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[eerie music playing]
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[woman] I was a young lawyer at the time.
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I was in my twenties.
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I just moved to Milwaukee.
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And a woman living alone,
and I didn't know a lot of people.
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[telephone ringing]
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I get this call from Jerry Boyle, my boss.
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He said, "Look, we've got this new case,
and it's a big one."
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"I need you to go down
to the police administration building."
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[car engine revving]
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[woman] Jerry Boyle indicated, he said,
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"This is somebody
I had represented in the past."
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"He's a nice man. Don't worry,
he won't bite your head off."
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I went down immediately
as he had requested
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to see Jeffrey Dahmer.
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It's my first job.
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[ominous music playing]
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[woman] When I first went in to see him,
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it was a very small interview room.
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There was Jeff, um,
sitting in the corner of the table.
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I was incredibly nervous
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because this was something
I felt was way over my head.
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[reporter 1]
Even veteran police officers say
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this is among the strangest
murder scenes they've witnessed.
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The country has been spellbound
by the horrifying story of Jeffrey Dahmer.
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[reporter 2] Murder, mutilation,
even cannibalism.
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[reporter 3] Shock and horror
as police carry out a large cooking kettle
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in the biggest and most gruesome
mass murder case in Milwaukee history.
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I felt like Clarice Starling
in Silence of the Lambs.
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He, uh... He was very polite.
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I was somewhat surprised, I guess,
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at how, uh, cordial Jeff was.
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In order to be a good defense attorney,
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you have to be nonjudgmental
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and develop a trust.
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And, uh, he called me Wendy.
I called him Jeff.
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[plays from recorder] This is okay, Jeff.
I mean, don't be embarrassed about it.
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Am I... Am I making you feel uncomfortable?
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[Jeffrey] No. It has to be faced, so...
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It's just so bizarre, isn't it?
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It's not... It's not easy to talk about.
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It's something that I've kept
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buried within myself for many years,
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and it's...
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Yeah.
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It's like trying to pull up
a two-ton stone out of a well.
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[Wendy] I don't think there's anything
that can prepare anybody
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for that kind of carnage.
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[music builds to climax]
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[unsettling theme music playing]
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[tape rolling]
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[clicks]
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[ominous music playing]
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[helicopter whirring]
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[man] It was a quiet night.
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You know, one of those summer nights
where it was steamy.
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I was a television reporter, and I was
among the first people on the scene
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at Dahmer's apartment
the night he was arrested.
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When I arrived, just seeing
the faces of the police officers,
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that's when I realized that
something big was happening there.
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I ran into a police officer
that I had known.
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Bobby Rao was his name.
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And I said, "Come on, Bobby.
Is this for real?"
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He looked at me, shook his head and said,
"You bet. This is for real."
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[reporter] Lt. Roosevelt Harrell.
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[Roosevelt] We're investigating a homicide
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which occurred in the apartment building
in 900 block of North 25th Street.
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We do have, uh, one person in custody.
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There's a strong possibility
there might be additional homicides, uh,
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that we're looking into
that this individual might be involved in.
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The police officer assigned to the door
at the Oxford Apartments
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was a guy I knew.
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And we asked, begged him,
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"Could we get in? Could we take pictures
inside Dahmer's apartment?"
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He shook his head.
"You take pictures, I'll lose my job."
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But he said, "You can look in.
As long as you don't cross the threshold."
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So we went to the door,
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held onto the frame and leaned forward,
and looked inside the apartment.
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I remember it being not memorable
for a lot of reasons.
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There was a rolled-up carpet.
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A kitchen to the left.
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There was a bedroom off to the right
and a bathroom.
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But the one thing that stood out
more than anything else
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was a creepy lava lamp that was going.
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The blob going up and down.
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Such an eerie feeling
about the... the apartment.
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The night the Dahmer story broke,
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I was a reporter
at the Milwaukee Sentinel at the time.
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And I'm like the only reporter there
because it was late.
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Tina Burnside,
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who was, uh, a night cops reporter, calls.
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[phone ringing]
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She said, "James, I need you
to take this down very carefully."
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It's the pressure of having an editor
breathing over your shoulder saying,
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"I need that story now."
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I hit "send" to the night editor.
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He edits it, sends it off.
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I remember him saying at the time,
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"This is gonna be the biggest story
to ever hit the city of Milwaukee."
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[tense music playing]
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I was Chief Prosecutor of Milwaukee
many years ago
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before I became a defense lawyer.
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So I've been on both sides of the fence.
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I got a phone call,
a fellow from our main TV station.
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"Wanna talk to you
about a client of yours."
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I said, "Who's that?"
He said, "Jeffrey Dahmer."
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"We think he's a homicidal maniac."
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I had represented him in 1988
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for some sex crime.
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And I said, "Hold that thought.
I... I gotta call his father."
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I called Lionel Dahmer,
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and I told him
what the reporter had told me.
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I told him that I'd get somebody
to find out what's going on.
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I called Wendy Patrickus,
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and Wendy was available.
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[Wendy] First person that they brought me
in to see was Detective Murphy.
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At that point, the entire interrogation
was controlled by the detectives.
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[man] When I first met Dahmer,
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all he said to me is,
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"Why don't you just shoot me now
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for what I did?"
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And I sat down with him,
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reassured him
that whatever he could tell me
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wouldn't reflect on him, or it wouldn't
make me like him or dislike him anymore.
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And subsequently
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put the confession on paper.
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I was a lieutenant
assigned to the homicide unit.
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Dennis Murphy and Pat Kennedy
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were the primary people
that interviewed Dahmer.
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In fact, pretty much every day
that was their job.
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The way he was able to recall
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every detail of these homicides.
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It was incredible.
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[Wendy] As I recall,
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Jeff was a little drunk at the time.
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I did ask him why he was telling
the police everything,
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why he was rendering a confession.
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And he said, "Wendy,
they found so much in my apartment."
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"You know, the gigs up. So I would prefer
to continue talking with them."
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He already had his mind made up.
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At that point I had to say,
"Jeff. I will honor that."
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[Boyle] He had already confessed.
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So I knew Dahmer didn't have a defense.
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So I said to him,
"What do you want me to do?"
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He said, "I wanna know
why I am what I am."
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So I told him,
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"I can get a good psychiatrist
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to come and talk to you,
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and plead you not guilty
by reason of mental illness."
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"Insanity."
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"But I'd need doctors
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to tell me they can support that."
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The real job was to get enough information
to give to the doctors
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to be able to answer their questions.
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The question was
whether he was sane or insane.
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The next several months,
I'd spend considerable time with him,
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talking about each victim
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and, um, gathering as much information
as possible.
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[indistinct sound on tape]
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[Wendy, from playing recorder]
Jeff, tell me what you were thinking.
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[Jeffrey] I had wondered
why I was compelled
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to do all the murders.
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What I was searching for
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that would, uh,
fill the emptiness that I felt.
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The murdering someone
and... and disposing of them right away
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gives no great lasting pleasure
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or a feeling of fulfillment.
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And yet I still felt the compulsion
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to do it throughout these years.
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[suspenseful music playing]
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[Wendy] Jeff wanting to identify
all the victims,
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this was very unique
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in somebody who is a serial killer,
a true serial killer.
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Didn't deny it.
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And said, "Yes, I killed and I killed."
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"This is how I killed. And this was why."
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[Jeffrey playing from tape recorder]
I didn't seem to have
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the normal feelings of empathy.
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[Wendy] Did you ever think to yourself,
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"Why don't I have feelings
that normal people have?"
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[Jeffrey] I did wonder about it.
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It started with fantasies, fantasizing.
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It always started with fantasizing,
and then
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eventually it seemed
the fantasies, uh, came to be.
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He took his fantasy world
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to degrees and places that
most of us would never even conceive of.
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I interviewed Jeffrey Dahmer
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at the request
of defense attorney Jerry Boyle.
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I'd been asked if there was,
in my view, a defense of insanity here.
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I had a 30-year career in Milwaukee
as a forensic psychologist,
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and Dahmer's case came mid-career for me.
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There were others that followed,
but nothing like this.
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[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
What triggered it all?
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I wish I could give you
a good, straightforward answer on that.
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If there's any area
that is, uh, to really blame,
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it's my own twisted thinking. I haven't
been thinking normally for years.
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[uneasy music builds to climax]
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[tape rolling]
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Jeffrey was more reserved
at talking about his childhood.
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There were pictures I saw of him
when he was younger with his dad Lionel,
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and, you know, it seemed very normal.
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You know,
they're playing catch with the ball.
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But his father was gone a lot.
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He's a scientist, and, you know,
he was furthering his own education.
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But Jeff was adamant
that there wasn't any huge traumas
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that would have caused him
to do these things.
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Wasn't like he was
sexually abused or beaten.
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The one thing that Jeffrey
did tell me and Jerry Boyle
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about his childhood
that really affected him
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was this, uh, constant bickering
between his parents.
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[Boyle plays from recorder]
What was the problem growing up
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between your mom and dad?
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[Jeffrey] Ugh!
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They just couldn't seem to get along,
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especially on my mom's side.
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[Boyle] Any violence?
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[Jeffrey] Just the slapping and hitting.
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- [Boyle] Who was hitting who?
- [Jeffrey] Um, Mom hitting Dad.
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[Boyle] Whose side were you on?
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[Jeffrey] I was trying
not to be on anyone's side.
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[Boyle] I had inquired
into the family history
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on both sides
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to see if there was any insanity here,
any peculiar things
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about those family members
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that might give us an insight
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as to how Dahmer became what he became.
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And I didn't find anything
on Lionel Dahmer's side.
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And on Joyce's side,
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I think there was
some alcoholism in her family.
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But there's alcoholism
in a lot of families.
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So it didn't mean anything to me.
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Jeffrey had, uh, a brother,
who was born when Jeffrey was about six.
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David.
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[uneasy music playing]
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[Wendy] All attention then
was given to his younger brother.
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So he was already alone a lot.
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[Eric Tyson]
When Jeff and I were growing up,
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I don't think he had
a large group of friends.
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I never really saw other people come over.
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It was basically Jeff and... and myself.
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Our driveways were directly
across the street from each other,
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so we could take our bicycles
and zoom right across the street,
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or just play ball, go sledding.
244
00:15:10,576 --> 00:15:12,494
[Dr. Smail] His father was quite concerned
245
00:15:12,578 --> 00:15:15,539
that Jeffrey did not do well in school.
246
00:15:15,623 --> 00:15:17,458
Didn't have very many friends.
247
00:15:17,541 --> 00:15:19,835
Never had any contact with girls.
248
00:15:21,295 --> 00:15:24,065
[Wendy playing from recorder] How long
had you known you're homosexual?
249
00:15:24,089 --> 00:15:26,926
[Jeffrey] Uh, since I was 13, I'd say.
250
00:15:27,968 --> 00:15:31,639
[Smail] Jeffrey became aware
of his sexuality
251
00:15:31,722 --> 00:15:33,724
about the time he reached puberty,
252
00:15:33,807 --> 00:15:35,768
which is what you would expect.
253
00:15:36,977 --> 00:15:39,772
He knew that it would be contrary
254
00:15:39,855 --> 00:15:42,691
to the wishes of his father and mother.
255
00:15:43,359 --> 00:15:45,653
[Wendy] And it was about the time
that he did
256
00:15:45,736 --> 00:15:48,697
some sexual experimentation
with another boy in the neighborhood.
257
00:15:50,699 --> 00:15:53,619
[playing from recorder] What did you do?
[Jeffrey] Just kissing.
258
00:15:54,161 --> 00:15:55,663
Laying together,
259
00:15:55,746 --> 00:15:57,081
in the tree house.
260
00:15:57,831 --> 00:15:59,875
I was about 14 or 15.
261
00:16:00,793 --> 00:16:02,503
And that was consensual.
262
00:16:04,380 --> 00:16:09,093
As he got older,
Jeffrey became walled up emotionally
263
00:16:09,176 --> 00:16:11,178
from his peers, his teachers,
264
00:16:11,261 --> 00:16:13,681
childhood friends, even his parents.
265
00:16:17,351 --> 00:16:20,521
[man] I served as the elected
District Attorney of Milwaukee County
266
00:16:20,604 --> 00:16:23,023
during the years of Dahmer's murders.
267
00:16:23,107 --> 00:16:25,734
I was also the prosecutor
of the case itself.
268
00:16:25,818 --> 00:16:28,112
I was the attorney in court
prosecuting him.
269
00:16:32,074 --> 00:16:33,993
By the time he was a senior
in high school,
270
00:16:34,076 --> 00:16:37,079
he started having fantasies.
Sexual fantasies.
271
00:16:37,162 --> 00:16:39,581
One of those was having sex with a person
272
00:16:39,665 --> 00:16:42,084
who was, in effect,
completely submissive to him.
273
00:16:42,167 --> 00:16:45,045
To violently force someone
to submit to him.
274
00:16:45,546 --> 00:16:48,024
[Wendy plays from recorder]
When was the first time you thought
275
00:16:48,048 --> 00:16:49,528
about doing these things to a person?
276
00:16:50,009 --> 00:16:51,009
[Jeffrey] Uh...
277
00:16:51,635 --> 00:16:53,637
- [Wendy] I mean, just fantasy.
- [Jeffrey] Yeah.
278
00:16:54,304 --> 00:16:57,099
Probably around when I was 18.
279
00:16:59,518 --> 00:17:02,646
He fantasized about a jogger
that came by frequently.
280
00:17:03,731 --> 00:17:07,443
He wondered what that person
would look like without a shirt on.
281
00:17:08,277 --> 00:17:11,655
He wanted to have sex with that young man,
was drawn to that man to have sex.
282
00:17:12,406 --> 00:17:14,616
But he didn't know how to approach it
or what to do.
283
00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:18,162
So he decided he would
knock him unconscious in the woods
284
00:17:18,245 --> 00:17:20,581
and have sex with him
while he was unconscious.
285
00:17:21,290 --> 00:17:23,125
[Dr. Smail]
It wasn't an object to kill him.
286
00:17:23,208 --> 00:17:27,296
It was an object to touch, cuddle,
explore the body.
287
00:17:27,379 --> 00:17:29,214
It wasn't the relationship.
288
00:17:29,298 --> 00:17:31,175
It's not the person.
289
00:17:31,258 --> 00:17:33,093
It's the well-toned,
290
00:17:33,177 --> 00:17:35,846
athletic male body. That's what he wanted.
291
00:17:36,555 --> 00:17:39,892
He sawed off a bat for a weapon
to knock the man unconscious.
292
00:17:40,809 --> 00:17:42,478
[Wendy] He had hid behind a tree.
293
00:17:45,481 --> 00:17:48,192
But that particular jogger
did not come by,
294
00:17:48,275 --> 00:17:49,818
so he abandoned that idea.
295
00:17:51,570 --> 00:17:54,740
[Michael Mccann] That was basically
Dahmer's first violent fantasy.
296
00:17:55,449 --> 00:17:58,786
To do that to this man
that jogged through his neighborhood.
297
00:17:58,869 --> 00:18:00,704
[uneasy music playing]
298
00:18:07,461 --> 00:18:09,046
[tape rolling]
299
00:18:11,882 --> 00:18:13,425
[news theme music playing]
300
00:18:14,593 --> 00:18:17,012
[reporter] From WTMJ TV.
301
00:18:17,096 --> 00:18:19,348
Milwaukee's 24-hour news channel.
302
00:18:20,057 --> 00:18:23,227
This is News Channel 4 Daybreak.
303
00:18:24,144 --> 00:18:27,356
My first opportunity
to share the news with the world
304
00:18:27,439 --> 00:18:31,235
was in a morning live shot
on a, uh, morning news show.
305
00:18:31,318 --> 00:18:34,988
Good morning. A very gruesome
discovery in Milwaukee overnight.
306
00:18:35,072 --> 00:18:38,992
Milwaukee police find a horrifying scene
inside an apartment building.
307
00:18:39,576 --> 00:18:43,956
What I recited shocked the anchor people
back at the station.
308
00:18:44,039 --> 00:18:47,084
Mike and Juliet, police got here
in the middle of the night,
309
00:18:47,167 --> 00:18:51,296
and what they found was an apartment
full of pieces of people.
310
00:18:51,380 --> 00:18:55,050
Men who were apparently killed
by another man, a resident here,
311
00:18:55,134 --> 00:18:58,554
in what appears to be
a sexually motivated mass murder.
312
00:18:59,555 --> 00:19:02,349
At the end of the broadcast,
I was expecting a question.
313
00:19:02,432 --> 00:19:04,893
You always get a routine question
from the anchor people.
314
00:19:05,477 --> 00:19:07,062
The bodies were dismembered,
315
00:19:07,146 --> 00:19:09,606
so literally
piecing together the information,
316
00:19:09,690 --> 00:19:12,442
it's gonna be difficult to figure out
who the victims are.
317
00:19:13,193 --> 00:19:14,361
They were silent.
318
00:19:17,156 --> 00:19:21,160
I asked them later, "What happened?
Why didn't you ask me a question?"
319
00:19:21,243 --> 00:19:24,746
They said, "We were so stunned,
we couldn't think of a question."
320
00:19:27,916 --> 00:19:29,501
[Causey] I remember going to the scene
321
00:19:29,585 --> 00:19:32,129
because as a reporter,
you wanna see for yourself.
322
00:19:32,212 --> 00:19:34,506
And it was... it was literally a zoo.
323
00:19:34,590 --> 00:19:38,093
- [reporters chattering indistinctly]
- It was like that for days on end.
324
00:19:38,886 --> 00:19:42,973
People were shocked. They were awed.
And they couldn't turn away.
325
00:19:43,891 --> 00:19:45,893
[indistinct chatter]
326
00:19:49,771 --> 00:19:53,150
[Wendy] You can't imagine
the enormity of it all.
327
00:19:53,233 --> 00:19:55,152
It was anxiety.
328
00:19:55,235 --> 00:19:58,655
It was a lot of excitement,
to some extent.
329
00:19:59,364 --> 00:20:01,867
But worried that I was doing my job right.
330
00:20:02,409 --> 00:20:04,870
[playing from recorder]
When did your parents separate?
331
00:20:04,953 --> 00:20:06,288
[Jeffrey] When I was 18.
332
00:20:06,997 --> 00:20:08,624
In 1978.
333
00:20:09,666 --> 00:20:13,378
Instilling in him that I'm not somebody
sitting here judging him,
334
00:20:14,087 --> 00:20:16,048
um, was of utmost importance
335
00:20:16,131 --> 00:20:17,799
to cut through everything,
336
00:20:17,883 --> 00:20:19,801
because there was so much material.
337
00:20:20,969 --> 00:20:24,473
To get that trust
made all the difference in the world.
338
00:20:26,058 --> 00:20:29,519
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
Mom and Dad, they had their problems.
339
00:20:30,312 --> 00:20:33,315
There was nothing I could do
to change the situation,
340
00:20:33,815 --> 00:20:35,359
so I just tried to
341
00:20:35,859 --> 00:20:39,321
find some happiness my own way,
342
00:20:39,988 --> 00:20:42,157
which was obviously the wrong way.
343
00:20:47,287 --> 00:20:48,413
[tape rolling]
344
00:20:53,502 --> 00:20:56,129
[Mccann] Dahmer had just graduated
from high school.
345
00:20:58,298 --> 00:21:00,384
His parents were going through a divorce,
346
00:21:00,467 --> 00:21:03,553
and Dahmer was alone
at the home in Bath, Ohio.
347
00:21:05,222 --> 00:21:07,599
[Dr. Smail] His mother kicked
his father out.
348
00:21:07,683 --> 00:21:09,851
He moved out to a motel.
349
00:21:10,769 --> 00:21:12,521
Unbeknownst to his dad,
350
00:21:12,604 --> 00:21:14,856
his mother just decided,
"I've had enough."
351
00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:17,651
So she left abruptly with his brother.
352
00:21:18,527 --> 00:21:20,279
[Wendy] I don't think his father knew
353
00:21:20,362 --> 00:21:24,074
that the mother
had left for Wisconsin at the time.
354
00:21:25,075 --> 00:21:28,287
Jeffrey Dahmer never used the word
"abandoned by his parents,"
355
00:21:28,370 --> 00:21:32,416
although I think that he might
have been familiar with that feeling.
356
00:21:33,375 --> 00:21:35,812
[Wendy plays from recorder]
The day she left to Chippewa Falls
357
00:21:35,836 --> 00:21:38,005
- you never talked to her again?
- [Jeffrey] Right.
358
00:21:38,088 --> 00:21:40,090
[Wendy] How did it make you feel
at that time?
359
00:21:40,173 --> 00:21:41,717
[Jeffrey] Uh, depressed.
360
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,260
Lonely and bored.
361
00:21:44,928 --> 00:21:46,555
Confused, I would say.
362
00:21:47,973 --> 00:21:49,850
No one was at home.
363
00:21:50,559 --> 00:21:52,436
I saw this guy hitchhiking.
364
00:21:52,519 --> 00:21:56,106
I thought it'd be nice
to have someone around to talk with,
365
00:21:57,107 --> 00:22:01,278
and someone that I wanted
to be with for sex.
366
00:22:08,702 --> 00:22:09,953
[cheering]
367
00:22:10,037 --> 00:22:14,791
[woman] In 1978,
Steven Hicks was hitchhiking
368
00:22:14,875 --> 00:22:17,044
to a rock concert.
369
00:22:19,046 --> 00:22:23,967
[Wendy] One of the things
that Jeffrey was always interested in
370
00:22:24,843 --> 00:22:27,554
was the torso, the physique,
371
00:22:27,637 --> 00:22:31,641
how well-built,
how attractive the individual was.
372
00:22:32,684 --> 00:22:34,936
That was the driving force
of his attraction.
373
00:22:36,188 --> 00:22:39,941
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
That's what attracted me. The physique.
374
00:22:40,025 --> 00:22:41,860
Just the muscular physique.
375
00:22:42,444 --> 00:22:44,696
That's... That's the motivation.
376
00:22:45,614 --> 00:22:48,784
When Steven Hicks was hitchhiking
and didn't have a shirt on,
377
00:22:49,368 --> 00:22:52,871
he said to me, "This is unbelievable.
This was the fantasy I had."
378
00:22:53,538 --> 00:22:55,540
"Now I'm able to enact it."
379
00:22:56,083 --> 00:22:57,203
[Dr. Smail] Jeffrey thought,
380
00:22:57,250 --> 00:23:00,837
"What a great opportunity.
I've got a car, a house. Nobody around."
381
00:23:00,921 --> 00:23:04,466
"So let me see if I can get this guy
to come back to the house."
382
00:23:05,175 --> 00:23:07,427
He stopped, talked to him and said,
383
00:23:07,511 --> 00:23:09,888
"Look, I've got some beer
and pot at the house."
384
00:23:09,971 --> 00:23:12,682
"Do you wanna come back
and share that with me?"
385
00:23:13,517 --> 00:23:14,935
Steven Hicks said yes.
386
00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:17,687
[Wendy] Mr. Hicks was not gay.
387
00:23:18,397 --> 00:23:20,315
There wasn't any sexual interaction.
388
00:23:22,401 --> 00:23:24,778
[from recorder] You hadn't done
anything with him, had you?
389
00:23:24,861 --> 00:23:25,861
[Jeffrey] No.
390
00:23:26,905 --> 00:23:29,658
I just got the sense
he wasn't interested in that at all,
391
00:23:29,741 --> 00:23:31,743
after a while talking with him.
392
00:23:31,827 --> 00:23:33,995
So I don't believe I asked him, no.
393
00:23:34,788 --> 00:23:35,789
[Wendy] Okay.
394
00:23:36,706 --> 00:23:40,168
At some point,
Steven Hicks indicated to Jeffrey,
395
00:23:40,252 --> 00:23:42,921
"I gotta get going.
I can't stay here any longer."
396
00:23:43,004 --> 00:23:45,090
"People will be wondering where I am."
397
00:23:46,550 --> 00:23:48,093
Jeff didn't wanna let him go.
398
00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:52,848
[Jeffrey] It was the first time, uh...
399
00:23:53,473 --> 00:23:56,309
I did have the desire to control.
400
00:23:57,477 --> 00:23:59,020
I lost all feelings,
401
00:23:59,729 --> 00:24:02,607
so I guess I just decided
402
00:24:03,525 --> 00:24:06,486
to do it, whether he was, uh, gay or not.
403
00:24:06,570 --> 00:24:08,238
It didn't really matter.
404
00:24:10,699 --> 00:24:13,618
Dahmer took a barbell from a weight set
405
00:24:13,702 --> 00:24:16,288
and hit Steven Hicks
over the head with it.
406
00:24:17,706 --> 00:24:18,915
[thudding]
407
00:24:24,504 --> 00:24:25,672
[tape recorder clicks]
408
00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:34,055
[Jeffrey from recorder] I dunno why I hit
him, except I wanted to stay with him
409
00:24:34,139 --> 00:24:35,223
for longer.
410
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,394
[Dr. Smail] Steven is then
unconscious at this point,
411
00:24:39,478 --> 00:24:43,857
and Jeffrey uses the barbell
to... to strangle Steven.
412
00:24:44,566 --> 00:24:47,152
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
I thought how amazing it was
413
00:24:47,235 --> 00:24:50,739
that I was actually doing it
414
00:24:50,822 --> 00:24:52,365
to another human being.
415
00:24:52,449 --> 00:24:53,825
It shocked me
416
00:24:53,909 --> 00:24:55,994
that I got to that point.
417
00:24:57,287 --> 00:24:59,539
And that was a feeling of excitement,
418
00:24:59,623 --> 00:25:00,623
control,
419
00:25:01,166 --> 00:25:03,460
but mingled with a lot of fear.
420
00:25:04,586 --> 00:25:06,898
- [Wendy] What did you do with his body?
- [Jeffrey] Nothing.
421
00:25:06,922 --> 00:25:08,507
Just right under the...
422
00:25:09,299 --> 00:25:12,344
under the house in the crawl space area.
423
00:25:12,427 --> 00:25:14,947
- [Wendy] Did you go down and look at him?
- [Jeffrey] I did once.
424
00:25:14,971 --> 00:25:16,473
But just looked at him.
425
00:25:17,516 --> 00:25:20,602
[Wendy] What was going through your mind
as you were looking at him?
426
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:22,520
[Jeffrey] Uh...
427
00:25:23,522 --> 00:25:26,733
A sort of morbid curiosity as to...
428
00:25:28,610 --> 00:25:30,779
what a dead person looked like.
429
00:25:32,989 --> 00:25:33,989
Uh...
430
00:25:34,741 --> 00:25:37,869
Curiosity mixed with a lot of fear.
431
00:25:40,997 --> 00:25:42,499
[Wendy] It was after that
432
00:25:42,582 --> 00:25:46,253
that now he has this anxiety, uh, panic.
433
00:25:46,795 --> 00:25:50,340
"Uh, what am I gonna do with the body?
How am I gonna get rid of this?"
434
00:25:52,425 --> 00:25:54,594
[indistinct sounds on tape]
435
00:25:57,430 --> 00:26:00,100
[Jeffrey from recorder] I started
dismembering him and everything.
436
00:26:00,183 --> 00:26:02,727
There's something about him
that I remember.
437
00:26:02,811 --> 00:26:06,064
Cutting the legs off
and then the arms and head.
438
00:26:07,774 --> 00:26:09,276
[Wendy] Did you touch anything?
439
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,278
[Jeffrey] I... I probably did.
440
00:26:11,361 --> 00:26:12,821
Liver and the heart.
441
00:26:15,657 --> 00:26:17,867
He had the head separate for a while.
442
00:26:17,951 --> 00:26:21,121
He masturbated to the body parts.
443
00:26:21,997 --> 00:26:24,624
[Wendy from recorder] Did it concern you
at all as to why you felt
444
00:26:24,708 --> 00:26:26,459
such satisfaction at that time,
445
00:26:26,543 --> 00:26:30,046
when you were 18 years old,
by using him to masturbate?
446
00:26:30,797 --> 00:26:33,550
[Jeffrey] I'm not sure
I even know why now.
447
00:26:33,633 --> 00:26:36,970
I got, uh, an exciting feeling
out of doing that.
448
00:26:38,763 --> 00:26:39,889
But I did it.
449
00:26:40,807 --> 00:26:43,101
[Wendy] How long did you
keep him in the house with you?
450
00:26:43,184 --> 00:26:44,184
[Jeffrey] Um...
451
00:26:44,561 --> 00:26:46,730
I don't know. Six hours.
452
00:26:51,776 --> 00:26:53,653
He got the most satisfaction
453
00:26:53,737 --> 00:26:55,864
in what he did with the body afterwards.
454
00:26:57,157 --> 00:26:59,743
It was true
that he did have a sexual disorder.
455
00:27:00,869 --> 00:27:05,415
In an attempt to try
and get him through the insanity plea,
456
00:27:05,498 --> 00:27:09,502
I know that one of our experts,
uh, went into it a great deal.
457
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,048
[Fred Berlin] I'm a forensic psychiatrist.
458
00:27:13,590 --> 00:27:16,593
I was an expert witness
in the Jeffrey Dahmer case.
459
00:27:18,970 --> 00:27:22,223
My expertise is in paraphilias,
which is in layman's terms
460
00:27:22,307 --> 00:27:23,892
sexual deviation disorders.
461
00:27:23,975 --> 00:27:27,437
People have something different
or aberrant about their sexual makeup.
462
00:27:28,730 --> 00:27:31,566
My diagnosis of Mr. Dahmer
was necrophilia.
463
00:27:32,192 --> 00:27:34,694
Necrophilia is a condition
464
00:27:34,778 --> 00:27:36,655
in which an individual
465
00:27:36,738 --> 00:27:38,114
is very much aroused
466
00:27:38,198 --> 00:27:41,534
by having sex with individuals
after they've passed away.
467
00:27:43,203 --> 00:27:44,913
So there's the corpse.
468
00:27:45,497 --> 00:27:46,831
There's Jeffrey.
469
00:27:47,415 --> 00:27:51,211
About three o'clock in the morning,
he decided to dispose of the body
470
00:27:51,294 --> 00:27:53,421
by taking it to a ravine
471
00:27:53,505 --> 00:27:56,007
that he knew was some miles down the road.
472
00:28:00,887 --> 00:28:03,723
He took the body,
put the body into garbage bags,
473
00:28:03,807 --> 00:28:07,852
and was stopped by a police officer
because he crossed the median line.
474
00:28:08,770 --> 00:28:10,563
[police siren wailing]
475
00:28:12,023 --> 00:28:15,068
They tested him for drunken driving.
He passed.
476
00:28:15,151 --> 00:28:18,154
The officer took his flashlight
and flashed it into the back,
477
00:28:18,238 --> 00:28:21,658
and there was the garbage bag
with Hicks' dead body in it.
478
00:28:21,741 --> 00:28:25,537
The officer asked what it was. He said,
"The garbage. My parents are breaking up."
479
00:28:25,620 --> 00:28:28,581
"I'm alone. I couldn't sleep,
so I thought I'd get rid of the garbage."
480
00:28:28,665 --> 00:28:32,502
You've got a dead body in the seat
behind you that you've just killed,
481
00:28:32,585 --> 00:28:34,546
and you're now talking
with a police officer.
482
00:28:34,629 --> 00:28:36,589
You're an 18-year-old boy.
483
00:28:36,673 --> 00:28:40,176
Dahmer knew what was at stake,
and Dahmer was cool enough to say,
484
00:28:40,260 --> 00:28:43,888
"Just on the way to dump the garbage."
The officer believed him.
485
00:28:43,972 --> 00:28:47,517
Although he saw the bags,
he never looked in the bags.
486
00:28:48,351 --> 00:28:51,104
He was able to convince that officer.
487
00:28:51,688 --> 00:28:54,482
After that, he knew
that he could manipulate.
488
00:28:54,566 --> 00:28:58,486
He knew he could make a statement
to somebody and get away with it.
489
00:28:59,446 --> 00:29:01,990
He turned around
and went back to the house.
490
00:29:03,783 --> 00:29:08,496
He found a galvanized pipe.
He said it was about two feet,
491
00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:10,415
that he stuffed the bags into.
492
00:29:11,207 --> 00:29:13,960
Uh, he went out over the bridge,
over the river,
493
00:29:14,043 --> 00:29:17,422
and threw any other personal items
494
00:29:17,505 --> 00:29:19,174
of, uh, Mr. Hicks.
495
00:29:19,924 --> 00:29:22,552
Including a knife that he... that he used
496
00:29:22,635 --> 00:29:25,138
to cut the body into manageable pieces.
497
00:29:26,139 --> 00:29:28,224
[Jeffrey from recorder]
Dad was living at the hotel,
498
00:29:28,308 --> 00:29:31,603
so I was pretty much by myself
for a couple months.
499
00:29:32,395 --> 00:29:34,606
[Wendy] During the time
your father was at the hotel,
500
00:29:34,689 --> 00:29:36,608
how many times a day
would you speak with him?
501
00:29:37,650 --> 00:29:39,527
[Jeffrey] Maybe once or twice a week.
502
00:29:40,612 --> 00:29:43,740
His father and Shari,
his soon-to-be stepmother,
503
00:29:43,823 --> 00:29:45,200
came back to the house.
504
00:29:45,283 --> 00:29:47,327
There wasn't much food
in the refrigerator.
505
00:29:47,410 --> 00:29:49,370
Alcohol bottles were around.
506
00:29:49,454 --> 00:29:53,082
It looked like a life that was in trouble
as a young man.
507
00:29:54,167 --> 00:29:56,419
His father was quite concerned,
508
00:29:56,503 --> 00:29:58,421
so they moved back in.
509
00:30:02,759 --> 00:30:05,762
[Wendy playing from recorder] After that,
you said you went to Ohio State?
510
00:30:05,845 --> 00:30:07,514
[Jeffrey] For about three months.
511
00:30:09,599 --> 00:30:13,561
Did a lot of drinking there,
so grades weren't very good.
512
00:30:15,188 --> 00:30:16,988
[Smail] I think his dad
had gotten him into...
513
00:30:17,482 --> 00:30:18,942
It was Ohio State.
514
00:30:19,025 --> 00:30:21,778
He was drinking very heavily,
essentially flunked out.
515
00:30:22,821 --> 00:30:24,489
The decision was made
516
00:30:24,572 --> 00:30:27,826
by his dad and stepmother,
he would go into the army.
517
00:30:27,909 --> 00:30:29,702
[clipper buzzing]
518
00:30:29,786 --> 00:30:32,372
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
They sent me to basic training.
519
00:30:33,289 --> 00:30:34,958
Then field medic training.
520
00:30:36,835 --> 00:30:38,545
[Wendy] He indicated to me
521
00:30:38,628 --> 00:30:41,506
that this was something
that he learned about,
522
00:30:41,589 --> 00:30:44,133
being able to identify the organs,
523
00:30:44,217 --> 00:30:46,803
um, through his training in the military.
524
00:30:47,512 --> 00:30:51,140
[Dennis Murphy] Jeffrey Dahmer
was discharged because of drinking.
525
00:30:51,808 --> 00:30:53,994
[Jeffrey from recorder] I was
drinking heavily near the end,
526
00:30:54,018 --> 00:30:58,439
so I had to move back to Ohio
with the folks.
527
00:30:59,816 --> 00:31:03,319
When he came back and came to the house
three years later,
528
00:31:03,945 --> 00:31:06,614
the bags with Steven Hicks' body...
529
00:31:07,615 --> 00:31:09,325
Those bags were still there.
530
00:31:14,122 --> 00:31:17,834
[Mccann] Jeffrey Dahmer spread out
the remains of Steve Hicks
531
00:31:17,917 --> 00:31:20,670
over the one and a quarter wooded acres
532
00:31:20,753 --> 00:31:22,547
on which the family lived.
533
00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:26,009
Here's a fine young man
that disappeared into thin air.
534
00:31:28,928 --> 00:31:32,765
You can imagine.
They didn't learn this until July of 1991.
535
00:31:32,849 --> 00:31:36,686
Their son disappeared in June of 1978.
536
00:31:36,769 --> 00:31:38,438
For 13 years,
537
00:31:38,521 --> 00:31:42,066
that family had no idea
what had happened to their son,
538
00:31:42,150 --> 00:31:43,192
Steven Hicks.
539
00:31:44,027 --> 00:31:47,113
[ominous music playing]
540
00:31:51,868 --> 00:31:54,579
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
I was troubled about that.
541
00:31:57,081 --> 00:32:00,168
[Wendy] How did it manifest itself
that you were troubled by it?
542
00:32:00,251 --> 00:32:01,920
What were you feeling?
543
00:32:02,003 --> 00:32:03,296
[Jeffrey] A lot of guilt.
544
00:32:04,422 --> 00:32:06,549
Indecision over whether I should
545
00:32:07,759 --> 00:32:08,843
confess to it.
546
00:32:13,014 --> 00:32:15,433
But I just never had the courage to.
547
00:32:15,516 --> 00:32:17,101
[Wendy] What were you thinking?
548
00:32:17,810 --> 00:32:21,022
[Jeffrey] Well,
I knew how horribly wrong it was.
549
00:32:22,482 --> 00:32:26,569
And I never wanted to have
anything like that ever happen again.
550
00:32:27,195 --> 00:32:29,572
[ominous music builds to climax]
551
00:32:32,116 --> 00:32:33,826
[tape rolling]
552
00:32:38,790 --> 00:32:40,917
[Murphy] During our interview
with Jeffrey Dahmer,
553
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,045
we talked to him about family members,
554
00:32:44,128 --> 00:32:46,631
and Jeff says,
"Leave my family out of it."
555
00:32:47,507 --> 00:32:51,719
He says, "My parents don't have
any knowledge of my activities."
556
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,305
I... I told Lionel,
557
00:32:54,389 --> 00:32:55,723
Jeff's father,
558
00:32:56,391 --> 00:32:59,560
about the homicides,
and his reaction was shock.
559
00:33:00,144 --> 00:33:03,690
He couldn't understand
how his kid would do this to someone.
560
00:33:04,607 --> 00:33:07,443
How is his family reacting to all of this?
561
00:33:08,111 --> 00:33:10,989
I can only state
that, uh, it would be predictable
562
00:33:11,072 --> 00:33:13,741
as to how anyone's family
would react to this.
563
00:33:13,825 --> 00:33:17,829
They likewise are extremely despairing.
564
00:33:18,454 --> 00:33:21,708
They feel horrible
for the tragedy that has happened,
565
00:33:22,291 --> 00:33:25,420
including the victims
and the victims' family.
566
00:33:25,503 --> 00:33:28,464
And, of course,
feel great grief for their son.
567
00:33:28,548 --> 00:33:31,217
It's a very fine and wonderful family.
568
00:33:31,759 --> 00:33:34,429
His father Lionel is just a marvelous man,
569
00:33:34,512 --> 00:33:37,098
and he is hurting as badly as anyone.
570
00:33:38,057 --> 00:33:43,229
[Lionel Dahmer] I love him.
I did not realize just how sick he was.
571
00:33:43,938 --> 00:33:46,983
And I will, as I always have,
572
00:33:47,066 --> 00:33:49,444
stand by him in my thoughts and prayers.
573
00:33:50,278 --> 00:33:51,946
[uneasy music playing]
574
00:33:55,533 --> 00:33:57,994
- [lighter flickers]
- [Wendy] Detectives allowed him to smoke
575
00:33:58,077 --> 00:34:00,788
and to have as much coffee
as he wanted as well.
576
00:34:01,789 --> 00:34:04,000
It kept him calm and on track,
577
00:34:04,083 --> 00:34:07,879
and I think without those,
we wouldn't have gotten all the story.
578
00:34:08,463 --> 00:34:11,758
Because he was willing to talk
longer and longer
579
00:34:11,841 --> 00:34:14,677
as long as he could
continue to have those two things.
580
00:34:15,344 --> 00:34:17,904
[Jeffrey from recorder]
It's difficult dredging up these feelings
581
00:34:17,930 --> 00:34:19,515
and motivations, you know.
582
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:22,935
[Wendy] I know it's real hard.
If it gets too difficult, tell me.
583
00:34:23,478 --> 00:34:25,398
- You realize why...
- [Jeffrey] Yes, it... it...
584
00:34:25,772 --> 00:34:28,066
Talking about it and analyzing it
585
00:34:29,108 --> 00:34:30,860
shows me just how,
586
00:34:30,943 --> 00:34:33,613
uh, warped my thinking was.
587
00:34:35,865 --> 00:34:38,451
My relationship with him, as it grew,
588
00:34:38,534 --> 00:34:41,412
um, he would be more and more willing
589
00:34:41,496 --> 00:34:45,249
to, um, expound
on the nuances of each case,
590
00:34:45,333 --> 00:34:46,793
of each murder.
591
00:34:48,169 --> 00:34:51,297
There were times
that I felt like a mother to him.
592
00:34:51,380 --> 00:34:54,383
There were times that I felt like... like
he was my brother.
593
00:34:54,467 --> 00:34:57,553
There were times
that I felt like he... I was his therapist.
594
00:34:59,430 --> 00:35:01,933
[playing from recorder]
You ever try to develop a relationship?
595
00:35:02,016 --> 00:35:05,061
[Jeffrey] Uh, no. I can't say that I did.
596
00:35:05,144 --> 00:35:06,562
[Wendy] Why not?
597
00:35:06,646 --> 00:35:09,899
[Jeffrey] Well, it was because
of the home situation.
598
00:35:09,982 --> 00:35:11,901
I couldn't carry on
599
00:35:11,984 --> 00:35:15,113
a long-term relationship
where I was staying.
600
00:35:16,030 --> 00:35:21,077
Jeff's father suggested
moving in with grandma, which he did.
601
00:35:21,661 --> 00:35:25,039
[Murphy] After I informed Katherine,
his grandmother,
602
00:35:25,123 --> 00:35:28,042
about his activities and what he did,
603
00:35:28,126 --> 00:35:30,086
she... she broke down and cried.
604
00:35:30,711 --> 00:35:32,296
She didn't believe it.
605
00:35:32,380 --> 00:35:36,759
She said she didn't want
to get involved in his activities.
606
00:35:39,220 --> 00:35:43,182
And she didn't want to know
what was going on in the basement.
607
00:35:48,396 --> 00:35:49,814
[tape rolling]
608
00:35:58,781 --> 00:36:00,843
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
I had moved out then,
609
00:36:00,867 --> 00:36:03,161
to here up in Wisconsin
610
00:36:03,244 --> 00:36:04,871
to help my grandma out.
611
00:36:05,872 --> 00:36:08,624
It was, "Well, why don't you
go and move with Grandma?"
612
00:36:08,708 --> 00:36:13,254
"A place that would be healthy for you.
She's getting older. She needs the help."
613
00:36:13,921 --> 00:36:16,757
"And start, you know, in a new city."
614
00:36:17,758 --> 00:36:20,386
Jeffrey told me
he loved his grandmother very much.
615
00:36:23,014 --> 00:36:24,432
[Dr. Smail] Jeffrey's grandmother
616
00:36:24,515 --> 00:36:27,894
was described by Jeffrey
as a perfect grandmother.
617
00:36:28,477 --> 00:36:29,729
South Side, Milwaukee.
618
00:36:30,605 --> 00:36:32,607
Religious, caring.
619
00:36:33,274 --> 00:36:34,775
A very, very nice person.
620
00:36:34,859 --> 00:36:38,905
And this is the environment
in which Lionel Dahmer grew up in.
621
00:36:38,988 --> 00:36:41,782
[Wendy] She was very supportive,
and she loved Jeff.
622
00:36:41,866 --> 00:36:45,077
It was very clear that he wasn't
that close with his mom and dad.
623
00:36:46,621 --> 00:36:49,457
Grandma's house was in West Allis,
a suburb of Milwaukee.
624
00:36:50,291 --> 00:36:53,002
[Jeffrey playing from recorder] Uh,
I helped her with the yard work
625
00:36:53,085 --> 00:36:54,212
and various chores.
626
00:36:55,838 --> 00:36:59,217
[Dr. Smail] When Jeffrey moved in,
I don't think she put much demands on him.
627
00:36:59,884 --> 00:37:03,054
It isn't clear to me
if she knew his sexuality.
628
00:37:03,846 --> 00:37:05,139
But Jeffrey was aware
629
00:37:05,223 --> 00:37:08,392
that had she known that,
she would've been quite judgmental.
630
00:37:09,393 --> 00:37:10,978
[Wendy] At that time,
631
00:37:11,062 --> 00:37:13,606
coming out, it was completely different.
632
00:37:13,689 --> 00:37:17,652
That was a struggle for him. He told me.
He said, "I don't like being gay."
633
00:37:21,530 --> 00:37:24,325
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
I really made a sincere effort
634
00:37:24,825 --> 00:37:27,745
to change the way I was living,
635
00:37:27,828 --> 00:37:29,288
to change my desires.
636
00:37:29,872 --> 00:37:32,959
To get rid of the, uh...
637
00:37:33,042 --> 00:37:36,545
homosexual, uh, feelings that I had.
638
00:37:37,088 --> 00:37:39,757
Any sinful thoughts.
639
00:37:41,133 --> 00:37:43,511
Started going to church with Grandma
640
00:37:43,594 --> 00:37:45,221
on a regular basis.
641
00:37:46,389 --> 00:37:48,557
And, uh, tried to stifle
642
00:37:48,641 --> 00:37:51,727
any sexual feelings that I had.
643
00:37:53,813 --> 00:37:57,483
I think that really, uh, you know,
started to change him.
644
00:37:57,566 --> 00:37:59,527
He would read the Bible.
645
00:37:59,610 --> 00:38:03,364
They, you know, spent
a lot of time together at dinners.
646
00:38:03,447 --> 00:38:04,323
[recorder clicks]
647
00:38:04,407 --> 00:38:07,576
[Jeffrey playing from recorder] My grandma
was going to church every Sunday.
648
00:38:08,077 --> 00:38:09,745
[Wendy] What denomination is she?
649
00:38:09,829 --> 00:38:10,997
[Jeffrey] Protestant.
650
00:38:14,041 --> 00:38:17,044
He was going to church.
He was praying he would find some way
651
00:38:17,128 --> 00:38:21,382
to fight off these urges,
these... these pathological sexual cravings.
652
00:38:21,465 --> 00:38:22,967
It was during that time period
653
00:38:23,050 --> 00:38:26,304
that he tried to create surrogates
to not take a... a human life.
654
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,768
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
I was walking around Southridge
655
00:38:33,561 --> 00:38:35,563
and, uh, saw this mannequin
656
00:38:35,646 --> 00:38:38,024
that sort of caught my eye.
657
00:38:38,107 --> 00:38:40,818
I wanted that mannequin, so I...
658
00:38:42,403 --> 00:38:43,904
went in the store.
659
00:38:43,988 --> 00:38:45,406
There's nobody in there.
660
00:38:45,489 --> 00:38:47,950
Stayed there until closing time.
661
00:38:48,034 --> 00:38:50,328
- [Wendy] And no alarms went off?
- [Jeffrey] No, nothing.
662
00:38:50,411 --> 00:38:52,204
I got the mannequin undressed,
663
00:38:52,288 --> 00:38:53,539
got a taxi back home,
664
00:38:53,622 --> 00:38:56,208
and stored it in the garage
665
00:38:56,292 --> 00:38:58,252
at, uh, Grandma's house.
666
00:38:58,878 --> 00:39:01,339
And I used to play around with it after...
667
00:39:02,923 --> 00:39:05,009
dressing it up and undressing it.
668
00:39:06,927 --> 00:39:08,554
Pretending it was real.
669
00:39:11,140 --> 00:39:14,643
[Dr. Dietz] He did use it
to lie with it and masturbate,
670
00:39:14,727 --> 00:39:17,813
which wasn't as good as a person.
671
00:39:17,897 --> 00:39:19,440
He found it disappointing.
672
00:39:20,399 --> 00:39:23,944
A faceless mannequin from a department
store didn't cut it for him.
673
00:39:25,321 --> 00:39:28,824
[Jeffrey plays from recorder] After a week
or two, Grandma would stumble across it.
674
00:39:28,908 --> 00:39:32,370
She was hanging up some clothes
that she'd washed for me.
675
00:39:32,453 --> 00:39:34,955
- [Wendy] She did?
- [Jeffrey] Yeah. She asked me what was it.
676
00:39:35,039 --> 00:39:36,332
Where did I get it.
677
00:39:36,415 --> 00:39:40,002
And I gave her some story
that I picked it up at...
678
00:39:40,086 --> 00:39:42,671
They had extra mannequins
that they were selling.
679
00:39:42,755 --> 00:39:46,384
I think she called Dad,
so I figured I better get rid of it.
680
00:39:46,467 --> 00:39:49,053
Took it down to the basement and, uh,
681
00:39:49,136 --> 00:39:52,431
smashed it up,
and threw it out in the garbage.
682
00:39:53,933 --> 00:39:55,684
[eerie music playing]
683
00:40:01,399 --> 00:40:03,859
[Dr. Dietz]
I've seen about 20 serial killers.
684
00:40:04,568 --> 00:40:06,987
Not all of them sexual but most.
685
00:40:07,655 --> 00:40:10,408
And I've seen a number of mass murderers,
686
00:40:10,491 --> 00:40:13,911
and I was approached
by the district attorney's office
687
00:40:13,994 --> 00:40:15,621
to evaluate Mr. Dahmer.
688
00:40:16,539 --> 00:40:20,876
Saw him for three days
and later testified at his trial.
689
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,296
The extraordinary thing
in comparing Jeffrey Dahmer
690
00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:29,260
to other serial killers I've interviewed
is how he lacked defensiveness about it.
691
00:40:29,844 --> 00:40:33,764
He wasn't, as far as I could tell,
trying to hide anything from me.
692
00:40:33,848 --> 00:40:38,060
I do think that he sought to find
another solution for a time.
693
00:40:38,644 --> 00:40:43,190
But when Dahmer
was trying to avoid alcohol,
694
00:40:43,691 --> 00:40:47,153
uh, trying to avoid gay sex
695
00:40:47,236 --> 00:40:50,448
because of his religious inhibitions
against it,
696
00:40:51,949 --> 00:40:55,619
he had what was for him
an unprecedented experience
697
00:40:55,703 --> 00:40:59,290
of a man dropping a note in the library,
698
00:40:59,373 --> 00:41:01,959
offering him a blow job in the bathroom.
699
00:41:03,544 --> 00:41:06,380
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
I was in the West Allis library...
700
00:41:06,464 --> 00:41:07,548
[sniffs]
701
00:41:07,631 --> 00:41:10,092
...just sitting in a chair, reading a book.
702
00:41:11,135 --> 00:41:13,637
It was the last thing I expected,
you know?
703
00:41:14,472 --> 00:41:18,184
I just laughed it off to myself.
I thought, uh,
704
00:41:18,267 --> 00:41:21,687
"That's an awful feeble,
705
00:41:21,770 --> 00:41:24,815
uh, attempt to get me to stumble,"
706
00:41:25,441 --> 00:41:26,442
you know?
707
00:41:26,984 --> 00:41:29,195
I never saw his face or anything.
708
00:41:31,322 --> 00:41:34,402
[Wendy] You'd put the compulsion to rest
when you went to church with Grandma,
709
00:41:34,450 --> 00:41:36,785
and it came back stronger, didn't it?
710
00:41:37,828 --> 00:41:39,997
[Jeffrey] That's what triggered it,
I guess.
711
00:41:41,999 --> 00:41:46,378
This made him begin thinking
about gay sex much more
712
00:41:46,921 --> 00:41:49,173
and realizing he could go get it.
713
00:41:50,549 --> 00:41:54,094
So in that sense,
it did open the world to him.
714
00:41:54,887 --> 00:41:58,516
And there came a time
when he threw caution to the winds.
715
00:41:59,558 --> 00:42:01,101
[suspenseful music playing]
716
00:42:04,522 --> 00:42:06,607
[Anne Schwartz] Jeffrey Dahmer got a job.
717
00:42:07,816 --> 00:42:09,902
He was a mixer
718
00:42:09,985 --> 00:42:12,404
at the Ambrosia chocolate factory.
719
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,032
He worked the night shifts.
720
00:42:15,616 --> 00:42:19,203
It was a job that enabled him
721
00:42:19,286 --> 00:42:21,330
to go out on the weekends.
722
00:42:22,456 --> 00:42:25,536
[Jeffrey playing from recorder] I at least
had a job that paid halfway decent.
723
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,045
I could look forward to free time.
724
00:42:28,128 --> 00:42:29,338
Privacy.
725
00:42:31,173 --> 00:42:32,925
Started drinking again,
726
00:42:33,884 --> 00:42:35,427
going to the bookstores.
727
00:42:36,387 --> 00:42:37,471
Uh...
728
00:42:38,097 --> 00:42:41,892
Found out where the gay bars were
and started going to them.
729
00:42:42,685 --> 00:42:45,771
What I was looking for
was some live companionship.
730
00:42:46,272 --> 00:42:48,148
Someone to spend the night with.
731
00:42:48,232 --> 00:42:51,944
A man I had complete control over,
732
00:42:52,528 --> 00:42:55,030
and to be able to do with as I pleased.
733
00:42:55,614 --> 00:42:57,366
Something real,
734
00:42:57,449 --> 00:43:00,452
uh, instead of fake like the mannequin.
735
00:43:00,536 --> 00:43:02,121
So that was my fantasy.
736
00:43:04,081 --> 00:43:07,209
Little by little, I started falling away...
737
00:43:12,131 --> 00:43:15,092
I just, uh, gave up trying to resist.
738
00:43:18,262 --> 00:43:22,141
I knew Jeffrey Dahmer
and several of his victims.
739
00:43:23,392 --> 00:43:25,644
After this all came out,
740
00:43:25,728 --> 00:43:29,648
several people in the bars said,
"I remember him. I remember him."
741
00:43:29,732 --> 00:43:32,651
Well, of course. We all did.
Milwaukee's only this big.
742
00:43:32,735 --> 00:43:34,528
[vibrant music playing]
743
00:43:36,572 --> 00:43:38,240
[Ross] The 1980s.
744
00:43:39,199 --> 00:43:42,745
Gay life was really up-and-coming
745
00:43:42,828 --> 00:43:44,330
in Milwaukee.
746
00:43:45,331 --> 00:43:47,249
It wasn't as exclusive
747
00:43:47,333 --> 00:43:49,918
as Chicago and New York and LA,
748
00:43:50,544 --> 00:43:52,921
but for a city like Milwaukee,
749
00:43:53,756 --> 00:43:54,923
we had a good time.
750
00:43:55,007 --> 00:43:56,383
We had a ball.
751
00:43:59,011 --> 00:44:01,639
You could go out almost any night,
752
00:44:01,722 --> 00:44:04,183
and there'd be something
going on somewhere.
753
00:44:05,434 --> 00:44:07,144
[Ross] You could be yourself.
754
00:44:07,227 --> 00:44:09,063
You had freedom.
755
00:44:10,230 --> 00:44:12,524
So you were comfortable.
756
00:44:12,608 --> 00:44:16,070
I mean, we'd get dressed up
and go to the bar.
757
00:44:17,154 --> 00:44:19,907
The bars had beautiful music.
758
00:44:20,491 --> 00:44:22,493
People always wanted to dance.
759
00:44:24,453 --> 00:44:27,998
[Connor] The area for the gay bars
pretty much was centrally located.
760
00:44:28,624 --> 00:44:33,337
They were all within, I'd say,
an eight, nine-block radius of each other.
761
00:44:34,922 --> 00:44:37,049
You could easily walk from place to place.
762
00:44:38,550 --> 00:44:43,013
[Ross] We were all just coming into
who we are.
763
00:44:43,847 --> 00:44:45,599
Accepting ourselves.
764
00:44:47,142 --> 00:44:50,896
A lot of those people
were beautiful souls.
765
00:44:59,363 --> 00:45:01,782
[Michail Takach]
I had lived in Milwaukee my entire life
766
00:45:01,865 --> 00:45:06,036
and was involved in the community
from an early age.
767
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,331
During that time,
I was also a columnist and journalist
768
00:45:09,415 --> 00:45:10,749
in the Milwaukee area.
769
00:45:12,167 --> 00:45:14,169
Dahmer operating in this space,
770
00:45:14,837 --> 00:45:16,922
he carefully selected these places.
771
00:45:17,005 --> 00:45:19,341
The demographics, the customer base,
772
00:45:19,425 --> 00:45:20,926
the locations.
773
00:45:21,009 --> 00:45:22,720
These were not brightly lit streets.
774
00:45:22,803 --> 00:45:26,348
These were not places where people
would park their car and feel safe.
775
00:45:26,890 --> 00:45:30,185
That lack of transparency
really made it easy
776
00:45:30,269 --> 00:45:34,189
for someone like Dahmer
to be a predator in those spaces
777
00:45:34,273 --> 00:45:37,985
because no one knew what these people's
real names were in the first place.
778
00:45:38,068 --> 00:45:41,739
[reporter] Gay men often rely on the cover
of darkness to hide their second life
779
00:45:41,822 --> 00:45:44,450
from a good job, wife and kids.
780
00:45:44,533 --> 00:45:48,537
The president of Gay People's Union says
the relationship between homosexual men
781
00:45:48,620 --> 00:45:50,456
is often shrouded by secrecy.
782
00:45:52,791 --> 00:45:55,669
A long-running tradition
of the gay community
783
00:45:55,753 --> 00:45:57,004
was the bathhouse.
784
00:45:59,506 --> 00:46:00,966
By the 1970s and 1980s,
785
00:46:01,049 --> 00:46:04,136
they were really strictly being used
as social spaces
786
00:46:04,219 --> 00:46:06,472
for gay men to meet each other for sex.
787
00:46:08,098 --> 00:46:11,143
You could go to the bathhouse and get just
788
00:46:11,935 --> 00:46:15,481
as naked as you were born into the world,
and walk around freely.
789
00:46:15,981 --> 00:46:18,275
You see somebody you want,
and you do what you do.
790
00:46:18,358 --> 00:46:20,569
Because it was anonymous.
791
00:46:20,652 --> 00:46:24,656
You know, you didn't have to know them.
People were just trying to have sex.
792
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:30,496
[Takach] In Milwaukee, the most
popular bathhouse was called Club Baths.
793
00:46:32,164 --> 00:46:35,417
It was a second floor,
only accessible by the alley.
794
00:46:35,501 --> 00:46:38,962
Um, unfortunately, it was also
a popular place with Jeffrey Dahmer.
795
00:46:41,048 --> 00:46:44,218
[Mccann] He'd meet men in bathhouses
and have sexual activities with them.
796
00:46:44,301 --> 00:46:46,929
However, Dahmer didn't wanna
submit to anybody.
797
00:46:47,429 --> 00:46:49,723
Jeffrey wanted to be completely in charge.
798
00:46:50,224 --> 00:46:53,393
So Dahmer started bringing drugs
into the bathhouses.
799
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,688
[Wendy from recorder]
What sleeping pills did you use?
800
00:46:56,772 --> 00:46:58,065
[Jeffrey] Uh, Halcion.
801
00:46:58,148 --> 00:47:00,275
[Wendy] Why did you get that prescription?
802
00:47:01,944 --> 00:47:03,654
[Jeffrey] For trouble sleeping.
803
00:47:03,737 --> 00:47:05,072
I worked third shift.
804
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:08,367
[Wendy] That gave you
a feeling of control?
805
00:47:08,450 --> 00:47:09,450
[Jeffrey] Uh...
806
00:47:10,410 --> 00:47:12,663
Well, I could keep them there longer.
807
00:47:13,205 --> 00:47:15,874
I could, uh, just lay around with them
808
00:47:15,958 --> 00:47:19,795
without feeling pressure
to do anything that they wanted to do.
809
00:47:20,295 --> 00:47:21,588
Uh...
810
00:47:22,756 --> 00:47:24,508
There just wouldn't be any...
811
00:47:24,591 --> 00:47:27,010
They wouldn't make any demands on me.
812
00:47:27,094 --> 00:47:30,639
Uh, I could just enjoy them
the way I wanted to.
813
00:47:32,099 --> 00:47:35,269
[Wendy] Did you think about at all
how they might have felt?
814
00:47:35,352 --> 00:47:38,772
[Jeffrey] Yeah, I think I did,
but at that point I didn't much care.
815
00:47:38,856 --> 00:47:41,441
I just wanted to do what I wanted.
816
00:47:41,525 --> 00:47:43,443
So I didn't care.
817
00:47:45,112 --> 00:47:48,490
That solved his problem
of not wanting people to leave,
818
00:47:48,574 --> 00:47:52,536
and to be able to lie together
for a prolonged period,
819
00:47:52,619 --> 00:47:55,789
which was a primary wish he had.
820
00:47:55,873 --> 00:47:58,208
These people were not conscious.
There weren't mobile.
821
00:47:58,292 --> 00:47:59,892
They weren't able to protect themselves.
822
00:47:59,918 --> 00:48:04,089
And they're engaging in sexual acts
against their wills.
823
00:48:05,924 --> 00:48:08,260
[Mccann] At one point,
he over-drugged someone,
824
00:48:08,343 --> 00:48:10,846
and when the guy
with difficulty waking him up,
825
00:48:10,929 --> 00:48:13,140
the bath owner,
had to summon medical help.
826
00:48:18,562 --> 00:48:21,690
And thereafter the word got out,
"Don't let Dahmer in your bathhouse."
827
00:48:23,609 --> 00:48:27,696
The police did not investigate
these cases as rape,
828
00:48:27,779 --> 00:48:29,489
or sexual assault,
829
00:48:29,573 --> 00:48:31,575
or disorderly conduct even.
830
00:48:31,658 --> 00:48:34,661
They essentially just told
the bathhouse operator
831
00:48:34,745 --> 00:48:38,790
to notify them if he returned,
and keep him off the property.
832
00:48:39,333 --> 00:48:44,129
I don't think they accepted the fact
that a man could be raped.
833
00:48:45,505 --> 00:48:49,343
He was a marked man.
He wasn't able to go there anymore.
834
00:48:51,595 --> 00:48:53,865
[Wendy playing from recorder]
Did any of that satisfy you?
835
00:48:53,889 --> 00:48:56,516
As far as really getting
any true satisfaction?
836
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:57,600
[Jeffrey] It didn't.
837
00:48:58,352 --> 00:49:01,146
I didn't have control over them. I...
838
00:49:02,731 --> 00:49:05,734
I wanted all of them, you know.
839
00:49:05,817 --> 00:49:08,320
And, uh, couldn't get it that way.
840
00:49:11,907 --> 00:49:13,659
[tape rolling]
841
00:49:16,286 --> 00:49:18,080
[dance music playing]
842
00:49:19,206 --> 00:49:21,375
[Wendy] Jeffrey was out one night,
843
00:49:22,584 --> 00:49:25,003
and he met Steven Tuomi.
844
00:49:25,545 --> 00:49:27,965
And he wanted to spend a night with him,
845
00:49:28,548 --> 00:49:31,718
and it was too difficult
at his grandmother's house.
846
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:36,139
So they took a room
over at the Ambassador Hotel.
847
00:49:36,223 --> 00:49:37,933
[uneasy music playing]
848
00:49:43,647 --> 00:49:44,647
[elevator dings]
849
00:49:45,857 --> 00:49:48,193
And drank a great deal.
850
00:49:50,487 --> 00:49:52,447
And they had a night together.
851
00:50:01,123 --> 00:50:02,874
The following morning,
852
00:50:02,958 --> 00:50:05,293
Jeff ended up waking up
853
00:50:05,961 --> 00:50:07,504
after being in a blackout.
854
00:50:08,380 --> 00:50:10,260
[playing from recorder]
You totally blacked out?
855
00:50:10,340 --> 00:50:11,174
[Jeffrey] Yeah.
856
00:50:11,258 --> 00:50:12,858
[Wendy] Had no idea you'd done anything?
857
00:50:12,884 --> 00:50:15,262
[Jeffrey] No.
Not until I woke up in the morning.
858
00:50:15,345 --> 00:50:16,805
I couldn't believe it.
859
00:50:17,389 --> 00:50:19,641
His hands were bloody.
The sheets were bloody.
860
00:50:19,725 --> 00:50:21,727
This guy's face was bloody.
861
00:50:23,145 --> 00:50:25,814
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
Shocked. Uh...
862
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:27,482
Panicked.
863
00:50:28,358 --> 00:50:29,651
And, uh...
864
00:50:30,819 --> 00:50:32,279
very sorry that it happened
865
00:50:32,362 --> 00:50:35,949
because I had no intention
of anything like that happening.
866
00:50:36,033 --> 00:50:38,136
[Wendy] How'd you know he was dead?
You check his pulse?
867
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:39,453
[Jeffrey] I was afraid. No.
868
00:50:40,287 --> 00:50:42,831
And there was blood
coming out of the mouth.
869
00:50:43,415 --> 00:50:47,878
Apparently, I had beaten him
with my fists on the chest.
870
00:50:50,756 --> 00:50:54,259
There's blood everywhere.
He said he was in an alcoholic blackout.
871
00:50:56,053 --> 00:50:57,596
It was a surprise to him.
872
00:50:58,722 --> 00:51:01,725
So there wasn't an actual intent.
It wasn't a fantasy.
873
00:51:02,893 --> 00:51:05,437
But what his deepest desire was
still came out.
874
00:51:08,065 --> 00:51:09,665
[Berlin] It's clear he hadn't planned it
875
00:51:09,691 --> 00:51:11,985
because he signed into the hotel
for one day,
876
00:51:12,069 --> 00:51:16,031
and he had to sign in for a second day
to buy some time to get rid of the body.
877
00:51:17,699 --> 00:51:20,535
[Boyle] He went out
and went to a luggage store,
878
00:51:20,619 --> 00:51:23,663
and got a big trunk,
and brought it into the hotel.
879
00:51:24,664 --> 00:51:28,085
And he took the trunk up to his room
880
00:51:28,168 --> 00:51:31,338
and got Mr. Tuomi into the trunk.
881
00:51:31,421 --> 00:51:34,466
He then had a cab driver
come and pick him up.
882
00:51:40,472 --> 00:51:42,432
Dahmer said the cab driver even said,
883
00:51:42,516 --> 00:51:45,310
"You must have a dead body in here."
The case was so heavy.
884
00:51:46,645 --> 00:51:50,440
He then took Steven Tuomi's body
back to the grandmother's house
885
00:51:51,066 --> 00:51:53,193
and secretly disposed of his body.
886
00:51:54,444 --> 00:51:57,280
[Wendy] He cut off the parts of the body,
put it into Hefty bags,
887
00:51:57,364 --> 00:51:58,824
and threw it in the dumpster.
888
00:51:58,907 --> 00:52:00,534
[eerie music playing]
889
00:52:04,955 --> 00:52:06,706
[tape rolling]
890
00:52:11,044 --> 00:52:13,204
[reporter] Tuomi grew up
in Michigan's Upper Peninsula,
891
00:52:13,255 --> 00:52:16,591
in the small town of Ontonagon,
where most everyone knew him.
892
00:52:16,675 --> 00:52:20,137
And he was a real quiet kid,
and that's how I knew him.
893
00:52:20,220 --> 00:52:22,639
He was real quiet
and never bothered anybody.
894
00:52:22,722 --> 00:52:26,977
Steven Tuomi moved to Milwaukee
sometime in the mid-1980s
895
00:52:27,060 --> 00:52:29,646
and took up working as a short-order cook.
896
00:52:29,729 --> 00:52:33,650
The last time anyone saw him
was in the fall of 1987.
897
00:52:34,693 --> 00:52:38,321
[Kenneth Meuler] After his confession,
I believed what Dahmer said
898
00:52:38,405 --> 00:52:42,033
because he had no reason
not to tell us the truth.
899
00:52:42,117 --> 00:52:45,245
He had no reason to tell us
that was a victim that he killed,
900
00:52:45,328 --> 00:52:49,332
because that was one of the victims
that we had a little evidence of.
901
00:52:49,416 --> 00:52:53,420
It was Dahmer's statement
and putting together in great detail.
902
00:52:54,212 --> 00:52:58,466
There's no reason not to believe
factual information that Dahmer gave us.
903
00:52:59,259 --> 00:53:03,346
After his confession,
I met with the family in Upper Michigan.
904
00:53:04,890 --> 00:53:09,769
Their son went down to Milwaukee
to get work in a more urban area.
905
00:53:09,853 --> 00:53:13,440
To try to find out
what he wanted to do with his life.
906
00:53:13,523 --> 00:53:15,025
The family never sees him again.
907
00:53:17,569 --> 00:53:20,864
And I think they had
a very difficult time accepting it.
908
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,745
[Wendy playing from recorder] How did you
feel after that time at the Ambassador?
909
00:53:27,537 --> 00:53:28,580
[Jeffrey] Horrified...
910
00:53:29,623 --> 00:53:32,042
that it started again, you know.
911
00:53:32,125 --> 00:53:36,338
And I never wanted to have
anything like that ever happen again.
912
00:53:37,005 --> 00:53:41,009
[Wendy] How did you feel that it came
forth even though you were unconscious?
913
00:53:42,010 --> 00:53:44,221
[Jeffrey] Uh, confused.
914
00:53:45,388 --> 00:53:47,766
[Wendy] Did you feel
you'd started to lose control?
915
00:53:47,849 --> 00:53:49,434
[Jeffrey] Yeah, I knew I had. Yeah.
916
00:53:51,519 --> 00:53:54,606
That was the first slaying here.
It went from 1978,
917
00:53:54,689 --> 00:53:57,609
the slaying of Steven Hicks,
to November of 1987,
918
00:53:57,692 --> 00:53:59,402
the slaying of Steven Tuomi.
919
00:53:59,486 --> 00:54:02,739
The first killing had been
by the time when he was 18 years old.
920
00:54:03,782 --> 00:54:06,034
He then went for nine years
without killing.
921
00:54:06,618 --> 00:54:09,120
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
The Ambassador did something..
922
00:54:09,204 --> 00:54:10,747
It triggered something
923
00:54:12,540 --> 00:54:14,292
I wanted more.
924
00:54:14,376 --> 00:54:17,504
I don't know what it triggered,
but it triggered something.
925
00:54:17,587 --> 00:54:20,674
The Tuomi murder
was a turning point for him.
926
00:54:21,424 --> 00:54:25,303
He finally decided,
"I'm losing this fight with myself."
927
00:54:25,387 --> 00:54:27,264
"I can't control it any longer."
928
00:54:27,347 --> 00:54:30,350
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
It just gave me a sick pleasure.
929
00:54:30,433 --> 00:54:33,603
It dominated my thoughts,
doing these things.
930
00:54:35,313 --> 00:54:38,942
The danger could be someone who looks
just like your next door neighbor.
931
00:54:39,025 --> 00:54:43,321
He passed on the street
as a very normal person.
932
00:54:43,405 --> 00:54:45,282
He didn't look scary.
933
00:54:45,365 --> 00:54:47,909
[Mccann] There's a serial slayer
in Milwaukee.
934
00:54:47,993 --> 00:54:50,120
No one except Dahmer
935
00:54:50,203 --> 00:54:53,915
knew that a serial slayer
was loose in our city.
936
00:54:53,999 --> 00:54:57,544
The police just didn't know.
Nobody in the community knew.
937
00:54:58,295 --> 00:55:01,881
[Berlin] After years of trying
to resist these urges, he just gave up.
938
00:55:01,965 --> 00:55:05,427
Became like a killing machine
who was totally out of control.
939
00:55:06,011 --> 00:55:09,222
[Jeffrey from recorder] The compulsion
was stronger than any... anything else.
940
00:55:12,142 --> 00:55:15,437
It was a single-minded, driving force.
941
00:55:16,980 --> 00:55:17,980
My...
942
00:55:18,523 --> 00:55:20,483
desires, uh, were
943
00:55:21,526 --> 00:55:23,153
bestial, obviously.
944
00:55:23,236 --> 00:55:24,236
[scoffs]
945
00:55:24,821 --> 00:55:30,869
[eerie music swells, fades]
946
00:55:30,952 --> 00:55:32,871
[somber music playing]