1
00:02:13,467 --> 00:02:17,013
This is okay, Jeff.
I mean, don't be embarrassed about it.
2
00:02:17,763 --> 00:02:20,016
Am I… Am I making you feel uncomfortable?
3
00:02:20,099 --> 00:02:22,768
No. It has to be faced, so…
4
00:02:24,103 --> 00:02:25,730
It's just so bizarre, isn't it?
5
00:02:26,856 --> 00:02:28,691
It's not… It's not easy to talk about.
6
00:02:28,774 --> 00:02:30,526
It's something that I've kept
7
00:02:30,610 --> 00:02:33,821
buried within myself for many years,
8
00:02:33,905 --> 00:02:35,156
and it's…
9
00:02:35,948 --> 00:02:36,866
Yeah.
10
00:02:37,658 --> 00:02:41,704
It's like trying to pull up
a two-ton stone out of a well.
11
00:10:17,701 --> 00:10:20,287
Jeff, tell me what you were thinking.
12
00:10:21,038 --> 00:10:23,874
I had wondered
why I was compelled
13
00:10:23,957 --> 00:10:26,335
to do all the murders.
14
00:10:27,252 --> 00:10:29,046
What I was searching for
15
00:10:29,129 --> 00:10:32,007
that would, uh,
fill the emptiness that I felt.
16
00:10:32,883 --> 00:10:36,095
The murdering someone
and… and disposing of them right away
17
00:10:36,178 --> 00:10:38,847
gives no great lasting pleasure
18
00:10:38,931 --> 00:10:41,642
or a feeling of fulfillment.
19
00:10:42,726 --> 00:10:45,437
And yet I still felt the compulsion
20
00:10:46,647 --> 00:10:48,982
to do it throughout these years.
21
00:11:12,256 --> 00:11:14,925
I didn't seem to have
22
00:11:15,008 --> 00:11:18,595
the normal feelings of empathy.
23
00:11:19,888 --> 00:11:21,849
Did you ever think to yourself,
24
00:11:21,932 --> 00:11:24,476
"Why don't I have feelings
that normal people have?"
25
00:11:25,269 --> 00:11:26,937
I did wonder about it.
26
00:11:28,939 --> 00:11:31,275
It started with fantasies, fantasizing.
27
00:11:31,358 --> 00:11:34,403
It always started with fantasizing,
and then
28
00:11:34,486 --> 00:11:38,449
eventually it seemed
the fantasies, uh, came to be.
29
00:12:14,109 --> 00:12:16,737
What triggered it all?
30
00:12:16,820 --> 00:12:19,948
I wish I could give you
a good, straightforward answer on that.
31
00:12:22,117 --> 00:12:26,121
If there's any area
that is, uh, to really blame,
32
00:12:26,205 --> 00:12:30,751
it's my own twisted thinking. I haven't
been thinking normally for years.
33
00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,811
What was the problem growing up
34
00:13:30,894 --> 00:13:32,479
between your mom and dad?
35
00:13:32,563 --> 00:13:33,397
Ugh!
36
00:13:34,439 --> 00:13:37,693
They just couldn't seem to get along,
37
00:13:37,776 --> 00:13:39,528
especially on my mom's side.
38
00:13:39,611 --> 00:13:40,737
Any violence?
39
00:13:41,238 --> 00:13:43,282
Just the slapping and hitting.
40
00:13:43,824 --> 00:13:47,160
- Who was hitting who?
- Um, Mom hitting Dad.
41
00:13:48,704 --> 00:13:50,289
Whose side were you on?
42
00:13:51,248 --> 00:13:54,626
I was trying
not to be on anyone's side.
43
00:15:21,338 --> 00:15:24,049
How long
had you known you're homosexual?
44
00:15:24,132 --> 00:15:26,969
Uh, since I was 13, I'd say.
45
00:15:50,742 --> 00:15:53,662
What did you do?
Just kissing.
46
00:15:54,204 --> 00:15:55,706
Laying together,
47
00:15:55,789 --> 00:15:57,124
in the tree house.
48
00:15:57,874 --> 00:15:59,918
I was about 14 or 15.
49
00:16:00,836 --> 00:16:02,546
And that was consensual.
50
00:16:45,589 --> 00:16:48,008
When was the first time you thought
51
00:16:48,091 --> 00:16:49,551
about doing these things to a person?
52
00:16:50,052 --> 00:16:50,969
Uh…
53
00:16:51,678 --> 00:16:53,680
- I mean, just fantasy.
- Yeah.
54
00:16:54,347 --> 00:16:57,142
Probably around when I was 18.
55
00:20:02,452 --> 00:20:04,913
When did your parents separate?
56
00:20:04,996 --> 00:20:06,331
When I was 18.
57
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,667
In 1978.
58
00:20:26,101 --> 00:20:29,562
Mom and Dad, they had their problems.
59
00:20:30,355 --> 00:20:33,358
There was nothing I could do
to change the situation,
60
00:20:33,858 --> 00:20:35,402
so I just tried to
61
00:20:35,902 --> 00:20:39,364
find some happiness my own way,
62
00:20:40,031 --> 00:20:42,200
which was obviously the wrong way.
63
00:21:33,418 --> 00:21:35,795
The day she left to Chippewa Falls
64
00:21:35,879 --> 00:21:38,048
-you never talked to her again?
Right.
65
00:21:38,131 --> 00:21:40,133
How did it make you feel
at that time?
66
00:21:40,216 --> 00:21:41,760
Uh, depressed.
67
00:21:41,843 --> 00:21:43,303
Lonely and bored.
68
00:21:44,971 --> 00:21:46,598
Confused, I would say.
69
00:21:48,016 --> 00:21:49,893
No one was at home.
70
00:21:50,602 --> 00:21:52,479
I saw this guy hitchhiking.
71
00:21:52,562 --> 00:21:56,149
I thought it'd be nice
to have someone around to talk with,
72
00:21:57,150 --> 00:22:01,321
and someone that I wanted
to be with for sex.
73
00:22:36,231 --> 00:22:39,984
That's what attracted me. The physique.
74
00:22:40,068 --> 00:22:41,903
Just the muscular physique.
75
00:22:42,487 --> 00:22:44,739
That's… That's the motivation.
76
00:23:22,444 --> 00:23:24,821
You hadn't done
anything with him, had you?
77
00:23:24,904 --> 00:23:25,822
No.
78
00:23:26,948 --> 00:23:29,701
I just got the sense
he wasn't interested in that at all,
79
00:23:29,784 --> 00:23:31,786
after a while talking with him.
80
00:23:31,870 --> 00:23:34,038
So I don't believe I asked him, no.
81
00:23:34,831 --> 00:23:35,832
Okay.
82
00:23:50,513 --> 00:23:52,891
It was the first time, uh…
83
00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:56,352
I did have the desire to control.
84
00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,063
I lost all feelings,
85
00:23:59,772 --> 00:24:02,650
so I guess I just decided
86
00:24:03,568 --> 00:24:06,529
to do it, whether he was, uh, gay or not.
87
00:24:06,613 --> 00:24:08,281
It didn't really matter.
88
00:24:30,303 --> 00:24:34,098
I dunno why I hit
him, except I wanted to stay with him
89
00:24:34,182 --> 00:24:35,266
for longer.
90
00:24:44,609 --> 00:24:47,195
I thought how amazing it was
91
00:24:47,278 --> 00:24:50,782
that I was actually doing it
92
00:24:50,865 --> 00:24:52,408
to another human being.
93
00:24:52,492 --> 00:24:53,868
It shocked me
94
00:24:53,952 --> 00:24:56,037
that I got to that point.
95
00:24:57,330 --> 00:24:59,582
And that was a feeling of excitement,
96
00:24:59,666 --> 00:25:00,625
control,
97
00:25:01,209 --> 00:25:03,503
but mingled with a lot of fear.
98
00:25:04,629 --> 00:25:06,881
What did you do with his body?
-Nothing.
99
00:25:06,965 --> 00:25:08,550
Just right under the…
100
00:25:09,342 --> 00:25:12,387
under the house in the crawl space area.
101
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:14,931
Did you go down and look at him?
- I did once.
102
00:25:15,014 --> 00:25:16,516
But just looked at him.
103
00:25:17,559 --> 00:25:20,645
What was going through your mind
as you were looking at him?
104
00:25:21,563 --> 00:25:22,522
Uh…
105
00:25:23,565 --> 00:25:26,776
A sort of morbid curiosity as to…
106
00:25:28,653 --> 00:25:30,822
what a dead person looked like.
107
00:25:33,032 --> 00:25:33,950
Uh…
108
00:25:34,784 --> 00:25:37,912
Curiosity mixed with a lot of fear.
109
00:25:57,473 --> 00:26:00,143
I started
dismembering him and everything.
110
00:26:00,226 --> 00:26:02,770
There's something about him
that I remember.
111
00:26:02,854 --> 00:26:06,107
Cutting the legs off
and then the arms and head.
112
00:26:07,817 --> 00:26:09,319
Did you touch anything?
113
00:26:09,402 --> 00:26:11,321
I… I probably did.
114
00:26:11,404 --> 00:26:12,864
Liver and the heart.
115
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,667
Did it concern you
at all as to why you felt
116
00:26:24,751 --> 00:26:26,502
such satisfaction at that time,
117
00:26:26,586 --> 00:26:30,089
when you were 18 years old,
by using him to masturbate?
118
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,593
I'm not sure
I even know why now.
119
00:26:33,676 --> 00:26:37,013
I got, uh, an exciting feeling
out of doing that.
120
00:26:38,806 --> 00:26:39,932
But I did it.
121
00:26:40,850 --> 00:26:43,144
How long did you
keep him in the house with you?
122
00:26:43,227 --> 00:26:44,103
Um…
123
00:26:44,604 --> 00:26:46,773
I don't know. Six hours.
124
00:29:26,182 --> 00:29:28,267
Dad was living at the hotel,
125
00:29:28,351 --> 00:29:31,646
so I was pretty much by myself
for a couple months.
126
00:29:32,438 --> 00:29:34,649
During the time
your father was at the hotel,
127
00:29:34,732 --> 00:29:36,651
how many times a day
would you speak with him?
128
00:29:37,693 --> 00:29:39,570
Maybe once or twice a week.
129
00:30:02,802 --> 00:30:05,805
After that,
you said you went to Ohio State?
130
00:30:05,888 --> 00:30:07,557
For about three months.
131
00:30:09,642 --> 00:30:13,604
Did a lot of drinking there,
so grades weren't very good.
132
00:30:29,829 --> 00:30:32,415
They sent me to basic training.
133
00:30:33,332 --> 00:30:35,001
Then field medic training.
134
00:30:51,851 --> 00:30:53,978
I was
drinking heavily near the end,
135
00:30:54,061 --> 00:30:58,482
so I had to move back to Ohio
with the folks.
136
00:31:51,911 --> 00:31:54,622
I was troubled about that.
137
00:31:57,124 --> 00:32:00,211
How did it manifest itself
that you were troubled by it?
138
00:32:00,294 --> 00:32:01,963
What were you feeling?
139
00:32:02,046 --> 00:32:03,339
A lot of guilt.
140
00:32:04,465 --> 00:32:06,592
Indecision over whether I should
141
00:32:07,802 --> 00:32:08,886
confess to it.
142
00:32:13,057 --> 00:32:15,476
But I just never had the courage to.
143
00:32:15,559 --> 00:32:17,144
What were you thinking?
144
00:32:17,853 --> 00:32:21,065
Well,
I knew how horribly wrong it was.
145
00:32:22,525 --> 00:32:26,612
And I never wanted to have
anything like that ever happen again.
146
00:34:15,387 --> 00:34:17,890
It's difficult dredging up these feelings
147
00:34:17,973 --> 00:34:19,558
and motivations, you know.
148
00:34:19,642 --> 00:34:22,978
I know it's real hard.
If it gets too difficult, tell me.
149
00:34:23,521 --> 00:34:25,231
-You realize why…
- Yes, it… it…
150
00:34:25,815 --> 00:34:28,109
Talking about it and analyzing it
151
00:34:29,151 --> 00:34:30,903
shows me just how,
152
00:34:30,986 --> 00:34:33,656
uh, warped my thinking was.
153
00:34:59,473 --> 00:35:01,976
You ever try to develop a relationship?
154
00:35:02,059 --> 00:35:05,104
Uh, no. I can't say that I did.
155
00:35:05,187 --> 00:35:06,605
Why not?
156
00:35:06,689 --> 00:35:09,942
Well, it was because
of the home situation.
157
00:35:10,025 --> 00:35:11,944
I couldn't carry on
158
00:35:12,027 --> 00:35:15,156
a long-term relationship
where I was staying.
159
00:35:58,824 --> 00:36:00,826
I had moved out then,
160
00:36:00,910 --> 00:36:03,204
to here up in Wisconsin
161
00:36:03,287 --> 00:36:04,914
to help my grandma out.
162
00:36:50,334 --> 00:36:53,045
Uh,
I helped her with the yard work
163
00:36:53,128 --> 00:36:54,255
and various chores.
164
00:37:21,573 --> 00:37:24,368
I really made a sincere effort
165
00:37:24,868 --> 00:37:27,788
to change the way I was living,
166
00:37:27,871 --> 00:37:29,331
to change my desires.
167
00:37:29,915 --> 00:37:33,002
To get rid of the, uh…
168
00:37:33,085 --> 00:37:36,588
homosexual, uh, feelings that I had.
169
00:37:37,131 --> 00:37:39,800
Any sinful thoughts.
170
00:37:41,176 --> 00:37:43,554
Started going to church with Grandma
171
00:37:43,637 --> 00:37:45,264
on a regular basis.
172
00:37:46,432 --> 00:37:48,600
And, uh, tried to stifle
173
00:37:48,684 --> 00:37:51,770
any sexual feelings that I had.
174
00:38:04,450 --> 00:38:07,619
My grandma
was going to church every Sunday.
175
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,788
What denomination is she?
176
00:38:09,872 --> 00:38:11,040
Protestant.
177
00:38:29,683 --> 00:38:32,811
I was walking around Southridge
178
00:38:33,604 --> 00:38:35,606
and, uh, saw this mannequin
179
00:38:35,689 --> 00:38:38,067
that sort of caught my eye.
180
00:38:38,150 --> 00:38:40,861
I wanted that mannequin, so I…
181
00:38:42,446 --> 00:38:43,947
went in the store.
182
00:38:44,031 --> 00:38:45,449
There's nobody in there.
183
00:38:45,532 --> 00:38:47,993
Stayed there until closing time.
184
00:38:48,077 --> 00:38:50,371
- And no alarms went off?
- No, nothing.
185
00:38:50,454 --> 00:38:52,247
I got the mannequin undressed,
186
00:38:52,331 --> 00:38:53,582
got a taxi back home,
187
00:38:53,665 --> 00:38:56,251
and stored it in the garage
188
00:38:56,335 --> 00:38:58,295
at, uh, Grandma's house.
189
00:38:58,921 --> 00:39:01,382
And I used to play around with it after…
190
00:39:02,966 --> 00:39:05,052
dressing it up and undressing it.
191
00:39:06,970 --> 00:39:08,597
Pretending it was real.
192
00:39:25,364 --> 00:39:28,867
After a week
or two, Grandma would stumble across it.
193
00:39:28,951 --> 00:39:32,413
She was hanging up some clothes
that she'd washed for me.
194
00:39:32,496 --> 00:39:34,998
- She did?
- Yeah. She asked me what was it.
195
00:39:35,082 --> 00:39:36,375
Where did I get it.
196
00:39:36,458 --> 00:39:40,045
And I gave her some story
that I picked it up at…
197
00:39:40,129 --> 00:39:42,714
They had extra mannequins
that they were selling.
198
00:39:42,798 --> 00:39:46,427
I think she called Dad,
so I figured I better get rid of it.
199
00:39:46,510 --> 00:39:49,096
Took it down to the basement and, uh,
200
00:39:49,179 --> 00:39:52,474
smashed it up,
and threw it out in the garbage.
201
00:41:03,587 --> 00:41:06,423
I was in the West Allis library…
202
00:41:07,674 --> 00:41:10,135
…just sitting in a chair, reading a book.
203
00:41:11,178 --> 00:41:13,680
It was the last thing I expected,
you know?
204
00:41:14,515 --> 00:41:18,227
I just laughed it off to myself.
I thought, uh,
205
00:41:18,310 --> 00:41:21,730
"That's an awful feeble,
206
00:41:21,813 --> 00:41:24,858
uh, attempt to get me to stumble,"
207
00:41:25,484 --> 00:41:26,485
you know?
208
00:41:27,027 --> 00:41:29,238
I never saw his face or anything.
209
00:41:31,365 --> 00:41:34,409
You'd put the compulsion to rest
when you went to church with Grandma,
210
00:41:34,493 --> 00:41:36,828
and it came back stronger, didn't it?
211
00:41:37,871 --> 00:41:40,040
That's what triggered it,
I guess.
212
00:42:22,499 --> 00:42:25,502
I at least
had a job that paid halfway decent.
213
00:42:26,003 --> 00:42:28,088
I could look forward to free time.
214
00:42:28,171 --> 00:42:29,381
Privacy.
215
00:42:31,216 --> 00:42:32,968
Started drinking again,
216
00:42:33,927 --> 00:42:35,470
going to the bookstores.
217
00:42:36,430 --> 00:42:37,514
Uh…
218
00:42:38,140 --> 00:42:41,935
Found out where the gay bars were
and started going to them.
219
00:42:42,728 --> 00:42:45,814
What I was looking for
was some live companionship.
220
00:42:46,315 --> 00:42:48,191
Someone to spend the night with.
221
00:42:48,275 --> 00:42:51,987
A man I had complete control over,
222
00:42:52,571 --> 00:42:55,073
and to be able to do with as I pleased.
223
00:42:55,657 --> 00:42:57,409
Something real,
224
00:42:57,492 --> 00:43:00,495
uh, instead of fake like the mannequin.
225
00:43:00,579 --> 00:43:02,164
So that was my fantasy.
226
00:43:04,124 --> 00:43:07,252
Little by little, I started falling away…
227
00:43:12,174 --> 00:43:15,135
I just, uh, gave up trying to resist.
228
00:46:54,563 --> 00:46:56,731
What sleeping pills did you use?
229
00:46:56,815 --> 00:46:58,108
Uh, Halcion.
230
00:46:58,191 --> 00:47:00,318
Why did you get that prescription?
231
00:47:01,987 --> 00:47:03,697
For trouble sleeping.
232
00:47:03,780 --> 00:47:05,115
I worked third shift.
233
00:47:06,283 --> 00:47:08,410
That gave you
a feeling of control?
234
00:47:08,493 --> 00:47:09,452
Uh…
235
00:47:10,453 --> 00:47:12,706
Well, I could keep them there longer.
236
00:47:13,248 --> 00:47:15,917
I could, uh, just lay around with them
237
00:47:16,001 --> 00:47:19,838
without feeling pressure
to do anything that they wanted to do.
238
00:47:20,338 --> 00:47:21,631
Uh…
239
00:47:22,799 --> 00:47:24,551
There just wouldn't be any…
240
00:47:24,634 --> 00:47:27,053
They wouldn't make any demands on me.
241
00:47:27,137 --> 00:47:30,682
Uh, I could just enjoy them
the way I wanted to.
242
00:47:32,142 --> 00:47:35,312
Did you think about at all
how they might have felt?
243
00:47:35,395 --> 00:47:38,815
Yeah, I think I did,
but at that point I didn't much care.
244
00:47:38,899 --> 00:47:41,484
I just wanted to do what I wanted.
245
00:47:41,568 --> 00:47:43,486
So I didn't care.
246
00:48:51,638 --> 00:48:53,848
Did any of that satisfy you?
247
00:48:53,932 --> 00:48:56,559
As far as really getting
any true satisfaction?
248
00:48:56,643 --> 00:48:57,519
It didn't.
249
00:48:58,395 --> 00:49:01,189
I didn't have control over them. I…
250
00:49:02,774 --> 00:49:05,777
I wanted all of them, you know.
251
00:49:05,860 --> 00:49:08,363
And, uh, couldn't get it that way.
252
00:50:08,423 --> 00:50:10,300
You totally blacked out?
253
00:50:10,383 --> 00:50:11,217
Yeah.
254
00:50:11,301 --> 00:50:12,844
Had no idea you'd done anything?
255
00:50:12,927 --> 00:50:15,305
No.
Not until I woke up in the morning.
256
00:50:15,388 --> 00:50:16,848
I couldn't believe it.
257
00:50:23,188 --> 00:50:25,857
Shocked. Uh…
258
00:50:26,483 --> 00:50:27,525
Panicked.
259
00:50:28,401 --> 00:50:29,694
And, uh…
260
00:50:30,862 --> 00:50:32,322
very sorry that it happened
261
00:50:32,405 --> 00:50:35,992
because I had no intention
of anything like that happening.
262
00:50:36,076 --> 00:50:38,119
How'd you know he was dead?
You check his pulse?
263
00:50:38,203 --> 00:50:39,496
I was afraid. No.
264
00:50:40,330 --> 00:50:42,874
And there was blood
coming out of the mouth.
265
00:50:43,458 --> 00:50:47,921
Apparently, I had beaten him
with my fists on the chest.
266
00:53:23,243 --> 00:53:26,788
How did you
feel after that time at the Ambassador?
267
00:53:27,580 --> 00:53:28,623
Horrified…
268
00:53:32,168 --> 00:53:36,381
And I never wanted to have
anything like that ever happen again.
269
00:53:37,048 --> 00:53:41,052
How did you feel that it came
forth even though you were unconscious?
270
00:53:42,053 --> 00:53:44,264
Uh, confused.
271
00:53:45,431 --> 00:53:47,809
Did you feel
you'd started to lose control?
272
00:53:47,892 --> 00:53:49,477
Yeah, I knew I had. Yeah.
273
00:54:06,661 --> 00:54:09,163
The Ambassador did something..
274
00:54:09,247 --> 00:54:10,790
It triggered something
275
00:54:12,583 --> 00:54:14,335
I wanted more.
276
00:54:14,419 --> 00:54:17,547
I don't know what it triggered,
but it triggered something.
277
00:54:27,390 --> 00:54:30,393
It just gave me a sick pleasure.
278
00:54:30,476 --> 00:54:33,646
It dominated my thoughts,
doing these things.
279
00:55:06,054 --> 00:55:09,265
The compulsion
was stronger than any… anything else.
280
00:55:12,185 --> 00:55:15,480
It was a single-minded, driving force.
281
00:55:17,023 --> 00:55:17,982
My…
282
00:55:18,566 --> 00:55:20,526
desires, uh, were
283
00:55:21,569 --> 00:55:23,196
bestial, obviously.