This is okay, Jeff. I mean, don't be embarrassed about it.
Am I… Am I making you feel uncomfortable?
No. It has to be faced, so…
It's just so bizarre, isn't it?
It's not… It's not easy to talk about.
It's something that I've kept
buried within myself for many years,
and it's…
Yeah.
It's like trying to pull up a two-ton stone out of a well.
Jeff, tell me what you were thinking.
I had wondered why I was compelled
to do all the murders.
What I was searching for
that would, uh, fill the emptiness that I felt.
The murdering someone and… and disposing of them right away
gives no great lasting pleasure
or a feeling of fulfillment.
And yet I still felt the compulsion
to do it throughout these years.
I didn't seem to have
the normal feelings of empathy.
Did you ever think to yourself,
"Why don't I have feelings that normal people have?"
I did wonder about it.
It started with fantasies, fantasizing.
It always started with fantasizing, and then
eventually it seemed the fantasies, uh, came to be.
What triggered it all?
I wish I could give you a good, straightforward answer on that.
If there's any area that is, uh, to really blame,
it's my own twisted thinking. I haven't been thinking normally for years.
What was the problem growing up
between your mom and dad?
Ugh!
They just couldn't seem to get along,
especially on my mom's side.
Any violence?
Just the slapping and hitting.
- Who was hitting who? - Um, Mom hitting Dad.
Whose side were you on?
I was trying not to be on anyone's side.
How long had you known you're homosexual?
Uh, since I was 13, I'd say.
What did you do? Just kissing.
Laying together,
in the tree house.
I was about 14 or 15.
And that was consensual.
When was the first time you thought
about doing these things to a person?
Uh…
- I mean, just fantasy. - Yeah.
Probably around when I was 18.
When did your parents separate?
When I was 18.
In 1978.
Mom and Dad, they had their problems.
There was nothing I could do to change the situation,
so I just tried to
find some happiness my own way,
which was obviously the wrong way.
The day she left to Chippewa Falls
-you never talked to her again? Right.
How did it make you feel at that time?
Uh, depressed.
Lonely and bored.
Confused, I would say.
No one was at home.
I saw this guy hitchhiking.
I thought it'd be nice to have someone around to talk with,
and someone that I wanted to be with for sex.
That's what attracted me. The physique.
Just the muscular physique.
That's… That's the motivation.
You hadn't done anything with him, had you?
No.
I just got the sense he wasn't interested in that at all,
after a while talking with him.
So I don't believe I asked him, no.
Okay.
It was the first time, uh…
I did have the desire to control.
I lost all feelings,
so I guess I just decided
to do it, whether he was, uh, gay or not.
It didn't really matter.
I dunno why I hit him, except I wanted to stay with him
for longer.
I thought how amazing it was
that I was actually doing it
to another human being.
It shocked me
that I got to that point.
And that was a feeling of excitement,
control,
but mingled with a lot of fear.
What did you do with his body? -Nothing.
Just right under the…
under the house in the crawl space area.
Did you go down and look at him? - I did once.
But just looked at him.
What was going through your mind as you were looking at him?
Uh…
A sort of morbid curiosity as to…
what a dead person looked like.
Uh…
Curiosity mixed with a lot of fear.
I started dismembering him and everything.
There's something about him that I remember.
Cutting the legs off and then the arms and head.
Did you touch anything?
I… I probably did.
Liver and the heart.
Did it concern you at all as to why you felt
such satisfaction at that time,
when you were 18 years old, by using him to masturbate?
I'm not sure I even know why now.
I got, uh, an exciting feeling out of doing that.
But I did it.
How long did you keep him in the house with you?
Um…
I don't know. Six hours.
Dad was living at the hotel,
so I was pretty much by myself for a couple months.
During the time your father was at the hotel,
how many times a day would you speak with him?
Maybe once or twice a week.
After that, you said you went to Ohio State?
For about three months.
Did a lot of drinking there, so grades weren't very good.
They sent me to basic training.
Then field medic training.
I was drinking heavily near the end,
so I had to move back to Ohio with the folks.
I was troubled about that.
How did it manifest itself that you were troubled by it?
What were you feeling?
A lot of guilt.
Indecision over whether I should
confess to it.
But I just never had the courage to.
What were you thinking?
Well, I knew how horribly wrong it was.
And I never wanted to have anything like that ever happen again.
It's difficult dredging up these feelings
and motivations, you know.
I know it's real hard. If it gets too difficult, tell me.
-You realize why… - Yes, it… it…
Talking about it and analyzing it
shows me just how,
uh, warped my thinking was.
You ever try to develop a relationship?
Uh, no. I can't say that I did.
Why not?
Well, it was because of the home situation.
I couldn't carry on
a long-term relationship where I was staying.
I had moved out then,
to here up in Wisconsin
to help my grandma out.
Uh, I helped her with the yard work
and various chores.
I really made a sincere effort
to change the way I was living,
to change my desires.
To get rid of the, uh…
homosexual, uh, feelings that I had.
Any sinful thoughts.
Started going to church with Grandma
on a regular basis.
And, uh, tried to stifle
any sexual feelings that I had.
My grandma was going to church every Sunday.
What denomination is she?
Protestant.
I was walking around Southridge
and, uh, saw this mannequin
that sort of caught my eye.
I wanted that mannequin, so I…
went in the store.
There's nobody in there.
Stayed there until closing time.
- And no alarms went off? - No, nothing.
I got the mannequin undressed,
got a taxi back home,
and stored it in the garage
at, uh, Grandma's house.
And I used to play around with it after…
dressing it up and undressing it.
Pretending it was real.
After a week or two, Grandma would stumble across it.
She was hanging up some clothes that she'd washed for me.
- She did? - Yeah. She asked me what was it.
Where did I get it.
And I gave her some story that I picked it up at…
They had extra mannequins that they were selling.
I think she called Dad, so I figured I better get rid of it.
Took it down to the basement and, uh,
smashed it up, and threw it out in the garbage.
I was in the West Allis library…
…just sitting in a chair, reading a book.
It was the last thing I expected, you know?
I just laughed it off to myself. I thought, uh,
"That's an awful feeble,
uh, attempt to get me to stumble,"
you know?
I never saw his face or anything.
You'd put the compulsion to rest when you went to church with Grandma,
and it came back stronger, didn't it?
That's what triggered it, I guess.
I at least had a job that paid halfway decent.
I could look forward to free time.
Privacy.
Started drinking again,
going to the bookstores.
Uh…
Found out where the gay bars were and started going to them.
What I was looking for was some live companionship.
Someone to spend the night with.
A man I had complete control over,
and to be able to do with as I pleased.
Something real,
uh, instead of fake like the mannequin.
So that was my fantasy.
Little by little, I started falling away…
I just, uh, gave up trying to resist.
What sleeping pills did you use?
Uh, Halcion.
Why did you get that prescription?
For trouble sleeping.
I worked third shift.
That gave you a feeling of control?
Uh…
Well, I could keep them there longer.
I could, uh, just lay around with them
without feeling pressure to do anything that they wanted to do.
Uh…
There just wouldn't be any…
They wouldn't make any demands on me.
Uh, I could just enjoy them the way I wanted to.
Did you think about at all how they might have felt?
Yeah, I think I did, but at that point I didn't much care.
I just wanted to do what I wanted.
So I didn't care.
Did any of that satisfy you?
As far as really getting any true satisfaction?
It didn't.
I didn't have control over them. I…
I wanted all of them, you know.
And, uh, couldn't get it that way.
You totally blacked out?
Yeah.
Had no idea you'd done anything?
No. Not until I woke up in the morning.
I couldn't believe it.
Shocked. Uh…
Panicked.
And, uh…
very sorry that it happened
because I had no intention of anything like that happening.
How'd you know he was dead? You check his pulse?
I was afraid. No.
And there was blood coming out of the mouth.
Apparently, I had beaten him with my fists on the chest.
How did you feel after that time at the Ambassador?
Horrified…
And I never wanted to have anything like that ever happen again.
How did you feel that it came forth even though you were unconscious?
Uh, confused.
Did you feel you'd started to lose control?
Yeah, I knew I had. Yeah.
The Ambassador did something..
It triggered something
I wanted more.
I don't know what it triggered, but it triggered something.
It just gave me a sick pleasure.
It dominated my thoughts, doing these things.
The compulsion was stronger than any… anything else.
It was a single-minded, driving force.
My…
desires, uh, were
bestial, obviously.