1 00:00:11,137 --> 00:00:13,931 I was a young lawyer at the time. 2 00:00:15,641 --> 00:00:16,809 I was in my twenties. 3 00:00:17,435 --> 00:00:19,604 I just moved to Milwaukee. 4 00:00:19,687 --> 00:00:23,524 And a woman living alone, and I didn't know a lot of people. 5 00:00:26,027 --> 00:00:28,362 I get this call from Jerry Boyle, my boss. 6 00:00:29,322 --> 00:00:32,658 He said, "Look, we've got this new case, and it's a big one." 7 00:00:32,742 --> 00:00:36,287 "I need you to go down to the police administration building." 8 00:00:40,917 --> 00:00:42,877 Jerry Boyle indicated, he said, 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,838 "This is somebody I had represented in the past." 10 00:00:45,922 --> 00:00:48,883 "He's a nice man. Don't worry, he won't bite your head off." 11 00:00:50,009 --> 00:00:53,054 I went down immediately as he had requested 12 00:00:54,013 --> 00:00:55,473 to see Jeffrey Dahmer. 13 00:00:56,015 --> 00:00:57,225 It's my first job. 14 00:01:01,604 --> 00:01:04,690 When I first went in to see him, 15 00:01:05,441 --> 00:01:08,361 it was a very small interview room. 16 00:01:15,409 --> 00:01:18,704 There was Jeff, um, sitting in the corner of the table. 17 00:01:20,706 --> 00:01:22,625 I was incredibly nervous 18 00:01:22,708 --> 00:01:25,670 because this was something I felt was way over my head. 19 00:01:25,753 --> 00:01:28,297 Even veteran police officers say 20 00:01:28,381 --> 00:01:31,300 this is among the strangest murder scenes they've witnessed. 21 00:01:32,385 --> 00:01:36,139 The country has been spellbound by the horrifying story of Jeffrey Dahmer. 22 00:01:36,722 --> 00:01:38,850 Murder, mutilation, even cannibalism. 23 00:01:39,642 --> 00:01:42,895 Shock and horror as police carry out a large cooking kettle 24 00:01:42,979 --> 00:01:47,233 in the biggest and most gruesome mass murder case in Milwaukee history. 25 00:01:47,316 --> 00:01:50,403 I felt like Clarice Starling in Silence of the Lambs. 26 00:01:51,571 --> 00:01:53,990 He, uh… He was very polite. 27 00:01:55,116 --> 00:01:57,577 I was somewhat surprised, I guess, 28 00:01:57,660 --> 00:02:00,580 at how, uh, cordial Jeff was. 29 00:02:02,039 --> 00:02:04,542 In order to be a good defense attorney, 30 00:02:04,625 --> 00:02:07,128 you have to be nonjudgmental 31 00:02:07,753 --> 00:02:09,672 and develop a trust. 32 00:02:09,755 --> 00:02:12,341 And, uh, he called me Wendy. I called him Jeff. 33 00:02:13,467 --> 00:02:17,013 This is okay, Jeff. I mean, don't be embarrassed about it. 34 00:02:17,763 --> 00:02:20,016 Am I… Am I making you feel uncomfortable? 35 00:02:20,099 --> 00:02:22,768 No. It has to be faced, so… 36 00:02:24,103 --> 00:02:25,730 It's just so bizarre, isn't it? 37 00:02:26,856 --> 00:02:28,691 It's not… It's not easy to talk about. 38 00:02:28,774 --> 00:02:30,526 It's something that I've kept 39 00:02:30,610 --> 00:02:33,821 buried within myself for many years, 40 00:02:33,905 --> 00:02:35,156 and it's… 41 00:02:35,948 --> 00:02:36,866 Yeah. 42 00:02:37,658 --> 00:02:41,704 It's like trying to pull up a two-ton stone out of a well. 43 00:02:42,663 --> 00:02:45,791 I don't think there's anything that can prepare anybody 44 00:02:45,875 --> 00:02:47,418 for that kind of carnage. 45 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,693 It was a quiet night. 46 00:03:54,402 --> 00:03:57,738 You know, one of those summer nights where it was steamy. 47 00:03:58,572 --> 00:04:02,493 I was a television reporter, and I was among the first people on the scene 48 00:04:02,576 --> 00:04:04,745 at Dahmer's apartment the night he was arrested. 49 00:04:06,789 --> 00:04:10,626 When I arrived, just seeing the faces of the police officers, 50 00:04:10,710 --> 00:04:14,171 that's when I realized that something big was happening there. 51 00:04:20,803 --> 00:04:23,389 I ran into a police officer that I had known. 52 00:04:23,472 --> 00:04:25,016 Bobby Rao was his name. 53 00:04:25,599 --> 00:04:28,269 And I said, "Come on, Bobby. Is this for real?" 54 00:04:28,352 --> 00:04:31,856 He looked at me, shook his head and said, "You bet. This is for real." 55 00:04:33,941 --> 00:04:35,484 Lt. Roosevelt Harrell. 56 00:04:35,568 --> 00:04:37,194 We're investigating a homicide 57 00:04:37,278 --> 00:04:41,407 which occurred in the apartment building in 900 block of North 25th Street. 58 00:04:41,490 --> 00:04:45,119 We do have, uh, one person in custody. 59 00:04:45,202 --> 00:04:49,373 There's a strong possibility there might be additional homicides, uh, 60 00:04:49,457 --> 00:04:52,877 that we're looking into that this individual might be involved in. 61 00:04:53,544 --> 00:04:57,340 The police officer assigned to the door at the Oxford Apartments 62 00:04:58,174 --> 00:04:59,550 was a guy I knew. 63 00:05:00,051 --> 00:05:01,677 And we asked, begged him, 64 00:05:01,761 --> 00:05:04,805 "Could we get in? Could we take pictures inside Dahmer's apartment?" 65 00:05:04,889 --> 00:05:07,767 He shook his head. "You take pictures, I'll lose my job." 66 00:05:08,434 --> 00:05:12,605 But he said, "You can look in. As long as you don't cross the threshold." 67 00:05:13,105 --> 00:05:14,648 So we went to the door, 68 00:05:14,732 --> 00:05:18,611 held onto the frame and leaned forward, and looked inside the apartment. 69 00:05:19,737 --> 00:05:22,948 I remember it being not memorable for a lot of reasons. 70 00:05:23,032 --> 00:05:24,575 There was a rolled-up carpet. 71 00:05:26,202 --> 00:05:27,870 A kitchen to the left. 72 00:05:29,372 --> 00:05:32,750 There was a bedroom off to the right and a bathroom. 73 00:05:36,879 --> 00:05:39,924 But the one thing that stood out more than anything else 74 00:05:40,007 --> 00:05:43,761 was a creepy lava lamp that was going. 75 00:05:43,844 --> 00:05:46,555 The blob going up and down. 76 00:05:46,639 --> 00:05:49,600 Such an eerie feeling about the… the apartment. 77 00:05:58,109 --> 00:06:00,194 The night the Dahmer story broke, 78 00:06:00,277 --> 00:06:03,406 I was a reporter at the Milwaukee Sentinel at the time. 79 00:06:03,989 --> 00:06:07,076 And I'm like the only reporter there because it was late. 80 00:06:09,161 --> 00:06:10,413 Tina Burnside, 81 00:06:10,496 --> 00:06:13,040 who was, uh, a night cops reporter, calls. 82 00:06:15,459 --> 00:06:19,004 She said, "James, I need you to take this down very carefully." 83 00:06:20,881 --> 00:06:24,844 It's the pressure of having an editor breathing over your shoulder saying, 84 00:06:24,927 --> 00:06:26,345 "I need that story now." 85 00:06:26,429 --> 00:06:29,265 I hit "send" to the night editor. 86 00:06:29,348 --> 00:06:31,851 He edits it, sends it off. 87 00:06:33,477 --> 00:06:35,312 I remember him saying at the time, 88 00:06:37,773 --> 00:06:41,944 "This is gonna be the biggest story to ever hit the city of Milwaukee." 89 00:06:45,448 --> 00:06:49,368 I was Chief Prosecutor of Milwaukee many years ago 90 00:06:49,452 --> 00:06:51,287 before I became a defense lawyer. 91 00:06:51,370 --> 00:06:53,414 So I've been on both sides of the fence. 92 00:06:54,248 --> 00:06:58,127 I got a phone call, a fellow from our main TV station. 93 00:06:58,210 --> 00:07:00,838 "Wanna talk to you about a client of yours." 94 00:07:00,921 --> 00:07:03,215 I said, "Who's that?" He said, "Jeffrey Dahmer." 95 00:07:03,299 --> 00:07:05,801 "We think he's a homicidal maniac." 96 00:07:05,885 --> 00:07:09,305 I had represented him in 1988 97 00:07:09,388 --> 00:07:10,848 for some sex crime. 98 00:07:11,765 --> 00:07:15,394 And I said, "Hold that thought. I… I gotta call his father." 99 00:07:15,978 --> 00:07:17,521 I called Lionel Dahmer, 100 00:07:18,063 --> 00:07:21,150 and I told him what the reporter had told me. 101 00:07:21,859 --> 00:07:25,613 I told him that I'd get somebody to find out what's going on. 102 00:07:26,363 --> 00:07:28,449 I called Wendy Patrickus, 103 00:07:29,283 --> 00:07:30,701 and Wendy was available. 104 00:07:34,955 --> 00:07:38,959 First person that they brought me in to see was Detective Murphy. 105 00:07:39,919 --> 00:07:44,548 At that point, the entire interrogation was controlled by the detectives. 106 00:07:48,677 --> 00:07:50,429 When I first met Dahmer, 107 00:07:50,971 --> 00:07:52,848 all he said to me is, 108 00:07:52,932 --> 00:07:54,934 "Why don't you just shoot me now 109 00:07:55,017 --> 00:07:56,519 for what I did?" 110 00:07:57,728 --> 00:07:59,522 And I sat down with him, 111 00:07:59,605 --> 00:08:02,566 reassured him that whatever he could tell me 112 00:08:02,650 --> 00:08:07,613 wouldn't reflect on him, or it wouldn't make me like him or dislike him anymore. 113 00:08:08,781 --> 00:08:11,158 And subsequently 114 00:08:11,242 --> 00:08:13,202 put the confession on paper. 115 00:08:14,370 --> 00:08:18,749 I was a lieutenant assigned to the homicide unit. 116 00:08:19,500 --> 00:08:21,835 Dennis Murphy and Pat Kennedy 117 00:08:21,919 --> 00:08:24,129 were the primary people that interviewed Dahmer. 118 00:08:24,213 --> 00:08:26,674 In fact, pretty much every day that was their job. 119 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,135 The way he was able to recall 120 00:08:30,219 --> 00:08:33,389 every detail of these homicides. 121 00:08:35,849 --> 00:08:37,434 It was incredible. 122 00:08:39,353 --> 00:08:40,688 As I recall, 123 00:08:40,771 --> 00:08:43,566 Jeff was a little drunk at the time. 124 00:08:47,695 --> 00:08:51,115 I did ask him why he was telling the police everything, 125 00:08:51,198 --> 00:08:53,284 why he was rendering a confession. 126 00:08:53,367 --> 00:08:57,538 And he said, "Wendy, they found so much in my apartment." 127 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,209 "You know, the gigs up. So I would prefer to continue talking with them." 128 00:09:02,835 --> 00:09:05,004 He already had his mind made up. 129 00:09:05,087 --> 00:09:08,632 At that point I had to say, "Jeff. I will honor that." 130 00:09:09,508 --> 00:09:11,343 He had already confessed. 131 00:09:12,219 --> 00:09:14,763 So I knew Dahmer didn't have a defense. 132 00:09:14,847 --> 00:09:17,766 So I said to him, "What do you want me to do?" 133 00:09:18,434 --> 00:09:21,979 He said, "I wanna know why I am what I am." 134 00:09:22,563 --> 00:09:23,731 So I told him, 135 00:09:23,814 --> 00:09:26,650 "I can get a good psychiatrist 136 00:09:27,151 --> 00:09:28,819 to come and talk to you, 137 00:09:28,902 --> 00:09:32,990 and plead you not guilty by reason of mental illness." 138 00:09:33,699 --> 00:09:34,658 "Insanity." 139 00:09:34,742 --> 00:09:37,202 "But I'd need doctors 140 00:09:37,286 --> 00:09:39,496 to tell me they can support that." 141 00:09:40,372 --> 00:09:44,251 The real job was to get enough information to give to the doctors 142 00:09:44,877 --> 00:09:46,754 to be able to answer their questions. 143 00:09:46,837 --> 00:09:49,506 The question was whether he was sane or insane. 144 00:09:51,133 --> 00:09:54,887 The next several months, I'd spend considerable time with him, 145 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,348 talking about each victim 146 00:09:57,431 --> 00:10:00,893 and, um, gathering as much information as possible. 147 00:10:17,701 --> 00:10:20,287 Jeff, tell me what you were thinking. 148 00:10:21,038 --> 00:10:23,874 I had wondered why I was compelled 149 00:10:23,957 --> 00:10:26,335 to do all the murders. 150 00:10:27,252 --> 00:10:29,046 What I was searching for 151 00:10:29,129 --> 00:10:32,007 that would, uh, fill the emptiness that I felt. 152 00:10:32,883 --> 00:10:36,095 The murdering someone and… and disposing of them right away 153 00:10:36,178 --> 00:10:38,847 gives no great lasting pleasure 154 00:10:38,931 --> 00:10:41,642 or a feeling of fulfillment. 155 00:10:42,726 --> 00:10:45,437 And yet I still felt the compulsion 156 00:10:46,647 --> 00:10:48,982 to do it throughout these years. 157 00:10:52,361 --> 00:10:55,614 Jeff wanting to identify all the victims, 158 00:10:56,490 --> 00:10:58,742 this was very unique 159 00:10:58,826 --> 00:11:03,414 in somebody who is a serial killer, a true serial killer. 160 00:11:03,497 --> 00:11:05,040 Didn't deny it. 161 00:11:05,124 --> 00:11:08,210 And said, "Yes, I killed and I killed." 162 00:11:08,293 --> 00:11:11,004 "This is how I killed. And this was why." 163 00:11:12,256 --> 00:11:14,925 I didn't seem to have 164 00:11:15,008 --> 00:11:18,595 the normal feelings of empathy. 165 00:11:19,888 --> 00:11:21,849 Did you ever think to yourself, 166 00:11:21,932 --> 00:11:24,476 "Why don't I have feelings that normal people have?" 167 00:11:25,269 --> 00:11:26,937 I did wonder about it. 168 00:11:28,939 --> 00:11:31,275 It started with fantasies, fantasizing. 169 00:11:31,358 --> 00:11:34,403 It always started with fantasizing, and then 170 00:11:34,486 --> 00:11:38,449 eventually it seemed the fantasies, uh, came to be. 171 00:11:40,993 --> 00:11:43,036 He took his fantasy world 172 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:48,459 to degrees and places that most of us would never even conceive of. 173 00:11:51,211 --> 00:11:52,880 I interviewed Jeffrey Dahmer 174 00:11:52,963 --> 00:11:55,132 at the request of defense attorney Jerry Boyle. 175 00:11:55,215 --> 00:12:00,053 I'd been asked if there was, in my view, a defense of insanity here. 176 00:12:01,305 --> 00:12:04,767 I had a 30-year career in Milwaukee as a forensic psychologist, 177 00:12:04,850 --> 00:12:07,853 and Dahmer's case came mid-career for me. 178 00:12:08,479 --> 00:12:11,732 There were others that followed, but nothing like this. 179 00:12:14,109 --> 00:12:16,737 What triggered it all? 180 00:12:16,820 --> 00:12:19,948 I wish I could give you a good, straightforward answer on that. 181 00:12:22,117 --> 00:12:26,121 If there's any area that is, uh, to really blame, 182 00:12:26,205 --> 00:12:30,751 it's my own twisted thinking. I haven't been thinking normally for years. 183 00:12:45,724 --> 00:12:49,228 Jeffrey was more reserved at talking about his childhood. 184 00:12:51,230 --> 00:12:54,900 There were pictures I saw of him when he was younger with his dad Lionel, 185 00:12:54,983 --> 00:12:57,986 and, you know, it seemed very normal. 186 00:12:58,070 --> 00:13:00,489 You know, they're playing catch with the ball. 187 00:13:00,572 --> 00:13:02,449 But his father was gone a lot. 188 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,870 He's a scientist, and, you know, he was furthering his own education. 189 00:13:07,496 --> 00:13:10,707 But Jeff was adamant that there wasn't any huge traumas 190 00:13:10,791 --> 00:13:13,460 that would have caused him to do these things. 191 00:13:14,044 --> 00:13:16,713 Wasn't like he was sexually abused or beaten. 192 00:13:16,797 --> 00:13:20,342 The one thing that Jeffrey did tell me and Jerry Boyle 193 00:13:20,425 --> 00:13:23,720 about his childhood that really affected him 194 00:13:23,804 --> 00:13:27,307 was this, uh, constant bickering between his parents. 195 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,811 What was the problem growing up 196 00:13:30,894 --> 00:13:32,479 between your mom and dad? 197 00:13:32,563 --> 00:13:33,397 Ugh! 198 00:13:34,439 --> 00:13:37,693 They just couldn't seem to get along, 199 00:13:37,776 --> 00:13:39,528 especially on my mom's side. 200 00:13:39,611 --> 00:13:40,737 Any violence? 201 00:13:41,238 --> 00:13:43,282 Just the slapping and hitting. 202 00:13:43,824 --> 00:13:47,160 -Who was hitting who? -Um, Mom hitting Dad. 203 00:13:48,704 --> 00:13:50,289 Whose side were you on? 204 00:13:51,248 --> 00:13:54,626 I was trying not to be on anyone's side. 205 00:13:56,378 --> 00:14:00,132 I had inquired into the family history 206 00:14:00,215 --> 00:14:01,216 on both sides 207 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,637 to see if there was any insanity here, any peculiar things 208 00:14:05,721 --> 00:14:08,098 about those family members 209 00:14:08,181 --> 00:14:09,933 that might give us an insight 210 00:14:10,017 --> 00:14:13,437 as to how Dahmer became what he became. 211 00:14:14,354 --> 00:14:17,858 And I didn't find anything on Lionel Dahmer's side. 212 00:14:18,734 --> 00:14:20,861 And on Joyce's side, 213 00:14:20,944 --> 00:14:23,697 I think there was some alcoholism in her family. 214 00:14:24,197 --> 00:14:26,825 But there's alcoholism in a lot of families. 215 00:14:27,367 --> 00:14:29,161 So it didn't mean anything to me. 216 00:14:31,204 --> 00:14:34,666 Jeffrey had, uh, a brother, who was born when Jeffrey was about six. 217 00:14:35,792 --> 00:14:36,627 David. 218 00:14:38,086 --> 00:14:41,465 All attention then was given to his younger brother. 219 00:14:42,132 --> 00:14:45,010 So he was already alone a lot. 220 00:14:47,638 --> 00:14:49,681 When Jeff and I were growing up, 221 00:14:49,765 --> 00:14:52,893 I don't think he had a large group of friends. 222 00:14:52,976 --> 00:14:56,313 I never really saw other people come over. 223 00:14:56,396 --> 00:14:59,024 It was basically Jeff and… and myself. 224 00:15:00,484 --> 00:15:03,570 Our driveways were directly across the street from each other, 225 00:15:04,154 --> 00:15:07,741 so we could take our bicycles and zoom right across the street, 226 00:15:07,824 --> 00:15:09,952 or just play ball, go sledding. 227 00:15:10,619 --> 00:15:12,537 His father was quite concerned 228 00:15:12,621 --> 00:15:15,582 that Jeffrey did not do well in school. 229 00:15:15,666 --> 00:15:17,501 Didn't have very many friends. 230 00:15:17,584 --> 00:15:19,878 Never had any contact with girls. 231 00:15:21,338 --> 00:15:24,049 How long had you known you're homosexual? 232 00:15:24,132 --> 00:15:26,969 Uh, since I was 13, I'd say. 233 00:15:28,011 --> 00:15:31,682 Jeffrey became aware of his sexuality 234 00:15:31,765 --> 00:15:33,767 about the time he reached puberty, 235 00:15:33,850 --> 00:15:35,811 which is what you would expect. 236 00:15:37,020 --> 00:15:39,815 He knew that it would be contrary 237 00:15:39,898 --> 00:15:42,734 to the wishes of his father and mother. 238 00:15:43,402 --> 00:15:45,696 And it was about the time that he did 239 00:15:45,779 --> 00:15:48,740 some sexual experimentation with another boy in the neighborhood. 240 00:15:50,742 --> 00:15:53,662 -What did you do? Just kissing. 241 00:15:54,204 --> 00:15:55,706 Laying together, 242 00:15:55,789 --> 00:15:57,124 in the tree house. 243 00:15:57,874 --> 00:15:59,918 I was about 14 or 15. 244 00:16:00,836 --> 00:16:02,546 And that was consensual. 245 00:16:04,423 --> 00:16:09,136 As he got older, Jeffrey became walled up emotionally 246 00:16:09,219 --> 00:16:11,221 from his peers, his teachers, 247 00:16:11,304 --> 00:16:13,724 childhood friends, even his parents. 248 00:16:17,394 --> 00:16:20,564 I served as the elected District Attorney of Milwaukee County 249 00:16:20,647 --> 00:16:23,066 during the years of Dahmer's murders. 250 00:16:23,150 --> 00:16:25,777 I was also the prosecutor of the case itself. 251 00:16:25,861 --> 00:16:28,155 I was the attorney in court prosecuting him. 252 00:16:32,117 --> 00:16:34,036 By the time he was a senior in high school, 253 00:16:34,119 --> 00:16:37,122 he started having fantasies. Sexual fantasies. 254 00:16:37,205 --> 00:16:39,624 One of those was having sex with a person 255 00:16:39,708 --> 00:16:42,127 who was, in effect, completely submissive to him. 256 00:16:42,210 --> 00:16:45,088 To violently force someone to submit to him. 257 00:16:45,589 --> 00:16:48,008 When was the first time you thought 258 00:16:48,091 --> 00:16:49,551 about doing these things to a person? 259 00:16:50,052 --> 00:16:50,969 Uh… 260 00:16:51,678 --> 00:16:53,680 -I mean, just fantasy. -Yeah. 261 00:16:54,347 --> 00:16:57,142 Probably around when I was 18. 262 00:16:59,561 --> 00:17:02,689 He fantasized about a jogger that came by frequently. 263 00:17:03,774 --> 00:17:07,486 He wondered what that person would look like without a shirt on. 264 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,698 He wanted to have sex with that young man, was drawn to that man to have sex. 265 00:17:12,449 --> 00:17:14,659 But he didn't know how to approach it or what to do. 266 00:17:14,743 --> 00:17:18,205 So he decided he would knock him unconscious in the woods 267 00:17:18,288 --> 00:17:20,624 and have sex with him while he was unconscious. 268 00:17:21,333 --> 00:17:23,168 It wasn't an object to kill him. 269 00:17:23,251 --> 00:17:27,339 It was an object to touch, cuddle, explore the body. 270 00:17:27,422 --> 00:17:29,257 It wasn't the relationship. 271 00:17:29,341 --> 00:17:31,218 It's not the person. 272 00:17:31,301 --> 00:17:33,136 It's the well-toned, 273 00:17:33,220 --> 00:17:35,889 athletic male body. That's what he wanted. 274 00:17:36,598 --> 00:17:39,935 He sawed off a bat for a weapon to knock the man unconscious. 275 00:17:40,852 --> 00:17:42,521 He had hid behind a tree. 276 00:17:45,524 --> 00:17:48,235 But that particular jogger did not come by, 277 00:17:48,318 --> 00:17:49,861 so he abandoned that idea. 278 00:17:51,613 --> 00:17:54,783 That was basically Dahmer's first violent fantasy. 279 00:17:55,492 --> 00:17:58,829 To do that to this man that jogged through his neighborhood. 280 00:18:14,636 --> 00:18:17,055 From WTMJ TV. 281 00:18:17,139 --> 00:18:19,391 Milwaukee's 24-hour news channel. 282 00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:23,270 This is News Channel 4 Daybreak. 283 00:18:24,187 --> 00:18:27,399 My first opportunity to share the news with the world 284 00:18:27,482 --> 00:18:31,278 was in a morning live shot on a, uh, morning news show. 285 00:18:31,361 --> 00:18:35,031 Good morning. A very gruesome discovery in Milwaukee overnight. 286 00:18:35,115 --> 00:18:39,035 Milwaukee police find a horrifying scene inside an apartment building. 287 00:18:39,619 --> 00:18:43,999 What I recited shocked the anchor people back at the station. 288 00:18:44,082 --> 00:18:47,127 Mike and Juliet, police got here in the middle of the night, 289 00:18:47,210 --> 00:18:51,339 and what they found was an apartment full of pieces of people. 290 00:18:51,423 --> 00:18:55,093 Men who were apparently killed by another man, a resident here, 291 00:18:55,177 --> 00:18:58,597 in what appears to be a sexually motivated mass murder. 292 00:18:59,598 --> 00:19:02,392 At the end of the broadcast, I was expecting a question. 293 00:19:02,475 --> 00:19:04,936 You always get a routine question from the anchor people. 294 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,105 The bodies were dismembered, 295 00:19:07,189 --> 00:19:09,649 so literally piecing together the information, 296 00:19:09,733 --> 00:19:12,485 it's gonna be difficult to figure out who the victims are. 297 00:19:13,236 --> 00:19:14,404 They were silent. 298 00:19:17,199 --> 00:19:21,203 I asked them later, "What happened? Why didn't you ask me a question?" 299 00:19:21,286 --> 00:19:24,789 They said, "We were so stunned, we couldn't think of a question." 300 00:19:27,959 --> 00:19:29,544 I remember going to the scene 301 00:19:29,628 --> 00:19:32,172 because as a reporter, you wanna see for yourself. 302 00:19:32,255 --> 00:19:34,549 And it was… it was literally a zoo. 303 00:19:34,633 --> 00:19:38,136 -It was like that for days on end. 304 00:19:38,929 --> 00:19:43,016 People were shocked. They were awed. And they couldn't turn away. 305 00:19:49,814 --> 00:19:53,193 You can't imagine the enormity of it all. 306 00:19:53,276 --> 00:19:55,195 It was anxiety. 307 00:19:55,278 --> 00:19:58,698 It was a lot of excitement, to some extent. 308 00:19:59,407 --> 00:20:01,910 But worried that I was doing my job right. 309 00:20:02,452 --> 00:20:04,913 When did your parents separate? 310 00:20:04,996 --> 00:20:06,331 When I was 18. 311 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,667 In 1978. 312 00:20:09,709 --> 00:20:13,421 Instilling in him that I'm not somebody sitting here judging him, 313 00:20:14,130 --> 00:20:16,091 um, was of utmost importance 314 00:20:16,174 --> 00:20:17,842 to cut through everything, 315 00:20:17,926 --> 00:20:19,844 because there was so much material. 316 00:20:21,012 --> 00:20:24,516 To get that trust made all the difference in the world. 317 00:20:26,101 --> 00:20:29,562 Mom and Dad, they had their problems. 318 00:20:30,355 --> 00:20:33,358 There was nothing I could do to change the situation, 319 00:20:33,858 --> 00:20:35,402 so I just tried to 320 00:20:35,902 --> 00:20:39,364 find some happiness my own way, 321 00:20:40,031 --> 00:20:42,200 which was obviously the wrong way. 322 00:20:53,545 --> 00:20:56,172 Dahmer had just graduated from high school. 323 00:20:58,341 --> 00:21:00,427 His parents were going through a divorce, 324 00:21:00,510 --> 00:21:03,596 and Dahmer was alone at the home in Bath, Ohio. 325 00:21:05,265 --> 00:21:07,642 His mother kicked his father out. 326 00:21:07,726 --> 00:21:09,894 He moved out to a motel. 327 00:21:10,812 --> 00:21:12,564 Unbeknownst to his dad, 328 00:21:12,647 --> 00:21:14,899 his mother just decided, "I've had enough." 329 00:21:14,983 --> 00:21:17,694 So she left abruptly with his brother. 330 00:21:18,570 --> 00:21:20,322 I don't think his father knew 331 00:21:20,405 --> 00:21:24,117 that the mother had left for Wisconsin at the time. 332 00:21:25,118 --> 00:21:28,330 Jeffrey Dahmer never used the word "abandoned by his parents," 333 00:21:28,413 --> 00:21:32,459 although I think that he might have been familiar with that feeling. 334 00:21:33,418 --> 00:21:35,795 The day she left to Chippewa Falls 335 00:21:35,879 --> 00:21:38,048 -you never talked to her again? Right. 336 00:21:38,131 --> 00:21:40,133 How did it make you feel at that time? 337 00:21:40,216 --> 00:21:41,760 Uh, depressed. 338 00:21:41,843 --> 00:21:43,303 Lonely and bored. 339 00:21:44,971 --> 00:21:46,598 Confused, I would say. 340 00:21:48,016 --> 00:21:49,893 No one was at home. 341 00:21:50,602 --> 00:21:52,479 I saw this guy hitchhiking. 342 00:21:52,562 --> 00:21:56,149 I thought it'd be nice to have someone around to talk with, 343 00:21:57,150 --> 00:22:01,321 and someone that I wanted to be with for sex. 344 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,834 In 1978, Steven Hicks was hitchhiking 345 00:22:14,918 --> 00:22:17,087 to a rock concert. 346 00:22:19,089 --> 00:22:24,010 One of the things that Jeffrey was always interested in 347 00:22:24,886 --> 00:22:27,597 was the torso, the physique, 348 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,684 how well-built, how attractive the individual was. 349 00:22:32,727 --> 00:22:34,979 That was the driving force of his attraction. 350 00:22:36,231 --> 00:22:39,984 That's what attracted me. The physique. 351 00:22:40,068 --> 00:22:41,903 Just the muscular physique. 352 00:22:42,487 --> 00:22:44,739 That's… That's the motivation. 353 00:22:45,657 --> 00:22:48,827 When Steven Hicks was hitchhiking and didn't have a shirt on, 354 00:22:49,411 --> 00:22:52,914 he said to me, "This is unbelievable. This was the fantasy I had." 355 00:22:53,581 --> 00:22:55,583 "Now I'm able to enact it." 356 00:22:56,126 --> 00:22:57,210 Jeffrey thought, 357 00:22:57,293 --> 00:23:00,880 "What a great opportunity. I've got a car, a house. Nobody around." 358 00:23:00,964 --> 00:23:04,509 "So let me see if I can get this guy to come back to the house." 359 00:23:05,218 --> 00:23:07,470 He stopped, talked to him and said, 360 00:23:07,554 --> 00:23:09,931 "Look, I've got some beer and pot at the house." 361 00:23:10,014 --> 00:23:12,725 "Do you wanna come back and share that with me?" 362 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:14,978 Steven Hicks said yes. 363 00:23:15,562 --> 00:23:17,730 Mr. Hicks was not gay. 364 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,358 There wasn't any sexual interaction. 365 00:23:22,444 --> 00:23:24,821 You hadn't done anything with him, had you? 366 00:23:24,904 --> 00:23:25,822 No. 367 00:23:26,948 --> 00:23:29,701 I just got the sense he wasn't interested in that at all, 368 00:23:29,784 --> 00:23:31,786 after a while talking with him. 369 00:23:31,870 --> 00:23:34,038 So I don't believe I asked him, no. 370 00:23:34,831 --> 00:23:35,832 Okay. 371 00:23:36,749 --> 00:23:40,211 At some point, Steven Hicks indicated to Jeffrey, 372 00:23:40,295 --> 00:23:42,964 "I gotta get going. I can't stay here any longer." 373 00:23:43,047 --> 00:23:45,133 "People will be wondering where I am." 374 00:23:46,593 --> 00:23:48,136 Jeff didn't wanna let him go. 375 00:23:50,513 --> 00:23:52,891 It was the first time, uh… 376 00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:56,352 I did have the desire to control. 377 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,063 I lost all feelings, 378 00:23:59,772 --> 00:24:02,650 so I guess I just decided 379 00:24:03,568 --> 00:24:06,529 to do it, whether he was, uh, gay or not. 380 00:24:06,613 --> 00:24:08,281 It didn't really matter. 381 00:24:10,742 --> 00:24:13,661 Dahmer took a barbell from a weight set 382 00:24:13,745 --> 00:24:16,331 and hit Steven Hicks over the head with it. 383 00:24:30,303 --> 00:24:34,098 I dunno why I hit him, except I wanted to stay with him 384 00:24:34,182 --> 00:24:35,266 for longer. 385 00:24:36,643 --> 00:24:39,437 Steven is then unconscious at this point, 386 00:24:39,521 --> 00:24:43,900 and Jeffrey uses the barbell to… to strangle Steven. 387 00:24:44,609 --> 00:24:47,195 I thought how amazing it was 388 00:24:47,278 --> 00:24:50,782 that I was actually doing it 389 00:24:50,865 --> 00:24:52,408 to another human being. 390 00:24:52,492 --> 00:24:53,868 It shocked me 391 00:24:53,952 --> 00:24:56,037 that I got to that point. 392 00:24:57,330 --> 00:24:59,582 And that was a feeling of excitement, 393 00:24:59,666 --> 00:25:00,625 control, 394 00:25:01,209 --> 00:25:03,503 but mingled with a lot of fear. 395 00:25:04,629 --> 00:25:06,881 What did you do with his body? - Nothing. 396 00:25:06,965 --> 00:25:08,550 Just right under the… 397 00:25:09,342 --> 00:25:12,387 under the house in the crawl space area. 398 00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:14,931 Did you go down and look at him? -I did once. 399 00:25:15,014 --> 00:25:16,516 But just looked at him. 400 00:25:17,559 --> 00:25:20,645 What was going through your mind as you were looking at him? 401 00:25:21,563 --> 00:25:22,522 Uh… 402 00:25:23,565 --> 00:25:26,776 A sort of morbid curiosity as to… 403 00:25:28,653 --> 00:25:30,822 what a dead person looked like. 404 00:25:33,032 --> 00:25:33,950 Uh… 405 00:25:34,784 --> 00:25:37,912 Curiosity mixed with a lot of fear. 406 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,542 It was after that 407 00:25:42,625 --> 00:25:46,296 that now he has this anxiety, uh, panic. 408 00:25:46,838 --> 00:25:50,383 "Uh, what am I gonna do with the body? How am I gonna get rid of this?" 409 00:25:57,473 --> 00:26:00,143 I started dismembering him and everything. 410 00:26:00,226 --> 00:26:02,770 There's something about him that I remember. 411 00:26:02,854 --> 00:26:06,107 Cutting the legs off and then the arms and head. 412 00:26:07,817 --> 00:26:09,319 Did you touch anything? 413 00:26:09,402 --> 00:26:11,321 I… I probably did. 414 00:26:11,404 --> 00:26:12,864 Liver and the heart. 415 00:26:15,700 --> 00:26:17,910 He had the head separate for a while. 416 00:26:17,994 --> 00:26:21,164 He masturbated to the body parts. 417 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,667 Did it concern you at all as to why you felt 418 00:26:24,751 --> 00:26:26,502 such satisfaction at that time, 419 00:26:26,586 --> 00:26:30,089 when you were 18 years old, by using him to masturbate? 420 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,593 I'm not sure I even know why now. 421 00:26:33,676 --> 00:26:37,013 I got, uh, an exciting feeling out of doing that. 422 00:26:38,806 --> 00:26:39,932 But I did it. 423 00:26:40,850 --> 00:26:43,144 How long did you keep him in the house with you? 424 00:26:43,227 --> 00:26:44,103 Um… 425 00:26:44,604 --> 00:26:46,773 I don't know. Six hours. 426 00:26:51,819 --> 00:26:53,696 He got the most satisfaction 427 00:26:53,780 --> 00:26:55,907 in what he did with the body afterwards. 428 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,786 It was true that he did have a sexual disorder. 429 00:27:00,912 --> 00:27:05,458 In an attempt to try and get him through the insanity plea, 430 00:27:05,541 --> 00:27:09,545 I know that one of our experts, uh, went into it a great deal. 431 00:27:10,963 --> 00:27:13,091 I'm a forensic psychiatrist. 432 00:27:13,633 --> 00:27:16,636 I was an expert witness in the Jeffrey Dahmer case. 433 00:27:19,013 --> 00:27:22,266 My expertise is in paraphilias, which is in layman's terms 434 00:27:22,350 --> 00:27:23,935 sexual deviation disorders. 435 00:27:24,018 --> 00:27:27,480 People have something different or aberrant about their sexual makeup. 436 00:27:28,773 --> 00:27:31,609 My diagnosis of Mr. Dahmer was necrophilia. 437 00:27:32,235 --> 00:27:34,737 Necrophilia is a condition 438 00:27:34,821 --> 00:27:36,698 in which an individual 439 00:27:36,781 --> 00:27:38,157 is very much aroused 440 00:27:38,241 --> 00:27:41,577 by having sex with individuals after they've passed away. 441 00:27:43,246 --> 00:27:44,956 So there's the corpse. 442 00:27:45,540 --> 00:27:46,874 There's Jeffrey. 443 00:27:47,458 --> 00:27:51,254 About three o'clock in the morning, he decided to dispose of the body 444 00:27:51,337 --> 00:27:53,464 by taking it to a ravine 445 00:27:53,548 --> 00:27:56,050 that he knew was some miles down the road. 446 00:28:00,930 --> 00:28:03,766 He took the body, put the body into garbage bags, 447 00:28:03,850 --> 00:28:07,895 and was stopped by a police officer because he crossed the median line. 448 00:28:12,066 --> 00:28:15,111 They tested him for drunken driving. He passed. 449 00:28:15,194 --> 00:28:18,197 The officer took his flashlight and flashed it into the back, 450 00:28:18,281 --> 00:28:21,701 and there was the garbage bag with Hicks' dead body in it. 451 00:28:21,784 --> 00:28:25,580 The officer asked what it was. He said, "The garbage. My parents are breaking up." 452 00:28:25,663 --> 00:28:28,624 "I'm alone. I couldn't sleep, so I thought I'd get rid of the garbage." 453 00:28:28,708 --> 00:28:32,545 You've got a dead body in the seat behind you that you've just killed, 454 00:28:32,628 --> 00:28:34,589 and you're now talking with a police officer. 455 00:28:34,672 --> 00:28:36,632 You're an 18-year-old boy. 456 00:28:36,716 --> 00:28:40,219 Dahmer knew what was at stake, and Dahmer was cool enough to say, 457 00:28:40,303 --> 00:28:43,931 "Just on the way to dump the garbage." The officer believed him. 458 00:28:44,015 --> 00:28:47,560 Although he saw the bags, he never looked in the bags. 459 00:28:48,394 --> 00:28:51,147 He was able to convince that officer. 460 00:28:51,731 --> 00:28:54,525 After that, he knew that he could manipulate. 461 00:28:54,609 --> 00:28:58,529 He knew he could make a statement to somebody and get away with it. 462 00:28:59,489 --> 00:29:02,033 He turned around and went back to the house. 463 00:29:03,826 --> 00:29:08,539 He found a galvanized pipe. He said it was about two feet, 464 00:29:08,623 --> 00:29:10,458 that he stuffed the bags into. 465 00:29:11,250 --> 00:29:14,003 Uh, he went out over the bridge, over the river, 466 00:29:14,086 --> 00:29:17,465 and threw any other personal items 467 00:29:17,548 --> 00:29:19,217 of, uh, Mr. Hicks. 468 00:29:19,967 --> 00:29:22,595 Including a knife that he… that he used 469 00:29:22,678 --> 00:29:25,181 to cut the body into manageable pieces. 470 00:29:26,182 --> 00:29:28,267 Dad was living at the hotel, 471 00:29:28,351 --> 00:29:31,646 so I was pretty much by myself for a couple months. 472 00:29:32,438 --> 00:29:34,649 During the time your father was at the hotel, 473 00:29:34,732 --> 00:29:36,651 how many times a day would you speak with him? 474 00:29:37,693 --> 00:29:39,570 Maybe once or twice a week. 475 00:29:40,655 --> 00:29:43,783 His father and Shari, his soon-to-be stepmother, 476 00:29:43,866 --> 00:29:45,243 came back to the house. 477 00:29:45,326 --> 00:29:47,370 There wasn't much food in the refrigerator. 478 00:29:47,453 --> 00:29:49,413 Alcohol bottles were around. 479 00:29:49,497 --> 00:29:53,125 It looked like a life that was in trouble as a young man. 480 00:29:54,210 --> 00:29:56,462 His father was quite concerned, 481 00:29:56,546 --> 00:29:58,464 so they moved back in. 482 00:30:02,802 --> 00:30:05,805 After that, you said you went to Ohio State? 483 00:30:05,888 --> 00:30:07,557 For about three months. 484 00:30:09,642 --> 00:30:13,604 Did a lot of drinking there, so grades weren't very good. 485 00:30:15,231 --> 00:30:16,941 I think his dad had gotten him into… 486 00:30:17,525 --> 00:30:18,985 It was Ohio State. 487 00:30:19,068 --> 00:30:21,821 He was drinking very heavily, essentially flunked out. 488 00:30:22,864 --> 00:30:24,532 The decision was made 489 00:30:24,615 --> 00:30:27,869 by his dad and stepmother, he would go into the army. 490 00:30:29,829 --> 00:30:32,415 They sent me to basic training. 491 00:30:33,332 --> 00:30:35,001 Then field medic training. 492 00:30:36,878 --> 00:30:38,588 He indicated to me 493 00:30:38,671 --> 00:30:41,549 that this was something that he learned about, 494 00:30:41,632 --> 00:30:44,176 being able to identify the organs, 495 00:30:44,260 --> 00:30:46,846 um, through his training in the military. 496 00:30:47,555 --> 00:30:51,183 Jeffrey Dahmer was discharged because of drinking. 497 00:30:51,851 --> 00:30:53,978 I was drinking heavily near the end, 498 00:30:54,061 --> 00:30:58,482 so I had to move back to Ohio with the folks. 499 00:30:59,859 --> 00:31:03,362 When he came back and came to the house three years later, 500 00:31:03,988 --> 00:31:06,657 the bags with Steven Hicks' body… 501 00:31:07,658 --> 00:31:09,368 Those bags were still there. 502 00:31:14,165 --> 00:31:17,877 Jeffrey Dahmer spread out the remains of Steve Hicks 503 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,713 over the one and a quarter wooded acres 504 00:31:20,796 --> 00:31:22,590 on which the family lived. 505 00:31:22,673 --> 00:31:26,052 Here's a fine young man that disappeared into thin air. 506 00:31:28,971 --> 00:31:32,808 You can imagine. They didn't learn this until July of 1991. 507 00:31:32,892 --> 00:31:36,729 Their son disappeared in June of 1978. 508 00:31:36,812 --> 00:31:38,481 For 13 years, 509 00:31:38,564 --> 00:31:42,109 that family had no idea what had happened to their son, 510 00:31:42,193 --> 00:31:43,235 Steven Hicks. 511 00:31:51,911 --> 00:31:54,622 I was troubled about that. 512 00:31:57,124 --> 00:32:00,211 How did it manifest itself that you were troubled by it? 513 00:32:00,294 --> 00:32:01,963 What were you feeling? 514 00:32:02,046 --> 00:32:03,339 A lot of guilt. 515 00:32:04,465 --> 00:32:06,592 Indecision over whether I should 516 00:32:07,802 --> 00:32:08,886 confess to it. 517 00:32:13,057 --> 00:32:15,476 But I just never had the courage to. 518 00:32:15,559 --> 00:32:17,144 What were you thinking? 519 00:32:17,853 --> 00:32:21,065 Well, I knew how horribly wrong it was. 520 00:32:22,525 --> 00:32:26,612 And I never wanted to have anything like that ever happen again. 521 00:32:38,833 --> 00:32:40,960 During our interview with Jeffrey Dahmer, 522 00:32:41,043 --> 00:32:44,088 we talked to him about family members, 523 00:32:44,171 --> 00:32:46,674 and Jeff says, "Leave my family out of it." 524 00:32:47,550 --> 00:32:51,762 He says, "My parents don't have any knowledge of my activities." 525 00:32:52,763 --> 00:32:54,348 I… I told Lionel, 526 00:32:54,432 --> 00:32:55,766 Jeff's father, 527 00:32:56,434 --> 00:32:59,603 about the homicides, and his reaction was shock. 528 00:33:00,187 --> 00:33:03,733 He couldn't understand how his kid would do this to someone. 529 00:33:04,650 --> 00:33:07,486 How is his family reacting to all of this? 530 00:33:08,154 --> 00:33:11,032 I can only state that, uh, it would be predictable 531 00:33:11,115 --> 00:33:13,784 as to how anyone's family would react to this. 532 00:33:13,868 --> 00:33:17,872 They likewise are extremely despairing. 533 00:33:18,497 --> 00:33:21,751 They feel horrible for the tragedy that has happened, 534 00:33:22,334 --> 00:33:25,463 including the victims and the victims' family. 535 00:33:25,546 --> 00:33:28,507 And, of course, feel great grief for their son. 536 00:33:28,591 --> 00:33:31,260 It's a very fine and wonderful family. 537 00:33:31,802 --> 00:33:34,472 His father Lionel is just a marvelous man, 538 00:33:34,555 --> 00:33:37,141 and he is hurting as badly as anyone. 539 00:33:38,100 --> 00:33:43,272 I love him. I did not realize just how sick he was. 540 00:33:43,981 --> 00:33:47,026 And I will, as I always have, 541 00:33:47,109 --> 00:33:49,487 stand by him in my thoughts and prayers. 542 00:33:55,576 --> 00:33:58,037 -Detectives allowed him to smoke 543 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,831 and to have as much coffee as he wanted as well. 544 00:34:01,832 --> 00:34:04,043 It kept him calm and on track, 545 00:34:04,126 --> 00:34:07,922 and I think without those, we wouldn't have gotten all the story. 546 00:34:08,506 --> 00:34:11,801 Because he was willing to talk longer and longer 547 00:34:11,884 --> 00:34:14,720 as long as he could continue to have those two things. 548 00:34:15,387 --> 00:34:17,890 It's difficult dredging up these feelings 549 00:34:17,973 --> 00:34:19,558 and motivations, you know. 550 00:34:19,642 --> 00:34:22,978 I know it's real hard. If it gets too difficult, tell me. 551 00:34:23,521 --> 00:34:25,231 -You realize why… -Yes, it… it… 552 00:34:25,815 --> 00:34:28,109 Talking about it and analyzing it 553 00:34:29,151 --> 00:34:30,903 shows me just how, 554 00:34:30,986 --> 00:34:33,656 uh, warped my thinking was. 555 00:34:35,908 --> 00:34:38,494 My relationship with him, as it grew, 556 00:34:38,577 --> 00:34:41,455 um, he would be more and more willing 557 00:34:41,539 --> 00:34:45,292 to, um, expound on the nuances of each case, 558 00:34:45,376 --> 00:34:46,836 of each murder. 559 00:34:48,212 --> 00:34:51,340 There were times that I felt like a mother to him. 560 00:34:51,423 --> 00:34:54,426 There were times that I felt like… like he was my brother. 561 00:34:54,510 --> 00:34:57,596 There were times that I felt like he… I was his therapist. 562 00:34:59,473 --> 00:35:01,976 You ever try to develop a relationship? 563 00:35:02,059 --> 00:35:05,104 Uh, no. I can't say that I did. 564 00:35:05,187 --> 00:35:06,605 Why not? 565 00:35:06,689 --> 00:35:09,942 Well, it was because of the home situation. 566 00:35:10,025 --> 00:35:11,944 I couldn't carry on 567 00:35:12,027 --> 00:35:15,156 a long-term relationship where I was staying. 568 00:35:16,073 --> 00:35:21,120 Jeff's father suggested moving in with grandma, which he did. 569 00:35:21,704 --> 00:35:25,082 After I informed Katherine, his grandmother, 570 00:35:25,166 --> 00:35:28,085 about his activities and what he did, 571 00:35:28,169 --> 00:35:30,129 she… she broke down and cried. 572 00:35:30,754 --> 00:35:32,339 She didn't believe it. 573 00:35:32,423 --> 00:35:36,802 She said she didn't want to get involved in his activities. 574 00:35:39,263 --> 00:35:43,225 And she didn't want to know what was going on in the basement. 575 00:35:58,824 --> 00:36:00,826 I had moved out then, 576 00:36:00,910 --> 00:36:03,204 to here up in Wisconsin 577 00:36:03,287 --> 00:36:04,914 to help my grandma out. 578 00:36:05,915 --> 00:36:08,667 It was, "Well, why don't you go and move with Grandma?" 579 00:36:08,751 --> 00:36:13,297 "A place that would be healthy for you. She's getting older. She needs the help." 580 00:36:13,964 --> 00:36:16,800 "And start, you know, in a new city." 581 00:36:17,801 --> 00:36:20,429 Jeffrey told me he loved his grandmother very much. 582 00:36:23,057 --> 00:36:24,475 Jeffrey's grandmother 583 00:36:24,558 --> 00:36:27,937 was described by Jeffrey as a perfect grandmother. 584 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:29,772 South Side, Milwaukee. 585 00:36:30,648 --> 00:36:32,650 Religious, caring. 586 00:36:33,317 --> 00:36:34,818 A very, very nice person. 587 00:36:34,902 --> 00:36:38,948 And this is the environment in which Lionel Dahmer grew up in. 588 00:36:39,031 --> 00:36:41,825 She was very supportive, and she loved Jeff. 589 00:36:41,909 --> 00:36:45,120 It was very clear that he wasn't that close with his mom and dad. 590 00:36:46,664 --> 00:36:49,500 Grandma's house was in West Allis, a suburb of Milwaukee. 591 00:36:50,334 --> 00:36:53,045 Uh, I helped her with the yard work 592 00:36:53,128 --> 00:36:54,255 and various chores. 593 00:36:55,881 --> 00:36:59,260 When Jeffrey moved in, I don't think she put much demands on him. 594 00:36:59,927 --> 00:37:03,097 It isn't clear to me if she knew his sexuality. 595 00:37:03,889 --> 00:37:05,182 But Jeffrey was aware 596 00:37:05,266 --> 00:37:08,435 that had she known that, she would've been quite judgmental. 597 00:37:09,436 --> 00:37:11,021 At that time, 598 00:37:11,105 --> 00:37:13,649 coming out, it was completely different. 599 00:37:13,732 --> 00:37:17,695 That was a struggle for him. He told me. He said, "I don't like being gay." 600 00:37:21,573 --> 00:37:24,368 I really made a sincere effort 601 00:37:24,868 --> 00:37:27,788 to change the way I was living, 602 00:37:27,871 --> 00:37:29,331 to change my desires. 603 00:37:29,915 --> 00:37:33,002 To get rid of the, uh… 604 00:37:33,085 --> 00:37:36,588 homosexual, uh, feelings that I had. 605 00:37:37,131 --> 00:37:39,800 Any sinful thoughts. 606 00:37:41,176 --> 00:37:43,554 Started going to church with Grandma 607 00:37:43,637 --> 00:37:45,264 on a regular basis. 608 00:37:46,432 --> 00:37:48,600 And, uh, tried to stifle 609 00:37:48,684 --> 00:37:51,770 any sexual feelings that I had. 610 00:37:53,856 --> 00:37:57,526 I think that really, uh, you know, started to change him. 611 00:37:57,609 --> 00:37:59,570 He would read the Bible. 612 00:37:59,653 --> 00:38:03,407 They, you know, spent a lot of time together at dinners. 613 00:38:04,450 --> 00:38:07,619 My grandma was going to church every Sunday. 614 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,788 What denomination is she? 615 00:38:09,872 --> 00:38:11,040 Protestant. 616 00:38:14,084 --> 00:38:17,087 He was going to church. He was praying he would find some way 617 00:38:17,171 --> 00:38:21,425 to fight off these urges, these… these pathological sexual cravings. 618 00:38:21,508 --> 00:38:23,010 It was during that time period 619 00:38:23,093 --> 00:38:26,347 that he tried to create surrogates to not take a… a human life. 620 00:38:29,683 --> 00:38:32,811 I was walking around Southridge 621 00:38:33,604 --> 00:38:35,606 and, uh, saw this mannequin 622 00:38:35,689 --> 00:38:38,067 that sort of caught my eye. 623 00:38:38,150 --> 00:38:40,861 I wanted that mannequin, so I… 624 00:38:42,446 --> 00:38:43,947 went in the store. 625 00:38:44,031 --> 00:38:45,449 There's nobody in there. 626 00:38:45,532 --> 00:38:47,993 Stayed there until closing time. 627 00:38:48,077 --> 00:38:50,371 -And no alarms went off? -No, nothing. 628 00:38:50,454 --> 00:38:52,247 I got the mannequin undressed, 629 00:38:52,331 --> 00:38:53,582 got a taxi back home, 630 00:38:53,665 --> 00:38:56,251 and stored it in the garage 631 00:38:56,335 --> 00:38:58,295 at, uh, Grandma's house. 632 00:38:58,921 --> 00:39:01,382 And I used to play around with it after… 633 00:39:02,966 --> 00:39:05,052 dressing it up and undressing it. 634 00:39:06,970 --> 00:39:08,597 Pretending it was real. 635 00:39:11,183 --> 00:39:14,686 He did use it to lie with it and masturbate, 636 00:39:14,770 --> 00:39:17,856 which wasn't as good as a person. 637 00:39:17,940 --> 00:39:19,483 He found it disappointing. 638 00:39:20,442 --> 00:39:23,987 A faceless mannequin from a department store didn't cut it for him. 639 00:39:25,364 --> 00:39:28,867 After a week or two, Grandma would stumble across it. 640 00:39:28,951 --> 00:39:32,413 She was hanging up some clothes that she'd washed for me. 641 00:39:32,496 --> 00:39:34,998 -She did? -Yeah. She asked me what was it. 642 00:39:35,082 --> 00:39:36,375 Where did I get it. 643 00:39:36,458 --> 00:39:40,045 And I gave her some story that I picked it up at… 644 00:39:40,129 --> 00:39:42,714 They had extra mannequins that they were selling. 645 00:39:42,798 --> 00:39:46,427 I think she called Dad, so I figured I better get rid of it. 646 00:39:46,510 --> 00:39:49,096 Took it down to the basement and, uh, 647 00:39:49,179 --> 00:39:52,474 smashed it up, and threw it out in the garbage. 648 00:40:01,442 --> 00:40:03,902 I've seen about 20 serial killers. 649 00:40:04,611 --> 00:40:07,030 Not all of them sexual but most. 650 00:40:07,698 --> 00:40:10,451 And I've seen a number of mass murderers, 651 00:40:10,534 --> 00:40:13,954 and I was approached by the district attorney's office 652 00:40:14,037 --> 00:40:15,664 to evaluate Mr. Dahmer. 653 00:40:16,582 --> 00:40:20,919 Saw him for three days and later testified at his trial. 654 00:40:21,003 --> 00:40:24,339 The extraordinary thing in comparing Jeffrey Dahmer 655 00:40:24,423 --> 00:40:29,303 to other serial killers I've interviewed is how he lacked defensiveness about it. 656 00:40:29,887 --> 00:40:33,807 He wasn't, as far as I could tell, trying to hide anything from me. 657 00:40:33,891 --> 00:40:38,103 I do think that he sought to find another solution for a time. 658 00:40:38,687 --> 00:40:43,233 But when Dahmer was trying to avoid alcohol, 659 00:40:43,734 --> 00:40:47,196 uh, trying to avoid gay sex 660 00:40:47,279 --> 00:40:50,491 because of his religious inhibitions against it, 661 00:40:51,992 --> 00:40:55,662 he had what was for him an unprecedented experience 662 00:40:55,746 --> 00:40:59,333 of a man dropping a note in the library, 663 00:40:59,416 --> 00:41:02,002 offering him a blow job in the bathroom. 664 00:41:03,587 --> 00:41:06,423 I was in the West Allis library… 665 00:41:07,674 --> 00:41:10,135 …just sitting in a chair, reading a book. 666 00:41:11,178 --> 00:41:13,680 It was the last thing I expected, you know? 667 00:41:14,515 --> 00:41:18,227 I just laughed it off to myself. I thought, uh, 668 00:41:18,310 --> 00:41:21,730 "That's an awful feeble, 669 00:41:21,813 --> 00:41:24,858 uh, attempt to get me to stumble," 670 00:41:25,484 --> 00:41:26,485 you know? 671 00:41:27,027 --> 00:41:29,238 I never saw his face or anything. 672 00:41:31,365 --> 00:41:34,409 You'd put the compulsion to rest when you went to church with Grandma, 673 00:41:34,493 --> 00:41:36,828 and it came back stronger, didn't it? 674 00:41:37,871 --> 00:41:40,040 That's what triggered it, I guess. 675 00:41:42,042 --> 00:41:46,421 This made him begin thinking about gay sex much more 676 00:41:46,964 --> 00:41:49,216 and realizing he could go get it. 677 00:41:50,592 --> 00:41:54,137 So in that sense, it did open the world to him. 678 00:41:54,930 --> 00:41:58,559 And there came a time when he threw caution to the winds. 679 00:42:04,565 --> 00:42:06,650 Jeffrey Dahmer got a job. 680 00:42:07,859 --> 00:42:09,945 He was a mixer 681 00:42:10,028 --> 00:42:12,447 at the Ambrosia chocolate factory. 682 00:42:13,282 --> 00:42:15,075 He worked the night shifts. 683 00:42:15,659 --> 00:42:19,246 It was a job that enabled him 684 00:42:19,329 --> 00:42:21,373 to go out on the weekends. 685 00:42:22,499 --> 00:42:25,502 I at least had a job that paid halfway decent. 686 00:42:26,003 --> 00:42:28,088 I could look forward to free time. 687 00:42:28,171 --> 00:42:29,381 Privacy. 688 00:42:31,216 --> 00:42:32,968 Started drinking again, 689 00:42:33,927 --> 00:42:35,470 going to the bookstores. 690 00:42:36,430 --> 00:42:37,514 Uh… 691 00:42:38,140 --> 00:42:41,935 Found out where the gay bars were and started going to them. 692 00:42:42,728 --> 00:42:45,814 What I was looking for was some live companionship. 693 00:42:46,315 --> 00:42:48,191 Someone to spend the night with. 694 00:42:48,275 --> 00:42:51,987 A man I had complete control over, 695 00:42:52,571 --> 00:42:55,073 and to be able to do with as I pleased. 696 00:42:55,657 --> 00:42:57,409 Something real, 697 00:42:57,492 --> 00:43:00,495 uh, instead of fake like the mannequin. 698 00:43:00,579 --> 00:43:02,164 So that was my fantasy. 699 00:43:04,124 --> 00:43:07,252 Little by little, I started falling away… 700 00:43:12,174 --> 00:43:15,135 I just, uh, gave up trying to resist. 701 00:43:18,305 --> 00:43:22,184 I knew Jeffrey Dahmer and several of his victims. 702 00:43:23,435 --> 00:43:25,687 After this all came out, 703 00:43:25,771 --> 00:43:29,691 several people in the bars said, "I remember him. I remember him." 704 00:43:29,775 --> 00:43:32,694 Well, of course. We all did. Milwaukee's only this big. 705 00:43:36,615 --> 00:43:38,283 The 1980s. 706 00:43:39,242 --> 00:43:42,788 Gay life was really up-and-coming 707 00:43:42,871 --> 00:43:44,373 in Milwaukee. 708 00:43:45,374 --> 00:43:47,292 It wasn't as exclusive 709 00:43:47,376 --> 00:43:49,961 as Chicago and New York and LA, 710 00:43:50,587 --> 00:43:52,964 but for a city like Milwaukee, 711 00:43:53,799 --> 00:43:54,966 we had a good time. 712 00:43:55,050 --> 00:43:56,426 We had a ball. 713 00:43:59,054 --> 00:44:01,682 You could go out almost any night, 714 00:44:01,765 --> 00:44:04,226 and there'd be something going on somewhere. 715 00:44:05,477 --> 00:44:07,187 You could be yourself. 716 00:44:07,270 --> 00:44:09,106 You had freedom. 717 00:44:10,273 --> 00:44:12,567 So you were comfortable. 718 00:44:12,651 --> 00:44:16,113 I mean, we'd get dressed up and go to the bar. 719 00:44:17,197 --> 00:44:19,950 The bars had beautiful music. 720 00:44:20,534 --> 00:44:22,536 People always wanted to dance. 721 00:44:24,496 --> 00:44:28,041 The area for the gay bars pretty much was centrally located. 722 00:44:28,667 --> 00:44:33,380 They were all within, I'd say, an eight, nine-block radius of each other. 723 00:44:34,965 --> 00:44:37,092 You could easily walk from place to place. 724 00:44:38,593 --> 00:44:43,056 We were all just coming into who we are. 725 00:44:43,890 --> 00:44:45,642 Accepting ourselves. 726 00:44:47,185 --> 00:44:50,939 A lot of those people were beautiful souls. 727 00:44:59,406 --> 00:45:01,825 I had lived in Milwaukee my entire life 728 00:45:01,908 --> 00:45:06,079 and was involved in the community from an early age. 729 00:45:06,163 --> 00:45:09,374 During that time, I was also a columnist and journalist 730 00:45:09,458 --> 00:45:10,792 in the Milwaukee area. 731 00:45:12,210 --> 00:45:14,212 Dahmer operating in this space, 732 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,965 he carefully selected these places. 733 00:45:17,048 --> 00:45:19,384 The demographics, the customer base, 734 00:45:19,468 --> 00:45:20,969 the locations. 735 00:45:21,052 --> 00:45:22,763 These were not brightly lit streets. 736 00:45:22,846 --> 00:45:26,391 These were not places where people would park their car and feel safe. 737 00:45:26,933 --> 00:45:30,228 That lack of transparency really made it easy 738 00:45:30,312 --> 00:45:34,232 for someone like Dahmer to be a predator in those spaces 739 00:45:34,316 --> 00:45:38,028 because no one knew what these people's real names were in the first place. 740 00:45:38,111 --> 00:45:41,782 Gay men often rely on the cover of darkness to hide their second life 741 00:45:41,865 --> 00:45:44,493 from a good job, wife and kids. 742 00:45:44,576 --> 00:45:48,580 The president of Gay People's Union says the relationship between homosexual men 743 00:45:48,663 --> 00:45:50,499 is often shrouded by secrecy. 744 00:45:52,834 --> 00:45:55,712 A long-running tradition of the gay community 745 00:45:55,796 --> 00:45:57,047 was the bathhouse. 746 00:45:59,549 --> 00:46:01,009 By the 1970s and 1980s, 747 00:46:01,092 --> 00:46:04,179 they were really strictly being used as social spaces 748 00:46:04,262 --> 00:46:06,515 for gay men to meet each other for sex. 749 00:46:08,141 --> 00:46:11,186 You could go to the bathhouse and get just 750 00:46:11,978 --> 00:46:15,524 as naked as you were born into the world, and walk around freely. 751 00:46:16,024 --> 00:46:18,318 You see somebody you want, and you do what you do. 752 00:46:18,401 --> 00:46:20,612 Because it was anonymous. 753 00:46:20,695 --> 00:46:24,699 You know, you didn't have to know them. People were just trying to have sex. 754 00:46:26,243 --> 00:46:30,539 In Milwaukee, the most popular bathhouse was called Club Baths. 755 00:46:32,207 --> 00:46:35,460 It was a second floor, only accessible by the alley. 756 00:46:35,544 --> 00:46:39,005 Um, unfortunately, it was also a popular place with Jeffrey Dahmer. 757 00:46:41,091 --> 00:46:44,261 He'd meet men in bathhouses and have sexual activities with them. 758 00:46:44,344 --> 00:46:46,972 However, Dahmer didn't wanna submit to anybody. 759 00:46:47,472 --> 00:46:49,766 Jeffrey wanted to be completely in charge. 760 00:46:50,267 --> 00:46:53,436 So Dahmer started bringing drugs into the bathhouses. 761 00:46:54,563 --> 00:46:56,731 What sleeping pills did you use? 762 00:46:56,815 --> 00:46:58,108 Uh, Halcion. 763 00:46:58,191 --> 00:47:00,318 Why did you get that prescription? 764 00:47:01,987 --> 00:47:03,697 For trouble sleeping. 765 00:47:03,780 --> 00:47:05,115 I worked third shift. 766 00:47:06,283 --> 00:47:08,410 That gave you a feeling of control? 767 00:47:08,493 --> 00:47:09,452 Uh… 768 00:47:10,453 --> 00:47:12,706 Well, I could keep them there longer. 769 00:47:13,248 --> 00:47:15,917 I could, uh, just lay around with them 770 00:47:16,001 --> 00:47:19,838 without feeling pressure to do anything that they wanted to do. 771 00:47:20,338 --> 00:47:21,631 Uh… 772 00:47:22,799 --> 00:47:24,551 There just wouldn't be any… 773 00:47:24,634 --> 00:47:27,053 They wouldn't make any demands on me. 774 00:47:27,137 --> 00:47:30,682 Uh, I could just enjoy them the way I wanted to. 775 00:47:32,142 --> 00:47:35,312 Did you think about at all how they might have felt? 776 00:47:35,395 --> 00:47:38,815 Yeah, I think I did, but at that point I didn't much care. 777 00:47:38,899 --> 00:47:41,484 I just wanted to do what I wanted. 778 00:47:41,568 --> 00:47:43,486 So I didn't care. 779 00:47:45,155 --> 00:47:48,533 That solved his problem of not wanting people to leave, 780 00:47:48,617 --> 00:47:52,579 and to be able to lie together for a prolonged period, 781 00:47:52,662 --> 00:47:55,832 which was a primary wish he had. 782 00:47:55,916 --> 00:47:58,251 These people were not conscious. There weren't mobile. 783 00:47:58,335 --> 00:47:59,878 They weren't able to protect themselves. 784 00:47:59,961 --> 00:48:04,132 And they're engaging in sexual acts against their wills. 785 00:48:05,967 --> 00:48:08,303 At one point, he over-drugged someone, 786 00:48:08,386 --> 00:48:10,889 and when the guy with difficulty waking him up, 787 00:48:10,972 --> 00:48:13,183 the bath owner, had to summon medical help. 788 00:48:18,605 --> 00:48:21,733 And thereafter the word got out, "Don't let Dahmer in your bathhouse." 789 00:48:23,652 --> 00:48:27,739 The police did not investigate these cases as rape, 790 00:48:27,822 --> 00:48:29,532 or sexual assault, 791 00:48:29,616 --> 00:48:31,618 or disorderly conduct even. 792 00:48:31,701 --> 00:48:34,704 They essentially just told the bathhouse operator 793 00:48:34,788 --> 00:48:38,833 to notify them if he returned, and keep him off the property. 794 00:48:39,376 --> 00:48:44,172 I don't think they accepted the fact that a man could be raped. 795 00:48:45,548 --> 00:48:49,386 He was a marked man. He wasn't able to go there anymore. 796 00:48:51,638 --> 00:48:53,848 Did any of that satisfy you? 797 00:48:53,932 --> 00:48:56,559 As far as really getting any true satisfaction? 798 00:48:56,643 --> 00:48:57,519 It didn't. 799 00:48:58,395 --> 00:49:01,189 I didn't have control over them. I… 800 00:49:02,774 --> 00:49:05,777 I wanted all of them, you know. 801 00:49:05,860 --> 00:49:08,363 And, uh, couldn't get it that way. 802 00:49:19,249 --> 00:49:21,418 Jeffrey was out one night, 803 00:49:22,627 --> 00:49:25,046 and he met Steven Tuomi. 804 00:49:25,588 --> 00:49:28,008 And he wanted to spend a night with him, 805 00:49:28,591 --> 00:49:31,761 and it was too difficult at his grandmother's house. 806 00:49:32,762 --> 00:49:36,182 So they took a room over at the Ambassador Hotel. 807 00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:48,236 And drank a great deal. 808 00:49:50,530 --> 00:49:52,490 And they had a night together. 809 00:50:01,166 --> 00:50:02,917 The following morning, 810 00:50:03,001 --> 00:50:05,336 Jeff ended up waking up 811 00:50:06,004 --> 00:50:07,547 after being in a blackout. 812 00:50:08,423 --> 00:50:10,300 You totally blacked out? 813 00:50:10,383 --> 00:50:11,217 Yeah. 814 00:50:11,301 --> 00:50:12,844 Had no idea you'd done anything? 815 00:50:12,927 --> 00:50:15,305 No. Not until I woke up in the morning. 816 00:50:15,388 --> 00:50:16,848 I couldn't believe it. 817 00:50:17,432 --> 00:50:19,684 His hands were bloody. The sheets were bloody. 818 00:50:19,768 --> 00:50:21,770 This guy's face was bloody. 819 00:50:23,188 --> 00:50:25,857 Shocked. Uh… 820 00:50:26,483 --> 00:50:27,525 Panicked. 821 00:50:28,401 --> 00:50:29,694 And, uh… 822 00:50:30,862 --> 00:50:32,322 very sorry that it happened 823 00:50:32,405 --> 00:50:35,992 because I had no intention of anything like that happening. 824 00:50:36,076 --> 00:50:38,119 How'd you know he was dead? You check his pulse? 825 00:50:38,203 --> 00:50:39,496 I was afraid. No. 826 00:50:40,330 --> 00:50:42,874 And there was blood coming out of the mouth. 827 00:50:43,458 --> 00:50:47,921 Apparently, I had beaten him with my fists on the chest. 828 00:50:50,799 --> 00:50:54,302 There's blood everywhere. He said he was in an alcoholic blackout. 829 00:50:56,096 --> 00:50:57,639 It was a surprise to him. 830 00:50:58,765 --> 00:51:01,768 So there wasn't an actual intent. It wasn't a fantasy. 831 00:51:02,936 --> 00:51:05,480 But what his deepest desire was still came out. 832 00:51:08,108 --> 00:51:09,651 It's clear he hadn't planned it 833 00:51:09,734 --> 00:51:12,028 because he signed into the hotel for one day, 834 00:51:12,112 --> 00:51:16,074 and he had to sign in for a second day to buy some time to get rid of the body. 835 00:51:17,742 --> 00:51:20,578 He went out and went to a luggage store, 836 00:51:20,662 --> 00:51:23,706 and got a big trunk, and brought it into the hotel. 837 00:51:24,707 --> 00:51:28,128 And he took the trunk up to his room 838 00:51:28,211 --> 00:51:31,381 and got Mr. Tuomi into the trunk. 839 00:51:31,464 --> 00:51:34,509 He then had a cab driver come and pick him up. 840 00:51:40,515 --> 00:51:42,475 Dahmer said the cab driver even said, 841 00:51:42,559 --> 00:51:45,353 "You must have a dead body in here." The case was so heavy. 842 00:51:46,688 --> 00:51:50,483 He then took Steven Tuomi's body back to the grandmother's house 843 00:51:51,109 --> 00:51:53,236 and secretly disposed of his body. 844 00:51:54,487 --> 00:51:57,323 He cut off the parts of the body, put it into Hefty bags, 845 00:51:57,407 --> 00:51:58,867 and threw it in the dumpster. 846 00:52:11,087 --> 00:52:13,214 Tuomi grew up in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, 847 00:52:13,298 --> 00:52:16,634 in the small town of Ontonagon, where most everyone knew him. 848 00:52:16,718 --> 00:52:20,180 And he was a real quiet kid, and that's how I knew him. 849 00:52:20,263 --> 00:52:22,682 He was real quiet and never bothered anybody. 850 00:52:22,765 --> 00:52:27,020 Steven Tuomi moved to Milwaukee sometime in the mid-1980s 851 00:52:27,103 --> 00:52:29,689 and took up working as a short-order cook. 852 00:52:29,772 --> 00:52:33,693 The last time anyone saw him was in the fall of 1987. 853 00:52:34,736 --> 00:52:38,364 After his confession, I believed what Dahmer said 854 00:52:38,448 --> 00:52:42,076 because he had no reason not to tell us the truth. 855 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,288 He had no reason to tell us that was a victim that he killed, 856 00:52:45,371 --> 00:52:49,375 because that was one of the victims that we had a little evidence of. 857 00:52:49,459 --> 00:52:53,463 It was Dahmer's statement and putting together in great detail. 858 00:52:54,255 --> 00:52:58,509 There's no reason not to believe factual information that Dahmer gave us. 859 00:52:59,302 --> 00:53:03,389 After his confession, I met with the family in Upper Michigan. 860 00:53:04,933 --> 00:53:09,812 Their son went down to Milwaukee to get work in a more urban area. 861 00:53:09,896 --> 00:53:13,483 To try to find out what he wanted to do with his life. 862 00:53:13,566 --> 00:53:15,068 The family never sees him again. 863 00:53:17,612 --> 00:53:20,907 And I think they had a very difficult time accepting it. 864 00:53:23,243 --> 00:53:26,788 How did you feel after that time at the Ambassador? 865 00:53:27,580 --> 00:53:28,623 Horrified… 866 00:53:29,666 --> 00:53:32,085 that it started again, you know. 867 00:53:32,168 --> 00:53:36,381 And I never wanted to have anything like that ever happen again. 868 00:53:37,048 --> 00:53:41,052 How did you feel that it came forth even though you were unconscious? 869 00:53:42,053 --> 00:53:44,264 Uh, confused. 870 00:53:45,431 --> 00:53:47,809 Did you feel you'd started to lose control? 871 00:53:47,892 --> 00:53:49,477 Yeah, I knew I had. Yeah. 872 00:53:51,562 --> 00:53:54,649 That was the first slaying here. It went from 1978, 873 00:53:54,732 --> 00:53:57,652 the slaying of Steven Hicks, to November of 1987, 874 00:53:57,735 --> 00:53:59,445 the slaying of Steven Tuomi. 875 00:53:59,529 --> 00:54:02,782 The first killing had been by the time when he was 18 years old. 876 00:54:03,825 --> 00:54:06,077 He then went for nine years without killing. 877 00:54:06,661 --> 00:54:09,163 The Ambassador did something.. 878 00:54:09,247 --> 00:54:10,790 It triggered something 879 00:54:12,583 --> 00:54:14,335 I wanted more. 880 00:54:14,419 --> 00:54:17,547 I don't know what it triggered, but it triggered something. 881 00:54:17,630 --> 00:54:20,717 The Tuomi murder was a turning point for him. 882 00:54:21,467 --> 00:54:25,346 He finally decided, "I'm losing this fight with myself." 883 00:54:25,430 --> 00:54:27,307 "I can't control it any longer." 884 00:54:27,390 --> 00:54:30,393 It just gave me a sick pleasure. 885 00:54:30,476 --> 00:54:33,646 It dominated my thoughts, doing these things. 886 00:54:35,356 --> 00:54:38,985 The danger could be someone who looks just like your next door neighbor. 887 00:54:39,068 --> 00:54:43,364 He passed on the street as a very normal person. 888 00:54:43,448 --> 00:54:45,325 He didn't look scary. 889 00:54:45,408 --> 00:54:47,952 There's a serial slayer in Milwaukee. 890 00:54:48,036 --> 00:54:50,163 No one except Dahmer 891 00:54:50,246 --> 00:54:53,958 knew that a serial slayer was loose in our city. 892 00:54:54,042 --> 00:54:57,587 The police just didn't know. Nobody in the community knew. 893 00:54:58,338 --> 00:55:01,924 After years of trying to resist these urges, he just gave up. 894 00:55:02,008 --> 00:55:05,470 Became like a killing machine who was totally out of control. 895 00:55:06,054 --> 00:55:09,265 The compulsion was stronger than any… anything else. 896 00:55:12,185 --> 00:55:15,480 It was a single-minded, driving force. 897 00:55:17,023 --> 00:55:17,982 My… 898 00:55:18,566 --> 00:55:20,526 desires, uh, were 899 00:55:21,569 --> 00:55:23,196 bestial, obviously.