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[eerie music playing]
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[woman] I was a young lawyer at the time.
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I was in my twenties.
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I just moved to Milwaukee.
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And a woman living alone,
and I didn't know a lot of people.
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[telephone ringing]
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I get this call from Jerry Boyle, my boss.
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He said, "Look, we've got this new case,
and it's a big one."
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"I need you to go down
to the police administration building."
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[car engine revving]
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[woman] Jerry Boyle indicated, he said,
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"This is somebody
I had represented in the past."
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"He's a nice man. Don't worry,
he won't bite your head off."
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I went down immediately
as he had requested
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to see Jeffrey Dahmer.
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It's my first job.
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[ominous music playing]
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[woman] When I first went in to see him,
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it was a very small interview room.
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There was Jeff, um,
sitting in the corner of the table.
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I was incredibly nervous
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because this was something
I felt was way over my head.
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[reporter 1]
Even veteran police officers say
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this is among the strangest
murder scenes they've witnessed.
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The country has been spellbound
by the horrifying story of Jeffrey Dahmer.
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[reporter 2] Murder, mutilation,
even cannibalism.
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[reporter 3] Shock and horror
as police carry out a large cooking kettle
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in the biggest and most gruesome
mass murder case in Milwaukee history.
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I felt like Clarice Starling
in Silence of the Lambs.
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He, uh… He was very polite.
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I was somewhat surprised, I guess,
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at how, uh, cordial Jeff was.
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In order to be a good defense attorney,
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you have to be nonjudgmental
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and develop a trust.
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And, uh, he called me Wendy.
I called him Jeff.
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[plays from recorder] This is okay, Jeff.
I mean, don't be embarrassed about it.
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Am I… Am I making you feel uncomfortable?
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[Jeffrey] No. It has to be faced, so…
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It's just so bizarre, isn't it?
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It's not… It's not easy to talk about.
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It's something that I've kept
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buried within myself for many years,
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and it's…
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Yeah.
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It's like trying to pull up
a two-ton stone out of a well.
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[Wendy] I don't think there's anything
that can prepare anybody
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for that kind of carnage.
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[music builds to climax]
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[unsettling theme music playing]
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[tape rolling]
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[clicks]
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[ominous music playing]
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[helicopter whirring]
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[man] It was a quiet night.
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You know, one of those summer nights
where it was steamy.
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I was a television reporter, and I was
among the first people on the scene
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at Dahmer's apartment
the night he was arrested.
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When I arrived, just seeing
the faces of the police officers,
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that's when I realized that
something big was happening there.
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I ran into a police officer
that I had known.
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Bobby Rao was his name.
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And I said, "Come on, Bobby.
Is this for real?"
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He looked at me, shook his head and said,
"You bet. This is for real."
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[reporter] Lt. Roosevelt Harrell.
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[Roosevelt] We're investigating a homicide
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which occurred in the apartment building
in 900 block of North 25th Street.
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We do have, uh, one person in custody.
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There's a strong possibility
there might be additional homicides, uh,
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that we're looking into
that this individual might be involved in.
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The police officer assigned to the door
at the Oxford Apartments
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was a guy I knew.
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And we asked, begged him,
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"Could we get in? Could we take pictures
inside Dahmer's apartment?"
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He shook his head.
"You take pictures, I'll lose my job."
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But he said, "You can look in.
As long as you don't cross the threshold."
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So we went to the door,
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held onto the frame and leaned forward,
and looked inside the apartment.
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I remember it being not memorable
for a lot of reasons.
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There was a rolled-up carpet.
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A kitchen to the left.
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There was a bedroom off to the right
and a bathroom.
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But the one thing that stood out
more than anything else
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was a creepy lava lamp that was going.
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The blob going up and down.
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Such an eerie feeling
about the… the apartment.
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The night the Dahmer story broke,
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I was a reporter
at the Milwaukee Sentinel at the time.
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And I'm like the only reporter there
because it was late.
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Tina Burnside,
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who was, uh, a night cops reporter, calls.
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[phone ringing]
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She said, "James, I need you
to take this down very carefully."
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It's the pressure of having an editor
breathing over your shoulder saying,
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"I need that story now."
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I hit "send" to the night editor.
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He edits it, sends it off.
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I remember him saying at the time,
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"This is gonna be the biggest story
to ever hit the city of Milwaukee."
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[tense music playing]
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I was Chief Prosecutor of Milwaukee
many years ago
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before I became a defense lawyer.
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So I've been on both sides of the fence.
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I got a phone call,
a fellow from our main TV station.
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"Wanna talk to you
about a client of yours."
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I said, "Who's that?"
He said, "Jeffrey Dahmer."
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"We think he's a homicidal maniac."
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I had represented him in 1988
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for some sex crime.
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And I said, "Hold that thought.
I… I gotta call his father."
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I called Lionel Dahmer,
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and I told him
what the reporter had told me.
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I told him that I'd get somebody
to find out what's going on.
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I called Wendy Patrickus,
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and Wendy was available.
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[Wendy] First person that they brought me
in to see was Detective Murphy.
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At that point, the entire interrogation
was controlled by the detectives.
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[man] When I first met Dahmer,
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all he said to me is,
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"Why don't you just shoot me now
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for what I did?"
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And I sat down with him,
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reassured him
that whatever he could tell me
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wouldn't reflect on him, or it wouldn't
make me like him or dislike him anymore.
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And subsequently
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put the confession on paper.
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I was a lieutenant
assigned to the homicide unit.
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Dennis Murphy and Pat Kennedy
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were the primary people
that interviewed Dahmer.
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In fact, pretty much every day
that was their job.
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The way he was able to recall
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every detail of these homicides.
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It was incredible.
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[Wendy] As I recall,
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Jeff was a little drunk at the time.
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I did ask him why he was telling
the police everything,
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why he was rendering a confession.
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And he said, "Wendy,
they found so much in my apartment."
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"You know, the gigs up. So I would prefer
to continue talking with them."
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He already had his mind made up.
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At that point I had to say,
"Jeff. I will honor that."
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[Boyle] He had already confessed.
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So I knew Dahmer didn't have a defense.
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So I said to him,
"What do you want me to do?"
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He said, "I wanna know
why I am what I am."
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So I told him,
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"I can get a good psychiatrist
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to come and talk to you,
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and plead you not guilty
by reason of mental illness."
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"Insanity."
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"But I'd need doctors
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to tell me they can support that."
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The real job was to get enough information
to give to the doctors
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to be able to answer their questions.
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The question was
whether he was sane or insane.
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The next several months,
I'd spend considerable time with him,
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talking about each victim
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and, um, gathering as much information
as possible.
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[indistinct sound on tape]
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[Wendy, from playing recorder]
Jeff, tell me what you were thinking.
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[Jeffrey] I had wondered
why I was compelled
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to do all the murders.
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What I was searching for
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that would, uh,
fill the emptiness that I felt.
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The murdering someone
and… and disposing of them right away
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gives no great lasting pleasure
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or a feeling of fulfillment.
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And yet I still felt the compulsion
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to do it throughout these years.
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[suspenseful music playing]
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[Wendy] Jeff wanting to identify
all the victims,
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this was very unique
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in somebody who is a serial killer,
a true serial killer.
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Didn't deny it.
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And said, "Yes, I killed and I killed."
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"This is how I killed. And this was why."
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[Jeffrey playing from tape recorder]
I didn't seem to have
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the normal feelings of empathy.
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[Wendy] Did you ever think to yourself,
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"Why don't I have feelings
that normal people have?"
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[Jeffrey] I did wonder about it.
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It started with fantasies, fantasizing.
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It always started with fantasizing,
and then
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eventually it seemed
the fantasies, uh, came to be.
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He took his fantasy world
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to degrees and places that
most of us would never even conceive of.
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I interviewed Jeffrey Dahmer
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at the request
of defense attorney Jerry Boyle.
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I'd been asked if there was,
in my view, a defense of insanity here.
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I had a 30-year career in Milwaukee
as a forensic psychologist,
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and Dahmer's case came mid-career for me.
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There were others that followed,
but nothing like this.
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[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
What triggered it all?
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I wish I could give you
a good, straightforward answer on that.
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If there's any area
that is, uh, to really blame,
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it's my own twisted thinking. I haven't
been thinking normally for years.
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[uneasy music builds to climax]
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[tape rolling]
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Jeffrey was more reserved
at talking about his childhood.
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There were pictures I saw of him
when he was younger with his dad Lionel,
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and, you know, it seemed very normal.
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You know,
they're playing catch with the ball.
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But his father was gone a lot.
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He's a scientist, and, you know,
he was furthering his own education.
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But Jeff was adamant
that there wasn't any huge traumas
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that would have caused him
to do these things.
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Wasn't like he was
sexually abused or beaten.
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The one thing that Jeffrey
did tell me and Jerry Boyle
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about his childhood
that really affected him
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was this, uh, constant bickering
between his parents.
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[Boyle plays from recorder]
What was the problem growing up
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between your mom and dad?
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[Jeffrey] Ugh!
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They just couldn't seem to get along,
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especially on my mom's side.
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[Boyle] Any violence?
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[Jeffrey] Just the slapping and hitting.
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-[Boyle] Who was hitting who?
-[Jeffrey] Um, Mom hitting Dad.
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[Boyle] Whose side were you on?
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[Jeffrey] I was trying
not to be on anyone's side.
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[Boyle] I had inquired
into the family history
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on both sides
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to see if there was any insanity here,
any peculiar things
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about those family members
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that might give us an insight
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as to how Dahmer became what he became.
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And I didn't find anything
on Lionel Dahmer's side.
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And on Joyce's side,
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I think there was
some alcoholism in her family.
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But there's alcoholism
in a lot of families.
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So it didn't mean anything to me.
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Jeffrey had, uh, a brother,
who was born when Jeffrey was about six.
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David.
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[uneasy music playing]
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[Wendy] All attention then
was given to his younger brother.
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So he was already alone a lot.
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[Eric Tyson]
When Jeff and I were growing up,
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I don't think he had
a large group of friends.
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00:14:52,976 --> 00:14:56,313
I never really saw other people come over.
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It was basically Jeff and… and myself.
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Our driveways were directly
across the street from each other,
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so we could take our bicycles
and zoom right across the street,
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or just play ball, go sledding.
244
00:15:10,619 --> 00:15:12,537
[Dr. Smail] His father was quite concerned
245
00:15:12,621 --> 00:15:15,582
that Jeffrey did not do well in school.
246
00:15:15,666 --> 00:15:17,501
Didn't have very many friends.
247
00:15:17,584 --> 00:15:19,878
Never had any contact with girls.
248
00:15:21,338 --> 00:15:24,049
[Wendy playing from recorder] How long
had you known you're homosexual?
249
00:15:24,132 --> 00:15:26,969
[Jeffrey] Uh, since I was 13, I'd say.
250
00:15:28,011 --> 00:15:31,682
[Smail] Jeffrey became aware
of his sexuality
251
00:15:31,765 --> 00:15:33,767
about the time he reached puberty,
252
00:15:33,850 --> 00:15:35,811
which is what you would expect.
253
00:15:37,020 --> 00:15:39,815
He knew that it would be contrary
254
00:15:39,898 --> 00:15:42,734
to the wishes of his father and mother.
255
00:15:43,402 --> 00:15:45,696
[Wendy] And it was about the time
that he did
256
00:15:45,779 --> 00:15:48,740
some sexual experimentation
with another boy in the neighborhood.
257
00:15:50,742 --> 00:15:53,662
-[playing from recorder] What did you do?
[Jeffrey] Just kissing.
258
00:15:54,204 --> 00:15:55,706
Laying together,
259
00:15:55,789 --> 00:15:57,124
in the tree house.
260
00:15:57,874 --> 00:15:59,918
I was about 14 or 15.
261
00:16:00,836 --> 00:16:02,546
And that was consensual.
262
00:16:04,423 --> 00:16:09,136
As he got older,
Jeffrey became walled up emotionally
263
00:16:09,219 --> 00:16:11,221
from his peers, his teachers,
264
00:16:11,304 --> 00:16:13,724
childhood friends, even his parents.
265
00:16:17,394 --> 00:16:20,564
[man] I served as the elected
District Attorney of Milwaukee County
266
00:16:20,647 --> 00:16:23,066
during the years of Dahmer's murders.
267
00:16:23,150 --> 00:16:25,777
I was also the prosecutor
of the case itself.
268
00:16:25,861 --> 00:16:28,155
I was the attorney in court
prosecuting him.
269
00:16:32,117 --> 00:16:34,036
By the time he was a senior
in high school,
270
00:16:34,119 --> 00:16:37,122
he started having fantasies.
Sexual fantasies.
271
00:16:37,205 --> 00:16:39,624
One of those was having sex with a person
272
00:16:39,708 --> 00:16:42,127
who was, in effect,
completely submissive to him.
273
00:16:42,210 --> 00:16:45,088
To violently force someone
to submit to him.
274
00:16:45,589 --> 00:16:48,008
[Wendy plays from recorder]
When was the first time you thought
275
00:16:48,091 --> 00:16:49,551
about doing these things to a person?
276
00:16:50,052 --> 00:16:50,969
[Jeffrey] Uh…
277
00:16:51,678 --> 00:16:53,680
-[Wendy] I mean, just fantasy.
-[Jeffrey] Yeah.
278
00:16:54,347 --> 00:16:57,142
Probably around when I was 18.
279
00:16:59,561 --> 00:17:02,689
He fantasized about a jogger
that came by frequently.
280
00:17:03,774 --> 00:17:07,486
He wondered what that person
would look like without a shirt on.
281
00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,698
He wanted to have sex with that young man,
was drawn to that man to have sex.
282
00:17:12,449 --> 00:17:14,659
But he didn't know how to approach it
or what to do.
283
00:17:14,743 --> 00:17:18,205
So he decided he would
knock him unconscious in the woods
284
00:17:18,288 --> 00:17:20,624
and have sex with him
while he was unconscious.
285
00:17:21,333 --> 00:17:23,168
[Dr. Smail]
It wasn't an object to kill him.
286
00:17:23,251 --> 00:17:27,339
It was an object to touch, cuddle,
explore the body.
287
00:17:27,422 --> 00:17:29,257
It wasn't the relationship.
288
00:17:29,341 --> 00:17:31,218
It's not the person.
289
00:17:31,301 --> 00:17:33,136
It's the well-toned,
290
00:17:33,220 --> 00:17:35,889
athletic male body. That's what he wanted.
291
00:17:36,598 --> 00:17:39,935
He sawed off a bat for a weapon
to knock the man unconscious.
292
00:17:40,852 --> 00:17:42,521
[Wendy] He had hid behind a tree.
293
00:17:45,524 --> 00:17:48,235
But that particular jogger
did not come by,
294
00:17:48,318 --> 00:17:49,861
so he abandoned that idea.
295
00:17:51,613 --> 00:17:54,783
[Michael Mccann] That was basically
Dahmer's first violent fantasy.
296
00:17:55,492 --> 00:17:58,829
To do that to this man
that jogged through his neighborhood.
297
00:17:58,912 --> 00:18:00,747
[uneasy music playing]
298
00:18:07,504 --> 00:18:09,089
[tape rolling]
299
00:18:11,925 --> 00:18:13,468
[news theme music playing]
300
00:18:14,636 --> 00:18:17,055
[reporter] From WTMJ TV.
301
00:18:17,139 --> 00:18:19,391
Milwaukee's 24-hour news channel.
302
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:23,270
This is News Channel 4 Daybreak.
303
00:18:24,187 --> 00:18:27,399
My first opportunity
to share the news with the world
304
00:18:27,482 --> 00:18:31,278
was in a morning live shot
on a, uh, morning news show.
305
00:18:31,361 --> 00:18:35,031
Good morning. A very gruesome
discovery in Milwaukee overnight.
306
00:18:35,115 --> 00:18:39,035
Milwaukee police find a horrifying scene
inside an apartment building.
307
00:18:39,619 --> 00:18:43,999
What I recited shocked the anchor people
back at the station.
308
00:18:44,082 --> 00:18:47,127
Mike and Juliet, police got here
in the middle of the night,
309
00:18:47,210 --> 00:18:51,339
and what they found was an apartment
full of pieces of people.
310
00:18:51,423 --> 00:18:55,093
Men who were apparently killed
by another man, a resident here,
311
00:18:55,177 --> 00:18:58,597
in what appears to be
a sexually motivated mass murder.
312
00:18:59,598 --> 00:19:02,392
At the end of the broadcast,
I was expecting a question.
313
00:19:02,475 --> 00:19:04,936
You always get a routine question
from the anchor people.
314
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,105
The bodies were dismembered,
315
00:19:07,189 --> 00:19:09,649
so literally
piecing together the information,
316
00:19:09,733 --> 00:19:12,485
it's gonna be difficult to figure out
who the victims are.
317
00:19:13,236 --> 00:19:14,404
They were silent.
318
00:19:17,199 --> 00:19:21,203
I asked them later, "What happened?
Why didn't you ask me a question?"
319
00:19:21,286 --> 00:19:24,789
They said, "We were so stunned,
we couldn't think of a question."
320
00:19:27,959 --> 00:19:29,544
[Causey] I remember going to the scene
321
00:19:29,628 --> 00:19:32,172
because as a reporter,
you wanna see for yourself.
322
00:19:32,255 --> 00:19:34,549
And it was… it was literally a zoo.
323
00:19:34,633 --> 00:19:38,136
-[reporters chattering indistinctly]
-It was like that for days on end.
324
00:19:38,929 --> 00:19:43,016
People were shocked. They were awed.
And they couldn't turn away.
325
00:19:43,934 --> 00:19:45,936
[indistinct chatter]
326
00:19:49,814 --> 00:19:53,193
[Wendy] You can't imagine
the enormity of it all.
327
00:19:53,276 --> 00:19:55,195
It was anxiety.
328
00:19:55,278 --> 00:19:58,698
It was a lot of excitement,
to some extent.
329
00:19:59,407 --> 00:20:01,910
But worried that I was doing my job right.
330
00:20:02,452 --> 00:20:04,913
[playing from recorder]
When did your parents separate?
331
00:20:04,996 --> 00:20:06,331
[Jeffrey] When I was 18.
332
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,667
In 1978.
333
00:20:09,709 --> 00:20:13,421
Instilling in him that I'm not somebody
sitting here judging him,
334
00:20:14,130 --> 00:20:16,091
um, was of utmost importance
335
00:20:16,174 --> 00:20:17,842
to cut through everything,
336
00:20:17,926 --> 00:20:19,844
because there was so much material.
337
00:20:21,012 --> 00:20:24,516
To get that trust
made all the difference in the world.
338
00:20:26,101 --> 00:20:29,562
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
Mom and Dad, they had their problems.
339
00:20:30,355 --> 00:20:33,358
There was nothing I could do
to change the situation,
340
00:20:33,858 --> 00:20:35,402
so I just tried to
341
00:20:35,902 --> 00:20:39,364
find some happiness my own way,
342
00:20:40,031 --> 00:20:42,200
which was obviously the wrong way.
343
00:20:47,330 --> 00:20:48,456
[tape rolling]
344
00:20:53,545 --> 00:20:56,172
[Mccann] Dahmer had just graduated
from high school.
345
00:20:58,341 --> 00:21:00,427
His parents were going through a divorce,
346
00:21:00,510 --> 00:21:03,596
and Dahmer was alone
at the home in Bath, Ohio.
347
00:21:05,265 --> 00:21:07,642
[Dr. Smail] His mother kicked
his father out.
348
00:21:07,726 --> 00:21:09,894
He moved out to a motel.
349
00:21:10,812 --> 00:21:12,564
Unbeknownst to his dad,
350
00:21:12,647 --> 00:21:14,899
his mother just decided,
"I've had enough."
351
00:21:14,983 --> 00:21:17,694
So she left abruptly with his brother.
352
00:21:18,570 --> 00:21:20,322
[Wendy] I don't think his father knew
353
00:21:20,405 --> 00:21:24,117
that the mother
had left for Wisconsin at the time.
354
00:21:25,118 --> 00:21:28,330
Jeffrey Dahmer never used the word
"abandoned by his parents,"
355
00:21:28,413 --> 00:21:32,459
although I think that he might
have been familiar with that feeling.
356
00:21:33,418 --> 00:21:35,795
[Wendy plays from recorder]
The day she left to Chippewa Falls
357
00:21:35,879 --> 00:21:38,048
-you never talked to her again?
[Jeffrey] Right.
358
00:21:38,131 --> 00:21:40,133
[Wendy] How did it make you feel
at that time?
359
00:21:40,216 --> 00:21:41,760
[Jeffrey] Uh, depressed.
360
00:21:41,843 --> 00:21:43,303
Lonely and bored.
361
00:21:44,971 --> 00:21:46,598
Confused, I would say.
362
00:21:48,016 --> 00:21:49,893
No one was at home.
363
00:21:50,602 --> 00:21:52,479
I saw this guy hitchhiking.
364
00:21:52,562 --> 00:21:56,149
I thought it'd be nice
to have someone around to talk with,
365
00:21:57,150 --> 00:22:01,321
and someone that I wanted
to be with for sex.
366
00:22:08,745 --> 00:22:09,996
[cheering]
367
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,834
[woman] In 1978,
Steven Hicks was hitchhiking
368
00:22:14,918 --> 00:22:17,087
to a rock concert.
369
00:22:19,089 --> 00:22:24,010
[Wendy] One of the things
that Jeffrey was always interested in
370
00:22:24,886 --> 00:22:27,597
was the torso, the physique,
371
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,684
how well-built,
how attractive the individual was.
372
00:22:32,727 --> 00:22:34,979
That was the driving force
of his attraction.
373
00:22:36,231 --> 00:22:39,984
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
That's what attracted me. The physique.
374
00:22:40,068 --> 00:22:41,903
Just the muscular physique.
375
00:22:42,487 --> 00:22:44,739
That's… That's the motivation.
376
00:22:45,657 --> 00:22:48,827
When Steven Hicks was hitchhiking
and didn't have a shirt on,
377
00:22:49,411 --> 00:22:52,914
he said to me, "This is unbelievable.
This was the fantasy I had."
378
00:22:53,581 --> 00:22:55,583
"Now I'm able to enact it."
379
00:22:56,126 --> 00:22:57,210
[Dr. Smail] Jeffrey thought,
380
00:22:57,293 --> 00:23:00,880
"What a great opportunity.
I've got a car, a house. Nobody around."
381
00:23:00,964 --> 00:23:04,509
"So let me see if I can get this guy
to come back to the house."
382
00:23:05,218 --> 00:23:07,470
He stopped, talked to him and said,
383
00:23:07,554 --> 00:23:09,931
"Look, I've got some beer
and pot at the house."
384
00:23:10,014 --> 00:23:12,725
"Do you wanna come back
and share that with me?"
385
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:14,978
Steven Hicks said yes.
386
00:23:15,562 --> 00:23:17,730
[Wendy] Mr. Hicks was not gay.
387
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,358
There wasn't any sexual interaction.
388
00:23:22,444 --> 00:23:24,821
[from recorder] You hadn't done
anything with him, had you?
389
00:23:24,904 --> 00:23:25,822
[Jeffrey] No.
390
00:23:26,948 --> 00:23:29,701
I just got the sense
he wasn't interested in that at all,
391
00:23:29,784 --> 00:23:31,786
after a while talking with him.
392
00:23:31,870 --> 00:23:34,038
So I don't believe I asked him, no.
393
00:23:34,831 --> 00:23:35,832
[Wendy] Okay.
394
00:23:36,749 --> 00:23:40,211
At some point,
Steven Hicks indicated to Jeffrey,
395
00:23:40,295 --> 00:23:42,964
"I gotta get going.
I can't stay here any longer."
396
00:23:43,047 --> 00:23:45,133
"People will be wondering where I am."
397
00:23:46,593 --> 00:23:48,136
Jeff didn't wanna let him go.
398
00:23:50,513 --> 00:23:52,891
[Jeffrey] It was the first time, uh…
399
00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:56,352
I did have the desire to control.
400
00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,063
I lost all feelings,
401
00:23:59,772 --> 00:24:02,650
so I guess I just decided
402
00:24:03,568 --> 00:24:06,529
to do it, whether he was, uh, gay or not.
403
00:24:06,613 --> 00:24:08,281
It didn't really matter.
404
00:24:10,742 --> 00:24:13,661
Dahmer took a barbell from a weight set
405
00:24:13,745 --> 00:24:16,331
and hit Steven Hicks
over the head with it.
406
00:24:17,749 --> 00:24:18,958
[thudding]
407
00:24:24,547 --> 00:24:25,715
[tape recorder clicks]
408
00:24:30,303 --> 00:24:34,098
[Jeffrey from recorder] I dunno why I hit
him, except I wanted to stay with him
409
00:24:34,182 --> 00:24:35,266
for longer.
410
00:24:36,643 --> 00:24:39,437
[Dr. Smail] Steven is then
unconscious at this point,
411
00:24:39,521 --> 00:24:43,900
and Jeffrey uses the barbell
to… to strangle Steven.
412
00:24:44,609 --> 00:24:47,195
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
I thought how amazing it was
413
00:24:47,278 --> 00:24:50,782
that I was actually doing it
414
00:24:50,865 --> 00:24:52,408
to another human being.
415
00:24:52,492 --> 00:24:53,868
It shocked me
416
00:24:53,952 --> 00:24:56,037
that I got to that point.
417
00:24:57,330 --> 00:24:59,582
And that was a feeling of excitement,
418
00:24:59,666 --> 00:25:00,625
control,
419
00:25:01,209 --> 00:25:03,503
but mingled with a lot of fear.
420
00:25:04,629 --> 00:25:06,881
[Wendy] What did you do with his body?
-[Jeffrey] Nothing.
421
00:25:06,965 --> 00:25:08,550
Just right under the…
422
00:25:09,342 --> 00:25:12,387
under the house in the crawl space area.
423
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:14,931
[Wendy] Did you go down and look at him?
-[Jeffrey] I did once.
424
00:25:15,014 --> 00:25:16,516
But just looked at him.
425
00:25:17,559 --> 00:25:20,645
[Wendy] What was going through your mind
as you were looking at him?
426
00:25:21,563 --> 00:25:22,522
[Jeffrey] Uh…
427
00:25:23,565 --> 00:25:26,776
A sort of morbid curiosity as to…
428
00:25:28,653 --> 00:25:30,822
what a dead person looked like.
429
00:25:33,032 --> 00:25:33,950
Uh…
430
00:25:34,784 --> 00:25:37,912
Curiosity mixed with a lot of fear.
431
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,542
[Wendy] It was after that
432
00:25:42,625 --> 00:25:46,296
that now he has this anxiety, uh, panic.
433
00:25:46,838 --> 00:25:50,383
"Uh, what am I gonna do with the body?
How am I gonna get rid of this?"
434
00:25:52,468 --> 00:25:54,637
[indistinct sounds on tape]
435
00:25:57,473 --> 00:26:00,143
[Jeffrey from recorder] I started
dismembering him and everything.
436
00:26:00,226 --> 00:26:02,770
There's something about him
that I remember.
437
00:26:02,854 --> 00:26:06,107
Cutting the legs off
and then the arms and head.
438
00:26:07,817 --> 00:26:09,319
[Wendy] Did you touch anything?
439
00:26:09,402 --> 00:26:11,321
[Jeffrey] I… I probably did.
440
00:26:11,404 --> 00:26:12,864
Liver and the heart.
441
00:26:15,700 --> 00:26:17,910
He had the head separate for a while.
442
00:26:17,994 --> 00:26:21,164
He masturbated to the body parts.
443
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,667
[Wendy from recorder] Did it concern you
at all as to why you felt
444
00:26:24,751 --> 00:26:26,502
such satisfaction at that time,
445
00:26:26,586 --> 00:26:30,089
when you were 18 years old,
by using him to masturbate?
446
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,593
[Jeffrey] I'm not sure
I even know why now.
447
00:26:33,676 --> 00:26:37,013
I got, uh, an exciting feeling
out of doing that.
448
00:26:38,806 --> 00:26:39,932
But I did it.
449
00:26:40,850 --> 00:26:43,144
[Wendy] How long did you
keep him in the house with you?
450
00:26:43,227 --> 00:26:44,103
[Jeffrey] Um…
451
00:26:44,604 --> 00:26:46,773
I don't know. Six hours.
452
00:26:51,819 --> 00:26:53,696
He got the most satisfaction
453
00:26:53,780 --> 00:26:55,907
in what he did with the body afterwards.
454
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,786
It was true
that he did have a sexual disorder.
455
00:27:00,912 --> 00:27:05,458
In an attempt to try
and get him through the insanity plea,
456
00:27:05,541 --> 00:27:09,545
I know that one of our experts,
uh, went into it a great deal.
457
00:27:10,963 --> 00:27:13,091
[Fred Berlin] I'm a forensic psychiatrist.
458
00:27:13,633 --> 00:27:16,636
I was an expert witness
in the Jeffrey Dahmer case.
459
00:27:19,013 --> 00:27:22,266
My expertise is in paraphilias,
which is in layman's terms
460
00:27:22,350 --> 00:27:23,935
sexual deviation disorders.
461
00:27:24,018 --> 00:27:27,480
People have something different
or aberrant about their sexual makeup.
462
00:27:28,773 --> 00:27:31,609
My diagnosis of Mr. Dahmer
was necrophilia.
463
00:27:32,235 --> 00:27:34,737
Necrophilia is a condition
464
00:27:34,821 --> 00:27:36,698
in which an individual
465
00:27:36,781 --> 00:27:38,157
is very much aroused
466
00:27:38,241 --> 00:27:41,577
by having sex with individuals
after they've passed away.
467
00:27:43,246 --> 00:27:44,956
So there's the corpse.
468
00:27:45,540 --> 00:27:46,874
There's Jeffrey.
469
00:27:47,458 --> 00:27:51,254
About three o'clock in the morning,
he decided to dispose of the body
470
00:27:51,337 --> 00:27:53,464
by taking it to a ravine
471
00:27:53,548 --> 00:27:56,050
that he knew was some miles down the road.
472
00:28:00,930 --> 00:28:03,766
He took the body,
put the body into garbage bags,
473
00:28:03,850 --> 00:28:07,895
and was stopped by a police officer
because he crossed the median line.
474
00:28:08,813 --> 00:28:10,606
[police siren wailing]
475
00:28:12,066 --> 00:28:15,111
They tested him for drunken driving.
He passed.
476
00:28:15,194 --> 00:28:18,197
The officer took his flashlight
and flashed it into the back,
477
00:28:18,281 --> 00:28:21,701
and there was the garbage bag
with Hicks' dead body in it.
478
00:28:21,784 --> 00:28:25,580
The officer asked what it was. He said,
"The garbage. My parents are breaking up."
479
00:28:25,663 --> 00:28:28,624
"I'm alone. I couldn't sleep,
so I thought I'd get rid of the garbage."
480
00:28:28,708 --> 00:28:32,545
You've got a dead body in the seat
behind you that you've just killed,
481
00:28:32,628 --> 00:28:34,589
and you're now talking
with a police officer.
482
00:28:34,672 --> 00:28:36,632
You're an 18-year-old boy.
483
00:28:36,716 --> 00:28:40,219
Dahmer knew what was at stake,
and Dahmer was cool enough to say,
484
00:28:40,303 --> 00:28:43,931
"Just on the way to dump the garbage."
The officer believed him.
485
00:28:44,015 --> 00:28:47,560
Although he saw the bags,
he never looked in the bags.
486
00:28:48,394 --> 00:28:51,147
He was able to convince that officer.
487
00:28:51,731 --> 00:28:54,525
After that, he knew
that he could manipulate.
488
00:28:54,609 --> 00:28:58,529
He knew he could make a statement
to somebody and get away with it.
489
00:28:59,489 --> 00:29:02,033
He turned around
and went back to the house.
490
00:29:03,826 --> 00:29:08,539
He found a galvanized pipe.
He said it was about two feet,
491
00:29:08,623 --> 00:29:10,458
that he stuffed the bags into.
492
00:29:11,250 --> 00:29:14,003
Uh, he went out over the bridge,
over the river,
493
00:29:14,086 --> 00:29:17,465
and threw any other personal items
494
00:29:17,548 --> 00:29:19,217
of, uh, Mr. Hicks.
495
00:29:19,967 --> 00:29:22,595
Including a knife that he… that he used
496
00:29:22,678 --> 00:29:25,181
to cut the body into manageable pieces.
497
00:29:26,182 --> 00:29:28,267
[Jeffrey from recorder]
Dad was living at the hotel,
498
00:29:28,351 --> 00:29:31,646
so I was pretty much by myself
for a couple months.
499
00:29:32,438 --> 00:29:34,649
[Wendy] During the time
your father was at the hotel,
500
00:29:34,732 --> 00:29:36,651
how many times a day
would you speak with him?
501
00:29:37,693 --> 00:29:39,570
[Jeffrey] Maybe once or twice a week.
502
00:29:40,655 --> 00:29:43,783
His father and Shari,
his soon-to-be stepmother,
503
00:29:43,866 --> 00:29:45,243
came back to the house.
504
00:29:45,326 --> 00:29:47,370
There wasn't much food
in the refrigerator.
505
00:29:47,453 --> 00:29:49,413
Alcohol bottles were around.
506
00:29:49,497 --> 00:29:53,125
It looked like a life that was in trouble
as a young man.
507
00:29:54,210 --> 00:29:56,462
His father was quite concerned,
508
00:29:56,546 --> 00:29:58,464
so they moved back in.
509
00:30:02,802 --> 00:30:05,805
[Wendy playing from recorder] After that,
you said you went to Ohio State?
510
00:30:05,888 --> 00:30:07,557
[Jeffrey] For about three months.
511
00:30:09,642 --> 00:30:13,604
Did a lot of drinking there,
so grades weren't very good.
512
00:30:15,231 --> 00:30:16,941
[Smail] I think his dad
had gotten him into…
513
00:30:17,525 --> 00:30:18,985
It was Ohio State.
514
00:30:19,068 --> 00:30:21,821
He was drinking very heavily,
essentially flunked out.
515
00:30:22,864 --> 00:30:24,532
The decision was made
516
00:30:24,615 --> 00:30:27,869
by his dad and stepmother,
he would go into the army.
517
00:30:27,952 --> 00:30:29,745
[clipper buzzing]
518
00:30:29,829 --> 00:30:32,415
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
They sent me to basic training.
519
00:30:33,332 --> 00:30:35,001
Then field medic training.
520
00:30:36,878 --> 00:30:38,588
[Wendy] He indicated to me
521
00:30:38,671 --> 00:30:41,549
that this was something
that he learned about,
522
00:30:41,632 --> 00:30:44,176
being able to identify the organs,
523
00:30:44,260 --> 00:30:46,846
um, through his training in the military.
524
00:30:47,555 --> 00:30:51,183
[Dennis Murphy] Jeffrey Dahmer
was discharged because of drinking.
525
00:30:51,851 --> 00:30:53,978
[Jeffrey from recorder] I was
drinking heavily near the end,
526
00:30:54,061 --> 00:30:58,482
so I had to move back to Ohio
with the folks.
527
00:30:59,859 --> 00:31:03,362
When he came back and came to the house
three years later,
528
00:31:03,988 --> 00:31:06,657
the bags with Steven Hicks' body…
529
00:31:07,658 --> 00:31:09,368
Those bags were still there.
530
00:31:14,165 --> 00:31:17,877
[Mccann] Jeffrey Dahmer spread out
the remains of Steve Hicks
531
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,713
over the one and a quarter wooded acres
532
00:31:20,796 --> 00:31:22,590
on which the family lived.
533
00:31:22,673 --> 00:31:26,052
Here's a fine young man
that disappeared into thin air.
534
00:31:28,971 --> 00:31:32,808
You can imagine.
They didn't learn this until July of 1991.
535
00:31:32,892 --> 00:31:36,729
Their son disappeared in June of 1978.
536
00:31:36,812 --> 00:31:38,481
For 13 years,
537
00:31:38,564 --> 00:31:42,109
that family had no idea
what had happened to their son,
538
00:31:42,193 --> 00:31:43,235
Steven Hicks.
539
00:31:44,070 --> 00:31:47,156
[ominous music playing]
540
00:31:51,911 --> 00:31:54,622
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
I was troubled about that.
541
00:31:57,124 --> 00:32:00,211
[Wendy] How did it manifest itself
that you were troubled by it?
542
00:32:00,294 --> 00:32:01,963
What were you feeling?
543
00:32:02,046 --> 00:32:03,339
[Jeffrey] A lot of guilt.
544
00:32:04,465 --> 00:32:06,592
Indecision over whether I should
545
00:32:07,802 --> 00:32:08,886
confess to it.
546
00:32:13,057 --> 00:32:15,476
But I just never had the courage to.
547
00:32:15,559 --> 00:32:17,144
[Wendy] What were you thinking?
548
00:32:17,853 --> 00:32:21,065
[Jeffrey] Well,
I knew how horribly wrong it was.
549
00:32:22,525 --> 00:32:26,612
And I never wanted to have
anything like that ever happen again.
550
00:32:27,238 --> 00:32:29,615
[ominous music builds to climax]
551
00:32:32,159 --> 00:32:33,869
[tape rolling]
552
00:32:38,833 --> 00:32:40,960
[Murphy] During our interview
with Jeffrey Dahmer,
553
00:32:41,043 --> 00:32:44,088
we talked to him about family members,
554
00:32:44,171 --> 00:32:46,674
and Jeff says,
"Leave my family out of it."
555
00:32:47,550 --> 00:32:51,762
He says, "My parents don't have
any knowledge of my activities."
556
00:32:52,763 --> 00:32:54,348
I… I told Lionel,
557
00:32:54,432 --> 00:32:55,766
Jeff's father,
558
00:32:56,434 --> 00:32:59,603
about the homicides,
and his reaction was shock.
559
00:33:00,187 --> 00:33:03,733
He couldn't understand
how his kid would do this to someone.
560
00:33:04,650 --> 00:33:07,486
How is his family reacting to all of this?
561
00:33:08,154 --> 00:33:11,032
I can only state
that, uh, it would be predictable
562
00:33:11,115 --> 00:33:13,784
as to how anyone's family
would react to this.
563
00:33:13,868 --> 00:33:17,872
They likewise are extremely despairing.
564
00:33:18,497 --> 00:33:21,751
They feel horrible
for the tragedy that has happened,
565
00:33:22,334 --> 00:33:25,463
including the victims
and the victims' family.
566
00:33:25,546 --> 00:33:28,507
And, of course,
feel great grief for their son.
567
00:33:28,591 --> 00:33:31,260
It's a very fine and wonderful family.
568
00:33:31,802 --> 00:33:34,472
His father Lionel is just a marvelous man,
569
00:33:34,555 --> 00:33:37,141
and he is hurting as badly as anyone.
570
00:33:38,100 --> 00:33:43,272
[Lionel Dahmer] I love him.
I did not realize just how sick he was.
571
00:33:43,981 --> 00:33:47,026
And I will, as I always have,
572
00:33:47,109 --> 00:33:49,487
stand by him in my thoughts and prayers.
573
00:33:50,321 --> 00:33:51,989
[uneasy music playing]
574
00:33:55,576 --> 00:33:58,037
-[lighter flickers]
-[Wendy] Detectives allowed him to smoke
575
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,831
and to have as much coffee
as he wanted as well.
576
00:34:01,832 --> 00:34:04,043
It kept him calm and on track,
577
00:34:04,126 --> 00:34:07,922
and I think without those,
we wouldn't have gotten all the story.
578
00:34:08,506 --> 00:34:11,801
Because he was willing to talk
longer and longer
579
00:34:11,884 --> 00:34:14,720
as long as he could
continue to have those two things.
580
00:34:15,387 --> 00:34:17,890
[Jeffrey from recorder]
It's difficult dredging up these feelings
581
00:34:17,973 --> 00:34:19,558
and motivations, you know.
582
00:34:19,642 --> 00:34:22,978
[Wendy] I know it's real hard.
If it gets too difficult, tell me.
583
00:34:23,521 --> 00:34:25,231
-You realize why…
-[Jeffrey] Yes, it… it…
584
00:34:25,815 --> 00:34:28,109
Talking about it and analyzing it
585
00:34:29,151 --> 00:34:30,903
shows me just how,
586
00:34:30,986 --> 00:34:33,656
uh, warped my thinking was.
587
00:34:35,908 --> 00:34:38,494
My relationship with him, as it grew,
588
00:34:38,577 --> 00:34:41,455
um, he would be more and more willing
589
00:34:41,539 --> 00:34:45,292
to, um, expound
on the nuances of each case,
590
00:34:45,376 --> 00:34:46,836
of each murder.
591
00:34:48,212 --> 00:34:51,340
There were times
that I felt like a mother to him.
592
00:34:51,423 --> 00:34:54,426
There were times that I felt like… like
he was my brother.
593
00:34:54,510 --> 00:34:57,596
There were times
that I felt like he… I was his therapist.
594
00:34:59,473 --> 00:35:01,976
[playing from recorder]
You ever try to develop a relationship?
595
00:35:02,059 --> 00:35:05,104
[Jeffrey] Uh, no. I can't say that I did.
596
00:35:05,187 --> 00:35:06,605
[Wendy] Why not?
597
00:35:06,689 --> 00:35:09,942
[Jeffrey] Well, it was because
of the home situation.
598
00:35:10,025 --> 00:35:11,944
I couldn't carry on
599
00:35:12,027 --> 00:35:15,156
a long-term relationship
where I was staying.
600
00:35:16,073 --> 00:35:21,120
Jeff's father suggested
moving in with grandma, which he did.
601
00:35:21,704 --> 00:35:25,082
[Murphy] After I informed Katherine,
his grandmother,
602
00:35:25,166 --> 00:35:28,085
about his activities and what he did,
603
00:35:28,169 --> 00:35:30,129
she… she broke down and cried.
604
00:35:30,754 --> 00:35:32,339
She didn't believe it.
605
00:35:32,423 --> 00:35:36,802
She said she didn't want
to get involved in his activities.
606
00:35:39,263 --> 00:35:43,225
And she didn't want to know
what was going on in the basement.
607
00:35:48,439 --> 00:35:49,857
[tape rolling]
608
00:35:58,824 --> 00:36:00,826
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
I had moved out then,
609
00:36:00,910 --> 00:36:03,204
to here up in Wisconsin
610
00:36:03,287 --> 00:36:04,914
to help my grandma out.
611
00:36:05,915 --> 00:36:08,667
It was, "Well, why don't you
go and move with Grandma?"
612
00:36:08,751 --> 00:36:13,297
"A place that would be healthy for you.
She's getting older. She needs the help."
613
00:36:13,964 --> 00:36:16,800
"And start, you know, in a new city."
614
00:36:17,801 --> 00:36:20,429
Jeffrey told me
he loved his grandmother very much.
615
00:36:23,057 --> 00:36:24,475
[Dr. Smail] Jeffrey's grandmother
616
00:36:24,558 --> 00:36:27,937
was described by Jeffrey
as a perfect grandmother.
617
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:29,772
South Side, Milwaukee.
618
00:36:30,648 --> 00:36:32,650
Religious, caring.
619
00:36:33,317 --> 00:36:34,818
A very, very nice person.
620
00:36:34,902 --> 00:36:38,948
And this is the environment
in which Lionel Dahmer grew up in.
621
00:36:39,031 --> 00:36:41,825
[Wendy] She was very supportive,
and she loved Jeff.
622
00:36:41,909 --> 00:36:45,120
It was very clear that he wasn't
that close with his mom and dad.
623
00:36:46,664 --> 00:36:49,500
Grandma's house was in West Allis,
a suburb of Milwaukee.
624
00:36:50,334 --> 00:36:53,045
[Jeffrey playing from recorder] Uh,
I helped her with the yard work
625
00:36:53,128 --> 00:36:54,255
and various chores.
626
00:36:55,881 --> 00:36:59,260
[Dr. Smail] When Jeffrey moved in,
I don't think she put much demands on him.
627
00:36:59,927 --> 00:37:03,097
It isn't clear to me
if she knew his sexuality.
628
00:37:03,889 --> 00:37:05,182
But Jeffrey was aware
629
00:37:05,266 --> 00:37:08,435
that had she known that,
she would've been quite judgmental.
630
00:37:09,436 --> 00:37:11,021
[Wendy] At that time,
631
00:37:11,105 --> 00:37:13,649
coming out, it was completely different.
632
00:37:13,732 --> 00:37:17,695
That was a struggle for him. He told me.
He said, "I don't like being gay."
633
00:37:21,573 --> 00:37:24,368
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
I really made a sincere effort
634
00:37:24,868 --> 00:37:27,788
to change the way I was living,
635
00:37:27,871 --> 00:37:29,331
to change my desires.
636
00:37:29,915 --> 00:37:33,002
To get rid of the, uh…
637
00:37:33,085 --> 00:37:36,588
homosexual, uh, feelings that I had.
638
00:37:37,131 --> 00:37:39,800
Any sinful thoughts.
639
00:37:41,176 --> 00:37:43,554
Started going to church with Grandma
640
00:37:43,637 --> 00:37:45,264
on a regular basis.
641
00:37:46,432 --> 00:37:48,600
And, uh, tried to stifle
642
00:37:48,684 --> 00:37:51,770
any sexual feelings that I had.
643
00:37:53,856 --> 00:37:57,526
I think that really, uh, you know,
started to change him.
644
00:37:57,609 --> 00:37:59,570
He would read the Bible.
645
00:37:59,653 --> 00:38:03,407
They, you know, spent
a lot of time together at dinners.
646
00:38:03,490 --> 00:38:04,366
[recorder clicks]
647
00:38:04,450 --> 00:38:07,619
[Jeffrey playing from recorder] My grandma
was going to church every Sunday.
648
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,788
[Wendy] What denomination is she?
649
00:38:09,872 --> 00:38:11,040
[Jeffrey] Protestant.
650
00:38:14,084 --> 00:38:17,087
He was going to church.
He was praying he would find some way
651
00:38:17,171 --> 00:38:21,425
to fight off these urges,
these… these pathological sexual cravings.
652
00:38:21,508 --> 00:38:23,010
It was during that time period
653
00:38:23,093 --> 00:38:26,347
that he tried to create surrogates
to not take a… a human life.
654
00:38:29,683 --> 00:38:32,811
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
I was walking around Southridge
655
00:38:33,604 --> 00:38:35,606
and, uh, saw this mannequin
656
00:38:35,689 --> 00:38:38,067
that sort of caught my eye.
657
00:38:38,150 --> 00:38:40,861
I wanted that mannequin, so I…
658
00:38:42,446 --> 00:38:43,947
went in the store.
659
00:38:44,031 --> 00:38:45,449
There's nobody in there.
660
00:38:45,532 --> 00:38:47,993
Stayed there until closing time.
661
00:38:48,077 --> 00:38:50,371
-[Wendy] And no alarms went off?
-[Jeffrey] No, nothing.
662
00:38:50,454 --> 00:38:52,247
I got the mannequin undressed,
663
00:38:52,331 --> 00:38:53,582
got a taxi back home,
664
00:38:53,665 --> 00:38:56,251
and stored it in the garage
665
00:38:56,335 --> 00:38:58,295
at, uh, Grandma's house.
666
00:38:58,921 --> 00:39:01,382
And I used to play around with it after…
667
00:39:02,966 --> 00:39:05,052
dressing it up and undressing it.
668
00:39:06,970 --> 00:39:08,597
Pretending it was real.
669
00:39:11,183 --> 00:39:14,686
[Dr. Dietz] He did use it
to lie with it and masturbate,
670
00:39:14,770 --> 00:39:17,856
which wasn't as good as a person.
671
00:39:17,940 --> 00:39:19,483
He found it disappointing.
672
00:39:20,442 --> 00:39:23,987
A faceless mannequin from a department
store didn't cut it for him.
673
00:39:25,364 --> 00:39:28,867
[Jeffrey plays from recorder] After a week
or two, Grandma would stumble across it.
674
00:39:28,951 --> 00:39:32,413
She was hanging up some clothes
that she'd washed for me.
675
00:39:32,496 --> 00:39:34,998
-[Wendy] She did?
-[Jeffrey] Yeah. She asked me what was it.
676
00:39:35,082 --> 00:39:36,375
Where did I get it.
677
00:39:36,458 --> 00:39:40,045
And I gave her some story
that I picked it up at…
678
00:39:40,129 --> 00:39:42,714
They had extra mannequins
that they were selling.
679
00:39:42,798 --> 00:39:46,427
I think she called Dad,
so I figured I better get rid of it.
680
00:39:46,510 --> 00:39:49,096
Took it down to the basement and, uh,
681
00:39:49,179 --> 00:39:52,474
smashed it up,
and threw it out in the garbage.
682
00:39:53,976 --> 00:39:55,727
[eerie music playing]
683
00:40:01,442 --> 00:40:03,902
[Dr. Dietz]
I've seen about 20 serial killers.
684
00:40:04,611 --> 00:40:07,030
Not all of them sexual but most.
685
00:40:07,698 --> 00:40:10,451
And I've seen a number of mass murderers,
686
00:40:10,534 --> 00:40:13,954
and I was approached
by the district attorney's office
687
00:40:14,037 --> 00:40:15,664
to evaluate Mr. Dahmer.
688
00:40:16,582 --> 00:40:20,919
Saw him for three days
and later testified at his trial.
689
00:40:21,003 --> 00:40:24,339
The extraordinary thing
in comparing Jeffrey Dahmer
690
00:40:24,423 --> 00:40:29,303
to other serial killers I've interviewed
is how he lacked defensiveness about it.
691
00:40:29,887 --> 00:40:33,807
He wasn't, as far as I could tell,
trying to hide anything from me.
692
00:40:33,891 --> 00:40:38,103
I do think that he sought to find
another solution for a time.
693
00:40:38,687 --> 00:40:43,233
But when Dahmer
was trying to avoid alcohol,
694
00:40:43,734 --> 00:40:47,196
uh, trying to avoid gay sex
695
00:40:47,279 --> 00:40:50,491
because of his religious inhibitions
against it,
696
00:40:51,992 --> 00:40:55,662
he had what was for him
an unprecedented experience
697
00:40:55,746 --> 00:40:59,333
of a man dropping a note in the library,
698
00:40:59,416 --> 00:41:02,002
offering him a blow job in the bathroom.
699
00:41:03,587 --> 00:41:06,423
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
I was in the West Allis library…
700
00:41:06,507 --> 00:41:07,591
[sniffs]
701
00:41:07,674 --> 00:41:10,135
…just sitting in a chair, reading a book.
702
00:41:11,178 --> 00:41:13,680
It was the last thing I expected,
you know?
703
00:41:14,515 --> 00:41:18,227
I just laughed it off to myself.
I thought, uh,
704
00:41:18,310 --> 00:41:21,730
"That's an awful feeble,
705
00:41:21,813 --> 00:41:24,858
uh, attempt to get me to stumble,"
706
00:41:25,484 --> 00:41:26,485
you know?
707
00:41:27,027 --> 00:41:29,238
I never saw his face or anything.
708
00:41:31,365 --> 00:41:34,409
[Wendy] You'd put the compulsion to rest
when you went to church with Grandma,
709
00:41:34,493 --> 00:41:36,828
and it came back stronger, didn't it?
710
00:41:37,871 --> 00:41:40,040
[Jeffrey] That's what triggered it,
I guess.
711
00:41:42,042 --> 00:41:46,421
This made him begin thinking
about gay sex much more
712
00:41:46,964 --> 00:41:49,216
and realizing he could go get it.
713
00:41:50,592 --> 00:41:54,137
So in that sense,
it did open the world to him.
714
00:41:54,930 --> 00:41:58,559
And there came a time
when he threw caution to the winds.
715
00:41:59,601 --> 00:42:01,144
[suspenseful music playing]
716
00:42:04,565 --> 00:42:06,650
[Anne Schwartz] Jeffrey Dahmer got a job.
717
00:42:07,859 --> 00:42:09,945
He was a mixer
718
00:42:10,028 --> 00:42:12,447
at the Ambrosia chocolate factory.
719
00:42:13,282 --> 00:42:15,075
He worked the night shifts.
720
00:42:15,659 --> 00:42:19,246
It was a job that enabled him
721
00:42:19,329 --> 00:42:21,373
to go out on the weekends.
722
00:42:22,499 --> 00:42:25,502
[Jeffrey playing from recorder] I at least
had a job that paid halfway decent.
723
00:42:26,003 --> 00:42:28,088
I could look forward to free time.
724
00:42:28,171 --> 00:42:29,381
Privacy.
725
00:42:31,216 --> 00:42:32,968
Started drinking again,
726
00:42:33,927 --> 00:42:35,470
going to the bookstores.
727
00:42:36,430 --> 00:42:37,514
Uh…
728
00:42:38,140 --> 00:42:41,935
Found out where the gay bars were
and started going to them.
729
00:42:42,728 --> 00:42:45,814
What I was looking for
was some live companionship.
730
00:42:46,315 --> 00:42:48,191
Someone to spend the night with.
731
00:42:48,275 --> 00:42:51,987
A man I had complete control over,
732
00:42:52,571 --> 00:42:55,073
and to be able to do with as I pleased.
733
00:42:55,657 --> 00:42:57,409
Something real,
734
00:42:57,492 --> 00:43:00,495
uh, instead of fake like the mannequin.
735
00:43:00,579 --> 00:43:02,164
So that was my fantasy.
736
00:43:04,124 --> 00:43:07,252
Little by little, I started falling away…
737
00:43:12,174 --> 00:43:15,135
I just, uh, gave up trying to resist.
738
00:43:18,305 --> 00:43:22,184
I knew Jeffrey Dahmer
and several of his victims.
739
00:43:23,435 --> 00:43:25,687
After this all came out,
740
00:43:25,771 --> 00:43:29,691
several people in the bars said,
"I remember him. I remember him."
741
00:43:29,775 --> 00:43:32,694
Well, of course. We all did.
Milwaukee's only this big.
742
00:43:32,778 --> 00:43:34,571
[vibrant music playing]
743
00:43:36,615 --> 00:43:38,283
[Ross] The 1980s.
744
00:43:39,242 --> 00:43:42,788
Gay life was really up-and-coming
745
00:43:42,871 --> 00:43:44,373
in Milwaukee.
746
00:43:45,374 --> 00:43:47,292
It wasn't as exclusive
747
00:43:47,376 --> 00:43:49,961
as Chicago and New York and LA,
748
00:43:50,587 --> 00:43:52,964
but for a city like Milwaukee,
749
00:43:53,799 --> 00:43:54,966
we had a good time.
750
00:43:55,050 --> 00:43:56,426
We had a ball.
751
00:43:59,054 --> 00:44:01,682
You could go out almost any night,
752
00:44:01,765 --> 00:44:04,226
and there'd be something
going on somewhere.
753
00:44:05,477 --> 00:44:07,187
[Ross] You could be yourself.
754
00:44:07,270 --> 00:44:09,106
You had freedom.
755
00:44:10,273 --> 00:44:12,567
So you were comfortable.
756
00:44:12,651 --> 00:44:16,113
I mean, we'd get dressed up
and go to the bar.
757
00:44:17,197 --> 00:44:19,950
The bars had beautiful music.
758
00:44:20,534 --> 00:44:22,536
People always wanted to dance.
759
00:44:24,496 --> 00:44:28,041
[Connor] The area for the gay bars
pretty much was centrally located.
760
00:44:28,667 --> 00:44:33,380
They were all within, I'd say,
an eight, nine-block radius of each other.
761
00:44:34,965 --> 00:44:37,092
You could easily walk from place to place.
762
00:44:38,593 --> 00:44:43,056
[Ross] We were all just coming into
who we are.
763
00:44:43,890 --> 00:44:45,642
Accepting ourselves.
764
00:44:47,185 --> 00:44:50,939
A lot of those people
were beautiful souls.
765
00:44:59,406 --> 00:45:01,825
[Michail Takach]
I had lived in Milwaukee my entire life
766
00:45:01,908 --> 00:45:06,079
and was involved in the community
from an early age.
767
00:45:06,163 --> 00:45:09,374
During that time,
I was also a columnist and journalist
768
00:45:09,458 --> 00:45:10,792
in the Milwaukee area.
769
00:45:12,210 --> 00:45:14,212
Dahmer operating in this space,
770
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,965
he carefully selected these places.
771
00:45:17,048 --> 00:45:19,384
The demographics, the customer base,
772
00:45:19,468 --> 00:45:20,969
the locations.
773
00:45:21,052 --> 00:45:22,763
These were not brightly lit streets.
774
00:45:22,846 --> 00:45:26,391
These were not places where people
would park their car and feel safe.
775
00:45:26,933 --> 00:45:30,228
That lack of transparency
really made it easy
776
00:45:30,312 --> 00:45:34,232
for someone like Dahmer
to be a predator in those spaces
777
00:45:34,316 --> 00:45:38,028
because no one knew what these people's
real names were in the first place.
778
00:45:38,111 --> 00:45:41,782
[reporter] Gay men often rely on the cover
of darkness to hide their second life
779
00:45:41,865 --> 00:45:44,493
from a good job, wife and kids.
780
00:45:44,576 --> 00:45:48,580
The president of Gay People's Union says
the relationship between homosexual men
781
00:45:48,663 --> 00:45:50,499
is often shrouded by secrecy.
782
00:45:52,834 --> 00:45:55,712
A long-running tradition
of the gay community
783
00:45:55,796 --> 00:45:57,047
was the bathhouse.
784
00:45:59,549 --> 00:46:01,009
By the 1970s and 1980s,
785
00:46:01,092 --> 00:46:04,179
they were really strictly being used
as social spaces
786
00:46:04,262 --> 00:46:06,515
for gay men to meet each other for sex.
787
00:46:08,141 --> 00:46:11,186
You could go to the bathhouse and get just
788
00:46:11,978 --> 00:46:15,524
as naked as you were born into the world,
and walk around freely.
789
00:46:16,024 --> 00:46:18,318
You see somebody you want,
and you do what you do.
790
00:46:18,401 --> 00:46:20,612
Because it was anonymous.
791
00:46:20,695 --> 00:46:24,699
You know, you didn't have to know them.
People were just trying to have sex.
792
00:46:26,243 --> 00:46:30,539
[Takach] In Milwaukee, the most
popular bathhouse was called Club Baths.
793
00:46:32,207 --> 00:46:35,460
It was a second floor,
only accessible by the alley.
794
00:46:35,544 --> 00:46:39,005
Um, unfortunately, it was also
a popular place with Jeffrey Dahmer.
795
00:46:41,091 --> 00:46:44,261
[Mccann] He'd meet men in bathhouses
and have sexual activities with them.
796
00:46:44,344 --> 00:46:46,972
However, Dahmer didn't wanna
submit to anybody.
797
00:46:47,472 --> 00:46:49,766
Jeffrey wanted to be completely in charge.
798
00:46:50,267 --> 00:46:53,436
So Dahmer started bringing drugs
into the bathhouses.
799
00:46:54,563 --> 00:46:56,731
[Wendy from recorder]
What sleeping pills did you use?
800
00:46:56,815 --> 00:46:58,108
[Jeffrey] Uh, Halcion.
801
00:46:58,191 --> 00:47:00,318
[Wendy] Why did you get that prescription?
802
00:47:01,987 --> 00:47:03,697
[Jeffrey] For trouble sleeping.
803
00:47:03,780 --> 00:47:05,115
I worked third shift.
804
00:47:06,283 --> 00:47:08,410
[Wendy] That gave you
a feeling of control?
805
00:47:08,493 --> 00:47:09,452
[Jeffrey] Uh…
806
00:47:10,453 --> 00:47:12,706
Well, I could keep them there longer.
807
00:47:13,248 --> 00:47:15,917
I could, uh, just lay around with them
808
00:47:16,001 --> 00:47:19,838
without feeling pressure
to do anything that they wanted to do.
809
00:47:20,338 --> 00:47:21,631
Uh…
810
00:47:22,799 --> 00:47:24,551
There just wouldn't be any…
811
00:47:24,634 --> 00:47:27,053
They wouldn't make any demands on me.
812
00:47:27,137 --> 00:47:30,682
Uh, I could just enjoy them
the way I wanted to.
813
00:47:32,142 --> 00:47:35,312
[Wendy] Did you think about at all
how they might have felt?
814
00:47:35,395 --> 00:47:38,815
[Jeffrey] Yeah, I think I did,
but at that point I didn't much care.
815
00:47:38,899 --> 00:47:41,484
I just wanted to do what I wanted.
816
00:47:41,568 --> 00:47:43,486
So I didn't care.
817
00:47:45,155 --> 00:47:48,533
That solved his problem
of not wanting people to leave,
818
00:47:48,617 --> 00:47:52,579
and to be able to lie together
for a prolonged period,
819
00:47:52,662 --> 00:47:55,832
which was a primary wish he had.
820
00:47:55,916 --> 00:47:58,251
These people were not conscious.
There weren't mobile.
821
00:47:58,335 --> 00:47:59,878
They weren't able to protect themselves.
822
00:47:59,961 --> 00:48:04,132
And they're engaging in sexual acts
against their wills.
823
00:48:05,967 --> 00:48:08,303
[Mccann] At one point,
he over-drugged someone,
824
00:48:08,386 --> 00:48:10,889
and when the guy
with difficulty waking him up,
825
00:48:10,972 --> 00:48:13,183
the bath owner,
had to summon medical help.
826
00:48:18,605 --> 00:48:21,733
And thereafter the word got out,
"Don't let Dahmer in your bathhouse."
827
00:48:23,652 --> 00:48:27,739
The police did not investigate
these cases as rape,
828
00:48:27,822 --> 00:48:29,532
or sexual assault,
829
00:48:29,616 --> 00:48:31,618
or disorderly conduct even.
830
00:48:31,701 --> 00:48:34,704
They essentially just told
the bathhouse operator
831
00:48:34,788 --> 00:48:38,833
to notify them if he returned,
and keep him off the property.
832
00:48:39,376 --> 00:48:44,172
I don't think they accepted the fact
that a man could be raped.
833
00:48:45,548 --> 00:48:49,386
He was a marked man.
He wasn't able to go there anymore.
834
00:48:51,638 --> 00:48:53,848
[Wendy playing from recorder]
Did any of that satisfy you?
835
00:48:53,932 --> 00:48:56,559
As far as really getting
any true satisfaction?
836
00:48:56,643 --> 00:48:57,519
[Jeffrey] It didn't.
837
00:48:58,395 --> 00:49:01,189
I didn't have control over them. I…
838
00:49:02,774 --> 00:49:05,777
I wanted all of them, you know.
839
00:49:05,860 --> 00:49:08,363
And, uh, couldn't get it that way.
840
00:49:11,950 --> 00:49:13,702
[tape rolling]
841
00:49:16,329 --> 00:49:18,123
[dance music playing]
842
00:49:19,249 --> 00:49:21,418
[Wendy] Jeffrey was out one night,
843
00:49:22,627 --> 00:49:25,046
and he met Steven Tuomi.
844
00:49:25,588 --> 00:49:28,008
And he wanted to spend a night with him,
845
00:49:28,591 --> 00:49:31,761
and it was too difficult
at his grandmother's house.
846
00:49:32,762 --> 00:49:36,182
So they took a room
over at the Ambassador Hotel.
847
00:49:36,266 --> 00:49:37,976
[uneasy music playing]
848
00:49:43,690 --> 00:49:44,649
[elevator dings]
849
00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:48,236
And drank a great deal.
850
00:49:50,530 --> 00:49:52,490
And they had a night together.
851
00:50:01,166 --> 00:50:02,917
The following morning,
852
00:50:03,001 --> 00:50:05,336
Jeff ended up waking up
853
00:50:06,004 --> 00:50:07,547
after being in a blackout.
854
00:50:08,423 --> 00:50:10,300
[playing from recorder]
You totally blacked out?
855
00:50:10,383 --> 00:50:11,217
[Jeffrey] Yeah.
856
00:50:11,301 --> 00:50:12,844
[Wendy] Had no idea you'd done anything?
857
00:50:12,927 --> 00:50:15,305
[Jeffrey] No.
Not until I woke up in the morning.
858
00:50:15,388 --> 00:50:16,848
I couldn't believe it.
859
00:50:17,432 --> 00:50:19,684
His hands were bloody.
The sheets were bloody.
860
00:50:19,768 --> 00:50:21,770
This guy's face was bloody.
861
00:50:23,188 --> 00:50:25,857
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
Shocked. Uh…
862
00:50:26,483 --> 00:50:27,525
Panicked.
863
00:50:28,401 --> 00:50:29,694
And, uh…
864
00:50:30,862 --> 00:50:32,322
very sorry that it happened
865
00:50:32,405 --> 00:50:35,992
because I had no intention
of anything like that happening.
866
00:50:36,076 --> 00:50:38,119
[Wendy] How'd you know he was dead?
You check his pulse?
867
00:50:38,203 --> 00:50:39,496
[Jeffrey] I was afraid. No.
868
00:50:40,330 --> 00:50:42,874
And there was blood
coming out of the mouth.
869
00:50:43,458 --> 00:50:47,921
Apparently, I had beaten him
with my fists on the chest.
870
00:50:50,799 --> 00:50:54,302
There's blood everywhere.
He said he was in an alcoholic blackout.
871
00:50:56,096 --> 00:50:57,639
It was a surprise to him.
872
00:50:58,765 --> 00:51:01,768
So there wasn't an actual intent.
It wasn't a fantasy.
873
00:51:02,936 --> 00:51:05,480
But what his deepest desire was
still came out.
874
00:51:08,108 --> 00:51:09,651
[Berlin] It's clear he hadn't planned it
875
00:51:09,734 --> 00:51:12,028
because he signed into the hotel
for one day,
876
00:51:12,112 --> 00:51:16,074
and he had to sign in for a second day
to buy some time to get rid of the body.
877
00:51:17,742 --> 00:51:20,578
[Boyle] He went out
and went to a luggage store,
878
00:51:20,662 --> 00:51:23,706
and got a big trunk,
and brought it into the hotel.
879
00:51:24,707 --> 00:51:28,128
And he took the trunk up to his room
880
00:51:28,211 --> 00:51:31,381
and got Mr. Tuomi into the trunk.
881
00:51:31,464 --> 00:51:34,509
He then had a cab driver
come and pick him up.
882
00:51:40,515 --> 00:51:42,475
Dahmer said the cab driver even said,
883
00:51:42,559 --> 00:51:45,353
"You must have a dead body in here."
The case was so heavy.
884
00:51:46,688 --> 00:51:50,483
He then took Steven Tuomi's body
back to the grandmother's house
885
00:51:51,109 --> 00:51:53,236
and secretly disposed of his body.
886
00:51:54,487 --> 00:51:57,323
[Wendy] He cut off the parts of the body,
put it into Hefty bags,
887
00:51:57,407 --> 00:51:58,867
and threw it in the dumpster.
888
00:51:58,950 --> 00:52:00,577
[eerie music playing]
889
00:52:04,998 --> 00:52:06,749
[tape rolling]
890
00:52:11,087 --> 00:52:13,214
[reporter] Tuomi grew up
in Michigan's Upper Peninsula,
891
00:52:13,298 --> 00:52:16,634
in the small town of Ontonagon,
where most everyone knew him.
892
00:52:16,718 --> 00:52:20,180
And he was a real quiet kid,
and that's how I knew him.
893
00:52:20,263 --> 00:52:22,682
He was real quiet
and never bothered anybody.
894
00:52:22,765 --> 00:52:27,020
Steven Tuomi moved to Milwaukee
sometime in the mid-1980s
895
00:52:27,103 --> 00:52:29,689
and took up working as a short-order cook.
896
00:52:29,772 --> 00:52:33,693
The last time anyone saw him
was in the fall of 1987.
897
00:52:34,736 --> 00:52:38,364
[Kenneth Meuler] After his confession,
I believed what Dahmer said
898
00:52:38,448 --> 00:52:42,076
because he had no reason
not to tell us the truth.
899
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,288
He had no reason to tell us
that was a victim that he killed,
900
00:52:45,371 --> 00:52:49,375
because that was one of the victims
that we had a little evidence of.
901
00:52:49,459 --> 00:52:53,463
It was Dahmer's statement
and putting together in great detail.
902
00:52:54,255 --> 00:52:58,509
There's no reason not to believe
factual information that Dahmer gave us.
903
00:52:59,302 --> 00:53:03,389
After his confession,
I met with the family in Upper Michigan.
904
00:53:04,933 --> 00:53:09,812
Their son went down to Milwaukee
to get work in a more urban area.
905
00:53:09,896 --> 00:53:13,483
To try to find out
what he wanted to do with his life.
906
00:53:13,566 --> 00:53:15,068
The family never sees him again.
907
00:53:17,612 --> 00:53:20,907
And I think they had
a very difficult time accepting it.
908
00:53:23,243 --> 00:53:26,788
[Wendy playing from recorder] How did you
feel after that time at the Ambassador?
909
00:53:27,580 --> 00:53:28,623
[Jeffrey] Horrified…
910
00:53:29,666 --> 00:53:32,085
that it started again, you know.
911
00:53:32,168 --> 00:53:36,381
And I never wanted to have
anything like that ever happen again.
912
00:53:37,048 --> 00:53:41,052
[Wendy] How did you feel that it came
forth even though you were unconscious?
913
00:53:42,053 --> 00:53:44,264
[Jeffrey] Uh, confused.
914
00:53:45,431 --> 00:53:47,809
[Wendy] Did you feel
you'd started to lose control?
915
00:53:47,892 --> 00:53:49,477
[Jeffrey] Yeah, I knew I had. Yeah.
916
00:53:51,562 --> 00:53:54,649
That was the first slaying here.
It went from 1978,
917
00:53:54,732 --> 00:53:57,652
the slaying of Steven Hicks,
to November of 1987,
918
00:53:57,735 --> 00:53:59,445
the slaying of Steven Tuomi.
919
00:53:59,529 --> 00:54:02,782
The first killing had been
by the time when he was 18 years old.
920
00:54:03,825 --> 00:54:06,077
He then went for nine years
without killing.
921
00:54:06,661 --> 00:54:09,163
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
The Ambassador did something..
922
00:54:09,247 --> 00:54:10,790
It triggered something
923
00:54:12,583 --> 00:54:14,335
I wanted more.
924
00:54:14,419 --> 00:54:17,547
I don't know what it triggered,
but it triggered something.
925
00:54:17,630 --> 00:54:20,717
The Tuomi murder
was a turning point for him.
926
00:54:21,467 --> 00:54:25,346
He finally decided,
"I'm losing this fight with myself."
927
00:54:25,430 --> 00:54:27,307
"I can't control it any longer."
928
00:54:27,390 --> 00:54:30,393
[Jeffrey playing from recorder]
It just gave me a sick pleasure.
929
00:54:30,476 --> 00:54:33,646
It dominated my thoughts,
doing these things.
930
00:54:35,356 --> 00:54:38,985
The danger could be someone who looks
just like your next door neighbor.
931
00:54:39,068 --> 00:54:43,364
He passed on the street
as a very normal person.
932
00:54:43,448 --> 00:54:45,325
He didn't look scary.
933
00:54:45,408 --> 00:54:47,952
[Mccann] There's a serial slayer
in Milwaukee.
934
00:54:48,036 --> 00:54:50,163
No one except Dahmer
935
00:54:50,246 --> 00:54:53,958
knew that a serial slayer
was loose in our city.
936
00:54:54,042 --> 00:54:57,587
The police just didn't know.
Nobody in the community knew.
937
00:54:58,338 --> 00:55:01,924
[Berlin] After years of trying
to resist these urges, he just gave up.
938
00:55:02,008 --> 00:55:05,470
Became like a killing machine
who was totally out of control.
939
00:55:06,054 --> 00:55:09,265
[Jeffrey from recorder] The compulsion
was stronger than any… anything else.
940
00:55:12,185 --> 00:55:15,480
It was a single-minded, driving force.
941
00:55:17,023 --> 00:55:17,982
My…
942
00:55:18,566 --> 00:55:20,526
desires, uh, were
943
00:55:21,569 --> 00:55:23,196
bestial, obviously.
944
00:55:23,279 --> 00:55:24,155
[scoffs]
945
00:55:24,864 --> 00:55:30,912
[eerie music swells, fades]
946
00:55:30,995 --> 00:55:32,914
[somber music playing]