 --> 00:57:30,155 the search would have been more in-depth, 961 00:57:30,238 --> 00:57:31,698 more specific. 962 00:57:32,323 --> 00:57:33,783 Bitter charges of racism, 963 00:57:33,867 --> 00:57:36,369 a belief many of the killings could've been stopped. 964 00:57:36,453 --> 00:57:38,246 It just shows you the feeling 965 00:57:38,329 --> 00:57:41,166 towards the minority community, like we're a burden. 966 00:57:41,958 --> 00:57:44,836 The families that didn't think the police did enough... 967 00:57:46,629 --> 00:57:48,965 To be honest, I think some of them might have had a point. 968 00:57:49,048 --> 00:57:51,301 I think there was this feeling, 969 00:57:51,384 --> 00:57:53,303 it's a 20-year-old guy 970 00:57:53,386 --> 00:57:56,264 that was going to the bars and picking up guys. 971 00:57:56,347 --> 00:57:58,808 And so who knows where he is? 972 00:58:00,393 --> 00:58:03,438 There's a real question as to whether the police department 973 00:58:03,521 --> 00:58:05,899 sufficiently followed up on those missing people. 974 00:58:06,566 --> 00:58:09,360 Did they just assume that they were into trouble 975 00:58:09,444 --> 00:58:11,529 and not worth following up on? 976 00:58:11,613 --> 00:58:14,365 If they would have listened to people of color, 977 00:58:14,449 --> 00:58:17,994 they could have really saved a lot of young people's lives. 978 00:58:18,786 --> 00:58:23,625 I went out and bought a five-foot square freezer. 979 00:58:23,708 --> 00:58:26,586 What made you think that you wanted to do this? 980 00:58:27,504 --> 00:58:30,465 Because I was preparing for more.