1 00:02:13,467 --> 00:02:17,013 This is okay, Jeff. I mean, don't be embarrassed about it. 2 00:02:17,763 --> 00:02:20,016 Am I… Am I making you feel uncomfortable? 3 00:02:20,099 --> 00:02:22,768 No. It has to be faced, so… 4 00:02:24,103 --> 00:02:25,730 It's just so bizarre, isn't it? 5 00:02:26,856 --> 00:02:28,691 It's not… It's not easy to talk about. 6 00:02:28,774 --> 00:02:30,526 It's something that I've kept 7 00:02:30,610 --> 00:02:33,821 buried within myself for many years, 8 00:02:33,905 --> 00:02:35,156 and it's… 9 00:02:35,948 --> 00:02:36,866 Yeah. 10 00:02:37,658 --> 00:02:41,704 It's like trying to pull up a two-ton stone out of a well. 11 00:10:17,701 --> 00:10:20,287 Jeff, tell me what you were thinking. 12 00:10:21,038 --> 00:10:23,874 I had wondered why I was compelled 13 00:10:23,957 --> 00:10:26,335 to do all the murders. 14 00:10:27,252 --> 00:10:29,046 What I was searching for 15 00:10:29,129 --> 00:10:32,007 that would, uh, fill the emptiness that I felt. 16 00:10:32,883 --> 00:10:36,095 The murdering someone and… and disposing of them right away 17 00:10:36,178 --> 00:10:38,847 gives no great lasting pleasure 18 00:10:38,931 --> 00:10:41,642 or a feeling of fulfillment. 19 00:10:42,726 --> 00:10:45,437 And yet I still felt the compulsion 20 00:10:46,647 --> 00:10:48,982 to do it throughout these years. 21 00:11:12,256 --> 00:11:14,925 I didn't seem to have 22 00:11:15,008 --> 00:11:18,595 the normal feelings of empathy. 23 00:11:19,888 --> 00:11:21,849 Did you ever think to yourself, 24 00:11:21,932 --> 00:11:24,476 "Why don't I have feelings that normal people have?" 25 00:11:25,269 --> 00:11:26,937 I did wonder about it. 26 00:11:28,939 --> 00:11:31,275 It started with fantasies, fantasizing. 27 00:11:31,358 --> 00:11:34,403 It always started with fantasizing, and then 28 00:11:34,486 --> 00:11:38,449 eventually it seemed the fantasies, uh, came to be. 29 00:12:14,109 --> 00:12:16,737 What triggered it all? 30 00:12:16,820 --> 00:12:19,948 I wish I could give you a good, straightforward answer on that. 31 00:12:22,117 --> 00:12:26,121 If there's any area that is, uh, to really blame, 32 00:12:26,205 --> 00:12:30,751 it's my own twisted thinking. I haven't been thinking normally for years. 33 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,811 What was the problem growing up 34 00:13:30,894 --> 00:13:32,479 between your mom and dad? 35 00:13:32,563 --> 00:13:33,397 Ugh! 36 00:13:34,439 --> 00:13:37,693 They just couldn't seem to get along, 37 00:13:37,776 --> 00:13:39,528 especially on my mom's side. 38 00:13:39,611 --> 00:13:40,737 Any violence? 39 00:13:41,238 --> 00:13:43,282 Just the slapping and hitting. 40 00:13:43,824 --> 00:13:47,160 - Who was hitting who? - Um, Mom hitting Dad. 41 00:13:48,704 --> 00:13:50,289 Whose side were you on? 42 00:13:51,248 --> 00:13:54,626 I was trying not to be on anyone's side. 43 00:15:21,338 --> 00:15:24,049 How long had you known you're homosexual? 44 00:15:24,132 --> 00:15:26,969 Uh, since I was 13, I'd say. 45 00:15:50,742 --> 00:15:53,662 What did you do? Just kissing. 46 00:15:54,204 --> 00:15:55,706 Laying together, 47 00:15:55,789 --> 00:15:57,124 in the tree house. 48 00:15:57,874 --> 00:15:59,918 I was about 14 or 15. 49 00:16:00,836 --> 00:16:02,546 And that was consensual. 50 00:16:45,589 --> 00:16:48,008 When was the first time you thought 51 00:16:48,091 --> 00:16:49,551 about doing these things to a person? 52 00:16:50,052 --> 00:16:50,969 Uh… 53 00:16:51,678 --> 00:16:53,680 - I mean, just fantasy. - Yeah. 54 00:16:54,347 --> 00:16:57,142 Probably around when I was 18. 55 00:20:02,452 --> 00:20:04,913 When did your parents separate? 56 00:20:04,996 --> 00:20:06,331 When I was 18. 57 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,667 In 1978. 58 00:20:26,101 --> 00:20:29,562 Mom and Dad, they had their problems. 59 00:20:30,355 --> 00:20:33,358 There was nothing I could do to change the situation, 60 00:20:33,858 --> 00:20:35,402 so I just tried to 61 00:20:35,902 --> 00:20:39,364 find some happiness my own way, 62 00:20:40,031 --> 00:20:42,200 which was obviously the wrong way. 63 00:21:33,418 --> 00:21:35,795 The day she left to Chippewa Falls 64 00:21:35,879 --> 00:21:38,048 -you never talked to her again? Right. 65 00:21:38,131 --> 00:21:40,133 How did it make you feel at that time? 66 00:21:40,216 --> 00:21:41,760 Uh, depressed. 67 00:21:41,843 --> 00:21:43,303 Lonely and bored. 68 00:21:44,971 --> 00:21:46,598 Confused, I would say. 69 00:21:48,016 --> 00:21:49,893 No one was at home. 70 00:21:50,602 --> 00:21:52,479 I saw this guy hitchhiking. 71 00:21:52,562 --> 00:21:56,149 I thought it'd be nice to have someone around to talk with, 72 00:21:57,150 --> 00:22:01,321 and someone that I wanted to be with for sex. 73 00:22:36,231 --> 00:22:39,984 That's what attracted me. The physique. 74 00:22:40,068 --> 00:22:41,903 Just the muscular physique. 75 00:22:42,487 --> 00:22:44,739 That's… That's the motivation. 76 00:23:22,444 --> 00:23:24,821 You hadn't done anything with him, had you? 77 00:23:24,904 --> 00:23:25,822 No. 78 00:23:26,948 --> 00:23:29,701 I just got the sense he wasn't interested in that at all, 79 00:23:29,784 --> 00:23:31,786 after a while talking with him. 80 00:23:31,870 --> 00:23:34,038 So I don't believe I asked him, no. 81 00:23:34,831 --> 00:23:35,832 Okay. 82 00:23:50,513 --> 00:23:52,891 It was the first time, uh… 83 00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:56,352 I did have the desire to control. 84 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,063 I lost all feelings, 85 00:23:59,772 --> 00:24:02,650 so I guess I just decided 86 00:24:03,568 --> 00:24:06,529 to do it, whether he was, uh, gay or not. 87 00:24:06,613 --> 00:24:08,281 It didn't really matter. 88 00:24:30,303 --> 00:24:34,098 I dunno why I hit him, except I wanted to stay with him 89 00:24:34,182 --> 00:24:35,266 for longer. 90 00:24:44,609 --> 00:24:47,195 I thought how amazing it was 91 00:24:47,278 --> 00:24:50,782 that I was actually doing it 92 00:24:50,865 --> 00:24:52,408 to another human being. 93 00:24:52,492 --> 00:24:53,868 It shocked me 94 00:24:53,952 --> 00:24:56,037 that I got to that point. 95 00:24:57,330 --> 00:24:59,582 And that was a feeling of excitement, 96 00:24:59,666 --> 00:25:00,625 control, 97 00:25:01,209 --> 00:25:03,503 but mingled with a lot of fear. 98 00:25:04,629 --> 00:25:06,881 What did you do with his body? -Nothing. 99 00:25:06,965 --> 00:25:08,550 Just right under the… 100 00:25:09,342 --> 00:25:12,387 under the house in the crawl space area. 101 00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:14,931 Did you go down and look at him? - I did once. 102 00:25:15,014 --> 00:25:16,516 But just looked at him. 103 00:25:17,559 --> 00:25:20,645 What was going through your mind as you were looking at him? 104 00:25:21,563 --> 00:25:22,522 Uh… 105 00:25:23,565 --> 00:25:26,776 A sort of morbid curiosity as to… 106 00:25:28,653 --> 00:25:30,822 what a dead person looked like. 107 00:25:33,032 --> 00:25:33,950 Uh… 108 00:25:34,784 --> 00:25:37,912 Curiosity mixed with a lot of fear. 109 00:25:57,473 --> 00:26:00,143 I started dismembering him and everything. 110 00:26:00,226 --> 00:26:02,770 There's something about him that I remember. 111 00:26:02,854 --> 00:26:06,107 Cutting the legs off and then the arms and head. 112 00:26:07,817 --> 00:26:09,319 Did you touch anything? 113 00:26:09,402 --> 00:26:11,321 I… I probably did. 114 00:26:11,404 --> 00:26:12,864 Liver and the heart. 115 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,667 Did it concern you at all as to why you felt 116 00:26:24,751 --> 00:26:26,502 such satisfaction at that time, 117 00:26:26,586 --> 00:26:30,089 when you were 18 years old, by using him to masturbate? 118 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,593 I'm not sure I even know why now. 119 00:26:33,676 --> 00:26:37,013 I got, uh, an exciting feeling out of doing that. 120 00:26:38,806 --> 00:26:39,932 But I did it. 121 00:26:40,850 --> 00:26:43,144 How long did you keep him in the house with you? 122 00:26:43,227 --> 00:26:44,103 Um… 123 00:26:44,604 --> 00:26:46,773 I don't know. Six hours. 124 00:29:26,182 --> 00:29:28,267 Dad was living at the hotel, 125 00:29:28,351 --> 00:29:31,646 so I was pretty much by myself for a couple months. 126 00:29:32,438 --> 00:29:34,649 During the time your father was at the hotel, 127 00:29:34,732 --> 00:29:36,651 how many times a day would you speak with him? 128 00:29:37,693 --> 00:29:39,570 Maybe once or twice a week. 129 00:30:02,802 --> 00:30:05,805 After that, you said you went to Ohio State? 130 00:30:05,888 --> 00:30:07,557 For about three months. 131 00:30:09,642 --> 00:30:13,604 Did a lot of drinking there, so grades weren't very good. 132 00:30:29,829 --> 00:30:32,415 They sent me to basic training. 133 00:30:33,332 --> 00:30:35,001 Then field medic training. 134 00:30:51,851 --> 00:30:53,978 I was drinking heavily near the end, 135 00:30:54,061 --> 00:30:58,482 so I had to move back to Ohio with the folks. 136 00:31:51,911 --> 00:31:54,622 I was troubled about that. 137 00:31:57,124 --> 00:32:00,211 How did it manifest itself that you were troubled by it? 138 00:32:00,294 --> 00:32:01,963 What were you feeling? 139 00:32:02,046 --> 00:32:03,339 A lot of guilt. 140 00:32:04,465 --> 00:32:06,592 Indecision over whether I should 141 00:32:07,802 --> 00:32:08,886 confess to it. 142 00:32:13,057 --> 00:32:15,476 But I just never had the courage to. 143 00:32:15,559 --> 00:32:17,144 What were you thinking? 144 00:32:17,853 --> 00:32:21,065 Well, I knew how horribly wrong it was. 145 00:32:22,525 --> 00:32:26,612 And I never wanted to have anything like that ever happen again. 146 00:34:15,387 --> 00:34:17,890 It's difficult dredging up these feelings 147 00:34:17,973 --> 00:34:19,558 and motivations, you know. 148 00:34:19,642 --> 00:34:22,978 I know it's real hard. If it gets too difficult, tell me. 149 00:34:23,521 --> 00:34:25,231 -You realize why… - Yes, it… it… 150 00:34:25,815 --> 00:34:28,109 Talking about it and analyzing it 151 00:34:29,151 --> 00:34:30,903 shows me just how, 152 00:34:30,986 --> 00:34:33,656 uh, warped my thinking was. 153 00:34:59,473 --> 00:35:01,976 You ever try to develop a relationship? 154 00:35:02,059 --> 00:35:05,104 Uh, no. I can't say that I did. 155 00:35:05,187 --> 00:35:06,605 Why not? 156 00:35:06,689 --> 00:35:09,942 Well, it was because of the home situation. 157 00:35:10,025 --> 00:35:11,944 I couldn't carry on 158 00:35:12,027 --> 00:35:15,156 a long-term relationship where I was staying. 159 00:35:58,824 --> 00:36:00,826 I had moved out then, 160 00:36:00,910 --> 00:36:03,204 to here up in Wisconsin 161 00:36:03,287 --> 00:36:04,914 to help my grandma out. 162 00:36:50,334 --> 00:36:53,045 Uh, I helped her with the yard work 163 00:36:53,128 --> 00:36:54,255 and various chores. 164 00:37:21,573 --> 00:37:24,368 I really made a sincere effort 165 00:37:24,868 --> 00:37:27,788 to change the way I was living, 166 00:37:27,871 --> 00:37:29,331 to change my desires. 167 00:37:29,915 --> 00:37:33,002 To get rid of the, uh… 168 00:37:33,085 --> 00:37:36,588 homosexual, uh, feelings that I had. 169 00:37:37,131 --> 00:37:39,800 Any sinful thoughts. 170 00:37:41,176 --> 00:37:43,554 Started going to church with Grandma 171 00:37:43,637 --> 00:37:45,264 on a regular basis. 172 00:37:46,432 --> 00:37:48,600 And, uh, tried to stifle 173 00:37:48,684 --> 00:37:51,770 any sexual feelings that I had. 174 00:38:04,450 --> 00:38:07,619 My grandma was going to church every Sunday. 175 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,788 What denomination is she? 176 00:38:09,872 --> 00:38:11,040 Protestant. 177 00:38:29,683 --> 00:38:32,811 I was walking around Southridge 178 00:38:33,604 --> 00:38:35,606 and, uh, saw this mannequin 179 00:38:35,689 --> 00:38:38,067 that sort of caught my eye. 180 00:38:38,150 --> 00:38:40,861 I wanted that mannequin, so I… 181 00:38:42,446 --> 00:38:43,947 went in the store. 182 00:38:44,031 --> 00:38:45,449 There's nobody in there. 183 00:38:45,532 --> 00:38:47,993 Stayed there until closing time. 184 00:38:48,077 --> 00:38:50,371 - And no alarms went off? - No, nothing. 185 00:38:50,454 --> 00:38:52,247 I got the mannequin undressed, 186 00:38:52,331 --> 00:38:53,582 got a taxi back home, 187 00:38:53,665 --> 00:38:56,251 and stored it in the garage 188 00:38:56,335 --> 00:38:58,295 at, uh, Grandma's house. 189 00:38:58,921 --> 00:39:01,382 And I used to play around with it after… 190 00:39:02,966 --> 00:39:05,052 dressing it up and undressing it. 191 00:39:06,970 --> 00:39:08,597 Pretending it was real. 192 00:39:25,364 --> 00:39:28,867 After a week or two, Grandma would stumble across it. 193 00:39:28,951 --> 00:39:32,413 She was hanging up some clothes that she'd washed for me. 194 00:39:32,496 --> 00:39:34,998 - She did? - Yeah. She asked me what was it. 195 00:39:35,082 --> 00:39:36,375 Where did I get it. 196 00:39:36,458 --> 00:39:40,045 And I gave her some story that I picked it up at… 197 00:39:40,129 --> 00:39:42,714 They had extra mannequins that they were selling. 198 00:39:42,798 --> 00:39:46,427 I think she called Dad, so I figured I better get rid of it. 199 00:39:46,510 --> 00:39:49,096 Took it down to the basement and, uh, 200 00:39:49,179 --> 00:39:52,474 smashed it up, and threw it out in the garbage. 201 00:41:03,587 --> 00:41:06,423 I was in the West Allis library… 202 00:41:07,674 --> 00:41:10,135 …just sitting in a chair, reading a book. 203 00:41:11,178 --> 00:41:13,680 It was the last thing I expected, you know? 204 00:41:14,515 --> 00:41:18,227 I just laughed it off to myself. I thought, uh, 205 00:41:18,310 --> 00:41:21,730 "That's an awful feeble, 206 00:41:21,813 --> 00:41:24,858 uh, attempt to get me to stumble," 207 00:41:25,484 --> 00:41:26,485 you know? 208 00:41:27,027 --> 00:41:29,238 I never saw his face or anything. 209 00:41:31,365 --> 00:41:34,409 You'd put the compulsion to rest when you went to church with Grandma, 210 00:41:34,493 --> 00:41:36,828 and it came back stronger, didn't it? 211 00:41:37,871 --> 00:41:40,040 That's what triggered it, I guess. 212 00:42:22,499 --> 00:42:25,502 I at least had a job that paid halfway decent. 213 00:42:26,003 --> 00:42:28,088 I could look forward to free time. 214 00:42:28,171 --> 00:42:29,381 Privacy. 215 00:42:31,216 --> 00:42:32,968 Started drinking again, 216 00:42:33,927 --> 00:42:35,470 going to the bookstores. 217 00:42:36,430 --> 00:42:37,514 Uh… 218 00:42:38,140 --> 00:42:41,935 Found out where the gay bars were and started going to them. 219 00:42:42,728 --> 00:42:45,814 What I was looking for was some live companionship. 220 00:42:46,315 --> 00:42:48,191 Someone to spend the night with. 221 00:42:48,275 --> 00:42:51,987 A man I had complete control over, 222 00:42:52,571 --> 00:42:55,073 and to be able to do with as I pleased. 223 00:42:55,657 --> 00:42:57,409 Something real, 224 00:42:57,492 --> 00:43:00,495 uh, instead of fake like the mannequin. 225 00:43:00,579 --> 00:43:02,164 So that was my fantasy. 226 00:43:04,124 --> 00:43:07,252 Little by little, I started falling away… 227 00:43:12,174 --> 00:43:15,135 I just, uh, gave up trying to resist. 228 00:46:54,563 --> 00:46:56,731 What sleeping pills did you use? 229 00:46:56,815 --> 00:46:58,108 Uh, Halcion. 230 00:46:58,191 --> 00:47:00,318 Why did you get that prescription? 231 00:47:01,987 --> 00:47:03,697 For trouble sleeping. 232 00:47:03,780 --> 00:47:05,115 I worked third shift. 233 00:47:06,283 --> 00:47:08,410 That gave you a feeling of control? 234 00:47:08,493 --> 00:47:09,452 Uh… 235 00:47:10,453 --> 00:47:12,706 Well, I could keep them there longer. 236 00:47:13,248 --> 00:47:15,917 I could, uh, just lay around with them 237 00:47:16,001 --> 00:47:19,838 without feeling pressure to do anything that they wanted to do. 238 00:47:20,338 --> 00:47:21,631 Uh… 239 00:47:22,799 --> 00:47:24,551 There just wouldn't be any… 240 00:47:24,634 --> 00:47:27,053 They wouldn't make any demands on me. 241 00:47:27,137 --> 00:47:30,682 Uh, I could just enjoy them the way I wanted to. 242 00:47:32,142 --> 00:47:35,312 Did you think about at all how they might have felt? 243 00:47:35,395 --> 00:47:38,815 Yeah, I think I did, but at that point I didn't much care. 244 00:47:38,899 --> 00:47:41,484 I just wanted to do what I wanted. 245 00:47:41,568 --> 00:47:43,486 So I didn't care. 246 00:48:51,638 --> 00:48:53,848 Did any of that satisfy you? 247 00:48:53,932 --> 00:48:56,559 As far as really getting any true satisfaction? 248 00:48:56,643 --> 00:48:57,519 It didn't. 249 00:48:58,395 --> 00:49:01,189 I didn't have control over them. I… 250 00:49:02,774 --> 00:49:05,777 I wanted all of them, you know. 251 00:49:05,860 --> 00:49:08,363 And, uh, couldn't get it that way. 252 00:50:08,423 --> 00:50:10,300 You totally blacked out? 253 00:50:10,383 --> 00:50:11,217 Yeah. 254 00:50:11,301 --> 00:50:12,844 Had no idea you'd done anything? 255 00:50:12,927 --> 00:50:15,305 No. Not until I woke up in the morning. 256 00:50:15,388 --> 00:50:16,848 I couldn't believe it. 257 00:50:23,188 --> 00:50:25,857 Shocked. Uh… 258 00:50:26,483 --> 00:50:27,525 Panicked. 259 00:50:28,401 --> 00:50:29,694 And, uh… 260 00:50:30,862 --> 00:50:32,322 very sorry that it happened 261 00:50:32,405 --> 00:50:35,992 because I had no intention of anything like that happening. 262 00:50:36,076 --> 00:50:38,119 How'd you know he was dead? You check his pulse? 263 00:50:38,203 --> 00:50:39,496 I was afraid. No. 264 00:50:40,330 --> 00:50:42,874 And there was blood coming out of the mouth. 265 00:50:43,458 --> 00:50:47,921 Apparently, I had beaten him with my fists on the chest. 266 00:53:23,243 --> 00:53:26,788 How did you feel after that time at the Ambassador? 267 00:53:27,580 --> 00:53:28,623 Horrified… 268 00:53:32,168 --> 00:53:36,381 And I never wanted to have anything like that ever happen again. 269 00:53:37,048 --> 00:53:41,052 How did you feel that it came forth even though you were unconscious? 270 00:53:42,053 --> 00:53:44,264 Uh, confused. 271 00:53:45,431 --> 00:53:47,809 Did you feel you'd started to lose control? 272 00:53:47,892 --> 00:53:49,477 Yeah, I knew I had. Yeah. 273 00:54:06,661 --> 00:54:09,163 The Ambassador did something.. 274 00:54:09,247 --> 00:54:10,790 It triggered something 275 00:54:12,583 --> 00:54:14,335 I wanted more. 276 00:54:14,419 --> 00:54:17,547 I don't know what it triggered, but it triggered something. 277 00:54:27,390 --> 00:54:30,393 It just gave me a sick pleasure. 278 00:54:30,476 --> 00:54:33,646 It dominated my thoughts, doing these things. 279 00:55:06,054 --> 00:55:09,265 The compulsion was stronger than any… anything else. 280 00:55:12,185 --> 00:55:15,480 It was a single-minded, driving force. 281 00:55:17,023 --> 00:55:17,982 My… 282 00:55:18,566 --> 00:55:20,526 desires, uh, were 283 00:55:21,569 --> 00:55:23,196 bestial, obviously.