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WWW.MY-SUBS.CO
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Fire department.
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Yes, could you send an ambulance
on the corner of 25th and State?
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What's the problem?
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There's this butt-naked young boy
or man, or whatever.
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He's still out, and people's trying
to help him stand. He can't stand.
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He has no clothes on. He's very hurt.
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- Is he awake?
- He ain't awake.
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They trying to get him to walk,
but he can't walk straight,
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can't even see straight.
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Anytime he stand up, he falls.
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- 25th and State?
- Yeah.
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- All right. Okay.
- The one-way. Okay. Bye.
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What happened that night,
it's unbelievable.
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Here's this young man, naked,
outside Dahmer's apartment building.
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He had not a stitch of clothing on.
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Two people summoned
the fire department and the police
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because some of them saw he had blood
running out of his rectum.
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He had a scrape on his knee.
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He was clearly dazed from something.
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Why is this boy,
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naked, bleeding, and incoherent
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on the streets of Milwaukee?
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We had a mall called the Grand Avenue,
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and Jeffrey Dahmer
was in the mall all the time.
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We would see him in the food court,
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walking up and down the mall.
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He took pictures of people,
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and he'd say,
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"You look like a model.
Want me to take your picture?"
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Dahmer was sitting
having pizza and a beer
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when he saw an attractive young man,
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Konerak Sinthasomphone, come by,
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whom he engaged in conversation.
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He offered the young man $50
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to pose for pictures.
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And the young man
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agreed to go back
to Dahmer's apartment with him.
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In the apartment,
Dahmer hands him this drink
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with the amount of Halcion
that was able to
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render him unconscious for a while.
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Dahmer wanted to keep this victim alive
as long as he could.
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In my sessions with him,
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Mr. Dahmer told me what he wanted
was somebody perfectly compliant,
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who would stay with him
without fear of leaving.
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There were a few
where I tried the drilling technique.
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And I did the drilling with him too.
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You did?
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Mm-hmm.
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At what point?
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- Uh...
- Before the officers came or after?
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Yeah, before the officers came.
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Jeffrey told me about, uh, Konerak,
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and how he made some adjustments
and changes in his method
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in an effort to make him into a zombie
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that would actually live.
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Dahmer drilled a hole
in his skull,
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injected muriatic acid
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and was waiting to see
if he'd succeeded this time,
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because the others
died from that injection.
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How far
you think you penetrated with the drill?
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- All the way to the brain.
- Two or three inches?
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- Yeah.
- And you went straight down?
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- Right. Mm-mm.
- Nothing came out?
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- No fluid of any kind?
- No fluid that I could see.
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And no bleeding either.
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Konerak actually was able
to function to a limited degree.
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He was groggy and everything.
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He wasn't dead or anything, and he talked.
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I thought maybe I'd be able
to keep him that way.
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Jeff would just tell him
what he wanted him to do, and it worked.
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What Jeff didn't take into consideration
was the fact
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that he might run
outside of the apartment.
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Dahmer went out to get liquor.
He often did while doing these crimes.
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In this particular case,
he left to get some beer at a nearby bar.
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While Dahmer is out getting beer,
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Konerak takes the opportunity
to run out of the house
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and up the alley.
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That's when a neighbor
looks out her window and sees him.
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The women call the police.
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The police arrive,
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and Konerak is now sitting
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with a blanket around him at the scene.
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And the officers are approaching
to find out what's going on.
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Police officers tried
to question Konerak.
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Konerak can't really communicate
his side of the story
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'cause he's been drugged.
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There was nothing
that would indicate
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that there was a hole in his head
that Dahmer put there.
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There was no blood flowing from it.
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And while that was going on,
Dahmer came up the street.
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These young women interceded.
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They asked Konerak,
"What's your name?" He couldn't talk.
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That's when they got between them
and said, "Stay away from him."
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Two 18-year-old Black girls
protecting him from Dahmer.
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The police don't listen to those girls.
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They didn't even take their names.
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Kept telling them to be quiet. That they'd
arrest them if they kept talking.
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Dahmer grabbed his arm and said,
"No, he's my boyfriend,"
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and started to take him back.
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Dahmer figured that,
as a white guy,
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"I could tell these officers
my version of the story."
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And I have to believe he believed that
because he knew that,
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"I'm white,
and I could get away with this."
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Jeffrey always had
a quick response.
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It seemed kind of natural to him
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to have that ability to manipulate
and get himself out of bad situations.
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Now you got a naked guy
out in the streets,
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making noises.
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The police thought
he was drunker than a billy goat.
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So what did they do?
They don't just leave him.
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They take him into a place of safety,
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the apartment from whence he came.
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So they go into the apartment.
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Konerak sat on the couch
as if this was his place.
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Konerak's clothes
are all in a little pile,
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neatly laid out
somewhere in the living room.
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Dahmer shows the officers
photographs that he took of this young man
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and said that was...
You know, that was his lover.
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They say, "We're not gonna arrest
these two guys for being gay."
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"Ain't gonna happen."
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And they left Sinthasomphone
on the couch at Dahmer's home
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and never looked in the bedroom.
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Little do those officers know
that in Dahmer's bedroom,
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Tony Hughes's dead body
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is on the bed just laying there.
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The police left, and shortly thereafter
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Dahmer injected more of this acid
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into the brain of Konerak Sinthasomphone.
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What you put in?
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Konerak, I filled a syringe
with muriatic acid.
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I used the acid again in a lesser dosage,
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but it was still too much the second time
after I injected the second amount in.
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One of the girls
who tried to protect Konerak
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went home and told her mother,
Glenda Cleveland.
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- Milwaukee Police.
- Yes, uh...
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Uh, there was a squad car, number 50,
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that was flagged down earlier
this evening, about 15 minutes ago.
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- That was me.
- What happened?
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I mean, my daughter and my niece, uh,
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witnessed what was going on.
Was anything done about the situation?
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Nope. It's an intoxicated,
uh, boyfriend
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of another boyfriend.
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How old was this child?
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- It wasn't a child. It was an adult.
- Are you sure?
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Ma'am, I can't make it
any more clear. It's all taken care of.
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Sinthasomphone died.
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He died within an hour
after the police left the apartment.
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Konerak Sinthasomphone
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was 14 years old and was
one of the youngest of Dahmer's victims.
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If they thought for a moment
that he was at risk,
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they would never have let him
go back with Dahmer, ever.
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The police officers had been told
to be respectful
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of the gay community in Milwaukee.
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And I think they probably were thinking
they were being respectful,
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and not bringing a heterosexual bias
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to the situation.
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Whatever the police did,
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obviously, it wasn't enough.
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You have a number
of African Americans
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basically saying
that this young man is underage,
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that he didn't appear
to be in his right state of mind.
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People say they were doing their jobs,
just doing the best they could.
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That falls very far short
of what they should have done.
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If they'd run his name,
they'd have found he was on probation
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for assaulting a Laotian boy,
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who would turn out
to be Konerak's brother.
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How... How does this happen?
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Twice victimized
by Jeffrey Dahmer,
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one of Konerak's brothers had been
molested by Dahmer three years ago.
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The family came to America 11 years ago
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with dreams of a better life.
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Instead, Jeffrey Dahmer
has given them a grisly nightmare.
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He said, "It... It seems
almost more than coincidence."
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However, it was something
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that really shocked Jeff
when he heard that.
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He just was... was floored by it.
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The Eurasians,
it's just amazing they were brothers.
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It's... It's incredible.
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I can't believe it.
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- Are you saying it's his brother?
- Mm-hmm.
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- You know what his name was?
- No.
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Sure don't.
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It's a horrible tragedy
for the Sinthasomphone family.
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A sexual assault victim
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and a separate murder victim
in the same family.
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It's hard to fathom
what that family had to go through
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at the hands of Jeffrey Dahmer.
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After Dahmer was arrested
in July of '91,
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the community was in an uproar
when they found out
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that the police had released Konerak
back to Dahmer.
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Glenda Cleveland
called the police station
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again and again over the next week or so.
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She said,
"My daughter saw this boy naked,"
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just believing that he had been
sexually assaulted.
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I was a young reporter at the Sentinel
when the Dahmer case broke.
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Somebody wanted to talk about Dahmer,
and I said, "I can talk to you."
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The person on the phone
was Glenda Cleveland.
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She tells me this story
that they had tried to protect this boy,
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and the police wouldn't listen to them.
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I called a captain at the police station.
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I was expecting him to just deny it,
but they didn't.
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They said, "Yes,
this matter's under investigation."
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How could the police
give that boy back to that man?
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They handed that
minority male back to Dahmer,
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but they took the word of the white male
over five Black witnesses.
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I have concluded that the officers failed
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to properly perform their duties
as required by the rules and regulations
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of the Milwaukee Police Department.
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The two police officers,
John Balcerzak and Joe Gabrish,
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were fired from the Milwaukee
Police Department.
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It was turmoil in
the police department. The city was torn.
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Some people supported the officers.
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We are behind our police officers 100%.
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Much of the white community
is not convinced
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that racism is a problem
in the police department.
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They are rallying behind the police,
even as the charges grow louder.
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I personally feel that there is
equal and fair treatment done
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throughout the community by our officers.
They're trained that way.
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I don't think that the officers
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made a decision based upon any race,
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any homophobia.
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Obviously in retrospect,
the officers made a mistake,
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but there was a lot of people
that Dahmer had conned.
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And he conned those officers that night.
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And I'm sure those officers
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have second-guessed that many times.
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People have pointed
to the radio transmission by the officers
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right after the contact.
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The intoxicated Asian naked male...
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...was returned
to his sober boyfriend.
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It'll be a minute. My partner's
gonna get deloused at the station.
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You hear officers
laughing in the background.
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I think that what they did was a travesty.
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That gets back to the root
of how we view homosexuality.
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Gay people were made fun of.
They were the butt of the joke.
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But then the two police officers
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went to circuit court
to appeal their firing.
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The court agreed with them,
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reinstated them with back pay.
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The Konerak Sinthasomphone case
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shed a spotlight on Milwaukee.
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This was telling them a lot
about their community.
243
00:15:01,901 --> 00:15:05,195
It was telling them a lot
about the police protection
244
00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:06,655
that they were offered.
245
00:15:07,323 --> 00:15:09,199
This was a very scary episode.
246
00:15:21,378 --> 00:15:25,341
After Mr. Dahmer
killed, uh, this young Laotian lad,
247
00:15:26,342 --> 00:15:28,719
bodies were piling up in his apartment.
248
00:15:30,804 --> 00:15:34,058
Dahmer went on
to kill four more people.
249
00:15:35,017 --> 00:15:37,978
At first, it was nine years
between his homicides.
250
00:15:38,062 --> 00:15:41,273
Then it was months.
After Konerak, it was weeks.
251
00:15:43,108 --> 00:15:45,428
An hour before I had to go to work,
252
00:15:45,486 --> 00:15:48,489
I was trying to decide
whether to strangle him then,
253
00:15:48,572 --> 00:15:51,033
or keep him alive during the night.
254
00:15:51,825 --> 00:15:54,620
And I chose the latter and missed work.
255
00:15:55,996 --> 00:15:58,999
And was fired that Sunday.
256
00:15:59,083 --> 00:16:01,043
And that was the domino.
257
00:16:01,126 --> 00:16:04,546
The first domino that started
the whole chain reaction falling.
258
00:16:08,884 --> 00:16:11,178
He had started drinking more
259
00:16:11,261 --> 00:16:13,597
and spiraling down.
260
00:16:15,808 --> 00:16:18,852
I noticed that I wasn't seeing him
261
00:16:19,853 --> 00:16:22,356
as often as before he lost his job.
262
00:16:24,316 --> 00:16:29,029
And I would actually go
to knock on his door to check on him.
263
00:16:29,613 --> 00:16:33,784
And I would notice
the peephole would go dark.
264
00:16:35,452 --> 00:16:36,829
Then it'd go back light.
265
00:16:37,329 --> 00:16:39,498
And I knew that he came to the door,
266
00:16:39,581 --> 00:16:40,833
and that he saw me.
267
00:16:40,916 --> 00:16:43,919
He knew that it was me
knocking on the door,
268
00:16:44,712 --> 00:16:46,588
and he didn't open the door for me.
269
00:16:47,089 --> 00:16:49,925
So I... I took it upon myself
270
00:16:50,009 --> 00:16:52,970
to think that he wanted me to go away,
271
00:16:53,804 --> 00:16:54,972
which I did.
272
00:16:57,766 --> 00:17:01,353
A couple of the doctors said,
"Yes, he was definitely an alcoholic."
273
00:17:02,354 --> 00:17:04,064
He had an addictive personality.
274
00:17:04,940 --> 00:17:08,485
I think he had
the same addiction to the killing.
275
00:17:08,569 --> 00:17:11,447
As it grew and grew and grew,
276
00:17:11,530 --> 00:17:14,158
he needed it more and more and more.
277
00:17:14,241 --> 00:17:16,118
He reached a point of time
278
00:17:16,201 --> 00:17:19,663
where he was consistently having to go out
279
00:17:19,747 --> 00:17:23,459
and deal with yet another individual,
280
00:17:23,542 --> 00:17:26,837
and not disposing of the other ones
he'd already killed.
281
00:17:28,505 --> 00:17:31,109
When I was
dismembering him in the tub,
282
00:17:31,133 --> 00:17:33,343
I didn't finish the job in one night.
283
00:17:34,553 --> 00:17:37,347
I was in too much of a rush
to get it done.
284
00:17:41,977 --> 00:17:46,231
He was getting so overwhelmed
with what he was doing
285
00:17:46,315 --> 00:17:49,485
that he had no more control of the scene.
286
00:17:50,819 --> 00:17:54,198
He was showering with two people
in the bottom of the tub.
287
00:17:54,698 --> 00:17:58,452
I asked him, "Why didn't you get rid of
the bodies before you went after another?"
288
00:17:58,535 --> 00:18:01,205
He said, "I couldn't help it.
I needed the excitement of it."
289
00:18:02,831 --> 00:18:05,125
It was important that I was nonjudgmental,
290
00:18:05,709 --> 00:18:09,046
and that I didn't put him into a position
291
00:18:09,129 --> 00:18:10,964
that would stop him from talking.
292
00:18:11,924 --> 00:18:16,470
But hearing the graphic detail
from Jeffrey Dahmer
293
00:18:16,553 --> 00:18:19,056
was a challenge.
294
00:18:20,766 --> 00:18:23,206
- Did it excite you?
- Yeah, it did.
295
00:18:24,019 --> 00:18:26,396
Yeah, just to see the inside.
296
00:18:27,773 --> 00:18:29,983
It grew through time
297
00:18:30,067 --> 00:18:32,945
where it wasn't
just having sex with a corpse,
298
00:18:33,654 --> 00:18:36,865
but it was opening the viscera of the body
299
00:18:36,949 --> 00:18:40,244
and... and, uh, having sex right there
300
00:18:40,327 --> 00:18:42,830
with the insides of the person.
301
00:18:44,498 --> 00:18:46,500
There were times where it was
302
00:18:46,583 --> 00:18:49,920
very, very difficult to listen to,
303
00:18:50,504 --> 00:18:54,758
and to pretend like, you know,
uh, this isn't affecting me.
304
00:18:56,093 --> 00:18:58,929
I almost got in trouble because
305
00:19:00,639 --> 00:19:03,267
that smell apparently alerted neighbors.
306
00:19:07,729 --> 00:19:10,983
One night, I was sleeping,
307
00:19:11,066 --> 00:19:15,028
and this horrible smell
woke me up about 2:30 in the morning.
308
00:19:16,071 --> 00:19:17,531
And I opened the door,
309
00:19:17,614 --> 00:19:20,784
and I could see a mist.
310
00:19:22,202 --> 00:19:26,165
You ever watch a movie, a scary movie
where you're in the graveyard,
311
00:19:26,248 --> 00:19:30,252
and they got the, you know, coming up?
That's what I saw.
312
00:19:31,378 --> 00:19:32,504
I closed the door,
313
00:19:33,005 --> 00:19:36,341
I took a towel,
and I covered the bottom of the door.
314
00:19:36,425 --> 00:19:37,926
So then I went back to bed.
315
00:19:39,761 --> 00:19:43,807
And when I woke up,
I told my wife Pam about the smell,
316
00:19:43,891 --> 00:19:48,312
and she said, "I'm gonna find out today
where it's coming from."
317
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:51,565
Later, she said,
318
00:19:51,648 --> 00:19:53,275
"I sniffed the door hinges."
319
00:19:53,358 --> 00:19:55,777
"And the smell's
coming from Jeff's apartment."
320
00:19:57,321 --> 00:20:03,202
She took a lawn chair, and she sat
in our apartment with our door open,
321
00:20:03,285 --> 00:20:05,287
waiting for Jeff to come home.
322
00:20:05,871 --> 00:20:09,291
When he came home,
she confronted him about the smell.
323
00:20:09,374 --> 00:20:12,836
And he said that his freezer
had quit working,
324
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,964
and the meat spoiled in his freezer.
325
00:20:17,257 --> 00:20:18,634
And so I asked him,
326
00:20:18,717 --> 00:20:22,095
"Don't you got a warranty on that thing?
How long have you had it?"
327
00:20:23,388 --> 00:20:25,468
Did they ever come and inquire?
328
00:20:26,058 --> 00:20:28,352
- Yeah, they did.
- What happened?
329
00:20:28,435 --> 00:20:31,063
I told them
the freezer went on the blink.
330
00:20:35,943 --> 00:20:39,905
He used a variety of means
to keep what he could
331
00:20:40,906 --> 00:20:43,158
of the men he found attractive.
332
00:20:43,242 --> 00:20:46,536
And that included
taking photographs of them
333
00:20:46,620 --> 00:20:48,956
when they were unconscious or dead,
334
00:20:49,456 --> 00:20:52,834
removing parts of them
that he would preserve.
335
00:20:52,918 --> 00:20:56,546
And it included eventually
336
00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:58,924
some cannibalization.
337
00:21:00,342 --> 00:21:02,779
Did you select
what you decided to keep?
338
00:21:02,803 --> 00:21:04,054
How did you select that?
339
00:21:05,597 --> 00:21:07,849
Just the meatiest-looking parts.
340
00:21:07,933 --> 00:21:10,644
The parts with the least amount of fat.
341
00:21:11,603 --> 00:21:14,856
- So the biceps, thighs, calves?
- Right. Mm-hmm.
342
00:21:17,109 --> 00:21:21,321
The eating of victims is part of
the very disturbed thinking that developed
343
00:21:21,405 --> 00:21:25,659
once Mr. Dahmer gave up on the idea
that he could fight the urge to kill.
344
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,039
There were various body parts
he'd thought about eating,
345
00:21:31,123 --> 00:21:32,708
including a human heart.
346
00:21:34,167 --> 00:21:36,712
So you took out
the heart and the liver,
347
00:21:36,795 --> 00:21:39,214
and you preserved that and his thigh.
348
00:21:39,298 --> 00:21:41,091
What did you do with the rest of it then?
349
00:21:41,174 --> 00:21:44,344
I kept about 50 pounds.
The rest went in the trash.
350
00:21:44,428 --> 00:21:47,389
How many pounds
would you estimate you've eaten?
351
00:21:47,472 --> 00:21:48,932
Total, about...
352
00:21:50,183 --> 00:21:51,183
ten.
353
00:21:52,352 --> 00:21:54,855
At one point, he drank human blood, again,
354
00:21:54,938 --> 00:21:58,817
somehow thinking in his disturbed way
that this was gonna connect him
355
00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:01,486
with the blood of the people
that he was consuming.
356
00:22:01,987 --> 00:22:05,407
His thinking was,
"Somehow, if I ingest these souls,
357
00:22:05,490 --> 00:22:07,659
they will still live on through me."
358
00:22:09,036 --> 00:22:12,456
If anybody looked
it looked like you just stocked up.
359
00:22:12,539 --> 00:22:15,375
So it looked
just like supermarket meat.
360
00:22:16,251 --> 00:22:17,753
I froze it for a while.
361
00:22:17,836 --> 00:22:19,212
Maybe a month.
362
00:22:19,296 --> 00:22:21,298
Or not that long. A couple weeks.
363
00:22:22,883 --> 00:22:25,135
Oh my God. I had no idea
364
00:22:25,719 --> 00:22:29,181
that this is what was occurring
right across the hall
365
00:22:29,264 --> 00:22:30,724
from where we lived.
366
00:22:31,892 --> 00:22:35,020
Everyone in the building felt suckered.
367
00:22:36,438 --> 00:22:40,567
We all felt
that Jeffrey Dahmer had played us.
368
00:22:41,860 --> 00:22:43,570
It's really hard
369
00:22:44,321 --> 00:22:46,490
to become fond of someone
370
00:22:47,282 --> 00:22:53,246
to find out that actually
that person had a dagger in your back.
371
00:22:54,164 --> 00:22:56,375
I thought this guy was my friend.
372
00:23:01,088 --> 00:23:05,133
People who live in the
building are in a state of shock tonight.
373
00:23:05,217 --> 00:23:06,802
They simply cannot believe
374
00:23:06,885 --> 00:23:10,639
that a crime of this magnitude
was going on right next door.
375
00:23:11,223 --> 00:23:14,351
The race question in
the Jeffrey Dahmer story was raised today,
376
00:23:14,434 --> 00:23:16,353
since most of the murder victims
were Black,
377
00:23:16,436 --> 00:23:19,147
and since it happened
in a largely Black neighborhood.
378
00:23:19,231 --> 00:23:22,526
The racism is the key
because the consistent thing,
379
00:23:22,609 --> 00:23:25,445
above the sex with the corpse,
above the number,
380
00:23:25,529 --> 00:23:26,947
is the consistency
381
00:23:27,030 --> 00:23:29,366
that these were Black young men.
382
00:23:30,242 --> 00:23:33,578
Dahmer said his ideal victim
was a young, athletic Black male,
383
00:23:34,704 --> 00:23:37,416
but his first two victims were white.
384
00:23:37,499 --> 00:23:40,710
He had Hispanic victims.
He had Asian victims.
385
00:23:41,420 --> 00:23:45,298
He was attracted to people of color.
This wasn't some hate crime.
386
00:23:45,382 --> 00:23:48,093
He was trying
to become involved intimately
387
00:23:48,176 --> 00:23:50,846
with the sort of person
towards whom he was attracted.
388
00:23:52,681 --> 00:23:55,142
I don't know
what was in Dahmer's mind.
389
00:23:56,935 --> 00:23:59,187
Was he a racist? Who cares?
390
00:23:59,271 --> 00:24:00,772
He killed Black people.
391
00:24:00,856 --> 00:24:02,607
He killed people of color.
392
00:24:02,691 --> 00:24:04,067
He killed gay people.
393
00:24:05,277 --> 00:24:08,238
In my opinion,
what matters is that he took the lives
394
00:24:08,321 --> 00:24:11,867
of a lot of people
that should still be alive today.
395
00:24:23,587 --> 00:24:27,382
With today's technology, the trial
will be beamed through outer space
396
00:24:27,466 --> 00:24:29,926
to other countries in a matter of seconds.
397
00:24:30,010 --> 00:24:32,929
The line people in England have used
is that Jeffrey Dahmer
398
00:24:33,013 --> 00:24:36,308
has made sure that Milwaukee's
not just gonna be famous for beer.
399
00:24:36,391 --> 00:24:38,685
It's now gonna be famous
for serial killers.
400
00:24:40,270 --> 00:24:44,191
Dahmer confessed
to killing 17 people altogether.
401
00:24:46,067 --> 00:24:48,111
Dahmer entered a plea of guilty.
402
00:24:48,195 --> 00:24:52,199
The only issue now
was whether he was sane or insane.
403
00:24:52,282 --> 00:24:55,410
Dahmer's plea was,
"Yes, I did the murders, but I'm insane."
404
00:24:57,120 --> 00:24:58,788
The trial was a big event.
405
00:24:58,872 --> 00:25:02,584
It had drawn a lot of reporters.
Family members were there.
406
00:25:04,753 --> 00:25:08,048
It was now, you know, the big show.
407
00:25:09,424 --> 00:25:13,553
Michael McCann was the DA at the time
that conducted the trial for the state.
408
00:25:18,058 --> 00:25:20,560
Gerry Boyle
was Dahmer's defense attorney,
409
00:25:20,644 --> 00:25:23,271
and a powerhouse
in delivering an argument to a jury.
410
00:25:23,355 --> 00:25:25,357
And I knew he'd be a tough guy.
411
00:25:26,566 --> 00:25:30,153
I can still remember what
it was like to sit with the other media
412
00:25:30,237 --> 00:25:31,597
at the Milwaukee County Courthouse
413
00:25:31,655 --> 00:25:35,283
when we were waiting
for Dahmer's initial appearance in court.
414
00:25:36,326 --> 00:25:40,872
This was going to be the first time
that we were going to see him in person.
415
00:25:43,083 --> 00:25:46,628
We were expecting like,
you know, maybe Charles Manson,
416
00:25:47,337 --> 00:25:49,714
but Dahmer was a good-looking man.
417
00:25:51,049 --> 00:25:52,509
He was subdued.
418
00:25:53,301 --> 00:25:57,264
He... didn't look like a serial killer.
419
00:25:59,140 --> 00:26:02,310
I think there was the hope
from Dahmer's father
420
00:26:02,394 --> 00:26:05,522
that there's some understanding
that he did this
421
00:26:05,605 --> 00:26:07,941
because of a mental disease.
422
00:26:08,775 --> 00:26:12,696
Lionel was hoping that the court
could give Jeffrey the help he needed.
423
00:26:13,196 --> 00:26:14,739
Everyone please rise.
424
00:26:17,284 --> 00:26:21,246
Hear ye, Circuit court branch 33
in Milwaukee County's now in session,
425
00:26:21,329 --> 00:26:23,748
the Honorable Laurence C. Gram
here presiding.
426
00:26:24,291 --> 00:26:27,419
The burden to show the insanity
was on the defense.
427
00:26:28,670 --> 00:26:31,089
In an insanity plea,
the defense presents first.
428
00:26:31,172 --> 00:26:33,675
Very different from the typical
burden of proof.
429
00:26:34,551 --> 00:26:36,928
I accept the responsibility
430
00:26:37,012 --> 00:26:38,388
of proving to you
431
00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:41,641
that this was not an evil man.
432
00:26:41,725 --> 00:26:44,144
This was a sick man.
433
00:26:45,604 --> 00:26:48,523
My duty and my goal were to prove
434
00:26:48,607 --> 00:26:52,777
that he was insane
during the commission of these offenses.
435
00:26:52,861 --> 00:26:56,781
That when he killed somebody,
he was suffering from mental illness.
436
00:26:57,324 --> 00:27:00,410
And this is what I see
about this Jeffrey Dahmer
437
00:27:01,244 --> 00:27:02,996
as a total human being.
438
00:27:03,538 --> 00:27:06,875
A person who's into fantasy, drugging,
439
00:27:06,958 --> 00:27:09,294
keeping skulls in locker, cannibalism,
440
00:27:09,377 --> 00:27:12,172
sexual urges, drilling,
making zombies, necrophilia.
441
00:27:13,048 --> 00:27:16,009
Of course,
by an average person's view
442
00:27:16,509 --> 00:27:19,679
he was insane. He was a cannibal.
He was a serial killer.
443
00:27:20,180 --> 00:27:23,433
But by the criminal standard of insanity,
444
00:27:24,476 --> 00:27:25,935
was he insane?
445
00:27:26,019 --> 00:27:29,689
Did he meet the legal definition?
That was an open question.
446
00:27:29,773 --> 00:27:33,610
Before a person can be found insane
under the law,
447
00:27:34,736 --> 00:27:38,114
he must suffer
from a mental illness or defect,
448
00:27:38,198 --> 00:27:41,826
and they lack substantial capacity
449
00:27:41,910 --> 00:27:45,121
to understand the difference
between right and wrong.
450
00:27:45,205 --> 00:27:49,292
Or they're unable to control their conduct
451
00:27:49,376 --> 00:27:51,252
to the requirements of the law.
452
00:27:52,212 --> 00:27:57,133
I went to Chicago, and I got Dr. Wahlstrom
and was able to bring him in on the case.
453
00:27:57,217 --> 00:28:00,428
The defendant's personality structure,
454
00:28:00,512 --> 00:28:03,723
his underlying way
of looking at the world and himself,
455
00:28:03,807 --> 00:28:06,059
is diagnosed and meets the criteria
456
00:28:06,142 --> 00:28:08,853
for schizotypal
and borderline personality disorders.
457
00:28:08,937 --> 00:28:10,217
Tell us what that means.
458
00:28:10,939 --> 00:28:15,235
They have frantic attempts
to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
459
00:28:15,318 --> 00:28:16,945
And in this case,
460
00:28:17,028 --> 00:28:20,782
it's the most extreme example
of those kind of frantic attempts.
461
00:28:21,366 --> 00:28:24,202
Dahmer didn't want people
to leave him,
462
00:28:24,285 --> 00:28:25,704
but to stay with him.
463
00:28:25,787 --> 00:28:29,624
That feeling of abandonment,
I think a part of that goes to
464
00:28:29,708 --> 00:28:33,378
why he kept the body parts of his victims.
465
00:28:33,962 --> 00:28:36,297
He saved the bones. He saved the skulls.
466
00:28:37,048 --> 00:28:39,134
He saved the hands.
467
00:28:39,718 --> 00:28:43,471
Jeff indicated that it...
it was for a shrine.
468
00:28:45,682 --> 00:28:47,892
I have this pedestal.
469
00:28:47,976 --> 00:28:50,270
This black pedestal.
470
00:28:50,854 --> 00:28:55,859
And I had a, uh,
black, round top on top of it,
471
00:28:55,942 --> 00:28:59,404
and I had the skulls
set up on top of that, around it.
472
00:29:01,990 --> 00:29:04,951
It was just, uh, a remembrance of, uh...
473
00:29:06,536 --> 00:29:09,289
the people.
A keepsake of each one of them.
474
00:29:11,458 --> 00:29:15,086
It was my own, yeah,
private little world. Yeah.
475
00:29:17,338 --> 00:29:19,048
I had complete control.
476
00:29:21,968 --> 00:29:25,096
That's about the ultimate control
you can have.
477
00:29:30,685 --> 00:29:33,271
This is, in fact,
478
00:29:33,354 --> 00:29:35,273
the picture of what he drew.
479
00:29:38,902 --> 00:29:41,154
And as you see here,
480
00:29:41,237 --> 00:29:43,198
he signed it below.
481
00:29:44,491 --> 00:29:46,618
Did you feel by keeping the skulls,
482
00:29:46,701 --> 00:29:50,205
and if you would've
actually accomplished this shrine,
483
00:29:50,288 --> 00:29:52,874
that you would've felt less lonely,
484
00:29:52,957 --> 00:29:55,335
like you were being kept company,
that they were there?
485
00:29:55,418 --> 00:30:00,173
I think that
must have, yeah, been, uh, my thinking.
486
00:30:02,383 --> 00:30:06,471
Jeffrey's building the shrine
was all about power and control for him.
487
00:30:06,554 --> 00:30:10,600
And that each trait that he liked
out of each one of them
488
00:30:10,683 --> 00:30:14,020
was something that was now
internalized into his own life.
489
00:30:14,103 --> 00:30:18,066
That was a bizarre delusion
that he thought that he could take
490
00:30:18,149 --> 00:30:22,654
the skulls and the bones of victims
491
00:30:23,738 --> 00:30:26,407
and create a power center
492
00:30:26,491 --> 00:30:29,744
in which he would be able
to get special powers.
493
00:30:29,828 --> 00:30:32,580
We're trying to win an insanity defense.
494
00:30:32,664 --> 00:30:34,582
This was where he lost control.
495
00:30:35,250 --> 00:30:37,418
We're trying to show that, you know,
496
00:30:37,502 --> 00:30:40,129
he didn't have
that rational thought anymore.
497
00:30:42,465 --> 00:30:45,301
I believe he had
a mental disease, necrophilia,
498
00:30:45,385 --> 00:30:48,972
a very rare and, uh, possibly dangerous
psychiatric condition.
499
00:30:49,931 --> 00:30:53,268
This is a human being
with a horrible psychiatric disorder
500
00:30:53,351 --> 00:30:56,896
who is really struggling very hard
not to allow that disorder
501
00:30:56,980 --> 00:30:59,983
to bring him to the point
where he's harming other people.
502
00:31:00,066 --> 00:31:01,526
Obviously, he lost that battle.
503
00:31:01,609 --> 00:31:03,069
In my professional opinion,
504
00:31:03,152 --> 00:31:06,865
Mr. Dahmer did lack substantial capacity
to conform his behavior
505
00:31:06,948 --> 00:31:08,616
to the requirements of law.
506
00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:12,287
But I believe they met, at that time,
the statutory requirements
507
00:31:12,370 --> 00:31:15,623
for an insanity defense.
And I still believe that today.
508
00:31:16,457 --> 00:31:19,878
I was approached
by the district attorney's office
509
00:31:19,961 --> 00:31:22,088
to evaluate Mr. Dahmer.
510
00:31:22,171 --> 00:31:24,299
At the time of each of the killings,
511
00:31:24,382 --> 00:31:28,303
he did have the capacity
not to do the killing.
512
00:31:28,386 --> 00:31:32,265
There was no force pushing him to kill.
513
00:31:32,974 --> 00:31:35,143
There was merely a desire
514
00:31:35,226 --> 00:31:37,645
to spend more time with the victim.
515
00:31:37,729 --> 00:31:40,940
If the victim had agreed voluntarily
to stay with him,
516
00:31:41,024 --> 00:31:43,109
he would not have done the killing.
517
00:31:43,192 --> 00:31:47,447
That's an indication
that he could control his behavior.
518
00:31:48,615 --> 00:31:51,492
I didn't think Dahmer had a mental disease
519
00:31:51,576 --> 00:31:53,286
or mental illness.
520
00:31:53,369 --> 00:31:54,913
Did he know it was wrong?
521
00:31:55,413 --> 00:31:58,541
Well, here's how I'm sure
he knew it was wrong.
522
00:31:58,625 --> 00:32:01,669
He said he knew it was wrong at that time.
523
00:32:02,503 --> 00:32:04,255
Every single one of them.
524
00:32:04,339 --> 00:32:08,217
He took steps for every single one
of the charged homicides
525
00:32:08,301 --> 00:32:10,929
to make sure that he wouldn't get caught.
526
00:32:11,012 --> 00:32:14,933
They included putting in
fake security cameras
527
00:32:15,016 --> 00:32:18,478
to deter people from breaking in
while he was at work.
528
00:32:18,561 --> 00:32:21,356
They included disposing of evidence.
529
00:32:21,439 --> 00:32:25,443
They included pulling the curtains
while he's dismembering bodies.
530
00:32:26,361 --> 00:32:29,864
The many, many steps
to try to evade detection.
531
00:32:30,657 --> 00:32:32,784
And in order to kill,
532
00:32:32,867 --> 00:32:36,704
he had to overcome his inhibition
against it by getting drunk.
533
00:32:38,331 --> 00:32:40,416
All the psychiatrists
agreed basically
534
00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:43,002
that he was an alcoholic, necrophilic.
535
00:32:43,086 --> 00:32:47,006
Agreed he knew it was wrong,
but disagreed he couldn't control himself.
536
00:32:48,049 --> 00:32:50,843
For me, the trial was very
537
00:32:50,927 --> 00:32:52,470
anxiety-provoking.
538
00:32:53,096 --> 00:32:55,014
I was sitting next to... to Jeff.
539
00:32:55,098 --> 00:32:58,101
When he did have questions,
he would talk to me.
540
00:32:59,811 --> 00:33:03,564
Wendy Patrickus played a prominent role
to soften Jeffrey Dahmer's image.
541
00:33:04,232 --> 00:33:06,776
Having a young woman sitting there
542
00:33:06,859 --> 00:33:09,278
made Jeffrey Dahmer look
a little less threatening.
543
00:33:09,362 --> 00:33:12,115
And I think that was part of the intention
to show the jury
544
00:33:12,198 --> 00:33:16,244
that Jeffrey Dahmer was not quite
the monster many had made him out to be.
545
00:33:18,579 --> 00:33:21,165
I had issues during the course
546
00:33:21,249 --> 00:33:23,084
of representing Jeffrey Dahmer.
547
00:33:24,043 --> 00:33:27,380
I received death threats
from a number of different sources.
548
00:33:30,216 --> 00:33:34,721
There was really only one time I felt like
some of the threats became real.
549
00:33:35,888 --> 00:33:39,684
One of the victim's family members,
when I was out one night,
550
00:33:39,767 --> 00:33:41,728
came after me with a pool cue
551
00:33:41,811 --> 00:33:43,813
because I was representing Jeff.
552
00:33:44,605 --> 00:33:47,525
I said, "You do understand that's
just a job. That's a position."
553
00:33:47,608 --> 00:33:48,943
"I didn't kill your brother."
554
00:33:49,027 --> 00:33:53,489
Uh, she couldn't, or wouldn't,
discern the difference between the two.
555
00:33:53,573 --> 00:33:56,451
She just, you know, came after me.
556
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,788
It did cause me to, uh,
escalate my concern
557
00:34:00,872 --> 00:34:02,290
during the trial,
558
00:34:02,832 --> 00:34:05,793
and pretty much
become a homebody at that point.
559
00:34:10,590 --> 00:34:14,010
Dahmer's father and stepmother
came every day to the trial.
560
00:34:14,844 --> 00:34:17,346
And you could tell
the trial got to them.
561
00:34:18,014 --> 00:34:21,225
Doctor would be on the stand
quoting from his confession,
562
00:34:22,268 --> 00:34:25,563
and it was the most appalling information.
563
00:34:26,814 --> 00:34:28,858
You'd see it on his father's face.
564
00:34:30,401 --> 00:34:33,529
And there Lionel Dahmer sat with Shari,
565
00:34:33,613 --> 00:34:34,781
his second wife,
566
00:34:34,864 --> 00:34:37,825
looking behind his son,
remaining behind his son.
567
00:34:41,287 --> 00:34:43,623
The trial went two weeks.
568
00:34:44,248 --> 00:34:46,375
He's out of control.
569
00:34:47,418 --> 00:34:50,338
He could not stop.
570
00:34:50,922 --> 00:34:53,382
He was a runaway train
571
00:34:54,509 --> 00:34:57,220
on a track of madness.
572
00:34:57,804 --> 00:35:00,056
It isn't, "Is he sane or insane?"
573
00:35:00,139 --> 00:35:04,143
It's, "Did he prove to a reasonable
certainty that he was insane?"
574
00:35:04,227 --> 00:35:06,354
If he didn't, the answer is no.
575
00:35:06,437 --> 00:35:08,439
You don't have to make a finding
that he was sane.
576
00:35:08,523 --> 00:35:11,192
You're not being asked
to make a finding that he was sane.
577
00:35:11,275 --> 00:35:12,755
You're being asked to make a finding,
578
00:35:12,819 --> 00:35:15,905
"Did he prove to a reasonable certainty
that he was insane?"
579
00:35:15,988 --> 00:35:17,490
That's the issue before you.
580
00:35:18,533 --> 00:35:22,745
After all the testimony was in,
the jury went in to deliberate.
581
00:35:23,704 --> 00:35:26,582
Is Dahmer legally not guilty
because of mental disease?
582
00:35:26,666 --> 00:35:28,751
That's what the jury must sort out.
583
00:35:28,835 --> 00:35:31,838
I think juries and people in general
are often concerned
584
00:35:31,921 --> 00:35:34,090
if someone's found
not criminally responsible,
585
00:35:34,173 --> 00:35:36,008
and they go to a mental institution,
586
00:35:36,092 --> 00:35:38,678
that they're gonna come out
and hurt people again.
587
00:35:38,761 --> 00:35:44,725
Even if you're successfully treated
while you're in a mental institution,
588
00:35:44,809 --> 00:35:47,979
the court would have to sign off
before you re-enter the community.
589
00:35:48,938 --> 00:35:52,692
In a case such as Mr. Dahmer's,
I find it exceedingly unlikely
590
00:35:52,775 --> 00:35:55,987
that a court would've approved him
going back into the community.
591
00:35:56,571 --> 00:35:59,198
Few would place bets
on the decision they'll reach.
592
00:35:59,282 --> 00:36:00,992
They're gonna find him insane.
593
00:36:01,075 --> 00:36:03,411
I think they're probably gonna vote
that he's sane.
594
00:36:03,494 --> 00:36:05,705
Which way do you think
the jury's gonna go?
595
00:36:05,788 --> 00:36:06,789
No clue.
596
00:36:06,873 --> 00:36:09,584
It went to the jury on Friday,
and it was late Saturday afternoon
597
00:36:09,667 --> 00:36:11,502
before they came back.
598
00:36:11,586 --> 00:36:15,882
They looked at all the evidence.
They were very adamant in their decision.
599
00:36:15,965 --> 00:36:20,094
In a hushed courtroom in Milwaukee today,
the jury rendered its decision
600
00:36:20,178 --> 00:36:23,389
in one of the most grisly
and widely-followed murder trials
601
00:36:23,472 --> 00:36:24,932
in modern history.
602
00:36:25,016 --> 00:36:27,226
The verdict. Jeffrey Dahmer was sane
603
00:36:27,310 --> 00:36:29,937
when he killed and dismembered
men and boys
604
00:36:30,021 --> 00:36:33,691
in a gruesome quest for companionship
and sexual gratification.
605
00:36:34,525 --> 00:36:36,110
That's something that troubled me.
606
00:36:37,653 --> 00:36:41,991
If a man who is preoccupied
with having sex with corpses,
607
00:36:42,074 --> 00:36:44,994
if a man who's drilling holes
in the heads of human beings
608
00:36:45,077 --> 00:36:48,414
to try to keep them alive
in a zombie-like state
609
00:36:49,373 --> 00:36:51,500
doesn't have a psychiatric disorder,
610
00:36:51,584 --> 00:36:54,462
then I don't know what we mean
by psychiatric disease.
611
00:36:54,545 --> 00:36:56,923
How many people does someone
have to eat in Milwaukee
612
00:36:57,006 --> 00:36:59,175
before they think
you have a mental disease?
613
00:37:02,094 --> 00:37:04,639
I've been trying cases
for 38 years as a DA.
614
00:37:04,722 --> 00:37:06,599
I don't find a... a celebratory feeling.
615
00:37:07,308 --> 00:37:08,851
Seventeen people died.
616
00:37:09,477 --> 00:37:11,896
Seventeen families crushed and destroyed.
617
00:37:12,396 --> 00:37:14,065
There's just no room for elation.
618
00:37:15,024 --> 00:37:17,652
But I would've been crushed
if he had come back
619
00:37:17,735 --> 00:37:19,987
and found that he was insane.
620
00:37:21,489 --> 00:37:25,493
Dahmer had no reaction
to being found sane.
621
00:37:25,576 --> 00:37:27,662
No reaction whatsoever.
622
00:37:28,371 --> 00:37:29,371
None.
623
00:37:29,956 --> 00:37:32,250
Ms. Dahmer,
do you have any comment?
624
00:37:32,333 --> 00:37:33,376
No.
625
00:37:33,459 --> 00:37:34,710
- Mr. Dahmer?
- No.
626
00:37:36,045 --> 00:37:38,273
We attempted
to talk to Dahmer's grandmother
627
00:37:38,297 --> 00:37:41,467
Catherine this morning,
but a sign is already posted on the door
628
00:37:41,550 --> 00:37:45,054
saying she is too weak and too troubled
to talk about the case.
629
00:37:45,137 --> 00:37:48,557
As far as the verdict is concerned,
it wasn't really very surprising.
630
00:37:48,641 --> 00:37:53,104
But I think he had a mental disease,
and he needed help.
631
00:37:57,692 --> 00:38:00,111
Families of his victims
wept with relief,
632
00:38:00,194 --> 00:38:03,281
knowing that Dahmer now faces
a probable prison sentence
633
00:38:03,364 --> 00:38:05,032
instead of a mental institution.
634
00:38:05,116 --> 00:38:07,785
The case against Jeffrey Dahmer
comes to a close today
635
00:38:07,868 --> 00:38:11,122
when he is sentenced later this morning
in a Milwaukee courtroom.
636
00:38:11,622 --> 00:38:13,374
What do you expect
will happen this morning
637
00:38:13,457 --> 00:38:15,543
in terms of Dahmer's sentencing?
638
00:38:15,626 --> 00:38:17,086
We first have the family speak.
639
00:38:17,169 --> 00:38:20,881
Under our state law, each family
has an opportunity to express to the court
640
00:38:20,965 --> 00:38:23,467
the impact of this offense
on their family.
641
00:38:23,551 --> 00:38:26,846
I think we'll see highly charged
emotional statements by the family.
642
00:38:29,140 --> 00:38:31,851
I'm the mother of Anthony Lee Sears.
643
00:38:33,853 --> 00:38:36,022
And I just wanted to know,
644
00:38:36,105 --> 00:38:40,151
you know, just why would it be my son?
645
00:38:40,776 --> 00:38:44,238
Um, I wanna thank the jury.
I wanna thank you, Judge.
646
00:38:44,322 --> 00:38:47,491
And just keep this man
off the street, please.
647
00:38:48,951 --> 00:38:54,415
I would like to say to Jeffrey Dahmer
that he don't know the pain, the hurt,
648
00:38:54,498 --> 00:38:59,128
the loss, and the mental state
that he had put our family in.
649
00:39:00,796 --> 00:39:04,342
I don't wanna ever see my mother
have to go through this again!
650
00:39:05,134 --> 00:39:06,385
Never, Jeffrey.
651
00:39:06,886 --> 00:39:09,805
Jeffrey, I hate you, motherfucker!
652
00:39:09,889 --> 00:39:11,432
I hate you!
653
00:39:11,515 --> 00:39:13,517
Jeffrey's out of control!
654
00:39:13,601 --> 00:39:16,395
Don't fuck with me, Jeffrey!
I'll kill you, goddamn it!
655
00:39:16,479 --> 00:39:18,439
Look at me, motherfucker!
656
00:39:18,522 --> 00:39:20,733
- Ah! I could kill you!
- Lunch and recess.
657
00:39:20,816 --> 00:39:23,861
Fucking kill you, motherfucker!
658
00:39:25,279 --> 00:39:27,406
She was coming
across the courtroom at him,
659
00:39:27,490 --> 00:39:29,617
intent, it appeared to me, to attack him.
660
00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:31,285
He was cool. He kept control.
661
00:39:31,369 --> 00:39:33,496
I would've thought he'd jump up.
He didn't.
662
00:39:33,579 --> 00:39:37,041
He just sat there.
This is Jeffrey Dahmer under stress.
663
00:39:41,962 --> 00:39:44,762
The judge said to Jeffrey,
"Is there anything you'd like to say
664
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,759
in addressing the court
before I pass judgment?"
665
00:39:46,842 --> 00:39:49,929
This has never been a case
of trying to get free.
666
00:39:50,513 --> 00:39:52,473
Frankly, I wanted death for myself.
667
00:39:53,265 --> 00:39:54,725
I hated no one.
668
00:39:55,351 --> 00:39:58,020
I knew I was sick or evil, or both.
669
00:39:58,604 --> 00:40:00,106
Now I believe I was sick.
670
00:40:01,399 --> 00:40:03,526
I take all the blame for what I did.
671
00:40:03,609 --> 00:40:05,111
I hurt many people.
672
00:40:05,194 --> 00:40:08,239
I've hurt my mother and father
and stepmother.
673
00:40:08,322 --> 00:40:10,241
I love them all so very much.
674
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,620
I hope that they will find
the same peace I am looking for.
675
00:40:15,996 --> 00:40:20,334
This left the judge to
hand down the stiffest possible sentence
676
00:40:20,418 --> 00:40:22,461
in a state with no death penalty.
677
00:40:24,213 --> 00:40:27,883
Dahmer was sentenced to 15
consecutive terms of life imprisonment.
678
00:40:27,967 --> 00:40:30,594
Yes!
679
00:40:35,266 --> 00:40:38,185
Finally they had something
to cheer about for the first time
680
00:40:38,269 --> 00:40:41,856
since these family members learned
of Jeffrey Dahmer and what he did.
681
00:40:44,150 --> 00:40:45,651
Life goes on.
682
00:40:45,734 --> 00:40:48,988
Maybe what I've learned through
this tragedy will help someone else.
683
00:40:49,572 --> 00:40:51,866
And I just thank God for this verdict.
684
00:40:52,992 --> 00:40:57,413
Dahmer identified Steven's picture and
was asked how he could be sure who it was.
685
00:40:57,496 --> 00:41:00,416
He told the police,
"You always remember your first."
686
00:41:00,499 --> 00:41:03,502
I want him to know
that we also remember our first.
687
00:41:03,586 --> 00:41:06,464
Not one day has passed
that we've not thought about Steve.
688
00:41:07,923 --> 00:41:11,343
There's a sense of closure in the sense...
Especially for the families
689
00:41:11,427 --> 00:41:14,305
that waited years to find out
what had happened to their sons.
690
00:41:15,473 --> 00:41:17,349
It's a sad sense of closure,
691
00:41:17,975 --> 00:41:19,226
but it's closure.
692
00:41:26,108 --> 00:41:29,570
Dahmer was sent to Columbia
Correctional Facility in Wisconsin.
693
00:41:32,198 --> 00:41:34,325
I dunno what prison systems are like.
694
00:41:34,408 --> 00:41:37,411
I have a picture
of a very dreary, gray place.
695
00:41:38,078 --> 00:41:40,498
I was thinking maybe that in prison,
696
00:41:40,581 --> 00:41:44,919
they'll maybe let me do something
with growing some kind of a plant.
697
00:41:45,753 --> 00:41:49,840
Uh, I've always had an interest
in growing plants.
698
00:41:49,924 --> 00:41:51,717
I had plants at the apartment.
699
00:41:52,927 --> 00:41:55,387
He was put on suicide watch,
700
00:41:55,471 --> 00:41:59,016
so he was placed in a single cell,
not in the bullpen.
701
00:41:59,099 --> 00:42:01,310
He told me,
"What do I have to look forward to?"
702
00:42:01,393 --> 00:42:04,021
I said, "You know,
there's a lot of things that you can do."
703
00:42:04,104 --> 00:42:06,315
"You said you were reading the Bible."
704
00:42:06,398 --> 00:42:08,609
"And you wanted to get back into it."
705
00:42:08,692 --> 00:42:12,029
So he did make those, uh, overt actions
706
00:42:12,112 --> 00:42:16,033
to try and redeem himself in God's eyes.
707
00:42:25,334 --> 00:42:29,880
I got a phone call in 1994
from a minister friend in Milwaukee,
708
00:42:29,964 --> 00:42:31,423
who was in Milwaukee at the time,
709
00:42:31,507 --> 00:42:33,926
saying an inmate wanted to be baptized.
710
00:42:34,426 --> 00:42:36,804
He said,
"You might wanna sit down for this one."
711
00:42:36,887 --> 00:42:38,138
"His name is Jeffrey Dahmer."
712
00:42:39,682 --> 00:42:41,684
I was nervous about meeting him.
713
00:42:43,602 --> 00:42:47,815
I'd never been to a prison before.
I'd never been to a murderer before.
714
00:42:49,233 --> 00:42:50,859
I was sitting there thinking, "Wow."
715
00:42:50,943 --> 00:42:54,113
"I'm in a room with a guy
who's killed a lot of young men."
716
00:42:54,196 --> 00:42:56,073
And I looked at his hands. And his hands...
717
00:42:56,156 --> 00:42:58,742
I thought his hands were relatively small
compared to my hands.
718
00:42:58,826 --> 00:43:00,786
With those hands, he strangled men,
719
00:43:00,869 --> 00:43:04,915
and yet here I am talking to him
as if, you know, we're just normal people.
720
00:43:05,874 --> 00:43:07,793
I said, "Yes, I'll... I'll baptize you."
721
00:43:07,876 --> 00:43:10,254
That seemed to cause him
a great deal of relief.
722
00:43:11,171 --> 00:43:14,216
He says, "Well, I was afraid you'd say,
'You are too evil."
723
00:43:14,300 --> 00:43:17,261
"You are too horrible,
too wicked to be baptized.'"
724
00:43:21,599 --> 00:43:23,142
Jeff was brought in.
725
00:43:24,310 --> 00:43:26,186
I pushed his head under the water,
726
00:43:27,146 --> 00:43:30,107
and when he came up, I said,
"Welcome to the family of God."
727
00:43:32,318 --> 00:43:34,069
On the day of his baptism,
728
00:43:34,153 --> 00:43:36,989
John Wayne Gacy
was executed on that same day.
729
00:43:39,199 --> 00:43:41,827
There was a full solar eclipse as well.
730
00:43:41,910 --> 00:43:46,624
Some tried to read into that some kind
of mystical, uh, meaning behind all this.
731
00:43:47,708 --> 00:43:50,836
I met him once a week from that point on
for about an hour.
732
00:43:50,919 --> 00:43:53,005
It was a matter of growing in his faith,
733
00:43:53,088 --> 00:43:56,717
understanding what his faith was about,
and then continue each week.
734
00:43:57,217 --> 00:43:59,637
Jeffrey Dahmer lives
in that building back there.
735
00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:01,764
Disciplinary Segregation Two.
736
00:44:01,847 --> 00:44:04,391
Now, he has a job,
mopping and sweeping up floors,
737
00:44:04,475 --> 00:44:08,395
and officials hope eventually he'll be
able to mix with the general population.
738
00:44:09,897 --> 00:44:12,983
On the last day I saw him,
it was the day before Thanksgiving.
739
00:44:14,193 --> 00:44:17,488
He gave me a card,
and he underlined the word "friend."
740
00:44:17,571 --> 00:44:20,574
It indicated that, uh, he was beginning
to understand
741
00:44:20,658 --> 00:44:22,868
what friendship was
for the very first time.
742
00:44:25,621 --> 00:44:27,748
After he was in prison for a year,
743
00:44:27,831 --> 00:44:29,541
I went and visited him.
744
00:44:29,625 --> 00:44:32,961
He said, "I'm not gonna do this anymore.
I can't just sit here in isolation."
745
00:44:33,045 --> 00:44:36,048
He said,
"If I can't interact with other people,
746
00:44:36,715 --> 00:44:39,301
that's gonna be worse than if I died."
747
00:44:40,678 --> 00:44:44,098
He said, "I'm gonna be asked
to be put in general population."
748
00:44:44,181 --> 00:44:47,059
I said, "Jeff, you know,
you're gonna be dead shortly."
749
00:44:47,142 --> 00:44:50,354
"Because everybody had such strong,
750
00:44:50,437 --> 00:44:52,314
strong views
751
00:44:52,398 --> 00:44:54,441
and opinions about your actions."
752
00:44:55,693 --> 00:44:57,569
"We don't need any further loss of life."
753
00:44:59,947 --> 00:45:02,741
I tell you, Wendy.
I don't think I'm gonna be able to keep
754
00:45:02,825 --> 00:45:04,827
a level head. I really don't.
755
00:45:05,703 --> 00:45:07,371
Because I've always been one
756
00:45:07,454 --> 00:45:10,541
who needs stimulation, mental stimulation.
757
00:45:12,418 --> 00:45:13,544
Uh...
758
00:45:13,627 --> 00:45:16,213
And I just don't have
the patience that I should.
759
00:45:25,431 --> 00:45:27,975
I had a very hard time
that day leaving.
760
00:45:31,770 --> 00:45:33,856
And I just said, "Please don't do this."
761
00:45:35,858 --> 00:45:38,193
"You're just not gonna make it."
762
00:46:00,549 --> 00:46:04,595
In November of 1994, while he was
in the prison, he was at the work detail.
763
00:46:05,971 --> 00:46:07,973
He and a man named Jesse Anderson
764
00:46:08,056 --> 00:46:10,768
were assigned to clean up
lockers in the gym.
765
00:46:12,978 --> 00:46:15,856
Christopher Scarver, a man who my office
had convicted of murder
766
00:46:15,939 --> 00:46:18,442
a number of years earlier,
was on the same work detail.
767
00:46:19,151 --> 00:46:21,737
He took the barbell from the exercise room
768
00:46:22,446 --> 00:46:25,240
and bludgeoned Dahmer
over the head with that weapon.
769
00:46:25,324 --> 00:46:28,160
The information I received
from the prison was
770
00:46:28,243 --> 00:46:30,871
he did not resist the attack.
771
00:46:32,623 --> 00:46:37,002
The irony in all of this is that
the first time that Mr. Dahmer killed
772
00:46:37,085 --> 00:46:39,797
was when he picked up
some weight lifting equipment
773
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,090
and took the life of Steven Hicks.
774
00:46:43,008 --> 00:46:44,802
The whole thing came full cycle.
775
00:46:48,555 --> 00:46:51,892
He was in general population
within a year of when he was killed.
776
00:46:52,434 --> 00:46:54,812
It was surprising
that Dahmer lived that long.
777
00:46:56,939 --> 00:46:58,690
Dahmer's father Lionel joins us.
778
00:46:58,774 --> 00:47:00,943
Tell me, you told me that you were at work
779
00:47:01,026 --> 00:47:03,737
when your wife called
to say your son had been injured.
780
00:47:03,821 --> 00:47:05,364
What then happened after that?
781
00:47:06,114 --> 00:47:09,910
She had called and...
and hit me with the news
782
00:47:09,993 --> 00:47:13,163
that... that Jeff had passed away
783
00:47:13,247 --> 00:47:15,082
that morning about ten o'clock.
784
00:47:15,165 --> 00:47:17,501
I just couldn't believe it. I...
785
00:47:18,252 --> 00:47:21,046
I started sobbing and... and, uh, shaking.
786
00:47:22,047 --> 00:47:23,340
I was very upset.
787
00:47:24,132 --> 00:47:26,009
You can't help but become close
with somebody
788
00:47:26,093 --> 00:47:29,054
when you spend that many days,
weeks, months with them.
789
00:47:29,137 --> 00:47:33,559
Some suspected that the prison system
had deliberately undertaken
790
00:47:33,642 --> 00:47:35,060
to execute Dahmer,
791
00:47:35,143 --> 00:47:37,020
and the governor, very wisely,
792
00:47:37,104 --> 00:47:40,649
immediately ordered a commission
to investigate it.
793
00:47:40,732 --> 00:47:44,862
This prison has nearly 3 dozen
video monitors, electronic steel doors,
794
00:47:44,945 --> 00:47:47,739
yet somehow 25-year-old
Christopher Scarver
795
00:47:47,823 --> 00:47:50,993
allegedly managed to elude
the elaborate security system.
796
00:47:51,076 --> 00:47:54,454
One went to answer a phone call
the other was listening to music.
797
00:47:54,538 --> 00:47:56,665
It was ridiculous no one was around.
798
00:47:57,499 --> 00:47:59,459
I used to work in prison.
799
00:48:00,127 --> 00:48:03,589
We watched them bathe.
We watched them eat and sleep.
800
00:48:03,672 --> 00:48:05,674
We watched them pee and poo.
801
00:48:05,757 --> 00:48:08,218
Any time they moved, we were there.
802
00:48:08,302 --> 00:48:12,014
Dahmer was one of the most celebrated
prisoners in the western hemisphere.
803
00:48:13,223 --> 00:48:17,352
How is it that so prominent a prisoner
could be executed in the prison?
804
00:48:18,979 --> 00:48:22,733
There was a study, and, uh, the commission
said there was no crime involved,
805
00:48:22,816 --> 00:48:26,695
that there was no conspiracy,
no inside job to get rid of Dahmer.
806
00:48:26,778 --> 00:48:30,657
They have given him good, fair, uh, care.
807
00:48:31,325 --> 00:48:34,453
They've guarded him.
Uh, they knew the potential dangers.
808
00:48:34,536 --> 00:48:36,204
It's not the prison's fault.
809
00:48:36,288 --> 00:48:38,707
Jeff, for all that he was a killer,
810
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:40,459
could never defend himself.
811
00:48:42,044 --> 00:48:44,546
I... I could not celebrate
when he was killed.
812
00:48:45,672 --> 00:48:49,384
I can understand why some might,
but I felt nothing but sadness.
813
00:48:50,218 --> 00:48:52,262
A sad story with a sad ending.
814
00:48:59,186 --> 00:49:02,064
Jeffrey Dahmer
was a very complex person.
815
00:49:04,191 --> 00:49:07,319
He was a very hurting individual
816
00:49:07,402 --> 00:49:10,572
that felt soulless, felt empty.
817
00:49:13,533 --> 00:49:16,995
Did it enter your mind
that it seemed a waste to destroy somebody
818
00:49:17,079 --> 00:49:20,290
who looked so nice
while they were still alive?
819
00:49:20,374 --> 00:49:22,334
Yeah, it did.
820
00:49:23,126 --> 00:49:25,462
I felt that it was...
821
00:49:26,922 --> 00:49:31,301
a waste that I couldn't keep them longer
without having to kill them,
822
00:49:31,385 --> 00:49:34,680
but I didn't know any other way
to make them stay
823
00:49:34,763 --> 00:49:36,556
and to control them.
824
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:38,433
I had no choice in the matter.
825
00:49:39,977 --> 00:49:43,814
Did you, uh,
feel emotions of any kind?
826
00:49:44,439 --> 00:49:47,234
I felt a lot of...
827
00:49:47,776 --> 00:49:49,528
a great deal of remorse.
828
00:49:54,533 --> 00:49:56,743
I don't think Jeffrey
ever found out
829
00:49:56,827 --> 00:49:58,996
a good enough answer for him
830
00:49:59,079 --> 00:50:01,289
as to why he did what he did.
831
00:50:03,208 --> 00:50:06,878
He said, "Through all
of these forensic doctors I'm talking to,
832
00:50:06,962 --> 00:50:09,673
if one of them
could give me a reason why."
833
00:50:10,757 --> 00:50:12,676
"I really would like to know."
834
00:50:12,759 --> 00:50:16,346
But with his death,
I knew he would never find out why.
835
00:50:18,181 --> 00:50:21,018
We can easily just say
this is an evil monster.
836
00:50:21,101 --> 00:50:24,563
"Why'd he do it?" "'Cause he's evil."
"How do we know?" "'Cause he did it."
837
00:50:24,646 --> 00:50:27,274
It's just a label
masquerading as an explanation.
838
00:50:28,108 --> 00:50:31,445
There were still things
that I wanted to know about him,
839
00:50:31,528 --> 00:50:33,739
things I wanted to talk to him about.
840
00:50:34,656 --> 00:50:36,908
It was a waste of an opportunity
841
00:50:36,992 --> 00:50:40,787
for people to study what made him tick.
842
00:50:42,247 --> 00:50:45,042
They were horrific, terrible things
that he did,
843
00:50:45,125 --> 00:50:48,295
but if he really couldn't
control his conduct,
844
00:50:48,378 --> 00:50:50,005
let's find out what's going on here.
845
00:50:50,088 --> 00:50:51,923
Maybe we can all learn something
as a society.
846
00:50:59,056 --> 00:51:01,016
Jeffrey Dahmer, he didn't care.
847
00:51:01,099 --> 00:51:03,518
He had no sympathy for them.
848
00:51:03,602 --> 00:51:04,978
He had no remorse.
849
00:51:07,856 --> 00:51:11,485
And far as I know, he never felt bad
for the people he harmed,
850
00:51:11,985 --> 00:51:13,570
all the damage he did.
851
00:51:17,157 --> 00:51:19,993
Dahmer's victims had
very little recourse in the end.
852
00:51:21,328 --> 00:51:23,330
And the family members who had survived,
853
00:51:23,413 --> 00:51:26,792
there was very little
to compensate them for their losses.
854
00:51:27,375 --> 00:51:32,255
But what was left was Dahmer's property
that had been taken out of his apartment.
855
00:51:33,131 --> 00:51:34,731
That's when a judge ordered
856
00:51:34,758 --> 00:51:38,095
that Dahmer's possessions,
including his instruments of death,
857
00:51:38,178 --> 00:51:40,430
be auctioned off to the highest bidder.
858
00:51:40,514 --> 00:51:43,391
The proceeds would be divided
among the victims' families.
859
00:51:44,351 --> 00:51:48,313
A philanthropist purchased
everything on behalf of the victims.
860
00:51:48,396 --> 00:51:50,982
Milwaukee businessman
Joe Zilber
861
00:51:51,066 --> 00:51:53,401
launched an effort
to buy everything and destroy it.
862
00:51:53,485 --> 00:51:56,238
Zilber reached out
to fellow business leaders, politicians,
863
00:51:56,321 --> 00:51:57,989
and prominent Milwaukeeans.
864
00:51:58,073 --> 00:52:01,535
They raised $400,000
and purchased all the items.
865
00:52:02,035 --> 00:52:05,163
They're upset that
a situation would have to occur
866
00:52:05,247 --> 00:52:07,082
where these terrible, terrible items
867
00:52:07,165 --> 00:52:09,918
would go on a public auction block
868
00:52:10,001 --> 00:52:13,463
in a very highly visible,
869
00:52:13,547 --> 00:52:14,965
worldwide way.
870
00:52:15,465 --> 00:52:18,718
The items were then
loaded into a garbage truck
871
00:52:18,802 --> 00:52:21,555
and taken to an undisclosed landfill
872
00:52:21,638 --> 00:52:22,848
in Illinois.
873
00:52:28,061 --> 00:52:31,690
He took lives
for a few hours of sexual pleasure
874
00:52:32,274 --> 00:52:36,486
of persons that had done him nothing evil,
or toward which he would have no ill will.
875
00:52:36,570 --> 00:52:38,113
He took their life.
876
00:52:39,072 --> 00:52:40,365
That's the tragedy.
877
00:52:41,408 --> 00:52:43,702
I would hope the world
would forget about Dahmer,
878
00:52:43,785 --> 00:52:46,371
and he would become
a part of the ash bin of history.
879
00:52:52,794 --> 00:52:55,589
All the tenants
living in the Oxford Apartments,
880
00:52:55,672 --> 00:52:59,134
we held a meeting
to decide on what we were gonna do.
881
00:52:59,718 --> 00:53:03,263
And we decided
that we didn't want to live there anymore.
882
00:53:07,225 --> 00:53:09,102
It will give me relief
883
00:53:09,728 --> 00:53:12,230
to know that the young men that died here,
884
00:53:12,314 --> 00:53:15,442
their souls and their body,
will seem at rest with this down.
885
00:53:15,525 --> 00:53:17,944
So the Oxford will be razed,
886
00:53:18,028 --> 00:53:21,656
and it is hoped the tragic memories
born here can be buried forever.
887
00:53:24,951 --> 00:53:28,079
What many call a symbol
of pain and senseless violence
888
00:53:28,163 --> 00:53:30,916
will no longer be so visible
to the city of Milwaukee
889
00:53:30,999 --> 00:53:33,752
and the families
of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims.
890
00:53:37,964 --> 00:53:41,343
I can understand Milwaukee
wants to put this case behind it.
891
00:53:41,426 --> 00:53:43,678
I think it's important,
though, to understand
892
00:53:43,762 --> 00:53:46,806
that there are people out there
who do horrific things.
893
00:53:48,475 --> 00:53:49,768
Evil is real.
894
00:53:51,102 --> 00:53:53,813
Jeffrey Dahmer not only
killed his victims,
895
00:53:53,897 --> 00:53:55,690
but he hurt a community.
896
00:53:56,274 --> 00:54:00,612
The pain of Jeffrey Dahmer's killings
hurt Milwaukee.
897
00:54:01,404 --> 00:54:04,616
The... The families were people
that we saw on TV.
898
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,036
The neighborhood was a neighborhood
that we knew.
899
00:54:11,706 --> 00:54:14,376
This was a case that exposed
900
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:16,753
a lot of racial issues,
901
00:54:16,836 --> 00:54:19,130
a lot of different biases,
902
00:54:19,714 --> 00:54:22,968
both in the police department
and the community that is Milwaukee.
903
00:54:25,178 --> 00:54:29,099
What Dahmer was doing was
he was feeding on the undetectable
904
00:54:29,182 --> 00:54:32,352
in our community,
and he was protected by the institutions
905
00:54:32,435 --> 00:54:36,398
that were supposed to be protecting
these weakest, most vulnerable people.
906
00:54:36,481 --> 00:54:39,317
He preyed on them,
and the police did not protect them.
907
00:54:42,362 --> 00:54:46,700
Whatever we learn, it's not gonna be worth
what these families have suffered,
908
00:54:46,783 --> 00:54:48,535
but let's not just throw it away.
909
00:54:49,411 --> 00:54:51,621
It's important to get this right,
910
00:54:52,289 --> 00:54:56,751
to talk about this in a way
that gives dignity to these victims.
911
00:54:58,503 --> 00:55:02,465
We can't go back and fix
what happened back in 1991
912
00:55:02,549 --> 00:55:05,093
and prior to that
when he started killing people.
913
00:55:08,847 --> 00:55:10,390
What you can do, though,
914
00:55:10,473 --> 00:55:13,643
is have people talk about what happened,
915
00:55:14,394 --> 00:55:19,816
so we don't fall into the same traps
and shed light on it,
916
00:55:19,899 --> 00:55:24,904
so the crime that we see on a daily basis
stops or slows down.
917
00:55:26,281 --> 00:55:28,366
The poverty, the high crime,
918
00:55:29,034 --> 00:55:32,037
the fact that we don't care
about the disadvantaged,
919
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,749
all those things provided
a playground for him to operate in.
920
00:55:36,583 --> 00:55:39,919
To prevent something like that
from happening again,
921
00:55:40,003 --> 00:55:42,172
you have to address these issues
922
00:55:43,340 --> 00:55:44,341
today.
923
00:55:46,676 --> 00:55:48,553
There's always
gonna be that pain,
924
00:55:48,636 --> 00:55:50,597
that remembrance of what happened.
925
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,850
We're always gonna do the "what-ifs."
926
00:55:53,933 --> 00:55:55,602
You know? Where would they be now?
927
00:55:55,685 --> 00:55:59,647
What kind of life would they have had?
You're always gonna miss that person.
928
00:56:02,150 --> 00:56:04,486
Humanizing the individuals
929
00:56:04,569 --> 00:56:06,404
who lost their lives
930
00:56:06,488 --> 00:56:07,989
is important.
931
00:56:08,490 --> 00:56:11,743
Recognizing that
each one of those young men
932
00:56:12,410 --> 00:56:14,162
had a mother,
933
00:56:14,245 --> 00:56:15,830
a father,
934
00:56:15,914 --> 00:56:17,874
had sisters and brothers
935
00:56:17,957 --> 00:56:21,211
that loved them and still miss them.
936
00:56:26,257 --> 00:56:29,886
They were just trying to do
937
00:56:29,969 --> 00:56:32,055
what we're all trying to do.
938
00:56:32,138 --> 00:56:33,515
Survive.
939
00:56:34,265 --> 00:56:37,602
Live and enjoy the life
that they'd been given.
940
00:56:38,478 --> 00:56:40,855
They had a life
941
00:56:40,939 --> 00:56:43,024
that they loved.
942
00:56:43,775 --> 00:56:47,237
I think it's important
to tell their story.
943
00:56:48,571 --> 00:56:50,824
Nobody deserves to die like that.